Okay, I'm still plodding through PM. It's hard to get time to read, I'm trying not to read it around W because she might consider it "pressure" and, as you know, I'm currently in my no-pressure campaign.
So, how do I self-soothe? Just tell myself I'm a good guy? Or do I stroke the satin edge of my blankie? Think about my mommy (leaving out the image of her beating me with a coat hanger)? Eat a bag of M&Ms?
Hairdog - who wants to massage his wife, not his ego.
Hairdog,
I seem to remember an earlier post in which you called yourself a "sexual machine" or something like that. For me self-validating my own sexuality in that way has been an effective way of self-soothing, whereas my previous method of self-soothing which involved eating too much ice cream was counter-productive. Becoming a passionate gardener let me ignore my inadequate sex life for a while but it suddenly stopped working for me when I realized I was settling for a level of muted sensuality appropriate perhaps for a feeble 90 year old rather than a healthy 39 year old woman.
So I guess what I'm saying is it's better to self-soothe through empowerment rather than distraction. Does that make sense?
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seem to remember an earlier post in which you called yourself a "sexual machine" or something like that
Moi? That sounds rather crude...can't believe I'd ever say anything like that. Although, if the shoe fits....
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what I'm saying is it's better to self-soothe through empowerment rather than distraction. Does that make sense?
Hmmm. Nope.
Unless you're saying that I need to tell myself, "Your loss, babe" after my W rejects me. Heck, I've been doing that for months. Honestly, it doesn't help that much. Maybe I need a new mantra.
Hairdog - a sexual Yugo?
I think that some of the techniques from Michele's books, Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy, can help with self-soothing especially the last resort technique (stop pursuing, and improve the quality of your own life no matter what your partner may be doing). A lot of the threads on the other boards such as Newcomers, Midlfe Crisis, Infidelity, etc. have good suggestions from posters and moderators.
Moderator JamesJohn has a thread titled
Thoughts About the LRT (he says that this technique should perhaps be called the "ongoing technique" ) that has some great information that could be used in self-soothing.
The "Now" MM wrote:
what I'm saying is it's better to self-soothe through empowerment rather than distraction.
______________________________________
I think she's saying that she's convinced herself that she's OK in what she wants and why she wants it. That means she's overcome the "there must be something wrong with me" thoughts that come with rejection. The way she did it (it seems to me) was to put away the assumption that the way her H reacted to her said something about her (instead of him). Now she has "empowered herself" by recognizing that her wants are different from H, but just as OK. If he doesn't want to accept them, she's still OK.
MM got her mojo back by some pretty effective differentiation, IMO. But, I think it needs to be said that she never really lost her mojo. It was there all the time, but it was covered up by her H's LD responses to/rejections of her. IOW, she was always a sexual person, even when NoMojoBlue. She just didn't feel like it when H acted asexual toward her.
Mike - trying his hand at amateur psychology here
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she never really lost her mojo. It was there all the time,
Hey, that's from Austin Powers, The Spy who Shagged Me.
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Unless you're saying that I need to tell myself, "Your loss, babe" after my W rejects me. Heck, I've been doing that for months. Honestly, it doesn't help that much. Maybe I need a new mantra.
If you're honestly able to say that to yourself then maybe your problem isn't with self-soothing. Maybe it's time to step up to the plate and put an end to your no-pressure campaign. If you're feeling that strong and differentiated, your frustration is probably a sign that you've waited long enough and it's time to "up the ante" with your W.
P.S.
I swear it must have been either "sex machine"or "monkey of love" or some combination of those two that you called yourself,or maybe I was just being intuitive? 
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If you're honestly able to say that to yourself then maybe your problem isn't with self-soothing. Maybe it's time to step up to the plate and put an end to your no-pressure campaign.
I agree, but for a different reason. I think you need to ask yourself: "If W is feeling 'pressure', just where is that pressure coming from?" I mean, really - feeling pressure because you're reading a book?? Who's she trying to kid? I think she can pressure herself way better than you could ever pressure her, and it sounds like she's really good at it. She's just hiding behind it, and trying to make it "your" problem. Wanna really up the pressure on her? Show her that her lack of desire is more a problem for HER than it is for YOU. Make it really HARD for her to pin it on YOU, so she'll be forced to admit it's really HER.
The way to go about it is NOT to never ask for sex. If she's got you believing that simply ASKING for sex (i.e. trying to initiate) is putting too much "pressure" on her, then you need to get her to admit that what she's REALLY saying is that she would NEVER want to have sex with you if it was up to her. Not for any "rational" reason, but just because she doesn't want it. She needs to own up to it, and own the problem. The thing is, she's entitled to not have sex she doesn't want, but you are also entitled to have sex that you DO want. So she has to choose (perhaps) between not having sex, and staying married. Expecting you to stay married indefinitely in a celibate marriage is an indefensible position. She's smart... she'll see that. But by keeping your "no pressure" stance as you've been doing lets her avoid confronting herself on that issue - it lets her "get around it" and put it off. The issue is still there, it's just not being confronted. Eventually she'll have to confront it, and better sooner than later, especially for you. My $0.02 for the day...
