Landing in this forum after 1.5 years

F4W, you are on my mind a lot lately. You are doing very good under the circumstance. I so hope that your wife wakes up and realizes what she is doing to herself and your kids and you.

Hugs to you... hang in there and keep up the good work.

F4W clearly this is a crappy place to be in. Still, if we are committing to work on ourselves and to be the best that we can, we always need to look what we are doing and saying. In your post I see you saying how you supported your STBX in what she was saying and doing. That is your statement. In the same post I see how you are telling her how wrong she is, that what she is doing is wrong, etc. How is that supporting her? Now, mind you, I agree with you. She is wrong (in my eyes) and what she is doing sucks. But then you have to at least admit that you are not supporting her. You don't get it both ways on this one.

Then you have to decide what it is you want at this point. Are you hoping to get her back? Are you hoping that this M will still work out? Then I'm not sure what you are saying and doing is going to get you at all closer to your goals. While I have been pretty clear on how I'm somewhat down on DBing and firmly believe it is not nearly as effective as we want to think or have been lead to think, I still think it's our best shot. I don't have a better idea. To that end, again your tact is not going to work.

And finally, if you really believe that the two attornies here don't like or perhaps hate each other, which seems a bit odd to me but anyhow, if that is what you think is the case, you really need to dump your attorney and get one that is not at odds with your W's. No good will come from this if these two are really after each other - and if they are both females, good Lord, please dump her. I'm not against female att. just ones that hate the opposing council. I certainly think it is poss. they could drag the two of you into their issues - even if they are not trying to do that. I'm not sure that attornies help at all in a D to begin with. Honestly, I have not seen att. help much at all in matters of one person v another. Almost every single time that att. get involved all that happens is greater frustration and lots of cash out the door and into the att. When they have underlying issues it can only get worse.

Not a rosey post to you - I know that. It does come with honesty and in a manner of trying to point out some things for you to consider. I ask again though, what is it you want at this point? What are your new goals? Lay them out and then decide how to best get there.

My Current Sitch

F4W,

Sorry to hear its come to this. I have no idea if you are doing the right thing or not, but this is almost exactly where I was this spring. For my wife and I, it is one thing to go around tossing out ultimatums and threats of divorce, but it is completely something else to realize you are really going through it. I seem to recall it was you who would make those threats, which is why we need to be careful what we ask for.

I see your wife�s erratic emotional swings as a natural pattern, one both my wife and I went through (and still go through). She is responding to the surfacing of polar emotions � fear and denial. The fear is obvious. She is afraid of being alone, she�s scared for her future security as well as that of her kids. Your threat to sue for �full custody� (which would really be primary guardian) has triggered some of her deepest fears. There should be no surprise here because I think all of us are ready to acknowledge our fear of losing our kids.

But I think she is also torn by her denial of her own vulnerability, the feeling of how exposed she will be outside of the comfort she gets from marriage (though does not want to admit to), so anger bubbles to the top and she rages at you. I see this particular reaction is very healthy. It is what you have wanted to see all along and it is what she needs to come to terms with. I think she may be scared of confronting her vulnerability, her fear of abandonment and all that. But that is contrary to the image she would like to maintain of herself, so she has repressed looking at herself for years. Now the mirror has cracked and she is confronted with the weakness of that supposedly strong person. I hope she will accept this part of herself and come to terms with it.

This is her first step in differentiating, and it is not unlike the 12 steps in treating addiction � she first needs to recognize she has a problem (Lil knows more about this than me). I think this is the point where you need to REALLY put on the alpha male cloak that Blackfoot talks about and provide her a solid, stable anchor point so she can regain her bearing. This does NOT mean you should re-enmesh with her in any way. You are there to offer a supporting hand. If she loosens her grip, she will slip and she needs to know that it is her action and not yours that will cause this, but you WILL NOT, MUST NOT do anything to try and rescue her if she does let go.

I hurt for her pain right now.

It is good that you are empathic toward her, but do not let this slip into your usual rescuing mode. Her problem is not your problem. The more you try to help her, the more you hurt her, yourself, and your kids! Your number one priority right now is to hold onto yourself. Read through Lil�s thread on Coming to Your Senses to help you with this. Hang in there, you are actually doing exactly what you have to do!

Ohhhh, and one other thing�.. It is good that those on this particular board are giving you some moral support and affirmation. We all need it, especially in these hard times. But do not read too much into it. The danger is that you are emotionally vulnerable right now too and this kind of affirmation is SOOOO enticing, it is easy to get on your pity pot and then feel entitled to something better. That will only spiral you down into that resentment pit and you�ve been there before. Take your medicine, come to terms with the fact that you are as responsible for making this mess as your wife, you are not the nice guy, saint, etc. and she is not some devil. You are both normal people with normal dysfunctions trying to find your way through life. Yours is a normal growth process.

Don,

Very good post. I am not offended in the least. I agree there may be contradicting statements in my last encounter with her, but to the end of making the point that I am not going to accept her logic that Divorce is logical or I have to agree with it on her "terms" because she desires it.

What do I want? Very good question. What I want is to work on our marriage and be able to get past the resentment of the errors in our past. To lay down the arms and work together in rebuilding something we each tore apart.
As I stated to her, things have been said in the past few weeks that have cut me very deep and will take time to heal. But I can move beyond and grow knowing she is so confused and may or may not have known what she was saying. The only way that our M can be saved is to remove D from the vocabulary and table. Otherwise both of us can default back to that position.

Don, I am in a place where I am able to walk away from this marriage nd move on. It is not the decision that I want to make. But it is a decision where I will fight for my kids and my life after divorce. Her current pleadings place me with minmal contact with my children for a majority of the year and places me in a financial bind that I would not get out from under unless I file for bankruptcy. So if faced with a decision of D then I must look for my chidren's interest and then my own.
As to support, I am here for her, always will be, but I am unable to rescue her from what she is doing and the ramifications of that. When she needs help, wants to work, then I can offer more. Right now it seems aloof, but my best place for her and I is to remain in a position that allows her to make a choice and live with the consequences.

As to attorney's mine is male and very pro-marriage and would like nothing better than to see us work this out or at least settle without going to trial. Her's is a female that is very condesending. She and my attorney do not like each other. In fact, my wife does not like her either.

My goals have remained the same, to offer unconditional love to my wife, to work and repair our marriage, to drop the BS and move forward. But in that same breath those goals only fit if she wants similar goals. If she chooses D, then my goals are to protect my children the best I can, protect myself finacially, and to eliminate the collateral damage D causes in families.

I am trying not to smug about this. It tears me apart emotionally to see her this way. To hear her cry uncontrollably and say she does not want to hurt me, to say she just wants out, does not put me in a position for compassion, but I do have empathy. Again, for me to force her to make a decision I want is counterproductive. My only move is to let her work this out. A better response I guess to her statements is just to validate and say that is a possible solution to the issues.

Don, thanks again. You cannot offend me, in fact I appreciate the perspective.

F4W

Cobra,

Thank you for the reply to my requst. I am trying to hold onto the stance that I am unable to rescue her. Even if I try, the rescuing will be short lived and we will have accomplished nothing. I agree with the statement about her confronting her fears. This has been coming for the last few weeks. She, I beleive, is seeing that she will not get her way and I will not give in. Not in a mean way. But again in the knowledge that she needs to pull asisde the veil and take a hard look at herself. I had to do this. It is horrible what you see. But knowing what I do know and have gleamed from others (You, BF, Lil, Chrome) you have to confront it then you have to move beyond it and build a better you that is dependant on only you.
Do not take this the wrong way, through this process I may not save my marriage, b/c at this point it is not mine to save. But in doing this, I am actually allowing my wife to be herself again. She will, I hope, be able to build her true self again.

You are correct, I have done shameful and horrible things in 12 years. All of which I have apologized for to her. I have asked forgiveness from God, and importantly forgiven myself. I am not the knight in white, but rather the peasant trying to find his path.

Thanks Cobra.

F4W

Dude.

Having just recently gone through the D journey myself, I am sorry to see you here.

I am on a fact finding mission, so please bear with me.

If you got full-custody of your kids, how would you care for them?

If your wife did get full custody, do you trust her as a mother to take good care of your kids?

Why do you balk at an amount of CS that the court would deem fair?

The reason I ask this last question is one of legal strategy, and my attny. used it against my XH. The very fact that you would balk indicates that you are more worried about money than you are about your children's well-being... whether the amount is fair or not. It is a slippery slope that you will traverse. Keep this in mind when discussing these things with your attny. I will hold off on more advice at this time... I'm not saying these things to piss you off... but one thing you CAN NOT DO right now is think like a man.

How old are your kids?

What are the laws in your state? Are you in a no-fault state? Are you in a state where you have to be legally separated for a certain time before you D is granted?

Okay. Enough for now. You are in my prayers.

Corri

"However, aside from Cobra, I haven't noticed anyone challenging you lately. "

Hey, hey, hey!!! What am I... chopped liver? I may not have challanged in a nasty way but I certainly challanged. - Damn it! Didn't I? At least I think I did. Well I certainly tried to

she bounced back and forth about calling off the divorce, she can do the marriage, to why can't I just let her go, tell her what I want and she will follow, to she is scared b/c I might seek full custody, she will have her attorney make the needed changes, I mean she was all over the place

IMO F4W, I dont see these comments as being all over the place. In each and every comment, you can see her either acqueising to you, or asking your for leadership. Her emotions have her so overwrought that she is communicating directly with you, with barely a hint of womanese. This is very positive.

Now this doesnt mean I want you to go shout, demand or even tell her to stop the divorce. Your actions and responses to her were excellent. Seriously. I had to do the snoopy dance. BF--->

A lot of those comments took either big brass ones or indifferent detachment, and you obviously are not detached.

Im going to guess that you are thinking... how can the statement "why can't I just let her go," be positive?

She is seeking validation in this comment. In your pain, and fear of loss, lack of confidance, you are misinterpreting her intent. She has treated you abominable and she knows it. She doesnt think she deserves your love. This is one reason you need to lay off the ILY. She cant let you love her, and those comments and behaviors give her something to resist. This is the reason your telling her she isnt nice and you dont like her very much right now, is positive. It meshes with her inner voice and lets her know she has things she needs to work on. Its the opposite of supplicating. Its the truth, and its congruent. she doesnt have to fear a hidden agenda down the road, (backlash, anger, cruelty, fake love) when she sees you coming from your place of honesty.

