Well, folks, I'm stunned.
I can't believe the reaction I got from the letter I wrote to my wife a few days ago. I spent a few hours carefully composing a letter explaining and expressing my feelings and frustrations in a non-sarcastic or judgmental manner and with an extra helping of tenderness and love. I know I get a bit cranky on this message board and vent my steam with y'all but this letter had none of that. I told her how much I loved her and with all sincerity expressed that I felt my love for her was stronger than ever and that I'd like to find ways for us to get closer and I'd like to dialog about that with her sometime. I mentioned SSM book and said it had really helped me to see her point of view better and that it would be helpful to me if she would consider taking a look at it. Didn't say I need more sex or you better give it to me more or anything like that. I said I was frustrated and sad that our relationship didn't include as much intimacy as I'd like. I don't think I could have been more gentle or thoughtful in the letter. She was very nice after reading it and said I was a "sugar-boy" (sweetie) and thought it was well written. She didn't say much else and we just went about our evening normally but enjoying each other's company.
I felt good. I was damn curious to get some feedback but satisfied that she perked up a bit after reading it. I held my tongue for a few days not asking what she thought about what I had written. The letter specifically requested feedback so I could understand how she felt about it. Finally, after we got a few moments together last night I asked what she thought. She said "what do you mean? I enjoyed it, it was well written but there's nothing new there. I already know everything about how you feel."
I was shocked and starting to feel that cold/hot fear clawing its way up from my stomach to my head. She started saying that there is absolutely nothing she could do or talk about since we've been over it before, she was simply not a sexual person and would not even consider trying to change that. She said the relationship was just fine for her, she was truly happy with me and that she loved me very deeply but if I was so frustrated and sexually unhappy I should find someone else to f*** and that we should not be together. My God, I think my my heart split in two and half went spinning off into space. I know she means it. From her vantage point, the only significant problem in our relationship is that I think there is a problem. At that moment I realized that the problem is so much more troubling than just her not wanting to be intimate with me. I realize now that I can’t even talk about anything deep that is bothering me. I can’t trust her now. I’m trapped. She is so close to cutting me loose that if I bring anything up or even appear to be frustrated, sad, depressed or whatever I fear the guillotine is poised to drop and will.
What is so perplexing is that she would rather end an otherwise wonderful relationship, destroy a family than consider tweaking our sex life so that I would be happy. I really am not asking for a ton more. Of course, I’d love a ton more, but I’m willing to be reasonable and settle for somewhere in the middle (1-2 times a week would be a survival level for me, once every month or two is current level) and I want to be able to discuss my feelings without fear of another reaction like the last. She always says she wants me to open up and talk with her what’s going on with me; when I do she reacts in a way that tells me to shut the F up, eat your frustration, don’t burden me with your troubles. She even said “I can only take, babe...I can’t give you more than I’m giving. I know that’s tough on you so maybe we should call it quits. You really need more from a woman.”
I began weeping (something I never do--some 210 lb tough Texan, huh?) and apologized (which pissed her off more) for putting pressure on her. I said I really was very happy with most of the relationship and had absolutely no interest in getting into another “better” relationship; only that I wanted her and that my love had been growing for her. I kissed her and hugged her (she actually let me???) and said I just needed to get it off my chest and that I'd learn how to deal with the frustration. We went to sleep on ok terms. Very weird, but a close call. A few wrong words out of my big mouth and she would have packed up right then.
Although this morning she gave me a little peck and said she loved me I know that I am on probation now and have to be extremely careful not to let her know how I really feel, unless I want to end it.
From her bizzare Jekyl & Hyde reaction I'm almost certain now that this is a chemical issue (I've suspected for a long time) and there is nothing I can do relationship wise to improve things. She simply is not mentally/physically balanced. I am in a giver/taker relationship where one person holds the reins and the whip and the other bows and begs for forgiveness for getting the whip bloody. Am I a masochist?