Wow. I came to the SSM forum this morning and thought to myself, "hmmm. Only two messages since yesterday. Pretty boring." Then I read the messages. Thanks to everyone who chimed in, but especially to Mike, MM, and Tim.
During the current "no pressure" campaign, things have gone so smoothly. She seems happier, less stressed, even told me yesterday that she enjoys what she's doing at her job, which is the first time she's said anything positive about it since she started at it, about a year ago. We are talking about things more (but not related to sex). We had a disagreement last week about disciplining my DS15 (from 1st marriage), but I heard her out, and then made a decision to stick to my guns. She was kinda pissed that night, but got over it and seemed to respect me (if not necessarily the decision I made). Before, I would have just done what she suggested. I find myself challenging her more often, and sometimes I see things her way, sometimes my way.
My attitude about challenging her is sometimes based on this little voice in my head that says, "what's she going to do...cut you off?" It makes me laugh inside, and I just take the plunge and follow my convictions. Understand that my convictions are usually not that different than hers, which is why we get along most of the time.
My attitude about sex and intimate contact in general is that I miss it so much, but keep on hoping she'll "see the light." What you seem to be telling me is that she won't see the light until I nudge her out of her comfort zone, and force her to find that light for herself. Of course, that may end the smoothness that is our marriage right now. Oh well.
You know what I really miss? I miss
being comfortable with touching her naked body, kissing her, and making love.
Hairdog - conflicted, confused, and contemplative.
You've hit the nail there Tim.
I get accused of putting on "pressure" when I try to initiate anything but is expressing my love actually "pressure". No of course not. The pressure is entirely of her own making and in her own head. When she is squirming around in a sea of "pressure" on Friday night I intend to make it clear to her that Fridays is just the start of the process not the final position. I am ready to up the anti a bit now because rejection is just going to bounce off me.
Quote Tim: "If she's got you believing that simply ASKING for sex (i.e. trying to initiate) is putting too much "pressure" on her, then you need to get her to admit that what she's REALLY saying is that she would NEVER want to have sex with you if it was up to her."
One problem here. My W (seemingly hairdog's lost twin sister) has told me more than once that she would be happier if she never had sex again and "Why can't you just let me live my life the way I want to". Sorry babe, no can do.
SD
Quote hd: "You know what I really miss? I miss being comfortable with touching her naked body, kissing her, and making love."
Absolutely hairdog.
I said more or less the same thing to my W last week though not as explicitly. When she asked me why I persist with reading yet another psychobable book (PM) I told her that all I am striving for is to be able to lie in bed with her in the evening feeling completely relaxed and with no issues outstanding between us.
SD
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What you seem to be telling me is that she won't see the light until I nudge her out of her comfort zone, and force her to find that light for herself. Of course, that may end the smoothness that is our marriage right now.
That's exactly right, imho. Without nudging her out of her comfort zone, she has no incentive to do anything different - she is SATISFIED with the status quo. And yes, this will end the smoothness in your marriage, but it will have the effect of "disturbing" the gridlock, and potentially causing the two of you to move forward in your R. This is a GOOD thing, although it WON'T be comforable or easy... nothing worthwhile ever is.
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When she asked me why I persist with reading yet another psychobable book (PM) I told her that all I am striving for is to be able to lie in bed with her in the evening feeling completely relaxed and with no issues outstanding between us.
Great answer. Do you see the "textbook" effort to suppress your differentiation?
You know, the one thing we all fear is that our LDWs will, instead of rising to the challenge, simply run. But the one thing that is comforting me in that scenario is that they are running because they don't want to face their own issues. Secondly, if their issues are more important than the marriage, then I'm not so certain I want to be married to someone who is that weak and unadaptable.
AtlDave:
If the spouse is not interested in doing whatever it takes to get to the passionate marriage, then why would we want to continue a pointless relationship. Why would we settle for someone that is willing to settle for crap?
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So, how do I self-soothe? Just tell myself I'm a good guy? Or do I stroke the satin edge of my blankie? Think about my mommy (leaving out the image of her beating me with a coat hanger)? Eat a bag of M&Ms?
For me, it's important to have outside interests so I'm not always sitting around stewing in my own juices, thinking about sex.
Running is very helpful (I'm doing 3-6 miles every other day). For me, so is music (flute, pennywhistle, dumbek, quena ... I'm working on frame drum now). Also, just doing pleasant things with my wife, holding hands, smiling, writing her nice notes, etc.
If ALL I think about is sex, and NOTHING is happening there, then I get really, really frustrated.
Jonathan
Hey Hairdog,
I'm almost done with PM now and I think I can explain what I meant by self-soothing through empowerment. What I was really talking about is what Schnarch calls self-confrontation. If you can make a list of all the ways you may have been contributing to the problem and all the ways you may be deceiving yourself and your W by projecting a false image etc. then you have something to busy yourself with and something solid for your spouse to react to.
