Is there such thing as a walk-away husband?

Divorcebusting.com

Everything seemed perfect. A little over a week ago my wife and I had the sex argument for the 117th time (that�s actually just a wild guess). But since that time she�s made an obvious effort to touch me occasionally � nothing even remotely sexy, but still a noticeable improvement considering that I�ve felt like a leper for most of our married life. I�m going out of town for business tomorrow and will be gone overnight. I put the girls to bed and got them to sleep, came downstairs, and for once my wife was still up. Her being up at 9:45 p.m. is so rare that I thought she might be interested in doing something romantic. I was excited about the possibility of making love as it�s been roughly two months since we last had sex, but I would have been happy with anything that showed she was interested in me. We watched a little bit of the news in bed then turned off the TV, at which point I tried to cuddle up to her. She didn�t really cuddle back � but she basically tolerated my touching her. Due to the fear of being rejected, I�m scared to death to try anything overly sexy (I didn�t used to be this way at all) so I kind of rubbed her thigh, stomach, etc. without reaching under her clothes, just hoping to get some response. The only response I got was if my hand got within a foot of any obvious erogenous zone, she would grab it and move it away. After not very long, I was hurting so bad that I asked what I was doing wrong, to which she replied �nothing� � acting like she couldn�t imagine what I was talking about. This basically lead into the usual argument, although it was comparatively mild. Now I�m sitting up at 1:45 a.m. and she�s probably now sleeping after being ticked off that I again tried to talk about our relationship and in so doing cut into her sleep time.

I�m starting to lose hope that things will ever get better. The only reason she can give me that our level of intimacy hasn�t improved is that we continue to have this stupid argument. On previous occasions she�s mentioned specific things I�ve done that may have contributed to the problem, but I�ve made great strides in trying to fix anything that I�ve been made aware of. And I think she�d agree. But I can�t continue to be hurt and not eventually break down and say something. I go anywhere from a week to two or three months holding all of the hurt inside, then I have to let it out. I can�t help it � but she acts like I do this deliberately and that I�m the whole reason things aren�t improving. I feel like I�ve done everything possible to show her that I love her and to try and help her feel close to me. Now the only thing I know to do would be to try the opposite. I don�t want to do that, and I�m afraid it will just make her feel less close to me. But I�m open to suggestions.

We regularly say �I love you� to each other, and I obviously do still love her very much � but should I stop saying it? Should I stop acting interested in what�s going on in her life? Should I refuse to show her any affection � no touching, no hugging, no trying to cuddle? Should I start sleeping in another bedroom? Should I stop calling her when I�m at work, running an errand, or out of town? Should I start going out with the guys or get interested in a hobby which keeps me away from home? I�m sure there are lots of other things I could come up with to ask, but you probably get the idea. I honestly don�t think any of these things will help, but I�d be willing to try anything that might. If MPT, KAH, or jen381 happen to read this, please give me your thoughts as you�ve basically been in my wife�s shoes. I realize however that none of you are her and what might help in your situations won�t necessarily help in ours. I had a lot of hope after reading �The Sex-Starved Marriage� but I�m starting to feel like I have no control over what happens in my marriage and that the only way things will ever get better is if my wife has a change of heart.

I�m afraid that if nothing changes I�ll eventually give up and become a �walk-away husband� if that�s possible. The last thing I want is to have an affair, and I�m nowhere close to doing so. My Dad had an affair when I was in Junior High and High School and I�ve seen how it affected him, my mother, my sister ,and myself as well as others that he was close to. But even with my first-hand knowledge that an affair is not the answer, I�m scared to death that someone will come along and make me feel alive and desirable again, and that I�ll be unable to resist the temptation. That�s a long ways off, but I need to find some answers before I get to that point. If anyone reading this hasn�t read my initial thread, it�s posted in this forum and is titled �Sex-Starved and Looking for Advice�. I have no idea how to link to it, but it describes my situation in a lot more detail if anyone cares to read through it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hey Sooner,

I know it seems hopeless right now. I am very sorry to hear about your situation. I have some thoughts for you, but will have to post them later due to time.

Try to stay possitive. You sound like a wonderful and committed H. That's great! There is hope. Will write more later.

