The End or Just the Beginning? Part 3

Look at that, I come clean so they lock me up! Thats the man keeping you down right there. Lol! Perfect time to start a new thread I think.

At the encouragement of someone on this BB, I am throwing it out there. I have a hard time admitting this, but here goes:

Not really sure where to start this, but things have taken a dramatic turn. Hopefully, it will be a good turn, but it is a turn nonetheless.

A little bit of a confession since I haven�t told all on this site, and few know who I really am. This has made my efforts horrible slow and nile at best. This is much a confession to myself as it is to others on the BB. I�m an alcoholic, and I�ve been attending AA for a little while. My temp sponsor, a doc, has slowly weened me off the sauce since I was unwilling to do 28 days in an intake facility, and then got me hooked up with a great full time sponsor. He is a great sponsor, 20+ years sober, and carries a big load of sponsees. He is rather strict and I�m only on probation with him until I can show him certain things. I have to go along with what he thinks, or he won�t sponsor me.

So after hearing my story and my alcohol problem, he said first he wants me to call my W, and say what I want and ask for 90 days. He knows everything, and I wanted to fight it, but he said I had to learn to let go of control, and she probably won�t give it any way, but that I needed to let her know I was in AA, since she is a C�er, and see what happens. I think he wanted to see if I was willing to follow instruction, and realized this couldn't hurt things any worse since we were about wrapping this D up.

Call to W was rough. I explained exactly what I was doing, W suspected AA, but wasn�t sure. She vented a lot, A LOT! All I did was validate and didn�t say much for myself in return. She stated that she was going to be honest with me, and hoped that I could forgive her, but it was going to be the truth. I was prepared for the worst and actually got a lot better then what I thought.

W acknowledged the A, stated how horrible it was and what a huge mistake she had made, I actually got a real apology. She said she has been dating, but that nothing serious is going on and at this point I have no business to ask about it, and if she wants to continue this she will. Unfortunately, one of my rules is I have to let go of control and not ask for anything but the 90 day hold off for now. So all I could say in return is that is fine, all I�m asking for is 90 days to hold off on the D proceedings. She said she was fine with that.

She told me that the other day, she had made it sound much worse then it was and there was no sex or anything going on. She was hoping I would push things forward since she said she couldn�t do it. She did say she goes out clubbing with the girls, but doesn�t bring anyone home, and if she wants to go clubbing she can. I said that is fine.

She reassured me that she isn�t going to be doing anything physical with anyone, but she did say if she wants to date she will. However, she did say that she hasn�t been totally comfortable with that, and now with this she isn�t sure how she will feel or even want to. But under my strict orders I couldn�t ask for anything more then the 90 days at this point.

It didn�t hurt to hear her say she was dating and going clubbing with the girls, especially with the reassurances. I�m not really sure how much I can believe, but if she is going to take some faith in me, I�ll take some in her.

My new plan: especially since this was her largest complaint on the phone was that I�m not there, �I seem to just disappear.� She was talking about me going dark. She said it really upset her that when I come by I don�t come in and see her for a bit. Which is weird because I told her unless I�m invited in I didn�t feel comfortable. She said she had nothing to hide, and said she would appreciate it. So a little extra time seems to be one thing she is looking for.

I actually found an old thread on D�ed but not done, that discussed about the situation my W and I were in a few weeks ago. As I read I couldn�t believe how many months passed for this guy why his W was unwilling to move closer. But she was at the house all the time, I guess my few weeks didn�t compare and I need to learn some patience.

But all I did was validate, and kept my mouth shut as instructed. She said she wants to see me around more, and feel like I�m there and helping. So I need to step up to the plate and give this a real try. So Faith without Action is death. On both the drinking and W front.

She seemed excited, said she hasn�t seen me sober even a whole week, so if I can show 90 days she says she wants to see who I am and what we are about. She did specify, with a big wall up, that this doesn�t mean we are going to reconcile nor are reconciling right now, she wants to see what I am about. So it is up to me.

Hi Atlas -

If you haven't done so already, you might want to check out jabs first thread and second thread. He too had a drinking problem.

As in his case, it is all up to you. Dont let anything that gets you down make you turn to the drink again. The booze only makes it worse.

Thanks for sharing Atlas. I know what alcohol can do to a life. Congrats on making the decision to get sober. It must have been hard to write all this down and put it out here for everyone to read. I think that I would find it a bit cathartic though as well. The truth will set you free and all that. Stay strong. You're in my prayers.

Peace,
B

You are to be commended and are very brave Atlas. Coming to terms with your alcoholism is a big step, congratulations. It sounds like you have a good sponsor - listen to his advice, he's been there before and from the sounds of it has worked with many people over the years. Stick with the AA and as they say, take it one day at a time. You're in my thoughts.

Thanks for the support.

I'm taking things one day at a time, and it has worked out rather well. I actually found a doc who is in AA, and has overseen wheening me off for some time now, since I was unwilling to go any other route. I know, not the best way to start. But we've been hanging out a lot and seem to be going through the exact same issues. His fiance up and left a few years ago for school, and they are up and down, lots of resentment, but are trying to work things out. So I've made a good friend there.

I'm not worried about W, affecting the alcohol front. I didn't do this for her, I have been working on this for a while, and mostly started when I knew things would be over. However, since I have started all I can say is everything in my life is beginning to change, almost all for the good. She may support me, she may not, that is her choice.

Whatever happens, I'm just going to do a 180 in that I'm going to be nice to her as a friend, spend some time with her. If she likes what she sees, so be it, if not, so be it. There really is no point in us talking about our R, because there isn't one. I also wouldn't want her back because she thinks it could work. I would only want her back because she wants to be back. Everything else is just heading for another disaster. Which is not the type of life I'm willing to accept any longer.

Just as in AA, I'll take each day as it comes. God will provide me with the tools to handle any situation. No matter the outcome, it is the right outcome, so I'll have to accept it for what it is.

I might have already crossed an unforgivable line in her book, and if that is the case, then it is. Nothing I can do about that, but find and be me. She will have to handle her resentments and anger, I can't do that for her and I don't have control of that. But she is angry, and justifiably so. I've dealt with my issues with her over these months, and I'm not angry, I have forgiven her, I won't forget, but I won't hold a grudge, use it as a weapon or judge her.

I just have a calm, open feeling about life now and know that I will get through this and anything else that is thrown my way.

Atlas,
I think you are doing such a wonderful thing not just for yourself, but for your son. I am a daughter of an alcoholic father. Let me tell you from the childs point of view, your R with your son will forever be changed. It's up to you to make that for the better or for the worse. I am in no way judging you. I just want you to know that because of my Father's alcoholism, even though I loved him, I couldn't tolerate the drinking and therefore put up a wall. My Father wasn't always a drinker. It started in his early 30's. By the time he was 57, he had schirosis (sorry, didn't spell check) of the liver and had to be put on a transplant list. Only then did he quit drinking and smoking. Let me tell you that I didn't believe that he had quit because I was soooo used to him lying about it. But, he had. He had turned his life around, quit drinking and quit smoking around the age of 58. He died at 59. Not from the schirosis necessarily, but because his heart just couldn't take it anymore. I miss my Father everyday. It just passed 5 years since he died. Now, unfortunately, my brother is married to an alcoholic. They have 2 children 7 & 10 who have been suffering for years because of their Mother's affliction. Again, I am not judging. The reason I am telling you all this is because I want you to see how much more wonderful your life and the life of your son and possibly your W can be. It is a hard disease to overcome. But, I know countless people who have done it. It takes a lot of willpower and determination. You have everything to make this happen for. I wish you the best of luck on your journey into your new and better life. I pray that your M resolves itself for the better, either way. You can do this. I'm sorry if I have stepped on toes or in any way made you feel uncomfortable. I just wanted to share my story since it applies. Please keep us posted as to your progress in both areas. And, thank you for sharing such a personal issue so openly.

Hey atlas - Good for you.

I can't imagine how hard it is for you to tell people that. My FIL has 17 years clean and sober in April this year. My best friend will have 5 years in May. I could go on and on as i know so many people in the program. I've been to more meetings than i could count. It's so scary to hear what people go through. I'm glad you didn't have to hit the worst of the worst (losing son, job, home) before getting on the right track.

It's a long hard road, but if you are determined to succeed, you can do it. I'm really happy that you've decided to make that change in your life. It'll be the best possible thing for and your family. Really, it doesn't matter how you start out. I know they all say you just have to stop, but I say, so long as you reach that point, you are doing alright!

Kinda makes things a little different from Ws perspective. Hopefully now she'll get to see you be the best man you can be and fall in love with you all over again.

you are in my prayers. $\:\)$ ann

Thanks you guys, no one is stepping on any toes here. All the 2x4's or encouragement are warranted and needed.

W TM'ed me at lunch that she is at the doc's and that she has bleeding ulcers. Said she would let me know what was up, but now I can't get in touch with her. She has had ulcer problems before. Well after reading up on the net about it, I'm worried sick.

I called MIL, haven't called her in months, she knew nothing, so I didn't say anything, don't need two chickens with the heads cut off.

What should I do, I guess all I can do is wait for her to call. I don't know what hospital, doctor's office, nothing.

Hey Atlas,

I commend your brave first step in dealing with your problem. Best of luck to you, my friend. Who knows, maybe W will like the new sober Atlas! Ask her in 90 days.

As far as her medical condition, all you can do is wait. I am sure she is not ducking your calls, probably just receiving treatment. So relax and wait for her to call you with the full story.

Best,
--Chris

Dang those medical conditions scare ya. Turns out not to be nearly as bad as it is. She is going to head into work. She did call me her ex-husband on the phone. A new baby step, just in the wrong direction! Well I guess I am in some form, that sorta stung. Oh well, at least she is OK.

