Married 14 years, 2 kids 11 and 7. Wife filed divorce Jan 07. Frequent arguemnts over silly stuff and she used to threaten divorce each time. I *always* wanted M to work, go to thearpy, courses, etc. but none of this worked for her. Looks like she had been in an EA for over a year before that and was plotting and planning while I was clueless. She was out to destroy me completely. While my top priority has been to save the marriage I have also tried to stand up for my rights of custody and finances with my lawyer's help, examined my shortcomings, and reached out to her in several ways. She was ordered out of house by the court in June by the efforts of my lawyer. I have been *struggling* a lot emotionally since Jan and financially since Jun - I used to be more of the *saver* but now almost all my paycheck is gone immediately. I have 50% custody of kids. Went to Retrovaille in July - she agreed to come but when there said it was to "make it easy to divorce" and she made a mockery of it. Read DR and had a phone session with a DB coach in July. After 6 months she's still full of hate, blame, guilt, anger.
I haven't been successful at DB'ing - it seems too difficult for me - tried going dark, detaching, etc. though I probably got taken unawares many times and made mistakes in this regard. With the kids and my work there's no time left for "GALing". I still have a sliver of hope because the decree has not happened though its getting very close. Hardly meet or talk with her. Last week she said she was willing to put things on "hold" and meet once a week for 2 months then 5 minutes later when I asked what her intention for doing this was she changed her mind and went back to the blaming, etc.
The hope seems cruel though I can't get rid of it. I'm still on the roller coaster of extreme grief. I would like to get a good handle on how to deal with my feelings and fiances from others who have made it thru' this difficult time. Thanks.
Hi,
I'm sorry to see you are in this situation but you're in the best place to come for advice. Forgive me if my responses are too simplistic but I don't know all of your sitch, however I think you need to get out the DR book and read it again.
Chapter 2 "Start with a beginners mind" you need to read this again and understand it. One of the mistakes we all make when we are in these situations is we try to solve things quickly based on our existing knowledge, it doesn't work. We need to clear our minds and get back to basics principles.
You say you've not been very successful at DB'ing, but you could be, you just need to re understand the principles and apply them correctly.
If after 6 months you say your W is still full of anger etc., then you need to look at what you are doing and do something different, because what you are doing now is not working or getting the right response.
Let me give you an example,
Last week she said she was willing to put things on "hold" and meet once a week for 2 months then 5 minutes later when I asked what her intention for doing this was she changed her mind and went back to the blaming, etc.
If your response was more to go along with her suggestion rather than to question her motives then I'm sure the out come would have been different.
Remember DB'ing will become a 24/7 activity until you get things moving in you favour. If things are difficult for you post on here with your daily journal and people will respond with good advice.
Take care
Lan: The reason I probed for her real intentions is that she did this sort of thing earlier only to make a fool of me. All she seems to care about is to get as much money from the settlement. I remember what was in DR ... but hard to implement for me.
Here's what she e-mailed the next day:
Please do not waste my time and yours. I have thought
about it and do not intend to pursue this further. The
Retrouvaille was a big farce and I never should have
agreed to go. It is more than patching up our
differences at this time, please do not make this any
more difficult than it is. We were together for 15
years, you had your chance. It has been 10 months
since I filed, please get over it and move on.
When I talk to her, her body language is interesting - looking away head down, shifty.
How small are the odds of R once D is filed? Once separation occurs with little face to face contact? How does one create the opportunity to meet face to face? How do you reconcile a hostile legal process with the possibility of reconciling? At what point do I give up hope? Even for those successful at DBing how long does it take? Each ones "sitch" is difference so generalizing may be difficult/misleading? Lots more questions ...
BTW Lanzo I read some of your thread and found it useful. Your W's anger/drama appear to be similar to some of what I've experieced. But good you've kind of got the ball in play; I'm backed up against the wall.
f2b - keep posting here. Journal, use it to vent feelings, whatever. There is an amazing amount of wisdom and advice to be found on these boards. I'm sure someone here has been where you are now and can help.
do you have family or friends that would be willing to watch the kids one night while you have them? That would give you a little break in the week and allow you a chance to GAL, even if it's just going to the gym or taking awalk. something you do for you.
What are some of the reasons she gave for wanting the D? For wanting to end a 15 year R? What caused her to look for OM initially? I see a whole lot of i tried and tried and she just wanted out.... why? This may help you to take a good look at yourself and see where you can make some changes. Be especially honest with yourself here. if not, you are not only hurting yourself, but your M and kids as well. We've all made mistakes here and there and are all here to fix them.
good luck. hopefully with this bump, someone with a lot more experience or a similar sitch will chime in.
Ann, thanks for the bump and taking the trouble to read my thread and ask these questions. I'm begining to feel a lot more comfortable here tho' the outlook seems very bleak.
No family within 1,500 miles. I've used an elderly couple friend and a sitter occasionally but only when absolutely necessary. I'm going to have to get more creative on this and maybe work something out with other single parents or something like that to keep costs down. As for the gym, I've not had time to go even once for the last 2-3 month.
Her reasons: unhappy every day of the 15 years; she gives every reason under the sun mostly baseless labels that attack me - she could not fight "fair". I now think she may have been depressed a lot since S7 but never really sought help - I misread this as laziness/disrespect/carelessness/anger. But overall she felt trapped, controlled, criticised and says she wasted 15 years of her life, etc, etc. Some of this I may be able to do something about by changing myself or how I interact with her which I'm more than willing to do and I know it is possible because I'm far from perfect. But a lot of it probably originates within her - in this respect its the classic WAW - she has to be committed and want to be helped. My being out of work for an extended period and S7 doing badly at school also contributed to it - but at least these things pass.
The BIG mistake I made was reacting or getting annoyed with her behavior and hoping things would improve with time. I did convince her to come to MC some years ago but she walked out of the counseling after several sessions and got angry with the counselor. That's about when she started threatening D quite frequently for silly things - each time it felt like a knife thru' me. But I was too afraid to try MC again unless she wanted to.
OM helped her with a flat tire in the church, she started meeting him for lunch, or at the church, talking on the phone, they flirted and he gave her a sympathetic ear and she ended up asking for help getting a divorce because she found out he had some legal background and seems so "kind". She apparently went around complaining about me to all and sundry till she happened upon OM - I came to know of all this about 2 years too late after she filed the D - till then she kept it secret. But I found out more about OM from the pastors who see him in general as a wierdo and a trouble maker. Strange that in almost all of the WAW cases there's an OM involved. Meanwhile for 1-2 years prior to filing the D she started working almost full time where from what she's been saying I'm supposing she interacted with some casual "enablers". There also happen to be a lot of divorced Mom's at the kids school and she had plenty of time to get their "advice" on divorce.
Sorry its so long ...
I'm still hoping to hear more from more experienced people because it feels like I'm in this deed, dark limbo. I think I've given enough background info, at least for now so I'll take a shot at journaling on ann's suggestion an see where that goes.
I'm taking the kids to TX for X-mas week - got OK from W by email. Today D11 called to ask when we're coming back (remember she's the medium of communication). W then comes on the phone and rudely asks for details of the cub scout events next week which I'd already e-mailed her last week and I didn't have in front of me - I politely reminded her of this but she sounded hostile as usual.
I also got a letter from her lawyer today. Letters have been going back and forth for several months now where she is making unreasonable or unsubstantiated claims for more money. A LOT of money is with the 2 lawyers' trust funds waiting for settlement which hasn't happened due to her bickering. This "trust" money is what she cleared out of our joint account, what she owe's me for our new car she claimed as her own - the judge ordered her to pay all this back in April which she hasn't yet done. What I owe her for the house which I paid out by the stipulated date but my lawyer does not want to release it till all the accounts are squared away. I have submitted spreadsheets, bank statements, cancelled checks, etc. so on my side everything is substantiated. I'm getting sick and tired of this but it does not seem like a good idea to give in because these are large sums of money and I'm cash flow negative.
Please advise ...
F2b,
I'm not sure what happened but the last 3 or 4 post with some important stuff on have disappeared into cyber space.
Can anyone technical advise ?
Yes.
The book you mentioned is not recommended nor references permitted on the board. The author goes by various names and many of the techniques are destructive to relationships. The discussions therefore confuse folks trying to DB effectively.
He does mention Michele's work, but takes off on a completely different direction.
Hope that helps your understanding.
fb -
I haven't been successful at DB'ing - it seems too difficult for me - tried going dark, detaching, etc. though I probably got taken unawares many times and made mistakes in this regard. With the kids and my work there's no time left for "GALing".
I used to make those excuses, too. My best advice came from Michele: 'Don't give yourself an out'.
Just do it.
You can.....and it feels great when you do.
Several messages from yesterday are also gone - from ann25, lanzo and Atlas. Any idea what happened?
Looks like I've draw a blank here with a whole lot of messages going away for no apparent reason.
