I started posting under the 'new forum for WAS' thread.
Here's is my first post.
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Hi
I am a Walk-away Wife. I am 43, he is 46. I have been emotionally separated from my husband of 22 years for about 3 years and physically for a year.
At the time I left him him, he was a work-aholic, angry, verbally abusive, starting physical abuse (towards me only) man. I did not leave for another man, I left so there could be a 'me' to continue living, to continue being a 'mom' to our kids, to be a daughter to my parents, and friend to my friends. That person was in danger of disappearing emotionally & with the abuse escalating, disappearing physically.
I have low self-esteem from being raised by 2 OCD parents, as the oldest child, perfectionistic tendancies run deep in me, which were compounded by my parents unrealistic expectations & low tolerance for failure. I self-silence my needs & emotions, because of lack of trust in those I love to meet them for me, & belief that 'how could I possibly be worth it?' I understand that about myself & have been working on it in counseling for over a year and a half now.
My husband & I were HS sweethearts, each others 'first & only' and we were engaged by ages 19/22 & married by 20/23. At the time we were each others best friend.
I am pursuing a graduate degree at a university multiple hours away and working a full-time job which provides most of the day-to-day family living expenses and the all important health insurance.
His '75hour a week job' is part-owner in and managing the family-owned business, in which we have most of our savings & investments (outside my job-related retirement account). He has no steady income that comes to the family, as what is made from the business is reinvested back into it in order to make it grow. When extra expenses (vacations, car repairs, etc) arise, the business covers them. We do not own our own home, it is part of the family business that we rent it from, that part which is still owned by other members of his his family.
We have two kids early & late teens. One is leaving for college this fall. While not happy about the situation, they want happiness for both of their parents & hope that we can find it. The oldest understand both of his parents well enough to see the issues we both bring to the table & why this relationship is rocky. He understands his fathers abuse as he too has bore the brunt of the words from when he was little on. He understands my perfectionism, as he has bore the brunt of that from me as well. He is supportive of both of us, without being too judgemental, too often towards either of us.
The youngest is sad, but as she said early in the separation, she sees more of her dad now then when we were 'married'. That broke my heart & I am sure his as well. But as they say, from the mouths of babes.
I have been on DB since before I left in June of 2007. We did marriage counseling for 4 months, but when he continued to choose the job over going to counseling, I quit. He never did any DB'ing, when I first left.
In fact he did just the opposite, everything DB'ing tells you not to do. He called my friends and told them lies about why I left, he called me at all hours of the day & night, tried getting into my house, kept swinging between angry & despair, then dumping those feelings onto me & not taking any responsibility for the situation at all. It did exactly what they say it does.. pushed me even further away even faster.
In the past 6 months, we have begun talking and communicating better than we have in 20 years, if ever. I will try to answer questions that are asked respectfully, to share as best I can what is working for us and the things that changed for both of us, in order for this to occur.
We are still separated physically, although we see each other almost daily and talk on the phone multiple times a day.
I will not tolerate flamers or those who want to take me to task for being the WAW. You have not walked a mile in my shoes. If you feel the need to have someone to take your anger about your situation out on, look in the mirror and tell it to them.
As I said earlier, I will try as best I can to answer respectful questions to share a perspective from a WAS viewpoint.
2nd posting
Defining the 4 stages of Divorce Busting
Hi,
I am a WAW who has been working alternative paths (besides DB) trying to work back to a relationship of some sort with H.
I am not through all my emotions of Stage One, nor is he, but we are in a place where most of the time, we can listen to the other one and it is safe to share.
We see each other almost daily, by choice, not because of custody arrangements, and talk multiple times a day on the phone.
We were once best friends & I miss that part of the relationship.
My problem is: he wants total committment to work on the MARRIAGE before he will commit to working on building back my trust and love for him. It's like he wants to go from stage 1.5 or early 2 directly to 4.
He says he loves me and there is no need for romance, that it would be fake & denying our history. That you can not be 1/2 pregnant. Either I am working on this relationship to be married or I'm not.
I am frustrated with this situation, which pushes me back to stage one, to the point at which I think I would be better just keeping things at stage 2 and filing for divorce, which he has suggested.
Thanks for listening.
3rd posting
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Have done the 5 love languages, as well as some more specific things for relationships that suffer because of anger. while it provided some insight & some more changes that were good for both of us individually and for our interactions.... he uses that to 'make his point'. "Chapman says this is for couples, we need to be a couple first"
He knows he only pushing me away right now. I have told him why.
He wants a recommitment to work on things before we can be friends or romantics. He is afraid of putting too much of himself into the friendship/romance just to find out it's not going to work out after all. He wants the guarentee that if he becomes friends with me, that I'll move back in, be the 'wife' again, etc. etc.
I told him that makes no sense to me.. how can I commit to someone that I don't know if it fits? Let's see if our changes we are making to ourselves fit for the other person enough to even want to take it to the next level.
Because he loves me no matter what, he doesn't see the need to do that. I do. I feel we are at an impasse.
My next post
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I think buying him a copy of DR might be a good idea. Also Getting Back Together.
I will look into these two books if they are audio, he does not prefer reading. I have not seen them. He has listened to the things I have recommended to him, Chapmans books on the 5 love languages: for men, for apologies, for teens, for anger. a few on co-dependency, Mars/venus, etc.
What is his definition of recommitment? Is he pushing for you two to live together? Have you gone on any dates - by not wanting to romance you, does that include not wanting to go on dates (and if so, if he really dumb enough to believe he never ever has to take his W out once he is M??? \:D)?
That I am 100% committed to moving back in, going back to counseling (to help me see the light), and the iron ball & chain of marriage is clamped onto my ankle (just joking on the last one).
and no he rarely would take me out.. I took him out. I begged & pleaded for him to come home early (6pm) from work, please get clean up (his job is messy), I called the baby-sitter (he hates talking on the phone), I made the reservations (he didn't care.. "whatever, wherever, just tell me where to be & hopefully I can work the time off to be there"). Every other year he would plan our anniversary getaway.. that was his concession to 'romance'.
Have you thought about starting your own thread to get more feedback?
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And here I am :-)
next posting
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hi again, just a last check in before trying to do that sleep thing. \:\)
Great ideas. I will ponder them as I have a lot of drive time this week.
The move back in by date feels weird to me as well, I want to move back in (or invite him to move in here) not because of a date on a calendar, but because of actions we have both taken to make a safe, respectful, caring environment for a relationship to continue to grow.
As far as his perspective, I know exactly what you mean.. it can be very different and eye opening if one takes the time to really listen and see it from the other perspective.
I know he would tell you he is very very scared of being left again. His biggest fear is losing me and never being part of my life again. I heard it repeatedly when we were dating & early in the marriage. He never felt worthy of 'winning me'. So I know that my leaving has ripped at his worse fear and his reaction to that is wanting the guarentee to hold me to my promise of 'committment' to the marriage.
Yes, the ball & chain was partially a joke... I do NOT want what it was to me before. So when I view it as it was, I see it as a ball & chain. I need to change my view point of how it could be for he & I to quit viewing it as only what it was. I am finding it difficult to do so, as until I can replace it with other images, feelings, & thoughts, until we are close enough to allow that to happen, how does it happen? I feel it is a catch-22 for me right now. That is my problem to work on.
& on we go..
sorry if this is disconnected for the readers... i posted all over the place when I first got here.
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You hit the nail on the head. I can talk sweetness onto a lollpop. I have always, always had a problem following through. I should have been a politician..lol
Actually there in lies a big problem for me reconciling with my H. He rarely did what he said. I came to learn that I could not trust him, count on him for much of anything.
That is why any changes I have been seeing from him have had to be visible, palatable changes that are repeated many times, in many different forms, in many different circumstances, before I would risk more with him.
When he would slip up, I would retreat, the walls would come up, the defenses were at full mast. When he could make good on what he said, then I would relax, I could smile, feel safer, be willing to 'talk'.
The WAW's rollercoaster of emotions that everyone talks about on here is a real phenomena for many reasons.... ONE of which is that my reaction & subsequent feelings was based on to his ability or inability to follow through on what he would say he would/could/should do. I semi-jokingly would tell my friends, how my day was depended on which "H" showed up that day.
He himself has said, that doing what he says, not just saying what he will do (or thinks he did) has helped him keep honest with his principles (something from Covey? I think) making him feel better about himself and I think, less angry.
Just another perspective on this from the other side of the fence.
next
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Trust is a hard thing to earn after it has been violated many times. That is what I hear your wife saying you did. She looked for you to step up, counted on you for support & time in various situations & you didn't come through.
Now that you see it through her eyes you can see how much it hurts.
It took 5 months for my LBS to even acknowledge his role in violating the 'intimate trust' we had built in our R. Until he could recognize his role in this, convey it in a way I could "hear" (multiple times actually) and apologize for it in a way that was meaningful to me, I was not ready to even consider trusting him.
Patience, not being pushy, kind, 'quietly present', doing a 180 especially in areas of her 'love language' (great book highly recommend it).
when there are opportunities to apologize for your role in this, do so in a way that means something to her (5 languages of apology..also highly recommended). HOWEVER.. do not just dump this on her. I know it is tricky when you are DB'ing & they recommend no R talk, but acknowledging your past actions & how you are taking responsibility for them are not necessarily "us" & "R" talk.
If you feel at ANY TIME you can not be true to your level of support you want to give her or acting in a way that will build trust. You need to put the phone down, walk away, shut your mouth. Any little rebuilt trust is fragile, tender, & needing close caretaking to allow it to continue to grow. It takes very very little to damage it and you will need to start almost from square one.
Years were spent destroying that intimate trust the two of you developed, it will not come back in a few days/weeks or possibly even months.
Peace to you.
next
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Hi Sandi2
Thanks for checking... a good week-end with H this week-end. I surprised him with tickets to a comedy club Friday night, it was relaxing, no R talk, just laughs & a couple drinks. Conversation was light and all in all a good night.
He agreed today to go back to counseling without pushing the "we have to be married first" issue. But working as friends on communication and emotional safety.
He was here this afternoon (to take DD to a movied) and actually suggested he vacuum up the dog hair in the sunroom, without prompting from me, stepped up and 'parented' our daughter who was being 'snippy' with me about doing dishes. Both of which were rarely done pre-WA.
I noted my appreciation with a friendly one-armed hug and smile & that I noticed his changes, and that I appreciated it very much.
But as I noted in one posting a while back last week... it depends on which H shows up. Consistancy & regularity... we'll see.
thanks!
next
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hi lodo
well.. it's been many many years since our first attraction he was 16 & I was 14. He had a nice a$$ \:\) Hours on the phone when he went off to college (back when there was no 'unlimited long distance'), real love letters (not email),..
I'm not trying to "recapture" as what we built on was the immature puppy love of teenagers both grasping for something each of us were lacking growing up.
I am working on my trust issues from childhood that living with someone who had anger issues compounded. He was working on his anger issues that living with someone who has trust issues compounded. Together we need to work on our communication skills....
Before I can trust him enough to talk about hopes, dreams & fantasies we need to connect emotionally, before that can happen we need to communicate more effectively.. to do that we need help from a counselor who is not 'pushing' me to commit to a marriage first.
I have found the name of 3 counselors within an hour & half drive distance that have good reputations for solution-based counseling, that also specialize in communication skills & conflicct resolution training.
That is how I have started the ball rolling.
next
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Good for you sooners... glad to hear you are happy with your changes. Yes we, WAS, do have self-conflict.
I 'put up with it' for 22 years what was one more day? Could have I done it 'one more day'? Well, that day, I could not.
Are there days I look at the changes both he & I have made and think "this would have been a REALLY good day, back then". But I do not want to go "back". And for my new standards of what I will accept for me in a R with anyone, there needs to be more.. as he said he is not enough, yet, nor am I.
Hopefully these changes can keep being consistent & regular, until they 'are you' with God's grace, love & support in your life.
Peace
In response to this post
Smartcookie-
Look inside one wife , who's trying not to walk I think this should be required reading for LBS.
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Hi Smartcookie,
I have been reading your posts for a while now & FG's responses to you and then yours back. It has been entertaining to see the interaction between the two of you, read the wisdom from both sides and the insights gained by me in doing so.
I have wept reading your story as yours could be mine, except I walked away. I thought, finally someone on these boards that understands what it means to be in my shoes and this post sums it up for me totally.
Thank you for your articulation of WAW's POV. I agree this should be a sticky for those LBS to read when trying to 180 and LRT and GAL and every other DB technique they read about here. They need to DB with this perspective in mind.
From one WAW to another almost WAW, thank you again for your words & insight into 'us'.
Peace to you.
the next posts are between a LBS Lodo & myself. I'm going to add his into these so they make sense to the reader as I refer to questions he asks in my response. Hope that is ok Lodo? If not I'll go back & edit out.
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Hi Lodo,
Thanks for the kind words. I wish it was so easy with my H & me. But if it was I guess I would not be here now would I?
I remember reading another WAS's postings I think it was smartcookie and crying (& until lately, I have not been a cryer)because she so wonderfully articulated my feelings & thoughts in a way that I wish my H could hear how it was & still sometimes is to me.
I guess we get different things from different people's postings. Some of yours give me hope that people can see their role in the breakdown of the marriage and truly take responsibility for their part of the separation by making changes that are true to their values & beliefs.
I keep wondering though, even when LBS & WAW finally talk it all out, give it (the new "R") more chances... is there such a thing as incompatability.. or does the DB philosophy believe that once compatible (that's why you got married right?) always compatible?
Can I love him as a person, be his friend, and still not find enough things in common for values, recreation, intellectual pursuits, work habits, parenting, money matters, etc. for it to 'work' as a life-partner?
I remember my IC asking at one time.. if you were sitting across the table from him over dinner, would he be someone you'd want to have ask you out for a 2nd date? And my immediate and intense reactions was 'hell, no', I'm not even sure why I'd be on the first one.
Has he changed, yes he most definately has changed. Do I believe the changes are for him... some of them, yes. Others, no. I see him saying.. look at what I did or what I am, and then as you so clearly put in another post, gawking at me to see if I noticed.
uggg.. maybe I should start my own thread. I am finding my self getting long winded about my sitch are here a lot.
Thanks for listening.
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Hi Bridgestone,
I've been affected by smartcookie as well.
I keep wondering the same thing about WAW & LBS. In my particular sitch, my W is determined to get D - I'm a "wonderful person and we connect on many levels" but she doesn't think she can be the person for me. What does that mean? That she's changed. That marriage for her is different than what she thinks it is for me.
A long-term relationship is a compromise and I don't think we truly appreciate what that means. It's really hard. It's accepting someone for who they are and knowing that there are things you'll never like in them. Are those things big enough to throw the whole thing away? I think my W is currently saying "yes," but will those things still seem so huge when she starts trying with someone else? Only time will tell. My W and I are basically compatible, we have a solid friendship, and we communicate well. She asked me if that was enough to sustain a relationship. I think yes, she thinks no. What would you say? It's hard for me to see basing a long-term R on anything else and I don't see Rs as being self-sustaining. I think my W thinks they need to be more self-sustaining - those things in common should just come naturally. I think you have to work at involving each other. Both of you. Working hard.
Parts of people who are compatible will always be compatible, I think, and parts won't be. You can concentrate and work on the parts that are compatible, or decide too much has changed. I commend you for concentrating on the parts that work. You have to do that to figure it out. I wish my W was willing to do the same.
And the gawking, yes, us guys are really good at that. We aren't so good at being subtle, so when something is bothering us we want to change it as fast as possible. I recognize that changes I made 4 months ago have slid away, so I guess you're smart to be wary. But I'm glad that, unlike my W, you continue to engage him and give feedback about his changes. One question I have, though, is if the burden of proof should all be on him. Relationships take two, so are there changes you should be making to be more accepting of who he is? Would transcending the present turmoil and reaching a place of comfort that will never be as exciting as new love - is that worth the compromise?
I guess I'm divided about all of this. I tried going dark to move on but emailed W yesterday. I am who I am - a nice person who can't play games and I miss her. I miss her conversation and deep down I know she misses mine even though she's trying hard to put it out of her mind and heart.
Have I done enough to show her someone who "gets it"? Obviously not. Should I keep trying? I don't know. I'd decided there was nothing more I could do and I deserve someone who would be there for me as much as I've been there for them (my W has always been focused on her self & career), so was ready to move on. Then I re-read various posts and DR about truly being patient, knowing when you have no more to give, etc. and have been going back and forth. Should I be friends with W or go dark to separate emotionally? Should I keep trying with blind determination or move on? Of course my sitch has the added complication of OM and I don't know how big that wrench is, but I see similar things in your postings that address my inner struggles. Is this how you feel as well? grasshopper posted that the LBS can be as much a WAS as the WAS - I guess that has stuck with me these last few weeks but I don't know what to do with the info.
Sorry for the rambling. Hope you have a great day!
lodo
almost done (for now
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Hi Lodo
I'm listening, but a bit distracted today as my major professor needs for a summer class are pressing, the weather here is a major concern, and I have two hour drive each way today to get to campus to deal with the summer class issues.
I'll re-read this right before I leave and then ponder your thoughts & questions on my drive. I'll check in later tonight.
Right now I can tell you that you & my H have said the same thing about how the R could be enough... best friends with sex is how he defines what is enough for him to be in a marriage relationship. Is that what I'm hearing you say is enough for you?
I don't agree with that. Maybe women & men define best friends differently, I don't know about that. I need to think about that and your question about being more accepting of who he is.
Have a good day.
Thanks for the thoughts.
Hey bridgestone,
what are you studying? I'm working on a master's and have to do the summer school thing too.
I didn't mean to indicate that best friends with sex is enough. I think the best friends part is what carries you through those periods of losing other connections and hopefully sustains you while you start reconnecting in other ways. But those reconnections are vital. How they happen is tricky, though, and I guess that's where I was heading.
For instance, my W was annoyed because I stopped being enthusiastic about going to parties. But the parties she always wanted to go to were with her colleagues who only talk about their work. I tend to be somewhat shy at first in social settings, so had a hard time mixing and she'd never stay with me and help me mingle. So it wasn't enjoyable for me. I liked the people, though, and enjoy going to parties.
So how to reconnect on doing things socially in that situation? Both of us would have to give something because it won't happen naturally - I'm not in her field and she doesn't have my shyness. But if we made an effort to understand what each other needed and then tried to meet those needs, it'd work.
So not sure if that's a good example of what I was thinking or not, but no, best friends with sex isn't enough. You need to meet each others needs. But I don't think that comes naturally - I think you need to work on it and communicate with each other about what those needs are, how they can be met, and how far you're willing to compromise so that the other can realistically meet them.
lodo
PS - one other question. In my sitch, I'm in a master's program and W reinstated into a PhD program. So times were pretty intense at our house. 9 years ago she started a master's and broke up with me 3 months later saying she didn't think we had enough in common. Last fall, 3 months after starting her PhD, she moved out saying we didn't have enough in common. Since you're in school yourself, how much do you think the new experiences and pressures of school add to the dissatisfaction at home?
last one
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hi,
thanks for explaining a bit more what you meant.
I agree that compromise is important. communication is vital about those needs & how important those needs are, is it a 10? or a 2? on a scale of 1-10.
H & I are very different about what are our MC called our absolutes. That became abundantly clear in counseling. We never made it to the compromise part or even understanding of mine, for various reasons.
