Separated and sorting #3

[unchien]

Link to old thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2864157&page=1

[unchien]

MLC - I am definitely going to bring up my desire to have a weeknight dinner with the kids in our next MC session.

I had a good talk with a D'ed friend of mine yesterday. He went through an amicable D, then 2 years later wanted 50/50 custody and it got as nasty as it can get. His advice was that once I'm ready to D, whether or not I feel prepared to do 50/50 today, I have to go for it if I want it in a couple years.

I can continue to be patient for now, provided I get that break within the 10 day gaps.

R2C - Interesting you suggest self-education. I have bought several parenting books in the last few months, my W seems to have no interest. I am taking a 7-week parenting class starting in a couple weeks on my own initiative. I had my car seats inspected on my own initiative. I'm not trying to make a big show of it, I'm doing things I think will benefit me and my relationship with my kids.

Hrt - I had a good IC session yesterday to help me sort out the MC goals. Next week is our first MC session after a 1 month break during which my W intended to work on herself and see if she is ready to work on the MR. I am skeptical that she will ever come around.

HOWEVER... we do have a lot going on and these sessions can be useful for co-parenting, provided my W does not turn them into "child safety class." We are still at a fragile stage where our texts and conversations are littered with triggers and we have difficulty working through logistics. So I feel some MC is important to help us with communication. Unfortunately, the sessions often veer away from working together as a team, and instead turn to accusing me of failing to live up to some arbitrarily high parenting standard that does not go both ways.

My intent is to raise this problem in the next MC session as well -- that it is not serving my needs to be put down and accused of being a bad parent when we go to these sessions.

In other words, I am okay if we continue MC provided we are working towards at least one of 2 goals:

1. Working on the MR
2. Working *as a team* on being better co-parents

[unchien]

Journal ~

Noteworthy GAL updates since separation end of June:

- I've been surfing about once a week. It's like meditation on steroids. I am going to invest in a thicker wetsuit so I can continue as the water cools off.

- During the pre-BD day anxieties I lost about 10lbs. I am naturally skinny, so at that point I was gaunt. I started hitting the gym about 2 months ago, and I've put back on the 10 plus another 5. I'm lifting heavier weights than I did after college. It feels great.

- I have almost finished a kitchen table for my rental house - just need to finish the finish. I built the table-top from scratch, sanded it, stained it, and added some hairpin legs. It will be the perfect size for me and the kids, and also a nice desk when I am home alone.

I still find myself with a lot of free time to fill. I'm checking out a men's group that meets Thursday nights (not sure if I will stick around), and starting a parenting class for 2 months in a couple weeks. A co-worker invited me to bar trivia nights, but it conflicts with the class. Maybe once the class is over I will join.

[unchien]

Journal ~

Great weekend with the kids, took them to the beach yesterday. We didn't bring swimsuits as we weren't planning to swim, but I let them get sandy and wet in their clothes - they had so much fun. I feel so much more relaxed parenting them on my own, not trying to meet my W's expectations in parallel.

We exchanged D3 when I dropped the older 2 off at school today. W casually mentioned she has stopped IC for a few weeks, due to having trouble finding child-care for D3. We also were supposed to follow-up with a financial advisor on what temporary spousal support calculations would show, and my W seemed to suggest maybe in October we could do that.

I'm not emotionally triggered by either of the above. I find it to just be further confirmation she prefers the status quo.

If we were at 50/50 custody and a reasonable financial arrangement, I feel like I would be okay continuing in limbo for quite a long time. As it is, the imbalance in both arrangements does not work for me. We have MC in a couple days, this will be something I need to bring up. Otherwise I expect another "Let's meet again in a month" type of a session. Maybe legalizing this separation will be the way to go.

[IronWill]

Great weekend with the kids, took them to the beach yesterday. We didn't bring swimsuits as we weren't planning to swim, but I let them get sandy and wet in their clothes - they had so much fun.

Great to hear, U! Sometimes kids just gotta be kids

I'm not emotionally triggered by either of the above. I find it to just be further confirmation she prefers the status quo.

Good to hear your detachment is progressing and things seem to be evening out for you. That's one of the most difficult things about S.

From everything I've read here and other places, these things take years to resolve. I'm finally beginning to understand what the vets say when they talk about this being a "marathon". It truly is. It's different in ways for each of us. the best way I can think of it now is "settling in for the long haul"

If we were at 50/50 custody and a reasonable financial arrangement, I feel like I would be okay continuing in limbo for quite a long time. As it is, the imbalance in both arrangements does not work for me. We have MC in a couple days, this will be something I need to bring up. Otherwise I expect another "Let's meet again in a month" type of a session. Maybe legalizing this separation will be the way to go.

Would there be any necessary reason to legalize the separation? IMO If it's not necessary I wouldn't bring it up - it seems like pressure towards an outcome from my position, but again I'm no lawyer here and I dont know how that would affect any potential future dealings.

Sounds like things have evened out for you, U - I'm glad. Keep focusing on you and your kids

Take care buddy

[unchien]

Would there be any necessary reason to legalize the separation? IMO If it's not necessary I wouldn't bring it up - it seems like pressure towards an outcome from my position, but again I'm no lawyer here and I dont know how that would affect any potential future dealings.

Well I'm starting to get worried about custody and finances.

On custody, I would like to be at 50/50 in 2 years. However, I don't want to D, and then later try to adjust custody. I may need to consult a lawyer if establishing precedent for many months during a trial separation will make it more difficult if I need to advocate for 50/50 later.

On finances, we are spending more than I bring in, and my W is slow to go back to work. We do have a fairly large savings base, but it is not a tenable situation. The numbers are ugly. A year of separation would take another 3 years to dig out of. That kind of thing.

The pressure on both fronts is not currently felt by my W. She does not really grasp the financial hole we are digging in the way that I do. That's all good and fine - I don't want custody or money to be the reasons she wants to reconcile - but facts are facts and this situation is not workable long-term.

To your main question... If I felt ready to push to legalize the separation, I would probably just file for D.

Like most of us here, I feel like I've dropped the rope, but I'm sure there is an invisible thread I'm still hanging onto, and that may become evident at any time. I do think a lot lately about moving on. Maybe I have negative sentiment override now, but I look back at the last several years of our MR and see a controlling, high-strung, emotionally unavailable W, and I just cannot go back to that.

[IronWill]

On finances, we are spending more than I bring in, and my W is slow to go back to work. We do have a fairly large savings base, but it is not a tenable situation. The numbers are ugly. A year of separation would take another 3 years to dig out of. That kind of thing.

The pressure on both fronts is not currently felt by my W. She does not really grasp the financial hole we are digging in the way that I do. That's all good and fine - I don't want custody or money to be the reasons she wants to reconcile - but facts are facts and this situation is not workable long-term.

Yeah I agree with you on the finances thing. My W did not feel any repercussions until about 6 months ago. Then it hit hard - naturally, because I stopped problem solving for the both of us with temporary solutions and credit line consoldiations, which is how I juggled things during bad times and kept us above water for 2 decades.

I also don't want this to be the sole reason for Recon though. It is untenable for me right now, which is why I work 60 hours a week and am looking for a second job.

If you can, try to mitigate this sooner rather than later. Its a regret that I have - hopefully you can arrange something before it becomes a real problem (trust me it can get worse)

To your main question... If I felt ready to push to legalize the separation, I would probably just file for D.

Like most of us here, I feel like I've dropped the rope, but I'm sure there is an invisible thread I'm still hanging onto, and that may become evident at any time. I do think a lot lately about moving on. Maybe I have negative sentiment override now, but I look back at the last several years of our MR and see a controlling, high-strung, emotionally unavailable W, and I just cannot go back to that.

I thought I had dropped the rope but every once in a while something happens that makes me realize I'm still holding on to a thread. I dont think this ever completely goes away though. Gotta keep working at it.

I would recommend being careful that your emotions of upset or anger aren't causing you to rethink the past. It usually falls somewhere in the grey area - good times and also bad times. Otherwise we wouldn't put up with long term MR's and we wouldn't be here discussing how to potentially save them, right?

I believe it is possible, to build a new R, with our S's- but only after they have processed whatever it is they are going through, if they are ready and willing to work on themselves and also a new R, if the damage isn't too great, and if we are ready to forgive them.

Moving on...for me I guess that would be a life alone. For quite some time. It's not something I look forward to, but it would be absolutely necessary so I would be certain not to make the same mistakes over again. Also, I think I would need a lot of time to think about things and do the things that I want to do without having to compromise with a new person's agenda.

Not much would change on my end - I know what I want to do and I know how to get there. I see no reason to change what I want to accomplish in life due to my W wanting to leave (and for a while around BD i thought i had to do that)

What would moving on versus not moving on look like to you, U?

[MLCxH]

Like most of us here, I feel like I've dropped the rope, but I'm sure there is an invisible thread I'm still hanging onto, and that may become evident at any time.

From what I see, you have not dropped the rope. You are loosening your grip, but I feel you have a long way to get to dropping the rope.

If I felt ready to push to legalize the separation, I would probably just file for D.

I sometimes feel that you are swinging between extremes. Stay in current limbo situation or file for D. There is always a middle ground. The problem I see is that you are not standing up and asking for what you need, even when the ask is something that is reasonable. I have said this before, but I feel you are letting your wife set the rules and you are accepting them, defending yourself for not following the rules at times. Ask for what you deserve first and ask firmly before thinking about D.

[unchien]

MLCxH,

Thanks. It is a NG tendency to operate between 2 extremes - I can either accept my W's terms, or file for D. I know there is a middle ground, and thank you for calling me out on this. Filing for D would be using a sledgehammer to drive in a nail.

[LH19]

U,

You’re BSing yourself. You can decline child safety class and not file for D. You can tell your W you are not going to go ten days without seeing your kids and not file for D. You can tell your W you are not updating her every 2 hours when you have the kids and not file for D.

She has called every single shot in this process.

[unchien]

Journal ~

Just got back from MC (1st time in a month)

- I pressed for getting some time with the kids during my ten day gap. W agreed. This was my #1 goal of the session and I'm really happy about it.

- W said she feels like I am always saying "No" to her requests. Interesting because I feel like I am more than reasonable. I pointed this out, and the counselor talked her through how she is likely experiencing the "no"s stronger than the "yes"es.

- W brought up a recent situation where she felt unsupported by me. The counselor talked her through this and pointed out that she just didn't ask for what she wanted. She assumed I was going to read her mind. I assumed she wanted space so didn't offer what she apparently wanted. There was a lot of this during the session. He said something along the lines of "Expectations are reservations for future resentments."

- W started to get emotional and said she was worried about what would happen if she didn't do right by me. The counselor talked her through how she needs to go to IC to sort this out, that there's nothing I can do other than sit and listen openly (which is exactly what I did).

- W implied I may be having "house guests" at my house. Obviously she was fishing, and I was a little bewildered that her mind would go there.

- We agreed to limit our weekly calls to 30 minutes tops.

In short, zero work towards working on the MR. We scheduled something for middle of next month.

Couple triggers for me during this session:

- W said we moved up here for my happiness and my job. This is not entirely true. We could not afford the lifestyle she desired in our old city. It was a joint decision. She appears to have erased this from her memory.

- W said she was afraid given how scary I was to her on a daily basis when we lived together. I was surprised to hear this. Part of her narrative, and if she's unwilling to talk it through there's nothing I can really do.

I'm not sure what to do with all of this. I can't help her get over the abuse narrative or whatever is going on in her head. I can just let her work on herself, just like I am working on myself. It frightens me how a potential D would go, given her mindset.

[LB55]

U

Glad to hear that you asked for and got what you wanted in terms of the kids.

Just keep on keepin on, do the best you can with the kids, and be the best man you can be. That is all you can do. Worrying about how it would go is useless. If you D, it will go how it goes. You can control you and your emotions and reactions, just like right now. Take good notes, each day with the kids, what you did, etc...so you can remember later when something comes up about how you never do anything fun with them or whatever.

I'm not on here much right now, checking in once in a while to see how folks are doing. Nothing changed on my front so not much to report other than more anger. When asked why I am not included in kids events at school(she didn't tell me about them so I couldn't go; found out from the kids after the fact), she told me its because I parked the boat crooked behind the garage. CRAZY I tell you!

Stay strong,
LB55

[Traveler]

Hi Unchien,

Sounds like a successful co-parenting session. You got your time in the middle of the 10-day stretches, and most issues the MC said were hers to deal with in IC--"Expectations are reservations for future resentments." Since she cancelled her IC sessions, I suppose she feels no urgency in resolving those.

Was there any discussion about your reporting your whereabouts during custody?

I agree her fear of you, even if completely unwarranted, opens you up to craziness during the divorce. As you say, not much you can do about that except to be a great dad and then deal with it if/when it happens.

[unchien]

Glad to hear that you asked for and got what you wanted in terms of the kids.

Just keep on keepin on, do the best you can with the kids, and be the best man you can be. That is all you can do. Worrying about how it would go is useless. If you D, it will go how it goes. You can control you and your emotions and reactions, just like right now. Take good notes, each day with the kids, what you did, etc...so you can remember later when something comes up about how you never do anything fun with them or whatever.

Thanks LB55 - I have been lax on the daily journal and need to keep on top of that, as you suggest.

I'm not on here much right now, checking in once in a while to see how folks are doing. Nothing changed on my front so not much to report other than more anger. When asked why I am not included in kids events at school(she didn't tell me about them so I couldn't go; found out from the kids after the fact), she told me its because I parked the boat crooked behind the garage. CRAZY I tell you!

That is absolutely crazy -- I also get triggered when my W does things which she would not be allowed to do post-D (for instance, school and doctor appointments, etc.). Sorry to hear you are going through that.

Sounds like a successful co-parenting session. You got your time in the middle of the 10-day stretches, and most issues the MC said were hers to deal with in IC--"Expectations are reservations for future resentments." Since she cancelled her IC sessions, I suppose she feels no urgency in resolving those.

Was there any discussion about your reporting your whereabouts during custody?

I agree her fear of you, even if completely unwarranted, opens you up to craziness during the divorce. As you say, not much you can do about that except to be a great dad and then deal with it if/when it happens.

CW - It's unclear if she canceled IC, or just couldn't find someone to watch D3 while she goes (which is nuts, because she could have asked me and I probably would have flexed my work schedule to watch D3). Even more triggering is that my W points to a gap in February where I skipped a few sessions as a reason to be "scared" of me.

There was no direct custody discussion. When I brought up the 10 day gap, the MC said it was not healthy for kids to go that long without in-person parenting time. My W's response to this: "Yeah, it's hard going 4 days with them. And the 10 days only happens sometimes." I immediately re-directed: "Actually our schedule IS 4-10, so 10 day gaps will be very regular."