She did call only me, not even her mother, so I should look at it from that standpoint.

I do not know if I was an alcoholic or not but I used to drink every day. When you are single and go out it is fine but then when we got married it caused problems. Every evening when I got home I drunk a little and even we were romantic she always said "You say it because you are drunk not because you really love me" . She also did not like the fact that I smoked.

When we started to have problems my behavior while drunk changed from silly to angry which did not help. After my daughter became 2 years old and my wife went away. I saw one day my daughter looking funny at the Jack Daniels bottle and someone told me �she knows you are drunk�. That done it.

I stopped drinking and quit smoking more than a year ago. However my wife said it is too late and does not care much but I did it more for my daughter than for her.

Me 42
W 27
Married: 6 years
Together: 7 years
Daughter: 3 years
EA/PA began on Jan 07 (found out 12/29/07)

Right on! Thanks for sharing Lian!

I understand about the kids. My S calls it daddy's drink. Not a good thing in my book. I didn't do this for her, tried to keep it from my W, especially since she is a C'er, I just thought it would fog her thinking on us. But I had to do something for me and my S.

Ya know, I've been told plenty I'm an alcoholic. But what got to me was I couldn't stop. I couldn't stop buying and drinking once I started. That was how I knew.

Anyone is more then welcome to come share here. I'm sure there are many and few revealed, but remember your hidden on the BB essentially. So don't be bashful.

Glad to hear your Ws health scare was just that. $\:\)$ The XH thing might have just slipped out. She's been knowing it's heading that way and that's probably how she thinks of it. Not easy to hear, but good to know. Thinking of you as an XH rather than H also probably helped her justify her A. I think the fact that she called you first and only, is a good sign.

Just remember - when you feel like taking a drink, look at that precious little boy and ask yourself if it's worth it.

a little story that my FIL tells every year on his birthday at the meeting:

on the day after his 6th year, him and W#4 were fighting. He went to the liquor store, bought a bottle, and came home. he sat on the curb and cried. He threw his chip out into the street and it rolled away for a bit. H (his son) ran out and got the chip (cause he had been watching) and told him that he shouldn't throw away something so important. They both poured the bottle out and sat together... that was 11 years ago... remember why this is so very important. $\:\)$

Atlas,

she did call you first to let you know what her diagnosis was, if thats what you wanted then good. She still lets you know what is going on in her life first, that to me means she cares about you and your input. I dont know what to say from here but to me it shows you are a rock in her life!!

Hey Atlas

Nothing substantial to add to this thread apart to echo what several others have stated...your revelation / realisation is a big / brave step and you are to be commended for taking it.

I can offer the observation that since I stopped drinking things in all aspects of my life have looked up considerably and if you can stay strong over the early few weeks / months things do become very much easier.

Best - GFI

Atlas -

How are bud? Figured I would drop by and find out little about you as you had done on my thread. There are some really quality people on here that I have come across and you sure seem to fit that description. If you are not already, you should be tremendously proud of the new track you have put your life on by recognizing and responding apropriately to the grip that alcohol apparently has on you and all things about you.

Such a super showing of strength to give the alcohol a good swift kick from your life. I am removing alcohol from my life for an assortment of reasons and reading of your choosing to do the same is very inspiring.

Keep your eyes focused toward the proverbial finish line and act as a marathoner in this and in all pursuits.

Be well and let God carry the load, he's always willing.

Again, everyone here is great. I wish I had more time to respond to everyone and keep tabs. Life is just going so fast with meetings, my S, work, etc...

I feel great I have crossed 2 weeks totally sober yesterday, haha! Physically doing awesome, mentally I have a great PMA and not too many tempatations yet. But my phone list has grown so much, that at night I'm constantly talking or answering to someone, either helping or being helped. I've always been pretty spiritual with God, but that just continues to grow and offer a huge support.

Well W's saga continues. I got lectured the other day for not coming into her apartment when I drop S off. How this makes her feel unwanted, and how embarassing it is in front of her friends that I would treat her this way. She usually asks me, so if she doesn't I don't just barge in or anything. She said I shouldn't have to ask and that I'm welcome anytime. So I took the hint.

I got up a little earlier this morning and planned on spending a few minutes with her prior to work after bringing S down to her. Asked if I could come in, made a one step forward motion and about lost my foot. "No!" Then she physically guarded the doorway and looked behind her like she was looking at someone. All I said was "OK, well I guess I'll see you later."

No idea if someone is there, or what. Not even going to worry about it. I just find it interesting that I do as she asks then she slaps my hand for it.

Well she can play her games and do her thing. I'm not doing anything but being myself and if she wants to come around, so be it, if not, so be it.

2 Weeks.... for someone I've never met, you sure have earned my respect. Keep up the great PMA and the progress you've made!

Atlas,

Just a quick thought: could she be trying to push your buttons to get you to explode like the "old" Atlas would have done?

As you know, excellent on kicking the sauce. Keep it up. I'm looking forward to football season being over -- I'm like one of those rats hitting the button for heroin when a game's on $;\)$

I know for a while I was drinking more than I should have. More habit/boredom than anything and usually wouldn't even drink to a buzz or only a slight one. Anyway, once I stopped, I felt great and broke that habit of sitting, watching TV, drinking.

Hang in there, my man.

BD

Heim,

Honestly, I don't know what is real, what is not, any more. I'm not playing fair all the time, just being me.

As for getting me to explode, she can try all she wants, but after the medical condition this summer that was cleared up, I haven't lost my temper once. I can't even see myself getting to that point. I'm pretty mellow now, and since I'm typically a laugh it off, the cup is half full anyway, sorta guy, she can try, but it won't happen.

I'm bad I know, but I sent a text this morning to her saying "Why couldn't I come in this morning." No response! To funny. Cause she knows she is damned if she says why and damned if she makes something up. Shouldn't do that to her one day after her medical issue, but you know what, I'm not the cause of her guilt. Only she can make herself feel that way.

She needs to wake up and live like a real adult would.

Originally Posted By: Atlas

She needs to wake up and live like a real adult would.

This is kind of the bottom line here. Remember what you were saying the other day before the shocking twist. You are in control of your life, even more so now without the alcohol (and way to go on that btw), and you seemed pretty prepared to let go of her and move on if she was going to continue her childish ways. Don't forget that, that you know what you want, it's up to her to show that she's what you want.

Plus, she knows this time is being used for thinking and figuring things out, you'd think of all times now is when she'd be on her best behavior if she really wants to have some kind of future with you. If she can't act like an adult for 90 days, how can you expect it for the next X years? Let her show you who she really is, then you can make your decision.

Damn, Mako, I was just about to post something similar. So, ditto.

BD

Well said Mako,

Thanks for the redirect. The text was lame, childish and stupid, I just want to let her know I see her games. Which is even more idiotic because I was there when she said no to me, so she knows I know. Pot stirring! BAD! BAD Atlas!

Hey Atlas,

As SD says, here are my 2 cents (get what you pay for):

I don't think you need the stress of W right now. Given that you are working on your drinking problem right now, my advice is to avoid her like Jack Daniels. Your position may seem secure right now, but it is precarious.

Having said all that, please know we are all proud of you. One day at a time, friend.

Best,
Chris

She truly isn't my focus and I am far enough detached to not worry about it affecting my alcohol issues. Matter of fact, I was speaking with an AA friend that is dealing with what I am, he asked what I expect to see in the 90 days from her side.

I told him, that in all honesty, outside of maybe some hanging out and sleeping on my couch, she won't bring up any IC, MC, Retro, no steps whatsoever. I said I would be totally floored to see her do anything of the sort. He asked what I expected out of her then. To try and find a way to manipulate the situation for her advantage or money.

It's horrible to say this, but that is the way i see it. Everytime she needs a check, even if I legally owe it to her, she is peaches and cream, rest of the month, ah go eff yourself. Like I have said before, this is how her mother is towards W's father, I think they are just those type of people that aren't really happy unless they are miserable, or so they think.

Man the world just keeps shaking, I hope I don't drop it!

I'm sick as can be with S's cold now. Gotta love daycare. Well prior to hitting a meeting I TM'ed W to let her know that I probably wasn't going to work tomorrow and if she wanted me to take S to daycare, or if she wanted me to bring him to her in the morning.

She got right back and said she was feeling so much better and would watch him tonight so I could sleep. So I hit up a meeting and then made my way to W's house. She was wearing the PJ's I got her for X-mas and the necklace again is back on.

She asked me to hang for a bit, said I looked like I was picking up some good weight and looked good. I've been hitting the gym a lot lately. When I got ready to leave I initiated a hug, but not a couples hug, the one arm over the shoulder pat on the back, butt out and no push for some closeness. It really threw her, she was trying to pull me close and I just said "Your awesome! Keep being a great mom."

I got a why are you acting so diffrent. We haven't really spent any real time together since X-mas, and I was half tanked and basically handed her her gifts and walked out. All I said is it's been some time without booze and I just feel good. She then asked where she thought we were going with things, all I said is "It is up to God and his will."

She is back on her heels right now for sure. I just feel good about life, and don't need a drink, and what happens will happen. Just realizing I'm not the director and have to let go of control and do what I can with what I got.

Oh, I left this out last night. So W figures her ulcer and other medicial issues are attributable to me. Which I understand, but that still isn't ownership on her behalf.

She apologized again for the A last night and leaving the way she did. I tried to stop her, saying look, I'm not upset about I have forgiven you and your not in a condition to talk stressfull things, so leave it alone for now.