All while you are standing there steadfast and not jumping up and down the emotional ladder with her. Women are so attracted to that. This is just another test.

So a couple ideas.
Do you know the concept of imagary? its used in sports alot, but it works in all things.
Continue to be certain of what you want. See it. Dont let anything Shake your vision of what you want to be.
if or when she says blah blah let me go.blah blah. try something like ' Im not holding you here. Im glad that you are, but You are here,..... because you want to be.' This comment is confidant, and reassuring. ignore all negative responses or cruel words, if.... .

Try to eliminate the ---'if you want'... or... 'you know, you dont have tooo'.... etc. It comes across supplicating. She knows she doesnt have to do anything. It doesnt have to be said. You arent forcing or demanding anything. Just being certain, confidant, and headed to where you want to be.

Think of other ways to communicate that you are certain she loves you and confidant she wants a good marriage with you. Every time you fight she practically begs you to lead.
sooo.
lead. with baby steps. Little things. day to day stuff.
no demands. if and when she chooses not to follow, shrug it off.

So my sister writes an email to my STBXW and tries to get her to consider joint custody
This is the second time OP has gotten involved in your affairs. I dont see any benefit. Unless you do, get these OP under control, where it comes to YOUR marriage. I know your sister saw you in pain. Its not her problem to fix though.

F4W-

I am glad others can offer some more insight into your stich (blackfoot, DonH, cobra, et al). It all seems like really wise advice with points and counter points - in the end it really makes you think. It made me think alot about what I might have to prepare for.

You are at a different place in your stich than I, so I didn't feel like I could offer much advice (heck I can't even keep my sitch under control

So given I don't have much advice, I just wanted to show support - let you know I am praying for you. But some on this thread seem like they have some nice points/different perspectives - which is most welcome by all of us.

God Bless you man! I hope the small positive signs turn into something good for your M.

God Bless,
Santhony

BF,

I agree she is being totally honest and reaching out. Here is my thinking and issues.

If I were to say, I am glad you are willing to call of the divorce and stay married. How do I overcome the issue that she is being a martyr and doing something she willingly is uncaplabe of doing? I guess I can answer that myself. I have no control over that and need to continue to lead if she decides to stay by being a loving husband.

The lead I have taken has been little in the past few days because my side job has kept me away for 4 nights. I think it also a good thing because we have had minimal contact and she has had "space" at night.

I agree to stop ILY. My response from now on when asked why I am staying, why I will not let her go will be. "I have already told you my reasons and feelings. I am not keeping you here though I am glad you decide to stay and you choose to do so."

The fact here is I am as confused as she is, from the standpoint I do not truly know what to say or answer her and still be supportive and true to me.

F4W

F4W, I've been quiet on your sitch since I was pretty hard on you a while ago. I am glad you are getting lots of cyber hugs. I am just as glad you are getting lots of challenges that will really make you think about your thoughts and what is happening in your life. You are explaining yourself very well and I see you stronger now than you have been in the past. We really all need that here, people and friends that will make us be accountable for our actions and not just sit around a campfire singing kumbaya.

Your W does still seem very confused about ending the marriage. Do you remember the post by aynesr about 'taking divorce off the table'? It's been a few months ago, I can put it here if you don't remember it. For me, it's been a few months since H and I had any type of real R talk, and naturally he said then that he was moving out. The day after our talk, I handed him a copy of that article and asked him to read it. We haven't talked R again since then, but something about him has changed, although very subtle. I don't have a clue if it was that article, or my GAL, or anything else in the scope of the world. I just wanted to share this point with you, that IMO it made a change in H, and offer a reminder about that article. It's short, and might make good reading for your W.

You are a very caring person. I wish you all the best in your world.

WCW,

Please link it for me.

Thank you for the kind words.

YEs it feels good to have friends, I am grateful for that.

I am not feeling as strong as I should. Many of the challenges make me think I need to just let it all go. Make the statement joint is fine, she can be the primary caregiver, and just go off into the sunset and wait ot see my boys. Is that not better than dragging this on and dragging my wife throught her emotional hell. Is it rescuing or compassion. H3ll I do not know.

F4W

Here it is, it cuts off at the end, but you'll get the idea...and will have to decide if it's a good idea to hand this to your W. Not sure where aynesr found it, but I am sure glad he was so thoughtful to share it with all of us.

Denying Divorce: Forget About Divorce as an Option, It Just Might Save Your Marriage. No one is saying that your marriage isn't difficult. It might even be miserable. But an interesting set of statistics shows that people who take divorce off the table as an option not only resolve their issues, but end up being happier than ever. If your marriage is feeling troubled, and you're considering divorce, consider trying alternate therapies instead, marriage counseling, or just some open communication.

But whatever you do, don't bring up the "D" word as an option, because doing that will change the rules of the game. Now, of course it's important to acknowledge that there are a lot of influences on you to get a divorce. Your friends who don't like your spouse, legal advertisements, even popular culture. It's a common statistic that most marriages end in divorce, and so it seems like an acceptable, even normal way to resolve problems in a marriage.

But let's look at some statistics. Of all the couples surveyed who were contemplating divorce and then decided not to go through with it, 80% claimed to be happily married only five years later. In all likelihood this is due to two elements. The first is that those couples who decide not to consider divorce, the only remaining option is to deal with the problems experienced in the marriage head-on. This is a powerful and proactive tactic that will lead to acknowledgement of the problems the couples face, and maybe even to solutions.

The other element is that once divorce is considered, the dynamic of the relationship is changed. This is a more subtle, though far more destructive product of considering divorce. The dynamic of this is simple. When a fundamental disagreement develops in a marriage - as it will in almost all relationships - those who never consider divorce are forced to deal with the disagreement. Those who do consider divorce preserve an "out" that can be used without ever addressing the issue.

As the problems in the marriage mount, or the fundamental issues become more divisive, the easy out of divorce can become more and more appealing. This thinking will take both of you, however. When both people in a marriage are actively searching for a solution to a problem, and both accept that divorce is not - and will not be - an option, a solution will almost surely be found. You and your spouse will be asking what you can do to make things better, rather than asking if it's worth it, or if you should cut your losses and run.

Remove divorce as an option and endeavor to go into relationship counseling, therapy of some kind, or just talk about your problems in a mature and open way. It seems simplistic, but statistically it also seems to work. Those who deny divorce as a viable end to a committed marriage will also be more motivated to work on that marriage, and work through the problems that could, without

Many of the challenges make me think I need to just let it all go. Make the statement joint is fine, she can be the primary caregiver, and just go off into the sunset and wait ot see my boys. Is that not better than dragging this on and dragging my wife throught her emotional hell. Is it rescuing or compassion.

its called tough love. and its tough for both of you. You are gaining strength, and showing her that you are strong enough to do this. Thats what she is finding out thru all her emotional struggles with you.

My response from now on when asked why I am staying, why I will not let her go will be. "I have already told you my reasons and feelings. I am not keeping you here though I am glad you decide to stay and you choose to do so When she goes to the effort to be vulnerable and express herself honestly, I dont think denying her that reassurance is such a good idea (saying I already told you). There are ways to show her ILY, thru a gentle touch, a look, a smile. You explained your reasons for giving the ILY. I understand and definitely agreed with you given the context.

I do not truly know what to say or answer her and still be supportive and true to me.

Your fear of loss,(which is driving you to be supplicating and begging) is shouting loudly and confusing your desire to self protect, (berate and abuse her,) another fear. Neither are right. Breathe deep. Be calm. Your doing well. MWD concept of lovingly detach, is dead on. Hard to do when the emotions are banging around making your head hurt, and your soul tired. When you are confidant, and assured, you wont have to think about what to say. It just comes out.

ideas of leading day to day.
In your previous threads, you mentioned she was often asking you to do things for her. You said this made you feel like she wanted to control you? you were being bossed around? I understand. IMO, though,
1) she was giving what she wanted
2) giving her this, will make her feel like she is wanted, needed, part of a team, special. (actually Im not sure how it makes her feel, Im a man, I just know what works.

mostly, sometimes.

)

example. morning. ...F4W: W. Im in a hurry,... make some coffee, would ya. after she does, thank her.
Ill break this down. It comes of slightly bossy, because of the lack of using the words me, or need, or please. Which is likely why you felt this when she was doing it too you, in the past. Women are so in tune with, what they dont want, (a needy man) and also what they want, to be tight knit, feel special, be part of a team, and trying to show that to us, setting an example, and it comes out in their verbals.

another example. F4W: Im hungry. Have you decided on dinner yet? No? Good. I want .... for dinner.

Men have the habit of giving what they want to women, and showing it thru example. you allready know what that is.

Women do the same. The result is neither person giving or getting what they want/need. So stop giving what you want, give what she needs.
Ill give one more RL example. after I decided to reconcile with x, our first interaction was at a family gathering. we had been seperated and I had been darkwith her for 3 months. Everyone started eating (buffett style) and I was talking to someone. I gave her the 'come here' finger. She came over and I said, 'make us some plates, Ill save you a seat here next to me'. she gave me the squinty look. I smiled. we sat next to each other

, and didnt talk much, I talked to others, but there was a lot of touching going on under the table. (no not that kind. get your mind out of the gutter.

) oh for the record she was no wilting violet susy homemaker type. We got perplexed looks from some of the family, but I acted like everything was normal, and she followed suit. she was obviously apprehensive at first, untill she knew how I was going to behave.

It will take some guts. If you collapse at the first sign of resistance, start apologizing, or get defensive ( ex. FINE! JUST forget it then!) youll shoot yourself in the foot. Like I said, if she doesnt, shrug it off. Its not about you. If its meet with true irritation, youll know that real quick. I find this very rare though. There are a hundred ways to lead, with confidance and assurance everyday. Especially when it comes to her and your kids.

F4
Sorry to hear that W did file. I won't reiterate what the others have proposed but I will say this.

It will get worse before it gets better. Your wife asked for your view of the sitch she has put you into. The next time she asks, you need to turn it around instead of answering and ask her what she thinks you would suggest....Since you've already said it, this will get her to think and not put you in the spot of "pushing" her, "controlling" her or "contradicting" her...

