Feeling Hopeless... - DivorceBusting.com

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So... this is me starting a new thread cause my last one got waaaay too long.

here is my most recent thread for anyone that's interested.

My Most Recent Thread

Things are basically the same. Thanks Dom for the advice. I'll respond to the post in a little bit. I really appreciate you laying it out for me, i think that is really the only way to do it at this point.

thanks HS - i appreciate your insight as well. I'll respond to everything later.

thanks everyone!!! $\:\)$ ann

Originally Posted By: Dom R

I am merely saying that you cant 'fix that'. or at least not right now. you gotta focus on your #1 priority first: your marriage. Fix THAT first, and then your children's issues will become a whole lot easier to help afterwards.

Until that time, you might try to protect them or divert them, or just encourage them to be not around "dad" as much, if he doesnt seem to want them around him.

Thanks. I know that i can't make him be a better dad. I can't make him be nice to them. I have started just keeping them away from him, especially when i know he's in an especially bad mood. When he starts yelling at them, i tell him to let me handle them and he normally just goes back to whatever he's doing. I think when i ask him for help with them and he doesn't want to it's like he takes it out on them. Any ideas on how i can get him to help me with the girls (something on my list) without him being bitter about it and taking it out on them?

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he has to realize what changes he needs to make, and why he needs to make them.
Right now, I think he believes that he does not have to make any changes... because you will eventually give up and do everything he says. (or close enough for his liking)

That's pretty much the way i am. I have a lot on my plate and it's always been easier to submit to what he wants than to fight it. If i had realized that it would get me here, i would have suffered the headaches then cause they are about 100 times worse now.

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The most important thing, is to let him know, up front, cooly and calmly, exactly what you need to see from him.
As I keep stressing, this needs to be specific actions.
It's tough to make "specific actions", about him talking disrespectfully to you, i admit... that's an exception. You MUST confront hiim when he does that. No way around that. That doesnt mean yelling, though.
What he has to do on his part, is listen to you when you confront him. If he doesnt, that becomes part of his "required actions" that you demand.

Thank you. i'm putting listening to me at the top of my list... $\:\)$

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also, DO NOT SETTLE for breadcrumbs.
Make sure that he really gets committed to FULLY meeting your needs, before you reverse things.

this will probably be the hardest part for me. How am i supposed to know that he's going to keep doing what i need or if he's just doing it til i stop asking for it.

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This is really tough stuff, as I said. It will take tremendous willpower to see this through, given your previous patterns with you.

I'm doing ok so far. I kinda feel like this is my last chance to make this work, not because he's going any where, but because i can't handle it. what you said about once i'm prepared for a real divorce that i'll be less likely to want to fix it. I think i've already kind of prepared myself and that's making this hard, but i'm going to try realy hard. thank you for always helping me along even when i'm not very good at taking advice...

Originally Posted By: HopefulSorrow

Wow ann I just spent close to 3 hours reading this entire thread

WOW... $\:\)$ thank you

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I know it has for me, when my wife moved out and said she wanted a divorce, I wanted nothing more than to work on the R/M more passionately than I ever have wanted anything before in the past.

i'm sooo hoping it doesn't come to that.

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I understood what dom is trying to say also about how your little girl's will be worse off post-divorce, yes he may not be treating them very well at all right now, but going through a divorce will throw a lot more "scary" people at them that you cant protect them from who just want to divy them up like they're nothing more than good china. So still think seriously about whether, even though they are being treated bad, that putting them through that wouldnt be worse and would last a hell of a lot longer(their whole lives)

I get that too. i guess for me, i have to determine what level of emotional abuse i'm willing to let mey girls suffer through. For me, if he was physically abusive to me or them, i'd be gone already. There would be no working on it, i'd be gone. To me, while emotional abuse is not the same, it still hurts and leaves people (especially young children) scarred. If it were just me, i'd probably just deal with it, but it's not just me.

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I know I may not be providing much help but I hope that at least I could help in someway.

you've been helpful. Even if you have not advice and simply stop by to say hi, it's encouraging and that is helpful!! $\:\)$ Thanks!

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God does love you and wants nothing more than to keep your family together, but your the one who has to do all the work. Good luck

I know that God doesn't want to see my family fall apart, i remind myself of that as i sit in church every week alone. Maybe one of these days i can get him to actually come with me when he says he will...

ok - so now that i've responded, i'll give a little update.

We are in the process of selling our home because the rent keeps going up and with gas prices, i need to be closer to work. He works from home, so that makes it easier. On tuesday last week, his friend offered to rent us part of his home (has a very large home and is a single guy) so not only would we be closer, but we could save some money cause he wouldn't charge us what it would cost us anywhere else. We talked about it and got advice from some friends and family and decided that this would be the best thing right now.

From my perspective, outside of the money saving aspect, H tends to be a little nicer when other people are around and while this guy is out of town alot on business, i think it could help him think about the way he is treating all of us.

Friday-
i had a dr. appt and stuff during the day, but i figured that Friday night, after the girls went to bed, would be a good time to talk to him. i had pretty much prepared myself all day. I wanted to be able to tell him what exactly i needed without getting too emotional and without letting him interrupt me.

We needed to go out and get some things from the store, so we all went. I asked if maybe we could all have dinner out after we were done. i thought it would be a nice thing. I'm on a diet, but i can find something pretty much anywhere. He said it was fine and that he wanted a specific restaurant. When he came up to the freeway entrance (freeway goes to restaurant, otherwise we head home) he asked what we were doing what had i decided. i told him to go where he wanted. Apparently, i had an attitude (i don't recall that, but he said so) and he got mad. He got quiet and wouldn't talk to me. Everything he said, he yelled.

He stopped by fast food and ordered something for the girls. he asked what i wanted and i told him i didn't want anything. that made him mad too. Anyways, we went home, he went inside and shut himself into his office, then spent the rest of the night in our bedroom (he even ate in there).

Normally, i would check on him, see if he's ok, see what i could do to help his mood, but i can't keep doing that. He came out cause he said he needed to go out for a little bit and i took that time to try and talk to him.

I told him that we couldn't keep going on like this. I told him that I need things to change because if things keep heading down the path they are on, our family would fall apart. i told him that i need him to be more respectful of me and less insulting. I told him that if he doesn't know what to do or what I need that i at least need him to listen to me when i tell him that something bothers me because i'll tell him specifics as they happen.

I told him that i need him to help me more with the girls. I told him i don't care if you play with them or help them with things, but if i'm doing something (cooking, cleaning, homework...etc) that i need him to change diapers, get drinks and make sure they stay in bed at night. That if one cries, i need him to check on it.

I told him that sometimes i just need some space. Just because i don't want to sit right next to him on the couch doesn't mean i'm cheating or want to leave, just that i need my own personal space sometimes.

I also told him that i need him to accept me as i am. If i tell him that i've done my best, that's it. He's not getting anything more than that out of me. i always try my best to keep things going well and that if there is something extra he'd like to see done in the house that i would appreciate his help with that cause right now, i'm doing what i can.

I asked him if there was anything he'd like me to work on or change because i want to be the best wife i can be.

he said no.

I told him that i needed him to tell me he'd work on these things. i said that i didn't need him to do everything right this second, but to start working on it so that I know he cares enough about me to try.

he said, and i quote, "fine, i'll try"

i told him that i appreciate it.

Later, he told me that he feels like i'm acting the same way now as when i was talking to OM. That if i just want to leave him i should just tell him now rather than asking for him to do things that won't even help. That when he told me what's been bothering him lately was dealing with moving (he's been acting strange lately) that it wasn't he was thinking about me being with OM. I never was, but he was imagining it... i told him that i was sorry he was feeling that way and maybe next time, he could talk to me about it rather than just imagining things for weeks and keeping it in. he said "yeah, whatever" then told me he was going to bed. He went to bed and was asleep by the time i got eveything in the house shut off and the baby in the bedroom.

We haven't talked much since. It's been a couple of busy days. He's been gone all day today, so maybe we'll talk tonight if he comes home. We'll see...

$\:\)$ ann

Wow.. big night for you! I'm going to reply to your other stuff, but a quick mini-reply here to not get things mixed up:

Originally Posted By: ann25

Any ideas on how i can get him to help me with the girls (something on my list) without him being bitter about it and taking it out on them?

Given how volatile your situation is... I think i would recommend that you not even go there. I think that it might be best, if you instead asked him to help with Other things, that in some way helped you deal with the girls better yourself.

if you need time away... I think you would be best off, arranging for babysitting directly, yourself.

Given your current mental state, I think it is likely that, whatever your initial intentions... any attempt by you of bringing up the subject of your girls.. will eventually head down the road of "they're your children too, why dont you spend more time with them, ....".

So... better to just not go there.
At the very most, ask him for money for babysitting(if you need it), but i suggest not asking for his direct involvement in any way there.

Even if he DID choose to follow what you ask in that area... it would build resentment from him. So.. not a good idea, i think.

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thank you for always helping me along even when i'm not very good at taking advice...

you're welcome. I just always hope that my advice is actually useful and helpful to the person $\:\)$

Sigh.. another mini-post.. another one coming later.. stay tuned.. :-)

Originally Posted By: ann25

Friday-
i had a dr. appt and stuff during the day, but i figured that Friday night, after the girls went to bed, would be a good time to talk to him.
.... Apparently, i had an attitude (i don't recall that, but he said so) and he got mad. He got quiet and wouldn't talk to me. Everything he said, he yelled.

He stopped by fast food and ordered something for the girls. he asked what i wanted and i told him i didn't want anything. that made him mad too.

and now for the meat of this post.
Sounds like you need a little "Male translator" help.

We're generally pretty dense about female moods... but sometimes, even we can tell "something's up"

He somehow could tell you were gearing up to something.

It's really, REALLY important that you understand this aspect of him. Because ONE of you has to... otherwise, this sort of thing will keep reoccuring.. and HE's not likely to get struck by the lightning bolt of revelation $;\)$

guys want to "fix things".
he could tell "something's wrong".
When something's wrong, a guy wants to FIX IT!
You not talking, made him unable to fix it.

You saying you "didnt want anything", translated in his mind, that, "something's REAAALLY wrong... but you wont talk about it. ".

Which, to the average guys' mind, kinda registers like, "well, there's this great big bubbling water heater, that's at max pressure,boiling at around 200 degrees, it's going to blow up... and I have no idea where the pressure release valve is, or what else to do."

he really really wanted to fix it. but he didnt know how to.
When confronted with this sort of situation, guys tend to do one of two things:

a) pound it with a sledgehammer (metaphorically speaking), or
b) run away and hide [either to avoid admitting failure of "i cant fix it", or just to avoid an "explosion"]

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Anyways, we went home, he went inside and shut himself into his office, then spent the rest of the night in our bedroom (he even ate in there).

Guess what he did?

-----

PS: alternative theory:
while everything I said can be true of a male in general.... it is also worth considering that your gearing up to talk, made you tight-lipped and snippy... which really could simply be taken as having "a [hostile] attitude".

SO.. there's a grain of salt for ya $;\)$

AWWWRIGHT, now my comments on the
final stuff of your post.. your "big talk" with your H...

Hmm.
not the best timing, but better to be said, than not said.

overall, sounds like you did a pretty good job of laying things out for him.

I hope you will still keep in mind what I wrote about him helping with the girls, above.
To that end, when you "need help watching them when you are cooking/cleaning/wahtever".... consider giving him HIS CHOICE, of either watching the girls, OR, doing the cooking/cleaning/whatever himself. you might be surprised at which he picks.

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Later, he told me that he feels like i'm acting the same way now as when i was talking to OM. That if i just want to leave him i should just tell him now rather than asking for him to do things that won't even help.

Final, critical comment!

I think it's really really important for you to go back and tell him the truth about how you feel. That is to say, tell him, that ;

yes, you feel just like you did about him, when you started talking to the OM. That is how badly you feel about things.
The key difference this time, is that this time, you are choosing to try to deal with your feelings and problems, the way you should have the first time: by confronting him about them.

(which is the only real and fair way to reach mutual resolution of them!)

The above is a very concise set of words, yet has a very powerful impact on many levels:

1. it lets him know just how serious things are.
2. it acknowleges to him, that you did not handle things right the last time. (which should actually shut him up a bit on that)
3. it sets a new expectation from here on in, that when you have major problems with him, you will talk to him about them, rather than just running away from confrontation.

If you can get these things through to him in this way... I think it could set the stage as the turning point in your marriage.

Lots and lots of work to do ahead still $;\)$ Mostly, from you, making sure to speak up each and every time he talks badly to you, etc.
But if both of you can come together on those 3 things... I think that you two could head towards having a great marriage together. You would start to shovel "junk" OUT and away from your lives, rather than burying yourself in more of it

PS: (it's odd that he said he thinks these things "wont even help". But some men really dont understand how important you think those things are.
He could probably use some reassurance from you that yes, they really will help)

Ok, now i'm done for the night. happy reading $\:\)$ and I hope you find something useful in all that.

WOW - Thanks Dom - You were busy... $\:\)$

In regards to the first post and asking him for help. I don't need his help, i just want it. i can handle it and you are right, it's better that i don't even ask.

It's not even so much that i want him to spend time with them, but just treat them a little better. i know i can't focus on that, but it still kills me.

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At the very most, ask him for money for babysitting(if you need it), but i suggest not asking for his direct involvement in any way there.