Your last point is so right... I can't address her fear. Amidst my frustration and my own fears, I have a kind of sadness for her. She has chosen to blame me for everything, and it is an awful way to live.

[unchien]

CW - I didn't completely answer your question about the custody/whereabouts.

It was mentioned briefly in the session, how my W got upset because I was not updating her one day what I was doing with the kids, but we resolved it without escalation. I had basically said, "You're right, I'm sorry, that is something I had agreed to, I'll do better next time. I also hope we can talk about when we can wind this down." And that was that.

The MC session veered almost into a 1:1 between the counselor and my W, with him pressing her quite a bit, and I felt like giving the space for that to happen. It felt important.

They were dancing around the issue that she mind-reads me all the time and assumes extremely negative things. I was sitting there listening quietly. The MC handled this all extremely well - he was indirect about it, but getting his point across. I'm not sure it will stick, because my W is fully engrossed in this idea that I am some scary monster.

A couple thoughts came out of this:

1. W is not having these insights in her own IC. My guess is she has further entrenched herself as the victim. Not really my problem, but just an observation.

2. It's all fine and good to sit and wait for my W to change (and I have seen no signs to date) and go to these sessions and have the MC point out little things, but I'm not sure it's really doing me any good.

[MLCxH]

Journal ~

- I pressed for getting some time with the kids during my ten day gap. W agreed. This was my #1 goal of the session and I'm really happy about it.
.

I am happy for you! Glad you spoke up and asked for what you wanted.

Not really my problem, but just an observation.

Yes, you cannot control her. She has to work out her issues on her own. Just be sure you continue to speak up for yourself and don't let her feelings deprive you of your rights

[IronWill]

Hey U - just caught up on your sit. Good for you sticking up for what you wanted with custody - glad to hear it

It's all fine and good to sit and wait for my W to change (and I have seen no signs to date) and go to these sessions and have the MC point out little things, but I'm not sure it's really doing me any good.

Unfortunately it is going to take a whole lot longer than a couple of months. I think that's what the vets mean when they say this is a marathon. I think that's also why they say to consider the M dead at BD, and recommend not going to MC. However, if W is not going to IC, at least she is still open to going to MC. So I would view that as a positive, even if she is doing IC in MC (I hope that makes sense? Lol)

Neither you nor I nor anyone can change someone's perspective, especially in crisis type situations. They have to figure it out on their own. We can be sympathetic, empathetic, try to see things from their perspective, etc ad nauseum, but at the end of the day it is that person that has to pull themselves through it. Nobody else can.

Hope you have a good weekend, U - get some good GAL in there

Take care man

[crdcheck]

Hey U, will echo others and say that I'm glad that you have more time with the kids.

Your comment about your W feeling the "no's" more than the "yes's" resonates so much. My W is convinced that I treated her like a doormat for our entire relationship and that she never got anything she wanted. It's patently insane but, as you've said, there's nothing you can do yourself to change her mind.

I LOVE your "Expectations are reservations for future resentments." quote. Sums up many of my/W's relationship issues.

Hope you've got some good plans for this weekend.

[unchien]

Journal ~

I've been GAL'ing like crazy this weekend, but finding myself really triggered today.

My W is off with the kids out of town this weekend.

- She did not tell me she was pulling the kids from school both Friday and Monday for this trip until I asked.
- After giving me a hard time about car seat safety, she told me S7 has been riding without a car seat all weekend.
- We have 2 credit cards for stores that have very high balances this month, and I don't know why. These are both cards my W pays. One of the stores I did not use at all last month.
- She withdrew a fairly large amount of cash, an amount above which we agreed we would notify each other. She never notified me.

The financial stuff is frustrating - I went online to pay a bill and was not snooping.

The stuff with the kids is also frustrating.

My thoughts are:

1. We have a follow-up with the financial advisor this week. This may be the best venue for me to address my financial concerns.

2. I think my W and I should be communicating regularly for doctor appointments, school things, etc. and not waiting for a 1:1 call which happens every 1-2 weeks. A short update is helpful.

3. The car seat safety thing I am going to let go. Just because she would hold my feet to my fire if I did that, I am not going to go tit-for-tat.

Any feedback is very welcome... I want to be able to stand as long as I can, but this current setup is not helping. Maybe that means a formal financial separation, I'm not sure.

[DS9]

Hey U,

Sorry to hear about the ongoing drama with your XW mate. I'm not wholly familiar with your sitch, but is it fair to say your XW is a very difficult and angry person?

The school thing is grating for me, as it would be for you. If its something that would have been done if you were still together, let it go. If not, then raise it in the mediation.

Car seat - I think you should follow this up too. Its a safety issue, and may be unlawful where you are to have children that age travel unrestrained. Maybe have a look of incredulity and say something like "S7 told me she was riding without her booster seat. I didn't believe it as I know how cautious you are, but just thought I'd let you know what he told me". See what XW says.

CC - raise this at the financial advisor and follow up with an email. I'd look at a formal financial settlement and be done with the worry.

Good luck mate. Cheers, DS

[unchien]

Hey DS -

The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role. She talks a lot about being scared and frightened of me. She gets upset if I stand up for myself calmly. I have worries about how D will go, as I assume we are heading down that path at this point.

It's almost as if she assumes I am high-conflict by nature, so she is on guard and protective and feels like she has the right to do whatever she wants. My opinion is that she is high-conflict by nature, so I am on guard by making sure I don't poke the sleeping bear. What has happened is I have given way and tried to minimize the conflict. The fact is, I have to face the conflict, but given my W's intense fears and insecurities I want to be careful about it. She has thrown around words like "abuse" and "PTSD" often in MC, and frankly I worry she will do the same thing in a divorce proceeding. I am not worried about defending myself, as I believe I have nothing to worry about, but I am not looking forward to the process.

As a simple example, a few weeks ago she asked for an extra weekend night for the kids because her friend was visiting. This was one of my weekends. I gave it to her. Then she asked to do something to extend her extra day until the evening. I said "no"... that's it. Calmly. She got angry and emotional about it, and even brought it up in MC as feeling like I am not being amicable.

The whole thing is disappointing. Because of her intensity, we have minimized conversations and, as a result, we are not even co-parenting effectively (in my mind). It would be nice to talk every 2-3 days just to make sure we know what's going on with the kids, for instance.

The only thing that is working for me right now is having space and time to work on myself. Everything else about this separation is not working particularly well - the kid timeshare, the finances, the threatening overtones when my W talks about her fear, the inability for my W to understand I am trying to work together on fair compromises with her - it's really getting me down.

[HopeCA]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe you need to err on the side of being firm but really softening the message. Your W may be completely wrong about you and vilifying you, but as they say, her perception is her reality.
I know that I get triggered when I get a plain “no” response.
Would it work it cushion it a bit so that there is no way any sane person could say you were being anything but amicable? For example “Sorry, no that won’t work for me.” ?

To be clear, I mean this for your sake, your sanity in communicating with her/co-parenting and your protection in the event of D proceedings.

[unchien]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe you need to err on the side of being firm but really softening the message. Your W may be completely wrong about you and vilifying you, but as they say, her perception is her reality.
I know that I get triggered when I get a plain “no” response.
Would it work it cushion it a bit so that there is no way any sane person could say you were being anything but amicable? For example “Sorry, no that won’t work for me.” ?

To be clear, I mean this for your sake, your sanity in communicating with her/co-parenting and your protection in the event of D proceedings.

Thank you for the feedback, I think it makes sense.

For the example I mentioned, I did say more than No. I think I said something to the effect of, "No that doesn't work for me, I already gave you one of my nights to you and I would like time with the kids." When pressed she will put me on the defensive.

Your point about softening my messaging is well-taken, though. I will explore ways to do this.

One thing I have tried is the positive lead-in, or pos-neg-pos sandwich. For instance, I may text her:

"Hope you are having a good time with the kids. I wanted to remind you we need to discuss XYZ so we can firm up our schedule."

The little positivity seems to help. It goes against strict DB advice, but I consider it acceptable because I am not looking for a reconciliatory reaction out of her.

[DS9]

Hey DS -

The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role. She talks a lot about being scared and frightened of me. She gets upset if I stand up for myself calmly. I have worries about how D will go, as I assume we are heading down that path at this point.

Ok mate, I fully get your drift. My XW is like that too, but hasnt said she is scared or frightened of me thankfully. Was this her attitude too when you were married, or is it new since separation?

This is tricky to handle. You'll need to make the call if this is just bravado on her part in wanting to control the situation. For me, when my XW and I discussed finance split and exchanged offers, I stood firm on what money I wanted (it was a fantastic deal for her anyway), and simply told her "I'm firm on my position". She ranted, raved and told me she hated me, then a few days later accepted I was immoveable.

I'd try the minimalist approach to responding (without things like 'hope you're having a good time...") and see how she reacts, let it wash over you like waves smashing a granite shoreline, then wait a day or so to see if she changes.

If she says she's 'scared' of you, ask her to tell you what about you scares her so you can understand where she's coming from. Then stand back, gesture for her to talk, and adopt a neutral, contemplative stance.

[IHCLACS]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe you need to err on the side of being firm but really softening the message. Your W may be completely wrong about you and vilifying you, but as they say, her perception is her reality.
I know that I get triggered when I get a plain “no” response.
Would it work it cushion it a bit so that there is no way any sane person could say you were being anything but amicable? For example “Sorry, no that won’t work for me.” ?

To be clear, I mean this for your sake, your sanity in communicating with her/co-parenting and your protection in the event of D proceedings.

Thank you for the feedback, I think it makes sense.

For the example I mentioned, I did say more than No. I think I said something to the effect of, "No that doesn't work for me, I already gave you one of my nights to you and I would like time with the kids." When pressed she will put me on the defensive.

Your point about softening my messaging is well-taken, though. I will explore ways to do this.

One thing I have tried is the positive lead-in, or pos-neg-pos sandwich. For instance, I may text her:

"Hope you are having a good time with the kids. I wanted to remind you we need to discuss XYZ so we can firm up our schedule."

The little positivity seems to help. It goes against strict DB advice, but I consider it acceptable because I am not looking for a reconciliatory reaction out of her.

I've had these types of exchanges, and for the both of us it could come across as willful and defensive on both parties digging in their heels. I've learned when something doesn't work for me or vice versa that usually stating a "no" in the form of a question helps. Tone delivery plays a big role in it too... “Sorry, no that won’t work for me.” ? Sounds defensive, pre meditated and willful. I try... Keyword.. Try...to deliver those responses like "I'm sorry that isn't going to work for me because of XY and Z...Is there a more comparable solution we can come up with and agree upon?"

I used to get and give the "No that doesn't work for me." Response all the time in the beginning of my sich. Its irritating and again willful.

I get these from my STBXW all the time: "Hope you are having a good time with the kids. I wanted to remind you we need to discuss XYZ so we can firm up our schedule."

Still irritating to me because it is W's way if constantly trying to remind me if stuff, I've already given thought on, planned on, and already have a handle on. I typically don't respond to these responses until hours later, when I have the clear ability not to react to it. I try to look at it from a different perspective that they're making a request in a polite and amicable fashion rather than trying to be your coordinator.

Hope this helps.

[IHCLACS]

Hey DS -

The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role. She talks a lot about being scared and frightened of me. She gets upset if I stand up for myself calmly. I have worries about how D will go, as I assume we are heading down that path at this point.

Ok mate, I fully get your drift. My XW is like that too, but hasnt said she is scared or frightened of me thankfully. Was this her attitude too when you were married, or is it new since separation?

This is tricky to handle. You'll need to make the call if this is just bravado on her part in wanting to control the situation. For me, when my XW and I discussed finance split and exchanged offers, I stood firm on what money I wanted (it was a fantastic deal for her anyway), and simply told her "I'm firm on my position". She ranted, raved and told me she hated me, then a few days later accepted I was immoveable.

I'd try the minimalist approach to responding (without things like 'hope you're having a good time...") and see how she reacts, let it wash over you like waves smashing a granite shoreline, then wait a day or so to see if she changes.

If she says she's 'scared' of you, ask her to tell you what about you scares her so you can understand where she's coming from. Then stand back, gesture for her to talk, and adopt a neutral, contemplative stance.

Yeah my STBXW is scared of me too and has given specific reasons because of my former reactivity to irritating situations, so now I choose not to discuss things in person unless absolutely necessary. All by email. This way emotions aren't high, and there is a record of what was said this way there are no memory issues on both our parts.

I think these former high emotional and willful reactions are based in individual perceptions as skewed as they may be. I think it is a mix of protecting yourself and being bravado when someone is scared or hurt.

[MLCxH]

The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role.

This is a common thing in many sitches. You can only control what you can do and not what they feel.

It is not surprising that she thinks that you are being difficult when you don't agree with her or give her what you want. WW/WAS often tend to be selfish and feel a sense of entitlement.

What I found is that you need to look out for yourself. You cannot try to nice them or be afraid to say what is right because you are afraid of their reaction. Not saying you need to pick fights, but you cannot shy away from doing or saying the right things because of fear of a confrontation.

You saw what happened when you spoke up and insisted on changing the schedule with the kids. You had many reasons to be afraid your wife would say no and would get confrontational, but speaking up and being firm was the right thing to do. I hope you can learn a lesson from this experience.

If I can offer you one advice based on what I have seen for the past several weeks in your sitch, it would be this:
You cannot allow W to set the rules and then complain that the rules are unfair. Stop complaining privately, speak to her and work with her (or the MC) to set rules that are fair for both of you.

[unchien]

Hey DS -

The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role. She talks a lot about being scared and frightened of me. She gets upset if I stand up for myself calmly. I have worries about how D will go, as I assume we are heading down that path at this point.

Ok mate, I fully get your drift. My XW is like that too, but hasnt said she is scared or frightened of me thankfully. Was this her attitude too when you were married, or is it new since separation?

This is tricky to handle. You'll need to make the call if this is just bravado on her part in wanting to control the situation. For me, when my XW and I discussed finance split and exchanged offers, I stood firm on what money I wanted (it was a fantastic deal for her anyway), and simply told her "I'm firm on my position". She ranted, raved and told me she hated me, then a few days later accepted I was immoveable.

I'd try the minimalist approach to responding (without things like 'hope you're having a good time...") and see how she reacts, let it wash over you like waves smashing a granite shoreline, then wait a day or so to see if she changes.

If she says she's 'scared' of you, ask her to tell you what about you scares her so you can understand where she's coming from. Then stand back, gesture for her to talk, and adopt a neutral, contemplative stance.

