Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Jeff223 Moving Forward - slow but sure - 05/30/07 05:16 PM
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A long list indeed. Been over a year. Last thread was a bit off for me so I want to repeat the opening here.

Brief recap:
Me: 51, WAW: 43; two kids: S9 and D6
Bomb (I don’t love you – I am leaving next month): Jan 06
She never left but I moved out to give her space: 11 May 06
She wants a D (via an email): Jun 06
Complaint for Divorce filed D: 11 Oct 06

WAW wants a D and will not consider changing her mind. I made changes and worked hard and I was hoping for a turn around. But nothing has changed and now it is time to move forward.

No, I am not quitting. But there comes a time when if you love someone you must not hold them against their will. If she feels certain that I am no longer right for her, then she cannot be right for me. That is her decision; it says nothing about me.

Time to *man up* and be a man, not a boy.

I haven't been letting go of W. I am letting go now. I'm sorry she is gone. It's nobody’s fault; it's just the way it is. I must accept it; I cannot move forward until I do.

It is time to GAL, move on, focus on me and my children. Time to banish the anger and hate and frustration. Time to live for me, not for validation by others.

I am not a failure here. I am happy and my life is full.

Opportunities await. Even the fear of the unknown.

Strength and Honor.
Posted By: WCW Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 05/30/07 09:45 PM
I am first! I get the prize. Is there a prize? I'll take a fishing trip, or a trip the Smokie Mtns.

IMO, it takes a long time to let go when you get 'the bomb'. It is a process that we don't really control, it is our heart and our mind that control 'letting go'. When we thought we had a good M, when we know we signed up for the life commitment, when better or worse is what we know is part of life, when we have trained ourselves to hang on for the long ride - it is not an easy job to retrain our mind and heart to let go. Time is our friend.

Chin up, keep your eyes on the horizon. Look where you want to go.
Posted By: JohnS58 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/02/07 04:21 AM
Hey Jeff -

Just got caught up on your thread. For what it is worth meeting other women and dating was the last thing on my mind since the D was finalized last August. It took a long time for me to get to the stage where I wanted to be with someone again on any level - the past two weeks in fact. Not to co-opt your thread but I met a nice gal recently and we went out for dinner together this week and had a great time. Nothing serious - just getting to know each other as friends. I also went out for drinks the previous week with a neighbor of mine in the condo. I enjoyed both experiences although if my ex were to call right now and ask me over for coffee or dinner I would be there in a heartbeat. I know however that is not likely to happen from what I have read about MLC. The gist of all of this is that somewhere inside I have finally accepted the idea of not only moving on but getting used to being in circulation again. It's good to know that others are interested in you as well. It's funny how this all plays out in time. Stay strong and keep focused. I think you are doing great in spite of the situation you are in. Things do and will get better.
Posted By: BaseballAnnie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/02/07 02:58 PM
Hey, Boo,

Are the kids out of school yet?

So when's the trip to TN? If they like baseball, take them to a Smokies game. They have a cool stadium in Sevierville.

If you didn't visit Cades Cove the last time you went, take that drive; it's lovely.

And if you go through Knoxville, a burger at Litton's is a must.

Enjoy your trip, enjoy this time with them, focus on your blessings.

besos,
BA
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/05/07 01:28 PM
Lock and loaded Jeff. To Better Men.

I'm here for you.

Strenght and honor.

FIB
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/06/07 02:36 PM
Posting less but that is a good thing. Life is upbeat lately.

I got the kids for most of June and we are catching up. Nice to have the extra time. We will be leaving for Gatlinburg next week and stopping at Chattooga for a few days on the way back. Same as last year but that is what the kids want to do. Should be fun.

I feel good. Dropped 10 of the 15 pounds I gained since end of last summer. Still want to lose those five so I am not embarrassed at the swimming pool.

Big news: I met with stbx yesterday at the house for a mini mediation session (without a mediator) to discuss the D settlement. Stbx got a small dog; had it for a few weeks now. For the kids she said but for her too I think. Funny my kids did not mention it. Cute little thing I have to admit. She got it via friend’s litter so she did not just get one to keep her company while I have the kids. But I think the timing is good for her here. Better than an OM to keep her company I guess.

The “mediation” went much better than expected. The last time she threw everything back in my face. This time she was very reasonable. I think all this DB stuff and communication skills paid off. Rather than argue, I used “I feel” statements and listened.

When we discussed finances I told her what I felt was fair. At one point she asked about the house; she was thinking of staying there. To tell the truth the thought of a new house appeals to me so I said I would be open to that. But as the discussions progressed I caught myself becoming angry. Why should I move? I already moved to an apartment to give her space and now I have to clear out completely while she does nothing?

But rather than get angry I just told her how I felt. I said to be honest I wanted her to move and part of the reason was I hated what she was doing to us and that I felt she needed to feel some of the pain here. Interestingly she responded well to that honesty. If fact when I said that I felt that I have done more than what was required here, she agreed under her breath; “I know you have”. So she said she would move out and I will buy her half of the equity.

We discussed bank accounts and she said mine was larger that hers. I said I did not understand that b/c she has no house or car payment; where is the money going? She admitted she was not on a budget and that she did give some money to her sister so she agreed not to divide the extra in my account. She also agreed we both keep our own retirement accounts, good for me b/c mine is higher than hers (she will work longer than I will so she will catch up, but it was more than fair of her to do that – a concession for the 40/60 custody split I think).

We also discussed parenting provisions and she listened this time without argument. This is her hot button topic. We were discussing joint legal custody and she did throw out the term controlling – “all I want is control”. Instead of reacting I stated that control was not the issue – I am the father here, signing away my rights via a power of attorney like clause in the provisions was a non-starter. I want my day in court if it comes to that; I will not sign now giving her final say in all matters (as the current temporary provisions state). She said she would discuss this with her lawyer.

At the end of the day I got the house, my bank account and my retirement account. Custody split 40/60 which I can live with. The parenting provisions are close but still work to do.

With luck I will be divorced before the end of summer.

Yes folks, luck. I am ready. I did all I could here. This is a path she must take and I cannot “control” that.

As I was leaving we embraced and I kissed her. She smiled big time. As I drove off I looked at her in my rearview mirror. There she was, holding her new dog, with a sad look. Just like a scene out of Casablanca.

Yes, life is good today.
Posted By: princess_nic Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/07/07 04:09 PM
Wow, Jeff, things are moving along here.

Your last paragraph was so poignant. This must be hard for her too; she had the same dreams you did, she's just not able to do what it takes right now to make them happen.

That sounds like a really productive discussion. Well done! You did a great job, and netted a lot of what you wanted. At least she listened to you about the kids; her L may recommend that she go along with you.

I'm glad life is treating you well.

Nic
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/09/07 12:33 AM
Bicycle....fish....dog.

WTG Jeff. Better man.

I likey.

FIB
Posted By: WCW Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/09/07 01:38 AM
Will you be my mediator?

How odd that the kids did not talk about a new puppy. They must have been instructed very well, but for what reason? What else does she make the kids hide from you?

Sis said it's so dry there that the ranchers are flooding the market with their cattle. Everything is dried up, no hay to be made. Don't worry about that 5 pounds, there's no water for the pools.
Posted By: I_Still_Love_Him Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/12/07 03:53 AM
Jeff...

You sound like you are in a good place. Yes, I'm sure it still hurts but once we realize that we have done everything we could, the best thing to do is LET GO.

That conversation seems to have gone really well and I'm sure she will be fair when it comes to the kids as well.

To end the conversation with a hug and a kiss and you feeling good about yourself is a sign of strength and character.

You will meet a wonderful lady and what a lucky lady she will be.

Hugs,
ISLH
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/12/07 01:55 PM
Thanks all.

Off to Gatlinburg today and then Chattanooga. Ten days. Fun.

I am in a good place but I am so sad we cannot try again. It is so pointless that she is so sure.

But that is just wishing for things that cannot be.

WCW: the puppy? I doubt it was a secret. She always wanted to get a dog for the kids. I like dogs but I am not a trainer of dogs. I hate friendly dogs who are not nice to live with. She would not train it either so I always said no. If I say no, for whatever reason, I am controlling. So she hated me for *denying* her and the kids I guess.

So now she has one. Suprised it took so long. One more point of closure for her WRT to me. But the reason the kids did not say anything is they could care less about pets. I hear more about the Haunted House at Gatlinburg than about any dog.

John: very good to hear from you. Lady friend? You mean there is hope for guys like us?

Nic, FIB, ISLH and BAnnie: Thanks for your thoughts.

Talk to you all again soon.
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/12/07 02:26 PM
Have fun Jeff..kids, kids, kids, kids. Truly...I'd like some details when you get back. Always wanted to make the trip to Gatlinburg down from Cincinnati but never made it ( I used to live in Cincy).

Immerse yourself.

Frank
Posted By: BaseballAnnie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/12/07 03:32 PM
Wow, interesting post, Jeff.

First of all, your anger is palpable. From what I can see, that chip ain't gettin no smaller...

What do you mean, "She would not train it either so I always said no"?

Did she declare, "I want a dog but I do not intend to train it"?

Or did you just assume she wouldn't?

And based on that assumption, you "said no"?

Um, and how come you got to "say no" anyway? Weren't you both adults, parents, partners?

Or were you given the trump card at the ceremony?

IMO, that does sound controlling, and for a reason...

Hope you have fun in Myrtle Beach in the Mountains...
Posted By: I_Still_Love_Him Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/15/07 03:36 AM
Jeff...

Have fun with the kids and hope to hear all about your trip when you return.

Lady friend? What do you mean "is there hope for guys like us?" If you haven't found a lady friend yet, it's because God is being very choosy and will send the right one as soon as he finds her.

We'll miss you.
Posted By: princess_nic Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/16/07 09:23 PM
I hope you are all having a GRRRRRREAT time!!

Posted By: Confused_in_AZ Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/18/07 03:00 AM
Jeff,

Hope you have/had a great time on vacation!
Posted By: WCW Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/22/07 11:44 PM
Hi Jeff, how's that vacation? are you back home yet and resting up?

I know what you mean about dogs that don't behave, and in many ways it is wise of you to recognize the limits of what you could accept. But....being I am a type that cannot/chooses not to live without animals in my life your stance seems pretty strong. There is always a compromise (take a puppy to training, get a small dog) but the point is I am glad you stood up for no dog instead of having a dog that ended up being uncared for, neglected, stuck in a kennel barking all day and night while it watched the family come and go while the dog stayed alone and lonely. That would be a LBD, Left Behind Dog, and we all know how painful it is to be left behind, even if you are just a dog.

So........let's hear about vacation!!! and pictures! ;\)
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/23/07 02:02 PM
I am back from 10 days in Tenn. Time with the kids was great. They had a wonderful time. We are all tired.

The time with the kids was great but the rest of the vacation sucked. We went to two *family* vacation spots so the constant reminder is that a family is two adults with kids.

I saw family after family, happy and content. Their kids seeing how adults intertact, how the parents shared the parenting roles. How kids asked their dad certain questions and mom others. How the parents got to talk to each other as adults and not just interact with the kids.

My kids were asked where their mom was. Did I need another menu. My hotel rate is for two adults and two children. The 'package' attraction tickets always had that *extra* adult ticket.

It sucked.

Constant reminders, day after day, that I am a single parent and a failure.

It sucks.
Posted By: neli Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/23/07 05:07 PM
Quote:
that I am a single parent and a failure.


Jeff we can't have you talking like this. You are about as far as it gets from being a failure. You are a succesful single parent. I thinkit sucks that those family vacation spots only count for two parents and if you go with a different package it costs you a lot of money. Heck I may actually end up complaining that I am being discriminated against for being a single parent.

LIke you said she is taking her path and you are taking your path. You are a solid individual with a lot to offer. And you kids will benefit from that now and in the long run also.

Neli

Posted By: I_Still_Love_Him Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/23/07 07:40 PM
Jeff,

I'm glad you enjoyed the time with the kids. Remember that the firsts of anything you do will bring back memories of your family that included your W. The more memories you make without her, the less of her you will be thinking as you will have new wonderful memories that didn't include her.

I know what you mean about those "family packages", why do they always assume it includes 2 adults? Maybe next time, there will be another adult. ;\)

Quote:
Constant reminders, day after day, that I am a single parent and a failure.


Jeff...you are far from being a failure. You did the best you knew how and you have learned so much this past year. If you are a failure then what does that make me, having already gone through this twice? If your W won't let you show her what you have learned and that you are a better man, then how about showing someone else. I consider our WAS the failures because they gave up. You didn't give up and we're not giving up on you so don't give up on yourself now.

Now that you have spent some quality time with the kids, it is time to spend some quality with some adults. Call a friend or two and go have some fun. It is not like you to feel sorry for yourself and we won't let you.

Post back here after the weekend and tell us something fun you did.

Hugs,
ISLH
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/23/07 08:58 PM
Jeff....my turn, click here first:

For Jeff to Click on

Did you finish N.U.T.S.?

If not, go back to page 1. Why not line up everyone on this website as failures? Why can't YOU look at your W as the failure? Since when did you decide to take a birdbath in failure doodoo??????

Jeff...do you think I'm a failure? If so, I don't know the person I was talking to on the phone this past year..because THAT person was NOT a failure.

FIB
Posted By: SDFoundGirl Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/24/07 04:42 PM
ABSOLUTELY NOT MR. JEFF!!!!!!

I won't have it. Don't you EVER call yourself a failure. Failures are people who stay stuck, who don't recognize their mistakes, who continue to choose failure. You have fought valiantly: for your marriage, for your kids, for YOUR personal growth.

You've made mistakes, yes. And guess what? You are going to do that for the rest of your life just like the rest of us mortals. One of my favorite quotes that I use frequently with my eighth grade students and have hanging on the wall of my classroom is:

"Just because you make a mistake doesn't mean you are one." --Unknown

You are an incredible guy. Think of all the people you've helped on this site--ME included. You have grown tremendously as a human being and as a dad. I don't call that failure.

Now, no more ugly thoughts/feelings/words about yourself. PMA, man. Love yourself. Treat yourself well. Be gentle.

SD
Posted By: Jen_Jam Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/24/07 05:44 PM
Why do you say you're a failure? In which context are you a failure?

If it's because your M failed, when you gave it all you could, well, then I have to say you're not. You saved you from you - remember you said you didn't have half as good a R with your kids pre bomb as you do now? That is not a failure, your R with your kids is a blessing, one that may not have come about if it were not for the bomb.