Jen

I think you should write her a letter pretty much saying alot of what you wrote here. If you decide to include the affair part, be sure to emphasize that this is something you fear; don't use it as a threat. Emphasize at the beginning how much you love her and you really want to see your marriage succeed.

Let her know you've taken responsibility for whatever role you have played in her lack of desire for sex, including bringing it up so much if that's what she sees as part of the problem. You HAVE taken responsibility and you have been working hard. You have every right to feel very good about yourself for that.

Then let her know you need some interest from her in trying to meet you part way. Acknowledge her recent willingness to touch you more and to let you touch her. From what you've written on this site, it does seem that you will be most appreciative of even the slightest attempt on her part to work on this problem...even if it doesn't immediately lead to phenomenal sex. Let her know that. Tell her about your sense of hopelessness. Tell her you feel she's indifferent to your sense of pain and rejection. Ask her if she really is indifferent.

I don't know how far she's gotten in SSM, if at all. If she hasn't read the part about influences on sexual drive and also the part on the different ways bodies can behave, perhaps you could point this part out to her. Suggesting that maybe hers is a body that warms up once things get started; that some of her lack of interest may be due to a lack of "exercise" so to speak. The use it or lose it idea. Ask her to just be willing to talk about that as a possibility, because there are ways to get started having sex again.

Let her know you're willing to be a patient, loving, and helpful lover, so that she's not alone in trying to restimulate her desire. (This is where I soooo wish I had let my h know how hard I was working on my sexual desire. I think if he had known he would have been just the kind of lover I needed. But old independent, I-don't-need-help, I'm-embarrassed-that-my-body-has-turned-on-me-again me just couldn't share that...but I digress. Sorry.)

In some ways, I really do wish she could read some of the posts here from current and former lower desire spouses, but I think your judgment on that matter is probably on target and it wouldn't be a good idea. Unfortunately, you have the problem of any suggestion you make looking like nothing more than your own self-interest.

I'm really at a loss here, because I felt so bad about not wanting sex and how sad my h seemed that I was highly motivated to find solutions from the beginning. I'm having a hard time thinking up different things that would get your wife started on this path.

What you write here has me wanting to help you. I feel your agony. So you definitely have a way of communicating that evokes empathy, at least here. Is there a difference in the way you communicate here compared to how you communicate with your wife?

I'm concerned that if you withdraw in an extreme way from your wife you will just end up in the "standoff" that Michelle talks about. At the same time, something different about your behavior needs to happen that lets your wife know there are some consequences for continuing to not address the problem. Your emotional pain would be consequence enough for me, but perhaps your wife doesn't fully realize how painful this is for you. She may also be dealing with her own pride and the fact that she feels responsible for your pain. Acknowledging this may be hard for her?

Sooner, I just want things to work out for you so bad!

My thoughts are with you, MPT

One more thought: The bigger issue here for you is that your wife doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to find solutions to something that is causing you pain. It isn't as much about the sex as it is about this. Is that a fair assessment? If so, highlight that issue if you write a letter or have another conversation with your wife. Even if she doesn't feel like she can have sex right now with you, perhaps she will be more willing to take the first steps toward finding solutions if you present your need as being a need for effort on her part rather than a need for sex. This is then more about her interest in your relationship rather than her interest in sex.

jen381 - thank you for your reply. I leave to go out of town after lunch and won't be at a computer until tomorrow night at the earliest so there's no need to rush with your more detailed suggestions. Please take all the time you need - I appreciate any help that I can get but I don't want to derail anyone from dealing with their own problems. I'll look forward to reading what you have to say.

MPT - Thank you again. Your suggestions are always so helpful and I sincerely appreciate your concern. I think your post contains some very good advice which I'm going to print and take with me to think about as I travel over the next couple of days. You asked if there's a difference in the way I communicate here compared to how I communicate with my wife? I always start my communication in a similar manner to how it comes across on here. But I meet so much resistance and hostility right off the bat that everything I wanted to say basically goes out the window. I can always communicate my feelings more eloquently in writing because I have time to think them out. That's the main reason that I think writing a letter may be more effective than trying again to talk to my wife about our relationship. I believe you're right that my wife doesn't fully realize how painful this is for me. If she really understood how badly I'm hurting, I think she'd be more inclined to try and make things better. I tried last night to tell her that I don't blame her for our problems - that I realize she didn't intentionally stop desiring intimacy. But she doesn't believe me when I say that I don't blame her. I think that her pride and the fact that she feels responsible for my pain do keep her from wanting to work with me to fix our problems.