Keep up the hard work. She knows she is being the immature one here. You are correct that she needs to recommit to work on it as you can only do your 80%. Hang in there. I'll say the prayer you put on the old thread for you (and my marriage) each day.

Hope this weekend goes well for you.

F4W,

If you�ve kept up with my thread you may recall that I recently confronted my W about committing to the marriage. My reasons are basically the same as those listed in that article, plus the added reason that my W uses this back door escape hatch as a control weapon. If she doesn�t like something, she always reserves the option to bail out. She wants the ability to quickly run in any direction. To not have this option makes her feel like a trapped animal and her anxieties kick in.

But you are past that point now and so is she. I think you also do yourself harm by maintaining you loyalty to her even after you divorce. At one time my W thought we should just separate. Her idea was to convert the garage into living quarters so I could come and go as I pleased, see other women and be close to the kids too. I told her that sounded good to me but she would be the one living in the garage, not me. I was staying in my house and she could get out.

NOPkins commented to me that I should tell her that in the event of divorce I should not be her friend, and I believe that is the correct stance to take. If your objective is to save the marriage, divorce must be an extremely distasteful option. I told W that if we divorced, I had not intention of being her friend, nor did I even intend to be nice to her and only speak the minimum needed to coordinate with the kids. While I understood child custody is stacked against fathers, I would also fight to for as much of my rights as possible. All of this shook her world, I totally destroyed the little fantasy idea she had in her mind.

She was thrown back into dealing with the marriage and me, whether she liked it or not. And I did not care one bit whether she liked it. I only cared that she changed. Once we stepped up to the brink of divorce, she saw how scary it looked on the other side and chose to back down and find a way out of that mess. We have been moving forward ever since, with a few minor backslides along the way.

Unfortunately it may be too late for you to take this advice. Maybe you can tell her you have a change of heart and in your own interests you will fight her tooth and nail if the divorce proceeds and hate her with all you heart the rest of your life (or something like that). But if she will back off divorce, without any promise to commit to the marriage, and keep an open mind, then you will do all you can to change for her and make the marriage work. But be sure to listen to Blackfoot. Negotiate this from a position of strength, not begging. Lay out the terms and expectations, the roadmap, full disclosure, and ask her to do the same. The time for games is over and as soon as you find out she is bluffing or posturing, you call your lawyer and tell him to file. It is time for the both of you to grow up and get serious.

That is what I did. It worked for me and saved my marriage. See what might work for you. Hang in there!

F4W - you OK? Thinking of you

Hugs

Corri,

Sorry for the delay. I will try and fill in the blanks I may have left.

I have and always have done the bulk of the care of our children for the past 9 years of our marriage. In referance to assisatnce, my wife took over the bill paying because she did not like my method of paying bills promptly at the beginning of the month and then budgeting money to savings and having limits on other spending. I would offer to help do the laundry, but would be rebuked with the statement I shrink the laundry or it is fine I am capable. To her, according to her declaration, I only stepped in when asked.

As to the boundaries for the kids. Yes we spoke many times. I stated how wrong it was to allow the kids to play one against the other and to have decisions undermined by her. Her response is they are kids and need to have fun, I am too strict with them and need to let them be kids. Example would be trying to get my 10 and 7 yo to bed between 9 and 9:30 on school nights. She would often allow them to sit in our bedroom with her or lay in our bed after I told them it was time for bed and watch tv with her. When I would assert my reasons for a good night sleep and they are too young to go on 7 hours sleep, again I am too strict and it is not that big of a deal.

I am not sure that being with my wife is the bestthing for my children. She has a view of her childhood where her father and mother divorced and the two daughters ran the roost. They did whatever the wanted. Got into alcohol in Jr High, stayed out late, had parties at there house, got into drugs, with little or no boundaries from their mother. This is what I fear. She often makes the statement that our kids will have everything she did not. She has a busy work schedule and is planning on having the grandparents watch the kids or friends watch the kids when she has to work. Me, I have already cleared with my supervisors and flexible schedule that accomodates any needs my kids may have. Again the boundaries, the nutrition, etc are not acceptable that my wife does. I cook for the family. I try and balance the nutrition the best I can with the likes and dislikes of the boys. The week I left for our "trial separation" the boys had McDonalds 3 mights for dinner and McDonalds at least twice for breakfast. This was just one week!

I agree with the communication piece. I am trying to establish this with her and it is not being well recieved. Her latest comment to me was I have no right to know what her plans are with the kids. I even tried last night to broach the subject of how we can get off the current path we are on and find an amicable solution and custody. She said she has tried and it will not work. She is not moving from her latest position. That being 2K in child support plus 600 for daycare on top. As well as I encumber 60% of the current bills AND pay half the mortgage (1K) until house sells. This will leave me with 300.00 left net. FAIR?

Corri, I hope you can understand that my children mean the most in my life. That used to be held by my STBXW. I have ured my heart and soul into raising them. To have them ripped away and then in addition be gouged financially, just crushes me.

F4W

Purdy,

I get up in the morning and make my day as best I can. Thanks for checking up on me.

Update...

Things are sinking deeper in the pit. It is not real pleasant at home and it has no signs of getting better. I try and be cordial and upbeat only to be provoked and I do not bite.

The court date is set for the 5th of July and I am not liking having people trying to pick sides.

I have found out from the exGF (April) of my wifes EX BF than 13 years ago before we got married that my STBXW showed up at his door at midnight (while April was living there) in a raincoat and nothing else. She opened the coat and said to him, you can marry me or I will marry F4W!.

This has not been a real fun night nor day. I am on the rollercoaster and find it hard to believe that the last 13 years were in fact a lie. How many other acts of trechary and infidelity have gone on that I do not know of?

F4W (trying to just keep his head up)

F4W, while there are always 2 sides to any story, I have always had the feeling from reading the FACTS in your posts that you have been the better parent for your kids. I do hope the kids aren't the ones who lose in this case. Having said that, and looking back to my childhood when my parents divorced....my father was never a parent to his kids, and mostly ran from any responsibility. I was about 8 or 10 I guess, I don't even remember, my sisters were all older and were not available when he wanted to see us (smarter than little old me). But I would go with him on Sundays, to the bar where his girlfriend was, and I had a great time playing games and the jukebox and collecting candy bars and dimes from all the other patrons that talked about how cute I was. At the end of the day or night, my 'father' would drive me back home, after drinking all day, a 45 minute drive. I don't have a clue how my mom allowed that to happen multiple times, the danger I was in by being with him driving in his condition, but she always let me go. I see it as her strength, to let me go and form my own opinion of my father. She never interfered, she never talked down about him. Eventually, when my mom tried to collect child support, good old dad skipped the state and never did pay a dime. I think she only went after child support because she knew he wouldn't pay, but he wouldn't hang around either. Moms way of protecting me without having to go face to face with an unreasonable person. When I turned legal age, he moved back, in fact he lashed at me for the neighborhood I was currently living in, and then moved in on the same block, but he never made more contact with me while he lived so close. My reason for laying this all out here, kids need to have the choice, to grow up with both parents influence, and they will mature with their own opinions. It will take longer than you would like it to, but it will happen.

Raincoat - why would this story surface now? for what purpose? are these people who you call friends?

Keep your chin up, sit tall in the saddle, look to the horizon.

WCW,

Thanks you. I do not know why I shared the raincoat deal, other than I need to get it out somewhere and here is best b/c it has not effect in my real world. There are other things that are falling into olace that I forgot or just deemed not possible during our 13 years. Now I do not know.

Thanks for the support.

F4W

Corri,

No defense stance I hope. Maybe a little

I rarely need to keep notes lately, it seems that everything that goes on right now in my personal life seems to be very vivid, especially for the last 2 months. I can look at my calendar and almost recite the activities of the day.

My attorney is good, I feel. According to my wife and her attorney he is an idiot. The shizznit will hit the fan when I get home, I have had to call friends and her family requesting letters. I have asked them to be fair. If they would like to read her declaration I will provide it. I will provide my own for them to read also.

I have skeptical faith in the court system in Washington State. Although common sense would show that the CS is duely unfair and would place me in a bind.

I am trying so hard not to use the children as pawns, but in reality they are the ones whom I am most concerned about. I will survive, it will hurt tremndously, but I will survive.

I sit with my children and play with my children every day, it breaks my heart to think I would not be able to do this on a daily basis.

Thanks for the tips on the supplements. I have begun again the DB diet (D diet in my case now) and have dropped from a loose 36 to a loose 34 in the last 3 weeks. I force myself to eat but it comes only in minimal amounts.

I meet with my attorney today to finalize soem things. I am going to address the potential for joint custody and CS (60/40 seems very fair to me) and the need for payment of the bills. My salry gets reduced for the next 2 months because my duties are reduced seasonlly during the summer. Her plan is really unacceptble.

Again my wife is not neglegent, not an absent mother, but our children do need both of us, kind of a yin and yang thing.

F4W

Hey bucket,

it is me my friend. KTF. I have been watching over your sith for about a year now and have not replied to it. Just watching from the sidelines, but I feel as though now I should speak to you.

I hope you really really listen to everything I have to tell you man. It can really help your sitch right about now man.

First of all, a wise man always told me that the divorce is nothing but a piece of paper. That piece of paper does not change what you feel in your heart and you don't fully know what is in hers. So don't fear it. I know you are a very religious guy and know that "the laws of man" and "the laws of God" are totally different.

Secondly. I believe that you and your wife are going to get through this. She still has doubts. She still talks to you, but she is so angry. I remember when I was talking to my aunt about her divore from my uncle (they have been remarried for 10 plus years by the way) and how she described how much pain she had been in over the years and how that pain eventually turned into anger/resentment. It took her YEARS to get over all of those things and she said just the sight of my uncle made her angry. It brought back all of those feelings. (they have two children by the way.) So it's going to take time. That's all I can say man. Just pray about it. It's in God's hands. Let him work for you.

You have done alot man. you've been through so much, but remember all of this is a test of our faith. Marriage is a sacred institution ordained by God and the devil will do anything to destroy it. Have faith and trust in him my friend.

I have already been down the journey that you are traveling, but it gets better. Trust me.

I even jumped into a relationship right after the divorce to try to ease the pain, but all it did was complicate things even more.