She then stated she realized something isn't right in her life, and she is seeing a psychologist. Already had one session. WOW! That blew me away, I can't beleive she is really working on herself. I told her I would support her in any way she needed with it and she was grateful.

After leaving some of the fog behind it is getting rather clear to see that W's love languages are quality time and words of affirmation. Not sure the order yet. I think those are tough ones to DB under because you can't really do LRT or semi-dark or anything with those.

I find if I'm around her, she seems to be cheerful usually and wants me to stay. So I'm going to take the lead on that and just see what happens.

She also asked if she could take S on a week long vacation to visit some family and recoup a little. But she was really nervous like I was going to say no and asked like a child asking daddy. I think she was pretty floored when I was like, that sounds like a lot of fun, I'm sure he would really enjoy that. You guys will have an awesome time. I didn't want to say why yes of course, like I was the gatekeeper or something. I wanted to let her know that she can make decisions and follow through with them.

Sounds like things are moving in the right direction for you. It's great to hear you feeling so strong. Can't wait to see how things progress.

Heya Atlas,

Two weeks down, brother! I hope it continues to go so well.

WRT W, I bet she is liking what she is seeing. Great news about the psychologist. Just stay firm about the 90 days then assess her after that period.

Best,
--Chris

Poor W had a really bad night at work. Ended up having to do some emergency crises C'ing. I told her not to worry that I would make arrangements with S and I. Sent her a nice TM just saying, Don't worry about S, I'll make arrangements, you do what you do best.

When she arrived late tonight, she asked how I was doing with AA, told her great. Having a good time with sober people. She initiated a big hug and told me she was so proud of me. Nice to feel and hear that for sure.

One thing that is weird, is that I have been warned to not pursue anything with women, that becoming sober my libido would fly through the roof and that I'm just confused right now. I have found actually the opposite. I don't really seem to be looking at women that way. I really hope this passes.

But I noticed with W first. I'm not really attracted to her anymore. I don't know if that has to do with the A, or no booze, or what. I think she is a sexy women, but I think that is because I can recall our past intimacy, however, I just don't really feel much towards her sexually. Probably to early to tell, but thought I should tracking it just in case this is an issue with the A and not the drink.

Who knows, may never have to ask and answer these questions. Just sort of playing scrabble with my head right now.

Atlas,

Congrats on going sober.

Things seem like they are going well for you. I'd like to interject a little "anti-DB" advice. At this point in the R with your wife, don't get hung up on LRT and what you shouldn't do in terms of pursuit. The only DB thing to really be sure about is "do what works". She is showing interest. She is making an effort to keep you around. And it sounds like she wants more of you than you are giving. You won't know that unless you are willing to show the side of you that is interested in a relationship with her. You can have a good hug. You can hang out with her if she wants (and you want to...don't forget that you also have a say in all that occurs here). You can show you care. If you are ever going to be a couple again, it can't be based on LRT and being aloof. If she's at the point where she wants to know "where are we at", then be frank with her. If you want to see where the relationship goes, you want to go on a date, or you want her to take the lead, then tell her so. If you're uncertain where things are headed, then tell her you need time to figure that out. You are doing good on words of affirmation. If she wants quality time, then it may not be inappropriate to suggest doing something together.

I see her making some strides of her own while you are making strides of your own. It's a fine line to walk between letting her know you'd like to give her a chance and making her think that a relationship with you is as easy as snapping her fingers. You'll figure out how to walk that line if you keep your eyes open for what seems to be working.

Originally Posted By: Just_Me

At this point in the R with your wife, don't get hung up on LRT and what you shouldn't do in terms of pursuit. The only DB thing to really be sure about is "do what works".

I agree completely, I'm not really doing any DB techniques right now, just being myself and enjoying life. I really feel good about things and where my life is headed, so it is hard with the "pink cloud" in place right now. That will pass though.

Originally Posted By: Just_Me

She is showing interest. She is making an effort to keep you around. And it sounds like she wants more of you than you are giving. You won't know that unless you are willing to show the side of you that is interested in a relationship with her. You can have a good hug. You can hang out with her if she wants (and you want to...don't forget that you also have a say in all that occurs here). You can show you care.

Wow! This is a tough one to respond to. I love her, I think. See, there it is. I'm unsure of anything anymore. Now that I'm leaving wetbrain behind, I'm asking some hard questions and not necessarily getting the answer I want to hear. For instance, drinking and partying with friends is a big part of W's life, and her entire family. Well I don't think I can be with someone that isn't going to be almost completely sober. Maybe a glass of wine with a meal here and there. Then again how could I answer that after a few measily weeks. So I just need to wait. But I'm pretty sure I know what W would choose, and that says it all.

Second, my higher power is a christian based belief. I don't know if I will ever want to extend that to religion and learn to worship or what not, but W is really mad at the Catholic church, and it's not like I'd be we have to be this way or what not, but we are on such a dicotomy on this one, that I don't see us working past that.

So I don't know if those are two big of things for W to give in on to have a happy R with me. So I just keep working on myself and see and observe what happens.

Originally Posted By: Just_Me

If you are ever going to be a couple again, it can't be based on LRT and being aloof. If she's at the point where she wants to know "where are we at", then be frank with her. If you want to see where the relationship goes, you want to go on a date, or you want her to take the lead, then tell her so. If you're uncertain where things are headed, then tell her you need time to figure that out. You are doing good on words of affirmation. If she wants quality time, then it may not be inappropriate to suggest doing something together.

Thanks for the tip, and it is the best way at this point to go about things. Total openness really is what we need. Too many walls right now and to be open is the way to go. I can't say for sure where it is going. I do want to ask her out, but I don't think it is right yet, maybe I'm being a wuss, who knows. But we haven't had a meal together with just the two of us, except this x-mas for over a year or more. We need a night to just be us.

Originally Posted By: Just_Me

I see her making some strides of her own while you are making strides of your own. It's a fine line to walk between letting her know you'd like to give her a chance and making her think that a relationship with you is as easy as snapping her fingers. You'll figure out how to walk that line if you keep your eyes open for what seems to be working.

Ya I'm sure. I'm actually really nervous about a few things and we will see if they ever come about. But I just don't think I could jump in the sack with her right now. Especially, at her place. Just a lot of weird mojo going around and things feel odd. I just have to keep my body in shape and stay clean and sober and I know my mind will find the right answers.

Atlas... Thanks for posting to me. I appreciate it. $\:\)$

it sounds like you are really at a good place. I think DBing is all about doing what works and becoming a better person, not only for the M, but for yourself as well. You may not be doing DB techniques, but you seem to be doing what works.

Take your time, figure out exactly how you feel and what it important to you. Maybe not yet (unless you find a good time) but I think it is important that you let your W know how you feel about partying and alcohol and faith. I'm sure that these are things she's thinking about as well (if she knows anything about the program).

You are doing great. Just keep it up!!

Well I've been doing a lot of studying and leaving my books out. I don't have anything to hide. The more she sees me turn towards God the happier she seems to become. So I'll just wait and see if she wants to follow. There is plenty of time.

I am just working on me, and seeing where we go. As I'm sure she is doing as well. My only concern is staying sober one day at a time, and that is my real focus.

I could use some help if you have read "Not Just Friends."

I'm really starting to feel some anger and resentment welling up inside me. Unlike what I have dealt with before, so much so, that I need to address it and work through it so it doesn't affect what I'm trying to do for myself and DB efforts, if that is what I choose.

I guess what I'm looking to know is does this book help you decide to work on your M, or when it's time to let it go? I don't want to make a regretable decision, and I'm not going to for a while, but it looks like a large book and I need to get started if that is the case.

Thanks for the advice.

Time is no longer on my side. Any suggestions would be appreciated, except the I told you to follow through with the settlement earlier. Lol!

I�m not even a month into sobriety and I have felt the �pink cloud� of �oh ya I�m sober� starting to already lift. I�ve been sick for the last 4 days and have had a lot of time to pace and think. What I do. Well basically I am back to chapter 1. I don�t know what I want. Well I do, a family a loving R, etc� but I don�t think it is possible with who W is now, and I don�t think she is coming back to the person I ever knew.

Here�s the problem:

I sent W a settlement prior to getting involved with a sponsor in AA. My sponsor knows I�m going through a D but, that is about it. He asked me to pull back, and we talked about it a little and he said lets wait and see, pull it back if you can. So I asked W to wait and she did.

Well W called tonight, to let me know that she has been diagnosed as bi-polar. Something I have suspected for some time. Her mother and one of her sisters is as well, all three think the doctors are wrong and have chosen to do nothing about it. I�m sick of dealing with all of it, and just think it is best to cut my losses and move on.

That brings about the tough part, W has found a town home that she wants to try and buy, and she is saying this week. Well W doesn�t exactly fully understand the financial world to well, she is going to be super pissed to find she can�t get a loan because she is tied into our home. We can�t sell because the market is down and we don�t have the funds for the loss.

So my fear is if I don�t get her to settle before she tries to purchase this town home, she will freak out, and decide a trial is the way to go and then that will cost me another 20 to 30k in cash and time and agony.

I�m going to speak to my sponsor tomorrow, but I think it is done. What do you guys think?

Atlas -

If it weren't for bad luck you'd have no luck at all. I feel for you man. I dont know what to recommend for you as you have a difficult situation right now. You need to talk to your lawyer.

My friend and cousin had warned me to strike first and strike hard and get the D over as fast as possible otherwise it only becomes more expensive. I know you realize that now. Dont fret about what you should have done. You had good intentions of saving your M at the time.