I love her so much (apparently a defect) I will do anything to stay with her, even if it means swallowing my own sadness and pain. I’m considering talking to my doctor about anti depressants with a libido lowering side effect. It is killing me to let things come to this but I’ve fallen off the cliff and am scratching for a handhold to keep us alive.
What can I do to deal with this?
Dying Aching Man
aching man,
I really do wish I had an answer for you...but then I've had much the same r with my h for far to long now..things seem to be better (well at least I think it's more than once a month now??) they are not where I'd like...I've expressed this "problem" to h in many many ways...he is well aware of how I feel..how the sit makes me feel...and yet because he doesn't feel it I get the "that's just the way I am" "that's just me" so again it is one party having to fully accept one as they are sacrificing their wants and needs simply becuase the other "just isn't that way"
I'm finding what does help me is to look for h expressing love and other types of intimacy in other ways...in other words I'm trying to read his Love Language and accept it and hear it...not a total solution but it is helping (may be a route you'd like to take before going to meds.)
LL
Ache,
Man, I feel for you. I wish I could say something that would help because I know that all of your hopes are probably shattered at the moment. Could it be that your wife is just so sick of the sex issue that she said what she did just to get you off of her back for a while? Being in the same boat, I know how hard it is just to forget about everything you've been trying to accomplish, but maybe losing hope will allow you to move on, and once you're able to do that maybe your wife will eventually have a change of heart. I'm starting to believe that's the only thing that might work for me - and I hate it because in the meantime I feel like the loving, romantic marriage that I dreamed of is going down the toilet.
If I happen to think of anything that might help I'll certainly let you know. Sorry that I don't have more to offer at the moment.
Sooner
Aching Man,
I'm sorry to hear of your sitch. Forget about considering meds. It will not help the problem and may create other problems for yourself. I know you are feeling dissapointed but for now, try not to think about the issue too much. Give it and yourself a rest. Concentrate on the other areas in your life that makes you happy. I am sure there are lots. Don't feel like you are on probation or treading on eggshells around your W. Your W has said that she loves you. Perhaps it would also help to let your W know that you are dissapointed and hurt by her reaction and not that you would learn to deal with your frustration. I find that whenever I told H that I would not bring up the issue again (and I genuinely meant it at the time), he thinks I am okay with it when I am not and then he gets very angry with me when I do bring it up again and is surprised that I would not let the issue rest. As far as H is concerned, he is perfectly happy with the way things are. The only times he is unhappy is when I discuss this. So he probably thinks I am the problem.
I wasnt finished yet but accidently hit the send button.
Quoting AchingMan:
She always says she wants me to open up and talk with her what's going on with me; when I do she reacts in a way that tells me to shut the F up, eat your frustration, don't burden me with your troubles
Have you told her this? I had more thoughts but they escape me now. Sorry I couldn't be of much help. Still trying to help myself too.
LH
A-Man,
I am going to shoot straight. You are coming across as insecure. Your deep affection for your wife almost seems to be just a little smothering. I don't know you, so if I am wrong about that I wouldn't be surprised. But that is my take after reading your message.
But if you agree that you are insecure, you should know that can in itself be a turn-off. Truth be told, men are insecure and men are obsessed with the love in their lives. It does no good to show it, though.
The old saying is "nice guys finish last". The untold saying is that mean guys finish second to last. So who finishes first? Smooth talking, sweet talking, hard-to-get guys finish first. Guys who take risks finish first.
Maybe the first thing to do is go out and get a motorcycle. Or perhaps take flying lessons or try skydiving. Take a few risks. Lately I've been riding my bicycle to work. It's not too dangerous, and it's good for the environment. And I am getting some lusty looks from my wife when I put on those form-fitting bicycle shorts. I pretend not to notice.
So tell your wife dinner was delicious, her hair is extra pretty today, and then go out and play poker with the guys. Be confident, secure, complimentary, and loving. Take a few risks, be a little aloof.
It may not help your marriage, but I think it will help you feel better.
And remember that free advice is worth every penny!