The thing is exW and I have never stopped communicating. Heck I just sent her a reply to an email she sent me a reply.

She visits my place often and we have fun together. Mind you it's not all peaches and cream, but it's getting better.

You see I let her go, and she realized that she missed me. She dated. I dated. And we both realized that we missed each other. Sometimes you have to let something go (boomerang it) and let it come back to you.

I know you are hurting man. I hurt for a long time. Heck I still do. But I've gotten stronger. my whole sitch has changed me as a man. It's made a better father, christian, son, and friend.

I've worked on myself so much and alot of people have taken notice. They see the change in me. I see the change in myself. ANd it's that change that has attracted my exW back to me. (as well as a few other nice women lol)

The thing is man. I think you're still kind of crowding her. Everytime you say you love her, it guilts her into wanting to come back.

I did the same thing during my seperation. my exW came back because she loved me, but also because she had extreme guilt for what had happened. NOt because that was where she really wanted to be. She was intimate with me out of guilt (and having needs to).

But you're going to have to let her sort this out herself. I know it's going to hurt. I know you don't want it. But, she needs time to sort everything out. She may/may not be in an EA/PA but there's nothing you can do about it. She still has alot of pain inside and I think you do too.

I think you guys both need to heal. But I think you're on the right track.

You're a good father man. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Just keep on working hard, spending time with your kids, and letting wifey sort our her probs and you sort out/grieve and things will work out

your friend,

KTF.

Hey F4W, thinking of you.

(((Fighting4Wife)))...

Hope you are doing okay... When you are feeling up to it, let us all know how you are. Thinking of you, ((F4W))...
Your friend, OC Kim

(((F4W)))

Hey F4W-

ProdigalSon has some good advice. It even helped me view my sitch differently.

My thoughts and prayers are with you my friend!

((((F4W)))))))

God Bless,

Santhony

Just wanted to stop by.

Hang in there and God Bless

I claim the full victory that my Lord Jesus Christ won on the Cross for me. Having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross" (Col. 2:15) His victory for me is my victory.

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I renounce all the workings of Satan in my life in all its forms, whether brought into my life by my actions or by others. I break all attachments, ground, curses, spells, and rights Satan may have in my life whether such ground was gained through my actions or through others. Strengthened by the intercession of the Immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of Blessed Michael the Archangel, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and all the Saints and Angels of Heaven, and powerful in the holy authority of the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I ask you Lord to command Satan and all his minions, whomever they may be, to get out of my life and stay out. With that authority I now take back the ground in my life gained by Satan through my sins. I reclaim this ground and my life for Christ. I now dedicate myself to the Lord Jesus Christ; I belong to Him alone. Amen.

(((F4W))), I just wanted to say you are in my prayers.

Me too F4W - I think of you a lot and really hope you are OK.

Hugs

All of you....

I am sorry I have been absent for so long. I have been trying to regroup, trying to make sense and direction of my life during this time. There has been many nights of unending crying, raging, screaming and reflection.

I am healing, they are the same wounds from before only a bit deeper. I have made mistakes in this process and looked to various things and people to try and ease my pain. None of them will. Only I have the power to heal with the help of my God. This is his plan. God is not vengeful nor is he cruel. So I must place faith that something better lies ahead.

I enjoy my kids. They are now the primary issue before us. I seek as close to 50/50 as I can and she seeks to limit to 4 days in 14. This I will not agree to though I did in principle a week ago. After 3 hours of talkiung and bearing my soul, weeping uncontrollably in front of her, but not begging for us to be together, I wanted to ease her pain. But as I went ot sign the papers in my lawyers office, I relized that i will not be seeing my sons and being a father to them in 4 days. I recanted and re-proposed a 51/49 custody. I will not waiver. People think I am risking it all, that the courts may award less. Well that is not a gamble. I f what my STBXW says is true, and she would never keep my kids from me, than she should have no problem putting it in the court documents.

I am at home this weekednd and she is staying elsewhere and we will continue to switch until the house sells. It is lonely and sad at times even with my children.

I have new faith, THANK YOU STANDING BEAR! That prayer was timely and needed.

I will try and be here more frequently, I feel like being with old friends. Ones that care.

God Bless all.

F4W

F4W:

Stick to your guns and DO NOT BUDGE on the child issue. Period. Don't do it. If you are going to fight for joint custody, now is definitely the time to do it. Spare no expense and no tears over the issue. If you have to live next door to your wife in order for it to work after the D, so be it.

Once you sign the papers, give up your rights to your kids, and the D is done... there is virtually no going back.

Hang tough. No need to be mean, or angry or vengeful, just keep true in your heart that you WILL remain in your children's lives...

You are in my prayers.

Corri

Thanks Corri.

That is what I am going to do. Without going into much detail right now, I still think she checks here to see a stance or opinion, her first propsal I did not think all the way through and now that I have I informed her my tenetative settlement was no recinded. I have since countered with a proposal that places us near 50/50 (52 % for her and 48% for me) in regards to the kids. This of course may have an impact on the CS bit to me that issue is not as important as being a father "in my" kids lives not just a weekend dad.

She was PO'd and went on a rampage. But for me this is business, not emotional. If I did not seperate the emotional part of me, I would be dead in the water. As a business deal, I need to feel comfortable with the settlement.

It is hard, to see her cry and hear the things she says, bit these are MY kids also, and they need a dad also. This is taking it's toll on her health. She has issues now that may require surgery, possible gall bladder issues. But I believe it is most likely ulcer or similar due to the stress. It is amazing how the human body will react to distress and start to tell the concious mind, "HEY! Something is wrong"

Thanks again Corri, as I have stated before I do respect you opinion.

F4W

F4W:

I have to say up front that I never, ever, ever intended to keep the kids from their dad. I respect him as a father and a parent, and if there was one thing that we usually agreed on... it was the kids.

However. During the D proceedure... I have to say it was tough for me to go the 50/50 route... simply because I think that doing that never gives the kids a place to call their own. But. We took some time in doing the 50/50 split to see how the 'kids' would feel about it. Our entire D proceedure took nearly a year. For six months, we monitored the kids and each other... made sure everyone's tempers were in check, at least as far as the kids are concerned. We only live 1/2 mile apart. The kids have access to both of us, whenever THEY wish. They hate doing baskets (of their stuff). That still kills me. But in the end, it is better for their mental health, for they don't feel that one parent is getting more time than another. It gives them room to be kids, not caretakers of their parents. We also put them both in counseling, we taught them to express themselves, to either of us... and we respect their decisions on certain things. It gives them a much needed sense of power in their own lives. They are 13 and 11. We also had put into the divorce decree that if either he or I feel that we are not being 'heard' by the other on any given issue, that, by law, we have the power to haul the other into counseling (by counselors named by both of us), and the other must comply within 30 days. If not, we are in essence 'breaking the law.'

In the end, the kids decided they wanted to do the 50/50 split. In my mind... they need both of us. Period. Believe it or not, it is the only thing on which we can speak rationally, and we really listen to one another in regards to issues pertaining to the kids.

So. As to your quandry... STAY FIRM. During the D with me... my attorney said to me... "I need you to see this as a business negotiation. You can fall apart on me AFTER it is done. We'll get you any help you need. But during this process, no tears, no hysterics. This is business."

Fortunately for me, I'm a business woman. The whole process certainly took a toll on me, especially my stomache. But... I am not your typcial female, with your typcial life. I go into 'survivor mode,' and it's pretty fcking scarey.

Anyway. For you. Business. Best advice you can get. You can be her 'friend' after. You can be nice 'after.' Not that you need to be mean. You need to stay firm and keep you and your kids best interests at heart. It may reduce your CS amount, it may not reduce it is as much as you hope... I'm sure it will all depend on your discrepancy of income. That is why I was telling you to keep track of everything. If you can.

Divorce is tricky business. I don't like to see anyone end up on skid row, and I don't like to see people get screwed out of money they need to start a life, or live their life. What you consider fair and what the court considers fair is often a different thing. But remember. It's business. It's the law. And if you get your kids 50/50... hey. You're better off than most men.

Hang tough. Make sure to breath. Get out an exercise. You need it for your mental state and for the endorphins.

Corri

hey F4W here is some info that I think will help you with your case man. a few of the laws differ because of state laws, but the basic concepts are teh same. especially the "do" and "don't" checklists

http://www.fathers4kids.com/html/FathersRights.htm?article_id=32

Fathers for Equal Rights (FER) has compiled a list of those things your attorney should be working toward in your divorce or modification. Those items with an asterisk (* ) beside them are MUST-HAVE items. This is not to say that other considerations are not important, but gaining those with an asterisk by them is of utmost importance. WARNING: This is simply a checklist and does not cover all of the issues of your divorce or court action. For additional information and explanations, please obtain the FER Report on the subject covered. Call or come by our offices for further assistance.