Ann, Any idea why your note from yesterday disappeared? It seemed to me there are nothing in it to warrant it being intentionally deleted - so for now I'm assuming it was some mistake or technical glitch.
But I hope you remember the context. W got back to me by e-mail with the details after meeting D11's teacher - the tone was fine. Any suggestions on where to take it from here in order to create face to face meetings as Lan suggested without the perception of pressure or pursuit?
When the messages with the above mentioned references are deleted, anything that was 'reply to' with those messages go with it.
There was just a passing reference to *******. But a whole lot of important, thoughtful messages by several people including ann25, lanzo, Atlas that had absolutely nothing to do with this reference were also deleted. This was a good part of my thread and took a lot of people's time to create and I'd hoped to refer back to it many times. I'm disappointed now ;-(
sgctxok,
Please don't delete this post to FB2, I won't reference the unmentionable. On a side note, it may be helpful to have a tag up top that says DB'ing doesn't endorse or doesn't necessarily agree with x, while we have found these list of books helpful. Maybe a good list and bad list.
FB2,
I remember some of what I wrote, so let me try and recreate the post. You need to start to examine feelings and thoughts of all parties involved.
First your W: She is resentful, she feels she has reached out to you, served you, etc...for 15 years and to what result? To a result that she feels spent and has anger and resentment. Then OM comes along, validates her feelings, gives her the EN that she has been missing. Well she isn't the "type" of person that would have an A, in her mind. So the guilt is killing her, eating her inside. So what she does is direct it at you, he did this to me, he made me feel inadequate like a slave, and her anger builds. So she tries to push your buttons, which person could do it better so be carefule, and if she gets a reaction then she gets justification for her feelings for OM and her actions. So no matter what don't react, don't give her that satisfaction.
Now the OM. For his this is dating, I know this is hard to remember, but it is playful and fun. Your not looking for a life, a wife and kids, just someone fun to hang out with. Then as things become more serious, you get drawn in. Well if you interfere then they have to chance to ruin it themselves. She will always wonder if she missed out on her romance of a lifetime. So don't ever ask, don't snoop, don't bother. What will happen, is as you don't react to her button pushing, she will become more and more guilt ridden. She will sit around and complaing to him, crying and whining how bad you treated her. Suddenly, OM sits back and goes what am I doing, I would treat you the same as well, your a downer a crier and I've had it. His friends will point it out. In a guys eyes, if it where your friend you would say, "hey man, this girl is emotionally unstable, what are you doing?" He will begin to question, then the fights begin the R will crumble. But this doesn't happen this week, this month, it could take 6 months to 2 years. You have to have your marathon shoes on.
You. You have to stay calm at all times. Women want to talk, they want someone to hear there problems without trying to fix it for them. They want to validated. She may tell you problems with you, that isn't initiating a door for you to fix, keep validating, and she will start talking about her problems at work, kids, school, etc. She just wants someone to listen to her. Be confident, calm and collected, act "as if" look your best. Well as you begin to build that trust even in the smallest interactions, the OM is ruining his with her. Why? Because why should he have to deal with your R breakup on her end.
So give it time, realize that GAL is necessary to ease your mind. Follow the techniques. Get that PMA, tell yourself your going to have a good day. It will change.
When this happened to me, I was in a decent paying job. Not what I wanted to be doing, but it wasn't bad. I finally left, because for weeks I sat there staring at the wall doing nothing. Then the day before I finally left, I went out all night drinking, pulled in the parking lot to take a swig, went into the bathroom to put on the clothes I had just picked up at home. Never slept that night. I was in the top 5 of a couple hundred person company. Couple of hours later, I'm in the hall way and caught in an imprompto meeting with the Pres, VP, and one of the IT guys I was out with all night. I lean against the wall with my hand and fell flat on my face. I was never confronted. IT guy says to this day they had no idea, but I don't believe it. I was so embarassed the next day I turned in my resignation.
Reason I tell you that story, is you think everything is hopeless. Well I now have W hanging out occasionaly, I was asked out today by a very attractive, but younger, women. I know that I will be more than fine if W goes, I don't want her to go, but if she does, I will be fine. Matter of fact, I'm now pushing for the D and will get it, she wants to work on things after that, but we will see. So don't beat yourself up. Do as I said above and things will change.
Hi fb2,
Now the OM. For his this is dating, I know this is hard to remember, but it is playful and fun. Your not looking for a life, a wife and kids, just someone fun to hang out with. Then as things become more serious, you get drawn in. Well if you interfere then they have to chance to ruin it themselves. She will always wonder if she missed out on her romance of a lifetime. So don't ever ask, don't snoop, don't bother. What will happen, is as you don't react to her button pushing, she will become more and more guilt ridden. She will sit around and complaing to him, crying and whining how bad you treated her. Suddenly, OM sits back and goes what am I doing, I would treat you the same as well, your a downer a crier and I've had it. His friends will point it out. In a guys eyes, if it where your friend you would say, "hey man, this girl is emotionally unstable, what are you doing?" He will begin to question, then the fights begin the R will crumble. But this doesn't happen this week, this month, it could take 6 months to 2 years. You have to have your marathon shoes on.
Hang on to this quote from Atlas, cos word for word this is has just happened with my W. OM has had his fun then binned W, I think W was looking for more than he was willing to give. W even had the gaul to tell me their last encounter was a disaster.
Hardest for me thing was to see her leaving with her overnight bag, and all I could do was to tell her to have good time. Now it's done she's full of guilt, doesn't know where to turn, and is looking for me to give her an out.
So you hang on in there
Hang in there fb2. Sorry the post is gone...
I remember the just of it, but couldn't rewrite it like atlas did. wish i had that kind of memory.
I know the point was limit contact to important stuff and you don't need to validate over and over. Calling her back to validate more is overkill.
As for getting a face 2 face, is there anything going on with the kids coming up? What are you all doing for the holidays? I think there are a lot of legitimate reasons to meet up and talk. It's just important to make sure it's a good reason otherwise it will seem like you are being clingy and just want to be around her.
for what Atlas posted... this is a great post to read and reread. The whole thing.
...OM comes along, validates her feelings, gives her the EN that she has been missing. Well she isn't the "type" of person that would have an A, in her mind. So the guilt is killing her, eating her inside. So what she does is direct it at you, he did this to me, he made me feel inadequate like a slave, and her anger builds. So she tries to push your buttons, which person could do it better so be carefule, and if she gets a reaction then she gets justification for her feelings for OM and her actions. So no matter what don't react, don't give her that satisfaction.
SOOOO TRUE! My H asked me for a D after a year where he put me down and hurt me... and now he wanted a D. I was hurt first, but i was pissed off. A couple months later i had an EA. OM said everything I wanted to hear. I could vent to him, tell him how terrible my M had been, blah blah blah. I got his attitude towards my H like, you are supposed to love me, yet here is OM that actually cares what i say/think/feel (he didn't, but he played it well). I took that frustration out on H. I was also guilty. I never thought I'd have an A of any kind. I lied and hid it. I wasn't being me and I was miserable on the inside. my family didn't deserve that and i had all this guilt from everything. In my mind, at the time, H started all this by treating me so bad, that it was his fault (alien mindset) and i took it out on him. Every time he'd get mad, it was just one more reason that i needed OM.
It is definately going to be a long bumpy road. Hang in there.
Yes.
The book you mentioned is not recommended nor references permitted on the board. The author goes by various names and many of the techniques are destructive to relationships. The discussions therefore confuse folks trying to DB effectively.
He does mention Michele's work, but takes off on a completely different direction.
Hope that helps your understanding.
Can you plz send me a PM of who this author is? Just curious on what to tell ppl NOT to read! Thanks!
Thanks everyone for restoring most of my thread from memory.
What I'd like to focus on and master:
1) Deactivating my buttons. There was a time I'd react angrily to her personal attacks but now I won't take it personally.
2) Validation and acknowlegement. Even if she insists the moon is made of blue cheese and I'm the most horrible man I will sincerely validate. I will thank and praise her at every opportunity.
... she feels she has reached out to you, served you, etc...for 15 years and to what result?
Exactly! Says she was a slave ... was unhappy very day of the 15 years.
Now the OM. For his this is dating, ...
If she's still meeting him its very secret ... the kids haven't seen him or heard her talking to him for a while now. She quotes other casual enablers though to justify herself. I don't go beyond what she tells me by herself.
You have to stay calm at all times. Women want to talk, they want someone to hear there problems ...
Have to create opportunities to meet her now. I've been able to do it 3-4 times in the last month using the kids as pretext. But I've got to be very careful not to pursue in any way.
Reason I tell you that story, is you think everything is hopeless ...
Exactly. I feel like my life and my kids futures are completely ruined emotionally and financially and I've been really beating myself up for not seeing this coming and doing something about it earlier. And I'm very afraid. Thanks Atlas.
As for getting a face 2 face, is there anything going on with the kids coming up? What are you all doing for the holidays? I think there are a lot of legitimate reasons to meet up and talk. It's just important to make sure it's a good reason otherwise it will seem like you are being clingy and just want to be around her.