I am in a PhD program for the past 7 years and yes it added pressures that played many roles directly and indirectly in our splitting.
Misunderstandings of what I needed for support when trying to complete dissertation resesarch with a full-time job, 2 teen-agers, a 2 hour commute, a spouse with an 80 hour a week job, and a major professor who is certifiably nuts became rampant in the relationship and his anger intensified because I was not meeting his needs the way I used to. I changed the rules of the game, he did not like the realities of what he agreed to do when I went back to school.
I will now lose my job because I did not finish my PhD in time to keep it. It needed to be done by this August, it will be done by December. There is much bitterness over that.
There are not many jobs in my area that can use people with my experience & education level. Moving to where those jobs are means moving my D. away from her Dad or me away from her. I'm not ready to make that choice yet.
As a plaque above my kitchen sink says.. it is what it is.
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Oh bridgestone. I've gotta tell you how much your post hurts. In so many different ways. I'm supposed to be preparing for a presentation tonight, but had to stop and respond to this.
Communication? On a scale of 1-10, communicating needs is 10, but I think we're guilty of always letting it slide. Saying "I won't rock the boat over it this time", but those times build up and then it's too late. The saying "never go to bed angry" is pretty much the truth - I'd rather stay up all night and figure out the compromise then let it build up.
Your absolutes? Not sure what that might be - can you give an example? If your husband never understood yours, is he trying to now? If so, is he doing a good job or a crappy job?
Your description of the program is what tore me apart. I work at a university and see so many of these situations play out. You'd think I would've appreciated my own, but no.
My W tends to retreat when she gets busy, and rather than offer her support, I took offense. I didn't understand what the experience was like and I bet your husband didn't either. Even if he'd done his own PhD, it's different when you're in the experience.
And I'm sorry, but how the hell do you work on a PhD with a full-time job, 2 teenagers, a 2 hour commute, and a spouse who's never there?! That is craziness! My god, what have you been going through? And how have you survived?! With prof on top of everything you must have felt cornered and crushed at the same time.
So I have to admit that 9 years ago I wasn't supportive when my W changed the rules of the game after starting school. I didn't support her. And I suppose I didn't support her when she started her PhD, though I thought I was just giving her space. And I was pursuing my own grad degree work and thought she understood I needed support/understanding too. Anyway, that was the final straw. She slept with OM a month later. The kicker is that he is a major part of her thesis and if she wants to pursue the narrow field she's in, she'll be encountering him for the foreseeable future - my demand that she never contact him again fell on deaf ears since it threatened her career.
Is losing your job a for sure thing? We've had many students in the same position, but most of them have been able to work out a deal. If not, yes - you should feel bitter and I'd say you're justified. So then what happens?
You don't need to make the choice about moving yet, but I think you should eventually make the move. I've lived in a small community where the quality of life was high but job options were low and it drove me crazy after 10 years. Now I'm in a place where there are great job options and I can make enough to travel. Much better. I have friends, though, who are doing the opposite. So far they've made it work, but I can see the strain starting to accumulate.
Thanks for responding. I must say it is always nice to come across one of your posts. Take care, lodo
lol - you're going to lock your own thread before anyone else gets a chance to post!
Welcome to your own thread - I just got out of class & am hoping you're sleeping well and there are no storms rolling through.
lodo
Hi,
Finally a beautiful day here with sunshine, not rain clouds. I am headed out this afternoon with a GF to check out the flood damage.
I am feeling badly today as I was in a foul mood yesterday and said some hurtful things to H. I need to apologize for them, something I am terrible at.
I know this goes back to family of origin issues.
Logically understading my actions (or in this case inaction), does nothing (or very little) to stop the flood of negative emotions associated with shame and low-self esteem when I apologize & admit my actions were wrong.
I know what I would like for him to do when I apologize, things I think, would make it easier for me to ask for forgiveness in the future.
but based on past experiences with him when I open up & share, become vulnerable,it frequently comes back to bite me in the a$$.
He uses my shared desires, needs, feelings in a fight.. making fun of them, linking them to other failures, etc.
So I anticipate that if I share what I need from him when I apologize, he will use it against me at a later date. This freezes me, keeps me from sharing, being emotionally connected with him. And neither of us gets what we need.
ugg..
hi bridgestone,
Being with someone means snapping at them when you're in a foul mood and they need to understand that. That said, you should apologize, as much for yourself as for them.
But why can't you say what you're afraid of and what you'd like to hear when you apologize? "H, I overreacted yesterday because I was in a foul mood and distracted with other things. Please don't take what I said personally. I feel bad because this happened at a time when things are fragile between us, but it also scares me to apologize like this since I feel you haven't appreciated my vulnerability in doing so in the past. What would really help me would be if you responded in this manner, but I also need to understand how you're feeling right now. Can you tell me?"
I mean, that's off the top of my head and it's definitely headed down R-talk lane. It's vital to not have every single interaction be about R, but just be some relaxing, connecting times. But do you think that approach might work?
lodo
hi Lodo
I can do that. I can apologize I can even articulate what I need him to do when I do apologize.
I'm sure i would get forgiveness & even what I am looking for. TODAY.
However, I am scared, based on his past actions, even as recently as a week ago, that things shared with him that mean alot to me are ridiculed, put down, tied to other things that they are not meant to be tied to in an effort to deliberately (his word choice here) be mean & hurtful to me.
I think I am giving him ammunition to fire back at me in a fight later. Why would I do that? Being careful with shared intimacies does not mean being careful with them just in the moment they are shared. It means continuing to care for them at the moment you want to fling them against the wall.
That is what has been lacking from him. As a result, the things I do share are shattered, and I keep from sharing new ones. Not sure how to break this cycle.
Yep - it sucks to be vulnerable. To trust someone. I'd be scared too.
But that's communicating needs. Asking for what you want. So, what can you do about it? How can you make him understand?
Good question..
How can I "make" him understand?
When I ask him for this and he is in, what he calls, his 'good place'. I get sweet, caring, gentle postive affirmation for my needs being met. That gives me hope.
In the middle of an argument it is difficult.
If I call him on it, doing what he promised he wouldn't do, it is like throwing gasoline on a fire.
I know now, after talking with him about his reaction (gasoline on a fire) is that it is about him being angry with himself for letting me down, for failing to do as he said he would.
But the anger ends up directed at me, not at him.
Just thinking about it is enough for me to want to throw up my hands and say I give up.
However,
I did call him over lunch and apologize. I told him I had more to say and an empathetic request to make of him when I apologize in the future.
He accepted my apology and said he would like to hear what that was. He was distant, cool & did not apologize for any of his words or actions. That stings, I guess I can not make him to that any more than I can make him understand.
I told him I wanted to do this face-to-face and that it needed more time than the 3 minutes he had before he needed to go rushing back to work.
We are to go together to a friends birthday party tonight. I'm still on eggshells and feeling protective of 'me' since our argument yesterday.
I hope I can keep that 'edginess' from showing tonight. I want to have a good time... there's been too much loss & grief lately around here, recently & over time not to.
Need to think (and get ready for a 2:00 meeting). I'll respond to this later.
Good luck tonight! His response doesn't surprise me. It isn't very caring, nor does he appreciate the pain you're in. But he is hurting. He just doesn't understand the bigger picture. And I KNOW that's a crappy position for you to be in, because you're taking it all on and getting no respite.
How anger issues add into all this, I don't know - have never had to deal with that before.
I guess, focus on having a good time. Avoid R talk. Avoid anything unpleasant. Just say you want some time to make sure you two appreciate each other. I use the word "appreciate" because my W would say the same thing to me but use the word "understand" or "say the right thing," which comes across to someone on the defensive as negative.
Anyway, have fun! (and good luck)
lodo
I started posting under the 'new forum for WAS' thread.
Here's is my first post.
-------------
Hi
I am a Walk-away Wife. I am 43, he is 46. I have been emotionally separated from my husband of 22 years for about 3 years and physically for a year.
At the time I left him him, he was a work-aholic, angry, verbally abusive, starting physical abuse (towards me only) man. I did not leave for another man, I left so there could be a 'me' to continue living, to continue being a 'mom' to our kids, to be a daughter to my parents, and friend to my friends. That person was in danger of disappearing emotionally & with the abuse escalating, disappearing physically.
I have low self-esteem from being raised by 2 OCD parents, as the oldest child, perfectionistic tendancies run deep in me, which were compounded by my parents unrealistic expectations & low tolerance for failure. I self-silence my needs & emotions, because of lack of trust in those I love to meet them for me, & belief that 'how could I possibly be worth it?' I understand that about myself & have been working on it in counseling for over a year and a half now.
My husband & I were HS sweethearts, each others 'first & only' and we were engaged by ages 19/22 & married by 20/23. At the time we were each others best friend.
I am pursuing a graduate degree at a university multiple hours away and working a full-time job which provides most of the day-to-day family living expenses and the all important health insurance.
His '75hour a week job' is part-owner in and managing the family-owned business, in which we have most of our savings & investments (outside my job-related retirement account). He has no steady income that comes to the family, as what is made from the business is reinvested back into it in order to make it grow. When extra expenses (vacations, car repairs, etc) arise, the business covers them. We do not own our own home, it is part of the family business that we rent it from, that part which is still owned by other members of his his family.
We have two kids early & late teens. One is leaving for college this fall. While not happy about the situation, they want happiness for both of their parents & hope that we can find it. The oldest understand both of his parents well enough to see the issues we both bring to the table & why this relationship is rocky. He understands his fathers abuse as he too has bore the brunt of the words from when he was little on. He understands my perfectionism, as he has bore the brunt of that from me as well. He is supportive of both of us, without being too judgemental, too often towards either of us.
The youngest is sad, but as she said early in the separation, she sees more of her dad now then when we were 'married'. That broke my heart & I am sure his as well. But as they say, from the mouths of babes.
I have been on DB since before I left in June of 2007. We did marriage counseling for 4 months, but when he continued to choose the job over going to counseling, I quit. He never did any DB'ing, when I first left.
In fact he did just the opposite, everything DB'ing tells you not to do. He called my friends and told them lies about why I left, he called me at all hours of the day & night, tried getting into my house, kept swinging between angry & despair, then dumping those feelings onto me & not taking any responsibility for the situation at all. It did exactly what they say it does.. pushed me even further away even faster.
In the past 6 months, we have begun talking and communicating better than we have in 20 years, if ever. I will try to answer questions that are asked respectfully, to share as best I can what is working for us and the things that changed for both of us, in order for this to occur.
We are still separated physically, although we see each other almost daily and talk on the phone multiple times a day.
I will not tolerate flamers or those who want to take me to task for being the WAW. You have not walked a mile in my shoes. If you feel the need to have someone to take your anger about your situation out on, look in the mirror and tell it to them.
As I said earlier, I will try as best I can to answer respectful questions to share a perspective from a WAS viewpoint.
Wow Bridgestone, your relationship sounds alot like mine. My W and I were high school sweethearts as well, we started dating when I was 15 and she was 13. We have been together for 22 years, married 14.
Can you tell me when your anger started to let go? I gather from reading this post that you are open to reconcile if your H does make those changes needed, am I correct in this. My W and I have been S for almost 7 months now.
With our similarities in our sitch, can you tell me what a LBS should do in my shoes? Sometimes I feel that DB doesn't work for me, what worked for your H? Thanks.
Hi,
Okay - home from work and have some time to think.
First off, you can't "make" him do anything. He'll either rise to the occasion or he won't. As MWD says in various ways throughout DR, you can try different techniques to make sure you two aren't misunderstanding each other, but the best you can do is draw him towards a better of understanding of you, not make him go there.
His 'good place'? This sounds like it's tending towards something that might be treatable with medication. What does he mean by his good place and why does he call it that? Why isn't he always in his 'good place'?
If I call him on it, doing what he promised he wouldn't do, it is like throwing gasoline on a fire.
So now you know what not to do. It's great he tries to explain himself, but if you call him on his actions in the future are you expecting a different outcome? That's one of those cheeseless tunnels. I know - frustrating - but that's reality. And I don't buy his anger being about himself letting you down. That's him trying to justify it. IMO. Sure, he may feel self-recrimination later, but in the heat of the moment it's anger towards you.
I said earlier what I thought about his attitude on the phone. Unaware and hurting.
I told him I wanted to do this face-to-face and that it needed more time than the 3 minutes he had before he needed to go rushing back to work.
Did you really say that? The 3 minutes bit? If so, that seems like you were being a bit underhanded. If you feel something, you should say it, but making snide remarks never helps the situation.
Eggshells. I know that feeling. My W got angry when I finally admitted I was walking on them. She said she wanted me to let her know how I felt, the good, the bad, the indifferent, but never to walk on eggshells. That evening we almost got back together. Why didn't we? She left. Later, she said she didn't know why she did that, she guessed she wasn't good at sustaining relationships.
You HAVE to work towards that relaxed space. That's why I asked you early on what it'd take to stay up all night and talk about your dreams. So what would it take? Getting drunk? Being out in the woods? laying around after slathering oil all over each other and wrestling exuberantly? Just asking. It helps to think different.
I hope you had a great time at the party. I need to tell you something, though. First, I think it's great you're posting here and I really want to see you succeed - you're in an incredibly vulnerable position and you deserve so much sympathy, understanding, and support.
But talking with you is incredibly hard for me because in giving you advice I condemn myself. Reading what you write makes me realize everything I didn't do for my W, the misunderstandings I clung to, the ways I never offered support, the silly games I played to "show" I was hurt. What idiocy - why didn't I just say something? Yes, our sitches are different and my W has twice chosen to pursue OM rather than address what was really going on between us, doing so instead of even telling me she was unhappy. And yes, my W self-admittedly is focused on herself, is unwilling to compromise, and will always choose her vision of the future over a relationship. But we held it together for 12 years and we were really, really good together. The reason it is ending is not because she became attracted to another man. It's because I knew what I was to her - someone special that drew her out of the person she thought she had to be - and then I turned away and refused to support her. Over and over.
It's easy to offer advice, hard to take it. Anyway, thanks for listening. I hope you have a really good weekend. lodo
hi Lodo
I can do that. I can apologize I can even articulate what I need him to do when I do apologize.
I'm sure i would get forgiveness & even what I am looking for. TODAY.
However, I am scared, based on his past actions, even as recently as a week ago, that things shared with him that mean alot to me are ridiculed, put down, tied to other things that they are not meant to be tied to in an effort to deliberately (his word choice here) be mean & hurtful to me.
I think I am giving him ammunition to fire back at me in a fight later. Why would I do that? Being careful with shared intimacies does not mean being careful with them just in the moment they are shared. It means continuing to care for them at the moment you want to fling them against the wall.
That is what has been lacking from him. As a result, the things I do share are shattered, and I keep from sharing new ones. Not sure how to break this cycle.
Boy do I relate to what you're saying here. Keep posting. I'm learning from you too. Hugs.
This isn't exactly uplifting or cheery, but probably appropriate. It's by a poet I really like and thought you guys might be interested in her (though she can be pretty bitter) - Marge Piercy
Eating My Tail
There are times in my life to which I
return like a cat scratching, licking,
worrying at an old sore, a long since
exterminated nest of fleas behind my ear.
I seem sure that if I keep poking
and rubbing that old itch will finally
be quelled. Or is it a pre-eminent pattern I seek?
A mapmaker returning to the mountains
to pace out again the distances.
Of course, if the massacre had not
occurred in this pass, why would I care?
Some disasters alter the landscape
and realign even the roads driven
over years before. Yes, it is the bloody
moon of pain that gives a lurid
backlighting to this scene I peer at
suspended, a second pallid moon
beating my wings of anxiety silent
as a bat. Yet if pain gives portent
to the words spoken it denies entrance.
They sit at the table and eat. Wine
is poured, she gets up to bring
warm bread. Yellow apples are heaped
in an orange bowl whose sides reflect
candle flames. Telling a story, she takes
his hand. I know of course what she thinks
is happening and how wrong she is.
But if I opened his forehead, would I find
the violence and anger to come? Ah,
the past. It is turning out the pocket
of a jacket I wore in the garden: random
pencil nubs, plant ties, half a packet
of seeds never planted, a mummified
peach, herbs picked and forgotten -
a combination of intention and waste. Is how
it all fell down the meaning of that scene?
Yet they laugh heartily and the soup steams
and the golden apples shine like lumps of amber.
The present tears at the past as if living
were something the mind could ever hold
like water in a cup or a map in the hand.
Maps are abstractions useful for finding
whatever is actually entered on them.
Otherwise you just walk in. And through.
When you go back it's always someplace else.
His 'good place'? This sounds like it's tending towards something that might be treatable with medication. What does he mean by his good place and why does he call it that? Why isn't he always in his 'good place'?
Good question..
His good place is what I would call his 'conscious choice' of being quiet, careful, gentle, congnizant with what I share. He has been what I call 'oblivious' to my bids to have him truly listen in the past and as such, because of who he is naturally- brusque, introverted with limited emotional intelligence- he has to make an effort to put himself into a 'good, listening' mode. Otherwise it is 'habit' - unconsious action- of not really listening. Not something I think needs medication, just something that needs awareness and practice.
. And I don't buy his anger being about himself letting you down. That's him trying to justify it. IMO. Sure, he may feel self-recrimination later, but in the heat of the moment it's anger towards you.
This thought gives me pause.. can you explain this further please?
I told him I wanted to do this face-to-face and that it needed more time than the 3 minutes he had before he needed to go rushing back to work.
Did you really say that? The 3 minutes bit? If so, that seems like you were being a bit underhanded. If you feel something, you should say it, but making snide remarks never helps the situation.
No.. actually they were his words.. "i have 3 minutes before I need to get back to work, can you make this quick, I am really rushed today." I just was putting them together with my request.
You HAVE to work towards that relaxed space. That's why I asked you early on what it'd take to stay up all night and talk about your dreams. So what would it take? Getting drunk? Being out in the woods? laying around after slathering oil all over each other and wrestling exuberantly? Just asking. It helps to think different.
to ditch the emotional baggage with him that makes me fearful (my problem) and for him to consistently exhibit behaviors (words & actions) that would be reassuring and help build trust and safety needed for that level of emotional connectedness.
It is not about a place or one particular action (slathering oil & wrestling, although quite a tantalizing mental image!) It's about a feeling of being valued, cherished and safe, with no incrimination or patronization.
Getting those things from someone will not happen overnight. It may be easier with someone new as I don't have to overcome my negative connotations of what sharing with him means to me emotionally. It's like there is a negative balance in my trust/safety account with him. Probably with others too, but mostly with him.. He needs to do things, say things that reduces that negative balance and then builds it back to a positive level that allows the being drunk & oil slathering to make a difference.
But talking with you is incredibly hard for me because in giving you advice I condemn myself. Reading what you write makes me realize everything I didn't do for my W, the misunderstandings I clung to, the ways I never offered support, the silly games I played to "show" I was hurt. What idiocy - why didn't I just say something? ..... The reason it is ending is not because she became attracted to another man. It's because I knew what I was to her - someone special that drew her out of the person she thought she had to be - and then I turned away and refused to support her. Over and over.
