When do the tears go away ? - DivorceBusting.com

Well,
It's a year now and the divorce is final in a week.
I have done most of the DB things, GAL, 180's, and yes, I have backslid.
I have become the most incredible father to my 2 kids. I was not so involved when I was with my W. W has noticed the changes. I went to therapy for 7 months to work on me. I have read every relationship book I can get my hands on. I have trekked to the base of Mt. Everest, bought a Ducati motorcycle and am in the process of putting together a very large environmental campaign geared to kids (giving back).
My W and I have new houses. We share the kids and all is as good as it can be. There lies the problem.
My W and I get along well, but only see each other once a month. I have stop pursuing and only respond to her emails about the kids.
I sat with my W yesterday at a Christmas concert for my daughter.
My MIL and FIN have contacted me recently to say how great of a father I am and my MIL commented how great of a nurturing mother I have also become to my kids. The see how many great experiences I do with my kids.
So..........after all of this. I miss my family more than I can put into words. I know I should be grateful that my situation is as good as it can be but.........I miss them all. $\:\($
I don't want this life, I want it all, like everyone else.
$\:\($
My W is texting me right now about a funny story about our kids.
I screwed up some stuff when we were married and did everything humanly possible to fix it all and I did.
My W has not said a word about anything since she left other than she fell out of love. She has been "dating" but that is all I know. From what I hear it's not so easy for her to date as she has 2 kids.
Just hurting this morning. I tend to hurt more when I am in contact with W as it's so nice and there is no tension. I just keep asking myself why are we getting divorced? There is no reason, other than my W does not want to try to fix anything. BTW we never went to counselling or anything. She just got up and left.
She has shown signs of a MLC but I think she is more of the typical WAW.
Miss my kids so much !!

I am still holding out hope but just don't know what else to do but to continue to move forward. I wish I could get to the point of not liking my ex W for what she did to the family. The problem is that it was the best thing in my life that ever happened to me. It made me finally change everything and become an appreciative, caring, loving person. I was so caught up in negativity and selfishness before this.
As you all know, it's so hard to finally break all the chains in our lives and want so badly to love our family and have them love us back.
I am not saying anything new here that all of you have not heard and/or experienced yourselves.
I guess I am just trying to reach out for a little support and kindness. I am so exhausted this morning.
I am looking forward to Christmas with my kids. I have them on Christmas forever as my ex W is Jewish.
What is also really hard is that I see some changes in my W as well. Some of the things that are important to her now were not appreciated by me when we were together. Now, since my awakening I whole heartedly appreciate them now.
Sadly since my W has not made any attempt to spend time with me she does not know of some of these change of hearts.
She really has done everything possible not to spend time with me as I guess she just has moved on.
So as my divorce is final in a few weeks I would just like some support from the board.
I am so appreciative of this board and read it everyday.

whitneypinch,

So sorry to read your sitch. Much of your story reminds me of mine down to the differences in ages between you and S and the ages of your children, but of course there are differences. In my situation, I cheated on my wife and due to the other difficulties in our M, she responded by pushing through a divorce. I tried everything to reconcile, including DB, but to no avail. She is not open to reconciliation, and as of today, she still has not forgiven me.

I, like you, have have made wholesale changes and continue to make changes in WHO I am since we split almost 3 years ago. Although I do have my children with me about 45% of the time, I miss my children terribly whenever I am not with them. I have watched from afar the string of BFs since we split. My big issue with the BFs isn't so much that she dates, it's that she introduces these men passing through her life to our children and is not portraying herself as a good role model to our D8 and S3.

One other difference is that I see XW on a regular basis. XW will call me out of the blue (like at 11:25pm last TH), under the premise of missing the children, to tell me that she "misses her family" and asks me if she can stay the night in response to my question about what is going on with her. In case your or anyone else wonders, no this is not the first time this type of scenario has happened and whenever she has come over she sleeps in my bed with one or both of our children while I take the couch.

The downside of this, is that shortly after she 'uses' me for her purposes, she acts out by expecting me to approve of her not-so-well-thought-out decisions in making decisions for our children, and when I don't approve/agree, she lashes out childishly. How I have learned to deal with her pissy reactions to chalk up ALL of our interactions rationally, without emotion and without reading anything into any of our interactions. A positive interaction is just that. A positive interaction. A negative interaction is the same, just that. A negative interaction. Saves me from beating myself up through my own mind reading, which is always negative.

What I can also offer to you is to focus on your children's well-being. Help them to become healthy, happy and whole. I have the wonderful role in life of being the children's father, as do you. Continue to work on yourself. It sounds like you are making great progress and your children will most definitely benefit from the 'new' you, as will you. I have plenty of people in my life who are the negative naysayers about my efforts to reconcile with XW. I understand where the people who care about me are coming from by cautioning me away from XW after all that we have been through, but I see hope and possibility. I see my work to inch closer and closer together over time so that we will be husband and wife again. So that we will be a whole family again. So that my children will not live their whole lives in a broken home.

Additionally, I have taken to deepening my faith with Christ. I have participated more in my church and have gotten to know more people there. I don't know how mature a believer you are, but I do know that wherever you are spiritually, you can still grow in your faith and grow closer to God. All of what I've done up 'til now is just a start, but it helps to feel connected, grounded, and accepted, especially when I often times feel none of that when I am alone.

Lastly, for me that pain has become less pointed over time, but I still feel it. I try to keep the entry point of the spear of divorce numbed so it hurts less, but I still feel its entry and it still hurts. Prayer helps me through understanding that God has given me tools to assist in reconciling my marriage, but he leaves it to me to soldier on and do the work here on earth. Ultimately, I know that I must make God's will my will, and not the other way around. I ask the Lord to help me to understand His will if it is different than what I want, to help me to turn away from my efforts to reconcile with XW if they are, in fact, against His will.

I wish you well, my friend. Continue to post regularly, if for nothing more than to 'talk' and to clear your mind. I will pray for your and yours. Be strong. Re-read your DB and DR, if you have copies. I understand that you don't see your soon-to-be XW often, so focus on making the time you do have to interact to be positive, fun and inviting. Lean on friends and family who support you and are positive towards you. You will need that. You are not on this long journey. Pray, focus on your children, and do positive activities for yourself. Good luck moving forward.

Tom

Thank you soooooo much for responding Still Hopeful.
I think all my friends and family are done with hearing about the situation so I appreciate anyone talking to me about it.
I have become such a fantastic dad to my kids. It's not something I had growing up with my parents. I too am from divorce. My W is not.
I had to really grow into being a dad and now it gives me the greatest joy on earth.
A few weeks ago I backslid and snapped at my wife over something. It was the first time in a year.
She snapped back and I told her I had to get something off my chest.
I wrote that I was so frustrated that despite me working non-stop to improve myself, my family and my marriage that nothing matters at all. I told her that when I was doing all the wonderful experiences with the kids that I wished she was there with us. There have been so many firsts with my kids that she has missed. My kids love her, but tend to want to do all the cool stuff with me.
She unloaded on me like I have never seen. She basically said that this is all my fault and the selfish little bubble I was in when we were together caused her to fall so completely out of love with me. She then said that because of this I would have to live with this for the rest of my life. She said she has no guilt whatsoever and that when she is with the kids she never thinks of "the family with me in it". Her memories are all negative and that there is not a single good memory of us all together as I was so stressed out and negative all the time. I was stressed out and negative. Of course all things that I have addressed and fixed through therapy and this big wake-up call.
It was pretty hard to take, especially after a year of me doing everything in my power to become the best person I could be through therapy and reading.
I validated what she was saying and she calmed down immediately. It turned out to be on the day after she signed the final divorce papers.
It's just so damn hard as I have so much love for her and things appear to be calm. She has said she appreciates my changes but has no will or desire to fall back in love with me. Yet, she has no problem going out to date others.
She says the kids are just going to grow up in a different type of family as there are many types. She says she gives the kids what they need, "love and support". Of course I did argue that they need more than that. I pointed out that they need to be with both parents and to see the parents commitment to working through challenges, fostering love, good times and bad times etc etc. She never responded to my comments.
I did ask her to come skating with the kids last week. She said she would like to but had plans. of course she did not offer another day to do it so I think she was just letting me down easily.
Yes I know I backslide but we all do it and sometime we just need to test the waters.
I don't know if I should give up or continue.....

I guess for me what is really hard is that I have not had a single ounce of hope through this whole thing. My W has not said a single world of missing anything. She and I went out once in the last year to a movie. That was it.
I read so many of these situations on the boards where at least the couple talks about their marriage or their family etc. We never did that at all, not once. She left and has not said a word other than what I wrote above. Yet, she is nice and says have a nice day, ends some of her emails to me with smiley faces etc. I have done so many kind and considerate things for her yet NOTHING has any impact at all, NOTHING.I did a 180 by going dim and only responding. That has been going on for a few months now.
It's like she is a robot. Oh ya, our sex life was really good and we ML the night before she gave me the bomb.
My W is from a very affluent family so she has said "she does not need me". She is also very attractive.

Not looking so good hu?

hey whitneypinch,

I will write later tonight as I am on my lunch break. But I can definitely empathize with the pain. Hang in there - you will get through this. And there is always hope, no matter how dim the situation looks or gets.

Will write later when I am more free to journal away.

I swear to god, I am in so much pain right now just getting a responce from someone gives me tears.
I don't want to weak but I just need a hug.

lovenomatterwhat I have read your posts as well. There are a few similarities to my situation.
I guess we went downhill after we had 2 kids in a row. The thing that is really hard is that through all the marriage resources I have read the situation with my W is so stereotypical. We are getting divorced for all the wrong reasons. We are such a typical case of not doing any work while we were together. We used to talk about how great things were, when in fact we were drifting apart. We got so busy with the 2 kids, building a cottage and a house etc. I stopped working by choice and fell into a funk and I think that she misinterpreted that as not caring for the family.
If she would really look at this from all the angles including the intense pressure we were under doing too many things at once she `may` see it in a different light. But that is not the case. I am just the scapegoat to the demise of our family. (ya I am not happy right now).
Anyway the past does not matter anymore. Everything has been tuned around and made 1000% better on my part. The bottom line is my W would just rather not even try to fix it, so she blames it all on me. I take 100% responsibility for any wrong doing in our marriage but in the end she gave up. I hope my kids will be ok with her when they get older. They know she was the one that left.

whitneypinch,

I will respond to you in more detail later on tonight. In the meantime, I am sending you a hug from Sacramento. I know it all hurts. It all hurts me everyday. Seeing XW as often as I do only makes the pain and sadness that much more real and ever present.

I also understand that I am the only person in charge of my attitude and that my job is to keep the door to reconciliation ajar just a bit, to allow me to begin making a life alone but to also leave open the possibility of mending marriage this is broken right now. You and I don't have to make our broken marriages permanently broken. Your soon-to-be XW's feeling in love with you again can change.

QUESTION FOR YOU: Has she EVER had a change of heart about anything she was certain would NEVER change? Feelings about a friendship? Job? Political view? Anything? My guess is she has had many changes of heart. She's hurting, whether the hurt is real or imagined. Remember to focus on issues, NOT on who is right and who is wrong. Much less impact emotionally. No need for either of you to defend yourselves.

All is not lost, my friend. Stay in charge of your attitude. Chalk up your positive and negative interactions to separate and distinct interactions and don't read into them. Things that she says that hurt are purposeful. She's trying to hurt you to get back at you for a real or imagined slight. You don't have to be her punching bag. Stand tall, and firmly acknowledge that she seems really upset. If the issue was something that you did (or did NOT do) acknowledge your mistake and pledge to not purposefully make the same mistake again. If it was an imagined problem, simply explain that you understand why she may have thought you did this wrong, but THIS is what actually happened.

I have learned so much in dealing with my XW, and I am still learning so much in dealing with her. As I posted, last week I had her mother calling me to ask me what is going on with XW. All of that is on my thread, but the point of even mentioning it is that XW is not only puzzling to me, she puzzling to her entire family. Be that as it may, I am still deeply in love with her and want to make our marriage what we intended it to be when we married.

Sadly, I end up being the one she turns to when she has an upset or as challenge. I step up and answer the call, but others have said that I need to tell her that I am NOT her husband, call someone else. There is a right answer. I just don't KNOW what it is. I am simply doing what I believe is right.

We are still close in many ways, but not in the ways that count. Her best friend believes that we will get back together, but that same friend enables her to act the way she does. XW shows she needs me, verbally attacks me whenever I don't validate or agree with her thoughts or actions, and then runs away. I have found that although every woman is different, they are far more similar than different. The much bigger truth is that men are MUCH different than women. I know that I can't be XW. I can only be me and be true to my own reality and sense of right and wrong. THAT may end up making our reconciliation unworkable, but so would my morphing into someone other than myself to suit her. THAT was what killed her attraction for me in the beginning. THAT was what made her fall out of love with me.

You (we) are hurting. Work on healing yourself both spiritually and intellectually. THAT is what will help you with your confidence and your self-esteem and both will help you find (or maintain) your direction/purpose/mission in life. All of this will make you more a more attractive man in general, and to your soon-to-be XW, specifically.

Work on holding your tongue when your soon-to-be XW pisses you off. I have gotten much better at NOT fighting with my XW, but I need to get better at helping her resolve HER issue or encouraging her to seek out a girlfriend to revisit the issue if I've already listened to her issue once.

Nothing will be gained from a fight, but this takes practice and practice helps our self control. DO NOT get into a pissing contest, least of all in front of the children. Rise above everything in front of your children and vent instead here, to a friend, or to your counselor.

Anyway, I didn't mean to carry on that long. I will post again later tonight.

Tom
<hug for my brother>

p.s. I hope some of my post helps you. I don't have all of the answers for your sitch (or mine, sadly), but I'm still in the game and being here helps for both ideas and encouragement.

p.s.s. I have some suggested readings for you, but first and foremost DB and DR. If you've read them, read them again.

p.s.s.s. I found Vernetta (DB counselor) quite skilled and helpful. I also found my own local counselor helpful, but regardless of the counselor, YOU have to be ready to heal. Really ready to heal, and healing hurts.

Hi Tom,
Thanks so much for such a thoughtful, enlightening response. I have just learned so much more how to deal with my wife and women in general when it comes to conflicts.

My W is friendly when I have to talk to her about the kids but I can see so many unresolved issues under the perfect surface. I can't seem to be able to draw it out of her. It seems like she really needs to just unload on me. All I can do is be there if she wants to talk to me, but at this point she does not want to.

If I was a betting man I would say she will never come back. She is famous for moving on once she makes up her mind, but that being said she has no problems changing her mind. If there was anyone that could have a change of heart it could be her. She has done everything to protect herself from me. In the last year she has not done anything with me, nor has she opened up at all.
She is not a talker like I am. She is a 'pleaser" and an 'emotion stuffer".
She knows if she opens the door a crack I will push it wide open.

I am laying low and responding to her contact which is about every 4-5 days. It is always just an issue about the kids. She knows I am here if she ever wants to talk and she is aware that I don't want a divorce.

Vernetta is great and I have spoken to her a few times. I also went to therapy for 7 months and it was fantastic.

It's very simple I have done everything to improve myself and will continue for life, I just want to at least have a chance to spend some time with her to see if we can get the feelings back. She is searching for that feeling elsewhere and is dating. I don't know to what extent as we don't talk about things like that.

Tom you are lucky in a way that your ex actually confides in you. I would take that as a positive.

