Hi guys,
For those of you who don't know me I will give you a brief recap. Wife of three years left on 28.01.2008 because I had a very short temper and if I'm honest was occasionally verbally abusive. Also a few selfishness issues there due to being somewhat abandoned as a kid which made my wife sometimes feel like she wasn't number 1 in my life. I had been an absolute jerk and she was right to leave.
Since this day I have been working extremely hard to conquer my anger and replace it with love and compassion, and to get rid of this selfish island mentality. I have also been DBing my butt off. The difference between now and then is great. I am only 31 and plan on being alive at least another 60 years, and I want them to be awesome years. I most definitely don't want to hurt someone else that I love in the future. I want the person I love in the future to be the lovely, wonderful girl that I married 3 years ago.
Since the separation she has become involved with OM whom she likes but doesn't "love" (at least not yet). We live in different countries and she has said she still loves me but is anxious about giving us another chance.
Anyway, my wife decided to come to Germany from England 2 days ago so that we could have an indepth chat. I was very pleasant, cordial and did not ask any questions about her new life or OM. Since DBing I have got rid of my hot-headedness and become very composed, measured and unflappable. These changes I will keep permanent no matter what.
I helped her with some tax matters then we went out for coffee. After coffee she brought up OR and I could tell that she was emotional so I kissed her, and she kissed back. Then we played some games of pool and after I beat her I playfully went to shake her hand and she just grabbed me and kissed me very passionately. She told me she "doesn't want to be without me", that it's "inevitable that we'll get back together", that it's "destiny" and that I am very much "one of the family". She expressed alarm at the thought of me having babies with another woman, hates the fact that I'm behaving like a man who is "moving on" rather than "trying to win her back". She is aware that I have been going on dates.
This all sounds good but here is the problem that I have. She went back to England and is still involved with the OM. In fact, she is going to France with him and one of his colleagues for a trip in the next few weeks. She said she "can't reconcile in the next few weeks" because of this trip. She is also very reluctant to end it with him and "let him down" because he has done "everything right" and been "really good to her". Essentially, the problem is that her words are entirely inconsistent with her actions and I have a big problem taking her words seriously. I just cannot. We should believe none of what we hear and 50% of what we see right??
She also sent me this email yesterday:
Hi,
When I came to visit you yesterday, it was for two reasons. 1) To do my tax return and 2) to tell you I don't feel upset with you anymore. I wanted to spend the day with you to see how we interact with one another. I wanted you to do and say all the things that would tempt me to come home. I wanted you to make me feel loved and wanted.
We had a nice day.
When I was at the airport, I was disappointed that you didn't say anything wonderful to me before we parted company.
When I was on the plane I started crying because you spent the night with another girl when I advised you against it. You are not acting like a man trying to win his wife back, but easily moving on. If the situation was reverse I would NEVER want to be with anyone else, I would be trying to win you back.
This has been a test and you failed. I would never expect you to start fooling around with other girls, I want you to sort things out with me.
I want you to cancel your date with the other girl on Saturday and not to date anyone else. I am so upset.
I want to have a new start and I'm waiting to see what happens with you job applications.
I have never wanted us to break up permanently. I just want you to change and now you are messing everything up.
I've cried lots this morning, I feel so sad. I don't want you to be with anyone other than me.
Lately I've been thinking about all our good times together. How I always use to watch you go off and eagerly waiting your return. I use to enjoy watching you through the window walking down the street.
I don't want to abandon our plans, our future. We have always made a great team.
This email sounds wonderful, but her actions are entirely inconsistent with its content. I want to believe her but I am really angry as I write this: it seems so hypocritical that what is perfectly OK for her is not OK for me in her mind. I don't want to be with anyone else but her, but life has to go on - as heartbreaking as it is. I don't like the fact that she went off with another guy but I understand that it was my behaviour which led to this outcome. She has admitted that she shouldn't have jumped into another relationship so quickly, but it's done now. I think she's panicking because the situation that she thought she had under control has taken on a life of it's own.
I haven't responded to this email of hers because I feel so mad and do not want to say anything I later regret. Anything I email to her I want it to take me closer to the goal, and not further from it. I want to genuinely communicate with her from a position of love, compassion and caring but cannot find it in me this morning.
I would be extremely grateful for any experienced DBers to offer some pointers as to how best respond. I love my wife dearly but am not prepared to share her with anyone else if she wants to "work things out". I signed a marriage certificate which said "to the exclusion of all others" and I meant it.
What???? This is wrong on so many different levels. Let me first say that being abandoned as a child will deeply effect how you interreact with others and life in general. You need to learn to love yourself. You don't need anyone to make you feel loved in life. It may take you another decade to figure this out, but I hope not.
My first reaction is, who the hell does this woman, your wife, thinks she is telling you and being with another man traveling the country, but at the same time telling you that she doesn't want you to have a baby with another woman. However on the other hand you are doing the same damn thing. If you really want your wife back, which obviously you do, you would stop dating other women all together. Crazy! Hopefully she will come to her senses.
On the other hand, if you are still DBing, and wanting to save your marriage, why are you dating? If your real desire is to save your marriage, involving another person isn't fair to any of you.
GH31,
She has a point. You did fail the test, big time. You aren't acting like someone that wants her back. In point of fact, you are being a hypocrite when you say her actions don't fit the words. You expect her to dump OM, but are dating other women.
She wants you to fight for her. So, how about saying you understand how she feels, you do want her, but that you also think that it works both ways, if she wants to be with you, then dump the other guy.
Brandon, Dry Heat and Just_Me,
Thanks for writing guys. I hope it doesn't take another decade to get over the abandonment (being sent to boarding school between ages 11 and 18) but if it does then so it must be. I will do whatever it takes to get over it ASAP. For a while this island mentality - that noone else cares as much about your interests as you was a source of pride for me. Nowadays it is not. A loving, generous and compassionate attitude is much more appropriate. Since DBing and making changes to my self image, I have found people being much more generous to me. When I took my shoes in for repair a few weeks ago, the guy did not charge me for the job which would have taken at least 20 minutes work plus materials. I was astonished.
This previous single-minded mentality allowed me to operate successfully in the business world and also brought me academic success. Whilst it's a great coping strategy to have at boarding school, it's an absolutely destructive and inappropriate position to take if you want a beautiful marriage, which I do. I have learned that no other worldy accomplishments matter if you don't have loving family relationships in your life. The other rewards are hollow at best.
Just_Me, I understand what you are saying. I guess my attitude is a vestige of that "Look Out for Number 1" mentality. She decided to end the relationship and took off shortly thereafter with another guy to another country. No matter what she says with her lips, her actions (which are a 180 of her words) speak volumes. I therefore have to assume that the relationship is over and try to rebuild my life from the rubble (something I really don't want to do).
When she visited me we had a great time and I told her I didn't want to be with anyone but her. I didn't get married simply to end up a statistic a few years later - I meant what I said to her when I took the vows. She has to live with the decisions that she made. Everything I told her when she asked I answered with the utmost equanimity and respect. I only told her because she was very eager to know, and she really pressed me. I have asked nothing of her sitch with the OM as per DBing doctrine.
Trust me, hearing these things from her is definitely an improvement on a few weeks ago, but I cannot in good conscience believe what she's saying when she's carrying on with this other fellow. It's her decision and there's nothing I can do about her, I can only lovingly detach and get to work on myself.
As it happens I have cancelled that date for Saturday
I apologize for the length of this reply. I haven't written anything like this to her because it's far too edgy - this is cathartic for me if nothing else. Everything I have written to her is validating, compassionate and non-judgemental; a complete 180 from my usual verbal venom.
I sincerely thank you chaps for your input.
Good job on the not going on the date. Just give it a little time. Be the bigger person in all this. While you might be encouraged by this site not "to pursue", it's really only pursuing if your spouse sees it that way. You should first do what works. If going to see her works, then do that. I don't think not responding at all to her e-mail shows what she's indicated she wants you to show....that you care that you aren't together anymore.
Hi Just_Me,
Again, I very much appreciate your input on this. I did reply to her after I had composed myself and re-validated her decision to leave. I explained that she had no other choice, and given the way I was behaving, I couldn't have expected any other outcome.
I also agreed with her that we made a great team and shared some of what I thought were our tenderest moments during our time together. I know that she has a new UK mobile number (you guys call them cellphones) but I haven't asked her for it. I also explained that I couldn't find the written words for her but acknowledged her wish that I respond promptly to her email. I have instead suggested that she calls so that we can talk.
I have given her the login details to my Skype account and she has written back saying she will either call me today or on Monday. I have suggested today as I'm in Munich all day Monday and will be on my mobile - and there's poor reception and noise, notwithstanding that it's costlier.
I just don't know what to do with this little girl Just_Me. I went to London Heathrow airport to surprise her when she came back from Australia so that I could "win her back" and discovered that the OM was there to pick her up. He bolted when he saw me (I didn't see him) but in the end my wife ended up going off with him saying she "didn't want to let him down". Then on Tuesday she flew back to the UK and will be going on a trip with this guy and one of his colleagues to France shortly. Do you understand my thoughts when I say "actions speak louder than words"? Given that our only contact is via email and occasional flying visits, she's 1000km away and with another man, what choice do I have other than to lovingly detach and "move on" - whilst remaining a sincere friend to her? This should be a very clean break-up because we are far away from our families in Australia, far away from each other and we have no children. Yet, it seems we are really struggling to let go of each other.
In the meantime I have been making a list of what works and what doesn't, and been noting what I want to see more of. She is using the pet-names I had for her to sign off her emails, and some of the silly language that was reserved just for us. This is all a good sign, and I am patient - but I guess all of this wildly conflicting and confused behaviour is typical of a WAW.
This has turned out to be a long one again. Hope you're keeping well.
GH31
An interesting development today...
My WAW called me from England to my office in Germany and we ended up talking for 43 minutes. I received an email from her earlier this week after she visited me (see earlier in this thread) but I told her I couldn't reply with written words and that we needed to talk if she wanted a reply. I gave her access to my Skype account so she could do it.
Shortly before the call she also emailed me 2 of our wedding pictures from three years ago. How very, very odd.
Strange...in every interaction we have had since the breakup she has spoken of us getting back together "in the future". This one was no exception. She explained that after she's back from holiday with OM after Easter, that she wants to come and see me again in Berlin. She says she needs to "get back to reality" and "work on the future" and that she "sees us together in the future". She also said she wants us to have children together.
All wonderful words, and if I was really naive then I would believe her, but she still wants to go on this holiday. She really hates the idea of me dating other people so, when we were talking I told her in as composed and relaxed a manner as possible, that everything had changed when I discovered the OM. My wife had left, moved to another country and taken up with another man. Not only had she told me it was over, she had taken very decisive action to back her words up. I told her, and added "and I mean this with the greatest of respect.." that I found her position completely disgraceful and hypocritical and that her family would also. She agreed, saying "I know.." I told her I didn't want to be with anyone else, but that if my wife had taken off over the sea to be with someone else that "I had nothing to lose" because I had "already lost everything", so I didn't feel bad about dating other women - even though I would prefer to be dating her and married to her. I don't want to move on but I don't want to spend the next 60 years feeling sorry for myself either.
I then added that I am not prepared to share my wife with anyone else. That's just my view and other people are free to think what they wish, but that I could not and would not attempt a reconciliation while OM is in the picture and while we're 1000km apart.
This may sound harsh the way it's written here, but the reason I wanted to voice it, rather than write it to her is that the tone of voice in which I said it was very composed and mild. Usually I would have yelled, preached, lectured, pointed the finger etc but this time I said it with grace and equanimity - in other words a complete 180. She is still very keen on us staying in touch and keeping the dialogue open, probably because of this 180 over the last two months.
It's funny. As I was walking home last night from work I was so furious from her hypocrisy that I finally seem to be getting this feeling that "I'll be fine whatever happens". I hope it's not an ephemeral feeling but I imagine there'll be many more hard days and moments ahead. I know it was my bad behaviour and attitude which occasioned the breakup and I reiterated this to her during the phone call - telling her she was right to leave, but I cannot be responsible for the decisions my wife made subsequent to her leaving me.
This should be a clean breakup - no kids, different countries, no family nearby but instead it's as messy as hell. I don't want to let her go, and she doesn't want to let me go completely either. She has said "she doesn't believe in divorce..". Sounds like she really has been abducted by aliens, I know.
I'm not sure if I need any advice here. Is it normal to be feeling this indifferent about reconciliation when this stuff happens? My concern is that the the indifference/anger will soon subside and be replaced by that despair and longing again. I am very open to any advice/comment if you experienced DBers want to throw in your 2 cents.
best,
GH31
then added that I am not prepared to share my wife with anyone else. That's just my view and other people are free to think what they wish, but that I could not and would not attempt a reconciliation while OM is in the picture and while we're 1000km apart.
I agree with this completely, but maybe I'm in the minority. I think your wife is pursuing you, kinda, because you aren't a sure thing. I think it's okay to not accept what your wife is doing. It is great to draw a line in the sand. You did it in a composed friendly manner. She's more worried about OM's feelings than yours. That has to change or there isn't any reason to get back together.
Hello again Just_Me,
Really appreciate you looking out for me on this board. You're right, I am not a sure thing any more.
These are the facts: wife is gone, has moved to another country, is involved with OM, no kids, we are very far from each of our families, I do not have a phone number for her, the only means of communication we have is email, or she can call me at work like today.