Bombs are there to save us from misery - I know mine did, I can see many others on here whose eyes have been opened.

So, Jeff, please spell it out. In what way exactly are you a failure?
Posted By: neli Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/25/07 12:31 AM
Jen: I agree with everything you said. My bomb also saved me from misery. My MIL said last night I am a happier person now.

Jeff you rule.

Neli
Posted By: princess_nic Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 06/26/07 11:12 AM
Jeff,

I'm leaving for FL in a couple of hours, but I wanted to post before I go. We're all packed and ready, and the kids are still asleep - miraculously - so I have some time.

I'm glad you had a good time with your kids. I am fearing exactly what you experienced - that I will see so many happy, intact families together and feel bad.


But here's the thing: you don't always know from looking at people what's going on behind the scenes. Some of those marriages are really very happy. (Thank goodness! It gives us something to look forward to.) But not all of them are. I know that H and I looked like a very happy couple, but we weren't for a long time.

Many of the families that you see together are probably not bio-families. You don't know. It could be a second M for one or both parents. Realistically, there would be a good number of those, if half of all M's end in divorce.

It really is ridiculous how those deals work, I agree. I think there should be "single parent" options. When I was looking to go on vacation alone last year, I got depressed b/c all the packages were for two. If you were alone, you had to pay a "single supplement"! Talk about rubbing salt into the wound!

Jeff, you are a single parent, but you're not a failure. Why would you say that? There are plenty of married parents who aren't doing a very good job of raising their kids, how does being single make you a bad parent? It's not related.

I know that you preference would be to have a healthy, intact family - it's the same for all of us here. But those aren't the cards we've been dealt.

No doubt, you did fail in some ways in your M, as did your XW, as does every human being. You have become a better man, and you know what your mistakes were. You will not repeat them. "Failing" to save your M does not make you a failure. This was never up to you alone, so you cannot be entirely responsible for the end of your M.

I know that you know all this; I do hope that you're doing better today.

~ Nicola
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/05/07 03:29 PM
Journal:
Things have been quiet this week without the kids. It is good to take a break from parenting and play catch up in other aspects of life. I do get the kids this weekend and then former W takes them to the beach for a week mid-month.

I have been working the D settlement. Former W emailed twice wondering why I was taking so long. Really ticks me off - she wants it, I do not yet she is doing nothing on it but complaining that it is not happening fast enough.

I was polite the first email but she crossed a boundry with the second (which had a threatening tone) and I called her on it. She backed off. What a tone of communication: guess that represents future interactions. I must let her anger and hate bounce off. I must not let her actions and comments control my emotions.

Nothing more to report. Feeling stuck again. I just want it to end. I just want to live again, to start over, and to get past this feeling of failure. That must become my focus. It will.
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/05/07 03:47 PM
It will. Thanks again Jeff....for your help. FIB
Posted By: RonJon Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/06/07 06:29 AM
Jeff, My S14 said something profound about being a failure, probably because S16 sometimes throws the barbs out. He said that a person is not a failure until they stop trying. Also, we get on S16 because he didn't pass his drivers test twice now so it helps that we can talk about these things. Takes the power away from it by talking about "things that are not currently going our way".

Hawaii was a great place to live but not a great place to be going through a D, kind of like seeing couples at the parks with kids. In HI, there were all these old couples holding hands and walking together that were married, like for 50 years, kind of like envisioned. But then again, who knows if they were on their 2nd or 3rd or whatever, still will be there as long as keep trying. These things take time, patience is the key. RJ
Posted By: I_Still_Love_Him Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/07/07 03:25 AM
Hey Jeff
Quote:
It is good to take a break from parenting and play catch up in other aspects of life.

I hope you are focusing on YOU and getting your life back. As hard as it is, you need to get out and start enjoying yourself until one day, YOU DO feel good again.

Quote:
I must let her anger and hate bounce off. I must not let her actions and comments control my emotions.

Absolutely and if you need to wait 24 hours to respond, then do it. Be the better person and of course don't let her cross the boundary.

Quote:
Nothing more to report. Feeling stuck again. I just want it to end. I just want to live again, to start over, and to get past this feeling of failure. That must become my focus. It will.

Get out and have some fun. Once you do, you will realize that you are alive and can have fun without her.

As for failure, the marriage failed but you are not. As Teddy Roosevelt said "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." You wanted to try to make things work but it is your W who is the failure.

Focus on YOU and you too will come through this a better man.

Hugs,
ISLH
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/07/07 03:09 PM
Thanks everyone. I guess I really don't feel a failure. But I do feel empty at times b/c this is so difficult to accept, even after 18 months. I still keep expecting that phone call from former W saying "let us try again".

But I get just the opposite from her.

So I must remind myself she is different now - no longer right for me. I must also remember she is also hurt and confused - but that is no excuse when she tries to hurt me. Her anger is her problem - not mine. I have accepted my role in this.

Something I said on FIB's thread: Our spouse has simply fallen out of love with us and feel as guilt-ridden about it as we feel pain about their leaving. Our board here is a place to rationalize our pain for something that we don't understand and find difficult to accept.

There comes a time when you have to move on. I miss my WAW and wish I could have her back, but I am coming to understand that the stbxW is really a different person and I don't want her.

That realization gives me strength, not defeat. Sure, I still feel a failure at times and share that here, but deep down I know I am not.

So, time to build that *new* me and treat all this as the opportunity to grow that I did not have in my M. A life based on strength and honor.
Posted By: Jen_Jam Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/07/07 03:20 PM
Hi jeff

I'm glad you cleared that up. You are not a failure. Your M failed, yes, but YOU are no failure.

I can imagine the emptiness, but in order to move on you know you need to let go .... easier said than done, I know. But there is a bright future awaiting you somewhere, if you go and find it.

I've found a few quotes too which may help....all from Helen Keller

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.

Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.

Self-pity is our worst enemy and if we yield to it, we can never do anything good in the world.

Everything has its wonders, even darkness and silence, and I learn whatever state I am in, therin to be content
Posted By: SDFoundGirl Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/09/07 09:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Jeff223
I was polite the first email but she crossed a boundry with the second (which had a threatening tone) and I called her on it. She backed off. What a tone of communication: guess that represents future interactions.


A couple little things Jeff. First, just because EW's tone sucked then or even a dozen times does NOT mean that future interactions were the same. The past is over, the future hasn't happened yet, so don't create stories in your mind that make you dread interactions.

One strategy that's working for me is a writing exercise called a Rampage of Appreciation. Essentially, you write down everything you admire or respect about the person. I even did one for LW, and it's helping me let go of a lot of my anger toward her by focusing on her positive qualities. I did the same with H's crazy sis before I had to see her, and it changed the way I entered the situation. You could also try a Rampage of Anger which allows you to put down every ugly thing you're thinking and feeling inside about a person or situation. I burn mine when I'm done, sort of a release of all that negativity, then I write a gratitude journal or rampage of appreciation.

Second...why are you putting your life on hold? PMA/GAL is even more important right now. Let go of what you can't control, take control of what you can.

You're giving your power away. Take it back.

SD
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/13/07 02:01 PM
Jeff...where are you buddy? FIB
Posted By: bleak2dismal Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/15/07 03:23 PM
My situation:

Brief recap:
Me: 49, WAW: 46; three kids: D18, S16 and S10
Bomb: Discovered she was having an affair with a friend (former) of 18 years: July 05
August 05: Divorce motion filed
Sept 05: Provissional order- me out of the house, I pay everything, std. visitation rights
Jan 06: Mediation fails. She wants 60% of everything in cash. Retirement accounts, ect. I would re-start life way in the hole. She does concede equal split on parenting time!
Sept 06: Trial for divorce is called off due to my witnesses not being able to attend (teachers and first day of statewide testing). I am given primary physical custody of S16, and a reduction in child support of $6.00! I continue to pay everything else.
Feb 07: My attorney fires me because I claim he has done nothing but rack me for $13,000.00 in legal fees.
April 07: I miss a pre-trial court date because I no longer have (or can afford) legal representation. Judge rules court date of Sept 5th and 6th (2 day trial) cannot be changed and the court will make final decision on that date.
May 25th: Trial to continue spousal support until date of final hearing. Spousal support had terminated at the end of April. I represented myself. I receive the notice on June 10th that the judge ruled that I was to continue to pay spousal support June-Sept, however I would receive a direct 50% credit against the marital assets for this. I call WAW and tell her to stick it up her ---. I was done paying everything. I was broke.
July 6th: Trial for contemptofcourt charges. I represent myself. I make a house payment the morning of the trial. I submit this to the judge, as well as state the house payments are current. Prior court order does not state that I was to pay the May house payment. Judge rules I am not in contempt of court, but I must pay the June through Sept house payments.

Maybe not so brief. Anyway, my question to any of you that can help:

How do you get past the anger over what she did?
How do you get past the anger of watching your kids go down hill (I caught my S16 smoking pot with 3 friends in my house 2 days ago. He also flunked every class he took his Freshman yr. H.S.)
All of our kids speak to both of us defiantly)?
The divorce has polarized the family. D18 never stays with me. S16 never stays with her. S10 splits time evenly. How do you get over the anger of seeing your kids lose their relationship with their parents?
How do you co-parent with someone you blame for screwing up all of our lives?
How do you quit loving someone you have spent 28 years of your life with (even after what she has done)?
How do you get over wanting to drive 4 hours and beat the [censored] out of a home wrecker?

These are just a few of the most important questions I am dealing with. Today marks the 2 year anniversary of the discovery of the emails and the affair. Two years. Wow. And I still can't make any sense out of what is going on.
Posted By: JSD Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/15/07 03:37 PM
Bleak2dismal,

First, I had a similiar situation as yours and my wife's lawter played legal shinanigans during our divorce. I could very easily by bitter and angry. In fact, I do have those minutes.

First, forgiveness is a descision. It is not for her its for you. Bitterness will eat you alive. You are giving your power to her. Forgiveness also does not mean forgetting. By letting go of the anger, you give a gift to yourself and can concentrate on you GAL.

Second, you know the saying. A person who defends himself has a fool as a client. No offense and I had $30k in leagl expenses so I understand. In otherwords, be careful.

Good Luck and God Bless,

JSD
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/15/07 10:24 PM
b2d-
Thanks for posting on my thread. I thought I had it bad.

First off, do start a new thread of your own here or in newcomers. I note you had one going back in May - but things change. You will get more support with your own thread but I am glad to help.

As to your stitch, here goes:

First thing to do is to find another lawyer. The initial consult fee is normally low. If you spent $13k in fees to date your case must be really complex or your first lawyer was unethical (lawyers don't fire clients) or both. You don't spend that kind of dollars in Alabama unless it is a full blown custody battle which yours does not seem to be.

Regardless, from your brief description you have no choice but to get a lawyer. Borrow the money if you have to.

Here in Alabama, and we rank 49th in almost everything, the court will mandate IC for the kids. Check into that. Court ordered IC is usually cheaper than paying your own way with a private IC. And your W should be responsible for half of what cost there is. Sounds like the kids need that.

Go to http://www.divorcecare.org and find a support group near you. They will help you and your kids. There is divorce care specifically for kids in addition to you. I have not gone myself, but I got good feedback. Real time local support will get you past that desire for the four hour drive.

Another resource to check is http://www.uptoparents.org for help with the kids and co-parenting.

Getting past the anger: buy "Mars and Venus Starting Over" by John Gray. That is the best book I have on getting past this stuff. If you read my stitch I fell into hate, real hate, often. I am doing better now and I reference that book often. The book will teach you to let go and remember the R with love and forgiveness. That is how you co-parent.

My state will also order family counseling when co-parenting is an issue. Again, she should pay half.

How do you quit loving? You never do. Instead you move on and get a life of your own. You accept your part and change what is in your power to change - and accept what you cannot change.

Luck to you. Two years is a long time but it will get better.

Strength and Honor.
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/15/07 10:31 PM
I am still here FIB.

Me a failure? Only a failure would even think that \:\)

I am back on top again. The view is nice.

I got my "final" settlement papers to former W and she "agreed". Now we will see what the lawyers say. That was empowering - I felt doing the papers as very positive for me.

I am a sorrowful about my M ending and my role in that. I feel sorry for my kids as well. But we will do fine. I will do fine.

Sometimes the trials in life suck but without them there is no growth. Our trials point to the opportunities that are there for the taking.

Strength and Honor.
Posted By: neli Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/16/07 11:35 PM
Hang in there Jeff. My final settlement is being drafted this week. I am ready for this chapter to be over.

I am sure having this part of our lives over will be a huge relief. \:\)

Neli
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/17/07 04:15 PM
neli now down.....(sigh) FIB
Posted By: I_Still_Love_Him Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/18/07 01:55 AM
Jeff

You sound great.

Quote:
got my "final" settlement papers to former W and she "agreed". Now we will see what the lawyers say. That was empowering - I felt doing the papers as very positive for me.

While some people would think the end is approaching, now that I am on the other side, believe me when I say, it isn't; it is just the beginning of better things to come. Since my D, I've felt like I have taken my life back. I don't have to give up who I am in order to make someone else happy.

Quote:
Sometimes the trials in life suck but without them there is no growth. Our trials point to the opportunities that are there for the taking.


Absolutely. I have to admit that some of the greatest lessons I've learned have been from the hardest times I've faced in my life and I've faced a few. The one greatest lesson I've learned is that if you truly believe in a higher power, whatever it is we each believe in, you will come out of each of these situations a better and stronger person.

You already have and you will continue to become an even better person because of this. God does not allow things to happen to us if he felt we weren't strong enough to get through it and YOU HAVE.

Hugs,
ISLH
Posted By: JohnS58 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/30/07 11:36 PM
Hi Jeff - Sorry it has been so long since I last posted. I have been getting on with my humdrum life and have largely been enjoying it. Believe me though, there are times when I still go into a post divorce funk and find myself pining away for how things used to be. However, I found a recent post of yours to be profound. You wrote: "Our spouse has simply fallen out of love with us and feel as guilt-ridden about it as we feel pain about their leaving. Our board here is a place to rationalize our pain for something that we don't understand and find difficult to accept." After nearly a year of being divorced it is still difficult but it is certainly bearable. There are even times where I have been able to forget about it and really enjoy myself.

I am still dating but the relationship is not very serious even though we seem to enjoy each others' company. More ominously, she appears to be going through some of the same mid-life crap my ex went through so I have to watch out.

Please let me congratulate you on moving on with your life in such a positive and dignified manner. I also greatly admire the kind words you provided to our friend "Bleak2dismal." Your friendship, support, advice, and heads-up knowledge remain an inspiration.