It was so nice to see her yesterday and to be as a family, at least for an hour. She has not really seen me with the kids in almost a year. I am sure she was surprised at how calm I was and how affectionate the kids were with me. Just wish we could all hang out as a family to "see" how things are now.

Most importantly I wish I knew how she felt so I could respond to her. But she has to first want me to respond.

hey whitneypinch,

I don't really know what to say to be honest with you, but hang in there. In the very beginning, when my wife told me that she wanted to divorce me, I was in so much pain. I couldn't concentrate on the job, I was always crying, couldn't sleep, etc. I hated the weekends because at least Monday through Friday I could be somewhat distracted with work. I remember getting in my car and just driving for hours around town, crying and wishing that the pain would go away. These first few months are going to be tough - but you will get through this.

Remember, time is on your side. Ultimately, all of us are looking to love and be loved. Your wife at the moment for whatever reason is at a place where she doesn't feel or trust that she can have that with you. Your goal here has to be to maximize every opportunity you have with her to show her that you have her best interest at heart - that you really want her to be happy - even if that means happiness without you. Again, this is going to take time, especially since you don't have a lot of interactions with your wife at the moment. That is all the reason why to really make whatever moments you have with your wife a positive one.

In many ways, getting back with our wives is sort of like being single again and trying to get women to notice you. The key here is that you have to be attractive. And by attractive, you have to demonstrate and truly have the qualities that you know your wife wants in a man. Little things matter here (is your car clean, are you taking better care of yourself/working out, more upbeat and confident, etc). Also, this is a great opportunity to work on your character. What other qualities must you have to be the type of man that your wife (and any other good woman) would want? I also think that it is great that your relationship with your kids has gotten better. Keep up the good work there.

I would continue to read up on this forum and to learn as much as you can. In the end, this process is going to be about two things I think.

#1 - learning to love your wife unconditionally, even if that means you never get her back

#2 - learning to work on yourself (ultimatley, this DB thing is about saving ourselves in hope that we save our marriage)

I am still learning and if you've read any of my posts lately, I too get pretty down at times. That said, you never know what time, determination, and prayer can do. I wish you the best of luck here and keep the posts going. Remember - there is always hope

whitneypinch,

I too have family and friends who have grown tired of hearing my saga because I have not done as they have instructed me to do, thus, in their minds, I am stuck because I choose to be stuck with the emotions that I have. I suppose from a purely clinical and antiseptic point of view they would be right, but I view the human mind and heart as a bit more complex than simple mathematics, or even very complex mathematics. I try to figure me out every day with the help of the Lord. I often lean on Him hard and often there is only One set of footprints in the sand. He carries me when I cannot move forward myself and when I am able, I follow along working to bring His will to be.

I commend your efforts in improving yourself as a dad and as a man. Children are the greatest gifts from God. Pure joy. Remember, effort makes us both smarter and better people. It all starts with knowing what you want and putting in the effort to make what you want come to be. GREAT BOOK: The five Love Languages of Children by Chapman and Campbell. I will suggest more later. You can probably find this at your local library.

I always want to include my XW in anything our children and I do. I can't remember excluding her except to take our children out to visit my/their side of their family. XW knows she is NOT welcome. Too much water under the bridge for right now. Additionally, I always talk glowingly about XW to our children. They are not my counselor and I remember that. They are our children.

Yes, XW and I have both missed firsts. The peril of being separated/divorced. I was there for D8's first tooth loss (wife was bent) and was unfortunately there for S3's first 3 stitches on his 3rd birthday. I also go out of my way to share funny stories and happenings with XW by VM or text so she doesn't miss out unnecessarily. Basically, I try to go out of my way to do the right thing because I dug myself a HUGE hole with my stupid mistake sooooo, I gotta lotta makin' up to do still to prepare the ground for even the potential of a reconciliation. I'm up for it. I know Jesus talks to my heart and I follow my heart, despite how crazy those around me think I am.

Here's a blow up story about my XW. We celebrated S3's 3rd birthday at her house. XW was drinking ALL day and that spells disaster almost always. I was there having a good time and XW asked me to watch some of the children in the pool. XW also asked me to put up the pool fence for her. I agreed to both and the girls quickly exited the pool so I walked around the side of the house and picked up the pool fence (pop-in kind)and brought it back around to install.

I was installing the pool fence and her/our previous neighbor came out to talk with me for a minute. I realized I didn't grab both portions of the fence barrier and moved it to the other side. Mind you, all of this took maybe 10 minutes. Neighbor and I continued our friendly chit-chat and I told her I needed to get the other piece of the fence, so I walked around the house.

It's probably a 5-7 minute walk to grab the fence and walk back, and when I got back XW was trying to grab the fence from my hand and tell me to get out of her house. I told her, "I told you I'd put it up and I will." She insisted that I just get out. Puzzled, and knowing alcohol consumption is in play, I tell her that I am going to round up our children and leave. She then begins to tell me that they want to stay with her, and she is holding S3 and D8 is sitting right next to her and she goes on a swearing rant about how she can't believe that I and neighbor (who is married) are having an affair.

After remaining calm, while gathering our children's belongings XW's "good friend" (male, of course) comes over to me to try to talk ME down and to tell me that HE is not going to stand by while I yell at XW again! Again remaining calm, I simply told him if you want to be helpful, help me find my children's belongings and we'll be out of here. He didn't, but I got our stuff and we left without further incident.

In my situation, a third person is rarely part of the mix, but the dynamics are basically the same. Alcohol consumption only makes it all worse. After I left, I spoke with neighbor and her husband, and neighbor filled me in that when I went to get the 2nd piece of fence around the house, XW came after her, verbally attacking her in the presence of her D8 and S1. I was completely unaware of this, as I was not anticipating talking to neighbor further when I arrived back with the 2nd piece of fencing. Total craziness, but I have become so much better at remaining calm in the face of a raging storm. For me, calm is the key to being able to respond rather than to react in kind and escalate the situation.

I have gained a great deal of insight about communicating with and interacting with women at David Cunningham's www(dot)[censored](dot)com. Check this out. It will open your eyes and help you to understand your W better. It will also help you to understand your own errors that YOU have made in the past. Helps me daily.

The difficulty you are going to have in communicating with her is that you have soooo few opportunities. Read David Cunningham's material and prepare for your next opportunity, as you have so few chances to make a positive impact on her.

I know that I did what I did in my M. And yes, I do have to live with what I have done, but I firmly believe that my remorse is sufficient to wash me of my sin, but her choice and continued choices will only lead to guilt, which is much more powerful and hurtful. But that is another story line, as I was taught today that I must NOT keep score about who does what. Keeping score is completely counterproductive to staying solution-based and reconciling.

Today again, I was reminded that her anger and her hurt are most likely for deeper and far more painful than I have even imagined. I was counseled to be kinder than she is. I was counseled to keep harsh, cutting remarks to myself.

My friend, neither you nor I are going to be getting a purple heart for working on ourselves to improve ourselves. Neither of us is looking for a medal. Both of us are looking for the opportunity to reconcile with our wives and to make our families whole again.

I believe that I understand how much you love your W. I believe I understand your pain and sorrow. What I can tell you is that your W 'fell' in love with you once, and she can certainly 'fall' in love with you again. YOUR work is to figure at how to trip her attraction triggers by BEING different in a masculine, leading way whenever the opportunities present themselves.

I cannot urge you enough to read David Cunningham's blog/e-mail starting today. The more time you give yourself to read and digest the material AND put it to work, the better. The fabulous thing about this material is that you can practice on female friends, co-workers, clerks at stores, fellow female shoppers in the grocery store. Yes, it's aimed at those in long term relationships, but you can practice the banter with someone you just met or practice more involved conversations with other women in your life.

Lastly, my XW started dating as soon as she found out about my mistake. She has had 4 separate BF's and all of them were disastrous relationships. I cannot remember who wrote this, but it was aimed at men wanting to get back together with a past lover/wife. The advice was simple. KNOW that you are the best choice for her. Work on your confidence to exude that confidence, but not in an arrogant way. In a knowing way. THAT is what I have used to keep me strong as I have watched the parade of men she has invited into her life and my children's.

But I digress, when the opportunity arises to DO for her, know what you are going to do. Only YOU know your right answer. I have generally chosen to DO, and my friends cringe at my actions.

I wish you well. Take care of you and your children. Do things for yourself to bolster you confidence and self-esteem. Be a man, but make sure you are a GOOD man.

Tom

Thank you all for the guidance.
I have started reading all the resources you have mentioned.
I have come to realize that my ex W fell out of love with me as I became weak and insecure. When she met me I was an Alpha male and through a number of situations became needy, critical etc.
There is a piece here that sometimes I think is glazed over. When we became weak, critical etc. did our wives show us any compassion? Did they say to us "hey, what's the matter, are you ok"? I can tell you my W did not. She was critical to me and really never said anything until she fell out of love.
It's takes 2 to mess things up, yet we are blamed 100% for the breakdown in our marriage.
Yes, we will all try our best to rekindle the feelings but as we all know they will come back to us if "they" want to. We can't do much about that.
My W is spending so much time on dating etc. She is just like the rest in that she has a million sayings about how the kids will be fine etc.. There is a lot to be said about their character. Yes, we all love our WAS and do our best to try to fix things but there has to come to a point where we say "we are doing it all and they are doing nothing". We at least need some them doing some work. Yes, I know they worked for years and we let them down.
I guess I am just venting some frustration right now !!!
Boy, it sure would be great if our WAW would just pick up the phone and say "I am hurting, you really hurt me, but I care about this family and our marriage" How many of us got that speech? Not too many. Most of us got the "I want a divorce" speech.
Someone say something nice today.....I am not feeling so great towards my ex right now.....what a roller-coaster, and I want off.

I hear you. In my case, my W told me she had lost attraction for me. Sadly, I didn't understand what she was talking about because I didn't understand that MEN generate attraction for themselves in women, primarily by just BEING a man: having a MISSION in life and insuring that your decisions for your life revolve around that mission, LEADING her and the family, being decisive, but not dominating or domineering, having an opinion and voicing it, COMMANDING respect by who you are and how you behave. Much of what I'm talking about can be found in David Cunningham's daily e-mail/blogs. Read it, re-capturing your more attractive self and/or improving on who you are is your gift to you, regardless of which fruits your efforts will bear.

I completely understand becoming weak and insecure, topped off with a big helping of being critical, but THAT was who you were for a time and not who you ARE. Your attitude is 100% up to you. Who you become is 100% up to you. How much you learn about the inner workings of being an Alpha Male again (and yes, this is a behavior pattern that CAN be learned and honed with some effort).
Check out doctorpaul(dot)net for some great material about getting a handle on being a better you. Insightful and helpful.

No, my XW didn't come to me in a way that I grasped in order to tell me that our M was in trouble, she simply did what she knew how and left it at that. Looking back now, I can see that this was a situation of not knowing what you don't know you don't know. As I said earlier, I didn't understand it either because I wasn't following a 'playbook' to get her to be attracted to me or to 'fall' in love with me. I was just being me and since I REALLY didn't understand anything about my triggering her attraction for me, I was clueless.

I didn't get the 100% my blame talk with regard to the failing of the marriage. My XW was much more kind. She told me that was 99% of the problem, and she was maybe, heavy emphasis on maybe, 1% of the problem. In my healing, marital and relationship research and 'being a man' reading, I have come to grasp that I contributed 50% of the problems which contributed to the deterioration over time, either through neglect, stupidity, or both. By the same token, SHE contributed as different 50%, but 50% all the same.

All of the work in finding myself again led to a troubling patters in me that some kind posters pointed out to me because I was blind to my own continuing mistake. That mistake is KEEPING SCORE. I regrettably cheated on my XW and she is understandably and rightfully angry, hurt and mistrusting of me. Although the terrain of our M made the mistake more palatable at the time, I know the A was wrong then, it'd be wrong today, and most certainly wrong tomorrow. No excuses. No real reasons that matter. Simple ignorance, selfishness and cowardice.

My XW has dated a string of men. Since she and I see each other or talk on a regular basis, and since she introduces these men to our children (<-- I have a problem with this mostly), I have held to the certainty that I am her best partner. I have worked to change positively I have learned a great deal. By the same token, I know that she hasn't grown at all, and perhaps isn't likely to grow. But knowing this is not keeping score in the way that I had. It's simply knowing that I want her back with some growth and positive changes to complement my growth. Taking our old M back without changes in both of us is simply a recipe for disaster and more heartache for everyone.

Let's walk this path together. NO keeping score. Keep our 'wishing' to a minimum. Focus on improving ourselves and making ourselves the best possible men we can become to bring someone new (ourselves) to a new marriage. We can save our M by ourselves. I view this as my keeping the door open to the possibility of reconciling with my W, whom I still love dearly. Based on what you write, I would guess that you love your XW. She, like my XW, lost faith in us, lost attraction for us, and lost respect for us.

But this is where the rubber meets the road. If you were DONE, you wouldn't be here. Talk to positive people. Read positive information. Pray. Be positive. Remember that rollercoaster has UPs as well as downs, end eventually it does stop. Be ready for that. Have your own attitude in the right place. Don't keep score.

Good luck, my brother,
Tom

Hey Tom,
I wish you were a woman !!! $\:\)$ I would marry you.
My god, your situation and mine is so similar.
I do have contact with my W about every few days. 2 days ago she was texting me about a really cute story about my 4 year old son.
Today I had to speak to her about some problems my son was having at school. She said all he wants to do is play and does not want to do his work. She then said sounds like someone else I know. Of course that was directed right at me. When we got off the phone I sent her a text saying "I hear you 100%, trust me I do". She sent back a smiley face reply. I texted her back saying I have a really cute story to tell you about our daughter. W texted me back saying she was busy right now. I must have triggered her again as she does not want to hear the story yet 2 days ago shared a cute story about my son.
It may be because it's Christmas and I have the kids, and our divorce is final in 2 weeks.
The truth is she has some under-lining anger still. I just wish I could draw it out of her.
I think she will carry it around forever and that is the end of all of this. Sadly I don't think my W has learned a single thing through this at all either. She has kept herself busy and going and going through all of this. I don't believe she has faced this yet, and maybe is just starting to now as it is really over.
I agree with you about the fact we did what we did as that is what we knew at the time. We both messed up.
Sure would like us to at least spend some time together to see how we feel. Are our 2 kids not worth that, apparently not.
I sure can see getting to the point where I will say "I deserve to be happy, I deserve to be with someone that appreciates me".
Not happy today and just venting somemore.

oppps, W just called and we swapped stories about the kids. It was nice to talk to her. It's just weird that she seems to just feel nothing for me at all. She just seems to be sooo busy.
Just wish she would settle down and spend some time with me. Just feel like I am in the friendship zone. oh, wait...that's a good thing I guess.
You know...what we are all looking for here is just some hope that w still has some feelings for us.

Listen brother, it is good to vent here; NOT at her. Hopefully when you are not here venting your are spending your time reading great material or doing fun things.

Some food for thought: you may want to tell HER that you are too busy to hear a story and find out a convenient time to call her back because you DO want to hear the story. With my XW, I refuse to have conversations by text or e-mail. If she starts the conversation in those way, I simply CALL her back immediately. Has worked for me thus far.

Your XW is hurting and/or angry about SOMETHING still. Do not badger her about what her issue is. Be strong; be a man; let her know you are available when she is ready to let it out, no expectations and no demands. DO NOT chase her as much as you want to do so.

You do deserve to be happy. Make YOURSELF happy. Enjoy your children. If it's convenient, invite your XW along with NO strings and NO expectations. Tell her she can take her own car if she wants. Make all of your interactions with her different; better. Show her who you ARE, don't remind her of who you WERE. You are simply working to overwrite the negative stuff that piled up in your R with new positive experiences.