For this reason (and I am sure that Michele would agree), the only technique available to me is the LRT. I really do see no other means of salvaging this marriage, something I am very committed to doing. We really have no reason to see each other - we have no house that we own, no kids, no joint finances...nothing other than our history and whatever chemistry is left. I also have great relationships with her siblings and father but that won't help me save the marriage. She herself has to want to.
The only way I have been able to keep the communication channels open is by doing the first 2 stages of DBing - containing and reducing the negative emotions of WAW, and working on strengthening the friendship. WAW agrees that she no longer feels angry or resentful and thinks of me as her "bestest friend". We may ven have crossed into the "dating" level number 3 (albeit briefly) as there was a lot of passionate kissing, cuddling during her visit and we even skipped along the street together near my home. She's saying very positive things about getting together again but is far from committed.
She said she doesn't belong in England where she is and that she "doesn't see herself" spending her life with this OM, but as a default reaction I believe none of it. She wants me to give her money as well as she is living off her credit card, but I won't do that if she's with OM and we have no kids. I didn't make the decision to end OR.
We are to believe none of what we hear when are WASs are in the throes of their torment, yes?? There are always 2 stories: the real one and the one that sounds good. You may be able to tell that I have always had tremendous difficulty trusting other human beings!
thanks
GH31
We are to believe none of what we hear when are WASs are in the throes of their torment, yes??
Yeah, I think so. Unlike you, there are many that are quick to dismiss the negative things that are said, like, "I never loved you", but aren't as quick to disbelieve the positive things. I think you have to do both, and let actions speak.
Hey GH31 -
My wife left me in June 2006 and she was having an EA that later evolved into PA. A lot of why this happened is because I pushed her away with angry, controlling behavior. She got fed up with it and then someone else who was very receptive to her came along and she jumped on his train. Once the OM was on the scene, the more I questioned her about him and heck, the more I even THOUGHT about OM... the more it pushed my W away. I have dealt with a lot of my internal baggage and have changed dramatically over the last 1.5 years for the better. I've also calmed down 1000 fold from where I was when my wife first left.
So I think we share some of that stuff in common and I want to give you some of my perspective, now that I've read your sitch.
1. It sounds like the DBing is working. Your W is seeing changes in you. This should be inspiring to you, but don't let your guard down. I bet you still have a long way to go. In fact, I'm pretty sure you will be working on your own baggage the rest of your life. It's a real blessing that you have come to accept your own issues. Lots of men can't even make it that far. The fact that you live in a different country than your wife and don't see her a lot works to your advantage in ways. When she sees you, the changes you've made are more dramatic to her... as opposed to partners that see each other on a daily or weekly basis. Keep working on yourself. You have to keep peeling the onion of your psyche back. Keep focusing on yourself and regardless of if you end up with your W or not... you will be a better person! You are already seeing the results with perfect strangers. Just think about what's waiting for you after a years' worth of "self healing."
2. Do you really want to save your marriage? I'm reading that you are sort of wavering at times. I suggest that you really go deep inside yourself and find that answer... regardless of what your W is saying and doing with OM. If it's "Yes I want to save my marriage with this woman and I love her" then indeed stop the dating. Also, STOP thinking about the OM. That includes trying to rationalize why W is still hanging with OM, even though she wants you. She's going through a process and unfortunately it involves some other dude. You don't even know how long it's going to take her to work through it all. There is no way to know for sure. What to do why waiting? See point #1 above. That's ALL you can do. Let her go, stop thinking about OM, and make changes to yourself without expectations. It's way harder to do than type...sorry.
You are in a way better position than most people on this message board. Your W is actually telling you that she DOES want to work it out. She wants you in the future. Most people here, myself included, are only praying to hear those types of reassuring words.
3. From what I've learned, W's that have been with verbally abusive and angry men are yearning for validation and acceptance. When you do talk with your W... compliment her. This will go sooo far! She wants to hear you say that she is beautiful. She want you to say that she is a little butterball of love. Don't give her the "I want you back" or the "I love you," but when you are on the phone, slip in a few "your voice sounds so wonderful" or silly stuff like "oohhh... for a second I though I got a call from an angel." When you see her tell her something like "you look beautiful" or "oh, you look wonderful in that dress." Compliments, compliments, compliments. Tactfully insert them from time to time. They will take you QUITE far, especially as you are trying to mend damage done.
Lastly, this guy Just_Me, he's a great great guy. Reading the post he left for me back in OCT/NOV 2006 probably kept me from a complete break down. Hi Just_Me... long time no chat. Thanks again for your great efforts on this message board!
at least she still has passion for you bro. That is a good sign. I wish I could have an email like that to read over and over again!
Well,
This weekend was OK. I went to another part of Germany to stay with some relatives and have some human contact.
Great weekend - ended up going out and staying out until 11am the next morning with my cousin and her friends. Glad to be doing that still at the age of 31, although I don't want to make a habit of it.
For some reason yesterday and today I felt absolutely devastated and ruined. It is horrible, this emotional rollercoaster that is a separation. The emotions change more rapidly than mountain weather conditions.
My wife has emailed me asking about how all of my job interviews are going, still signs off emails with my pet-name for her and with "love". I have stopped doing that and sign off all of my emails with "best wishes" or "take care" and start them with "Dear [Wife's name]". She has sent me around three emails today which is a definite improvement on before.
For those of you new to my sitch, the only contact I have with my wife is through email. She lives in another country and we don't speak over the phone currently. She has a new number which I haven't asked for and which she hasn't given to me. he has called me once and come to visit me once since the separation. All on her own initiative which I guess is good. Rather than responding immediately I always wait for a day to pass before replying as per LRT.
She has also asked me to make plans for a "fabulous future together" but what I don't like is how conditional her return is sounding and the fact that the OM is still in the picture and also....that she's currently living in another country. If we are going to make plans for a fabulous future together than I definitely need to involve her in the planning process and I believe that recommitting to the marriage and permanently severing ties with the OM is 100% necessary. I don't want to pressure her so I haven't even bothered replying to her yet (and I don't yet know what to do). Any advice from successful DBers as to how to play this.
It all sounds encouraging and I want to see more of it but whilst the OM is in the picture I wouldn't even consider taking her back, even though my mind, heart and gut-feeling really wants to. So for now, I keep up LRT and loving detachment because it's giving me the results I am looking for. I also continue to work on the anger, selfishness and abandonment issues.
Nothing juicy here I know, just wanting to vent. I cannot believe a word she says at the moment. It's like she's treating OR more like we were boyfriend and girlfriend rather than husband and wife.
Hello GratefulWeb,
Thanks heaps for sharing your thoughts with me here. It is much appreciated.
I think you are 100% correct about throwing in the odd compliment here and there which will probably work a treat. I have spoken with a DB coach who suggested I write in an email what I admire about her, and that I would do well to assimilate some of her traits into my own life. She is very relaxed, mild and gentle in comparison to my structured, passionate and ambitious nature. I was also to tell her that I have a ways to go. I did this and was very pleased with the response.
I can see what you mean about the fact that I appear to be wavering. This is due to the enormity of the task that I am facing and that if and when I get her back, I will have to learn to trust her again.
We never had any trust issues before in all our time together and our relationship actually unravelled really quickly.
I can live with the fact that she developed relationship with OM after the separation because it was my anger, verbal cruelty and complaining which occasioned the breakup, but the lies and hypocrisy I find terribly difficult to handle. I ask myself "how dare she tell me not to fool around with other girls?" or "how can she say I don't want you to be with any other girls but me....but I'm not with her - the ****ing OM is?".
I wonder if I can trust her if I get her back, that she has severed ties with OM completely. I know that there's no way I can control this so I will have to have faith (something I have never had in anything or anyone until now) that she's telling me the truth. I understand from much reading that we can expect a withdrawal period - as a reformed caffeine addict I can understand this.
I must work on these issues because I cannot have any more relationships with the people I love damaged in this lifetime, simply because I feel the need to vent with my temper and verbal venom. I would like my beautiful wife to get the most benefit from this personal growth. I am actually glad the separation happened so that I could finally make peace with my past and dampen the emotional relationship that I have with it. The stuff that's happened subsequent to the separation is what's hardest - lies, hypocrisy, talk of reconciliation whilst being with OM etc.
Anyway, just want to say that you guys are awesome. Without this forum to share thoughts and benefit from those who've trodden this path before, I would be an absolute basket case.
best,
GH31
Hola GH31 -
Don't over saturate her with compliments, but perhaps make it a goal to interject one or two "kind" comments in every email/phone call/meeting. You have to repair the damage you've done with your serpent tongue. Believe me, I've been there. And like you were suggesting about telling her that "you still have a ways to go," it might serve you well to LIGHTLY give her acknowledgment of your poor treatment towards her. "I just want you to know that I'm aware of the negative things I've said and done in our R. I'm truly sorry and don't want to treat you that way any longer." Something like that anyway. Don't do that a lot, but perhaps drop that in tenderly at some point.
Have we established that you are really willing to go the distance with her, regardless of what has happened up to this point (including her interaction with OM)? If so, then your concern about trusting HER again may have to be a LOWER priority. Your hurtful comments and actions towards her is what got you in this situation (at least partially). It sounds like she is trying to find out if she can trust YOU right now.
So, keep focused on your own issues. Keep cleaning up your own emotional baggage. Be consistently loving, receptive, and accepting of her. You need to draw her back to you first. Once you have done that, then you can look deeper into if you will can actually trust her again. If you are successful at reeling her back to you, I think you will be able to see HER true intentions more clearly... thus revealing whether or not you can trust her.
Make sense?
Dude, this is all very hard stuff to do. I know you are in pain and I know you are angry about some of her hypocritical demands... and RIGHTLY so! You deserve to be treated fairly. It's a hard time emotionally. I bounced all over the place emotionally for about a year after my separation. But reading your story here... you've got WAY better of a shot at it then I do.
Hello again guys,
I went online this morning to clear my credit card balance and find that my wife has made some online purchases using my credit card numbers. I don't remember giving them to her so I am at a loss as to how she got them. It's not a lot of money - about $100 and I have my whole lifetime to recover from it, but now I am really thrown into doubt as to whether I want her back.
I'm sure in a day or two these feelings will subside and once again be replaced by longing and wanting her back though.
What's her game, is she trying to take revenge on me by running off to another country with OM and talking all the time about reconciliation - and doing it on my nickel? IMHO the consequences of leaving a marriage are a package deal. You can choose to separate from your husband and go with OM but you can't then say that your husband can't go with other women, and also still rely on your husband for economic outpatient care when you're bodily able to work yourself, and have no kids. She has been "supporting" herself using her credit card and is unemployed. I just do not think she is capable of making quality decisions at the moment - her credit card is Australian and the Australian dollar is a banana republic currency compared to the British pound, so she will be getting screwed on exchange rates bigtime.
It should be the easiest separation in the world but she isn't wanting to let me go.
I cannot describe the rage that I am feeling right now. $100 is nothing, but the lies, underhandedness and hypocrisy of doing it have made me livid beyond belief. It's the principle of the matter. However, I am still maintaining the 180 and being very calm about it. I'm not even going to mention it to her; I will simply call "Lost & Stolen" to make sure that any further attempts made by her to do this (and I'm now sure she will try it again) are unsuccessful.
If she wants to take off to another country while #*@!ing someone else she can do it on her own damn nickel.
GH31,
Call the credit card company and ask them to give you a new number.
Hi Just_Me,
Have taken care of that already. My wife is calling me later so I am sure there will be an opportune time to bring it up. The way I bring it up will be a complete 180 from the way I normally bring stuff like this up i.e. yelling, screaming, blaming, finger pointing etc.
Some people are just so damn cheeky!
thanks,
GH31
Are you going to ask her to reimburse you? If your not, then I wouldn't even bother (but then again, I'm not very confrontational..so many that's the wrong approach). I'd just wait for her to try the card again and then she'll get the gist of it when it doesn't work.
GH31...
I can see how talking to her while you are this mad could cause a backslide. Be very careful. One small crack in the dam could cause a huge out burst from you. Perhaps you could avoid the call until you are calmed down more so?
Mr. Gratefulweb & Just_Me,
Thanks to both of you for listening to my ventings and vitriol. I would much rather be venting on here than to my wife. That would in fact defeat the whole purpose of DBing.
I did get a call from my wife yesterday at lunchtime. I ended up changing my Skype password so that she couldn't use it anymore as it's linked up to my credit card, but she emailed me asking for it so she could call me. When I had spent sufficient time calming myself down (and doing a 180 by not responding immediately) I gave it to her, she called and we spoke for over an hour.
We spoke about lots of things - in fact the conversation was relatively positive, but towards the end of the conversation I casually interjected that I had to go because I needed to call my credit card company. When she asked why, I very casually and almost indifferently said that for some reason two unauthorized transactions were showing up on my credit card statement and that I needed to get a new number issued so that it didn't happen again.
Silence
Then she spluttered like an old car and admitted that she had used my card numbers. She had bought a DVD set when she was "feeling down" and used my card to pay for the flight to see me last week. To be fair, everything else she has paid for on her own nickel and rightly so. I'm still angry that she has done it but I know that venting, lecturing etc. will get me nowhere - it will simply make matters worse.
Anyway, during the conversation she said that she has really been missing me and that she can't imagine life without us being together. She said she wants to come home in 2 weeks time to get back together...after this holiday with OM and his colleagues to France. I asked her if she's sure that's what she wanted and she said "yes, I have been thinking about it constantly". She even asked me to make an appointment with the fertility clinic.
My reaction was cool, cautious and if anything curious.