Joint Managing Conservatorship. This means you will still be a �managing conservator� after the divorce. (See �153.131 of the Texas Family Code.) This is allowed even though she does not agree. Try to avoid the designation of a �primary residence� for the children, but if the Court is so inclined, ask that it be your residence.
Establish the county of residence (domicile) of the child(ren). Do not allow either parent to have the right to decide �domicile�. This can be written in simple language along the lines of, �The county of residence of the child of XXX county until altered by further order of the court.� This language is referred to repeatedly in the Family Code.
If you have �visitation� you must ask for the right to pick up the child(ren) at school on Friday and return them to school on Monday. This is your right under �153.317 of the Texas Family Code. If your job does not permit this, then you can choose to pick them up at day care or elsewhere after school school, their mother will be working also and will face the same problem. You should also have the right to pick them up at school on Wednesdays. You should try to gain the right to keep them overnight on Wednesday. Ask for the right to phone them at least 3 days a week: Specify the time and days. This is not provided for in the code but you have the right to request it.
Insist on �Pick-up , Pick-up� for exchanges that do not occur at school or day care. This simply means that you ho to her house to pick up the child(ren) when a neutral site is not possible and she comes to your house to retrieve them at the end of your possession period. Do NOT agree to pick the kids up at her house and return them there. �153.316(1)(3A).
If the court orders a social study, have your attorney ask that it be performed according to the minimum guidelines established by the Texas Department of Human Services (TDHS) Note: TDHS will not perform the study. They only set the standards.
Mediation should be a part of every divorce agreement, even if you do not receive joint managing conservatorship. The name of a specific mediation center should be incorporated into your petition/decree with the stipulation that the parties (you and your ex-) will try to solve differences there before litigating the matter. A mediation provision is a must where you and your ex- share responsibilities as allowed under a joint conservatorship agreement. Refer to �153.0071 and �102.0085 of the Family Code for specific language.
If you pay child support and have lost your job or are making less money than you were when the support amount was set by the court, you must IMMEDIATELY go to the Attorney General or your private attorney and ask that your order be modified to reflect your present ability to pay. Your old rate will continue until you do so and it cannot be adjusted retroactively. You may ask the court to establish and rearrange payment for any accrued support due obligee. Your local FER chapter can help you with this. Contact your local chapter immediately.
Before the Trial
DO THIS:

1. Admit to yourself that you have problem in obtaining a just divorce.

2. Close out joint accounts and cancel credit cards and charge accounts.

3. Make sure that your wife and her attorney cannot get your financial records, move them to the office.

4. Try for an out-of-court reasonable settlement.

5. Contact and join a Father Rights Organizations and ask their advice about choosing an attorney.

6. Determine what the lawyer fees will be before you hire him or her.

7. If you have children, make sure that they understand that you are not divorcing them.

8. Keeps a written record of all events pertinent to the divorce: Names, dates, etc.

9. Rent a P.O. box for all your mail that you want to keep private.

10. Ask yourself which parent would be best for the children.

11. Tone down your life-style during the divorce process.

12. Learn about your case and your judge so that you can ��help�� your lawyer do a better job for you in court.

DON�T DO THIS:

1. Move out of the house unless ordered to do so by the court.

2. Forget that you, too, have Constitutional rights.

3. Tell your children horror stories about your ex-spouse. There is no need to drag them through the muck.

4. Use your spouse attorney to save money. You will only hurt yourself.

5. Use a lawyer who is negative about your case and the opportunity for Fathers gaining custody.

6. Leave all of your friends behind and become a hermit.

7. Discuss any proposed settlement with your wife�s lawyer unless your lawyer is also present.

8. Avoid your children if you move out of the house.

9. Take your children with you unless you have planned in advance.

10. Rely solely upon psychologist or expert witnesses to win your case.

11. Buy a new car, boat, etc., or move in with a single woman.

12. Voluntarily pay for anything not in the court order. This will not win you any ��points��.

During the trial
DO THIS:

1. Attend ALL depositions, court sessions, etc. even if your attorney tells you there is no need to come.

2. Obtain and keep ALL originals with copies going to your lawyer.

3. Get specific Visitation, if you do not get custody.

4. Claim tax exemption on the children that you are supporting.

5. Keep tabs on your and your wife�s attorney fees and other costs.

6. Take a reasonable settlement at any point during the process.

7. Fight to keep the kids out of court and out of the middle.

DON�T DO THIS:

1. Sign any decree or waver unless and until you understand it fully and consult with your attorney.

2. Be afraid to change lawyers if your interests are not being met.

3. Panic if you lose temporary custody as is usually the fate of fathers.

4. Agree to alimony unless there are exceptional circumstances.

5. Agree to Child Support based solely on your income. You both owe support.

6. Agree to ALL medical bills without any strings attached.

7. Be neglectful of wills, trusts and insurance; change the benefactors, if you are not forbidden to by Court order.

After the Trial
DO THIS:

1. Fulfill your visitation rights and see your children regularly.

2. Obey the divorce order, even if your former spouse violates it.

3. Get specific Visitation, if you do not get custody.

4. Avoid your ex-spouse as much as possible; you cannot have her back.

5. Fight off sentimentality when dealing with your children.

DON�T DO THIS:

1. Review all the details of the decree with your children.

2. Be afraid to socialize, you are not a leper, you are just divorced.

3. Be overly possessive of your children, they need adjustment time.

4. Agonize over mistakes during the trial, forgive yourself.

5. Confront your ex-wife or in-laws, do come to a working understanding

Hey F4W,

Good to see you back. I will keep you in my prayers. I am beginning to look into the legal stuff myself - Bleh! It sucks - It sucks bigtime!!!

Hang in there. We are thinking about you and praying.

God Bless,

Santhony

PS, thank you for the info, I will correlate with Wa. State Laws.

SA, thank you for the prayers.

Update.

We are getting slong better. I have been getting better at seperating the D from my emotions and wishes. D = Business. Nothing more.

I have rolled the dice with a big wager. My S10 and I got back from a regional tournament for baseball. Wife layed down on bed for a minute before leving for the night. I sat close and rubbed her leg for a second. I said I would like to offer something to you. She said what.

What I have doen is offer to continue to sell the house and then take 6 months and see if we are not able to work our issues out in our marriage. That we would rent a house and and apartment = to our current mortgage. Continue to follow the schedule outlined and agreed to. But with the emphasis that we will work on us. Yes it is taking a step backward and looks exactly like seperation. She wanted to debate. She wanted to accuse. She wanted to talk about her hurt and my lack of trust in this process by asking for full disclosure of financial documents. I worked at validating. My offer was based on several revelations and dreams I have been having. God is speaking to me. He is saying to me do not quit, for it is my will at work and my plan.

I asked to talk when she wanted about this. She was not opposed. She made mention that she feels guilty and then remembers the horrible things I have done. These I do not know about except for those she has disclosed. But I see the conflict and the doubt in her. She made mention that a mutual friend is not a strong woman and that is why she has not D her H. I said D is not a sign of strength, it is actually a sign of weakness if it is not warranted, abuse, etc.

So She has left. I made it clear that this is not out of despereation, and I hope she knows that I am capable of going through with the D if she decides. I also stated again that the work it woul take to repair and recreate a positive marriage is minimal compared to the work and dedication it will take from both of us to make D work for our kids.

F4W

I have been getting better at seperating the D from my emotions and wishes. D = Business. Nothing more.

I'm working on this, too. Wish I was independently weathly so money wouldn't have to be an issue. It's hard to remain friends and talk about money!
Matilda

F4W - what a great post. Maybe this is the way forward for your and your W at last; I really hope so. IMHO it seems like a great opportunity for you both; as you so rightly say the turmoil of D (especially with K's) is so much more than the effort needed to make a M work. Perhaps now that your W has seen something of what D entails she will come to the right decision.

As you know, my H and I are separated, but I don't see this as a step towards losing the M - I see it as a step towards saving it. And you would not, in fact, be separated - you would just be releasing some of the pressure of financial decisions.

The fact that your W is thinking about your suggestion is very encouraging - I will be praying for you that she sees the wisdom in it.

Hello F4W-

I have said this very same thing to my W. That the baggage and problems associated with a D are far more reaching than the effort required to rebuild a M.

At least your W is willing to listen - keep an open mind.

I will continue to pray for you. I hope this works out.

God Bless,

Santhony

Well it has been forever and a day since I have posted. To many things have gone on and I will try to be brief in my update.

We are still splitting time in the house until it sells. It went on market on Sat. The kids are adjusting very well but I am not. I still cry each time I leave the house for my time away. Sometimes long sometimes short. The money will clear all of our debt and we will leave the marriage debt free. She has found and secured a rental house for hersef and kids and plays it up to them and gets them excited. I myself an waiting until the house sells before I make a decision on buying or renting.

We have had some knock down drag out fights over the past two weeks. I mean reall dousies and I have stayed firm and will not bend. Mostly to due with finacial information and money due to me. She has been diagnose with an ulcer and had a staff infection and some cancer spots removed from her face. Her medical bills are climbing. During our last fight she said she sees me in a different light now, one fixated on money and that, hold on to your chairs, not" very husbandly" in my actions. I immediately called her on this. I asked if I am her Husband. She sadi I was and we are just seperated right now. I was astonished. I broke down cryig to her, and stated that was something I thought I would never hear again. I did ask he to remind me if I am uncaring again.

Let me back up a bit. I had made a proposal for her to sell the house and all then enter into counseling. She has agreed to this. That 13 years were worth trying. I got her to agree we would not be dating during this time and that I would not be incompetition with another man (men). She blew a gasket and said that I am making this all about me. Well I simply replied that I am the repondent not the petitioner.

So in our last fight I stated very loudly and to the point that She can forget counseling, that I will call my attorney and get this D on the fast track. That I am not going to be blamed for the D and the havoc that it has caused. That I want out and is I am going to be portryed as an ass in public by her I will oblige. She changed her tune very quickly and we talked about being more cordial and nice, no matter what.

So that is that. We have set the temporary custody schedule and CS amounts. All that needs to be done is see the judge. We will be entering into couseling in Sept and I hope it can shed life on us both. She did make a statement about counseling how she hoped the counselor could tell her what she needs to do and show her how F'd up she is. This statement in itself shows me she has not reached the point where she can see her actions and the consequences.

I will try and update more often. I just try to hang day by day and with God's love and will I will be fine. For it is truly in his hands.

F4W

F4W - I don't want to get carried away here, but do you feel there is light at the end of the tunnel at last? You W responds with panic when you get stronger and she faces the reality of losing you - she still calls you her H; she says you are 'just separated'; she is willing to go to counselling; she recognises the value of your years together; she admits she has issues - and that she needs help in fixing them.

Only when you show insecurity (eg - competing with another man) does she get defensive and attack. When you show strength - which you are - she pulls closer.

I would resist rushing anything with her - just continue to be compassionate and give her time to sort herself out. She knows there is a problem; she is now suspecting it is not you, but her. But she is not ready to face up to fixing that just yet - however, she is making moves in the right direction.

Patience friend; and don't fear the separation. I have discovered for myself that space can be the real healer.

Ah Purdy, Thanks...you do see things I miss. Maybe it is the fog and cloud of this process, I do not look at it objectively.

Maybe a light but it is a very small light. I am skeptical and in truth, that light may be the opening of the tunnel OR it can be a train heading right for me.

I try not to read anything into her words or actions. I hope that time will heal this one way of another.

PS I am jealous of your trip.

F4W

Once again F4W - I am feeling exactly the same as you. My W is preparing to file and since I cannot work on my M - W sees D as the only option - this will be a financial battle. I suspect she will occuse me of trying to screw her financially because I know she has absolutely no clue how any of this works.