In my situation, XW says she has forgiven me for my mistake, but what she DOES tells me that she has NOT forgiven me. I think that she thinks that forgiving is forgetting. I've patiently explained it's not. End result is that there are still more underlying issues for her between us. What those are I do not know, but I know that it is a possibility that her underlying problems were pre-existing and my mistake only exacerbated them.

I haven't really chased XW from the beginning. She has always been the one who initiates coming over to my place to be with the children. When I haven't heard from her, I have to fight all of my urges to be the one initiating contact, although sometimes it's necessary. I always tell XW when she calls to see our children that when our children are with me and she is, of course, always welcome. I lead a simple adult. I have women in my life, but I have made it clear that my XW calls and does come to visit. Rarely, have I spent any time with a woman and my children and when I have, this person is always introduced as my friend and expected to act as such in my children's presence.

From all of the stories I have read on DB, the dynamics of our roles would make it seem as though she would be the one who wanted the reconciliation and I was off in left field picking dandelions. Appearances deceive sometimes.

Additionally, my XW has dated lots, as well. THAT is her way of NOT having to think and feel. Running is more fun and keeps the yucky feelings away. It's easier to NOT think, deal and feel. i do believe that her self-destructive lifestyle and poor decision making are aimed at me; to hurt me. As I said, it is really my job to stop keeping score and to continue clearing peoples and weeds from the runway and make it safe for a coming home landing.

Work on making yourself as attractive to the opposite sex as you are able. That WILL have a wonderfully positive impact on your
XW and on your efforts to reconcile and make your family whole again.

Read, my friend. Lots of great information exists in the world for men like you me and you. However, it's generally best to get a review of information from friends, family and co-workers, so as not to waste your money unnecessarily.

I have suggested a bit of reading to you already. Delve in. Digest it. Put it to work. Have fun. Be happy. Love your children. Love yourself. Love you X. DO NOT keep score! Be the best you that you can be at this point in your life.

<Big hug to you, Brother>
Tom

P.S. No, I won't marry you.

Tom,

Again you have hit the nail on the head !!!
You are just further along than I am with my X. I have cleared the way for her to join us with the kids. I do a lot of great fun adventures with my kids. It's part of who I am. I am really passionate for life. I have asked and she says she wants to come but had other plans. I think it's her way to not look bad. That is her personality as a "pleaser".

My W too dated a lot of people before me. In fact I think she is most happy doing that. She get�s to have fun and not dive deep. The truth is my W has done a ton of reading and really explored herself so sometimes it does not make sense.

I have been reading like crazy as well since this happened a year ago. In fact in the last 2 days I have read most of the stuff you suggested from the websites. My god, I just learned so much more about being a man. I NEVER had a role model growing up at all. Looking back I have realized that I stopped being a man with her. We have a ton of complicated situations around that but it does not matter. What matters is getting that back.

You know my W has said she forgave me a long time ago but clearly her actions speak that she has not.

Man, I don't know, this is crazy the amount of work and reading required. I guess it's all worth it or we would not be here as you have said.

My W and I were texting and I slipped in a flirt. I have done this maybe twice in the last year. She shut me down the two other times. So far she has not shut me down yet today but I will see. I am so lusty for my W. I have not been with another women in the last year, nor am I ready or wanting that.
My kids are my ideal date.

I am will you 100% about changing up the communications. I too am going to make a point to talk to her on the phone more. She and I have said we like that better. She and I have been texting 99% of the time in the last year. It has calmed things down a bit but it's time to talk on the phone. It's hard to hear her sound so distant though. I miss my W�s sweet talk to me which of course is gone now.

What do you mean by this: "From all of the stories I have read on DB, the dynamics of our roles would make it seem as though she would be the one who wanted the reconciliation and I was off in left field picking dandelions. Appearances deceive sometimes."?

It's also funny, my W has done a few destructive actions over the last year and made sure I knew about them. Why is it that they do that?

I was thinking about your situation....
You are very fortunate that you W wants to spend time with you and your kids. That is a huge positive sign. I believe you just have to keep doing the work and reel her in.
I read about so many people in that situation on these boards.
That is the situation I would love to be in.
My W just has not made any moves at all in that direction. It is her boundary. She knows I will have hope if she does that. I guess I have to neutralize the situation so she feels safe to join us.
Blaaahhhh....I just want to give my W a hug and say..."let's get down to work and make this great".. Clearly that is not in the cards $;\)$

whitney,

Whatever you (or most probably both of you did) to contribute to the overall deterioration over time is something that cannot be changed.

The only thing you can do is work the mound of clay that God made into your mind and body into something that you and your loved ones would be proud to be associated with. God gave you the tools, you must utilize those tools to CHOOSE to make the best you possible. You may want to pray that He gives you the love, guidance, vision and skill to make the best you that He intended you to be even before you were conceived.

Focus on YOU and your children. THAT is where the best investment of your time will lie. Be like a skilled farmer; prep your soil (mind, body, and spirit), plant seeds at the best time of your life (NOW would be good), water your toil, and reap your bountiful harvest of an abundant spirit, mind and body. Your abundant life will also reap your abundant confidence and your help you to determine WHAT is important to you which will delineate the path for your life's mission with a surveyor's precision. With a goal, your life's activities will be meaningful because they will be in line with accomplishing your mission. You WILL be happier. You will have a purpose. You will be more confident with YOUR chosen destination and mission. You WILL be more attractive to everyone, including your XW and children. At a minimum, if XW continues to stay lost, your work on your will be your gift to yourself and your loved ones. On top of that, this new YOU will be your gift to your XW should she choose to take advantage of the opportunity to reconcile or to the new life partner you choose.

On thing that my friend here, Frank_D reminded me of, was that SHE does not hold ALL of the cards. I (and you) hold an equal number and should our XW's choose to desire to work on reconciling our marriages, WE still have the ultimate say as to whether or not that is in our best interests based on what they have done to improve themselves and thus ADD to the marriage. I know that as of right now, I would not be able to take my XW back because she has a lot of self-improvement work to do on her own. Taking her back as she is, which is substantially how she was, is only a recipe for disaster; a step back.

You and I are very similar in HOW we deal with our XW's. I changed some actions in myself to help facilitate her coming to me and not running from me. I let her open up, but simply validate her story and feelings ONCE. I have taken to simply closing down the conversation gently. David Cunningham advises something better, he advises the man to simply tell her that, " I really feel like this is getting into girlfriend territory, and I don't want to go there. Why don't you call up your girlfriend and go over this until you have run down the emotions of all of this and when you are ready to resolve this issue, I am here for you." He's more eloquent in saying that, but that's the gist. He's very good at dropping seeds in our minds so that we will be able to reap our abundant harvest at the right time.

My XW is the queen of the 6 month relationship. The friendly bet among people who knew her long before I did was that our M would last 2-4 months, but certainly no more than 6 months. Well, before our split, we had made it to 6 years. I see that as a HUGE positive, as all of her recent "relationships" have lasted less than 6 months except for the criminal, DH#3, who lasted almost a year, but 6+ months of that he was in jail and they were really solidifying their relationship writing daily jailhouse 'love' letters. As I said, she runs and runs in her self-destructive sprint to avoid thinking, feeling, and dealing with reality. Plus she has LOTS of "good friends" (I choose to use FINGER QUOTES when I say that phrase) who are male, most of which are ex-BFs and lovers and simply chase her around trying to get in her panties.

She loves the attention. She had a year of counseling to deal with her self-esteem issues after DH#3, and decided to quit. I looked at her and said deadpan, "So, you're cured? She just walked away, but my comment was simply to let her know that I KNOW her and I know when she is trying to BS me and herself. She said she no longer looked to men for approval. She has sought mens' approval through sex since she was 13; still does. But for those who see her only on occasion, who only know her on a superficial level, and who buy her 'truths' as gospel, it would seem true, as she certainly can be convincing. I simply know that often her actions don't reconcile with her words and her actions tell me what she truly thinks, feels, wants, and wants. Actions speak much louder than words, and in her case, words don't speak loudly at all.

Now, despite all of this; knowing her flaws and mine, I still love her and I believe that my work to keep myself open to reconciling is actually making God's will come to life thru me. I know the wrong's that I did in my M. Although I cannot undo the wrongs, I continue to improve myself to prepare for our eventual reconciliation. NO SCOREKEEPING! Simply two people placing their God first, their marriage second, and their individual selves third. My vow is to live my life for God, fight for my M second, and fight for myself after that.

QUESTION: Why did you quit going to counseling?

Respond to your XW in a reserved, respectful, interested way. Give her space to finish the conversation later if she starts to pull away.

Your gonna get there my friend, but you suffer from the same thing that I do. Focusing on ME instead of on her needs. She seems hurt and angry like mine. Stop scorekeeping. It's counterproductive. My XW's mother always says, "Would you rather be right, or would you rather be happy?" Simple, but is along the same lines of NO scorekeeping. Who is right and who is wrong is irrelevant. Is the issue being discussed right or wrong; good or bad? That doesn't focus on either one of you. Much more productive and much less emotional.

Well, my friend, I wish you well. Let's help each other put corks in the bottom of our boat to keep it afloat long enough to see our XW's swimming back to us to discuss the opportunity of reconciling. Focus on your attitude. Associate with people who are positive and FOR you rather than AGAINST you.

Talk soon,
Tom

You are so right and that is what I have been doing. It's all about learning to become the best person I can. I have grown into the most fantastic father in the last year. Even my MIL and FIN have made a point of telling me. The biggest reward is seeing the effect it has on my kids. I can see it a mile away !

I believe my W is just going to keep running towards the elusive goal of happiness.

I am finding that my motivation towards her is starting to really drop.
She is still doing stuff to hurt me and I have to find a way to remove myself.
I have the kids for the next week starting today. We are going to the cottage to spend Christmas as we always have for the last 7 years. My W just texted me to say she needs me to drop one of my sons shirts off at her house and that the nanny will be there all next week. Well, of course this is her way to tell me that she is going away somewhere for the week. She did it just to hurt me. She knows I am up at the cottage and will not return until Friday of next week.
I don't know if they deliberately do this as a way to lash out or quite frankly they have no idea.

whitney,

I am happy to hear that you have become "the most fantastic father." I am sure your efforts to improve yourself have brought you and yours many rewards, both expected and unexpected. I urge you to continue on in this vein.

Continuing to learn and stretch yourself will only strengthen your intellect and your character as you put what you learn into practice in your life. As Winston Churchill said, "Never, never, never, never give up" on what most important to you like continuing to improve yourself. And don't talk about what you've already done, DO something today to SHOW what is important to you.

As far as your XW goes, she is NOT trying to hurt you for whatever pain she believes you caused her. It doesn't matter if the pain was caused by you or not for her, she believes it came from you and that is enough to cause both of you headache and heartache.

Your XW is doing whatever she is doing and because she makes you aware of what she is doing, it hurts you because you still care A LOT. My XW continues to run from thinking about our past, looking at HER part in the demise of our M over time, and feeling anything real which would come from heart-felt, deep reflection. I know that over the past 3 years I have felt as you do, that her behavior is all about me and specifically aimed at hurting me. Over time, I have realized that her behavior is a self-destructive pattern that started LONG before I met her.

In many ways, I was the was the fly in the ointment in her long running path of self-serving, self-absorbed and selfish behavior developed from childhood, teen drug use, and surrounding herself with ***-kisser friends, whose idea of real friendship is to simply pat her on the head to congratulate her self-destructive decisions as strong, independent decisions. Needless to say, all of her friends were and are marriage cancers. Certainly made the terrain of our M more difficult at best.

So, you may be wondering WHY I am intent on reconciling my M. Quite simply because I love her and I have faith that I am simply working to make God's will a reality. Additionally, I know that she and I could be happy together in His glory and I also know that our children would be best served by being part of a happy, healthy and whole family unit, rather than a broken family.

Ultimately, I know that I can only do what I can do with His help. I know that God gives us all free will to do as we wish and I cannot make XW (1) want the opportunity to reconcile and (2) put in the effort to make herself worthy of reconciliation. For now, I realize that I am not perfect, but I also realize that I have much to learn about becoming the best man that I am able to be. I look to Him to assist me in both recognizing and fully utilizing the gifts that He has bestowed upon me.

As far as your XW goes, she probably is running away to find happiness. Sadly, that is her prerogative. She clearly was not happy in some ways while you were together. She knows this. She was there. Since this fact cannot be changed right now all you can do is keep the door to your heart cracked open to the possibility of reconciliation; safeguard your and your children's hearts.

Remember, only YOU control your attitude and your willingness to hold on. I pray you will, but as always, that is YOUR choice. Many times the 'runner' tires from running and realizes that YOU are not THE problem in his/her life.

Continue working on making yourself as attractive as you can possibly be. Love your children. They will always be yours. Do not get too chummy with your ex-in laws. THAT may lead to further unnecessary running from you on your XW's part. Your ex-in laws are your XW's and your children's family, not yours. Be mindful of that fact.

Good luck, my friend. Only you control your attitude. Only you can protect your heart.

Best wishes,
Tom

Oh my god what you wrote is my ex to a T.
"Over time, I have realized that her behaviour is a self-destructive pattern that started LONG before I met her.
In many ways, I was the was the fly in the ointment in her long running path of self-serving, self-absorbed and selfish behaviour developed from childhood, teen drug use, and surrounding herself with ***-kisser friends, whose idea of real friendship is to simply pat her on the head to congratulate her self-destructive decisions as strong, independent decisions. Needless to say, all of her friends were and are marriage cancers. Certainly made the terrain of our M more difficult at best."

My wife is 100% the same as yours and even her parents have rewarded her financially for her behaviour. They also think it show strength on her part. If they only knew some of the stories of her past they would be physically sick.
When I met my W every friend and relative came up to me to say how great it was that I calmed my W down and how happy she was. Well, in the end I was not enough for her. Of course she still blames me for the whole damn thing. No self-reflection at all.

So yes, I will just continue on. My Ex contacted me and the kids during my past week with the kids. She was so syrupy sweet to me and of course I was a bit too kind back to her. She pulled away and was sort of mean to me. It actually hurts to have any contact with her. So I will continue on with no contact and she can pop in if she likes. The truth is all the new things that she is into are of no interest to me at all so I don't even know if I would be attracted to her if I just met her.

whitney,

I am glad to hear that my situation and my XW struck a cord with you. I am also sad that you are experiencing some of the 'stuff' that I've experienced along the way.

At this point, let me back out and re-explain some stuff about my sitch. First and foremost, XW and I are not reconciling as of yet. I have been working to DB/reconcile since we split on Feb. 11, 2006, and I have been the only one making ANY efforts to work our relationship out. Mostly, I have met only her desires to be separated, divorced, and to move one separate from each other after the divorce. I have had fantastic mentors her who have taken time out of their personal lives to advise me and point me in the right direction. I've had some of these people tell me that my sitch is hopeless because of my XW. And yet, I'm still here. Fighting for my M. Fighting for my W. Fighting for my family. Fighting for me.

I don't have all the answers, but I was told this by a mentor, "YOU know your sitch and your XW better than anyone here does. Ultimately, you have to make the best decision for YOU."

The same goes for you, whitney. I can tell you about my sitch. I can tell you what I've done. I can tell you how my decisions turned out. But even then, that's ME doing something in MY sitch, with MY XW, not YOU doing something in YOUR sitch, with YOUR XW. Probably similar yes, but definitly different.