Now, some of you might think that's cause for jumping up and down but I am still very wary and cautious. That is still 2 weeks away and when DBing 2 weeks can be a long time. I am still not going to take any notice of what she says and only 50% notice of what she does. She will need to move all of her stuff in two trips so I will consider us "back together" once she's back from the second trip. However, I am encouraged by what she has been saying. She also sent me a load of pictures of wonderful moments that we've shared together on different trips and occasions, saying that we make the best team, but....I am still not going to jump up and down yet. I've been dealing with people long enough (I'm a headhunter) to know that what people say and what they do are two very different things. Things aren't always what they seem. Cautious optimism is the way to go.
I also know that if we are back together, then the real work of Piecing will begin and she may take a few months to get over the OM. I even mentioned this to her in the phone conversation. 2 years ago I gave up caffeine and found that very, very hard but I am SO glad that I did; I shared with her that she can expect it to be tough. However, if she does come back and I do get a second chance at my marriage then I will be one very happy guy.
Anyway, during the conversation she said that she has really been missing me and that she can't imagine life without us being together. She said she wants to come home in 2 weeks time to get back together...after this holiday with OM and his colleagues to France. I asked her if she's sure that's what she wanted and she said "yes, I have been thinking about it constantly".
I agree with your skepticism. I don't understand how she can be telling you she wants to be with you...but after this holiday with OM. That's the big sticking point. It's hard to reconcile, "wanting to be with you", and "after going on holiday with OM". But what can you do about it? There are really only two choices...just accept it or tell her that her actions aren't telling you that she's as fully invested in a relationship with you as her words would indicate.
She even asked me to make an appointment with the fertility clinic.
I very very strongly encourage you not to do this. This woman has been out of the country seeing another man and she wants to jump right back into considering a baby with you? She might actually come back (or maybe the vacation will change her mind), but once back might start to think that OM was the greener grass. You don't want to have a baby in this situation. I don't think introducing a baby to a troubled relationship helps anything. Right now you aren't tied to her for life...add a baby into the mix and you will be. Don't put yourself into a position where you have to travel 1000 miles to see your kid. I would not be at all shy about expressing my reservations about this...especially since she can't even cancel this vacation with OM.
I agree. I am going to treat this very, very carefully if she comes back. I will maintain all of my 180s but I don't think I will be satisfied that the marriage is viable until there is evidence to suggest that.
I will always work much harder on the M that I used to; I think that's a natural consequence of DBing and it would take a good two years before I really start to think of us as "reconciled".
I have no expectations at the moment. None whatsoever. As far as I am concerned I still need to make plans for my future without her in it.
GH31,
I see that you are very detached from your wife, and perhaps you need to be, but neither of you can ride 2 horses with one backside. So bottom line, both of you need to decide what you want to do and then make it a priority. I get the feeling that you both are saying, "I won't commit unless you commit first", and without commitment the game that you are playing can last a lifetime. I agree with Just Me, baby making needs to wait until you two are fully committed to this relationship. I'm sure globe-trotting is a lot of fun, and if that is the lifestyle that the two of you choose, there is nothing wrong with it. But there is no reason to bring a child into the mix if the two of you are just going to keep going separate ways. Sounds to me like she really wants to go to France. What kind of love trip will it be if she has already decided to split with OM man when it is over? Sounds like she is using him to see the sights.
Hi Sara,
I really appreciate your input on this. I am detached from my wife but that has been a deliberate (and a very hard) choice that I have made. I'm not sure if you have read the rest of my thread but when the bomb exploded she moved out, left a note saying she was in "two minds about us", took off to another country and got herself an OM. Also, we are far from our families and each other and have no kids - therefore we're not obliged to stay in contact with each other. So far we have only done so because we want to. Without doing a complete 180 and becoming the kind of person that someone would WANT to stay in touch with, I doubt that this could have been achieved.
The only contact we had for the first 6 weeks of separation was through email and one phonecall. The transition from a full-on, loving and passionate relationship complete with active sex life to intermittent email contact was very heartbreaking and very abrupt.
Therefore, once I got into DBing I reasoned that the only technique I had available to me was the LRT. There was literally nothing else I could do. I called a DB coach (Jodie) and followed her advice to the letter, got the books, read, and applied. Loving detachment is not an easy thing to accomplish - not at all but I had to do it for my own sanity and to give myself the best chance of saving my marriage. Seriously, the pain was searing at times but I had to get a grip of myself.
Since the bomb I have been working on handling my anger, selfishness and abandonment/rootlessness issues which has been wonderful. I have agreed with my wife that the separation was necessary as no other circuit-breaker would have forced me to take a good, long hard look at myself.
It's the decisions that she has made subsequent to the separation that has made me ambivalent about taking her back; the lies and hypocrisy. For example we agreed that we wouldn't date others, then she went ahead and did it. She said a whole lot of things and then did the opposite, then she put expenses on my credit card without telling me.
And, since the separation I have had several lovely girls show an interest in me and whilst I would much prefer to work things out with my wife, this gives me confidence that if it is all over I will probably find someone to love again once my psyche is sufficently healed. I know I sound really indifferent - years of working in sales and being at boarding school have made me cultivate an indifferent demeanour but I mean it when I say it that I really want to reconcile with my wife and create an even more wonderful marriage than we had before.
We had 2 miscarriages last year and that really tears both of us up. We never really were able to give each other any comfort about it and I think this contributed in some way to our marital meltdown.
Great to hear a woman's input on my situation!
Have a great Easter guys!
GH31
GH31-
You are doing great. Keep working on yourself. Stay focused on yourself... keep healing.
Your W seems to be a bit in LA LA land. Hopefully she comes down to earth soon... and she just may!
Do NOT add a child into the mix right now. If your W thinks that having a baby will bring you two closer... it may in some regards, but it's not the proper progression for getting closer. Like Just_Me is saying and Sara... Don't do that. You have many bridges to cross before you bring ANOTHER human into your family.
Telling her this could get you negative results. You are going to have to be very gentle about it. Perhaps THERAPY (at least someone objective) would be a real good way for you to discuss the steps you two need to take and why a baby would not be a good thing right now. Let the dust settle first... see what new "grass" grows between you two.
Keep up the good work. Stay focused on your issues. Keep healing yourself. Never lose sight of that!
GH,
The miscarriages adds another dimension to the picture. You two are a very interesting couple! My husband and I went through infertility and several miscarriages (honestly they all get confused in my memory and I can't say how many). In fact, our first son is adopted, and then we had 2 children after that. I remember the depression caused by the miscarriages, and the sense of hopelessness. If that had been coupled with an angry spouse who treated me poorly I would have been out the door too. Going to another country sounds like an excellent idea! And I'd leap at the opportunity to travel to France with almost any man. (But don't tell my husband.) Your wife has some grieving to do. Miscarriages are losses, no matter how you look at it. I imagine she is escaping -- escaping her failure to accomplish what everyone takes for granted - babymaking, and escaping you. but she loves you. So she says. I say give her a chance. Let down the hard walls and let her in to a soft spot in your heart. She's been through the mill.
G'Day Sara,
Thanks for looking out for me. We actually chose to leave Australia because we wanted a change of scene and decided to come to Germany. I know that she had it in the back of her mind to have a baby here and so did I. After 3 years of marriage and jettisoning all family planning measures, there is still no sign of a little one.
This is a difficult thing to deal with. In the last 2 phone conversations that I have had with her, she says she feels the need to "start doing grown up things" like "buying a home", "having a family" and that she needs to "get back to reality". She also said when she came to see me last week that she is "having a break", "has gone AWOL" and "is a bit of a globe-hopper at the moment".
What a funny little girl she is! I think we have a rare glimpse into the inner machinery of a WAW's mind. Even better that those words are coming from her lips.
However, all of these encouraging things that she's saying I will believe (or not) when they are backed up by hard evidence - i.e. her actions. Right now as per DBing, I have absolutely no expectations - neither good nor bad.
For now I have another trip to the Alps lined up to take my mind of things and my Mum and Dad are coming next week to stay for 5 nights. Now they are one hell of a couple - married for 34 years and have never regretted a thing. Still happy together.
best,
GH31
GH31,,,I'd love to talk to you, I will be in France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Monaco from April 9th-19th. I've got a eurail pass, 5 countries. Maybe I could ring you or meet somewhere. My H invited me on this business trip, while he is working he said I could go on some tours and such while he was doing his thing, so I took him up on his offer!
BTW, your sitch needs time to play out. Just hang back and react the way you would want if the sitch was the other way around, if you know what I mean. Hard to do, but YOU CAN do it!
Sincerely,
Kim
GH31
You are doing fantastic and you are being the rock that you need to be (for both of you).
Hang in there and leave the door open, your wife appears to be very confused and messed up (aren't they all?!?) maybe the misscarriages last year didn't help.
If you can get over this as a couple then you will have the foundations to build a much better marriage. I hope you do overcome the issues, I really do.
Hang in there and give yourself a pat on the back for how you are doing and for looking at yourself and improving yourself.
(salute)
Hi GavinO,
Thanks very much for the words of encouragement. It's been a few days now since W and I have been in touch and I always find that the longing and despair begin their slow creep into my psyche after a few days without contact. She won't have access to email or internet (except an internet cafe) so I am not going to kill myself over it. I'll wait for her to get in touch again first - as that has been working and I want to keep doing what works.
All I can be pleased about is that the weather will be terrible whilst she's doing this little trip.
She has said to me that she will come home on 02.04.2008 but I will believe it when I see it - and only then.
Hope you're OK and getting through the days. It does get easier but some days are really, really tough.
GH31
gh,
wow, I did read through your entire stitch.. you guys have been through a lot. First I want to commend you on sticking it out.. Most would have given up by now.
Although I Do feel for you both regarding the miscarriages.. ive had one myself, and I guess everyone deals with it differently, but that certainly should not condone what she has done, actually what she has done is pretty drastic.
i don't understand the trip thing either.. doesn't make sense to me, maybe she needs to escape 'reality' for a bit, but not at the expense of hurting you, that just plainly irresponsible.
I do hope that things will start looking up for you. All you can do it work on yourself and be true to yourself. and no matter what happens, you will be ok, believe me.
good luck to you and take care..
tal
Hi TAL,
Thanks for getting in touch and giving me your input. She is very confused at the moment it seems, but recently the message has been consistent every time we have spoken - at least for the last month. Her fixity of thought is encouraging in that she *appears* less confused than before (although I am not going to jump the gun).
I think this separation was a bomb waiting to go off, because my selfishness and verbal abuse once coupled with something else (miscarriage) would eventually have created the perfect marital storm. She was right to leave given the terrible jerk that I was. As I have said before, it's what happened subsequent to the separation that has been hard to swallow. The uncertainly and torment of being completely alone in a new city and separated from the one I love was also too much to bear at times.
She said last Thursday that "she wants to come back", "doesn't believe in divorce", "we make a fabulous team" and that she "can't give up on her marriage" so this is encouraging although I cannot allow myself to completely trust her word yet (although I want to). If and when she comes back - or not, is when I will feel more certain. The fact that she is on holiday with some former work colleagues including OM make me very very wary about trusting her word. As per DBing I am still not believing anything that I hear.
I absloutely applaud the DBers that hang in there sometimes for a year or more so that they can save their marriages. This is by far the hardest thing I have ever done but I cannot imagine NOT doing whatever it takes to save my marriage. I'm so glad I found this site and you guys.
All the best,
GH31
Hi guys,
Hope you all had a good Easter. I got myself down to Munich this weekend as I am considering a job down there and wanted to check the city out further - so as to make an informed decision. It's a wonderful city and I would most certainly recommend it as a place to visit if nothing else.
It has now been a week since my wife called me and we spoke for over an hour. During the conversation she said that she wants to come home said she wanted to come back on 1st April, after she comes back from a ten day work trip with OM and one of his colleagues. I suggested that she comes on the 2nd after my parents have gone. She said lots of other positive things like "I don't want us to abandon our plans" and "I have been thinking about us constantly" and "I don't believe in divorce". I also asked if she was sure she wanted to come back and she said "yes" and I mentioned that she would need time to get over OM. She said she would need "about a week" but I think that is naive.
According to what I can gather, she will be hanging around in Paris whilst the other two are at work during this week, and then will fly back to where she has been staying in the UK on April 31.
Now, the problem. It has been a week since the conversation and there's still a week to go before she supposedly comes back. She has not called since and only sent me an email on Easter Sunday to say "hope you're having a nice Easter" and "speak to you soon". I have only sent her one email since to wish her the same. I am wondering if I let my guard down shortly after she called because I emailed her asking her to let me know when her travel arrangements are finalised. Maybe that was a bit too pushy, but in the context of our phone conversation I didn't think so at the time...
I know that this OM is absolutely besotted with her and wants her to get a divorce from me; at the moment my imagination is just running wild with stuff and I can't seem to be able to turn it off. As per DB principles I am very cautious and guarded about her coming back and even whether to believe that she'll follow through on it. I am just trying my best to have neither good nor bad expectations about where things are going - if they're going anywhere at all. I agreed that she could buy a flight on my credit card but nothing is showing up on my statement yet. The mere fact that she's said she's ready to come back and discontinue contact with OM, but that she wants to do this holiday first makes it impossible for me to really trust her word.
Guys, it is very difficult not be encouraged by these developments and have hope but at the same time I refuse to believe her 100% because she hasn't been completely honest with me since the separation in relation to OM. I can't not have hope and I can't believe what I don't see - so this cocktail of emotion is just super hard to deal with. She was also very confused a month ago and I'm not immediately inclined to think that she is "all better".