Yeah my STBXW is scared of me too and has given specific reasons because of my former reactivity to irritating situations, so now I choose not to discuss things in person unless absolutely necessary. All by email. This way emotions aren't high, and there is a record of what was said this way there are no memory issues on both our parts.

I think these former high emotional and willful reactions are based in individual perceptions as skewed as they may be. I think it is a mix of protecting yourself and being bravado when someone is scared or hurt.

I don't know at what point my W was scared. There is a chicken-and-egg nature to how our situation evolved. When we moved 2 years ago, it was very disruptive. My W became withdrawn and depressed and distant, and our relationship suffered. I felt like I tried to meet her needs, but I also started to try to express my needs. Our intimacy fell off a cliff, which was a problem for me, and I tried to initiate conversations about it, but just in raising the issue my W felt blamed and shamed. I felt like she didn't care about my feelings, and instead she started to complain about almost everything - housework, kids, her career. I made changes to try to help her, but it felt like the more I tried, the more she pointed out problems. I had some resentment as I felt she was making no effort on her side to listen to what I had to say. I started to question whether she loved me, and on one occasion got fairly histrionic about it as I was looking for reassurance and she had none to give. I regret how I handled myself, and can see how she would experience it as me being wildly unpredictable. I was never verbally or physically abusive, but I did cry. By the time I pulled over the car in March to try to have a conversation with her (a terrible decision on my part), I was sure that she was thinking about leaving the marriage.

I don't minimize my role in what happened. I do think that we triggered each other. My W's extreme distance and unwillingness to have an open conversation, combined with my fear of abandonment and NGS issues, created this toxic stew. She experiences it as me being unpredictably emotional at times. This has scared her. She feels abused. I experience her as a controlling, cold, domineering person. I've come around on my issues quite a bit, but I don't feel she has.

I would have loved to talk about the episodes that have fed her fear in MC. She has not been willing to discuss so far. I wish we could have a mature adult conversation about it, where I could take my responsibility for what happened, rather than have my W letting her mind race and go to dark places. I have noticed when she does mention things, certain details have changed to the point they are untruthful, and it alarms me.

Here's an example: Back in May, pre-BD but while I was DB'ing, one of my GAL activities was to play guitar at night in our guest area. As this area is soundproof, it didn't wake up the kids, and sometimes I would sing. My W took this as me losing my marbles.

This is a big rambling mess of a post. I don't think she is using fear/abuse as a strategy to control the situation intentionally, but it certainly does feel very controlling on my side.

[unchien]

The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role.

This is a common thing in many sitches. You can only control what you can do and not what they feel.

It is not surprising that she thinks that you are being difficult when you don't agree with her or give her what you want. WW/WAS often tend to be selfish and feel a sense of entitlement.

What I found is that you need to look out for yourself. You cannot try to nice them or be afraid to say what is right because you are afraid of their reaction. Not saying you need to pick fights, but you cannot shy away from doing or saying the right things because of fear of a confrontation.

You saw what happened when you spoke up and insisted on changing the schedule with the kids. You had many reasons to be afraid your wife would say no and would get confrontational, but speaking up and being firm was the right thing to do. I hope you can learn a lesson from this experience.

If I can offer you one advice based on what I have seen for the past several weeks in your sitch, it would be this:
You cannot allow W to set the rules and then complain that the rules are unfair. Stop complaining privately, speak to her and work with her (or the MC) to set rules that are fair for both of you.

MLC,

Your posts are really helping me sort things out, thank you.

I am not trying to nice my W back. I am trying to nice my W so she does not steer things towards a contentious and litigious D. I need to stop the "nice" strategy and be firm and calm and cordial and fair, as you are advising.

MC is a mess and I think I know why. We are mixing "marriage counseling" with "separation/co-parenting coaching." My W's fears become leverage for negotiating all of our terms for the separation (whether or not she is doing this intentionally doesn't matter). I have played into the fears, and like you keep advising me it's time to stand up for myself. I'm working on it. The counselor himself played into the fears for the first month or two, and he has stopped doing this.

The concept of "fairness" is hugely problematic for us. As I see it, fair would be something like:

- Work towards 50/50 custody in a couple years
- Financial separation where I help my W get on her feet so she can be self-supporting.

My W would see the above as me being controlling and abusive and cold. As she sees it, ANY agreement that does not involve me continuing to support her lifestyle is an example of me being abusive and controlling. Frankly I think she could continue in separation indefinitely -- any move towards D is going to make her life worse. On the other hand, I feel like I am giving and giving and giving, and not seeing much reason to stay invested at this point.

All the above being said, I really appreciate you pointing out that I don't need to take the nuclear option to deal with this. I can continue to make small stands for myself.

[MLCxH]

MLC,

Your posts are really helping me sort things out, thank you.

You're welcome, U. I know how difficult it is getting through this and I am happy to help.

I am not trying to nice my W back. I am trying to nice my W so she does not steer things towards a contentious and litigious D. I need to stop the "nice" strategy and be firm and calm and cordial and fair, as you are advising.

Yes, as you said you need to stop the "nice" strategy since it does not matter why you are trying to "nice" her. Stay cordial and be reasonable at the same time. There is a middle ground between trying to "nice" her Vs being contentious

MC is a mess and I think I know why. We are mixing "marriage counseling" with "separation/co-parenting coaching."

Are you surprised by this? When you first talked about going to MC many months ago, your main goal was to get the BD instead of being in limbo. After that your justification for continuing MC was 'co-parenting' coaching even though many pointed out that you were in "marriage counseling" but your W has no intention of working on the MR. You probably need to take another look at setting clear goals with the MC and avoid confusion on mixing goals.

The concept of "fairness" is hugely problematic for us.
/quote]

You won't like this, but I feel that what 'you' think is fair does not count for much. IMHO, approach the negotiations as if you were pursuing a D and look at what would be considered fair by a court of law. If you eventually file for D, that is what the guideline would be anyways. If you happen to R, then the terms of separation won't matter at that time anyways.

[quote=unchien]

All the above being said, I really appreciate you pointing out that I don't need to take the nuclear option to deal with this. I can continue to make small stands for myself.

Yes, it is easy to think of extremes but there is always a middle ground. Even if you file for D, you will need to find middle ground in lot of things such as mediation. You still need to maintain some sort of relationship with your W since you have kids together, so going nuclear is never helpful.

[DS9]

Hey U is there any value in raising her ‘fear ‘ directly at mc as a topic to sift through and resolve, with you actually raising it as something you wish to discuss to assist her in overcoming it? Or is she just useing it to hold onto as a proverbial ace up her sleeve? You may find out if you raise it.

[AlisonUK]

I don't know at what point my W was scared. There is a chicken-and-egg nature to how our situation evolved. When we moved 2 years ago, it was very disruptive. My W became withdrawn and depressed and distant, and our relationship suffered. I felt like I tried to meet her needs, but I also started to try to express my needs. Our intimacy fell off a cliff, which was a problem for me, and I tried to initiate conversations about it, but just in raising the issue my W felt blamed and shamed. I felt like she didn't care about my feelings, and instead she started to complain about almost everything - housework, kids, her career. I made changes to try to help her, but it felt like the more I tried, the more she pointed out problems. I had some resentment as I felt she was making no effort on her side to listen to what I had to say. I started to question whether she loved me, and on one occasion got fairly histrionic about it as I was looking for reassurance and she had none to give. I regret how I handled myself, and can see how she would experience it as me being wildly unpredictable. I was never verbally or physically abusive, but I did cry. By the time I pulled over the car in March to try to have a conversation with her (a terrible decision on my part), I was sure that she was thinking about leaving the marriage.

I don't minimize my role in what happened. I do think that we triggered each other. My W's extreme distance and unwillingness to have an open conversation, combined with my fear of abandonment and NGS issues, created this toxic stew. She experiences it as me being unpredictably emotional at times. This has scared her. She feels abused. I experience her as a controlling, cold, domineering person. I've come around on my issues quite a bit, but I don't feel she has.

I would have loved to talk about the episodes that have fed her fear in MC. She has not been willing to discuss so far. I wish we could have a mature adult conversation about it, where I could take my responsibility for what happened, rather than have my W letting her mind race and go to dark places. I have noticed when she does mention things, certain details have changed to the point they are untruthful, and it alarms me.

Here's an example: Back in May, pre-BD but while I was DB'ing, one of my GAL activities was to play guitar at night in our guest area. As this area is soundproof, it didn't wake up the kids, and sometimes I would sing. My W took this as me losing my marbles.

This is a big rambling mess of a post. I don't think she is using fear/abuse as a strategy to control the situation intentionally, but it certainly does feel very controlling on my side.

Thanks for your posts on my situation, unchien. I thought I'd come back and check in on yours.

There's a lot about what you said in this dynamic that resonates with me. I have been - and still am, in many ways, afraid of my H. I don't know if he'd say he felt controlled by my fear, but I suspect he does and I suspect he feels I use it as an excuse to avoid talking about things I don't want to talk about. He's said before that he thinks I get emotional unless I hear exactly what I want to hear. From my point of view, I feel emotional and hurt when he is argumentative, dismissive and unable to show some empathy, even if he fundamentally disagrees with my perception or is not able or willing to give me what I want.

I think what I've found difficult to understand is that he is also afraid of me! He's a large, well built and solid man. He bends to get through doors. I am short and slight. When he says he is feeling overwhelmed or upset, it LOOKS like anger to me. He goes blank faced sometimes and *stares* in a way I find very aggressive and upsetting. It looks extremely sinister and confrontational to me.

We have been talking more recently and he's shared that in those moments, when I see 'anger' and 'threat' and 'sinister silence' what was going on inside for him is that he was overwhelmed, scared and flooded and is 'cutting out'. He'd told me that when I am tearful and upset (I am never aggressive - I don't threaten violence physically or verbally or by gesture, but in the past I have cried a lot) he feels trapped, overwhelmed, and like he is never ever going to be able to get away unless he does whatever it is he thinks I want him to do to stop me crying. He in his own way felt very fearful of and controlled by my emotions.

We're not at the place where we'd do MC together, but what he doesn't seem to understand that in those moments of upset I want empathy, not compliance. That it is okay by me if he says 'no' but not okay by me if he says 'I don't care'. And caring and complying are entirely different things.

I don't know if any of things rings a bell or is remotely useful to you in your situation. My H was raised by a woman who was very loud and emotional and amongst sisters who are very loud and emotional so there may be childhood stuff for him that does not apply to you and your wife. I was raised by a violent and angry father - which will also play its part in how I perceive him and why I feel fear so easily. There may also be a 'Mars and Venus' thing going on in the way we express emotion and what we want to achieve in our interactions (he gets angry because he thinks I want him to fix things and he can't, I don't want him to fix things but want some compassion and contact which doesn't happen when he is angry - we trigger each other, as you said) that might also apply to you - though I'm loathe to reduce human beings to their gender.

I hope this helps and I wish you well.

[unchien]

Alison -

Your post resonated so strongly that I'm not sure exactly how I want to react. Our situations are not identical by any means, but I do gain some understanding of my W's mindset from reading your posts, and how perhaps she is viewing me.

The biggest difference I see is that you have self-awareness and that has enabled you two to have some open, honest conversation. Regardless of what happens in your MR I think that is a really positive development for your co-parenting.

[unchien]

Update ~

I haven't been drawn to the forums recently. Work has ramped up, life is busy, and all that is good. I had a great weekend with the kids.

Two weeks ago, my W agreed to work with me to arrange some parenting time for me (e.g., dinner with the kids) during my 10 day gaps. I brought it up this morning during our drop-off, as the kids were asking me when I would see them again. I have asked W 5-6 times in the last 2 weeks to let me know a good day or time for this. I also think it's always good to let the kids know the next time each of us will see them - this is like Separation/Divorce 101 advice for parents.

She responded really annoyed, and said, "So I'm just supposed to sit in my car outside the restaurant?"

Me: "No. I can drive the kids back your house after we finish" (the house is remote, but I don't mind).

Her: "I just feel like I'm sprinting a marathon running the kids around every day, and then there's this extra thing now.... And you can just leave work early to do this?"

Me: (holding back any reaction to this) "Absolutely."

Her: "OK we can talk about it tonight" (during our 1:1 phone call which she has avoided for the past 3 weeks).

I'm incredibly frustrated. No child development expert would say 10 days without parental contact with my kids' ages would be appropriate. My W committed to this two weeks ago. And when I'm trying to work with her, without getting emotional, she starts complaining how hard her life is.

I am trying really hard to follow MLCxH's recent advice - basically, try to handle my business and get what I want without resorting to D. And I know how most of us here focus on not taking the D step, this is D Busting after all. But some of these interactions with my W remind me of how controlling she was earlier in our MR too, how I let things slide, and how much it really bothered me then also. She has been projecting and mind-reading me for at least a year now, I feel like her description of me is like a completely different person than who I actually am. I just don't know if I could ever go back. I don't know why I'm even standing anymore.

[LH19]

U,

This is where you man up and hold your ground. She doesn’t call tonight you call her and say you said we would talk about it tonight. Who gives a fuch if her life is tough, part of the consequences. It’s not D or bust there are in betweens. It starts with you getting what you want and what is fair. She’ll be pissed but she will secretly respect you for it.

School yard moment when you stand up to the bully.

[LB55]

I agree with LH here, life is tough for her because of her choices. She likely won't see it that way but stand your ground.

When I read your post above, you keep asking her for a good time or day to do this. Given that she always feels busy, there will never be a good time or day. Thus you don't get an answer.

Perhaps you could give a couple of options that work for you and let her pick one that she can make work too? Don't let her not answer or avoid the topic, stand your ground as this is important to you. Maybe she comes back with an alternate proposal; either way you get what you want.

Just don't be obviously eager to accept her proposal even if it is exactly what you want. A person likely shouldn't accept the first deal a car salesman pitches to them even if they would be willing to take it right that moment; they still take some time and think about it to see if the salesman will come back with a better offer to move the feigned indifference into a business deal. At least that is how I do it. :-)

[unchien]

Thanks LH19 and LB55.

What frustrates me is that I know some days do work better than others for her, due to kids' after school activities. She has not been particularly forthcoming on these schedules (LB I think you shared a similar experience recently in your thread).

[LH19]

U,

She’s not going to give into your requests because she doesn’t have to up to this point. Until you stick up for yourself and communicate your non-negotiables she will continue to get her way. Make sure this is addressed today.