I hope the summer goes well for you and the kids, and that things will progress with your ex so that you are able to maintain a cordial relationship.

Best wishes

John
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 07/31/07 01:10 PM
Jeff...still here....still with you big guy.

To John...I've read all your posts. Time...healing. You'll be OK. Frank
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/01/07 01:48 PM
Thanks all. Nothing much to report.

I have not seen my kids in three weeks due to summer vacation but I see them tomorrow. I am looking forward to it. Emotionally I have been a bit down, sorrow mostly. Sorry for what could have been but cannot be. I hope the kids perk me up.

Saw my lawyer yesterday and she is reworking the settlement. Not many changes so it should be quick. Once the papers are final and signed, the judge signs and we are history. No need to even appear in court! The settlement is fair - I made out better financially but I had to accept the "standard" visitation 40/60 time split. But after doing the standard for a year now (under the standard court order) the judge would most likely not change it anyway. Price I paid for moving out to "give her space".

Oh well - quality time over quantity.

My lawyer is in her late 40's and I learned she remarried since I saw her last (before Christmas). Quick romanace, but the bad news is that her new H learned he has cancer and the outlook is not good. She reminded me how fragile life is and how she wished she could shake my former W to learn to appreciate what you have.

Sooooooo, life continues on. I hope it gets better for me and the others here.

John - long time. Thanks for keeping up. So old guys like us really can date again??? I hope you are in good health and your employment opportunities continue. Keep busy.

Strength and Honor.
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/01/07 09:42 PM
Jeff...taking a little break on mine but checking in on others. Life is quick and we know the saying 'time is a thief'. We should all enjoy it while we have our health. FIB
Posted By: TNP Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/02/07 05:45 AM
hi Jeff,
First off thanks for keeping in touch.
You know we only have this present moment to be happy in, then it is gone replaced by another one. We should try to be happy now.

Go well,
Paul
Posted By: SDFoundGirl Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/04/07 12:00 AM
Jeff--

Do you remember Liz7? She's finally back on and doing well. Her thread is here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1151182&page=1#Post1151182

Hope you're doing well!

SD
Posted By: I_Still_Love_Him Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/04/07 07:15 PM
Hi Jeff

A response to your post on Nicola's thread:

Originally Posted By: Jeff223
An old Italian proverb: living well is the best revenge.

That's one smart Italian person ;\) Not only is it the best revenge but ultimately the LBS learns to find their own happiness without the WAS. I was reminded again today when my friend, who left her H (3 yrs ago now) had to let her DDs go away for one week with her H (yes still not D) and OW and know that it still hurts. She asked me if the pain of seeing her DDs enjoy being with their dad and OW and being part of a family which doesn't include her, ever go away.

So while she appeared to be happy when she walked away, she is still paying the consequences of her decision 3 years later.

Originally Posted By: Jeff223
ISLH: Sooooooo men are like Mercedes 500 convertibles???? Just how is that? Sleek lines or the horsepower???? \:\)

Horsepower - to keep up with me
Sleek lines - to catch my attention
Purring engine - to whisper sweet nothings in my ears
Nice body - tells me he is confident and likes who he is
Open sunroof - tells me he is ready to accept and share himself with someone else
Classy colour - grey or black and definitely not red - while I like a red car, it tells me he is only looking for attention and therefore is either very cocky or insecure (JMO and may not always be the case)

If I can find a man with the characteristics of a Mercedes 500C, I will have the man of my dreams (and hopefully the car too) ;\)

How is your summer going? I really hope you are focusing on being happy. We all deserve it.

ISLH
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/07/07 12:29 PM
Long time no hear....(cough).....what's new with YOU? FIB
Posted By: WCW Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/07/07 01:03 PM
Quote:
I hope the kids perk me up.
Well? are you perked up yet?

Hard to believe you can get a D and not even have to show up for it. You can't even close on real estate that way! Something is way wrong with that.

Now Jeff, meeting with your lawyer is not GAL. Doesn't count at all. What are you doing to put a smile on your face?
Posted By: BaseballAnnie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/10/07 02:37 PM
Hey, Stranger...

Long time, no chastise.

Say something to us, so I can jump on it.

It's hot, and I'm cranky.

Last summer, it seems we spent more time on top of the mountain, where it was cooler...

What happened?

besos,
BA
Posted By: I_Still_Love_Him Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/10/07 03:03 PM
Quote:
Hard to believe you can get a D and not even have to show up for it. You can't even close on real estate that way! Something is way wrong with that.


Unfortunately, the courts would be back-logged but maybe there would be more marriages saved. Too bad that there is more worth put on real-estate than on human beings. \:\(

Where I live, as long as you are S for 1 year, and a request for a D is made, it will be granted unless you have reason to contest it. You can't even say, I won't sign. It doesn't even matter.

Hey Jeff, have you visited the top of the mountain this year. I remember, you helping me up there along with BBA. Update?

Hey BBA,
How are you? I can't seem to find your thread. I want to know that you are doing great.

ISLH
Posted By: BaseballAnnie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/10/07 03:06 PM
um, you don't have to show up for a real estate closing either.

Hey, ISLA, I don't have a thread, no reason to, nothing to report.

Just checking in on a few of the peeps after an extended absence, to see how they're doing.

kisses,
BA
Posted By: WCW Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/10/07 03:26 PM
Quote:
um, you don't have to show up for a real estate closing either.
I do. Ha! there is those two powerful words. Changes your life forever. Good or bad, and both.

Come on out Jeff, we know you're lurking!
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/19/07 02:28 PM
Maybe it is time for an update. But there is nothing to update really. Been over 100 degrees each day for the past two weeks. Uggg.

I am busy at work and that keeps my mind off things. But just below the surface I still feel wounded and stuck. A good friend sent me this:

"Hey my friend....

Been thinking about you a lot this past week as I crossed a series of "milestones"....something I've realized, Jeff, is that it's okay to feel "hurt"....to feel that longing for "validation" and recognition that we ARE working our asses off in a horrible situation....we feel so ashamed over everything - and even moreso that we're still feeling instead of running around all happy happy happy like the books all say we "should".

Bottom line - it hurts. Deeply. And we're allowed to feel it.

And I too have problems "letting go"....I'm not sure it's xW I want as much as being married - as having my identity back as a man, father, husband - that is what was taken away from us - and when our ex wives refuse to even give us the slightest bit of acknowledgement, it hurts all the worse - and it is OKAY that we feel this....."

That is how I feel. My life has been ripped from me and it hurts.

Strength and Honor.
Posted By: RMG77739 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/19/07 10:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Jeff223
That is how I feel. My life has been ripped from me and it hurts.


Jeff,

Those are VERY true words....

RMG
Posted By: DonH Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/19/07 11:22 PM
Wow! WOW! Man-oh-Man all I could keep thinking while reading your post was "Me Too!"

ME TOO!!!!
Posted By: BaseballAnnie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/20/07 09:32 AM
Jeff, are you seeing a therapist of some sort? On anti-depressants?

It does not compromise your strength and honor to ask for help in getting through your struggles.

peace,
BA
Posted By: Lissie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/20/07 11:21 AM
Quote:
That is how I feel. My life has been ripped from me and it hurts.


Jeff.

HUGS, I wish they were real for you.

You are so respected and cared for here.

I am sorry for the hurt, I am sorry for the pain.

I don't understand it as much as you do.

Annie brings up a good point.

Maybe you can talk to someone? A therapist? I know it is not the answer to everything but it could help.

I was stubborn, and didn't want to go, but I did and it helped.

Jeff , you are wonderful don't ever forget it.
Posted By: TNP Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/20/07 11:55 AM
Hi Jeff,

Don't know if you got to read this thread it has an interesting article posted in it.

Go well.
Posted By: WCW Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/20/07 05:26 PM
Jeff, it's okay to hurt and feel ripped apart. You have to process those feelings to put them away. What you should not do is wallow around in them until you get bitter and hard against the world. Find a way up and out. Prescription drugs or therapy might be the answer. OTC drugs or herbs might help. Mostly IMO you need to do something other than go to work and go to your apartment. Interact with people in the real world. Send a smile to the checkout people, hold the door for someone at the grocery store, say good job to the ref at the kids games. Start small like that if you are afraid of being hurt again. There are many good people that would be happy to have you send a smile their way and you don't even know them.

What's the status of getting your place back?
Posted By: faithisbelieving Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/21/07 02:22 PM
Jeff..strength and honor. FIB
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/21/07 02:39 PM
I am still climbing the mountain but the progress is slow - hacking though some dense undergrowth. But I will get there.

Yes, I hurt and I am stuck. But the realization that it is OKAY to allow myself to hurt and allow myself to lick my wounds is so uplifting. It is okay to accept that I got screwed big time and it is okay to be pissed. And it is okay to accept it and let it go.

I can't change anything I cannot change.

I don't feel depressed - just retreating to the safety of my cave.

For now. I will come out someday - but for now this is okay.

Medication? No I am not on any. I know this is wrong but I have it stuck in my head that meds are changing one problem for another. I know that is not true since I read many good things about meds here.

IC? Yes, been there. Trouble is there is little he can do other than listen. I am really not depressed in the clinical sense and I am functioning quite well actually. I know what the problem is - and how to fix it. Doing it is the problem.

I am just stuck in the underbrush. But my knife is sharp and my compass true and I am determined to hack through it.

My current stitch: My lawyer is working the final papers. We should sign next month. I will buy her out and I will get my house back. She will have 60 days to get out. I was uncertain if this were best but now I am. I am so looking forward to it. I will keep my apartment for about four months while I fix up my house the way I want it, fill it for new memories. I will figure out how to pay for all this later.

Thanks all for checking in.

Strength and Honor.
Posted By: BaseballAnnie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/21/07 04:10 PM
What do you do other than work and lick your wounds?

Anything for anyone besides yourself?

You're one of the Handy Dudes, right?

Thought about taking those tools of yours and going and doing some repairs in a low income neighborhood?

Putting in a wheelchair ramp on the front of a disabled person's house?

Fixing fence at a poor divorced woman's horse farm?
Posted By: TNP Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/22/07 11:29 AM
Originally Posted By: BaseballAnnie


Fixing fence at a poor divorced woman's horse farm?


Now where does this divorcee live and how many acres is the farm?
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/25/07 02:44 PM
Yea Paul. Annie is just pulling our leg. Imagine some beautiful, independent, intelligent, sexy, head-strong 40-something woman, all alone, on a big farm with fences needing fixing so the horses and dogs don't roam off, divorced, maybe a bit lonely and horn..... Na, Shangri-La does not exist. \:\(

--------
Been a real good week for me. Been very productive at work and got oooo so many compliments - both business related and personal. A few from some ladies

I also been out and about (even though the South is still above 100 deg almost each day) and my interactions with others have been so positive.

But hell, I deserve this. I have been positive and got equal in return.

Power slept last night but I was pulled from my sleep at 1:15 by a line of thunderstorms. Did we need the rain! I listened to it for an hour - lighting, thunder and the downpour. It was so primal - one of those things in life that reminds you of a higher power; a power unchanged since time began.

Reminded me of how insignificant my problems are.

I know it is difficult to put together, but my journey contains a mountain to climb and a river to run at the same time. May not be possible in real life but so what. It works for me. There must be a river running uphill somewhere - I know, since I am on it.

Some days I run the rapids - others I chop through the brush while carrying the boat.

I had some rough water lately and some stiff underbrush to work through but I am in a good place this week. A restful stop with a decent view. Hope it continues.

I still find these boards of comfort but the message I came here for I never found. The title is Divorce Busting - that I did not find. But I have found so many wonderful people here, people trying so hard to do the right things in life, no quitters in sight.

That has lifted me up these past 19 months (15 on the BB). I wish I could communicate with more folks - newcomers is full I see.

But I may post a bit less as I refocus on GAL and getting the divorce done. I send my markup of my papers to my lawyer Monday - should be quick after that.

That is my Christmas present to myself - a new life, new people and perhaps new love in my life. A new man, and a strong father and role model for my kids.

Shangri-La does exist: we cannot find it - it is up to us to build it.

Strength and Honor.

Posted By: WCW Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/25/07 06:49 PM
Who is this guy that made this post? certainly not the Jeff that has no GAL and doesn't mingle in reality of people!
jeesh Jeff, I've been telling you for HOW LONG to get out? Guess it took meaner words than I found to say, but at least it got the task done.

Before you quit posting all together, I'd like more of your opinion please. You tell me that my H will not change, I take that to mean he will always be how he is now. That confuses me. He changed from the guy I married to the guy he is now, so can't he change again? Have you changed Jeff? aren't you a better man/H/dad than one or two or three years ago? And, what about all the 'changes' of all the people on these forums of this BB? are they real changes? or is the cake the same with a different frosting?
Posted By: BaseballAnnie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/25/07 11:44 PM
OMG! You're back! I love it!

And I do not pull legs. But otherwise, you described me perfectly...thanks.

And I do have a section of fence that needs fixing, no kidding.

But, as has been the case for well over a year now, I suppose I am left to self-help.

Pool boyz and Handy dudes are hard to come by.

<sigh>

Welcome back!
besos,
BA
Posted By: I_Still_Love_Him Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/26/07 12:02 AM
Quote:
Been a real good week for me. Been very productive at work and got oooo so many compliments - both business related and personal. A few from some ladies

You must be exuding a positive attitude. You get what you give and I'm happy you're finally getting out.

Quote:
I still find these boards of comfort but the message I came here for I never found. The title is Divorce Busting - that I did not find. But I have found so many wonderful people here, people trying so hard to do the right things in life, no quitters in sight.
That has lifted me up these past 19 months (15 on the BB).

Couldn't agree with you more.

Quote:
That is my Christmas present to myself - a new life, new people and perhaps new love in my life. A new man, and a strong father and role model for my kids.


What a great Christmas present it is!
Posted By: Lissie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/26/07 01:57 AM
Quote:
Yea Paul. Annie is just pulling our leg. Imagine some beautiful, independent, intelligent, sexy, head-strong 40-something woman, all alone, on a big farm with fences needing fixing so the horses and dogs don't roam off, divorced, maybe a bit lonely and horn..... Na, Shangri-La does not exist.


(sigh)is that sassy Jeff?

yup, sweet like ice cream
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/26/07 03:05 PM
Quote:
Before you quit posting all together, I'd like more of your opinion please. You tell me that my H will not change, I take that to mean he will always be how he is now. That confuses me. He changed from the guy I married to the guy he is now, so can't he change again? Have you changed Jeff? aren't you a better man/H/dad than one or two or three years ago? And, what about all the 'changes' of all the people on these forums of this BB? are they real changes? or is the cake the same with a different frosting?