Thank you both so much for caring. I realize there's no magic solution and that there may not be anything new you can say to help me, but last night I didn't know where else to turn. The responses that I get from people on this message board are basically the only thing that keeps me going sometimes.

I completely agree with MPT. Letters or e-mail are the way to go. Carefully worded, they can be quite revealing, yet non-combative.

As my wife an I continue our progress, e-mail has become the preferred method of communication regard the 'issue'. You can write what you think, setup exceptions, and detail the reasoning behind your thoughts. That is difficult for most people to do face to face. Interruptions, kids, etc., all tend to screw up your speech, and that can totally skew the the intended result.

Do speak(write) in kindness. Don't make ultimatums. Don't forget the purpose of rectifying the situation is to correct your *relationship*, albeit the sexual side.

In my situation, I have had to address some issues -caused by me- that directly contributed to the problem. At times, that has certainly been difficult. The outcome is well worth whatever you have to go through to get there.

This morning, after four days of working through my last failing (another "mad on" - see my thread), and a totally unjustified one at that, I awoke to a very damp, freshly showered naked wife cuddled up to me. Let's suffice it to say that I still can't get the stupid grin off my face :-)

Hang in there. Be willing to do your part. Have patience. You may find that she has some serious hurts in the mix as well. One thing is for certain, you will both make mistakes as you work through the issue, even as you try to get started.

Don't give up.

-NOPkins-

Here's an update. Before I went out of town I printed out the threads in this post and used them to help me organize what I wanted to say in a letter to my wife. I got back in town last night and stayed up late to write the letter. As MPT suggested I said a lot of the things that I'd stated in this post, after which I basically went through her other suggestions and put them into my own words. I wrapped up my letter after midnight and left it next to my wife's car keys. This morning when I woke up she had read the letter - as well as a few other things that I hadn't planned on.

I had also printed out several pages of posts, mainly from low desire spouses, that I was considering giving my wife to read, although I hadn't made up my mind yet. After wrapping up my letter last night I forgot to put away the printed versions of both my posts and the other posts. My wife found them this morning next to the computer and read through them. She wasn't mad, but she did say that she felt funny about me posting all of our problems on the internet for the world to see. I can certainly understand her feeling that way, and I would have expected it. I did let her know that I haven't even given out my first name, to which she said "I know". This clued me in that she had gotten online and read some of my posts as I didn't have the user names printed out. Needless to say, knowing that she may be reading my posts may limit the effectiveness of this message board for me in the future. However, I don't plan to stop posting, at the moment anyway, because the support that I've gotten on here has been so helpful.

Although I didn't intend it, the fact that my wife read some of my posts may really help our situation. I was relieved that she wasn't mad, and if nothing else she probably has a much better feel for what I'm going through, how much I truly love her, and the effort that I'm putting into fixing our problems. I'm hopeful that she'll be encouraged to work on them with me, but I suppose only time will tell. Thank you all for your advice - I'll keep you apprised of any developments.

Sooner

Hey sooner,

Last night I spent about an hour writing you a post and I had just finished proof reading and my computer froze up. I lost everything

So I have 10 min. and I will try to sum up what I rambled on about last night.

My H pretty much just gave up on me about 2 years ago. No more initiating. He just started leaving me alone. I don't think he had a master plan. I think after 9 years of rejections he was just tired of the fight.

That gave me some releif. And took some pressure off. But along with leaving me alone sexually he has also left me alone emotionally. No more back rubs (which I used to get daily and I love), sharing of feelings, romance, touching, snuggling, effection, kindness, patience, etc. He went into the "I don't care mode." He told me he didn't think he was in love with me anymore. Ouch.

So It's been about 2 years of this. And I am just now starting to miss him. You see he was so overboard and in my face about it before that it has taken me this long to really miss a "relationship"

About 2 months ago I dawned on me that I missed him and all the lovely things he used to do for me. I missed his smile. I missed our connection. And the passion. I thought: we are to young to be living like this. Everyday was passing us by in monotone, bland, stale sameness.

So I started working on it. Planning weekend trips. Making dates with H so we could talk about our life, goals etc. I went to the book store to get a book on relationships and found SSM instead.