Hang in there. Your W wants only what she wants now. It is unfortunate - but it is reality. I too hope that time heals all wounds. I guess we have to keep the faith and hope for the best. In the mean time, we have to protect ourselves as well.

God Bless,

Santhony

F4
Hang in there. There is hope but quit trying to control (like the other man comment)... All you want is agreement on a plan of action with W - leave all of the peripherals alone.

She agreed to counseling - go start interviewing them now. She wants to sell the house - it is moving forward ... just leave it alone.

No more fights - just give her the details and let her chew on them. She needs to realize that she need to make decisions now and cannot depend on you for this.

Best regards

Well it seems that I need somewhere to vent.

Not sure who or anyone will read this after falling off the board and trying to put it all together.

We had or first counseling session yesterday with a counselor that I like and believe in, just a gut feeling. She is honest and insightful and does not pull punches.

Spent the first 40 minutes recapping all that has occured in last 6 months and also two years. She asked some very direct questions and did a lot of listening. Asked about our beginning and how we met and knew we loved each other and reasons for getting married. It was very emotional for me. The stories aligned somewhat although my recolection of good times was greater. She acknowledged that I am a person that feels comfortable being vulnerable with my W. She then asked if my W was ever vulnerable with me. She replied no, she never was and never has been. She always felt she had to take care of the men in her relationships and the relationships. C found that very interesting. Overall the first 40 minutes were civil. Then came the final minutes.

Wife started about my constantly emailing and texting, asking where we were and what we are going to do. Saying I have put her through hell the past 2 months since she filed. Accusing her of hiding money and things of that nature. As the counselor started to tell her she was no longer interested in the past few months but about the future I interupted and said I had to make a comment. What I said was this" Wife, I see I need to be honest and break a promise I made. I made a vow to a person never to tell what I am going to relate. The reason I was so inquisitive and looking for things was your sister informed me that you told her that you had been taking money out of our account in preparation for the D. My love and marriage is more important than my promise to your sister." This set her in a frenzy. Shaking, crying, almost seizure like. She was screaming at me that I am puttingh er over the edge, that she cannot stand to be in the same room as me. That she never said that to her sister. The counselor intervened and said "Mrs. F4W, cannot you see what you H just did? He broke a promise because he felt you needed to know. He is being real and vulnerable with you. What is causing your reaction?" Wife had no response. C started in that she believes that my wife has never been vulnerable with man in a relationship. That she is suppressing the real reason for her reaction and deflecting it twords me as being the bad guy. Wife continued in her tirade. Counselor closed the session with homework. That we had to spend 30 minutes together alone, and talk about anything but our relationship. Wife said she could not. That she cannot do it. C asked if 10 minutes was doable. She agreed reluctantly. So we are doing Coffee on Friday. The C is adamnet that we start to be relaxed and understand each other again.

She also stated that by my wife's reaction she was disappointed and asked my wife if she was really here for the marriage or if she was here to end the marriage, my wife answered she did not know.

So I have agreed to not talk to my wife about anything but the kids. It seems as if the path is set, I hope there is a miracle in the future.

F4W

Hey F4W, nice to hear from you. I've often wondered how you are. Venting is good, we've always known this is a good place to do it. ((F4W))

F4W - it is good to hear from you again, even if I am saddened that you are still under such tremendous pressure. However - your W IS going to C (even if she is not entirely sure of how to get the best from it) and you have some good clues here from her emotional reaction to any level of 'pressure.'

IMHO, she is NOT ready to discuss her feelings, your M in too much depth; you are far more emotionally ready for that than she is. So perhaps you could go back to her pace and give her time to feel comfortable with you again.

Maybe even talking about the K's is too inflamatory - after all they are part of the 'R' and it might be impossible to talk about them without your W feeling guilt - which will just make her angry again.

If you have 10 minutes together on Friday, could you just make it fun? Or relaxed? Maybe start by saying '(Wife) I appreciate you letting me know your true feelings in the C session and I promise I have taken your comments on board. Instead of beating ourselves up more, why don't we just have a break and enjoy this next 10 minutes as friends. Let's agree not to talk about the K's or our R - let's just have a coffee and chat.'

Let her go away from that 10 minutes feeling uplifted in some way. Compliment her (not too much - just 'you look really well' or 'that's a great outfit BTW'), talk about politics, sports, her job, the other people in the cafe - ANYTHING but the 2 of you.

If your W can go away from your coffee feeling that she has had a nice, relaxing 10 minutes with a good friend - chances are she will want to do it again.

Slowly does it F4W - I am rooting (as always) for you!

Bro,

Good to see you are still in there fighting. I know it's difficult. You are a special man for what you are doing for your W and family.

I can't add much to the great advice you have already gotten. I just want to emphasize that you MUST refrain from the R talk and stay focused and detach. W will be looking to validate her actions and reasons by your reactions. She will bate you consciously and unconsciously into proving her case that YOU cannot and will not change. I've been there. XW still talks about things that I know are not true. She is doing all she can to still reinforce her decision. You just have to let go. Don't fight it...You can't. Unless you have video evidence she will never believe you. I don't doubt that she told her sister about hiding the money but in her state she will truly believe that is not true. I had my share of conversations that never took place or things that she never said to friends or family.

I'll also pray for you Bro. This has been one long journey and a great test of faith for you. As I wrote above...You ARE a special man.

Hello Again,

Your sitch reminds me of the 3rd MC my W and I visited. This was a "Christian" MC, and so I thought that his religious background would at least give my "doomed" M (which, at the time, it was) a fighting chance. Boy, was I wrong! During our 2nd session, I got "side swapped". The MC proclaimed our M DOA. I remember how pathetic I became during, and - especially - after that session.

To make my long story short, my W eventually filed for D. I kinda got my act together, applied the LRT and other principles, and was able to Bust my D. However, eventually, my M got into trouble again. I realize now that the LRT and other "principles", at least in my experience, cannot be maintained indefinitely. But then I came across this other source of info, which was recommended by another DB member (I can't recall his name). Anyhow, that website, including their e-book and free newsletters, have put my M in the right direction - for the 1st time in years.

I'll share some a couple of their writings:

We get in a rut, we spend years seeking a woman's approval, or looking to her to feed our self-esteem, when we should be looking to ourselves. She probably has none of her own, or none to spare. We mistakenly think that things get stale and boring because that's the way they are supposed to be, and that's the price we pay for sex, and then the sex stops, too, but we look at the calendar and think that we're better off putting up with it than to give up half or more of everything we've earned and a big chunk of our future earnings to get out of it and have a life.

Unless we are with some kind of parasite or predator, or someone with whom we are grossly mismatched and never should have married, life doesn't have to be like that at all. The truth is that she probably got bored at the same time we did, or even before, if she's like most women, and would love for things to be fun and exciting again. Women don't like crises that cause major changes in their life (like divorce!) any more than we do. What does it take?

It doesn't take much at all! It takes knowing whether you have the foundation for a good relationship. It takes knowing how you and your wife differ as man and woman, and using those differences to enhance your relationship instead of allowing them to remain points of contention, competition, and frustration.

It takes learning three simple rules that govern all communication with a woman, and using them to hear things she's been telling you for years that you never knew you were being told. It takes shedding the "nice guy" programming that you're drowning in, and getting back to being the "real guy" that your Y-chromosome has set you up to be, strong, competent, fun, and feeling good about yourself, and not some unattractive, unappealing wuss.

Chicks dig real men, alpha males, who know what they want, and walk through the world earning it, knowing that they deserve it, and holding their head high as they do so, eyes fixed on either their next achievement or their partner's sexy self. Good things come their way because they're worthy of good things, not because they can coerce people (including making them feel guilty) into providing them.

(((Fighting4Wife)))...

I know how much you love it when your own words come back to haunt you. So, here goes... I remember a good friend of mine telling me once that our pains and sorrows are a part of us. It is our right to feel and have emotions over our losses and events that cause us pain. I want to remind that friend of that right now. F4W, that is not struggling... That is LIFE. It is what will help us in this difficult process. You know this more than the rest.

As you often do, I will use an analogy here... What you are going through reminds me of a newborn baby animal... It is as if you are trying to learn how to walk... It can be a little awkward... you stumble a little bit.... And, the everyday things you would do with your wife, you don't always do anymore. It can be a scary feeling because it is uncharted territory. But, at the same time... it is forcing you to re-discover yourself and take it to another level. F4W, this is you. You have grown so much and you continue to grow on a daily basis.

I am filled with such admiration for the way you have handled this difficult time in your life. I know that there were many times that I thanked God that you were in my life during my seperation/divorce. Your friendship and positive outlook on life kept me going. You reminded me that it is alright to hurt, to be angry, and to forgive myself, and for that I will be forever grateful.

F4W... my thoughts go with you, as well as my prayers. I hope each day brings a reminder of who you are now and I truly hope there will be happier times ahead for you.

Thank you again for being such a good friend. In case I have not said it in a while... You are the best!

Thinking of you, ~OC Kim

2ndChance:

Got a web address for that site?

Thanks,

Corri

Hello Corri,

I don't know how to link the site, nor am I sure whether it is allowed by this forum. However, if you post your e-mail, I'll forward you one of their newsletters.

WOW! I am humbled. Truly. I have been away for so long yet my friends still are here supporting me. THANK YOU ALL!!!!

So much great advice. All of you. I would like to take time and make individual replies, but I feel an update will bring you all up to speed.

Coffee was fine, nothing major, all about the kids schedules. I tried to turn it to other topics, just general, no go. She stuck to what the counselor offered. I said she looked wonderful as we parted ways. She said thank you.

We went to second session yesterday. It was a barnburner. Let me preface that I had PO'd my wife on Sunday by asking her to have dinner, if she was open to it with me and the boys. This was answered with a no, she was gong to SIL. I made a flirtatious comment about a visit after that, in jest. That sent her over the deep end but agreed to call me back later in the night and talk about us. No call!