Another thing my friend told me was that it gets better financially following the D. From your situation, it sure seems that it can only get better emotionally. I dont know much about bi-polar, but you are probably right about cutting your losses and moving on. Just keep in mind that you still need to deal with your STBXW for many many more years and lets hope she gets treatment otherwise it could be very difficult.

Just focus on yourself and your S, stay away from the sauce, have faith and all will be ok. You can do it. I am sending you some Good Luck.

Thanks for the uplift Kerry.

Actually made me laugh. You know what is the thing, I think I have to be the luckiest person I know. During my drunking spiral down, I fall a$$ backwards into my dream job, she left the house so I have that, my car is paid for, and the thing (W) that just never seemed to work out, may just be moving far enough out of my life here soon enough, that I'll be fine.

I actually feel like the weight of the world is lifted off my shoulders a bit. There were things I just couldn't figure out through out our M, and now it just makes sense.

I'm watching TV and they are fly fishing, guess what, I won't feel guilty about going fly fishing anymore. Like it ruined my marriage or something YAAAA!!!!

She's gonna do what she can legally with the house, she doesn't have much financially to push to hard, so it may be a non issue. I'll have to think it through.

Hey Atlas,

Did you talk to your sponsor about the predicament? Perhaps he would have some better insight if you just told him eveythng about the D. I would even include the DB aspect as it is pretty important to you.

From my perspective, just getting it done and done quickly would be a priority. No sense prolonging the painful inevitiable.

Not sure what the pink clould is but it sounds like no fun! Best of luck and hang in there, buddy.

Best,
--Chris

Atlas,
my man i have been so busy with work and my own Crazy W that i have been off the site for a while. Sounds like your W and mine are related, no they are just women, sorry anne gotta vent. Anyway at least your W went to get diagnosed mine wont so you have one up on me. I too am dealing with a court hearing this thursday, but oyu and i have to keep our heads up, again we cant control what they are doing or thinking, i believe mine is feeling the dollar crunch right now and looks to getting the kids as a way for a check in the mail, sounds like welfare but it is what it is. you need to stay strong and deal with what cards you are dealt, i will keep up with your thread..

Hi Atlas... At this point, i don't think you sponsor knows enough to know what you should do. Share what's been going on, you'll have to at some point anyways, might as well get it out of the way now.

IMO, you should let things move forward with the D. She will not be the W you need until she is ready to face her issues and do something to correct them. There is nothing saying that after D and some C and meds for W, that you guys can't renew friendship/dating/love/M, but for now, i just don't think she can give you that. Seems like you are both just in differnt places right now.

For the house thing, probably someone can let her know that going into a trial will just prolong things. Even if you go to trial and sell, depending on the market, she may not be any better off... When my parents D, my mom was able to get my dad off the loan and extend it out a couple years, don't know if that's something you could look into if you wanted to work with her on that?

Just keep focusing on the sobriety and the little guy.

DH - Vent away... i'm sure i have my crazy moments too!! $;\)$ hehe

Hey Atlas,

You haven't touched base with us in a few days. So how's it going?

--Chris

W is still just doing nothing. W won't move forward in either direction. I'm frustrated and running really low on patience. We are supposed to talk Sunday and I already know she won't be able to decide. It's the same every time.

Last few nights we have had some good chit chat calls, eventually it turns to what we are doing, I've been at fault to head to the R talk as well as she. Either way, she says she can't decide what to do and she is scared.

I don't know what to do anymore, I just can't seem to pull the trigger, she holds the power and I'm sick of it. She knows it, I just think I have to force myself to face it and put an actual real timeline on it, and stick with it for once. Ultimatim time maybe?

Atlas...

Umm...90 days?

NH

Stay patient. Stay sober. What's the rush to know?
BD

Originally Posted By: Atlas

I don't know what to do anymore, I just can't seem to pull the trigger, she holds the power and I'm sick of it.

Atlas, Your staying sober is power, your self-imposed 90-day moratorium is power, knowledge she is bi-polar is power, looking after S2 is power ... I guess you are trying to make up your mind to bail out ASAP? Maybe line up all the ducks in your favor and load up your barrels now so you can pull the trigger for D if you have to at 90-days (D-day)?

Heya Atlas,

Why such a rush and loss of patience? She is not holding the cards. You are the one with the 90-days. Unless there is some court deadline or something I am unaware of, you are making your own timeline already. Just stay sober and stay the course. Make the most out of YOUR 90 days. I say let her spin and spin, not your problem she doesn't have a plan.

Best,
--Chris

Thanks for the input.

I guess what is driving me nuts, is that she won't open up at all, we spend no time with each other, outside of some phone chit chat.

I sort of figured this 90 days would be for us each to examine whether we wanted a R, and I thought that would include some time spent together. Apparently not.

So my deal is, if we aren't spending any time together. Then what the he(( are we doing? Might as well move it forward if we are just wasting time is how I figure it.

Sober is going fine. I couldn't go back if I wanted to. I was talking with my sponsor and he said my attitude was right on and he felt like I have realized how shitty life is with the booz, that even if I had a relapse he knows I'd be right back on the wagon. Not that I'm worried about one, but outside of the W project, life is kicking some major fun a$$ right now.

Maybe some advice on my thinking about how or what to do with W? Maybe ask her out, or spend time together? What should I try? Honestly, I'm sick of playing DB, I just want to tell her I want some time with her, and see her reaction.

Hi Atlas,

I think that you aren't giving yourself any credit. You both have the power to walk away at this point. The fact that you are trying to use yours constructively and figure stuff out doesn't mean you have any less power.

I think that part of her hang up is knowing that she's going to have to give up or at least slow down her fun new lifestyle... She's in party mode and you are in family mode. You both really need to be on the same page before you can make things work.

Glad to hear life is going well outside of M. That's always a good thing.

Quote:

Maybe some advice on my thinking about how or what to do with W? Maybe ask her out, or spend time together? What should I try? Honestly, I'm sick of playing DB, I just want to tell her I want some time with her, and see her reaction.

Then do it... Ask her to go out with you. treat her as you would a new girl that you'd ask out. It's been a while since you've done that, but it still works the same way. you ask, she says yes or no. If she says yes, maybe plan something fun that you guys used to do together and probably haven't done in a while. Dress up and take her out... why not. What have you got to lose at this point?

Keep going. $\:\)$ ann

Quote:

Maybe some advice on my thinking about how or what to do with W? Maybe ask her out, or spend time together? What should I try? Honestly, I'm sick of playing DB, I just want to tell her I want some time with her, and see her reaction

Atlas,

You are being a little impatient, but I understand where you are coming from. You thinking seems to be, if things aren't going to move forward, then why bother waiting 90 days. And you want to spend time together, but she isn't making any strides your direction.

So, my feeling is that you should go for it. Ask her out. Go do something together. Grab some dinner and a movie. What do you actually have to lose? Maybe she's waiting for you to initiate something. If the worst thing that happens is she says no or she's not ready, then what have you lost? You were days away from going to court and finishing this marriage off. DB says, "do what works". Do you really know that asking her out doesn't work? Have you tried it in the last couple months?

Hi All,

I think the answer is: What are your goals? If you want to rebuild the M, then ask her out. If you want the D (which is what I thought) then just get done with it. If you don't know, then use the 90 days and figure it out. Don't obsess with her and even think about her. GAL, brother.

--Chris

I'll throw my penny's worth out there. Agree with JM and Anne, you've been holding back for a while and letting her make the moves. Try a 180 and ask her out.

Plus, way back in the summer, you kept saying that she really responded to your confidence. Show it to her.

BD

Haven't tried it, at least not in a while and it was what did work last time. Although she cancelled it, she did turn it into hanging out at the house, which became a daily occurence for a while.

I just have no idea what she is doing, dating, seeing someone, partying. We have really lost touch lately. I guess I have nothing to lose.

Can't understand why I'm thinking this way, but all I can think is that she is dating people and keeps me on the side "in case." So that is why I'm anxious to pull the trigger of moving in some direction.

Maybe she's wondering why you aren't doing anything to show you're interested. You can only know if you actually approach her. You'll be able to make better decisions when they are based on actually knowing what's going on rather than assuming the worst based on her lack of contact.

Allright,

She has family in town until Sunday, I'll let that all pass by and then Sunday avoid talking anything heavy put ask her out and see where it goes and what happens.

Just_me,

I'd like your take on this. When W agreed to the 90 days, she seemed pretty hopeful, but did make it clear that she could and would do as she pleased with her life in the meantime. Such as dating etc. She said I have no right to ask about it either.

I don't know, but after that I have backed off and we have had our little phone calls, but that is all. I do want to ask her out and I think she would say yes.

But I also don't want to attempting to work on things while she is dating others as well. I don't know if she is, and haven't asked. She said no when we talked later, and then reiterated that when she brought up the bipolar bit.

But if I am going to be "dating" her then I don't want to be the OM. I don't know if going on one single date justifies "dating." But I don't want to be a doormate, like I have continued to be. I'm just sick of that feeling and it really kills my DB efforts. What would you suggest I say or do in moving forward. I don't know if bringing it up on Sunday and saying something to the likes of "I'm not willing to be the OM," or something similar is out of line. I know we aren't emotionally M'ed any longer, but I still consider our voes to be just that, and have a hard time with the fact that she could be doing these things and in the meantime she gets the best of both worlds. Could I stipulate that an acceptance requires exclusivity while we explore this phase? Am I out of line there? What is fair I guess?

Quote:

did make it clear that she could and would do as she pleased with her life in the meantime. Such as dating etc. She said I have no right to ask about it either.

I'm struggling with why she agreed to the 90 days then. How is that different than being divorced? How is this different than when she dropped the bomb? That doesn't say, "I'd like to see where WE go for the next 90 days".