Ann - there's the crisis with S7 repeating 1st grade and not doing as well as his teachers expect. They think he may have a learning disability and want to do some testing, etc. Also D11 was a straight A student last year but now is falling behind. W's amitious for the kids but not very objective about it all. So I've been using this as my reason for meeting. She keeps blaming the school, the teachers, me, etc. Since I have the kids Xmas week I'm taking them to TX for a family reunion (all my side). I wonder how she's going to feel. She will get a detailed trip report from D11.
It is definately going to be a long bumpy road. Hang in there.
Apart from the emotional rollercoaster the legal/financial side is very scary. She's getting easy money and is enjoying her "freedom" but I'm feeling the pain. So as far as the legal process I'm torn between slowing things down and accelerating it.
Hi Fb2,
The good news for you is that I'm gonna ride out this rollercoaster with you. The even better news is that I think you're doing ok and you're gonna get the hang of all this DB stuff. At the end of it all you'll be fine.
Validating: You're doing ok, just don't go overboard or you'll come across as needy. It's still ok to voice your own opinions.
W Anger: This is gonna be constant, she'll pound and she'll hammer you for any little misdemeanour. Stay constant, stay focused and don't react. Its tough but believe me it works.
She keeps blaming the school, the teachers, me, etc.
A good response could be "I know the teachers etc are failing, but what can we do to help the children". Then try and work on an action plan together with her, even let her think it's her idea.
Apart from the emotional rollercoaster the legal/financial side is very scary. She's getting easy money and is enjoying her "freedom" but I'm feeling the pain.
I was in the same position so I went to the bank who were able to help me. If we D I'll get money to pay it back, If we reconcile I'll have some explaining to do.
Keep going buddy we're right with you.
She keeps blaming the school, the teachers, me, etc.
A good response could be "I know the teachers etc are failing, but what can we do to help the children". Then try and work on an action plan together with her, even let her think it's her idea.
this is great advice. A great way to validate and try to come up with a solution.
That is hard when the kids are struggling. How long has it been going on? It could have something to do with the emotional rift between mom and dad. Kids are amazingly receptive to their parents. Even my 3 year old will ask me why I'm sad sometimes. I'm trying to act normal, but it's like they can sense it.
Not sure what finances are like, but would it be possible to get them into some counseling? i went when i was little for a couple different things and while i don't remember most of it now (i was 5-7) my mom said that it made a huge difference in all aspects of my life, school, behavior, making friends. Just an idea. this would also be something you guys could get together and talk about if you think she'd be receptive to it.
Not sure what to tell you about the legal/financial side. I do know that i have an issue with women that walk away and still expect their LBS to pay for everything. Not sure if it is like that here, but sounds like it might be. Best i can come up with is figuring out a budget between the two of you, yet another reason to get together.
ann
BEFORE you get kids into counseling....why not call Michele's office....her daughter is a child psychologist working with children of divorce.....and may have a lot of resources at her fingertips for children going through these things.
One of my best friends is a long time educator, and she says she hates to see kids get labelled LD so young. The advantage is if there is a problem, a diagnosis can help you get funding and resources. If you're not going to use those resources....those labels are often not true, and get kids 'labelled' or stuck.
Good luck.
You guys did a great job repiecing the posts.
That is hard when the kids are struggling. How long has it been going on? It could have something to do with the emotional rift between mom and dad. Kids are amazingly receptive to their parents. Even my 3 year old will ask me why I'm sad sometimes. I'm trying to act normal, but it's like they can sense it.
There was a lot of arguing during the last couple of years. If I said "up" she'd say "down" ... lots of yelling sometimes too ...
Not sure what to tell you about the legal/financial side. I do know that i have an issue with women that walk away and still expect their LBS to pay for everything.
Had to take a mortage of $300K to pay her off and monthly support of $1K plus she refuses to pay for the kids' school fees, etc. She has an "entitlement" mentality where I've got to be the "provider". She has a part (3/4) time job though. So I'm in the red as far as monthly cash flow while she is sitting pretty - globs of money going down the drain and this pisses me off but c'est la vie.
Lan, After W filed for divorce she tried to get me to leave the house by repeatedly hinting I go sleep in a neighbor's house, in the church rectory, share a room with her friend's brother, etc. I mulled over this for a few days and decided to stay put. I slept on the same side of our king bed as I'd always ... after a few weeks she started sleeping in the kids' room and then she was ordered out of the house by the court in June ... that upset her apple cart. When the court asked her about custody she insisted on 100% - when they asked me I said kids deserve both a mother and a father preferrably happy together - so they said 50-50 custody.
Sounds like King Solomons judgement, well done at least on this point.
fb,
Keep track of what your giving her as for money. Make copies of it all and keep the records.
I've been thinking about your sitch and how we can achieve some contact. So could you post up what type of contact is occuring, who is initiating it, how the contact goes, your perceptions of why, and is there follow up by either party.
What I'm thinking is depending on what you say, maybe some mystique is in order. Lets get her mind running a little bit. Don't lie or anything, but you don't have to answer her questions.
For instance at one point, my sister had bought a new car and was visiting, unintentionally after I sent S out the door with W, she didn't come in. She was curious as all could be. Caught her driving by, called the next day with some lame excuse, asked who was there last night, "Oh, just a friend." Drove her nuts, she started to contact more and more.
Even making a new guy friend to go fishing with or something. W can't stand that I don't tell her everything about new friends, even when they aren't women. She thinks it's my new wing man to go out and pick up girls. Drives her nuts.
Not that you want to stir up negative emotions, but maybe it can initiate some contact, if she seems frustrated about it you can say it is just a friend, I'm not dating or anything like that, I'm still married. Then just leave it at that. Gives her some reassurance but doesn't let her read the whole book of you.
Had to take a mortage of $300K to pay her off
You have got to be kidding.
"A LOT of money is with the 2 lawyers' trust funds waiting for settlement which hasn't happened due to her bickering. This "trust" money is what she cleared out of our joint account, what she owe's me for our new car she claimed as her own - the judge ordered her to pay all this back in April which she hasn't yet done. What I owe her for the house which I paid out by the stipulated date but my lawyer does not want to release it till all the accounts are squared away. I have submitted spreadsheets, bank statements, cancelled checks, etc. so on my side everything is substantiated. I'm getting sick and tired of this but it does not seem like a good idea to give in because these are large sums of money and I'm cash flow negative."
THIS IS NOT PROFESSIONAL DB OR LEGAL ADVICE, THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION STEMMING FROM MY EXPERIENCE.
You need to request to have a third party take care of the money matters. My attorney took everything herself. My exH attorney took everything of his initially and was disbarred. His second attorney was great, I'd use him now if I could...for anything. They were both top attorneys from top firms in the community. You have more power than you think. Make sure your financial arrangements with your attorney are in writing. No matter how well you know them. Take care of yourself.
ANOTHER NOTE
Some judges frown on parents getting sitters during their custody time. Makes no sense to me...but while custody is an issue...I wouldn't do it. But when you don't have the kids...fit your workout in...and other stuff for you.
I've been thinking about your sitch and how we can achieve some contact. So could you post up what type of contact is occuring, who is initiating it, how the contact goes, your perceptions of why, and is there follow up by either party.
So far in the last 6 months I have been initiating most of the contact. Mostly e-mail to which she replies occasionally. Some phone calls some of which she initiated but its only when she wants something. I have initiated most of the face to face meetings and each time she has driven to my neighborhood on the pretext of talking about the kids.
Except for the last meeting on Tues of this week all the others have been disasters where she's ranted and raved and I've usually got up and left in hurt and frustration. Now I'm much more prepared to validate her insanity, not talk about M, R or C - so I'm more ready for it. But I don't want to be the one initiating these meetings and I feel time and money is running out.
Lan,
Thanks for the encouraging words. Looks like you are holding up with great discipline and making progress.
I've been spending the last few days with my family. The kids played with their cousins and did not seem to miss W at all so far but she talked to them on D11's cell on X-mas morning. No direct contact with W in the last 6 days, not even an impersonal e-mail.
There's a couple of women good (i.e., decent) friends of W's that I've been tempted to contact for the last several months but I'm been very hesitant.
Not sure what my next move will be. Still in very dark limbo. Not sure if I should expedite the legal process or not. Not sure its even worth trying to R at this point - seems impossible. Not sure about anything anymore.
Dude hang on in there, sounds like you're hitting one on those low moments. OK, so no contact with W for 6 days, feels tough cos I guess you thinking bout her and your sitch. Well, you need to get something going on to lift your spirits. I can't think of anything at the moment but if you can get yourself into a happier frame of mind the problems don't seem half as big.
There's a couple of women good (i.e., decent) friends of W's that I've been tempted to contact for the last several months but I'm been very hesitant.