This was exactly what I needed. I can't beging to express to you how much it helped me to understand my H and myself. I cried through most of the book and was in shock that finally someone else understood our problem. So it has helped. We have a long way to go but for me SSM is a foundation on which to build. Like they say "the teacher will come when the student is ready".

So maybe your W just needs a break from you sexually and emotionally. Give her a chance to miss you a little. My H poured his time and energy into restoring old cars, his favorite past time. He spent a lot of time on the phone with his long distance guy friends.

Things are far from perfect with us. I wish he could have expressed to me his feelings the way I hear them in SSM and here so I could have been more understanding. But I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. I am determined now to give my H what he needs to feel loved. I am beginning understand that to truely give means giving the other person what they want, not what you want.

Hope this helps a little.

Warmest Regards
Jen

Jen,

Thank you so much. Your post is really helpful and I appreciate that you went to the trouble to rewrite it after losing everything you'd initially written. That's happened to me before also - it's so aggravating.

It's a little discouraging to know that taking the pressure off of you sexually didn't really help and that your husband had to withdraw emotionally as well for you to miss him. Right now I don't feel like my wife misses being close to me although it's hard to say what's really going on in her mind. I hope that my marriage is not a situation that will have to get worse before it can get better, but I suppose that's possible.

I think that my wife has a lot to think about right now after reading my letter and becoming aware of these posts. I'm planning to leave her alone for a while to let her sort everything out in her own mind. While I'm so happy to see some of the people on this message board making excellent progress in resolving the lack of intimacy in their marriages, I've got to admit that it hurts to know that others have made so much progress within only a month while my situation hasn't changed. I see low desire spouses in marriages that have been sex-starved even longer than mine suddenly initiating sex frequently, planning weekend trips together, and basically reconnecting within a matter of days. And they're both suddenly happy and madly in love again. Yet my wife acts like we have to go through months of continuing to live as roommates before we could possibly get to that point. That's discouraging! If that had been the case when we started dating, it would have taken years to get to our first kiss. Now that I've committed my life to someone with whom I'm madly in love, in her mind we're not close enough to make out, much less make love. If the things that have happened recently to make her more aware of what I'm going through don't have much of an effect, I'm worried that nothing ever will. Guess I should be more optimistic, but it's hard sometimes.

I appreciate your support Jen. Please keep me in mind if you happen to think of anything else that might help.

Sooner

Don't give up hope! Maybe you should make communications very clear? Instead of timidly trying to iniate (after so many years of rejection even trying at all is an act of bravery) I ask straight up. "Do you think we could have sex tonight?" I usually get a pretty clear response. I'm not saying we have sex more because of asking but at least when she says no, its still less rejection than for me have to have tried to initiate physically.

Another thing that has helped me, and I'm sure many might say this is a bad idea, is taking Benadryl an hour before going to bed. Not only does it make me sleepy, it kills my sex drive at the same time. Without it, there were many nights where I was tired as heck but so sexually frustrated I couldn't sleep. Like any "advice" you hear on any message board, consider the source (amateur well wishers) and use your best judgement before following.

Fred, Thanks for your suggestion. I think it's a good one and I'll probably at least give the direct approach a try. However I should probably wait until my wife has had some time to digest everything that I've hit her with in the last couple of days. By the way, I wanted to thank you for some of the things you stated in jen381's thread. You stated so eloquently several things that I've been thinking but haven't managed to put into words. Specifically:

Quote: "My W has thought that once or twice a month was plenty. For me, I'd rather have zero sex than only just once or twice a month. Once or twice a month is only often enough to remind me how good life COULD be. It's like a tease of the good life. If it just never happened at all I'd just accept that it wasn't going to happen and never get my hopes up. Having sex once a month means 29 other nights of hope then rejection."

Quote: "About half an hour after sex I get in the worst mood possible because I start wondering how long I'll have to go without sex again. I just used up my monthly quota. I also get really confused - since the W seemed to really enjoy it why does she only want it once a month?"

