My
First Thread is now locked I feel completely detached right now. The woman I married and loved turned into the Alien W. Only time I see "my real love" is when she is not interacting with me.
I don't know if my DBing is bringing my W any closer. All I know is that it is making me a better person and I am feeling better. I will be OK whichever path W chooses to take. I still have faith and hope that the alien W will slowly disappear and my new W stays married to me. If W chooses to destroy the family, I am sure I am going to feel pain I have never felt before. I dread seeing the pain D will bring to my children.....
Just hang in there! If you really want her to come back then you might have to wait it out and keep up what you're doing at the same time. There are many here who have been here for months even years and as scarey as that prospect might be if she does return it'll be worth the pain, tears and hard work. And you know you will have stood for whats important to you and you kids.
Jen.
Today was good day!
I hit another weight target. My change in diet and exercising (as well as the stress of sitch) is working.
After work I went on 24 mile bike ride. It felt good! I stayed in fat burning mode 95% of time.
After ride, I went to Gym showered and dressed nice.
I made it home 20 minutes before Kids bed time. It was great to see kids!
S9 was reading to W.
S7 Came out with hugs and kisses! We played in TV room for a while. We did the "spiderman" upside down hang (first time!). D5 was with us and then she wanted to do it. GOOD TIMES!
I pleasantly said "Goodnight Mommy" to W. She mumbled something.
I read stories to Kids and snuggled till they fell asleep. Can't beat that feeling!
I am going to read DR again. I need to talk to DB coach soon.
_______________________________________________________
1. What do I really, really, really want?
To be prepared with good responses when W "NEEDS TO TALK"
2. Happiest moment today:
S7/D5 doing the Spiderman Hang! (ALSO: several women returned smiles as I was riding past)
3. Refine my mantra
I can talk to anyone without feeling guilty!
Thanks Jen!
Just hang in there! If you really want her to come back then you might have to wait it out and keep up what you're doing at the same time...And you know you will have stood for whats important to you and you kids.
That's the plan! I am going to swallow every "bitter pill" that alien W gives me. I am not planning on supporting the D. It is her choice, not mine. I will know I did my best to save the M and Family.
I read your first thread. You're doing great with all your 180's and GAL. Keep doing what you're doing - your W will start to notice all the changes.
I have begun excercising regularly again and it does make me feel better. So keep up the good work! My D is what is keeping me going these days, I can't see myself without her so I will do whatever I can to hang on to her andd my W.
Those bitter pills are getting harder and harder to swallow, I know what you mean.
Stay strong.
Nice work R2C and also H4B who's latest post I've just read.
I cannot get over how similar the situations are on here for us all. Certainly the male angle we seem to be the same the then the womens ones do too (IMO).
This is why I need to spend sometime going through the success stories. Still book not due for another 10+ days so gotta use this site for my inspiration and tips till then at lease.
GL
Ready2Change,
You are really inspriing to me. I am trying to detatch. For the first time I am actually serious when I say that. This is just really hard. Just like the book says, your instinct when you feel like you are losing something is to hang onto it. I hope to be in the same emotional spot that you are right now one day in the near future.
Sara
R2C,
Sounds like you are doing very well. I especially like what's going on with the kids. That's great.
Two things: First, about mysterious. The several episodes you listed sound like you are having an affair. If it comes across that way to me, it very easily could to her, especially since that's her mindset at the moment. I've never been a real advocate of fake mystery. If you were actually separated, I'd say, "keep so busy that she can't always get ahold of you", but because you are living in the same house and she sees your comings and goings, any "mysterious" and vague, "I'm going out" or "I'll be late for dinner" sound like cheating, especially since you are apparently so happy at the moment, despite the fact she dropped a bomb. I personally would tone down on the mystery.
The second thing: Are you fitting this GAL, etc, into a favorable time? I know the focus should be on yourself, largely, but you should still consider your wife's feelings. Meaning, I hope you aren't leaving her all the activity that seems to come before and after dinnertime while you are at the gym. If so, it will seem very selfish. You don't want her resenting you because you took off right before or after dinner.
Third thing (sorry, couldn't help myself): I'm sure you are doing this, but just a reminder that you can still be nice. If you haven't asked her any questions about work or her life, it's okay to do so, and you can then show her how well you listen. I just mention this because sometimes a person gets so successful at detaching, and so good at getting a life, that it comes across as a person that is self-centered and couldn't give a rip that the marriage is breaking down. You can, and should, give her attention, but only as much as she's willing to accept. If she rebuffs any attempt to engage her in conversation, then it's not the right time.
Well, good luck.
Hi R2C - It is encouraging to see the baby steps, no?
I talked to SIL today (second time since bomb) about the wedding. I let her know I was planning on attending unless W insists that I do not go. She said she understands if I do not go.
She also pointed out two examples of how I was "insensitive" in the past. I had no idea I even hurt W on these two occations. It is amazing how not dicussing your feelings can build up all the resentment. I know I held back my feelings and W had no idea she hurt me.
Just wondering if you have done anything to show that the 'insensitive' part of you has changed, and indeed, changed for good? It would be counter productive to reference these incidents, but maybe if there is a way to show W that you would approach the situation differently?
W was at store when MIL called. I told her "your mom called". She said "you didn't tell her I was at the bar did you?"
Do you know why this is an issue for W?
Great job, R2C - keep the changes that work.
Slowly
Thank you all for the kind words and support! I'll address the questions in another reply.
Interesting: W was leaving and saying goodby to kids (They all in our bed). I said "Have a good day mommy!" in a very upbeat tone. She said "Ya". She then asked if I planned on being home tonight. I said yes. She then said she had "dinner plans tonight".(I change/W changes...). I said "no problem".
Typical morning after she left. Enjoyed kids. Pancakes.. ect.
I initialed an email conversation to find out when she wanted me home (I offered to meet kids at bus stop) and let her know I was taking kids out for dinner tonight. My email acting up so I then confirmed time with a text message.
Positive: A little dialog with W.
Positive: W thanked me.
I plan on getting home a little earlier than when she wants to leave. If she dressed nice I am going to drop a compliment (180 I have only did this once since bomb, and don't remember the last time I did before the bomb).
I plan on stating this to her tonight before she leaves:
"W, do you have a minute?" (Get her direct attention and most likly direct eye contact).
"Have a wounderful time tonight, and don't worry about rushing home. I have everything covered."