For instance, I didn't want to believe my H when he said my weight was a problem. When I admitted to myself that I wasn't entirely happy with my weight either, confronted the immature way I was self-soothing with carbohydrates and went on a diet it made me more differentiated and it forced my H to deal with his own issues now that he can't pin that on me.
Another example is at first I wondered whether my H was intimidated by my high drive. The better question I needed to ask myself was whether "I" was afraid of my own HD. If I allowed myself to act/look as sexy as I feel would I not be able to control myself? Would I roll over like a Weeble for any presentable guy with a hard-on? Only when I can trust myself and convey that to my H will he be able to soothe himself around issues with my HD.
Another issue is my problem with my H's use of porn. Since I don't have any problem with porn in general, I had to admit to myself that by focusing on this issue I was trying to stake a claim for ownership of my H's penis. I had a sudden revelation about this when he told me that he didn't like knowing that I masturbated either. So I kind of challenged myself to give it up for a while. I didn't think about it for a couple days and then when I did, I realized it wouldn't make a bit of difference in my desire for my H whether I did or not. I had to laugh at myself for thinking it was any different for my H. I intend to screw my ovaries on real tight and go buy my H a couple new zines to replace the ones he threw away to humor me and enclose a card that says something like " your penis belongs to you and so does my heart" but less sappy (any suggestions?).
One last issue, believe it or not, there are things I'm not entirely comfortable with sexually. I don't like being on top
. It feels awkward to me and it makes me feel incompetent. But, if I'm going to ask my H to try things in bed that he's not initially confident/comfortable with then I need to make the first move in that regard. Next available opportunity, I intend to look my H in the eyes and say something like " It bruises my ego to admit that there are things I'm not good at in bed. I feel like "being on top" is one of those things but I'd like to try to get better at it and do it more often because I know you are a visual person and you probably appreciate the view that position affords."
I truly believe self-confrontation is the road to differentiation. Self-soothing is just a skill needed along the way to "hold yourself together" while self-confronting and dealing with your spouses reaction. Figure out how you may be contributing to the problem (try or pretend to believe what your spouse has to say) and DO something about it, don't just admit your complicity to your spouse. Even if the worst case scenario occurs and your spouse spins out of control and out of your life, you will be a much more differentiated person and better able to deal with your break-up and the rest of your life.
Wow, Mojo, move to the head of the class! Congratulations - you are the new star! I am in awe of you.
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I intend to screw my ovaries on real tight and go buy my H a couple new zines to replace the ones he threw away to humor me and enclose a card that says something like " your penis belongs to you and so does my heart" but less sappy (any suggestions?).
I've always shied away from the "my heart belongs to you" stuff. You need your heart...I don't want it.;)
As for the rest of your post, thank you for explaining it to me. Tim's right...go to the head of the class MM! My W and I and DD3 are going on a vacation at the end of this month, and I hope to work some things out during it. Right now she is swamped with work, trying to wrap a lot of things up before the vacation.
Hairdog - who also needs to wrap some stuff up.
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go to the head of the class MM!
It's probably evident to everyone on this board that I was the obnoxious geek in your math class who was always waving her hand in the air signaling "pick me, pick me,I know the answer".
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I've always shied away from the "my heart belongs to you" stuff. You need your heart...I don't want it.;)
Yeah, I decided to go with a straight-forward apology and ended with "Your penis belongs to you and actually is of no use to me whatsoever if it doesn't come with your mind and heart and spirit firmly attached." I almost made myself cry typing it because really I am kind of "sappy".
I also wimped out on buying a Penthouse at my local convenience store. I ordered a copy of "Naked, Happy Girls" from Amazon with overnight delivery. It seemed like it might at least be "fake-boob-free".
Jonathan :
The self soothing part, that is the tough one. Trying to not think about sex is darn near impossible. Sex is like the screen saver in my mind, if my mind starts to not be so active, the SEX screen saver kicks in. I doubt I ever go more then 5 seconds without thinking of sex. IT's freaking everywhere. I sleep next to her body, I see her hugging and kissing the kids (wishing that were me). I watch TV with her. We go to the kids activities together. Then there is the outside world. I work near attractive ladies. I go workout at the gym 4-6 times a week to improve me, and guess what, the gym is full of babes in skimpy clothing. Then I bike ride on the trail through my town about an hour a day, and guess what, there are tons of couples hand-in-hand, cudlling, close, walking the trails, especially older couples like me. Then to top it off, there are some young girls that are INCREDIBLE, that walk these trails. I go to church on Sunday, and the freaking church is full of very attractive ladies and their daughters. Some of these younger ladies even wear the low rise jeans that show half their cracks, and this is IN CHURCH!! The only time I ever get any real time away from pretty ladies is when I golf with the guys. THat is until the freakin beer cart lady comes "Bouncing" up the fairway at us.
To NOT think about sex, if it were only possible!!!
Maybe I need to join a monastery.
