To anyone:
Is it worth the effort to fix my sex starved marriage when I know that my wife will probably never really have desire for me, but has to "Fake" desire for me to make me happy. I now know why Dr. Laura has said many times on the radio to women, "NEVER tell your husband that you do not desire sex with him". My wife has said this many times, and I guess that the damage is done and probably can never be undone. Can I be happy EVER with this woman since I know that any solution to the problem requires her to "FAKE" desire for me. That's the way it is now, and I almost feel like a rapists at times. I don't wish to spend the rest of my life with her "Giving" me sex, I want her to agressively "Take/Want" sex from me.
Have you clearly told her this, CeMar? If so, what was her response?
Does your W acknowledged that the difference in your sexual desires is having a negative effect on the marriage? This would be a key step.
CeMar, I think there is a VERY big difference between "Lack of desire" and "Lack of response". In your W's case, which is it, or both? I mean, when you DO ml, is she unable to be aroused? Or does it just mean you always have to initiate? If it's just the initiation thing, but she is open to LM fairly regularly, and then does get aroused once "festivities" commence, you MAY not have such a terribly big problem, other than your own attitude...
heavyheart:
Both of us know there are problems in the marriage today. But her lack of desire goes way back to the first few years of marriage. You know, she pulled the old bait and switch. We had great sex for four years, then children come along and the libido went to nothing. The affection went the same way as the sex as well, so this is not just a sex problem, it is a sex AND affection problem, usually they go hand-in-hand. Right now I am still in the "Let's Build a Great Marriage phase". Sex is only a pices of this, but it is the piece that in the end will either make or break the "Great Marriage" for me.
Have you read the SSM book, CeMar? If so, go back and read it again (the part written for the HD spouse). I'm in the midst of reading it right now, so it's all very fresh in my head that the book responds to much of what you are saying here. I'm not saying the book holds all the answers, or that things WILL (or won't) get better in your M, but you might find some solace and/or some fresh approaches in it. Hope this helps. Also, since your W had desire early in marriage it's still got to be there somewhere, just hidden away probably. Who knows, maybe there is a medical reason. Another good book is "Rekindling Desire" by B & E McCarthy.
tim47:
Arrousal is not the problem, once I get her motivated, she has little problem. Her "Desire" is the problem. It's kind of like being married to a corpse today. During the "GOOD" years of our relationship (the first 4 years) we made love everyday, we kissed lots everyday, we held hands, we flirted, SHE INITIATED SEX on occasion, and most importantly, she gave BJ's with earnest. Then children came and her libido went south and has continued to get worse. THe AFFECTION also died. So my issue is not just about sex, it is affection AND sex that died. I want them both back. The key here is that the affection and sex were great when she had DESIRE. She no longer has any desire for sex, she has told me many times that if she never had sex again, that would be ok with her. Obviously there are many physical as well as relational problems. I am working with her on the relational problems, but I really believe that even if they all get fixed, she still will not have "Desire". For a women without desire, it is VERY hard work for her to be affectionate and sensous. How many ND woman want to give BJ's, ESPECIALLY WITHOUT ASKING. My wife USED to be like that. To me, BJ's is the ULTIMATE act of affection. The key to being lovers is that both wish to pleasure the other. Can a woman want to pleasure her man without having desire? That seems to be almost an impossible task for a ND woman. At the age of 45, my desire for sex is higher then ever, yet my desire for my wife is declining, since I find it very hard to desire someone and NOT have that desire in return. All I want is for her to be the women she was, not the women she is. It just seems to be all about desire, and it's just not there.
heavyheart:
There is a passage in the book where a guy raises this very issue. He now realizes that his wife does not desire sex with him, and even if the frequency could be brought up to his level of liking, he openly wonders if this is enough, since he KNOWS he is not desired! I am like many HD males, I see desire and love as the SAME THING. Could I love a women and not desire her sexually, NO! I read all these books and they tell me that if I meet all her needs, then she will "Desire" me, but it does nto seem to work that way. TO be honest about it, I want a woman that acts like the HD women on these boards. But I see no hope for a ND woman EVER getting even remotely close to acting like that. If being sensual requires work, there is no way the ND spouse can keep it up.
I agree with you there, CM. As an HD woman myself, I wonder if I could really live the rest of my marriage wondering if my H was having "obligatory" sex with me. Like you, I enjoy being desired and chased a little bit. I know it's a little more difficult for a man to fake desire, but I can still tell when he's really into it and when he's just doing it so I'll get off his back.
I guess what makes my situation different is that my H admits he is LD and says he doesn't want to be that way any more because he knows it is going to mean the end of our marriage. If your wife knew, point blank, that either she has to change (desire is a matter of choice in many ways, not just a physical reaction) or the marriage is over, would she do it? I'm not saying you should give her this ultimatum, but I'm just wondering if she really knows that (a) her lack of desire is having a devastatingly negative effect on the M and (b) there is help for women, like her, who feel a lack of desire.
If she knows these things, and is still choosing the "do nothing" route, then I would say the answer to your original question is no, there is really not much hope left for your M. And, if that's the case, I think it's an awfully selfish move on her part to not even want to TRY to make things better.
CeMar:
Don't 'think.' KNOW.
What tangible steps have you taken in the last 6 months to communicate with your wife about the state of your marriage. What have you specifically asked her to address with you, and in what manner?
How has she responded?
Corri
Corri:
I have recently talked with the wife. We dicussed our problems with the marriage, but very little about sex. I am more interested in working towards a "Great Marriage" which would have to include great sex. I specifically asked her if we could work together to build a great marriage. Unfortunately her answer was she did not know. However, we still continued to have a very heartfelt, bonding type conversation for quite a long time, and that made me feel better. I am taking her out to dinner here in a few days for our 16th anniversery, and I will continue my discuassions with her about finding more areas that we can address together. It is baby steps, but it is something. My big concern that keeps nagging me is that can a person that has no desire for sex or affection, can they actually be a sexy and affectionate person. There will not be a succesful solution for us until my wife is able to be affectionate or sensual to me WITHOUT any assistance on my part. I no longer want to BEG for affection or sex. It must come from her and be HEARTFELT. And it is EASY to determine if it is heartfelt versus mechanical. I don't want to spend months or years working to change my realtionship and then find out it is not possible to change a ND woman.
CeMar,
I know you've read many (if not all) of my posts, so you
know I understand your POV re: desire and love. However, I'm wondering about your
approach to the problem, and your definition of what success would look like. I do, however, see several hopeful signs in your sitch. First, you say that sex was great for the first four years, until the kids came along. From your descriptions, it seems like at that time, it was not only the
quality that was great, but also the
quantity and
frequency. That, right there, puts you MILES ahead of my sitch. For me, once we got married, the frequency and quantity seemed to dwindle off right away. The
quality was still there, however (meaning that when we DID ml, we both generally had a great time). However, I
do recall that increasingly it seemed to be rather a chore for her to attain arousal. Quite often, we'd start, and she would request a back-rub, or a tummy-rub, which seemed to me very artificial, and detracted (for me) from the loving nature of the sex. That was BEFORE the kids came. BJ's were ALWAYS completely out of the question for her. I remember at least one time when she DID give me one, but she first had to wash it (with soap!), and she obviously didn't enjoy it, so I didn't "press the point" (sorry for the bad pun!).
Anyway, it sounds like your R was way better sexually in the beginning than mine was. Of course, for BOTH of us, things did eventually turn sour, and stayed that way for a VERY long time. Now, your main question or issue seems to be "When do I get my W back?" You're focussed on having things get back to "the way they were", and you're VERY clear that in your mind, if she does not initiate, and give you unasked-for BJ's, and otherwise mind-blowing sex, she doesn't love you.
I hear you! You know I do. However, a great deal is different now than in the beginning. You have young kids (sorry, I can't remember how many, but your oldest must be around 12). That in itself changes quite a bit. Privacy is much more difficult to come by, and spontenaety almost impossible. There are now, by definition, a LOT of other things on her mind (and yours), such that even having an intimate and loving
conversation over a dinner out is very difficult (try NOT talking about the kids for a whole hour, let alone a whole evening). So perhaps "Can things be the way they were in the beginning" is not the right question.
For me, the BIG question is: "Can things be better than they are right now?" Again, for
me, there's hardly any way to go but up! I've been down so long, it LOOKS like up. Cliche, I know, but true. And I, like you, equate sex with love, but maybe in a different way. I
do agree that if the ONLY sex we ever had came across as "pity sex", and she just could NOT get aroused, and I could NOT satisfy her, then I would NOT see much point in continuing the M. I would conclude she just didn't love me. However, if we are able to reach a point where she can ACCEPT my advances more often than not, and reach arousal with me, and I'm able to satisfy her, then it wouldn't really matter to me WHO initiates most often. I would not equate her lack of initiation as a sign of lack of desire, nor would it indicate to me a lack of love, as long as I was able to initiate successfully fairly often. "Fairly often" in my definition at this point would be > 1/week on average. Note that for a VERY long time, for us it's been < 8/
YEAR on average. So maybe I'm just coming from the standpoint of the starving man in the desert, for whom ANY improvement is a gift. I don't know.