[fade]

You have put yourself in a really bad situation and you are now the person keeping yourself there. She will never, ever do anything to change the situation because you handed her more than she could ever win on her own in a separation on a silver platter - full financial support, nearly full custody (along with child support), and you vacated the family home. She has every reason to fight to maintain this situation forever. And, to any outside observer or judge, you are the bad husband and dad who left them and didn't bother to see them more than every other weekend. Every month this goes on, the more it cements as status quo. It is almost impossible to change status quo without some external force, which cant come from you. I know you said you want 50-50 in a few years but if you don't get it now, you never will.

You are fixated on her feelings, her apparent fear, but it is your fear that is the problem here. Those are your kids in your house - why cant you drive over and give them a hug? What is stopping you other than your own fear? I have seen both sides of this many times and I'm sure your wife is enjoying playing you for a sucker.

[LH19]

Wow! Great post Fade!

U please read this post over and over. Good stuff!

[MLCxH]

U,
Fade raises some very good points and you need to think hard about what is written in that post. To add a few more things:

And, to any outside observer or judge, you are the bad husband and dad who left them and didn't bother to see them more than every other weekend.

To add to what Fade said, one thing I have cautioned you in the past is that the longer you let this go, the more the kids get adjusted to this new routine. If you suddenly want to move them to a 50/50 custody after 2 years, are you not concerned this will be disruptive to their established routines and lives? At that point can you justify that your need for 50/50 custody is in the best interest of the kids and not just a selfish need for you to see your kids more?

You are fixated on her feelings, her apparent fear, but it is your fear that is the problem here. Those are your kids in your house - why cant you drive over and give them a hug? What is stopping you other than your own fear?

From what I see, your NGS is still very strong. You worry more about what your wife will think rather than speaking up for your (and kids) best interest. Also, you are you are "planning" for a perfect future with 50/50 custody of the kids, great co-parenting with your W etc. when the foundation for all that is rapidly eroding away in the current time while you focus on the future 2-3 years from now.

She has every reason to fight to maintain this situation forever.

I don't even see her fighting to maintain this. You are effectively just following her rules and not even putting up a proper fight.

[unchien]

Thank you all for the hard advice. I am on mobile and will respond later with more thoroughness.

My preference is to bring this up in our next MC which is unfortunately not until mid October. I want to tell my W this is not working for me - the custody and the finances. Is it a mistake to avoid confronting her until MC? I know I shouldn’t fear her but she will absolutely flip out if I do this outside of MC. I guess that’s her problem though right? Alternatively I could move up the appointment to an earlier date?

[LH19]

I see no reason not to wait until October 1. Just make sure you stand your ground on both issues.

[IronWill]

U - you are in a tough spot. You made the best decisions you could for yourself at a time when everything was going upside down. Some of those decisions are having their ramifications now - moving out, for instance.

How you choose to deal with these decisions is up to you, but the other posters are not wrong when they say that it will not change to your benefit unless you make that happen.

[fade]

Thank you all for the hard advice. I am on mobile and will respond later with more thoroughness.

My preference is to bring this up in our next MC which is unfortunately not until mid October. I want to tell my W this is not working for me - the custody and the finances. Is it a mistake to avoid confronting her until MC? I know I shouldn’t fear her but she will absolutely flip out if I do this outside of MC. I guess that’s her problem though right? Alternatively I could move up the appointment to an earlier date?

This is exactly the opposite of what you should do - fear driven avoidance. What you do with your life is up to you, but I think that at every single decision you have made up to this point, you have taken the absolutely worst option. So you need to learn to question and overcome your instincts.

I think you need to step back, don't think about your wife, think about yourself. Imagine your worst possible outcome 5 years from now. Maybe this is that is you are an every other weekend babysitter, your ex lives off of 60% of your paycheck with an unemployed guy with neck tattoos, and your kids call him dad. We will call that outcome 1. Now think of an alternative outcome 2- you are divorced, you have 50-50 custody, you pay her reasonable amount of child support but you can afford to do fun things, and you have a cute girlfriend who is absolutely smitten with you. Now think of outcome 3: you reconcile with your wife.

Now, ignore outcome 3 because there is absolutely nothing that you can do to make that happen, that is not a choice.

Your Choice is literally between outcomes 1 or 2. These are your options. Right now you are actively choosing Option 1 based on your actions. If you want to, you can change your track and choose Option 2. The steps are easy - don't go to MC, retain a lawyer, instruct them to file for divorce or legal separation with 50-50 custody, fixed period of spousal support, and force the sale of the house, and communicate with your waw solely through email, cc'ing your lawyer.

Now, after you have thought all this through, you can give yourself permission to briefly think about the options facing your wife and what is driving her decision. Right now her choice is between Option 1 and Option 3. You are handing Option 1 to her and right now it looks way better than Option 3. Now, if you take away option 1 and instead give her the choice of Option 2 versus Option 3, well, then her choices will probably start to look different.


(PS I don't for a second buy her story that she is scared of you, I have seen that story over and over again - most of the guys I see have heard this story and often there is a visit from the cops and restraining order to go along with it. Meanwhile their waw or ww is yucking it up with their friends or OM. The common denominator in these cases is a submissive or nice guy husband, and a waw who figured out this is the best method to control them. I would suggest you never acknowledge anything she says on this subject)

[AnotherStander]

U, you're getting some very tough but accurate advice. I know this is difficult for you, it is so much easier to maintain status quo and try to keep the peace. But what the others are telling you is true- if and when you end up in court the court will look at the current arrangement and be inclined to make that permanent. It is EXTREMELY difficult to argue for more custody if you've been accepting minimal custody for a long period of time, regardless of the reason. We always say here to stand for your M as much as you can, but fighting for custody of your kids is more important. If you don't have an L then get one. Talk to him/ her about how to rectify this situation through legal channels. Then talk to your W, demand more custody, put her on notice you'll pursue legal action if you don't get it and that you've already taken steps to put it in motion if needed. Will that make her mad? It doesn't matter because right now she's wired to hate you and everything you do. So quit thinking in terms of how to placate her (you can't anyway) and start thinking in terms of what is best for you and your kids. Be strong, you can do this!

[MLCxH]

My preference is to bring this up in our next MC which is unfortunately not until mid October. I want to tell my W this is not working for me - the custody and the finances. Is it a mistake to avoid confronting her until MC? I know I shouldn’t fear her but she will absolutely flip out if I do this outside of MC. I guess that’s her problem though right? Alternatively I could move up the appointment to an earlier date?

If you are more comfortable bringing this up in MC, then that is fine. However, in the meantime you should probably plan for what you will do if you cannot reach an agreement. One thing you need to ask yourself is at what point you think it is justified for you to retain a lawyer and start fighting for your rights. That being said, standing up for yourself is the first step.

[unchien]

MLC, LH19, IW, fade, AS -

Thank you so much for your advice last week. I did read it immediately, and took everything to heart. I have taken a break from the forums, both posting and reading, and I think it has done me some good.

I am going to try to keep this post short, because I don't have much emotional energy right now.

In short, W and I agreed to proceed with filing for D.

We had a follow-up with the financial advisor 2 days ago. She walked us through the numbers -- what the state calculator suggests I would owe in support, how much we are overspending right now. It was not a pretty picture but I expected it. It was clear we could not keep going in separation long-term without spending away our savings.

Afterwards my W asked if I wanted to join her for lunch. I said yes.

I can't run down the whole conversation, it is too long and I'm worn out. But in short, she asked me honestly if I had romantic feelings for her anymore. And I said no. And it was the truth. After the last year plus of feeling so unsupported, sometimes accused, mistrusted... I don't have romantic feelings for her. That's not to say they could never be rekindled I guess, but that's beside the point. I said I would have liked to work on things. She told me she fell out of love with me 14 months ago, after an argument we had where she ended up bawling in the bathroom. This was before MC1. I will never understand why she didn't just tell me, or why she didn't work on things harder in MC1 (rather than just ask me to do more chores). I know I know... it is how these things go. She said she was waiting for me to "win her back." I thought this was odd, that relationships are 2-way streets, and I tried in my own way to win her back. I don't know what she wanted. Our relocation to this new area 2 years ago precipitated every thing, our problems go back to before the move, and the stress involved in making that decision. She clearly has some resentment. I can't change her feelings. It is what it is.

So we're planning to go ahead with filing, and try at the start at least to work out what we can without lawyers.

She asked me if I would move back to where her family lives. I said no. I have no job opportunities there. She asked if she could move there with the kids, and fly them up to see me, and I said no.

She said she consulted a lawyer at one point, and it sounded like this person advised her she could go to court and press things hard (probably with my apology letters) and maybe get her way on moving. But she didn't want to do that.

She was crying a lot, and when we walked back to our cars she grabbed my arm and held on tight. I felt numb. Maybe from shock.

It's all a big mess right now, but we are going to proceed and try to at least talk amicably up front about what we want and make some decisions. I know she prefers to stay in the marital house, but it will have to sell. She saw the numbers. I mentioned an area that would be a longer commute for me, but a great place to raise kids and much more affordable (we live in one of the most expensive areas of the country). It might be better. I didn't promise I would move there. But I'm pretty sure it would be better than living in the expensive area of town. My support payment is eye poppingly large, and I will probably have to move to a less expensive rental. Maybe a 2 BR where the 3 kids share a room for a couple years. I don't know. It's going to be a huge change.

I also mentioned I would want 50/50 custody eventually. She said she might be okay with that if she could pick up the kids from school, etc. on my days when I'm at work.

I know I may need to retain a lawyer at some point, if only for simple guidance on the details. I'm not going to be hasty. If we split the assets, and agree on support payment in line with the state guidance, and the custody plan can be worked out to trend to 50/50 in a couple years, I don't see what else I need. Maybe I am naive.

I also don't know how much we can bang out without lawyers. I know I am conflict avoidant and may cave on details. It concerns me, but at least I am aware. I have one dominant priority - what's best for the kids. Right now 50-50 is not best. I'm trying to figure in my head exactly what I want, and what is best for them developmentally.

I think my W kind of choreographed the last year of our lives, got scared about exiting the marriage and how I would react. It could have been avoided, but in the process I found this place and have grown so much. Although our talk the other day didn't affect me much, the day after it hit me hard. It's a gut punch. I realized I was emotionally abandoned for over a year. But I've been through it before and I know I can get through this now. I have so many people here to thank for that, I don't know how I would have gotten to the positive state of mind I have right now. I am certainly struggling, and grieving what could have been, and wondering how it all went wrong, but I know I have to focus on me, focus on the kids, focus on standing up for myself.

A few hours after this, I had my Monday dinner with the kids that I negotiated. I brought them to my house and we ordered pizza. I played cards with my son, built Lego's with D5, and played a game with D3. It was the best 3 hours of my week. They were all so engaged and happy to be here, I could tell. I can't wait for Friday when I have them for 4 days (including a school holiday on Monday).

Sorry for the disjointed post. I'm sure I'll be back in a few days to post more, for now I need a break. Apologies also to the other regulars whose threads I usually comment on -- I'm sure I'll be back more frequently once things settle a bit.

[IronWill]

In short, W and I agreed to proceed with filing for D.

I'm so sorry to hear that U. That really [censored], I know none of this is what you wanted. No advice here, you've been through enough for now - just take care of yourself and your kids. Enjoy your time with them and live in the moment.

Sorry for the disjointed post. I'm sure I'll be back in a few days to post more, for now I need a break. Apologies also to the other regulars whose threads I usually comment on -- I'm sure I'll be back more frequently once things settle a bit.

Take your time, do what you need to do. We will be here when things settle.

Take care buddy.

[LH19]

U,

I am really sorry to hear your update. I know that [censored] but in a way I wonder if you don't feel some relief? I know I did when my ex told me she would file.

I would caution you to not believe her time line on when she "fell out of love with you". It was most likely that she was planning her escape for years. That is why she put in no effort in MC because she had already checked out. I read once that 80% of couples who attend MC attend to late once at least one has already checked out.

Trust me that there is a high probability that years down the road she is more then likely going to wish she would have tried harder to save the marriage. I think she is really going to struggle with three young kids.

The last thing I want to say is I would not except anything less then 50/50 right away. You have son/s so it's important for them to have their father as much as possible. I don't care if you need to move next door to your W. Don't settle for less!

I know your hurting now but I promise you it does get better and you are a man who takes self improvement serious and will come out of this a better and stronger person.

Stay strong my friend!

[unchien]

IW, LH19 - Thanks for your responses.

I'm definitely in a bit of a depression. I recognize it so much better now, but also don't deny that I am depressed. Some mild panic attacks. I'll get through it but I know the next few months will be rough. The beginning of fall and shorter days is not going to help. I know this about myself, which also helps me know I will pull through it eventually.

I did feel some relief when my W said she fell out of love awhile ago. I felt relieved to hear she has been feeling this way for a long time. It explained so much. It also made me frustrated. I really believe the disruption of our relocation 2 years ago, including the stress of making the decision beforehand, was the cause of all this. Neither of us was equipped to handle the stress, or support each other, in the ways we needed. I think my W resents me for the move, and maybe doesn't realize that part of it. There's no going back, although I do wonder had we not moved, would our MR be different? Maybe so. Would I be happier? I don't know.

The custody issue is a really tough one for me. I honestly believe with all the logistical realities and setting feelings aside, a transitional period towards 50/50 will be best for my kids, if we can agree to that.

This is really just the beginning of the disruption of this divorce. The big logistical hurdle right now is going to be where we both decide to live, and hopefully that is near each other for the sake of our kids (my viewpoint, not sure about hers). There are 2 sensible areas: one is near where I live now, but that is expensive. Anywhere else is going to be a bad neighborhood, or so expensive that it means a 2BR apartment. I doubt either of us want that. Another area is about 30 minutes away, much more affordable, better place for kids, but a longer commute for me to work (although I can telecommute some days).

My W wants to discuss the house next week, so this ball is going to get rolling. It seems like now that she saw the numbers, and how we are digging a hole the longer the separation goes, she is geared up to push things through. I am completely on board with this. I can only assume she is talking about selling the house, unless she wants to try to arrange buying me out and refinancing it. I think she realizes she will not be able to stay there regardless.

It's all so overwhelming. Looking at the numbers I think the next 2 years are going to be really really hard. I worry about the impact to the kids. I have no idea where we will settle down. Being divorced in this area of the country is a nightmare. My rental feels small and cheap, and yet, I don't think I can afford it long-term with these support payments.

[AnotherStander]

U, sounds like you handled the conversation really well, good job! You stuck to your guns, did not accept her (crazy) terms, insisted on more visitation. Good! Yes it's emotionally draining but you got your expectations for D out there and that was the hard part. As for this part:

She said she was waiting for me to "win her back."

Straight out of the ol' WAS script handbook. Don't believe it for a second.

[unchien]

AS - Thank you, I really needed some positive feedback to lift me up a bit.