I usually lurk in this forum, but couldn't resist.
WNC, you sound as if you're a Doc Love subscriber. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em. Doc Love has his shortcomings
If you don't know who Doc Love is, check out
www.askmen.com.A-man, the confusion there with your W wanting you to pour your feelings out and then tells you to shut the F up is confusing. She probably is looking for some validation somewhere, and may be picking up whatever you say to her as criticism.
WNC does have a point. Change your R bit by bit (this takes time) by becoming interested in other things too. Don't focus so much on the W or your M. Make your life more interesting and see what happens.
Now... as I always say... my M died a nasty ugly death and I'm D. But sex became an issue for us... and my H went way off on the deep end. However, one of my biggest issues with him was just his lack of interest in anything other than his stupid
computer and mundane stuff around the kids and the house. Became a vicious cycle. I began to withdraw more... started working more myself, started traveling a lot, became less available in a negative way. Just a hint: try to include your W in on more of your more interesting activities. Don't beg or whine or plead... but see if you can spark an interest there.
Good luck.
Thank you all for jumping in with a bunch of great advice. It really helps me. I don’t know what I’d do without this safe place to talk about this stuff. Too bad we can’t all go out for a virtual beer and have a sex starved marriage bashing (not the book, the situation). Since I no longer can discuss anything but the superficial with my wife, I really need others to bounce thoughts off of.
As far as telling her I’m disappointed and hurt by her reaction, there is no way I am going to suffer another response like the last, especially if the whole relationship is at risk. She says she knows I’m aching and that is a turn off for her.Strangely, it seems that if I was no longer sexually interested with her that would be a turn on for her. She didn’t say this but I ‘m just exploring the far out [censored] now. It seems bizarre to me but there might be something there.I wish we could just have a decent cussing fight that I actually get to participate in as an equal, instead of the scolded fool. I think the biggest mistake I’ve made in my relationship is to try to be a sensitive nice guy. It seems counterintuitive to what I’ve always heard about women liking sweet guys but it may not be often the case. Apparently, nice guys do finish last. The problem is that I really enjoy giving. I love to spoil her with little gifts or a nice dinner. I actually derive pleasure from doing nice things for her; I know, I’m a sick and twisted bastard.
WhyNotCheat, some of the points you brought up really made sense to me. I actually chuckled ‘cause I’ve been threatening jokingly with my family about getting a Harley and a couple tatoos. You’re right that my affection is simply too much for her. I know I lay it on too thick for her; I can’t help it, I’m an overly romantic wuss. I know I put way too much into relationships and I expect too much out of them. I’m not happy when those close to me aren’t. I have to harden myself and give myself what I need for a while; let everyone else take their time waking up.
What perplexes me is that she often criticizes and shows disdain/disgust for the smooth-talking hard to get guys with the confidence. Doesn’t make any sense to me. The last couple days I’ve been thinking that maybe I’ve tried to be the man I thought she wanted or needed and maybe I just need to be myself and let her decide if I’m worth being with or not. Maybe saving a relationship at no cost kills the relationship in the end anyway.
Could it be that some people are just not compatible?
AchingMan (maybe I’ll change it to “Aloof Man... able to withstand bullets of rejection”)
Quoting WhyNotCheat:
Truth be told, men are insecure and men are obsessed with the love in their lives. It does no good to show it, though.And remember that free advice is worth every penny!
WNC,
Women are insecure too. Any free advice on how not to turn H off with insecurity?
LH
Quote:
The problem is that I really enjoy giving. I love to spoil her with little gifts or a nice dinner. I actually derive pleasure from doing nice things for her; I know, I’m a sick and twisted bastard.
Nope. If you're sick and twisted, then I must be sick and twisted for enjoying that kind of thing
or an enabler and a co-dependent
That is normal behavior!! Not everyone does it, but there is nothing wrong with it.
There's a book by Chapman called the Five Love Lanugages. Giving/receiving gifts is a love language. Read about it... maybe your W has a different love language?