I do not think I will quit posting any time soon. Just less. I cut and pasted my response on your thread as well.

First, did H really change since you married or did your viewpoint change? Things we overlook during the early days now become apparent. Early we see only positives. Later we see other things, things that were always there but that we turned a blind eye to. I could also say my former W changed, but she really is the same as when I married her. Her focus is just different and the negatives I overlooked that are now directing her are very apparent to me.

People can change - if you read Christian history you see Saul of Tarsus change into Paul on the road to Damascus.

But I perfer this quote: "People don't change their minds, they change the direction they are going."

I don't think people fundamentally change, they just adjust as they learn. Unfortunately most (and I do mean most) never learn. They see no problems within - all their misfortune is without, in others or the environment. Their world will be better when the outside environment changes. Of course no one can control their outside so they remain stuck. These folks never change direction - they see no need to.

Does this apply to your H? Honestly (and I mean honestly) I don't know. I do know it did apply to me and if I may be so bold - it applied to many here on this BB before they came here.

You see, I got the bomb. The bomb was a suprise. I did not see it coming. I did not realize she was building it. I did not realize that I was assisting her build it.

Dah! How could I have been so stupid?

Easy. And I saw no reason to change my direction before the explosion.

That was the kick in the butt I needed to change my direction. I am the same guy - I even retook the personality test - yep, still the same. I continue to do the same stupid things. But the big difference is that I am AWARE. So now I try to think before I act or speak. Even one blunder avoided means one less hurt dished out to another. I make an effort to be more compassionate. I make an effort to spend more focus on my kids.

I also learned recently that you don't have to replace behavior "A" with "B". That is difficult b/c we are then trying to change our personalities. If "A" is bad then all you need to do is to STOP DOING IT. Ceasing to be a jerk does not require learning a new behavior. Behavior "B" will develop in time once "A" is purged.

I am aware and I choose to make the effort. If you are not aware then you will not make the effort.

Yes, same cake, different frosting. But the frosting is the best part after all; we never lick the batter - only the frosting.

If your H is to change WCW, he will need to become aware he should change his direction. I am not suggesting you drop a bomb. Bombs destroy - they do not heal. He can only achieve that awareness within himself. Will he achieve it? Again I honestly do not know. And don't discount that he may be changing - when we change we have to change 100% for the better in order to get 10% of the credit.

People will do something - including changing their behavior - only if they can conclude that doing so is in their own best interests as defined by their own values.

All you can influence is his environment. Fill it with love and support. Show that your M is in his best interest to keep and nuture. That you have done and continue to do. But his head is still not on straight - he does not see what is around him. I hope some day he will. I hope he sees it before it is too late - as it was too late for me when former W ran out of love.
Posted By: BaseballAnnie Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/26/07 05:45 PM
I always lick the batter.

Pitcher and catcher too, if they're cute...
Posted By: RMG77739 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/26/07 06:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Jeff223
I hope he sees it before it is too late - as it was too late for me when former W ran out of love.


Jeff223,

I am sorry but I do not see things that way. My W did NOT "run out of love." She simply looked around and realized she had gotten everything she perceived she could from me. Then, she bailed.

IF my W EVER really loved me, she would have openly discussed her feelings, gone to counseling and worked on the M. In the end, she only really loved herself.

It may be very similar in your case..........

RMG
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/26/07 07:15 PM
Quote:
IF my W EVER really loved me, she would have openly discussed her feelings, gone to counseling and worked on the M. In the end, she only really loved herself.

It may be very similar in your case..........


WOW, I can relate to that. My former W dropped the bomb and walked away with that smug look and confident it was all my fault. Where was our love, her commitment?

But what does it matter their motives? If she lost her love or she just used me, if she blames me and not herself, if she loves only herself, so what? That is her problem, not mine. I cannot control that so why suffer.

I do believe that if I would have extracted my head from my anal cavity sooner it may have made a difference. But like you state so well, if we were used and they are that self centered it may not have made any difference at all.

And to sleep even better: if we were used and they are that self centered they did us a favor walking away.

Thanks for the post.
Posted By: RMG77739 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/26/07 07:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Jeff223
Quote:
IF my W EVER really loved me, she would have openly discussed her feelings, gone to counseling and worked on the M. In the end, she only really loved herself.

It may be very similar in your case..........


WOW, I can relate to that. My former W dropped the bomb and walked away with that smug look and confident it was all my fault. Where was our love, her commitment?

But what does it matter their motives? If she lost her love or she just used me, if she blames me and not herself, if she loves only herself, so what? That is her problem, not mine. I cannot control that so why suffer.

I do believe that if I would have extracted my head from my anal cavity sooner it may have made a difference. But like you state so well, if we were used and they are that self centered it may not have made any difference at all.

And to sleep even better: if we were used and they are that self centered they did us a favor walking away.

Thanks for the post.


Jeff,

Her love and commitment was right there with my ex-W's..... My WAW went on to spew all sorts of sh!t.... She questioned if we were "really" married..... She said, "Who are you married to? The first person you have sex with?" She went on to pose a bunch of idiotic questions... The FUNNY thing is when they have to ACCEPT this from the next H. Can the next H just pull the same sh!t? Can he just walk away? I know they would be pissed off, hurt and complain about how "evil" men are... \:\) Their families would be up in arms instead a giggling about how "bad" exW was. It will be TOTALLY different when they are being defecated upon....

My exW said so many contradictory things.... She said it was long over.... She made her decision the early Summer... Yet, she said it would have been different if I had done things differently in September. WTF?

She will look back and see me for the man I really am - a loving, caring, smart, hard working, compassionate and flawed man with a heart of gold who loved her more than anything on this Earth. I was in a SERIOUS rut before. I am back to being myself finally!

The interesting thing is I have met over a dozen ladies since my D. They all have eventually in some form or another said, “You are the type of the guy most women want to be with. What is wrong with your ex-wife?” I just smile. A few ladies have said it is her loss and some lucky woman's gain... How do you like that?

RMG
Posted By: RMG77739 Re: Moving Forward - slow but sure - 08/26/07 08:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Jeff223
And to sleep even better: if we were used and they are that self centered they did us a favor walking away.


Jeff,

I wanted to comment on this alone.

It is true I will sleep well knowing I did everything I could once she made me aware of the issues. She chose to just walk away. That will weigh heavily upon her someday. In the back of her mind, I am sure she will wonder if she will finally be on the receiving end.

She will eventually have to deal with breaking her marriage vows to God, breaking her marriage vows to me, committing adultery and hurting someone she allegedly loved.

If I ever get married again, I will be able to stand at that altar knowing I kept my vows last time. When she does it again, if she has not already, she will stand there haunted by the ghosts of what she did and how she disobeyed God's laws.........


RMG
Posted By: frank_D Loss of compassion means loss of self - 08/28/07 06:03 AM
In FIB's thread you wrote:

Originally Posted By: Jeff223

Shoot for Maximus. But if you only see compassion in his character you are only seeing a very small part of who he is. Remember the leadership, sense of purpose, focus, self-confidence, and assertiveness that served him well and permitted him to achieve his goals in the end. Compassion yes, but he was not afraid to use the sword when needed; a man with clear non-negotiable unalterable terms.


"leadership, sense of purpose, focus, self-confidence, and assertiveness" do not EXCLUDE compassion, they ENHANCE it. Compassion is not 'recklessness'. It's being closer to 'Human' than it is to 'animal'. It is not a weakness, it's a strength.

Maybe you've heard this quote:
Quote:
The most Impressive Use of Power, is Restraint


Restraint is born of compassion. Compassion is an exercise of the power of our 'humanity'. When we lose that we aren't even a warrior any more. Just an emotionless machine.

Jeff, your last few posts to FIB, and in response to my suggestions of showing some compassion while maintaining boundaries, seem to be against being compassionate and in favor of the 'sword', tough love, kick her a$$.

It has been puzzling me until I took the time to read your threads and I saw that this is the way you've been handling your relationship with your wife. It wasn't that way in the beginning, you validated, and tried to be supportive but as she went through her emotional cycles you withdrew and did more than detach. You unplugged completely and, to all appearances, you lost any compassion for her.

You're angry. It shows in your more recent posts.

It's hard, I know, to be able to be the 'supportive husband' one day, and then get the venom the next day. But if you read Deida, "The Way of The Superior Man", you'll see that it's all about the way women process their lives through their emotions, while men process through our logical view of life. As such, women NEED us to remain stable WHILE they spew their emotional garbage.

They need to know that no matter what they say or do emotionally, we can still be there for them.

However, when it's gotten to the point where we're here at the DB board, and our marriage is a train wreck, everything is way off balance. THEY have a lot to SPEW, and We have very few chances to be compassionate and supportive. Most of the time we are relegated to detachment and validation.

But, as the anger is vented, SOME will PRESENT us with opportunities to reconnect with them emotionally, to provide them with the support they need, even if for a brief moment. As my counselor told me, eventually those positive moments start to displace the negative memories.

It can happen. It takes time.

I've read your most recent thread. I think the door is not closed and there is a POSSIBILITY for healing. But only if you choose to, and only if you can see how she has progressed in her view of you, and where there were opportunities to make small inroads into healing.

I've selected some specific items in your posts over the past year that if I had been reading your thread, I would have pointed out as opportunities to see her pain and be supportive.

And that's really what it's all about. Them. We know that. It's about their pain, their hopelessness. They tell us that all the time. When WE fail to SEE that, to have enough compassion to DO something when the timing is right, then they will continue to see US as the problem.

That is so hard to do, because we're being spewed at all the time. But it can be done with a balance of 'detachment' and 'compassion'. It's what I did, it's what FIB is doing.
Jeff, I CARE. I have nothing but compassion for you and your wife. I am not here to judge you in any way. I have some observations to share and nothing else.

Sometimes, when we can see a history of our journey laid out in front of us it can give us some insight into what we should do next. So here goes...
Quote:
Everything I do right now is viewed as controlling; everything. All my positive improvements have been dismissed as not really happening. All my reaching out to her or doing her a favor just means I am still the same old controlling jerk I always was. In fact, she has lived a life where all important decisions were made for her – she could not do them herself. Now, for perhaps the first time in her life – she is getting the D she wants – she and only she will control this situation. How sad – she is hurting herself, our kids, and me in this process to “find” and assert herself. Even going to a lawyer to draft an agreement – she could not do it herself as I predicted.

Translation: I let you take care of everything and you became unreliable. Now I'm scared because I LET YOU control everything.

After she tearfully tells you she needs a divorce, you observe she is a mess. you say
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My whole conversation with her, although R oriented, was so different for me. It was as though I was not talking to WAW. It is hard to explain. She pushed so many buttons yet I became only slightly angry – not anywhere like I use to. I felt so sorry for her and I felt so sorry for us and my family. But the pain was minimal – that is good. She was a total mess. I only felt sorrow and pity for her – not the anger, frustration, self-pity, and depression – and that is all very good.

another time...
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In case you all get too wrapped up in this alien thing – yes my WAW is an alien but I never saw her so down as I saw her yesterday. As I said to John, she has no choice but to see this through. I really don’t understand that fully but it is fact. She cried – and I felt for her deeply but somehow I could not embrace the alien Devil Girl that has her by the throat. Or is it the Devil himself? But I got a quick look at the girl I fell in love with – that made it hard. I so miss her.
The 'girl I fell in love with' was there. Fear prevented you from at least hugging her.

Several people respond to you for doing so well 'detaching'. You weren't 'lovingly detached'. It was emotional disconnect. You shut down to protect yourself.
Quote:
My W did call last night to speak to the kids. She was down visiting her mom who has cancer and had just returned. For the past few months she has been brief to me and usually hangs up after talking to the kids. Yesterday she asked S8 to put me on. We talked 20 minutes about her mom. While visiting, her mom had to be taken to the ER – reaction to the chemo treatments they think. It freaked my W out. Says her mom is not doing at all well and they were told tumor was much bigger than first thought. Her mom has basically given up – I found that so surprising b/c her mom is so strong. I felt so helpless; all I could do is listen. W sounded like the person I married – not the alien. It was nice to hear my W again. But she sounded so alone. There was a long pause at the end – I told her to take care of herself – she started to cry and said good night.
She is alone. All you could do was listen. What do you think was holding you back from giving her some unconditional love and support? How do you think she may have felt after being met with silence by the person who says he loves her?

Quote:
The call sort of confirms for me that my detachment is real – I did not feel the emotions I would have felt just a few months ago. I still love her but all I really felt was sorrow for her. I sensed she needed someone to hold her so badly but I don’t believe that I can be that person any longer. The choice is hers to exclude me from her life. How senseless this all is.
She just chose to INCLUDE you in her life, and she shared her fears and sorrows with you. Again, what held you back?

A few days later, you send her the 'You are free to go' Letter.
Quote:
I prefer that our marriage work - I see many opportunities and actions we can take. However, I also see that you truly feel divorce is the only possible route you can take. You're right, our marriage is impossible.

So be it - I won't stand in your way - you are free to go.

It is in our mutual best interests to work together as closely as possible - for financial and time considerations. Additionally, our cooperation will create a strong foundation for us to build upon as we focus on being effective and equal co-parents.

Besides the arrogant tone of this note, I wonder about the timing. She is in a bad place with her mother at this point. Why was this necessary at this time?

Quote:
Since my “you are free to go” email W has been very chatty and nice. She thanked me in two separate emails for letting her take the kids for the holiday weekend to see her folks. Her folks were thrilled and so were the kids. MIL is doing better. W spent a long time on the phone one evening talking about MIL. I just listened. Frankly, I really don’t want to talk to her so I have become a good listener.


Quote:
Tuesday morning she sent a short email saying she got back okay. But that night she sent me a longer email about her mom and the kids. At the end she just said “I guess I just wanted to say all that”. Interesting; I did not respond.
She invited you into her life. You did not respond.

Quote:
She is very, very emotional. So sad. She needs help but will not ask me for it. She is lonely. I really do not think she wants to do this but the alien still controls her. Maybe I am reading too much into her communications but she has been different since I “let her go”.
You know she needs help, and you seem to think she needs YOUR help. Because she will not 'ask' you for help, you will not reach out to her in any way, however small.

Quote:
How about me? I feel great. I am sad for her but I do not feel much else for her – I am only somewhat emotional about the situation, which is good (read my next post). I am detaching nicely. When she was gone I got a new lawyer and yet another chapter of Jeff’s saga will soon begin. More later.

