Any hope after divorce??? - DivorceBusting.com

Sage,

Thanks as always for your comments. I'll try my best to answer...

Quote:

So, can you view this as w possibly waving the white flag that your "kind of dark" approach is too much for her to comfortably handle

My dark to this point hasn't even been grey. But thinking back specifically.....time with all the changes, no ring, and OW....that was the worst threat. Then time I went out of town and she read my thread then talked about it...felt it was "leading me on". Then again right before leaving for her trip after a couple days of more or less silence...then yesterday after going away for the weekend again (another swim meet) with little contact, but a few calls. Those times have never been very dark. More like one day max without any talk. But some abbreviated talks.

Quote:

What would it take to make this happen? Can you start out by encouraging w to talk about "the dream" (her OWN dream?) even more? Ask her "what kind of law intrigues you?" or something of that ilk.

I wish I had remembered this tonight. I do know you wrote this but I kept it more along the lines of what do you need to do to start getting ready for law school. WHen is the LSAT? We did have a little discussion of that tonight. I could ask her but I know what it would take....moving to the closest school 300 miles away. Then I would have the choice of meeting her on weekends (if she wanted me to) or attempting to move there...but giving up a really good partnership and moving away from my kids. She will know this. I'd do the distance thing for 4 or 5 years if we had a good marriage. I don't know under the circumstances that I can honestly risk moving away for my WAW.

Last stuff before I update....

Quote:

1. one goal to bring about positive interactions in the here and now

2. one goal to specifically address an issue in the m

3. one goal for me -- my learning, my pma

1. One goal for here and now. I will show her that I can be her friend without pressure. When I'm doing that I will have conversations where I focus on what is going on in her life and her interests. I will listen attentively. I will not bring up the issues of our marriage. I will be happy and smiling while around her. I will not read friendliness in return as anything other than she is my friend. No attempts to initiate physical contact. How's that for action oriented? Sound okay?

2. One goal to specifically address an issue in the marriage: I have already started and continue to work on my treatment of S-kids and on my anger. There has not been an angry outburst to anyone except the dog in at least a month, probably more. So new issue: No negative comments disquised as jokes...ie no "you're evil"..."you are a cruel individual", or whatever. When I am not doing this I will attempt humor that does not have a negative connotation, even in jest. I will instead speak truthfully about positive things about my wife (and other people).

3. One goal for me. I will attempt to make at least a few male friends and/or build on current friendships. Possibilities...church groups, friends I haven't seen in awhile from college, sports leagues?? This will be more difficult.

Okay, those are the goals I'll work on and continue to work on previous goals to ensure I don't slip.

Now for tonight. This was a very good night. I dropped by after work and pick up S-son who wanted to stay over tonight. After I left I called my wife to tell her a little story about ex-W. She made several comments implying things about the R with my ex (things that implied more of a R than there is). But not real bad, I kind of said "ouch, low blow" and left it at that. No angry retort. We went over and picked up my boys and saw their new treehouse. It turns out my oldest son didn't want to go to this banquet so we instead went out for dinner.

Since we weren't going to the banquet I called and asked W and s-d if they wanted to go out with us. Dinner was a blast. Everyone interacted real well and on good behavior. It was a really good get together. Mainly lighthearted discussion with my w. A lot of joking with the kids....me with s-kids and my wife with mine. I think that was definitely along the lines I was shooting for. Absolutely no expectations from me in terms of more than friends.

The rest of the night was just the boys and me. I see she called while we were playing a game, but hasn't since and didn't leave a message. I guess she'll tell me tomorrow.

Well that's it for tonight. Things are going well, at least as far as the friendship goes.

Oh sage, the answer to your other question was that I was debating flying to Denver this weekend to see a friend from college (a guy) that I haven't seen in awhile. Just do a little bit of partying. I told my wife a while ago that I had talked with him...said I wanted to get down to visit him sometime...so not a surprise. I also mentioned it last night to my s-son that I might fly to Denver this weekend. So it isn't that dark, but I will make a point of mentioning it and indicating I'm going alone. She won't worry about who I'm leaving here with so much as what happens while I'm there.

Well goodnight all. Please give me a little feedback. And as always your responses are much appreciated. And sage, how did you know someone was talking about you?

Sage,

Let me give you a little rundown and maybe you can give me some clues that would help me straddle this fence better....and do more of what works.

After she moved out I did see her a fair amount and did the distant but friendly stuff. She indicated on Valentines that she was confused and missed the family type get togethers. She even initiated a hug and kiss, which was a first. After that the whole week seemed more and more positive. She at one point indicated she'd probably be back in a couple months. I tested the waters with a kiss that didn't seem to be rejected, but the next day she said she thought she was leading me on and never should have said all that stuff.

So I went back to distant but friendly. But in the meantime I started working on the house. I changed my entertainment room, repainted it (she didn't like the colors), changed the downstairs carpet (I did ask her about it and she told me the color she liked), and inadvertently started an emotional type thing with a FF. That I think was the kicker. I went to dinner with her and explained that it was mainly just friendship, but she wasn't buying it. I was a little distant for the next couple days and then she started the conversation about how I had given up because of the house changes and the FF (she said it doesn't matter about her, but kept coming back to it so it did matter). That's when the whole D thing came out and I said "fine then let's get the details out of the way". Then I went back to friendly. We went out a couple times and had a nice time. We interacted in a friendly manner, but I asked for a hug and didn't get one. She called and said sorry and I stupidly asked where she was at with us. Still "I love you but not in love with you". Which brings us to the present. I went off to the swim meet and while I was away she read my thread and I think it was all percieved as pressure by her and that I was holding out hope for something that would never happen. At least not in her present state of mind. She said she contacted a divorce attorney, etc. All I could think to do was say "I love you, but I only want what will make you happy. So I let you go and won't hang on anymore".

It's hard not to give too much attention and too little. My take is I need to be her friend first and foremost which won't be hard except we don't have any interactions that I don't initiate. Not unless I stay away for awhile. No, the flowers etc won't work. I went to her office one day and she reacted in a very uncomfortable fashion. She responds uncomfortably to compliments. I'm really at an impass regarding what to do. I know she'll read my thread again. She'll hold off for awhile but then she'll do it. That's why I have to leave that name behind and hope she doesn't find me. I can't pour my heart out and not be percieved as pursuing. I don't think we can comfortably be friends until she doesn't feel any pressure.

So what do you think? Any suggestions? I went to brunch with her and it didn't go over too badly. Maybe just a few informal dates that aren't real dates? I don't know. If I was asked in February if I was getting divorced I would say no way. Now I don't know.

Thanks for finding me Sage.

Hope...

Need some quick help. Like 15 minutes type help.

I posted originally as if divorced since we looked like we were heading that way and I was letting it happen really easy. Now my wife does want to meet and go over divorce stuff so we can get it going. I asked..."is this what you really want?" and she said the question wasn't fair. Maybe the question was pointless because she wouldn't do it if it wasn't what she wanted. I don't think it's a scare tactic.

So when I meet her in a half hour or so. Do I just cheerfully go through the details and figure I can DB after divorce and might have a better chance of not pressuring her. Or should I make it clear again that this is not what I want. One last ditch pressuring effort to change her mind or convince her of my desire to save this marriage.

Hey !

I will try to describe the attitude that you need to adopt, that may work with your wife....

Picture this:

She comes to see you for this or that..( you havent seen her for two weeks)......and you are working in the yard, on the car, etc. First off....when you see her drive up, you smile and say "Hi ! How are YOU ?" Emphasis on the word "YOU".

Pretend you are a bachelor and she's one of your occasional lovers. So...if that's the case...you're certainly NOT going to talk about anything serious...or bring her down, are you ? Of course not ! Why? Because you LIKE this gal...and want to see where it leads....but you are not yet ready to settle down...and have said as much to all of them.

And you rarely CALL her. You certainly dont BEG her for a date, by asking her more than once. In fact...when you DO plan a get-together...you're cool about it.:

"Hey...Joe, Sally, Lisa and Bill are going to the XXXX friday nite and asked me to join them. You want to go ?"

If she hesitates...or balks...just say " Ok, that's cool." using a matter of fact tone.

You do this because you have OTHER options...but SHE was the first you asked. You dont want to mention other women...because any good bachelor knows that isnt cool.

You LIKE her. But she isnt the only game in town.
You are BUSY...and dont have time for any drama.
You are positive...and abhor negativity.
But you are NOT gaga over her. Not yet anyway.

You always treat her with respect and courtesy...to a point...as you do all of your women. That's why they all love you...and call you a sweety. You are SUPER POLITE..and smile a great deal. But you REALLY light up when you see this gal.

You let her know you like her by your ACTIONS. But you do not obcess about her. She is one of many. She might be a bit special to you, but...she isnt the only game in town.
You are now someone that she wants to be around....no matter WHAT her words say to the contrary.

Oh sure...there are other women after you....but you show her that you like her by your entire face lighting up when you see or talk to her. So...she does not think she isnt in the running....in fact...she thinks she may be a frontrunner....and wonders if she is. As long as you act are 100% "positive", when in contact with her....she will begin to believe it too....and come around more.

BTW, I could smack you for telling her about this site !

What were you THINKING ? ( nevermind..lol !)

She may SAY she thinks you've given up....but if she had more time to ponder it...that's when she would have begun to MISS you....and would have realized that SHE is the one setting YOU free....and had better take steps to correct the sitch before you are too far gone.

Just do your thing...and if she's someone worth keeping...she'll come around more. If not...you have lost nothing.

BM

BTW, I didnt see your previous post when I typed this one...but, after re-reading it...it may be Ok for this meeting. My advice, though is to let lawyers handle the details....and not talk to her about it at all. This way,..any anger she has can be directed towards your lawyer, and not you.

Quote: ....she said the question wasn't fair.

This tells me she is STILL on the FENCE...but sees no way out. She needs time and space to think. This lady is confused, bless her heart.

BM

Exactly,

We met. It was good. I did make it clear that divorce is not what I want. Basically her response was I don't want to keep having to tell you that I don't love you.

Which we already knew from every previous encounter. I didn't make her tell me, just validated.