Read my post, be careful cos you can get burned on this big time. I used to call W best friend and all I got were hints giving me bad news, the bad news was making me feel ill so I stopped. However, as I was seeing no progress in my sitch, I started calling her agin only to be give more news I didn't want to hear. So avoid this if you can. Actually, the last contact with W best friend was her calling me to tell me I was making an impression on W because after months of saying the M was done, W was now saying she was confused and would consider counselling.
If your not sure what to do just let things pan out themselves. If your not sure on the legal process, then leave it until you're thinking better. Think of it this way, don't push things, but don't fight it.
Things seem impossible now but they will get better, they will work out. Even if you D it's not the end, cos if you've DB'ed correctly you will be a better person and in a better place to move on with your life.
Keep on moving with the program buddy.
Found out at check in that connecting flight back from TX canceled by bad weather. Instead of an entire night at an airport and standby next day I got a confirmed flight 2 days later since anyway the kids were having a blast with their cousins and wanted to stay longer. W granted approval over the phone provided I let the kids stay with her 2 more days next week.
Anyway on the 6hr drive back from the airport W called me and was surprisingly friendly and chatted for quite a while. Complained about someone at work and a few other things and talked about her upcoming vacation plans, etc. I acted "as-if", validated and acknowledged. She was also concerned that I not fall asleep at the wheel. Again there was no personal attack and anger towards me ... not sure what to read into it ... but let's give this some time. So I'm slowly but surely getting into DBing mode ... now if only I can put a lid on the legal process and sort out the financial mess ...
I'm meeting with some old friends in a few days where the wife filed for divorce, lived on her own for over a year and then they somehow got back together again. She is going to give me the entire scoop in case it can help me figure out how to proceed.
More later
That's great. This whole process is about taking what works and doing more of that and taking what doesn't and stopping that. Sounds like some positive interaction between the two of you.
its awesome to talk to people that have been there and back in their M. I'm sure you are like i am at this point... taking all the advice you can get!
Hi F2b,
Sounds like W is relaxing a bit maybe she is taking her cue from you being more relaxed and acting "as if".
Don't worry if the anger returns cos it will come and go, but keep talking to her in a positive manner. Eventually you may find that she wants to put the legal process on hold so you can continue talking. So if you do discuss any legal stuff be cool and relaxed about it, even though you may feel as though you are being shafted. Remember the legal stuff and the money is the big stick she beats you with, lose your fear and she will stop.
Remember the legal stuff and the money is the big stick she beats you with, lose your fear and she will stop.
I've always been law abiding and financially responsible. So this is very scary whether I show it or not. How does one lose this fear?
I had a problem with W and money earlier in my sitch, this is how I handled it.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1196122&page=3&fpart=9It may or may not help you.
How does one lose this fear?
Are you prepared to lose your W (Yes/No)? Either way you act "as if"
Are you prepared to lose the money (Yes/No)? Either way you act "as if".
Just a thought.
Got back from TX. She called just when the plane landed and was again "friendly" - she did mention she got a ticket for leaving her car at the curb and coming into the baggage claim area - ordinarily I'd have given her a lecture for not listening and disregarding the rules but I did not comment. She did not ask me how I was going home with all the luggage but just picked up the kids and drove away. But the incident reminded me of what life was like with W.
Sounds good, keep those positive interactions going.
Some questions:
- While DBing would it be unwise to vent to friends/family about my frustrations with W?
- Would it help to get IC for the tremendous hurt that I feel? If so with what attitude/goals should I go into it?
fb2,
I wouldn't tell people what is going on. They will figure it out on there own, but the more people you bring in, it will only hurt you in the long run. My family is now pushing me to leave her completely. They just don't want to see you hurt anymore, and they get tired of your complaining and just don't want to deal with it. So the easy way out for them is to say, leave it behind, move on. Because that stops you from coming to them and for them having to deal with it.
Wow Georgia is just running over Hawaii. Crap.
Sorry in front of the tube. Hehe!
IC is a great idea. Go for it, and make sure you find someone that supports what your trying to do. I would spend the first session explaining what your goals are, where your going, and if they don't agree, find someone else. But it is a great idea.
D11 continues to be the primary medium of communication. I spent last night at a friends' place an hours drive away - the W had filed D but they got back after a year and a half before the D was final - effectively the H DB'd but he wasn't aware of DB/DR, etc. D11 wanted to know who it was so I said "a friend I used to work with". This will probably keep W guessing ;-)
But again I feel weary of staying in Limboland. W has not initiated any "meetings" and I've done so the last 3 times so not sure what to do next!?
Hi Fb2.
I confide in a co worker who went through a D 2 years ago and his W is on the point of re marrying. He regrets giving up on the Db techniques so he his fully supportive in my efforts to save my M. If you do need to confide in people keep it to a minimum. I feel I need to talk to someone everyday especially as feedback to my sitch is very slow.
At the moment you will still need to initiate all of the meetings, once W starts to like what she sees in you then she will make the effort, but be aware this could take a long time.
Life in limbo land is tough, frustrating, weary and tiring, I know all of these feelings, but the only way out is to live through it. GAL & PMA work hard on these. If you hit any lows where you feel like giving up just shout out on this board we'll be there for you.
Hi fb2,
Hope you had a good NYE. I know we are all looking forward to a fresh new year.
I would recommend not telling people extremely close to you. My mom knew, and was constantly bugging me about what was going on and why i was putting up with it. I eventually started telling her we were working on it and i would let her know if something changed. My sister just thought i should get a divorce and start over. She'd tell me "you're young and pretty and some guys love kids. you could find someone else better" God bless her heart, but she is so lost. like lanzo said, if you have to talk to someone (many need to) find a person that can understand what you are doing to fight for your M. Like your friend that you stayed with. He'd get that it's worth it to fight.
IC - definately recommend. It will help you deal with your issues. Might as well work those out now while you have the time.
Take care.
Thanks ann, Lan, Atlas - lots of wisdom here for me to process. Yes family thinks that D is so common these days and I should just accept it and move on like so many others instead of being in "denial". They thing W can't be trusted after this and their focus is more on the kids. So far I've got a couple of couple friends who are on the same wavelength as me and I'll lean heavily on them for the emotional and DBing part. My brother has been a strong support for the legal and financial part. I'll have to brace myself for a very long, lonely war and I hope the IC helps.
My lawyer has just issued a stiff ultimatum that W settle accounts rationally or she'll be taken back to court. She's been getting a free ride for almost a year now and its becoming more and more difficult for me so I think its high time she was taken to task on this front. I've avoided talking to her directly about this for at least a month now and would like to keep it that way. But if I meet her next regarding S7 she's going to hit me on this.
If W hits you with anger about the legal & financial stuff you need to stay cool. Then calmly explain that this is all part of the D process, neither of you want it but it has to be done for the financial security of all of you (including your young D). After it is sorted you both can get on with the other D & separation matters and discuss them in a friendly and civil manner. Also you both have to work together at co parenting.
If you take this approach you will project an image of someone who is at peace with the situation. Discussing the D with W means she can't fight you on. This approach will show you're losing the fear.
W called me this morning to report she was back early from vacation with the kids as a storm was forecast and the kids were not well. The tone was still friendly - no hostility - this has been the case for the 3-4 times she's called/met in the last month or so. I'm still not sure how to interpret this - either she wants to be closer or she's quite happy with being separated, free of me and financially well off?!
Have asked by e-mail for a lunch meeting to discus S7 but have not heard back. Meanwhile my lawyer has sent her a tough letter highlighting her false financial claims. Either she has not received it or she's not reacting to it, I don't know which? Not sure if the letter would damage the emotional side.
I've read this, will reply tomorrow.
Lan
Thanks Lan ... will look forward to your post.
I had a setback on the IC as the C that was recommended to me and whom I'd seen once a few months ago does not accept my insurance and is also going away for a month. Paying her in full for several sessions I'd need would be quite expensive. Its hard to find a good counselor - there are so many of them and most are not very effective - so this is going to need more research.
On a positive note I started working out today with weights. I also will do yoga and walking/biking. I'm skinny enough and don't need to loose weight. But even if this does not no anything to attract women or impress W it would be good for my health. I'm feeling better already with the muscle tone.
Hi fb2
The tone was still friendly - no hostility - this has been the case for the 3-4 times she's called/met in the last month or so. I'm still not sure how to interpret this - either she wants to be closer or she's quite happy with being separated, free of me and financially well off?!
W is in a zone with no pressure from you, and you are not pursing her so you need to keep that balance, keep her in that mood. Effectively you've dropped the rope and she's floating around in her new freedom. She's gonna do some more floating, maybe even some mad stuff before she comes back to you. So be prepared for some ups and downs. But keep talking to her and keep it friendly, even when it comes to money.
Hey, try this when you next talk to her, "I'm not sure when we can next meet, so can you schedule something which is convenient for you" this puts the onus back on her for your next meeting.