Quote:
I think one reason why I am at 90% logical detachment is that I do feel a bit self-righteous at times. Demoting WAW in my mind eases my pain and produces a mindset of “I really don’t want her anyway”. The more uncaring she is the more I do not want to be around her. I am tired of being the doormat and the bad guy here. I hate what she has become and HER self-righteous attitude that it is my entire fault. I feel so defeated.
And you shouldn't be a doormat, or accept her view that you are the 'bad guy'.

Quote:
I was packed and ready to move. W calls today about my moving back and we yelled at each other for 15 minutes and hung up. She called back almost immediately and said she did not want any more calls like that – it constituted harassment.

I was about to hang up and go over there and show her the definition of harassment by moving right in and kicking her out of MY bed. But instead I paused.

I told myself it was about time to follow the advice I dish out to others. Jeff – detach; detach now. So I said, “You are absolutely correct, I think these calls are harassment and I refuse to do them any longer. Is there any chance that we can talk this out so I do not have to move back today?” Very long silence – I thought she hung up. Instead she said okay and we talked for over one hour. She was willing to discuss custody. It was DB in overdrive - I kept my cool, agreed with her, validated her feelings and shared my feelings and it worked. We had the best conversation in many months. At one point she even slipped and called me "honey".
You validated her feelings, shared your feelings and it works. She called you 'honey' because you were re-living a positive pattern. You DID IT! By seeing HER side of this you stopped being 'enemy' and became 'honey' for a brief moment. These are the moments you strive for.

Quote:
Before we were married, W relied on her father to do many things. My FIL is a great guy and is strong, steady, and secure. He helped her when the going was rough in college, he helped her find a house and move, he helped her buy furniture and her car, he helped do her taxes, he gave her advice. He was her security blanket.

Then I came along and I assumed that role; a role I could not hope to fill long term. I should have known better.

The first half of our marriage was good. But I was expected to lead: I decorated the house, I chose what we ate each night, I picked out her car, I did the finances and the taxes, I fixed the house; she wanted little input on decisions. What color should we paint a room? She would go pick out a dozen paint chips and asked me to decide, and then I was expected to paint.

As time went on I began to resent doing all the work. I desired a real partner – not being a “daddy” to my W.

Same here. My marriage was very similar EXCEPT FIL was not a good dad. I resented her BUT I ALSO DIDN'T REALIZE I HAD ENABLED HER TO BE THIS WAY.

And that I, as the stronger person in the relationship, could help her grow beyond those needs. It wasn't until she left that I learned this.

Quote:
I told her the D had to go through. We had no choice. I would love to try again but without trust it would never work. I told her this D is a gift – I have done more soul searching as a man then I ever have. I cut back my drinking. I have more one-on-one time with my kids then ever and the kids and I are eating it up. The pressure is off. Yes, we must get this D.

She cried. Then she asked the question many of us have heard before – why did I not change before, why did you wait to change until now; why, why, why? I said b/c I was stupid; so, so stupid. She cried. We went to bed separately.



Quote:
Great week at home; no really. W and I are getting along fine. We had two fights but once her emotions came out and I agreed and validated we had successful conversations about the kids, custody, and divorce. No, she is not at all reconsidering but she is warming up. I need to establish a cordial relationship for the sake of the kids. We talked past midnight for two nights now. She cannot forgive the past so we will divorce but I have let her go and agree with the path we are on.
Just because she says she isn't reconsidering doesn't mean she isn't. EVERYTHING we say and do is being processed by the WAS. The will continue to keep up their guard and insist there is 'no chance'.

Quote:
-----------------------------------
If your W came to you and said, "Jeff, let's work this out and stay married" would you be able to put your heart back into it?
-----------------------------------

Honestly? No. The feelings are just about gone. I am even a better Father now – I have that one-on-one time I did not have before. I am ready to move on and meet/sweep her off her feet someone who knows what a true R is all about – for better or worse – and will love me for who I am – faults and all. I know these women exist – I read their posts here every day.


You moved in to the house, and then moved out...
Quote:
Well – that did not last long. I am back in my apartment.

I am glad to be out. No, we were not throwing things at each other – just the opposite. We were like H and W again (except for the sleeping arrangements). We talked a bunch and she complimented me on many things I thought she had not or refused to notice. She said I was a wonderful dad now and the kids are thrilled. She also asked that I don’t judge her based on how she acted over the summer – the summer was so very hard on her. I was very calm and detached – I love her still but differently. The feelings are almost totally gone. I hate to say it but I imagine I have the same feelings that a WAS has.

Quote:
The most interesting part was that my W’s lawyer came to see my lawyer and W’s lawyer said nothing but great things about ME! Apparently my W told her lawyer of my changes and also how I am now a “top rate dad” and how much the kids like to be with me. Her lawyer asked W “so you are reconsidering the divorce?” W’s answer was a definite no. But her lawyer told my lawyer he felt the marriage could definitely be saved just from what W has said to him since she retained him.

The opportunities keep showing up.
Quote:
11/06

But I grew to hate her. Yes hate – for my anger that she let this happen and for her smugness and self-righteous attitude. Hate for my sadness and frustration that she would not try again and for her failure to accept my changes. Hate for my fear of my future and for my kids. Hate for my self-pity that it was my entire fault - how stupid I was. You have to experience those raw emotions and pure hate is as raw as they come.

Then forgiveness finally came – that took the longest. I came to a point of peace with myself. Only sorrow remains – sorrow for things that I cannot prevent: the loss of my best friend, the loss of my lover, the impacts to my children. The sorrow replaced the hate and the sorrow led me to remember the love. I finally realized that she was as hurt as I was - perhaps even more.

I now love her again and always will.
Now that you know she is as hurt as you were, what will you do to help her heal? She can't help herself. You're the only person right now who truly understands where she is at.

Quote:
I would try again if given the opportunity but she would need to change or it would not work. She would have to bury the past. After years of pain, that would be very, very hard for her to do. Realistically she will not give me that opportunity so it is time to move on. But then again, anything is possible.

Anything IS possible. You both CREATED the past. It would take you both to heal it.

You were always the leader. Do you think it is realistic to believe that SHE will come to you and say "hey, let's heal this and make it all work!" Or, is it more realistic to believe that if YOU start being kind, compassionate and aware of her feelings as you are now, that it is POSSIBLE that she will see that attractive person again?

Quote:
I saw my W at my son’s basketball game yesterday and I could not even bring myself to talk to her. She was cold. I just wanted her to wrap her arms around me and tell me everything was going to be all right; that Jeff would be coming home for Christmas. Instead, today my little girl told me she asked mommy if daddy was coming home – mommy’s answer was no.

You "wanted HER to wrap HER arms around you...". She isn't going to fix it. That isn't who she is. Anything that happens will happen because YOU manifest it. YOU are the one who creates this life around you. When YOU change everyone around you HAS to change.

Quote:
No card from her and the gifts were "from the kids". Interesting, she did call the day before Christmas Eve when I had the kids and she said she had more gifts for me and wanted to bring them over then. Why did she buy more? She came with her sister and she was all dressed up. Her sister hugged me real big and we started to talk. The kids went on about the great time they were having. I continued to talk to my SIL when W said "I guess it is time we should be going"; like she could not wait to leave. Even the kids said "you just got here".

She never looked at me once; no eye contact. Why did she come?
To see you. She missed you. Her christmas was being spent without you. Don't you think that feels wrong to her too?

Then you gave her a gift, with a card that said you were praying for the family to be together.
Her response was uncomfortable. You said:
Quote:
I do read that she still cares or why did she write it. She is hurt and she wants so badly to detach; for me to go away. Gifts and such remind her of the past. She may be questioning things and that is bad from her point of view. She also did not have the kids at Christmas – that must have hurt and of course it is my entire fault. So I feel sad for her.
and in your card, you reminded her that she was destroying the family because of her decisions.

Quote:
But I also read it as brutal, heartless and incredibly f'ing selfish of her. She doesn't have to wear the stupid things or even say "thanks" since she's clearly incapable of even civility right now...but to outright reject this small token of the past? What a joke....how incredibly rude and callous...and revealing of her character and mindset right now.


BaseballAnnie called you on it, as I would also. You reminded her of how her actions are hurting you and the family, and you let the little boy inside be hurt.

Some time later your mom gets sick. Your wife didn't come for a while. You said:
Quote:
I am alone here. W is interested but distant. She does not want to get close enough to comfort me in my time of need. I know her for 15 years, she is the mother of my two children, my mom called her the daughter she never had, my wife adored my mom. Now look.
So far, and maybe I'm wrong, but you've rejected her in all the previous months, she's been down and hurt and you've said nothing, kept your distance. You've pretty much shown her that she is unwelcome around you. And as you said "my wife adored my mom". Question: How badly do you think it hurt your wife to 'stay away' because she felt unwelcome?

Quote:
My W went to see her yesterday and again today. I was surprised but proud of her. I must admit my first reaction was “butt out of my business” and then I saw how hateful that was. She is trying to help as best she can and that is my first conclusion???? Wrong Jeff.


Quote:
My W finally visited mom Sunday. The first week W only came once for 15 minutes and as I wrote above mom was put out. But W did show Sunday, and then she came each day since. She has talked to the doctors and is now playing the role of concerned daughter-in-law. If W learns something she lets me know.

Her behavior is not affecting me in the least and I am not reading anything into it. I am glad she is involved – I think my mom appreciates it and I do too.
She reached out again.

A few days later you did a long post reinforcing your so called 'detachment' and justifying 'giving up'. Rather than quote it, I'll link to it here Jeffs sad post


Quote:
W stayed away this week but she said she was sick. She did call me several times and told me to 'send her love' to mom. Mom is still very upset that W is not visiting.

So, the drama continues.
W made an effort but when she gets sick you're dismissive. Why is that?

Because you aren't detached. You're still angry:
Quote:
Same with W; hearing that you are nothing but worthless crud and a controlling, manipulative jerk that deserves nothing but her hate has also taken its toll. I really cannot take it any longer either. I so wish I never have to see her or talk to her again. Why did she not call me those things early on with the objective of trying to fix us? No, she quit – then kick the guy while she is going out the door.


Quote:
My 12 year wedding anniversary was last week as well. No acknowledgement of the day. I have known W for almost 1/3 of my life – and no acknowledgement.
I'm not sure if you sent her something to 'ackgnowledge' in this post. However, it's another example of you waiting for her to take action. Yet YOU are the leader in this relationship.

On my 15 year anniversary my W ave me nothing. I gave my W a hand written card thanking her for our children and for the many good times we had. I wished her happiness in her life. She thanked me, cried, and I held her.

You wrote this in regards to a time your W sat next to you and D6 tried to make you hold hands. W 'pulled away' from you.
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ISLH - I will try not to be defensive but if someone chooses to act like a bit*h, ignore you on purpose, and try to lure you into argument (which she tried to do at one point) then I call that rude, among other terms.

What I tried to say is that it did not affect me; or, to be very honest, not even close to as much as it would have just months ago. Why? B/c I see her for what she is.

There comes a time when we need to stop apologizing for them. If they cannot treat us decently, sit somewhere else, not next to me. I see too many wonderful people here blame themselves or try to even defend the crass behaviors of their former partners, when in fact they are responsible for how they act, not us.
You're right, she is responsible for how she acts. And you are responsible for being an authority figure, set boundaries, and call her on her behaviors. She is testing you to see if you WILL do this.

Later you said:
Quote:
As ford points out, if we see the other person for who they really are, and not through the LBS foggy lense, then we can feel correctly. If someone I don't know too well does me wrong, that crosses a boundary, and I react as needed. Why should I feel or act any differently towards my xW? Likewise, treat me well and I will treat you likewise. This too applies to xW.

Because, the person you DON'T KNOW who treats you badly deserves a different reaction than the person who is your childrens mother. The LBS 'lense' doesn't need to be 'foggy'. It can be CLEAR and you can react to her with love and compassion when setting boundaries.

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She has problems with eye contact and is very uneasy around me - tells me she is doubting her course but she cannot change it. She is still trying to tell herself her feelings are gone. That is okay. We sat together at my son's ballgame and I was very upbeat and asked her about her life. She went on and on like old times. Never really asked about me - her focus is on her. That is also okay. At one point I moved to sit with my son (he was running the scoreboard since his hand is still in a cast) and she followed there.
How can you be so CLEAR in your understanding of her and still not get it? "She is still trying to tell herself her feelings are gone". Did you say that because you WISH it were true or because you intuitively KNOW it is true?

I believe it IS true. The feelings are NOT gone.

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She still desires a D, she has made that clear. But she does not have the fortitude to draft up the agreements. She wants to run away. She just wants me to go away. Or is it that she really does not want the D deep down? I do not believe so; I cannot read her mind so there is doubt but her actions do not support a change in her course. She *needs* the D – she just does not want to deal with the process (even though she has a lawyer). That hurts me.

So I have decided to *push* the legal D. It is what she wants, based on ALL indications and her actions; not what I THINK she MAY be feeling as she deals with her pain and MLC elements. I am still trying to affect the emotional divorce; that is different from the legal one. All I know is to support her now as best I can. Maybe the draft settlement papers will affect her. And she will have to negotiate and process the papers so that may affect her. But I really doubt it. False hope is a poison that I do not want to take again.

I still believe that I would consider trying again if she makes any indication she is willing. But trying again becomes less attractive to me as time passes.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you haven't been 'trying', you've been waiting for her to try. It seems as though you will only accept her coming to you and saying "I was wrong, let's make it work".

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She has been more open lately: telling me about her job when we sat together at the ballgame, thanking me twice for doing the taxes, and now the settlement. Good stuff, but no expectations on my part. It hurts less for me to believe she is totally detached herself rather than looking at this as 'baby steps'.


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One interesting thing is that she gained weight. She had really slimmed down when she dropped the bomb but now she has gained it back and more (I had not seen her in a month). I read where ISLH's H gained weight and she took it as a positive sign that his life was in the toilet and that he may be inching home. I took my stbx weight gain the same way: her new rosy life is apparently not so rosy after all. And I smiled, shame on me.



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So, time to build that *new* me and treat all this as the opportunity to grow that I did not have in my M. A life based on strength and honor.
Maximus spoke of 'Strength and Honor' when going into battle. When fighting as a Gladiator in the arena.