You would be proud at how well I validated. Then we discussed issues surrounding selling the house and splitting up stuff, etc. It went well. No fight in either one of us. There were times she broke up about things. She said she cared for me very much. She said that "you people on this board didn't understand that sometimes you have to let someone go because you love them." I understand that. I let her go for that exact reason. She also cried when she talked about my kids. We spent some time clarifying a few recent misunderstandings, etc. She talked to me about her improved relationship with her son since she moved out. I said I was happy for her (which I was..things had been getting fairly bad between them....it's great to see her smiling and happy when she talked about it). It was nice veering away from the divorce talk and splitting stuff up, etc. I love my house and I know she does too, but I'll sell the thing in a heartbeat if it's part of getting my wife back.

Okay, positives:
1) she's going away for Easter and she said part of the reason she wanted to get this discussion out of the way now is so she can think about what she wants to do. She left little doubt that she will consider us.

2) She wouldn't take my ring back when I offered it. (Well this could be pos or neg don't know)

3) She indicates her reasons for doing this so quickly is because she cares too much about me to keep hurting me and doubts her feelings will change. This is the most painful thing I could have experienced through this. I did really well with the conversation, but this hit hard. I really didn't like seeing her hurting like that, especially not if it was on my account. I would have given her anything at that moment.

Anyway, so I know where it stands. She still feels the "not in love" thing, but it is now compounded by a desire to not give false hope. That's my new name in Spanish btw...hope. I'm very resolved now. I am going to be the best friend she could imagine, but that's all. No pressure if possible. I will go through with the sale of the house and the divorce if that's what it takes. It's not like divorce is the end all.

Thoughts?

...Hope

Hi anyone,

I'm going back to the beginning of when things were good and got ugly. Try to figure out what worked or didn't and get some insight/help in turning things around for me.

Good: One week after wife moved out....started talking about being confused, considering just a two month break, "not exactly separated", "I'm thinking things about you I shouldn't be...maybe I'm just horny", etc.
-this was preceded by me helping her with the move
-still interacting friendly (but not physically) with her/
-starting some of GAL
-appearing happy
-having family night out....together with all of us

Things worse: Suggesting strongly getting a divorce, trying to work through details of divorce, interacting less. She was less friendly. Preceded by:
-too physical or suggesting physical stuff
-too much effort at GAL...too many changes to house
-FF
-Very little interaction, especially after a more emotionally charged interaction.
-Forcing her to tell me her feelings
-Reading my thread and getting the sense I'm "hanging on to slim hope" and it's just hurting me.

So my feelings what to do:
1) Show through action only that I love her (no forcing any kind of R talk)
2) Avoid letting her know I'm holding out hope...I just want to be around her as her friend
3) Not too much distance....no humungous changes (or did that help???) Get her opinion on big things???
4) Previously had good interactions at informal "dates"...ie spur of the moment dinner or brunch. No advance planning of dates...or formally asking out.
5) Joking around even about touchy subjects seems to go over pretty well.

HOPE

Journaling: Nothing new. Wife is off to parents for Easter. Gave me a hug before leaving. I asked her to call to let me know they all arrived okay. No word since (but they aren't there yet...so we'll see).

Hope,

The thing that leaps out at me in your list is FF. That's the kind of GAL item that might set W's crazymaker in action. I don't know the details of how things turned bad, but I think the presence of FF and W's imagination made for a bad turn in your sitch.

It's that patience thing again. Keep the faith!

Thanks,

K

K,

I know. FF is just something that happened, but is over now. She was actually a friend. So no hard feelings.

Patience is something I'm working on, but not very good at.

Thanks for dropping by.

Hi Hope - just wanted to let you know that I found your thread. I hope you find enough patience to get you through this. You're getting really good advice and being her friend is key. Big Mouth suggested an excellent approach for how to act with her.

My best to you.

Geneva

Hi Hope,
Take it from someone who doesn't seem to make any progress, do your best follow the counsel you read here and from michelle have high hope and low expectations and get ready to move on. That's what I 'm doing today not that I want to.
God Bless

Hope,

I think it's great that you're looking at what was working and what seemed to put the brakes on. I agree that FF was probably a big factor and also the house stuff. Your w said herself that your actions were suggesting to her that you had given up on the M, right?

Maybe her point was something like this...you're doing a great job validating with WORDS that you're ok with her taking time, finding out what she wants, etc, but you're actions are saying "hey, look at me, I'm moving on!". DB suggests non-pursuit which makes absolute sense...but I don't think it necessarily suggests pulling away hard...particularly right off the bat (yes, I know, it FEELS like a LONG time since you've been DB'ing so perhaps "right off the bat" isn't fair but perhaps more time would have been suggested?). Sometimes I think that "standing still" or "doing nothing" isn't given enough credit..I don't mean not doing ANYTHING with your life, because that doesn't make sense, but I do mean, work on yourself, hone some new interests, work on fixing the stuff that bugged wife about you and the M, but don't pull away from her.

Know what I mean?

Sage

Thanks for stopping by Geneva,

And thanks for stopping by the old thread under that previous name (PD) to wish me well. I appreciate it. It seems like forever ago that you would visit the old me and give great advice that I kept chucking out the window with my impatience. Actually it's amazing how much better I feel about myself and my situation from several months ago when my wife dropped the bomb about OP and ILYBNILWY and I had the terrible sense of desperation. Of course back then I thought this was a sprint...and as BM says...it's more a marathon. I'm sure everyone posting on this thread can attest to that.

Somewhere along the line of DBing I did as Sage suggested and got the cart before the horse or behind the horse or beside the horse...or whatever. The point being, I didn't look or listen for signs and I failed to stop doing the things that were moving me away from the goals. Anyway, now I'm focused.

Nothing much new to report. My wife did call this am to say they arrived safely. It was nice talking with her. I've got some organizing/home plans this weekend that I think will pretty much carry me through the weekend. Anyone know anything about scrapbooking? I want to start cateloging memories. I'll start with one son I think. I did pick up a second scrapbook for my wife while I was there, but I suppose I better wait for a real occasion to give it. I thought it would be fun to do the project together.

Anyway, that's all I know. In case I post no more or don't return for awhile I hope everyone has a wonderful Easter.

La_esperanza (HOPE)

I didn't realize it was you. Are you keeping your identity a secret? I'm glad to see you still posting.

Geneva

Geneva,

I had to change. I like to provide support and recieve it, but I cannot vent, cannot suggest my approach to my situation, or what's going on with my wife and I if she is just going to read it. After reading my previous stuff she said she couldn't let me keep holding out hope like I am. I'm sure she understands why I did the things I did, but reading the thread was percieved as a great deal of pressure. "My God, my husband is still holding out hope we'll get back together. Doesn't he know I don't love him anymore? he's deluding himself".

So yeah, I'm hoping she doesn't snoop too hard and find me.

Thanks again for finding me. I, of course, was hoping you would. I'm sorry things seem to be in standstill for you, but you obviously for the most part have a really good attitude.

Like the new name? It means hope (as I'm sure you gathered)...which is what I have.

I understand your reason for changing the name, but is it okay for everyone here to know who you are? Can I still use your real name?

How in the world did your W get to read your other thread?

How are the kids? How are you doing? Are you writing?

Geneva

I haven't signed my real name anymore because I don't know what the abilities of that search function are. Can it find a word that is imbedded in someone's post?

She found out because I told her. Stupid hunh?

BM did say she'd read it, but I really doubted it at the time. She had shown so little interest before. You can see all that on the previous thread. BigMouth even wrote a note for my wife to read..."dear Mrs Wes...yada yada" It was cute. Nice letter. My wife never did remark about it. She called immediately after reading my thread and said "I talked to a divorce attorney...I think we should get a divorce". So, obviously no more letting her read my thread.

LOL

The kids are wonderful, thanks for asking. My oldest son is just doing great in swimming. Two 1st places and a second place at the state meet. Doing great in school too. My stepkids are adjusting okay to moving out. They do get to stay over night still, especially my SS8, but my SD11 does too on occasion. Our relationship is really good. I wish I would have figured that out sooner.

I haven't written on my book since my wife moved out. It's not because I'm moping around...it's solely from a lack of time (well this uses up some time, but it's very useful to me and I hope I can help others too). Between keeping up with housework, regular work, kids coming over, making dinner, etc....I find I have very little time for writing. I think I'll have some great stuff to put in the book though when I get back to it. I've actually been very happy, thank you for asking. The DB stuff has been great for me as a person. It just seems that trying to be outwardly happy eventually leads to being actually happy which leads to it being easier to be genuinely outwardly happy. If you get my drift.

Anyway, I've followed your posts, but you don't put what's going on in your heart in there much. So are you doing well? Emotionally okay? I'm hoping so...

P.S. I tried the search for Wes and it comes up with so many hits that I don't think you'd ever find this thread that way.

Alright, well we'll stick with Hope for awhile. I feel funny calling you that.

I'm okay. You know it's hard for me to talk about what's in my heart. I struggle with it. I honestly miss my H very much. I've been having more bad days than usual and I'm not sure why. I try not to show these moods to him. You know how I feel though, this is God's hands and I'm trying to stay out of His way. I would love for my H to spend the night with me for no purpose other than he wants to. I would love love love to get a kiss from him. (The one last month doesn't really count because I kissed him during ML and he just kissed me back.) I would love for him to speak words of love for me and tell me that he finds me attractive. These are the things that are in my heart and it upsets me to think about them.

Geneva

Yeah, the name is difficult since it sounds like a girl. Well it will throw my wife off. Typing La_e is just as difficult.

I definitely know what you mean about wanting a show of love. Even a genuine kiss would be sufficient for me. I know it hurts to even think about those things. Actually I carry in my heart this dream that Deb will say she wants to talk and she'll look in my eyes and tell me she loves me. I wonder how long I have to carry this dream around? Of course as you say...thinking about those things only makes it harder (and makes me more impatient). Someday.

Hope,

I've been reading your thread, and I believe I know you too.

Just wanted to drop by and say howdy and that I'm thinking of you!

M

Well hello to you too Martha. Thanks for popping by. It's always nice. I hope you have a nice Easter that is free of any of the usual cr.. that we're all getting used to.