I am sorry, that listening to me hurts so much. I imagine that it is much the same for my H. there is more for this but it is about me.. not about you. Making mistakes is the only way we really learn, especially some of the lifes hard lessons. It's regretful that learning your lesson about offering real support to a partner had to have the consequences that it did. I hope your wife can learn something about being a partner as well as she makes her life journey.
It's easy to offer advice, hard to take it. Anyway, thanks for listening. I hope you have a really good weekend. lodo
So far it has been good. I took your advice to ask him for some time together without the kids or others (as the party was) so we could "appreciate" each other. His job is really hectic right now as it is weather dependent which has not been cooperating in allowing the timeliness of getting various portions completed.
His work-a-holic behaviours has been a major sticking point in the past, and that type of asking would get me a whole litany of things that had to be done.
His response this time to my request was, that while he had these things to get done in the next 10 days (I was thinking oh-oh, here we go again.. same old, same old)
but he continued and said he would make his management decisions to get his work done with my request as his priority.. WOW.. that one blew me away, brought tears to my eyes... and yes he did, he followed through!!
He met me at my house when I got home from campus yesterday and took me out for beers & supper to let me blow off steam. He was a wonderful listener as well as partner in the conversation.. he had new things to add, insights, and empathy.
I was appreciative, there was physical touch while we were talking.. on his arm, smiles & laughter, and a good-night kiss as he dropped me off at the door. I kept telling him how much I appreciated his actions & words.. that they mattered & I was so happy that he showed me I was a priority.
I hope you have a good weekend as well. Sailing? Were those your plans?
ping,
let me read about your sitch a bit more.
But to answer a few of your questions.. I'm not sure I have let my anger be gone yet. I have given some of it different names...
bitterness, disappointment, hurt, sadness, betrayal, shame, patronized... each of those need to be dealt with individually.. some of them are taking longer than others.
I am righteously angry still, mostly about how his abusive langauge and work-a-holism has affected our children and their expecations of their future lives and parenthood (our son, who is 18, recently told me he does not want to have children).
Our 13 year old daughter shared when her & I were discussing her future plans, that she did not want to do too much college (beyond a BA) because it was too hard with kids, jobs, and all the chores that Mom's are expected to do.
Are those POV by my kids ONLY because of his actions, no.. however I believe, my POV, they play a large role in them.
Reading the 5 langauges of apology has helped me release some of these emotions & forgive him, ONCE he recognized his roles & repsonsibility. I'm not sure how long I would have hung onto the resentment if he had not taken responsibility. Probably a lot, lot longer.
i'm not sure yet, what I'm open to with H. Reconcile? Right now I'm working for friendship and I'm not shutting the door for his changes to make a difference to me. Baby-steps.
Thanks for stopping by my thread and sharing.
Good morning bridgestone!
Are you like smartcookie, smw, and I, doing schoolwork all weekend? Well, I did goof off for a bit yesterday to get some planting done - good option for procrastinating. The place I'm renting has a great patio but nothing was taken care of. That's okay - now I can create what I like rather than taking care of someone else's poor choices!
Now I understand what H's 'good place' is. This sounds like a common problem in men - I've seen descriptions similar to yours in other books, websites, etc. I wonder why we're such poor listeners. I always thought I was a good listener, but realize now that listening and comprehension are 2 different things. Even when I go back and read some of your posts, I understand the words in different ways. Awareness and practice are definitely needed.
And I don't buy his anger being about himself letting you down. That's him trying to justify it. IMO. Sure, he may feel self-recrimination later, but in the heat of the moment it's anger towards you.
This thought gives me pause.. can you explain this further please?
I don't know how his anger manifests itself, of course, so I could be completely wrong. But no one lashes out from a sense of self-recrimination. Anger is aggression. It is a sort of wishing harm on another person. Maybe there is underlying guilt that causes such a reaction, but IMO, if you react to criticism with anger over something you may feel guilty about, it is a form of blaming the other for your own inadequacies rather than facing them in the moment. If you faced them in the moment, you'd apologize, or discuss, not react and become defensive. "I'm trying, d*mnit!" doesn't mean, "I wish I were doing better," it means "why don't YOU appreciate me more." That's why anger management needs to be learned. But I don't know - things may be completely different in your sitch.
It is not about a place or one particular action (slathering oil & wrestling, although quite a tantalizing mental image!) It's about a feeling of being valued, cherished and safe, with no incrimination or patronization.
I know, but you have to start somewhere
Seriously, though, I think it's important to just try to relax sometimes. To connect - because that's what's needed to reach those feelings of being valued, cherished and safe - but to try to do so in a relaxed manner rather than constantly discussing it. Doesn't MWD bring up something about taking your clothes off and then trying to fight? That's what I mean - to change the dynamic so you aren't focusing so much on the emotional baggage and the fears but just on the moment. That's what would happen with someone new, right? You're just in the moment? I don't know - just brainstorming.
I am sorry, that listening to me hurts so much.
Now, now, you don't get to take on my stuff. Listening to you is great! Responding to you is hard because my opinions do not match what my actions have been. When I was upset over something with W, why didn't
I slather her with oil and make her feel special so that we could discuss the problem in a safe place? I can't answer that.
The workaholic thing is hard. That's great that he made an effort regarding work and then followed through. Sounds like that was a really positive experience - so happy for you
I was going to go sailing, but plans changed so I planted instead. And I have a proposal to write, a presentation to put together, and a paper to research. The life of someone trying to work and study at the same time ...
lodo
Good morning all,
A late night and early morning, not a good combination for me.
Am trying to finish a presentation for the online course I'm helping teach this summer. It is on a topic I'm not entirely comfortable with, nor am I familiar with the technology that allow me to create it so it can be online. It has been a slow process, but one that kept my mind occupied to help pass the time yesterday.
Went out to lunch upon H's last minute request yesterday. Tried to relax into the moment, take a page from the LBS manual and act 'as if', not chase cheeseless tunnels, and what do I get from H?
"What is wrong with you?" When I looked at him and could honestly say, "nothing" with out adding my usual Why? on the end, said with a smile & squeeze of his leg (as he sat next to me in the booth). He went quiet, and was withdrawn the rest of the lunch & ride back home. I kept up my people watching and running dialouge with S. about college & work, and with D about her favorite subject 're-decorating'. Trying to include him in the conversation, but he was withdrawn and really only engaging with the kids.
All in all it was a really OK day for me. Then he called around 11:30 last night and seemed (ok he was, not just seemed) really terse & short about 'dealing with Daughter.' over the next few days.
I tried to empathetically listen to his frustrations of parenting a teen age daughter in this particular situation. Which only seemed to frustrate him more.
He snapped at me, some back-handed remark about being not his choice that she was at his house & her friends were 20 minutes away (actually that is not true, as we agreed to send her to this school 20 minutes away almost 3 years ago, long before I left).
When I really didn't take the bait, which I took as his trying to guilt me about leaving him (this would have been something I would have handled pre-separation) and just said something about I can understand the difficulty in lining up social time for the kids when things are hectic in the adult side of life (I really can, I have done it for years). He grunted and said good night.
OK guys...can you give me a DAM interpretation of this behaviour & talk?
I have tried not to get to wrapped up in his outbursts of late, but when they revolve around the kids & impact their lives, I feel this is one area, we really need to communicate regardless of the outcome of the R.
OK>. I really need to get to work on this presentation again as I need to be on the road here shortly and the finishing touches need to go on.
Good morning,
Online classes are hard - at the university where I work, I used to transform regular classes into online courses. Don't get discouraged if you have problems - some people take to it, others don't. It's just a matter of your teaching style; some teachers can handle the lack of face-to-face, others require it.
That's good that you're trying different approaches - you have to see what might work that is different from what you normally do. But as MWD writes, the initial reaction might be negative and then turn positive a few days later, so give it time.
Sounds like he thought you were withdrawn - were you, or were you conversational? With him or focused on kids? I don't know - maybe he was expecting you to be more enthusiastic towards him after the weekend and if he felt you were on the cool side he might have been discouraged. But that's his own deal. Sounds like you were open and consistent.
His snapping at you was definitely frustration. Maybe next time he is annoyed about a joint decision, you could gently remind him that he was involved, something like "I guess we didn't think through all the ramifications when we made the decision 3 years ago."
Very good response re: the difficulty of handling social time for the kids! You didn't give him anything to argue with. You expressed support, reminded him you used to have to handle all of this, and stayed pleasant in the face of his reactions. He grunted because he had nowhere else to go.
I'd guess that he's feeling frustrated, maybe discouraged, not thinking he's making the correct steps to win you back, maybe feeling like you're not as involved as you should be? I know in my sitch, when W and I broke up 9 years ago, I felt she was very distant and would always place her schoolwork and associated activities above any opportunities we had to work on R. What a surprise to come across her journal from that period while I was packing up the house this past April. I looked and discovered she was all over the place and thinking of me constantly. I hadn't even had a clue she felt anything for me - I felt like she was really done.
You DO need to have very clear communication when kids are involved - work hard to make sure it's clear. And that's good that you avoid his outbursts. Be consistent. I'm sure he's all over the place emotionally and wanting things to change fast, but trust me, he needs to become consistent too.
lodo
Hi bridgestone,
was thinking a little more about your sitch on my ride in. One thing that I think helps is to define your goals a la MWD in DR. I'm assuming you've read the book - did you figure out your goals? I know you've shared, quite eloquently, the sort of big, overarching things you'd like to accomplish with H in order to reconcile. But what are the specific milestones that you'd see along the way to know that progress is being made? The very small, specific things that start to add up and lead to the big things?
Maybe writing those down and being able to refer back to them would be helpful to you at this point - help you judge where things stand and give you a next step to work towards.
lodo
hi bridgestone...i was wondering if you could check out my sitch and tell me what you think..ignore the venting from the last couple of days...been kinda rough...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1467735&page=1#Post1467735thanks in advance for your help!
Neil
The very small, specific things that start to add up and lead to the big things?
Maybe writing those down and being able to refer back to them would be helpful to you at this point - help you judge where things stand and give you a next step to work towards.
lodo
Hi lodo,
good thoughts..
Goal
1- When I feel my 'anxiousness' starting to rise as a result of my interactions with him, call a time out. 10 minutes to 24 hours, instead of falling back into old patterns of withdraw before being hurt.
2- Continue to try & be present in the moment, to find a way to say what's on my mind without assigning blame.
3- When "H" reacts to my saying what's on my mind in a negative way, let it slide off my back (be a duck).
4- Continue to provide positive feedback of what works for me, how it matters & why it matters. Decrease the amount of 'please don't do xyz"
Hi bridgestone,
Hope you had a great day. Thanks for the Bach.
Here are my thoughts:
#1 - I'd also think about what is causing the 'anxiousness'.
#2 - within reason of course.
#3 - I don't think I agree with this one. It's as natural for you to react as it is for him. So how do you make fighting and disagreement WORK for the M? Because it is healthy and can transport you to a better place.
#4 - Good!
These are all focused on you and the overarching things you were striving for all were focused on H. So, a disparity. Any thoughts on that?
lodo
these are some of the things I need to change for me so I can bring a more healthy person emotionally into ANY relationship. I am not happy with me enough to consider being in a R right now.
The overarching things are changes that H needs to make consistently & regularly enough for me to consider working on a long-term R. I can not change those things.. however, I would like it if he would. If he can not or choses not to, than it is what it is.
The way he & I interacted a year ago was not healthy enough for me to stay in the R we had. We have both changed, however, as I stated earlier, neither of us enough, yet.
I have not changed enough for me to be in any relationship or him, for me to consider being in a R with him even if I was 'healthy'.
Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes sense. I think my W and I are in the same exact spot. Difference is that she wants to deal with it by getting rid of everything in her life that doesn't have a direct bearing on her academic goals. Problem is, that's no way to live life. I really feel for her and want to show her a better way, but maybe I can't - I certainly didn't.
But, enough of me. So, I think goals should include both of you, since you evaluate H as well as yourself. You only have control over you, but you are looking at your H to see what he does. So what do you think those small, realistic steps are for H that you would like to see to get to the larger feelings of reconnecting?
I mean, ultimately you are here because you care enough about your M that you are open to working on things. That speaks volumes. But I think you need to consider the small stuff in order to not get frustrated. For your own sanity.
Who else do you like to read besides Bach? I went to the bookstore, BTW, and picked up a copy.
lodo
Hi Bridgestone,
Just a note to say I hope you're doing well. How's the writing going? I'm trying to put together my first presentation - giving it next weekend at a conference. I'm really nervous - how do you give a presentation on something you haven't fully researched yet?! I know I'll do fine, but it's still scary.
Is your yard dry enough to plant yet? I need to make a major investment to finish fixing up mine. Luckily I just got paid for the house - spend it on landscaping? Hmmm.... I also joined a community farm and went out to clear my plot. It's going to take a lot of work, so I'm just planting chilis for the summer, along with green manure, and then will put in a winter crop and double-dig the plot in proper fashion.
lodo
Hi Lodo
I am exhausted. about 2 hours of sleep last night after finally getting H off the phone & finishing my presentation for the online course.
I'm sure you'll be amazing at your conference. EVeryone there, if they are like mine, have been where you are. I love going to professional conferences.. they really charge me up & help keep me passionate about my profession.
Other things I read besides Bach, regularly? Nothing...
One thing I am looking forward to coming off this 7 years of grad work & diss research, reading for enjoyment.
I used to be a historical fiction reader... can't even remember the name of the author that did the Centennial series. I have enjoyed Jean Auel's clan of the cave bear series (much better than the movie) as the level of detail she puts into her novels is outstanding and the research she does to make sure of archeological detail is phenomenal.
The Harry Potter series, (except for the last one- which I am saving that for the beach & umbrella drinks when I am finally done!)
I guess that is about it... I will be interested to see if my reading tastes have changed at all in the past 7 years
I have been on my grad school campus 3 of the past 4 days for 10-12 hour days (remember it is 2 hours away, as well, so time home has been limited). I need to be back there again tomorrow and then am off with S18 to his college campus multi-states away Thursday/Friday/Saturday for his freshman registration/orientation.
So no planting of plants.. hopefully by the time I'm back on saturday afternoon I have rested enough to consider it & it has dried out enough.
Some other single women friends & I have purchased shares in an local organic garden coop. They plant, weed, harvest we get 1/40th of the crop each week, all season long. Of course, we pay them a flat subscription fee no matter how much or little crop they get.. so far it is much more 'little & late' than 'much & early' :-\
Spend it on the landscaping! A wonderfully landscpaed yard is to a house as a beautiful coat is to a person. It doesn't really change the clothes (house) underneath but it sure can make a great first impression!
I have spent time doing 'little' things at 'my' house (I rent, but I had the house bought for me by a friend, with the understanding I would buy it when the D was final) which gives me some modicum of control over something in my environment.
And right now that feels like very little! So a new light fixture & faucets in the bath or hostas, bleeding hearts & astibles in a new shade garden, while minimal for cost & WOW affect.. have really made a difference for my PMA.
I am falling asleep over the computer and have to be in up in 4.5 hours to start tomorrow and the trip all over again. Need to go to bed.
good night & hugs to you for your rough day yesterday.
Good morning bridgestone -
I know what you mean about reading. I used to read 3-4 books a month. Now I only read for pleasure when I'm on a plane and my laptop battery has died.
That's exciting that S18 is starting college! Is he going to a large university or a smaller college?
That's great that you belong to a coop. I am a member of a CSA (community support agriculture) out here. It's great getting a box of vegetables each week and then deciding how you're going to use them.
I'll definitely spend some on landscaping - it's going to take awhile though. I'm still trying to beat back the ivy.
Thanks for the hug - wasn't that rough, really. I just didn't expect it to be so emotional. It's hard for me to understand what she's thinking right now - why she wants to rely on our friendship, misses our connection, appreciates my changes, but is deadset against putting any energy into M and sees a R as a trap that will only limit her. Oh well.
Good luck with all your work. Forgot to mention - your first line about getting H off phone. That sounded a little stressful - I hope all is well.
lodo
Bridgestone:
First of all, I would like to thank you so much for putting the perspective of a WAW on this forum for us all to see. You are to be commended for your continued contact and efforts with your H...most WAWs (mine included) sanctimoniously cut off their x/stbx in a very cowardly and selfish fashion (usually involving an affair) under the guise of self-protection and "just wanting to be happy."
Your description (and that of SMARTCOOKIE) of a WAW's mental state are poignant and undoubtedly accurate in the vast majority of cases. The LBH's anger and hurt are just as real. The only way back is via FORGIVENESS...on BOTH SIDES. ACTIONS must be allowed to precede FEELINGS and actions are a CHOICE you can both make. Most WAWs are told this yet ignore it (mine certainly did, was told many times in C). They simply feel that "I have lost my feelings and can't get them back." While understandable, the opposite approach is futile...no one can recapture "good feelings" by avoiding personal contact and stubbornly maintaining an emotional wall while hoping to just magically "feel it" again first before doing something.
Many WAs will say "I would just rather be alone..." but this is a cop-out; most will (if they haven't already) find themselves soon in an EA/PA and usually with someone they would not ever consider being involved with (married, vast age, values, social differences) under "normal" circumstances. They will justify their betrayal of their own moral/ethical standards in any way possible to soothe the guilt and convince themselves that "this just feels soooo right". In the long run, they usually end up disappointed when the luster inevitably wears off.
Unless both parties in a M can honestly look themselves in a mirror, admit some fault and mistakes, and say "I'm so sorry" to their H/W, it remains a power struggle. Both sides hold back until the other "blinks" out of fear, vengeance, and distrust. It just seems to me that, unless one plans on being truly single the rest of one's life, he/she is going to HAVE TO TRUST AND OPEN UP to someone in the future...and the best person to roll the dice with is your x/stbx 95% of the time.
Hi Bridgestone, just popping in to check on you & give you a belated answer.
Bea doesn't mean anything, just cuter than "B". I guess I was in a silly mood when I typed BS. Or I'd had too much BS that day with H, or something.
How are you today ?
Hi Bridgestone,
I was thinking of you today - hope you're handling the workload okay. I'm drowning a bit; I'm worried about this presentation next weekend.
So I never followed up re: the job you might lose out on due to finishing the PhD later rather than sooner. Is that an absolute for sure thing? You have no room to negotiate?
lodo
Hi SC
thanks for checking in. Long trip with S18 to his college of choice for fall enrollment. Lots of emotions with this, but not as many as dropping him off in two months will bring.
I have done the best I could with him. He is a good chi-dult (child/adult), smart, a leader, involved in many things. Makes good choices, has good friends. but 10 hours away is so far. (sniff) I think part of that choice is to get away from what has become a difficult place for him to 'grow' and that makes me really sad.
I'm worried about this presentation next weekend.
Been there done that.. I'd be happy to listen about it.
so I never followed up re: the job you might lose out on due to finishing the PhD later rather than sooner. Is that an absolute for sure thing? You have no room to negotiate?
nope.. the negotiations are done, I got a 9 months extension (which is up in August). I will have this next year and then will need to leave. The benefits of working there are amazing- great salary (for what I do), health, tuition, dental, etc.
I am angry at myself and my LBS for various reasons on the outcomes of this. But being angry does no good, gives me hearburn & keeps me awake at night.
So I keep working on the diss and hope that a path becomes clear to me. The universe has something in mind for me, just not sure what that is yet.
Hope your few days have been good?