It's good that you are working out, it's good for PMA and self confidence. I stopped going out really when I got married. But since working out, buying new cloths, and hitting the town with new friend, the women are positively attracted to me. I'm like the me of 15 years ago. Unfortunately for them I'm not in a position to take advantage of it, but it's a great ego booster for me. Should work for you to if you try it.
Thanks Lan, Your suggestion worked like a charm! Just called D11 to find out how she's doing and if she's ready to go back to school. Asked to speak with W who agreed to meet Monday; W sounded like an angel (from hell of course ;). I too gave up the little I did outside after getting married. I like your rope analogy and ways of "taking stock" - maybe I'll paint the town red some day ;-)
I picked up the kids last night from W. Both were sick. S7 was too sick to go to school this morning so I'm staying home with him. I have nobody to help or babysit. So not sure if I can meet W today. Called her to give her an update. I think single parenthood short changes every member of the family.
W wanted to talk on the phone instead but I said its better we meet in person. Again not sure if she's calmer now because she's *sitting pretty* with a long rope and lots of cash in the bank or if she has *any* other better intent - too early to say. She still seems dictatorial, opinionated, judgmental, dismissive, stubborn, etc. which are all dangerous/imature personality traits in an R. Anyway these things are not in my control so will have to see how events shape up.
W seems to have just heard from the lawyers and is paranoid and a bit hostile again. She asked me if I've heard anything from my lawyer and I said what Lan advised and that I didn't want to talk about it further. She asked why I want to meet her and I said it was to discuss S7's progress at school, etc. Then she said "can't we talk on the phone" instead. So I said its better to talk about this in person but its fine if you don't want to meet and then she agreed to meet.
So I don't want her to think I'm playing games with wanting to meet her. At the same time the legal/financial stuff is really taking its toll on me and I may not be able to sustain DBing much longer - the two processes don't go well together. Either she (1) agrees to something reasonable soon (2) puts the D on hold or (3) I'll have to really tighten the screws in my own best interests, including but not limited to selling the house in order to get some resolution. I'm just thinking aloud ... don't really know the answer.
If W hits you with anger about the legal & financial stuff you need to stay cool. Then calmly explain that this is all part of the D process, neither of you want it but it has to be done for the financial security of all of you (including your young D). After it is sorted you both can get on with the other D & separation matters and discuss them in a friendly and civil manner. Also you both have to work together at co parenting.
If you need to take option 3 this is the approach you need to take. You can still maintain the best DB principles whilst protecting your self financially.
Met W and treated her to lunch today. When I met her a month ago at a cafe she refused to let me pay for her cookie so this is a change.
She was on topic and not hostile for the most part. I validated most of what she said but disagreed with her on just a few non-sensitive points. She attacked me directly at least once by condemning the Xmas present(s) I bought D11 - I did not validate this because it hurt, but I did not react either - later I thought I should have heartily agreed with her.
She commented on my sweater saying I could not have bought it someone must have given it to me - which was true since I hated shopping for clothes - but the point is she took notice I was well dressed. I noticed she still had on her wedding and engagement rings. Next time she's going to notice my muscles
She started to touch on legal and financial matters I just nodded and said a few ya's and OK's and left early saying I had to get back to work (too sensitive for now ;). I asked if she would meet same time next week and she agreed.
I have this urge to "talk" to people - esp. neighbors and school teachers especially when they say they "heard", are "very sorry", went thru' it themselves, offer free advice, etc. I trust if I say anything its got to be very positive and not anti-W. Anyone want to comment on how to conduct myself in this respect?
Met W and treated her to lunch today. When I met her a month ago at a cafe she refused to let me pay for her cookie so this is a change.
Good we can see small changes in her.
She was on topic and not hostile for the most part. I validated most of what she said but disagreed with her on just a few non-sensitive points. She attacked me directly at least once by condemning the Xmas present(s) I bought D11
Don't worry about the attack, she finding less significant things to have a go about. Tip, anytime she attacks you on a particular item, make a mental note, then correct it so it doesn't come up again. Oh, I also had the attack about xmas presents so I know where your coming from.
She commented on my sweater saying I could not have bought it someone must have given it to me - which was true since I hated shopping for clothes - but the point is she took notice I was well dressed.
This is good, dress well, smell Well at all meetings with W.
I noticed she still had on her wedding and engagement rings.
Don't read too much into this, my W has never taken hers off, even when she was with OM.
She started to touch on legal and financial matters I just nodded and said a few ya's and OK's and left early saying I had to get back to work (too sensitive for now ;). I asked if she would meet same time next week and she agreed...
All good especially you leaving early cos you've got other things to do.
I have this urge to "talk" to people - esp. neighbors and school teachers especially when they say they "heard", are "very sorry", went thru' it themselves, offer free advice, etc. I trust if I say anything its got to be very positive and not anti-W. Anyone want to comment on how to conduct myself in this respect?
Whatever you say bits of it will get back to W so your best approach is to keep your comments to these people short and light. Definitely no bad mouthing. Something like " Yes it's troubled times for W and I but we're doing our best to work things out amicably. Either way, D or R we will both be fine". Don't say you're fighting like mad to save things cos W won't want to hear that yet.
Dude, sounds like you're doing fine at the moment.
S7 is home sick today, 2nd day in a row. Thought he'd recovered enough but he insisted on staying home. Tried to reach W on this to get her opinion but did not get thru'. Have to work from home.
Today W called to ask what she should put on her W4 form for payroll tax deductions. I used to do the finances almost exclusively. Not reading much into it - maybe a subtle change in W or a trap given that OM (or is it now ex-OM?) is an IRS agent - some of the hostility she's shown in the past I bet has come from his "helpful advice". He was "kind" and I was "mean".
She bitched about how D11 had to sleep on a mattress with the other kids with her legs sticking out while at my brother's place (she was over 1,000 miles away) during the holidays. Typical W! Years of sharp daily jabs and ignorant, stubborn opinions wore me down to where I'd react in annoyance. But now I know to steer clear of these attacks. In recent years she has used D11 to throw extra dirt at me ;-) Any fun ideas to add humor to these situations so W gets diffused without blowing up? Or is this a trait she'll never outgrow?
Hi fb2 - You sound like you are doing a great job. Not everything is going to be perfect, but definite forward motion.
Good job in not reacting to Ws jabs at you. She is looking for that reaction. She needs to be able to justify what she's doing and everything you do wrong, is a point in her favor as far as she's concerned.
I guess it depends on the W, but if she's being bitter, humor may only make her think that you are making light of her issue. Maybe (in that specific instance) "i understand how that could bother you, but they really all had a wonderful trip so it wasn't really a big deal at the time." I don't know.
Keep rolling along. You sound like you are doing well and making some great baby steps with W.
Ann thanks - turns out I said something precisely along those lines and it shut her up so I feel reassured. But often I've not been so nimble and felt like putting my foot in my mouth.
I recall another jab that day that I was annoying D11 by checking her math H/W and asking her to fix mistakes. I think this is my duty after discussing it with her teachers and other parents who expect this. I'm concerned for D11 that W treats her too much like a "friend/confidant". I don't want to bribe D11 with goodies like W does but I don't want W to continue to use her as a leg to stand on and as a catalyst to attack me. I've been advised by some to seek C for D11 and then by others that she will resent me if I do as it will put a lot of pressure on her. I've also been advised to try to get W to go to "co-parenting" classes/counseling. But these are all very sensitive moves to make. Meanwhile I'm looking for some simple/positive/healthy way to handle D11 to stop this behavior without making her feel responsible for it.
It's so hard with kids, girls especially (i think) because this is a crucial time for them. While they will get influenced by outside sources, Mom and Dad are the primary teachers of basic life skills.
I'm sure your W treats D like a friend. She needs her on her side. D is going to be more inclined to want that. My dad did this with my sister and she really struggled with it, still does a little. Now, she hardly speaks with him because she can see (now that she's older) what was happening. You are probably trying to teach her to be responsible and I can't think of any 11YO that wants that. Definately keep doing what your doing in that regard. w is hurting D by doing what she's doing, so at least you need to be a good dad, like you are.
You might look into the counseling for D. I don't think she will resent you for it if you can make it fun for her. Find a woman, someone fairly young, a place that works primarily with children, so it is kid friendly. When i was younger my C had me draw pictures rather than talk sometimes. I know you don't want to bribe her, but maybe something like saying that after the C you all could go get some icecream or something. Think of it as rewarding positive behavior more than a bribe.
Thanks Ann - will have to choose the right time for D11's C. One change I made is to stop the weekly "allowance" for chores that W had instituted. Now I have non-monetary rewards for good behavior like going to a movie, for ice-cream, etc. The kids now willingly help me out in the house!
W just called to say she was sick and going to see the Dr - that's a change - I did not sympathize or it come across as being in "control". She discussed S7's progress - I validate a bunch of her comments - I then told her something funny S7 had done and she burst out laughing - another change - couldn't do this earlier tho' the DB "coach" recommended it 6 months ago. Until a month ago W would be either attacking me or in tears every meeting.