When he was with his Wife, he spoke of love and compassion. To protect and to cherish his family. That, is what a Warrior does. Find your compassion for your wife. See her pain and be present with her when the opportunities come up.
Posted By: WCW Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 08/28/07 12:34 PM
Hey Jeff, came to say thanks for your thoughts and I responded at my place.
Frank_D has a lot of good points. Kinda tough to come in after this long and redo the last year but moving forward was your thread title right? Forward can still be together. You might have lost your hope, but keep your heart open.
Jeff, Frank has given you an incredible gift here.

I cannot possibly add anything to it, other than to say this.

God expects us to reconcile. Not necessarily reconcilliation of our marriages, because that is not always possible, but to work toward reconcilliation and healing of the relationship, working toward restoration of friendship, trust, respect for one another.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation" (2 Corinthians 5:17-19).

So even if you can't save your marriage at this point, think about these things that Frank has said, with the desire toward reconcilliation with your wife. Not only for the two of you, but most especially for the benefit of your children.

peace,
BA
Posted By: Jeff223 Returning to my journey - 08/28/07 01:39 PM
You and I watched different movies.

Thanks for trying to help.
Posted By: frank_D Re: Returning to my journey - 08/28/07 07:45 PM
Annie did a better job of making my point than I did. Thanks Annie.

We watched the same movie. We have a different definition of 'compassion' and 'honor'. With Maximus, training his fellow gladiators was an act of COMPASSION. He could have let them fend for themselves and die one by one. No skin off his teeth. he would have been ok.

In some middle eastern countries, fathers and brothers may kill their daughters/sisters if they feel that they have lost their 'honor' because of their actions.

To me, 'honor' means to step beyond my hurt, hate, anger and need to punish and instead be christ-like and compassionate while still maintaining boundaries. That is 'honorable'.

So, 'honor' comes in many flavors.
What does 'honor' mean to you?

It doesn't matter to me if you and your W are together. It matters to me that you and your W are not continuing to hurt each other. Your kids deserve better.

I'm sorry I didn't follow your journey, I feel like I'm adding too little, too late. I hope that's not true.
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 08/28/07 11:52 PM
Thanks again frank.

We can discuss the movie at length and that would be fun. There are several points of spirited debate I would really enjoy.

I welcomed your post. Your intentions were pure, I know that, but it hurt more than you will ever know. Point after point of my failure. But it is honest and it gives me the opportunity to write what I write below. Plus I pull out my 2x4 so I welcome same in return.

Except BBAnnie, her's hurts too much

You do make very valid points and I agree with them. I also appreciate you taking the time to read my stuff. You went way back, must have been fun

Everyone here most likely will disagree with what I am about to say, but I am in a very good place right now b/c I have accepted that my M is over. I have shut this off. I cannot do any more. I just do not have the energy to try to save this any longer.

I no longer care.

Someone once posted that when it is over you will know it. I know it. And as bad as it sounds, I feel wonderful about it.

Quote:
You're angry. It shows in your more recent posts.

I am DONE. I try to state what I feel in a factual way.

Quote:
You unplugged completely and, to all appearances, you lost any compassion for her.

True.

I don't care about her any longer. She destroyed my life, my identity as a man, she destroyed my family and scarred my children for life. I will not let her hurt me any longer. I cannot. I no longer wish to see her or to talk to her. I will have little or nothing to do with her except in the context of the kids. And the fact is that she has already made it clear she does not want my help there and by law she has the final say in all decisions (thanks to the law, fathers are not equal parents).

Don't take that to mean I will not be the best father I can be. I will learn to work with her and work well. Just as I learn to deal with people at work who are not concerned with my best interests, only their own.

Quote:
It was emotional disconnect. You shut down to protect yourself.

True again. That is what I have done. That is all I can do given where I am. I am not strong enough to do anything else.

For the first time in 18 months I feel secure. I feel safe, as though a load is gone. Yes, the "books" say I am just in denial, or kidding myself, or suppressing my emotions to the point of harm. I realize that and accept it.

I choose to believe that this is a valid conclusion and a valid decision. I choose not to be hurt any longer. I choose not to "STAND" (please don't get me going on THAT word) and I feel at peace with that decision.

Doing anything else means TO ME that I do not have the self-esteem to STAND for me.

Want to play Jeopardy? Psychological disorders for $100? The tendency to invite and enjoy misery or abuse in order to feel rightous, pitied by yourself or others, or admired for forbearance. The question is: What is masochism?

I will not try and try again. I will not wait any longer. I must move on - the clock is ticking.

I am also sure I have learned valuable lessons that I will use in my future relationships and with my kids. I am a better man. And I accept that I am also a failure. Your lenghty post frank clearly points out how I fuk'ed up again and again, how I did not "get it". I will try to use my journey for growth.

I am glad your stitch ended up differently. I hope I am the only failure here. Your stitch is more like mine than even FIB's - similar personality context, same addictions (work, booze, woman type), and similar problems. I hope I can say this right, your W had the OM - my W used the kids. The kids became her emotional crutch and I could not deal with it. You handled the OM so much better. That is b/c you are 10x the man I am.

------------
So I try to give my viewpoint when I see someone who has been at this for YEARS, someone who is clearly suffering with little reason for hope of saving their M, someone who is an outstanding person in all other respects.

I give that person an alternative to consider and "permission" to consider it. Even Michelle does that in her book.

I tell that person it is okay to end it. It is not wrong. In fact it may be the very best thing to do.

Other folks may say "don't quit". That is okay. Some "insist" - that is not okay (NOT you frank). I never imply that anyone must take my advice; I only say that it is okay to feel this way and it is okay to end it with your head held high.


Quote:
Jeff, I CARE. I have nothing but compassion for you and your wife. I am not here to judge you in any way.

I KNOW. Thank you.
Honey, I don't mean for my 2x4's to hurt, I never would intentionally hurt you. I've only tried to help.

BA
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 08/29/07 01:43 AM
Quote:
Honey, I don't mean for my 2x4's to hurt, I never would intentionally hurt you. I've only tried to help.

I KNOW. Thank you.
Posted By: Lissie Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 08/29/07 04:44 PM
Jeff. (sigh) you are so loved, and so much time and caring, goes into these posts to you.

I sorta know how you feel. Like I am done, let me be done.

I don't trust this person.

But I love the fact that Frank, and others say it is ok to be done, they just don't want us to be done, and angry.

Jeff, I'm proud of you.

Annie's 2x4's whip, but only with love.
Posted By: frank_D Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 08/29/07 06:22 PM
Quote:
Your lenghty post frank clearly points out how I fuk'ed up again and again, how I did not "get it". I will try to use my journey for growth.


No, it doesn't point that you f'ed up. It points out that there are opportunities that are subtle, and how to recognize them. And, that anger and fear STOP us from taking advantage of them.

That is not F'ing up. That is being frozen in hurt, anger, fear. When you're in that place, you're not allowing the WAS to even try to 'return'. I may be wrong, and Annie or Lissie can perhaps show more intuition that me on this, but I think your W still feels the love for you, but she can't get past the hurt either.

Lissie is right, it's ok to be done, just be a whole person again and learn to feel.

Your W didn't 'take away your identity as a man'. You had lost it on your own, just as I had. You can reclaim it whenever you're ready.

I also don't suggest that you 'take abuse' from her, or anyone. That doesn't mean you can't be more open and friendly with good boundaries.

I have something interesting to read that I could E-Mail you if you like. If you E-Mail me I'll reply with it.

Keep growing.
Posted By: CrumbMe Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 08/30/07 05:57 PM
Why isn't this taught in school?

You BB folks are incredible and awe inspiring...

Maybe one day I'll write to draw out some 2x4s.

I'd like to 'feel' again.
To Jeff...my friend....let me make one thing clear:

-we all make mistakes, me included..horrible at times. We would be human if we didn't
-history Jeff...we learn from history. Even you told me that we are NOT the same people we were when we married our W's
-you didn't 'f' up Jeff, you...I...we DID lose track...we lost our focus.....we misplaced some manstuff

I admire you Jeff. You've been strong. You've been there for me. You STILL are there for me. It was not easy FOR ME..as your friend..to read thru frank_d's...but...I must read...I MUST LEARN...I must learn thru OTHERS. Even on my own thread, I read everything 'my girls write'..Lissie and BBA. Yeah...they swing a mean bat, but, I would still cut BBA's lawn and white wash her fence ANYDAY.

4kids..on my thread..wrote about guilt and resentment...how that has NO place in a real man's life. I agree. Choose to learn...as history....same for me. I know where I screwed up. I also know where I didn't.

Strength and honor to my Alabama Maximus.

FIB
Posted By: Just_Me Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 08/31/07 06:53 PM
Jeff,

Frank gave a pretty amazing synopsis of your situation. It took a lot of reading. I read through all that and I see some of my own situation in it. I had periods of indifference or going dark because I thought it was the right thing to do. I had moments of too much pursuing. There were hints that things could work out, but nothing came to fruition. As I look at this summary I feel like those things you complain about now didn't necessarily have to be. She reached out to you on what sounded like multiple occasions and those were opportunities to be her friend. But those things are water under the bridge and you can only move forward.

I would like to say that you still cling to, "she did this to me and our family", and it hardens your heart against her. Did she do this? Yeah, she walked away, but can't you understand why and forgive it? She thought it was right. Anytime she might have regretted the decision it feels like you didn't lower your guard enough to let her voice it. Whether you have given up entirely or not, I still think forgiveness and accepting that this wasn't an act of cruelty are helpful in moving on. Someone will be even luckier to have you if you've learned forgiveness, understanding, and compassion. Despite our best efforts, a time comes when we are hurt by our SO/spouse and it pays to be able to walk in their shoes and discover the ability to forgive what you think is unforgivable.

This is getting long and I still don't know if I said anything. It's your life to do with what you want, but I would have to agree that there is still a chance for your relationship, if you're willing to be her friend and nothing else. It doesn't sound like you want to, but that summary just gave me the feeling that there is something there to strive towards. She isn't the devil because she gave up on the marriage....she just wasn't as strong as you wanted her to be and she had a difference of opinion from you about how to solve issues in the marriage that she felt were unsolvable.
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/01/07 02:04 PM
Thanks Just_Me,
I am not familar with your stitch but I admire your advice to others here. You have a good way of cutting to the main points. Thanks for stopping by.

Yes, frank_D made a good analysis and all I can say is thank you to him for taking the time.

You did hit in on the head - periods of indifference and periods of pursuit and periods of self-rightous where she should have come to me. I read all the books, tried to follow advice here, and tried my best, doing the things I thought were "correct".

It did no good. Nothing did. I disagree that she showed any signs of reaching out. You had to be there. If she tried to be nice it was manipulative to get her way. All she has done for the past 19 months is to move on without me and put me down.

Yes, she hurt and I tried to show compassion. But every time I let my guard down I got hammered.

I am stating facts. I can go through any stitch here and find "baby steps". In the end most turn out as wishful thinking by the author. We only get one side here - my words may have implied reaching out when reality was something else.

So I choose to turn off that switch. And I feel great. My interactions with others and with myself are so much better since I turned off this drama. The hurt is much less and she is finally leaving my thoughts.

On a different thread, frank_D wrote "I hardened my heart". That is very judgemental and negative. The fact is I have chosen to move on with my life without her in my life.

And that is okay. For some here "standing" is the only course, even if it means standing forever. "Stand" and you are strong - anything else is wrong and you are weak. They are "sick" after all. Someone even once said the OM is a "drug" for their illness and therefore that is okay.

Spare me. Please.

Don't believe that is a theme for some here? Just check the MLC forum. How judgemental, when we should be supporting each other.

I am here to tell everyone that "standing" is not the only course.

I do agree that forgiveness is the way to move on. That will come with time. I have given this same advice to others here many, many times.

But I do not have to be her friend to forgive her. Nor will I try be any longer. "We are in the business of raising children, nothing more." That is her quote, not mine.



Posted By: WCW Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/01/07 03:03 PM
Code:
"We are in the business of raising children, nothing more." That is her quote, not mine. 
I don't know your W's history but you and her married 'late' in life and very soon had 2 kids. You said the kids were her world and you were put and left on the outside. Other things you have said made me comment to you once that it almost seemed that W wanted kids, married you, had 2 kids and got what she wanted from you, and she no longer needed to be married and 'share HER' kids with you anymore.

We can all look back at what we wrote and see how we could have should have done things different but in real time we can only react to what is happening at the time. I would like a redo on many of my interactions with H but even with all the fancy technology that isn't an option. I think the biggest mistake you made was moving out per your W's request. Then the 2nd biggest mistake you made was moving back home for a weekend and then back to your apartment. I understand your reasons for this, and I don't say this now to cause pain...I've said it to you before. Again, if we could rewind and edit and get do overs there's a good chance none of us would be here.

Being done is your choice. Being bitter is also a choice. Don't be bitter. It's a bad taste!

Just my input from someone who has read your sitch from the start.

ps -
Quote:
In the end most turn out as wishful thinking by the author.
OUCH. But I agree. I know that my frame of mind or PMA makes a big difference in how my posts come across or are perceived by a reader. It's so hard to capture the real feeling of each 24 day. But hey! you know me...I hope. Now I hope that my wishful thinking helps me keep going. Thank you for more insight.
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/01/07 05:42 PM
Quote:
it almost seemed that W wanted kids, married you, had 2 kids and got what she wanted from you, and she no longer needed to be married and 'share HER' kids with you anymore.

You know of all the things you ever said to me that caused me to think the most. I believe you are close to correct but I cannot accept it b/c it would make forgiveness impossible.

Quote:
Being done is your choice. Being bitter is also a choice. Don't be bitter. It's a bad taste!

Right on again. I will try.

BTW, my statement that it is okay not to stand any longer does not imply that I do not support folks who do choose to stand. What I am against is when "standing" is presented as the only acceptable option. I admire those who stand, and looking back I would recommend that working on the M is the best course during the first year or so. After that, I would say a hard look is in order. Then, it is still okay to give it more time and effort. Just realize what you are up against.
Posted By: frank_D Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/01/07 06:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Jeff223
On a different thread, frank_D wrote "I hardened my heart". That is very judgemental and negative. The fact is I have chosen to move on with my life without her in my life.
Your posts seem to say that your heart was hardened towards her. Others observed the same thing. It isn't 'judgemental', it's an observation. The fact that you 'feel judged' is often an indicator that there is some feeling inside you that you HAVE hardened your heart and you don't feel 'good' about it.