The last time i needed to get something done i called my sister. She loves the girls. She doesn't understand why he can't watch them, but i just told her it's easier for me this way, so she helps me out.

I know that i can't focus on the girls and him, but his inability to grow up and be a father just tends to make me think negatively about him. I've always wanted 4 or 5 kids. He should have told me if he didn't want any.

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You saying you "didnt want anything", translated in his mind, that, "something's REAAALLY wrong... but you wont talk about it. ".

I do appreciate what you are saying here, but he knows that i'm on a diet and i try not to eat fast food. 99% of the time, when we pick up something and take it home, i'll eat whatever we have at home. He knows this, so it shouldn't have been so bad.

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PS: alternative theory:
while everything I said can be true of a male in general.... it is also worth considering that your gearing up to talk, made you tight-lipped and snippy... which really could simply be taken as having "a [hostile] attitude".

I can also appreciate this except normally, if i have an attitude with him, he's really quick to mention what a b**** i'm being. It's not something that comes up often, but he certainly doesn't miss a chance to point that out. Maybe he was just being nice? doesn't seem likely.

now onto #3

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Hmm.
not the best timing, but better to be said, than not said.

I agree, not the best timing, but if we have many more of these nights when he goes off into the other room and throws a fit, there will be nothing left to talk about, so i figured i better get it out.

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To that end, when you "need help watching them when you are cooking/cleaning/wahtever".... consider giving him HIS CHOICE, of either watching the girls, OR, doing the cooking/cleaning/whatever himself. you might be surprised at which he picks.

I actually did that last night. I was cooking dinner and he told me that D2 needed a new diaper. I asked him if he could change it since i was in the middle of cooking. He said she'd probably be fine until i was done. I told him i'd just prefer to clean her up now, would he mind watching the food for a couple minutes so i could change her and he said he was doing something maybe in a little bit. I just turned off the stove and went and did it. I know that he knows i'll do this, so i probably should have just waited for his help (if he ever would have), but i'm not going to leave her in a dirty diaper if i don't have to... So, basically, he chose neither.

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yes, you feel just like you did about him, when you started talking to the OM. That is how badly you feel about things.
The key difference this time, is that this time, you are choosing to try to deal with your feelings and problems, the way you should have the first time: by confronting him about them.

So, here's the thing. I don't feel like i did last time. That was a totally different situation. He was sleeping in his office, he still wanted a divorce, we weren't talking, we didn't spend anytime together and he wouldn't even touch me. I was trying to figure out a way to either get him back or get over him when i met OM. i was in a totally differnt place, so for me to say, i feel the same is crazy. I don't even know how he has any idea how i was acting then cause we never spent any time together. I might be acting similarly cause i was miserable then and at least in my M i am miserable, but my feelings - no way near the same.

everytime we talk about it (it usually comes up because i confront him about something) I tell him that the difference this time is that NOW, i know why i did that before. it was because i just hid how i was feeling and didn't tell him how badly he was hurting me because i figured it would go away and this time i'm telling him cause i won't let that happen again. I told him that it was the biggest mistake i've ever made, but i did learn a lot from it about myself, so i know what i need to do to prevent it from happening again.

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I think he feels like it's inevitable that i'm eventually going to leave or cheat on him. He's never trusted me or anyone for that matter, so i think he doesn't think anything can help. I did tell him that those things really will help not only me, but our relationship. But there is a catch, he actually has to do them... Yesterday, he went over to where we will be living to help them move some stuff they had in the empty rooms. When he got back, the first thing he does when he walks in the house is say "i guess it will never really be clean, will it" not hi or anything else, just his disapproval... he asked me if i was going to work on it more this week. I told him of course i was and i asked him if he could point out what wasn't clean enough for him so that i could work on that. (to me, it was clean, so i'm not really sure what his problem was) he says, that if i can't even tell, he'll just have to deal with it. then he said, you know, you always say it'll get better, but it never does. i told him that if he could tell me what he wanted, i could do it. He said that he might as well just start doing everything himself cause that's the only way it will ever get done... i told him he was more than welcome to.

here is my question: how do i confront him about the fact that he's completely ignoring the things that i asked him to do. Helping with the girls or other stuff so i can handle the girls. and being super critical of how i clean the house. I probably should have said something right away, but what i wanted to to say and what's good for my M, are on opposite ends of the spectrum, so i figured it was best to leave it alone.

it's frustrating cause i feel almost like one of those women that got M thinking that their H would change or that they could change them. It would be different if i had met him now and this is how he was. That's probably just how he's gonna be, but i just expected him to grow up a little bit from 16 to 26. The only difference now is that he keeps a job and then he couldn't. other than that, he's the same boy that i started dating 10 years ago... i really thought he'd grow up...

Thanks again Dom for your advice...

Wow. complicated.
Interesting that you pointed out that things are different now, from when you were pursuing OM. Good to know and be aware of.

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yes, he chose to do nothing... and you let him.
This has to stop.. And there's no time like the present.

My take on how you could have handled it better;
"She needs to be taken care of, NOW, not later. Would YOU like to sit around in crap for a few minutes?
This food also needs watching, right now. So, are you going to change her, or come watch the food?"

In situations like these, I think you have to stop being so "polite". No more of the "I would prefer it" language. He takes that as "I can ignore it".
Stop letting him feel entitled to just loaf around the house goofing off.

Personally, if you're both home, and he's basically just goofing around... I think you should have him handle dinner more often.
Particularly while you have the newborn. Right now, I'm presuming he handles dinner at home, let's say... never?
Even if he just decides to call and have something delivered, that's one less thing you have to deal with.
Just so long as its not drive-through every time?

Good job on handling the house cleaning argument. Possibly even a little stronger, would have been better. You know there's going to be a next time, so for that time, perhaps something like,
"I do the best that I can do. If you want it 'better than the best that I can do', then you need to either hire someone, or do it yourself. Or just ACCEPT HOW I DO IT. "
(remind him about you telling him a few days ago he needs to accept you )
Then, ask him to pick which one it's going to be.

No more just letting him silently sulk at your attempt at self-defense, yet still letting him repeatedly bring it up to gripe about later. Make him actually pick a RESOLUTION to this long-standing problem, there and then.

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i just expected him to grow up a little bit from 16 to 26. The only difference now is that he keeps a job and then he couldn't. other than that, he's the same boy that i started dating 10 years ago... i really thought he'd grow up...

Thanks again Dom for your advice...

As far as I've heard, the path of turning little boys into men, involves selectively expecting more out of them than little boys' behaviour. Then, and only then, do they start growing into responsible adulthood.

COME OUT ...COME OUT ...WHEREVER YOU ARE!

Ok it has been a week since we have seen you. I hope you are experiencing some joys during this "no posting" time. Let us know how you are, ok? I'll keep praying.

hi all. Sorry i've been away. I'm back at work now, so i'll be here more often... $\:\)$

During this last week we moved. It has been a busy and stressful time for us.

Day care will be going up about $600 per month now that i'm back at work, so we have a family friend watching the girls. We are kind of trying her out to see how she does cause i'm a little worried that she won't be able to handle it. H decided that if she doesn't work out, he'll just keep them home with him...

i can't get him to change a diaper or keep his temper with them and now he wants to keep them home with him all day while he's working. I expressed my concerns about it. I never said I didn't think he could handle it or that he wouldn't do a good job, but i did tell him that they are a lot of work and need more attention than his job will allow him to give them. I told him that i didn't want him to feel like he was stretched too thin. He got mad because i guess my mom had said something similar to him and so now i'm taking her side... I didn't even know she talked to him and i told him very clearly that this was my own personal concern and had nothing to do with my mother. Anyways... that should be a fun experiment. He had them today (with someone's help) and is already wondering what he's going to do tomorrow.

It's hard talking to my H sometimes. I'm really struggling with his insecurities and the fact that he refuses to deal with them... He made a comment about how now that we've moved there is nothing really tying me to him anymore (cause we are selling our home and renting) and how it would be easy for me to just walk away. I asked him if he really thought that was how i felt and he said no, he was just kidding. I reassured him anyways, but i know him. He wouldn't have said it if there wasn't some truth to it.

OK - Beyond that, let me respond to Dom...

Originally Posted By: DomR

In situations like these, I think you have to stop being so "polite". No more of the "I would prefer it" language. He takes that as "I can ignore it".
Stop letting him feel entitled to just loaf around the house goofing off.

you are right. I am always polite about things. I am really trying not to be as nice about things.

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I think you should have him handle dinner more often.

LOL... sorry, that was funny. If i don't cook, he will either not eat or just grab a bag of chips or something. It's important to me that my Ds eat well, so i make sure that they have food. There have only been a couple times that i haven't fed them if i have to go out and one of those times they ate potato chips for dinner... the other time i can think of he made tv dinners and i told him what a great idea that was and how much i appreciate him taking care of that. He is perfectly capable of doing things, he just doesn't. When I had wrist surgery and couldn't cook, we at pizza for like a week. that's just not healthy. That and i really enjoy cooking and baking. it's something that i'm good at and (when thing go smoothly) helps me relax...

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"I do the best that I can do. If you want it 'better than the best that I can do', then you need to either hire someone, or do it yourself. Or just ACCEPT HOW I DO IT. "
(remind him about you telling him a few days ago he needs to accept you )
Then, ask him to pick which one it's going to be.

this is good. i do need to be stronger about things like that.

When i reminded him about how he's agreed to make some changes, he reminded me that i said i didn't need everything all at once. So i told him that i don't, but something does need to start changing. I told him if he doesn't feel like our M and Family is worth the effort that he should tell me now, either that or commit to actually making some changes. He said that i and just trying to start a fight that of course he thinks it's worth it. I told him that i'm not trying to start a fight, i'm trying to save our M. he didn't say anything, so maybe he thought about that a little.

So, i'm not really sure how things are right now. We've been so busy moving and packing that we haven't really talked. He's had a super short temper, but i'm figuring most of that is because of the move, so i'm letting it go. My in-laws have been a god-send with watching the girls while we do everything.

So - there it is... time to go home now... see you all tomorrow.

ann $\:\)$

ps... THANK YOU!!!

Hi Ann, it has been a long time! So good to see you hear just to say hello. You were always so sweet to me on my stitch. Guess I need to catch up with what has been going on with you. Anyway, just wanted to pop in and say hi. Hope you are taking care.

Sandi

Thanks for the update Ann. I appreciate hearing from you. I hope you are getting settled into the new place. I'll be praying for you and your H, that you will be patient with one another and compassionate. I'll also pray for steady positive growth in your R, no matter what the pace of it might be. Good night and God bless you and the family.

HI Ann!
glad to hear that you are still in a "working on it" frame of mind. That's the best thing $\:\)$

some quick words before i hopefully turn in for the night...

about the daycare thing... I think you're doing pretty well there. That is to say, leaving him room to "step up", IF he decides to do so. Neither extreme of forcing him to do it all, OR forcing him to stay out of it, is a good thing really.
If he wants to get involved now, even though he never has before... great! Give him encouragement and help when he asks for it, and back off(as much as is safe for your daughter) when he doesnt. allow him to make mistakes, so long as they arent long-term harmful. it's the best learning experience $;\)$

Originally Posted By: ann25

Originally Posted By: DomR

I think you should have him handle dinner more often.

Hrrm.

What I could have said better, however, was , instead of "let him" take care of dinner... more along the lines of telling him, "ok, tonight, it's your turn to take care of dinner FOR ALL OF US". Him, Ds's, AND you.
I'm pretty sure he wouldnt dare to feed you potato chips

but you still might be stuck with frozen dinners.
I think that you could have *some* amount of input, into what is provided for the family. ie: a counter-"suggestion" of, "well, tv dinners are one thing... but what if you got takeout from xyz instead?"

If he still says "no i just want to do tv dinners", though... you should then accept it gracefully. Remember, you're asking him to do this, to relieve YOU, of dinner duty sometimes. So if that is accomplished, even if it's not to your perfect satisfaction... you have to live with it.
He has to accept your efforts in some areas, so you have to accept his. right?

Quote:

I told him if he doesn't feel like our M and Family is worth the effort that he should tell me now, either that or commit to actually making some changes. He said that i and just trying to start a fight that of course he thinks it's worth it. I told him that i'm not trying to start a fight, i'm trying to save our M.

Any marriage counsellor will tell you, that "starting a fight" is not the worst thing you can do for a marriage. By far a worse thing, is NEVER fighting about ANYTHING.
Then nothing ever gets resolved, and things just keep getting worse and worse.

Just a thought there for you. I think you actually handled that quite well... and, wonder of wonders, you got a good response from him!

Keep fighting for your marriage! (just... fight "with love"? $;\)$ )

It sounds to me like you are doing quite well. This is a long and slow effort... sounds like your efforts are already having some results, though. that's great!

Hi Sandi - long time no see... hehe

Thanks for stopping by to say hi. I've barely been here over the last couple months cause i've been out on maternity leave, but i'm back... How are you doing?

$\:\)$ ann

tomato - thank you for your thoughts and prayers... one can never have too many of those!

I'm trying to be patient, so far it's not going terribly well, but i pray that God will help me in that area...

Take Care $\:\)$ ann

Dear Ann,

I am doing okay. I am back over in Piecing forum again and things with my M are so much better. I do worry about my H's health issues and of course, I still have my own physical problems, but life goes on. I feel a lot more remorse now for what I did where OM is concerned. You know, it took a while for me to actually get to that point....I mean, I was sorry that I hurt my H, etc., and I was embarrased....but I think I was so angry at him not feeling as though he had any part of the breakdown in the M that it blocked me feeling the remorse......and I think I needed to feel that. I have felt more spiritually convicted about it, so I think that is good or else I might find it more tempting when things are tough.