Experience, post, read responses (to you and to others), digest, post, read responses, digest...and on and on.... You seem like a very good man with his heart in the right place.

Again, focus on you and your children. At least consider doing these things:
1. Spend time searching for material to improve you. Much more exists than you would ever guess no matter how much time how much time you have spent searching.
2. Safeguard your attitude, heart and sanity.
3. Protect you children. Love your loved ones.
4. Make new friends who participate in activities that interest you and your children.
5. Strengthen your faith in God. Join a men's accountability group.
6. Read what interests you to broaden your knowledge base.
7. Start a new hobby (or two or three).

Bottom line, whitney, is focus on YOU. In my situation, my XW has lied to me so often that I have simply told her that I don't believe a word she says. I have told her that if I want to know the truth about what she values and what her priorities are, I don't need to ask her anything; I only need to WATCH her.

I have told her, "No matter what you do, I am NEVER surprised or shocked by what you do; often disappointed yes, but NEVER surprised or shocked. The funny thing about this line is that, just as her GF told me last year, "XW DOES listed to everything you say." In this instance, XW has used that exact line to tell me about how she (XW) feels about her own mother. LOL

My friend, let's work on ourselves together, as strange as that may sound. We both are on the same uphill struggle to reconcile our marriages and re-unite our families. Let's be strong together.

Tom

Hello Tom,

What I will say is that this happening has been the best thing in my life. It has caused me to look so deep into myself to figure out what matters. I had had a wild career all over the world. I was very focused on what others thought of me and spent so much time on everything that represented me. My wife is from an extremely affluent family so this afforded me even more opportunity to be greedy and focused on the wrong things. My career got off track as I became unfocussed as well.
I had become so focused on other things that I did not focus on my W and my babies. The truth is I did not have any mentors growing up and most certainly was not prepared for what I married into.
When my W walked out the door I realized I had lost everything. That everything was my family.

In the last year I have read everything I can get my hands on. I have found a new purpose in life. I am using my skills now for greater good.
I really have become a fantastic father and have realized that my children give me the greatest joy in life.

I have also realized, as you have, that become a better person is now a life long journey. There is always more information to learn and experience. I trekked to the base of Mt. Everest and was fortunate to experience the wonderful culture in Nepal. Their culture has no negativity at all and is so focussed on the family. That trip changed my life.

As I continue on I am finally realizing that my W has not looked back from the second she has left. She has so totally moved on and is living a completely different life now. It's a lifestyle in which I would not fit in. I am starting to really see that.

So, I will continue to just focus on my kids, myself and giving back. It's all I can do.

If my W wanted to come back she would, but I truly believe I was just a phase in her life and now she has "evolved" onto another phase.

As MWD says not all marriages can be saved. I truly believe that no matter what I had done that my marriage would have ended. To see where my W is focussing her attention now is so different than when she was with me. I think she is much happier now doing what she truly wants. I believe my W was playing a role (she was an actress) that she grew tired of playing.
I think now I am just a slight inconvenience to her, in which she tolerates.

It is hard being with my kids and experiencing all that we do. I can't possibly imagine my W not wanting to experience the events with us. But as she has said....she has her own experiences with them now. I know she appreciates the father I am to "her" children. She has explained that her happiness is what is most important to her now. Is that a selfish act?? Yes and no.
Marriage is work and she did not want to do the work. I guess my negativity etc. in our M prevents her from considering reconciliation. She is afforded a life where she really does not have to work at anything so I guess she just wants to have fun.

Will this catch up to her/ I don't know. She my cruise through life from one fun experience to another and live happily "unhappy" ever after. Maybe something will happen to her like it did to me, and she will wake up. The truth is I don't think she will ever wake up as she is very content with her life now.

So, yes Tom, we continue on to be the best that we can and do right for ourselves and our kids. As with everything in life, everything is for a reason.

whitney,

I wish I could say that my separation/divorce happening was the best thing in my life. I lost my wife, my marriage, and my family unit because she and I did not have the skills to keep our marriage strong and together and because we did not have the skills, the desire, and the willingness to work on our individual changes to make our marriage happy, healthy, and whole.

I am saddened by all of this. So...what do I do. I DB to the best of my ability from the other side of the fence...by myself. Why...? Because if I quit fighting to reconcile my marriage, the end game is here instead of near. As distant as the light is at the other end of the tunnel, it's still there. I SEE it!

I, too, have looked deeply inward at myself to critically determine what parts of me are lacking or missing and I continue to shore up my weaknesses as a person, a man, a father, a family member, and a friend. What I have seen is that God made me as a huge mound of moldable clay, and taking into account the gifts that God bestowed upon me in the beginning, I am putting those gifts to work to fashion the best ME possible. I have come a long way in making myself better, achieving my daily goal of making Tom a little bit better than he was yesterday, each and every day; day after day.

My XW is from a newly affluent family. She is afforded both pluses and minuses from being part of that dysfunctional brood. I, on the other hand, my career also got off track and I have made some poor life choices. Now I see that I can no longer make choices based on what others think of me and how the external 'stuff' makes me and my life look. I am searching for meaning in my work and in my life today. I am confident I will find it in both.

I hear what you say, and I, too, may have just been a phase in XW's life, but what I see in watching all of her running and turmoil is that she comes back to me for stability and comfort. I don't mean to imply that it's more than that at this point, but THAT is much more than it was three years ago.

My XW also is living her life, and as it is, I would not fit in it. But I didn't really fit in it while we were married. She often felt unsettled and felt the need to get out of the house to 'relax'; be away from her husband and children. Always running to be with friends. Sadly, both of her parents are only children, so she has no aunts, no uncles, no cousins. I, on the other hand, have 7 siblings and come from a HUGE family. Family obviously meant much more to me than it did to her; family was foreign to her.

Since we've been apart, she has talked about the importance of family, but her nuclear family is completely dysfunctional and affluent. There's lots here, but it's off my point.

Saturday evening I received a text message at 11:05pm from XW asking if I was awake. I called her back and she asked if she could come over to my place (I had the children with me). I, of course, told her yes. She came over, for her reasons, and stayed. In talking with XW, she said to me that she was not welcome to my family's Christmas celebration, like I was invited to her family's, and THAT truth hurt her badly. I could see that our (she and I) not being a family was hurtful to her again.

Sadly, LAST YEAR I brought her along to my family's Christmas celebration and XW got drunk, physically hung all over my male family members flirting with them in front of me and my family, ignored all of my female family members, and, in short, made a spectacle of herself in front of my children and my family. Unfortunately, she doesn't recall ANY of her behavior that evening as being the reason for her not being welcome.

Yes, XW and I have a loooong history of almost meeting in the right place at the right time. And as often as we have just missed, I still see the possibilities that exist in our future together, rather than the missed, and now long gone, opportunities to make our lives together work out happily ever after. And yes, I know I am holding on to a long shot of our being able to reconcile after all that has passed, but I feel strongly that everything that I am seeing encourages me to push on.

I understand what MW-D says about marriages. Some cannot be saved. However, in listening to, and interacting with, my XW over the past 3 years, I believe that she is beginning to look back at her missed opportunity to be a happily married wife with 2 beautiful children and a doting husband, rather than a frantic, unhappy, searching, single mother of two. She is missing the 'family' she decided to divorce herself from.

Marriage is the hardest work you'll ever do, my sister told me when I married XW. It certainly can be. I see the rewards from making it work. I have friends who have built a life together with over 50 years of marriage.

I see that XW runs around with her friends, but I see the longing in her eyes and hear it in her voice, and watch it in her actions, that she misses being a part of a whole family. She could run from fun stuff to fun stuff forever. THAT unfortunately will only lead to HAPPY (for a while), not HEALTHY AND WHOLE.

Most of the people in my life think I am not exactly sane in holding out any hope to reconcile with XW. They think the same about me thinking that XW has the capacity and the will to change in any demonstrable way. I say I am sane. I fight for what is right. I have regular conversations with God, and He guides my action, my thoughts, and my words. I am moving in the right direction. XW and I will once again be H and W and our entire family will be happy, healthy and whole.

Tom

Wow Tom,
our histories become more and more similar with each entry !!

My W does not behave badly as you have outlined of your W.

I am the only child and my W is from the big, close family. When I met my W she did not want much to do with her family so it worked out for us. Now she is with them 24 hours a day. I have since went back and made amends with her family for not being more involved.

The big difference between my situation and yours is that my W does not confide in me, spend time with me and the kids or ever make mention of us. She is a rock and has completely moved on.
All I get occasionally is her telling me a cute story about the kids.
She never asks about me or what I am doing.

I really can't do anything more. I just have to move forward in my life focussing on me and my kids.

My wife has a philosophy that she has written on her fridge. "Life is too long not to be having fun". I think that pretty much sums up her view on everything including marriage. I don't think she has a clue how much work it is. We led a very charmed life and when we hit some challenges she sought comfort in others instead working through issues for the sake of our marriage and family.

My W is still harbouring a lot of anger. She is an "emotion stuffer" and lets things fester for years. So, ever once and a while she is very aggressive with our interactions.

So....I just keep moving forward. Some days I can't function and some days are not too bad.

Yes, whitney, our histories are similar, so take what you can from listening to mine and borrow for your sitch what fits.

To bring you a bit more up to speed on my XW and her family, they are an affluent bunch which was achieved at the expense of a functional family life. XW is currently at odds with her mother (the manipulative matriarch) and sister, and the two of them are pulling hard to get XW's brother away from XW and over to them. This is all deeply rooted in their hurts, mistakes, habits, hang-ups, and addictions. I do know this. I don't live inside any of their heads, but I do know that they are all hurting, assumptive, and pig-headed.

XW and I move closer together whenever she is between DH's and/or at odds with her mother/family. The fact that this is that landscape on which XW moves closer to me is NOT a stable foundation upon which to build my reconciliation efforts. It's actually only a mirage; a recipe for disaster.

So today, I find myself wanting to come to her rescue because I love her and holding myself back because she is hovering above quicksand and my rushing to her now will only lead to my and our demise.

My XW has looked like a rock at times. But, I urge you to look beyond the obvious. Look at what she does, NOT what she says. If she says little, it is YOUR job to make sure you listen to EVERYTHING she says. It is YOUR job to look at EVERYTHING she does. This is detective work without a deferred payment plan.

Based on your description of your XW's family, they are seriously dysfunctional and their 'support' is based on their convoluted premise of 'blood is thicker than water.' Trust me, I heard that statement more than I care to remember as their familial backstabbing got more and more vicious and their support became less and less available and more and more conditional.

Be her rock. She is probably a very strong woman who CAN and WILL move on without you. But only YOU know if YOU are the best choice for her for a life's partner. If you believe your are, put forth your best Omega Male self and be there for her. Be strong (which you are, so I don't say Alpha Male self), be emotionally available for her and your family, be assertive (not NEEDY), learn to BE HERE NOW whenever you are together. SHOW her you are different, don't TELL her how you've changed. She notices everything. She is watching. The proof is in the pudding. (<--I know, stupid saying, but I like it.)

If your goal is to reconcile with your wife and to DO things differently going forward, fantastic! I applaud you and your efforts. Look at your situation with a BEGINNER'S MIND, as discussed in DR. When I force myself to discard much of what I think I KNOW, and force myself to start from square one, I am able to view a challenge from a different perspective and come at it from a different angle, often arriving at a better game plan/solution. I am not as smart as I'd like to believe myself to be and I only make matters worse when I assume that I have ALL of the answers already, particularly in relation to my messed up marital situation. Heck, if I did, I'd be much further along in DBing my M.

My brother, YOU control your attitude. If your attitude is not where it needs to be to reconcile your marriage, change it. THAT is within your control with your concerted. You don't control her, you control YOU. Stay solution-oriented. Everything you say and do is either productive or counter-productive. Choose wisely. Fight for what you want. Never give in.

Your wife is like my XW in that she is a strong woman, and if necessary, she will make her life on her own. But that is not what either of them want. My wife simply wants me to be the man, the dominant one, in the relationship. By this, I do not mean that she wants me to dominate her, be a jerk to her.... She wants me to be emotionally stronger, be her rock, lead her to where I want our family to go. She wants me to care enough about to give her options in decision making and care enough to show her that I agree with her choice of the option that I have given her. Lead her and she will follow. Climb into the driver's seat and take command of yourself and your sitch. She may bail anyway, but doing things the way I have done them so far has only slowly choked more life out of the still real possibility of reconciliation.

Authors to consider reading, in addition to MW-D: Dr. Paul Dobransky (doctorpaul.net), Rick Warren, Norman Vincent Peale, David Snarch, David Deida, David Eldredge, Dale Carnegie, Shad Helmstetter, Napoleon Hill, John C. Maxwell, Gary Chapman, Maxwell Maltz, and Claude Bristol. I would start with Dr. Paul's information and then check out the other authors for offerings that interest you most and best suit you and your sitch.

I wish you the best, brother. Gird your spirit. Protect your attitude. Focus on solutions, NOT problems. Winning in your wish to reconcile your M is the goal. Never lose sight of that. Never, never, never give in. Hope is your friend. Surrender is your enemy. Surround yourself with people who support you in achieving your goal.

Do what you can. Don't do what you can't. Know the difference. The focus is YOU. Give her the opportunity to see and know that you ARE different. Not everything works according to OUR time plan.

Tom

Hello Tom,

Thanks again for taking the time to post. Again the similarities are staggering.

Sorry, but today I am going to rant. I messed up some things in my marriage and yes I got into a funk. I landed into a family that had tons of money and I got lazy and off track.
My W left me and our family PERIOD.
She has not looked back for a second and is moving forward at the speed of light. She prides herself with her ability to make a decision, stick with it and never look back. It's both a great thing and a very sad thing. Her parents have rewarded her her whole life when she gets into trouble by bailing her out financially.

I am emotionally drained of this whole thing. While I would do anything to have my family back together I guess there comes a point where I deserve "something", anything.....

As we both know, it takes two. My W still is blaming me 100% for the whole thing. She is out "having fun" and is into all kinds of new hobbies etc. Affluence affords a fun lifestyle 24 hours a day. I am absolutely ripped apart that I am not with my kids. For me that should be enough to want to work on things.

My W has done a fantastic job over the last year of making sure she steers clear of me so that I don't have an influence on her decision.

I am fed up. I have been working 1000% on doing what I can to improve for myself and my family. I don't even get any crumbs thrown my way. Sure my W has softened a bit and recently has even signed an email with hugs BUT seriously....there is a family here.
There was not even a discussion about that before she left. Yes, I was not open to discussion as I was always defensive. Look, I get it I messed up. I just want some relief and to be foregiven.

My W did not even send my a happy new years text.

I don't know maybe I should not be on here reading what I should and should not do???? I wanted to send her a text at midnight saying happy new years. I sent a very kind text to ever one of my friends and even her parents but not her. It all feels so un-natural. Yes, I know that is the point of all of the DB stuff.
BUT at what point do we all just say.....�we deserve to be with someone that truly loves us�. If our spouses truly loved us would they not make the effort to REALLY try to understand why they were unhappy before they left, therefore showing how much they value the marriage and the family.

My therapist basically said the main ingredient to marriage is commitment. Commitment to working through everything because your marriage is the most important thing in your life. Our WAWs did not have that commitment at all.....they walked. Sure we were to blame but what about their role?
I am not pointing the finger at my W and saying it's all her fault but I just can't believe that my W is going 100 miles and hour and never going to turn back.