As far as I am concerned I am still making full use of the LRT. Michele's book recommends to do it when divorce has already been filed (not my sitch) or if you are already separated (definitely my sitch as we only have email contact and live in different countries). So...this is what I will do. Until the facts on the ground indicate otherwise I will continue to move on with my life as if she is not going to be a part of it. This isn't to be done in a malicious or spiteful way, but in a loving way. I want to be her best friend and she says I am - but unless she's back I won't be 100% available 100% of the time.
I don't think there is anything else I can do for now.
GH31,
Wow, what a hard situation, she is saying one thing and appears to be doing another and actions speak louder than words as such, I don't mean that negatively.
Easier said than done bit detatch yourself from the situation, remember that you don't need her and you can be happy without her although I know (and you know) you will be happier with her.
Back off and see what happens, I backed off in my sit and since it appears she is comming to me more.
You are sensible to be wary, keep being very wary until there are some decent signs of recommitment, then you will need to resolve the issues that caused this.
Have a look through the WAW section, it provides a bit of an insight and also there are a number of stories where the WAW comes back to the LBS and the LBS becomes the WAW (role reversal) it is good to read these as you can see where WAW'a have caused themselves great pain by being WAW's in the first place, it also helps to identify the feelings and issues that may arise when you reconcile.
Also provides a bit of encouragement for you to detatch and wonder if you want to be with your spouse while they are like they are, it helps as then you can decide to hang in there because you want to rather than 'need' to.
Hang in there, detatch and don't give up.
Keep well
Gavin
No news is good news. Don't let negative thoughts get you down. Your mind will play tricks on you. She has this chance to find herself and think of what she wants before she re-commits to a marriage. This is good for you too. There is no point in re-investing in the marriage if she remains undecided. Both of you need a chance to consider life with and without each other, and then choose. And making that choice is important. It is not something to enter into lightly.
My God, sometimes this road is a hard, hard, hard one.
I have nothing to report really. My wife called me about ten days ago to say that she wanted to come back and "give our marriage a chance" and that "she doesn't believe in divorce", "doesn't like giving up on things", "doesn't want to abandon our plans" etc. In fact, throughout the entire separation she has said things like "it wouldn't feel right to let go of you" and "I don't think I want to be without you permanently" but it's her actions that have troubled me.
She then sent me a bunch of our wedding pictures via email saying that we're the best team in the world - the second time she has done this.
She gave the date that she would come back as 2nd April 2008 which is just under a week away. In previous conversations and a visit she has said that "it's inevitable that we'll get back together", that "it's destiny", "you're one of us" (meaning her family) which is all great but at the moment she is on holiday in France with OM and one of his colleagues. She justified her going on the holiday because I did something very selfish 5 years ago which I had already been told was forgiven, and now it's her turn. I absolutely admit that what I did was selfish and entirely indefensible but am wondering if her justification is simply a convenient excuse.
I have only had one email from her since when she called to wish me a Happy Easter and "speak to you soon", and I have sent her just one.
I guess my problem is that I am really struggling to believe her due to recent lies denying OM and her very confusing behaviour about a month ago. I am not unconditionally believing her but the mere fact that she came to visit me and then spoke to me twice (for an hour each time) and said the same message have given me hopes which I REALLY don't want to be dashed. I know I should try and divert my thoughts from the fear of being disappointed but I find myself unable to today. Patience is such a hard thing to deal with for me - it really is but I know that I must maintain this 180 always.
Sara, you are right about the mind playing all kinds of tricks etc. on you. I have scarcely been able to concentrate for days.
My heart goes out to all of you guys on here. I know my situation isn't as bad as some but I just feel such an urgent need to vent today - and this is my only outlet. It's wonderful that we can find comfort in each other but it's also very very sad to know that there is so much heartbreak out there.
Hang in there, assume that there is no contact until 2nd April and if there is, maybe that is a bonus. Go lift some weights, or go for a walk etc, I have started walking and it helps, I also talk to my mum or sister on the phone while I do.
See what happens, I know it is confusing, upsetting and hard but patience and time are key from my limited understanding.
One way of looking at it (I look at my sitch in this way) is that she has 'gone off on one' for a bit and will return to normal soon (I hope).
Hang in there!!
GH,
All of our situations are unique in there own way. I can see how waiting could drive you nuts, but hang in there, Time will tell. You are going to second guess yourself, a lot!.. but one thing holds true, be true to yourself, don't let yourself get to beat up. Forgiveness will come, slowly, its not a overnight thing... Our minds wander and its sometimes gets us in trouble (i'll be the first to admit that one!).. don't let it take you over.. think of the positives and do things for yourself..
Take care !
tal
GH31,
How it going? have there been any developments or contact from the WAW? and how are you doing?
Would be good to hear from you
All the best
Gavin
It's been a while since I have posted on here but some things have happened in my situation.
My wife came to visit me again at lunchtime on Thursday and ended up staying until Saturday night when she flew back to the UK. She has brought around the majority of her belongings and says that she intends to reconcile with me and that I belong in her family. She has called all of the stuff she has brought back her "downpayment" and said that she will bring everything else back at next weekend "at the latest". I asked her what made her arrive at her decision and she said that it began to dawn on her that the longer she left it, the harder the situation would be to retrieve. Essentially, she has been having doubts about leaving me since I discovered the OM, a month after she left. She asked me a while back if I had dated anyone else and I was honest with her (yes) and she realised that time was no longer on her side.
We did a lot of fun things - go out and about, play pool, got a few other things done etc and we drifted into a lot of OR talk. I am quite sure that too much OR is bad but I seem to really struggle avoiding it. I never bring it up but I'm thinking that it might be best to let it go as soon as I can when it does come up.
We slept in the same bed both nights - some cuddling and caressing but no ML. I actually think it will take some time for us to get to that stage if at all. No ILYs yet from her and I think they will be a long time coming also. She says we should go on a holiday to rebuild the connection and she finally acknowledged that it will take some time to get over all of this. I asked her if the she had ended the R with OM and she said "no not yet - not completely". This is tough - I know she thinks the world of him and has said he's a "very good person" and "all the things that you really struggle with come naturally to him" - I validated her but I must admit it is so hard to hear. She is very concerned about "letting him down" as he has "done everything right". Of course - it's a new relationship and it's only 5 weeks old for heaven's sake.
I mentioned to her that I only wanted to know 2 things: 1. do you intend to have any contact at all with him once it's over and 2. when did it all start? She said that there would be no need to have any contact afterwards even though she cares about him and hopes he's well and that it started a few days after the separation. I know that I am going to have a tremendously hard time coming to terms with trusting her again. I take full responsibility for causing the breakup but this rebuilding of trust is going to take some work for sure.
I have done my best to be a friend to her, validated her grievances, done nice things for her and I think this DBing has worked so far. I repeated that the separation was the right thing to do and that nothing else could have been a good enough circuit breaker. I know she is scared about my old ugly self (anger, violent temper, meanness, lack of generosityand kindness) coming back and it really muted and dampened our interactions with each other. I really do sense that she is struggling.
On the inside it feels wonderful that things have moved in this direction but on the other I feel totally overwhelmed with resentment, sadness, anger and murderous (literally) thoughts towards OM. I am ashamed to admit it but I think about running him over slowly with a steamroller - feet first, or pouring petrol over him and setting him on fire. I hate to admit to having these thoughts but God knows I have them and so should you all. I don't know how to deal with them and getting them out somehow makes eases the burden. I know that forgiveness is my issue and mine alone - noone else can do that for me, and believe me I want to forgive and get over this.
On balance I am very happy about the direction that things are moving in. I must look to the future and not dwell on the past. It will be very hard to do but that is not an excuse to avoid the work. It will be a long time before I am even out of the woods and all things being equal, I would expect to be "piecing" for at least 2 years. Day by day...
Hi guys,
I have a question for experienced DBers. When my wife came to visit me at the end of last week, she asked me "how has the separation been for you?". Since we were in a public place (a hair salon) I answered that it's best we don't discuss it here but it's a conversation that we can have in the months to come. In truth, I had to fight back tears.
I would like to know if it's worth me telling her how it has been. In truth, it has been the most searing, traumatizing event in my entire life and has affected me profoundly. Should I be telling her this?
She is making a lot of overtures about reconciliation i.e. asking me to plan a trip for the two of us, talking about future plans with her dad, giving me forms for taking her surname into mine, and moving lots of her stuff back into our apartment. All of this is great but I get the impression that if she comes back when she said she would (the weekend), she will want to quickly move on as if nothing has happened whilst I am here absolutely traumatized and shell-shocked.
The other concern of mine is continued contact with OM. True reconciliation cannot begin whilst OM is still in the picture I'm sure - although she has said that there'll be "no need" to continue contact with him, I am aware of just how difficult it will be for her not to.
Not sure what to do here, but I am nevertheless encouraged by the direction things seem to be moving in.
Would be very grateful for any input by experienced DBers.
GH31
Personally I think you should tell her how you feel but do so in a non threatening, non judgmental way.
She needs you to be honest with her but she does not need to be accused. You need to keep channels of communication open and make her feel able to talk to you.
If you look at my signature line you will see how long I have been at this. I have learnt that the changes we make in order to be better people and keep the M alive are permanent changes. Whatever you do don't stop DBing-it's a life skill. That doesn't mean don't talk etc, but it does mean keep an eye on things and do 180's if you need to. Communicate effectively. Be the best you can be.
I think the phase you are about to move onto can be very hard; one spends so long just wanting another chance -and then if you are lucky you get it. However the rush of emotions can be overwhelming. Just when you imagined life would be all romance etc you get these strong feelings of resentment, hate for the OP etc coming to the front. Or you can be having a very good day and suddenly you will be side swiped by a painful memory or a hurtful thought. Anniversaries of dates when things happened will be so painful....and because you have your spouse back you think you shouldn't be feeling these things. Well all those feelings are normal.
I am lucky in that my H supports me through these times if I can explain to him in a non judgemental way what is going on. Sometimes I fail miserably and get quite accusing - which doesn't go down well as he gets defensive as he feels guilty - but other than that he really helps me through. We try to replace the bad memories with new, good ones.
It took around a year post reconciliation before my H acknowledged completely out of the blue that the OW, was a skank. I tried for a long time to forgive the OW but it twisted me up. I felt so bad that I HATED her; I was brought up never to HATE anyone. In the end, the only way I could move on was to just acknowledge to myself that I didn't have to forgive her; I don't think I ever will. Since I decided that her significance has diminished.
Good luck to you.
Hi Saffie,
Thanks very much for your kind words of encouragement. I am under no illusion that a reconciliation, especially the beginning would be very very tough. I still don't consider myself to have that chance yet and won't do until she makes good on her pledge to move the rest of her stuff back in.
The biggest problem for me will be trusting whether W has truly let OM go or not. Geography would keep them physically apart but I am also (dare I say it) terrified that she'll just go again. That fear may be healthy, but it certainly wouldn't be healthy to have it overwhelming me.
Can I ask you saffie, did you and your H separate or did you live together whilst the A was in full progress? Also, did your H require a few months to mentally let go of OW? I would expect letting go of OP to take some time. I took me well over a month to let go of caffeine when I quit and I imagine an OP would take far longer.
You have been at this a long time and I sincerely admire your strength. I hope that all the hard effort has been worth it for you.
best,
GH31
GH31,
I want to give you advice, but am struggling with what to say. It's good that she wants to try, but I can't get a sense whether she really does want to. It sounds so calculating...like a business decision. And it's occurring without any input at all from you. Did she say, "are you interested in having me back?", or has she pretty much said that she's coming back?
I understand that the logistics of her move pretty much necessitate her actually moving in, rather than taking things more slowly. That's okay. It's something to be worked through.
What's not okay is for her to assume that things can just go back to what they were. For one, it seems a little hard to believe that she moved out then started a relationship two days later. Why did she pick so far away? What are the odds you'd move that far away and then start some relationship within 2 days? Even if she isn't lying about that, there will still be trust issues. At first you'll be relieved she's back and you can try, but believe me, you will wonder whether she's talking to OM (who likely won't just fade into the woodwork on his own) and even if she is not, you'll wonder when she picks up and leaves again.
As far as talking about things....now isn't the time to avoid relationship talks. You need to be able to listen to what she needs out of the relationship, but you also need to be able to express that you will have trust issues and that it will take you time to truly feel comfortable and safe in the relationship. You might also indicate that your vision of the future includes two people working to make the best possible marriage, but she's on probation and doesn't get a free pass to talk to OM or otherwise walk all over you. You don't have to put it harshly, but you definitely can express any reservations you have.
I would indicate to her that you missed her, you realized how important she is in your life, and that you would much prefer to spend the rest of your life with her. But I wouldn't get into any kind of desperate and weak stuff, like you were miserable and crushed. I would indicate that while you prefer her, you do know that life goes on, and it's too short to spend being insecure.
Me
P.S. I remember that the issue of having babies came up before. It possibly will again. If you don't express your issues with trusting her, it will be hard to explain why you don't feel comfortable adding a new life into a shaky marriage.
P.P.S. It is okay to have boundaries and stand tall. How interested in life with you could she be if the moment you show a backbone she starts doubting the marriage. You need to be able to feel that she's committed also, or you're just wasting your time.
GH,
My H and I didn't separate. I also didn't know about the A until the last week. It went on for 18 months. I new things weren't ok in my M but not why. I had made some major changes to myself and this led to my H coming to me and telling me about his A.
I don't know whether or not he was ready to end the A anyways - he had to think things through - I just don't know for sure. A's quite often finish between 12-18 months and I know the OW was pressurising my H - who knows?