"By the way, that outfit looks really nice on you"
"W, do you have a minute?" (Get her direct attention and most likly direct eye contact).
"Have a wounderful time tonight, and don't worry about rushing home. I have everything covered."
"By the way, that outfit looks really nice on you"
The sentiment is nice...the delivery is too forced. The "do you have a minute" will likely start her already thinking, "here goes another relationship talk", and the fact that you accentuate this whole encounter by formalizing what you want to say, makes it seem unnatural/fakey.
Personally, I'd forgo the "got a minute" and just say, "that outfit looks nice" very casually, and just say, "have fun" as she walks out the door. I've forgotten....is there someone else?
... about mysterious. The several episodes you listed sound like you are having an affair. If it comes across that way to me, it very easily could to her, especially since that's her mindset at the moment. I've never been a real advocate of fake mystery. If you were actually separated, I'd say, "keep so busy that she can't always get ahold of you", but because you are living in the same house and she sees your comings and goings, any "mysterious" and vague, "I'm going out" or "I'll be late for dinner" sound like cheating, especially since you are apparently so happy at the moment, despite the fact she dropped a bomb. I personally would tone down on the mystery...
I think you are right. I will tone down. W has followed my lead with "dinner plans" of her own. The hard part is I am not a mind reader and W is hardly speaking to me.
...but you should still consider your wife's feelings. Meaning, I hope you aren't leaving her all the activity that seems to come before and after dinnertime while you are at the gym. If so, it will seem very selfish. You don't want her resenting you because you took off right before or after dinner.....
This is what got me in this sitch in the first place. (I gave up helping (overtime) with the chores. Everything I tried was "not good enough" and "not appreciated") She is very controlling. 180's -Helping with chores (example: W has not unloaded dishwash since the bomb) I go to gym after W and Kids go to bed at 8.
Third thing (sorry, couldn't help myself): I'm sure you are doing this, but just a reminder that you can still be nice. If you haven't asked her any questions about work or her life, it's okay to do so, and you can then show her how well you listen. I just mention this because sometimes a person gets so successful at detaching, and so good at getting a life, that it comes across as a person that is self-centered and couldn't give a rip that the marriage is breaking down. You can, and should, give her attention, but only as much as she's willing to accept. If she rebuffs any attempt to engage her in conversation, then it's not the right time...
Everytime I ask about anything, It is "OK". No details ect. Timing not right yet.
I asked for opinions on this earlier, but got no resonse, still hoping for some insight:
Instead of asking "how was your day?" would "Tell me about your day" be appropriate (or pursuing)? I think pursuing. The silence is killing me!
Just wondering if you have done anything to show that the 'insensitive' part of you has changed, and indeed, changed for good? It would be counter productive to reference these incidents, but maybe if there is a way to show W that you would approach the situation differently?
Most of my 180's are not self centered. I have been toping of gas on both cars washing when I can etc... (maybe persuing?)
Do you know why this is an issue (BAR) for W?
Maybe W believes her family would disapprove?? just a guess.
..Personally, I'd forgo the "got a minute" and just say, "that outfit looks nice" very casually, and just say, "have fun" as she walks out the door. I've forgotten....is there someone else?
Point taken. Thanks, I'll be more casual.
I am not aware that there is someone else , only fantasy man. She does have some male freinds that could be EA's. I am not going looking! I will take that "bitter pill" when she gives it to me. I am preparing myself in case there is OM and hopefully can remain calm.
Everytime I ask about anything, It is "OK". No details ect. Timing not right yet.
I asked for opinions on this earlier, but got no resonse, still hoping for some insight:
Instead of asking "how was your day?" would "Tell me about your day" be appropriate (or pursuing)? I think pursuing. The silence is killing me!
Tough..."tell me about your day", seems a little pursuing, but "how was your day", has been largely non-productive. How much do you know about what goes on at her work? The people at work? Here's my idea...quit asking daily how work was...but at least be around in case she brings it up. Take that moment to just let her speak and you just provide validation and follow-up questions that will let her continue to speak. Maybe once a week, not only ask, "how was your day?", but if she only answers, "ok", give a follow-up question...."did you get things worked out with the x,y,z project?" or "is so and so still out on maternity leave?" Something that will show you at least have an awareness of her life. If she doesn't open up about work despite a couple questions, then just continue to do it infrequently...maybe seeking you out to talk will be a baby-step you can work towards. This could be the first experiment. Since it's Thursday, maybe wait til next Tuesday or Wednesday to ask again.
Hey R2C,
The saga of your detachment is very encouraging. I’m trying to get to that place myself. It is a fine line on which one has to balance. You seem to me to be doing very well. Just wanted to send you an “ataboy.” Will be watching with interest.
...It is a fine line on which one has to balance...
Here is how I am coping with this. I am trying to start a new relationship with an attractive woman I do not know. I do not want to scare her away. (anyone remember telling a girlfriend "I love you" too soon, what happened?) Same tactics here.
I need to figure out how to make her laugh (I used to).
I am trying to start a new relationship with an attractive woman I do not know.
Very interesting perspective. Do you feel that the prior familiarity helps you or hurts you in that regard? There is also the lingering resentment to overcome. I do, however, like the approach. I suppose it’s all about creating that attraction again. Creating that spark.
...Do you feel that the prior familiarity helps you or hurts you in that regard? There is also the lingering resentment to overcome.
It definately hurts my progress.
... I suppose it's all about creating that attraction again. Creating that spark...
I am not even attempting to get the spark at this point. I am working on communication, followed by respect, then moving into freindship. Hopefully spark follows... It is a very long road ahead....
Positive Sign: Today I have had a fair amount of communication (relatively speaking) with W (Email and TEXTMSG).
She initiated talk about paying off CC dept. Wants to sell my stock to pay off.
Here is my initial response:
I understand that you want to pay the dept off quickly. Im hoping for $XX or $XX. Maybe we look at some other options if you want to pay them off this soon.
I think this was a good response. I show empathy, but gave her my point. It also is getting some dialog between us.
This is not the time to pay off this dept! This will be part of negotiation if we go down her path.
Sounds like a pretty good response to me. I have learned through trial and error that anything you can do to appear confident and in control is a positive. She may be testing you to see if you are going to give in to any old thing she wants. If you can stand up for yourself and your interests and all the while continue to be positive and up-beat then that is a positive.
You strike me as being very realistic and goal oriented about all of this. You’ve got as good a shot as any.
AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! <<<------- ME SCREAMING LOADLY!!!!!
R2C, just wanted to chime in real quick about something.
Quit with the planning. Being nice or respectful to your wife is so much more significant when it is not pre-planned. And trust me, they know when it is pre-planned.
I think you are a wee bit tightly wrapped right now with all of this. You need to relax a bit and get back to the business of being yourself.
This is not a game of strategy, it is your marriage. The attraction that eventually draws your wife back to you needs to be the real you. Otherwise, if she does come back, you will end up letting her down because of her false expectations. You do not want to end up back here because of that.
Be yourself, be a good person, be caring, and lovingly detach yourself from your wife. I know its not easy, but the reward at the end, whether it be restoring your marriage or becoming yourself again are well worth developing the patience.
Ian
Just had to get that out,
OK,
I stopped by our financial planner. Going to ask about borrowing against 401K ect to pay CCs.
He says W was in Tuesday....(I did not know)
I said R not good. He said W said we are getting divorced....
He said W sold our join stock and a check is on the way (news to me!) to pay for her lawyer.
He recommended confronting W.
Well lots of details about tonight, I will hit big ones.
I call her out on the check. I got into R talk.
W still on D path not wavering at all.
W told kids. (somewhat my fault, I asking W questions while kids there)
I call my dad and let him know the sitch (third person I tell).
R talk, I tell wife if we both get lawyers it will be battle, I prefer:
PHASE I "COUNSOLING" 12 Sessions
1) IMPROVES COMMUNICATION
PHASE II "DO IT OURSELVES"
do it ourselves on line at 3stepdivorce.com with out layers. (or use Legal Document Assistant/Paralegal to draw up documents)
1) Inexpensive (~$300)
2) W and I have to talk and work together to solve a big issue.
3) Quickest
4) Best for civil Relation (Next 40 years)
PHASE III "DIVORCE MEDIATION"
If "do it ourselves" fails, we retain a divorce mediator. We should already have some of the foundation laid. Main advantage of mediation is that it keeps US in control of our divorce, and we have someone else help address our differences in a non adversarial process.
PHASE IV : TRADITIONAL DIVORCE LITIGATION (ADVERSARIAL DIVORCE)
($200/hour --> $4000+)
hiring two layers is going to be battle with W is the worst option for future with a good Relationship
I suggested 12 consoling sessions she came back with 2. (Well at least she will go) she called out cost as reason.
W is heading down PHASE III Path. W wants 65/35 split with kids, keep house has her weekends to play ect...
I want to work on marriage, but if D is going down I want it fair with 50/50 time with kids.
S9 - OK but Sad.
S7 - Affected him the most.
D5 - She sad, but "I want to live with MOMMY!"
Hi Ian, Thanks for the input. Tonight was rough. I will respond, but my answers my be different tomorrow.
Quit with the planning. Being nice or respectful to your wife is so much more significant when it is not pre-planned. And trust me, they know when it is pre-planned.
I guess I am trying to learn to be nice and respectful. My W perceived me as a "self center A$$". Looking back now, yes I was. She tried to tell me, but I didn't hear.
I think you are a wee bit tightly wrapped right now with all of this. You need to relax a bit and get back to the business of being yourself.
Pulling my wagon of resentment and being myself got me in this mess.
This is not a game of strategy, it is your marriage. The attraction that eventually draws your wife back to you needs to be the real you. Otherwise, if she does come back, you will end up letting her down because of her false expectations. You do not want to end up back here because of that.
I know, I am not sure who the real me is anymore. I know I have changed with all of this.
Be yourself, be a good person, be caring, and lovingly detach yourself from your wife. I know its not easy, but the reward at the end, whether it be restoring your marriage or becoming yourself again are well worth developing the patience.
I agree. I think I backslid alot tonight.
Lots of thoughts, just trying to get them out:
Kind of crazy: W dropped the "F you" bomb on me tonight. This is only the second time I remember her cursing me.
___________________________
In past,I have felt better after R talk with wife, but next day I get down. I hope I stay up tomorrow.
Crazy how I am supporting my wife on the D path. I hope MC will help save M. Hope W will go to more than 2 sessions.
Hard to walk two paths.
Worried about S7. He immediately started witting notes. I have one (paper airplane with "I AM SAD" written on it in 4 places).
I used the 5 why's (only took 3 to get to a place I could answer a question) with the kids to help get feelings out.
I ask: How do you feel. Response 1: Sad
I ask WHY 1: Response 2: Divorce
I ask Why 2: Response 3: Not spend time w Daddy
I answered and give reassurance that we will still spend time together.
This worked good with all three kids. I don't want the kids to bottle up there feelings, I think this worked good. I think they felt better after the reassurance...
What a night, I'm off to bed.....
R2C,
I'm sorry. I was hoping for better for you, but I've seen this before. I've lived it before. Right now her mind is made up and she's actively finding ways to get a D and working through the details. Accept that...she truly thinks that divorcing you is the best option.
With that firmly in mind, make sure that you are fair to yourself. You don't get a second chance to do this right. You might think, "I can always get more time with the kids later", but once a precedence is set, it's hard to get change. That's why you need to do this as well as possible and work to get the amount of time you want...if it's 50/50, then work towards that.
Also, it's easy for her to drop "F you" bombs and go behind your back to take money because she has nothing to lose. And neither do you...what's she going to do, divorce you again? So, cancel any joint credit cards. Report them stolen if you have to or tell them you lost yours and they'll give you a new number. Don't think that she is incapable of running up credit cards. Talk to her about splitting the checking and savings right now, before she can either spend what's in it, or liquidate it into her own account. Or, you can just take half of money and then tell her you opened your own accounts with 50%. Then you can start depositing your wages in your own account.
I know that sounds too calculating, but it's protecting yourself. It doesn't matter if it upsets her. Should she ever come back, she won't mind that you were the fiscally responsible one.
As sofaraway suggested, just be yourself. Take joy and pride in your ability to overcome this. Don't let her see you crushed by this. Be strong, be happy, be willing to let any insults slide off your back. You have nothing else to lose either...she's going, but you just might make her regret and doubt the decision by letting her see what she's leaving. And make sure you make the most of this time with your kids. Visitation sucks.
I just had my first telephone coaching session. It was extremely helpful.
Yesterday:
I addressed two issues with W. Writing down my feelings has worked several times, so I tried this method again.