We must be in a parallel universe. I'm just as stunned by your W's response as you are. Yet, I shouldn't be since I've basically got the same reaction from my W to these kinds of efforts.
I think there is definately something to this tough guy vs nice guy thing. Nice guys aren't a challenge and are thus uninteresting and no longer attractive. My wife's libido turned off the second I put a ring on her finger. And I think the more I have pursued intimacy the less she was interested.
Another interesting thing about my W, I figured out early on in our marriage that backing down in an argument was the worst possible thing I could do. If I remained calm or if I backed down she would get more mad and escalate the argument. But if I got mad and let loose, the argument would at least end instead of escalate, even if it got heated before the end. Its like she would lose respect for me if I didn't get mad back at her and really argue.
Like you, I can't talk to my W anymore. I'll ramble half coherently here instead.
FredD
Hey guys,
Its not true this nice guy vs tough guy thing. My H is a nice guy and thats why I love him and because I love him thats why I lust for him. So don't stop being nice.
About your arguments, I don't think your W loses respect for you if you don't argue back. I'm a bit like that in this respect. Whenever I'm in an argument, I have all these things on my mind that needs to get out and I can't let go of them until its all trashed out. This is very unhealthy of course. My H often backs down from an argument but I do not lose respect for him. In fact I respect him more for being more in control of himself than me but like your W I cannot let go until he argues back and then I feel worse afterwards. Oh well, sometimes people are too emotional for their own good.
LH
Quoting luvhubby:
WNC,
Women are insecure too. Any free advice on how not to turn H off with insecurity?
LH
My advice here is probably no good. I have a difficult time understanding how a low-libido man thinks. Feeling secure, though, comes from knowing who you are and being comfortable with yourself. Everyone is unique, with their own special abilities, talents, and interests. When you know that you don't need your partner to feel good about yourself, that gives you security and comfort. Your partner hopefully makes you feel more complete and happy, building on your self-assurance but not creating it.
But I have no idea if being secure and confident will be attractive to your husband or not. Some men are very turned on by that, others might not be. Regardless, everyone deserves to feel good about themselves.
I get the feeling anyway that you probably do have a good self image and self esteem, at least what I can tell from your postings here. My suggestion is to tell him in your most sultry voice "Help me out of these clothes, I'm really hot". See where that leads...
Quoting WhyNotCheat:
My suggestion is to tell him in your most sultry voice "Help me out of these clothes, I'm really hot". See where that leads...
Thanks for your suggestion. I am afraid it wouldn't work though. H's drive is simply not there. Anytime I mention the lack of intimacy it just stresses him more. I am afraid to try anything and now even afraid to say anything. Otherwise we are happy. The only times we are not is when I mention our SSM state. H is always too tired and has asked me to wait till he has more energy for me. Well, I have waited patiently for weeks, months, more than 1 1/2 years now and it appears to me that it will take much longer. H never has time for intimacy with me anymore, its totally zero, not even once a week or once a month, not even during weekends or on the days when he is on leave because he doesn't make time. His way of relaxing after work is to have a smoke, play a PC game or watch some TV. I used to nag at him because I couldn't understand why he had time for those but not for me and I deeply resented it. However, I realise that that is just very negative behaviour on my part so I went and got us a new PC game and am currently taking turns playing it together with H. We are now having a fun time discussing strategies etc. It hasn't helped my intimate time but at least I have managed to turn my resentment into an opportunity to spend more time together with H. Apart from this, all I can do is continue to be patient, hope and try to remove other stresses from H's life and that includes not being a nag so that he'd come back to a warm and cosy home. H is sweet and helps me a lot with housework etc so I'm also trying to do more although I'm tired and hopefully that will give him more time to catch up with sleep etc leading to more time for me?