Hi bridgestone,
Thanks for the support. So are you offering to listen to my presentation? Maybe I should videotape it and put it on youtube - lol!
Actually, it'll be fine. My thesis includes a historical component that makes a great story, so I'm just going to tell the story for 10 minutes and then draw conclusions from it - ask questions (i.e. I haven't done the research!) and then hope no one else asks questions!
Sorry for the anger over the job sitch. I have to say, though, that if there isn't room for further negotiation, you probably don't want to be there anyway. Institutions that are more concerned with the rules than with honoring the proven performance of employees are too hard-nosed to be enjoyable for more than the short-term. I say that, of course, not knowing the specifics. One thing I've discovered throughout my life is that when you throw yourself into the void, the universe provides.
So I read your post to Lost. 12 months is a long time to waiver. Do you feel that this limbo period has done further damage or has it given you time to breathe and sort through your thoughts?
Hope it's dry where you are. We're sweltering - I hope the fog comes back soon.
lodo
Hi bridgestone,
Thanks for the support. So are you offering to listen to my presentation?
Most definately... how ever I can help. Grad students need to stick together!
So I read your post to Lost. 12 months is a long time to waiver. Do you feel that this limbo period has done further damage or has it given you time to breathe and sort through your thoughts?
well, the way I look at it, it was 6 months of getting the hell out of dodge, staying out of the line of fire for leaving (which is still causing rounds to be discharged), taking a breather from the overwhelming emotional & gut-wrenching decision to leave a marriage that had deteriorated into an abusive, energy-sapping, guilt-ridden, resentment driven co-existence. So in that sense.. that was a breather, a respite from the hell of the past year & even before that.
The past 6 months (since he finally went to individual counseling with someone that specializes in anger management) have been spent working on the dissertation with renewed vengence, watching him make changes and paying close attention to see how consistantly & reliably they fit for me & the kids, and mostly for him.
How trustworthy he is with the emotions & thoughts I share with him, and how he 'fits' me, since I (& I suppose he as well) have changed a great deal since we were married 22 years ago. Being, not only trustworthy in the moment but especially important for me, when he is angry or upset & tends to throw them (my shared intimacies) out in mean hurtful ways.
So in some respects if I were to be pushed for an answer today.. it would still be no, I want no part of a marriage with him, as we both are now. I am not ready to be in a relationship with anyone, and he has not changed enough for me to consider being in one, beyond friendship & parenting, with him. When I tell him that or even hear it myself it seems as if it does more damage.
Do I have hope given continued changes on both our parts that working together on a 'relationship' that goes beyond friendship & parenting, may be some place to be in a few months.. yes.
My fear however, is putting the time & energy into counseling, emotionally draining conversations, etc resulting in my lacking what I need to finish the diss.. so few people understand either of those components. One dear friend who finally went through some family counseling with her daughter, called me and told me she had no idea how draining counseling was and was so sorry she had not been around to support me in the early stages of our MC, now that she more fully understand what it was to do it.
It is draining.. as is making a psychotic major professor happy enough to sign off on a paper, that she has kept under her control for 4 years. Where do I put my time & energy?? I don't feel as if I have enough to do both. & of course, according to many (on here & in my 'real life') it's selfish of me to choose the diss...
Morning bridgestone,
Here I am writing to you instead of doing work, even after I got up early specifically to get things done. But what you said gave me pause.
In many ways I can imagine what you've written being written by my W. Our sitch is different in some very important ways: W & I get along well but I'd been depressed and withdrawn, she's strongly independent and focused on herself, and she'd become physically and then emotionally involved with someone playing a major part not only in her thesis work, but in the narrow field in which she wants to work.
But I think we also needed 6 months for the emotional upheaval to subside (though she didn't like being in limbo so started D). She also has been working on research with renewed vengeance, to the detriment of most other things. I imagine she sees my changes - she's definitely expressed interest in what I'm doing - but doesn't seem to want to try and balance things any more.
We've also changed, but I don't know if we've changed a great deal. I think we needed to be patient enough to ride out the bad times in order to reconnect and realize the things we DO share - though this is the door she won't open because I think it's the one that subconsciously scares her the most. I think she knows we'd probably reconnect and I don't think she wants anyone depending on her right now for attention or to balance her diss. work with the compromises needed in a relationship.
She definitely is still happy with the thought of being D. She'd say she's not ready to be in a R with anyone, that she's happy focusing on her own career and being with friends. When she tells me that, it does hurt - mainly because I think there should be an opportunity to reconnect. And I think she'd wholeheartedly agree that she doesn't want to put energy into things because that would mean less time for diss. This is also frustrating to me - extremely frustrating - and I've seen it happen to others.
The grad school experience is intense but it's still hard for me to see people put their degree work so far above their relationships. So as you predicted, I'd say it's selfish to focus on diss.
That said, I've seen many similar sitches play out and I know why people make the choices they do. A diss., after all, is important in many careers. And there really is no good way to handle the intense drain on your energy - maybe people need to make sure their R is in great shape before starting the process in order to make it through to the other side. I don't know.
My parents separated for 2 years while my step-mom went through counseling and tried to re-find what she needed in life (along with the energy to do what she needed to do). My dad showed patience and support throughout that time. I asked my W if she'd be willing to wait on D so I could show similar support and she wouldn't. It seems like you would/are. It sounds like it's up in the air whether your H is showing the patience and support that is needed.
So, it isn't fair to compare our sitches, but like I said, you gave me pause. Your words make me see parts of my sitch in a new way, though it still leads to frustration that I never got a chance.
Anyway, didn't mean to hijack your thread with my sitch but thanks for listening. Hope your day is good. And on those days when you're frustrated with your prof, just be glad you aren't my uncle. When he did his diss in science education, he was required to have 2 advisors - one in science and one in education. They refused to meet with each other and kept asking for changes contrary to what the other was wanting. Needless to say, it was a nightmare!
lodo
Hi,
It seems as if your reply is a bit different than one I remembered reading first thing this morning.
Unless my coffee addicted brain is playing tricks on me. Nothing majorly different, just some word changes.
I hear what you're saying in both the first one and in this one. I have heard them from H before.
Be warned.. listed below is a rant.. please let it be directed towards no one in particular, especially not at you.
It's hard to admit being selfish, he doesn't want to admit his actions of neglecting his marriage or children, by working to grow a multi-million dollar business was selfish on his part.
And I don't want to admit pursuing an advanced degree to the exclusion of a marriage is selfish on my part, but in reality they both were/are. Difference is I am admitting mine in the context of a separation, he reluctantly admits his in hindsight.
End result is,despite who is or was selfish, he has a multi-million dollar business & while I still do not have a PhD.
timing is everything.. I am literally at the do-it now or never stage with the dissertation. It has passed committee, I will collect data (again) this fall and write like a maniac over winter to defend in spring. If it doesn't happen now, it in all likelihood never will. I am not prepared to give up my dream of being able to be in this profession, I truly believe it is my calling, I know it is my passion.
I want my turn instead of just giving up my place in line so someone else.. him, my parents, my in-laws, my kids can have another piece of the resources- my time, energy, or support- I have to give in any given day. I want my resources for me for a change. I know I am the only one who can choose where they go & who gets them and I am choosing me & my kids.
I am asking a lot of him to 'keep making changes & I'll see if they work for me eventually'... that is a lot of anyone person. However, there is a part of me says.. tough sh#%. He didn't want to do what I needed in the moment, then this is the result of those choices for him.
Only he can decide if it is too much for him to do that. I decided it was too much for me to stay in the R as it was. He can decide if those conditions are too much for him to keep the separation as it is.
Rant ended..thanks for listening.
Hi,
Nope - I didn't make any changes. How much coffee are you drinking?
I agree - you should have the opportunity to pursue the degree and he should understand that. There is no difference between your focus on that and his focus on his company, IMO. Each individual should have the opportunity to pursue their interests and dreams and a relationship should support that. Of course, there will be problems along the way.
I think a lot of problems come down to communication style and therein lies the rub. If one person in a relationship thinks they've communicated their need and the other person doesn't respond to it - then tough sh*#. But to me communicating strong feelings means being explicit - "I need to have these things right now in this R or I'm walking out the door". You seem like a fairly straightforward communicator, so I'm guessing you communicated this and H was simply too wrapped up in work. In my sitch, W never really said anything.
And I've said this earlier, but I think it sounds like you're being completely reasonable in asking him to change. The key is to work together and if he sinks instead of swims, there it is. You just need to be clear about how much energy you can and can't put into things and he needs to understand that. In my sitch, W initially said she would do that, but never really followed through - ended up being the OM influence.
I feel a little angry for the same reasons you do. I supported W while she got Master's and then did 2 years of PhD. She encouraged me to get Master's and said she'd be supportive. So I applied and got accepted and when I started spending my nights in the library, she felt abandoned. Then she reinstated in her PhD and you know the rest.
But as I said of my dad, my step-mom told him what she needed and he provided that for 2 years until she really felt ready. All he asked was that she not start up with someone else, that she'd do things with him on a regular basis, and that she'd tell him if she was unhappy about something. She asked him for space, for patience, and to come to counseling when she asked him to. I think those are reasonable demands on both their parts.
So, to wrap that all up - I think you're being reasonable. The situation is tough, but you're trying whereas my W headed to OM and D as the only possible solution.
lodo
hey bridgestone, in case you miss it on my thread, I'm just curious - are you doing something similar to science and public policy? I'm looking at the problems predictive sciences face in policy formation.
lodo
I want my turn instead of just giving up my place in line so someone else.. him, my parents, my in-laws, my kids can have another piece of the resources- my time, energy, or support- I have to give in any given day. I want my resources for me for a change. I know I am the only one who can choose where they go & who gets them and I am choosing me & my kids.
I completely 100% agree with you doing this. This was exactly how I "saved myself first". I felt rather guilty at first, but I was in survival mode. I also found out that when I stopped doing "everything" H started doing more. I enabled him & I didn't even realize it.
I talk about having the bone dry empty love bucket. I'm sure yours is bone dry as well. If you don't start filling it up yourself, nobody else will. Besides that, the best thing you can do for your kids, is to take really good care of their mom.
Can I hang with you guys since I'm a student now ?
Hugs.
you're moving onto digestive system, right?
Cookie, you're welcome wherever you go (he says on bridgestone's thread)!
lodo
Can I hang with you guys since I'm a student now ?
Hugs.
Anytime! Shall we have group study sessions? That is one thing I miss from the Undergraduate days is the roundtable of everyone studying something, not necessarily the same things, just the ease of knowing that others next to you, are understanding of the effort being put into trying to reach a goal, and the struggle & rollercoaster ride that goes into that.
mmm... sounds familiar!
I'm onto organizing & updating a literature review of "Inquiry in science laboratories" tonight.
et tu?
Hey group studiers,
I'm getting ready to work on my powerpoint (although I use keynote) for my conference presentation. I'm excited because I found some really nice visuals that I had no idea existed! Now for the talk part ... Although I'm excited there as well because in a seminar today we had a really good speaker and I was able to pay attention to what she did and how she did it - clever little speaking tricks. They'll all fly out of my brain the minute I take the stage, but I can pretend I'll remember them!
cookie, what are you working on?
Hey fellow studiers,
I'm learning "symptoms of gastrointestinal illnesses". I need to be able to hear words like this;
esophagogastroduodenoscopy.
& then spell them correctly in a medical report.
LOL That's a good one huh.
esophagogastroduodenoscopy
You've got to be kidding me!?
Morning Bridgestone. How are you today ?
Lodo, no joke, that a bonafide word that I'll be listening to & transcribing. (**cookie wonders who's idea it was to become a certified medical transcriber**) lol
Seriously though, it's really interesting & very challenging & I'm loving every minute of it. Although, last night I couldn't eat dinner because I had been studying gastrointestinal illnesses. Ugh ! Not good for a healthy appetite.
How's your talk going ?
I'm headed to C in a few minutes, will see you later.
Hey fellow studiers,
I'm learning "symptoms of gastrointestinal illnesses". I need to be able to hear words like this;
esophagogastroduodenoscopy.
& then spell them correctly in a medical report.
LOL That's a good one huh.
Hi SC
I was a medical transciptionist during summers when I was in college... I remember the first time I heard oophrectomy.(procedure that removes the ovaries).
I think I re-wound the tape (yes it was a cassette) and replayed that word about a hundred times before I finally went & found the patients chart & looked it up.
Not fun!
Sort of like my day today.. It started with a 5:45 am call from H. He's doing some things that work for me, (he is- empathetically listening, just letting me vent, quit fixing my problems)
he wants to know when am I going to start doing things that he needs (sex, move back home, sleep in his bed,bring his family back, etc.).. he understands that I can not do them RIGHT now. but when can he expect me to be able to??
How do I explain the allocation of resource issue to him? I have tried. What I hear back is.. I'm doing what you need, now you have to do what I need. His idea of the golden rule. give as good as you get. I heard this as part of his defense of his anger issues. Your mad at me so I get to be this mad at you.
He is giving me what I need, now I need to give him what he needs.
I suppose it's a matter of priority.
Giving him what he needs will take resources that I'm just not ready to give him yet. Without jeopardizing things for me & my kids that I'm not going to jeopardize. It will require emotional risks that I'm just not ready to take yet. When will that be? When I'm ready. And for him, that is not good enough.
So It has been a day of letting myself feel 'not enough', insufficient, and basically a bad person for H. Am I a good person to me, yes I was. To my kids, yep. To a friend who I will celebrate her birthday tonight.. yes again.
So why do I let his negative defining words impact my mental attitude and tear at my self-esteem so much more than my own positively defining words? As the tootsie pop owl, wisely said.. the world may never know!
Hi bridgestone,
Does H always call that early in the AM? I don't think I'd like that.
So I'm going to play devil's advocate just so you have another viewpoint.
First off, the adage "we always hurt the one we love" is true in that we often go out of our way to do nice things for acquaintances but wouldn't do the same for those closest to us. I say that because there's an underlying current of that in what I read in your post.
Could he feel that he's done everything you've asked and yet nothing has changed? I would guess that he's feeling discouraged and lead on at this point.
You should determine what you
ARE willing to do for the good of the relationship, communicate that to him, and then be willing to take one step further. Coming out from behind the wall is no fun and it's risky and fraught with jeopardy. That's what being human means, though. If you stay behind the wall, you can't be reached.
Maybe you should just tell him that this isn't a game of tit for tat - that you've been damaged by the experience of the last xx years and recapturing the emotions needed will take time, but you aren't rushing out of the situation. And you're trying. And you appreciate his patience and understanding but he needs to keep trying and also be willing to take additional steps. Tell him that the rule of thumb is 1 month of relationship work for every year of marriage - that should put things in perspective.
And I don't mean this to be a 2x4, but I'd guess you're letting yourself feel insufficient because you feel guilty. You're now in his position prior to the bomb, where you're caught up in work and you don't want the relationship to intrude. Could there be a little of that? If you were him and he were you right now and you heard your words and were saying the things he's been saying, would you be comfortable with the sitch? Would you feel there was progress?
Just asking ... I'm sure you've heard all this and thought about it a hundred times. I'm only reminding you to think of it again and try to determine what's really going on here. You're here on this board for a reason, so what's the next baby step?
Hope you're doing okay!
lodo
hi need to make this quick as I'm headed out for a friends birthday party tonight. The Big 4-o for her.. Should be fun.
You have given me much to contemplate & yes I have considered some of what you have said.
To answer your first question, which is the easiest...
actually he calls quite frequently at that time of day.
The 2-3am phone calls have lessened in their frequency, but initially (like the first 6 months) it was almost a nightly occurance.
Now maybe 1-2x a month, with the early morning (5-6am) being almost daily. No- I am not an early riser, not by habit..I'm actually a night owl.. I guess in some respects that is one of the steps I have been willing to do, keep answering the phone no matter what time of day or night he calls.
Maybe I should do a 180 on that, huh?
Later!
have fun bridgestone.
Personally, I wouldn't have tolerated the phone calls. If they had continued, I would have bought a phone with a ringer that could be turned off. And I would have explicitly told him, "I'm hurt, this has been a long time coming, but discussing things at wee hours doesn't help and I won't talk to you at all if you continue."
That said, there is always a little tingle when my phone rings and I see that it's W (I only have cell, no land line). I hate it that I do, but I do. And I almost always answer.
So, I don't think it's a 180 as much as a boundary. People need sleep.
Regarding the other stuff to contemplate, remember that you're striking close to home. I found it extremely hypocritical that W said she'd support me when I started working long hours on grad degree, then became withdrawn from feeling like I was ignoring her and wasn't providing her needs, and then reinstated in her PhD and told me she just needed time to concentrate on her work and didn't have time to deal with a relationship. Difference is that I'm willing to place a long-term relationship above work, she isn't. And what do my PhD-holding friends say (who are profs at a prestigious univ) - if they had to do it over again, they would have tried harder to balance the relationship.
Okay, this is becoming about me, not you. But I didn't want to get you riled - just understand where I'm coming from.
Hope you're having a great night! I'm, of course, working on my talk ...
BTW, since you're now becoming one of us (quickly checking threads before you run out again) there is a group of us on facebook. We can't share certain things here, but search on fb can be a wonderful option. Just ask an almost WA who posted something that really moved you! No pressure, though.
lodo
Hi SC
I was a medical transciptionist during summers when I was in college... I remember the first time I heard oophrectomy.(procedure that removes the ovaries).
I think I re-wound the tape (yes it was a cassette) and replayed that word about a hundred times before I finally went & found the patients chart & looked it up.
Not fun!
Too Funny !!! I had no clue that I'd be learning this much stuff. I am having a good time though. It keeps me out of trouble (well, mostly).
Sort of like my day today.. It started with a 5:45 am call from H. He's doing some things that work for me, (he is- empathetically listening, just letting me vent, quit fixing my problems)
he wants to know when am I going to start doing things that he needs (sex, move back home, sleep in his bed,bring his family back, etc.).. he understands that I can not do them RIGHT now. but when can he expect me to be able to??
How do I explain the allocation of resource issue to him? I have tried. What I hear back is.. I'm doing what you need, now you have to do what I need. His idea of the golden rule. give as good as you get. I heard this as part of his defense of his anger issues. Your mad at me so I get to be this mad at you.
He is giving me what I need, now I need to give him what he needs.
I suppose it's a matter of priority.
Giving him what he needs will take resources that I'm just not ready to give him yet. Without jeopardizing things for me & my kids that I'm not going to jeopardize. It will require emotional risks that I'm just not ready to take yet. When will that be? When I'm ready. And for him, that is not good enough.
So It has been a day of letting myself feel 'not enough', insufficient, and basically a bad person for H. Am I a good person to me, yes I was. To my kids, yep. To a friend who I will celebrate her birthday tonight.. yes again.
So why do I let his negative defining words impact my mental attitude and tear at my self-esteem so much more than my own positively defining words? As the tootsie pop owl, wisely said.. the world may never know!
My H did something similar too. It was like he expected me to heal & repair on his time table. I just told him over & over, it doesn't work that way. I get better when I get better, & the more you pressure me, the longer it takes.
& Lodo is right (about a lot of stuff) and especially, it's not tit for tat. I love the idea of 1 month for each year. I hope you had fun at the party tonight. Hugs.
thanks for the invite. I have been frustrated with what is apparently a new policy on here, however, after doing what you suggested I have eliminated the obvious search options (sc, db, waw, etc) without any success.