Quote: "Without sex I do not feel loved. I can hear a million times "I love you"; or get my favorite meal, or come home to an immaculate house and it means very little when I am sex starved. There is a physical urge that makes me want sex just about every day. I'm not saying I have to have it every day to feel loved. But the physical desire is there every day. More than a few days without sex makes me very irritable. Taking care of my own needs helps reduce the feelings of hurt temporarily and at least takes my mind off of it for a few hours or maybe the rest of the night. But that is only a temporary relief and the feelings of rejection and ultimately anger and resentment return. The longer its been, or the longer I think its going to be until next time, the stronger my hurt feelings."

Quote: "...getting reminded by my W that we had sex "just last week". The feelings I get when I hear that from her are, "So I felt like you loved me one day last week. What about the other six days? What about this week?""

Those statements describe exactly how I feel at times - thank you for putting them into words. Also, MPT's post in that same thread is excellent. I'm so tempted to ask my wife to read it - should I do so or would it be better to leave her alone for the time being? And while I'm in the process of using posts written by others to express how I feel, the following quote from Corri in her post titled "Diving In" is exactly why I miss having a passionate sexual relationship with my wife. Sure I can make her feel good by doing more things for her and supporting her emotionally, but neither of those will make her feel like this:

Quote: "We had the most incredible conversation last night, then topped it off with very nice S...and the smile...the depth of the smile on his face, shining from his eyes...I thought to myself..."I did that...look at that...look at what I was able to make another being...one of the most important beings in my life...feel." Overwhelming."

The way that Corri made her husband feel is exactly the way that I wish I could affect my wife by making love to her. If I could make her feel like that, it seems like all of her other problems and concerns would become so insignificant.

Guess I've gone on long enough here.

Sooner

I think there is a real possibility for quicker turnaround than you might think. You never really know. I certainly thought it would be a long haul for our marriage to get to the point we are at now.

My h and I have been having a lot of really good talks about the whole sex thing recently. He had an interesting take on things and I asked him if I could share some with you. He made a distinction between high desire for sex and high need. He says he�s high desire, high enjoyment, and just about always ready (he�s discovered recently

that aging has caught up with him somewhat.) But he isn�t high need. I challenged him on that. I asked him about some of the things he had said and some things he had done, which I had interpreted as him feeling unloved, very unhappy, and his needs being unmet by his deficient wife. He told me I was misinterpreting and reading too much into those things.

He really wants and loves having sex with me and it makes him feel very good, but he said he doesn�t need me to have sex with him in order for him to feel loved by me. Sex is dessert, not the entr�e. He pointed out that just as I have been able to change my desire for sex largely by changing my own thoughts about him, he thinks the need for sex to feel loved can also be controlled by our frontal lobes. He pointed out that a need for sex to feel loved is a very difficult position to put oneself in given that it involves someone else�s body. He said he wouldn�t want to be in that position even though he loves making love with me!

As he was pointing this all out to me, I felt an even greater sense of relief than I have over the last few weeks. Having sex with him became even more appealing. I fell more in love with him. The difference is in feeling like a person wants to make love to you because he loves you rather a person wants to make love with you because he needs it to feel loved by you.

There might be several benefits to you if you look at what role sex plays for you in your feelings of being loved. First, if you are a high need, not just high desire, person, you might actually be freeing yourself if you work on making sex a little less important to your sense of closeness, love, and intimacy. I don�t mean just resigning yourself to the possibility of never having the sex you need, but actually really changing your thoughts. Second, your wife might sense this change and the pressure she may be feeling will be lifted. Taking the pressure off can possibly have the effect of making sex more likely.

Here's a nonsexual example of something I've changed about what I thought I needed from my h. I have an area of interest that is a part of my core being. My husband doesn't share that interest. I used to think that for him to truly understand and love me and really connect with me, he needed to be a part of that part of me. Because he wasn't, I told myself that we weren't really close the way I needed to be close. I don't think that anymore. As a result of changing my thinking on that issue, I can now see the love my h has always had for me and feel as close to him as I could possibily want.

The beauty of working on how you think about sex is that it is within your control. You aren�t dependent on another person changing.

My very best wishes to you, MPT

MPT, I don't think I am like your H. Wish I was. I must be high need. Maybe I'm screwed up but no sex = no love to me. Sex would probably not be an issue or focal point if I was getting it frequently. Its like when you are starving all you can think about is getting some food. When you can get food often enough you don't focus on it anymore.

Sooner, hearing that you can relate to my thoughts helps me big time. For so long my W has been telling me I'm a freak for being obsessed about sex that I was starting to believe it. When I gave her chapter 1 of SSM I said, "See! I'm not crazy afterall!"