Quote:

I don't know if bringing it up on Sunday and saying something to the likes of "I'm not willing to be the OM," or something similar is out of line. I know we aren't emotionally M'ed any longer, but I still consider our voes to be just that, and have a hard time with the fact that she could be doing these things and in the meantime she gets the best of both worlds. Could I stipulate that an acceptance requires exclusivity while we explore this phase? Am I out of line there? What is fair I guess?

Start with a beginner's mind (maybe I'm misusing this phrase, but it still seems appropriate). I know you see yourself as still married, but she doesn't. So, I would think more in terms of someone that you are asking on an initial date. Would you demands exclusivity on your first date? I'd take it slower. If the date goes well and leads to more dates, but she's still seeing other people, you should do what you'd do if the same thing happened with a girl you were first dating. Would you indicate you don't want to see her anymore because you aren't interested in seeing someone that is dating multiple people? I would. It sounds like you feel the same way. I think you need to give her the opportunity to see what dating you can be like so she can determine if exclusively dating you is what she wants.

Okay, that being said, I'm a little worried for you. You've said she's still a partier. What would dates look like with her. Would she want to always go to the bar or party? If it's not possible for her to date you without booze being involved, I'd probably quit seeing her. That may be cart before the horse, but whatever relationship you end up in should respect that you aren't a partier. Right?

Atlas,
JM makes a good point about the dating.

Just one other thought, YOU are also deciding if you want HER to be in your life. You're W isn't driving this bus. You are.

BD

Your right, it is no diffrent then being divorced. She has her safety net and gets to do as she pleases to, we have little to no contact as it is unless she NEEDS something. Not sure why she agreed to it as well. I think she is trying to keep the safety net there why she looks for something better, and if she can't find it, oh well at least I have this one. This may sounds selfish and what not, but I'm sick of hearing from her how nice it is that we are developing such a good friendship because this will be so good for our S to see us get along as a D'ed couple. I want things to work, but if she is bound to go the other way, I have to say I won't be happy about it or nice. She has screwed me over in a lot of respects and I don't owe her respect for that.

I guess I'm torn with starting with the beginner's mind as we say and asking her out as I would any one else, and not demanding anything and treating as a brand new R. The reason I state this, is she knows how I feel, it has been made clear. So with her knowing where I stand but no action on her part, I don't know if she wants to date me to just have fun or actually explore whether we are workable. Second, I won't tolerate any drinking. She knows this and won't push it with me, that isn't an issue. However, if things did become more serious then she would have to concede to some type of sober life.

My other thought, after reading in the DR book lately, is to try the "after the LRT" around page 218 I think, in the infidelity chapter. I'm leaning towards this idea for two reasons. First, it allows me to continue to work on my sobriety without dealing with W or the M for now. Second, she hasn't responded positively to me until I did drop the rope and show her I didn't need her. So maybe I need to quit the I am here for you BS, and move on to the it's up to you to decide but I won't accept your lifestyle and choices as they are now.

I just think she is still in such a remote place of indecision, that pursueing for a date, while sounding fun and bringing us together, she won't be assessing our R, rather just looking for someone to hang out with and have fun. I'm just starting to think that after 7 months she needs to be shown the full ramifications of what her decision will gain for her. She has had small glimpses of this, but I have been overwhelming to willing to help and be a rock to lean on in her tough times. Whenever I need to talk to her about S or anything she doesn't respond, and if she does it is on her time line. On the flip side of that coin I'm way to available for her. I help with anything she needs, make repairs, respond to requests and am not showing any effort at detaching. She knows she has me by the short ones and I am allowing her to over reach and take advantage. It is my fault. I just have to make some sort of move or change.

That's about the best self-administered 2X4 I've seen.

Now, make it so. After reading all of this, I'd still lean towards asking her out and showing her what being with you would/could be like.

Also, it is a brand new R. What you had with your W is dead and gone. As we've written to each other before, if that R had been strong, you wouldn't be here.

BD

Hard choices Atlas. At the end of the day, this is still about doing what is right by you. If you think dating her would be simply a one way street with you giving and her taking, and aren't good with that, then by all means, do what feels most healthy. There is NO WAY that this should be all about you kissing her butt or being her source of support, when it suits her fancy, and you get nothing back. You are at a point in this process when you know there has to be more. If moving on is what you need to get your head around this, then do so. If what she has to offer isn't enough right now, then it's fine to wait til she's ready, if she's ever going to be, to pick up some slack. And I agree, quit being so available.

Me

I have to agree more so with what Just_me is stating in his post. Dating for us is a waste of time at this point, she either wants to be in a M with or she doesn't. Dating my reinforce that or it may not, but I'm not willing to date and get nothing in return while she plays the field.

I am defiently at a point where there has to be more. The fact of the matter is, I continue to work on myself, I have taken 100% responsibility for my share of the breakdown, while she continues to blame me 100% for her share and her A. I didn't make her take her clothes off and roll around naked with him.

My sponsor and I have been toying around with some questions and how that would look and this is what I have so far. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

1. Do you want to build a happy healthy M/R with each other?

Most likely I expect to get the I don't know. At which point he thinks I should ask nothing further. Let her know that it is now her decision and I love her enough to let her go. Drope the rope and work on my sobriety. The one thing we haven't decided upon is a timeline, waiting until if she makes no effort then D'ing. We both agree there should be one, most likely the 90 days as already stated, but we haven't decided whether it should be announced to her, have nothing said, or just say there is one but not tell her how long.

2. If a miracle, and she says yes. Then what must we have right now to start?

My answer to total openness and honesty and exclusivity.

3. Lastly, what actions do we need to do in order to build a happy, healthy, M/R?

We came up with IC, MC, Support AA efforts, STD check, Date night, etc. These would each come in time. But we would compare lists and go from there.

Overwhelmingly, I know that I will get the I don't know on number 1. Then I head towards the after the LRT technique. Then it will be up to her. I do have enough going on to fill my time and I am enjoying my changing life, it would be better with her in it, but there are other fish, and I think maybe alone for a while would be nice as it has been so far.

Penny for your thoughts, half price from your two cents!

Hi Atlas, this probably isn't worth 2 cents anyways... hehe

I think, right now, maintaining your sobriety is #1. Things that cause stress and pain aren't going to help that. They may not hurt he efforts, but i certainly don't see them helping.

You've been there for her over and over again. She knows that you will be whenever she needs/wants you. The only times she showed a significant change is when you weren't always there.

I know that you've said before (a few times) that you aren't even 100% sure that you love her like you did and that you even want her back. You need to decide if that is what you really want...

One thing i will say in your W's defense is that in your first post you said "She seemed excited, said she hasn't seen me sober even a whole week, so if I can show 90 days she says she wants to see who I am and what we are about. She did specify, with a big wall up, that this doesn't mean we are going to reconcile nor are reconciling right now, she wants to see what I am about. So it is up to me." It's been a few weeks. If you do want your W back (since it's as much your decision as hers) you might want to give her the time that will make her feel like you've really chnaged. You might go back and read your first post on this thread. You knew all this was coming, the dating, her waiting the full 90 days.... decide what is right for Atlas and work towards that goal. It may not be W, only you can make that decision.

Hang in there! $\:\)$ ann

I think she'll say, "I don't know", also. In which case you are still in the original spot following bomb. The rope should already be on the ground and should stay there unless she's tugging on the other side. I wouldn't phrase it as, "it's now your decision", because that says you're available whenever her other options are exhausted (and yes, I agree, she probably is playing the field looking for the best available option and you are her fallback plan). I don't know exactly how I'd word it, but I would lead her to understand that you intend to keep moving forward with your life in the positive direction it's going and it may not necessarily always include her.

Me

Hey Atlas,

I think you are starting to see things more clearly now. Except for the fact that you control this mess. If you want her, go after her. If you want the D, then go after it. You still seem to be in limbo, so I think you need to just detach and think for the 90 days. Keep your head clear, pray for guidance, and figure things out.

If you start pursuing her, you have to face the fact that you could be second fiddle (or third, or fourth). She is playing the field and you are in the field. You are not receiving any special dispensation becasue of the M. In fact, I think it penalizes you at this point.

Here is a fundamental question: Do you really want this woman or do you just want that which is being denied to you? There is a lot of "water under the bridge" with you two. You also know how often painful it is to be with her. She seems to be still spinning out of control while you are working on gaining control (of yourself). Are you sure you need the chaos at this critical time?

Best,
--Chris

Wow! Some awesome posts. Gives me some good stuff to think about. Sorry if I don't respond for a bit, I need to mull this all over in the head. I'm glad I came early though cause I do want to have a good 48-72 hours under the belt before stage time. Who knows, I've thought about showing up and not brining anything up if she doesn't. May be the best route to take.

Either way, I'm not worried about W interfering with my sobriety. She doesn't hold a candle to that right now. She won't kill my focus or deviate me from the task.

W had a family party today, so she asked to take S since it is my weekend. She was to drop him off at 9, she finally showed at 10. She had been crying. Then she gets stuck in the driveway, after I get her car out, she says "Well maybe you should have tried that first." Haha! All I said was, "Your welcome." She saw the error of that and thanked me and gave a hug. Asked how her party was and she just says $hity, slammers her door and drives off.

So S comes in and says mom was crying in the car. Keeps talking about it, then says that she fought with friend in car. Hmmm! Just left him alone on it, but he seems pretty torn up by it. Eventually he is in tears and I have to rock him to sleep over it. Wonder if it is was a guy? I don't know. But S is really torn up about seeing this. Tried to call W about him being so upset but no answer.