More hints?
got it.. thanks.
was looking under groups.. my bad!
nice time at the b-day party tonight. "former' friends; old, used to hang with but not anymore, but nice still nice to see friends, and current friends were all there. The friends were a big issue with H & I when I left last year.
Still not good about how he 'handled' it with some of them, I can not control his actions, but that doesn't mean I have to like them!
H was there.. he was nice/polite/even accomdating getting me a bottle of water and some mosquito repellent. I smiled and brought him back a piece of cake with the extra frosting off mine, just as he likes. He noticed... just a small smile when he saw my extra frosting scraped onto the side of the plate, but he noticed.
Little things.. maybe he appreciates them a bit more now. As do I.
Bridgestone:
Your description (and that of SMARTCOOKIE) of a WAW's mental state are poignant and undoubtedly accurate in the vast majority of cases. The LBH's anger and hurt are just as real. The only way back is via FORGIVENESS...on BOTH SIDES. ACTIONS must be allowed to precede FEELINGS and actions are a CHOICE you can both make. Most WAWs are told this yet ignore it (mine certainly did, was told many times in C). They simply feel that "I have lost my feelings and can't get them back." While understandable, the opposite approach is futile...no one can recapture "good feelings" by avoiding personal contact and stubbornly maintaining an emotional wall while hoping to just magically "feel it" again first before doing something.
Many WAs will say "I would just rather be alone..." but this is a cop-out; most will (if they haven't already) find themselves soon in an EA/PA and usually with someone they would not ever consider being involved with (married, vast age, values, social differences) under "normal" circumstances. They will justify their betrayal of their own moral/ethical standards in any way possible to soothe the guilt and convince themselves that "this just feels soooo right".
AZdoc, great summary. This is such an accurate portrayal of my WAW and her reaction it is truely frightening. She wanted to be alone, live the single life, wasn't attracted to me, it was all wrong from the start, broke off all contact, then claimed it didn't feel right any more (why would it if you never see the other person after you leave) and finally - surprise, surprise - ended up in another R, which probably had started as an EA before she left.
I also pointed out that feelings require actions and actions are under people's control. However, I was the wrong messenger. So, so frustrating.
Vent over.
Max
Max
I can hear your frustration with trying to get your WAW to see your perspective on the feelings/actions piece.
I guess I can understand that having the feeling of lonliness (for example) there are some actions you have the option to take to act on that feeling.
1- ignore it
2- look for a way to connect to your partner to alleviate it
3- look for someone/something else to take your mind off it, until it passes
So it seems to me (althouh I haven't read your sitch) that your wife did choose an action to 'deal with' her emotions.
You just don't like the action she chose. Which is entirely understandable.
Did she try 1 & 2 first? I don't know.
Did she try #2 often enough & not have a response that helped alleviate the lonliness that she then tried #3? I don't know.
Maybe her trying #2 often, made you feel nagged on or clung to, and you chose to act on that feeling of annoyance by ignoring her.
I don't know that either, but those are all actions that follow emotions.
As I read somewhere, life is 10% of what really happens to us and 90% of how we react to it (which does include feelings).
Peace
Hi Bridgestone,
Not to hijack your thread, but ...
... thanks for your comments!
She certainly tried igoring her feelings over about the course of a year - she said as much once. I don't remember her trying to connect to me during that time. I only remember a couple of things she said about herself that seemed out of character and slightly disturbing, which she wouldn't be drawn on. As for taking her mind off things, well, she worked hard and talked to her friends, just not to me - by then I think she felt I was 'too different' from her. I believe that in doing this she became aware of new, exciting opportunities* and decided I was boring and reflected things about her that had since changed. She also went to individual counselling (I told her it might help her come to terms with some of the stuff she was saying but wouldn't elaborate on). I'm fairly certain that helped end our R.
Note, she has never admitted anything about seeing someone during that time, but there is a lot of evidence that would fit.
As far as I was concerned it felt like:
1) Irritation with me preceeding bomb by about 2-3 weeks.
2) Bomb. No attraction, all physical contact stops immediately and never resumes. List of minor annoyances about me.
3) 8 weeks of stress living under the same roof, not knowing how to make any progress. She talks about the fantasy of a single life during this time. Some IC (both) and 2 or 3 MC sessions.
4) An announcement that she has signed the lease on a new place and is moving out in 2 weeks.
5) She moves out.
6) During the next 3 months we meet only 3 times. All meetings are arranged by her so that they are on her terms. In each case she always has somewhere she needs to be which causes her to leave.
6) We then meet for a final time and she tells me it's over - "It no longer feels right".
7*) 5 weeks later I receive letter through the door addressed to her and another man (whom I know) - an old university friend of hers.
8) A week later I bump into them shopping in town. NB he lives a long way away from where we live.
There was no wavering at all from her after the bomb. She felt I was trying to find a fix and there wasn't one. Any issues I had with how I was being treated were my problems, not hers. She had grown and I hadn't. End of story.
We haven't met since then, although we still get on fine when we have other contact. However, we may meet in the next month or so once the house is sorted.
More late night phone calls.. however, this time my phone was on silent!
The kids were here so I was not worried about missing a call if something was up with them. Why he didn't call the house phone I don't know, but he did not!
I returned his call this morning and we talked for a bit. He is working again this week-end and next, even though he is suppose to take every other week-end off to have the kids (& show himself & me that he is NOT a work-aholic) this will make 5 week-ends in a row, next will be 6. So it will be almost 2 months since he has had the kids for a full week-end and not worked. sigh..
So when he tells me he has changed, that he does not work as much or as long and I see this pattern, seemingly headed back to where he was, it is discouraging. I can not live with someone that works 7 days a week for 2 months and then takes a day off reluctantly. It is lonely, I need quality time as my love language and I feel unloved.
He said he would like to take me on a bike ride, pack a picniclunch and find a scenic spot to eat it. I said great. Why don't you plan it and let me know a few days ahead when that is going to work for you & the weather. He was really quiet and then made a comment about the floods & mosquitos along the trail, etc. and the kids schedules, and.. and ... and..
I said, well your choice. It sounds like fun to me, we could even go geocaching (something I really like to do & he has told me that he wants to go along now) if you let me know where you want to biking to . I'll wait for you to plan it and give me few days notice. Again, silence from him.
So I said, "well, I need to run and get my day started, I'll see you later when you pick up D". He told me he loved me and some more things that were our 'code words' for wanting sex.
I was neutral with my response, something about thanks for thinking of me that way. and rang off.
Putting the ball in his court to do the planning is definately a 180 for me. I am the planner, the organizer, the to-do lister, the calander updater, person. so for me to agree to go do something with him, but tell him to take care of the detailes is definately out of character for me, but you know what?
I liked it. I will not fret about it getting done. If he does it he does it. If not, then his loss and I may just plan a bike outing with D for this week-end or next anyway.
Wow -
Sorry but your H sounds a little clueless. I mean, most of us on here would be jumping up and down for a chance like you describe.
You shouldn't plan everything, especially if it's his suggestion. If you're picky about how things get handled, you should let go of some of that so he can plan in his own way. But he needs to step up a LITTLE!
Good for you! I think you're being more than fair. Go on the bike ride anyway with D if he falls through, even if it's hot and muggy and mosquitoey.
lodo
I must admit, the pattern you describe about his work is discouraging. I'm suprised he can't see it himself. He appears quite adept at missing opportunities to change and demonstrate it and then he goes for the code word option. Wow.
The typical pattern continues.
H's work plans are messed up today because of the weather. But so would the biking plans he proposed, but never finalized with me, in terms of a day/time, etc. So he calls as 8am and asks what else would work for me today?
Umm.. excuse me, I didn't realize I agreed to do anything 'today'?
I have made plans for today (based on the weather forecast for rain) that I would do things for my job (which has some flexibilty, but needs to be done by Sunday night).
I am conflicted,
I think that if I agree to go with H for what he has planned (he did not say, nor did he ask if today would work for me before 8am this morning), that I am perpetuating the very pattern I want to dissuade. His job gets to dictate our time together, planned or unplanned and everyone elses plans have to flex around those. If I make & stick to plans regardless of changes to his job, then I am mean and bi#^hy.
If I stick by my original plans of working on things for my job today, & telling him that today does not work, then I don't feel I am reinforcing the effort he did do to initiate an outing with me and try to plan something.
Do I go with him and tell him of my concerns I outlined in the first one?
Or not go with him and tell him my gratitude for his trying that I outlined on the 2nd one?
So any advice??
I would personally stick to your own plans, but take a rain check... make sure you emphasize that you absolutely appreciate his offer, but unfortunately, you were not aware that there were plans confirmed with him today. Be sure to stress when and time you ARE available and ask him if he would like to reschedule... if he doesn't, it's his loss.
That's me personally...
Hi,
After calling my C and talking this through with her. She agreed that I should call my H. on his behaviour, but be positive about the changes he has made .
I just got off the phone with him.
I started off asking if he was some place to talk for a few minutes as I some things I wanted to talk through. He said was in a good mentally, but not physically ( he was in his mom's kitchen). I asked him to please call me back when he could be in a good place for both.
He called me back about 5 minutes later.
I told him I was happy that he was trying to find time to go on outings with me, doing things we both liked to do (biking, drinking wine, etc) but expecting me to drop my plans for the day, just because his have changed, especially since nothing ad been agreed upon in advanced, was inconsiderate.
I told him I had no expectations of doing anything today with him as nothing had been confirmed and I had left it with him that he was to give me a few days notice.
He agreed that was his understanding too, but thought he would check and see if I was busy, as his plans had changed (although ironically, b/c the weather forecasted early this morning, for this afternoon, never happened, he ended up doing what he had originally planned anyway- so if I would have agreed he would have probably cancelled anyway!!)
I told him I would like him to consider that others live by schedules,not just the weather and that most people (not just me) plan things a few days ahead. That is not an unrealistic or 'weird' behavior. I am all for spontaneity, but what he has and asked me to exhibit the past 48 hours was not that.
he listened and parroted back what I said. He agreed that he can understand why I would be frustrated with his actions and apologized that it came across that way.
I told him I had time tonight, tomorrow night, & Sunday afternoon, to do something together. But that I was planning a bike outing with the D. for Sunday morning after church, a BBQ with friends on Sunday evening, and I needed time sometime saturday morning/afternoon to finish my work.
I heard him pause, and then I could literally hear him through the phone straighten himself up and ask if I would go with him to a wine tasting event tonight (wow.. how did he know about that?) and a bike outing tomorrow afternoon.
I enthusiastically said, they both sound like a lot of fun! What time?
We worked out the details of each and now I need to go get ready for the first one.
Baby steps
and
confidence in asking for what one wants
mmmm... maybe DB'ing works for both the WAS & the LBS
or maybe it's just good communication & willingness to accept what the other person is in the moment, not your assumptions & pre-conceived ideas of what they should be or have been to you.
toodles!
or maybe it's just good communication & willingness to accept what the other person is in the moment, not your assumptions & pre-conceived ideas of what they should be or have been to you.
I vote for number 2. Good communciation and willingness to accept the other person will get you where you want to go if you are consistent with it.
Oh wow B....that sounds so great! Wish my h could listen and respond like that....instead he gets all bent out of shape that his 'bending' doesn't have the outcome he was expecting eg me changing my plans to suit him.
I think that was excellent... showed maturity on BOTH of you. Hope you had fun.
thanks for the support ladies.. it went well. Pleasant time was had. No push by H for more intimacies than was offered, (a friendly hug I initiated), smiles & relaxing in the moment. Nice to stop beating ones head against the wall for a change
I moved the work until today & did the outing with D yesterday after the bike ride. Now I just need to find the caffeine & ambition to do so! Have a BBQ tonight to attend so needing to be done by then will help propel me along.
Later ladies (& gentlemen)!
Oh it all takes a lot of energy to do life + DB'ing doesn't it?
Hi bridgestone,
So I asked you some questions you never answered.
I'm glad you had an okay time with H. What didn't he do?
Could he feel that he's done everything you've asked and yet nothing has changed?
I'd guess you're letting yourself feel insufficient because you feel guilty. You're now in his position prior to the bomb, where you're caught up in work and you don't want the relationship to intrude. Could there be a little of that? If you were him and he were you right now and you heard your words and were saying the things he's been saying, would you be comfortable with the sitch? Would you feel there was progress?
Why are you here if you're so unsure?
Just asking.
lodo
hi lodo,
I'm not sure what you mean by 'why are you here if you are so unsure'. That is probably why I am here.
I haven't answered because I am still very angry about this sitch with him, especially the job & career. So be warned that will come out in the posting.
He has made changes, I have made changes, I have told him I noticed his changes, things between us have changed from where they were in January. We 'talk' now, not just kid, finance, divorce stuff. I share now, he listens (sometimes). There is some physical interactions (not sex) but hugs, touches, hand-holding.
He has not done everything I have asked, there is not consistancy & regularity in his anger management & outbursts. He has not gotten a hobby to have interests outside of work, to have ideas, conversation starters & points to add, he has not returned to seeing an IC to continue work on his intimacy, control, work-aholic, and anger issues.
He wants the marriage to work but I'm the one bringing things to the table from this website, from relationship books, from my IC session. Sure he'll read them, listen, go 'uh-huh', try a few techniques, but the effort he's putting in, IMO right now .. could fit into a thimble.
As far as the job thing... yep i know it's hypocritical. Can't help that.. it's what I need for me right now. This is taking care of me. I need to realize my dream, that means the degree comes first. R is give & take.. I gave & gave & gave. He got & got & got. He'll readily admit his dreams of his business growth have been realized, actually years before he thought they would.
When I asked him to step up so I could 'go' he agreed.. sure, no problem.... 7 years later I still am not done with my dream, is some of that due to a PIA major prof, yes.. but that is not any different in my eyes than the 2 tornadoes that affected our business for 4 years post-tornado & he had to work through all those rebuilding & I stood beside him while he did it (IMO).
7 years later, when I reiterate this to him he still thinks he supported me in that he took care of the kids (which really means, he made lists of chores for the them to do while he was working & waited for me to come home the week-ends to do the rest) for one month 3 summers ago while I stayed oncampus 5 days & 4 nights a week to have daily access to my major prof. Still coming home on week-ends to play 'catch-up' as mom/wife/maid.
He FINALLY after 7 years, told me, 2 months ago, he believed in me getting this done. Now he says it? 7 years into this? I'm 6 months away from finishing one of the most difficult accomplishments academically.. now he says I believe in you?? Great.. fantastic...whoppee...
Would I be comfortable with the sitch if things were reversed? No, I'd be so damn ashamed of myself that I couldn't help (hadn't helped) my life-partner of 22 years realize one of his dreams I would probably be apologizing up one side & down the other, trying to find ways to 'make it better'. But that's me.. I'm a care-taker.
OK.. vent over. thanks for listening.
And yes, ... I have told him all this.
Hi bridgestone,
Sorry, by asking why you were here if you were unsure is my own sitch bleeding in. Posted when I was a bit tired and frustrated. My W sees being unsure as a reason NOT to work on anything.
So I think the way H is acting IS quite frustrating. He's kinda doing it, but not to any great extent. Many of us would LOVE to have the chance to show our WAWs the changes we can make, the support we can offer, the attention we can give.
So it seems like you're in a bit of limbo. Being patient and trying is kinda working. But you still don't have what you need. What is your gut feeling about what will happen by the time you finish your diss?
lodo
I'm floundering right now...
I need some direction, but heading off in one direction seems to close off paths that I'm not sure I want closed off.
The summer is 1/2 way done & I will return to my 'job' in 8 weeks, for one last year before needing to find another. That is scary.
In this next year I need to finish my degree or finding a job will be very very hard.
My son heads off for college in 8 weeks as well.
I'm just feeling discombobulated today. I usually clean or organize a drawer when I'm feeling like this, something to just have some order in my life, when if feels as if the rest is spinning out of control.
I want to talk to my H, but he can be so DAM and it just frustrates me even more when I try, hoping he won't be, needing him not to be and then he is.
But when he listens, really listens, looks into my eyes, not at the ground or closing his eyes, nods his head, goes uh-huh, keeps his body relaxed and not tense, puts his hand on mine and 'says,
"Just a minute I want to make sure I'm really getting you here, can I try to give it back to you?"
then taking his time & care, with putting what I said into his own words, with examples and then affirms with something like
"wow, that must really make you hurt/frustrated/angry/anxious, etc. I can really see how abc..def..hij.. could make you feel that way" Can you tell me more?"
.. oh my... so good.
But when we're done and I've been heard. I look at him and think.. now what? What do we have in common?
What we had in common & liked to do together when we were 17 & 19, is so very different now.
I'm tired of putting ideas out there for him to find reasons not to participate in them. We watch moives together. I have watched the same movie with him as I have another guy friend (at another time). H & I had about a 10 minute discussion about what we each liked/thought about the plot, characters, etc.
The friend & I were still talking about it days later.
Laughing at the absurdities we had discussed in it prior to that.
Do people really just 'grow apart'?
and if one still loves the other but is acting as if they are not interested in doing the things it takes to grow with them, by paying lipservice to it and patronizingly going along, because "it's what you wanted to do"
then what?
So I'm left with the 'now what'? attitude today.
I am calling a few counselors I found that specialize in conflict resolution & communication. I'll see who can get us in and is wiling to work with us given the situation.
I asked H to think about what activities (besides sex) he would like to do together to build some companionship & new good memories. He said he'd think about it.
Off to make phone calls.
hi
double checked with H on dates that wouldn't work for meeting with counselors before I started calling.
Called two,
one may not even agree to see us, needs to have clinical evaluation first to see if we are in need of his services or if there are others in the community that would serve us better... Um ok...
So over the phone, when this person calls back in 2-4 days, I'm suppose to highlight the issues we're having and what got us to this point all in 5 minutes or so. uh-huh
Then if they agree that this Dr. is able to meet our needs as a counselor then the SOONEST They could get us in would be the end of August. uggg...
The 2nd guy I called (does the same Couples Communication course that H & I agreed to do, as the first guy) can get us in Thursday at 4pm. Sold.. took it. Got directions.
Called H. and said
"how does Thursday, day after tomorrow, at 4pm strike you for an appointment.. I couldn't believe he could work us in that quick!"
He replied in his raised voice that indicates irritation, "What??" I told you I have to do xyz that day at work"
I replied calmly, with my heart in my throat and trying not to hang up and run away from his intensity...
"It is in the late afternoon we don't need to leave until 2pm. Your xyz will be done by 12noon at the latest and you know it. When has it ever gone past lunch? Give me one time in 30 years."
I waited patiently.. it was quiet. For those that don't remember, he backed out of MC 2x during a 3 week period, over a year ago to do 'his job' instead of go to counseling.
He then replied, in a much quieter & calm voice. "what day did you say it was?"
I said, 'day after tomorrow, thursday".
"Oh, I thought you said the 10th and you know I have to do xyz that morning"
I thought about defending .. how did you get 'the tenth' from 'Thursday, day after tomorrow'?? but I didn't.
I replied with.. "so Thursday, the 3rd, day after tomorrow at 4pm works for you?"
"yes, that should be fine".
"ok then...thanks.. see you at D's ballgame at 7pm, please bring the lawn chairs."