I know that it's crazy for someone to say they were waiting to be won back. That's a Hollywood version of life and not how real relationships work. I do know that I contributed to her falling out of love. We had a toxic dynamic. Combine 3 kids, a stressful relocation with massive career changes...

I'm sure I'm not the only person here who looks back and thinks things could have been different. That it didn't have to turn out this way. But it did.

The anxiety flooding and minor panic attacks returning are rough. I know the feeling well, I know I'll get through it, but I still absolutely hate it.

[rooskers]

our Choice is literally between outcomes 1 or 2. These are your options. Right now you are actively choosing Option 1 based on your actions. If you want to, you can change your track and choose Option 2. The steps are easy - don't go to MC, retain a lawyer, instruct them to file for divorce or legal separation with 50-50 custody, fixed period of spousal support, and force the sale of the house, and communicate with your waw solely through email, cc'ing your lawyer.

unchien I have been following your sitch since I got here and have couple thoughts since I went through the whole divorce process with custody issues. It sounds like you are on at least speaking terms with your W and are able to communicate somewhat reasonably with her. Be prepared that all this will change when the D starts to happen. No NGS during the divorce and please please please get a lawyer. She decided to leave a long time ago and has been planning since. She is light years ahead of you in thinking about custody, finances, where to live, and going over scenarios on how to be in the best position after (you may not believe it but it is true). She has likely already talked to many people about how to be in the best position possible to get your money and the children. You have been blindsided and have been working on self improvement in hopes of reconciliation. She has not. If you are going through with D stop talking now, because everything will be used against you in court. All communication should go through lawyer or email. Do not agree to anything unless you have had lawyer look at it. If you thought W changed her attitude towards you when she walked away just wait for the divorce to happen.

My XW talked to me before the D and told me what she wanted and we agreed on everything. It seemed to good to be true. I found out behind my back she was talking to her friends on how best she could hurt me. She never cussed in her life when we were together but I saw texts from her to her friends that used every four letter word possible against me. At the same time she was talking with her friends I would get emails from her that were friendly and nice. I hope that is not the case with you but please unchien protect yourself.

[Maika]

I can't echo more what AS, LH, and Rooskers have said.

I know custody is tough but get 50/50 now instead of delaying it for the future. You don't know how amenable W will be in the future to make amendments to your separation and divorce agreements. You're just kicking a whirl of trouble down the road rather than dealing with it all right now.

With how things have gone down with your W, I couldn't agree more about talking through these things with a lawyer on your side. We never want things to be adversarial, but taking precaution is better than regretting it later. Don't make any agreements that are off the cuff. I know this $ucks, but keep in mind you are trying to protect and have what's best for the children.

And like AS said, she's telling you stuff right outta the script. Don't believe any of it. Also, it's a ridiculous expectation that you should've read her mind and done things differently.

Hang in there! The other side of all of this nonsense is glorious. Right now protect yourself and your kids. The other stuff will come.

[MLCxH]

U,
I feel you handled the conversation well. It is natural to be depressed when something like this actually happens even if you had an idea it was going to happen. We go through a grieving process and it takes time to heal. Expect to have emotional ups and downs and know that however hard it may seem, you will heal and feel better over time. One piece of advice is to not look back and wonder "what if". WAS say a lot of things that make us feel like we could have saved the marriage if we had done something different. Over the course of a year I addressed a lot of the grievances that my ex had but in the end she always found some reason to justify her decision. So, don't think back about what you could have done to save the marriage or "win her back". Focus on what needs to be done going forward.

This is my opinion, but I feel that filing may actually work out better for you given your current sitch. Based on your posts, it appeared the MR was dead and your W was not motivated to try to R. You were already separated and the financial & custody terms did not seem favorable to you. Made me wonder what was preventing you from filing since you seemed to have all the disadvantages of being D without a lot of the benefits.

Read the posts by the others above, there is some good advice there especially about having a good lawyer to represent you.

You have come a long way since your first few posts and I have seen you grow over the months. Focus on your kids and take care of yourself. Stay strong my friend, it will get better!

[Wanted1]

Just my 2 cents, as a lawyer....

The #1 thing harped on in law school with regard to custody is the court will only make changes to the custody arrangement initially ordered if it passes the "best interests of the child" test. That is the standard the court always uses with regard to petitions for modifications. Now, the argument can be made that equal parenting time is in the best interests of the child(ren). However, she can (and I'm sure will) argue that to make such drastic changes to their environment and lives isn't. Its a tough one and one I'm not sure you really want to roll the dice on.

If you are wanting something that trends toward 50/50 down the road, that absolutely needs to be built into the initial Stipulation and Agreement. Don't just assume or plan on being able to come to that agreement down the road. Some sort of adjustment after a few years should be agreed to, signed and executed by you and your STBExW from the get-go. That's just my opinion on it. I can't count how many times I've either had people come to me or heard the horror stories of LBS just going along with their WAS or WS wishes hoping that by being amenable will bring them back or thinking that kicking that can down the road is easiest and they end up getting fuched in the end.

As the saying goes....when you 'assume' you make an 'ASS out of U and ME' ;-)

[unchien]

She is light years ahead of you in thinking about custody, finances, where to live, and going over scenarios on how to be in the best position after (you may not believe it but it is true). She has likely already talked to many people about how to be in the best position possible to get your money and the children. You have been blindsided and have been working on self improvement in hopes of reconciliation. She has not.

I think you are right that she has choreographed the last several months. I wouldn't say I was blindsided, because I assumed we would D. But I do realize by some of her comments she has done her own legwork investigating what works best for her.

During the last 6 months, I have consulted friends (and a L) about my custody and financial options. I knew this was coming, although I was obviously not fully emotionally prepared. I don't feel completely blindsided as far as what my options are.

One thing I should say - my W does value her career. But she has a dream scenario where she works 2-3 days per week and spends a ton of time with the kids. She is not trying to leverage a SAHM deal out of this. The problem I have is that I should not be subsidizing her dream lifestyle. It will be pitched as if her slowly ramping up is a better transition for the kids.

I know custody is tough but get 50/50 now instead of delaying it for the future. You don't know how amenable W will be in the future to make amendments to your separation and divorce agreements. You're just kicking a whirl of trouble down the road rather than dealing with it all right now.

One thing I want to investigate is if future 50/50 can be written into the divorce agreement up front. For instance, I don't know, we do 40/60 for a year, then transition to 50/50. No idea if this is possible to write in up front. It is honestly what I want though.

This is my opinion, but I feel that filing may actually work out better for you given your current sitch. Based on your posts, it appeared the MR was dead and your W was not motivated to try to R. You were already separated and the financial & custody terms did not seem favorable to you. Made me wonder what was preventing you from filing since you seemed to have all the disadvantages of being D without a lot of the benefits.

Read the posts by the others above, there is some good advice there especially about having a good lawyer to represent you.

MR was completely dead. More dead than I even thought. No point digging a hole every month financially for no greater purpose.

Looking back on everything, I understand much of my W's behavior. When our MR was unraveling, she got this idea in her head that I was scary and unpredictable. It explains so much of what happened in the last year plus.

I was living in a lot of fear myself especially since April. I have no doubts she considered plans to get full custody and move back to her hometown. Out of fear I gave way on many details to avoid a legal situation during the separation.

My W has remarked that I seem calmer and happier the last few times we have talked. I think she recognizes that I am not a scary monster. She doesn't want to cut me out of the kids' lives. She does seem nicer now. She brought over some Halloween decorations for my house. I recognize this could be just a "nice" phase and I should be prepared for more ugliness.

I know she probably wants >50/50 in perpetuity, and an easy landing for her to ramp up her career slowly, and there will be some friction and yes I will likely need a L at some point to help me out. At the moment I do not worry that she will lawyer up and threaten to leave with the kids, but I also know things may change. She may be having a flood of temporary goodwill.

[unchien]

Just my 2 cents, as a lawyer....

The #1 thing harped on in law school with regard to custody is the court will only make changes to the custody arrangement initially ordered if it passes the "best interests of the child" test. That is the standard the court always uses with regard to petitions for modifications. Now, the argument can be made that equal parenting time is in the best interests of the child(ren). However, she can (and I'm sure will) argue that to make such drastic changes to their environment and lives isn't. Its a tough one and one I'm not sure you really want to roll the dice on.

If you are wanting something that trends toward 50/50 down the road, that absolutely needs to be built into the initial Stipulation and Agreement. Don't just assume or plan on being able to come to that agreement down the road. Some sort of adjustment after a few years should be agreed to, signed and executed by you and your STBExW from the get-go. That's just my opinion on it. I can't count how many times I've either had people come to me or heard the horror stories of LBS just going along with their WAS or WS wishes hoping that by being amenable will bring them back or thinking that kicking that can down the road is easiest and they end up getting fuched in the end.

As the saying goes....when you 'assume' you make an 'ASS out of U and ME' ;-)

Wanted -

Thank you so much for posting this.

I will *absolutely not* assume we can hit 50/50 in the future. I know not to count on this.

What I think I want to do (still mulling this over) is what you suggest - building in 50/50 down the road into the initial stipulation and agreement.

My other option is go for 50/50 now. That would assuredly put us in court.

I am really struggling with this question.

On the one hand, starting at less than 50/50 is an easier transition for everybody. But I recognize this might be my Nice Guy tendencies, and I need to think hard about this. Even if "future 50/50" is written into the legal agreement, I'm sure there are pitfalls to getting that done when the time comes.

On the other hand, starting at 50/50 would be more challenging up front for everyone (me, wife, kids), and probably involve a lot more legal and emotional turmoil. But if I got it, we would be set going forward.

I'm really torn emotionally on this question. I can't describe how torn I am.

[Wanted1]

Just my 2 cents, as a lawyer....

The #1 thing harped on in law school with regard to custody is the court will only make changes to the custody arrangement initially ordered if it passes the "best interests of the child" test. That is the standard the court always uses with regard to petitions for modifications. Now, the argument can be made that equal parenting time is in the best interests of the child(ren). However, she can (and I'm sure will) argue that to make such drastic changes to their environment and lives isn't. Its a tough one and one I'm not sure you really want to roll the dice on.

If you are wanting something that trends toward 50/50 down the road, that absolutely needs to be built into the initial Stipulation and Agreement. Don't just assume or plan on being able to come to that agreement down the road. Some sort of adjustment after a few years should be agreed to, signed and executed by you and your STBExW from the get-go. That's just my opinion on it. I can't count how many times I've either had people come to me or heard the horror stories of LBS just going along with their WAS or WS wishes hoping that by being amenable will bring them back or thinking that kicking that can down the road is easiest and they end up getting fuched in the end.

As the saying goes....when you 'assume' you make an 'ASS out of U and ME' ;-)

Wanted -

Thank you so much for posting this.

I will *absolutely not* assume we can hit 50/50 in the future. I know not to count on this.

What I think I want to do (still mulling this over) is what you suggest - building in 50/50 down the road into the initial stipulation and agreement.

My other option is go for 50/50 now. That would assuredly put us in court.

I am really struggling with this question.

On the one hand, starting at less than 50/50 is an easier transition for everybody. But I recognize this might be my Nice Guy tendencies, and I need to think hard about this. Even if "future 50/50" is written into the legal agreement, I'm sure there are pitfalls to getting that done when the time comes.

On the other hand, starting at 50/50 would be more challenging up front for everyone (me, wife, kids), and probably involve a lot more legal and emotional turmoil. But if I got it, we would be set going forward.

I'm really torn emotionally on this question. I can't describe how torn I am.

Yep, I understand completely. I was in a similar situation. ExW and I worked together. When she flew the coop she saddled me with two offices and all the workload. So, I had to navigate handling double the workload plus caring for 3 kids under 7 50% of the time. I knew I had to figure it out on the fly so that I was set for the future as far as custody was concerned. Let me tell you, it was a massive adjustment. But like everything, now it has become the norm and isn’t an issue at all. I feel like you should do 50/50 right now and make it work for the time being. It’ll get better and easier. Then you aren’t stressed about the what if’s down the road. If it’s gonna be a battle, might as well wage war now and get it over with. Plus, the added respect she might gain for you is an added bonus.

[fade]

You don't necessarily need to retain a lawyer, but you absolutely need to have a few consultations with lawyers now, and ask them in advance that you want to talk about the future 50-50 scenario. Its either a very smart or very terrible move, depending on your jurisdiction. When you do consult, what you need to ask is if there is precedent for this in your area, how binding would a separation agreement be over time, and what is an appropriate and enforceable timeline.

The smart part of this is that she is probably thinking very short term and you can give up more short term for a better long term solution. The negative is that you are kicking the can down the road, no matter what she agrees to now, assume this will be a fight and the more time you give up primary custody and pay her support, the stronger her position gets to preserve this as status quo. It is often impossible to make any changes to a situation after a year. And she has made zero sacrifices so far - whether it is now, 6 months or 2 years it doesn't matter, she will fight any changes. And while you may think its better for the kids if she doesn't work full time now, I would disagree. I think its more important they get equal time with happy parents even if that means a couple more days of daycare.

So, I would look into something along the lines of at most a 6 month transition to 50-50, something like a 2 year limit on spousal support, and also write in long term expenses like activities and college should be 50-50. If you think its hard to pay the bills now, just wait 10 years. Also, I would give a deadline for her to sell or vacate the house and then you move back in. She will probably sabotage selling it for as long as she can since you are footing the bill, so pick a date based on how long you can afford knowing it wont sell until she vacates.

I know this is all scary, but continuing on in your current path was really the worst outcome. Now things are moving. Accept that it will get worse before it gets better, but know that it will get better.

[IHCLACS]

Uni. I wrote my furious response to the last few posts 5:30 am. This morning but ran out of time.  Much calmer now over your sich and your W's response about "winning her back"

I am amazed at how much support you have garnered here in the last 14hrs, emotionally, legally, etc. You guys are awesome for getting behind Uni so quickly and with such sound advise and compassion. I'm on the same issue with my sich Uni about 50/50 custody and "scary perceived notions that I might hurt myself, or S2" and 50/50 custody discussions. Anything to be used as leverage.  I hear you about the depression with the weather change.  I had a small panic today, but not an attack and yesterday about the same thing too, before you and IW even mentioned it. Kind of ironic about the thoughts of fall, winter, long long winter until April, moving and being alone with my thoughts during Christmas, New Years, and having even more heightened seasonal blues between Jan- April. 6 months of hell. Pretty scary to imaging what the next 6 months will be alone, but I'm sure that's where we will grow ourselves.