First Note:
W, I am writing this letter to share my feelings with you. I am angry that you sold our stock without consulting me. I want to trust you with our joint assets. I need your assurance that we will discuss and reach a consensus when it comes to selling our joint assets. I understand that you felt you had the right to sell the stock. I appreciate you taking the time to understand how I feel. I would like to have a friendly discussion about what we are going to do with the check.
Thank you for understanding - H
She read it an apologized. She offered to split the money. She still wanted to use the money to retain a lawyer.
Then I hand her second note:
W- I am writing this letter to share my feelings with you. I feel embarrassed about the way I expressed my anger yesterday. I feel ashamed that I let my anger escalate to a point that exposed our kids to our situation before we intended. I understand your desire to get the process started. I am afraid you were skipping several key steps in the process that are critical to maintaining a friendly relationship. I understand that you believe hiring a lawyer is the proper action. I want this process to be as painless as possible. Each of us retaining a lawyer will be the most painful. If we need a mediator, I prefer that we both go together to find one. - H
W agreed not to get lawyer! (I believe she was honest).
Last night:
I GAL --> went to a concert. Had a good time. The show was great!
____________________________________________
1. What do I really, really, really want?
W to be happy. Me to be happy.
2. Happiest moment yesterday:
W agreeing not to get lawyer.
3. Refine my mantra
I can be calm with W. I can walk away from bad interactions.
Today:
I let W do her thing with kids early and slept in (old me). Try not to pursue and I was tired. W took boys to Baseball tryouts and I spent several hours with D5. We had good time. Snuggle in bed, went to park and swing, snuggle and watched a movie.
W going to town with all kids today. I asked her a favor -> Rent skis for S9 (S9 and I going tomorrow). She said OK and I gave her money to cover cost.
S7 not behaving/listening. He is more angry after D was brought to his attention. I put my foot down and he got mad! I need to focus on his feelings and validate and address concerns....
Since S9 and I missing church in morning, I asked for him to be home for 5:30 mass. She sounded like that may rush them. She has been the religious one in the R. I been praying a lot and listening more since bomb. I'll go tonight either way...
Time to exercise.
I quick update on today:
Skiing with S9 all day! We had a blast! He asked lots of questions. I was honest as best I could.
I called W when we done. Find out what going on w D5 at MIL. At end of conversation, W slipped with "love you bye". I know it was out of habit.
Tonight:
During the Thursday night R confrontation, W said "I felt like you were going to pull the rug out from under me".
WHAT! Who is pull the rug from under who???? Anyway, I didn't say anything Thursday.
After kids in bed, I ask W what makes you think I would pull the rug out from under you? W said gut feeling and "all the sneaking around". I listened and most of it was the fact I haven't been telling her where I go at night (mostly gym). I pointed out the fact that she had said on multiple occasions that she doesn't care what I am doing. She also said that she "Always" tells me "everything" she is doing. I backslide a little and I got just a little defensive and said "So when I ask about work or other things and get an "OK" for an answer, that is "everything" you did. I left and pleasantly said "Good night" and got a pleasant "good night" back.
I just sent this E-mail to W:
Hi W,
I understand that you do not want me in California with you, so I have made other plans. You can cancel the airline ticket if you haven't already done so.
I am still looking forward to seeing all the pictures of the kids enjoying the trip.
Have a good day!
I asked DB coach about this and he said "Which would be better? Being on the trip with W when she doesn't want you there, or not being on the trip, and having her miss you..."
This made sense to me, even though it first seams backwards...
R2C, understand that what your coach is telling you is that you have to stop imposing your wishes and wants on the situation.
If she wants to go alone you tell her you understand and you do exactly as your coach says, you hope that she misses you. Reality, the kids alone on vacation... the odds are at the very least she will miss her coparent.
As far as your other post, you have to stop having these conversations. Also, do not overwhelm her with these emails. Have you read about validating at all? The simple answer for her when she said she doesnt like that you dont tell her where you are going would have been simply, "I understand how this makes you feel". That's it, no excuses, no putting it back on her, just that you understand.
Let go of the rope dude, the tug of war is a battle that inevitably ends up with one of the two combatants covered in mud. If you drop the rope now you both get to stay clean.
Ian
...The simple answer for her when she said she doesnt like that you dont tell her where you are going would have been simply, "I understand how this makes you feel". That's it, no excuses, no putting it back on her, just that you understand.
Thanks Ian. I know what I should say, but It doesn't comes out as often as it should.
Heck R2C, make sure you dont read me wrong here. No one said this stuff is easy, its hard as hell. They dont call it fighting for your marriage for nothing.......
Keep your chin up man, you are doing great. Me pointing out things in no way means that you are not doing a good job, just means you need to see some of the small things as well.
Ian
...Keep your chin up man, you are doing great. Me pointing out things in no way means that you are not doing a good job, just means you need to see some of the small things as well...
Keep the input coming! It helps my PMA alot. The main reason I am posting is for input, followed by insperation for others that follow...
I'm back up today. I've let W actions bring me down last few days, but doing my best to be upbeat and positive. Still being freindly to W.
W is open to doing 1-2 counsoling sessions. I spoke with Virginia yesterday. I plan on approaching wife to do a 1 day session with Michele.
I had a 1 hour long massage yesterday. (I needed it!) I enjoyed watching and playing with kids last night. S7 was very intertaining.
Interesting: I have become more patient with Kids. I notice W is much less patient with Kids these days. We are reversion roles...
Interesting: I have been more open to kids being in bed with us at night. W is becoming more demanding that they sleep in their beds... another role reversal....
Interesting: W skipped one of her club meeting Monday night. First time. My actions have affected this. She chose not to go. Old Sitch W pretty much demanded to go and I would try convince her not to go..... 180's working
____________________________________________
1. What do I really, really, really want?
To let go of the rope!
2. Happiest moment yesterday:
Watching kids playing trivia game with W.
3. Refine my mantra
I can do 180's with my kids.
Tonight:
I wrote down my thoughts and gave W this note:
W, I understand your desire to keep this process moving forward as quickly as possible. I also understand that you feel multiple counseling sessions would be a waste of money and time. I have identified a counselor willing to do one session with us. I need to do this to move forward. Regardless of the future, I am real certain that I never want to be in this situation again. I need to learn from this experience. The session will include co-parenting dialog to assure the least negative effects on S9,S7, and D5. The session will need to be during the day (M-F). I just need to supply them several different dates that work for us so they can fit us in their schedule.