Yesterday I went on the Rejoice Ministries website for the first time. I am not religious at all. I read the story of the founders. Basically the husband got up and left his wife, and years later decided he made a mistake. His wife took him back. It was not much more complicated than that. They are now dedicated to helping couples work through challenges. The big thing is that they are working with COUPLES.
I am not a couple. My WAW feels she would be better off with someone else (unknown).

I think that pretty much sums up all of us on this board. Our spouses left us, for whatever reason. We need to all recognize that and move on. If by some act of fate they change their mind we decide at the time if we want them back.

Yes, this act has changed us all and given us a great gift. It was the gift to look so deeply into ourselves to change what we can to be the best person we can. That is what I mean when I say that this was the best thing to happen to me in my life. I was unhappy who I had become and this has put me back on the right path. I just can't imagine the girl I married has no interest to even talk to me about our M given the great children we have.
She has convinced herself that everything is great and the kids are great and all is fantastic.

I think you can see I am very angry right now. I just got 2 emails from my x in-laws. Both were nice wishing me happiness for the new year with my kids. I feel like ripping a strip off them a mile wide and saying 'you rewarded your daughter for destroying a family'.

I think we kid ourselves with all this DB stuff. Yes, we do it for ourselves but the fact is this�.our WAW will come back to us if they feel like it PERIOD. The truth is they usually don�t. I think if you really look at these posts that the majority of success is men coming back to their marriages. I don�t see hardly any women coming back.

My parents called yesterday and said they would like to see my W and I get back together. This is an absolute 180 for them. It was nice to hear that but it made it worse for me. I know in my heart that my W will never come back. I guess by staying on this board I keep up some kind of hope. But does hope stop us from accepting the reality �� that�s called denial.

FED UP !!!!

Brother whitney,

THAT was not a rant, but you are on your way. But let me encourage you to rant HERE, and not to your S2BXW and/or anyone who is in contact with her. My mistake is that I have ranted to people whom I thought I could trust, only to find out two things were terribly wrong with my assumption of trust: (1) 'good' friends often think they know what is best to tell XW that you said and when to tell it, often getting all of it wrong, and (2), the fact that I mentioned XW's name, regardless of what was said, was relayed to her and SHE filled heard what she wanted to hear and filled in all of the blanks to fuel her anger for me and justify her actions to herself. So...be careful.

What I found was that XW had quickly gone about 'claiming' our friends as HER friends, giving them the ultimatum that they were either HER friends or my friends, but she would not have them in her life if she was not the chosen friend. One very good thing that came out of that is that I found out who my really true, good friends are...ALL single men, with no wife or GF to further manipulate the decision.

As manipulative as my XW was, I was more saddened by how weak-minded and weak-willed many of our supposed friends are, than I was by her manipulation, which was rooted in her hurts and fears. But, from my sadness came clarity. Clarity on who IS a friend and who is NOT. Clarity about the fact that trust is not to be given lightly and when one's trust is betrayed, that betrayal is disappointing, enlightening, and hurtful. That fact helped me further put my betrayal of my XW's trust into proper perspective; to better walk a proverbial miles in her shoes... somewhat. Anyway, I digress...as I often do.

Back to your situation.

Some of the realizations I have come to over my 3 years, as a left behind spouse, is that I cannot focus on what I think i deserve if I really expect to take a critical, honest look at (1) who I was and what I've done and (2) who I intend to make myself into and what is the best, most direct, and most instructive path of getting from where I am currently to who I intend to make myself into. This is all a choice, and further need in another area of your life to start with a BEGINNER'S MIND. Neither you nor I know everything about much, and tossing aside our egos and finding experts in our subject of intrerst and delving into new material/thoughts and critically thinking about this new paradigm and how it fits (or doesn't) into our lives and goals is step 1.

What happened yesterday, and how you were in the past, is irrelevant (unless, of course, we are talking about your goodness). The past is the past. It can neither be relived nor undone. Learn from it. As the saying goes, unless we learn from our history, we are doomed to repeat it. That is not good for the 'stuff' that we do not wish to have repeated. This also goes along with not continuing down cheeseless tunnels and/or continuing our own insanity by repeatedly doing the same things over and over and expecting a different. If we want change, change starts with us. Change and happiness is an inside job.

Find a way to replenish your spirit. Being drained only leads us to do desperate (and in my case, sometimes stupid) things. Being fed up is only one step closer to surrender. YOU control your attitude. I will tell you, that in my case, my faith is what has kept my head above water and kept me in the game of saving my M. I respect that you are not religious at all. I am. Again, this is another aspect of your life to look at with a BEGINNER'S MIND. Perhaps you are still closing yourself off to possibilities that are in your best interest because of what you already KNOW. A possibiltiy...?

Quote:

I don't know maybe I should not be on here reading what I should and should not do???? I wanted to send her a text at midnight saying happy new years.

Banish those thoughts. In Christianity, fellowhip is key to giving one strength in his mission, to add more determination to his resolve, to give accountability when needed, to deepen one's faith. You don't control her. You don't live inside her head. You don't feel what she feels. You are stuck in making assumptions and assumptions are almost always negative and counter-productive. I have felt much of your are feeling, as I am two years deeper into my situation than you are into yours. Focus on you and what you add to others and to the world without adding your expectations to what you get back for what you have done. Having expectations has always led me to feelings of disappointment and despair; feelings of entitlement and deserving. One action that has helped me to feel grounded and in control of my emotions is to reach out to others, XW included (but less so to her), by calling them to just say, "Hi, I thought of you and it made me smile." If I have to leave a message, I just tell them that and add that they just wanted them to know that thoughts of them added to my day and I just wanted them to know that, and no need to call back. (Of course, I would severly limit using this on S2BXW)

Quote:

I have been working 1000% on doing what I can to improve for myself and my family.

Great. What if what's needed is for you to be working on improving you one thousand and ONE percent!? Google 212 degrees and watch the 'movie' about the difference that only one degree makes between 211 and 212 degrees, then re-think your efforts. Henry Ford said that people too often quit without knowing how close they are to achieving their goal(s). Don't be that guy. If a running back breaks off a long run from his own end one-inch line with time running out and his team behind by less than a touch down and he is hit and pulled on and nearly dragged down from behind at the opposing team's goal line...does he stop? NO. Even if he can't see the goal because of the defenders' efforts, he KNOWS his efforts are worthy; he KNOWS only he can reach the goal; he KNOWS quitting is not an option; he KNOWS surrender is losing.

I am not done responding to your most recent post. I have a pressing commitment that I need to attend to. Quote from Platoon: "Change your mind, you *ss will follow." Change your mind. It's a choice. You control your mind and your thoughts. You control you.

BTW, Happy New Year, Brother.

Tom

p.s. I will finish this post to you later today.

Brother whitney,

THAT was not a rant, but you are on your way. But let me encourage you to rant HERE, and not to your S2BXW and/or anyone who is in contact with her. My mistake is that I have ranted to people whom I thought I could trust, only to find out two things were terribly wrong with my assumption of trust: (1) 'good' friends often think they know what is best to tell XW that you said and when to tell it, often getting all of it wrong, and (2), the fact that I mentioned XW's name, regardless of what was said, was relayed to her and SHE filled heard what she wanted to hear and filled in all of the blanks to fuel her anger for me and justify her actions to herself. So...be careful.

What I found was that XW had quickly gone about 'claiming' our friends as HER friends, giving them the ultimatum that they were either HER friends or my friends, but she would not have them in her life if she was not the chosen friend. One very good thing that came out of that is that I found out who my really true, good friends are...ALL single men, with no wife or GF to further manipulate the decision.

As manipulative as my XW was, I was more saddened by how weak-minded and weak-willed many of our supposed friends are, than I was by her manipulation, which was rooted in her hurts and fears. But, from my sadness came clarity. Clarity on who IS a friend and who is NOT. Clarity about the fact that trust is not to be given lightly and when one's trust is betrayed, that betrayal is disappointing, enlightening, and hurtful. That fact helped me further put my betrayal of my XW's trust into proper perspective; to better walk a proverbial miles in her shoes... somewhat. Anyway, I digress...as I often do.

Back to your situation.

Some of the realizations I have come to over my 3 years, as a left behind spouse, is that I cannot focus on what I think i deserve if I really expect to take a critical, honest look at (1) who I was and what I've done and (2) who I intend to make myself into and what is the best, most direct, and most instructive path of getting from where I am currently to who I intend to make myself into. This is all a choice, and further need in another area of your life to start with a BEGINNER'S MIND. Neither you nor I know everything about much, and tossing aside our egos and finding experts in our subject of intrerst and delving into new material/thoughts and critically thinking about this new paradigm and how it fits (or doesn't) into our lives and goals is step 1.

What happened yesterday, and how you were in the past, is irrelevant (unless, of course, we are talking about your goodness). The past is the past. It can neither be relived nor undone. Learn from it. As the saying goes, unless we learn from our history, we are doomed to repeat it. That is not good for the 'stuff' that we do not wish to have repeated. This also goes along with not continuing down cheeseless tunnels and/or continuing our own insanity by repeatedly doing the same things over and over and expecting a different. If we want change, change starts with us. Change and happiness is an inside job.

Find a way to replenish your spirit. Being drained only leads us to do desperate (and in my case, sometimes stupid) things. Being fed up is only one step closer to surrender. YOU control your attitude. I will tell you, that in my case, my faith is what has kept my head above water and kept me in the game of saving my M. I respect that you are not religious at all. I am. Again, this is another aspect of your life to look at with a BEGINNER'S MIND. Perhaps you are still closing yourself off to possibilities that are in your best interest because of what you already KNOW. A possibiltiy...?

Quote:

I don't know maybe I should not be on here reading what I should and should not do???? I wanted to send her a text at midnight saying happy new years.

Banish those thoughts. In Christianity, fellowhip is key to giving one strength in his mission, to add more determination to his resolve, to give accountability when needed, to deepen one's faith. You don't control her. You don't live inside her head. You don't feel what she feels. You are stuck in making assumptions and assumptions are almost always negative and counter-productive. I have felt much of your are feeling, as I am two years deeper into my situation than you are into yours. Focus on you and what you add to others and to the world without adding your expectations to what you get back for what you have done. Having expectations has always led me to feelings of disappointment and despair; feelings of entitlement and deserving. One action that has helped me to feel grounded and in control of my emotions is to reach out to others, XW included (but less so to her), by calling them to just say, "Hi, I thought of you and it made me smile." If I have to leave a message, I just tell them that and add that they just wanted them to know that thoughts of them added to my day and I just wanted them to know that, and no need to call back. (Of course, I would severly limit using this on S2BXW)

Quote:

I have been working 1000% on doing what I can to improve for myself and my family.

Great. What if what's needed is for you to be working on improving you one thousand and ONE percent!? Google 212 degrees and watch the 'movie' about the difference that only one degree makes between 211 and 212 degrees, then re-think your efforts. Henry Ford said that people too often quit without knowing how close they are to achieving their goal(s). Don't be that guy. If a running back breaks off a long run from his own end one-inch line with time running out and his team behind by less than a touch down and he is hit and pulled on and nearly dragged down from behind at the opposing team's goal line...does he stop? NO. Even if he can't see the goal because of the defenders' efforts, he KNOWS his efforts are worthy; he KNOWS only he can reach the goal; he KNOWS quitting is not an option; he KNOWS surrender is losing.

I am not done responding to your most recent post. I have a pressing commitment that I need to attend to. Quote from Platoon: "Change your mind, you *ss will follow." Change your mind. It's a choice. You control your mind and your thoughts. You control you.

BTW, Happy New Year, Brother.

Tom

p.s. I will finish this post to you later today.

Brother whitney,

THAT was not a rant, but you are on your way. But let me encourage you to rant HERE, and not to your S2BXW and/or anyone who is in contact with her. My mistake is that I have ranted to people whom I thought I could trust, only to find out two things were terribly wrong with my assumption of trust: (1) 'good' friends often think they know what is best to tell XW that you said and when to tell it, often getting all of it wrong, and (2), the fact that I mentioned XW's name, regardless of what was said, was relayed to her and SHE filled heard what she wanted to hear and filled in all of the blanks to fuel her anger for me and justify her actions to herself. So...be careful.

What I found was that XW had quickly gone about 'claiming' our friends as HER friends, giving them the ultimatum that they were either HER friends or my friends, but she would not have them in her life if she was not the chosen friend. One very good thing that came out of that is that I found out who my really true, good friends are...ALL single men, with no wife or GF to further manipulate the decision.

As manipulative as my XW was, I was more saddened by how weak-minded and weak-willed many of our supposed friends are, than I was by her manipulation, which was rooted in her hurts and fears. But, from my sadness came clarity. Clarity on who IS a friend and who is NOT. Clarity about the fact that trust is not to be given lightly and when one's trust is betrayed, that betrayal is disappointing, enlightening, and hurtful. That fact helped me further put my betrayal of my XW's trust into proper perspective; to better walk a proverbial miles in her shoes... somewhat. Anyway, I digress...as I often do.

Back to your situation.

Some of the realizations I have come to over my 3 years, as a left behind spouse, is that I cannot focus on what I think i deserve if I really expect to take a critical, honest look at (1) who I was and what I've done and (2) who I intend to make myself into and what is the best, most direct, and most instructive path of getting from where I am currently to who I intend to make myself into. This is all a choice, and further need in another area of your life to start with a BEGINNER'S MIND. Neither you nor I know everything about much, and tossing aside our egos and finding experts in our subject of intrerst and delving into new material/thoughts and critically thinking about this new paradigm and how it fits (or doesn't) into our lives and goals is step 1.

What happened yesterday, and how you were in the past, is irrelevant (unless, of course, we are talking about your goodness). The past is the past. It can neither be relived nor undone. Learn from it. As the saying goes, unless we learn from our history, we are doomed to repeat it. That is not good for the 'stuff' that we do not wish to have repeated. This also goes along with not continuing down cheeseless tunnels and/or continuing our own insanity by repeatedly doing the same things over and over and expecting a different. If we want change, change starts with us. Change and happiness is an inside job.

Find a way to replenish your spirit. Being drained only leads us to do desperate (and in my case, sometimes stupid) things. Being fed up is only one step closer to surrender. YOU control your attitude. I will tell you, that in my case, my faith is what has kept my head above water and kept me in the game of saving my M. I respect that you are not religious at all. I am. Again, this is another aspect of your life to look at with a BEGINNER'S MIND. Perhaps you are still closing yourself off to possibilities that are in your best interest because of what you already KNOW. A possibiltiy...?

Quote:

I don't know maybe I should not be on here reading what I should and should not do???? I wanted to send her a text at midnight saying happy new years.

Banish those thoughts. In Christianity, fellowhip is key to giving one strength in his mission, to add more determination to his resolve, to give accountability when needed, to deepen one's faith. You don't control her. You don't live inside her head. You don't feel what she feels. You are stuck in making assumptions and assumptions are almost always negative and counter-productive. I have felt much of your are feeling, as I am two years deeper into my situation than you are into yours. Focus on you and what you add to others and to the world without adding your expectations to what you get back for what you have done. Having expectations has always led me to feelings of disappointment and despair; feelings of entitlement and deserving. One action that has helped me to feel grounded and in control of my emotions is to reach out to others, XW included (but less so to her), by calling them to just say, "Hi, I thought of you and it made me smile." If I have to leave a message, I just tell them that and add that they just wanted them to know that thoughts of them added to my day and I just wanted them to know that, and no need to call back. (Of course, I would severly limit using this on S2BXW)

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I have been working 1000% on doing what I can to improve for myself and my family.