Thanks, Hope. Actually I'm in kind of an odd place right now. I finally started to feel some anger after SO and I had brunch last weekend, so I'm taking like 50 paces backwards and just sitting things out for a bit. Letting it stew, so to speak.

My kids' will all be at their dad's for Easter, so I'm just going to hang out and do homework, but I am going to a friend's house for dinner on Sunday after church. (I have a feeling it might be a "fix-up" but I'm hoping not. I found out today that there will be a single man there. <BIG EYE ROLL!!!>) <shrug> We'll see.

Take care, honey, and drop by my thread sometime.

Hello all,

Nothing to report, just writing. I read through Martha's thread. Excellent stuff on detaching etc. Many days I have that, but not today. Some days are just so hard not to focus on what the end result will be (divorced or together)

Yesterday night and today I've spent time rounding up pictures and putting them in picture boxes, etc. Some fun trips down memory lane to when my kids were babies and little. I'm actually stoked with attempting to make a scrapbook for the boys. As I mentioned before I also got one for my wife. I might give for Easter, but I need to think about that. Pursuit maximus??? I tried not to focus much on her pictures (she has ones from her previous marriage and before). One thing I did note...my wife is hot and has been for years now.

She had this photo shoot at some point (I think during college) where she was wearing this skimpy leopard skin like thing and a mask. WOW!! It was hot. I was tempted to keep those pics. Or at the very least scan them.

But all this trip down memory lane was painful.

Should I just spend this entire week without any contact with my wife? I really don't have a reason to call except to wish Happy Easter tomorrow. She was going to use this time to think so I probably should just let her. A definite positive is if she calls me.

Anyway, that's all. Just looking for reassurance and a little company. Time alone is definitely not a good thing. Fortunately I have a bunch of work to do, so TTFN.

La_E (HOPE)

Hey Hope

Definitely don't contact W, too must pursuit of her. She needs a chance to miss you and wonder why you aren't there and why you didn't say 'happy Easter'.

The photos are nice but put them away for a happier day. You can keep them, but don't look at them all the time. I regret not keeping more of my photos.

I know it's difficult, but you can do it. A positive end result will be worth the pain!

You said will we be divorced or together? You're forgetting you can be divorced AND together. I am.
Richard and Judy re-married each other after getting divorced (Chat show hosts), so did my friend Martha and her H.
It is possible.

Jo.

Hey Jo,

I'm sticking only with the pics of my kids. I forgot how they were when they were little. Of course they've been cute the entire time (aren't everyone's kids).

Okay, I'll go dark all weekend and through Wednesday next week. It's going to be killer for me.

And of course you are right about divorced and together. Actually when I started at this spot I was anticipating that I'd be divorced and still DBing. So divorced and together I do believe is the 3rd possibility.

Come back tomorrow Jo and say don't call her.

Okay?

Happy Easter.

Hope,

I just finished filling baskets and hinding eggs with S12 and D9. S5 has a big day tomorrow!

Anyway, I cruised the site and saw this and figured it can't hurt if I post now.

DO NOT call her!

What the hey, I was in the neighborhood, right?

Have a Blessed Easter,

K

DON'T CALL HER!!!!

You are not alone - loads of people on this site are thinking about you and sending you virtual Easter Eggs.

Happy Easter!

Jo

Happy very emotional easter!

Church was very happy and sad at the same time today. I'm not the best of Christians, but I did get to thinking as I sat through this awesome service that my relationship with God is just like that with my wife, only the exact opposite. He's the one that loves me and I'm the one saying "I don't know you well enough to love you...or ILYBINILWY" If he wasn't God I'm sure I would be a frustration to him. Of course he's patient. He lets me have my whole life to get my head out of my butt and come to him the way he wants.

I need that kind of patience. Yes, I had two "don't calls". But I came out of church happy and what I wanted to do was tell her and my S-kids to have a happy Easter. So I left a message on her phone. I have undefined emotions running through me. I really can't tell if I'm happy or sad, but I feel like crying.

Today isn't a day for me to worry about the consequences of anything in my relationship. It was a day I was thankful for the gift God gave me on this day. So it was a day I wish that for my wife. So there

Anyway, country music today has been torturing me. It seems the radio just keeps having applicable songs. I'll share the lyrics of two. I think most here can relate.

First One-Brooks and Dunn. Getting better all the time

I don't stop breathing every time the phone rings
My heart don't race when someones at my door
I've almost given up thinkin' your ever gonna call
I don't believe in magic anymore.

I just don't lie awake at night
Asking God would get you off my mind
It's getting better all the time
It's getting better all the time.

And Blake Shelton's Goodbye time

It's your life - you say you need a change
Don't all the dreams we've seen come true mean anything
You say it's different now and you keep staring at the door
How can you walk away don't I matter anymore

If being free's worth what you leave behind
And if it's too late for love to change your mind
Then it's goodbye time

If we had known our love would come to this
We could have saved our hearts the hurt of wasted years
Well it's been fun - what else can I say
If the feeling's gone words won't stop you anyway

If being free's worth what you leave behind
And if it's too late for love to change your mind
Then it's goodbye time

Well I better go get a life. Hope you all had a nice Easter.

Hope,

Please let me be the first to slap you for posting the words to country songs. <SLAP!> Knock that crap off!

That stuff is WAY too depressing for you to be a) listening to and b) sharing it! Okay? JAZZ! NOTHING BUT JAZZ (and NO Sinatra!). Jazz is better when there are no lyrics!

I liked your analogy of God DRing us. That gives me a lot to think about. And it's good that you are spending some time trying to understand your own feelings in all of this. Keep that up. Unfortunately I don't think men learn that skill as boys, and then it comes back to bite you in the butt when you're an adult.

Hang tough, dude.
M

That's for you Martha and your dissing of country music. Maybe I'll have to try jazz though.

So no reply from my wife. She either doesn't have her phone or she does but doesn't want to talk to me. Maybe you were right about not calling. But I wasn't in the mood for DB games today regardless of whether it moved me farther away from my goals.

And speaking of that. When I had my previous setback I told my wife the reason I was distant was because I was just giving her space. She said, but you always do that. You just want space all the time. So I don't think that completely dark is in my best interest. Oh well, I left the message and that's enough for one day.

Well, I guess I better get back to work. And quit worrying about what my wife is doing or thinking. Although I would like to hear what kind of fun things my s-kids are doing. MMMmmmm

TTFN

Hope, I did my time listening to country. It's just too sad or sometimes too dumb (Prop me up beside the jukebox when I die, etc.). But hey, I dance a mean two-step and I'll take you on ANY time you want, dude!

I like George Straight.

Seriously, about the jazz, let me know if you're really interested and I'll recommend some good introductory artists.

I think I'm turning in myself. Only 4 hrs of sleep last night and tons of homework and posting tonight. Blech! Why was it I wanted to go back to grad school? Oh yeah...that little thing called money !

Martha,

Yes, I'd like you to recommend some good jazz. It says a person lives longer if they listen to different types of music. Although by the ache in my heart tonight I'm not sure why I'd want a longer life to live by myself. Just moping.

Dude...email me if you're online. Wllowwlk@aol.com.

Why do you suppose this board is always so slow on Monday? No one really seems to even journal on Mondays. Is it because everyone is so depressed that they have to go back to work?

I wasn't going to write because putting down each interaction with my wife just makes it harder. She did call back last night. It was nice. We essentially just talked about what they had been doing on vacation and I gave a little rundown on my day. It was a discussion between friends. I find that I really like being friends with her. Sure I'd like the whole ball of wax, but as long as I don't selfishly focus on how I want more it goes pretty well.

So that's all for now. Just wanted to say 'Hi' and see if there was any life on this board. Does everyone have Monday off?

TTFN

HOPE

Hope,

Tell me about the Chekov quote you've been using in your sig line.

The quote has no particular special meaning for me. I just liked it. I like quotes so I just find ones that appeal to me. I usually switch up quotes a little more frequently but I guess I felt like staying with this for a bit more. Do you like it?

Actually yes, very much. I was wondering about the context and what body of work it came from.

Hi,

Not much new here, just typing.

My wife called yesterday afternoon from vacation. We just talked about what was going on there and here, so it was mainly shooting the breeze. So I'd call that a positive. I did get the feeling that she had stuff on her mind. I didn't push it though and ask her. I was a little concerned after hanging up that I should have given her the opportunity to speak her mind. But then again that could lead to R talk which would probably not be good.

Anyway, she'll be coming back today. I would really like for her to contact me and want to go out to eat or something tonight, but I'll just see how it goes. Plus I want to see the kids. I guess nothing to do but see how it goes. Write more later.

Hey everyone,

I feel really good today. Let me give you a quick recap of all of my pursuing behaviors.

My wife got home yesterday afternoon. She was dog tired. I went over to bring the kids their easter presents and see if my S-D wanted to walk the dog with me. My wife went also. We made some uncomfortable small talk, skirting around the R. Anyway, at one point:
She said "You're mad at me aren't you?"
I said "No.", and laughed
She said something about hating her
I took her arms and looked at her and said "I'm not mad at you and I don't hate you"
She then said something about not loving. After that I reached out my hand to see if she'd hold it and obviously she didn't. I must have had a little frustration on my face because she said "I give up. I was just trying to be nice"

So I said "Let's sit down." and then I proceeded to say "This isn't easy for me either. I don't know what you want from me. I'm okay with being friends, but as friends you can't keep trying to figure out where I'm at with us. It's not fair to me."

Then as we walked she said she cared about me very much and got all teary about it. She also said, but that wasn't enough. I told her it was enough (of course invalidating her feelings).

I told her I was okay with whatever. That my head and heart were in a good place and I would be okay whatever happened. She wondered why and I said because I feel I've made changes to me that make me happy. I wasn't a good person and I've been working to be better. I said I hoped someday I'd find someone that would see the good in me.

She said "so am I". And I said "what? happy with your head and heart?" and she said "No, wishing someday someone sees the good in me"

That took me back a step. I felt like crap. I said "Listen. You already have someone that sees the good in you. Me. I'm sorry if by my attitude and words that I made you feel unimportant and less than you are. I regret that I didn't let you know how special you are." She cried to that. Then she hugged me and we said see you later.