Which brings me to something I saw on one of your posts. I haven't had time to catch up, but I agree that it would be better to sit down at the right time and try to tell your H that you don't plan to ever get involved with OM but that he (your H) is not making it any easier for you by behaving the way he is b/c that was what led you in that direction the last time. I think in regards to what I just said about myself that it makes us WW (I hate that term) feel resentful when all the blame is placed on us for our transgressions but the H won't own his part of the failure in the R. And....when he continues or goes back to the old patterns, it makes us even more resentful b/c we think we might had as well stayed with OM. I'm just saying those are some "thoughts" that I think some of us have.....not that we choose to go back to OM. We just want the H to get on the "program" with us....right?

Anyway, I will try to catch up soon. Are you and the new baby doing okay? I take it was another girl. That's sweet.

Got to go for now. Talk later.

Sandi

Quote:

glad to hear that you are still in a "working on it" frame of mind. That's the best thing

you inspired me to change the subject of my thread... $\:\)$ i'm trying desperately to keep myself in that frame of mind. I keep having moments where i just wonder why i bother, but i do my best to squash those as they occur... hopefully i'll start feeling that way less often.

Quote:

about the daycare thing...

I agree with you about this... I'd absolutely love for him to step up and really start caring for them. Hopefully today will be better than yesterday. Yesterday, they didn't eat lunch and were eating potato chips when i walked in the door at 6:30 last night. He didn't even have the baby as my friend watched her, so we'll see how it goes.

Quote:

He has to accept your efforts in some areas, so you have to accept his. right?

If he actually prepared a meal for our family i would probably die from the shock of it.... $;\)$ just kidding (sort of). I would appreciate any effort. TV dinners, frozen burritos, top ramen (my girls love that stuff)... anything would be fine with me.

Here's a great example of my issue... yesterday, i got home from work and he went upstairs to rest a little. I go to wake him up about an hour later for dinner, he says no. I go up about 30 minutes after that cause the baby was hungry and it's easier to feed her if he can keep an eye on the girls, he said just a minute. I go up 15 minutes later and he says he's just too tired to get up. 45 minutes later i turned on the light and told him he needed to get up and i walked away. he comes down stairs all angry and asks what i want. I told him i needed him to keep an eye on the girls while i fed the baby, so he kinda did for a minute, then they were down sitting on the couch with me while he was doing stuff upstairs. I guess daddy told them to go play somewhere else.

Then he gets upset cause i'm falling asleep feeding the baby. I'm exhausted. I'm getting like 3 hours of sleep at night cause of the baby. Then i'm out working all day and i come home and play with my babies... I don't take 3 hour naps in the evening, i don't wake up at 9 am. It doesn't fit into my schedule.

Am i really asking for so much, that he be awake and keep an eye on the girls for 20 minutes so i can feed the baby?

Quote:

He always accusses me of starting a fight with him. at least once a day, if not more. Heaven forbid i disagree with him.

We fight alot, just never about anything. It's always stupid little things that don't even matter.

I guess the way i said it made his response sound better than it was. He was sarcastic and grumpy about it. The words were right, but the attitude behind them was waaaay off. I'll take what i can get though.

I'm just going to keep trying to do my part of this and pray for the best.

Thanks Dom!! $\:\)$

Quote:

I am back over in Piecing forum again and things with my M are so much better.

I'm so glad to see that. I'm really glad that your feeling's have changed about the OM. Maybe that's what i need. I don't know.

Quote:

I agree that it would be better to sit down at the right time and try to tell your H that you don't plan to ever get involved with OM but that he (your H) is not making it any easier for you by behaving the way he is b/c that was what led you in that direction the last time. I think in regards to what I just said about myself that it makes us WW (I hate that term) feel resentful when all the blame is placed on us for our transgressions but the H won't own his part of the failure in the R. And....when he continues or goes back to the old patterns, it makes us even more resentful b/c we think we might had as well stayed with OM. I'm just saying those are some "thoughts" that I think some of us have.....not that we choose to go back to OM. We just want the H to get on the "program" with us....right?

This is a conversation we've had many times. it's funny, cause sometimes when i think about OM, i can't believe how fooilsh i was to think it was real, but for a moment i did. no matter what it was, he made me feel special and loved, which was something i needed. I just needed it from my H instead. I would never even consider OM again, but I won't settle for less than that again. That's why i'm still working on it cause i really want it to be my H that makes me feel that way. I'm hoping eventually it will be worth the work.

and yes, it was another baby girl and we are both great... they are cute now, but i can't even imagine when they are 17,15,13... that should be fun... hehe.

take care $\:\)$ ann

Hi ann, The dominant advice to you says "assert yourself" then you say "I'm trying, but ...". And then a similar circular argument with the OM - H's bad behavior led to OM, then that led to more bad behavior from H, you complain more, so OM's ghost remains in the background. Seems like a Catch 22?! Did you find smartcookie's approach helpful at all? There are some similarities: internet OM(EA) -> angry/insecure/controlling H -> potential WAW -> (lots of hard work) -> recommitment. There are actually a bunch of other potential WAW around trying to pull it off. I know this sounds more like a push than encouragement!

*wave*

Originally Posted By: ann25

Cheer!

Quote:

Yesterday, they didn't eat lunch and were eating potato chips when i walked in the door at 6:30 last night. He didn't even have the baby as my friend watched her, so we'll see how it goes.

whoa!

how about time to step up and tell your H, "this is not an acceptible way to feed our children. If you cant handle feeding them properly, then I will have [the babysitter do it]"

Quote:

Here's a great example of my issue... yesterday, i got home from work and he went upstairs to rest a little. I go to wake him up about an hour later for dinner, he says no. I go up about 30 minutes after that cause the baby was hungry and it's easier to feed her if he can keep an eye on the girls, he said just a minute. I go up 15 minutes later and he says he's just too tired to get up. 45 minutes later i turned on the light and told him he needed to get up and i walked away.

The question here is... Why did you let him get away with this?
I'd say when you went up "15 minutes later", is the time you should have turned on the light, and STAYED THERE, possibly yelling a bit, until he GOT HIS LAZY BUTT UP then and there!!

WTH is he so tired?!! he needs to get up and get moving more, not lay around more!

He's behaving like a spoiled 15-year-old boy.
Stop ALLOWING him to continue behaving that way.

Quote:

he comes down stairs all angry and asks what i want.

(Sulky 15 year old boy says), okok i'mup whaddyawant, mom? scowl.

This should not be an acceptable way for him to treat you.
The way it becomes not acceptable.... is when you stop accepting it !!!

Didnt he get at you about "your attitude" in the car the other night?

Time for you to start picking up on his bad attitude moments.

Quote:

I'm getting like 3 hours of sleep at night cause of the baby

Clearly, YOU are the one who should be napping upstairs, not him!
When you talk about it with him, though.. make sure to not exaggerate. Dont say "like 3 hours". A guy will most likely ignore statements like that, because he will figure you are just exaggerating.
Be able to tell him truthfully that you had exactly X hours sleep last night, Y hours of sleep the night before, and Z the night before that.

Quote:

So... pick a fight once a day, about the important things, and stop doing the other ones $;\)$

When people dont fix what REALLY needs fixing.... they tend to have fights about "stupid little things", because it gets all built up. There's a phrase for that, but i forget it right now

Choose to fight about the stuff that really needs fixing, and you will probably have less urge to fight about "the stupid things".

Quote:

Thanks Dom!!

you're welcome $\:\)$

Hey fb2 - we don't actually talk about OM anymore. There are more important things to deal with than who takes the blame for what went bad. Maybe someday, but not right now. I think a bigger problem was that i wasn't complaining enough. I just let him do whatever and didn't say anything... OM will go away whenever H is able to forgive, though i suppose it'll never go away, but we'll be able to live with it better.

I'm being more assertive with H. I think he's taking it to mean that I'm upset, which is fine. I am upset with the way my life is right now, so i'm taking steps to change it.

FWIW - not that it really matters what the order of things were, but H wasnted a divorce and we had like in house seperation for a couple months before i met OM.

It sounds to me like you don't think i'm going about doing things right, what would you recommend, i'm totally open to suggestions... $\:\)$ Thanks

ann

Quote:

how about time to step up and tell your H, "this is not an acceptible way to feed our children. If you cant handle feeding them properly, then I will have [the babysitter do it]"

I did. He said he knows, he lost track of time. i just told him i understand and told him that at least there are some lunchables and stuff in the frige and D4 can get those out herself if he tells her to (she has to have permission to get in the frige). He said he knows.

Quote:

Why'd i let him get away with it? i had a crying baby in one arm, D2 that didn't make it to the potty on time and D4 was somewhere downstairs. I don't have time to babysit him too. I know that by letting him sleep, i'm letting him get away with acting like a teenage boy, but when i need to handle things, i don't have time to sit there and bug him until he gets up. i've done that, it takes 10-15 minutes to wake him up, then he's a jerk and i start thinking that i was just better off with him sleeping cause at least then i'm only taking care of 3 kids...

Quote:

When you talk about it with him, though.. make sure to not exaggerate. Dont say "like 3 hours". A guy will most likely ignore statements like that, because he will figure you are just exaggerating.
Be able to tell him truthfully that you had exactly X hours sleep last night, Y hours of sleep the night before, and Z the night before that

Yikes... i just figured out the specifics in of how much sleep i actually get and i probably shouldn't be functioning at this point... last night 2 hours 30 minutes, the night before 3 hours, the night before that 1 hour 45 minutes... i took a nap at lunch, i've gotta figure out how to get him to keep the baby awake during the day...

Quote:

So... pick a fight once a day, about the important things, and stop doing the other ones

most of the time i'm not starting a fight. If i disagree with him about anything, i'm trying to fight with him. On the big things, he tends to either yell and then leave or he just gets super quiet and won't talk to me hardly at all. Unless the conversation involves something i'm not doing right or that i need to change, he doesn't want to talk and when i ask him what i should do diferently, he doesn't know.

Quote:

okok i'mup whaddyawant

i think he actually said that...

sorry if some of that sounds mean or bad or something... i'm really struggling to be positive right now.

Originally Posted By: ann25

It sounds to me like you don't think i'm going about doing things right, what would you recommend, i'm totally open to suggestions... $\:\)$

Hi Ann - You are saying/doing "more of the same" and its still "not working" - look again at the title of your thread. So I recommend(ed) you read and follow-up on "smartcookie" and also try introducing yourself to "forrest gump" and ask for help - he knows how to swing a 2x4. (hint ;-)

Originally Posted By: ann25

Quote:

how about time to step up and tell your H, "this is not an acceptible way to feed our children. If you cant handle feeding them properly, then I will have [the babysitter do it]"

I did. He said he knows, he lost track of time.

This, is where you accepted excuses from HIM.

Quote:

This, is where you started accepting excuses from you

Guess which one is more poisonous to your marriage?

The latter.

If he "cant get up" when you need him to... then he shouldnt be taking naps in the first place. He should stay up until bedtime, then sleep properly, so he doesnt need naps. It's better for him, and it's better for you too.

The thing is, i bet it isnt a matter of "cant get up", though.

I'm going to use a really extreme case. I'm not necessary suggesting you use this.. (maybe $;\)$ ), but for an example...
Do you think it would have taken him 15 mins to get out of bed, if you dumped an ice cold glass of water on him?

Stop accepting excuses from him.
Stop accepting excuses from YOURSELF.

to continue with the prior metaphor:

15 year old boys, take 15-30 mins to get out of bed.

ADULTS, get out of bed when it is time.
Start expecting him to act like an adult. no more excuses.

Originally Posted By: Dom

Start expecting him to act like an adult. no more excuses.

I will echo this sentiment. Good one Dom.

There is no other way that you will see any kind of positive changes at all.

Hi Ann, well, I can understand where you are coming from about OM. You were vulnerable for the taking, so to speak, and we know without anyone reminding us that it still was wrong. The thing here is that if it had not been that OM--and even though you said you would not go back to that particular OM......there are a lot of OM out there in the world, and we don't have to go far to find them. You see, I know how the OM can say all the right things to make you feel beautiful and sexy and anything else that you may be looking for. In your case, you needed to feel loved and care for.....in my case, I needed to feel that I had not lost my youthful appearance (which is a joke) and that I was still desirable. That is what the OM fed my ego by telling me how "hot" I was, etc. But, I also made him out to be much more than he probably was, b/c I doubt any man could have been as great as I had him in my mind. He was in the "back" of my mind all the time for a very long time. That is what stood between me and my MR. At first, I could not seem to shake the need for contacting OM. Then, when I finally got past the no contact part.....the grieving process took over and that is when I resorted to comforting myself with the fantasizing. That was no good at all b/c it kept him alive and real in my mind.

I suppose I am just trying to tell you that I understand, sweetie, how easy it is to want to leave a bad situation. I wanted my OM to "recue" me from a unhappy MR. I think before OM came along, I had started going through some type of personl crises (MLC or something like it) and so that made me vulnerable for the taking. I've probably told you all this before....sorry.