My response from this morning:

Uni. I read this post and I wanted to F@$kin scream after I got to the part about "Winning her back!" Like she is some sort of prize or something? OMG!THE ARROGANCE!!! Granted I know a lot of these WAS'S are hurting, trying to find themselves, are depressed, going through MLC, have childhood traumas and self worth issues, etc. But man. When they gain confidence as they are starting to heal, if they even are as a result of going to therapy.

These WAS's ARE ARROGANT! They drive me crazy with their uncertainties, their indecision, manipulations, their double standards, arrogance, their fickleness, their actions, etc.. How they run hot and cold, how they have the power to stop all this, how when committed to working on the M (real change can develop, if you can even get them to recommit.) I see it in your sich, Wolf's sich, and a lot of others. ITS ABSOLUTE INSANITY! They play these games, but they don't really think they are playing games. They are playing for real. They acuse us of being emotionally unstable, abusive, and reactive with their "$hit tests" they pull in testing someone's limits, gaslight, project, re-write history, etc and wonder why we grow indifferent because of their actions against us, the family, and the M, That our behaviors, and us are at fault, that they claim they are just emotionally reacting to us, when it is us reacting to them with the grief, the marital issues, financial, and emotional sabotage that they cause us. Its like they almost provoke us, then cry victim when we go there. They LOOOVVEE playing that roll. No accountability for anything on their side. If that isn't emotional abuse on their part, I don't know what is?

This is what I hear from them when I read these kind of posts:

"I want space from you, but please try harder to win me back because I am the prize that doesn't have to change, and I want you to do all of the hard work and the changing." "Your emotionally abusive and reactive, but let me make you're life a living hell with the kids, the finances, the marital home, the courts, and the M just to see if that will wake you up enough to change for me, so I get what I want either way, and im padded on the resources as I will use the kids as a bargaining chip in the courts."

She "Grabbed tour arm and held on tight and started crying." You almost want to ask them. WTF are you crying for? You wanted this, you initiated it, you planned it, and you took multiple actions on it, never thinking of the consequence, or the  follow through with my end of it? Should have filed an assault charge against her for grabbing your arm. That you feared for your life. You found her scary and emotionally unstable. You know why they are crying? Because they are morning the death of you and the M, but they don't want to fully see you go. They just want to keep you at an arms length, and they will use you, the kids, your current location, and limbo to string you along. They want to move somewhere familiar, or somewhere new, away from you for a fresh start and eventually find themselves, see other people romantically, but they want you to follow them too. It just perplexes me? Kind of like "I want to keep you around just in case." "And if I don't really need to. I could sure use your money for me and the kids." 
"You can watch them every other weekend while I have my girls night out, and pursue other men."

Mine recently shared with me her little fantasy, that she wanted to move to Iowa in a year, become a college professor, that I could follow her and S2, and open up my own Pizza business. (One of my dreams.) She even found the perfect store front and building real cheap for me too. It would logically be a hit, a financial success, and a good move, and growing experience for me. But why the hell would I want to stay emotionally attached to someone that wants nothing to do with me, than more than a friend? And we wonder why people ghost one another and go NC to protect ourselves? She'll share all this with me one day, than ignore me like I didn't exist "to protect herself" another day. But they can't understand why our moods fluctuate from day to day, moment to moment, from the harm to us they commit, to our family, and all the grief that they are causing us.

This is all about power, and control, who had it during the M, and who is taking it back. They don't want to submit, and they want it both ways, all day, every day, all the time. During the marriage if you took the power and control, made some of the decisions, and took the lead, they wanted egalitarianism and equalism. 

If you procrastinated, or fell behind in a chore because you were dog tired, injured, or keeping up with her social schedule, you weren't being responsible, but if they didn't even clean up after themselves after a meal,  the kids, or their side of the bedroom, you are the critical nitpicking bad guy for saying something or holding them to the same standard they hold you to, but want you to overlook their errors, but not yours. If you went to discipline the kids, you are overbearing, but then when the kids act up and you have to command it when she can't handle it, its ok.

They wanted to do half the work or none of the work but yet still get all the results and benefits from you and the marriage. They wanted attention, romantic feelings, a spark of interest, a beautiful social life of fresh and new experiences, all the time where you attend all functions, every weekend, but never understand that you need to take the time to maintain your home, keep up with your job, and have hobbies and a life outside of that. "You work too hard and too much and never find any time for me." "But I need money from you so I can pay the bills, maintain my lifestyle, and social life more" "I will analyze all of your behavior, but you can never analyze, or criticize mine or have standards. That's controlling." "I want you to handle all the bills, and do all the chores after a 55hr. work week, but I don't want to cook a meal for you, or do anything but watch Netflix and Reality TV, and play games on my phone, because I'm spent when I get home from work." " When you do it, I resent you for it. But when I do it, its ok because I deserve it, and you are considered mean if you say something about it. "I resent you because I have to grocery shop, and you never do it anymore, and I feel like I'm doing everything. But I won't ask you to come with me, or say what's wrong, or I need more help. Ill just hold it in, resent you, put walls around me, kill our love and our marriage, then wait until year 10 and 1 day to plan my escape, collect alimony and child support, divorce you, and start a new life and find a new man.

I am genuinely convinced that these women cannot love you for who you are, but for what you do and how you make then feel about themselves, or what benefit or new experience you can provide to them.  But they expect you to love them for who they are and never hold them TO YOUR STANDARDS OR BOUNDARIES. They only look at you as an accessory they're just in love with the idea of you.

I just want to know why I keep seeing it over and over and over, on here, in my personal life, and other family member's life and plenty of divorced men that I speak to, that when a woman's love turn's cold for you, and she wants to push you out of her life. All of a sudden (Especially after children.)  She will paint a picture in her head that you are some kind of abusive monster. Some go as far to charge false DV claims against husbands that never laid a finger on them, or raised their voice to them. I've just seen it too many times.

Now ladies. That's not to say we Men don't have our issues either. We cheat, we fall out of love, we get overzealous and greedy for resources, we have MLC's, gambling issues, temperament issues, abuse issues, addictions, etc. I'm really trying to remain balanced, and remember this is a people and societal issue, not a man vs woman issue. But from a financial, legal and logical standpoint from my research. Marriage just isn't worth it in today's era. Too many risks where the Man has nothing to gain, and the Woman based on her emotions in a court of family law, has everything to gain. A man risks his retirement, his finances, his job, his house, and his kids. (Thanks No Fault Divorce Laws.)

Ladies on here like DejaVu6 So Torn, and others, my heart genuinely goes out to you. I genuinely feel for you. But I notice a common theme with the ladies sich's too. These men who have done them wrong are about power too, and who has it. Whether it be emotionally, physically, legally, or financially. Narcisstic men who have power and weild it through manipulation, trickery, selfishness, lack of duty, addictions, affairs, and divorce. When the women take the power over NGS guys like Wolf, Uni and somewhat myself.
It pi$$es me off too. We have a serious problem in our society, with moral decay, men and women lacking old traditional values, marriage, pre-marriage, its values and teachings, lack of duty, heavily reliant on emotions, which can now in a family court be 2/3rds of the law. I'm trying not to make this sexist, but just want to expose what is really going on out there today. I've been so quiet about this for months because I don't want to offend anyone here, and have been frowned upon before by other members before for mentioning these things. But I love you guys and mean no disrespect to either sex, it just is what it is and needs to be said if we are going to learn what the symptoms and origins are for causing this today, learn, grow and change from it. People need to be aware of it. I know we can't go backwards in time, but we have to stop this crash course by examining our current values and relationships. I only say all this because I want to be more aware of how people change, for what reasons and influences, etc.

Sorry to blow up your thread Uni. Im just validating what a lot of us, (especially guys) are experiencing, and how the current family legal system has us at a huge disadvantage when it comes to the custody of our children.
Ok. Im going to put my mind, and my bias down now, and focus on just self improvement for myself, my son, others, and the people on here. If I stumble upon anything than can help us all feel better, I will share.

[AnotherStander]

IH- lol! It is very frustrating isn't it! Frustrating and confusing. All of this behavior you describe, in most cases it's coming from a person who was previously stable, loving and loyal. I don't know what in the world happens that flips that switch but a lot of them certainly go all Jeckle & Hyde on us. In my case I never really did get angry at my XW, I think this place and Michele's books had a lot to do with that because both helped me see things from her perspective, and understand that she was hurting and in pain as well. And that she was acting on emotions and LOGICALLY didn't understand why she was doing it. She said many times "I don't know what's wrong, I just don't want to be married anymore" and I think that is the case for a lot of WAS's. They might say it's because you didn't do this or that in the M but in most cases the things they are complaining about weren't a problem for them years ago, so why now? Because they are trying hard to justify something they can't explain or even understand.

[IronWill]

AS - you nailed it on the head. Exactly.

I was and am not mad at W and I told her that at BD. It shocked her when I said it. She even asked if I wanted to yell at her, that it would make me feel any better.

I said, "Would it change anything?"

She said, "No."

And then I said, "so there's no point. You said what you are feeling, and I respect that. You were honest, you told me, so what should I be mad about?"

She didn't know what to say.

Of course I was an emotional wreck at the time, but I held it together long enough for that conversation.

They are in another world, because of the various emotional trauma they have been through in the past. That is why they say the things they say and do the things they do, and that is why they do not make any sense.

It is like trying to reason with a two year old who says "no" to everything. It cannot be done.

All we can do is sympathize and show empathy. And we have to take care of ourselves.

[unchien]

Thank you all for your support and advice.

I feel like journaling a bit quickly, so won't have time to respond fully to everyone. I recognize what I am about to write is a lot of self-pitying drivel, but it is how I feel at the moment.

I am feeling this overwhelming fear and anxiety taking hold, it seems to be increasing by the day this week. I feel a tightness in my chest, shallow breathing, low appetite. I decided to take a week off from going to the gym. It feels exactly like back in April when I realized my W was thinking about D.

Someone close to me yesterday gave me the advice to first just think about what I want. Ignore my W, ignore what people say I should ask for, ignore what might happen. Just first... think about what I want. That's all. This seems to be helping a little little bit.

But predominantly I am spinning. I don't know how I'm going to do this. I am afraid of my W, of the courts, of losing touch with my kids. I am full of self-doubt about my ability to stay whole and healthy, to be a great father to my kids, to pull my life together. Even though I made progress the last few months, facing down the next year looks absolutely terrifying to me.

I don't know how I'm going to do this on my own. I am so accustomed to my W's support with the kids. I don't feel fit as a father to do this. I'm not used to doctor appointments and school volunteering and after-school activities.

I foresee things getting really awful between my W and I. A nasty court battle. Communication breakdown. The kids suffering in the middle. Abuse allegations. Slander. Living in fear that I am being documented and watched.

[Tomjr443]

I don't know how I'm going to do this on my own. I am so accustomed to my W's support with the kids. I don't feel fit as a father to do this. I'm not used to doctor appointments and school volunteering and after-school activities.

Immerse yourself into this. By having the kids and focusing all of your energy into them and feeling their unconditional love will help you a great deal in the daily grind. Yes after they are settled into bed, its hard to suppress the thoughts of W and the sitch. This is a great time to get on this board and read or pick up one of the many books suggested here and read. Focus on stepping into the role of being the best, loving father you can be. It will definitely help your self-esteem and confidence which makes it easier to put yourself first in regards to the MR.

[unchien]

Thanks Tom -

You probably didn't mean to set me down this path but you got me thinking:

I need to let go of outcomes. I learned to do this with my MR. Now I need to do it with other aspects of my life. I need to get out of my engineering problem solver mindset which just provokes intense anxiety.

I want 50-50 with my kids. Maybe I will get it. Maybe I won't. Maybe I'll be in a nasty court battle, maybe I won't. I can fight for what I want, but whether or not I get that, I need to be prepared to live a happy fulfilling life. Is that not what DB is all about? Being prepared to handle anything life throws our way?

My relationship with my kids is important. But it also doesn't define me. I do not need to live and die by the outcome. I will fight for what I want. But I do not need to be afraid. These relationship outcomes, whether as a husband, father, son, or friend -- do not define who I am. They are not the measuring stick of a man.

Phew ok I feel a little better.

[Tomjr443]

If it comes down to a nasty court battle you are going to be hard pressed not getting at least joint (50/50) custody unless you have a history of recorded abuse. Judges don't want to break a family apart and are aware that kids need the role of both parents for development. Just take your L's advice, they are your advocate and will protect your rights as a father. I've found that a female L representing other men that I have seen go through the D process with a custody battle seem to get a more favorable outcome, at least in my area.

[rooskers]

Ignore my W, ignore what people say I should ask for, ignore what might happen. Just first... think about what I want.

It will be permanent after the divorce so make sure it is what you want for you going forward for the rest of your life. Do not be tempted by NGS but at the same time you don't want revenge.

I am afraid of my W.

Completely reasonable. She hurt you like no other person could and now can hurt you even more. Just don't let the fear overwhelm you. You are a strong, capable person unchien and so far you have survived 100% of your worst days.

I foresee things getting really awful between my W and I. A nasty court battle. Communication breakdown. The kids suffering in the middle. Abuse allegations. Slander. Living in fear that I am being documented and watched.

All very likely. That is why we have all recommended getting a lawyer. The lawyer is payed to fight for you. It was the best money I have spent in my life. I have been accused, slandered, and everything I do is documented.

I don't know how I'm going to do this on my own. I am so accustomed to my W's support with the kids. I don't feel fit as a father to do this.

I was a stay at home dad for the first 5 years of D13 life and have been the primary caregiver for all 13 years of her life. When she started ballet I learned to put her hair in a bun, at bed I sing her songs, while in gymnastics I learned to braid her hair, when she had a fever I took her to the doctors, when she threw up in bed I cleaned it up and took her to my bed, when she needed a shot I lovingly held her, when she cried for no reason my shoulder got wet, when she was bullied at school I taught her to stand up for herself, when she struggles with homework I sit down and help, when she is hungry I teach her to cook, when she needs time alone I love her from a distance, and when her mom left her I was there.

I didn't know how I was going to do each one of these things, was unqualified, but I did them regardless and you will as well. I failed a lot (I mean a whole lot) but D13 remembers all of my fails as loving memories just as yours will. I don't feel fit as a father either but I do the best I can and you will will too. unchien I am here for you if you need.

[MLCxH]

I don't know how I'm going to do this on my own. I am so accustomed to my W's support with the kids. I don't feel fit as a father to do this. I'm not used to doctor appointments and school volunteering and after-school activities.

Remember that you are planning to co-parent with your W even after D. You are not getting sole custody of the kids so she will still be there taking care of some of this and it will not be your sole responsibility. It will be a big change, hard initially but you will get used to the new routine and responsibilities over time.