"See ya"
I want a beer, maybe 2.
I'm going to hang jeans on the line instead.
Hi bridgestone,
I'm sorry. Trying to get ready for a dinner party, so no time now but wanted to express support - more later.
lodo
I had a friend who called a psychiatrist for a new appointment. They asked what the appointment was for, my friend replied, "chronic severe depression", they receptionist said "the soonest we can see you is October". WTF ? What is wrong with people. that's my 1st rant & it's not a joke.
2nd rant;
Do you feel sometimes like just plain communicating is so exhausting that it's hardly worth the effort ?
I know I did for a long long long long time.
It's better now though. Hang in there.
Hope this appointment goes well for you, Bridgestone. Have you looked into the Retrouvaille programs,
http://www.helpourmarriage.org? The way that you described him listening to you on occasion is exactly how we are taught to communicate at Retrouvaille. Talking about your feelings, asking questions, showing understanding, eye contact. It is great. The weekend is two days of soul searching to uncover your own feelings about the good times and the bad times and discussing them in depth through the dialogue method. And then you get homework. Which is great, because the homework is to keep doing dialogues at home, choosing your questions together. It really does work.
Maybe this counselor will do it for you. I hope he will. But if he doesn't, keep Retrouvaille in mind.
Thanks for the support lodo,
will check for you in the usual places, at the usual time.
Hi SC.
I don't get the 'can't get you in for 3 more months' routine. If you are that full, get another doctor in your practice for crying out loud.
Do most people have 3 months to wait to be seen for mental & psychological issues? How many hear how long it's going to take and then never go because it takes so long?
Am going to rant in my next posting about my night tonight.
Thanks for being here.
it just gets better & better doesn't it. I guess at least I haven't wasted 2 days with all this BS I've had today.
H & S (18) got into it tonight.. I swear to god it was like an out of body experience listening to the two of the argue. S was calling H on every point I have called him on (except being abusive) in the past year. H talked to and treated S just as he treats me, like a dumba$$.
The kid was asking his Dad how to build his credit score. Wants to get credit card to use it responsibly to build his credit score, so when he gets out of college, he's good to go for buying a car/house, etc.
Now opinions aside about credit cards & 18 year olds, this kid has had a debit card & checking account since he has been 14. Never overdrafted once in almost 5 years and it's not because his dad & I saved his A$$ either, He is just that good with money.
H told S, there was no reason for him to do that at this point, he could wait until he was out of school or even until next year to get a credit card.
It was stupid to try and build a credit rating at his age.
What the hell was the point? Was he going to go out & buy anything that needed a credit history in the next year??
Stupid this, assinine that, idiotic (such creative words don't you agree?)
logic, logic, logic.. and it's only his logic that matters. As S. told him, I spent 3 hours looking up information on this, came to you for advice and all you can tell me is how stupid this idea is and how dumb it was & I am for thinking it's a good idea in the first place. He let him have it pretty good.... pretty much summed up most of the argument points I have had with him about his 'communication' with me.
While in some ways it was satisfying to watch & listen too, my heart hurt watching them both hurt each other as they did. I did not interfere, or try to 'take care' of it (god that was hard).
I let it run it's course. H left, S. stormed out of the room, and D went to bed crying, because someone talked nasty to her Dad (she's very much daddy's littel girl). H called S back about 3o minutes later, I'm guessing to apologize.. that's pretty much his MO.
Now I need those 2 beers.
Hi bridgestone,
Do people really just 'grow apart'?
yes. People change, develop new interests, abandon others. It's obviously important to balance pursuing your own interests with involving your spouse in your life or there is the danger of growing too far apart. Of course, the same is true for your spouse. Healthy marriages require a mutual willingness to challenge and be challenged. If you don't care enough to be an interesting and interested partner, you've abandoned the relationship.
Your exchange with H re: counseling is ... well, you know. He's DAM.
H & S (18) got into it tonight.. I swear to god it was like an out of body experience listening to the two of the argue.
Oh this thing between a father and a son. Loudon Wainwright wrote a song about it. IMO there is a dynamic there that women find hard to understand. Men find it hard to understand, but we still get wrapped up in it. You did really well by not trying to 'take care' of it.
How are you today? lodo
I hope your H will listen to the counselor about communication. You are right, he needs tons of work in that area. Not condemning the other person's idea is the first step in meaningful communication. But, apparently, you know that.
I guess your husband is unaware that they teach "life skills" in high school these days, and one of the important topic areas in building and keeping good credit. Each of my 3 kids approached me with that question at about that age. And I cosigned a credit card for each of them. My youngest was advised by his older sister to go to McDonalds once a month and charge a lunch. Then pay it off the next day. And don't use the card for anything else. She says that builds credit very well. It is important for these kids to have credit. My 24 year old has just started his own business and he needs credit to order supplies for the jobs, but since he is self-employed, all he can get is a debit card. This is very difficult for him. So though he is president of his company, he still has to come to Mom and Dad for help to buy supplies.
I'm surprised that knowing how his father is, your son went to him and not you on this issue. My three approach me for everything, because I am the one who gives what they want usually.
I hope your H will listen to the counselor about communication.
I hope so too.
I'm surprised that knowing how his father is, your son went to him and not you on this issue. My three approach me for everything, because I am the one who gives what they want usually.
He came to me a month ago about this. We talked it through, applied for a student one on-line (they need his paid tuition receipt first to verify he is a college student -wont have that until next month). and I encouraged S. to talk to his dad about it at some point. I had already told H we were doing this. He was non-chalant (whatever, sure, fine) about it at the time
One of the things H. says I do is exclude him from the kids lives by 'dealing with all their stuff', not leaving him things to talk over with the kids and provide advice on.
So even though S & I have already had this disucssion and started down the path of getting a credit card, I though H could provide some input and it would be a good thing for them to connect on since S's dad is a self-employed business man and his dad's dad is on the bank board where we bank.
I think S was looking to show his dad 'hey, look what i'm doing that's responsible, that is taking charge and doing something pro-active in my life" and all he heard his dad do was belittle him for it and tell him why it was silly to do this now.
Makes me want to throw my hands up in the air and walk away again. Have not heard from either S or H what the phone call was about after the arguement last night. Not sure if I should ask.
Hopefully H apologized, but it is actions in the future that need to change. He is notorious for throwing out "I'm sorry" and "it's all my fault" and then thinking that is enough to make it better (as S. pointed out to him again last night). Problem is.. with S going off to college in 8 weeks and then it is 10 hours away, the change for H to show S he has changed gets slimmer and slimmer.
ok.. enough wallowing. I'm going to the driving range to hit some balls, maybe even play 9 holes as I have not yet this year and am missing the time on the course.
Hi bridgestone,
I'm just going to throw this out - it's really hard to find a counselor that you jive with, and then it takes time with them before things start to move. I'm sure you understand that, but will your H or will he expect you to move back in after the first session?
lodo
I have told him this is not changing where I live or where he lives. This is not to reconcile our differences or the past hurts/abuse/betrayals/resentments of the marriage.
It is for us to be able to learn better communication skills, so maybe we can address the past in a more constructive way. We may spend more time together to work on those skills, but right now I still need my space & place.
Honestly, I can not see myself moving back to that house at all. If there would be a reconciliation, he will have to move here or we will find a new place. For me, right now that is a non-negotiable piece.
Honestly, I can not see myself moving back to that house at all. If there would be a reconciliation, he will have to move here or we will find a new place. For me, right now that is a non-negotiable piece.
I definitely understand. While W was gone, I went over to check on things and when i walked back into the house I realized that I didn't think I'd be willing to live there ever again.
Of course, that option isn't on the table, but ...
lodo
Hi lodo,
Thanks for understanding... I still clench up when I walk into that house.. It's like my body is rejecting what I was when I lived there.
I do miss my kitchen. We had remodeled a few years back, it was my dream kitchen.. Took my Dad (he does kitchen designs) & me over 6 months to come up with a remodel design that fit into the existing footprint of the house. Didn't knock anywalls down.
There were electrical outlets every 30 inches, (as opposed to 2 in the whole kitchen before!) quarter-sawn 15" deep, red oak cupboards, stainless steel door/drawer pulls (ratio-sized for the height/width of the door/drawer) stained-glass custom-designed (by me)cupboard door inserts, stainless steel appliances.. (sigh). I guess the food doesn't taste any different prepared in my kitchen now as opposed to that one, but boy there are sure times that I do miss the it!
H & I have C today I am anxious. This is the first time back in C together since April of last year. I did not get to sleep until after 3 am and then had really weird dreams.
It is almost a 2 hour drive to the C we are going to see, which will mean we will spend most of the afternoon & early evening together. I'm taking my iPod so I can retreat if needed into my music. Cowardly I know, but right now i still need to find ways to protect myself.
Hugs to you Bridge!!
Urgh...2 hour drive on the way to C, and presumable 2 hour drive back? IPOD IPOD IPOD. Or sleep (pretend to sleep)
Were the dreams cool weird dreams or nasty weird dreams?
Here you go...something to (hopefully) take your mind off the C session. Last week d7 gets into bed with me at about 5am because she couldn't sleep. I happened to have my *ahem* battery operated bf in the bed that night and hadn't put it away yet. She picked it up and said "mummy what's this?" omg.... _that_ woke me up quick smart!
I think I said..."it's adult stuff, honey. I'll tell you about it another time" yeah. like when you're 30!.
Neck massager. That's your neck massager.
*snort* Sara, that is funny!!
I can just imagine...
Me: That's my neck massager honey.
d7: "can I have a go Mummy?"
Me: Um...how about...no.
d7: Pleeeease?
Me: It's broken honey.
ROTFLMAO..
too funny.. that definately will put a smile on my face today. Thanks for that!
D(13) & I have yet to have that talk about BOB's (battery operated buddies). But we will soon.
I have started buying AA batteries in bulk from Sam's the past year, my son (18) asked one time why, because he & his sister were out of the Nintendo hand-held phase (the reason I had been buying them up until a few years ago).
I just said.. for things I need done around the house.
Thanks again for the smile & belly laugh today purple.. much needed.
H & S (18) got into it tonight.. I swear to god it was like an out of body experience listening to the two of the argue. S was calling H on every point I have called him on (except being abusive) in the past year. H talked to and treated S just as he treats me, like a dumba$$.
AFter Tuesday nights fiasco around here. S's facebook page has this for his 'status update'
A. is sad that he is more socially mature than his Father.
10:16pm
uggg... at least he can express emotion and why. Maybe he won't be so DAM?
Hey Bridge, really good job on not jumping into help DAHusband with S. My kids come to me for everything because they know I'll listen to their views, they can speak openly, then I'll think it over & get back to them. They even have a phrase that one of them started a few years ago....if I've made a decision & I'm firm, they'll say "request permission to speak freely?" lol
I promise, I was never a drill sergeant.
About BOB...rofl. Thank goodness my kids still use batteries like crazy. tee hee
Ah...see that's where I'm clever. My BOB is rechargeable *Proud smirk* so I don't have to justify a huge battery purchase! Granted, I had to dish out a lot of money for the damn thing for that 'luxury'!
Ah...see that's where I'm clever. My BOB is rechargeable *Proud smirk* so I don't have to justify a huge battery purchase! Granted, I had to dish out a lot of money for the damn thing for that 'luxury'!
You crack me up. I love the smirk.
*wonder if they make plug in bob's?*
I meant with an electrical cord outlet. LOL
ROFLMAO at SC. I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that..it would have come out my nose!
Heya SC and Bridge....can I have some of your perspective on my thread again please?
hi bridge,
Well, I see your thread has devolved quickly - maybe you should join us in the Sex-Starved and Separated Forum!
I just got back from class and was hoping you would've posted on how things went today. Let us know, okay?
lodo
Hi Bridge, Lodo, SC: Interesting! I too work at a university. Birds of a feather! All brain damaged!
hi bridge,
Well, I see your thread has devolved quickly - maybe you should join us in the Sex-Starved and Separated Forum!
WHERE is that one?? How have I missed it all these months? The forum I mean...
I just got back from class and was hoping you would've posted on how things went today. Let us know, okay?
It was emotional, there were mitigating factors with 'old friends' yesterday that made both he & I in a bad emotional place. Probably the impetus for me hi-jacking your thread about friends & consequences of WAS leaving. But we were, ironically leaning on each other for support because of their actions towards the both of us.
There really is not much to process from yesterday C session, just the emotional floodgate of going through the history of 'us' to someone who has never heard it before.
He wanted to know about how our dating went (we were 15 & 17 when we started), family history about conflict resolution (had an inward laugh at H's intepreation of that- but hey it's his POV) and how it was handled now in the relationship, the verbal abuse was never addressed.
I left it to H to bring up, he did not. When I asked him why not on the car ride, back he said "I don't do that anymore, he (the C) asked about how we handle conflict NOW."
It was interesting that the counselor never asked about why we were separated or how long we had been separated.
We got a book to read about couples communication and homework to do. We set up 6 weekly appointments.
I have grading to do today before D & I head off the golf course. She wants to drive the cart& scope out the guys, how do I tell her 'the guys' will all be 40+!
I'll guess she'll find out the hard way!
S, D, H & I are headed to a lake town about an hour away as they have one of the largest fireworks displays in the area. Sitting on the dock watching the explosions over the water is so cool.
Later
I meant with an electrical cord outlet. LOL
The plug in type.. oh my cookie where is your mind!! LOL
Yes they do by the way. and they (PIB's - plug in buddies) are expensive as well as much more noisy than the BOB's.
Inquiring minds want to know how I know these things.... welll... they will just have to keep wondering. Some woman don't buzz & tell
I guess I need to find that SS&S forum lodo mentioned!
Ahhhh, thank goodness for google & urban dictionary. Otherwise, I'd be so out of the loop. LOL
*google; PIB*
Thanks SC
taking some DBtime today to reflect after the emotional outpouring on Thursday after counseling.
it is nice to see some others lightbulb moments.. just posted overon Gypsy's asking about hers.
Sometimes counselors are so 'scripted' I want to look at them & calmly say. "Yes, I know I read the same book. I'm paying you to tell me something I read in a book 18 months ago??" The book was cheaper & had more insights.
ugg...
The love bucket thing was one of H & mine first discussion in Jan 07 when i told him how his anger & control issues were affecting me. I was so scared it took me 3 hours to get probably 5 sentances out and I think I had to write down 2, as I didn't want to verbalize them. Sort of silly thinking that if the paper told him, then he couldn't be mad at me for it. Not so much.
I had read about the love bucket years ago and tried to discuss it with him then. The analogy we use today with it (as it did seem to resonate with him after all, just not at the time)
1- Did I just kick your bucket and knock a bit of stuff out?
2- Did I knock your bucket over and is it all gone now?
3- Did I shoot holes in your bucket & not only is it drained, now you have away for repair?
3- Did I totally demolish your bucket so now you are hiding & rebuilding it?
Sometimes, now that I let myself 'feel', I have to stop and think is this a 1 or a 3? Because things seems to hurt so much again, I try and make myself think is this action he did or words he used really a bucket destroyer or am I just not used to the feelings?
I know that it is my 'choice' to feel that level of hurt, but as I said in a post earlier.. if my bucket is out there for him to fill up (the positives), it's also going to get knocked around as well (the negatives)
That bucket is new and it is tender and it is not very deep right now. I'm very, very protective of it as it has taken a lot of work to get it here and out in the open for him to 'see'.
silly analogies.. they seem to make so much more sense in my head than in type.
I like the 'Bucket List'!
Can I borrow it? I love analogies...I think h hates them. While I'd love to send it to him (cos I don't want to talk with him at the moment - even though I did ring him earlier cos I was lonely but he didn't answer) I think he'd just read it and go hmmph.
Perhaps your bucket is papier mache and it's not quite dry yet?
I love analogies...I think h hates them. While I'd love to send it to him (cos I don't want to talk with him at the moment - even though I did ring him earlier cos I was lonely but he didn't answer) I think he'd just read it and go hmmph.
Purple
i'm going to give you a quote from R. Bach "illusions"
'Argue for your limitations & sure enough, they're yours'
quit making his excuses for him
I think that's gypsy's lightbulb moment quote
Perhaps your bucket is papier mache and it's not quite dry yet?
Given the way H still fights, it's not even back to being a bucket somedays, let alone to the point of drying!
Hi Bridge, the emotional outpouring is tiring isn't it.
I think I've had 6 counselors/therapists/doctors over the years. Some had no clue & I moved on quickly. Others, like the one I'm seeing now, seems to have a crystal ball & I wonder how the heck is he so smart about me specifically. Just boggles my mind, how planned out his approach is, how he meets me where I'm at. How he changes as I grow. It's really fascinating. (oops, this isn't supposed to be about my psychologist, sorry)
I love your analogies. I don't think they're silly at all. I think you may want to wrap your bucket in those air bubble plastic wrap protective stuff for a while.
Here's what I realized (or I always knew it, I just didn't "know" it, ya know ?) just within the last few weeks or so. If I fill up my own bucket, & don't "need" anybody else to, I'm better off. Also, if I protect my own bucket, & don't let anybody else's negative crap knock mine over, or shoot holes in it...I'm better off.
Here's a short story to show an example; not long ago we were in a car accident. This other guy hit us. I morphed into a mother bear for a few moments, & wanted to rip the guy to shreds for endangering my 4 cubs who were all in the car. A while later, one of my kids says "mom, that guy called you a witch". I laughed, & said "I could care less what he calls me, he can call me an alien from another planet, I don't depend on my truth to come from that jerk (feel free to insert the name husband, neighbor, co-worker, lol)"
So......why do we push our own truth aside ( & let our bucket take on damage) just because we married the person ?
Do you feel like all the nerves are on the outside of your body ? Like you have 3rd degree burns already, & somebody comes up & slaps you on the back to say hi ?
I know that feeling. I hate that feeling. I feel for you. I care about you.
gentle warm safe hugs, & a nice cup of soothing herbal tea (if you like them)
thanks SC
it's nice to be among friends.
a brutal evening and morning with H.
we are both so stubborn. He wants to hear me, yet interrupts, cuts me off, tells me what I am or what I'm doing, yet denys that is what he said, he was just sharing his feelings..
I jump back into it, defending, reexplaining..
i keep forgetting all the explaining in the world doesn't change his 'reality'
i just keep forgetting how to do what I know I need to do...
drop the rope, hand up tell him "stop, get out of my head" etc.
then he walks out the door & I'm alone
reading purples post about as seeing yourself doing the same as you accuse him of.....uggg.. he kept telling me that over & over today... am I? Then I doubt and feel so chitty all over again.
reading Gypsy's about being the victim and running scared when another man says 'hi', how can I be worth getting to know? So I hang on to the one man who ever said he loved me.
feeling bedraggled, raked over the coals, shattered, hollow, discombobulated, regretful, sad, dismal, I feel grey.
A friend sent me this song a year ago when I moved out
It fits me today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jow7c0EVXeMoff to GAL
Sounds like you need a healthy reminder to 'pick your battles wisely'. Which ones are really important and what can you just let go?
Horsey keep your tail up....
morning bridgestone,
sounds like you're both on the defensive and wanting to be heard. I know it sounds hokey, but you can lay down ground rules for R talks to make sure both parties feel like they're being heard in a safe environment. You know - each side gets 3 minutes to explain themselves and the other person has to remain totally silent but maintain eye contact. Then end it with "thank you for telling me that" - type stuff.