You have a lot on you with the babies. Having an immature H is like having another child to raise and that certainly is not what you need. We women have to be very careful that we do not fall into a mode of "mothering" our H's. It is easy to do when that is what you are use to doing with your children and he is acting like another child. But, refuse to treat him like he is your child. Don't talk to him or nag him......don't repeat yourself, or "remind him".....in other words, like you might do with your own children. Tell him what you expect of him as a man, husband, and father. I've learned from men here on the board that they actually have to be told item by item what we want them to do! We can never assume that they should already know without being told (like we do...lol). It seems to me that he needs to have some type of consequences to his immature behavior, when he doesn't choose to act like a responsible H and parent. Listen to what some others have suggested. I'm sure he won't like any of it--b/c he has been comfortable acting like a teenager instead of a grown person. Who wouldn't like to just go off into their room and ignore all the work that has to be done and everything to do with the children? So, don't mother him......but try to allow him to learn and grow up as a result of his own decisions. Like a child, they need to find out (sometimes the hard way) what has the better outcome of their decisions. So, you need a plan....lol.

You would have to be strong to pull this off, but if you can keep your cool and not show any emotion at all to his immaturity when he fails to respond like he should.....and have a plan of reaction to his lack of "action", and very calmly allow certain things to happen due to his neglect. Does that make sense?

I think he knows (he must know!) that he is pushing your buttons by this behavior. So, if you've talked to him about this connected with turning to OM.....why does he continue to do it? Is he testing you? It is a poor test, if that is it. But, I don't think it is a test. He may be depressed and needs to get meds......I don't know....just throwing things out in the wind here. I think I remember you saying something about it being hard for him to forgive or trust. Even though my H told me he forgives me, I think it is still there in his mind and maybe our R will never have the solid trust that it once did. I take full responsibility for that! However, he never comes to stand behind me when I'm on the computer or I don't feel that he sets "traps" to catch me at something when I'm on the computer, like he did when he first found out about OM. However, he may still have a way of knowing what all I have been doing on the computer....I don't know.

If your H has not fully forgiven you......that is one of the basic problems right there. He is kind of acting like a teenager in anger to what has happened. I hope for both of your sakes that he can find forgiveness and peace, or it will eat him up alive and there won't be much hope for a happy M. If the thing with OM has been discussed, then I don't think I would bring it up again. If it is "out there", so to speak.....then what point is there to keep pouring salt in the wound? Other areas can be discussed without it always going back to the time with OM. Unless, he can't let go......then you will know for sure that is the ground laid for his behavior.

You will have to refresh my mind how long it has been since OM and the when you and H started trying to make the M work. I try to think if it takes us a long time to get through all the emotional stuff concerning our OM, then the H's probably has their own things to deal with. Would make sense that they would, don't you agree?

Well, I am rambling, so I'll stop for now. Take care.

Sandi

Fb2 -

I'm working on reading through her sitch, there is a lot there and i do have to work a little during the day... $\:\)$

I'm really trying not to do more of the same. I feel like i have changed my attitude and behavior and I'm working on more.

Hi Ann, OK I'm going to change. I'll be tough and to the point, here goes ...

Originally Posted By: ann25

I'm working on reading through her sitch, there is a lot there and i do have to work a little during the day... $\:\)$

Originally Posted By: ann25

I'm really trying not to do more of the same. I feel like i have changed my attitude and behavior and I'm working on more.

Precise examples of YOUR excuses and more of the same. I've seen this pattern all along. You are in effect enabling his behavior.

Originally Posted By: DomR

Stop accepting excuses from YOURSELF.

You can only guarantee changing YOU. Your only hope for success is to change YOU, first! Actually do it now, no "trying". Then MAYBE he'll change over time (months to years).

Hi Ann

I hope you are having a nice day. Let Christ lead you.

Last night (at about 10:30), i told my H that from now on until we can adjust her sleep schedule (which involves him not just sleep all day in her swing), i'm sleeping when the baby sleeps in the evening after my D's go to bed. I'm too exhausted and it's not safe or healthy. He was mad and tried to make me feel bad about the boxes that need to be unpacked and stuff. how hard it is to chase watch the girls without the house being done. i told him that i'm sorry, but i need some sleep and i don't get any at night, so i need it earlier. I told him exactly how much i've had over the last week (came to about 12 hours.) I also told him that it was his decision to want to watch the girls and if he can't handle it, we could make other arrangements. then i went to sleep until 12 am, when baby woke up and fed her. i helped unpack some then. he didn't talk to me after that, but that's ok.

ok - so this got long and will probably just sound like more excuses as to why my M isn't getting better, but here it goes anyways...

Originally Posted By: fb2

Hi Ann, OK I'm going to change. I'll be tough and to the point, here goes ...

Originally Posted By: ann25

I'm working on reading through her sitch, there is a lot there and i do have to work a little during the day... $\:\)$

Originally Posted By: ann25

I'm really trying not to do more of the same. I feel like i have changed my attitude and behavior and I'm working on more.

Precise examples of YOUR excuses and more of the same. I've seen this pattern all along. You are in effect enabling his behavior.

Here is a problem that i seem to have with a lot of people, my H included... it seems as though putting in effort and doing the best i can is never really good enough. My H wanted a D... Why? Cause i couldn't guarantee an immediate change and my best effort and vow to work on it wasn't enough. So now here i am, saying that i'm doing my best to read through someone else's thread (heaven forbid i have to work at my job) and i'm making excuses. It was meant to be a light hearted comment, not an excuse, but at some point, there are just reasons for things and not everything is an excuse.

Sometimes i just don't have time for everything. Call it an excuse or whatever. I work full time (1 hr commute each way and 8.5 hours at work). I am a full time student in college (about 1-2 hours per day, more on the weekends). I average about 12 hours a day doing that. Then i have 3 daughters that need me. I cook dinner when i get home each night. I do laundry and clean. Every once in a while i try to squeeze in a couple hours of sleep. Could i easily just sit back and, in essence, go on strike... YES Could i tell him he needs to do it and then wait until there are no clean clothes and no food to eat. YES Would you have me live in a dirty home, not worry about what my kids eat and sit back and expect him to grow up... if you were me, what would you do? If you were my H, what would make you wake up and say "oh wow, i have a wife and 3 beautiful little girls, i better grow up"

Quote:

Originally Posted By: DomR

Stop accepting excuses from YOURSELF.

You can only guarantee changing YOU. Your only hope for success is to change YOU, first! Actually do it now, no "trying". Then MAYBE he'll change over time (months to years).

I have changed alot since i first came here. I'm sorry if you can't see that. I stand up for myself on a regular basis, yeah, sometimes i don't, but we all backslide. I've yet to meet anyone perfect at this. Everything that went wrong in my M can be traced directly back to me letting him get away with stuff, so yeah, i have to make a lot of changes and i am making them, i am a work in progress and i'm getting stronger. I am by nature a push over. I've always let people walk all over me. I've always been the nice one. I'm a people pleaser and i hate that people could not like me for any reason. Since i came here all that hasn't changed completely, but i have gotten stronger. I can't control what my husband does or says (i don't try anymore), but i can control how i respond to it. When he yells and screams and tries to start fights with me, i won't yell back or even talk to him until he calms down. When he says something disrespectful, i tell him. When he gets critical about things being done well enough, i tell him that he can help or deal with it like it is. Outside of that, i've hired someone to help me with my house every other week. I've been seeing a MC, alone and against my H's request. I've been trying to take more time for myself, when i can. I'm sure there is other stuff, but i can't really think right now.

Advice i've gotten has gone from don't expect anything to expect more of him. Don't treat him like a child, but tell him he can't take naps, shouldn't play video games. Reassure him, but tell him that we can't keep talking about OM. don't ask him about seeing a MC or IC, but he needs to see one. probably, i'm just not understanding, but it gets a little confusing.

what kills me in all this is that H is the one who came to me and said he didn't want the D and that he really wanted to work on our M. he wanted to make me fall in love with him. that was almost a year ago. he's not doing such a good job...

fb2 - i didn't mean to vent that all towards you, but it just kinda got dumped on your response. I don't want you or anyone else to think that i don't appreciate the help and the 2x4s that i need. I do. I TRY (yes try) to follow the advice to the best of my ability. Sometimes it goes well and other times it does not.

yesterday I read what everyone wrote and i started to reply, but i wanted to think about it first. I was really overwhelmed and what came out seemed more like me whining than anything else. Then i get online today, after feeling like i had done pretty well last night and here i am with "more of the same" and "enabling him" and "me making excuses"... and i decided that i did need to say something, if for no other reason than to vent.

A few questions for anyone whose actually gotten this far:

1. what's the difference between an excuse and a reason that something happens or is done.
2. How do i expect him to grow up from him without nagging and acting like his mother?
3. How do i expect anything of him and then not be dissappointed when it doesn't happen?

it's funny that I feel like i have to stand up for myself here too.

take care $\:\)$ ann

Dear Ann,

"1. what's the difference between an excuse and a reason that something happens or is done.
2. How do i expect him to grow up from him without nagging and acting like his mother?
3. How do i expect anything of him and then not be dissappointed when it doesn't happen?"

I really think you are quite capable of answering your questions. I'm no expert on this so take what I way with a pinch of salt. I could be wrong but I thought you may want to read this article. I saw myself in it http://www.coping.org/relations/martyr.htm

And remember we all love you.

Hi Sandi,

Thanks for the post. I think that i felt a lot of the same things you felt too. My H went from acting like he loved and wanted me to wanting a D and just using me for sex when it was convenient to him. OM made me feel better about myself. He told me everything i wanted to hear. when i think back, it kinda reminds me of those telephone psychics, where you tell them just enough for them to figure out what you need to hear and believe them... $\:\)$ you are right, i don't need anyone to make me feel worse about it than i've already made myself feel.

there are lots of OM's out there. Funny how that doesn't bother some men. I know for me, unless i end up divorced, there will never be another man. I know why i went there and i will make sure it doesn't happen again. I don'think H believes that, but i know it, so it's ok.

I do need a plan. Maybe that's why i'm having such a hard time. I feel like i keep getting mixed advice and maybe it's just that i'm not understanding. What kind of consequences should he have? What kind of consequences do you give a grown man when he doesn't want to act like a dad or wake up from a nap?

If he doesn't know that these things upset me then he is more thick headed than i ever thought. i tell him when he says something disrespectful or mean. he may be depressed, i've thought that, but he won't go to the Dr. or see anyone, so he'll just deal with it in his own way i guess. I've made him Dr. appts, but he says he forgets or gets to busy.

He hasn't forgiven me. it's been almost 11 months since he found out and i ended it. He can't let go of it. I'm sure it takes a lot of time and I don't expect him to have forgiven me yet, but that doesn't mean he can act however he wants. OM has way more of a hold on H than he ever did on me. H now dislikes anything that has to do with the military. Didn't even watch one of his favorite shows recently because it was a support the troops episode. He also makes a lot of derogitory comments about hispanic people. Nothing to them and he doesn't actually treat them any differently, but OM was hispanic, so he makes comments a lot. i told him he needs to stop that in front of his Ds cause they'll pick up on it. He was mad, but has been better about it.

thanks $\:\)$ ann

Originally Posted By: fb2

Hi Ann, OK I'm going to change. I'll be tough and to the point, here goes ...

fb2,

I had just written a long email to Ann, that was already "tough and to the point".
She didnt need more of the same. That just made her feel set-upon, and overwhelmed.
Plus, it diluted the points I was trying to make to Ann, to where I think she has now missed them.

How about easing up for a while?
You suggested that Ann talk to forrestgump, for more 2x4-age.
But I dont think that's what she needs.
if once doesnt get someone's attention, then more, is just going to be bruising, not helpful.

Originally Posted By: fb2

I think i'm going to regret having written that... $\:$$

I actually can't answer those questions and that is why i asked... I'm trying to ask the people that said i am making excuses because i obviously can't tell the difference.

i don't expect you to be an expert and i'm a little sorry i let your post take all my venting. I don't expect you to know how i feel or exactly what is going on because you don't really know me, so i try not to take stuff too personally. (again with the trying)doesn't always go so well.

The article was pretty much me in a nutshell, except that i have made changes in an effort to make things better and they've gotten better in some areas and worse in others. My only problem with it is that what i read, with where i'm at right now, told me to get out of a bad situation. Unless i leave him, i'm going to be a martyr until it gets better, right.

please don't take anything i said too personally either. We obviously all care about each other or we wouldn't be here trying to help. $\:$$

thank you!!! $\:\)$ ann

Originally Posted By: Dom R

Originally Posted By: fb2

Hi Ann, OK I'm going to change. I'll be tough and to the point, here goes ...

i agree and that is basically what happened. Luckily, i get over things quickly... $\:\)$ no harm done.

Since i am trying and really do want to see positive changes and don't want to be a martyr... can you help...

I feel like i don't know how to expect him to be a grown up and expect him to be a man if i'm treating him like a child. If i'm telling him what he can and can't do, how is that making him grow up, isn't that just more of the same?

Also, there have been a couple times when i've brought up the fact that he said he'd make an effort to change. He continues with the excuses that i don't want to be accepting. So, how long do i accept his, "i will" and other excuses before I start just doing my own thing. I guess i already kinda am... we haven't had dinner together in a week. The girls and i go into their room and read books and color and stuff, but we don't see him. I go to bed when i'm tired and i don't wait for him... Should i be giving him more time to try or do i just keep going and see if he even notices.

i'm going to reread your other post and respond, just to be sure i don't miss your point, cause i probably did!