Thank you for understanding
H
W agreed. W said next week would be good.
W ask Who, I said "Michele".
W said why, I said "highly recommended".
Good night with Kids. Did the normal reading, playing ect.
Also made it to gym tonight. Felt good to work out.
____________________________________________
1. What do I really, really, really want?
Kids to be happy.
2. Happiest moment Today:
Playing game with S7.
3. Refine my mantra
I can listen to W and say "I understand you feel XXXX"
I can say "I feel W is XXXX" vs "W is XXXX"
Wow, you are getting her into a session with Michele - this is major. Well done
Of course, she is now fighting it....
AHHHHHHH....
4/11
W agreed (4/11) to meet with Michele on 4/17. W requested Micheles full name, so I wasn't sure if jernaling was a good idea (search on Micheles name goes right to DB site. Spent evening W kids. We met inlaws and my dad for dinner. D5 to inlaws for night.
4/12
Snowboarding with S9 and S7. Went with friend and his son. Good times!
4/13
Sinus headache. Went to church with family. I also noticed for the first time W not wearing ring (I havn't really been paying attention lately). I just let that roll off without any reaction. It helped alot that I have been reading other posts about this issue before it happened. Did peace handshake with W. W looked suprised, she gave firm grip. (last time I didn't shake her hand. I was still angry at her about stock sale). I spend a few hours with D5. Park swinging and library reading.
W said excuse me a few times when we got within each others space while in kitchen (This is a positivve step!). Went to concert. Had a good time. (I leave in business casual clothing and change at show). Not sure if this is good, but trying to keep the mysterious going. I still preparing for OM if that is happening or not, I don't know.
4/14 W made Spaghetti pie for dinner. otherwise standard night
4/15 W had meeting (W is coach for D5 baseball). Leftovers for diner. I bathed Kids. otherwise standard night
4/16-Picked up chinese for dinner. Went to gym and had a good workout. My dad came up in evening (He spending night and 4-17 With Kids.
4/17--Very long day. Full day with W with Michele.
Yesterday was very long. Woke up at 5Am. Drove for 3 hours (W drove seperate) to get to Michele office. The session was good for me. I am hopefull W learned something (time will tell).
I talked to my Mom about my Sitch. Found out my grandmother not doing good, most likely moving into assisted living. I need to go see her soon... My Moms husband may need heart surgery...
I spent about 5 hours at there house talking about our issue...Always sad to here other peoples divorce stories (Empathy is driving me crazy these days!) It felt good to hug my mom.
When I arrived home, all I wanted to do was get some emotional support from W (she was asleep and still an Alien) when I got home..had to cope with the pain alone...Got angry...controlled it..cried...
I did a big 180 for the session yesterday. The day before, I went shoping and bought all new name brand clothing (noth face etc). I wore it to the session. I felt really good in this and it was nice and comfortable. I never spend that kind of money on clothing, but I considered this an important "date". W was at session when I arrived, and she definately checked out the new outfit while avoiding eye contact.
We had 2 breaks during the day, so I went walking around. More new 180's: I initiated several conversations with several strangers. It was a very good feeling. One of the guys has been homeless for 5 years. I sat and talked for awhile. I had some cash, so gave it to him (old habbit that I havn't been doing lately).
I also picked up a few small gifts for the kids (Old me didn't buy to many things for kids, They already have more toys than you can imagine).
Are you saying that you and your W spent an entire day with Michele, as in Michele Weiner-Davis??? WOW
Can you give us any idea what it was like? Was it a counseling session or more like a lecture? Was it just the two of you with Michele or other couples also?
I guess I am just in awe that someone would have that opportunity. I have listened to Michele's CDs and I just think it would be so awesome to actually get to meet her and have the chance to have her talk to both H and W.
Has your W shared her thoughts on the day?
first thread Your first thread was hidden because you requested that it be hidden on 4/11. If you want it hidden, it will also be hidden from you.
Are you saying that you and your W spent an entire day with Michele, as in Michele Weiner-Davis??? WOW
Yes. We had a session from 9-4. This was the first time W or I have been to counseling. W is full speed ahead with D. W didn't want weeks of sessions. She was very reluctant to go, but she did!
Can you give us any idea what it was like?
Michele was wounderful. She listened to our issues as well as covered topics that I have read in her books. She spend some time with us as a couple, as well as some one on one time with each of us. Michele guided W and I through an "Active Listening" dialog. Very usefull. W and I actually came to an agreement on an issue!
Was it a counseling session or more like a lecture?
Counseling session
Was it just the two of you with Michele or other couples also?
Just Me, W, and Michele
I guess I am just in awe that someone would have that opportunity. I have listened to Michele's CDs and I just think it would be so awesome to actually get to meet her and have the chance to have her talk to both H and W.
It was really great to meet her in person. As I watched Michele, I was able see how to she was able to draw out feelings from W (and me). Michele asked how W saw future. It was very different than I invision, but the KEY WAS "I UNDERSTAND HOW W FEELS!". Watching Michele just listen was very enlightening!
Has your W shared her thoughts on the day?
I am praying Michele had a positive effect on W. I haven't seen or spoken wife since session. I should see W tonight.
Can you describe an "active listening dialogue"?
Michele IS soooooooo cooooooool, isn't she????
Thanks for sharing that R2C. I know I would and I am sure almost everyone here would give their right arm to have that experience!
I had no idea that was even an option. I sure hope your wife takes it to heart.
Did you see my second to the last post (four posts above)?
Did you see my second to the last post (four posts above)?
Yes, Thank you for restoring it! I don't think W has any desire to explore this site.
Can you describe an "active listening dialogue"?
Michele IS soooooooo cooooooool, isn't she????
I don't have time now, but will when I have more free time.
Michele is great! To bad I didn't find her 10 years ago!
Sadly, I don't think W heard anything Michele said....
W also turning my words around...
I completely moved out (all my thing on 4/19) of our master bedroom, and now am in one of the smaller rooms.
I had several good conversations with several people today. I also me a woman who's husband left her and D 4 months ago. I may have someone local to relate too.
W is under the impression I agreed to leave the house in the next week. I told her I would start packing as part of agreement to see Michele.
AHHHHHH <<<---- Me screaming again!
Thank God W will be gone for 5 days, then she leaving again with kids for 5 more days. I need a break....