Another thing... has she read SSM? Sorry, I can't remember. I assume she has for the moment... what was her reaction to that? She sounds like a
perfect "just do it" candidate, like her arousal cycle is more <initiation><doing><arousal> instead of <thinking><arousal><initiation><doing>. Our cycles are more like the second. She may need the ACT now to BECOME aroused. IMHO, that does NOT signal a lack of love, just a different approach required. I know in my case, I have
definitely often though that W would be happy never to ML again. She never came right out and SAID it, and maybe that's the difference, but she didn't have to - the evidence has been VERY clear on that point. HOWEVER, it may be just that she doesn't THINK about it. Certainly W has not been willing to be OPEN to the possibility for a long time, and has not been responsive to my advances, and this has been (and, I expect, will continue to be) a BIG problem for us, but I'm hopeful we can get past that if we're both motivated to work on it. She now knows that the alternative is to lose me. For me, I think it will be enough if she can be open to accept my advances and respond to me when I try to initiate, as well as adopting a more open-minded attitude to different kinds of sex. Could I still be kidding myself? Possibly. But I do think it sounds to me like YOU have a lot more to work with in this department than I do. However, I do know that if I defined success as reaching a point where W would be HOT for me (i.e. experience arousal prior to initiation) then my M would probably be doomed, because she may never become like that. Am I making any sense here? Or am I just confused? Dunno...
CeMar!!!
F'ing fantastic!! I am so impressed with you and the positive mental attitude coming from I could almost fall over.
You seem to me to be a very analytical type of person, always thinking, always processing, always looking... and that's okay. But in the process of 'moving forward,' don't forget to enjoy where you are.
I hope you can take some of Tim's advice to heart -- try not to define success too narrowly... I'm not saying what you want it narrow, I'm saying, try to leave yourself open to experience success in whatever form it comes... otherwise, you may be setting yourself up for failure.
No one can answer the question about your wife's desire. I certainly understand that you don't want to beg for anything, and I don't blame you. But this sentence:
Quote:
There will not be a succesful solution for us until my wife is able to be affectionate or sensual to me WITHOUT any assistance on my part.
that one kinda scares me. That is a very specific definition of what you EXPECT from her, and if that expectation is not fulfilled, then the entire situation is a bust -- you are allowing her no room or freedom to be her. And let's be honest, I'm sure if you thought there was anything you could do to 'help' her be more affectionate or sensual with you, you'd be all over it in 2 seconds flat.
I think what you might be saying, and correct me if I am wrong, is that what you want more than anything from her is a reason to hope, you'd like to see some genuine effort on her part, and if you can get it, you'd like a written guarantee that if/when she gets cured, that she stays cured.
I understand that a great marriage includes great sex, but right now, you are the only one defining what 'great sex' is. I'm glad you are clear on what you want, but give the definition some room for what she might want, too. Otherwise, any effort she might make toward that end is going to be lost on you, and she is going to need you to be supportive rather than critical of her efforts. See?
Just a thought.
Corri
Who are we kidding? Our spouses need to feel some serious pressure before they commit to change. My C even made this point to me today that I've been too "easy going"....hence my anger issues etc. Motivation doesn't happen magically. Why are *WE* taking the "hits" to the relationship. Why are *WE* so pathetic that we have to suck up to them and their approval, then hang on every single gesture that they make?
I think one of the most interesting things about us (ssm forum people) is that we are looking to improve the sex because we need the sex. So we avoid putting pressure on the spouse to "really" overhaul the relationship because of fear of no sex...OR they give us just enough to make us loose our motivation to address the really hard things that need to be fixed.
Sorry...I'm just ranting right now.
AD:
Stop. Breathe. Relax.
You have some issues. Your W has some issues. There are plenty of issues to go around. But there is no reason to be 'angry.' You are in the midst of a lot of blame here, and blame isn't going to get you anywhere.
Look at where you are. Look at where you want to go. You've got a 'plan,' so just add a few parts patience into the mix and get yourself back into your groove.
Your situation is not hopeless, you are not helpless... you have regurgitated issues today that have understandably upset you, but keep things in perspective. It's fine to have emotions, it's fine to recognize them, but that does not mean they have to move in, take over, and poison your mind, your day or your attitude.
K?
Corri
Thanks Corri...I'm sorry.
When I was talking to the counselor today and talking about some of the issues with my W, I never indicated any of my emotions or expressed the fact that I was in fact "angry". She completely blew me away when she responded with "....and that's why you are feeling so much anger". I thought "what? I never said I was angry....how did you know that?"
Once again, Dave, watch that C! Don't let her put words in your mouth, and DON'T let her ambush and blame your W. You'll regret that if she does. You are feeling very vulnerable right now, and if the C is backing your side, you'll very understandably feel very validated, even vindicated. GO SLOW! Realize that a LOT of C's have their own agenda, and their own issues, which they can transfer over onto the patient(s) with great ease.
No, I am NOT anti-C, W and I have been through 2 C's in the past 3 years. The first one, both W and I agreed was no good. He was just plain useless. The second one, I liked very much, and thought she was doing some really useful stuff with us, but W didn't feel she (W) "got enough sympathy" from her. Mind you, there were NO blame-games in those sessions. We saw her for over 6 months, but in the end we were no further ahead. My impression was W wasn't really cooperating in the therapy. W goes to a new C this Thursday... it'll be interesting to see what happens...
Yah,
Thanks to this board, I went there with my radar on. This will be an interesting experiment because I WILL pay very close attention to the dynamics between the 3 of us. I have known all along that my W needs to be "challenged" by somebody. She is a notorious "chicken" when it comes to anything difficult. I hope this C can draw her in enough to eventually draw her out...but maybe they will gang up on me which will be fine too because I truly want to change and nothing inspires change like the double-barreled estrogen gun.
Dave,
I'm confused. You had a great day with your wife and she surprised you with the Kama Sutra stuff. Then the very next day, you are struggling with anger. What gives?
Are you saying that the counseling session brought up some hairy issues that you are struggling to deal with? If so, then that is legitimate but I would really not let on to the W that you are feeling this way. You BOTH have issues to work through and I'm sure you would be very upset if you had AOS'd your ass off, only to have her go to counseling the next day and come home and be pissed off at you for things from years past. Let her have her Kama Sutra victory. She deserves it. She needs to feel your praise and thankfulness and appreciation for her efforts or, quite frankly, she will stop.
Realize that your marriage is sick and the counselor brought that out into the light. This is not NEW news to you, you already knew that.
Like the others, I would be VERY suspicious of a counselor who immediately went to town on my H (who wasn't there) and didn't call me on my sucky behaviors. However, I am a notoriously honest person and I would have been extremely upfront with her from the start, in terms of what I do to contribute to the situation.
Which brings me to my final question: What do you think YOU do to contribute to how things have deteriorated?
I hope it doesn't seem like I am picking on you but you have GOT to stop thinking about your wife and how she should change this and that, and start thinking about yourself and what you intend to do in that arena. Your wife does need to change but no amount of vigilance and hyper-watchfulness on your part will accomplish that.
In conclusion, Dude your situation is lookin' up!!!!!! You blew us all away with the Kama Sutra stuff (if you think my H would ever go for something like that, you're nutz). You have a lot of good things going on in your situation and we are all so happy for you.
Honey
Honeypot...this is the natural reaction to the situation. When someone in the R actually does change, the other person is forced to react. Now, we would all like to think they'll be overjoyed, but instead they feel some initial anger.
This is EXACTLY how my WAW behaved since my HD came back. Instead of being happy she was angry and hurt. Now....I think with PATIENCE Dave can carry on.
My WAW is still angry/hurt/pissed and I honestly don't think that will change until she acknowledges her role.
Corri:
Quote:
That is a very specific definition of what you EXPECT from her, and if that expectation is not fulfilled, then the entire situation is a bust -- you are allowing her no room or freedom to be her.
If being unaffectionate and unsexual is the "Real" her, then the "real" her is unacceptable. An unaffectionate and unsexual women, I would not wish that on my worst enemy. I want my original wife back, she was fun to be with. My current wife has absolutely nothing to offer relationship wise that is of any value to me. The only thing that keeps me here is the kids.
What is success, when I feel "Desired". That's it, something VERY SIMPLE!
CeMar:
<<<<<<<<<< SHRILL WHISTLE >>>>>>>>>>>>
Posting foul!! 2 minute penalty. You took what I said out of context. Please understand that I hear you, but I think you missed what I was driving at.