Thanks!! $\:\)$ ann

HI Ann,

i'm going to attempt to write a 'short' post to you $;\)$

Great job on standing up to your H, about your need for sleep.

Quote:

I think that's a really interesting point. And you should definately bring it up to him, when the issue comes up about you wanting HIM to change his treatment of you, and him pushing back about him not being able to "do everything right away"

Quote:

if you were me, what would you do? If you were my H, what would make you wake up and say "oh wow, i have a wife and 3 beautiful little girls, i better grow up"

I have told you exactly what I think you need to do, as you $\:\)$

The bottom line is, you cant "make him wake up". And you probably wouldnt want him all grown up, about EVERYTHING... that might get kinda boring $;\)$
You can, however, choose in what areas his irresponsible behaviour, is no longer "ok".
That's not to say you should harp on him about EVERYTHING at once. There needs to be quiet, non-pressure, relaxed times, too.
Still, though, when something important happens... dont just let him get away with it.
(the occasional glass of ice water may help $;\)$ )

Quote:

I can't control what my husband does or says (i don't try anymore), but i can control how i respond to it. When he yells and screams and tries to start fights with me, i won't yell back or even talk to him until he calms down. When he says something disrespectful, i tell him. When he gets critical about things being done well enough, i tell him that he can help or deal with it like it is.

I think this is Great! Just keep doing what you're doing, and be consistent about it $\:\)$

oh well, so much for short, here goes more.. $;\)$

A few questions for anyone whose actually gotten this far:

1. what's the difference between an excuse and a reason that something happens or is done.

I'd say, it's the difference between "cant" and "wont".
An excuse, is pretending a "wont", is a "cant". if you get my meaning.
Even having "a reason", can still be an excuse in that light.

"Oh i cant go shopping today, it's raining".
is really, "I WONT go shopping today, because I dont feel like putting on rain gear, etc..."

2. How do i expect him to grow up from him without nagging and acting like his mother?

tricky. you have to choose your battles. You cant "make him grow up" on the inside. But you can choose what you accept from him as "ok", and choose when you do and dont pick up his slack. Compensating for him, says at some level that his behaviour is ok. Sometimes, you have no other choice. Sometimes, you do have a choice.
You definitely had a choice, with his napping.

3. How do i expect anything of him and then not be dissappointed when it doesn't happen?

Also tricky.
It probably starts with having reasonable expectations.
Also, in some areas, you SHOULD be disappointed. (in the sense of telling him, "I really expected better of you there!", rather than being personally broken up inside about failure)

The "zen" method of beng the active working partner, in an unbalanced marriage, is by attempting to have ZERO expectations, while still occasionally trying positive actions.
It's not quite "expecting to fail", but just deciding ahead of time, that if you/they dont succeed, it's ok.

Then, if it DOES work... you get to feel really happy!
But if it does not work... well, you were ok with that anyway.
What i'm describing, is essentially "detaching" from the hurt of unmet expectations, instead of "giving up".
You "let go" of the expectation, rather than the relationship.

Quote:

OM has way more of a hold on H than he ever did on me. H now dislikes anything that has to do with the military. Didn't even watch one of his favorite shows recently because it was a support the troops episode.

I think you're going to have to just let that run its course.
Accept that he is hurt, and that's the way he feels, and allow him to feel hurt.
It may take a few more years for it to get better.
It will probably take a year, AFTER the point that your marriage is good again, for his hurt in that area, to subside, i'd guess.

Hang in there. You're doing good things.
It takes time.

ok an actual short one this time $;\)$

Originally Posted By: ann25

So, how long do i accept his, "i will" and other excuses before I start just doing my own thing. I guess i already kinda am... we haven't had dinner together in a week. The girls and i go into their room and read books and color and stuff, but we don't see him. I go to bed when i'm tired and i don't wait for him... Should i be giving him more time to try or do i just keep going and see if he even notices.

It sounds like you are doing great, in managing your own frustration level, and "doing what needs to be done".

The only thing you have to watch out for.. and be VERY careful about... is to not drift completely into the "separate lives" trap.
Show him that you would still LIKE him to join you for dinner, sometimes. etc.
If I forget to remind you... you'll have to remember after a month of this... if he hasnt noticed, and isnt making more of an effort to join you... you'll have to try something else, to get him to "engage" with you more.

Put a notice to yourself in some computer calendar or something, maybe? $;\)$

Plus, even from right now, maybe you should make sure that both of you, have fair and equal "chores" to do, for the family?

That might help him not just totally disconnect and hide in his room all day.

Originally Posted By: ann25

Originally Posted By: Dom R

Originally Posted By: fb2

Hi Ann, OK I'm going to change. I'll be tough and to the point, here goes ...

{{{ann}}}

You sound very frustrated, this can all be so draining on ones mind. Some times it makes you feel like your spinning your wheels getting no where can totally empathize. Doesn't help that you are spread pretty thin with work, school, kids and very little sleep. If you don't get sleep you can't process clearly as I'm sure you know, I think that should be a priority before you crash.

I will try and answer your 3 questions:

1. An excuse is something that is said to cover ones tracks and to get them out of trouble for the time.

A reason is somthing that is said to explain why a certain event happened and to be able to accept ones mistake and take responsibility for it.

2. How to get him to grow up...

My thought here is the same as I would do with one of my kids, if something is done wrong then there are consequences for it and they must be enforced in order for growth to take place.

3. I guess the best way to answer your 3rd question, is this way if we 'expect' someone to do something aren't we just setting the situation up to fail? If we don't 'expect' something then there is no true disappointment.

Of course this is just my perception of the questions asked so break it down to what you can get from it.

Be patient with yourself and get some rest...

Brian

i'd like to say i'll keep this short, but i haven't ever kept one short yet, so why try now... hehe

first of all, Thank you!!

When i asked what you would do, i was actually talking to fb2 cause he seems to think that what i've been trying to do is the same old thing... but thanks!! yes, i know what you think i should do... $\:\)$

Quote:

I'd say, it's the difference between "cant" and "wont".
An excuse, is pretending a "wont", is a "cant". if you get my meaning.
Even having "a reason", can still be an excuse in that light.

"Oh i cant go shopping today, it's raining".
is really, "I WONT go shopping today, because I dont feel like putting on rain gear, etc..."

WOW - i make a lot of excuses. For me, i don't consider it an excuse so much as a reason if the other thing takes priority. For instance, when i said i had to get some work done so i couldn't read posts. Yes, i was physically capable, but getting work done is more important. When i went to wake him up, the first time, i had more important things to tend to immediately. I shouldn't have let him keep resting, i should have just gone and done what was urgent and gone back to wake him up rather than letting him sleep...

Quote:

You definitely had a choice, with his napping.

I think this is an area of my confusion. How do i have a choice in letting him nap. If he says, "i'm going to go take a nap" do i say no? or when i go to wake him up and he says he needs more sleep, do i say "no" at that point, aren't i taking mother role and not wife? I'm not arguing the point, just looking to better understand.

Quote:

What i'm describing, is essentially "detaching" from the hurt of unmet expectations, instead of "giving up".
You "let go" of the expectation, rather than the relationship.

I get that. That's kinda already how i look at it. i pretty much expect to fail when i'm asking for things. I think i'm so used to not expecting anything from him, that once i got over the being personally hurt by it (like he did it to hurt me) that i started expecting him to not help/be nice/etc...

Quote:

It will probably take a year, AFTER the point that your marriage is good again, for his hurt in that area, to subside, i'd guess.

like i've always said to him and here, i know it will take time. i know that no amount of my apologizing or wanting it to feel better will help. whenever he wants to talk about it, i do and i reassure him. Occassionally he'll say something mean or hurtful about me and i do stop him there, cause it is in the past, but if he wants to talk about how he's feeling i always let him. Forgiveness i can wait forever for. falling in love i can wait forever for... the only thing that i can't wait forever for is him to change how he treats me and how he acts as a H.

Quote:

Show him that you would still LIKE him to join you for dinner, sometimes. etc

i do. Last night, i asked him if he'd like to take a break from whatever he was doing and come down and have dessert with me and Ds. He asked if i needed him to come and I said no, that i'd just like to spend some time with him. He said he'd really rather finish what he was doing. So i went down and at with the girls and we watched some silly new reality/game show with a bunch of dogs... it would have been nice of him to join us, but we had fun anyways.

Quote:

Plus, even from right now, maybe you should make sure that both of you, have fair and equal "chores" to do, for the family?

That might help him not just totally disconnect and hide in his room all day.

ummmm... that sounds like a nice idea. not sure how to get him to do "his chores" (now i sound like his mom). Right now, we are unpacking, so that will keep him busy. He has lots of electronics and toys that he'll be unpacking. help is help right, i can't be too picky!

last night, i found out that he smacked my D4 in the mouth for yelling at her sister and arguing. Don't get me wrong, this deserves punishment, but that is not something we ever talked about. Spankings and timeouts, taking away priveleges or something like that, but i'm not ok with what he did. The last time i confronted him about how he treated the girls, it backfired. Any ideas on how i should approach this?

it's overwhelming sometimes to say the least... i'm sure alot of people here have just as much going on and feel the same way. the last couple nights i haven't gotten hardly any sleep. i can't fall asleep while she's awake, no matter how tired I am, if she's awake and no one else is awake with her, i can't sleep. (not an excuse, i physically cannot fall asleep) so wednesday night when i fell asleep while i was feeding her (she always falls asleep while she eats) H gave me a hard time about it. I told him that I am tired and i was going to rest while she was eating, since i can't exactly do anything else while i'm feeding her anyways. i didn't have the energy to argue the point then, but i did make sure that he knows i will sleep when i need it, provided D4 and D2 are in bed. he wasn't happy, but i don't care. Sleep is more important than anything else when i have to be driving the next morning.

i think i struggle between the not treating him like a child and treating him like a child thing. I suppose the difference is in the consequence... rather than getting grounded, i'm backing off. I don't yell and scream (physically can't handle it), but i can do less and less that is specifically for him until he starts acting differently.

Thank you for the hugs and advice... much needed and appreciated!! $\:\)$ ann

Originally Posted By: ann25

i can't sleep. (not an excuse, i physically cannot fall asleep) so wednesday night when i fell asleep while i was feeding her (she always falls asleep while she eats) H gave me a hard time about it.

he's being a schmuck, and you should tell him so.

"Hey, SCHMUCK! I'm PHYSICALLY EXHAUSTED!
And ya know what... i WOULDNT be, if YOU helped me out more!!"

Quote:

i think i struggle between the not treating him like a child and treating him like a child thing. I suppose the difference is in the consequence... rather than getting grounded, i'm backing off. I don't yell and scream (physically can't handle it), but i can do less and less that is specifically for him until he starts acting differently.

Yes!
with one thing to add: Men are Dumb. So you need to explicitly TELL him you are doing this, and why.
otherwise, he may not figure it out for himself. Amazing as that may seem $\:D$

Gonna reply to your other post now. maybe short this time.
haha

Gonna attempt short again $\:\)$

For me, i don't consider it an excuse so much as a reason if the other thing takes priority.
Agreed. except when you lie to yourself about priorities.
then it becomes an excuse again.
Avoiding confronting your husband about not helping you do something, and doing it youself, because its "more important to get it done"... is usually an excuse. an avoidance tactic excuse.

In this case, the long-term priority of your husband helping you more, is probably more important than the short term one.

I think this is an area of my confusion. How do i have a choice in letting him nap. If he says, "i'm going to go take a nap" do i say no? or when i go to wake him up and he says he needs more sleep, do i say "no" at that point, aren't i taking mother role and not wife? I'm not arguing the point, just looking to better understand.

There's a fine line between mother and wife. Sometimes, you need to tell your child they have to do something. Sometimes, you need to tell your husband he has to do something.
Ideally, if your H does not act like a child, then you dont talk to him like a child. (but if he does, then do so $;\)$ )

Maybe it helps to keep in mind what is important at the time. The important thing at that time, was not "he's not allowed to take a nap". The important thing is that you needed help, RIGHT THEN.
So, you might have focused on the "get up and help me now", rather than the nap/no nap issue.

Last night, i asked him if he'd like to take a break from whatever he was doing and come down and have dessert with me and Ds. He asked if i needed him to come and I said no, that i'd just like to spend some time with him. He said he'd really rather finish what he was doing.

At some point, I suspect you will have to start putting it in terms of "yes, I need you to come spend time with me" sometimes. And, ya know what... that can be a good thing, actually. A man usually likes to be needed. And appreciated, if he does come down and do what you ask.

ummmm... that sounds like a nice idea. not sure how to get him to do "his chores"

By getting him to fully agree to what chores he will do from now on.
Then.... nag, i'm afraid. And/or start coming up with consequences if he doesnt follow through with his part of things.

no suggestions on the girls/discipline isue, i'm afraid.
(Hmm.. i was ALMOST short $;\)$ )

ok... just one more...

my plan:

1) be consistant in my telling H when he is disrespectful and mean. (already happening)
2)be consistant in showing my appreciation of any effort made
3)start to expect more of him as a H without taking it personally if it doesn't happen.
4)Tell H when i need his help with something. Stop accepting his excuses when he doesn't help.
5)until i start seeing some effort, gradually seperate myself from H, without making him feel unwelcome.