Cemar, you crack me up, and I know you don't mean to. I loved the "screen saver of my mind" comment. I know what you mean. Of course, I thought I was obsessed with sex, until I read about the hell that is your daily life. Sheesh, what church do you go to? Praise the Lord and pass the salt peter. It sounds like you need to tone it down a couple clicks. Have you thought about operant conditioning? Remember Pavlov's Dog's who salivated at the sound of a bell because it always rang right before they were fed? Maybe you should punch yourself in the crotch next time you think about sex. Eventually, it's got to have some sort of effect.
Hairdog - just kidding, but not entirely.
HD wrote:
Maybe you should punch yourself in the crotch next time you think about sex. Eventually, it's got to have some sort of effect.
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For me, being told "NO" consistantly for 23 years has had the same effect. Cemar still wants to be hugged, kissed and loved by his W. He's still aroused by the body next to him in bed. Those were particularly hellish years for me, too.
Mojo,
I could have written this post verbatim. Interesting the similarities in our situations!
Sounds like everything is going really well for you; I'm loving the updates!
In regards to the being on top, I share the same feelings. I like it and it feels good, but H has only come from that position once in all the years we've done it. I don't think it provides the intense thrusting that he prefers and I tire out after about 15 minutes of it. So my confidence re: this position is very, very low. The funny thing is...he asks for this position all the time and I usually try to get out of it! How lame is that.
The reason is that I end up thinking that, while he likes it, he couldn't like it THAT much since his verbal and physical clues are not indicating that.
I think what it does is give him some eye candy to use for later in the session when he is in control and can do it as fast as he likes. Then he can think back to what I looked like and really enjoy it. And there is NOTHING wrong with this! I am not sure what it is inside my mind that balks at this. But you are not only confronting yourself today, you are forcing me to think about issues that I need to address also.
Thanks for this!
honeypot
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I like it and it feels good,
Well then, HP, by all means get up there and do it. Instead of thinking that he's just storing up some eye candy, why not just think that he's trying to give you some pleasure? Maybe he's trying to prolong the session, too, since maybe he knows that you enjoy longer sessions than him, and that, as soon as he's done...well, he's done.
Just a question...have you ever tried it on top, but facing his feet instead of his head? Jeeze, if my W ever tried this, I would love it. Sigh.
Hairdog - wishing his W would try ANYTHING.
hairdog, you took the words right out of my mouth. I was just about to suggest the same thing. Speaking from the male POV, I agree that the female-superior position does not offer me the kind of stimulation I "need", but I do love it. Since SHE is in control of the tempo, I generally "hold off" while in this position, and consider it "her time", and I do my best to provide the stimulation I think SHE would like. I also agree with hairdog that I've heard the feet-facing variation offers better stimulation for BOTH, although it does have the unfortunate side-effect of lacking the face-to-face connection, and a less-appealing view for both. I do like that variant as well, though. One thing I would VERY much like is to be able to sort of "sit up" (i.e. leaning against a headboard) while she straddles me, I think this would be HEAVENLY. However, we don't have a headboard...
Sorry... gotta rush out to the furniture store...
Hey guys,
Thanks for the technical input. I think that his initial reason for liking it is his "tiredness" and a desire to lay back and relax while enjoying the eye candy. That is FINE with me; I just wish that he physically enjoyed it more.
I did the feet-facing thing once and he was so....uncomfortable or freaked out or something that I have not tried it again. I asked him while we were doing it if he liked it and there was no response. I asked him afterwards if he liked it and silence, again. So I scrapped it. It wasn't that physically stimulating for me, so why keep it in the repertoire was my thinking!
Btw, the next day I was absolutely filled with shame and regret for even trying it. It sucks to put yourself out there sexually only to have the other person freak on ya.
In thinking about it, I am not sure why he has a hard time finishing this way. I am no slouch and can get pretty vigorous (I like the vigorous stuff myself, so it is not all for him) but he is just not either mentally or physically turned on enough. I think the fact that I am looking at him makes him feel weird, too. (I am always sitting up, or partially sitting up)
We have also done the him sitting up and me straddling him. This has never worked either. I do think that it is a mental thing with him and he "thinks" he can only do it one way or, rather, he prefers to do it that way so he unconsciously holds out for that.
What do you think about me saying one night: "This is the only way we are having sex tonight, so either enjoy yourself or wait til the next time." He thrives on ultimatums, so this is not sadistic of me! After all, you have to understand that I offer him very little by way of sexual challenges. He has to work for nothing so there is no motivation to challenge himself (under our current arrangement) to finish any other way than his preferred method (rear entry, hard and fast).
Ok, I've rambled on enough about this. Dang Mojo gets my mind in a whirl and then runs off!
HP
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the female-superior position
Actually my main problem is that I have the tendency to want to lean back "in the saddle" like a rodeo cowboy which has caused my H to have to bounce me off with an "ouch-yowee" on a couple occasions. So I have to think too much about not doing that and it distracts me. I'm surprised he still is into it .
Honey- 15 minutes! You must have the inner thigh muscles of an olympic gymnast!
Ha haaaaaaaa. There you are!
Yes, by the time I have exhausted myself in this position, I literally can't get my legs closed. Luckily that is a requirement for sex so it doesn't matter but it does not make me want to do this very often.