By the way, I noticed that you have put a stop to your A and I say Good For You, Keep It Up. These things do eventually catch up with you you know. Before we were married, H cheated on me and I found out about it when a very emotional OW came to my home when I was 7 1/2 months pregnant. Although it still hurts and angers me whenever I think about it, it was a real eye opener to me. Its made me realise that if I don't take care of my man he will just turn elsewhere to get his needs fulfilled, whether it may be sex, intelligent conversation, someone to listen to him or pamper him or whatever it may be.
LH
Quoting luvhubby:
Although it still hurts and angers me whenever I think about it, it was a real eye opener to me. Its made me realise that if I don't take care of my man he will just turn elsewhere to get his needs fulfilled, whether it may be sex, intelligent conversation, someone to listen to him or pamper him or whatever it may be.
My situation is a lot different than yours, our kids are growing up and we've been together almost half of our lives. I try to imagine how I might feel if I discovered my wife having an affair. I'm not sure I would feel any kind of pain or anger. I think I would congratulate the guy on finally figuring out what sparks her flame.
She does have a close male friend (whom I also consider a friend) and I can honestly and unequivocably say I don't feel the tiniest bit of jealousy when they spend time together. I've never suspected the least amount of physical contact. They are simply good friends, and if he provides some things I don't give her, that's great.
Having friends, especially mutual friends, can really add to the relationship. We can't always be all things to our spouses. Hopefully we are the most important thing.
One more thing... although I did cheat, it was not simply because my wife didn't fulfill my sexual needs. It was because after years and years of work and effort to find a solution, I felt I had come to a dead end. Finally I threw my hands up and said "Why Not?". So hopefully it's not as simple as -- "my spouse doesn't give me XYZ, so I will get that somewhere else".
By the way, things have definitely been getting better at home, and it's been these messages with people like you that have been so helpful. Thanks for your support!
Quoting WhyNotCheat:
I try to imagine how I might feel if I discovered my wife having an affair. I'm not sure I would feel any kind of pain or anger. I think I would congratulate the guy on finally figuring out what sparks her flame.
One more thing... although I did cheat, it was not simply because my wife didn't fulfill my sexual needs. It was because after years and years of work and effort to find a solution, I felt I had come to a dead end. Finally I threw my hands up and said "Why Not?". So hopefully it's not as simple as -- "my spouse doesn't give me XYZ, so I will get that somewhere else".
Forgive me if I am wrong WNC, but I get the feeling from reading your posts that you have hardened yourself from years of neglect of certain of your XYZ needs. I think it is as simple as that. Many of those who's sexual needs are not being fulfilled will tell you its not about technique or perhaps not even frequency. It is a fulfillment of a most basic emotional need to feel loved, wanted etc. Therefore if the spouse is willing I think most would be happy with less frequency. It is the unwillingness that gets to most of us.
Dude,
You sound like you are living my life. My wife lost all interest in physical intimacy about 2 weeks after we got married. That was nearly a year ago.
I have tried everything to allow my wife's sex drive to start up. Therapy, physical, doctors, hormone therapy, sex therapy, blah, blah, blah.
She makes it a point to tell me that before we got married that she had plenty of sex but now she just has no drive. What are you gonna do?? I've left the subject alone and forced myself not to think about it for months. We have been in therapy since we got married about this. Nothing seems to matter.
She doen't even see this as a problem. She says sex just is not important to her anymore. She says that the only reason she will work on this is for me...because it is important to me. At the same time she is saying she will work on it...she does nothing. If I bring it up she gets upset and defensive. No matter how kindly and non-confrontationally I broach the subject it always ends the same. I'll try for you but nothing ever changes.
It has been a year now and we are no closer to a healthy sex life than we have ever been. If your wife is like mine she probably has a great sex drive when she is intoxicated.
Just remember one thing....
You could be the best looking, most secure, most confident, smartest, funniest guy in the world but it doesn't mean a damn thing to your wife's lack of interest if SHE is not willing to do the work to change it. It probably has nothing to do with you. If it does, then she should have communicated it to you long before it got to this point. That is not your fault.
Coincidentally, I'm a Texan too.