Consequences for not helping/making any changes/treating me better:
1)stop doing things that are solely for his benefit.
a. we will eat when i'm done cooking rather than waiting on dinner til he's ready
b. i will stop doing his laundry, just mine and the girls
c. i will stop getting his stuff ready for him before he leaves to go somewhere.
d. stop making phone calls for him when he just doesn't feel like it, business or otherwise
2)no sex

When he questions why i'm not doing everything for him, i'll tell him that when he's ready to step up and do what he's told me he wants to do, then i'll keep doing things for him.

If, on the other hand, he starts making changes and really seems to be trying, then i'll have more time (if he's helping) and i'll be able to do some nice things that are especially just for him.

if, after about a month or so of this there is still no change in H, i will have to come up with something more drastic, but for now, this is the best i can come up with... i'm going to do my very best to stick with this. i may mess up from time to time, but hopefully this gets some sort of reaction from him.

if anyone has anything else good for my list, i'd love to hear it! $\:\)$

ann

oooo...

nice list...!
but.. i think you need to seriously reconsider the "no sex" one.
maybe modify it to "no more sex when just HE feels like it".
If he works at being nice to you for it, then reward him.

cutting off sex from your husband completely is a veeerrrry dark and dangerous road to go down.
Sex is best as a bonding experience, not a punishment/control tool.
Not to mention, he'll start thinking you're getting it elsewhere.

k this will be short...

i'm going to argue this one point, simply because of the mess and smell

Quote:

In this case, the long-term priority of your husband helping you more, is probably more important than the short term one

yes long term it is more important, on the other hand dealing with D2 before she took off her diaper herself and spread it around the house what the more urgent issue at that moment... $\:\)$

Quote:

The important thing at that time, was not "he's not allowed to take a nap". The important thing is that you needed help, RIGHT THEN.
So, you might have focused on the "get up and help me now", rather than the nap/no nap issue.

this is very helpful... thank you!

Quote:

By getting him to fully agree to what chores he will do from now on.

i have attempted this before. The problem i have is his excuses for everything (which i'm not taking anymore)... i guess if he doesn't want to help, then he just suffers the consequences. i'll make a list of everything this weekend and make him sit with me and divide it up. If he agrees to it, i'll nag him or whatever else will make him actually do it.

Thank you!! have a nice night! $\:\)$ ann

Look - a short post! $\:o$

ok... so i didn't actually mean no sex, just no sex when he's being an ass... $\:\)$

He already thinks i'm getting it elsewhere, i'm not sure when, but i'm not eager to go any further down that path...

so much for just one more...

Hi

I just responded to you on mine.

I hope you are not getting a headache over here. LOL

Hi Ann, Looks like I was a bit too harsh on you. I've been observing and pattern matching for a while so I took a risk. I was half expecting to see some resistance including the 2x4 to me, so I'm not surprised. And you're right I'm not in your shoes, you are taking on a ton and I can only go by what's posted here. I know squat to advise you. I tried though ;). But seriously its good to see you holding up. You seem to have got a boost of positive energy. You and your family, including H are in my thoughts and prayers.

fb2 - Maybe you were, maybe not... doesn't matter, no harm done. I had been having a rough week last week anyways with some issues with my dad and just couldn't take much more. I'm normally a little more durable than that, but i just fell apart!

I appreciate that you cared enough to try! Keep trying... $\:\)$

ann

My gosh... i am sooooo glad last week is over. $\:\)$

Last week i had a fall out with my dad. It's never been a good R, but it's worse now. People really don't know how to take it when i stand up for myself. Well, when my dad had some choice things to say about my life and family, i put him in his place. He didn't take it well and as much as i stood up to him when we spoke, i was pretty much a wreck otherwise. Kinda made me not want to say anything to anyone, especially H. Everytime i've spoken up, ever since i was little, bad things have happened so i just don't.

Sooo, sorry for the craziness that i brought here... and i appreciate all the 2x4s and support and advice and everything!!

Friday night i went home from work with some bumps and bruises (thanks $\:\)$ ), but more importantly a new imporved plan and attitude about this whole thing.

Basically, i decided to give him one chance last night to step up. I got home and said hi to everyone. I started cooking dinner right away cause i had gotten home late. H went upstairs and Ds were playing in their room upstairs. D4 came and told me that D2 needed a new diaper cause she didn't make it in the potty. Potty training is a work in progress, i think i'm more ready than she is... anyways... I asked her to tell her daddy and he would take care of it. D4 came back a few minutes later and said that daddy said a bad word and told her to tell me. I went upstairs and told H that he could either change her or go down and cook while i do it, but that he needed to help cause i couldn't do everything. He said he didn't know what i was making, so i told him that the diapers and wipes were in the cupboard and to make sure to use her cream (D2 has super sensitive skin). Then i went back down stairs and finished dinner. Somehow, D2 got changed... $\:\)$

So, i've decided my problem is that i'm always asking him to do things. if i ask, i'm giving him a choice to help me or not. So i just started telling him. Friday night, he was being an a$$, rude and mean and stuff. I told him if he wanted to have that kind of attitude, that was fine, but i wasn't going to deal with it, so he could unpack by himself. And then i let him. He didn't get much done, but i don't really care. It was him that wanted it done so badly...

Saturday was better, spent the day at the old house finishing packing. day went pretty smoothly. H had a temper towards the end of the day and started yelling at the girls. I told him he needed to consider that as much as he didn't want to be there, that it was even worse for them cause they kept getting shuffled around the house and didn't have much to do. he needed to be nicer to everyone. he calmed down a little.

Saturday night, we were exhausted. Laying in bed, he made some joke about how we never have sex... First i reminded him that it had only been 2 days, second i told him that if he hadn't been such a jerk the night before that he might have had a better shot and that the last thing i want to do is be intimate with someone that is going to treat me like he did. He didn't say much.

Sunday, cleaning the old house cause we had people come in to look at it that night. I have a set of shelves in my house that held some keepsakes from our wedding: ring bearer pillow, cake topper, unity candle, etc... I was wrapping up a vase that we used at the wedding and H said that he was surprised that i even wanted to keep it. (kinda jokingly) I asked him why i wouldn't and he said that why would i want to keep something that reminded me of that day. he said that i wasn't even happy. I told him that wasn't true and that his little joke wasn't very funny. He said it is true, you obviously haven't been too happy about it. (at this point he's sounding somewhat sarcastic and a little like he was trying to make me feel bad) so i asked him why he was doing that? I asked him why he wanted to ruin a perfectly good day by talking like that. H just shrugged and didn't talk to me for a little while. Later he said, well, i hope you know i was happy that day. I told him i was happy then too. He got over it, i guess and we finished.

H was determined to stack all our boxes last night before bed, so i got started and he was still laying down, so i told him he needed to get up and help because this was his idea anyways. He said he was sore. I told him i was too, but whining wasn't going to get the boxes moved and he needed to get up. He did and helped. He went to bed a little grumpy, but he'll get over it. $\:\)$

There were a couple times over the weekend he asked why i was mad or why i wasn't being nicer and i just told him it's not that i'm not being nice, it's just that i need help and that i can't just keep doing everything myself.

Never got around to making a chore list, but i'll try this week.

Overall, i feel good about the weekend. I think it went ok. Not perfect, but ok! $\:\)$

ann

ok... so I have a problem and could use some help/advice.

as you know, OM was an online thing...

When H found out, i delete my email (no notice to OM) and changed my cell phone number. I have since changed jobs and moved...
well, i just had a message on my work phone from OM. $\:o$ I was at lunch. Luckily it said he was just looking for an old friend and wasn't sure if he'd contacted the right person and if not, he was sorry... blah blah blah... My voicemail is automated, first name only, so there is nothing to say it was me specifically.

Anyways, not sure how he got my number or why, but it's a little weird.

In my gut, i say don't tell H, pretend it never happened cause saying something will do more harm than good. Part of me says, be honest. I fear that H will really freak out if i do. I'm thinking OM will assume he got the wrong number and never call again... wishful thinking?

HELP...

ann

Originally Posted By: ann25

D4 came and told me that D2 needed a new diaper cause she didn't make it in the potty. [...] I asked her to tell her daddy and he would take care of it. D4 came back a few minutes later and said that daddy said a bad word and told her to tell me. I went upstairs and told H that he could either change her or go down and cook while i do it, but that he needed to help cause i couldn't do everything. He said he didn't know what i was making, so i told him that the diapers and wipes were in the cupboard and to make sure to use her cream (D2 has super sensitive skin). Then i went back down stairs and finished dinner. Somehow, D2 got changed... $\:\)$

WOOHOOO!!!! YOu've got it!!!

and.. see how well he responded to it?

ooo.. aah.. i'm feeling a great big "I told you so" moment... must.. resist... oops.. too late $;\)$

Ya see? The biggest obstacle for you to have a better marriage, and relationship with your husband... was simply for you to stand up and TELL him(firmly) what you needed from him!

I think that if you just keep on doing exactly what you did today, you are going to be feeling like one happily married woman in a month or two.

Keep it up! Red-flag what happened today in a notebook or something, and come back to it, any time you feel discouraged in the future $\:\)$

Originally Posted By: ann25

When H found out, i delete my email (no notice to OM) and changed my cell phone number. I have since changed jobs and moved...
well, i just had a message on my work phone from OM. $\:o$ I was at lunch. Luckily it said he was just looking for an old friend and wasn't sure if he'd contacted the right person and if not, he was sorry... blah blah blah...

....
In my gut, i say don't tell H, pretend it never happened cause saying something will do more harm than good. Part of me says, be honest. I fear that H will really freak out if i do. I'm thinking OM will assume he got the wrong number and never call again... wishful thinking?

Oh wow... that's tough. It's... odd/surprising/frustrating.. that whenever we seem to have overcome one challege in our marriage... another challenge or temptation somehow falls in our laps right then. (I got a few today. I reaaaally didnt need temptation today. sigh.)

I think that you need to face this.
Here's what *i* would suggest.

Take it to your husband. Today.
Tell him that OM somehow found your work number. Tell him that you really never want to talk to OM again. You would like it if you would protect you from him, and ask him to tell OM to leave you alone. Or if he prefered, that you would call him back, with your H listening, and tell him to never talk to you again.
Be prepared to play back the voicemail to your H. He may, or may not, want to hear it. If he does, it should help him that you are not hiding anything from him.

If you dont deal with this... it will only get worse. the OM may track you down in other areas of your life. then not only will you have to deal with that, but you'll have to deal with why you didnt tell your H about the FIRST time he contacted you.

Yes, your H WILL be shaken by this. a lot.
be prepared to "make nice" with him, and reassure him Any Way You Can.
(every way you can? $\:\)$ )
Expect that it may take a week for him to get this out of his mind. Maybe less, if you "help" him.

ugh. i'm going to try NOT to rant/vent about .....
ugh.

Originally Posted By: ann25

Hi Ann, if it were me, I would not tell H. You didn't do anything wrong. I would ignore OM, & he will go away.

I'm just reading your thread now, but wanted to answer this promptly.

Take care.

Ann, I know the men will not understand where we WAW's or almost WAW's that had an on line EA are coming from when this is said. I agree with smartcookie. Due to the immaturity of your H and as rocky as things are right now......I am afraid that it would add gas to the fire. When H's don't behave as though they have truly forgiven the W, then it is my belief that they will jump on the idea that you did something to encourage the OM. Then he will use that as an excuse to want a D.

I know that a lot of LBS, especially, will jump on this with both feet and say that we are telling you to lie to your H, etc. That is not where I'm coming from and I don't think SC is either. What would worry me is how are people able to get a cell number???

I remember one of the people that helped me the most when I first came on board, and at that time was still contacting my OM, told me that after I stopped contact that he may try it again later after he had gone through his other sources of women on line. She made me realize that I was his drug of choice and when he couldn't find it anywhere else, he would come back to see if I was interested. I did not want to believe her b/c I was so convinced my OM was different. (Yeah, right!)

So, it sounds to me that this is what has happened in your case. I agree that if you totally ignore it, that he will give up. I know you won't respond to OM, and he will know that you aren't interested anymore......and I think you are having too many problems with your H for him to handle this right now. Sorry if others think this is beging deceptive.........and if the MR was as strong as it needs to be to handle this, then I would say, yes go to H and tell him. But, he seems to be looking for an excuse to D you.

If the OM calls you back or contacts you at your place of work....then you may have no choice but to go to your H and tell him that OM is pursuing you and you had nothing to do with it. I don't know how far this OM would push it. If he is the "stalker" type, then I would not allow him any more room after this first attempt to reach you.

Does anyone know how one gets a cell phone number? I thought you had to give it out. That is scary.

Just a word to you any men that have been giving Ann a hard time. I know this is your way of trying to "help" her, but some of you gave me the same hard time, and I can tell you that you need to back off! She is a very young, hard working mother and wife that has an immature H, and is trying to hold down a job along with raising her kids and doing everything a SAHM would have to do at night. Unless you have gone through that personally, then I suggest you be a little more gentle and supporting with words of encouragement. I know when I was constantly being told that I was acting like a victum and that I was just giving more excuses.......I had had it! I did not want any more contact with the posters that was giving me that daily crap. She doesn't need that. It is easy for you to sit and tell somebody how to do everything you think they shoulc be doing, but you are not walking in her shoes and you do not have the sheer exhaustion that she does. Back off of her if you can't encourage her. And....giving a list of asignments is not encouragement. I will tell you as a women that did the same thing......you may be talking from the POV as a LBS, but you don't know what we are going through either. To tell us that we are not trying hard enough and that we are just giving excuses......that is BS. Just staying in the M with a man that acts like our H's act is hard enough, so get off your high horses. Oh yeah, you feel better when you can put the WW down, don't you? You think you are helping.....well, you aren't. You know why? B/c I found out the hard way that no matter what we WW's do or how hard we try.....you will always find fault with us. We will never be able to do what you think is good enough. I think some want us to pay for what we did for the rest of our lives. I know all LBS on the board are not that way........thank God! But there a some that doesn't know when to let up on a person! Everytime she tries to "explain" or give a "reason"....it's an excuse!