Hey Atlas,

hate to be blunt, but probably was about a guy.. our kids dont need to be around this sh!t.. the spouses need to keep the drama out of our kids lives, but the problem is you only have control of oyur own drama in regards to the kids, i wish we could snap our kids away when they are subjected to the drama our S's put them through, who has the answer....

Hey DH,

Nice to see ya man. Glad to hear your order for the kids is still in place. That is a good sign.

I'm sure it was about a guy. I'm sure she was dumb enough to take him to the family party and he probably found out she is still married, and decided he wanted no part of that. Just a guess, and that is all it ever is. I'm not going to dwell on it, or rely or respond to my guesses though. I've learned that lesson. I have no control over what she does and can only control myself and be there for my S.

It hurts to see him like that. Asking me if I'm his daddy and if I love him. He's almost three and becoming very observant. I can defiently see that the stress of all of this is having its effect on him and that sucks. I just held him and told him I loved him and would always be his daddy. He calmed down and fell asleep in my arms.

Every time he spends a day here he doesn't want to go back to her place. He holds on to me and fights it every time. My only solace on this is that I know as he gets older he will look for stability and a home were other people don't constantly come and go out of his life. I'll provide that for him, and I'm sure he will just spend more and more time here.

Atlas,

If i had a twin in divorcebusting i believe it would be you. I just dropped the kiddos off to their mom, i will psot on my thread how it went and her ridiculous phone call to me this morning. Just keep doin what your doin be the best dad you can and your son will always know you are his DADDY!!!!

Hi Atlas, DH,

And for me, I think I am getting a look at the future. What you guys are going through now appears to be imminent for me. I just hate the thought of my kids having to endure a succession of OM's and other emotional garbage brought upon by WAW. Makes me sick to think of it.

Best,
--Chris

Chris,

It sucks, really does. Cause there is nothing you can do about it, it is out of your circle of control and only in your circle of concern.

It's true that if a person leaves the R without resolving their issues they will continue to repeat it over and over. So I can expect a lot of OM to come and go and watch my S go through this devistation. Oh but she insists she is a good parent. Ya right!

Well more suspicion confirmed. S is talking about some guy yelling at mommy about being married. I'm slowly realizing my W is as John Steinbeck put is the "people of the lie." I haven't read it but a friend said it is very interesting. Apparently it is the case he lays out that there is a god. But he goes on further to say there are really three types of people in this world and only two are trustworthy. The first are followers of God and his teachings. The second are athiests, that since they are bound by their conviction they are trustworthy. But the people of the lie are dangerous. These are people with no resolute belief or structure, thus they do what ever suits their fancy for the particular moment. Nothing they do or say is really punishable or held to any standard of being responsible for society. Rather it is a dog eat dog world and get what you can while you can. Sounds pretty close.

Maybe something to keep in mind as we may be all soon heading into the dating world once again.

Atlas,

i read your post on my thread so i decided to respond on yours. As far as the seeing other women, well its a tough issue... MY C told me a marriage takes at least 1-2 years to truly get over. But for who the one who gets hurt or the one doing the hurting. Well i was the one hurt and i soaked in pain for a while but i believe i have pulled myself out quickly and i dont want to go back to that pain again. I am not going to wait a year to interact with other "single" woman, unlike W's OM im not a homewrecker hehe and no offense the the profession of counseling but even C dont have the answers to everything. You have to do what your heart tells you. I am able to hold my composer around the W and not care whether she is with OM or not anymore. Meeting other woman and seeing other woman show interest in me and tell me i was the W one and only in a lifetime catch feels awesome. Hey i m not going to have a GF or even consider a wedding for a loooooooooong time if i ever do get married again. But my point is Atlas there is nothing wrong with taken things with a beautiful woman to a friendship status, and who knows from there. Chris the kids are tough, but it is actually what made this split between the W and I easier, bc i focused on the kids not my M. try it no do it,, it needs to be that way for now..

Well crap, leave it to my sponsor to kick my shorts a good one.

After asking him to show an hour early to go over the sitch. We go through the whole thing, I talk about DB'ing, which he knows what it is, and I quote "So let me get this straight, I'm a victim, I'm a victim, I'm a victim." Lol.

So he goes on to say, (this is all sponsor and me paraphrasing) W has your settlment agreement, it's open ended time wise so she could sign anytime and the M is over. She hasn't and will when she is ready if she ever is. Well your mad because of her behavior but you created this sitch with your booze. She is doing what she is doing to get attention from you, she wants you to D her, to do anything, just show attention in some way. Unfortunetly, if you do D her, you won't fix anything with her, I guarantee you will only make matters worse. A piece of paper won't help you coparent if that is where this goes. You can't control her and she may do it, so be it. But your doing nothing of the sorts. Sorry but your a pro drinker, you've proven that, but a poor lifer. You can't deal with the day to day rigors of what life tosses at you, so you have to learn that life isn't easy, and leave it to God. So your 180 will be to do nothing, but be nice, and be an excellent father. Your priorities are one, no drinking, two, your S. Three, possibly your M, but I would say it's your work for now. Then fourth your W. So lets keep that perspective. Your 180 will be to treat her kind, be nice, but not to get walked on. Give her attention only in a positive manner.

Then he goes on to say that she knew I was an alcoholic before she married me, especially if she is a drug and alcohol C'er. Says she needs Alanon, and that people that marry us are generally screwy as well. So he says she has to deal with her own crap and I just need to be supportive and continue to act M for myself and my S, but don't bother with what W does. Only point to the positives, and let the rest be.

This will show what type of person W really is. If she comes around, figures her crap out and gets into Alanon then you two are supposed to take care of this child as a family. If she keeps with her behaviors and doesn't change eventually you will be in the way enough she will D you, and that is the right thing. But you let her do it. You stay out of the way of that, and let your attorney handle it.

So that is it in a nutshell. I have to stop trying to control everything and let God do his will. W will do what she wants, and I have to keep the ducks back and learn how to cope, and let go of control. So I guess no confrontation tomorrow.

Good exchange with the W today. She looked great and I told her so. She went out of her way to say thank you for getting her car unstuck yesterday. Which was nice and I said no problem and your welcome.

Told her I missed seeing her around the house, she should come by once in a while. She immediately stopped what she was doing, her hair, which is a big deal if she stopped. She smiled and said she did too. I said your welcome there anytime so don't be a stranger.

Gave her a hug, starting to become a staple when we see each other. But I'm still doing the friend, one arm over the shoulder pat the back hug. She is reaching around the waist and pulling tight. But I'll just keep doing whats working so I'm not going for a love hug yet. She was wearing the necklace again.

All positive steps. Out of the blue she did ask that I give her full custody of S. To which I dropped the smile and cheerful voice, and took a low tone. "I will not give up any parental rights to my S." I think it really shook her foundation, she kinda stepped back and looked at me like wow, he is standing up for himself.

I then went straight back into happy mode. Played with S for a minute and gave em both a goodbye hug and on my way.

Taking each day as it comes. Thats all I can do.

Good job Atlas,

You use this site well you vent here, and take what you truly feel to life when in contact with your W and S thats the key... nice work...

DH

Your sponsor sounds like a smart cookie, and I like the things he laid out for you and in the order he laid them out. Obviously, you can't make any list of changes that include your wife...she's entirely responsible for those.

Quote:

She is doing what she is doing to get attention from you, she wants you to D her, to do anything, just show attention in some way.

This is the only thing I disagree with. Based on what you've written before, I do not believe that she does what she does for attention from you. That's typical LBS thinking..."he/she is doing x,y, or z to gauge my reaction". While I believe her dating other guys isn't to get your attention, the reality is that unless she tells you flat out why she behaves the way she does, you have no way of knowing. Having a wife come back, I can tell you that she didn't do things to see if I was noticing. She was doing things for her own reasons and I was doing a fair amount of overinterpreting. It's just another thing you can't control. You can stay stable and on course and it should be enough for you. If it isn't enough for her, then so be it.

Just_me,

Thanks for the input. My paraphrasing was poor on that point. Basically he stated that she is craving attention, from me, or from anyone. Since she feels I won't give it she is seeking it from other men. He was merely stating that she wants me to give her some attention, she is looking for something from me besides the LRT or going dark. He thinks a little pursueing may be in order just so that she knows what I want. His idea was to send just a nice text message each day saying something positive with a hello.

Yeah, she could be wanting attention from you. Or, maybe she wants attention from other guys and not from you. You'll never know unless you actually try. You should know in short order whether she wants and enjoys the attention from you. LRT isn't the answer for everybody...sometimes the spouse actually does want you to chase a bit. Do it and see how it goes. You can always draw back if it produces negatives.

Hey atlas... I like your sponser... hehe.

Good for you on standing upi to W about your son. I have no idea why she thinks you'd give up custody. That doesn't make sense. Anyways... Just keep doing what you are doing...

focus on you and son... God has amazing things planned for you, whether with W or not, so hang in there!! $\:\)$

ann

Hey Atlas,

Way to go! I think it is great that you stood firm and yet was able to get along with W. A day at a time!

Best,
--Chris

Sent W a TM yesterday just saying that she is someone special in my life. She called later in the evening after work and we had a pleasent conversation. I told her I didn't see her coming around much and missed her, to which she responded that she missed me as well. Good sign.

At the suggestion of my spons, I got her a little card and just wrote how grateful I was to have her as part of my life and appreciate her friendship. Gave that to her this morning. So we will see how that goes.

I have my 30 days tomorrow and W said a while back that she would like to be there, but it is right up against her work schedule and I think she has forgotten. I sent a TM reminding her about it, and said it was up to her if she would like to attend but that it would mean a lot to me. So we will see if she wants to go.