My friend, soon you will be able to pass on the knowledge of withstanding the anger of the WAW.
Lanzo
Thanks for keeping up with the saga Lan and for your nudges in the right direction. Of course I'm not assuming anything, jumping to any conclusions or celebrating anything significant yet. The whole thing could blow up in my face tomorrow like a bad Chemistry Lab experiment and even in the best case there's still a looong way to go! All I can say is I'm on board now with this DB science for whatever its worth. I'm a terribly persistent guy - a trait that comes in useful - but it could rub W the wrong way too.
W is quite sick with flu, etc. the last couple of days. She has to pick up the kids Fri evening - they spend the next week with her. I talked to her this morning and she sounded bad. I could sympathize with her, offer to keep the kids longer or to drop them off at her place. But I'm not sure if I should because it may set her off again - I'm trying to be as detached as possible while still keeping communication open. Any thoughts?
I just read my entire thread again to see if I've missed anything important. Thanks Lan, Ann, Atlas, Betterman ...
W is quite sick with flu, etc. the last couple of days. She has to pick up the kids Fri evening - they spend the next week with her. I talked to her this morning and she sounded bad. I could sympathize with her, offer to keep the kids longer or to drop them off at her place. But I'm not sure if I should because it may set her off again - I'm trying to be as detached as possible while still keeping communication open. Any thoughts?
Show your caring side on this one, offer to help her, if she turns you down then at least you can say you offered.
Hi fb2,
It's been good giving you advise and helping you find your feet, I know only too well how important it is in the early days to feel like you've got a friend who's guiding you along the way. I'll be around as long as you keep posting.
Like you I am afraid to celebrate small steps forwards because they can easily back fire on you just when you think your doing good. However I've been reading some of your other post and I think you've definitely got the hang of this DB stuff. Remember thought DB is just the framework we operate in, sometimes it has to be modified to suit our individual sitch.
So as you say there's still a long way to go.
Lan, W was receptive of me dropping the kids off. I also sent some stuff from the house that earlier she'd asked D11 to "steal". She actually called the next morning and left a thank you message on my answering machine.
What I'd like to focus on and master:
1) Deactivating my buttons. There was a time I'd react angrily to her personal attacks but now I won't take it personally.
2) Validation and acknowlegement. Even if she insists the moon is made of blue cheese and I'm the most horrible man I will sincerely validate. I will thank and praise her at every opportunity.
Time to take stock ...
So far I've focused on the above goals to do directly with W and looks like I've made reasonable progress for which I'm very grateful. I will continue along this path. I think underlying this is learning to "detach" from "everything" not just from W.
Secondarily I've started to dress better, go the the gym, meet old friends, read more books, etc. All these are not directly related to W but have propped up my self esteem and I'm grateful for the time and resources gifted to me in order to do this.
I'm still very scared of being "divorced", of the financial and legal burden, the future of my kids, loneliness, etc. when I dwell on these matters. But I'm too busy and somewhat detached to mope.
I don't know my next major goal regarding W and the D!? But again I think its got to be something where I work on myself to become a better person and a better dad, with or without W. So I will improve my empathy, kindness, generosity and courage.
I'd like to see W expressing a desire to withdraw the D and work on the M but that's a distant dream not a goal. Does anyone have good suggestions for positive, realistic, action-orient goals directed at W given where I'm now?
Lan, W was receptive of me dropping the kids off. I also sent some stuff from the house that earlier she'd asked D11 to "steal". She actually called the next morning and left a thank you message on my answering machine.
I would say you need to develop even more positive interactions with W, this kind of thing is a good start. Listen to things W has said to you in the past and turn them into positives, this is one example.
Anyone else any ideas ?
Lan
HELP!!! Tho' W has phoned me directly a few times, I've initiated *all* the weekly meetings in the last month mostly on the pretext of discussing S7's progress. Each time I schedule a meeting I sense some hesitancy in W - "do we really need to meet in person ... what do we need to discuss ... I'm busy with ... ?". Then I say "it's really up to you" and then she agrees to meet. So though she seems considerably toned down and the meetings have been positive I feel I'm in a danger zone unless: (1) W initiates meetings or (2) the agenda expands from just S7.
On the financial/legal front things are also still in limbo. W has been given a series of ultimatums by my lawyer but is still sitting tight. The lawyers really have no control. So either its (1) mutual agreement between the H and W or (2) it goes to court - neither seems to be happening and I've been patient for months. I'm reluctant to discuss these matters directly with W because she's been dishonest/unreasonable so far. So I've been mostly waiting it out instead.
I feel I've somehow got to take things to the next level if W does not take some positive initiative soon. But I don't know how. HELP?!
Hey fb2,
If it works keep doing it. W keeps turning up to the meetings so keep doing it. If she didn't want to meet you she wouldn't turn up. The object of the exercise is not so much the subject matter, but it's about getting her used to being around you in a non confrontational situation. If you want to change the subject matter or the pretext, listen carefully to her when you next meet. Is there something in the conversation that you could use as a topic for a further meeting. All the clues will be with her.
With all the legal stuff all I can say is leave it to the lawyers.
Your still doing good though.
Lan
Thanks Lan. Every so often it take some encouragement for me to go on and I appreciate your nudges.
Met W for breakfast this morning at a cafe. Sbe gives me a ride there in "her" car. I informed her about about S7s progress and what I had done so far to get him tested, etc. We discussed S7. She rambled on about other stuff - her work, the school, the teachers, etc. I listened. I validated. I listened.
Then she tells me that I'm looking more relaxed living on my own and maybe that's a good thing for me. I validate that too. Actually "her" new car was a sorry mess - littered with empty bottles, papers, food wrappings, credit card receipts, parking tickets, stains on the seats, and it reminded me of what life was like with her. I used to clean both cars of this stuff when she was around and it used to annoy me.
Then she starts harping on the legal stuff - she wants her final settlement, half my retirement and quotes numbers out of thin air. She hates her lawyer now (of course she hates mine more). I start to back off and tell her that I'm leaving all this to my lawyer. I try to bring the focus back to the kids but she kept going at it and tears started to well up in her eyes. I finally told her that I'm living in the red and may have to sell the house in order to make ends meet. But she kept at it. Things where heating up so I finally told her I have to get back to work and maybe we can talk about it later.
W is best friends with another divorced women who has a D12. They have been spending lots of time together over the last 8 months and think the world of each other and so what W is doing on the D front gets "validated. I hear about it from the kids and from W herself. Not a good sign.
So here's what bothers me most today. Tho' W has cooled off considerable over the last few weeks and is more amicable she seems still unrelenting on the D. It seems like what she wants is to settle things in her favor financially directly with me as the lawyers have not bought into her false claims. Should I ask my lawyer to come down hard, take her to court and finish it up? Am I on page 152 of DR!? I'm getting tired of her nonsense. I'd like to see some perspectives on this from experienced DBers.
Fb2... this is going to take time... "patience is a virtue" "good things come to those who wait" ...
Right now, she's probably thinking "this is nice, we can be friends through the D process" That's better where you were right? I know that my H and i were friends first and then i fell in love with him. Let her continue to see what a great guy you are and how far you've come. Friendship can lead her to remembering why she loved you in the first place. You just have to give her time. Obviuosly there are no guarantees, but it's certainly a better place than you were in.
hang in there...
Ann, Its hard to be friends with someone who's destroyed the family and seems to be saying its better for all concerned and seems to be using the friendship to promote this. She seems to be thinking - "this is nice, we can be friends ... maybe I can now get the money I want more easily ...".
Every which way I look there are divorced women and "counselors" who will probably casually validate whatever she's done. So I'm wondering if her cooling off comes more from these sources than from my efforts. In other words her ranting and raving was associated with the guilt of a WAW but after talking with a bunch of these "enablers" for months like the kids' teachers, people she works with, neighbors, etc. who feed her the usual lines: "kids are resilient ...", "its better for the kids there are no arguments ...", "you don't divorce your kids ...", "you'll feel better in time, I promise you ...", "you look good ...". Note I'm not even considering OM in the equation.
Sorry I had to vent a bit ... been taking it on the chin too long.
My W seems to be thinking the same thing - lets just be friends and she will get more from me. I kind of blew up on her this morning telling her to get her end rolling on the D. I told her I want to start seeing her stuff moving out of my house.
We both sound like we are married to the same woman.
Hey fb2,
Then she tells me that I'm looking more relaxed living on my own and maybe that's a good thing for me. I validate that too. Actually "her" new car was a sorry mess - littered with empty bottles, papers, food wrappings, credit card receipts, parking tickets, stains on the seats, and it reminded me of what life was like with her.
This shows you've come a long way and she's noticed. Keep showing her you're the great guy she's gonna miss out on.
It seems like what she wants is to settle things in her favor financially directly with me as the lawyers have not bought into her false claims. Should I ask my lawyer to come down hard, take her to court and finish it up?
Just let W know that all legal stuff will be sorted fairly by the lawyers, in the meantime you and her can still be friends (Grrr!!)