Great. What if what's needed is for you to be working on improving you one thousand and ONE percent!? Google 212 degrees and watch the 'movie' about the difference that only one degree makes between 211 and 212 degrees, then re-think your efforts. Henry Ford said that people too often quit without knowing how close they are to achieving their goal(s). Don't be that guy. If a running back breaks off a long run from his own end one-inch line with time running out and his team behind by less than a touch down and he is hit and pulled on and nearly dragged down from behind at the opposing team's goal line...does he stop? NO. Even if he can't see the goal because of the defenders' efforts, he KNOWS his efforts are worthy; he KNOWS only he can reach the goal; he KNOWS quitting is not an option; he KNOWS surrender is losing.

I am not done responding to your most recent post. I have a pressing commitment that I need to attend to. Quote from Platoon: "Change your mind, you *ss will follow." Change your mind. It's a choice. You control your mind and your thoughts. You control you.

BTW, Happy New Year, Brother.

Tom

p.s. I will finish this post to you later today.

Sorry, my wireless connection seems to have caused my to post my last post too many times. It kept timing out.

One thought before I go, please re-read my previous 2 or 3 posts slowly and mull them over. Please. You are doing what is right be being here.

Tom

Back again. Loooong part 2. Grab a drink. Sit back relax. I fancy myself quite a writer. You poor soul. Your stuck with me.

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My W left me and our family PERIOD.
She has not looked back for a second and is moving forward at the speed of light. She prides herself with her ability to make a decision, stick with it and never look back. It's both a great thing and a very sad thing. Her parents have rewarded her her whole life when she gets into trouble by bailing her out financially.

Yes, this is true. But leaving rarely ever comes out of no where. Signs are usually there, even if we didn't want to see them. Stop assuming about your wife. You cannot read her mind. Watch. See what happens. Listen. Take in information. Make up your own mind based on rational, objective fact.

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My W still is blaming me 100% for the whole thing.

My XW did, basically, the same thing. Recently, she has begun changing her tune, but I an untrusting of changes in her because 'changes' have come before that were temporary and based on other circumstances in her life. I do believe this will change for you, as well.

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My W did not even send my a happy new years text.

So what.... I know it hurts but, so what...? Stop expecting what YOU want her to do and understand that SHE is living her life, with HER hurts and HER disappointments, FOR HER.

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Yes, I know that is the point of all of the DB stuff.
BUT at what point do we all just say.....�we deserve to be with someone that truly loves us�. If our spouses truly loved us would they not make the effort to REALLY try to understand why they were unhappy before they left, therefore showing how much they value the marriage and the family.

Should/would/could and their horrible best buddy if need to be banished from your marriage/relationship thoughts. Live in the world of what IS. Focus on the possibilities and what may still be for you and yours. Your S2BXW is piecing her life back together as well as she is able. Please take the family from whence she cam into consideration when deciphering her chosen path/plan of action.

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My therapist basically said the main ingredient to marriage is commitment. Commitment to working through everything because your marriage is the most important thing in your life.

I agree, but a close 2nd and 3rd are communication and honesty. In fact, I think all 3 are essential.

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I am not pointing the finger at my W and saying it's all her fault but I just can't believe....

It seems you are, and YES, you can believe. Breathe and talke a deep honest look at you and your sitch.

It's fantastic that you went to the Rejoice Ministries website. I know that your are not a religious man, but I know that you sense that 'something' is missing from your life, and I am not talking about your wife. God made all of us in His image and that is why we have a conscience and a deep longing to find meaning in our own existence. THAT longing is a seed planted in your being when your existence was first thought of by Him. Pursue your curiosity locally. Fellowship is key to finding your truth. Fellowship will keep you accountable. Fellowship will keep you on the right path. Fellowship will surround you with like-minded people who have your best interests and God's will in mind for you and yours. But, do this locally, NOT just through a website, please.

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Our WAWs did not have that commitment at all.....they walked. Sure we were to blame but what about their role?

Yes, we were, for OUR part. Yes, they did, as much as they knew how to show it. Remember, we learn our values from our families of origin. As my past marriage counselor once described troubles in relationship, she said that (in this example, love) sometimes we want $20 of love from someone and that person only EVER has $5 of love (by our definition) but they are giving ALL of their $5 (love) to us willingly. Sadly, since we sometimes don't communicate even the simplest (to us) ideas to others in understandable (to them) ways, we are like to ships passing in the night, never meeting; never meeting each others needs. This is where Chapman's- Five Languages of Love helps.

Your in-laws are not 'rewarding' your S2BXW for anything. They are just taking care of theirs, which looks different to you obviously, but it's not about you. They have money and apparently they show it by giving money and buying things.

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I jst can't imagine the girl I married has no interest to even talk to me about our M given the great children we have.

Step out of yourself. Yes, you can. She's hurting, confused, angry and scared. Your children were not the problem, nor can they be the answer. You're looking in the wrong place, at the wrong people. Look at YOU. Make YOU attractive to her again. You once were. Be that again. You probably weren't following a game plan to get her to fall for you. It's learnable. Learn how! Truly start with a BEGINNER'S MIND. Your ego is NOT your friend. Not here. Usually not ever.

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I think we kid ourselves with all this DB stuff. Yes, we do it for ourselves but the fact is this�.our WAW will come back to us if they feel like it PERIOD. The truth is they usually don�t. I think if you really look at these posts that the majority of success is men coming back to their marriages. I don�t see hardly any women coming back.

Come to grips with the fact that YOU are angry at your wife. You are scared. You are embarrassed about YOUR mistakes. You hate that you didn't know what you didn't know.

By saying, "all this DB stuff," your are minimizing yourself, your wants/need, your own goals/hopes/dreams, and all of our goals/hopes/dreams. Don't do that. Not to yourself. Not to us who believe. Minimizing others is emotional violence.

I understand that your belief is that the majority of the stories is about the man coming back to the woman. Please consider that women are far more communicative and for more social than we men are. You are setting yourself apart as a man in two ways: (1) you are 'talking' to others about your pain, and (2)you are seeking help. Good for you. Don't backslide here. Most men wouldn't come here, let alone post. Too 'scary' to post about a man's fears, weakness, and hurts. Much easier to b*tch to buddies about the failures of their spouse and to seek answers and solutions. Don't delude yourself into falling back into the pack of DO NOTHING men. Be a leader and lead your family back to reconciliation and unity. In case you haven't noticed, YOU are the only leader in your family that anyone, even you, can see. Man up, my friend. Being the leader is often lonely. But being the leader is the answer here.

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My parents called yesterday and said they would like to see my W and I get back together. This is an absolute 180 for them. It was nice to hear that but it made it worse for me.

'Buy' two mental file cabinets and LOTS of folders for your brain. Label one of the file cabinets GOOD EXPERIENCES w/ or about WIFE and the other NOT-SO-GOOD EXPERIENCES w/ or about WIFE. The folders are each only big enough for the actual experiences; no embellishments, no reading into anything. Objective facts only. GOOD EXPERIENCES is where you file the experience with your parents. PERIOD! File it. It's a nice memory. Stop muddying it.

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I know in my heart that my W will never come back.

NO, YOU DON'T KNOW! You believe this negative thought because it loops over and over in your mind. Change that loop to a positive, affirming one. Cultivate your BEGINNER'S MIND.

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I guess by staying on this board I keep up some kind of hope. But does hope stop us from accepting the reality �� that�s called denial.

Start KNOWING. Stop guessing. Being here will help you to keep hope alive. And no, hope does not keep us from accepting reality...you KNOW you are going to be divorced. Not accepting that would be denial. Right now your are working at reconciliation of a failed relationship and your are DBing alone. But DBing alone is one more than would be DBing if YOU decided to give up.

Some quotes for you: Never, never, never give in. -Winston Churchill; "Change your mind, your *ss will follow." -Platoon

I am with you, Brother. Be with me. Be with us. All of us welcome the energy that comes from the hope and PMA of others whose stories are similar.

Your friend,

Tom

Ooops, forgot to fit this in. Part 3.

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I am fed up. I have been working 1000% on doing what I can to improve for myself and my family. I don't even get any crumbs thrown my way. Sure my W has softened a bit and recently has even signed an email with hugs BUT seriously....there is a family here.
There was not even a discussion about that before she left. Yes, I was not open to discussion as I was always defensive. Look, I get it I messed up. I just want some relief and to be foregiven.

Get over being fed up. You're just getting started. Your attitude is up to you. It's great that you have given 1000% percent. What is all this is needed is one thousand and ONE percent? Henry Ford said that too often people quit without knowing how close they were to their goal. Be the finisher, not the quitter. It takes courage. Pat yourself on the back. Throw yourself crumbs. Surround yourself with positive people who are on your side. Cheer for YOU.

Your wife has softened...file this in the GOOD EXPERIENCES cabinet. Take the e-mail hugs and say nothing. Be OPEN! Read nothing into this unexpected display of NICENESS from her.

No discussion. But signs of trouble were visible would be my guess. And defensiveness did not make the prospect of a discussion palatable or safe to her.

It's great that you get that you messed up. Give yourself relief and forgiveness from the one person you can NEVER run away from...YOU! Do that and your aura will change. Others will sense the change in you and in your attitude. She will, most definitely. But you won't truly forgive yourself until you have completely owned up to and taken responsibility for your contribution to the demise of your M over time.

Good luck, my friend, we are with you.

Tom

p.s. Google 212 degrees. There is a great video online about the difference only ONE degree can make. You may agree that you need that extra degree of effort.

Dear Tom,

When I wrote my "rant" I think I was as low as I had become since the B. I had been in a horrible spot for the last week. It was probably enhanced by the holidays and the fact that my W was running hot and cold with me.

Due to your fantastic guidance/experience and that of another poster on this board something has started to change in me in the last 24 hours. I believe I am starting to drop the rope. At least I "may" be starting to detach (in a loving way). At least I am not feeling as needy.

Yes, of course there were problems in m M and I was aware of them. I was just starting to research about them when the B hit. That is in the past now. So yes, I am starting from a beginners mind. I am starting to finally accept that this is my journey and my W is on her own. I had really been caught up in feeling that my wife truly did not care about me and was not effected at all by this. Another poster has finally made me understand that my W is also probably going through some tough pain. I don't want to see her in pain, but in some small way it makes me realize that I did matter.

Anyway, I just watched the 212 movie and it was fantastic inspiration. It actually charged me up. I am a very upbeat guy. I am known to posses a great passion for life. That is what my W feel in love with. I had lost that. I believe it's coming back again. I want to try and enhance that and just stay focussed on that for me and my children.

On new years I sent a few texts out to some friends and was amazed at the wonderful responses I got back. Sometime we forget about who we have become. I guess the incredible love and devotion to my kids has become really evident to the people around me. It's just so natural that I didn't notice it. I had been focussing so much on what I don't have with them, when they are not with me. I have to turn that around an focus on my career when they are not with me.

Today I am in a great place. As we all know the challenge is to try to stay in that place. It's a roller coaster and sometimes it can change in a blink of an eye.

The funny thing happened. I was texting with my W a bit and trying to keep the conversation going. She basically ended it and said I will talk to you when I get back in 12 days. I was so hurt that she just blew me off. It hit me pretty hard. Guess what happened???? A day after she told me that my daughters tooth fell out an my W sent me a text and phoned me. I had a nice little conversation and got off the phone. Normally I would send a follow-up text saying how nice it was to talk to her etc. This time I didn't even think of it. That I believe is the first feeling of "dropping the rope". What I had been doing had not helped with our R and quiet frankly had been really messing me up.
All of this is here for a reason. if my W decides she wants to come back then that is great. If she does not then there is also something else even greater going to come my way.

It's time for me to take back MY life and live it to the fullest for myself and my kids !!!

So, Tom thank you again for helping me see and feel even more !!!

You, my brother, are welcome. I loved your post. You sound MUCH better. I am so happy for that. I will post more in detail later (yes, OF COURSE!

), but just a quick post for right now to acknowledge YOU for turning the corner you needed to turn to allow you to SEE the positive possibilities in front of you and yours, and to congratulate YOU for making the DECISION to change YOUR attitude.

In a similar way that my friend, frank_D, helped me get through the worst of MY times, I want to help you (& others) get through yours (& theirs). frank_D also encouraged me to give back to others when I was emotionally able to give back because, by giving back, I would always keep what worked positively for me in my situation in the forefront of my mind to assist in keeping me from forgetting my fruitful efforts and to help me to NOT backslide.

Remember to surround yourself with others who are on YOUR side and who support your efforts in the vein of reconciling your damaged M and family unit. You seem to have good, supportive friends around you. Be with them often. Talk with them more often. Additionally, you have friends here. When all else fails, blog here. 'Talking' always helps me to organize and process my challenges and to make the best decisions on how best to proceed. Perhaps the same approach will help you. Regardless, you have at least two posters here who will walk what often feels like a deserted road but, it is NOT deserted.

Keep this in mind as your journey continues; you may have trudged through the 'worst' already, but you also may NOT have reached that point. Regardless, you will have MANY more peaks and valleys in your journey; personal, professional, marital and familial. Although everything feels personal, much of what happens is NOT personal. Others, including S2BXW, live their lives with themselves in mind first, NOT you. That fact hurts, but it's true. It's also sobering and helps you to keep in mind that while your troubles suck for you, their troubles suck for them.

Be humble. Be compassionate. Be present. Be real. Talk soon to you, brother.

Tom

p.s. Your PMA is yours as long as you decide claim it, nurture it, and protect it. Give the world the gift of the new and improved you.

Well, I went away with friends for the weekend to our cottage.
This morning W sent me a text asking me to get my kids passport photos taken next week. Then she gave me a report how they are doing on her trip with them. She was friendly. This seems to be a pattern (I think). I do not initiate contact and she last about 3-5 days and then contacts me. The problem is that when I hear from her I am way tooooo enthusiastic (needy) back. I am trying to just cool it down a bit. I am warm and appreciative to hear from her and I leave it at that.

The truth I have no idea why she is being warm. I guess I should not worry about it and just "file" under pleasurable experiences.

I have to really stay focussed on what I am doing and worry only about my kids.

Tom, do you ever initiate contact or do you wait for her?

Greg

Your situation is so sad. But what can you do about it. Nothing but have faith and then live with it. Your kids are so young but kids hurt even when they are adults. It just makes a mess. Stay positive and stay busy with things. If you are serious about getting back together, things would not include dating. Hang in there. Hugs!

_____________
Me/H 49/55
D29/S27/S23/D21/D20/D16
T/M: 30/29.5
Sep: 8/03

Iwantout thanks for the kind words and support. I just went and read your posts.
Please know that I am here for you as well as other on this board. I was such a mess and Tom has really given me the support to go on. I just found his posts one day and he and I have been writting tons (as you can see above).
I know it's tough to read these boards and see both men and women trying to reconcile. I know we wish that our spouces would wake up and help comfort us so that we could love them again.
As you say, there is nothing we can do except have faith. Well...there are lot's of things we can do. I too have worn out most of my friends with this but there is usually one that is still there for you. You really get an eye opener on your friends through a crisis like this.
Feel free to post to me.
There are a lot of people on her for you.
Your kids love you no mater waht and NEED you.

Greg

whitney,

I, sir, GAVE you no support. I simply shined a spotlight on YOUR strengh, YOUR resolve, YOUR commitment, YOUR love.

Reading others' posts CAN be tough, unless you take a sense of camaraderie and togetherness with people who share your intense wish to save your marriage and re-unite your family by proudly displaying your integrity and love. Gather the strength in knowing that you are NOT alone. Post to others by sending them prayers or positive thoughts, whichever is your way of extending yourself.