Quote:
There will not be a succesful solution for us until my wife is able to be affectionate or sensual to me WITHOUT any assistance on my part.
That is what you originally said. The -- WITHOUT any assistance on my part -- is what bothered me, and what it was that I responded to.
Quote:
That is a very specific definition of what you EXPECT from her, and if that expectation is not fulfilled, then the entire situation is a bust -- you are allowing her no room or freedom to be her. And let's be honest, I'm sure if you thought there was anything you could do to 'help' her be more affectionate or sensual with you, you'd be all over it in 2 seconds flat.
So what you are saying is:
1. She must be who she used to be
2. She must desire you
3. She must desire you without any assistance (effort?) on your part
Is that what you are saying? (I'm asking to make sure I understand you clearly).
I just think that when you bring two people together, stick them in a house, give them kids to attend, jobs, etc., someone is going to change, and in order for the machine to keep working, it will take effort on the part of both parties. I would never, ever tell you that I think your wife is trying -- at least based on the things you have said -- the whole point to my response is, if she is willing to FIX this and really try to find/express her desire, she may need your help -- that may require some effort on your part.
If you EXPECT her to follow 1-3 above, I think you are setting yourself up for failure... you want to go back to what you used to be, instead of moving forward to see what you can create TOGETHER with who you are now. No one can go back.
If I misunderstood your point, then I apologize.
Corri
Thanks honeypot,
Regarding my contribution- Since we've been working on the R, I've been completely "engaged" in the R and family. W says that I'm being a superstar H these days and absolutely loves her "new husband".
Regarding how I contributed to the demise - It's irrelevant and off limits to conversations that my W and I have. We have both claimed responsibility and agree that we both engaged in behaviors that polarized us.
The C session was scheduled before the big kama sutra surprise on a day I was feeling crappy. I told my W yesterday (before the session), that it was all about me working through some things I've wanted to change in my behavior for years, regain my motivation in certain areas and to cope with my dying dad. When I got back, I was noticeably "jiggety" again but I was able to (truthfully) blow it off due to a headache and the fact that I wasn't certain if I thought I liked this C.
Now, regarding Sunday night. I really wanted to avoid being negative and sharing what really happened but my W did some things that made our "alone time" barely tolerable. When she bought the gift last week, she committed to playing with it Sun night. We watched the Sopranos which we always do and at 10 (thanks to spring forward she wasn't tired), I said alright, "let's go up". She said, "do you think we can watch some of this new show Deadwood? I hear it's good". WTF?!!! This was so wrong on so many levels....
1. She was essentially saying that she didn't care about "our time".
2. The one time a year when she would have any energy after 10pm, she wants to waste it on a show.
3. She was auditioning another series when we should be trying to find some quiet time together.
Listen, I've let go of my "polarizing" behaviors...she hasn't tried to change a single one of hers. The TV thing is a BIG one. Sure, she's making *some* efforts but I keep seeing a strong resistance to the idea of being closer to me. Read on.
So, when I got to the bedroom and was able to use the bathroom (she locks the door...even just to brush her teeth), I brushed mine and cleaned up a little bit. She was under the covers with her "frumpy" nightgown on, light off, head on the pillow and in "sleep" mode (if that makes sense). I asked "I thought we were going to have time together". Her response..."oh yah...get the stuff out and I'll give you a back rub". I'm not kidding about this. That's how the session started. I "heated" the session up and got it to become sexual but there was absolutely 0 enthusiasm from my W. Actually, there was "avoidance" and a hope that I would "forget". She's just acting really weird these days...she saying one thing but acting the oposite way. She says I'm a super-hubby now, she commits to "times", but then freaks right when we get together.
Honey, this is not an isolated incident. She did something almost identical to this a couple weeks ago where she looked at the clock, pulled back the covers, pushed me down on the bed and started to try to "service me". She played it off as a role play of "being aggressive". She doesn't understand that my desire would be for her to "aggressively want me to ML to her"...not aggressively "service me". Big difference between the 2.
I want to confront her about this "bedroom" behavior. I also want to bring up the whole TV thing. I'm always too scared to rock the boat because I love having a peaceful house (alarm, alarm...stinkin' thinkin' alert). Assertiveness is a skill that the C can help me with. Who knows.
She's simply not being honest with me about *something*...it's obvious. And this makes me think that the issue is much deeper than it appears.
Anyway, i think the best thing I can do is to get myself back into a semi-emotionally-divorced state of mind but continue the good behaviors. This will allow me to wait for her to change some things without me getting these "jiggety" feelings. Don't take this idea as "harsh", it's not. It's just that my current vigilance is excessive and I need to temper it so I'm not going nuts over all these little things. That might actually solve alot of this. I just wish she would tell me.
"Suspension of Disbelief"...that's going to be the title of my next journal here because that's both of our biggest problem. We both sweep the R flaws under the rug and have been able to pretend that the house is clean.
I've got to stop. This is making me depressed.
Corri:
Quote:
1. She must be who she used to be
2. She must desire you
3. She must desire you without any assistance (effort?) on your part
1) No she does not have to be what she once was. I only refer to what once was, only because that is the part of the marriage that was actually good for me. The current state of the marriage sucks. I am open to any change that is better in the future, maybe even better then the OLD marriage?
2) Must she desire me? Well, again, my only reference point for when my marriage was good was when she had desire. Is this a requirement, no. But how often does a women acually solve this SSM problem with out SOME form of desire returning.
3) No assistance from me. Not completely accurate. Sure, I need to make me a desirable guy to her. Yes I need to meet her needs. That would be assistance. Will I initiate most of the time, yes. But relationships have to be two-way streets. Currently, 100% of all physical touching of ANY kind comes from me. This is absolutly wrong. I need her to initiate some of the physical touch, but less then 50% of the time. Unfortunately, to get serious love bank deposits, she must be the initiator. And this applies to all sex AND affection.
From what I have discussed, it is obvious that desire has a MAJOR impact on the chances for success. Solutions to marital problems require something that requires as little effort as possible so that BOTH spouses can meet the needs of the other CHEERFULLY. WIthout desire, the taks just gets about 100x harder.
I'm agreeing with CeMar on some of his points. Most of the touching in my M is initiated by me. My W often lays there like a lump while I hug her, or kiss her. It's not fun. When she does take the intiative and touch me, I have to be careful and not react in kind because she will immediately withdraw, and often will accuse me of taking and innocent touch and trying to taking it to the next level. Sigh.
Quote:
Anyway, i think the best thing I can do is to get myself back into a semi-emotionally-divorced state of mind but continue the good behaviors. This will allow me to wait for her to change some things without me getting these "jiggety" feelings. Don't take this idea as "harsh", it's not. It's just that my current vigilance is excessive and I need to temper it so I'm not going nuts over all these little things. That might actually solve alot of this. I just wish she would tell me.
Wow, AD...wow wow WOW. Your W and my H sound a lot a like (right down to the "let's find a new TV show to get addicted to so we can avoid spending quality time with the spouse"). As someone who has chosen the "emotional divorce" route with H, I can say that it only works for a little while, but eventually those pent-up feelings of frustration and hostility come out in ways you wouldn't expect. You'll find yourself NOT wanting to be super-hubby anymore when you're not getting much in return, and you'll do little things to sabotage the relationship - all to avoid what is REALLY on your mind.
Of course, the advantage of the emotional divorce is you have no expectations of change from your spouse. Maybe, if you are able to keep up the ED long enough, you eventually start to feel like that is a normal state of being. In my case, I started the ED process a few years ago and was snapped back into reality by H's bawling "I want us to be more intimate" revelation 11 days ago. The sh*tty part is that, with much help from this board I might add, I decided to come out of my ED state and give the marriage a chance to be real again, and I feel I'm getting kicked in the nads for it. (Even though I don't even have nads!)
So if you do choose the ED route beware that there are times she might come out of her shell a little, but I would recommend against being foolish enough to completely let yourself back out of YOUR shell because chances are she'll just pop right back into hers. I'm starting to think H had his "revelation" only as a test to see if I still really loved him. Now that he is satisfied the "real" me was hiding in there somewhere, he's back to denial mode and still reading his stupid-ass car magazines and PROMISES to get to the changing-himself (and read SSM book) mode as soon as he is finished with the latest issue.
All this while he says this issue is a PRIORITY for him. Ha!
Rant rant rant. Could I be any more pissy today??? And please nobody tell me to be patient. Sh*t, I've been patient for YEARS. When is it going to be MY turn to be the real me again? I'm wondering if that can ever really happen with H. The proof is in the pudding, and his pudding is TV shows and car magazines.
Quote:
We both sweep the R flaws under the rug and have been able to pretend that the house is clean.
Wow, AD, HH...wow wow WOW. Wow! Ow! Ohhh...Godddd...