Quote:
And that is okay. For some here "standing" is the only course, even if it means standing forever. "Stand" and you are strong - anything else is wrong and you are weak. They are "sick" after all. Someone even once said the OM is a "drug" for their illness and therefore that is okay.
I don't believe in standing 'forever'. I also don't think that OM is 'ok' ever. However, OM IS a drug because of the endorphin high people get during the 'in love' phase and there isn't anything you can do to change that until it ends on its own.

Quote:
Spare me. Please.

Don't believe that is a theme for some here? Just check the MLC forum. How judgemental, when we should be supporting each other.
Now who is being angry, bitter, judgemental?

You're hurt, and that's the only thing I want to say.

As WCW says: "Being done is your choice. Being bitter is also a choice. Don't be bitter. It's a bad taste!"

Quote:
But I do not have to be her friend to forgive her. Nor will I try be any longer. "We are in the business of raising children, nothing more." That is her quote, not mine.


No you don't. You can be her enemy forever. Are you going to let her continue to determine how you and she will interact or are you going to decide to change it? Don't you think that some of her interaction with you, some of her negativity towards you is HER reflecting back to YOU how YOU act around her?

I read your sitch several times. If you read Deida and understand him you'd see that she flip flops between 'nice' and 'cold' because she is an emotionally confused woman. Deida says that YOU need to stay consistent in your response but you don't. You let her drive your feelings. so she sees you as 'the same'.

If you read your sitch, EVERY TIME you've set boundaries, been a rock, been consistent, she has backed down or softened up. Every time.

Stay angry if you like, have a good time the next 10-20 years when you see her at kids events. It's really your choice.
Posted By: Jen_Jam Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/01/07 06:47 PM
Jeff - just a quick post, I have nothing useful to add for you, I'm sorry. I'm out of words.

Just wanted to say I'm thinking of you and hope that you will find peace within yourself, and that your STBXW will find the same.
Jeff,

I agree with so much of what frank_d says and ultimately if you choose not to reconcile your M, that is your choice. I would hope however that you reconcile with the mother of your kids.

I'm also wondering whether your choosing to not stand is really what you believe to be the right thing for you or is it because you still feel like a victim and blame her for how you feel. If you are truly happy with YOU right now and can't see yourself being happy with your W, then great, BE HAPPY. That is all we want.

Some people won't stand at all, some stand for a short time, some stand for one year, some longer and yes some I would also say stand because they don't know how to move on. Whatever one chooses, is up to them but ultimately our goal is to be happy with who we are.

Always following along and wishing you all good things you deserve.

Hugs,
ISLH
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/01/07 09:40 PM
Thanks again frank but let us just conclude this conversation. I am in a good place right now and I want to keep it that way. I am on a comfortable path - I am sorry that you do not agree with it or support it.

It seems everyone is angry or bitter or judgemental if they disagree with you I see. You should be proud of your accomplishments - less than 5% of the marriages that land here are saved. But trying to say that there is only one answer or one path b/c it worked for YOU, with YOUR W, in your UNIQUE situation....

Well, let me say even the host of this BB does not claim that.

I know deep down that you are really trying to help but this is not helping.

Thanks again for stopping by. I wish you all the best.
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/01/07 10:16 PM
Jenny - thanks for stopping by. I am still following along with you but I too am out of words. Things are going so well for you. Thanks for your continued support.

And ISLH: thanks also. It has been a long road for both of us and you have been there. I wish things turned out differnetly for us but I know we will make the best of the hand we were dealt. Despite the recent banter here and on FIB's thread, I for one am thankful for were I am and I read that in your words also. We did not get to the place we wanted to go, but our new destination offers opportunity and hope. Thanks again for sticking with me.

Good Labor Day so far. I have the kids and we are having fun. The sun is not out however - it may rain. I wanted to go swimming but better not. Tomorrow we see my mom, should be fun.
Posted By: Lissie Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/02/07 02:22 AM
Next time you are in Jersey, I will make you a mojito

Have a great weekend lovey.
Mojitos....

Have you tried the raspberry mojitos? My favourite.
Posted By: Lissie Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/02/07 01:17 PM
Yes, mamma, and strawberry I love too.

Jeff, we hijacked with booze talk from chicks, sorry
Posted By: frank_D Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/03/07 12:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Jeff223
Thanks again frank but let us just conclude this conversation. I am in a good place right now and I want to keep it that way. I am on a comfortable path - I am sorry that you do not agree with it or support it.
Your words. I never said I disagree or don't support your path. I only did my best to point out that there are always opportunities in any interactions with an 'ex wife' to make it better. And, making it 'better' means that you won't have to live for the next 10 years being bitter and angry every time you deal with her. neither will she.

Jeff, that's really all I care about. That the path you are on can find some healing for you and for her. That's it. For your sake, the kids sake and because I care. Maybe the way I presented my observations caused you to feel defensive and if so, then I didn't do a very good job.

I hope you continue to feel good about your choices and find what you are looking for, maybe a woman who doesn't need you to be her 'daddy'. I don't know. Either way you certainly deserve your happiness like everyone else.

Quote:
It seems everyone is angry or bitter or judgemental if they disagree with you I see.
Really?

Whether someone disagrees with me doesn't determine if I think they are stuck in anger, bitterness or judgement. Many people disagree with me and many people change my perception of things. I see what I see and I say what I feel.I admit when I'm wrong and I learn from others.

When I get a sense that someone is reacting to an issue very strongly, more so than others may be, then it's a sure bet it's resonating with something they feel emotional about in their OWN life.

Quote:
You should be proud of your accomplishments - less than 5% of the marriages that land here are saved. But trying to say that there is only one answer or one path b/c it worked for YOU, with YOUR W, in your UNIQUE situation....
It's true that a very few of the marriages that land here are 'saved'. By the time they do get here they have progressed way beyond any rational discussion and into the absurd, insane place of affairs, anger, bitterness or other crazy making situations.

I'm surprised that any DO get saved but it seems like the ones that DO are because they got here BEFORE it was really out of control, and they calmed themselves down and kept the anger and bitterness at bay.

I never advocate that MY way is the ONLY way or the BEST way. You probably don't read my posts to others threads except FIB's. On some I tell them to 'tough love' the person and boot them out. Others I say that they need to run like hell because this person is a psychopath.

With you, my message is 'work through the anger and look for the positives because you'll be interacting with this person for a long time.'

Quote:
I know deep down that you are really trying to help but this is not helping.

Thanks again for stopping by. I wish you all the best.


And the best to you too. The conversation is 'concluded'.
Posted By: TNP Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/03/07 04:57 AM
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the fathers day greet. Had a better day than I imagined I would (fancy that). Still, it could have been heaps better.

Took the kids (3 youngest, eldest is more independent now) out till mid afternoon and had the option of going to in laws for afternoon tea with w's extended family. Knowing w would have om round I advised MIL & FIL 'thanks for the invite but I know you'll understand why I wont be there', MIL said I can hang around the others and he keeps a low profile. Made me think 'yeah pretty low indeed'. So got back to family home and w was out for a ride with om, said I my good byes to the kids and left.

Went to the local spiritual church after leaving family home and did a meeting later that evening. I made sure I did a few more meetings that week just in case.

All in all not a bad fathers day. It is funny how our thoughts can dream up all sorts of nightmare scenarios for us isn't it.

Take care

Paul.
Hope you and the kids have had a wonderful Labor Day weekend.

besos,
BA
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/04/07 12:02 AM
Thanks BA - I thought I drove you off b/c of my poor words.

The kids and I had a great weekend. We did get to swim and we played new games. Priceless.

Former W came to get them today. I had them all week b/c she was on travel.

She emailed me Friday and asked was it ok to get them Saturday "for a few hours" so she can get them haircuts. Now...I can get them haircuts; I knew better. So I said - why not get them Monday for lunch and keep them for the rest of the weekend. She wrote back "can I get them later in the week also (on my time) to make up for my travel" ???

The court order does not allow "make up time" and my schedule is 40%. So I wrote back saying I offered for her keep the kids Monday b/c I was "trying to be flexible, not for make up time - apparently I failed". She responded with an apology and said "sorry I worded it that way - I just miss the kids".

She came to pick them up today. Could not keep eye contact, could not wait to leave - although we all were glad to see her and I was very upbeat.

She is hurting. And I got to thinking.

A lot of water under the bridge here this past week. Much to think about.

-------

I was wrong. I am stuck in anger and resentment. Not good. With some good inputs I post the following:

I haven't been letting go of former W . I am letting go now. I'm sorry she is gone. It's nobody’s fault; it's just the way it is. I accept it; I cannot move forward until I do.

I have accepted my role in this. I am working on changing me and the things in my control. She didn't expect me to change, and even though I have she refuses to see or thinks it “too little, too late” to trust that I will stay changed. I will, and I will demonstrate that, but for me.

fW will continue down her own path to find her own identity, and it's not anything I can change. It has nothing to do with me; it's about her and her happiness. She may still care for me but she wasn't happy in our life and thinks that leaving is the only way she will be happy. It is a decision she must make at this point in her life. I can now put the negative thoughts about this out of my mind where they do not belong.

I am tired of the hurt; I still care but I must no longer be affected by her actions or words.

I will forgive her and forgive myself.

I know that I will continue to experience strong emotional swings but I will embrace them for growth. I will let my emotions run their course and accept what they are telling me. They are part of the healing process. Anger is a teacher – resentment is not.

I will support her unconditionally the best I can given the boundaries I set for myself.

------------

Some of this I posted before. But as I said on another thread - time to walk the talk.

To those who tried to help with honest posts - I am sorry. I will try to do better in the future.

Strength and Honor.
Absolutely, you did not run me off, nor could you, unless you at some point make it clear that's what you want...

I am more impressed than I can say with what you posted, with your continuing growth. You know, in the end, that's all any of us can do...continue to strive to get through that very narrow door.

You will make it. I believe that about you.
besos,
BA
Posted By: frank_D Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/04/07 01:45 AM
Originally Posted By: BaseballAnnie
I am more impressed than I can say with what you posted, with your continuing growth. You know, in the end, that's all any of us can do...continue to strive to get through that very narrow door.

You will make it. I believe that about you.
I echo Annie on this one. You're the man.
Quote:
I read all the books, tried to follow advice here, and tried my best, doing the things I thought were "correct".

It did no good. Nothing did. I disagree that she showed any signs of reaching out. You had to be there. If she tried to be nice it was manipulative to get her way. All she has done for the past 19 months is to move on without me and put me down.


...and Jeff...I understand this comment. I know. Sometimes...people really CAN'T know what' going on, and, our words are all that they can go on. Sometimes in haste we leave small details out...sometimes...we put too much in.

No one knows unless you can walk in a person's shoes.

After all this time, look at how much activity your thread has generated. I still learn and, like you, I hope I haven't scared off lissie and BBA. I've always wanted to be a pool boy.

Your last post is the best yet. Stay strong Jeff. We all know that you didn't 'fail'. You...we..made mistakes. We learn. We try to grow.

BTW.....at least you didn't cut up a credit card in front of your W. Don't feel so bad.

Frank
Posted By: Lissie Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/04/07 03:26 PM
Quote:
After all this time, look at how much activity your thread has generated. I still learn and, like you, I hope I haven't scared off lissie and BBA. I've always wanted to be a pool boy.


(sigh) he pulled at my heart strings with the pool boy commnent.

It is so hard to detach from you guys


Jeff the fact that you wrote I will try to do better. (sigh)

shows how much you have grown, and continue growing.

You have taught me and others so much.

smoooches, lovey.
meh.

He's just looking for Bandwagon Babes.
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/04/07 05:04 PM
Thanks FIB. Just like on this thread, everyone is only trying to help. They respond to what we write. What we write depends on our attitude and PMA, or lack of. Sometimes we come across wrong. I have never met anyone here who has intentionally tried to hurt me, nor do I see that on your thread. For you - you need a break from advice until you weather the storm. Thanks for posting your support despite your problems.

--------------

Thanks for stopping by ladies. Mojitos come in different flavors? Shows how uninformed I am here so I looked it up. Rum drinks are always sweet for my taste but I will try almost anything once. My drink of choice is Tenn Whisky with a bit of spring water over ice. Dry, not sweet.

--------------

I took my mom to the doctor today and she told me former W called her! I wonder why? My mom gave up on her after she got out of the hospital last March. Found out my former MIL is not doing too well - fW did not tell me that when I asked, but fW just got back from a visit. The rest was small talk - but I am suprised fW called.

Mom is doing well. Routine check by the lung doc (she was very sick with pneumonia early this year). The CAT scan showed clear lungs but found some questionable areas on her esophagus. So off we go to another doc. Mom is fed up with doctors (no offense FIB). At 90-years young she just wants to be left alone - not probed. I bet this is nothing - these CAT scans are so good sometimes they indicate things that are not there. Plus she has had many scans this year - all were normal in that area.

Thanks all for sticking with me. Almost time for a new thread. A happy thread me thinks
Jeff...I'm sick of doctors too. As a group, we suck at sticking together. No lobbying ability. One doc will tell you to 'don't sign that contract' and then, THEY'LL sign it behind your back.

As for mom, I think I'd leave her alone. What will you do with the results? Endoscopy? Biopsy? JMO. But..on the flipside, she weathered the other storm. Is she stronger? Has she gotten her stamina back?

As for me, despite the hailstorm, you wouldn't believe that I am chugging along. My focus is on the kids and finances. Frank
Posted By: Just_Me Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/04/07 06:21 PM
Quote:
And that is okay. For some here "standing" is the only course, even if it means standing forever. "Stand" and you are strong - anything else is wrong and you are weak. They are "sick" after all. Someone even once said the OM is a "drug" for their illness and therefore that is okay.

Spare me. Please.



I'm with you on this. No reason to make excuses for them. I wasn't suggesting that, I hope you know. I guess I might have read some of that wrong and I think it's good to move forward.
Hey, if you are out there, I could use a man's perspective, your perspective, on what I just posted on my thread.

And a hand hold...

thanks,
BA
Posted By: frank_D Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/05/07 04:36 AM
Originally Posted By: faithisbelieving
BTW.....at least you didn't cut up a credit card in front of your W. Don't feel so bad.


I Cut up several. It was very definitive. She wanted OM and 'freedom'. It comes with a price. She got the lesson.

There is nothing wrong with that when someone is being irresponsible and also saying they are 'leaving'.

By the way MY COUNSELOR told me to do that. But not to be 'angry'. Just show her that the financial connection was being severed - at her request.
Jeff,

I haven't been on your thread in a while, but your post on mine caused me to come over here and read it.

THANK YOU to everyone who posted about anger, bitterness, compassion. I have a lot to think about.