Sounds like you should be much softer in your approach than I have been. I was half out the door due to her EA so I held nothing back.

Quoting FredD:
Sex would probably not be an issue or focal point if I was getting it frequently. Its like when you are starving all you can think about is getting some food. When you can get food often enough you don't focus on it anymore.

The same thought occurred to me too, that he could see sex this way because he hasn't been sex-starved recently. But when we actually got down to the specifics of his behavior during our starvation period, I have to admit that he was right about me misreading him and blowing things out of proportion. (I'm working on not doing that so much.)

I only had a limited number of examples of his behavior that might indicate he was seriously distressed about the lack of sex. Even those examples were pretty pathetic, based mostly on ambiguous non-verbal behavior. Boy, did I feel foolish when I looked at all my evidence of how much he needed sex to feel loved!

The fact is he has had a much clearer picture than I have had of the strength of our marriage and our relationship throughout this whole thing. I'm just glad I've finally gotten out from underneath the thumb of my "needs," and can begin to really enjoy my best friend and lover again.

I think having both spouses first understand and second communicate their needs effectively is a major milestone. You must be on the right track! My W is starting to understand my needs but hasn't really told me what she needs different from me. She must need something or she wouldn't have had the EA with OM. What is really disturbing is the EA started about the time I was feeling the best about our R that I ever had. I stopped working late all the time and was probably more attentive to her than ever before.

Off to see the MC with my W. Then taking the kids to my sister's so we can have dinner out and a movie.

Quote:

My W is starting to understand my needs but hasn't really told me what she needs different from me. She must need something or she wouldn't have had the EA with OM. What is really disturbing is the EA started about the time I was feeling the best about our R that I ever had.

oh fred you are so not alone!!!

my h cannot express to me what his needs are though does know they are different from mine...h had an ea just when I was starting to "accept" our r for what it was..

long story...just wanted to let you know your not alone..and oh ya...things can change.

LL

Quote:

. What is really disturbing is the EA started about the time I was feeling the best about our R that I ever had.

That should have been your first clue!Guess you haven't read DR: WAW Syndrome! Exact same sit for me, W has filed D papers, wants out, no chance of R! What does OG give her :"all the right words" "Doesn't treat me like a piece of meat" Maybe he can't get a har***! She'll be sorry! HA HA

T

Quote:

The last thing I want is to have an affair

Duh, W already beat you to the punch!! W quit having sex with me because she didn't want to cheat on OG!

You are in for a rough ride pal! Hang On! read DR, and have 50,000 tons of patience. I didn't, and I'll be single soon!

T

MPT and Fred,

I think you're both right. I would actually consider myself high desire as opposed to high need. Even when I've gone a long time without making love to my wife, in the back of my mind I still KNOW that she loves me. But at those times I FEEL that she doesn't love me - if that makes any sense. What you've both basically said is that when sex isn't happening with a reasonable frequency it's the only thing you think about - it basically becomes a need. I agree with MPT's husband that sex is dessert, not the entr�e. But when you've gone so long without dessert, you begin to lose your appetite for the entr�e as well. Fred summed it up well when he said "Its like when you are starving all you can think about is getting some food. When you can get food often enough you don't focus on it anymore." I think that's completely true. All this food talk is making me hungry.

Thank you both for you comments and MPT please thank your husband for getting involved as well. It's nice to feel like my "support group" is growing.

Sooner

I honestly think you're wrong Tony that my wife had or is having an affair. Believe me, that thought has crossed my mind but quite honestly I know my wife and I know that she's better than that. Besides, I don't think you can say that when a woman loses her desire for sex (with her husband) that she must be having an affair. Maybe the low desire wives on this post can provide some insight.

Sooner, I honestly thought I was wrong too! I thought I knew my wife too after 30 years together! She's 53, but it happened, the exact same way yours is happening. Now she is dumping me for the OG!

T

(oh, lordy, am I procrastinating!

)

You're absolutely right, sooner. You cannot make the assumption a woman is having an affair just because she loses her desire. In fact I used to test myself and try to fantasize about other men to see if I could generate some sense of desire. Zippo. Nada.