Hey just a though, next time offer to clean her car if she drops by sometime. (that will throw her for a loop).
Lan, As always thanks for the advice; today I had a bigger dosage of W.
Hey just a though, next time offer to clean her car if she drops by sometime. (that will throw her for a loop).
Makes for a good a good 180
Should add she ordered an OMlette (OM in the background? ;-) for breakfast and wanted to pay for it herself so I let her (loose rope remember). What's interesting is she put some of it on my plate saying it was too much for her. I ate some then she put some more on when I got up for a glass of water. I put it back on her plate saying it was too much for me and she finished it up. Six months ago said she hated me so much she wanted to kill me or kill herself.
She commented S7 and D11 where both artistic and she wondered where they got that from. I said I know where "from you!" and she glows and acts very modest. So we know her primary LL!
Also the meeting lasted an hour and she gave me a ride to work afterwards because she knows otherwise I'd walk the 1.5 miles or so. And I confess when she tried to bait me on the money and legal issues I did start to get hot under the collar.
Hi Lan,
I tried to contact you via PM but it says
"This user is over their private topic limit"
W called a couple of times today on a couple of minor things. I need to prepare for the kids coming to me in a couple of days. Otherwise things are rather slow, except that I'm catching up on other work that piles up when I have the kids around.
My auto insurance is up for renewal. W's car is on the policy and I have been paying the premiums for W for the last year. She has ignored repeated requests to get her own insurance and also to pay her fair share. So I have canceled the policy effective the renewal date and I'm getting my own separate insurance. I have notified W by e-mail so she has over 2 weeks to get her act together on this. I have a signed statement from her that she would get her own insurance from 12/1/07 which she did not do.
I hope this does not dampen my progress in DBing. But W has to realize there are consequences and its time I asserted myself and got down to brass tacks in separating my love for W from the financial mess she created. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Fb2,
Business is business and you've let W know what the score is with the insurance.
On the Db'ing front you carry on as normal. In your next chat with W you can let her know that you/lawyers are dealing with the legal stuff sensibly, but in the meantime you and her can still progress things in a friendly manner. This gets her to see there are two sides to events, legal stuff and personal stuff.
Fb2,
I here you on the finances...my W is not very good at that either. I agree with what you are doing, this should give her a little jolt...I bet I would have paid the premiums because I am such a sap.
Thanks Lan. After the e-mail she called a couple of times before I plucked up the courage to call her back. She found out that on her own she'll pay a much higher premium - no multi-car and home insurance discounts plus the buffering effect of my safe/senior driving - don't know what tickets she's got
So she tried to broker a deal where she continues on my policy and pays for it but I said its better she gets her own so she can pay directly not thru' lawyers; besides she didn't pay for last year why would I think she's going to pay for this year. She tried again and I said I'll think about it but meanwhile she should shop around because she's not covered as of Feb 7.
I then shifted gears to S7's testing, the wonderful weather, the bad economy and the presidential election. I agreed with her that it would be best to have a women president for a change and she approved. I tried to get her to meet next week but she pushed back so I did not pursue it.
On the Db'ing front you carry on as normal. In your next chat with W you can let her know that you/lawyers are dealing with the legal stuff sensibly, but in the meantime you and her can still progress things in a friendly manner. This gets her to see there are two sides to events, legal stuff and personal stuff.
It seems to me that each time things get a bit more cordial W brings up the financial stuff so she can get me to agree to something on the side; and I did do some of this for the sake of peace. I think both lawyers see thru' her BS tho' her lawyer is rather slow on the uptake and W has come to hate her and I think is a bit scared of the legal process overall since it came back to hit her. But yes one of my challenges is to make her see the two separate streams and hopefully focus on the the personal.
My lawyer is on maternity leave for the next 3 months. She has a substitute who an handle things. But I'm wondering if I should ask her to put things in a holding pattern now till she's back so I can focus on the 'personal' and tell W that things are on bold because by L is away. Any thoughts??
Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because s/he is hurting and scared.
W has cooled off considerably these days and I can talk to her directly instead of thru' e-mail and the kids. My fear is that maybe W has overcome the guilt, fear and negativity, and is quite comfortable where she is emotionally and financially. For example the kids tell me she has a 42" HDTV which we never had before. Perhaps her cooling off comes from association with "enablers" other than the OM - like the divorced woman she hangs out a lot with and others at her workplace rather than from my changes. She'd stopped going to church after she filed the D and still stays away. These are all bad signs.
Regardless I will continue with the LRT and the validation and try to be patient but now I feel the need to "read the tea leaves" correctly and move things to the next level if possible. I feel I need some goals and to make sure I'm making progress in the right direction. I don't want to be enabling W to go along the D path by what I'm doing. For example I'd like to see the day when W will mention R or even invite me into her apartment for some reason or at least initiate a meeting with her for some reason.
Is there anyone else in a very similar sitch? I hope more wise DBers in addition to lanzo will read my sitch and HELP!!!!
Sorry to keep popping up, but I did say I'd ride this roller coaster with you. (yes, I also felt the same frustration as you).
For example I'd like to see the day when W will mention R or even invite me into her apartment for some reason or at least initiate a meeting with her for some reason.
Err..... in my opinion you are still a long way from this, at the moment this would be a big ask of W, a big jump rather than a baby step. I think to get W interested in you, you will need to take an interest in her. Example, W's 42" HDTV, could this be a conversation point ? could you possibly talk to her on a level that she understands about the merits of the TV? If you got her excited about it do you think she would show it off to you. You see for W to invite you to her apartment she would need to see you as an interesting friend rather than her stbx and all the baggage that comes with it. Yes to make progress you need to become her friend (urgh!!!
)
Keep throwing different bits of bait and see what she bites on, see what get her interested.
Well that's my take on things I'm sure others could put it another way.
Lan, But for your popping up I'd have given up long ago. If you get a chance please also comment on #1331549 above. Thanks as always.
My lawyer is on maternity leave for the next 3 months. She has a substitute who an handle things. But I'm wondering if I should ask her to put things in a holding pattern now till she's back so I can focus on the 'personal' and tell W that things are on bold because by L is away. Any thoughts??
I wouldn't tell W that things are going on hold, I would more likeky ask her what her opinion would be to things going on hold, etc, etc (you fill in the blanks). This does a couple of things, it validates W by asking for her input, and it shows that you are handling a difficult situation with compassion. If W wants to plough on regardless then she should have no quarms about the final outcome.
Lan
Keep throwing different bits of bait and see what she bites on, see what get her interested.
Lan, I've been focusing on the S7 topic with moderate results; she's met with me several times on this; but I'm running out of ammo on this subject and I would have liked her initiating a meeting or 2. Have to be careful what other bait I throw out as it may appear pursuing or not worth her time. But as you suggest will try the TV and other triva just for size (did a bit of this over the phone last time we talked). However I'm tiring and my patience is being sorely tried that's why I wanted a realistic reading of where I'm at. From what you're saying there's a hell of a long way to go and I hope its not too much of a long shot. If anyone runs across a more similar sitch where someone has succeed please let me know so I have something to go by. Most of the success stories seem to have lesser odds where the couple is in D or S and not D and S. It would also help to have some input from women in these situations.
Hi fb2,
I've had a long think about this and this is what I've come up with, your W sees your changes, your new upbeat relaxed attitude, but what she doesn't see is you moving on. So at the moment she can chat all kinds of sh*t to you, but at the end of the day she still knows you will be there to take it. So to her you're still a sounding board, a doormat or a punch bag (ouch).
If I look into my sitch the two things which turned things round for me were me telling W that I was done with the M, and I was serious. The other thing was through my best pal I've hooked up with a group of guys who are real party animals, real playas, not my usual type of pals. This is something which has caught W attention so anytime I'm out with them W wants to know where we've been, what we've been upto etc.
What I am saying to you is W needs to see that you're out there again, you need to slip into conversation that your social life is on the up. OK I know money is tight but I think you need to show her that you can and will live life to the full without her.
Think about it.
Hi fb2 -
I agree with Lan - It's obvious that W sees that changes in you, that's where her change in behavior comes from. You are being nicer and more understanding so she is as well. Problem is I don't see you doing a whole lot of GAL activites (unless you just don't post much of that).
Read through the success stories. Look on the seperated/divorced forums and I think at the begining there are success stories. Those would probably be closest to your sitch.
This is a long road. You really have to decide if you want to go through with it because if you only do it halfway, you aren't going to see any positive results. I know you can do this. It seems hard and probably like a lost cause half the time, but it'll be worth it. Even if you never rekindle things with your W (which i'm hoping is not the case), how much better is your R with her now, then it was when you got here? Have you been doing some 180s? have you been doing stuff for you to make you a better person? Have you learned something about Rs in general. This is all good stuff. So, worst case Senario.... this is still a good thing to be doing. From what I've read, you'll know when you are done. For me, I'm going to be here for a really long time if it takes that, for others, there is only so much they can handle. How much time are the years you spent together worth now? 3 months? 6 months? a year? longer? that's up to you!