Sounds like you're doing fine. I'm sure she thought the card was a nice gesture. Keep us posted and CONGRATULATIONS on your 30 day mark!!!

30 days!! awesome...

sounds like you are doing good with W. Just keep being the new improved you and she'll see that this is not a temporary change!! $\:\)$

Hi Atlas,

Things are looking good. Congrats on the 30 days.

Don't take it to heart if W shows up or not. Either way, you are fine. If she does, don't pressure her. If she doesn't, that's fine for you too.

Best,
--Chris

Well W wants to go, asked about in a TM after I reminded her. But then she wouldn't respond to any other TM after I tried to make some light convo.

Makes me think she is just curious to come see a meeting. If she wanted to be around she would be. Not sure how I'll handle it. Guess I give her the address and see what happens.

Some PMA I guess, getting tired of her waffling. One day she is upset because I don't come in her apartment when univited. The next I'm worthy of responding to a TM. Leaves me in a limbo of how to act towards her. Just feel that I can't do anything right in her eyes. All tunnels seem cheesless at this point. Hard to tell what is working and what isn't.

Don't underestimate the power of the nice note, just as you've been doing. It was something they taught us in Retrouvaille -- always start out saying something nice or thanking the other person for something. It's amazing how a simple little nicety can make a huge difference in the way people relate to each other. Your sponsor sounds great. Congratulations on 30 days; it's a big step.

Originally Posted By: Atlas

Some PMA I guess, getting tired of her waffling. One day she is upset because I don't come in her apartment when univited. The next I'm worthy of responding to a TM. Leaves me in a limbo of how to act towards her. Just feel that I can't do anything right in her eyes. All tunnels seem cheesless at this point. Hard to tell what is working and what isn't.

Hey... didn't i just say that... hehe

don't get down on yourself. You are doing everything you know how to do. Your W has to figure out her stuff, you just keep doing what you've been doing. For me, before i came here, i missed my H the way he was. I liked spending time with him, but I also didn't want to send him any signals that i had changed my mind. She's telling you she wants to see you, but might be holding back at other times to avoid leading you on until she sees that your changes are permanent. you keep being nice to her and let her adjust. She'll have to get used to that again.

limbo land sucks, but you are doing great!! $\:\)$

Hi Atlas,

I think we can drive ourselves crazy trying to second guess our spouses. Best to just let go and watch from afar. She is still in limbo land and I don't think she is close to figureing out what she wants. Don't let her waffling get you down. I think it is par for the DB course.

Best,
--Chris

How was your 30day celebration. Did she show up. Want the details. And, you must have read my thread earlier, I was saying the same thing about not knowing what is working and what isn't.

Quote:

Leaves me in a limbo of how to act towards her.

I believe the key -- and you know this -- is to be the rock, and therefore consistent in how you communicate with her. Always don your duck's back and remain true to yourself. Always remember to keep your changes going so they become cemented within, and always let your demeanor exude confidence and contentment.

Don't let her determine your emotions and behaviors -- YOU do that yourself.

Keep placing one foot in front of the other, my friend. I hope you're very proud of yourself and your accomplishments!

GD

Thanks everyone!

I am pretty stoked over it. One of the guys who really helped along for the first few weeks got his year today after working on it for 4 years. So it was a good celebration among friends and a group of us are going out tomorrow night for some dancing and fun. It's good to know that I have a new network of friends that I don't have to worry about impressing or drinking around.

I meet a great girl tonight. Hopefully I get to know her better. Just nice to talk to a female and realize there are some great women out there and if things don't work with W, I'll be just fine. Hard to go from being that college age boy to single as a career man and think I'm back out to dating again.

I've been thinking about the whole dating thing lately and I think I'm getting to that stage. I'm real tired of not going out having fun. I couldn't do anything physical at this point, but some female company is well deserved and craved.

Originally Posted By: Gone Dancin'

Quote:

Leaves me in a limbo of how to act towards her.

[quote=Gone Dancin'] I believe the key -- and you know this -- is to be the rock, and therefore consistent in how you communicate with her. Always don your duck's back and remain true to yourself. Always remember to keep your changes going so they become cemented within, and always let your demeanor exude confidence and contentment.

Well this is 3rd time this week I have heard this. So hopefully it sinks in. Here is the sitch, I have a good friend that I work out with who is a doc and we spend a lot of time together since we live pretty close and he is going through the same R type issues with his gf.

I told him about W's diagnosis of the bipolar. She still hasn't made it to the psychiatrist yet, says she has to file out some financial declaration for the sliding fee. But we talked about her behaviors and he thinks she is a classic type II and probably rapid cycling. Yesterday she couldn't wait to go to the meeting, then about half way through the day she quit talking to me. The plan was that she would come to the meeting, and after we would pick our S up at my parents since they would be watching him. She was supposed to call me today for directions.

Well you can guess what happened. She never called and I didn't reach out, left it to her. Went to the meeting, and it went great. After the meeting I turn my phone on and sure as can be, since W got off just before the meeting, she called about half way through. She was at the house all ticked off that I wasn't there with S. Acting like she had forgotten or maybe she did. Then I had a VM and she said she found him at my parents and that was all.

I called her and she was acting ticked off, so I just kept my cool and said oh you must have forgot tonight was the meeting, glad you picked up S, well see ya later, and hung up. Haven't heard anything since.

But my plan after hearing from my sponsor, the doc and everyone here is that I'm going to have to be the rock. I'm going to be nice and considerate, but that is all. I'm going to give her her space and leave it up to her to move in my direction. Doc thinks that once she starts taking meds, if she does, there will be a huge shift in behavior and he said she will probably come out of this and have some major guilt and wake up. So I'll just do what I can to be there, but its her choice to commit. I love her, and always have, but I can't deal with it constantly, so I won't. She needs to accept some responsibility here, and start making some steps in cleaning up her head.

Originally Posted By: Gone Dancin'

Don't let her determine your emotions and behaviors -- YOU do that yourself.

I love it! That is exactly it. I've been doing some reading up on this idea and it helps to realize that my happiness is within me and I'm finding everyday within me. I'm becoming stronger as I take greater pride in my life, working on my home, my financial sitch, especially my work and the work product I'm producing. Do I desire to share my time with a women? You betcha! Do I have to? Nope, I'm good alone, with the guys, at work or whatever I'm doing. I just have to realize her negative behaviors are not her normal reaction and let her work through it. I was pissed earlier today about her not contacting me, my sponsor asked what changed and what I did, and said nothing, and he said exactly, it isn't your problem. She is dealing with her own issue, if she blames you that is misdirected, but not your issue. So let it be, don't fight it and let her be alone on it until she comes back out of her funk.

Originally Posted By: Gone Dancin'

Keep placing one foot in front of the other, my friend. I hope you're very proud of yourself and your accomplishments!

GD

The only way you get anything done is one foot at a time in front of the other. Walk tall, watch my step and keep a smile on my face because each day is great. Postive thinking for me is important, so I just have to keep that going.

No contact today. I've made my decision to not contact or reach out, it doesn't help and it is up to her.

Funny, I feel pretty positive about life but at the same time I feel I have done everything and I'm feeling defeated. Sort of a mixed bag I guess. Really feel positive in my mind, but just physically I'm beat. I need some major rest I think to help out myself before it starts to bother my head. Might just be a good night to chill instead of going out.

Well so much for chillin for the night. Went out dancing and had a blast. Lots of great looking women and danced with my fair share. Nice to enjoy the company of others and not feel weird about still being M'ed.

I really feel like I'm detaching, I do well when I just avoid and stay away from W and her crazy drama. Funny how quickly I can get drawn back in if she does come around, but how long it takes to climb back up out of that when she is gone again.

Need to keep a lid on that, so when she comes around from now on, she isn't going to get the doormat. No more falling over myself to help her out. She will just have to help herself, I have enough on my plate to worry about what she is doing or how she feels.

I've also been thinking about the house. I'm really enjoying living alone, and do not want to have a roommate enter the picture. I have everything as I like it and I'm getting a little beyond my years for wanting that sitch. Especially with S around part time, I don't need the headache of trying to keep him out of others stuff. So I'm working on some ideas to bring in more work and cash to continue to cover all the expenses.

OK,

This is weird, I still have my old phone since the contract runs out in like another month or so and cancellation fee is a lot more. Well I don't use it all, and it is turned off. Every few weeks I check it for VM's and such.

Well I just turned it on and W is calling it all the time. Now she does call my new phone as well. She knows I don't use the other one, but she calls it asking where the meeting was the other night that she didn't show for. There were 7 VM's from her. Asking me to go do things. All kinds of stuff. But she called me just the other day about not being at the house on my new (over a month now) phone. So obviously when its dire she calls the one she knows I use. Why would she be calling the other one.

This just looks like a game to me or part of her new bipolar thing I guess. Maybe so she can say "I called you sorry you didn't get it. Maybe you should carry them both around." WTF???

I don't think I'm going to respond to it at all. I figure one of two things is going on. One she is playing a game, which if she is, I've already decided I'm not contacting her right now, so I might as well stick to that plan and not play back. Second, W can get confused on things like this easily, for instance she gets lost in our own town all the time. But if that is the case it still falls into one that I'm not going to respond anyway.

WOW! The rabbit hole just gets deeper and wackier the farther we go down it. I really hope she isn't losing it or something and I need to really be there for her. I guess I'll know if she does something drastic at which point I can step in. How odd.

Hey Atlas, sounds like an excuse to me. I kinda had the feeling she was covering her tracks by using the, "oops, I did call. I must have called the wrong phone" thing. But, you know her better. If she does get confused, maybe it was legit. But, you're right, there really is no reason to respond either way.