Now on the subject of needs getting met. I'm actually suggesting eliminating the concept of "getting needs met" as a central core to making a relationship work. I'm suggesting focusing on your enjoyment of the other person. My h and I have had discussions about getting needs met throughout our marriage. Looking back on them, it was mostly me talking about my needs. They seem rather monotonous and similar now after our more recent conversations about our relationship. Our recent conversations have focused more on enjoying each other and talking about ideas, thoughts, plans. We do things for each other now not to just fulfill a need the other person has, but because we just love doing it for the other.

This time around, I really have a much stronger sense of real, significant change in our relationship compared to my feelings after the previous, old, boring conversations about needs (my needs.) Now that my eyes are really open to seeing my h again, I'm learning so much from him. (And that's really sexy!) He says he doesn't see me as a "fulfiller of his needs." He sees me as his partner in life. I'm working as hard as I can to be more like him in this way.

He just came home and read what I was writing. He says he just loves me and not to stress over it too much.

MPT

My sitch is pretty much the same as Jen381's. I realized I missed the intimate relationship we had. Not having sex for so long kind of developed into a habit for me. A habit that needed to be broken especially since my H moved out and this being part of the problem. I wanted to save our marriage. My H, like you are fearing, I'm sure was driven to ow by my behavior. I don't know exactly how far their relationship went but if they had not had sex yet it was pretty darn close. We talked one night and I stated very, very strongly (which is a 180 for me) that I wanted her out of the picture and that she was a bigger problem then just sex. He had been sharing all his thoughts and feelings with her instead of me for a long time. I was feeling very shut out. To which he responded with an "I have to think about it". Much to my surprise, she was gone the very next day!

I knew I had to act fast. I did a 180 and invited him to go away for the weekend. I acted "as if" I were the sexist woman alive. I brought lingerie, books, candles, you get the picture. This is something I (or either one of us) have never done before in 13 years of marriage. It turned out that he brought a few of these things too. I felt a little uncomfortable at first because it had been such a long time. I could have very easily dodged sex, which I thought about because I was so uneasy. I forced myself to get the ball rolling. After a while, I really was in the mood and it was pretty good. We even talked about sex (which we had never done either) by reading some of the books out loud. This was also uncomfortable for me because I wasn't used to it. But I just bit the bullet and talked and you know what? Both doing it and talking about it got easier and easier. Now I have to make sure that I can keep it up (no pun intended) and don't fall back into the no sex habit. My H is moving back in this weekend and we will keep working on the r.

The moral of my story is that maybe your wife has fallen into this same habit which is very hard to break. With out my crisis I'm not sure if I would have done it either. What my H could have done if I had not taken charge was to not put any pressure on me to have sex-that only drove me further away. Be more romantic without the expectation of sex. What does it for me is when he does things for me that are totally unexpected and thoughtful-being very sweet. Heck, taking out the trash without being asked can be a turn on. You sound very thoughtful, just put some of this into action without expectations and maybe she will come around.

A change of scenery is great, and I agree, being somewhat direct about what you want is good too-ask her if she is in the mood instead of touching since that is uncomfortable for her. If she says no, be patient and maybe suggest that just cuddling would be ok with you tonight because you want to be close to her. And most of all keep letting her know how much you love her.

I hope any of this is useful to you. Maybe knowing that your lack of sex is not necessarily her lack of desire for you but a lack of practice might help.

Quote:

Quote: "My W has thought that once or twice a month was plenty.

Sooner,

Life just deals some dumb hands, I was a low desire spouse and twice a month was fine, she wanted every day.

And NO I won't give you her number. Maybe I will.

Poe

Poe, Poe, Poe, I never knew that about you, maybe I owe you an apology for calling you a pervert! maybe not! HELL, GIVE ME HER #

T nyP

Tony

Guts mess up in military, some days good, some days bad. So it affected love life. And no you can't have either number. I haven't totally givnen up like you. HA HA!!!

Poe

leelee,

I think you're correct that my wife has fallen into the habit of not having sex and that it's a very hard cycle to break. The fact that you were uncomfortable with both having and talking about sex sounds a lot like her. Even when she was comfortable having sex she was never comfortable talking about it. She's never been open to telling me what feels good, what turns her on, etc. which is frustrating because even if I find something that seems to work once, the next time it will be completely different. She acts like talking about it takes away the romance and that I should just know what she wants at any given time. Unfortunately I don't, and I especially don't now that we've gone so long with so little sex. I feel like we don't know each other physically anymore. And by the same token, since she's uncomfortable talking about sex I never tell her what I like because I'm afraid that I'll hurt her feelings or make her feel like she's doing something wrong. Guess I've gotten off on another subject, but as long as I'm on it I'm wondering if the sex-starved marriage has had the following effect on anyone else.