Best,
Nicola
Hey Jeff

Quote:
I took my mom to the doctor today and she told me former W called her! I wonder why?


Regardless what is going on btwn you and your fW, I'm sure fW still cares about your Mom.

I'm sure that the fact that her Mom is also not doing well, she is coming to the realization that there will be a void there and this may very well have her hit rock bottom.

If and when that should happen, I'm sure you will show her the man that you really are whether you choose to stand for your M or not but for the sake of your kids.

The fact that your Mom still welcomes your fW, shows what a wonderful woman your Mom is.

A happy thread is what I'm looking forward to seeing too.

Hugs,
ISLH
Hey, Boo,

Waiting on that happy thread...

<tapping>
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/18/07 03:45 PM
I wanted to post this here since I feel so strongly that this was so true in my case. It was posted by "Underdog" on WCW's thread.

Quote:
I can tell you from experience that detaching in a loving fashion isn't THAT hard once you've been able to do it effectively a few times. Taking that first step is very difficult, so why not give yourself some time? If you think about it, lovingly detaching is honoring a personal boundary--and you're so worth that effort. Not every bad action needs to have a selfish or unkind response. Even if you don't feel he deserves that, you do. Because how you treat him is going to come back to you hundredfold.

I'm sure I did tell him in the beginning that I honestly felt we could and should fix what was broken. But as you can guess, that fell on deaf ears and was a pretty desperate path with a cheeseless tunnel. I soon found DB/DR and started MC and decided to follow my instructions to the letter and just leave him be. So here's how he knew.

I acted AS IF there was nothing wrong with our set up. I acted AS IF I was hopeful about our outcome. I acted AS IF there were no elephant in our living room--for the simple fact that I walked a tightrope where either way might have pressured him into doing what I didn't want him to do. I have no regrets and it honestly was a 180 for me--I've typically been a realistic person who just acts on the obvious. I didn't want to assume that we were headed for divorce, so I acted as if we were eventually going to reconcile. With me so far?

What I didn't find out until much later was that this pi$$ed him off. He once again indicated that he felt I was going to get my way, ergo that would mean he lost the battle and the war. He said my blind hopefulness was--in his opinion--just another means of me not taking him or his actions seriously. Well, believe me that I was taking every bit of this journey very seriously. And what I had done in the past didn't work so I was more than willing to change how I interacted with him.

Let me say this after the fact--I do NOT blame myself for this outcome or how I played that hand of cards. I see now that he was effectively throwing things back in my face to take it off his back. No matter what I had chosen to do, he would have interpreted the mechanism to suit his purposes. What I'm trying to convey to you guys is that if your H is hell bent on this same type of MO, make sure that your actions are completely true to who you are and the person you want the world to see who you are. It's the only way you're going to get to the other side whole and believing in yourselves.

Now, if your H is truly looking to give you the benefit of the doubt and is making a solid and truthful attempt at healing, you're not going to be in my shoes. My only advice would be to make sure that your actions equal your words and they aren't conveying non-verbal thoughts that don't jive with those slippery WAHs. Let me give you one clear example. My actions were overall for the greater good, but the subliminal message underlying my entire belief system was that Mr. W. was out of his mind and he would eventually regain his sanity.

It didn't help that there were tons of posters way back when who referred to their spouses as aliens. I was a bit uncomfortable with that notion. Just because our spouses don't agree with us and our set of values does not make them crazy or insane. It may mean a lot of things that aren't altogether positive, but it does not mean they are crazy or wrong for feeling the way they feel. I didn't (and still don't) agree with the reasons why Mr. Wonderful left me. I still get angry with him for our divorce (our 17th wedding anniversary was this past Saturday and I only felt some lingering anger). But his truth was that he no longer wanted to be married to me.

I didn't and don't like the reasons why he chose door #3. I've changed and he's admitted that freely. But for the longest time, he said he felt no hope that we could ever fix what was wrong. It's too bad, because I did what God asked me to do and he would have reaped the benefits from it. But he reaped anyway, because I'm a much nicer and kinder friend now that I've come through the tunnel. He's still the father to my girls and for that fact alone, I will give him respect. I still feel he's depressed and needs some help. But he's not an alien or insane and because he no longer wants to be married to me doesn't mean there is something inherently wrong with me. I'm human and flawed, but I am lovable and worthy of a man's love. Just not his--and I deserve that and more from a spouse.
Posted By: WCW Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/18/07 11:13 PM
Underdog is incredible, such insight and the words to express herself. I wish I had that gift.

But hey! whatchoo you doin' scabbin' from my thread and you didn't even say hi!
And that IS an incredible post. And it applies to many WAS's here. Including mine to a degree. I've never espoused the 'crazy' or 'alien' terms either..nor the 'they are sick phrase'. They are justifications for the pain we feel and a way to cope with feelings of rejection we are experiencing. I agree with Underdog..whatever happened to our S's....whether it be 'change' or allowing a repressed self to come thru or new psychological issues taking over....they choose NOT to be with us anymore. It is how we cope with this...change and grow...that really is what matters.

Strength and honor.
FIB
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/21/07 04:44 PM
Thanks WCW. Your thread is full of good insights.

That is also good insight Frank. Thanks. I did use the Alien word and it helped. I also thought MLC but I soon realized that was not the whole picture.

I have been in a better place lately. The anger is gone (finally) and now I am back to sorrow and a bit of forgiveness. Still a bit stuck but life will go on.

I have interacted with former W a bit more lately. Still cannot look me in the eye. A good friend suggested there may be the OM after all. I still don't think so but you never know.

I think she is still guilty and sad for breaking us up and b/c she cannot find the inner strength to try again. That must be hard for her. She is also still angry at me for "causing" all this. She sent me an email telling me that her father was coming to attend his brother's funeral and could she keep the kids. She also said her mom took a turn for the worse (fluid in the lung). Instead of emailing I called. We talked some but I could tell she was not comfortable talking and the anger was just below the surface. But she finally talked about her mom - gave a lot of info. I told her "call me if you need to - I don't bite". She quickly said in an annoyed tone "Don't worry, I am not afraid" - then she laughed; it was her way of asserting her independence.

Funny, today on the way to the funeral (she went with her dad) she got lost. Guess who she called for help??? I was very suprised by that call.

The last draft of the Divorce papers are at the lawyers - should be divorced by Thanksgiving.

Then time to move forward into a new life.

And a new thread it appears.

Strength and Honor.
Jeff...I don't really feel like the right person...or at your level to say this..but...I'm proud of you. Recall the intense anger my W had with me in March. I know a lot of it is still there, perhaps, she let a bit go. I think that, over time, your W will too. She does what my W does..twist's things that we say into words personal attacks or threats or 'words of badness'. I know what your comment meant.....I can see how she misinterpreted that..the same way that my W misinterpreted what I said the other day.

In spite of how much we feel that we got the 'short end of the stick', I am only now beginning to realize that....just like you....our desire to bring children into this world with our S's will keep us forever connected to them. It behooves us to find the right place to be with them. It angers me right now when my W says that 'she loves me', 'you can't tell me what my feelings are for you'. This is NOT what I/we want to hear, but, you....and I ...eventually....will have to be in the same room...on the same dance floor.....when our kids get married.

U da man.
As always, Strength and Honor.
FIB
Posted By: frank_D Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/21/07 05:32 PM
FIB, well said. Jeff223 is definatly 'Da Man'.
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/24/07 08:05 PM
Well, S9 turned S10 yesterday

They do grow up fast. Got him some games and a book and he was very happy. I cooked him a special dinner and my mom came over. He really liked the cake - cookies and cream. I gained several pounds

This is the first time in 10 years former W did not have her son on his birthday. It should not be that way but this whole situation is beyond my control. I wish it were otherwise. I could give up part of my time but when I do I get nothing in return. Plus, trading my son like a ball on HIS day .... bahh.

I did let former W keep the kids Thurs and Fri nights. Her father came in for a funeral and had not seen the kids in some time. She said thanks when I offered to give up my time but that was it - like she "expected" it.

I called her Sat to arrange for pickup and she was all terse - yes/no answers, did not want to talk to me. I went to pick them up - she never once looked at me. Kids were all hugs but she avoided any eye contact. So all I wanted to do was leave. The only thing she asked was did I like her new car! Imagine. I said it looked fine and we left.

I wish she were indifferent but she is not. She still cares for the family (me included) - I cannot imagine how she justifies to herself that this is *best* for everyone. The anger and the guilt are alive and well. She cares and she continues to struggle with this whole thing. But her struggle is to write me off - she does not have the strength and courage to try again. I feel so sorry for her but there is nothing I can do.

As we drove off she teared up. Knowing I would have the kids and she would miss a milestone in my son's life. She did call on his birthday. I don't listen in but my son did say she was crying.

She is so wrapped up in the kids. They are her whole world. In a few years my son becomes a teen. Will W let him grow, cut the apron strings, so he can become a man rather than her little boy? I hope so. On the other hand, will she refuse to let them go, to give up her support? Will my son become a "momma's boy"???

I hope I am wrong. All I can do is be the best father I can be.
Posted By: frank_D Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 09/26/07 08:55 PM


Hey Jeff,

Here's a guy who is a doormat and needs input from real men. I already posted to him. 2x4's to the rescue!

Lesters Story
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 10/01/07 11:07 PM
This was in today's newspaper. Remember this when you think of your WAS. Some folks are made of stronger stuff than what we were married to.

This is one of the longest marriages known today.

SCOTTSBORO, AL. Eighty years ago today, Alonzo Sims paid Luther Miller $5 to drive him and Beulah Smith 50 miles to Tenn to get married. Miller's Model T Ford was the only car in the area in 1927. Sims had been working at the Miller's farm, plowing fields with a mule and picking cotton from sunrise until dark for $.50 per day.

(so, $5 was a BIG fee!)

At the end of one workday, when Sims was watering the mules, Beulah approached him and declared her love for him. What did Sims think? "Well, I thought she was purrdee". He was 15 and she was 12. They married two years later.

Married life was hard - the Depression hit in 1929. Despite the hard times they raised six children. Sims paid $300 for his first car - a used 1926 Ford and got his first tractor in 1940. In 1949 they got electricity and in 1960 indoor plumbing (remember this is rural Alabama; there are still some dirt roads here).

Now 97 and 94 and in a nursing home together, they both said while life was hard their M has been free of fussing. "We have been too busy to fight".

Grinning, Sims moved his wheelchair closer to his W and planted a big kiss on her cheek. "After all these years, I still enjoy being with her" he said.

That picture was on the front page of the newspaper. It made my day.

It is easy to walk away. Some are made of stronger stock.
I love this...thanks for posting.

besos,
BA
Posted By: Jen_Jam Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 10/02/07 09:56 PM
Hmmm... this is interseting. There's a big fuss in the papers right now about people being less happy than they used to be. We have more now (material possesions) but we expect more of ourselves. Made me think these days we really need this poem

"LEISURE"

What is this life if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.

No time to stand beneath the boughs
And stare as long as sheep or cows.

No time to see, when woods we pass,
Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.

No time to see, in broad daylight,
Streams full of stars, like skies at night.

No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
And watch her feet, how they can dance.

No time to wait till her mouth can
Enrich that smile her eyes began.

A poor life this if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.

By Wm. Henry Davies.
Thanks for posting to me, the hugs and expressing the confidence that you have that it will all be fine.

I believe that too.

You have been a good and loyal friend to me, thanks for hanging in there with me.

So, Liss tells me she is going HERE:

http://lolas-tapas-wine-bar-hoboken.com/index.html

for drinks tonight, and since you're a Hoboken guy, I thought of you and wondered if you'd ever been.

I say we hop a flight and give it a try...

besos,
BA
Posted By: Jeff223 Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 10/05/07 07:03 PM
Talk about memories!

That place is right around the block and down the street from where I grew up!

I have not been back to Hoboken since 1980 or so. From the photo everything has changed. Hoboken was a dump in the 70's, then land prices went through the roof - thus fancy Spanish tapas bars are now possible.

That tapas bar used to be a Cuban store that sold odds and ends - you know, newspapers, milk, cigars, lottery tickets ... a little of everything. My father used to send me there when he needed something. I really liked the owner but for the life of me I cannot remember his name now.

14th street was a strong Spanish neighborhood when I lived there: folks from Cuba and Puerto Rico mostly. I lived on 13th street - end of the Italian neighborhood. Rather than walk four or five blocks to the Italian stores, I normally went to the Spanish places around the corner.

The photo now shows an upscale block with a few places - I remember many smaller stores in a row: food stores with veggies out front, a meat market where chickens were still alive until you purchased them, a fish place, several deli establishments, a post office, several *real* bars (no one knew what tapas were then!), etc. Small shops owned by small shop owners. People everywhere, including folks looking out the windows of the tenements above the stores.

Yes I have been, but it was so, so different then.

Thanks again for memories!
Posted By: frank_D Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 10/06/07 04:45 AM
How is Liss doing Annie?
Hey Jeff,

That was just beautiful. Sounds like a fairy tale.

How wonderful that they found true love.

Not sure that too many people believe in it anymore, really sad.

I heard someone say a few days ago that it is hard to love the same person forever because we change, they change therefore she didn't believe you could love the same person forever. Yet, she is moving to Geneva Switzerland to be with her bf even if it doesn't last forever.

I just believe most people simply don't try anymore. Life is so busy and hard that they are willing to sacrifice the one most important thing in their life, their M.

Hope all is well with you.

Hugs,
ISLH
Hey, frank, as you would expect, Liss is doing just awesome.

I will see her on Thursday.

I will plant a big, sloppy one on her from you, 'kay??

BA
Posted By: frank_D Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 10/06/07 10:42 PM
Originally Posted By: BaseballAnnie
Hey, frank, as you would expect, Liss is doing just awesome.

I will see her on Thursday.

Good for her. It seemed like she was in a tough situation.

Quote:
I will plant a big, sloppy one on her from you, 'kay??

BA
Better not, my wife wouldn't like that.....
Posted By: Lissie Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 10/07/07 02:06 AM
Jeff I bet you know at least one of my brothers.

Hoboken has changed sooooo much, It is a mazing what a rich town it has become, and yes everything still delivers.

Lola's is wonderful.

It is my home, even tho I don't live there anymore.

Come and visit and I will show you the new sights.

Nuttin like a Hobokener!
Posted By: Lissie Re: Loss of compassion means loss of self - 10/07/07 02:07 AM
Hi Frank ,

Thanks for asking about me, I am good, thanks.
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