Everyday, YOU wake up and YOU determine which rocks YOU haven't looked under to positively impact yourself and,by proximity, your loved ones. Keep your attitude positive. And if your day doesn't start out positve, figure out what is your best and fastest 'pick me up' to start your day out in your best way. Know that a bad day for you is a wonderful day for someone who faces greater challenges. Be grateful for the wonderul aspects of your life. Count your blessings. Be strong. Grow. Love.

I congratulate that you recognize that may you have worn out most of your friends. Know two things about your friends and loved ones: (1) they love you and care about you and want what THEY see as best for you; they don't want you to hurt; (2)they do have a limit to listening to the same story, especially when they have given you advice and you haven't followed it; (3) spreading the wealth of sharing your sitch (chapter by chapter, so as not to confuse who you told what) will make it less likely that you are over-sharing with someone in particular, but this also afford you the opportunity to think, organize thoughts, feel, and heal.

I am with your brother. Take care of you.

Tom

Hi Tom,

So, since you have been doing this for 2 years longer than me I have a few questions.
Do you absolutely leave her alone, meaning no initiation at all? If you do initiate what is it in the form of?
Do you ask her questions about her life/relationships with other men?
In the 3 years have you initiated any R talk at all or have you just tried to be fun/positive in all interactions?

As I move forward I am curious about what has worked and what has not worked for you or have you just let time run it's course?

Do you do a lot of things with your kids? If so, does you W know about what you do? Do you invite her? Do you send her photos?

I am looking for specifics.

BTW I live in Ontario, Canada, but I am an American.

Thanks my brother

This is a copy of a post I sent another dad that has a similar situation and background as us:

"Hey Healthydad,
I have been following your thread and have posted a couple of times.
You and I and another poster "still hopeful" have VERY similar stories. "Still hopeful" has been so fantastic with me I thought I would try and make an introduction. Have a look at some of his posts as it may be helpful to you.
I am going to copy this post over to "still hopeful" as well to see if we can't all unite on all of this.

Greg"

whitney,

Most of what you will receive from others is INSPIRATION, not MOTIVATION. You have plenty of motive to sort out your situation. Many times what I need is to be inspired again; to be infused with energy and re-focused purpose.

Yes, I have been at my reconciliation process 2 years longer than you have, but that does not mean that I have all of the answers in my situation and I certainly don't have them for yours. As my friend, frank_D, pointed out to me long ago, I know me, my wife, our history and our interactions, better than anyone else could possibly know them. You live your sitch. You can't possibly fill anyone else on ALL of the details of what happens between you and your wife. What does all of this mean? It means that you relate your sitch to others to the best of your ability, read others 'take' on your sitch, consider it all, and then apply your best conclusion to which decision is best applied in YOUR situation.

You will learn that some things work for others that don't necessarily work for you. You will also find that sometimes you are cautioned away from something that is appealing to you in YOUR sitch and that does work for you. Others' situations and experiences will apply directly to you. Some will not. Only YOU will know what you believe will fit. Only experience will tell you if your hunch is correct, and sadly we don't find out whether our hunch was correct or incorrect until AFTER the fact. One this that will come with YOUR experience is getting to know yourself, your wife and your sitch better than ever before.

Now, to answer your questions directly:
1. If you want to know what worked for me please re-read my posts slowly. Sadly, a year of intensive posting is missing from my previous thread. One thing I can tell you is that, to the best of my ability, I did not initiate much interaction because XW made a concerted effort to let me know that we would NOT reconcile. So...I didn't pass on activities that she invited me to attend with our children. I didn't pass on her requests for me to take our children on HER time so she could do what she wanted to do. I didn't TRADE time with her for her to recapture time with our children that she chose to pass on for other activities...still don't. I didn't pass on helping her pleas for emotional assistance which were generally brought on by her own poor decision making. THIS is one area where I always stepped up and wish the ALWAYS was 'regularly' instead of ALWAYS. Always gave away my power and facilitated her present lack of knowledge of what it feels like to 'really' be in danger of losing me. It's impossible for her to have that feeling since I have repeatedly shown her that I am ALWAYS there for her.

2. I spend time with my children. We talk a lot. I give them ME. I don't make them share me with other people. This has worked well for me and them. On top of that, giving them ME is inexpensive. XW plans a lot of activities and play dates with children's friends (and with XW's girlfriends). What play dates really are are play dates for XW with XW's friends; the children off entertaining one another and the mom's face to face with each other. XW also very quickly introduced her DHs to our children and incorporated her spending time with her new DH with spending time with her children. Of course, our children felt short changed with this DH arrangement; they had to share mom's attention. The end result of that is that over the 3 years that XW and I have been apart, XW tells me that she 'really misses' her children and wants to come and see them on MY time with them and I ALLOWED THIS! UGH!

This is another area where I faltered in being a man in SHOWING her what the separation/divorce that SHE wanted so badly really looks like, because I have protected her from really experiencing it because of my own fears and reconciliation wants and needs. Boundaries are key. What I am working to change is to establish my boundaries and hold myself and XW to them. I have the option of allowing her inside of my boundaries, but if I do allow that, her behavior must be in keeping with the type of behavior that I allow towards me inside of my boundary. In the past, I didn't even put up 'fence posts' to erect my boundaries that she might run into by chance. Nope, with regards to her, I didn't even get those up. I all other aspects of my life I have very apparent boundaries that I keep to and hold others to. As HER mother once told me very early in our sitch, "You keep allowing her to walk all over you. She can't respect a doormat. Stand up for yourself." Three years into this, I wish I had changed my behavior back then, but since I can't change the past in any situation, I am changing my behavior going forward. Be standing up to my XW my end up being the death knell for my reconciliation wishes, because doing it the way that I have been is only killing it more slowly and painfully, which is worse for everyone involved.

With all of that said, XW has often called me up to participate with her in activities with our children. I do invite her to do 'stuff' with us, but she is the entertainment and activity mom. I usually do participate with her. Unfortunately, I have often chalked up her invitations to me as her simply wanting to connect with me. This is an area where I have perhaps misinterpreted her invitations because they are often preceded by semi-regular venting and verbal attacks on me. I suppose that watching sometimes can mislead me in deciphering XW's reasons for doing what she does.

Yes, I do send her digital photos to enjoy by e-mail.

--------------------------------------

Now which actions have I done that I am happy with in my sitch?
A. I am still taking a deep, critical look at myself and making sweeping changes in my previously not so positive outlook on life. In response to finding aspects of myself that are less than admirable, I look for information that I can implement to better myself. I realize that I don't have ALL of the answers.
B. I realize that even though I didn't cause ALL of the problems in my marriage, I did cause a good portion by making poor decisions because of fear brought on by my poor self-image. No excuses, but I didn't know what I didn't know and I didn't know myself well enough to understand that just because I didn't have the answers to make a better me didn't necessarily mean that those answers don't exist. I take responsibility for the damage that I contributed over time the the deterioration of our relationship over time. I also understand that I can't change the past, no matter how much I wish I could.
C. I have learned to stand up to XW's tirades and verbal attacks by staying calm and responding in a rational, even way. This type of response is different than how I chose to REACT before and it makes her madder. Once I respond, I tell her that I think it's time for me to go and I leave.
D. I've begun to be less emotionally invested in XW's self-destructive displays which used to really wreak havoc on my emotional well-being. I don't care any less, I have been gathering the strength to corral my emotions and stay within myself.
E. I have grown stronger in NOT initiating contact with XW. She has responded by initiating contact. Unfortunately, often that contact has come with my gaining more knowledge of XW's activities that I find hurtful.

Things that I have done not-so-well in my sitch:
A. I have reacted strongly and poorly to XW's self-destructive behavior. I have often taken her behavior personally, rather than simply continuing to disengage. I believe that I have unnecessarily prolonged my sitch be failing here.
B. I have intermingled my feeling for my children with my feelings for my XW. Working on changing this.
C. I haven't focused enough on me and my well-being when I am not caring for my children because I have repeatedly chose to divert my focus to my XW and her life. Often, when XW has the children, she will call me and ask for my help with them. I have usually responded by interrupting my time alone to go and help her with the children, but who was I kidding? I wanted to be for her and do for her because I had the misguided hope and expectation of my doing for her bringing us closer to being together again. I am still struggling with even feigning being busy. I am still struggling with staying focused on MY necessary activities.
D. I haven't kept a journal of ALL of XW's shenanigans. I haven't kept an accurate of all of her lies. This journal would simply be convenient to have to refer to XW's questions about her behavior when she is asking for specifics. Since I still haven't started this journal, and I have chosen not to memorize the dates/times/deeds, she simply dismisses what I share with her. Remedy? Starting today, I will journal everything to reply honestly and accurately with evidence to support what I tell her. No value in doing this except that she will be less likely to dismiss what I say about her behavior when it is backed by specific evidence.
E. I still haven't let go. As Phoenixdeux told me:

Quote:

Letting go doesn't mean it's over...it just means you quit pining away and start to look at her as your EX wife.

I tell you, whitney, being married is tough enough. Working to reconcile one's marriage is even tougher, especially when you re doing ALL of the lifting alone. I am working to let go, even though I am not giving up. I know that either way, I will be fine and my children will be great.

I know this was a lot of writing, but YOU posting and sifting though responses to find which one's ring true with you and yours is critical for YOU to make your decision about YOU. So...post more about you. Keep us all posted about whatever details happen your life alone, with your children and with all of you together.

Have a great day, Greg.

Tom

Well, in some way I am try to let go as well.

I had a great conversation with a close friend last night. I had been beating myself up that 75% of this was my fault. Of course we know it's 50/50. My friend pointed out that she feels actually most of this was my wife�s fault for never speaking up. Listen I am not interested in blame here. The truth is we both messed up. It just was nice to get a positive re-enforcement that I am pretty awesome the way I am and was.

I, like most of you have trouble seeing what I WAW is searching for, but that is her journey.

I have been getting better with starting the process of letting go. I have noticed when I leave my WAW alone that when she does contact me she is kind. When I contact her she is cold and short with me. Sooooo, I just won�t contact her anymore.

I get my kids in a few hours and am sooooo excited. I have them for a week. That is not usual for me but my WAW is on one of her new mini vacations. She has done this 3 times in the last year. It used to bother me now I just turn it around and know how fortunate I am to have my kids. I have noticed that my kids seem to be closer to me than her. I am not keeping the score but know this is because of the fantastic one on one time I spend with them. My W has a nanny and the nanny does many things "for" the kids.
I am so fortunate that I have the relationship that I now have with my kids. Just so damn sad that W never get to see this. She only remembers the family time as me being stressed out and selfish. I am 100% opposite to that now. I just did not feel that when we were all together as a family. Some of us are slow to get those feelings.

Anyway, as I have less contact with my W I find that it actually gets easier and I am able to concentrate more on my own life. Sadly, the less contact I have with her also let's me feel her slipping further and further away into her new life. But I can't know what is going on in her head and in her life. I do see some inconsistencies so I know she must have some struggles.

Another day goes by....

uh oh.....
I had been doing really well for a few days.
I have had my kids since Tuesday so I am happy. The problem is when I have the kids I really miss my W. She and I emailed each other back and forth on Tuesday night. It was light fun and nice. I have not heard from her and I am wanting too.
Man, I just wish we could be a family again. I just will never get how my W does not even want to talk about it. But that is why we are all here....

Hi Whit,

I too know what you mean. Some of my hardest days are the ones that I have my d. Especially after she goes to bed. I spend the rest of the night thinking about xw.

"I just will never get how my W does not even want to talk about it. But that is why we are all here...."

In my case my XW tried. It was me that didn't want to recognize there was a problem. So I am guessing your XW probably tried before ever mentioning a word about D. Basically she tried and it didn't work, so she has written this part of her life off. I am guessing yours did as well!!! I have read your post and you seem to put most of the blame on her. Maybe she senses that, and that why she's not talking.

My XW is willing to talk about R and we do almost everytime we are together. Sometimes positive and sometimes negitive. Which I will work to change, I want her to remember the good things. She is always clear in stating that its both are faults and she can't go back. She always says she wants to be my friend and that it. She as moved on. This hurts, but its expected, she is protecting her hurt.

I get advise from family & friends all the time. They say I should cut all communication. Show her its all or nothing. I don't know what road to take. I have tried in the past to cut communication and find that I am to weak. She sends me a txt after a few days and I respond. And its usually something about d5, but that gets the communication going, and i want more.

The one thing that I have learned with the LRT is that she is much better at them than me. I am always wanting more, but she is in the drivers seat. My XW has stated that she felt alone for two years and abandoned. So I worry about cutting off all communication, thinking that this would only validate what she thought all along.

So I say, send your xw a txt. Just to say hi. Maybe she'll respond maybe not. I would leave it at that though, don't push.

Just a thought!

Good luck man, be strong and do some good today!!
CZ

Well....yep...that is exactly the same situation as me. I actually have shown her I was at fault, worked on changing everything that I can and apologized. But I get the similar speech as you do. Anytime R talk has come up I get the "you let me down so badly that I fell so far out of love with you that I don't have the will or desire to fall back in love". She then says she recognizes all the wonderful changes in me as well.
So, for me I continue on my path working so hard to be a great father and to be as nice and considerate as I can with her.
As most of us start to realize the journey is really for our WAW to make. They are having their own demons to work through.
I just emailed my W to ask her if it's alright to get my daughters hair cut short. My D has asked for that. My W was very nice and said it would be fine and ended her email with a smiley face. When I leave her alone she usually contacts me over an issue with our kids and is very nice. I just can't seem to move things further than that. It has been a year and there has not been a single word towards our situation at all.
It's just so hard to be finally experiencing all the wonderful things that life has for me and the kids and to not have her with us.
It's as simple as that. I miss my family being all together $\:\($

The reward will be worth all the hard work and effort you've given in the end. Stay focused.

I am with you but sometimes we just miss our W and family so much. I wish our W knew how much we missed tham and that it mattered.

So, in the last few days my W and I have emailed about the kids. All of a sudden she is all syrupy sweet to me. She sends happy faces at the end of emails, tells me to have a nice night and to have a great time with the kids skiing this weekend.
Man, I would love to give her a 2x4 and say smarten up here we have a family, let's start to deal with this.
It just feels like W thinks this arrangement is great. It feels like she thinks that kids are all fine and having fun and her and I get along great...
I don't know, maybe these are baby steps or maybe she thinks I have finally accepted this.

I was thinking last night that this just seems like a bad dream that does not go away. My W and I had sooo many happy times together as we did almost everything together.

Just don't get it. But of course we never get what is going on in our WAW's head.

Just frustrated this morning ! We just seem to stop at being nice to each other and never seem to be able to move any further. It's been 13 months now.
Does the WAW ever think about her kids and how important that they have a family that stays together is? I guess not as they felt there was no option but to leave.
You know I was to blame in a lot of this BUT why is D the only answer? What happened to trying everything to make it work?

I think our throw away culture is so much to blame here. The media just portraits all of these happy images and tells us to go get happy if we are not. What happened to integrity and commitment? I think those attributes are gone in society in general.

Hi Whitney,
Your W sounds so much like my XW. I struggle everyday questioning my friendship with her. I think to myself, I want it all or nothing, but I struggle with the nothing.
And like yours, everytime she contacts me, its about daughter.

This sucks, I hate being divorced. My life used to be great, now it sucks.....