In order for the reconciliation to work though, there had to be absolutely no OW contact, and we both had to be 100% transparent. My H read a couple of articles I gave him on healing from infidelity and they explained to him how I would be feeling. They were well written and made him realise the importance of being honest and open. It made him realise that it was better not to hide things just because he knew that telling me them would hurt me - he understood my need to know everything, however painful. They also told me how he would be feeling and it helped me cope with issues arising from that.
Personally I don't believe that getting back together is the time to hold back. Diplomacy is essential but so is honesty.
I read earlier in your thread that your W is going to be on a business trip with OM sometime in the next few weeks. Can she not do that? It would bother me. Any contact with OM doesn't seem right. I agree with the poster above who said that it seems a bit strange that she got together just a couple of days after separation - I bet it was leading up to happening before. Honesty and openess in communications are huge factors - how can one rebuild trust without them? I couldn't have done.
Each couple has different ways of interacting. The written word is one of the easier ways for my H and I. That was why giving him articles to read on what the LBS feels like worked well for us. I even got him to read the infidelity section in DB.
Hang in there.
Hi Saffie & Just_Me,
First and foremost I very much appreciate both of your responses. Saffie, the business trip to France has been and gone together with at least one other trip that I know of.
She did ask me a while ago if I wanted to get back together and I said "it is an outcome that I would like to reach" and "I didn't want to get married only to become a statistic 3 years later".
I am very cautious now and fully aware that I could be being set up. She maintains that it started subsequent to the separation but that they knew each other beforehand - I did notice that she was acting out of character a few weeks before this happened and on our anniversary evening she wanted to go to their farewell party, something that is very out of character for her. Then, a few days later she was gone. I do know that she was very unhappy with me in January as I had been losing my temper a lot and getting verbally nasty. My primary Love Language is Quality Time along with Words of Affirmation (bilingual) and I had been getting none. In my utter stupidity I decided to get really angry rather than try and reconnect with tenderness. This I am certain caused her to withdraw from the marriage and made her very vulnerable to an A. The reason she ended up going to the UK was that OM and some colleagues were working here in Germany at the same place as her, then they all went back to the UK and she went with them. 5 days later she spent 3 weeks in Australia before going back to the UK; earlier in the thread I describe how I went to meet her at the airport as a surprise and OM was there to pick her up.
Her decision to come back could also be financially motivated as she has not been working in the UK, rather living off her credit card. I work and she knows that I would financially support her but wouldn't pay off her credit card debt - that boundary I have already laid out. She has said that "she doesn't belong in England" and whilst she has looked for jobs there, has had the "gut feeling" that it wasn't something she should be doing. She is very close to her dad but hasn't had any contact with him for 6 weeks and her cousin lives very close to where she is in the UK, but she hasn't seen her either. She said she "doesn't want to have to answer questions about you and about our marriage".
Guys if you could advise me here or give me an idea of what really is going on, I would be extremely grateful. My DB coach said that when people are in the throes of an A their brain chemistry can be altered and make them exhibit "rebellious teen" type beahviour. Who knows? The DB coach has recommended getting her to read the DR chapter on infidelity so that she knows what to expect although I doubt she will acknowledge it as such since it "happened" after the separation. I will rephrase it as "other relationships".
Today we have been emailing each other constantly and she wants me to plan a trip for us both to go to Russia. She has also suggested a holiday for us both elsewhere to give us the chance to reconnect. Also, she put a deposit down for some new specs with an optometrist here and they will be ready next week.
She says it's "dangerous that we have been spending so much time apart" and that "the longer she leaves it, the harder it will be to retrieve".
I am actually mentally prepared to move on without her if necessary although I would much prefer to be with her. I have been working my butt off to change and feel successful in doing so, and these changes will be maintained no matter what the outcome. Basically, a second chance will be wonderful if it is genuine.
Experienced DBers, again your input would be much appreciated.
thanks,
GH31
I am actually mentally prepared to move on without her if necessary although I would much prefer to be with her. I have been working my butt off to change and feel successful in doing so, and these changes will be maintained no matter what the outcome. Basically, a second chance will be wonderful if it is genuine.
GH,
For the record, I wasn't saying don't take her back and I wasn't saying set conditions for her return, necessarily. I was saying that if she really wants to be with you, that you help her realize what obstacles that you will have to face as a couple, and that includes issues with trust.
If you know you'll be alright without her, then you have nothing to lose by taking her back in and giving this your best shot. The worst that can happen is she'll leave again, but that's not worse than never coming back (is it?). Or I suppose you could discover that she's still contacting OM, at which point you can decide whether you'll work through it, or ask her to go. But, nothing ventured, nothing gained....so give it your best shot.
Some time together would be nice, but make sure she isn't just using you for fun. It sounds like all she wants to do is vacation. Does she have an inclination to work in between? She might have a little growing up to do yet.
Having gone over your thread my best guess, (and remember it is all a guess because the only person who knows possibly what she feels is your W herself), is that she hasn't found happiness with OM and she became jealous at the thought of you seeing other people.
It's one thing to go off with another person yourself, but for the S you left behind to move on is another thing entirely!!! I would think that made her stop in her tracks a bit and reassess the situation. She sounds as though she was expecting to still find you waiting if things didn't work out with her and the OM, and then she realised that was a luxury that was going to disappear.
All the things you said do indicate that she is moving back into the R. I would take it all at face value. Be honest in your communications. Tell her that she needs to be honest too and comunicate how she feels - she must tell you if things aren't making her happy too. Remember you need a fresh partnership where you both feel comfortable; don't fall back into old habits. You have no reason to hide anything. However, especially with your history of anger, be careful not to be accusing when discussing things with her. Do you think you can do that? If you give her things to read to prepare her regarding your feelings you can always explain to her that although she may feel that it was not an A because you had separated, in your mind it feels different, and you just wanted her to understand where YOU are coming from.
Would you be willing to go to some sort of C together? My H and I considered it but when we got to a certain point my therapist said he thought that it might be more harmful than helpful. He felt that my H and I had cleared up most of the issues that hah led to the A and that too much C might end up harming more than helping.
I have continued to see my therapist, (for cognitive behavioural therapy), as it continues to help me look at myself and moderate my behaviour and the dynamics in the M, ( I have a habit of withdrawing emotionally from the R when I feel stressed).
It all sounds as though it is moving in the right direction.
Hi Just_Me & Saffie,
Thanks very much for your input and thoughts. I will take this very tentatively at first if she makes good her pledge to come home this weekend. I have spoken to a DB coach (Jodie) who has given me some pointers as to how to communicate in a way that makes her feel safe, uses collaborative language and doesn't accuse which I plan on mentally rehearsing and following to the letter.
Jodie agreed that she seems to be edging back into the marriage but I am still very wary and probably will be for a while. In spite of this I will "act as if" as much as possible. If she had simply fooled around during the separation like I did, I could probably live with it but the fact that she is having a full blown R with OM whom she holds in very high regard will create far more residual issues to work through, should a reconciliation take place.
This morning was very very tough as it's her birthday today and I know she will be with OM. I have bought her a couple of gifts in case she makes good her promise to come.
On a different note I urgently need to change jobs as the one I have isn't supporting my career goals at all. I have 3 offers - one in Munich and two in Sydney and W said she wants us to live in Munich for a while and see more of Europe before returning to Australia. I would like that too but to be honest I simply want to heal from this excruciatingly painful episode. I know that will take time but right now I just want the chaos to end.
Again, both of you thanks very much. Just_Me I have read your story and it sounds like you really have mastered DBing. It's great that both of you veterans are so generous and offer advice to us.
GH31
sounds like you really have mastered DBing
No, not really. It's much easier to know what you should do than actually do it. With my wife, there are times I'm aware of what my be a more effective way of handling things, but I fail to do it because I'm stubborn, angry, or I'm putting my own needs first. I still have quite a ways to go.
Hi guys,
Bit of an update to my situation. My WAW sent me this email at lunchtime which came somewhat out of the blue:
Hi GH31,
I need to confirm that you are definately committed to work on our future together.
Do you still feel the same? You have to be 100% sure.
I only want to get back together if you can asure me that you have changed for the better. I don' t want any repeats of before.
It's a big move to take a chance on you again, I don't want to be disappointed again. I want a beautiful life.
W
I was encouraged to get this email from her so I sent the following one in return:
Hi W,
Thank you for your email. I read it just after I sent the last one to you.
The answer on both counts is yes - in many areas and not just those relating to you and I.
I couldn't ever be the same again after going through the last 2 and a half months. I would like to say also that I empathise with your feelings of tentativeness and caution about the future, and wariness about repeats of before. I have identified many areas where I was just plain wrong and misguided.
I want a beautiful life too, and realised a while ago that I would never really have one unless I made and continue to make the necessary changes to my own life. Whatever happens, I thank you for initiating this separation as I would not have woken up to the reality otherwise and taken the necessary measures. I will be a better human being as a result of it all.
I have credit on my Skype account - you're welcome to call me if you wish and if it's an opportune time for you; some of this is difficult to articulate using the written word. You have my business card.
best,
GH31
She did call me at work and we had a short chat. She was upset as it was her birthday yesterday and she had had a bad day. I asked her what she ended up doing but she didn't want to discuss it and I didn't push her. She did want to say that she really loved the birthday card that I had bought her. I saw it when I was in England two weeks ago for an interview and knew that she would love it so I bought it anyway. It really was beautiful and an exact match to her taste. Then, when she visited last weekend I gave it to her to open on the day.
She said that she had received my email but was concerned that there were no words of affection in there and that that is what she wanted to hear. So I told her "my feelings haven't changed since the first day I laid eyes on you" and that "nothing would give me greater joy than to have my wife back in my life" and, "in spite of all that has happened your still my special little girl" etc. I also empathised with her reticence and tentativeness and concern for MOTS stuff.
So, she has said that she will move all of her stuff back in on April 14 (this coming Monday) and that we should go on a trip to the Baltic states.
What can I say? I am very encouraged by the direction of things though am still very cautious. I understand and accept that in spite of the good direction, it may be a false start. She did say 4 weeks ago that she would come back on April 4, so I am still unsure - but evidence seems to be coming up to indicate that she means business.
Also, I am not sure what this situation with OM is and I didn't ask.
I want to jump up and down with excitement though I do not think that this is the time. I think I will feel both relief and joy once the crisis stage of this odyssey is over but I think relief will probably win the day.
Eventually I hope to be able to post a success story here on the board but that will be a long way off, if in fact it does occur. I hope all of you are hanging in there and continuing to DB. It's really hard work but I can't imagine NOT doing whatever it takes to keep our marriages together.
Take care,
GH31
GH,
What a nice and sensible post to read. Give her the benfit of the doubt. Enjoy it when she moves back and remember not to revert to old habits - it's very easy to do; my H and I have to constantly keep a check on that. And be aware that it is very common for YOU to have doubts about it all once she comes back - it was once I felt my M was safe again that I had to deal with a whole rush of negative feelings about my H and what he had put me through - I just wasn't expecting that.
Keep us updated.
Sounds great GH31. I'm a little wary since she's got a kind of "you go first" attitude. The scary thing is she's essentially saying she relies on you to basically make her happy.
That being said, the first step is to actually have her back and committed to the marriage. You can't keep playing LRT and maybe shouldn't have before. She probably craves loving words and words of affirmation. There is no harm in giving them. You should show you love her.
There is one thing I would mention. I think it's okay to express your own reservations. You reassured her. I think it's fair that she reassure you. I'd essentially parrot what she wrote to you..."I need to know that you are committed to work on our future together. That means, if we have difficulties in the marriage (as everyone does), that you intend to stick it out and work to make it better. And that you intend to discontinue contact with OM."
If she can't commit to this stuff, then it might be a waste of a trip.
Me
Hi Just_Me,
Thanks for your advice. Not sure what to do about my situation now. I found out today by snooping who the OM is, his address, phone number and also that my W and he are going on a weekend getaway elsewhere in Europe. She arrives back in the UK the day before April 14, the day she said she's coming home on.
Now I feel nothing but contempt and disgust for her. I have no idea what to do but many many thoughts are going through my mind. I have no kids with her - I don't know whether to just cut lose and start again. I am still relatively young at 31 and have time. Do I call her on this if and when she comes home, or do I ask her if she is 100% about us too beforehand? She just cannot seem to quit either me or him.
I am really at the end of my rope here. Unbelieveable. Please help.
She is the one pushing the "you better be 100% committed to this" and reconciliation. I would suggest that you call her on it. She is talking out of both sides of her mouth. You don't have to be mean about it..just practical. "W, I'm committed to us, but I honestly don't believe that you're ready. I want you to be sure you want to work on our marriage, and that includes breaking things off with OM, before coming back here." I think breaking things off with OM involves not going on this vacation with him. Do you honestly think she's ready for a R with you immediately after coming back from vacation with him? I can't imagine that this is strictly a plutonic thing. Guys don't usually keep taking women on vacation if they aren't putting out.
Hi Just_Me,
Thanks for your input. I have the guys number and she will be at the house alone. She has no idea that I know the number and no idea that I know the guy's name.
Do I call her on that number and call her on it? She has actually paid for it on her credit card - so it looks like it was her idea. I am 100% sure that this has been a PA, as when we spoke about things last I spoke assuming that it was - and she didn't deny it.
Also Just_Me, Dr. Harley has spoken on his site about people involved in affairs wanting to run off to the Carribean to say their last goodbyes etc. Really am at my wit's end today unfortunately - just when I thought it was all coming together.
She actually emailed me a few hours ago about arranging another trip for next week. This is all twisted, twisted, twisted.