She came by later to drop off some suitcases. I gave her the scrapbook stuff. Then she gave me a quick hug and off she went.

Anyway, more R talk. This morning I woke up and really felt like I had dropped the rope. I didn't care what impact the day before might have had. I don't care if it's a setback or not. The words needed speaking. I also felt that she is holding my past faults against me...understandable...but that it would stand in the way of getting back together. Maybe wrongly, I sent a note that reconfirmed I'm sorry, but also talked about selling the house in the spring (which is now) so we can each get a place. I said I realize that words are cheap, but I was sorry, I've changed, but I understand that we probably won't be man and wife anymore. I haven't seen a reply. Nor do I expect one. It wasn't a cruel note or anything. I just wanted to clear the air some. I really feel today that I'm good either way. When I think about never being man and wife again (in the usual sense) I don't get palpatations.

Well, that's all. Let me know what you think.

OK, so you made a few clangers but she was pushing you to - she's interested in you but terrified that you will do whatever drove her away in the first place.

She WANTS you to compliment her and tell her you love her but at the same time, it terrifies her.

I am a woman myself and I know hinting when I see it.

Another common reason for this type of behaviour is ownership, you were HER H so she's checking up on you to see if you are still HER H.

I remember my H asking if I had a bf when I first started DB'ing (first night I'd ever DB'ed and he asked if I had a bf!) and he also asked if I still found him attractive and kept trying to hold my hand.
Of course, at that point he'd have run a mile if I'd suggested he was interested in me, it was pure OWNERSHIP ('I can't recognise this new person, she WAS mine, is she still mine? I want to brand her as mine!').

Slightly unfair of the WAS but quite predictable, esp. when they think they are so close to losing you.

I think if you carry on showing her what a positive new person you are and that you still find her interesting to talk to, you might have a good chance there.

Jo.

Jo,

I like your comments. They are quite positive. I hope this is a step in the right direction, but I do agree with the ownership thing. It always seems like "just checking" and then back to her hidey hole.

I believe that she does need time to get used to the idea that the negative things are gone. She said before "we've been there, done that." about the marriage and then said "what would be different". So she is questioning whether it will be more of the same. I just have to be myself...the new better me...and if that doesn't attract her to me then I guess that's the way it will have to be.

Anyway, just a little followup. I talked to my wife about a story we've both been following. She did say "thanks for the e-mail. It was touching." So I guess it wasn't too terrible.

Well better get back to work. I need to get done with this stuff then check up on some threads.

Let's see, what's new since I wrote last.

Thursday my wife asked if I wanted to go to parent teacher conference with her. I said I did. The kids were doing pretty good. I had a nice time with them, but felt uncomfortable, like the teacher was thinking what's this guy doing here. I've went before but I think the teacher knows we're separated. I told my W I was uncomfortable because of it, but she was encouraging so that's good.

We then went to dinner. Pretty nice time, just talked and hung out with the kids. At one point I said we gotta bust it and she asked what's the hurry. I said because her son wanted to get back to his game before bedtime. No pressure evening. She didn't bring up my e-mail again.

Friday I had to fly out so saw nothing of her until later. She left a message asking if I wanted to use the van to go out of town to yet another swim meet. It was nice of her to ask and I called and left a message saying I didn't need it but thanks for asking. It happened that I saw her right before leaving town. She was friendly.

Wasn't sure what to do when I got to Wyoming. I guess no pursuing so I didn't call. I did write a quick e-mail to say we got here. She wrote back and told me a little about her day. So I wasn't dark. I did return her e-mail to tell her how the boys swam.

Well that's it for journaling. I'm still in the good place. Just going with the flow and hoping things turn out for the best.

Ugghhh,

I picked the rope back up and feel not as well today. Okay, my own fault for getting nosey and also pursuing. I called a couple times yesterday just for the heck of it. Mainly from sleepiness and boredom as I drove.

She had went out the night before...apparently with her sister to hear some band. She danced and danced...according to her. The thought has got me all jealous. I'm sitting here trying to tell myself what does it matter. The thinking part of me actually says it doesn't really matter. She needs to come after me anyway...not visa-versa.

Actually yesterday and today I've spent a fair amount of time asking myself what would be different should she come back. I haven't even had a chance yet to see if we could work out the problems that led us to this point. I know I feel better about myself and how I think I would handle myself, but that doesn't mean that she won't be unreasonable and unwilling to give me a fair shake. Besides should I really trust someone that would walk away so easily?

But the rope is picked back up. I'm back to wondering what's in her head and heart. I think I know the answer because she hardly ever initiates contact. I think I need to really quit with any form of pursuing. I just wonder where my excellent willpower went.

Anyway, that's all. Nothing new to post. I did notice that of all my mail that my wife brought in the house the only piece she opened was MY cell phone bill.

Guess she's curious.

Good morning,

I need some perspective here. I can't seem to figure out what works and what doesn't.

A quick preface to events/interactions prior to last night: some good contact on Friday before I left to swim meet. W seemed genuinely pleased to see me and made nice offer to take the van instead of my car which is running crappy. Saturday...e-mail interaction and small phone interaction. Neither seemed that great. Sunday...a few phone interactions...again she was tired, but interactions not great. Heard about the dancing and may have sounded jealous (probably did). Monday...no interaction during the morning. Quick call by me in afternoon that wasn't negative but I felt like I was bugging her.

That leads up to last night. My W called and was mainly silent at first...then brought up the "I'm going over D papers." She said she was confused about everything...but mainly talked about HER future. Not an US future. She just thinking about what she'll do for a full time job and she also was seriously debating going back to school. She says she'll kick herself if later she finds she should have pursued her dream.

During the convo she was nervous I would take talk about D badly. I told her I was okay with divorce if that's what was best for us. I didn't think I did terribly before, but I guess enough so that she was worried it would hurt me. She indicated that we were better friends now than we had been in a long time...a point I seconded. That is definitely true and I said that I felt that was one big problem we had in the marriage...we forgot how to be friends. I also indicated I thought successful marriages needed a good friendship as the base. She said she was worried that she'd ruin the friendship.

She also said she was confused...I asked if she wanted me to come over to talk. She said "I don't know". I don't think so.

Then she told me going to law school was her dream and she'd kick herself if she looked back with regret about not going. I told her to go for it...that she has my support. And she does, even though it means she'll be 300 miles away and it will probably kill our marriage and maybe our friendship. I'd love to find a way to have her and also have her go to school. Some possibilities come to mind, but they mainly include us together as a couple again and me being able to get a job if I move. Then worrying about leaving my kids behind. It's a very sticky and difficult situation. After that portion of the convo she said "maybe you should come over." So I did.

Actually when I got over there we didn't renew this portion of the talk. She told me about some guy groping her when she was dancing. I listened but did say I was uncomfortable with my W off dancing being single. That was probably my weakest moment. I clearly sounded jealous.

She said "so we're done having a friendly discussion?" and I said no, it's okay. I said it sounded like fun and we haven't went dancing like that for a long time. She said that's part of why she was dancing so much. I indicated that we should have made more time for each other to do those things. She didn't think that was the problem. That if the other problems hadn't been there it would have been okay not to go out. I said that I know. I wish there hadn't been those issues, that I wished I had listened when she told me about them, and that in ways it was good this happened because it gave me a chance to look at the things I didn't like about myself and change them. She still doesn't express complaints about the marriage in more than vague terms.

My S-D came in so that part of the D ended. The rest of the time was okay. I spent time with her in her bedroom looking at some pics of her vacation, talking about the website she likes to visit, and chitchat about the swim meet. Left on a good note.

So that ends the night. Today I feel good. But I'm confused. Last night and this morning I felt like what she needed was more friends type interaction rather than darkness. We are comfortable in each other's presence for the most part and could easily do activities as just friends. Of note...the only time she brings up D is after I've been kind of dark. In between it doesn't seem to come up. When it does come up the conversation has lately gone really well without hard feelings, anger, or a lot of expressed sadness. And it usually has involved me in some form expressing that things would be different. I know LRT says no R talk if possible, but I don't think that ours have gone badly. The last couple times she hasn't appeared or expressed discomfort. But I don't talk about "being back together" with certainty or express a future together, just "if we were back together...or if we're ever together again"

Anybody got a take on this? What I want to do is find things to do together as friends or at least walk the dog together. As a friend on here pointed out...it's only pursuing if the spouse percieves it that way. Little doses at a time? Or should I continue to wait for her to initiate? Friends do spend time together. And I want to...a) because I like our time together b) I want to give the friendship aspect more time to grow c) make it as difficult as possible for her to make the decision to divorce d) enjoy what may be my bit of time together with her and her kids. If I only have a summer left with them in the same town I want to make the most of it that she will comfortably let me.

Okay...I'll end this monster note. I would appreciate input.

Wow,

I just saw what a huge post that was.

Looks like Koshka.

One small added note: I just finished reading Akron29's thread. He was clear at divorce papers then went very dark and let her go and let her know it. Things went good from there and they are back together...if still piecing. It's got me thinking. Obviously we each need to think what's best for our individual situations. I could increase slightly the number of "friendly" get togethers and if that doesn't work or she pushes the D, then help her realize her fears that she will lose her friend. THoughts?? SUggestions? Abusive comments??? Ridicule??

Have a good one everybody

I just had to post because I noticed so many positives in your situation. It seems that your hard work is starting to change things for the better.

I think you should work very hard at not pursuing. Wife is beginning to get comfortable with you, and you don't want to frighten her away. I can totally see how things are getting better between you and you think more interactions like this can only create more positives. In my own situation, I would often mess up things when they started to look better. I would get all excited and overwhelmed by getting closer to H and want more and more of the interaction. I would then start pursuing. Eventually, I learned to clearly notice that this behavior made H very uncomfortable. I have gotton good at getting close to H and then backing off and letting him digest everything that happened. I also remember when it was getting close to my divorce being filed, I began to come onto H like gangbusters. You have to be real careful to not confuse your panic about the divorce being finalized with a sincere desire of being a better friend to her.