P.S. I'm telling you we are long lost twins cause I like to lean back too. Sometimes I will place my hands on his knees. He is the type who won't say "ouch" til he has tears in his eyes so I have never thought about the fact that I might be hurting him! More food for thought..
The answer for both HP and MM may be in the Liberator wedges. For someone who actually HAS sex, they are great for improving the angle and comfort level of female superior positions.
Mike - owner/non-user of the Liberator wedge system
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More food for thought
I just invented a new way I'm going to try to do it based on recently starting doing Kegel exercises again. It's a slow method so I won't be tempted to "ride the pony" too roughly.
My new method:
1) Kneel above penis already rendered quite hard.
2) Lower self enough to just take in the head.
3) Squeeze as in kegel exercise.
4) Downstroke to the base.
5) Grind at the bottom.
6) Repeat as needed.
What do you think?
Gotta go buy my DD12 a bathing suit. Check you later
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What do you think?
I think you're killing me.
Hairdog, who needs a cold shower.
Sounds awesome to me, Mojo!
I think that H would love this. He loves head-only action. I think I just need to adjust my mental perception of this position and regard it only as foreplay and know in advance that it won't happen for him. Otherwise I am frustrated at having to hold back my own orgasm because he is NOWHERE near ready. Not that it is a requirement that we do it together, but it does lessen the experience when one person is going nutz and the other is barely enjoying themselves.
However, HE would say that he would love it if I would just let loose regardless of his enjoyment level (and I have done this) but it leaves ME feeling less than satisfied.
Aw who cares, I'm going to try your method and I'll report back to you.
Hopefully tomorrow.
All right what are you trying to do to us starved husbands over here you two
. Im sitting here reading this at work and I don't think I can leave my desk for a bit.
I will tell you I absolutely love it woman on top. It just hits the right spots.
Mega your idea sounds GREAT to me.
Lee
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Mega your idea sounds GREAT to me.
It sure "wood" drive ME wild!! Your H is extremely lucky to have a W who can even DO that...
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Otherwise I am frustrated at having to hold back my own orgasm because he is NOWHERE near ready
What I usually do in situations like that (where I orgasm first alone) is go ahead and come and then make him wait a couple minutes until I'm "recharged" and ready to go at it again in a way more likely to be simultaneous. I guess I am a greedy(starving) girl who always wants "two for the price of one". :
I've also found that if he's not quite "there" and I am, verbalizing the situation before I come frequently brings him up to speed.
Well Mojo,
If I come before him, he is done. That's the end of the evening. Well, I should say that if he is close, he will continue but if he has just started he will not continue. It ruins the mood for him. Ho hum.
On the bright side!! I did pretty darn good at WOT last night, as promised. By the time we tried that position I was too revved up to give your technique a try but I will try it in the future and let you know.
I did, however, adjust my position so that I wasn't laying down but wasn't sitting up. This allowed him to move his hips into mine and get some of the faster action that he needs. It worked for both of us. Unfortunately, like a big ol' non-PM practicing fool, I think I was too focused on him and his enjoyment level to actually finish that way. So last night it was ME holding up the show, lol.
Normally I do not focus whatsoever on his orgasm because, my gosh, if I did that what an unenjoyable and analytical experience that would be! But last night, I was really paying attention to him trying to see if I had indeed been right in my assessment of him earlier in the day.
I think that me leaning back prevents him from really driving it home, so to speak. So I will stick with this and give it a try again soon. Plus, it was not bad in terms of preg sex. Gave my belly lots of room, whilst allowing my bodacious tatas to swing about and smack him in the face. A win-win. LOLOL
Oh, and I nearly got the Lou Paget book last night. We were at the library (I almost always check books out, as opposed to buying them) and I found the book and found the Ode to Bryan..quite excited I was.
Then H starts freaking out in the library that I "CANNOT check out a book like that" etc. I said he could go to the car if he needed to but that I was checking that book out. He continued on, getting more and more worked up and eventually I said that I would come back a different day and get it so that he didn't have to have the library ladies "staring at him" (ha haa) but that I was getting the book.
Then we got home and he carried on and on about the book and its suggested positions and insisted that we try some that evening. So he is one tormented dude. He is a prude on the outside but he houses the soul of a perv.
So that's my lengthy reply to your short question.
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the female-superior position
Actually my main problem is that I have the tendency to want to lean back "in the saddle" like a rodeo cowboy which has caused my H to have to bounce me off with an "ouch-yowee" on a couple occasions. So I have to think too much about not doing that and it distracts me. I'm surprised he still is into it .
I can understand this, i have the same problem...when i'm on my back, 90 degrees straight up is about as far as i bend before it starts to hurt. This also makes WOT facing feet a position that i can't do which is so unfortunate because i so love that viewpoint
now40,
Good to know!
Perhaps this was H's problem when we did it like this. I assumed he was just freaked out, but that wuold be just like him...not wanting to say that it hurt like hell. He is a "straight up" type guy too so that would make sense.