It's REALLY hard to believe so many similarities. I even identify about the ED. That's been my state for YEARS (too many to count). I really wish they had a "crying" graemlin here, although I suspect it would see ENTIRELY too much use.
I really believe at this point the "going dark" of ED is totally useless, unless you just want this to go on and on and on and on and... That's why I'm making the efforts I am. That's why I've said to W, in so many words, "This is the last time. If I find myself back in that desert, I'm taking the first available off-ramp."
Dave, I hear you about the conflict-avoidance thing... just know that all it does is drag this thing out longer. W and I are EXACTLY where we were 5 years ago, even 10 years ago. It doesn't make anything better. I no longer even believe that my kids have benefitted in any real way... I think all I've taught them in the meantime is how to have a sh!tty marriage... 
Hey Tim...Even though this situation totally sucks sometimes, it's still nice to know there are people here who understand.
- Heavyheart, who tossed her H's latest car magazine in the garbage today but later realized it was a stupid PA move on her part so went out and retrieved it (and who is still trying to figure out how to explain to him why his magazine now smells like poopy diaper).
Thanks, HH... you're right.. it really DOES help knowing there are people right here who DO understand where I'm coming from, and aren't judging me or faulting me or telling me it's all in my head. There were WAY too many years when I felt TOTALLY alone...
Oh man HH:
Wow wow wow wow...HH, my W said to me a couple months ago "I'd like to get more intimate"...KABOOM. I was out of the ED and back to getting my nuts stepped on, rejected, and humiliated.
The similarities in our sitch is scary.
Everytime I read "ED" I'm initially thinking "erectile dysfunction." Wonder if there's any way we can differentiate between the abbreviations for emotional divorce and erectile dysfunction.
Hey Dave,
I'm not tryin to pick on you...don't you hate when people start their messages like that, lol.
BUT!!!!! Ah, you knew it was coming..
But, I understand that you have swept your old behaviors away that contributed to the demise, but what I was really asking is this: Do you think that you have successfully eliminated those old behaviors but perhaps substituted them with others?
I think that it is all too easy for us HD people to sit back and think, It is all 'their' problem and I am waiting for it to be fixed.
Well you know that this is not going to happen. And that's in regards to sex or finances or whatever the problem might be. Is it possible that your new "vigilance" on this topic is the NEW contributor? Or is it possible that there is something else?
All I'm saying is that there ARE things that I do to contribute to my own situation, even now, after all these years of trying to find a permanent resolution. I still haven't learned! UGH.
But if I'm having a day where I want to bash H and just am reading into his every little action (and there's a lot to read and I suspect that I am right on, with most of my ASSumptions), then I also force myself to scrutinize my own behavior and sure enough there is ALWAYS something there that needs immediate attention.
That was my challenge to you. Is there something that you are currently contributing to the situation? Cause all you can really do is focus on yourself...focusing on Mrs. Dave is a dead-end road. You will be disappointed in what you see, or don't see. It is inevitable.
Oh and speaking of the emotional divorce, hey, I'm not sure I see anything terribly wrong with it. Maybe not a FULL divorce but this is a time of transition for both of you and there is no need to open yourself up so much that you are hurt by the lack of big strides (and only see baby steps) and therefore shut down even more than you would have. Just do whatever feels natural at that moment.
Hope you had a good night!
Hugs,
Honey
Quote:
The similarities in our sitch is scary.
It's such a double-edged sword, isn't it? On the one hand I wish there was nobody else on the planet going through what I'm going through. On the other hand, I am SO relieved to have found you all. I think it's really helped me to post here rather than taking stuff out on H.
After another he-doesn't-get-it conversation with H before bedtime, I laid awake for 2 hours in the middle of the night last night and, in my groggy state, it was almost like I could FEEL myself trying to put my heart back in the ED box and part of me was saying "no, no, he'll change this time, he'll read the book, really he will" and the other part was saying "lock that heart back up and throw away the key, stay in this marriage for the kids and forget about having any passion". It was at that point I really, truly felt I was going insane. I came *this* close to waking up H and begging him to help me because I thought I was going to lose it.
Then, of course, I played "the conversation" over in my head again. What he would ask, what I would say, his response about me being obsessed with sex, him falling back asleep, me feeling even more crazy than if I'd just not woken him up, yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah, my HD life and welcome to it.
If only our LD spouses knew of the hours we've spent in bed while they're asleep, wishing they would somehow magically wake up and want to ML to us right then and there. I think the worst part of the whole HD experience is the wishing and hoping.
DBR told me yesterday I needed to do a 180, but I couldn't last night.
- Heavyheart, who is feeling hopelessly in love with her husband, but hopeless about their marriage
Quote:
Everytime I read "ED" I'm initially thinking "erectile dysfunction." Wonder if there's any way we can differentiate between the abbreviations for emotional divorce and erectile dysfunction.
I was kinda thinking that too. How 'bout EMD for "emotional divorce"? I'm fresh out of brilliant ideas today.
HH
Yes!!!!! Too many hours awake pondering everything. I can't seem to put my heart on the line this time. I can't seem to find the strength to fight for my marriage as we have been through this before, and I find I do not desire him anymore
Its as if we are just comfortable living like roommates. Five years ago I would have given anything to have him want to make things better. I know I am as much to blame as he is for letting him pull everything away from me without a fight, but after the first 2 times I just could not put my heart on the line again. I don't know if I ever can. He has hugged me and given me little peck kisses, and I feel nothing but friendship. I know I should tell him all this, but I can't bring myself to hurt him that way.
I do know all the sleepless nights you have layed awake, I did that too for years. I hope things get better for you and H.
Annette......... who ponders
Thanks Annette. How long have you been married? I can definitely see myself getting to where you're at. That's one of the late night ponderings I was having last night. I was thinking about DBR's WAW and how she says she doesn't even desire him anymore, and WISHING I could just get to that point with my H. As much as I want a passionate/sexual marriage, I've often prayed that God would just take away my sex drive and let me live peacefully as roomies with my H. Things would definitely be easier if we were both LD.
I'm so sorry you have gone through the sleepless nights. It is hard, as an HD woman, to feel like there isn't something wrong with you because society says it should be the other way around.
HH, We have been married 21 years. We went through a period where everything was ok, I was busy with the dogs and my son, but still remember times where I literaly begged him to ML with me. I, too, have at times prayed for my libido to disappear. It doesn't seem so hard now that I really do not care if I ever ML with him or not, but want that with someone else. So sorry you have to go through all this too. I agree, its horrible to be the woman and be the HD spouse. I thought something was terribly wrong with me at first, but am so glad I found this website and the SSM book. I now know there are many more of us out there. Keep yer chin up.
Annette
HH,
I have had basically a platonic marriage for over 10 years and it is still hell, but of a very unfulfilled sort. You know that you won't be touched, held, kissed, carressed, and God Forbid, ML to, except with GREAT reluctance. This is not a marriage but a business realtionship and I and others like me deserve to have our marriage vows honored by our spouses. They won't so why should we?
I often ache so much that I am in pain, I burn for affection, or even acknowledgement that I am a woman. He won't go to counseling, his hormonal levels are just fine, so it is psychological with him.
You lose yourself in the doubt, the anger, the unfulfilled life that you know is within you but can never come out. If you even make the mearest hint of intimacy, not includung sex, the wall gets higher and thicker.
No, do not ask for a platonic realtionship, it is hell..and I cannot do this any more, so we are getting a Divorce. He made the decision not to work on the marriage, I've tried for years, and nothing has worked. I deserve a man that love me like a woman and a wife, not as a roommate or a mother.
Johanna
I find my self in complete agreement with CeMar that DESIRE is the Holy Grail of happiness and have been puzzling how to get there. I have started reading "His Needs, Her Needs" which is interesting because it is the first book I've read that I don't identify with and believe that most of us SSMers would not identify with it either. The book is based on the stereotypical assumption that men crave sex and women crave affection and that a man can get sex by giving affection and a woman can get affection by giving sex. OK that is probably true for the 80% (or whatever it is) of couples who fit the stereotype but one thing that is obvious from reading this forum is that we are all very similar and our Rs do not fit this stereotype at all. In our cases it is the HD (man or woman) that craves both the sex and the affection and the LD spouse craves neither. The book says to the man “Give more affection and get more sex” but if we give more affection it has the opposite effect on our LDWs. The book says to the woman “Give more sex and get more affection” but the more available she makes herself the less her LDH wants her.
Understanding that our traditional (and instinctive) methods are not working we concentrate on LLs and do all manner of household chores, gift giving, quality conversation etc. none of which creates a feeling of desire in our spouses.
The worry is that it is a genetic trait and there is nothing that can be done to restore, nurture and grow desire in a person that is genetically incapable of feeling it.
SD
SD:
I think your confusion is coming from the way you define 'affection.' I'm willing to bet that the 'affection' you are thinking of is different than what the author is talking about.