So in counseling the C started with me. She asked what I wanted to come from this session, I said really nothing. I have come to the conclusion that I am unable to hold onto her or this marriage anymore, I looked at my W and said you are free from me and this marriage. The C looked right at her and said "Mrs. F4W" your husband is saying he cannot do this anymore and you are free to end this marriage, what is it you want to do?" W answered she did not know. W started in on the topic of my style and commnunication needs. We had a briefly heated discussion and I stated "W you would be just happy if I never communicatied with you again unless it was about kids schedules" To this she agreed, C made her phrase it to me and look me in the eyes 3 times until she got it right. We did a projection excercise and my wife came up with projecting her disappointment with me early in our marriage by emabrrassing her in public. I recall the event and apologized. My projection was my diappointment in her not respecting my feelings and integrity and continually breaking her word to me. I broke down and started to cry. I was at that point very vulnerable and being honest. C quickly asked W what she was feeling at this time. She broke down crying. Saying she hated to see me in such pain, that she feels bad for creating this but really is just numb, cannot find love for anything. C kept going, she stated that since W was so unsure about herself, her emotions, could not definitively say whether she did or did not love me, that she should enter into IC and work on fixing herself. W agreed. C went on to say that in her opinion, W needed to seriously rethink the D, that if she can fix herself, then she should at that time re-invest in me and the marriage, that 15 years of investment is too much to throw away. Wife said nothing, but continued to cry.

C turned to me, said "F4W, you have a decision to make, your W is not ready to continue this M, you have to live each day making a decision. That decision is will you stay and wait or will you move on. This is your decision only. You cannot base this on her or her issues. What will you do?" I looked at my W, and I said "There is nothing I have said or worte in the past year about my feelings that is not true. You are the one for me. You are the woman I love beyond anything else. I will wait, for a while. I do fear that by letting you go I will eventually have to look in the mirror one day and tell myself "You cannot love her anymore" and that scares the hell out of me."

C picked up from there and said both of you need IC, W to do deep counseling to find our why she shys away from being vulnerable, and without being vulnerable she will never be able to have an intimate relationship with me or anyone else. That the pattern she has developed will never cease. To me she said I need support C to deal with my pain and sadness. We agreed. She said I will see you in 2 weeks.

I have not spoken to W in two days. I had to call today because of my time with kids starts today. It was fine. She had called 4 times on my cell yesterday but I never answered. I cannot right now. I am unsure and scared. I am doing fine. I do feel like I have now amputated a diseased part of my body and am looking at the wound. But I know that I have to let go and continue my journey alone, for the moment.

Again to all SA, DER, OC, Purdy, 2nd, and Corri, thanks, I love you all!

F4W

I so forgot Fearless! I am sorry Sweetie!

Fearless is GREAT!

F4W,
That�s okay. I figured either you thought my advice sucked OR you just forgot me. Either was okay because I�m not too sensitive about stuff like that

However I do appreciate you taking the time to add me

I think your counselor has some good ideas. I would be encouraged that you gave your wife an opening to call things over in front of the counselor (safe place in case she feels you will be too emotional) and she couldn�t do it. And if your wife is willing to go the IC route, I think there is some real hope!! Now you can back off and truly work on F4W. Are you still running, golfing, GALing??

You need to work on yourself and be strong because I think she will be going through some rough times in IC and if (when?) she is ready and willing to be vulnerable, you�ll need to be her rock!

Take care

Ha. I never think you advice sucks and I truly did feel bad about forgeting you!

Sound advice again. I do not kknow how many days it has been since counseling, I try not to count anymore, but I still do not feel right. By that there is something picking at me that I cannot identify, like it is on the edge of my conciouness and I cannot quite get it. It does cause me not to sleep very much and when I do my dreams are vivid recollections of times with my wife.

I am just gettiung back into running, I had a terrible torn hamstring july of 05 and when I started in the spring of 06 to run again, this happened. Not much time to golf between work on kids (excuse I know) and GAL is fine. Actually looking for a new hobby to start. Thinking of painting, martial arts, or dance classes. SOmething with flexible and minimal time comittment and not really espensive.

The if and when are things that will be addressed in time. I think the odds are against it, I loive my wife but she is incapable of doing what it will take to face whatever it is in her that cause her to run when she needs to open up. It is her pattern, I hope she can break it, but I know 39 years of a learned behavior is hard to break.

F4W

Hey FW4,

Just dropping by to say hello and let you know I am thinking about you.

I have to constantly remind myself how important it is to shape our lives the way we want. Our Ws are so focused on the D that it consumes them. Anytime they think of us - they think of us as in their way and against the D. So it would only be natural that our Ws think of us negatively now - we stand in their way to freedom.

It is not logical, it is not fair, it is not right. But it is where they are at right now.

I pray that we LBSs continue to move forward and that our WASs realize what they are doing and wake up from the destruction they are creating.

Hang in there my friend!

God Bless,

Santhony

WOW, it seems like the old club is here. DER, Truly, F4W, Fearless, Purdy.
Hi Folks, F4W sorry to still see you here pal. Our sitch. have been neck to neck the whole time. The 12th of this month is 1.5 years for me.
I hate to say it's good to see you all, but honestly I feel somewhat normal and supported when I come here and understand once again that we are all not alone although it truly feels that way some days.

I am really sorry that your MC session went the way it has, but it seems like you have hit it right on the head when you said:
I think the odds are against it, I love my wife but she is incapable of doing what it will take to face whatever it is in her that causes her to run when she needs to open up. It is her pattern, I hope she can break it, but I know 39 years of a learned behavior is hard to break.

I know this feeling to well. I know with all of my heart that I love the woman I married, I know I am sorry for the mistakes I made, I know that it was not ALL MY FAULT.

My EX (wow that still is tough) still cannot learn to forgive me or herself. She still is controlling and pushes the guilt trips; she still wants to see OM as friends and wants me around when she wants it. There is no real R between us, has not been any ML in --- wow I can�t remember, I think before Christmas last year.

Your statements about being scared to admit or come to the point of not loving here are completely understood.

There are days I wish I would never love my WAW again, and there I days I still break down and want to hold her. When we are close it hurts because she has told me she has no desire for me in any way but she still loves me but not in love with me. It is hard to believe the person you spent half your life with can�t and won�t hold you.

But you are correct, they want us to change, yet they see no reason to break their own habits and do not recognize the damage that their behavior does.

There is a song out right now by the �wreckers� called �leave the pieces� and it goes:
You're not sure that you love me, But you're not sure enough to let me go.
Baby it ain't fair, You know you just keep me hanging round.
You say you don't wanna hurt me, Don't wanna see my tears.
So why are you still standing here Just watching me drown?

I realized with the support of a lot of people here and a ton of wacks to the head with a board that this is true. Your statement is true. They will not change. She said she hates to see the pain your in, yet she holds the key to relieving that pain. She knows this yet will not do anything about it.

F4W you love your wife as I do mine, I will always love her and honestly would do anything that would make her happy. I spent the last 3 months playing her game. I did not question anything, I worked on her new home remodeling it, I took care of the yard, I cooked, I cleaned, I did her laundry and the kids too at her home - all while doing my own at my home.
During this time I never brought up OM, and yes he is still around. I ignored the calls, bit my lips and said nothing, worked my ass of, honestly did brick work till my fingers bled.

Know what I got? First fight we had, she went to him. She would not even give me a kiss good night; I have had better hugs from my dog, and never ever any warmth.

I talked with her and tried to ask (2 months into it) �How are we doing in your eyes�. She freaked, said I was pressuring her and she couldn�t handle it. I explained that I was asking because I cared about her feelings. She told me I should be able to see by her actions (what actions?). I explained to her that I was trying to be a better man; I realized we both spoke different languages and that I was just trying to learn to communicate with her better. Her response � she was uncomfortable with this, felt like it was an advance and was putting to much pressure on her. If I wanted it to work I needed to back off and give her more space. It was ok if I came over and worked on her house, but she would like me to leave when she got home so she could relax and not feel pressured. I should understand this. Also that my pressure was not helping her forgive things like the comment I made 13 years ago one night at dinner when I was kidding around and �HUMILIATED� her in front of everyone.

You wrote: By that there is something picking at me that I cannot identify, like it is on the edge of my conciouness and I cannot quite get it. It does cause me not to sleep very much and when I do my dreams are vivid recollections of times with my wife.

This picking at you is called love, it is also the guilt she has bestowed upon you. No matter what you will always and forever love the woman you fell in love with, I know this feeling too.
Try to remember this, you never gave up. You did not quit, by telling her you could not go on this way, you acknowledged her feelings as well. That is why you were there at MC, YOU CAN NOT CONTINUE THIS. You really need to sleep, live, smile, and try.

Take the advice the MC is giving you and so many gave me, at this point let her deal with her issues. Amazingly enough they find out that leaving did not solve these issues, it did not get better, and they are still depressed. Until she faces the fact that she is not happy with herself, she will never be with you. You cannot change that, neither can the MC, she needs 1 on 1 C. And you do too, it�s not a bad thing and your not a bad guy, you�re here trying to fix what you thought went wrong. Where is she?

Hang in there friend�.

Got a better song clip from Big head Todd and the Monsters:

"Our love was once a flame
now I'm just a forgotten name"

from Broken-hearted Saviour

{{F4W}}, just checking in.

Well, not a ton to report. Still in limbo. No final decrees filed and the initial one is still active. Best way to describe it is seprated with divorce papers in the courts waiting to be signed.

It has been 2 weeks since I have said 3 words to her. We had a disagreement over everything including her reniging on her promise to do 6 sessions with MC and start IC. I have been 3 times to IC, not much help, but good to have some ears listen. House has not sold (3 months now, 2 on market) and she wants to lower price again, I said absolutley not, we have gone down 11 K and with the 17 K we will owe realtor I will not budge. We are already at the lowest part of the Market value.

I continue to pay 70 % of all our joint bills and mortage as she continues to run up her CC and open new accounts to move on with her life. She complains about having top borrow money from her father to pay her 1200 rent. Oh Well!

Trying to move forward and focus on kids. I am trying to GAL but find it difficult finacially and little time. Hardest damn thing I have had to go through by far.

Oh well. Weekend coming

F4W

Hey F4W,

Sounds like we continue to share the same boat!

I am paying for everything and if I say a word about it - I get threatened and spewed on.

Hang in there. We can row this boat together for a while. I wish you had better news to report. I wish your W would come around.

Just thinking about you.