So something I have been thinking about lately and not really sure if or how I want to handle it. If anyone has any experiance or resources they recommend I would be appreciative.

Well wife may or may not be bipolar II. She defiently seems to fit the bill, but I'm not a doc, and my doc friend was never her doc. She says the diagnosis is from her MD, and she is going to still go see the psychiatrist.

Everything I read says it is controllable through meds. People can be normal if they take there meds. However, my experiance is that many fight this. Most of what I read says that people get worse over age as well.

A good friend who has fully supported my DB efforts has now said he would get out and not try and save it. Basically saying I dodged a bullet, but since we have a child together I did get some shrapnel and should be grateful I found out now.

My dilemia is do I give up if it is the case? How could I do that when I have my own "disease" of alcholism, I don't see much difference between the two. Doesn't that make me a hypocrite? Should I forsake being a hypocrite in my own mind to be happy or should I try and deal with her disorder for a lifetime. Who knows maybe she is asking the same questions. Haha!

I really don't know much about the disorder and what kind of available treatments or possible "fixes" there are. Any help or suggestion from experianced individuals would be appreciated.

Atlas -

That is a tough answer that you will have to come to terms of on your own. I can see how you could feel like you did not give your W a chance because she has has a mental disorder. However, you need to put your own (and your childs) happiness first.

I now believe that my W has some kind of mental problem too. I have insisted various times that she needs to see a counselor, but it was only in the last week that she indicated that she just may do that.

It all depends upon how dedicated your W is to fighting her problem with medication. Who is to say that she stops taking the meds some day to only return to the way she has been.

You know in your own mind that you will never sip the sauce again in your life, but can you say the same about your W dedicating herself to treatment for life?

Hi Atlas- I have been trying to stay updated with you. As it relates to Bipolar/Manic-Depressive disorder, I surely can't claim to be an expert but I am getting very recent experiential credits in dealing with a roomate who has a rather severe form of this. It is for sure treatable and can be pretty well effectively managed that way but not without an awful lot of difficulties. The difficulties I think lie in the fact that it may take a while to arrive at a proper medicinal formulation and then the most troubling and extremely common situation is that sufferers of this routinely go off there meds during the manic cycle. During the manic cycle of the illness, you feel so exceptionally good about yourself that taking meds seems so passe and unneeded and interfering I guess.

As I have mentioned on my own thread, I am as patient a person as they come. I have fairly minimal exposure to this young guy with the Bi-polar (and he has ADHD as well compounding matters)and it has been a helter-skelter experience in being around him the little bit that I am. The moods of these people can turn on a dime. It is a battle that I do not envy either the person with it or the loved ones deeply affected. That's as much light as I can shed on it.

You make some interesting points regarding the potential hypocrisy of the matter.

Glory be to God. Peace be with you my brother.

So I get out of a couple of meeting and W has called a few hours ago. Check the VM, of course she says that she needs me to call and it is urgent, but she never says what for.

I call and she needs me to watch S for an hour and half tonight since she has to go into work. To which I reply I am business tonight and I can't, which I am. She sounds all huffy and promptly says "fine, goodbye."

I just can't believe that I make the smallest requests, such as needing S's SSN, and she can't help in any way shape or form, but she needs something larger and I don't do it, then she is snappy. Actually I can't believe she has the gal to call and ask period.

Oh well, her problem not mine. I don't need her help with anything else, my life is squared away and I'm not bothering with her anymore.

This actually made for an amazing weekend. I went dancing and had a blast. Sober friends are so much more fun then drunk friends. We had a ball. After this weekend, I'm just realizing how bad W has always treated me, and how it's just more of the same.

Originally Posted By: Atlas

I just can't believe that I make the smallest requests, such as needing S's SSN, and she can't help in any way shape or form, but she needs something larger and I don't do it, then she is snappy. Actually I can't believe she has the gal to call and ask period.

Welcome to my world - I usually don't ask much of my W, because I figure I'm better off if I figure it all out on my own. On the other hand, whenever something bad happens, or she needs help, she'll come to me. Last time I tried to 'brush her off' and see if she'd deal with it on her own, it blew up pretty spectacularly in my face. I was able to fumble my way through and level things out again, but it was a mess for a day or two.

Of course, now my W who told me a while ago she doesn't want me around, doesn't trust me and doesn't want to deal with my crap has taken on the job of decorating my house. Not the "You should buy these curtains" thing. She actually went there and started painting while I was out. I didn't mind - She did a good job, and I hate painting $\:\)$

You just have to let as much of it go as you can, or it'll drive you insane.

hey atlas
read some of your sitch & can identify with your feelings. I am also getting out & having fun,sobriety rules, when im out around other single people my age & interacting in a healthy fun loving way I feel alive & just dont feel that way around my wife, at least not anymore. so on days like today, when i am missing her i have to ask, what part of the dishonest, cheating, disfuntional relationship do i miss? stay positive & best of luck to you

Well the M will be over shortly. She signed the settlment agreement and turned it into the court last week. I couln't feel more relieved at this point.

We just got into it on TM, after her call, she TM that I needed to bring by the child support after work. I told her no, and said she could come get it or get it tomorrow. She started cussing me out, so I said well now only half will be ready tomorrow, to which she stated I'm court ordered to pay it. To which I replied half on the 5th, half on the 20th. Shut her up real fast.

Then I said just sign the settlment you don't deserve me, and I'm sick of your games. To which she informed me that she already did, and then called me a bunch of things. She quit when I said no reason to be upset you got what you asked for, so now move on with your life.

I just feel good to be done. Hate that it is so confrontational, but she doesn't get to use me anymore.

Wow what a turn since the last time I read your thread. Sounds like you're on a wild ride. Good luck. Glad to see you feeling strong and empowered.

Originally Posted By: Atlas

I just feel good to be done. Hate that it is so confrontational, but she doesn't get to use me anymore.

I too am anxiously waiting for it all to be done. At least my W is not so confontational - she is just a sad wreck right now.

After the D is official, just try to turn the other cheek sometimes. I hate to tell you this, but you probably have many more confrontations with her over the years. Anything bad that happens to her, she probably will blame it on you. Just prepare yourself to expect it and stay happy. Who knows, maybe you and your next special lady might get some chuckles from how your ex-W acts.

Well it sure explains the silence since the 28th, and also why she didn't show for the 30 days, etc...Boy she called me a lot of names on the TM after I said she didn't deserve me, but she signed the settlment that I proposed so I won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Hey atlas,

So its done,,, I await the day of mine to be done, i think it will be a huge monkey off my back, but i dont deal with the crap i did a month ago after our first day in court and my attorney pounded the W and her attorney i think she knows its not going her way. Still waiting for you to visit dallas....

As odd as this sounds, I feel like a weight has been lifted off my chest and I can breath. I physically feel this way. Mentally, I'm really excited about the future. I didn't do much changes to the house because I didn't know if I could keep it, so I'm planning on some color schemes a kitchen table and some small things I can afford right now. I'm going to start fixing some things that are broken. I didn't bother before since I thought I would lose it.

I think I have managed a way to figure out how to bring some more income in, so that I won't need a roommate. That will be nice with S here so much. I don't want to worry about him touching or breaking someone elses stuff, plus if they are bringing women home with him here, etc...

The future is so bright, I think I gotta wear shades. I don't know how to explain it, I just feel like a caged bird set free. I'm sure I'm still dealing with the shock of it all, and there will be down days, but ya know, life is what you make of it. I know there are good women out there, you have all shown me this, and I thank you females for showing me such great examples.

For those of you guys that are out there, you can be a man, and still cry and hurt. Confide with the guys, I think that is important. Hug someone everyday, tell those around you that you love them and care for them in thought, word, and action. Don't be afraid to show some emotion.

All I can say is I'm so grateful for what I do have. I have an amazing life and it is only going to get better. I feel horrible for the hell that my W now must go through. She is truly distraught, and even after I said to not be upset over her decision she got what she wanted, her freedom, she gave me a go to he((. Oh well, guess we can't be friends for a while. Someday this will change. That will be nice.

Well I'm on the market. Just kidding, I'm just going to go have fun. I plan on staying away from purposeful dating for a while, i.e. joining websites etc...I'm just going to go out and enjoy friends, smile and see where life goes. That is so cool to think that I don't have any clue what tomorrow will bring.

I'll keep in touch with a close friends here, and post a little when I can, but it is time to ramp it down and wrap up the D. I'm going to still try and help her, she is the mother of my child, but she gets no more special treatment then that. Lots of boundaries need to be set now.

I'm truly grateful for all of you. Without this site, Micheal's words, your encouragement, and this BB, I would be in the darkest place. I went through that hole and never want to see it again. Alcohol and depression had a huge grip on me. I wasn't a great DB'er, but in the end I did it all for me, and I'm happy. So for that I thank you.

I also want to say, it's not I'm giving up or throwing in the towel. I'm just going to be me, and whatever comes my way R wise will only be that much greater. Maybe one day she pops back into my life, maybe not. For now I wouldn't want it. But I am and will continue to be a better person for having gone through this. I have learned so much. Women truly are a gift from God for us men. They can give you that feeling that makes you float on air, but they can rip it away just as fast if you don't cherish just how wonderful they truly are. Be kind to the ladies in your life, notice the little things, the hair the kind words, comfort them and be their rock. They will lift you higher then you ever thought possible.

Good luck to all, Elvis has left the building!

Atlas -

Don't know if you'll get this, but you will be missed around here. But atleast I am glad you are leaving in the spirits that you are.

Stay away fm them other spirits . .as you know.

Best of luck in your continued growth. And that young boy now has a transformed awesome Dad.

Wishing and praying for bright tomorrows for you and your loved ones.