Let me ask you. If you replaced the word 'affection' in that book with whatever Love Language you think your wife might be, would it make any more sense to you?
Corri
I wish I could Corri but as yet I don't know what if any LL she leans towards. I have a feeling it is probably "Great wealth" but that is a tough one to provide.
SD
"Have sex for the sake of having sex. Any other reason, i.e. money, affection, presents, etc... is just plain stupid. Do it, and do it often!" Didn't it seem like that was the way it was when you were dating?? I would give my right arm if it could be that simple again.
SD:
Do you have the 5LL book? If not, go out and get it. Read it in private and see if you can figure out her LL. Then you can start trying things with her to see how she responds... and she won't worry about the psychobabble 'crap,' you know?
There could be something to the Quality Time, Quality Conversation, so start there. Be more empathetic. Really listen to what she says... when she is talking to you, look her in the eye, physcially lean toward her when she speaks, don't interrupt, but encourage her to expound more on her thoughts... compliment her on her perception of things, tell her you never thought of something that way, how interesting... affirm what she is saying, and try to build on it, kind of like Cemar did on the LD Space thread to my post... use kind and encouraging words with her, and stay away, for now, from anything that has to do with the 'physical,'... just see what happens.
It may not be THE thing for her, but if it is... then you know, hm?
Corri
Corri,
I have the 5LL book and have tried them all. Of course my interpretation of them may be wrong. For example I do quite a lot of housework but I feel that is not really an act of service in a romantic sense like say cleaning her muddy boots without being asked.
She gets annoyed if I mention "Love Tank" and any other psychobabble term so I have to tread carefully. She does respond to Quality Time and I enjoy conversing with her. We are best friends for sure but her desire for me is low but I have a feeling that things are getting better. We are having a lot more sex (every two weeks for the last two months instead of once every three months) which I managed to negotiate in the rather cold light of day but it is a start that I feel can be built on. Today is sex day but she is having her period and she would rather not but I'm sure she had a glint in her eye when she requested I not initiate anything tonight. I am quite happy overall although it is a bumpy ride.
SD
Quote:
Keep yer chin up.
I dunno. Sometimes I look at all you HD'ers who have been going through this for 10-15-20+ years and wondering if I should still get out while I have a fighting chance at a sex life with someone else.
Quote:
No, do not ask for a platonic realtionship, it is hell..and I cannot do this any more, so we are getting a Divorce. He made the decision not to work on the marriage, I've tried for years, and nothing has worked. I deserve a man that love me like a woman and a wife, not as a roommate or a mother.
I'm so sorry it's ending in D for you. I completely understand how you've gotten to this point. What was your H's reaction when you told him you wanted a D? Did he really just not care at all - even at that point? It's so sad.
I moved out for about 2 months, moved back in due to holidays, son being home, yada, yada, yada. Absolutely no change in him except the wall went up higher and is thicker.
Talked to him about what he wanted to do. He does not and will not change, will not even consider therapy with someone trained in sexual dysfunctions (went to C for 3-4 sessions, C suggested specialist in sexual dysfunction, H stalled to make appointments since therapy was through his insurance.) "It's all just psychobabble anyway, " is a favorite saying of his.
Essentially to him, if mariage is so much work, why bother? His statement that he never, ever wanted to touch me again sent chills down my spine. Why? Because he never has any desire and, well, that's just fine with him. Thanks for thinking about me and my needs, you
b@st@rd!!!He wants a D because he does not want to find out or even explore his a-sexuality. He might find out somethings about himself that he cannot handle. Like there are some emotions in there? Think Spock. Very intelligent, witty, shy, but NO EMOTION. Never wants to touch or be touched.
I just can't do this anymore, and I know I have not pushed but I was not emotionally ready to file and move forward. Been going through some very serioud grieving fo rthe death of what little bit of a marriage I had, and trying not to blame myself for it. Well, it takes two, and one of use just wanted to be roommates for the vast majotity of our marriage. Yesterday was our 16th wedding anniversary and no acknowledgement.
Unless both people agree, a platonic marriage is utter hell..
Johanna
Johanna
I agree, a platonic marriage is hell. Not for the LD spouse, they like it that way! My H watches so much TV sometimes I just want to throw it out the window. I got home early today, about 3 hours before he did, and I had no desire to turn the boob tube on. As soon as he walked in the door, the remote got picked up and it was turned on. He will spend hours sitting in there watching Sci-fi or something else, but won't spend any time on anything else that doesn't suit him. I asked him to read SSM back in Janurary. I have seen it move to different places and the bookmark is about 1/4 of the way into the book, but now is under a bunch of stuff on the table.
I maintain that if the LD spouse doesn't want to work on the marriage, its not going to work. JMHO
Annette
Quote:
Well, it takes two, and one of use just wanted to be roommates for the vast majotity of our marriage.
Was it like that before you got married, or was it a gradual decline? I knew my H had sexual issues before we married, but I thought it was a lack of confidence combined with guilt from his very-Christian mom because we were living together. Stupid me!
Quote:
I maintain that if the LD spouse doesn't want to work on the marriage, its not going to work.
I agree with you - it really seems that way. Unless the HD spouse does a "180" which means gives up on sex and hopes/prays to become LD. It's so sad.
There was desire and modest passion in him before marriage. He was not comfy with intimacy before marriage, said that he would feel better about it after marriage. The bit of desire and passion that he did have plumeted after marriage.
I can remember before our 1st anniversary starting to ask what was wrong? No response other than silence.
Johanna
HH
I have done so many 180s I can't count. Each time he claims to want to work on the marriage. I have to admit, this time he is more thoughtfull ie: a few hugs here and there and a kiss good night and hello/bye (peck of a kiss) but that has been it. We are still in separate beds. And the really sad part is now I don't care if he changes or not, and even sadder, I would leave if I could afford to. I now have no desire for him. But I have desire, just not for him anymore
Annette
SuperDave:
We are getting shafted twice. We have spouses that do not want sex OR affection. Michelle explains it in the SSM. Women that do nat want sex, ofetn avoid affection as well since they are so closely related. These are the absolute toughest case to fix. Dr. Laura even says that women like this are HOPELESS. I really hope she is wrong, but I have seen no examples on her to prove her otherwise.
CeMar,
I have a theory that I'm clinging on to desperately. I believe that sex can build desire for affection and for more sex. I guess I'm lucky in that my W has come round to the idea (after many years) that ML is not that bad even though she has no desire for it. She has no excuse anymore - the children are older, we are financially OK, we have a nice house and cars etc. I am hoping that if I can get to once per week she may even quite look forward to it and maybe that can lead to enjoying affection and sex. Just a theory.
SD
SuperDave,
I think your theory has validity; and as I recall, Michele says something similar in her book.
Last week, I had an epiphany or revelation in which I realized that I'd been blaming my husband for problems in our marriage but didn't see or want to accept responsibility for my own unkindness and unloving attitude and behaviors.
Michele writes about a couple where the wife doesn't realize how hurt and rejected her husband feels when she turns him down for sex. That could have been me but with some other issues thrown in.
Tomorrow I'm going to start a thread similar to your journal showing what's happening in my marriage now that I'm trying as hard as I can to meet my husband's needs, especially for sexual intimacy, and, as Cemar says, to really desire my husband (in other words, not to just go through the motions as though scratching an itch).
In just 4 days, the results are stunning to me (long intimate conversations, lots of affection from him, a couple dozen roses from him last night, a more relaxed and happier husband, and lots of soul searching and remorse on my part). We never had a problem with sexual hangups or physical problems; I simply thought I was too busy or tired or I was irritated at him. He'd been rejected so often (although I didn't see it as rejection) that he often didn't ask. When he did ask, the sex seemed to be very good; it just wasn't as often as he really wanted.
Anyway, I've been initiating every night for the last few nights (and offering and giving foot and back massages, too) and have apologized for rejecting him in the past (I feel like I could never apologize enough, and he tells me that it's water under the bridge and not to worry about it).
I love him and he's a very good, considerate, and skillful lover, but I've seen sex as me doing something for him. Until last night. I woke up late at night (actually early this morning) and wanted very much for him to want me.
And, I realized what Cemar's been talking about. It wasn't that I simply wanted him to have sex with me (although the sexual desire was definitely there and surprisingly strong). I needed him to want me. He woke up, asked me what I wanted, and I told him I wanted him. We made love, which was wonderful, but I laid there afterwards with tears running down my cheeks (I didn't want to keep him awake because I didn't even know why I was crying).
And, I finally realized after more than 20 years of marriage that what kept me from allowing myself to truly desire him through our marriage was that it made me feel vulnerable, that this went far beyond mere sex and involved trust and intimacy and emotional vulnerability.