I think many of us are guilty of doing the same things we accuse others of doing. We often pick up in others the things we don't like in ourselves. Difference is, for ourselves we can justify it because we have the full emotional picture in our heads. We don't have that with other person. I think my W is hypocritical for complaining that I neglected her by focusing more on my degree program but then she wouldn't do anything together because she wanted to focus on her degree program. Is there a right or a wrong there? Not sure. I neglected her, now she is neglecting me. We both felt justified and couldn't escape the loop. We both probably would go away and feel chitty about ourselves. I don't know. It's all about communication I guess.
Sorry you're feeling grey. There's an Eliza Gilkyson song - Coast - where she sings that she needs to be alone for awhile to find out whatever became of her. Then asks, did you ever think it would feel like this, the price you pay for love? The price that you pay willingly?
What bothers me about the song is that even though I'm throwing in the towel with W, will it really ever be better with anyone else? Now I've got all this baggage from years with W - wouldn't it make more sense to work it out with her? I don't know. It scares me that I can easily see myself having a button pushed inadvertently by someone else due to the way my W and I interacted - my pre-programmed responses.
I have to believe there somehow can be transcendence.
lodo
PS - have to remark, it doesn't sound, as usual, like your H is stepping entirely up to the plate. I keep finding this remarkable in your posts. Maybe at some point you need to lay it on the line and let him know that others are willing to do backflips to work on things with a partner who is at least open to it. If he can't commit to that kind of engagement, than that speaks volumes about the future of the R. Remind him that you left because you were scared and he can't get back a scared person through brusqueness. Not that that is any guarantee, but he has to shine a light back - otherwise, where's the good? What's the benefit? But no guarantees even if he does.
Hey Bridge, so sorry you're feeling so bad. I can relate, too many times, way too many times. The argument that goes in circles, cause he diverts, blocks, blames, aarrgghh !!! The interrupting used to drive me insane. Then FG explained data stream to me. It helps. If you want I'll explain it.
Have you read my tennis analogy ? It helped me walk away, drop the rope.
I'd also go get out the VAR book, & find page & paragraph of what he was doing, then I'd e-mail it to him, tell him if he wanted to talk to me, he had to re-read those pages first.
It helped.
Take care of you. Be gentle with you. Do whatever lifts your spirits, good music, good book, good movie, walking ? bubble baths ? herbal tea ? chocolate
putting on favorite jammies & crawling in bed in the middle of the day, with chocolate
The argument that goes in circles, cause he diverts, blocks, blames, aarrgghh !!! The interrupting used to drive me insane. Then FG explained data stream to me. It helps. If you want I'll explain it.
Have you read my tennis analogy ? It helped me walk away, drop the rope.
Yes please, I'd like the data stream & tennis analogy both.
Am typing the 'discounting' & "countering' paragraphs to send.
thanks for the support.
Hey Bridge, can you post the discounting adn countering on here please? I keep meaning to go over my book at night but forgetting and then remembering while i'm at work.
Yes please, I'd like the data stream & tennis analogy both.
Am typing the 'discounting' & "countering' paragraphs to send.
thanks for the support.
I mentioned to FG that it drove me nuts when h would constantly interrupt. He explained that men think in a data stream, that if it's stopped, or interrupted, they can't get back to it. Women think in more related thoughts, if we get interrupted most of the time we can get back to it. So now, if I'm talking & H jumps in with his data stream, I just try to cut him slack since this is how his brain works. I do come back in with "as I was saying" so that he realizes I was in mid-sentence. But I don't lash out with "[censored], you interrupted me again".
Tennis. This is from back in July. H would ask me to play tennis (have a discussion) he had hundreds of balls, & both racquets, & a serving machine. I had no racquet, had never had tennis lessons, & I thought we were going to have a nice fun easy game of tennis. He starts serving balls as fast as he can. I'm trying to return them. He blocks, he diverts, he smashes, he serves another ball before I can return the first one, (with my hand cause remember I don't have a racquet). I told him this analogy, & told him I was walking off the court, & he could play by himself. When he wanted a nice easy relaxing fun game of tennis, let me know. I wasn't into kill or be killed tennis. make sense ? I probably typed it better to him in an e-mail, I'll see if I can find it. It was totally drop the rope before I knew what rope was.
hugs. I have the agreement already typed onto my laptop, if you want me to e=mail it to you.
hi bridgestone,
just wanted to say thanks for the chat. It's been rattling about in my head all day - what I can remember anyway. I was in the midst of being transported to a higher plane by my soup so ...
It's funny, you read these advice books/columns/postings and everything seems so black and white. Someone either HAS given up on the M or they HAVEN'T. No grey. And yet I think the whole thing is grey, which is why it's so hard. But I don't know. Maybe by the time one spouse leaves, things are beyond repair, depending on the sitch. But it really depends on the WAS, how they communicate, and whether they've shut down emotionally or not. Would you agree? Because that determines how wide of a door the LBS has - the crack through which to display a puppet show in an attempt to gain the interest of the WAS. If that attention can be captured, the LBS can have the chance to show artistry. But not until at least a modicum of interest has been captured.
Anyway, rambling. And wondering - you never answered my question. What's different about the way you deal with forceful personalities at work (and I know how forceful those personalities can be) and the way you deal with H? Is it simply modes of interaction that have been set in stone with him?
just curious. hope your day wasn't too hot and that at some point you caught the smell of mint in the air.
lodo
Hi bridge,
it's been so long since you've posted on your own thread. everything okay?
Hi,
It's been a long few days. there have been many interactions with H. Some positive, some not so much.
I have started implementing more & more of the techniques advised by P. Evans in her VAR book. It has him off-kilter, which has led to many more confrontations as he has tried to reassert his power and find his footing.
He has complained I am leaving him 'no place to stand' in our interactions.
I said you can stand anywhere you want, I'm just not goning to let you stand on my neck.
Today he went to passive aggressive mode by making us 10 minutes late to MC.
MC was ok, the C made some points from the communication manuals that I have been trying to get him to see for years...
the concept that the non-verbals matter.
The C said that research shows ~90% of a message is interpreted by the listener through the non-verbals of the speaker- the tone of voice & the body langauge the speaker has.
if the non-verbals & the words don't match the listener believes the non-verbal time after time, regardless of the words said.
H was very down on himself after C., very woe-is-me. It was hard to watch him hurt. But it was a relief to have some validation from somewhere for the requests I' have made to him in the past and been told I'm just too sensative.
In the past I would have rushed in to reassure him in some way shape or form to assuage the pain I would have assumed I caused. this time I did not, I listened, I validated, I held his hand.
This behaviour is cyclical for him : confrontation/abusive interactions, apologies- down on himself, 'normal interactions', then back to confrontation.
He can hurt & I do not have to assume responsibility for it. Logically I know that, getting it through to my emotional reactionary center is taking time.
it seems easier for someone else to tell him something that will hurt him (the counselor in this case, a piece paper that I wrote things on when we first had the bomb talk) than for me to. I suppose it is still fear of the emotional reprucussions of his hurt back to me.
We go back to C this upcoming Tuesday a really quick turn around. We have much homework to do between now & then. It will be interesting to see if he makes time for it as his job is quite busy right now... sort of a 'make hay while the sunshines' type of job. I reminded him how his choices a year ago to work and continually put of MC, was one of the straws that broke that camels back. I guess we'll see.
I have the kids this week-end (as I have for the past 6, even though there have been 3 of them that have been his week-ends) His job again. S18 even mentioned that Dad has not seemed to want them around much. He seems more content to come get them take them out for movie/supper/fireworks etc. then go back to his house. I probably should ask the kids how they feel about that, or not.. I hate to put ideas in their heads.
Thanks for checking on me
BS
<<This behaviour is cyclical for him : confrontation/abusive interactions, apologies- down on himself, 'normal interactions', then back to confrontation.
Hi Bridge, my H did a similar cycle, almost every 15 days like clockwork. If you can chart it on a calendar, then show it to C, then maybe C can help him see the cycle.
Hang in there, you're doing great. Especially the part about not rushing in to ease his pain. I used to do that constantly too. Ugh !
hugs
Hi Bridge
Been lurking a few days, following several threads with interest.
I'm over in Newcomers but your H 'cycle' sounds similar to my H.
Can't figure out how to insert my link yet. I'll work on that.
Also, Hus prefers not to read much. Dyslexic. Responded well to the article on WAW Syndrome. We are going to the bookstore this week to look for an audio book.
While some of your interactions are positive, and others not so much, I'm smiling for you that your sitch has not stalled. Peace.
hi goldey..
thanks for the support.
My H uses Audible.com for his audiobooks. You can download right away & start to listen.
I know he has gotten some of chapmans books (5 love languages) from there. I don't know if any of Michelles are available from there or not.
I"m reading controlling people by P. Evans and need to look for that on there for him. I have thought about asking him to listen to me read it. We did that on an anniversaryt get-away once with Mars/Venus. That was helpful to him. Maybe that could be one way the two of you connect?
Keep us posted on your progress and welcome to a very supportive place for your sitch.
Peace
BS
Hi SC
thanks for the support and word of encouragement. Maybe I'm pinning too much on our inability to communicate effectively. Maybe my C & I have me convinced of working on the wrong thing.
My logic has been how can we work on the marriage foundation (as who we both are now) until the negative emotions are really dealt with, and how can we deal with the negative emotions until there is better communication?
He has not gone back to counseling at all since Oct. one phone call consult supposedly right before xmas when we had a huge blowup. The tools he has for anger management issues are still what they were then. Ugg.. I still can't make him do that. I have told him I was still going and I would like him to return to IC as well.
the MC asked last week if he was regularly seeing someone.. he said no, the counselor had that 'mmmm.. i see" look and tone of voice. You'd think he'd get it.. but there in lies the difficulty, he just doesn't!! Or if he does he just doesn't want to act on it. Either way I can not change that. I just need serenity to accept it...
OK.. I need to get busy on my schoolwork.. last week of class, but LOTS of grading of course to stay current on.
Peace & serenity to all.
hey Bridgestone...i just wanted to tell you that i love your quote. it's so true in so many of these circumstances...
Thanks Neil!
I have recently acknowledged to myself that I am a quote collector. I have them on my frig, on cards, in books, in my head, on sticky notes on my computer.
I like how they can succinctly say what would take me pages & still not have the clarity the quote does.
I collect them because something in them resonates with me at the time. Songs are the same way... lyrics from songs can bring me to tears, even ones that I have not heard in decades.
I agree, courage & tolerance are both desirable traits to life's journey no matter where on that path you find yourself. Sometimes the trickiest part is to deicide if you are in the majority & need tolerance, or in the minority & need courage.
I"m conflicted about your quote.
I want the 'ease & acceptance'from others that I was able to try, and failed. Yet, I was raised with the parental attitude of "If you can't do it right, then don't do it at all". Yoda, sounds like my Mom. LOL
Thanks for stopping by.
Peace
Bridgestone,
I have not read all of you sitch but is seems you h has very low self asteam. He is making you responsable for his happiness. Wanting you to make promises you may not be able to keep in reguards the future of your M.
My W told me this was part of my problem. I allowed people to dictate my life to me. My W, people at work, kids, family members. Once I stopped allowing other people to run my life and do it myself, my confidence went up.
This might be why your H works so many hours. Is he a person that likes to please everybody. If so he is alot like me and will need to stop doing that. He needs to learn to do what is best for him and not what others want him to do all the time. He will be clingy and need approval from other people until he does.
He seems so afaid to fail that he is living in a constant state of fear and that is very unattractive and puts way to much pressure on you and your R.
This is JMO but it is what I was doing. Did you get the book "How to improve your relationship without talking". It goes into more detail about this. You would find it useful.
\
This might be why your H works so many hours. Is he a person that likes to please everybody.
His job is a family-owned business that he manages. So essentially he is self-employed. The long hours are the nature of, not only the type of business it is, but also his role in that business. But he does not manage his time well and admits this.
He says he is a people pleaser.. yet he does not, to me appear to do that for those he is close to, in fact in the past 5 years it appears to me that he has even actively (or passively) resisted doing things for the kids & I when we have asked. He says he tries to make everyone happy.. yet in doing so appears to make no one happy, including himself.
And he has admitted to being a work-aholic, yet does not seem to me, to be doing much about it. He has tried some things, but when push really comes to shove, the business takes priority, over the kids, over the R, over me, over his health, over friends.
I try to rationalize as "this is how he shows us he is a 'good dad/husband', by providing more"
but as I made the mistake of pointing out to him once... if you define being a good dad by only providing for them.. what kind of dad will you be once the kids are no longer dependant on you for the financial needs being met? He got very very angry.
Did you get the book "How to improve your relationship without talking". It goes into more detail about this. You would find it useful.
funny you should ask I was just on the Amazon website ordering that and Love without hurt.
I really appreciate the suggestions and encouragment.. thanks!
Bridge
i think sometimes people take my quote the wrong way...... its not that you can't fail. You can. the bad thing is if you don't try because you'll never know if you could have succeeded. That's why its "Do or Do not"..... there really shouldn't be a middle ground...why give a half hearted effort (try) with something so meaningful? The end result will be fulfilling (regardless of the state of your M) because you WILL be a better person for this sitch.
Make more sense now?
Yeah.. still sounds like my mom.. who was also notorious for adding to the front or back of the prior said comment
"quit doing it half-assed"
the problem this created for me.. was I let her define what half-assed was. I thought I was doing my best, she got to decide otherwise. That was probably the start of me letting others define me. I never was taught to say.. 'that was my best effort' and have it be ok. If it didn't meet her expecations... it was 1/2 assed.
But yes.. Logically, I totally get what you're saying
emotionally.. I'm working on it!
bridge
He says he is a people pleaser.. yet he does not, to me appear to do that for those he is close to, in fact in the past 5 years it appears to me that he has even actively (or passively) resisted doing things for the kids & I when we have asked. He says he tries to make everyone happy.. yet in doing so appears to make no one happy, including himself.
This is what happens to people pleasers. We try to please everyone and nobody is happy and we get even more unhappy and than the anger sets in because we feel we are a failure. We hate letting people down but in actuality by not taking care of our needs we cause our own unhappiness thus causing the people around us to be unhappy. And the going out of his way to not do what you and the kids want is classic push against shove. Its all in the book.
And he has admitted to being a work-aholic, yet does not seem to me, to be doing much about it. He has tried some things, but when push really comes to shove, the business takes priority, over the kids, over the R, over me, over his health, over friends.
He uses his work to try and make himself feel worthwhile. He feels this is the situation he has the most control over and if he is sucessful at work than everything else will be ok.
I try to rationalize as "this is how he shows us he is a 'good dad/husband', by providing more"
but as I made the mistake of pointing out to him once... if you define being a good dad by only providing for them.. what kind of dad will you be once the kids are no longer dependant on you for the financial needs being met? He got very very angry.
You questioned his manhood and hurt his ego. You were just asking him to spend more time with you and the kids. What he heard I can't do anything right, nothing I do will please you.
He has the 1950's mentality that I bring home the money you take care of the house and kids and all will be fine. By questioning it he felt like a failure and lashed out at you. We have very fragile egos its hard to explain and you probably will never understand but trust me it gets hurt very easily. Than we clam up and shut down.
It was a missunderstanding. You meant A he heard B and both of you got defensive. Read HTIYRWT as soon as you get it. You will will understand what I am saying better.
He does not understand that him spending time with you and the kids is more important and more rewarding than having money to do stuff. You need to bring this up in a non accusing manner in MC.
Hi Distressed..
yes we have misunderstandings galore in our R.
We are in C for communication help.
I understand what you mean by I 'attacked his ego'.. he does place a huge value in himself in being successful in his business. And he is very good at it.
I try to affirm him for the things I want to see him do differently.. taking time off work, interacting with the kids outside of the 'have to have them talks' (which is hard given that we don't live together, but I try), listening attentively to me, initiating things to do & conversations.. etc.
Trying to do that as well as implement some things I need for boundaries in what was/is a verbally abusive relationship is also hard to do.
I'm looking forward to reading the book when it gets here.
Thanks!
Bridge
Counseling was an interesting mix yesterday.
H had not 'written out' his homework. He does not like to write, probably less than he likes to read. It's not like it was a 5 page paper, it was writing out emotions, thoughts, actions, sensory data, & wants on a pie chart. Maybe 6 words per slice.
The counselor took him to task on it. H laughed it off, tried to smooth it over.. I thought about meeting the C's eyes to get a sense of what he thought, but I did not. I felt frustrated that H didn't take the time to work through it in a way that the counselor said we would get the most out of it. It makes it appear that while he is going to C. he is not putting the time into working on what we both decided needed priority.. communication.
Other than that I thought it went well. We used a 'talking wheel mat' to be able to say what we wanted. If you weren't on the mat, you couldn't talk.
C. asked me what it was like to have H just listen. I said it was weird. He asked me why and H interrupted and said, because I always interrupt her. The counselor said, oh really?
It was a pleasant car ride up and most of the way home. Until I caught him in a lie.
I tried to give him room to fess up, admit it, I didn't blow up, I didn't get defensive, I just kept stating the facts..I heard you say, I saw you do, then I heard you say... trying to give him a place to start from to reconcile the differences for me.
He sort of admitted to it and then it just got ugly after that. He grabbed my cell phone to see who I had been calling & texting. (just the usual suspects- there is no OM). I calmly let him do that and said "I consider this a violation of my privacy. I have nothing to hide, but it will take time to rebuild this trust you are violating with your actions right now".
He snapped the phone shut and dropped it back onto the console between the seats.. it hit the parking brake and broke the battery cover.. ugg. I just counted to 100 and resolved that I would pay for a new one from the joint account.
I dropped him off at his place, went in to get my D who was coming back to my place for her softball game later.
She was not ready to go, so I told him I would listen(using the talking mat) to him all the way through.
it just deteriorated into a blame game and defending his actions and how it was not a lie to him, it was a 'pretense to see how I would act when I found out' and 'omission of fact'. I said I will not willingly engage in game playing.
And I left. He followed me to the car and asked what he was suppose to do with D. I told him that me taking her with me to my place was a favor for him(it was... he had asked me on the way to C if I could take her back with me so he could do some extra work before her ballgame). I was rescinding that favor since he was being nasty and playing games.
He called me a bi$%ch and told me to go play games with someone else.
I sat in my car during D's ballgame, alternating between watching the game and crying. My dad finally came to the car and asked me what was wrong.. I tried to give him the nutshell version, his recommendation was to cut my losses, file for D, and get on with my life. That was very much in my mind all night.
I am still throwing that idea around in my head this morning.
H texted early (5:30am) and said he 'would give me the gift of silence if that is what it would take for me to be happy'.
I have not responded. A 180 for me.. I almost always pick up the phone when he calls, answer his texts, etc.
I have to meet a man about adopting my foster dog this morning. Then I have a paper to work on for school. It may be a while before I get back to him... what's a good rule of thumb? 24 hours? 6 hours?
ugg...
Bridge
Hey,
This is disheartening to read. Bridgestone, I know you're trying to be open to working on your M but your H just sounds like an opportunity-squanderer. Doesn't realize/think about what he's doing. Emotionally reactive.