You have so many positives and you need to reread your post when you start to second guess your situation.

I agree that very, very, very little tiny doses of pursuing that are perceived as kindness can be a good thing, however; I think wife could freak on you and think you are trying to manipulate the situation and force her to stop the divorce. I would tread very carefully in this arena. Your wife sounds to be on the brink of not knowing what to do. Her confusion is such a good thing for you. You don't want to scare her and make her jump.

Plus, if she decides to go through with the divorce, let her be even more confused when your friendships with her grows more and more. She is having a tough internal war and you want it to get tougher and tougher. Don't give her any reason to think she is making the right decision by divorcing. Don't give her any reason to think you might be just manipulating her.

When should your divorce be final? How much time do you think you have.

About her going away to law school and you worried about her moving. Try real hard not to get to ahead of yourself. Start to think about things on a day to day basis. Looking that far into the future is just going to overwhelm you. You need to validate wife's feeling about going away to law school and try not put your own dreams into her plan. So much can happen between now and the time she moves away if she even does. Help wife pursue her dreams by encouraging her. Applying to law school is a long process. She isn't going to just get into law school and move away overnight. I think you are getting way ahead of yourself in this situation. I am applying to a similar graduate program and I have been preparing myself since this summer when I made the decision to apply. If I do get into the program, I won't start school for another year and a half. I would do the same thing you are doing and worry about all the details of the future. Everything is now starting to fall into place just perfectly. Things will work themselves out so try to just concentrate on one problem at a time.

I just wanted to say that I see a lot of positives happening for you. Enjoy the good that is starting to happen and stay focused on living just today the best you can.

Sam,

Thanks for stopping by. I really appreciate the input. Very helpful comments. You are right...I was getting the cart way in front of the horse. Nothing is going to happen too quickly. And it is very easy to justify why I should interact more.

I need brakes on my brain.

You know...I don't know about how long I have. She hasn't filled out her paperwork. So it might not even get to that point. I'm actually not real scared of divorce. It isn't any different than what I have now, except there is a piece of paper saying I'm no longer married. If she does get the divorce rolling though it will be quick. We've agreed on all the details and have no kids together. It really could sail through quickly. At this point I've told her several times that should the papers come I won't try to drag it out...I'll figure that's what she thinks is best. Which is true...I've accepted that possibility.

Anyway, your post does help me. I was debating flying to see a friend this weekend and then last night and today I thought I should stay here and see if my wife and kids wanted to catch a movie. Now I'm thinking I should go away this weekend. It will do me good to see an old friend.

Hope

Go away Hope. Play golf, go bowling, do something. Go!

I know how much you want to do stuff with your W. I want to ask my H out too, but you know, it's his turn.

Later.

Geneva

Good! I am glad I could help. I went back and read more of your thread and saw what Sage had posted to you about how going too dark can send mixed signals. Her advice was really great. She is an inspiration. I love her posts.

I agree that going dark can send mixed signals, however; I think you have to be really strong to do this without getting your own wants wrapped up into what spouse wants. This was just too hard of a fence to walk so I just decided to lean on the side of going dark. For me, I had more positive results when I just went dark when the going got tough. Now that I am stronger and have built more trust between me and H, I can tread very slightly and show just a little bit of pursuing. What changed so I knew it was OK to do this? My intentions have changed. I truly want what is best for H and am less selfish about getting my own needs met. This took a long time though and I am NOT there completely. I would say I am there 10% if I had to put a number on it. When I say I can pursue just a little, I mean just a little. It is like I throw it out there and then take it away and don't throw it out there for another two weeks or longer. I also try to remember that H is also busy doing a lot of growing and changing, and I have to give him space to do this.

I have to tell you a story that shows how far we all have probably all come. When our divorce was first filed a year and a half ago, H thought he had made a mistake by filing for the divorce two months into it. I went dark after one week of begging because I was so shocked about what he had done. I didn't talk to him for about a month and a half. Of course, he was having second doubts after my going dark. Well, right away, I jumped on this first sign of interest. I demanded that he make a decision because I wanted my life back the way it was (of course, that was the last thing he ever wanted). I was piling marriage counseling books on his doorstep. I was a lunatic. He would tell me he was still thinking about things. I called one day and demanded a decision. He told me to give him two hours so he could sit at his desk, do nothing but "think" and make a decision about whether to call off the divorce. To me this sounded insane. I thought how is sitting at your desk for two hours and just thinking going to help you. I also thought, who the heck wants to sit and "think" for two hours. I called him after an hour and said, "well, are your getting close to a decision." Of course he was frustrated by my phone call. Looking back, the whole scenario was comical. After two hours, he called me back and matter of factly said, "I thought about it and my answer is no." I actually was crazy enough to think he might say yes. I laugh out loud when I look back at my behavior and even his. We were such idiots!

I know you probably were never as bad as this, however; I thought you would have a good laugh. Plus, I might have boosted your ego by helping you realize you could always be worse off.

I think going away for the weekend is a good idea. This will give wife time to digest everything that is scrambling through her head. Even Sage has said that if you don't know what to do, do nothing. I have found that when H and I don't speak or have contact he starts to remember the good times we used to have. As long as your wife knows the divorce is not something you want, I think giving her space is a good thing.

Wow, that did cheer me up. Thanks for sharing your pursuing behavior. I know I would have run away from you.

I guess all I can do is be patient.

Thanks all for posting.

me

Sage, I really appreciate what you have posted about going "too dark" in this case. However, in my own sitch, LRT and going pitch black got me a little contact and then she quit. I got no real positive baby steps no matter what I did. I have had three sessions with Vernetta the DB coach, and together we concluded that since my now XW was so very mad and only vented anger on me when we met before the D, that the best thing was to just leave her alone and wait for her to contact me. You see, I am nearly absolutely sure my XW has not expressed anger to anyone other than me. Yes, we had an arguement that lead to her leaving, but this was only part of her reasons even though she has never told me exactly why she left. She has refused to go to counseling and until she cools off, I can only sit still and wait. I never got the "I don't love you anymore" or anything like that. In fact, early on, she always replied to my "I love you" with "I love you, too." We divorced in 4 months at her insistence. She was talking to friends inquiring when she should file as soon as she moved out. Thus, I am pretty sure she made her decision to divorce out of anger and pride. It can take a very long time for such feelings to subside and that is why I remain dark. So Sage, since nothing really worked, do you still think remaining dark is bad for my sitch? I have tried being a friend and she is not interested in that either although she stated in a letter that she still wanted to be friends...our MC said it would be a better interpretation for me to take it that she meant she didn't want to be enemies. Meanwhile, I have been working at GAL, taking care of my sons and forgiving her. On top of that, I am working on anger management, but without much success so far...it is a very tough pattern to break.

Hope, you have a ton of positives there to carefully work with. As long as she is confused, you have a chance. She does need time to work through things and as long as you don't pressure her with rebuilding the R, you won't drive her further away. I think it is great that the two of you still check up on the stepkids. My XW has pretty much dropped that altogether even though she said and wrote that she would work at it.

Johndad,

From the sounds of it I would tend to agree with the counselor that your wife means "let's not be enemies". It's not real "friendly" for her to never contact you. I would think if she wanted to be friends she would accept a few request for contact that were friendly. But how long is long enough for going dark? Do you poke your head out every once in a while to see if she's still angry?

In my sitch, I truly believe that she wants to be my friend. Not the kind you don't talk to for years. And really I do enjoy her company and want to be her friend too. One thing I really enjoyed this morning was my step son stayed over night and last night and this morning he started calling me dad. It was cool. Anyway, nothing much new to post...I just sent her a quick e-mail to tell her something about Peter Jennings (that we talked about last night) and ask how her day was.

TTFN,

me

Wes,

Have you shared with your W that you understand how much pain she is in too? Have you validated that feeling for her?

Just wondering.

You sound pretty down today, bud. I'm sorry. I know how very, very tough this is for you. What are you doing to care for yourself?

M

Yes Martha,

I validated that I understand this is painful for her. And that's not fake....it is hard for her. What I didn't say was that I don't understand why she is in such a hurry for divorce. This whole thing doesn't make sense to me. I can't figure out why I'm moving farther away from the goal. It's not being friends. We've done well with that...so I don't get it.

I did call and tell her that I could find the stuff she wanted. She called after that and asked if I wanted to go to dinner with them. I declined. I talked to her again and she asked again if I was sure I didn't want to go. I repeated that I didn't. My s-son wanted to come over instead of going to dinner so she dropped him off and the interaction with her was okay.

I think the best thing to do if I wanted to achieve my goals is to change them....

Goal1: I'll be divorced by the end of April.

I think that should be easy enough to attain. I'll probably be ahead of schedule. Divorce isn't any different than what I have now so it's no big deal.

Sage, I've monitored. The only thing I can think is that this being around her, even when things are great is not working. It may even be worse when things are great. I've had a fair amount of contact and she just won't quit talking about divorce. Part of this is anger on my part, but I do think I need a lot less interaction with her. I'll still care for her and still want to be her friend, just not the kind of friend that I hang out with whenever she wants to.

Well everything is set. I'm off to Denver this weekend. Yes, I told her since she's watching the dog. I'm going to have fun.

Koshka, I'm not sure what's worse...being friends or being enemies. Being friends is too much like being married. And the really positive interactions just makes you wish for more of her. And then what happens is you get shot down or she talks about D continuously and it hurts worse. Frankly I'm getting sick of this. The interaction feels too fake to me. If we were that great of "friends" she would consider my wishes too. As she said herself "men and women can't be close friends". Well if she doesn't want more than friendship then she can find someone else. Because I want more. I want someone that genuinely wants to be around me and has an open mind about moving to the next step.

Wes

Wes,

bit of a lurker me, but I've read it all (your thread that is). Wow you don't half beat yourself up about stuff ya know!

Here's my .02 worth - just don't give your W any reason to think there's an OW. Have a great time in Denver and remember she feels that going totally dark isn't a 180 - it's a zero. I don't know how DBcorrect this is but maybe a call to find out if everything's ok? Not sure if that's ok - better listen to Sage on that.