Seems like she is still in fantasy land. Drop the hammer, she needs to make a decision. I like the post from Just me. I would flat out call her on it. I would say something to the effect of bottom line either you are in or you are out, you aren't going to have two lovers in your life.
I would not give a timeline because that is a decision for you and it will probably change but I agree she is not ready, and frankly given what you know you are not ready. You need to have time to come to terms with her unfaithfulness and decide if you want to forgive and move forward or forgive and move on.
Don't put yourself through the pain, she needs to show you commitment, not tell you about it!
I wish you well, the recovery road is tough, her state of mind does not appear to be where it needs to be. Save yourself more pain by having her come home and hurt you more. Work it out for yourself and let her know you don't want her back right now. You are going to take some time and decide if you want her back in the future.
Take the power away! My reasoning is you don't have kids and you can make a clean break. I am not saying you should, but take some time and figure it out.
I wish you well!
Do I call her on that number and call her on it?
I think if you do that you immediately set a bad tone. She'll be defensive from the get go. If you can't reach her at a more convenient place or time, I'd just send her a short e-mail. I know it's not the best, but she communicates that way, and you can avoid letting your emotions get in the way. Look at it like a woman you are dating that's two timing you.
"W, I know you are going on vacation again with OM, right before you intend to come back here. Under these circumstances, I think it's best if you don't come back when you intend to. My understanding was that we were going to commit 100% to this marriage, and I feel you aren't on board with that. How could you be when you are still having this relationship with OM? It's my hope that we could be together again, but I don't think now is the time."
Hi Just_Me,
I am very much in two minds about whether to do this. Even by telling her that I know about the vacation, I will disclose the fact that I have been snooping. She will have no idea how I got the information (she's in a different country and has never told me anything about OM other than his nationality). She'll probably feel very, very awkward.
I take full responsibility for this breakup, and if this A did in fact begin after the separation then fair enough, but I don't see how this can work if she plans to come back to me less than 24 hours after being with OM. This just doesn't make sense - she is definitely in a chemically altered state.
I am sure that there will be more lies.
GH,
Do you want to live with this deceit? Personally I would call her on it. If your M is to have a chance she should be completely open and transparent. Maybe you shouldn't start off with telling her you know about the weekend - maybe you could just ask her to begin with if she has ceased contact with OM and what she intends to be doing until she comes back to you. You haven't got long to stop her going with OM if that is what you intend to do.
How exactly did you find out all these details? do you know how long ago this weekend jaunt was booked? Maybe she is going on the trip in order to tell him the bad news and she didn't want to tell you as she though that it would upset you. Going into this with secrets on one side and snooping on the other doesn't feel right to me. Piecing a M back together is hard work even when both parties are fully committed - your W needs to understand that.
I read your posts put I don't usually post to you. But from what I read, it is possible that she plans to end it with OM. She may have been as we say, "hedging her bets". She may have sent you the e-mail asking if you are 100% committed b/c she wants to make sure before she lets go of OM. Don't know if that is a good or a bad thing, it could mean that if you had said you weren't committed she would keep ahold of OM as a back up plan. Again, I am making a lot of assumptions so you don't need to listen to me! It just seems maybe she was getting up the courage to end it w/OM and wanted to make sure you were going to be around for her if she did.......
GH31,
This isn't about fault for the affair or when it started. I wasn't even suggesting punitive measures. Maybe I gave a fair amount of my own bias in this, but my primary concern was what is best for you, not necessarily what impact it may have on her.
You should decide this on your own. It's a fairly big step to suddenly put yourself together again after this long. Any turmoil (and I think OM contact which undoubtedly will occur would probably create turmoil), and she could be out the door again. That doesn't mean you can't try it and see if you can work through this, if you feel emotionally prepared for continued infidelity, lies, and trust issues. And it's possible to be prepared, if you are of the mind that you will be fine if she leaves again. You are prepared to ask her to go if she cheats on you. But, if you aren't ready to share her, and you aren't ready for her lies and double standards, then I'd suggest drawing a line in the sand. I get the sense that you doing the LRT (and maybe the dating) is what brought her around...but that she isn't completely convinced that she should have opened her mouth and suggested getting back together. Would it be okay by you if she left again? If so, ignore the OM, act as if this isn't happening, and give it a chance. Otherwise, I'd call her on it. Do you know for sure that she's doing the vacation with OM?
Hi Just_Me,
I do know with 100% certainty that she has booked a flight for the two of them to Spain. I know this because I have access to her flight account. By looking at the passenger names I identified OM and by using the phone book (he has a very unusual name that you wouldn't find in the UK) I found his address and phone number. In other words irrefutable evidence.
It wouldn't really be OK by me if she left again. I really want this marriage to work because I believe in marriage and I love her - and I made her life very unpleasant, but I know that without honesty and no further contact with OM - reconciliation cannot be achieved. If we got back together she would need to come to Germany so physical separation between her and OM would be created. However, there is nothing to stop her taking off again at the first sign of trouble. I will have my work cut out for me because this A will not have died a natural death.
Tough one. Would really appreciate your thoughts on this. At the moment I have a very good mind to simply go back to Australia and implement Dr. Harley's Plan B. I also am weighing up whether or not to tell her father to whom I am close, and to whom she hasn't spoken for nearly 2 months. She is also close to him but has not been able to face him and speak to him since this began.
thanks,
GH31
Hi Saffie,
I have to say, you guys are awesome and I really appreciate your input. You know now how I found out about this. I have access to her internet ID with the airline she uses and was actually checking to see if she had booked her flight to come back to Germany.
Instead I saw that she had booked this flight for 2 people and that's how I found out. It looks like she has paid for it with her own money - maybe a parting gift, maybe desparation because she can't let go. But, she has lied to me and when she was here last weekend she said she would be back this weekend "at the latest". OM works for a discount airline and she is therefore able to get very cheap flights all over Europe. She loves travelling which is why she has been using these benefits with reckless abandon. She did mention to me in her phonecall yesterday that she "won't be able to get cheap flights as of next week" when referring to this trip to the Baltics that she wants to do.
No idea what her game is. Saffie, I know that there is nothing I can do to stop her doing whatever she is doing. She left me on 28th January and has been in touch with me only through email. She can call me but I can't call her (until now) and she has been to visit me here twice.
She has kept her distance for a reason - to keep this double life necessary for the propogation of the A secret from me and it seems, most of her family. Her cousin lives less than 40 minutes away from where she is in the UK and yet she hasn't paid her a visit the entire time she has been there because she "doesn't want to have to answer questions about us". That's the same reason she hasn't been in touch with her Dad.
Dr. Harley is absolutely correct when he says people in affairs show addictive behaviour. It actually produces a chemically altered state.
Thanks so much for your help guys. Any further help would be much welcomed.
GH31,
I've been dancing around with my advice, trying to be objective. I'm going to be a straightshooter and tell you what I would do. Is it the DB thing to do? I don't know. Here's what I would do...
1) I would quit leaving so much to guesswork. You and your W are supposedly getting back together, at least in her words, so I would think that communication shouldn't be a problem. So I would flat out tell her that you saw she had a trip to Spain planned with OM and you want to know what that's about.
Then let her talk. Put her words through a filter and see if it's believable. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't pay for someone's plane ticket if I intended to dump them while on vacation. Personally, my opinion is she's trying to pick which one of you to be with. If it were me, I can tell you that I'd make the decision easier on her by letting her know in no uncertain terms that I wasn't going to be second fiddle.
2) If the affair continued, I'd kick her to the curb and then do whatever I wanted, including moving back to Australia if that's what I felt like doing.
3) I wouldn't get her family involved. It makes reconciliation much harder. Once that cat's out of the bag, there is kind of a reluctance on the part of the WAW to acknowledge that they may be making a mistake. Right now she can return without any egg on her face.
Firstly, from what you have posted I think that there could be room for error. Maybe she is going to Spain with someone else - someone who is just a friend. Also, even if you saw the transaction for the flights going through her account, it may well be she made the payment and whoever is travelling with her gave her cash back. I think that MAYBE she can explain these things away and if you go in in an accusing manor and then she explains them away you will have made a backwards step in trust and reconciliation. Especially as you say anger has been a problem for you in the past.
Having said that, it strikes me as you found out about the trip in a roundabout way - you were checking about her flight to come and see you. I wouldn't class that as snooping - unless of course you know she would be upset that you looked at her flight account. Because of that I think you should be straight with her about knowing about the trip and just come clean and say seeing these other flights made you feel insecure and could she just tell you what was happening. No more, no less. Let her explain herself - it could all be something of nothing OR it could be that she is seeing OM. Either way I think you would hopefully find out. What I personally don't think you should do is go in there all guns blazing until you are 100% sure of all the facts.
GH31,
Saffie is in the UK. Ask her to swing round and spy on your wife.
Just kidding. I like Saffie's "no guns blazing" approach. I might have phrased it less politely, but I did mean to say that you'd give her a chance to explain.
Heehee Just_Me - not a bad idea.....hmmm...I wonder where she is.....
Apologies for the bad spelling in my above post!!! Wrote manor when I meant manner - oops!!!
Also, I meant to say I wouldn't go stirring things with her family just yet - get your facts straight first.
Hi Saffie,
I know that the guy she's going to Spain with is OM because she told me his nationality and the guy's name is definitely from that country. He shares the surname with someone else that he can get cheap flights for - when she came to see me last week I was with her when she logged into her airline account and memorized her user ID and password. I saw everything that I needed to. She will be upset that I looked at it but it's a password I could easily have guessed.
So yes, I am left in no doubt. The thing I don't get is that she has made all of these overtures to come back i.e. moving things back into the apartment. I asked her if she had told OM about moving her stuff back and she said "no, not yet". I know that OM has found her in doubt about them and she didn't want to talk to him about it. It seems to have all the characteristics of an affair i.e. deception on both sides.
I think the best thing to do is to wait it out. If and when she comes I will provide a safe and non-judgmental environment for her to talk and then I will know whether she is lying. I'll have to think of another course of action by then, but if she vacillates further then I will go back to Australia and lovingly ask for a cessation of all contact until she knows. The situation is that I have very little contact with her anyway other than email so I don't know what other options are available. I could call her on OM's number now that I have it but that would also make her extremely defensive and take me further from my goal. Ooooh the anger!
Really appreciate your help guys. Do give me more tips if you have them.
OK - so you shouldn't have been looking at her flight details. Telling her you were is going to get her upset.
I know it is very hard - I would want to call her on this so badly. Having said that, my head tells me that if you want this to work you should keep quiet about this knowledge, and then when she comes back to you sit on it until she starts to open up about everything. Then see what she says. It's pretty easy to ask someone casually if they had a good weekend and what did they get up to. If she doesn't give you a straight answer immediately I would just bide your time and let her relax and have a chance to open up. It can take quite a while before a returning wayward spouse feels comfortable enough to open up about things. They often fear that opening up will just drive a greater wedge between you. They find it hard to understand that sometimes, even though the knowledge hurts, you just need to know things so you feel the returing spouse is being open and honest. The amount of detail required by the cheated on spouse is personal and varies in each situation. I needed to know everything and once my H realised the importance of that he did open up completely. It can take time though.
On a more practical note, if there is a chance she has been intimate with OM you do need to protect yourself physically - no unprotected sex and she should go and get STD tested- I consider that standard practice. It's one thing to play around with your emotions; it is another thing entirely to play around with your life.
Hey Saffie,
So nice of you to be looking out for me. I know that they have had a sexual relationship. I mentioned casually when she was here that "we will both now need to accept that we have had other sexual partners" and she agreed - so she tacitly admitted to having a PA. I had a one night stand with a girl shortly after discovering OM - I was so hurt and angry and 100% convinced that my M was over that I felt I had nothing to lose and literally made myself "move on". Now I deeply regret it which is why I was honest with her.
I agree that an STD test will be necessary for mutual assurance. I was protected but I would do it simply to assure her and I would want at least one month to pass before we resumed a physical relationship (that would be tough for me but I can manage it). No point in playing Russian Roulette with one's life.
On the other hand, it does seem that she is edging back into the M but I have no expectations and accept it could be a false start. The only reason I am hanging in there with this M is that I know I'm getting what I deserved with the way I treated her. It's the lingering emotional attachment to OM that I will be most concerned about in the event of a reconciliation - not the fact that she has fooled around during the separation. The lingering attachment as you know can prevent a successful reconciliation.
It just bothers me so much that she is taking this man on a weekend getaway all the while talking reconciliation, future plans, me taking her surname into mine (she gave me the forms), buying the apartment that her Dad lives in so he always has a place to live, another holiday next week to the Baltics. We even went out last weekend to choose a birthday gift for her. Madness. In your experience can letting go of OP be a process rather than an event? This behaviour just seems so jumbled and messed up - perhaps typical of a WAS. I actually have great compassion for her and OM, mixed in with the anger and betrayal.
I don't want to disclose to her that I have these access details as I want to be able to continue snooping (as twisted as that sounds). The reason is that I want to know how honest she is being with me.
You are very very generous is sharing your experience and the insights that you've gleaned Saffie. I have to say this is so much appreciated.
GH,
You do know that with the HIV testing you get tested now and in 6 months time don't you? You really need to use barrier protection for that 6 month period and until the 6 month test results are back - for both of your sakes.
Regarding withdrawl from the OM - I think it varies from one situation to another. Once she comes back to you personally I would say there needs to be NO contact with OM at all. She may suffer withdrawl symptoms after that but from what I have seen with other people's sitchs, the no contact is VERY important; otherwise they get sucked back in. She is probably using this weekend to break the news to him. I think you can spend a lot of time second guessing her but in the end you have to watch how she behaves.