The more I reflect on things, the more I think my W has been "checked out" for several years. I think I have been "Checked out to". I think we both stayed together for the kids.
Was not too hard to detach. I look at my Alien W and do not find her physical attractive. Funny how the mind works.
Yesterday: W got angry when I addressed the issue that we need to make a joint decission about the kids if they are to be "dropped off" at someone's house.
Today Good
W left for 5 day training class for work. Will be nice to have some space.
Kids and I went to church. I was invited to BBQ party and accepted. We stayed at the party for about 7 hours. Kids and I had a good time. I met a lot of nice people. Felt good to have some good conversations with new people.
1. What do I really, really, really want?
Time and Space away from W
2. Happiest moment today:
So many good things today. I pick holding a baby for awhile at the party.
3. Refine my mantra
I can get the kids clothes ready without W
I might as well put these in my thread so I can find them again:
How to Detach website EFT Site
R2C,
What are you going to do in order to acheive what you want?
You've detached, she's detached. Now what?
(W out of town till Thursday. Then Gone Friday-Tuesday with kids. So we get a break from each other.)
I am going to enjoy my kids.
I am going to keep up on the 180s.
I am going to take back control of things I gave up to W.
I am going to meet new people.
I am going to be pleasant around W (and Kids and Inlaws etc).
I am going to give W space to help her reduce negative feelings (this may take a long time)
I am going to respond to wife with "I am sorry you feel that way"
I am going to respond to wife with "I understand you feel that way"
I am going to see several lawyers to help protect myself.
W communicated several times on Thursday. (one was the "be careful" message to me since bomb!) I made W mad Friday by addressing a co-parenting issue. So I backslid. She said "I am not talking to you anymore!"
Current baby step goals:
1) W says goodnight to me first. (This has been hanging for many weeks and I not expecting it for a while due to backslide)
2) Eye contact from W.
3) W initiates conversation with me.
4) Phone call or text from W.
R2C
You are a very dedicated and patient man. After you posts on my thread, I wanted to read your story. I am so impressed with you and the steps you have taken. I have valued your input and now understand more about you.
Keep the faith.
CBK
1. What do I really, really, really want?
To make these statements to W:
"I am sorry you feel that way"
"I understand that you feel that way"
2. Happiest moment today:
Being strong,assertive, but very pleasant with MIL.
3. Refine my mantra
I can initiate conversation with anyone!
Can you describe an "active listening dialogue"?
Michele gave us a copyrighted "rule" document. I am not sure if it is available online or not. HINT!!
To paraphrase: One person says a brief statement. The other person repeats what s/he hears. This continues until the speaker feels the listener understands or speaker wants feed back. Then they reverse roles.
I just learned a good lesson:
Don't think about the past too much right now. Focus on NOW and the future. I saw our engagement picture, so I took a closer look at us. The tears started flowing.
On another note: I have been wearing a "Peace" wrist band for some time now. If I have bad thoughts(or actions) about W I move it to other wrist. I haven't moved it for several days. My mind slipped and I had bad thought tonight, so I moved it.
One more to add to my list:
"I can see how you would see it that way....that must have been hard to feel like that."
Hey Mr. Ready!
A friend of mine and I bought the CD's before the bomb and I was doing EFT, trying to see how it worked.
It's a great way to calm down, slow down, brings a sense of peace. If you buy any CD, do the one that demonstrates how to do it. If I'm on a walk, getting agitated, I'll start tapping away. Sometimes I'll keep trying to refine the statement, tapping one statement after another.
Let me know how it works for you!
The new topic in Newcomers, something like "What newcomers don't want to know' is very helpful.
*hugs*
Wow, you are getting her into a session with Michele - this is major. Well done
This was my last big pull on the rope. She has pulled back, but I have dropped it. I just need to learn to let it lie there now....
R2C,
I read all your sitch today. I am truly impressed with you and your dedication.
The C session with Michele--you never saw anything positive from your wife just after this session?? Was your W engaged with Michele or u during the session or did she just act like she did not want to be there?
You keep hanging in there.
R2C,
I read all your sitch today. I am truly impressed with you and your dedication. The C session with Michele--you never saw anything positive from your wife just after this session?? Was your W engaged with Michele or u during the session or did she just act like she did not want to be there? You keep hanging in there.
Thanks M!
I haven't seen W much. (Only positive I have seen is W ask me for help with her IPOD. I tried, but was unable to help). She told me she is on buisiness trip this past week. She gets back tonight. She then leaves with kids tommorrow for 5 days in California for her sisters wedding.
We shall see how W is when she gets back from Cali.
One of my 180's is to activly meet and talk to new people. Last Sat at S7 baseball practice, I meet one of the moms. Her H left her 4 months ago. I droped off a copy of DR to her yesterday.
I took all 3 kids to MIL house to spend the night.(Today, they leaving for 5 day vacation in CA with W and inlaws.)
I went to concert last night. I had good and engaging conversation with the most attractive lady in the place. A little boost to the ego!
W got back from 5 trip last night. I did not go home. I gave W space.
First two emails from W since she left. One thanking me for "cleaning car". (I had it detailed while she gone).
Other one about dogs. (I text back saying I was taking them with me this weekend and told her to have a good time in CA!)
With W and kids gone for a few days, I am getting my clutter out of the house.
I rented a storage unit and started moving my things that I don't use frequently into it (recommended by several D'ed people).
Some of it is. My Ski and my hunting gear. A lot of old paperwork that needs to be sorted. I keep the important paperwork in the house.
Last week, I moved out of master bedroom into my 10X10 office/storage room. I moved all the stuff that was stored in office into garage. No room in garage, so moved stuff to storage...
Briefly talked to W, on phone. I did a 180 and told her to hake sure the kids get sunscreen (she always tell me this). She replied with "Any other parenting advise", so I rattled off about 3 or more 3 making it funny...
Anyway Goal! Wife gave me a "drawn out" Bye (like she used to) vs the short Bye I have gotten from her for the last10 weeks.
Baby steps!
Family gets back Tuesday night. cant wait to see the kids, and really want to see how W acts around me after being aways from me for 10 days.
Excellent day today!
I talked to lawyer. My state is 50/50 joint custody (in 85% cases). My state is 50/50 property also. So I feel relieved on this if W continues on her path.
I saw the kids for first time in 5 days! Good to see them. The hugs/smiles/stories was very great!