Even if it didn't I am proceeding with this line of thought from here on out. It is much more productive than thinking that he is a hopeless prude.
Honey
I'm living vicariously through this thread. Here's my two cents. With the WOT, facing the feet (sometimes referred to as the "reverse cowgirl" position), if the woman starts to lean forward, making it painful for the man (as the penis begins to bend greater than 90 degrees downward), I have been known to take the opportunity to switch to doggy style (albeit not with my W, but with a prior partner, as W is not adventurous in this respect at all). Phew. Just a suggestion to all you people out there who are actually having sex.
Okay, on another subject, namely, me, I'd like to ask people about the following, especially you, Atlanta Dave. We've talked about the "vision of where we'll be in 5 years." I've always shied away from this because my W is a "be here now" kind of person. This week, however, she mentioned that in five years she'd like to have an office in a different location than she is now, and be able to pick and choose her clients better (especially picking those clients who would actually pay her!). So she has "opened the door" so to speak to looking at the future.
Since we will be driving a LONG way on our vacation, I'd like to bring up the subject of where I'd like to see US in five years. I would talk about financial stuff, parenting stuff, and, of course relationship stuff. As a part of that, sex stuff. I would say to her that I see us as having mostly resolved our differences on ML, and that we would be ML at a minimum of once a week. At the risk of pre-writing this script in my head, here's two versions of how it would go from that point on:
THE GOOD VERSION:
W: That would be great! How 'bout we get started on that tonight!
Okay...probably more like this:
W: I don't know if once a week is do-able, but, like you, I hope we resolve these issues, and that we are able to ML at a frequency and quality that makes both of us happy.
Okay, so that's how I hope it goes down. Here is
THE BAD VERSION, brought to you by Schnarch, Inc.:
W: Dream on. Even if we did resolve our differences, which is not likely, I can't imagine ML more than a few times a year. That's enough for me, and it should be enough for you. Anyway, this pressure on me to perform up to your standards, just makes me all the more likely to not want to ML with you at all.
Hairdog: Well, that's a choice you will have to make. If that's the way you see things, however, then my vision of us five years from now is very fuzzy. But ten years from now, if you still feel that way, I think it's fair to say that you and I likely won't be married anymore.
Just thinking out loud.
Hairdog - who is anticipating this vacation with hope and dread.
hairdog,
The fact that she wants to "vision" is a great thing. It offers you an excellent opportunity to exhibit your differentiation, stand up for the things you believe in and practice self-soothing as you do so. Secondly, it offers you the opportunity to differentiate without the topic being sex. My W and I have no issues on the table right now to deal with so I'm a little envious of your position.
My W and I used to never confront each other. Now that we are doing it more often, we are realizing that we actually have a good communication pattern (Gottman) and can laugh and be nice. Sure, she might flood and shut down and walk out of the room sometimes but we always seem to end in a better, more loving and intimate place afterwards. I hate to use this metaphor but if you think of the bond that is formed between war buddies, you'll see how shared, emotional experiences can work in your favor.
In your sitch, this could be a great thing. I think I remember that your W made some concession in her career or location. I sometimes think that there's a relationship between "not following a dream" and LD but I'm not sure. Maybe violating your own integrity creates some self-loathing or something...but it's not our problem to solve, it's theirs if they want to have the marriage last.
If you guys were fairly physical in the beginning of the marriage, there is no reason not to let her know that those activities contributed greatly to the reasons you were married and happy in the beginning and that you desire a life like that. I just erased 3 paragraphs that explained how to do the PM thing and discussing the sex life but the more I started thinking about it, I realized that it might just be best to work through the visioning process and pay close attention to times in your conversation where you want to disagree with something she says. These "points" are going to become "jewels" for your differentiation practice. You don't have to win, but you will have an opportunity to be "heard".
I'm also not saying you should avoid talking about your desire to have a more passionate marriage. I think there's a place in there for it but you should also try to listen empathetically to whatever is motivating your W to want this change. I've played out lots of convos in my head but in the end it should just be straight forward in terms of what you want and giving them a clear 2-choice dilemma. I've always wanted to ask my W questions like "you really don't want to ML at all?" and get into a huge discussion etc. But all that talk is a waste of time and energy because it really doesn't do us any good to try to get into their head. It's not our job to accommodate their behaviors that negatively affect us (and the R) so don't even bring it up. WAIT, let me repeat this in another way... It's a violation of our own integrity to accommodate ANY behavior that negatively affects us. Therefore, their lack of desire needs to be handled "situationally" instead of generally. Tim is doing a good job of being considerate about his W's allergies but he's not backing down either. If her allergies persisted for 6 months, then I would expect that she's figured out a way to deal with it bed with Tim. I've got an oozing, blistered, poison-ivy arm and it really made me self-conscious about coming home and wanting to ML. But last night, I wore a black, long sleeve shirt...problem solved. Of course, I'm HD.
I'm rambling. Sorry hd.