End of April is very soon for a D, don't write that goal down on paper. Keep it vague - I'm a bit superstitious about stuff like that.

take care and g'bless
Ruby*

Hope,

Out of curiosity...how did the email from your wife come about? Did something prompt it or was it out of the blue?

Sage

Sage,

I probably should take whatever avenue she allows me, and i must admit I'm also more comfortable doing the family thing also. And that gives me a chance to see the kids. I guess my ego/pride are getting in the way. I'm just pissy that she wants to hustle this divorce through. I perceive the problem to be that she is trying hard to keep me as a friend so she'll have what we have now after divorce. Right now she and the kids get me when they want me and then when she doesn't she can just forget about me. That's not how I intend things to be after divorce. I want her to get the feel of that before she files to make sure that's what she wants.

So, are you saying you think your w is being this way because it's convenient for her? Do you really believe that? Or is it possible that she's ebbing and flowing because she's confused -- you know, two steps forward, one step back.

Sounds like you're suggesting the approach of "show her what she'll be missing by pulling away"...I've never been particularly fond of that approach, especially fairly early in a sitch (yah, I know...it doesn't FEEL so early to you but...). To me it just seems like game playing...plus you have the knowledge already that when you go dark, w takes that to mean that you are "moving on" and that expedited her decision.

I don't mean to be a one trick pony here but it just seems like consistent practice of "doing what works" and not doing "what doesn't" combined with a boatload of patience and friendship...ya know?

That being said, perhaps others will chime in with successful application of "give her a taste of life w/o me"...and I'm not using "successful" lightly here...

Sage

Its good that your able to go to a book and pull out something positive. This tells me that you are not the type of person who dwells on the negative, your a person that seeks out the positive. Good stuff.
Yeh, probably not a good idea to make one of your goals to get divorced, since thats not what you really want. But venting here is good. Much better vent to us than w.
My W actually called me the day the D was supposed to go thru, crying because she didnt get it because I didnt have it noterized. Understand and accept that this is difficult for them and the dont always think real clearly. And get ready to let some of the flack roll off your back, remember to pick you battles.
I think your doing good. If you feel like your interactions are going to be less than positive, then go a little darker. Try to keep the interactions positive.

My impatience got the better of me again. It started as just an itch I had to scratch and turned into something bad. I called my W and said "can you do me a favor?" She says sure....and I said "when you get this divorce paperwork done I don't want someone to come serve me." She said she wasn't going to.

Is that stupid or what? I also asked her what's her hurry...she says this isn't a hurry...and why delay?...and I essentially said I didn't think I could be her friend to the extent we currently were...she cried and said she had to go....I didn't leave it at that...I called back and essentially did more of the same...said I needed a couple weeks to come to grips with things and I didn't want any contact with her....then I later took it back. The conversation was completely insane....at least I was.

I wasn't mad, I didn't raise my voice, I didn't cry, I didn't rant and rave...I just didn't have any kind of rationale thinking going on. I didn't know what I wanted. It was mainly just rambling...saying something...taking it back...saying something else....I just basically said...I'm confused about what I want and how I'll feel after divorce. At one point I did want to give an ultimatum but fortunately didn't. I do have serious doubts that I can just hang out with her like I would with a male friend for months on end. I can only do that if I don't love her or want anything else from her. I've never had a long term female friend and I really don't know if I want one, especially not one I love that doesn't love me back. That sounds insane.

I did end the conversation with "I genuinely do like hanging out with you and the kids and lately I haven't expected anything from you, but I'm not sure if things will change after D. I hope not."

Rather than writing here I should just refocus. I'm losing the calm that tells me...I have no control over what she does so just relax and forget about it.

My current plan: I have S-son tonight but after that I'm going dark for as long as I'm able. For the next....until she contacts me...I will not contact her. If she does I'll sound happy and be friendly but I'm going to turn down invites to stuff....I might accept one if it's been a while.
I think that what I have been doing....having contact etc, has done nothing for me. She doesn't feel any differently and she's able to carry on this friendship which is all she wants. I have actually moved closer to my latest goal...getting a divorce...than my true goal...staying married.

Actually....scratch all that...I'm not doing any of that B.S. I'm just going to do nothing as Sage told me before. Move no closer and no farther away. I'll be myself. I'll go with the flow. I'll accept whatever comes my way. And I'll be happy. I really have a good life. What am I thinking being such a arsehole.

I'm fine. Sorry for this stupid note, but venting helps which is why I didn't erase any of the above. I don't think I moved myself closer or farther away from my goal because I was a week away from being served anyway. How could I make myself any closer? My wife will put a rush on it so it gets served tomorrow?

I'm sorry you're struggling so much Wes. I hope the weekend away allows you some much needed relaxing and/or fun time.

My prayers are with you.

Geneva

Wes...yikes! Wow. OK, man, back away from the phone!!

I'm just kidding...you've already done a full circle on the phone calls and all so I'll leave that alone.

You did, though, take the wind out of my proverbial sails because all afternoon I've been thinking about your sitch and I finally came up with a clear (I think) explanation about why the "I'll show her what's she's missing" thing often doesn't work...

I'll post it anyway just in case you find something you can use in it...

Now, note that this is just my two cents.

I think the "I'll show her what she's missing" thing often doesn't work because a) it's often applied prematurely and b) it creates a cycle between WAS and LBS that is enormously difficult to break (not impossible! but difficult).

Here's what I think happens:

Stage 1:

WAS WORDS: I want a D. I want space.
WAS ACTIONS: I want a D. I want space.

(note that these are in sync)

Stage 2:
WAS WORDS: I want a D. I want space.
WAS ACTIONS: ----> I want to spend time with you. I'm confused.

Note that these are out of sync.

IF allowed to proceed unfettered, this may possibly move to:

Stage 3:
WAS WORDS: ----> I want to spend time with you. I'm confused.
WAS ACTIONS: ----> I want to spend time with you. I'm confused.

Still in sync, right?

Then onto:
Stage 4:
WAS WORDS: ----------> La di da. I won't say what I want.
WAS ACTIONS: ----> I don't want a D.

Then hopefully onto:

Stage 5:
WAS WORDS: ----> I don't want a D.
WAS ACTIONS: ----> I don't want a D.

NOW...I want to note a couple of things...first off, obviously, this doesn't necessarily apply to every sitch (heck, maybe it only applies to mine!) and secondly, the time lapse can be LONG and drawn out.

But what happens when things go awry?

Well, we all know how much we can screw up in stage one (arguing, pleading, crowding, pursuing) but it's stage two that intrigues me...

Stage 2:
WAS WORDS: I want a D. I want space.
WAS ACTIONS: ----> I want to spend time with you. I'm confused.

This seems to be the time when one of two things happens...the LBS starts asking for commitment to working on the M OR the LBS backs off a la "I'll show her what s/he's missing" (this is often the time when someone is described as a "cake eater", too). Sometimes I think it's as simple as the LBS starts acting cool toward the WAS when together...and all of a sudden the WAS is like "well, I was enjoying spending time with you but maybe you're not enjoying me? maybe I was right all along about this..."

They get confused. They pull away. The LBS is still dark. The WAS reaches out and they enter stage 2 again...can they get through it without more of the same? If not, the cycle continues....

It's one of the reasons why patience is such a pervasive mantra on the BB, and dropping the rope, and, as you point out, my alltime favorite "doing nothing". I have told you how I came to love "doing nothing", right? When h dropped the bomb I was so paralyzed with confusion and sadness, I couldn't figure out WHAT the right thing was to do (for the first time in my life) so, well, I did nothing.

So, what do you think? Do you see how impatience and pursuit can freak out the WAS during any of the stages? I do think that stage 2 and stage 4 are the hardest ones to get thru (well, after the crappiness of stage 1 and all!)

Sage

Wow Sage,

I enjoyed that. It seems very reasonable. But I wonder where I'm at. We know from previous that I screwed up stage 2, it went back to stage 1 and she became more determined. Then she read the thread and went back to stage 1, but more determined. I do not feel she's left stage 1. Because of dragging stage 1 and 2 out so long she's gotten really close to divorce. I'm really not sure it can be derailed.

Remember how I said I would do nothing? Well I did do something. I called a realtor. I also asked my wife if she wanted to be part of sale of house. Then I called back and said...that was really insensitive at this time...I'm sorry. I just wanted to get the realtor's impression.

Was that all? Hell no. I stopped over there after work to pick up s-son. I said...I'm sorry for how I acted. Being friends with you is better than not having any contact. I did a few things for her at the apartment then before I left I initiated a hug. It was okay I suppose. I saw her again after that briefly. Short sweet interactions. She did drop off the dog without saying anything, but that's okay.

So Sage, what stage does that put me at? I promise I will be patient through stage 2 if it ever comes again. I will not bring up D until I'm served with papers. I guess you should have been quicker. THanks for your comments though. I appreciate it.

hey Hope
Whatever you do - do NOT follow what another DBer did - her sitch and the way things have gone are truly MIRACULOUS. Her thread is entitled 'But even if he doesn't...' in Staying Solution Focussed. Even though it seems to have worked, it's not something to try unless you're willing to risk it all.

Mind you I don't think she intended it to be part of her DBing EVER!

I've followed Sage around the BB and wow are you in good hands or what? Quit being so impatient *slaps your wrists*

Take care and g'bless Ruby*

Wow Sage...this is really good material.

It's funny -- I read this post yesterday, and voila, after 3 weeks of no contact with my SO, poof! I get an email from him last night! I think I'm in stage 2.

Now I just have to figure out how to respond.

Anyway, this is very helpful. Thank you for your thoughtfulness on this.

M

Sage,

I am going away, just for basically one day. A really quick trip, but I'm going to spend the weekend catching up on stuff. Yesterday was way to much pressure,etc. I am not trying to push her back to stage 1 and I think (as I often do) that this time I have control of what I want to do and goals firmly in mind.

Unfortunately, there is this ugly little demon in my head that is playing a different tune every once in awhile. It's called pros and cons of life with my wife. This little demon starts throwing out things that made life difficult with her, the things I disliked about her, etc and says..."is it really worth it? You might handle things differently when you are back together but will you wife? Can you trust her not to just run again even if you had her back?" I'm going to spend this weekend sending that little demon back to hell so I can think.