Hang in there.
For me, I'm going to be here for a really long time if it takes that
That's me. I think I could wait an eternity. In the meanwhile, you better find something to do other than think about the WA. And make it something you can live with permanently, otherwise you are just wasting your time.
Thanks Ann. It seems more that I see changes in W and I'm not sure what to make of it tho' I'll go with Lan's and your assessment for now that her changes are more a result of my changes rather than her getting comfortable with her sitch. But she is a tough nut to crack so if anything it will take me longer than most.
I don't GAL much because resources (time and money) are very limited as I have your kids I get every other week and I've got to spend all my time with them and in the alternate weeks I have to catch up on everything else. I do sometimes make it to the gym or to friends houses. But that's it - nothing wild like bars, dancing, dating, etc. which I don't much care for anyway.
Can anyone suggest something to do as far a 180, etc. ? I'm at a loss. I thought I'd lie low for a few days and see if she initiates the next meeting based on my efforts so far. But that's all I can think of.
In the meanwhile, you better find something to do other than think about the WA. And make it something you can live with permanently, otherwise you are just wasting your time.
Thanks jmw128. So far that "something" has been taking care of our kids and my job. No time or energy for much else other than occasionally meeting good family friends with or without the kids present. The kids are too young to leave alone. So I cannot do activities on a regular weekly basis (e.g., taking a class) because I have the kids every other week for the entire week; I have done some of this using a sitter but it gets very expensive and hard to arrange on a regular basis. No family anywhere close by. But fortunately my job is somewhat flexible so I can work from home when the kids are ill. But I do spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about the WAW and how I can improve myself whether she changes or not. Lately I seem to have made some progress communicating with her.
Love Languages ... I think W's is "Words of Affirmation" and "Gifts".
Don't know mine. W has been so hurtful for so long that any of these would work well: Words of Affirmation, Acts of Service, Physical Touch, Quality Time.
Some journaling for the MLK weekend ...
The rabbit ran away again and stayed out an entire night; don't know where he's been or what he did out there. The kids, myself and the neighbor chased him but he outran us. He came by the next day and I stood still with outstretched hands and he came right up and let me pick him up. Wish my WAW would do likewise.
Enjoyed having the kids but 'twas busy with chores and looking after them. We shopped, cooked, attended a cub scout meeting, watched videos, played some board games. D11 lost a tooth and the tooth fairy rewarded her. S7 gave trouble going to school today saying he had a tummy ache - had to drag him to class and hurt my back in the process - probably just got the blues from the long weekend but the teacher said she'll call if he's really sick. Called W to tell her about S7 - she was more concerned with fighting her numerous traffic tickets.
I'm waiting a week to see if W initiates a meeting with me. And "hanging in there" on Ann's advice. Other than this board most people including W have told me months ago to "move on".
Start with simple things, like go catch a movie or go to dinner. Also you can eliminate things that do not aid your pursuit of happiness. I made a lot of 180's in my life that have lead to me being happier, such as no internet gaming, a big help. Another thing that helped me early on is for any ounces of love I gave my 5D she would give me back 10 times that much.
I am so confident in myself now that I know I can push on if I do not have WAW. I also know that if WAW were to try she would see a new man worthy of her. Either way I win.
Hi fb2,
I'm waiting a week to see if W initiates a meeting with me. And "hanging in there" on Ann's advice. Other than this board most people including W have told me months ago to "move on".
If you took other peoples advice to "move on" what exactly would you do ? How would your behaviour change. Something for you to think about to.
Related to the above and something I've mentioned before, W doesn't see you moving on, maybe you need to give her that impression for things to change.
I know its a circular argument but again somthing for you to think about.
Lan
Thanks for your input!
If you took other peoples advice to "move on" what exactly would you do ? How would your behaviour change. Something for you to think about to.
Here are a few: I'd have go dancing and dating, sell the house and downsize, accelerate the divorce, stop DBing, ...
Related to the above and something I've mentioned before, W doesn't see you moving on, maybe you need to give her that impression for things to change.
Correct and I constantly keep this in mind. Some baby steps last 2-3 months: no R/M talk, don't always answer phone, I rarely sympathize, never suck up, holding firm on finances, learned to cook, focus on the kids who I'm convinced really LOVE their dad, ...
Perhaps W needs a 180-like high voltage jolt but I'm too cautions and at a loss for what to do
Also you can eliminate things that do not aid your pursuit of happiness.
Personally I'm a minimalist so this comes easily to me. W didn't always appreciate this however but I consider this a good trait in general so I'm sticking with it except I must not let it overtake generosity and compassion for others who do not think like me.
Another thing that helped me early on is for any ounces of love I gave my 5D she would give me back 10 times that much.
I can vouch for this. I have learned to be dad and mom to my kids. In fact the LLs apply to kids as well. It makes me more confident and gives me strenght to go on more than dating and drinking would do for me.
I am so confident in myself now that I know I can push on if I do not have WAW. I also know that if WAW were to try she would see a new man worthy of her. Either way I win.
I'll keep this in mind. My confidence is improving and that sense of shame/guilt/fear is melting away. The Ws will also have to do their part eventually to "win" us back or we'd feel like doormats.
OK, now I've got you thinking, here's what I think
Go dancing - Start now GAL
Dating - Maybe, at least boost you self esteem.
Sell the house and downsize - Not sure (of you financial position)
Accelerate the Divorce, - Possibly then let W slow it down
Stop DBing, - No, it's made you a better person.
Lan
Go dancing - Start now GAL
Dating - Maybe, at least boost you self esteem.
Sell the house and downsize - Not sure (of you financial position)
Accelerate the Divorce, - Possibly then let W slow it down
Stop DBing, - No, it's made you a better person.
I'm a reserved type, so dancing is a bit awkward; but I've done it occasionally to please W. I'm mulling over how to initiate dating - there's a lot of crazy, pathetic and needy women out there so I don't want to get in more trouble by jeopardizing the respect of my kids and the community at large. The house is now 100% in my name because I had to mortgage it to pay off W's share of the equity but the pay-off money is still in legal trust because W wanted more money for it so I've been tempted to call her bluff and sell the darn thing - this way she'll have to split the capital gains, realtor fees, etc. Last October W accused me of "stalling" so I contacted my lawyer and pushed the pedal to the floor. But it seems like W is actually the one stalling cos she's sticking with some ridiculous claims that are not going anywhere with the lawyers. The main argument of the "move-on" advocates is W cannot be trusted anymore and even if she came back she's cause irreparable damage and will most likely make my life even more miserable than before and may do/threaten the D thing again when she doesn't get her way.
My confidence is improving and that sense of shame/guilt/fear is melting away.
I can't exactly say I feel my guilt is melting away. I guess I have always felt that it was mostly my fault. BUT, I have made a lot 180's/changes, that I believe are best for me. That is what helped me. Knowing I will never be that person again.
I can't exactly say I feel my guilt is melting away. I guess I have always felt that it was mostly my fault. BUT, I have made a lot 180's/changes, that I believe are best for me. That is what helped me. Knowing I will never be that person again.
I talked to a pastor early on about the guilt feelings. Felt strongly I'd failed in many ways and not done all I could have. But he pointed out that none of my actions or lack thereof were intended to hurt. In fact a lot of what W took offense to was specifically intended for the long term good of the family. At any rate I think it was mostly W constantly on the attack and my lack of patience/skills to deal with it by validation of her feelings and by being more assertive in these situations. Instead I became reactive, frustrated, irritable and angry.
jmw128 if can look up my sitch and suggest some possible 180's to add to Lan's list I'd appreciate it.
W called several times last night and I did not answer. Twice to my cell phone and several times to the land line (I inadvertently had it off the hook apparently). I called her back today.
No indication yet she wants to set up a meeting. She talked about whether I'll be able to get my own health insurance as I'm currently on her plan. I told her about a wisecrack from S7 . She called again an hour later to talk about the upcoming presidential primaries: she's for Hilary, so again I listened, I validated. No mention of lawyers, D, R or M. I then said I need to get back to work.
I feel about W the way I felt about the rabbit when he ran away(see above). Anyone care to comment on where all this is going?
No indication yet she wants to set up a meeting. She talked about whether I'll be able to get my own health insurance as I'm currently on her plan. I told her about a wisecrack from S7 . She called again an hour later to talk about the upcoming presidential primaries: she's for Hilary, so again I listened, I validated. No mention of lawyers, D, R or M. I then said I need to get back to work.
I'm having difficulty understanding WAS who do the whole 'I don't want to work on the M, but I'm not working to kill it either'. I'm in a similar position - W is very pleasant, friendly and we have a lot of fun together, but she won't work on the M, yet she isn't moving forward with a D or even legal separation.
It's very confusing, but I figure it's probably better than her going full steam ahead with a D. At least your W sounds like she's not in a rush to make a decision.