Tell me about it. I don't dare even post what my life used to be. I married into a very weathy family. BUT all I want now is just to have a simple life with my kids and family back together.
My W and I have been texting back and forth all morning, but as usual just about the kids. Anytime I throw anything in there about what she is up to or what I am working on she just ignores it. It's like she has been reading books on how to be divorced.
It's such a waste of a beautiful life and family. I am from a divorced family so I KNOW what it's like. She is not from a divorced family.
I am also just so damn fed up.
I just want to say "what are you doing"?. You have the greatest life available to you so let's start to put it back together.
She just seems more interested in dating other people.
I don't get it !!!!!

whitney,

I am confused, like so many here. I see one behavior through my own life filters and interpret its meaning as I do. I could be seeing reality in my sitch or I could be seeing only what I want to see. Everyone in my life has told me that I need to disengage. Everyone has told me that XW needs to 'feel' the reality of being divorced. I am petrified to the point of doing what I've done all along, and THAT behavior pattern was simply a precursor to my being divorced.

I have posted on my thread that XW told me ages ago that addicts are the most manipulative people in the world. Not sure if she IS an addict or if I simply don't want her to be one soooo bad that I fail to recognize that DENIAL is not just a river in Egypt. I know that it is best for all in my life for this situation to end sooner rather than later, regardless of the outcome. Phoenixdeux said it to me best:

Quote:

Letting go doesn't mean it's over...it just means you quit pining away and start to look at her as your EX wife. I've been where you are. I'm remarried to her, so I know there is hope...but it was just being open to possibility of reconciliation, without actually expecting it, that was more helpful.

Continuing along the same path I have been on has certainly prolonged my situation, but I am unsure if that is good. Perhaps it was supposed to end long ago. I don't really think so, but perhaps.... I simply want closure to my sitch. I want to be done and move forward or explore the opportunity to reconcile and move forward. Either way, I want to move forward. For me. For my children. And yes, for her.

I posted a bunch of stuff on my thread. If you get a chance, pop over there and read it. More stuff about me and my sitch.

I'm not tired of hoping to reconcile. I am just frustrated at the lack of movement in my sitch; the lack of movement in my head; the lack of movement in her. Perhaps moving on MY part will spur movement in my sitch, my head and in her?! I hope to find out soon.

Thank for listening.

Tom

Ahhh Tom,
Good timing. I have been thinking and wondering the same thoughts.
My W and I just had a flurry of emails over the last few days. We even got into a fight and actually for the first time worked through it in a mature, sensitive way. It left me wanting more from her and to be closer. She made it clear if I ever wanted to talk about the kids and any issues with us that she would be fine with that and that we could even do that in person. I could see that she has had no realization on her part at all and has moved on, never looking back for a second. I think if I asked her out she would probably go, but that goes against DBing.
So, I too am confused. Am I supposed to continue to keep the dialogue open and try to get to friendship or am I to disengage.

I too am frustrated with the lack of movement....

Not sure what to do. I think I may pull back again and just leave her. Most people seem to think that she needs to come to me and that I must move forward in life. I do know that it hurts more to be closer to her.

Thanks for hanging with me, Brother,

Yes, I am seriously frustrated with the lack of movement in situation and my lack of willingness to force movement by disengaging from her when she calls. Her 'XW-itational' pull on me is irresistible at present. Her pull keeps me in my orbit, and that is not good. I can't be her play toy forever. She will either learn to show me respect as a person, as a man, as the father of our children and as her husband or I will force the movement in my situation from my end.

I do know that my situation will move my situation forward this year. 2010 will NOT start the same as 2009 has started.

Quote:

I simply want closure to my sitch. I want to be done and move forward or explore the opportunity to reconcile and move forward. Either way, I want to move forward. For me. For my children. And yes, for her.

I just don't want to make hasty changes that have kept me in the reconciliation game this far despite being told for 3 years by my XW that she is all done.

Nope, I haven't come this far in hopes of reconciling, playing by rules that I don't really understand, to push when the right time hasn't arrived for the best possible outcome for all. I have held of on making a phone call to XW's GF who was instrumental in getting me to break through my fears of being COMPLETELY honest to my XW about my past un-confessed self-inflicted disaster mistakes. XW's GF was also very persuasive in getting XW to open up about her true feelings for me that they had previously discussed privately. Regardless, although I had suspected XW's true (and unconfessed to me) feelings about me and us, this was really the first time that I had confirmation of my suspicions. Nice, but possibly dangerous to touch.

I could make contact with XW's girlfriend and simply ask her questions about XW privately between us, but that opens up the risk of GF simply telling XW that I called her to talk, which would come across wrong when told by XW's GF to XW than it would if I either cleared the discussion with GF with XW first or simply let it go and continue to fly blind. Any thoughts? Probably just let it go and fly blind more, I would guess.

I really want to KNOW more about what loops in my XW's head, but I don't want to find it out by forcing movement in my sitch to soon or by simply making the mistake of choosing to contact her GF to find out more and having her GF tell her before telling me anything. Heck, it doesn't matter when GF tells XW that I contacted her w/o XW's knowledge or OK. Perhaps it's all just a bad idea and I shouldn't spend any more mental on brain juggling this hand grenade?

Who the heck knows? I sure don't. And, as XW (seems) to move closer to me, I get sucked in (willingly and stupidly) and end up acting like the useless wuss that I know killed her attraction for me originally. Sadly, I don't act this way with anyone except my XW. Even more sadly, she is the one who matters most to me to act like the alpha male that I am with everyone else in my life. As, I said, movement in my situation is paramount to me, but I don't want to remove an infected splinter with a shotgun. Too much damage. Potentially lethal to my reconciliation efforts.

Anyway, I've ramble on way longer than I intended. It's going on 1am and I gotta get D8 to school in the morning. Take care, Brother.

Tom

Hi Tom,
yep, same exact situation with me.
I would not talk to friend even though she may hold information you want to hear. The friend will tell your W and that will makes things worse.
You and I are in the same boat....the ONLY thing we can do is move on with our lives. We are kind to our W when they contact us but we need to move on.
If they want us then they will come back. PERIOD.
Is is so sad and messed up but we can only work on us and our children.

whitney,

Thank you for being siding with the rational, well-grounded part of my mind to stay out of the detective business. I know that the upside of knowing more is minimal and the downside is ruinous.

I'll keep working on me, taking care of my children, and striving to detach in a loving and supportive but still assertive way.

Again, I know that phoenixdeux's advice to me is the way to go, as MY way has simply kept me stuck and prolonged my sitch, perhaps unnecessarily. I don't know the answer for which I search, but I do know that MY way is not THE answer to achieving my reconciliation goal.

I don't wish to keep XW emotionally afloat while she searches for another BandAid (in the from of yet another DH) to get her through missing me, her marriage and her united family unit, while she she continues to REFUSE to think, process, feel and heal. An emotional tampon, I will be no longer. She can always talk her emotions out of HER personal situations with her GFs, and I am NOT one of those. I strive to be her husband again, NOT another one of her male 'good friends.'

So, yes, I will inch away from my XW emotionally and gently direct her to other people in her life who, in her mind, are more important to her than I am, so she can squeeze all of the emotional drama out of her crises. I need to create some emotional distance between the two of us so that I can clearly determine how best to proceed.

Thanks.
Tom

Hi Tom,
Happy I can help in anyway.

What I have learned is to only talk about my W with one friend that does not know my W.
I had been talking to mutual friends and learned stuff about my W that I didn't want to hear. It ended up effecting how I viewed my W, in a negative way.

This morning I dropped my D off at school and out of the blue she started crying and would not let me leave. One of the teachers snatched her from my arms and she was crying for daddy.
It breaks my heart as I know my D has the extra burden of our D to also live with. I texted my W to tell her what happened and to my shock she actually phoned me back to see if I was alright.
She has never phoned me like this in over a year !!
I sent a text to say thank you for calling and she sent me back a text with a hug. Woooooow.

I am just going to continue to keep my distance and not initiate.

It's all we can do.

whitney,

Thanks again for helping me to side with my own voice of reason. My experience in talking with mutual 'friends' that know XW has been mostly that the women want XW to 'pull her head out' and the men want me to disengage, move on and forget about her. The consensus on this board is clearly to let go and move on. If she wants to come back then she knows where I am and then I will have THE decision to make, won't I. The hard part is letting go of my 'perceived' control of my sitch. But who am I kidding besides myself? I don't have any control in my sitch, only control over me and I have done all that I can DO to initiate reconciling with my XW. She knows what I want w/o any R talk.
I am sad to hear about the effects of your D on you D. I am sooo saddened by the effects of my D on our children. I remember in the beginning, XW told me that some of her friends had told her that divorces don't really affect small children. I told her immediately that whichever 'friend' told her that had no clue. Everything I have read tells me that a divorce is a 'DEFINING' time in a child's life. They FEEL everything. Not understanding makes it even more confusing for them, as they often incorrectly blame themselves. Let's hold us together together, my friend. Yes, it's all we can do.

Today, is the day that I initiate disengaging and holding on to the outcome. Of course, I will remain open to reconciling, but I will stop chasing and stop being an emotional tampon Spending time hear reading and posting helps me to move forward, even if it's just a little bit at a time.

I need to be the man that both she and I need for me to be. She can't reconcile her M with me acting like a GF of hers.

Tom

p.s.

Originally Posted By: still hopeful

I need to be the man that both she and I need for me to be. She can't reconcile her M with me acting like a GF of hers.

Think about this: Other women are attracted to you. The 'real' you. You show XW the 'sanitized' you. Show her the real you. The man with boundaries and goals.

Hello everyone,
So here is my latest update.
W seems to have decided to change things up a bit. Generally we text each other 99.9 % of the time. She has now started to pick up the phone and talk to me when there seems to be an issue for us to discuss. Of course it�s always about the kids.
Yesterday I asked her to help fill out some forms about the kids. She was kind of blowing it off so I got a bit huffy. She wrote me an email about all the years of her filling out forms for our kids etc. I knew immediately that I had hit a nerve. I picked up the phone and apologized to her which she was surprised and appreciated hearing. Then I wrote out a list of things I have appreciated over the years that she has done. She replied saying thanks, that it meant a lot to her to hear that.
This further made me realize that there have been so many assumptions made due to lack of proper communications and that she is carrying around a lot of hurt. I have also realized that she still blames me for all of this and has not accepted any responsibility at all.
I just don�t know how to proceed with her at this point. I almost feel like we need to get together and clear some air about lack of communications. I know that goes against DB to have relationship talk but I don�t know.
Thoughts anyone. I would LOVE to hear from a WAW.

I know the feeling of ME reacting to her changes in behavior and that's when I know I am focusing on her instead of focusing on me.

I have been making slow but steady progress in (1) detaching emotinally and disengaging behaviorally and (2) continuing to file ALL intereractions in the corrects folder in which these interactions belong. The first folder is labeled pleasant interactions. The second is unpleasant interactions. My 'filing' is only finished when the interaction has been pared down the the ACTUAL objective interaction, meaning it includes NO subjective feelings, emotions, sub-text, nor mind reading.

This helps me to keep an objective, real, running log of my life with my XW. Of course I am always aware of the subjective feelings or emotions wrapped around our interactions, but I need to keep track of the true nature of the happenings in an objective way so that I am able to weigh where XW and I are relationship-wise. When I allow subjective feelings to negatively color objective actions between us, I ruin my reality unnecessarily. I'd rather not do that. I work to stay in control of me and my reality.

Anyway, I would fight the urge to 'clear the air' with your XW. SHOW her you are different. She will notice. Everyone will. Most importantly you will, but you need to notice your improvements/changes in a congratulatory or inspirational way, not in a denigrating assessment of how you used to be. Celebrate your progress. Focus on you. Focus on the future.

All of you work on you is your gift to you. Regardless of what happens with you and your XW, you get to keep your gifts to yourself. You will share the new and improved you with someone. It'll be her loss if she can't see the present and remains stuck in the past; don't make it your loss.

Tom

Tom,
So well said, yet again.
I had decided to do just that. Be who I know I am.

Even today that was tested. The school called today to say they are having trouble with our 6 year old D. They phoned me first and then my W. They said that they have trouble with our daughter on the days she is going to go home with the mom. Interesting....welcome to the effects of divorce.

W phoned (as I knew she would) and I just listened. I asked W what she would like me to do. Of course W said our daughter is great with her (I know she is not) and that it must be issues that other kids are bringing on. Ya....denial. Maybe our D is looking for attention because she is struggling as we are divorced.
Anyway, I found that interaction to be fine but it actually left me losing a bit of feelings for my W. I think it was because of her denial that our divorce is causing hurt with our children made me lose a bit of respect for her as a mom.

As a loving parents should we all not fight to the death to make sure we provide a great loving home with 2 parents. I guess not according to our WAWs.

Hey brother,

More parallels between us. My XW started out our separation and impending D by telling me that D really doesn't affect children. She knew because her 'friends' told her children are young and elastic; they snap right back. I told the then, as I still do now, she was wrong and way off base when she is. I am not going to join the line of a$$ kissers and apologists that she has assembled to pump up her self-esteem and false sense of truth. I may not have any other useful function in her life, but if she talks to me she will hear the truth, as least as I see it.

Last night, D8 came to me. D8 is selling Girl Scout Cookies and XW gave me verbal instructions last week, but the actual written instructions contradicted XW's verbal instructions and were complete. Not knowing if overriding instructions were given verbally to XW, I called to verify. XW instantly was aggressively defensive. I was calm, deflecting, and assertive. We ironed out the instructions. D8 had a good Girl Scout Cookie selling evening.

Tonight, XW left me a VM about the cookie sales. I can always tell when I am getting closer to being removed from 'the list' when XW begins answering my calls again and begins calling me instead of texting me. No real plus in this, except it is an accurate barometer of her emotions about me. She asks me about my family. I called back and asked her, "You left a message about D8's family?" She paused and continued with, "Yes." I again reminded her that her family and mine are D8's and S3's family without segmenting whose family of origin they are. She didn't say much, but she understood my point that she and I may be divorced, but D8 and S3 are not divorced from their family of origin on BOTH sides.

XW asked me if I was going to call my family and I said I wanted to let D8 decide if SHE wanted to call her family herself for cookie sales. XW quickly answered for D8 that D8 would want me to call them. I asserted that I wanted to give D8 the opportunity to answer that question herself. XW said she would ask D8 and if she didn't call back then D8 wanted me to make the calls. I told XW that I didn't want to use a NON-call as my answer. XW snapped that we didn't both need to ask D8; she said she would ask D8 and she will. I answered, I believe you, I just need some information about the cookie types from D8. This defused XW's defensiveness and edge because of my calm and assertive manner.

Today is another day of my moving forward in detaching emotionally and disengaging behaviorally from my XW. I congratulate me for not outwardly expressing my emotions to my XW. I know that soon, with my undying concerted effort, my emotions will catch up with my outward appearance of strength, calm and quiet assertiveness.

Tom,
We seem to be just about the same place as far as detaching.
It's hard !!
My W have never got along so well as we are now. She is finally pushing back when something bothers her. Still it's only focussed on the kids.
I hate saying this but ... I still can't believe this is happening. I can't believe my W is not doing anything to save a marriage and a family. Especially given how well we are getting along.
I can�t write much to day as I am feeling really upset about this.
Here comes the emotional roller coaster again......
At least I get my kids tonight and that makes me so happy. Lately I have been feeling sad for them having to live a life where they get bounced around from home to home. My kids claim they like it as they have two homes. I am from divorce and I can tell you it's not so good. My kids will long for their parents to be together until they are into their 20's.