I was very lucky in my sitch that once my H said it was over it was, (as far as I know), and there was no contact with OW, I never snooped before he told me about the A and I didn't afterwards. To be honest, although I thought about it a couple of times, I did decide that I had to take what my H was saying in good faith unless something really felt wrong to me. He really hasn't done anything since that has made me feel that way. I have got terribly insecure at times and he has always talked it through with me. At some, point I belive, you have to take a leap of faith. My C told me that after what has happened I would be so finely tuned to any changes that I would spot cheating in the future; I believe him - I have to- I would go mad otherwise.
I had half expected my H to take strogly against OW when he recommitted. I wanted him to say that he realised what a manipulative b!tch she was.... yadda, yadda, yadda. When that didn't happen I was really hurt. Don't get me wrong, he was very supportive of me and put lots of effort into getting the M back on track, but I REALLY NEEDED him to diss the OW. It actually happened almost a year after I found out about the A. One day, out of the blue, he apologised once again and talked about the OW and what he felt about her now. It was music to my ears and all the better for not having been prompted by me. (OW was extremely manipulative. My H is Chief Exec of his Co and she wanted the position and cash - not really the man). It was very hard for my H to realise that she didn't really want HIM - that really hurt. It takes time for the shine to go, is what I am trying to say-even when their head tells them they are doing the right thing by committing back to the M.
Your W sounds like she is saying the right things. I know this weekend trip is painful, but until you know more I would really give her the benefit of the doubt - otherwise I would think you will always be wondering what if? It sounds as though you have a real chance at making this work. Realising your own mistakes and rectifying them is an excellent position to be in. I did lots of things 'wrong' in my M, and I feel bad about the things I did, but I also know why the M went south and so I was able to change. Knowing what went wrong makes me feel more secure as I have been able to change and sort things out - if I hadn't known why I would always be waiting for the other shoe to drop.
At some point you will have to stop snooping and trust. It will happen. Until then be very careful if you snoop - if she is genuine and she finds out it will cause friction. Play it by ear.
it is a pleasure to 'chat' to you
and I will keep my fingers crossed it goes ok.
Hi Saffie,
Thanks very much for the tips and I will be mindful of all of them. I can't believe the situations that we find ourselves in here but there's no point in being miserable about it. We simply must do whatever we have to save our marriages and ourselves, if we really care that much about doing it. Nathan's and David's posts in the "Successful Men" section I have found very helpful and I read through them regularly.
I ultimately just have to wait for Time to flush the truth out.
best,
GH31
Hi again Saffie, quick question for you.
Did your H suffer through a withdrawal period after deciding to end his A?
thanks,
GH31
GH,
It wasn't obvious to me that he did but I am sure he missed her. My H is quite unusual in that once he makes a decision he never considers the 'what if's' - he says there's no point. My eldest D is exactly the same. I guess it's just the way they work. I do think my H was ready to end the A when he told me about it. He did go and say goodbye to her, (perhaps this is like your W's weekend away), and I found that very hard. In the weeks following though, we discovered all sorts of things about OW. She was a member of my H's staff, and other staff opened up to my H once she had gone; it became apparent she had used the A with my H in her favour when dealing with other staff. My H was quite shocked by what he learned; I on the other hand couldn't believe he had been quite so naieve. What he discovered helped him get over her.
Right then,
An update. W called me this morning on my mobile to say that she is not going to come home today afterall as she is very tired from a late night (i.e. her flight with from Spain with OM got in at about midnight). I asked about her weekend and she simply said it was "good". I hate this and I am angry but I am going to be calm for now. She did say that she wants us to go on a short trip to the Baltics for 4 nights as she wants to "chill out". She has been living off her credit card and "chilling out" with OM for the last 7 weeks - I am angry with her at the moment so I am not in the mood for writing nice things about her.
W sent me an email a short while ago that she is going to come home on Wednesday instead as she has an assignment to work on. She said also "I hope that's okay..". Frankly, I do not believe her - I am sure it's simply an excuse for something else. She has moved the goalposts so many times now that I do not believe anything. I think she will come home but I don't know when. So far during this DB odyssey she has done everything she said she would do but always later than when she originally said. She really is in the habit of moving those goalposts around the field continually. PATIENCE I know...
She has booked my flight to go the Baltics, but hasn't booked one for herself yet and neither has she booked a flight to come back to Germany.
On the advise of Just_Me I asked her when she called if she too was 100% committed to our marriage thereby parrotting what she asked me last week. She replied "I am, yes, but there will be a transition period..." to which I agreed. Quite what she means by "transition period" I don't know but I didn't push it. It's not the fact that there will be a transition period that concerns me - I know that all too well - but I want to know what one is as W defines it. If she wants to keep in contact with OM then I am not interested in having her back - not until that is taken care of.
Just venting here guys, want to get this vitriol out of my system before I say something I regret to someone. I know it looks like I am getting a good shot at rescuing this M, and that these things are good problems to have, but I don't like her messing me around like this and wilfully hiding stuff. She said she would be home this weekend and instead she flies OM to Spain. For those of you new to my sitch I am able to see which flights she has booked and with whom, without her knowing. The threshold of my patience is drawing ever closer I think...
best,
GH31
Translation "Transition period" I am not a 100% committed, but I many be 100% committed to trying. I do not know what else to say. I read your posts, I see you very much wanting your wife back and yet I am not sure if your wife is coming home.
If she doesn't book or come home on Wednesday I think it is time to re evaluate, because obiviously she just keeps you hanging. I think if I were you and she blows Wednesday off, I may write, you don't need to tell me anything more about what you are doing or where you are going, I am tired of words. If you want us to have a relationship prove it through actions, not words in an email.
My prayers to you!
Hi TheGoodFight,
Thanks for looking out for me. I just got another email from her saying that she had booked the first two nights of our accommodation. There are another two nights where we will be staying in another city so that also needs to be taken care of.
I have deliberately let her take the initiative on arranging this trip - I am of the opinion that if it's she that's doing the legwork, that there is a greater chance of her actually following through. I am still encouraged by everthing but anxious to see her actually follow through. I know she must be having a very hard time in her mind.
I just recieved DR in the mail today and am already getting stuck in. Have already read through the 5LL and DB several times.
Prayers are with you too. This is a hard, hard journey but as Churchill said, "if you're going through Hell, keep going!".
best,
GH31
GH,
Keep up the good work. I just hope you don't get any more surprises before she comes home.
Hi Saffie and everyone else who has been looking out for me on these boards,
I am pleased to tell you that my wife did come home on Wednesday 16.04.2008 as she said she would. We had been separated a total of 80 days. I met her at the airport and put her travel pass in a dark red card for her (her favourite colour) and met her, carrying the rest of her things. Gifts is her Love Language so I also had a big spread of helium balloons and birthday presents waiting for her at home. However, she did look very sad and ashen white as she had spent the previous couple of days breaking up with OM. She only had 30 minutes sleep the night before she came back. During her birthday last week she was trying to explain to him that she had been "having doubts" about her decision to leave our M.
Now, I am elated about these developments but I am also very very cautious. She is also. In fact, I expect it to take many many more months to really be out of the woods and a sexual relationship at the moment is, I think, out of the question. She is sad to have broken OM's heart as he is a "very good person", "did everything right" and "deserves to be happy". He has also said that he "feels foolish", that "GH31 is never going to change" and that "you should give it more time". OM ripped up the birthday card that W had given him and was very, very upset. I feel for him, but I am also very paranoid that W will up and leave again (not that I am acting as if she would) and that W still has contact.
I have gently suggested that no good can come of any contact - for anyone involved. She did ask me to leave the room so she could write a "confidential email" to "offer him words of comfort" as he felt the last email W sent was "cold". It really, really bothered me that she wanted to send him an email and I gently said that for me it was like being slaughtered all over again but that I understood her wish and compassion in offering comforting words. It is fine for me and W to talk about OM but for her to send emails or have any contact is like a knife in the heart all over again.
She is sad, sleepy and very wary of me. I accept this and have mentioned that I respect her courage in coming back, and the fact that she decided to sacrifice her independent life.
We have not made any formal announcement to family in Australia and neither are we wearing our wedding rings yet. We went out the night she got back and I took her out for cocktails and pool. Alcohol is, as you know, a social lubricant so we ended up speaking about everything relating to OM. I have determined that what he offered that I did not was "kindness, generosity, selflessness and giving her compliments and affection all the time". I have always been reluctant to tell my wife how wonderful I think she is as I thought it would make me less of a man. How dumb can a man like me be? Really? Also, whenever I am not with her I am concerned she is calling or texting OM, even if I have no reason to suspect. These emotions I am told will take a while to subside and I have also mentioned to W that I'm sure it'll take a while for her to really trust me again. To trust that my selfishness, serpent tongue, anger and contempt really are things of the past. They are as far as I am concerned but I understand and accept that it will take some time for that to change. Honestly, I am very concerned about things unravelling again but will continue to DB my butt off until the end of days. At the moment I am giving her nothing but unconditional love and friendship.
So far I have been able to caress her head every night so that she can sleep and this morning I even caressed her bare back for 1 hour. Naturally I want to see the positive things continue. Baby steps. I am going to hang around here for a while before moving into piecing as I can sense that things are still very, very delicate. She is reluctant to talk about future plans like she has been during the last few visits and I expect that she will need time to grieve. My biggest concern is any more contact with OM although W has said that that will have to stop in order for our R to work.
In spite of the enormity of the task ahead and the fact that I am nothing like out of the woods, these are great problems to have compared to where I was a month and a half ago.
I sincerely thank all of you for looking out for me thus far and I am going to be hanging out here in Newcomers for a while yet.
all the best,
GH31
GH
Thank you so much for updating us. You sound as though you know what you need to do in order for things to work out for you both and you are taking a sensible approach.
I imagine your W is carrying a lot of guilt around at the moment for the OM. I know my H felt guilt about OW. She needs to get through this and you sound very supportive. Don't bad mouth OM as that will make her leap to his defense - better if she has contact that he is not complementary about you but you show your W you are the bigger person and can rise above it. Show your W by your actions that you have changed. She is with you and that is a good portion of the battle.
I will keep checking back - but in the mean time - congratulations, and I am glad she has talked to you about OM. Now you can begin to heal.
Well, my wonderful wife has been with back with me now for 6 days. We are currently on holiday in Europe and heading home tomorrow. It has been fantastic to have her back and at times very tough because she is still getting over OM and extremely wary of me. I will not be getting any of my needs met for some time I don't think.
She said she is "just waiting" for me to have an angry outburst or do something thoroughly selfish and objectionable. We went into a restaurant yesterday and I started singing out loud to a tune that was playing, something that she didn't like, and she then said that brought all of the "old feelings" back from the few days before she left. So, in the truest sense of DBing that does not work, so I will NOT be doing that again.
Today has been better. Took her for a few games of pool, lunch and caressed her head for about one and a half hours this afternoon so she could relax. She is very reserved and not showing any affection - she is still really hurting so I am not going to expect any. Given the way I have treated her she is perfectly entitled to feel resentful and cautious towards me. We have both agreed that we are going to be friends first and reconnect before entertaining the idea of anything else.
In all I am pleased with the direction of things. We are able to be affectionate, lean on each other etc, but we are not out of the woods and won't be for a while. I confided in her that I feel like I am walking on eggshells and that my every move is being scrutinised but, that's the way it has to be for now. Once she is sufficiently over OM which I am told can take some time, I will be filling up that love bank account of hers as quick as I possibly can.
Take care all of you and keep DBing. Focus on the baby steps in the right direction.
love,
GH31
Thanks for the update GH.
Just got back from holiday and this is the 8th day that W has been back. Things have taken a very bad turn for the worse and W is now saying that she wants more "time apart" to "reflect". She told me in the airport last night that she "just wants us to be friends for now". It has now been 3 months since all of this began and I am at the end of my rope.
When she asked me the same question last week, I asked her if she too was 100% to working on our future together and she said "yes, but there would be a transition period". She has had a surge of hurt and resentment since she came back and has said that it is "too much, too soon" and that she "isn't ready ready to live me again yet". She is also saying she might go back to stay with OM "for a while" in England and also confessed to me that she still has stuff at his house that she would need to go and collect "at some stage". They still have contact.
We have been sleeping together and she has been happy for me to caress/hold/massage her but she just cannot get past this resentment and hurt. At least not now, and she doesn't want to give it a chance. We have been sharing a bed and perhaps we got a little too far ahead of ourselves. She admits that she was hopelessly in love with me before and probably still is deep down, but that the hurt and resentment are getting in the way. Frankly I am crushed beyond belief, feeling betrayed, used and taken for a ride all over again. I paid for this holiday and she suggested it.
I frankly think that she is still vacillating between me and OM and that until one of us is out of the picture, she cannot decide - literally that she physiologically cannot. She either has to complete withdrawal or the A has to die a natural death before anything can begin again in earnest. If she is undergoing withdrawal then of course it is very easy to feel resentment, anger, hurt, depression, anxiety but I cannot see any way to effectively communicate this.
Going back to DBing 101, I think the first sign that things have progressed will be that she doesn't go again. I have a flight on Monday going back to Sydney which I am thinking of taking, and she is asking if I can ship all of her stuff back. Father-in-law lives in the home that we had and he would be very happy for me to stay again. Please help. I feel that I am in an even worse place than when I started DBing. We both agree that separation is very dangerous to a marriage.
best,
GH31
Firstly, she doesn't have to collect her things from OM - she can arrange to have it shipped. If she has ANY contact with him it is going to be harder to let go. If needs be YOU could go and get the stuff. She says she is 100% committed but she doesn't act like it.