T
I foresee things getting really awful between my W and I. A nasty court battle. Communication breakdown. The kids suffering in the middle. Abuse allegations. Slander. Living in fear that I am being documented and watched.

You are back in analysis paralysis. Just a thought here - one thing that may help is consulting with a lawyer. That way you get an idea of the best and worst case scenarios in the D and help you think to a plan rather than analyze all possible scenarios.


Take care of yourself. Eat well, meditate, exercise and most importantly don't hesitate to reach out for help whether it is going to a doctor, talking to a friend, increased IC sessions etc. This is very stressful but stay strong and be positive that things will be ok in the long term.

[unchien]

If it comes down to a nasty court battle you are going to be hard pressed not getting at least joint (50/50) custody unless you have a history of recorded abuse. Judges don't want to break a family apart and are aware that kids need the role of both parents for development. Just take your L's advice, they are your advocate and will protect your rights as a father. I've found that a female L representing other men that I have seen go through the D process with a custody battle seem to get a more favorable outcome, at least in my area.

The L I consulted a few months ago was female.

There is no legal history of abuse. I wrote some apology letters in April that went over the top (trying to save the MR) and would probably be used as evidence in court if it got nasty. The L wasn't worried at the time but she didn't read the letters.

[unchien]

I don't know how I'm going to do this on my own. I am so accustomed to my W's support with the kids. I don't feel fit as a father to do this. I'm not used to doctor appointments and school volunteering and after-school activities.

Remember that you are planning to co-parent with your W even after D. You are not getting sole custody of the kids so she will still be there taking care of some of this and it will not be your sole responsibility. It will be a big change, hard initially but you will get used to the new routine and responsibilities over time.

T
I foresee things getting really awful between my W and I. A nasty court battle. Communication breakdown. The kids suffering in the middle. Abuse allegations. Slander. Living in fear that I am being documented and watched.

You are back in analysis paralysis. Just a thought here - one thing that may help is consulting with a lawyer. That way you get an idea of the best and worst case scenarios in the D and help you think to a plan rather than analyze all possible scenarios.


Take care of yourself. Eat well, meditate, exercise and most importantly don't hesitate to reach out for help whether it is going to a doctor, talking to a friend, increased IC sessions etc. This is very stressful but stay strong and be positive that things will be ok in the long term.

MLC - I can't being to describe how much some of your recent posts have helped me. Thank you for that.

I completely agree on co-parenting. I do have some hopes that we will eventually sort this out and be "amicable" - I know she shares that goal, even if her idea of what is best for the kids differs from mine. It won't be easy, but I will do my best to have a healthy relationship with her for my kids' sake.

You are right I'm completely in analysis paralysis. Part of that is uncertainty about what comes next.

I struggle with taking care of myself when the anxiety builds. My appetite drops, and hence my energy level drops and I don't feel like exercising. I fall asleep okay out of exhaustion, but if I wake up in the middle of the night, my brain starts firing up. I've been listening to a lot of podcasts, but nothing to do with self-improvement because it feeds into my anxiety at the moment. Just distracting entertaining things.

I've been going to weekly IC for about a year now, which is very helpful. And reaching out to friends who have been a huge help. Don't discount this forum which is another form of support. I recognize all the talking in the world won't help, I need to change my thinking patterns.

[Tomjr443]

If you didn't admit any wrongdoing in regards to neglect of the kids then I wouldn't worry about it being introduced. Judges aren't concerned with whats going on between spouses, just whats best for the kids and BOTH parents being involved is usually in the best interest of the kids except is some severe cases IMO

[unchien]

so far you have survived 100% of your worst days.

This is an awesome quote.

I was a stay at home dad for the first 5 years of D13 life and have been the primary caregiver for all 13 years of her life. When she started ballet I learned to put her hair in a bun, at bed I sing her songs, while in gymnastics I learned to braid her hair, when she had a fever I took her to the doctors, when she threw up in bed I cleaned it up and took her to my bed, when she needed a shot I lovingly held her, when she cried for no reason my shoulder got wet, when she was bullied at school I taught her to stand up for herself, when she struggles with homework I sit down and help, when she is hungry I teach her to cook, when she needs time alone I love her from a distance, and when her mom left her I was there.

This was really touching, thank you. A few weeks ago I learned to fishtail-braid my daughters' hair. I completely get where you are coming from here.

[IronWill]

I won't say much, U, because you have a lot of people supporting you right now - so don't feel the need to respond if you don't have time.

You wrote about the "next year of your life".

Do NOT think that far ahead. Please.

Think only about today. Yes, you will at some point have to think about things in the future, but that time is not now. Your emotions are going to be all over the map. Let things settle a bit, refocus, find your center again.

When things get stressful, narrow your timeline wayyyy down and focus on what is happening right now.

You are a smart guy and you knew this was all coming. And now it's happened.

And you survived it.

Stay strong, man.

[unchien]

If you didn't admit any wrongdoing in regards to neglect of the kids then I wouldn't worry about it being introduced. Judges aren't concerned with whats going on between spouses, just whats best for the kids and BOTH parents being involved is usually in the best interest of the kids except is some severe cases IMO

What I admitted to is something I think would be minimized by a L in court. I grabbed my son's leg when he was punching his sister. It didn't leave a mark, no police calls or anything.

The way I apologized was completely over the top and, well, if I have to face that demon, so be it.

When I was about to move out, my W claims I left the house without telling her while I was watching the kids. I did tell her, and at the time she was with all 3 kids, but she didn't hear me. She treated it like I was dangerous, like I might be watching the kids alone and just walk out of the house. (!) It was a minor thing. That is probably the other incident she would raise.

Right now we are in a roughly 28-72 custody split. I'd like to be 50-50 in a year ideally. I think there is a very clear way to morph our current schedule (4-10) into a 2-2-5-5 which would work quite well -- of course I doubt my W shares this view!

[unchien]

You wrote about the "next year of your life".

Do NOT think that far ahead. Please.

Think only about today. Yes, you will at some point have to think about things in the future, but that time is not now. Your emotions are going to be all over the map. Let things settle a bit, refocus, find your center again.

When things get stressful, narrow your timeline wayyyy down and focus on what is happening right now.

You are a smart guy and you knew this was all coming. And now it's happened.

And you survived it.

Stay strong, man.

Thanks IW - I know that I *can* find center, but that it will take me some time.

Back in April, before I found DB, I was home alone for about a week and suffered several (I think) mild panic attacks. 30-40 minutes of feeling like I couldn't breathe, lots of crying. I spent hours typing out my thoughts. I typed out several apology letters (in addition to the ones I had already given my W) and chose to delete them (thankfully). I called my IC 3 times that week.

I survived.

I recognize the symptoms now. Waves throughout the day, lasting about an hour, where I just want to release the tension. Then sometimes a calm feeling. Meditation helps me only when I'm in a calmer state but I'd like to get back to that.

It's a scary lonely feeling. Before this week, I can't say I was hoping to reconcile, but I at least felt somewhat stable in our situation (even though financially it was not sustainable in any way). My W was my rock for so many years. I let friendships tail off, I disconnected from my own family. I don't have that rock anymore. I have to fend for myself. It is scary, even though I know people do it all the time. I'm going to get through this, but it's going to take time.

[Gekko]

[/quote]
Thanks IW - I know that I *can* find center, but that it will take me some time.

Back in April, before I found DB, I was home alone for about a week and suffered several (I think) mild panic attacks. 30-40 minutes of feeling like I couldn't breathe, lots of crying. I spent hours typing out my thoughts. I typed out several apology letters (in addition to the ones I had already given my W) and chose to delete them (thankfully). I called my IC 3 times that week.

I survived.

I recognize the symptoms now. Waves throughout the day, lasting about an hour, where I just want to release the tension. Then sometimes a calm feeling. Meditation helps me only when I'm in a calmer state but I'd like to get back to that.

It's a scary lonely feeling. Before this week, I can't say I was hoping to reconcile, but I at least felt somewhat stable in our situation (even though financially it was not sustainable in any way). My W was my rock for so many years. I let friendships tail off, I disconnected from my own family. I don't have that rock anymore. I have to fend for myself. It is scary, even though I know people do it all the time. I'm going to get through this, but it's going to take time.



[/quote]

Reconnect with your family and friends, make new friends, and never let those relationships fall by the wayside again. Make it a point to stay connected. It's too important.

You should be the rock - for yourself, your woman, your family and friends. Everyone has weak moments and for that you have one or two friends or family members to confide in or lean on, but otherwise just be the rock. It's not hard to accomplish once you establish the mindset.

You know what you have to do. You can do it. You have a fantastic life ahead that is waiting for you, you just have to reach out and take it.

[unchien]

Reconnect with your family and friends, make new friends, and never let those relationships fall by the wayside again. Make it a point to stay connected. It's too important.

You should be the rock - for yourself, your woman, your family and friends. Everyone has weak moments and for that you have one or two friends or family members to confide in or lean on, but otherwise just be the rock. It's not hard to accomplish once you establish the mindset.

You know what you have to do. You can do it. You have a fantastic life ahead that is waiting for you, you just have to reach out and take it.

I have to create my own support network, piece by piece. I have a theory this is why so many D'd men jump right back into the rebound relationship.

These 3 months of separation have been really bizarre. Sometimes I feel like I am in my 20s, leaving dirty dishes in the sink, doing laundry whenever I want. I feel... not as much of an adult. I saw a quote recently: "Your kids will never remember how clean you kept your house." But I have seen glimpses of the fantastic life you talk about. Special moments with my kids, moments I didn't have as often before. Sunset surfing on the beautiful Pacific Ocean. Buliding my own kitchen table. Honestly, I know it's right there for the taking, I just need to exchange 3 custody days every 2 weeks and everything else will sort it self out =)

Gekko, I always like reading your thread because you sound in command. I'm guessing you don't have the same NGS tendencies as many of us here. It helps a lot to realize the faultiness in my thinking at times.

[unchien]

You don't necessarily need to retain a lawyer, but you absolutely need to have a few consultations with lawyers now, and ask them in advance that you want to talk about the future 50-50 scenario. Its either a very smart or very terrible move, depending on your jurisdiction. When you do consult, what you need to ask is if there is precedent for this in your area, how binding would a separation agreement be over time, and what is an appropriate and enforceable timeline.

The smart part of this is that she is probably thinking very short term and you can give up more short term for a better long term solution. The negative is that you are kicking the can down the road, no matter what she agrees to now, assume this will be a fight and the more time you give up primary custody and pay her support, the stronger her position gets to preserve this as status quo. It is often impossible to make any changes to a situation after a year. And she has made zero sacrifices so far - whether it is now, 6 months or 2 years it doesn't matter, she will fight any changes. And while you may think its better for the kids if she doesn't work full time now, I would disagree. I think its more important they get equal time with happy parents even if that means a couple more days of daycare.

So, I would look into something along the lines of at most a 6 month transition to 50-50, something like a 2 year limit on spousal support, and also write in long term expenses like activities and college should be 50-50. If you think its hard to pay the bills now, just wait 10 years. Also, I would give a deadline for her to sell or vacate the house and then you move back in. She will probably sabotage selling it for as long as she can since you are footing the bill, so pick a date based on how long you can afford knowing it wont sell until she vacates.

I know this is all scary, but continuing on in your current path was really the worst outcome. Now things are moving. Accept that it will get worse before it gets better, but know that it will get better.

All this advice sounds great to me.

On the house, we are talking next week. I have no desire to move back, I assume she wants to talk about selling it, or how she plans to stay (which I think is financially impossible for her now that I know the recommended support payments, etc.).

[unchien]

Uni. I wrote my furious response to the last few posts 5:30 am. This morning but ran out of time.  Much calmer now over your sich and your W's response about "winning her back"

IHC -

Thanks for the long (and impassioned!) response.

You describe well the frustration I feel. I loved this woman, I truly did, with all of my heart. Obviously now in retrospect I see the flaws that were always there, but people are flawed, and I think we had a fighting chance if we both worked at it.

We went through a major disruption in our lives, one that in retrospect may have been a poor choice (moving). I contributed to the failure of our MR, and so did she. Why we couldn't sit down and work through it will always be a mystery to me. We seemed to work well together for a long time. But such is the fickleness of the human heart I guess. She fell out of love, and once that happens, it's basically game over. The following year was just an opportunity for me to feed her narrative. When she was distant and I got upset -- emotional abuse. When she was distant and I respected her need for space -- I was distant. Some of her anger lashing out at me -- all of it, driven by the need to justify her escape. I thought at the time she was signaling me that she was unhappy but still in love, but I think she was done already. I hope that is a warning to other LBS's here, because I think I was mistaking limbo. Limbo was not about my W struggling with her decision to be in the MR. She was already done. Limbo was about my W struggling with how to exit the MR.

I told her during the conversation that I did try to win her back. But I felt like she built up walls around her heart, and no matter what I tried, those walls only got thicker.

Maybe I'm too much of a NG, and should have walked away myself a long time ago. I could have told her Monday that I still have romantic feelings for her, that I still see hope in working things out. But that would be a lie. I don't want divorce for my kids, but at this point I'm resigned to the fact it is the only workable decision. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't value me as a partner.

I wish she would have just told me she fell out of love a long time ago. I can accept that. I can't manufacture feelings. I know there are all kinds of programs touted for "winning your W back" - DB is one of them, but there are many others. None of these are fool-proof, and I imagine the success rate is low by the time we LBS's realize it and take action. Ultimately we can improve ourselves to a degree, but we also are who we are. Living under the microscope is a miserable way to live.

I know she is not being flippant. This is a massive decision. I broke her heart. She doesn't want to be with me. She is willing to go through the pain of divorce, specifically because she does not want to be my W. It hurts, and yet, I know long-term I will eventually find somebody else, if I want to. It won't be the same. We won't build a family together from scratch. Life will be messy. I'm pretty sure I will never give as much of myself to another person (and maybe that's a healthy thing). I'll need to process everything that happened, and why, and I imagine I'll never understand exactly what happened for us to reach this point.

[unchien]

Journal ~

I find I’m waking up every day super depressed and then gradually I feel better throughout the day.

W wants to talk about the house and mortgage this weekend. Says she is stressed about us spending into our savings. I don’t know what that means, but we are spending into our joint savings and I would agree we should move quickly. I’m also frustrated she has yet to get back working. She said she wasn’t emotionally ready and I thought, “I’m lucky I didn’t get fired in the last year going through this emotional nightmare.”

I’m really hurt right now. I know it’s over and I don’t want to be with her. But I’m hurt that she didn’t just tell me. She was so cold and heartless the last year. So many blowup fights where I tried to fix things when really she was just full of resentment towards me. I would get emotional at times because of her distance and she turned this into a narrative of emotional abuse.