And, I wonder how in the world he was able to tolerate his own feelings of being rejected and still love and stay married to me. I don't know if this will make any sense, and I'm still trying to figure out what's going on; plus I'm starting to feel a little anxious about being vulnerable. My biggest hurdle over the next few months will be to stay the course and not push him away as in the past when I start feeling too vulnerable.
But, to get back to your point, after only 4 nights of us making love and being more affectionate and loving with each other (and to his credit, his behavior has been very reinforcing and everything that I want deep down), my sexual desire for him has come back with a vengeance. Now, all I have to do (all I have to do?) is to keep from ruining things like before. And, this is going to have to be something I take responsibility for because I see now that I have the real problem with intimacy and trust, not him.
Michlynn,
I just wanted to thank you for sharing this with us. I stopped reading this in the middle and started crying, it was very touching.
Quote:
And, I finally realized after more than 20 years of marriage that what kept me from allowing myself to truly desire him through our marriage was that it made me feel vulnerable, that this went far beyond mere sex and involved trust and intimacy and emotional vulnerability.
Sex is very vulnerable, isn't it? And I suspect it is even more so for women than for men.
Jonathan
michlynn:
What makes sex vulnerable to a women? I have a feeling trhat my wife is similar. Trust and intimacy are also issues with her. Look at the poor guys, I guess we are vulnerable. If we try to initiate and get turned down, we have just received a crushing blow to our self respect. We ge turned down MOST of the time. So you LD women are DESTROYING your husbands one piece at a time. But if you women start initiating sex with your HD spouse, you will probably never be turned down. SO what is this VULNERABLE thing? I need to understand this so I can better understand my own wife.
And by the way, from what I have read, the more sex a women has, the more she will want even more sex. Women that have mastered the desire for sex have a far greater capacity for sex then even the most HD men out there. There are only so many orgasms that a man can have in a week, but there is no limit for women. Practice makes perfect for women.
SuperDave:
At least according to what I have read. Practice makes perfect with women. The more they get in touch with their bodies, the more they will want sex.
Hey. I been dealing with a nasty little spy-ware called sandboxer. It keeps me off my own computer and I think it's in the broadband line. Plus, I'm back to work and we are in deep financial dodo. CeMar, you didn't tell your wife the "corpse" thought did you? I'm still crying over my H calling me a mummifed corpse when refering to our love making because I don't make a enough noise in bed. I know the lack of noise on my part dates back to my first H and his "teasing" me at a party in front of all our friends about how much noise I made back then. Then the children started invading and I "learned" to be quietier. Plus, he has a script I must follow if I want to prove I am having fun. I just don't think of sex in same terms he does. I am willing to unlearn the quiet but he doesn't have time to teach what I should already know.
I think ordinary men feel that you should get it, get over it or fix it and leave them alone. I think average men feel that if they have to change their approach that it is not worth it. I don't mean average and ordinary like a put down I maen it like that's the way you have always been and your Dad was the same way and Mom never complained and I thought you said being married would be fun kinda immature whine. Maybe that's why we "all of us HD and LD" have to learn to put our feelings aside and learn a new and better way of communicating. Even if it means, doing things way different than our parents did.
Please don't say the mean things. I'll be up crying all night over someone else and my H will use it as proof that I care more about other people than I do him.
Whatwillbe,
I'm sorry to read about how your husband hurt you. It must be very difficult to open up and trust somebody who acts as though he cares very little about your feelings.
Cemar,
I don't think it's a good idea to generalize about women and sex. My vulnerability comes mostly from being molested once or twice when I was a very young child combined with my upbringing.
My husband and I have talked a lot this weekend, and he says that he did sometimes feel rejected by me. On the other hand, he wouldn't call that feeling of being rejected a "crushing blow" to his self-respect or a feeling of being "destroyed bit by bit". He's self-confident and successful; and he knows about my issues from childhood and even has some of his own. In fact, his reply to my apologies was to tell me not to worry about it, that it's all water under the bridge, and to bring me roses.
There is a disparity in our sexual desire with him desiring it more often than I did. When we do make love, it's usually quite good for both of us; and he knows that he can ask for almost anything (manual, oral, intercourse, combinations, different positions) and get it.
Also, perhaps I'm different from most women, but I suspect that I'm not in that I'm finding that my desire for my husband increases as the amount of physical intimacy with him increases. That does not, however, translate into more orgasms with him or even the desire for more intercourse. It simply means that I want to be intimate with him, to touch him, to be touched by him, etc. Dr. Harley in his book, His Needs, Her Needs, explains to men that their wives often don't need or want to climax. I'm sure some women do, but I often don't because it takes too much of my focus and attention. My husband knows that he can bring me to orgasm if that's what I want, but he knows that often I don't want that, that it's often more relaxing and fulfilling for me to concentrate on pleasing him or to concentrate on other senses (touch, taste, smell, etc.) while we're making love.
Michlynn: I'm sitting here wondering how I could get your thoughts/philosophy into my W's head. First, I want to congratulate you on being motivated, and on finding your desire again. High FIVE! Second, I was thinking that the "vulnerable" thing may be what is going on with my W. She is fiercely independent and I think that sometimes she sees sex as letting me get TOO close to her, invading her private world. She's never been a very vocal lover, which is fine (but different than my past experiences), but maybe that's because she's afraid to "let go" with me. So now, she comes up with all these excuses, reasons, etc. to NOT ML with me, so she never has to feel vulnerable.
Just rambling...but very interested (as CeMar is), in finding out more details on your vulnerability ... how you dealt with it early in the R when we are all lusting after our partners; how you started feeling vulnerable with your H; what made you decide to change.
Hairdog, whose anti-depressants haven't kicked in this morning.
michlynn:
My wife is more ND, I think maybe you were slightly LD. My wife has told me that if she never has sex again that would be ok with her, it's just not that big a deal for her. She is "Willing" to meet my need for sex, and that is flat out not good enough. She grew up in a rotten home, no father around, and no mother around most of the time after she turned 9. From the age of 9 on, she pretty much raised all the other children in her family. I believe that she was sexaully assualted by one of the mothers boyfriends. She definitely was neglected for most of her childhood. When I married her though she was HD, we made love everyday. As soon as the first kid was born after 2 years, the sex drive dropped offsteadily and hass never returned, which is what I have been hoping for. That plus some physical problems and it seems like my wife has EVERY excuse possible to be LD/ND.
As far as being different then most women, michlynn, I think that you and your husband are lucky in that you are in the good 50% of the female population, the ones that actually like sex. My wife is in the other 50% of women, the ones that have no real desire for sex, the ones that are making their husbands lives a living h#ll. There is nothing worse then to live with someone that does not DESIRE you. I am glad to see that you and the hubby are working out your issues, he is a VERY lucky man indeed.
Hairdog,
I've been thinking about what you said and am still trying to figure out what's going on with me. I may not be on this board much today since I'm trying to finish up my parents' tax return and then will have to work on my husband's and mine, which is going to be a pain this year, since we have several entries on the dreaded Form 4797 this year.
Things are still going very well between my husband and me with lots of physical affection. We didn't ML last night but only because it was very late by time we went to bed and he has to be up at 6 am. But, I feel like a mess emotionally. On an anxiety scale of 1 through 10 with 10 being the point where I completely avoid caffeine and reach for the Xanax to prevent a panic attack, I'm probably a 7 right now. Yet, I also feel very happy and satisfied (my love bank or love tank is as full as can be). So, I'm happy and feeling emotionally fulfilled but I'm also on the verge of a panic attack. So, what's going on with me? Darned if I know.
Believe it or not, I'm probably more of an optimist than a pessimist although since the birth of my first child I've been a major league worrier, so it's not the happiness that's making me feel vulnerable and scared. The only thing I can think of now is that it's because this happiness and fulfillment is because of my husband; and I can't bear the vulnerability of being dependent on him. I'm scared of being needy and vulnerable (as you can see, the key word here is "vulnerable").
And, whether I'll admit it or not, I love him so much that I need him; and I don't know how to handle that. It scares me, and I don't know what I'd do if I lost him (and I'm not just talking about him leaving, but losing him to a drunk driver or something like that). I think that I'm strictly a one-man woman, and he's the man.
You asked how I dealt with the vulnerability early in the relationship. I have to think about that. Our relationship started like others that I had with one big difference. He's the only man I've known that I didn't want to leave after making love. I had a hard time literally sleeping with a guy after making love with him. He'd usually want to hug or touch, and I'd be hanging off the edge of the bed. I felt more comfortable in my own apartment but would have preferred that my lovers leave after ML. It's as though I really needed the emotional and physical space after ML. But, with my husband, from the first time we made love (we'd dated for 2 or 3 months first), I'd wake up in his arms and hugged tight against him and it didn't bother me. In fact, I loved it, and felt safe and protected for the first time in my life that I could remember. And, as good as it felt, it also made me feel uncomfortable. And, as time went on, I hated and fought against wanting him as much as I did.