My W did the same thing with C. After I found a C, found a time that worked for both of us, and got us there, she couldn't be bothered to make any effort. Didn't think about our homework etc.
But we were in different positions - she was the WA, not me. The way you and your H interact make it sound like he left you rather than the other way around.
His emotional outbursts, well, that's mature huh? He didn't apologize about breaking your phone and offer to replace? His text this AM sounds like another really mature action.
Sorry. He sounds like an ass. He certainly acts like one.
I'd give it at least 24 hours if not more. And if you have the time (and maybe you've already done this), I'd make a seriously reflective and detailed pros and cons list. Helps to see things in black and white.
lodo
bottom line, i guess, is that it takes two people working together. you have to decide if that is happening, or if you think it ever will.
Rude, controlling, and unacceptable. Unfortunately I have never been good at enforcing boundaries so I have nothing to offer. Sorry.
My question is - how did your moving and the kids being away affect the family business that H manages? prior to your leaving did you all work together as a family effort? Just wondering if he is under even more stress now without your help and lashes out in anger and being at a loss how to deal with you all being gone.
Hi Lodo
thanks for the thoughts.. a pros & cons list is not a bad idea. I had one a year ago before I left. I should see if I can find it and compare.
The way you and your H interact make it sound like he left you rather than the other way around.
The thought that has been going through my head: IS this how LBS act when the WAW comes back? Is my agreeing to go to counseling for communication enough of an inroad to him that he now gets to 'let down' on the changes he had showed me he had made? To let his hurt & anger out about me leaving? Or is this just more of the same?
While he has always had an element of arrogance, rudeness & controlling to him.. what I'm seeing now has more of an 'edge'.
His emotional outbursts, well, that's mature huh? He didn't apologize about breaking your phone and offer to replace?
Nope.. he just gave his usual exasperated 'huff' and said.. "just like everything else I touch, it gets 'f'ed' up."
He has called twice now.. i have let it go to voicemail but he has not left a message.
God this makes it hard to concentrate on that paper with any coherent thoughts...
double uggg..I think I'll go have some ice cream!
Bridge
Rude, controlling, and unacceptable. Unfortunately I have never been good at enforcing boundaries so I have nothing to offer.
I'm bad at it too..
My question is - how did your moving and the kids being away affect the family business that H manages?
Despite the FIL & MIL's worries that I would tear it apart, I have done nothing other than continue to sign lines of credit so it can operate as usual. And it has.
prior to your leaving did you all work together as a family effort?
No.. neither child ever showed interest in it beyond the initial 'spend time with Daddy at work' stage. He is a task master and relentless in his expectations. He did not make 'working for him' a pleasant experience, the employee turn-over demonstrates that.
He blames me for turning them off to this inherited, multi-generational family operation. He does not see his actions as having any effect or take into account both of his children are extroverts...working the isolated long hours he does would kill S & D.
I have helped out only when it was a crisis situation, week-ends, holidays, as I had my own fulltime job. So my leaving and not having the kids around really has no impact on him having more work at work.
Thanks for the support!
Bridge
The thought that has been going through my head: IS this how LBS act when the WAW comes back? Is my agreeing to go to counseling for communication enough of an inroad to him that he now gets to 'let down' on the changes he had showed me he had made?
I'd say no. At least, from the sitches I've read and my own experience. When MWD talks about it, it's in the context of the betrayal of infidelity, i.e. once the A is over the LBS has to deal with the feelings of betrayal. I'd think that when there's been no infidelity, the LBS realizes things weren't working and now it's time to work hard to turn the R around. That doesn't mean "letting down." Look at smartcookie's H - that's how I'd imagine it. that's how I was 9 years ago when W and I got back together. Sure, things weren't perfect, but we were both trying and working on it and trying to understand what the other needed.
he just gave his usual exasperated 'huff' and said.. "just like everything else I touch, it gets 'f'ed' up."
It's still all about him. He's got some waking up to do. In a big way.
lodo
Hey Bridgestone..
Can I ask what exactly did he say here... " H laughed it off, tried to smooth it over.."?
If you remember.
and
"it just deteriorated into a blame game and defending his actions and how it was not a lie to him, it was a 'pretense to see how I would act when I found out' and 'omission of fact'. I said I will not willingly engage in game playing."
I am assuming he was on the mat.. and he was blaming you for his actions.. or did you two start back and forth communication again? There is some hope here.. I just need to kinda picture it in my head.
How are you by the way.. beyond this stuff?
I did see your request to look at the other stitch.. I am making my way through my list.. I really do need more time.
((Bridge))
How you continue is more important than how you start. You can either be captive to a less-than-stellar past, or captivated by the promise of a bright future. Always remember that your life has meaning. The biggest threat to your future is not drugs or disease; it is a lack of self-esteem. Take your success seriously if you want others to respect you.
This is a quote from a friend of mine, the mediator who I worked with last year after I walked. In case you missed it, I'll repeat his wise words, which speak to me:
How you continue is more important than how you start.
I think I'm somewhere between you and Cookie. My Hus didn't call me a b*tch, but I'll bet he was thinking it. We've certainly had some whopper arguments both before and after MC sessions. This week has been nice for us, but when I read your post, I know that this honeymoon isn't going to last forever. I need to work on my self-esteem so I'm strong for whatever my future holds. My H, like yours, is impossible to work for. IMO, he has unrealistic expectations and has turned the Blame Game into an art form. He is a DAM, and this week we've had a mini-breakthrough with his interactions w/ kids. They've noticed he's acting different, but are not sure what to make of it.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, just wanted to let you know you're not alone. Peace.
Rude, controlling, and unacceptable. Unfortunately I have never been good at enforcing boundaries so I have nothing to offer.
I'm bad at it too..
Ditto.
Hi Forrest.Thanks for stopping by.
C. asked me what it was like to have H just listen. I said it was weird. He asked me why and H interrupted and said, because I always interrupt her. The counselor said, oh really?
I can't remember
exactly what he said. I'm much better at his non-verbals.. he had his nervous laugh, his toe scuffing the floor action, hands crossed behind his back. Something to the effect of
"I'm terrible at just listening" "I almost always jump in (or interrupt - can't remember he's exact word usage here) before she's done"
I am assuming he was on the mat.. and he was blaming you for his actions.. or did you two start back and forth communication again?
He was on the mat talking & had worked his way around the wheel with his thoughts, emotions, actions, etc. then when I checked what he meant (giving it back to him) is when he kept butting back in and defending what I was giving back to him.
So I retried again re-stating what I had heard him say, and so on & so forth.
It was at some point along there that he gave me the 'the only reasons I lied about the phone calls to Scott about the tickets was to see what you would do when you found out about them".
I had asked him Sunday, if he had
seen Scott about the tickets to a band that is playing nearby this week-end.
He included in his 'action' statement that:
You had asked if I had 'seen' scott on Sunday & i hadn't, I had "talked" to him on the phone.. so I really wasn't lying.. it was just answering the question exactly as you had asked it. It was just omission.
So I checked again: "So do I understand you to say that your lying was deliberate to see how I would react? and that you understood what I was asking when I asked about
seeing scott for the tickets and you choose to omit that you had
talked to him on the phone.
He said yes, and that's when I said I was not in this to play games and that's when I left.
Thanks for any insight. I'm nearing the end of my rope with this and we haven't even started 'dealing' with the really hot topic issues of the R.
Other things are OK. Getting S ready to head off for college, working with my foster dogs, and on things for school is keeping me busy.
I have not seen the other person back on since I had nudged you about him.. so you maybe be able to cross that one off your list of 'to-do's!
Peace
Bridge
IMHO you H has not woken up to the fact that he has contributed to the problems in your M. He sees you as walking away and does not understand that his actions and inactions have caused you to take this drastic action. He belives that you are the problem not him.
He is lashing out at you and not doing his homework because in his mind he is not the problem.
I understand what he is probably thinking because that is what I thought for a long time. It was my W fault we did not get along, she was moody, unhappy more than likely depressed. Until I realized how I had failed her and ignored not only her needs but my own that I saw how I contributed to our current situation. My anger was because of my inability to make myself happy, it was just easier to direct it at her than deal with believing that I was the problem.
I am not trying to excuse his actions, he is being immature but just trying to let you know what he is probably thinking.
Until he wakes up and sees that it took both of you to get to this point and stops blaming you for leaving him you will have many more MC sessions and interactions like yesterday.
JMO but again he sounds like where I was over a year ago. Hopefully a train hits him and he wakes up like I did.
Good luck.
IMHO you H has not woken up to the fact that he has contributed to the problems in your M.
Funny thing is..
If you'd ask him why we separated (as the counselor did on Saturday) he'll tell you "Because I was verbally abusive" Now granted this is the only time I have heard him admit that to anyone but me. He can talk the talk.
He 'owns it' in his words, I'm just not seeing a change in new actions under conditions that he gets angry and frustrated and hurt.
He belives that you are the problem not him.
He has repeatedly made statements lately (hear sarcasm in this tone)... Oh sure, here we go again.. the ONLY problem in the room is "H's name". Like you are sooo perfect."
He is lashing out at you and not doing his homework because in his mind he is not the problem.
uh.. mmm... and here I thinking all along that it was because he didn't care enough about 'us' or me to do it.
JMO but again he sounds like where I was over a year ago. Hopefully a train hits him and he wakes up like I did.
This is a year after I have left. This is progress for us believe it or not. Well, maybe it's progress for me... I never would have had the guts to share my feelings & thoughts in the room, because of some of his changes, my increase in self-confidence, and having my own 'safe' place to retreat to when things go badly.
What was your 'train'?
thanks for keeping up & your perspective.
Bridge
I'm just going to throw something else out there ...
I don't think this is all "Bad H. Bad, bad H."
He clearly feels threatened and is trying but doesn't see how to make it to the other side. He probably feels like he comes under attack even though he's doing the best he can, which results in defensiveness and posturing.
He knows he's letting you slip away and he doesn't see how to hold on. He doesn't understand he needs to attract rather than pull.
Not saying this makes everything okay. Just something that probably should be acknowledged.
Hmmm - seems like this post is ripe for dog analogies.
lodo
Several things woke me up.
1) I told my W that I was going to give up anger for Lent in 07. She shot me the dirtyest look I ever saw from her. That started me thinking.
2) The ILYBNILWY speach on 6/17/07
3) Going to C by myself and starting to really control my anger.
Once I got that under control it was like a blind man being able to see. I saw all that I had done and did not due for her, myself and the M. Unfortunately she had checked out long ago and was talking to OM and I have been in the fight of my life since.
Don't know what to say about you H but he needs to realize how lucky he is that you are working so hard to save your M. I am doing all the work and not getting alot if feed back from her. She wont even go to MC so its a guessing game for me.
Keep doing what you are doing I hope he comes around.
Hi, just popping in. Your H frustrates the heck out of me. Have you ever wanted to say, "you can mince words like a 4 year old, or you can grow up & be a man, & work on our marriage!".
Hugs.
Hi Bridgestone,
I've been reading a lot of your posts and I grealty appreciate what you say. I would love it if you could give me some insights regarding my sitch when you get a chance.
Thanks so much!
B
OH Bridge...I'm struggling to not slap your h upside the head.
My h would (and possibly still does) use the old 'I said I hadn't seen him, but I did talk to him on the phone' crap and then use that as telling the truth when he answered 'no' to your question of 'have you see him?'. It infurates the crap out of me. Cookie!!! What do you do when they do this??
I am reeeeal cranky with your h at the moment. Trying to think of what to say that is not just emotion.
((((BS)))))
How's about using the LRT on him?
Hi all,
Thanks for your support. I am confused and struggling again today. I feel fractured, splintered, torn, and splattered.
Whenever I assert my thoughts and feelings of our situation he defends & denies them. It got ugly again last night and he said why should I listen to you, why should I be nice?? if you won't meet my LL (physical touch).
He chose to call at 4:30am to go through the talking wheel on that subject and then immediately wanted me to do it to on the same subject. When I said I couldn't, that I thought it was unfair to call up out of the blue like this esepcially when I was sleeping and ask for completeness in thoughts etc when I was half asleep I found incosiderate. Then I was called the b%4ch again for not caring enough to do this with him. ugg.
I don't think I can do this anymore. I want off this crazy ride.
"he had his nervous laugh, his toe scuffing the floor action, hands crossed behind his back. Something to the effect of
"I'm terrible at just listening" "I almost always jump in (or interrupt - can't remember he's exact word usage here) before she's done" "
2 things..
The nervous laugh, random actions, and the hands behind the back.
Clear sign that where he is.. is not "important". Now I used the "" cause I don't want you to apply the normal definition of the word. He feels that the things that he is being asked to do is not going to result in any thing other than what he has heard before. Liken it to a smart kid in school.. He/She knows the topic that is being taught.. and does not really need to pay attention.. that usually leads to some type of "distraction". I can almost guarantee that your husband does not have a communication problem. I think you implied he was a successful business owner. When you throw that in on top of how a man talks it can get really confusing.
The comment he made is just quite simply confirming what I am saying. He has taken the class and is learning nothing new. You are dealing with someone that has turned the switch off. The body is there.. the mind is thinking about.. football or something. Now.. what you have to understand here is the "teacher" (C) is not making the class exciting enough.. or doing something new that will get his attention. You confirmed it a bit with hoping to catch the C's eye to see if he agreed with you. Look the C should be looking for way's to make it fun and exciting for both of you. If he is agreeing with someone.. its time to find a new one. Or communicate to the C that maybe we need to try something different.
Just food for thought.
"He was on the mat talking & had worked his way around the wheel with his thoughts, emotions, actions, etc. then when I checked what he meant (giving it back to him) is when he kept butting back in and defending what I was giving back to him."
The idea behind the Mat Talking.. is to put a starting point and a stopping point to the conversation. It is not meant to be used as a podium. The key to its use is you have to know when to step off and when not to step on. Example.. he gets on mat and spouts off. Retain the most important point in the spouting.. just one point. You step on and address just that one point.. and step off.
I will be back.. work calls.
I think he is the king of the DAM's Club. He needs to realize that being aggressive, angry and always defending his position is going to do the exact oposite of what he wants.
Calling you at 4 in the morning is a control issue. He knew you were asleep but wanted to try and prove either to you or himself that he still has control of the situation.
Wanting you to meet his P needs is idiotic, I told my W months ago that I will not persue ML until she feels commited to the M. How will forcing someone to do something they do not want to improve your sitch. DAM!!
I have no idea how you can get thru to him. His skull is so thick and thinks that he is right and you are wrong. Until he realizes that he needs to bend and compromise and you need to do the same that going forward is going to be very tough.
Again, He has no idea how lucky he is that you are working so hard, I wish that my W put in half the effert you are putting in. I hope you keep it up ad maybe he will smarten up. There just seems to be so much anger in him.
Try and have a good day.
Hi bridge,
I'm sorry you find yourself in this confused state. Take the time and space you need.
Maybe it's time for the after-the-LRT. MWD writes about it in the Infidelity section, but it's meant to address a situation when a spouse refuses to give up their damaging behavior even while acknowledging it.
He sounds frustrated and despondent and trying to pressure things back to a place he knows - where he's in control.
If you're really at the place where you're seriously contemplating filing for D, before you do so it might be worthwhile to let him know that he is trying to beat you back into the M and that is only driving you further away. Tell him you care about him but can't live this way so you're prepared to let go. And then back off completely
MWD writes that this means not spending time together, not talking on the phone unless it's about the children, no emails. Essentially, let him know that there won't be any relationship at all if he continues doing what he's doing. and then back off completely.
But as MWD warns, don't be prepared to do this unless you're really ready to end things, because it can very easily end in D.
I think all of us agree, though, that you've been a willing participant in addressing the issues that drove your M to this point. The burden of proof rests on him.
lodo
hey bridgestone,
just sending out a message of support.
lodo
From me too!!!
((((((Bridgestone))))))
Bridgestone,
I have a couple of questions and please don't take offence to them. Just need to understand a little better.
1) If you left and your H is being so reluctant to change why are you working so hard to save the M?
2) Do you still love him or are you trying to figue that out before you call it quits?
3) Why does he feel that you were/ are verbably abusive?
4) Does he do anything other than work? Play a sport, hang with friends, have any type of fun?
5) Do you guys have any fun together or is it always tense when your together?
6) Has he always been angry and controlling or has it happened slowly over the course of the M?
7) What do you do for fun on your own?
Did you get the book from Amazon yet? Just want to know what you think about it.
Again just trying to get a feel for where your at and he sounds like me over a year ago and it might help me understand my W position a little better. And if you have answered these questions before, sorry but I forget sometimes with all the sitches on DB that I read.
Have a great weekend, I'm off to NY to see "Wicked" with W and kids.
Bridgestone,
I have a couple of questions and please don't take offence to them. Just need to understand a little better.
1) If you left and your H is being so reluctant to change why are you working so hard to save the M?
I left because it became physically & emotionally unsafe for me to stay and work on the M. He went to a few counseling sessions for his anger after I left and then stopped & has not been back. And he has made some changes that have been enough for me to quit walking away, yet not consistantly or regularly enough to walk back into the M.
2) Do you still love him or are you trying to figue that out before you call it quits?
I love him as a person, I don't have the intimacy physically, emotionally or mentally with him that I want with a partner. We have both changed and grown apart. His anger has driven a wedge between us physically & emotionally, his lack of pursuits outside of his job has kept us from growing together mentally.
3) Why does he feel that you were/ are verbably abusive?
I think you read that quote I posted about the Counseling session wrong.
He was admitting to being verbally abusive.
4) Does he do anything other than work? Play a sport, hang with friends, have any type of fun?
nope- male friends of his, were spouses of the female friends of mine. They have little in common other than their wives were friends.
Xbox360, surf the internet for products & services related to his business as well as some porn.
5) Do you guys have any fun together or is it always tense when your together?
We have found some ways to relax and have fun in some activities in the past few months. Wine tasting, bike rides, geocaching, comedy club.
6) Has he always been angry and controlling or has it happened slowly over the course of the M?
He has always had a 'temper' and yes he has always been controlling. It has gotten much worse over the past 7 years as I have been pursuing my graduate degree and have asked him for support around the house and involvement with the kids.
7) What do you do for fun on your own?
Bike, geo-cache, play online poker & cribbage, go for walks, foster dogs, learn new things for DIY projects in my house, go for rides in my car, enjoy music, plan vacations, talk with friends, spend time with my kids,
Did you get the book from Amazon yet? Just want to know what you think about it.
It's due to be delivered on Monday. Money is a bit tight right now so I did not use the 2nd day shipping option, so it was shipped from 125 miles away and taking a week!
Again just trying to get a feel for where your at and he sounds like me over a year ago and it might help me understand my W position a little better.
Have a great weekend, I'm off to NY to see "Wicked" with W and kids.
Thanks for asking and for your insight. I hope Wicked & the trip is good. I'm hoping to get tickets for my D & I when it comes to our state late next year.
Peace
Bridge
gee bridgestone, I think you're about to lock your first thread. A milestone.
So you took a little time. What did you think about? What did you do?
Did you resolve anything within yourself or do you find you have nothing to say?
We care about you and want you to be happy.
lodo
I wanted you to know I am reading, just don't feel I have much to offer...
Stay strong
Hugs
K
Hey (((Bridge))),
Just checking in on you.
Hugs.