HD,
I think you are on to something here! The convo sounded great and you articulated your feelings in a clear but concise way. Continue to stand your ground because no doubt she will retort with, "Well then you are right--we will not be married in ten years if that is your requirement." Then you will have another opportunity to remind her that this is HER choice to make and that you are only telling her your true feelings.
One suggestion I was going to make was to NOT have this discussion on vacation--why ruin the good feelings you have going on? Everyone looks forward to vacation and a big, heavy discussion on the trip there would dampen that, imo. Why not have it this weekend and have some sort of resolution or answer in place by the time you leave? I understand that the drive will give you lots of time in which to discuss it but it sounded like a short conversation to me and I doubt she will want to go in depth about it, anyway, at least not right away.
We are all pulling for you; this sounds so promising!
HP
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the female-superior position
Yeah. Great visuals. But one nice side-effect is that she gets great stimulation and it's easier for me to control myself. Finishing that way doesn't allow the rest of my body to come into play. We usually roll over.
I'm with grislen and hairdog and other starving HD husbands: this is difficult to read, especially at work, especially after a fight this morning.
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One suggestion I was going to make was to NOT have this discussion on vacation--
But it's the 800lbs gorilla. Trying to ignore it doesn't really make one more comfortable.
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But ten years from now, if you still feel that way, I think it's fair to say that you and I likely won't be married anymore.
Hairdog, I think you're on the right track, but I think your time frames are a cop-out. Why so long? These issues really don't take that long to work out if you're working on it. I'd say five months should really tell the tale, but I'd also (if I were you) expect positive results within five weeks. The two-choice dilemma (and standing up for yourself) means that you take a position based on self-integrity, and you will not accept anything less. You let her know that she has a choice to make, and that you will be making your own decisions based on the choice you see her making. It really doesn't take five years to get to that point. With such a long "deadline", she still has no real incentive to change - she'll just figure you'll forget all about it by then, or wimp out again. I know, it's scary to take a stand, but take it you must...
Thanks everyone who responded. I agree, AtlDave that I want to avoid the long, drawn out R conversation that my W and I tend to have. It's beginning to sound like a tape recorder on an endless loop. We never seem to resolve very much. I think just putting my heartfelt desire out there (making myself vulnerable), telling her what I see as her choices to make, and then telling her what the consequences of those choices will be is the best way to do it. I'm sure she will want to drag me into the usual mix, but I can be pretty stubborn, so if I go there, it's only because I let myself do it, which I need to try to avoid.
As for having this conversation on vacation, I'll just have to see how it goes. I was kind of envisioning it during the ride home, but I will have to figure out when is appropriate.
As for the time frames being a cop out, are they really? I say that the 5 year outlook is fuzzy, which means that it is not certain we'll be married then. Remember, I am really devoted to my daughter, and seeing that she ends up okay. It is a question I will have to ask myself (if W won't work on the R): Can I be a better father to her away from W? This is the question I answered "yes" to for other reasons with my 1st wife. Here, I would have to balance the damages of growing up in a house where the mom and dad obviously don't care for each other, versus the damage of growing up in a divorced family. That's a hard one...and there have been lots of debates on those issues on this board and elsewhere.
I am trying to be optimistic about all of this. Thanks, Effexor!
Hairdog - living better through chemistry.
HD:
Unaffectionate couples are TERRIBLE for their children. Will your daughter become another LD woman like her mother. Kids learn a lot about marriage by watching Mom and Dad. I think the same with my 3 boys, they are seeing a completely passionless marrriage. I do NOT want them to think this is normal, and thus do the same in their own marriages. I think to that PM says that children grow up to be as differentiated as their parents. I am thinking my wife is VERY similar to her Natural Mother and her Adopted mother, 2 of the most FRIDGID women I have ever seen. My wife has changed to be just like them. So we both have a problem, divorce is bad, but unaffectionate marriages ALSO are bad for the children. Maybe, divorce and then finding someone that if more HD will allow us to find a PM and to express this in FRONT of the children.
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Can I be a better father to her away from W?
A better question might be "Will she be able to have a better relationship with my W if I'm not obviously being made unhappy by her".
My Dad stuck it out in a terrible relationship with my "shopaholic, rage-aholic" mother, largely because of his 4 daughters. He got back together with her after separating twice because he was afraid (rightly so) that she was neglecting my youngest sister.He died recently and though my sisters and I are grateful that he did what he could for us, we are deeply saddened when we think about the sacrifices he had to make. Kids always sense what is really going on in a marriage and though maybe someday I can forgive my Mom for things she did to me, I will find it harder to forgive her for what she did to my Dad.
Though your daughter obviously won't know the details of your sex life, she'll still be able to sense that in some way Mommy is being mean to Daddy and she will probably want to take your side in the fight.
I'm sorry if this is a depressing post,but I keep having thoughts along this line because it seems like all you HD guys have daughters.
RE: Affection and sexuality
The two are related but not necessarily mandatory for each other. You can be affectionate w/o being sexual. Anyone with children understands this. You can still be affectionate with your LDS.