He's often said that I run hot and cold, and he's right. But, I don't deliberately or consciously do so.
Hairdog, like I said, I'm still trying to figure this out myself. Meanwhile, what I love about Michele and other counselors such as Willard Harley is that they emphasize action (in other words, just do it) rather than saying that you have to understand why you feel the way you do before changing. The only catch, of course, is that you can only change yourself. I know that I've hurt my husband; I know that I'm responsible for a lot of the problems in our marriage; and I know that I want to change. Thanks to Michele and Willard Harley, I now know how to identify some of the problems and how to make good changes. I couldn't bear to hurt my husband anymore by starting to make changes and then going back to the old ways again. And, fortunately for me, he's very responsive to what I'm doing so it makes it easier to maintain the changes. I just need to make sure that I don't backslide.
Cemar,
I'm sorry about your sitch. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things.
I enjoy sex and I'm very comfortable with it; but I wouldn't say that I have a high sex drive per se. In fact, the first time I had sexual intercourse (when I was in college), I remember being slightly amused and wondering why it was such a big deal especially since I'd been having orgasms for quite some time from long make-out sessions that included minimal or no direct stimulation.
One of my major regrets is that I wish I'd let my husband control the frequency since his drive definitely is higher. If something happened and we couldn't have sex any more, I wouldn't be out cruising trying to find somebody for sex. If the physical urge was there, I know how to obtain physical release. I just can't imagine having sex (probably better identified as ML) with anybody except my husband.
Like the majority of women Willard Harley discussed in his book, His Needs, Her Needs, sex doesn't even make it into my top 5 emotional needs. Affection, including physical affection (and I'd classify ML with my husband as just one of many types of physical affection, including those sessions where I'll happily "do him" while he lies back and doesn't need to do anything himself), is my top need. Unfortunately, my top need is one that I'm often fighting against, which, in turn, has often left my husband deprived of one of his top emotional needs (I think that sex and affection are probably tied as his top 2 emotional needs, which is why I understand what you're saying when you say that you don't just want sex, you also want affection).
Mich:
What you have posted to Hairdog is what I was talking about in the other post I made to you.
You are a cyclical person. You are a person who constantly says, come closer, closer, closer...[panic attack] what the hell are you doing so close!! Back off!! They back WAY off. You feel comfy for a few days, or weeks. Then you start feeling lonely. So you invite them to come closer, closer, closer...
See the cycle?
Understand that what you are facing now is the enemy of your emotions. The only way to break this endless cycle is to 'fall back.' Resist nothing. You have a firm belief in the idea of 'control.' Control is an illusion.
Acknowledge your panic. Welcome it in your space. But do not allow it to 'take over.' Set it over there in the corner of your mind. Tell it it doesn't have to leave, but it cannot take over either. Tell it the two of you are going to have to learn how to co-habitate.
When you feel it creeping up on the scale-o-meter, you are going to have a find a way to divert your attention from it. Exercise is often a good way to do this, and I mean strenuous exercise. Do you jog? Ride a bike? Exhaust yourself physically.
Right now, you are in the midst of battling yourself. Let that be OKAY. Do not seek to rid yourself of this stage, but seek to learn how to LIVE with it. Once you accept it for what it is, yet refuse to give in to it, it will go away.
Corri
Cemar you are obsessed with yourself
, instead of always focusing on your own sexual needs open up your eyes and your mind and hear what your wife is telling you. If you love your wife like you say you do and you seem to like to read, so for your next book may I suggest Allies in Healing (When the Person You Love Was Sexually Abused as a Child) Just maybe, after you have read this book you won't be so thickheaded and really start to hear her. Maybe spend a bit more time with her instead of crying the blues about your lack luster sex life here as you don't seem to get any of the good advice most people hear have been giving you. If you still can't crack that thick head of yours open after reading this book then maybe you should leave your wife and let her find someone that really does care about her. You can then pursue a life in the adult industry and take care of your HD needs.
Glenn68:
I am not obsessed with sex. When I talk about sex, I mean sex and affection. They go hand in hand, restore one and the other might follow. Right now I get neither. Now I am trying to build a great marriage with her. I realize I need to spend time with her, communicate better with her, and I am working on this.
Now for the child abuse, she was never hit, just severely neglected. She may have also been raped, she claims it was only attempted by a drunk. Can you give me a short review of Allies in Healing as to what it might do for my marriage?
Corri,
I can understand how you came to your conclusions based on what I've posted. And, what you said really got me thinking about some of the dynamics in my marriage. But, in thinking back over the years of our marriage and remembering what my therapist said (that my biggest issue is trust), what you said made me realize that I'm not cyclical because I don't invite my husband to come closer. I allow him to come close, but I'd never invite him. He's always been the pursuer, which is more comfortable for me.
And, I think that's the source of the anxiety I'm feeling now. I'm putting myself in a position where I'm vulnerable to rejection, where I'm doing something that feels very unnatural and uncomfortable for me.
I've been trying to think of an analogy, and the closest I can come up with is a dog that's been abused as a puppy. In another post, I used the term "dog happy" referring to how most dogs, including the one we have now, love physical touch such as having their bellies rubbed and being scratched behind the ears, how they'll come up and stand with their tails wagging and a doggy grin expecting and waiting for that physical attention, how a dog that's receiving attention like that gets a blissful look on its face and won't leave until you stop, and now easy it is for us to give attention like that to our dogs rather than to our spouses.
My husband has said that he's like our dog. But, in thinking about what you've read, I realize that I'm not. I used to think I was more like our cat, who's aloof, who'll LET you pet her as though she's doing you a big favor, who'll bite you if you try to pet her when she doesn't want to be petted, etc.
But, I'm not really like our cat either. She simply isn't an affectionate lapcat, and she's very content with her life.
I think instead that I'm like a dog my family had when I was a child that had been abused as a puppy. When we first adopted him, he'd watch us with a wistful or longing look but would run or walk away if you approached him. In the beginning, you could sometimes coax him to come close by offering treats and he would allow you to pet him. His tail would wag (more like a few thumps), and it was obvious that he liked being petted but was uncomfortable. You could never come up on him unexpectedly and pet him or he would turn around and snap or growl at you after which he would stand there shaking expecting to be kicked. After a while, he got to the point that you could approach him and pet him, and he'd even sometimes walk toward you (but never all the way) and wag his tail a couple of times, which was his way of letting you know that you could pet him. But, no matter how much he wanted or craved affection such as petting, he'd never be able to run up to us with complete abandon, tail wagging, expecting to be petted like the dog I have now.
Strangely, or perhaps not so strangely, I felt a kinship with the dog my family had. I was in high school and my family was falling apart with my parents arguing all the time and talking divorce and the kids in the family being ignored. Unexpected high medical bills for one of my sisters had also shifted the entire responsibility of paying for college on me. We lived near a fairly secluded beach (no houses directly on the beach either), and I could walk around there for hours because it was beautiful and relaxing. And, I discovered our dog's "love language"--long walks. We had a yard, so he didn't have to be walked; but I'd usually take him with me for the company and because I sometimes think out loud and you don't look as crazy if you're talking to your dog rather than thin air. And, we'd walk for miles and stop and sit for awhile before starting back home. I'd sit there thinking and sometimes talking to our dog; and he'd sit there next to me and let me pet him with a happy doggy smile on his face and his tail wagging (except when he was happily chasing seagulls). And, at home, I'd walk past him and tell him what a good dog he was and he'd thump his tail a few times and let me pet him; but he never was able to just get up and come to me expecting or asking to be petted. But, he would sometimes run to the door when he saw me and wag his tail, which I assume was his way of saying he wanted to go for a walk.
So, I think the point of this is that I'm like that dog in many ways. Sex itself, meaning the physical part of it, isn't the problem, and I'm lucky in that I've never had flashbacks like some women who have been molested do. Intimacy and trust are the real problems.
But, people aren't dogs; and I've reached a point (my epiphany) where I recognize that I've hurt and rejected my husband by my behavior and attitude and that I can no longer blame him for all the problems in our marriage as before. I've been in therapy, I know that I have a problem trusting, I know the root cause or causes, and I'm tired of just talking and analyzing while nothing really changes. And, what I'm doing now and have been doing since last Thursday is putting myself in a vulnerable position where he can reject me. In doggy terms, I want and really need his attention and I'm finally willing after all these years (and he has shown me over and over that I can trust him) to come all the way to him to ask for his attention and to offer him my attention without being asked, but it's not natural for me and it's extremely uncomfortable (as Michele suggests in her books, I'm finally "doing").
Mich:
Well, you may not 'invite' him to come closer, but you don't stop him either. Omission can be just as much of an invitation as actual encouragement. You aren't STOPPING him, so he moves in closer.
Anyway, right or wrong, you have found your courage to face your anxiety, and THAT is the big battle. Finding ways to comfort yourself and encourage yourself through the new channel is the trick.