Well, Ann, honey.....I got the same treatment, so don't let it get you down. When you get enough of this stuff, tell anyone that you don't want to post to you to leave you alone. Nobody, but nobody knows how it is for a WW to come here and face the LBS, and for us to try to do what we know is right and to try to make a bad M better while our H's lay on their backsides.

Anyway, Ann, you know I understand and don't let these guys get to punching you out too much before you call in the troops. Some people have all the answers to YOUR M problems, but can't fix their own.

Ann-
I've just read up on your sitch, and i feel bad that some of us LBS are giving you grief. YOu don't deserve it, esp. since my WAW is in the same position....she's working and (as much as it kills me) the kids stay with her overnite.
I admire your courage for finally saying enough. It's a tough boat to be in, esp. when everyone is blaming you for leaving. At least that the experience my W is getting. I'm actually at the point (sometimes anyways) where i love my W even more because she had that courage, and in reality, it'll help both of us to become a better person....and give our M a chance to survive, because its past incarnation wouldn't've.

As for the OM, from a LBH, it's probably better not to tell him that he called your work. I read a book titled "How to save your marriage alone" by Ed Wheat, and in it, it said to the LBH it's ok to just know that it happened, but no details, because us guys get all aggrevated over the details and upset, etc.

just by 2 cents.

stay strong..

Originally Posted By: Neilh23

I read a book titled "How to save your marriage alone" by Ed Wheat

Hey Neil, How did you like that book? A friend of mine has been recommending that I get a copy of it.

Hey Everyone...

Dom - Yes, you told me so...

thanks! On the other hand, apparently last night i was just being a b**** and i needed to stop telling him what to do. I told him that if he was doing the stuff on his own or even when i just asked that it wouldn't come to that. He didn't want to talk to me much last night. Another joke about not getting any (sunday was not that long ago... really now) and i went to bed.

On OM thing - i'll see if anyone else agrees with you, but I don't think i'm going to tell him. I already deleted the message - Gut reaction. As it is now, i can't leave the house without him wondering what i'm doing. my biggest concern is that he'll think i've been talking to OM this whole time and that I'm telling him cause i'm afraid i'll get caught. There was one time when a guy was flirting with me while we were out and walked away as H walked up. I told H and said that i was glad he was back cause that guy was bothering me. He got all upset and said he was "sorry" he interrupted us, maybe i'd like to go talk to him... He made comments about catching us... It took me about 2 weeks to get him to stop making comments about me wanting to go back and talk to that guy. that was before the EA... i can't even imagine now...

SC - Thanks for stopping by. I am amazed by you. Everything you've been through is rough, but not only that, but you are fixing your M. I do think that OM will go away if i don't contact him. I look forward to more from you... from the question on your thread... I had my baby a couple months ago! $\:\)$

Sandi - i absolutely adore you... i know that you know what i'm feeling and I was actually expecting what i got partially because of your thread. I remember when you were just done with everyone saying that you weren't doing enough. It's hard to think that he's not doing anything and here we are, in trouble for not doing enough... I can normally take a lot and have a pretty thick skin, but it was just a really rough week.
He called my work number, not my cell phone although i do think that there is a way to find people's cell numbers if you try hard enough.
I agree that OM probably looked around for other people and then figured he'd give me a shot again. He probably called my old job and asked if they knew where i went to get this number. It's been almost a year since i've talked to him. If he really wanted me for me, he could have found me before now. I think he'll go away. If he tries to contact me again, i will probably take Dom's advice, but as it stands now, i think i'll just let it go. I actually forgot about it last night. $\:\)$
I do know that from time to time, i'll need a 2x4, i'd just prefer not to have the whole forest fall on me. Thank you!

Neil - Hi $\:\)$ I appreciate the encouragement. It's funny, cause before my EA, i was the LBS. I told my H ILYBNILWY, but that i wanted to fix it and he said that i had to gaurantee him that we'd be ok or he wanted a D, so i know how that part feels too. He just wanted to walk away. I honestly think he was just looking for a reason. I begged and pleaded and cried and then after a couple months i gave up. I met OM and he gave me all the words that i had been missing in my M and filled the void that i felt when my H said he wanted out. I can't imagine how it feels to try to help a WAW when a lot of times it seems like they have lost their minds. I appreciate that i've never been judged and blamed here. That's more than i can say for other aspects of my life.

How is that book? I'm looking to get into a new one! $\:\)$

Hi tomato!!

thanks all!!

Quote:

I told H and said that i was glad he was back cause that guy was bothering me. He got all upset and said he was "sorry" he interrupted us, maybe i'd like to go talk to him... He made comments about catching us... It took me about 2 weeks to get him to stop making comments about me wanting to go back and talk to that guy. that was before the EA... i can't even imagine now...

So, that goes to show my point. You will be blamed for the OM calling you! Your H is not mature enough to protect you. You gave him a chance in the case quoted above.....that was your way of letting him know that you were not encouraging that man to flirt with you....but your H was too stupid to get it! As Forrest Gump would say DAM doesn't get it!! So, no, he would not be happy at all finding out about OM calling. I'm glad you told me it was the work number. I could not imagaine how he would find the cell number.

Well, got to get back to work. Just came in for a bite to eat. Hope you can get some rest tonight, sweetie. I know you need it. I say a special prayer for you.

Love,
Sandi

Originally Posted By: ann25

Hey Everyone...

Dom - Yes, you told me so...

$\:\)$

Sounds like you're doing well, with the "firm but fair" approach.

I think as long as you both keep being firm... AND try to somehow keep it with a feeling of working with a "partner" rather than a "child", that he will settle down after a week or two.
(even though he's ACTING like a child...)

It's tough to keep it out of the "parent/child" level, I know... especially when they act like a child by being pouty

but sounds like you're doing well!
You might want to "reward" him with sex tonight, though.
Not only does it make him feel better about him doing stuff for you over the last few days... but good sex, makes a husband feel more like doing more things for you in the near future.
(especially if you mention during it, that you are feeling happy because he's been helping you.
If you ignore his poor attitude, and focus on the positive there, he might drop the attitude in the future)

So, there's a little insight into handling husbands for you $;\)$

Quote:

It's tough to keep it out of the "parent/child" level, I know... especially when they act like a child by being pouty

I think i'm doing pretty well with the not treating him like a child thing. He's just not used to me telling him what i need him to do. Normally i'm really polite and just ask. As much as i wanted his help, i never expected it. I think that now that i'm leaving out the "will you" or "can you" it's helping me get him to help.

I'm being cautious and not getting my hopes up because there have been times where he has helped for a few weeks before and then he just quits and get frustrated, but so far so good.

Quote:

Not only does it make him feel better about him doing stuff for you over the last few days... but good sex, makes a husband feel more like doing more things for you in the near future.

Now, for me, not much has changed in the attraction/sex department, but i have gotten to the point where i can enjoy the sex itself once we get into it, so it sucks for me too when he's being an a$$ and doesn't get any... $\:\)$

and seriously, it was just last night we didn't, poor baby. Too bad for him that he doesn't get to be a jerk and call names and have an attitude and get sex too.

Here's my thinking on the sex as a reward thing... it's not so much a reward, but it is something he won't get when he's being a jerk and everytime he asks or makes a joke about it, that's exactly what i'll tell him. I probably won't be really good at keeping to that, but hopefully good enough that he'll think about what he says before he says it more often than not if he wants to "get some" hehe... no more "i have a headache" or "am tired"... it's "you were mean and said hurtful things, so i don't feel like being intimate with you right now."

Thanks Dom! $\:\)$ ann

Originally Posted By: sandi2

My initial thought was how am i going to tell H and that was all i can think of. There have been other similar instances of that too, so my thought quickly changed to should I even tell him. If he asked me about it or something i wouldn't lie, but i don't think, at this point, that i need to come right out and say anything.

Quote:

Hope you can get some rest tonight, sweetie. I know you need it. I say a special prayer for you.

me too. Baby actually slept during the night last night for a few hours, so that was nice. I appreciate all the prayers i can get!

thanks sandi! $\:\)$ ann

<<It's tough to keep it out of the "parent/child" level, I know... especially when they act like a child by being pouty

When he pouts, you treat him irrelevant. You act happy, & play with the kids. Don't let him bring you down. Don't be upset that he's pouting. Just do your thing. Then when he's nice again, you treat him like he matters. Think of him as a child, since he's acting like one. Don't reward bad behaviors. If your child was pouting to get his way, would you be nicer, & try to make him happy. Heck no, you say, I understand you're sad, but you're not having a gallon of ice cream for dinner. Same thing with H.

<<Normally i'm really polite and just ask. As much as i wanted his help, i never expected it. I think that now that i'm leaving out the "will you" or "can you" it's helping me get him to help.

I think you should be polite, & yes definitely expect his help. don't enable him. I did it for too long, & it was a HUGE mistake. You know how you said you insulate the kids from him. That was me 10 years ago.

<<I'm being cautious and not getting my hopes up because there have been times where he has helped for a few weeks before and then he just quits and get frustrated, but so far so good.

Forget that. Act AS IF he is changing for good this time.

<< Now, for me, not much has changed in the attraction/sex department, but i have gotten to the point where i can enjoy the sex itself once we get into it, so it sucks for me too when he's being an a$$ and doesn't get any... $\:\)$

Definitely teach him what you like. Make sure he knows exactly what you like.

<<and seriously, it was just last night we didn't, poor baby. Too bad for him that he doesn't get to be a jerk and call names and have an attitude and get sex too.

He called you names ?? What did he call you ?

<<I probably won't be really good at keeping to that, but hopefully good enough that he'll think about what he says before he says it more often than not if he wants to "get some" hehe... no more "i have a headache" or "am tired"... it's "you were mean and said hurtful things, so i don't feel like being intimate with you right now."

You need to be really firm with this. If you waiver, he won't learn. Keep a chart if you need to. If he was mean, you don't let him touch you for 3 days. 2nd time he's mean, make it 7 days. So on, & so on. Be firm. Don't cave in.

Ann sweetie, now's a good time to tell you, you remind me so much of myself a year or so ago, I can't even tell you. It made it hard for me to read page 1 of this thread, because I wanted to go off on your H so bad. I wish I would have stopped enabling my H years ago.

I want to share more with you, but to be honest, it's super late, & I'm finally getting sleepy, so perhaps tomorrow.

Sex.....sex is ONE alternative way that couples can express physical & emotional connection. I think you're right that sex shouldn't be viewed as a reward for good behavior. I think you should have sex, when you want to have sex. I don't know that I'd phrase it as "you won't get "it" when you're being a jerk". I might say, when I feel unappreciated & that you don't want to help me out around here, I just don't want to be connected to you in that way. Then earlier in the evening try saying "this laundry has to be done, & these dishes need to be done, which would you like to do?" if he says neither, say "okay, well, I'm sure by the time I do both of them, I'll be too tired for sex tonight, so don't bother asking me". He'll get the picture real fast.

Remember, women have much more power than they even imagine. You have either forgotten how to use it, or you never learned before you married him.

I had it, & then H was so stubborn & strong about arguing & fighting, that I folded, & became a doormat. Then OM helped me remember how to stand up & be a strong empowered confident woman.

Be specific about what you want. Don't treat him like a child. Treat him like a 50/50 business partner. You are allowed to ask him to help, he's allowed to say no. Just remember, you have all the tools that you need to have him kissing your feet. You just need to find it. I can help you, if you want. $\:\)$

It can be fun even.

Hugs.

I agree with what SC just told you. I do not believe in using sex as a reward/punishment tool (or whatever word would serve better here), but if a H looks at is as "getthing any tonight" I think he is either very crude or he simply wants the sex act and he is not thinking about the intimacy. It would be extrememly hard for me to want to have sex with a man that I have had to play "mother" to all evening......know what I mean? What's attractive about that? If you have to act like a mother....you feel like a mother....and when bedtime comes....you feel as though you would be trying to sleep with your son, and that is a pretty hard thing to overcome. However, a lot of men do have to be taught and I really like smartcookie's illustration. My H used to get upset with me on the when I would work myself down so hard during the day or evening, that I would be too exhausted to ML that night. I would be resentful toward him if he had sat on his behind watching TV or even taking a nap and then feel all ready for some action at bedtime. All I was able to do was "crash". So, there is a lot of mental and emotional feelings going on there for the woman. But I really do believe it is how we approach them and say things to them. Like, "Honey, I really need a man's help to get all this done." Or, "Baby, I really want to feel like spending some special time with you, if all these chores can get done in time. If he sats there like a dunce........then he doesn't understand very much at all. You will have a hard time explaining to him that your body cannot hold out to work all day, come in a do all the house chores, cook, take care of babies, etc.....and then be physcially able to ML. Unless he just wants to do it while you sleep.....lol. I thought it was the generation my H was in that grew up seeing their mothers do all the homemaking stuff while the man came home and his work was finished, but apparently, some parent fell down on their job of teaching your H what his responsibilities are if you are going to have children AND work helping bring home a pay check. Oh.....I could really get off on this subject, but it would turn into some real "male bashing".