I went to the zoo with the kids yesterday. So many couples with their kids. The moms on their phones texting friends, the dads on their phones checking fantasy football. Barely watching their kids. And none of them going through this hell. I know I have my issues on anxiety and indecision. But I also know I make a great partner for someone who loves me back.

I need to make myself whole and right. This is going to be a rough year ahead settling this divorce.

[IronWill]

Journal ~

I find I’m waking up every day super depressed and then gradually I feel better throughout the day.

Hey U. I'm sorry you are feeling so down. I know its little consolation but you're not alone. I feel the same. It's a struggle every day to put on my best face and push away the need to feel hurt.

W wants to talk about the house and mortgage this weekend. Says she is stressed about us spending into our savings. I don’t know what that means, but we are spending into our joint savings and I would agree we should move quickly. I’m also frustrated she has yet to get back working. She said she wasn’t emotionally ready and I thought, “I’m lucky I didn’t get fired in the last year going through this emotional nightmare.”

Not trying to pile on in any way here, but far as I can see, there isn't much to talk about. The house will have to go - that's what I told my W too. It's also what caused my W to second guess herself. I'm not saying it will happen in your sit, but it's a big reality check.

I’m really hurt right now. I know it’s over and I don’t want to be with her. But I’m hurt that she didn’t just tell me. She was so cold and heartless the last year. So many blowup fights where I tried to fix things when really she was just full of resentment towards me. I would get emotional at times because of her distance and she turned this into a narrative of emotional abuse.

Remember U - she is going through something. It is not rational or logical. My W did the same thing, save the emotional abuse narrative. Instead she dug up some simple grievances that were correctable on my part, strung them together and blamed it all on me. I listened and validated - but none of it was justifiable for a split. At first i believed her, i thought it all was my fault. But it is not. A marriage is 50-50, both partners are to blame for the problems.

WASs need the justification to do what they are doing. My W was much more logical and practical than I was before her MLC or whatever started. Old W would have brushed new W off with a "whatever, you're crazy" speech.

This is tough, U. It [censored]. There is no getting around seeing other people oblivious to your sit, it is just something that you'll eventually get used to. Even though I dont have kids I feel it too - when I see couples who are interacting playfully with each other like my W and I did all the time. Sometimes at a party that is all I see - and I have to remove myself from the room for a few moments to breathe and re-center.

I need to make myself whole and right. This is going to be a rough year ahead settling this divorce.

It doesn't have to be a rough year unless you want it to be. You've already been through the worst of it. And please don't think about a whole year down the road. That's too far right now - it will only lead to more anxiety.

Take care of yourself and your kids. The rest will follow in due time.

Stay strong buddy

[unchien]

W and I had a chat yesterday while handing off D3 (other 2 kids were at school). D3 was in the car, and the conversation escalated because W wanted to wait until spring to sell the house for a better price. And it is my fault for renting a second house which is causing us to spend into our savings.

And then, at some point, she hit me with it for the first time:

She resents me for us moving 2 years ago.

I put this in bold because I believe it is the truth, and also cannot believe she never told me this. Not once.

We went to 4 months of MC1 last year and she reassured me that she was fully on board with the move and that it was best for our family. It never came up as a source of friction. Instead she closed me off, and periodically would lash out at me about finances, or kids, or housework, or what have you, and I felt like I could never please her. And then she tells me she left her heart open to me, that she still loved me, and was waiting for me to "win her back" (same language as last week).

Had she brought this up a year ago, I would have been open to trying to move back and telecommuting to my current job. But she didn't. She explicitly said the move was not a problem. She thinks I wanted to move here and basically coerced her - what I wanted was security and stability for my family, in a lifestyle according to my W's wishes. That couldn't happen where we used to live. The insane part of this is after a year of establishing myself in my job up here, my employer would GLADLY allow me to telecommute from where we used to live. We could EASILY have made that move, had she brought it up. Instead, we spent MC1 detailing how I would do more laundry and housework...

I am extremely aggravated by all of this. I loved my W dearly. I would have jumped through hoops to win her back, had she given me any indication of what I could do. But when you are fighting outright resentment, and the other person has built up walls around their heart... it's a hopeless cause. I am also grateful for going through this personal hell because I have changed and I will be a happier person than had we worked through things then. But still... I don't know if I will ever be able to understand what has happened.

There are things I want to say to her but never will. I will probably make a post about this soon just to let it all out. Rather than communicating openly, honestly and respectfully, she hid behind her resentment and then mindread me in the worst possible way:

- Pull over the car to talk about our marriage crumbling? UC is about to run me off the road!

- Take S7 out with a pellet gun to shoot at a target? UC might go on a rampage!

- Go play guitar by myself to relax? UC is losing his mind!

- Write a love letter? UC is emotionally imbalanced!

- Respect the need for time and space in our separation? UC is not making an effort to win me back!

- Bring up that financially this separation is problematic? Money is a huge emotional trigger for UC!

- Lose some weight because of the pre-BD stress? UC may have borderline personality disorder!

"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die." - St. Augustine.

This quote resonates for me constantly. I am not the world's greatest communicator. I probably was too passive, and DB in some ways is a passive approach to communication, for good reasons. But I did try in my own clumsy way. I tried. My W bottled up her resentment and periodically blew up at me, in ways that confused me. I knew she was unhappy, but I felt completely powerless to fix it. We went to counseling. I tried to talk to her but felt shut out. I wish I had figured out how to just talk with her in a way that worked for both of us. I did tons of research on couples communication last year - podcasts, reading - I tried out the techniques. It just... didn't... work.

Lately I've dropped some of the DB techniques. Yesterday during this chat she said she spent all weekend crying and mourning the loss of her dream of living near her family. She went on and on. I said, "Yeah ... I spent the last 6 months crying a lot mourning the loss of our marriage." I know this was a DB mistake. But... my feelings are valid and I don't have to validate her with "Oh yeah that must be hard not living near your family... " I tried validation for months and it got me through the separation, but I'm tired of being a blank canvas for her to project all of her feelings onto. Maybe she needs to hear that I'm hurt, that I feel, that I have actual human emotions.

She also said "I know you hate my family." I told her that was really harsh. I had a close relationship with her dad, and even last weekend D5 wrote a spontaneous note to her grandma that I helped her put in an envelope and mail. She said "Well you seem really cold because you don't ask about them." (sigh)... there is literally no winning.

She brought up again that if she asked me to move back in, would I? And I again said, like I did last week, "No. I would tell you we need to work on things." This was a weird thing to ask a second time. I didn't take it as an honest ask. I think she wanted to see this as confirmation I am done. She can spin it however she wants...

I'll wrap this up with some honesty: What I am grieving is this all seems so .... fixable. It seems like a communication breakdown that went horribly wrong. And I know viewing things this way shows me that I still hold onto a thread of that rope.

[MLCxH]

This is why the standard advice is to not believe anything they say. There is no winning here and whatever you do, they will always find a way to assign blame.

I'll wrap this up with some honesty: What I am grieving is this all seems so .... fixable. It seems like a communication breakdown that went horribly wrong. And I know viewing things this way shows me that I still hold onto a thread of that rope.

I deal with this too. Even today I feel that my ex and I had some problems but everything was fixable. However, it clearly was not fixable from her perspective, if it was we would not be D today. Sad thing is that we are still a good match for each other compared to a potential new partner. But it takes two people to make a relationship and clearly that criteria was not met here. So, as hard as it can be you have to accept that it is not really fixable. As far as the communication breakdown, you reached that conclusion based on what she is 'saying' and you cannot really believe what is being said.

[AnotherStander]

And then, at some point, she hit me with it for the first time:

She resents me for us moving 2 years ago.

I put this in bold because I believe it is the truth, and also cannot believe she never told me this. Not once.

We went to 4 months of MC1 last year and she reassured me that she was fully on board with the move and that it was best for our family.

U, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. She's rewriting history. Last year she was fully onboard and said it was best for the family. Now that she's a full-blown WAS she's opened up her WAS handbook and started spouting script at you, and you BELIEVE it? You've been here long enough to know better

[unchien]

I deal with this too. Even today I feel that my ex and I had some problems but everything was fixable. However, it clearly was not fixable from her perspective, if it was we would not be D today. Sad thing is that we are still a good match for each other compared to a potential new partner. But it takes two people to make a relationship and clearly that criteria was not met here. So, as hard as it can be you have to accept that it is not really fixable. As far as the communication breakdown, you reached that conclusion based on what she is 'saying' and you cannot really believe what is being said.

This is precisely how I feel. We are a good match for each other in many ways.

U, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. She's rewriting history. Last year she was fully onboard and said it was best for the family. Now that she's a full-blown WAS she's opened up her WAS handbook and started spouting script at you, and you BELIEVE it? You've been here long enough to know better

Even as I write these things, there is a voice in my head now (thanks to DB) that tells me there is nothing I can do, she is going to blame me for it all, let it go. I know. There are times I doubt the voice. But these incidents only serve to reinforce my belief that I truly can do no right and I need to let it go.

The problem I have here is that I do believe she resents me for the move. I feel like she finally said something that was true, or at least matched my truth. I'm not saying we shouldn't have moved. These communication issues, and my W being controlling and communicating poorly, would have continued to persist. But she likely would not have completely submersed herself in the victim narrative full of resentment. Maybe in this alternative universe we would have stayed M'd, but I would have been less happy in the long run regardless.

[LH19]

U,

I just want to hit on some points that you commented on above. The first is something AS talks about all the time and that you are probably never going to understand what happened. I am not even sure WWs know for sure why they are choosing this path. They have to believe in some way life we will be better. The next point is the fixable comment. Again I think all the LBS feel the same way. In my case my ex and I were still physically attracted to one another, enjoyed the same things, financially set for life etc. We just didn't know how to meet each other's needs. By the time I realized we were in crisis mode she was done and didn't want to try anymore. I feel good in the fact that once I knew we were in trouble I gave everything I could to save my marriage. You will get there too.

Last comment is have you thought about moving back in until the house sells to save on money?

[neffer]

That´s why the need of living on real time, not longing for past days or previewing unknown future. That´s why we need to GAL and get into daily routines. It´s hard but we must do that effort.

Wishing all the best for you and the kids Onedog ;-)

Be strong man. Keep DB. Man, you made me tear a little...

Be strong there!

(((unchien)))

[unchien]

U,

I just want to hit on some points that you commented on above. The first is something AS talks about all the time and that you are probably never going to understand what happened. I am not even sure WWs know for sure why they are choosing this path. They have to believe in some way life we will be better.

One of my D'd friends told me recently that as time passes he understands less and less why his D happened. I know that I should not expect closure and that I will never understand. That doesn't mean I won't spend time trying though

The next point is the fixable comment. Again I think all the LBS feel the same way. In my case my ex and I were still physically attracted to one another, enjoyed the same things, financially set for life etc. We just didn't know how to meet each other's needs. By the time I realized we were in crisis mode she was done and didn't want to try anymore. I feel good in the fact that once I knew we were in trouble I gave everything I could to save my marriage. You will get there too.

It's the same story for so many of us, right? By the time we come here, our spouse is done.

I always feel like I could have done more. But I also feel like I tried in my own way the best that I could. When my W says I didn't "win her back" I think... that's how it works in the movies, real relationships take both parties working. And I don't think she worked at it. She was not honest and open with me. Whether that was her fear or insecurities or resentment, relationships don't work without some level of open communication and a willingness to talk about difficult things.

Last comment is have you thought about moving back in until the house sells to save on money?

This is a really interesting point and I will think about it. That house does have a separate guest area with its own mini-kitchen. I would have to break my current lease, but in my state the landlord is obligated to re-rent the property as quickly as possible.

I am concerned that this would make the situation more intense for awhile and disrupt my own healing process. But it is something to consider.

[LH19]

U,

If you follow my posts I comment a lot about how winning her back, making grand gestures etc. only works in the movies. I never will forget my MC saying that when two people come to see her and their attitude is divorce is not an option she has a 100% success rate. I have also read that 75% of people who filed for divorce 5 years later say they wished they would have tried harder.

[AnotherStander]

The problem I have here is that I do believe she resents me for the move.

Oh sure, she does NOW! That's my point, that's what rewriting history means. A year ago she was completely fine with it, said it was best for the family, and she wasn't lying! At that time she believed what she was saying. Now? It was a terrible idea that unchien forced her into against her will, and she resents you for it. That right there is classic rewriting of history. She wasn't lying then, she isn't lying now. If you're looking at the marriage through rose-colored glasses she has inky-black glasses on, now she sees the bad as bad and the good as bad and everything in-between as bad. With time she will remember there were good things in the M, but not now, and not for a good long while. So when she talks crazy talk you listen and validate and dismiss. Don't let it keep you up at night.

These communication issues, and my W being controlling and communicating poorly, would have continued to persist. But she likely would not have completely submersed herself in the victim narrative full of resentment. Maybe in this alternative universe we would have stayed M'd, but I would have been less happy in the long run regardless.

I think there is a certain amount of inevitability to many of our sitches. I spent a lot of time considering what I should have done differently. How I could have been a better husband and father. My conclusion? I could have done better but I don't think it would have changed anything. What my XW went through, I don't think any actions on my part could have prevented it. I think the same could be said for most people here, maybe not all but certainly most. The people who end up here are not flaming jerks, they are good, loving, dedicated, loyal people who don't understand why they are here and are truly heart-broken and desperate to make things better. What does that kind of person sound like? A great spouse, that's what. When my XW and I had our ill-fated attempts at MC the C asked W if she respected me, and she said yes. She asked if she loved me and she said yes. She said "what about the sex, is he selfish in that regard? Doesn't meet your needs?" She said "Oh the sex is fantastic, in fact I wouldn't mind continuing to have sex!" The C looked GENUINELY astonished at these answers. She looked at W and said "So you love him, respect him and have great sex with him. In marriage counseling we call those the 3 pillars of a marriage, without any one of them the marriage can't be held up. But what you're describing we call the makings of a great marriage! So what exactly is wrong?" She said "I don't know, I just don't want to be married anymore."

That's a long story but the point is simply that it may have been inevitable regardless of what you may have done differently.

If you follow my posts I comment a lot about how winning her back, making grand gestures etc. only works in the movies. I never will forget my MC saying that when two people come to see her and their attitude is divorce is not an option she has a 100% success rate. I have also read that 75% of people who filed for divorce 5 years later say they wished they would have tried harder.

I absolutely believe all of that. Especially the last, I think it takes a good 5 years for all the anger and resentment and stubbornness to die down and for normal thought processes to return.

[unchien]

Time for a new thread:

Things are trending up...