You know, when my H and I finally got on our road to recovery, I went back to see my shrink about 3 months later in an all out panic. He asked me what was wrong, he thought things were going so well. And I said, well, they are. That's not my problem. The shrink was a bit confused, of course.
I said to him, 'how do I keep from f'king this up?' I mean, you put me in a sea in the midst of a typhoon and I can navigate those waters, NO PROBLEM. I am having one hell of a time sailing in calm waters. It's almost like I'd be willing to create a storm of my own just so I know what the hell to do!!"
Welcome, my dear, to the sea of smooth sailing.
And that is when he delivered his advice to me on battling the interior demons. Like I said, your feelings are coming at you from years and years of solid training. What you now have to do is move your focus from 'without' to a focus on 'within.'
You know intellectually that the path you are on currently is the one you need to take. Your emotions are screaming at you, NO, NO, DON'T GO THERE! RETREAT, RETREAT!!
You just have to rewire the circuitry. Go slowly with yourself. Acknowledge what you are feeling, but know that just because you are 'feeling' something does not mean you have to ACT upon it. All you can do is practice. Tell your H what you are feeling and experiencing, what you are tempted to do and what you really WANT to do. Give him a heads up, and proceed slowly.
Your willingness and determination to GET OVER it all is what will make you victorious. You are going to be fine. You are now aware, where before you were not. You have all you need to succeed. Trust yourself.
Corri
I've thought a lot about this, and the problem in our marriage wasn't one of me pulling close or letting him get close and then pushing him away. I know that's a cyclical pattern in some relationships but not in ours. Our biggest problem was that I never let him know or acted in any way as though I wanted or desired him and that I had such low expectations of marriage from the beginning that I never thought we'd have a good marriage.
When I was in high school and college, I used to listen to my friends talk about how much they loved their boyfriends and couldn't live without them. I simply couldn't comprehend what they were talking about. While they seemed to worry about finding somebody who would love them as much as they loved in return, I found myself wondering if there was something wrong with me that I didn't see any reason for all that angst and wondered why you'd want to love somebody so much that they could hurt you (nobody ever called me an incurable romantic).
I loved my single life after college as an Air Force officer. I had a good job, independence, respect, money to do as I pleased, lots of travel opportunities, and apartments I loved. There were plenty of great guys around to choose from, and I had a few serial monogamous relationships that usually ended when the guy would start talking about marriage. I wasn't interested in marriage; all the marriages I saw while growing up were miserably unhappy. Even after we married, my husband and I lived apart because we were stationed approx. 100 miles apart and were able to only spend weekends and holidays together. During the week, I could concentrate on my job as could he. Then, we'd get together on the weekends at my apartment or his house and have great sex (we often ended up on the floor in the front foyer Friday evening), but looking back, I see that he always initiated and I responded. Then, I got pregnant and left the military and moved in full-time with him expecting to go back to work after our first son was born; but I found that I didn't want to leave him and became a stay-at-home mom (major adjustment in thinking and goals for me).
Sex was still very good between my husband and me but was becoming much more infrequent. I was often tired and not always feeling good about myself. My husband would ask or try to initiate and I'd sometimes turn him down thinking that was normal (most of our married friends joked about how sex stopped after the wedding ceremony or after the birth of the first child). But, when we did have sex it was good even if I wasn't in the mood to begin with. A few years ago, things really improved sexually when the kids were all in school and my husband had a job where he could come home at lunch. It was great because we weren't tired like we usually were at night, and we didn't have to worry about kids knocking on the door or hearing us. Unfortunately, he has a new job now with a commute, and our lunch sessions are a thing of the past for now.
Both my husband and I grew up in chaotic families, and we both prefer calm and order. We are each other's best friend, we know each other's deep secrets and the things that we don't feel comfortable sharing with other family members.
As I've said, my epiphany came about when I realized that I had hurt my husband not only by saying "no" but probably more so by never trusting him enough to let him know I wanted him, that I really do love him. And, so, because I had such low expectations of marriage and, like the dog that's been abused as a puppy, was always expecting to be hurt again, I tried always to keep a "safe" distance between us albeit not intentionally or knowingly. It's just what felt comfortable or safe to me.
We've had a few doozies of fights over the years (mostly him yelling "WTF do you want from me? You won't let me make you happy. You won't tell me what you want, you only tell me what I do wrong." while I tell him that he's just like his father, who he admires in some ways but doesn't want to be like. Going back to the analogy of the dog that's been abused as a puppy, I think I was so hypervigilant against being hurt that I'd bite first if I felt threatened. My husband would react in pain, and I would go for the kill emotionally ("you're just like your father").
I've always thought that we had a bad marriage because that's what I expected, but now I recognize that we don't. I took Dr. Phil's Relationship Health Profile Test (link is on Tim's Postcards from the Edge thread) and scored a 5. According to Dr. Phil, our marriage is "well above the norm and may have isolated areas in which you can improve." Who'd a thunk it? BTW, the 5 statements were:
6. It's not easy to share my feelings.
13. My partner understands me (I marked false, but how could he understand me when I didn't understand me)
15. My partner doesn't like to share what's on his or her mind (I marked false, but according to the test, that's bad)
17. My relationship is what I always dreamed of (I marked false, but that's because I never dreamed of a relationship)
34. I'm no longer proud of my body (I'm a woman, I've given birth to 3 kids, need I say more? but my husband thinks I'm attractive)
I really need to thank Cemar (and HairDog, Tim, Jonathan, and the Daves) and wish I had some good advice to give. I'd read Cemar's posts about wanting his wife to desire him, to want him, and I'd think that if she simply made love with him, that should count as a gift of love (and it probably would have). But, I think I hear what he's saying. If my husband asked for sex, he was as likely to get it as not. But, my holding back from wanting him and not letting him know that I wanted him in every way as a man (sexually and otherwise) and not letting him know that I admired him left him feeling rejected by me and ultimately that I didn't love him or want him. Cemar, I don't know what to say; I don't want to give you false hope. But, I woke up last Saturday about 4 in the morning with an overwhelming feeling of wanting my husband in every way (and I'm not just talking about sex here). And, after we ML, I cried for 3 hours because I felt vulnerable (and very loved) but would rather feel that than to go back to feeling nothing or fear. The realization that I desired my husband wasn't something that just developed; it had been deeply buried under a lot of fear for many years.
Michelle (the abused dog who's creeping closer each day to the man who loves her and has proven he can be trusted and who she wants more than ever to make blissfully "dog happy")
CeMar first off, you have read SSM, there is a quote in the book that gets repeated often "if it is not working then don't keep trying the same things". You may have been sincerely trying to be more affectionate, and trying to be more desirable, but your focus seems to be only on the sex aspects of the marriage. That may be due to the lack of, but nonetheless, shift your focus.
You ask how Allies for partners may help your marriage, well like other books you will only get what you need out of the book. It just might give you some understanding of what your wife maybe going through from the effects of the child abuse. Now you might think that because she was never hit as a child, just neglected that this couldn't be the problem. Well if she was forced out of her childhood to take care of her brothers and sisters in a capacity that a parent should like you suggest. This has taken her childhood away from her and never let her live out her childhood.
When you say that she pulled the bait and switch routine when your child was born, this is her natural reaction to her childhood and what she has learned. We are a product of our parents and learn all or most of our life skills, morals, beliefs and how to love from what we were taught as children from our parents or guardians. Your wife may have been trying to tell you that but you are not hearing her. Yes, you might have taken the time to listen but you haven't heard her. Open up your mind, eyes, ears and heart… your wife might just surprise you.
As for the Rape or attempted Rape, only she knows what really happened, but stop second guessing her and listen to her, be supportive. She may have not dealt with these tragic incidents or is in denial. This is something that you will never have any control over, as she is the one that has to heal and want to heal. All you can do is be supportive. Don't tell her that this is something she has to do in order to save the marriage or you will drive her further away. I stress this is up to her.
You say that you really want that greater love and happiness in the marriage, then I challenge you to open up your mind and look deep into yourself. Start hearing what you have been saying, reflect on what other people have been saying and most importantly start hearing what your wife has been saying. Not only spoken words but also hearing her body language more.
I know that I have made mistakes in my marriage and I accept responsibility for them. I had always thought that I was somewhat open minded, but when I started to close my mouth more and open my ears and mind I began to see what my wife had been saying and I realized how close minded I really was. I had to read the book twice, as the first time I had no questions, but the second time I had all kinds of questions some of which I'm still trying to find answers for or a better understanding. The book is more geared to help you deal with the possible changes that you and your wife might be going through. If your wife has suffered like you say then I would strongly recommend giving it a chance and read it.
Hope that this will help digest what Cathy47 is saying in the other thread (if you value your kids, then value their dad)
Good luck!
Glenn