I'm not going to say I won't slip up, but I will say that I'm going to see this thing through stage 2 onto 3. I just hope I get to do that when I'm still married.

As always, thanks for comments.

JRB,
"I know how you feel about not knowing what kind of R you want after a potential D. I feel the same way. Sometimes I feel that I need to explain that to my W, because she seems so comfortable thinking that we will be friends and there for each other after a D. Then I remind myself that I don't know what I really want. That I so often in the past would make strong statements or give an ultimatum that I didn't really mean. Until I figure it out, I'm going to try to continue to say nothing."
Ditto for me. I don't think I've ever just idled this long and let W push all the paper work to D. Regardless of what I do it's "control." I think I'm beginning to learn what putting it in God's hands means. It sure takes faith!

Good afternoon everybody,

Been a few days since I posted. I did take the weekend off. It was fun. Anyway...here's what has happened since last post. When I landed in Denver I noticed I had a voice message from W. It said.."I forgot to tell you to have a good time. Let me know when you'll be back." I did call my wife 3 or 4 hours after getting to Denver. I don't know...I just couldn't help myself, but the conversation was good, mainly just discussing the little I had done so far with my friend and how he was doing. The rest of the time my friend and I were off doing various things...nothing a married man shouldn't do.

If anyone was watching the news you will note that I was unlikely to get out of Denver on Sunday (and I didn't). Snowed in. I let my wife know and she asked what she could do. I told her just take care of the animals. We talked back and forth a few times during the day since I was trying to figure out if I could catch a different flight that day and trying to get through to United.

Anyway, the only other notable contact was she called to say one of our neighbors down the street would be interested in buying our house. The interaction after that wasn't great. I asked "do you want me to sell?" and she said she didn't care one way or the other. So that ended the day's convo.

Monday she called in the afternoon to see if i had gotten home. I didn't know I had the voice mail but I did call anyway and tell her I had arrived. Some talk about the airport etc. I did go by after work and pick up S-son. I had to wait an hour at her house while he ate. We talked about the Denver trip, my friend, and some movies we had both seen. It was a nice convo. So now today....no interaction at all. Which drives me crazy after we interact good. I'm still not sure whether I should contact her or let her contact me. I really don't have a reason to call other than to say Hi. This is the part that is hard.

One thing I do note as this goes along. When I abandon thinking about my wife physically or wanting some form of physical contact and I don't have reconciliation in mind when I talk to her that the conversation is good. More like just friends and I do tend to leave without expectations or hopes. This is turning into a friendship that I enjoy, I just wish we had more contact.

Well that's it for now. I'll keep you posted. I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate stage 1-2.

Hope, remember the old adage, when in doubt, do NOTHING.

Just hang on for a while. Don't contact her. Go a little gray.

M

I didn't like what I made of her answer. Which is "I don't care because I won't be coming back." I told her I was having doubts about selling right now and was going to put it on hold.

I decided I will wait through the majority of the summer before considering selling.

Nothing much new to report. Saw my wife a couple times yesterday while picking up and dropping off s-son. Plus she called to see if she could pick up the dog for a walk. I did ask if they wanted to come over for dinner tonight and she is so we'll see how that goes. Write more later.

W

Perhaps you are right about the friendship thing Koshka. I just need some time to find a way to renew that with my WAW. This detachment and going dark thing is tough for me now...I think it is working in reverse, i.e., more on me than on her.

Good morning,

How's everyone doing? I'm good today.

Thanks everyone for your comments. Koshka I already feel like we're pretty good friends. Really we're both the only close friends either of us have in this town.

Okay, so last night I intended to spend a quiet night alone doing a little housework. My W called and asked if she could do some ironing over at the house. I said sure. She brought very little to iron though. Wondered if I wanted to order a pizza. Unfortunately she was feeling really lousy and seemed to get sicker while she was over. At one point she was just suffering on the bed (I resisted jumping her)

Maybe a little too much but I gave her a short neck/back rub that she didn't seem to shy away from. It wasn't too much or too pushy. She looked so crummy I suggested she leave the kids with me and go home and I'd bring them back later. She did look quite a bit better a couple hours later. I got some good quality time with the kids. So it worked out fine. The really nice thing about all this is that my relationship with everyone is better. My wife too in many ways. We were husband and wife, but the last half a year we weren't that great of friends...more like roommates.

So far the friendship thing is working out nicely. I think time together fills a void for both of us. Allows for a little adult conversation and interaction. My plan at this point is to continue to go with the flow and see each other as often as is comfortable.

Well that's it for now.

Wow, Hope!

Your sitch has come a long way, with some nice moves toward friendship indeed! I'm impressed. I can really empathize with you and feel some of the exact same struggles and themes: the friendship, the pulses of attraction. You are doing very well keeping it as she likely needs it for now - as friends. If I were a betting man, I'd say that she's also feeling the pulses of attraction. Rest assured about that - but know that (at least according to M/V) you're reawakening this thru your willingness to attend and have convos with her, as well as your nurturance with back rubs and concern about her being ill. Very well done!

I'm taking notes...

Gabriel

Gabriel thanks for reassuring comments.

I haven�t written in a bit so I thought I�d update. I guess I need to cover Saturday through today�I�ll just list pertinent positives and negatives

Saturday: W called in am and said they were going to the zoo, did I want to go. I ran a few errands and met them there. We had dinner afterwards which went pretty good. Later my s-son and nephew came by to play video games and I discussed all of us going to the movie with my W. Unfortunately that didn�t materialize.

Sunday: W called in am asking what I was doing. I was rollerblading with dog. The boys wanted to come back over so I said they could when I was done. Unfortunately when they did finally come over I brought up an issue that I was having. I felt that my wife and s-kids were having discussions about how they felt my kids were too mean to them (which is BS�it�s no more than sibling interactions). It didn�t go that well and she left mad. I did say that I didn�t feel anything about our kids wasn�t workable. It got only slightly nasty, but she had other things going on as well (sleep deprived, had to tell son he couldn�t play his favorite game anymore). I called later and said sorry if I misjudged�I was just trying to clarify things, but I didn�t want to be in a position of choosing my kids over her or her over my kids. So bad day.

Monday: No contact during day. I called near the end of work and asked if she wanted to go to dinner with us and maybe rollerblading after that. She actually accepted pretty happily (it seemed). Dinner went over pretty well. Good family type interaction. We all did go skating (except W who walked). That was unfortunate because we were all ahead of her most of the way. I did come back to her when we reached the end. Overall seemed pretty positive. S-son stayed with me and my kids overnight

Tuesday: W sent e-mail asking how things went with s-son overnight (he isn�t allowed this rated M game). I replied back fine and said we did b-ball instead. She called after work and asked if we wanted to get pizza and which kinds. I was running late with the boys and she actually kept the pizza warm in the oven rather than eating without us. That was sweet and I told her thanks for waiting for us. After dinner we played a little b-ball then off to my son�s music program. My wife went. Something she hasn�t done in a while. After that we went to DQ for a little icecream. Most of this night was somewhat uncomfortable�sitting next to her at the program (I kept wanting to put my arm around her or hold her hand) and then a little at the DQ. We said our goodbyes but it turned out s-D wanted to come over to stay last night too so she had to drop her off as well. The kids and I had a lot of fun�b-ball again, Halo2, and grass fight.

Wednesday: Only interaction so far�she came by to get the kids�came downstairs where we were playing Halo2�looking very hot and was very friendly.

That was longer than I thought it would be. So lots of interactions, most positive if somewhat uncomfortable. My short term goals: A really good conversation with W. Some physical contact initiated by W. So far I have done some physical including: backrub, playful tickling when she mumbled something at dinner but wouldn�t repeat it, and some playful grabbing when she was busting my chops during b-ball. I want her to initiate something physical. We haven�t even had a hug.

Any suggestions on how I can achieve these goals or do I need to wait for her? I think I need to find an interesting topic to discuss with her.

Just be patient and take it very slowly. She needs to respond on her own timeline and if you push it, you are very likely to end up pushing her away. Patience, patience, and more patience. You have had a lot of positives...give those time to work through her mind.

Hi all,

I found these boards a year ago Feb (04) when my then wife moved out and later filed for D, it was final Nov. I have not been around for a very long time, because I had trouble reading about people getting back together or holding on to false hope, which I did for a very long time.

This is my first experience with a D and nothing I want ever to go through again or would wish on anyone.

But I thought I would drop by the boards and I still see many of the same people who helped immeasurably through a dark time.

But here is my opinion (for what it is worth) on the prospect, reality, chance of a post-D R. The other person left. They walked out. They quit on the R, the M, you, the family, everything. If they wanted to stay and work on the M and R, they would have. But they did not and it seems unlikely, they want to reestablish another intimate R.

I talk to her almost everyday, she calls to talk to the kids, no I never call. We see her frequently. And I constantly question the sometimes weird reasons she calls, like last night, or why she comes by, but I have to understand there is no ulterior motive. She is simply doing what she does, with no intention. I know I tend to overanalyze, but I also know there is NO chance of her coming back into my life like before. We know have a completely neutral R. And the real question is, after everything, would I want her back?

Thanks

write

Dogma,

I'm very aware that this could very well end in divorce. In the end, I've lost nothing from this process and gained quite a bit. I've stopped worrying that I'll be divorced. If it happens then she truly wanted the M to end and there wasn't a thing I could have done to stop it except for what I did. This process has allowed me the opportunity to take a good hard look at myself. There were things that needed correcting and attitudes that needed adjusting, whether I was married to her or not. There is nothing wrong with monitoring the effects of what you do has on your wife or other people. Actually if you can have success with a WAW or a divorced spouse you should be able to have incredible success with someone that will actually give you a chance.

Dogma, I sense you are bitter how things turned out. I will have some of that too if I fail, but I also know I'll be just fine. I bet on some level you still look for the little signs that may be positive. I've actually heard of a number of people, not just DBers who have been remarried. It's not such a stretch of the imagination. It sounds like you've asked the question..."why would I want her back?" I have too and I want her back for the same reasons I wanted to marry her in the first place. To say "look what she did to our family....etc" is to say that your wife isn't worthy of trust and isn't worth forgiving for walking away. I've already forgiven my wife for leaving for my own sake so I wouldn't be bitter about it.