Got to get ready for work. Have a good day.

Sandi

Originally Posted By: Tomato

Hey Neil, How did you like that book? A friend of mine has been recommending that I get a copy of it.

it's pretty inspirational. i only read it once, about 4 months ago....it talks alot about loving unconditionally, and puts it in the perspective of the Bible. Personally, i like "hope for the separated" by Gary Chapman, which i need to read again. LOL. I've taken a break from reading those books. I'm going to revisit them later on in a couple of weeks. I want to be in a better place with myself first before reading them again

Originally Posted By: ann25

I'm being cautious and not getting my hopes up because there have been times where he has helped for a few weeks before and then he just quits and get frustrated, but so far so good.

coming from an impatient DAM...that's the most difficult thing to overcome. i don't think i'm as immature as your H appears to be, but it does get difficult when we want things to move along at faster pace, and its not. THat is my biggest problem. While i know that i need to be friends with my W first, i want more, esp. since i know that things will be better when we get back together.

Make sense?

Hi ann...

I think you are doing great with your new direction.
Being firm yet caring seems to be gettin a fire lit
under H. The thing to remember is not to feel bad it
is a 50/50 partnership now true it's never quite that
even sometimes but you get the gist.

Speakin as a DAM, I don't see use sex as a 'reward' at
point, kinda like Pavlov's Theory. When he gets use
to his changes and sticks to them then reevaluate.
SC is right woman definitely have a greater power when it
comes to certain things hehe!!!

You're doing good keep with you path and hopefully I see H
taking off the rose colored glasses...

Brian

SC - Thank you. i agree with everything you said about treating him like a child and asking for help. I apprecaite the examples.

Definitely teach him what you like. Make sure he knows exactly what you like.
My issue with sex isn't so much H knowing what i like, it's that i'm not attracted to him. Physically, he's not the type of guy i've ever been attracted to, but everything else about his personality made up for it. He was funny and sweet and so many other things that i just wanted to be with him. For the 18 months-2 years, sex has been something we just did to meet a physical need. At least for me, there is nothing else there. there was a long period where i couldn't even stand him touching me, so when i say i've gotten to the point where i can at least enjoy it... that's progress. $\:\)$ I think i need my H back to really want him, not just sex.

He called you names ?? What did he call you ? The night before last, specifically, there was no actual name calling, but he does resort to that at times. When i said that i was thinking more in general not specifically that night cause monday night is was more of, why are you being such a b about everthing? Sometimes you are so dumb. stuff like that. I did pretty good at stopping him immediately and telling him that he can't talk to me like that, so he says "oh, sorry", but then he does it again later... I've taken a lot of that, i'm not taking it anymore.

Then earlier in the evening try saying "this laundry has to be done, & these dishes need to be done, which would you like to do?" if he says neither, say "okay, well, I'm sure by the time I do both of them, I'll be too tired for sex tonight, so don't bother asking me". He'll get the picture real fast.
I'm trying to start small, just to get him used to helping at all. He's been doing alot to unpack boxes. Mostly only his electronics and stuff, but he is helping and i appreciate anything i can get. I'm rarely actually too tired at the end of the night. It's more about how he treats me that makes me want/not want to have sex.

Remember, women have much more power than they even imagine. You have either forgotten how to use it, or you never learned before you married him. I think i never learned how to use it. I learned a lot about how to put up with crap from my mom. That's actually what brought me here, i started yelling. My mom yelled. She was always angry, i didn't want to be her. I was looking at a website to find out about getting a divorce and found something about a WAW and thought that was me. It lead me here and I've been here ever since. I grew up thinking that the way my dad treated my mom was just ok. I just want to break that cycle.

You just need to find it. I can help you, if you wantyes, please.

thanks so much!! $\:\)$ ann

Hi sandi, thanks...

but if a H looks at is as "getthing any tonight" I think he is either very crude or he simply wants the sex act and he is not thinking about the intimacy. that's exactly what he says... for example "looks like i'm not getting any tonight" those are the exact words... that's how it's always been. I'm used to it. There has never been a whole lot of intimacy. We don't talk about it or anything.
Unless he just wants to do it while you sleep.....lol. i don't think it much matters to him as he's actually done this.
I thought it was the generation my H was in that grew up seeing their mothers do all the homemaking stuff while the man came home and his work was finished, but apparently, some parent fell down on their job of teaching your H what his responsibilities arei can't blame him for who he became... His childhood was lousy. Both is parents did drugs and his dad drank too. With his dad, they moved all the time and lived in the car from time to time too. His mom had a revolving door of men when he was little. When he turned 16 and ran away to live with his mom, she became the mom she should have been when he was a little boy: doing all his laundry, cooking his dinner, etc... Once we moved in together, i took over. I just wanted to be a good girlfriend/wife like my mom showed me. I worked 2 jobs and did almost everything, but it's different once you have kids, i need help. I have to stop enabling him to stay the same... Anyways, i'm done "making excuses" for him as people say i do...

thanks again!! $\:\)$ ann

I'll probably check out both those books... you know, in my spare time $;\)$

Originally Posted By: ann25
I'm being cautious and not getting my hopes up because there have been times where he has helped for a few weeks before and then he just quits and get frustrated, but so far so good.
Poster: Neilh23
coming from an impatient DAM...that's the most difficult thing to overcome. i don't think i'm as immature as your H appears to be, but it does get difficult when we want things to move along at faster pace, and its not. it's hard for me and probably other women to say, "oh YAY, he's changed" after just a few short weeks when we've seen that before. as SC said, i have to act as if he's changed, so that's what i'm going to do. Too bad your W can't have a talk with SC...

thanks alot! $\:\)$ ann

You're doing good keep with you path and hopefully I see H
taking off the rose colored glasses...

thanks brian, i feel like i'm doing good. I have a hard time standing up for myself in pretty much every aspect of my life and i'm trying to be better about that, but it's hard cause this is really the only place where i've ever seen women stand up for what they need. In my past, everytime i've taken a stand against something, it backfires... It takes a little pep talk on the way home from work each day to keep me doing it, but it's well worth it... Thanks so much!

$\:\)$ ann

just when i think things might be getting better...

yesterday at work, the people i work with got together and got a gift card for my family to say congratulations for the new baby.

I called H and told him and asked if he'd like to get out tonight. that maybe we'd all get out and go to the store. He said that the girls have been really good considering the move and not really having all their stuff unpacked yet, so maybe we could get them a little something. After work, i drove for about 3 hours before i got home. to the bank, pay the old mortgage, pick up our doggie to being her to the new house, then back home. We went out when i got home, picked up some dinner and walked around the store. It was nice.

We got home and H went to go play basketball with some friends (i was really glad to see this as it's been a long time since he's gone out and done something fun with friends). While he was gone (for about an hour) i put the girls to bed, fed the baby and put the girls to bed again... they didn't want to stay in bed last night. I was going to try to do some unpacking, but didn't get to it.

When H got home, he got on the computer and after a few minutes, he asked if i had been on the computer. i told him not yet, but i did have some homework that i needed to do later. He said that someone was one it. I asked him why anyon would use it. He said he didn't think anyone else did. That comment didn't sink in...

later he asked me "are you sure you weren't on here, don't lie to me"
Me - "i'm not lying. I have no reason to, i wasn't on the computer."
H - "well, someone was"
Me - "I'm sure we can find out who in the morning, we can ask them"
H - yeah. (sarcasticly)
later...
H - "are you sure you weren't on here"
Me - "Yes, i'm sure. I was going to get on to do my homework, but i didn't get a chance cause the girls kept getting up and i had to feed the baby"
H - "well, i asked D4 about it and she said you were"
Me - "she was probably just confused because i told her i needed to do my homework and couldn't cause she kept getting out of bed"
H - "No, she said you were on the computer"
Me - "you know how she is, 5 minutes ago may as well be a week ago when she describes it. Everything with her is either yesterday or earlier"
H - "that's fine. It's not like you'd tell me anyways. i guess i'll just wait til you screw me over again"
Me - completely shocked... i didn't know what to say, so i just told him that's not going to happen.

later he asked if i checked his email and i told him yes, while i was at work cause i was waiting on an email from the phone company. he got an email from my best friends H and i the email does the automatic preview thing, so it looked like i had read it. He said that the last time he checked his email that it was new and i said that i must have checked it right after that then.
h - No, it was new.
me - it seems like you are just looking for a way to say i'm lying.
H - i don't have to look for it.
me - i have no reason to lie to you.
H - it's not like you'd tell me anyways.

I got online later to do some homework and i came here and posted to someone and then went to bed...

good news - baby finally slept through the night... bad news - i couldn't...

this morning, H won't answer my phone calls and wouldn't say goodbye.

I don't know what to do... $\:\($

ann

Sigh...

I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

on the one hand, your H has a semi-reason to be concerned.
on the other hand, the timing of this, says that he' might being petty from you asking him to do things, and is looking for a way to feel more "in control" again. ie: put you into an "inferior/penitant" position, to get back at you.

It can be tough to find a balance between showing him that you are trustworthy now... and not letting him just go way overboard about it.

Having been in his place, but where unlike you, my wife had actually resumed messing around behind my back online (but claiming she wasnt doing anything), I can say that it would not be right for you to take the stance of, "Well, i'm NOT DOING ANYTHING, so just TRUST ME!"

He doesnt "know" that you arent doing anything. And if you were a different person, you might actually BE doing something. It's tough for both of you.
It's tough for you, to be accused of this. It's also really, really tough for him to not feel secure about you.

As difficult for it is for you.... you have no idea how horrible it can be from his side. "torture" would be an accurate word.

I'm not sure I have a "good" solution for this to you, but I have suggestions... perhaps you could first of all, do whatever you can to show him that when and how you use the computer is 'safe'.... Then beyond that, maybe accept that, because you cant "prove" that everything you do is safe, you're forcing him to trust you... and so be understanding, within limits

Be understanding that he could be worried, and scared, and flinching, and be reassuring... but dont accept negative treatment of you because of it.

My view is:
Fair reactions from him: Expressions that he doesnt fully trust you, that he's worried, withdrawing from you a bit.

UNfair reactions from him: " I dont trust you, so I'm going to call you nasty names, and/or make you be a personal slave to me, and I'm not going to do anything nice for you back."

It's a really, really tough balance to find. I think that both people have to be willing to put up with some amount of "hurt", to heal.

Condensed advice: Keep reaching out to him. Be nice to him (but still expect him to help). and he should get over this time.
Patience, and Love, are the keys, to healing just about anything. Even full blown affairs.

<<My issue with sex isn't so much H knowing what i like, it's that i'm not attracted to him.

That will come when he's there for you emotionally. Everything about my H turned me off for a long long time. The way he walked, ate, breathed, slurped his tea. LOL I would avoid even brushing against his arm. It's much better now. It's just impossible to be attracted to someone who's hurt you so much. Once you heal, it will be much better.

<< I think i need my H back to really want him, not just sex.

I agree. But, strange as it may sound, you may want to put off the physical needs until he matures emotionally a bit.

<< why are you being such a b about everthing? Sometimes you are so dumb. stuff like that. I did pretty good at stopping him immediately and telling him that he can't talk to me like that, so he says "oh, sorry", but then he does it again later...

when he says sorry, then does it again later, he's not sorry, he's patronizing you. Go to the library & find a book called "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. It will teach you more technique & skill to stop him from doing that. That's uncalled for. I told my H I wouldn't even speak to him until he read the VAR book completely through. He's not a reader, normally, but he finished it in two days.

<<I've taken a lot of that, i'm not taking it anymore.

Good Girl !! You shouldn't.

<<I'm trying to start small, just to get him used to helping at all.

That's great.

<<I'm rarely actually too tired at the end of the night. It's more about how he treats me that makes me want/not want to have sex.

Sweetie, it's not that you're tired, you're teaching him that it's not that he's "helping" you. It's his responsibility, he's the husband & father. He's supposed to be your partner. But you're right to go slow. It's a process.

<<I think i never learned how to use it. I learned a lot about how to put up with crap from my mom. That's actually what brought me here, i started yelling. My mom yelled. She was always angry, i didn't want to be her. I was looking at a website to find out about getting a divorce and found something about a WAW and thought that was me. It lead me here and I've been here ever since. I grew up thinking that the way my dad treated my mom was just ok. I just want to break that cycle.

& you will. This is a great place to grow your self-esteem & worth.

<<yes, please.

okay, just remember, you asked for it. tee hee (teasing)

<<thanks so much!!

it's my pleasure. & as you learn, you teach someone else, okay ? Pay it forward.

Hugs.

so, it's been a long day and while i apprecaite everyone's comments, i don't have the energy or mental capacity to respond right now... we'll save that for tomorrow.

i did want to share this though. A friend just emailed it to me:

Isaiah 26:3-4 (New International Version)

3 You will keep in perfect peace
him whose mind is steadfast,
because he trusts in you.
4 Trust in the LORD forever,
for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

i want a perfect peace, so i just have to keep trusting... $\:\)$

ann

Hi <<Ann>>, One observation I had was that some of the "advice" you've been getting was a bit muddled - what you wanted to hear but slightly off key. I see amazing <<CookieMonster>> has engaged, so hopefully you'll get results much faster now! Tap into Forrest Gump (a.k.a FG) at some point once you're out of the rut and moving along. And yes do be patient with the LORD.