W still distant. I helped bring bags in. (Got a thank you!) W asked for some computer help (I got a thank you for this also!) W also confirmed I was taking S7 to BB practice (and she made good eye contact during this brief discussion, but I take what I can get). Not too bad for about 45 minutes of contact.
180's: W left Jeep at MIL. I traded the SUV for the jeep so W could bring Kids home in SUV. (MIL lives 40 miles away...) I made sure SUV clean and full of gas. (I got a text saying thanks!)
180:I went and purchased bread/milk/eggs/fruit so there is food in house when they arrived home.
I made sure house was very clean before they arrived. I had 5 days to work on it.
I also Talked to SIL. She is very supported and has faith W will turn. But... she has not seen/talked to Alien W.
I would have to say this the best day so far since bomb, but still long way to go....
(I wish I didn't have to walk on eggshells with W....I know she is hurting and is holding in lots of resentment still)
Excellent day today!
I talked to lawyer. My state is 50/50 joint custody (in 85% cases). My state is 50/50 property also. So I feel relieved on this if W continues on her path.
I saw the kids for first time in 5 days! Good to see them. The hugs/smiles/stories was very great!
W still distant. I helped bring bags in. (Got a thank you!) W asked for some computer help (I got a thank you for this also!) W also confirmed I was taking S7 to BB practice (and she made good eye contact during this brief discussion, but I take what I can get). Not too bad for about 45 minutes of contact.
180's: W left Jeep at MIL. I traded the SUV for the jeep so W could bring Kids home in SUV. (MIL lives 40 miles away...) I made sure SUV clean and full of gas. (I got a text saying thanks!)
180:I went and purchased bread/milk/eggs/fruit so there is food in house when they arrived home.
I made sure house was very clean before they arrived. I had 5 days to work on it.
I also Talked to SIL. She is very supported and has faith W will turn. But... she has not seen/talked to Alien W.
I would have to say this the best day so far since bomb, but still long way to go....
(I wish I didn't have to walk on eggshells with W....I know she is hurting and is holding in lots of resentment still)
Good job R2C..sounds like you covered all the bases for their arrival home..continue the good work. Things will get better.
R2C, glad to see you had a good day. One thing I want to point out to you, don't feel you have to walk on eggshells around your W. If you are doing this then your W is seeing it. You must act as if, don't worry about what she is thinking right now. Take control of your own actions and not worry about her actions. This will only get you in a better place.
Great job with all of the 180's you did.
thanks guys!
..don't feel you have to walk on eggshells around your W....
I guess i really ment that I have to be very careful and not throw a shovel full of love on her. Just small teaspoons...
Hard to determine if my actions are teaspoons or shovel fulls...
My next 180 is to just listen and validate W. (old me always argued my point-it always moves me farther from my goal).
Today -> Good day.
Most interaction with W tonight was ok. She still distant. I actually received some longer eye contact. Not much conversation.
(We both now have separate bank accounts)
W has always taken care of all the bills. I have asked to be involved. She is reluctant, but she told me I need to start paying my CC bill. W wants me saving up to "get my own place" etc (from conversation in past). I will go to bank and get some historical records to help understand the cash flow...
A few new 180's. I left voice mail to W that I am bringing home dinner (W cooks most of time). I remembered several household things we needed, so I picked them up at store on way home. I went clothes shopping. Had a new outfit on today when I got home (Yellow Nike shirt, new Nike cap).
I got a haircut today. (only 2 weeks went by, old me waited months)
I helped coach S7 Base Ball team. Had a great time. Focusing on getting all the kids names remembered. Very enjoyable helping the kids learn new skills...
Read Pinocchio to kids tonight. D5 fell asleep in my arms. What a great feeling! S7 has my sarcastic personality (he was entertaining tonight)
Interesting: I was helping S9 with homework, and W actually looked me in the eye and questioned a statement I made about the year I was born. Not sure if I slipped or she heard me wrong. Not sure why she did it. She has mostly ignored me for the past 10 weeks. She is getting softer.
S7 was upset that FIL "forced" him to get a haircut. I calmly stated to W that the parents need to make these type of decisions. W spoke with her dad and let him know we need to make these decisions. We also told S7 that he will be included in making haircut decisions. (The in laws are very involved with the kids and We greatly appreciate their help. I think there are a lot of control issues that are going to be addressed during this difficult time)
R2C - man, you sound great tonight. What a great list! All so positive and great DBing going on. I am soooo jealous right now.
I like what Ping said the other day about walking on egg shells. I quit doing that today, I go where I want, I don't "hover" which she accused me of and am just trying to feel comfortable in my own house again.
You da man - look forward to your day tomorrow.
CBK
WOW! Wife came into my room and asked if I made all the pancakes...
This is a first since the bomb. W hasn't come in to talk to me...
She was sleepy and pleasant...
Wow... R2... that's wonderful!
OK R2C, I just read your whole thread and I am going to give you some advice from what I see.
First off, yesterday was a good day for you, glad to see this.
While reading through your thread the one thing that stands out to me is this: you are doing everything in hopes that your W is going to notice, in other words, you have put forth expectations on your W that you are needing to see. I know you are working hard on detaching, but the one thing that really makes you detach is the "as if" attitude. Do it for yourself, your W will not let you know if she notices these things or not. Over time, I assure you that she will and she will bring this up to you when the time is right. It just appears to me that you are working so hard on your marriage and she can feel it, you don't want that.
As stated earlier, some of your actions appeared like you were having an A, you don't want this either.
You must be able to take ALL expectations off your shoulders, do things for you and the kids, I assure you, everytime you are expecting your W to act or say something, she sees it in you that you did not hear or see what you wanted to. Detach from her, have no expectations, trust me, I know it's easier said than done but I assure you this is where you need to be right now. I have been in your shoes for quite a while and have just now realized how to detach and have no expectations, it makes life much easier on our end in this battle we are facing.
You are doing good with the kids at the ball parks, keep that up, your W will notice these things as I feel my W has noticed these things in me, she has not said anything but I can tell in her demeanor.
You are in for a long road, the sooner you stop the backsliding, lower your expectations to really not even have any and to do these things for yourself, not your W, the better off you will be. Each backslide sets you back with all of the ground you have made up since your last backslide.