For right now I'm just happy. I genuinely enjoy being around my wife whether we reconcile or not. I'm actually at this point 50/50 on whether we will. I need more than a little sign to push it one way or the other.

Dogma, I agree with the above response. I understand your bitterness for I have now been divorced twice...I have been the LBS TWICE! I have had children hurt TWICE! I would never even entertain taking back XW#1, but #2 captured my heart...I gave it to her when it was hardest, when I had been maimed, had my heart ripped out, shredded, dried, incinerated and the ashe remains of it cast to the winds by my first XW. I know some of the difficulties leading to this second D...some are my responsibility, some things that needed changing, some things that as I work on them and work at changing make me a better person not only for any other woman I may get involved with down the road, but make me a better father to my sons whom I am raising. The changes make me just a better person all around. Perhaps you have not looked hard enough at yourself and made some adjustments? Perhaps you are just overcome with angst, frustration and just plain pain that you can't see all that you have and be thankful for that? On the other hand, the chances of a post-D R are slim...something like only 18-20% of couples who divorce remarry each other. I have to tell you that as someone who works with numbers for a living, those are not encouraging odds, but they are still significant. I, just like Hope, want my wife back for all the reasons I married her in the first place. I just plainly love her and very, very, very deeply. I understand her a little bit better now and should we start on R, then I will strive to understand her even more so and will end up knowing her infinitely more deeply than any other person in my entire life...warts and all. It will be a friendship to transcend all earthly forces.

JD & Hope

Well said!

And Dogma, your feelings are valid too. This whole thing is just a big SH!T sandwich and we all gotta take bite, smile, and ask for seconds.

Johndad and Kevin

20% of divorced couples re-marrying is still great. It's the same figure for infertile couples.

20% of infertile couples achieve a baby through IVF, and I think you will agree, there are a lot of IVF babies in the world!

It depends on whether you see the glass as half full or half empty.

What you think becomes you.

Jo.

Jo,

I like my glass "half-full" w/ a nice Pinot Noir. And, your right, positive outlook tends to result positive results.

Thanks guys,

I am not bitter, so much as disappointed. Disappointed she quit and did not try; everything was repairable, but her mind was set. Decisions a long time coming without me.

And yes, it is about making positive changes for yourself. I know there are aspects I need to work on and be more assertive in doing so. The irony of course as we all recognize, is I know so much more about the dynamic now. There is a part of all of us who would like another chance. A chance to be better partners; to reach that 5th stage.

I know I am lucky to have three amazing children and my life and slowly it goes on, but there are still days when I wonder . . .

write

Hope,

Your attitude is excellent, and I've learned so much from your taking it. It has served as a great reminder or touchpost for me, especially when I get down and start focusing on my upcoming D. Its not about being M, but about the R. I'm finding myself enjoying the friendship more as well, but only when I drop the rope regarding our M.

Your viewpoint means you're thinking outside the box, outside of the rigid definitions about what is a M or an R. Isn't it freeing to have more room than that to work with?

Kevin, I'm a cabernet man, myself!

Jo, as a guy who ALWAYS roots for the underdog, I just love those 20% odds.

Gabriel

Thanks everyone that posted and thank you very much for the kind words.

BMJB, do you suppose that your son staying with your H made it more real? Feelings that this is how it is going to be from now on?

Most days I keep my hands off that rope, but it's not always easy to avoid picking it up. I have no news, but I would like to share a quote that I think is very applicable to DB.

"The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude of life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness, or skill. It will make or break a company, a church, a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for the day. We cannot change our past, we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way, and we cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you...we are in charge of our attitudes"

Charles Swindoll

My attitude for today....happy and content and thankful for what I do have.

Hi M,

I'm sorry to hear of your H getting his own place. I thought I'd write the following to see if it helps you:

1. View it as just a building. Buildings can be sold etc. It's people that make your R's, not buildings. If you reconcile, you can sell it and get a different one.

2. It might give you more space to decide what you want from your M.

3. If you are on friendly terms (I don't know your sitch) you could even get him a 'congratulations on your new house' card and buy him some stuff for the house so that when you go there, some of 'your' things are there and you won't feel so out of place.
I did this before I went dark and bought my H a new chrome kettle to match his other kitchen stuff. His wardrobe was the one I had bought him a previous Christmas, most of my books were on his shelves including ones I wrote myself.
It really helped.
It may not apply if you're nasty to each other or barely civil though, as can happen after break up.

4. Think of it as just a transition place for him until he finds his way back.
My H asked me to work with him prior to me going dark, so I did do, 2 days per week at his house. I had a photo of me on 'my' desk and my name on the login of his computer.
This helped too, as it made his place feel like mine as well.
Obviously this wouldn't apply to you but if you develop a friendship it may do in future.

5. Try to see the advantages of 2 houses. When he has your son, you get peace and quiet and to do what you want.

You have somewhere else to go 'for coffee' should you develop a friendship. If you re-kindle a R, which is possible, you can have a 'love nest' at his place. I got pregnant at my H's place

If you ever move back in together at some point in the future, you will have 2 of eveything (i.e 2 washing machines, 2 vaccums, 2 beds etc) so you can have a massive garden party and sell tons of stuff and either buy new stuff to celebrate your union or go on a cruise

Remember the only thing you can't reverse is death and the largest obstacle is your mind.
It isn't over until you give up and even then it might not be because mine wanted me when I gave up.

Jo.

Although I cannot fully appreciate what you are saying at the moment because I am crying and feeling downright awful, I can see the possibilities your described. It isn't like we hate each other. It is just a little uncomfortable. I have spent almost my entire adult life with this man and to go from what I thought was bliss to this is just about more than I can take.
Some days are better than others. Some days I really believe I could make it through even if he didn't come home. But then there are days like today when I feel it would be easier if I walked outside and got hit by a bus.
But in spite of all this wallowing in self-pity, I will get through it.
Thanks again,
M

I remember the feeling vividly and of standing outside while the removal men came to take away half of my furniture.

I was so hysterical my MIL took me to the supermarket for a cup of tea to calm down.

But believe me, as painful as this is, he will not want you as long as you are depressed and not wanting to live without him.

He wants you to love him because you want him, not because you NEED him. There's a difference.

He wants you to be the confident and sexy person he fell in love with, and people who want to kill themselves aren't sexy, they're dependent. Believe me, I was suicidal so I know.
It is the reason I'm divorced and the reason why it took so long to reconcile anything with my H.

As soon as I genuinely started living for myself and not NEEDING him, he found he needed me and he likes the new me without depression.

I know it doesn't help much at this time, but a PMA really does make a difference to the outcome.

Jo.

JRB,

Glanced through some of your past posts. I am convinced the WAW's go to a school. So many of their actions, words, behavior is verbatim.

Once they have reached a point where they leave or want a D, many, many decisions have been made without you. And yes, D seems like the only solution. They have convinced themselves they have "tried" when in fact, they have not. Your spouse did a lot more in considering counseling than mine did. She quit and she wanted out, similar to you.

They cannot offer a good reason tangible reason, because it is all about them. I told people I could understand a D if I beat the wife or children, or stayed out all night, or wasted money or time, etc, but I was a GREAT husband. Stayed home with the boys when they were younger, did housework, involved in family activities, etc. But it turns out, she viewed me as the guy who took care of the kids.

It is cliched and you are sick of hearing, as I was, but you have to take care of yourself. And that probability of less than %20 of X spouses who return means there is an greater than %80 chance they do not. I think once the decisions are made, there is no turning back. They do not want to admit they were wrong and the decision whether to be in an R and have to deal with shared responsiblities or live a single life and not have to worry about being accountable to another person, is in their mind an easy decision.

write

Here is a post of mine I found from June of 04 and I think it bears repeating. I know I needed to read it AGAIN.

Greetings all,

I am a short timer here. My WAW moved out in Mar after the "bomb" hit in Dec. Is she coming back to me and three children to revive an M of 11 years?

I do not know and I do not care.

In my short tenure in this marathon of marital and spouse struggles and reading the bb, I've formed a few conclusions of my own I would like to share.

DISCLAIMER. These opinions in NO way represent Michele, the moderators, other posters, the bb, and any resemblance to any person living or dead is purely coincidental.

1. There are NO magic answers. Sorry, all you newcomers who arrive seeking the magic potion to revive the spouse and marriage; there is NONE.

2. I will not repeat the standard DB methodology here. The odds are you have had it drilled into your head ad naseum. FOLLOW IT. If only for you own sanity.

3. The WAS does NOT give a darn about what you are doing, so quit worrying over what they are doing. You CANNOT control their actions, beliefs, thoughts, etc.

4. Quit pushing. Quit hoping something will happen NOW, TODAY. It will not, unless you keep pursuing, then you can almost guarantee the outcome and it will not be the one you seek.

5. Relax. Exercise. Walk. Run. Play a sport. Ride your bike. Chase your kids. Take ALL the energy you are wasting WORRYING over your spouses actions and how your actions affect the spouse and put it into something you control.

6. Find a new balance. When the spouse quit on the family and the relationship, the dynamic swung violently out of balance. Find a new center. Focus on you, the children, the dog, something besides the old dynamic.

7. The previous M or R is deceased. Quit digging it up and examining it and trying to breath life into the lifeless form. Start a new R, hopefully with your spouse. But the old R has to die or you will be right back where you are now.

8. Quit taking blame. You are 100% responsible for your 50% ONLY. You contributed to this, but you did not do this. The spouse is being selfish and cares ONLY about themselves. Remember that.

9. It is ok to be sad, angry, frustrated, bitter, confused, and all the other emotions churning around. Find a time or place and experience the emotion. Do not deny it, but do not let it control you. And do not let the spouse see it.

10. Be positive. Be upbeat. Again, if only for your own sanity. Fake yourself out. Self-fulfilling prophecy. This goes right to "act as if." You will feel better and it will become second nature.

11. You may not get your spouse back and guess what, you may reach a point where you may not want them back. You are in control of your R and your life now. ENJOY.