God Bless,

Santhony

F4W

Just thinking about you pal, hope your doing well.
Chris

F4W - I think about you often and pray you are finding happiness. And you are so right - this is the hardest thing... Hugs to you friend

I think of you also Purdy as I do of all my friends here.

Still in limbo and I have been dark from her for weeks. The RC goes up and down and dealing with a cold. LOL Life is great!

F4W

Well a month of silence is about enough I think.

Not sure who is left to read or respind but I hope a few of my friends are still here (maybe not I hope they have been able to move on)

Where to start...well I reached my limitations of my patience and have asked for everything to be done by the ned of this year. I do not want another year to start with the same baggage. This was met with very little resistance and evrything has gone so smnoothly. She has agreed to all of my terms and we have been very civil about the whole thing. The ironic portion of this is this is how we used to be. We could talk and reason. I often find myself slipping back and feeling a great deal of remorse and saddness, which tells me I am not fully healed and still have a tremendous amount of feelings for my wife. Thorugh all of the bitterness and verbal venom she has spewed over the last 6 months, I still look on her with soft eyes and warm feelings in my heart and it tears me apart to see the finality of 15 years together come to such a end. I aksed a few weeks ago if she is still set on D as the final sloution, she responded "do you really think we can work this out, after all that has gone on?" I simply said yes, but that will be my eventual downfall, I forgive an trust to quickly.

So all is amicable and I may even be able to purchase a house that is suitable for my children. My house just sold 2 weeks ago and I have 30 days to find a new one. Tight but it was a hurdle that needed cleared and I have faith in God he will not put me on the streets and if he does than it is for a purpose I am yet to understand and not question.

I have found a renewed sense of myself and even my STBX has commented how I am strong and a different man. In reality I am what I once was and need to remember not to lose that man again.

Well that is the update. Still getting a D and still helplessly in love with my wife. But I will survive and prosper.

F4W

Hey F4W I'm still here too buddy, your not alone.

I wish I could actually convey how well I understand what your feeling. People ask me how can I still love my ex after all she has done. I guess thats love.

I don't have any real advice, but I can tell you that I am happy to hear your are strong and well. You have made changes for yourself and others are noticeing too.

Stay the path, it seems like they want to feel they are in control and everything needs to be their idea, if it is not as my ex told me "she is giving in". Do what you need to do, but she is seeing the changes and seeing you for whom you are now.

I am the same as you, I allow my faith to help me and I forgive to fast becouse I see no reason for hate or anger. This doesn't mean I don't get angry but I do not live my life full of painfull past events. I have choosen to forgive my ex for her actions and I have asked for forgivness for mine.

After 19 months seperated, 6 months divorced my ex has finally come back becouse of the fact that I started living my own life, she has run her course with OM and a new GF brought up some issues to

.

But most of all, you are not alone, your are strong and well, and you have friends.

Want a good laugh, take a look at my last post, a whole new sitch.. How did we get here?

Chris.......
Click here > break in

((((((F4W))))))

I am so sorry. I think you are doing the right thing for yourself. You've made it clear to your W that you believe the marriage could work. So now you can concentrate on being strong and taking care of yourself and your sons. Your W still could change her mind but that's up to her and as we've learned we cannot force our spouses to act the way we want them to!!

Good Luck!!!!

Fearless

Thanks Chris and Fearless...

As I wake every morning I see myself as the man I used to be. I am not the things my wife has accused me of (no angel either mind you!) and I like that feeling.

As you Chris, dating is a scary prospect and the challenge I have is not to be so quick to assess and evaluate, but it is SCARY out there. Way too many people going to fast and too hard, like there is shame in just being friends who can enjoy each other.

Fearless, thanks sweetie! I trust you and value your opinions. How are things on your end?

Need to settle on a house to buy by tomorrow UGH! Another independent decision, scary but way cool I am doing it by myelf at the same time!

Well I better get my sorry butt to work. cold here 18 degrees and 4 inches of snow on the ground

Hey Bro, I'm still here too. I'm sorry to see another family torn but I know you will do all you can to give your sons a good home and be a great example of a true man.

Just remember STBXW will always be in your life for a long time as a co-parent. It's good that you two can talk and be cordial. I'm still working through resentment that I may never fully want to get over.

Take care and keep us posted. I won't speak for fearless but will say that things are going well. When the time is right your will find there is someone wonderful out there for you.

Helloooooooooooo!!!! Anyone Still Home?

OMG where do I start? Self imposed exile is now over I guess. Can this be right? I registered here on Feb 24 of 05 and this is now August 14 of 07. Cannot even do the math.

Something urged me to post again, just to update to my friends here. Some are still here and posting away, soem are gone but NEVER FORGOTTEN!!

Well D went Final of January of this year. Words cannot describe the pain and raw emotion that went with all of it. I was the one to go to court and make the declaration on the stand, I remember the eternity it took to choke out the answer "Yes" to the my attorney's question if the marriage was broken beyond repair. But from that moment on life has gotten better.

I guess part of this post is to revalidate what many before have stated, there is life after divorce and the huge plus is we get to truly rebuild the persons we were before.

I have refound myself and the strength inside to do anything in life. I have purchased a new home, am becoming a better father to my 3 boys, my work is better, life is good. I was reforged I guess through this process.

For us that are left behind, we have are able to grow and become a better stronger person. This happens when we realize WE are not responsible nor did we create the situation we were (are) in and cannot make decisions for otehr people.

As too my ex, the grass was not as green. Her 2nd affair, the one which was the one she felt compelled to file so she could be with, is now in rehab for alcoholism. Was highly abusive, verbally to her and was popped for DUI of 2.7. I feel sadness in my heart and concern for her and my boys. Amazing enough, during this time, she has become increasingly depressed and her friends are trying to intervene but who was it she sought for support? You guessed it, me! The guy who she could not stand to be around nor share her life with. I have done my best to be supportive but from a WHOLE different angle and mindset. There is caring there from me but as a friend to a friend. I find it very ironic. From a close friend of hers whom I got a call from, she regrets fully her decision. Go figure.

I have moved on. Dating was very difficult and very odd. Many crazies out there. I have found a very nice woman that I have been seeing for about 3 months now. She is wonderful. It has been a slow process and a LD relationship (3 Hours away) but we have been able to make it work. The distance has been a benfit as well as a bane. It has allowed us to build our relationship on talking and communication. Something I have really grown to cherish.

Well so much for all that. A short update turned into a novel. For those friends who stumble across this, please say hello. For those who are here and do not know me, it does get better! Remember...This too shall pass!

F4W

F4W, good to get an update and especially good that most of it shows you are good. Still wearing Wranglers? $;\)$

F4W, glad to read your update and so happy to hear that you are doing well.

(((((F4W)))))

I can't believe I missed your update. Raven and I have wondered how you have been.

I am so sorry that your marriage ended but I am glad you are doing well and being a great father to your kids!!!

Drop Raven an e-mail if you have the time and inclination $\:\)$

You are a success story!!

Hello F4W,

It's good to hear from you. Sorry that your D became official; but I'm glad that you're doing alright. I wish you and your boys nothing but the best. Keep posting your growth and adventures.

2ndchance

Hi F4W

So glad to hear from you my friend and know you are OK. I have been away from the forum to try to focus on rebuilding my life when I realised my H was truly heading down a different road. My life, too, is getting better - it has been a slow and painful process but I no longer want to go back to the person I was in the last years of my M. My ex is also struggling, but that is his issue now; I am there if he needs me, although for how long I don't know.

You were a true and trusted support to me throughout the worst months of my life and I am so grateful that you were there. I wish you all the happiness that you deserve - and I can see that you are going to be fine. I still think of you often and am glad to have another chance to thank you for all you did for me.

Have a great life F4W!

Hi Purdy,
I think of you often and how you helped me through the early days. Let me know how you are doing either via my thread 'Two and a half days of freedom' in MLC forum or if you still have my contact details you can use those. My home email is not brilliant right now so that might not be the best way to contact me.

Thread locked so actually my current thread is now 'booked to see a new L' in the same forum.

F4W,

I just saw this. I am on the D road as well, so I am happy to read this positive post.

I am so glad that you are doing well. I know how hard you tried to make your M work, and how much you struggled to let go.

How wonderful that you are becoming/have become the man that you were meant to be, a man that you and your children can be proud of. And I'm delighted to hear about your lady friend.

I wish you all the best in your new life.

~Nicola

Well it is good to hear from all of you on here. Some of my friends that bore my burdens with me and made me come through. Well distance became too much for my gal...BUT the end was easier from the growth that I had. Sad but true. You start to learn that the brief happiness you share with someone outweighs the end of it. I post that I guess to reaffirm to all of us the we are human and need to continue to grow and love.

Nic sorry about the turn of events.....YOU WILL SURVIVE! Where is your thread.

Fearless... I need to email Raven! My bro of bros! You and he are so lucky and I have nothing but best wishes and prayers for you!

Purdy.... My gal from across the pond. Believe it or not... you are my ispiration in so many ways! Everything I ever wrote about you is true and my belief! Do not be a stranger.

2nd Chance....Keep up the good fight and never believe you are less than the person you are

Always remember who we are and what we can be.....nothing but the best!

Love you all!

F4W

Fighting4Wife...

I haven't been on the boards in quite some time... I happened to come across your most recent post and wanted to say "hello".

Time really does heal... You sound great which you truly deserve... I am happy to hear you are doing well.

You were always so supportive of me during my S/D and for that I am very grateful.

Take care,
~Kim

OMG Kim tastic! Kim the great! Kimalicious! LOL Oh I so am happy to hear from you! I hope everything is going great for you! Yes time does heal though never fully. I will always be supportive of you! Know that!

F4W

Hello F4W,

Good to hear from you. I have been away for awhile myself. D was final for me in May 07.

Your sitch helped me a bunch and while I find myself still D, I don't feel like I would be in the nice place I am in today if I didn't find this site and wonderful people like you.

Quote:

You start to learn that the brief happiness you share with someone outweighs the end of it. I post that I guess to reaffirm to all of us the we are human and need to continue to grow and love.

Very wise indeed. As I have found in my own journey, we achieve the greatest happiness when we experience growth in areas of our lives. Sad that many of our XWs or XHs didn't realize that this could have been achieved within the M.

I am glad you are doing well. Take care of yourself.

God Bless,

Santhony