I would recommend something else here if it pertains, your W has her huge wall up right now, when this is the case, no one, not even Michelle can bring these walls down. My W went to one MC session with me early on in our sitch, it did no good, looking back now, it was a waste, her walls were so high she was not going to here what anyone had to say. As these walls begin to come down, and they will over time, that is when you make another effort in possibly seeking a 2nd visit to Michelle. That may be viable, may not, but your W must be in a state that she is willing to listen, reading your thread, she has not been in that state. I see my W's walls coming down some, not to the point that I would recommend MC as I am not going to backslide but I can see she is much more at ease around me, we have great conversations, we don't talk R, I can see some glare back in her eye that I have not seen in quite some time and it all started with ME changing.
I will continue to watch your thread and give you advice, hand in there, you can get through this, you just have to make your mind up if you really want to or not and if you do, you must do what will work and stay away from what has not been working. PING
W and I now have seperate bank accounts. It feels good to gain control of my money again.
W has always handeled all the bills.
I have told W I need to understand our bills. She is reluctant to discuss them. I believe she wants to keep paying bills from her account. I believe she wants me to save and move out. I need to address this and find out how to keep paying my part of the bills.
Here is my plan:
I found out how to access our joint account online. I can review the monthly bills to get an idea of the cash flow and monthly bills.
I can either pay some of the bills from my account, or deposit cash into joint.
If I pay some of the bills this gives me some control back.
ANY OTHER IDEAS???
R2C,
You received some excellent advice from Ping.
Try to make changes for yourself not just to draw W back and make changes you know will stick. Also try not to do too many 180's at once otherwise it may seem fake to W and she may think you're making these changes just to get her back.
W and I now have seperate bank accounts. It feels good to gain control of my money again.
W has always handeled all the bills.
I have told W I need to understand our bills. She is reluctant to discuss them. I believe she wants to keep paying bills from her account. I believe she wants me to save and move out. I need to address this and find out how to keep paying my part of the bills.
Here is my plan:
I found out how to access our joint account online. I can review the monthly bills to get an idea of the cash flow and monthly bills.
I can either pay some of the bills from my account, or deposit cash into joint.
If I pay some of the bills this gives me some control back.
ANY OTHER IDEAS???
I just want to warn you of one thing, if your W is paying all of the bills, the grocery's, child care and such, this can come back to bite you. Don't let this happen, she can make it appear that you have not been providing for the family. Just take note of this, it may or may not be the case in your sitch.
Thanks Ping! This first week we don't have a joint account. I am going to discuss this with W very soon.
W and I are going to talk alone this weekend. (180: W and I have not communicated well during our entire R)
I pray to God that I will not pick up the rope!
Good news:
I didn't pick up the rope! No fighting and arguing.
I validated as much as possible and listened.
We talked!
Bad news:
Found out wife has started the D paperwork.
She wants space --> Me out of house.
She wants kids school nights (166 days) and 50/50. --> 75%
Reasons --> no respect over the years and no help.
R2C, glad to see you did not pick the rope back up. Sorry that your W has started the D paperwork, I don't know what is going on this weekend on this board but there seems to be alot of negative things happening in sitch this weekend.
I don't know how it works in your state, but if your W is the one wanting out of the M, make her move, you stay put. I think it is great that she is willing to split the kids time with you, my W is adament that I only get them every other weekend, this will be a hot item in my sitch as we have started the seperation papers.
Keep working for yourself, you never know what may happen tomorrow. Things change on a daily basis with people, anything is possible.
R2C, glad to see you did not pick the rope back up. Sorry that your W has started the D paperwork, I don't know what is going on this weekend on this board but there seems to be alot of negative things happening in sitch this weekend.
I don't know how it works in your state, but if your W is the one wanting out of the M, make her move, you stay put. I think it is great that she is willing to split the kids time with you, my W is adament that I only get them every other weekend, this will be a hot item in my sitch as we have started the seperation papers.
Keep working for yourself, you never know what may happen tomorrow. Things change on a daily basis with people, anything is possible.
Thanks Ping. I saw lawyer last week (protecting myself) and my state is 85% 50/50 with kids. The other 15% are drug families ect.
After validating W today, W in a more friendly mood tonight.
I more worried about my step father, he is going in for quadruple bypass in next few days....
In Connecticut there's actually 'nesting'. The child remains in the family home and the parents alternate their time living there. It takes a lot of juggling, but it's more secure for the kids. (Kind of gives parents an idea how hard it is for the kids to shuttle between homes!)
Stay in the house. My husband wanted to 'live his own life'. One night I slept on the couch. Then I thought about it. I didn't want the marriage to end. I didn't want to leave. I went right up to my.. our room and thought.. this is OURS, not his or mine.. and will be as long as we are married. He chose to go to another bedroom. My feeling was that it was his choice, to remain in the room, leave, come back. It was OUR room.
That thinking helped meto be open, non accusatory and at peace with my actions.
Sending hope and prayers for you, your family and stepdad.
*hugs*
Thanks for the prayers Gypsy!
I did some big 180's today.
I took my ring off and gave it to W. My old marriage is dead. If she wants me back we need a new marriage.
During mass I asked for the church to "pray for my moms and my family" (Never did this before)
I told one couple at church about my sitch. Everyone I talk to "is shocked" and recommends communication, dates, counseling, trial separation etc...
I believe W thinks I am moving out soon. I like the nesting idea. My mom actually mentions her friend has this arrangement.
I will talk to my lawyer tomorrow.
My step father goes for surgery tomorrow morning...
Thanks for the prayers Gypsy!
I did some big 180's today.
I took my ring off and gave it to W. My old marriage is dead. If she wants me back we need a new marriage.
During mass I asked for the church to "pray for my moms and my family" (Never did this before)
I told one couple at church about my sitch. Everyone I talk to "is shocked" and recommends communication, dates, counseling, trial separation etc...
I believe W thinks I am moving out soon. I like the nesting idea. My mom actually mentions her friend has this arrangement.
I will talk to my lawyer tomorrow.
My step father goes for surgery tomorrow morning...
R2C, sounds like you are taking control of your life, great job. I like what you stated about taking the ring off and making it clear that you did not want the old marriage back, you needed a new one, that is great.
I hope your step father has a successful surgery tomorrow, keep us posted.
Ya Ping, I am taking control of my life (and W is giving it to me).
I now have control of my money (W has done bills for years).
W was to go run a marathon today, but stayed with kids so I could go support my mom.
I picked up a thank you card and a plant to let her know that I appreciate her actions (old me didn't do that).