Have you thought about having a word with the OM? Does he know the true state of play between you and your W?
Australia is a long way away, to me it feels to far if you are fighting for this M. Going on holidays etc isn't real life - your W is just oscillating and this is causing you much hurt. Do what will make you feel more comfortable. Don't get mad or angry as that will just make her think you haven't really changed, but do what is the best course of action for you. If you are meant to be together she will come back and follow you wherever you end up.
If my memory serves me right she hasn't told her family in England what is going on because she is ashamed - that indicates to me she knows it's wrong. Maybe it is time you went public with her behaviour.
I am so sorry she is doing this to you.
GH,
I thought this would probably happen. Know what she neatly did? Made you accept that things continue with OM. You went from saying you wouldn't have her back unless she was done, to letting her continue things with OM while she's with you. She's talking about how she doesn't trust you are different and taking attention away from the fact that SHE'S CHEATING ON YOU.
Yes, they have withdrawals, but I'll tell you what...withdrawals don't end if you keep do a little bit of what you are withdrawing from, like cigarettes...you can't quit by smoking one or two a day.
I thought she responded better to the guy that showed his strong side and wouldn't put up with that. She started talking about trying again when she felt she was losing you, and started backsliding when she had you and you were being more needy and accepting of her affair. Something to consider. If it were me, I'd tell her if she wasn't with you because she wants the marriage to work, that it would be better for her to go.
......and she sure got jealous when she thought you were moving on without her.......
What bothers me about the situation is the way it is all about her. She's waiting for you to act out. But what about you? Aren't you also waiting for her to act out, to leave again? And isn't that what she is doing? So, unprovoked by you, she is reverting to her bad behavior, all the while blaming you for the behavior that you stopped and apologized for. Seems unfair to me. I would not spend one cent shipping her stuff from place to place. She doesn't know who she wants to be with, where she wants to be, or what she wants to do. Doesn't this woman need to get a job and make some money? Can she afford to just bedhop across Europe endlessly? And, if that is what she does with her life, one would think she would at least enjoy it. She seems so miserable while she holidays with one man after another.
OK guys,
She has asked me to ship all of her stuff back to Australia as well, and that she is going to collect stuff off of OM. She says she needs to "tie up the loose ends" and see if OM really is "the one" but she "thinks not".
This to me is just twisted bullshit. She is totally infected and in a chemically altered state - totally incapable of making quality decisions and overcome with selfishness. She is hurting a lot of people including herself.
I have told her that I don't believe a thing but her "gut feeling" says that we are meant to be together and that she will come and join me and her Dad in Australia soon, but that now "isn't the time".
I think I have to detach and have no contact. Go to Dr. Harley's plan B. This vacillating will not be able to be stopped by her alone.
I am bleeding on the inside and will keep you informed.
You got that right. It's b.s. and not worth really considering what her "gut" is telling her. And GH31, she acts like this is solely her choice whether you are together or not. It isn't just her choice. I would make it reasonably clear to her that you have a say in this, and as it stands now, I'd make it clear that you won't have her. She needs to work just as hard to get you back as you work to win her back. This time she came back without so much as an apology or feeling bad.
What bothers me about the situation is the way it is all about her. She's waiting for you to act out. But what about you? Aren't you also waiting for her to act out, to leave again? And isn't that what she is doing? So, unprovoked by you, she is reverting to her bad behavior, all the while blaming you for the behavior that you stopped and apologized for. Seems unfair to me. I would not spend one cent shipping her stuff from place to place. She doesn't know who she wants to be with, where she wants to be, or what she wants to do. Doesn't this woman need to get a job and make some money? Can she afford to just bedhop across Europe endlessly? And, if that is what she does with her life, one would think she would at least enjoy it. She seems so miserable while she holidays with one man after another.
Ditto! How does she afford all this traveling?
I'd tell her to get a professional company to get her stuff packed and shipped and for her to go back with you or just forget it. She is stringing you along.
OK, the plot thickens...
This is Day 9 of "piecing" if you can call it that. Yesterday was much better - I caressed her head for an hour and a half on the couch and really relaxed her, then we went out and about in Berlin and for a few drinks.
Earlier in the day I said to her point blankly that our situation is "an affair dressed up as a separation" and that the vacillation she is undergoing is "textbook behaviour for people when they are having affairs". I also told her for the first time in all of this that her behaviour was "killing me".
When we went out later, she started talking about how I should go and take a job offer that I have in Munich as Sydney is far away. Then we were playing pool (again) and out came the old "we`re destined to be together", "it`s meant to be" blah blah blah. I was very cool about all of this and said "maybe we`re not" and told her that I have had enough and that I need to build a new life for myself to make me happy. I also told her I wanted her to be happy, however she found it. Then after pool we ended up kissing passionately and holding hands as we walked. She even tacitly admitted to still loving me. Only 24 hours earlier she had point blankly refused to take my hand and had said "I just cannot go there right now".
Well, this morning she woke up smiling and asked for a massage so I gave her one and then we ML for the first time in 3 months. She asked me not to ever give up on her but that she had to "find her own way back to me". All very nice and she had a great time but then afterwards it unleashed an entire torrent of negativity and I found her packing her bags. She said "I can`t be with anyone right now" and "I am very deathly afraid that you are going to disappoint me again". I also got "it just makes me want to run away from you". I simply validated her feelings and said I would feel the same way too in her situation. She said "Sydney would be the place to reconcile as I will have my family with me as a support". I gently added that if and when we reconciled there would be waves of negativity that would come and go, that they would need to be worked through, and that they would be less frequent with time.
She was meant to be going today and as expected, OM has arranged a very cheap flight for her again. I have managed to persuade her to stay an extra day though.
She says frequently "I don`t know what I am doing at the moment" and "I need more time to reflect". I replied that I understand but that I myslef am at the end of my rope of patience - it has been three months and I am hearing the same old refrain.
This whole thing is just a twisted, twisted game. I cannot believe it. She has never mentioned the D word - it`s always been me that has suggested it in the past, but I am just at a loss. She doesn`t want to let me go, but she won`t commit either and she has said "don`t go with other girls, what if I want to come back to you in the future?". I am at my wits end. I think I just have to detach and move on, all the while remaining open to reconciliation until I find someone else to share my life with, or she does.
I am so bitterly upset I cannot describe it. It looks like we have come a long way since February when I started DBing, certainly lots of baby steps - time together, intimacy and ML, getting on great together, but it looks like all of my work is about to be undone - as far as my marriage itself is concerned.
Experienced DBers, what is my W going through? Is it a MLC and an A all wrapped up into one? And then dressed up as a separation? Even her Dad seems to think she is having a MLC. She doesn`t want to talk to him because she hates the fact that she will be sounding "uncertain" as she is normally very "certain". All of this is in fact true.
My gut feeling is telling me that there is still hope for us yet as she doesn`t want to end the marriage and neither do I (at least not now) but I am finding this simply impossible right now. She really has been abducted by an alien being.
Experienced DBers, what is my W going through? Is it a MLC and an A all wrapped up into one? And then dressed up as a separation?
I wouldn't necessarily apply a label like MLC. I think a lot of her behavior is uncertainty related to the affair. Should I be with GH31 or OM? I think she wants both of you as potential back-up plans should the relationship with either one fail (I'm personally very pissed at OM for his butting his nose into your marriage. He's a loser, and should she decide to be with him, you are better off without her and he's welcome to her, since she'll eventually cheat on him). She tells you as much...."don't get involved with another girl, what if I want to come back?" Your answer to that is, "if I get involved with someone else, then there won't BE any coming back." Not that I recommend that you get involved. What she is doing isn't fair to you. I'd make sure that she's willing to actually commit before I'd open my door to her again.
MLC? Not likely. Immaturity? For sure! You have a little girl there who is not growing up. She has fantasies of Prince Charming and happily ever after. She got married and it wasn't happily ever after, so she has to look for a different Prince Charming. Who knows if and when she will come to the realization that life is not fate. Things are not 'meant to be'. That adults make choices and build their lives. You can't control everything, but you also don't swing in the wind waiting for life to show you what's meant to be. Unless she grows up, she is likely to keep repeating this behavior. There are examples of wives on this board with teenage children doing the same thing.
There are 2 Retrouvaille groups in Australia. If she drops OM completely, and goes to one of these weekends with you, she might learn something about marriage, love and commitment. See
http://www.helpourmarriage.org. for locations and dates. Your wife was not ready for marriage. She is still dating.
Sound to me like she is hedging her bets. It's ok for her to mess around but not you- what the fcuk??????
I liked everything that Sara said. I couldn't put my finger on it until she wrote it. Yep, she's living in a dream world (or in a movie), where "meant to be" actually means something.
This is the post I hoped I never had to write but here it is.
Time to vent:
W went back to the UK today and will be staying at OM`s house. He gets back from Ireland tomorrow night (Saturday) and then W is off to see a mutual friend of ours on Sunday. She said that she will be seeing him for half a day but I said that our "reconciliation" is a farce and that she will simply resume the A again. She insisted that she had already broken up with him but I wasn`t born yesterday - she said "I never said I am going to get back together with him GH31, I slept with you in the same bed for 5-6 days and we didn`t do anything sexual". She did break up with him last week and it was very hard on him - he was crushed so if she is going to do it all over again it would be very cruel of her. All of last night she was saying that we are "meant to be together", and that when we were packing up all of the boxes to be shipped back to our old home in Sydney in which her dad lives, that "it didn`t feel like the end of us".
I took her to the airport in Berlin to see her off and ended up being really upset with her, telling her that I felt cheated, betrayed, pissed and shat upon and stupid. I told her that "it`s not necessarily so that we are meant to be together" and that "I am building a new life for myself and my future wife, whoever that happens to be. I would prefer it to be you but I have no expectations, I just know that my own destiny is a happy one". She hates it when I talk of the future without her in it and when I talk about having a different woman as my wife in the future. What is so wrong is that we were chatting and she was talking about plans that we can do together in the future like buying a house in our Sydney neighbourhood, how the study would be etc. Go figure.
So, this is my own situation. I have a one way flight which leaves for Sydney on Monday 28th April 2008 - in three days time. I have told W that I am taking this flight and that I do not want any contact with her until she knows for certain that she 100% wants to recommit to M, or if she wants a divorce. She says often "I don`t believe in divorce" and she has always said that since I have known her, but I honestly think that she has no idea what she is doing at the moment and she even admits that. Then, last night she was imploring me not to go to Sydney and saying that going to Munich together is what we both want. I said that unless she could provide me with some hard evidence to back it up, I was not interested and that`s my decision. She said "but it`s so final" and I replied "I need final. We will both arrive at final at different times". She has also said "go and wait for me in Munich like a good husband should" and "I will feel very isolated with you not in Europe anymore". Whatever.
What I have been very careful not to do is to make her feel pressured. I simply said that these are my plans for me, and I know that you want to know them. I said not to feel compelled to run to me lest she lose me as an option for the future, or to prevent me from going back to her dad and spilling the beans on all the deranged things she has been doing. I insisted that if she comes back to me it`s because it is what SHE wants for her life.
So, she has promised to call me on Sunday at the latest to let me know of her final decision as by her own admission it is "crunch time". Apparently this will be her "golden word" or her "final word". And if she decides that our M is worth pursuing she wants to go to Munich on Wednesday where I have a job offer waiting. I would like to go too, but I would only want to go with her - not alone as I wouldn`t have the strength to take on a new city by myself in this situation. She will need the next working days (tomorrow is Saturday) to organise shipping her stuff, getting her mail redirected and seeing a mutual friend of ours. I have also got her to admit that she is still vacillating between me and OM. Even though she says "I am destined to hurt OM" she evidently seems like she still needs to do some depraved type of due diligence.
It`s strange. The last time I took her to the airport I was crushed but this time I feel somewhat sad though otherwise resigned and indifferent. I know that ultimately I will be happy but this chaos will take some time to end. It is stressing W out terribly and I have empathised with her very much. The most confrontational thing I have said to her is "how can a wonderfully smart, lovely, mild girl like you tolerate this level of chaos in her life?". She said "I don`t know" and she is right - this situation is simply too big for her. She has admitted to the need to take "a leap of faith" in order to trust me not to hurt her again. I know I have hurt her very much and have simply validated all of her concerns.
You guys might think I am nuts, but my intuition still tells me that we will work things out and get through all of this. We both agree that it will be virtually impossible for us to "quit each other". I am not ready to give up on my M yet - I am only hanging in there because I know that my horrible behaviour and selfishness got us in this situation. She stayed nine nights, we had lots of fun and we ML - that is an improvement on only staying for the day or on staying just 2 nights. I suppose we have come a long way in three months but that the rollercoaster ride must continue for now.
I hope I can report some more good news for you soon though I have even fewer expectations than before, and I have told W as much.
best to all of you,
GH31
I think you worded things great when you spoke to her. You didn't offer promises to her.
My concern is that she has this time frame in mind, Sunday, and she will pretty much lie to you again to keep you on the hook.
My suggestion for you, during these next few days, is to take her out of the picture for a minute. Now, without considering whether you are afraid of being in a new place, where do you want to be and what do you want to do with your life. Even if things were great with you two, I'm hoping that you wouldn't let her dictate your life for you. Yes, it's a joint thing, but at the moment it isn't. It's your life; I'd suggest you think about what you want out of it and make the most of it.
Good luck, GH31. I think you are right; this is not nearly done. Your statements about your life are important -- you will have a happy life whether she is in it or not.
I applaud you GH and await your next post.