Just how, I haven't figured out yet - although I'm trying to work with 1-Cor-13 (Love is...). That is, to love my wife, be nice, supportive even if I don't ever get to ML again. It is to take a bad situation and make it as sane as possible. My spouse's behavior or shortcomings are no excuse for me not to act properly (ie affectionate) towards her.
One message this may give to children is that in your opinion the child is worth everything you've done for him/her.
This is unconditional love - and it's gotta be the hardest thing I've ever attempted... with lots of "one step forward and two steps back" scenerios. But, I feel like I've tried everything else.
Tom
I think it's better to show the kids that you can work through issues in a loving way and not sacrifice your sense of self or integrity in the process. I would hate to think that my daughter would blindly follow the whims of a spouse out of fear that he would leave her. "Unconditional love" and "fruitless giving" should only be applied to children...otherwise, it sounds too hollywood. Well, let me revise that statement...Loving and giving should be a joy and I cannot see how giving to someone who exhibits behaviors counter to your integrity and to the detriment of a relationship could be joyful. It sounds masochistic to engage in that without adequately standing up for what you expect and want in your relationship.
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Loving and giving should be a joy and I cannot see how giving to someone who exhibits behaviors counter to your integrity and to the detriment of a relationship could be joyful. It sounds masochistic to engage in that without adequately standing up for what you expect and want in your relationship
That is beautiful, Dave. You've expressed so clearly exactly what I've been feeling lately. I am mad as hell at myself for behaving like such a masochist in my relationship.
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Loving and giving should be a joy and I cannot see how giving to someone who exhibits behaviors counter to your integrity and to the detriment of a relationship could be joyful.
Excellent point. However, loving someone doesn't require giving up your integrety, let alone your soul. Christians have an example of how this can be done. Jesus was nobody's fool. He set healthy boundaries. He told the Pharasis just what he thought of them - and he did it with love. Peace was a goal, but it was secondary to integrety, truth and love.
As I said, it's the hardest thing I've ever attempted, but nothing else is/was working.
Tom
MM wrote:
I am mad as hell at myself for behaving like such a masochist in my relationship.
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Ditto! For 22 years I've had an inner knowing to do what PM says (differentiate with a 2 choice dilemma) about our sex life, but never did. I've always thought I was angry because my W didn't confront her intimacy/sex issues. After reading PM (up to chap 12) and examining myself, I now see that I've really been mad at myself for violating my own integrity in this area.
Mike - refusing to live this way any longer
Wait till you see where it goes after Chapter 12... it's wild!
Thanks again to everyone who chimed in. I'm about ready to head home for the weekend, and I don't get as much time to get online when W is around. I don't know what I'm going to do when I'm on vacation and can't get online. Maybe we need an SSM hotline of "mentors" to call when we need immediate advice.
Hairdog - still working on being Schnarch-a-licious.
It's so clear to me now that by bending over backwards to be a better wife than my mother was and have a better marriage than my parents did, I've done myself and the relationship damage by being a total wimp! I've also set a bad example for my children. My son(15) thinks he deserves all sorts of personal service (for example he thinks I should fetch him a pop from the fridge anytime he's thirsty) because I'm always trying to do things for my H in order to reduce his stress in the hope that I might get some action.
HD wrote:
Maybe we need an SSM hotline of "mentors" to call when we need immediate advice.
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I think I know which ones I'd call...and none of them are the guys.
Mike - pretty sure he'd be banned from the hotline for turning it into phone sex
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Hairdog - still working on being Schnarch-a-licious.
Can somebody assemble more variations and references to Schnarch's name? This is getting hilarious. I would like to send it to him.
Schnarched
Schnarching
Schnarchly
Schnarcastic
Schnarch-a-licious
pre-Schnarchian
great white Schnarch
Schnarch, Inc.
Schnarch the herald, HDs sing, glory to the king of schwing!
How 'bout "We had a Schnarchin' good time last night!".
Dave, what HAVE you been smokin'? Take it easy... you don't wanna hurt yourself. You seem like you've gone through a glass Schnarchly...
I come back to a wild thread. Self-soothing, sexual positions and setting a bad example. Self-soothing for me takes on two forms. One form is about liking myself as my self. I encourage my self to keep on trying. The other form is masterbating. I rather do that than cheat on spouse. Sexual positions, that is right it is called a reverse cowgirl. A lot of fun. Here is a challege for you. Using your hands and arms for support either outside his legs or inside, slide down until just the head is in and slowly turn, just holding that position. Alternate, after you slide all the way down, turn and come up, then turn again and take the world tour.
By the way, Our kids do pick up our ways. If wife is frigid she can pass it on. Fortunely my Mom was so unhappy in her frigid state I decided I was gonna make sure my H was well f**ked. What I didn't count on was running into a frigid, mean-spirited man. Nor was I prepared to deal with someone using the withholding of sex as a behavior control switch. All three of my children are HD. S32, D32, and D33 all have their hands full dealing with being HD. I got 20 "offical" grandkids.
And I am not gonna hit myself anywhere when I think of sex, I will just use that energy elsewhere.