Even though it hasn't deterred my desire one bit, I have a lot of anxiety about sex that I didn't used to have. This anxiety seems to manifest itself in "less than spectacular" perfomance. On the rare occasions that my wife and I have had sex over the past few years, I'm always worried that if she doesn't have an orgasm she'll have even more of a reason not to desire sex. Instead of just being able to enjoy making love to her like I used to, this is all I can think about - and as you might guess I often don't last quite as long as she would like. Of course it doesn't help that my wife is no longer interested in foreplay - it's like she just wants to get it over with so that she can go several more weeks or months before having to do it again. Certainly doesn't do much for the male ego. I honestly think this is strictly a psychological problem that would quickly go away if sex became relatively frequent. It was never a problem in previous relationships anyway. Nonetheless it bothers me a lot and I don't know how to fix it.

Back to your post - it scares me a little that you said without the crisis of your husband leaving you for another woman, you're not sure if you'd have done anything about the lack of intimacy in your relationship. I don't want to have to leave my wife or have an affair before she'll take this problem seriously. But unfortunately that often seems to be the only thing that works. Is there anything your husband could have done or said, besides moving out and finding someone else, that would have convinced you to work on your intimacy problems? If I could get the magic answer to that question I think I'd have this problem licked!

Thanks for your response and please keep me in mind if you think of anything that might help.

Sooner

Sooner, I don't know what it takes to get the low desire spouse to wake up. I don't want to confirm your fears, but for me I am certain nothing would have changed if I hadn't been ready to walk out the door. I had spent the last 8 years afraid of divorce. My wife had threatened it numerous times over the years and played that trump card to get her way on the big arguments. When I decided 2 months ago that I was no longer afraid of the "big D" (after all I survived it once before) it was very liberating to me. I really didn't want a divorce since that wouldn't be a good thing for the kids, but if that's what it was going to come to then so be it. The way it seems to me, the fact that I could walk away gave me the strength to make our R much better than it had ever been. Kind of the "negotiate from a position of strength instead of weakness" philosophy. I'm not claiming success yet but it seems to be working so far.

As for the performance issue, I think that's another thing the low desire W doesn't understand. When its been so long, and you are thinking to yourself "I can't believe this is finally happening!" its pretty difficult to have any staying power.

Sooner,

Hi there, I've been thinking about your situation a lot. I have so much empathy for you and your W. I have a few things I want to share with you. Please take it with a grain of salt.

When I read through your posts you sound almost obsessed with finding a way to change your W. If you have the same intense words, thoughts, emotions, vibes when around your W as you do here, I am pretty sure it may be pushing her further away. Desperation for another person to change is not attractive.

I am guessing that your W knows that she is not all you hoped for sexually. When we LD's know we are living up to our loved ones sexual expectations it is a painful place to be in. It is easy to become defensive and shut off. Also to feel like we are not good enough.

Knowing that we are not fullfilling our spouses needs and doing something about it are 2 completly different things. Although I knew what my H wanted I was still not able to give it to him. It was not on purpose, or because I didn't love him, or for some vendictive motive. I just couldn't. My heart and body would not allow me too. I don't know why. But I can tell you I felt horrible. And I carried a great burden on my shoulds of guilt, fear, anxiety. I wanted to be all I could for him but I just couldn't. Maybe your W feels the same.

You see, there is nothing, absolutly nothing that my H could have done to change me. I am changing now because I decided to change for myself. I wanted more passion. But the key is: I decided.

I hope this doesn't sound harsh but there may be nothing you can do to change her. You may driving yourself and W crazy looking for answers when there are none.

One thing I have decided to do is give my husband what "he" needs to feel loved. And to quit worring about my own needs so much. I have decided to love and accept him just the way he is. I have decided to quit trying to change him and start to change myself. I am asking myself and him what he needs to feel loved. And working my hardest to give it to him.

Maybe your W will never change. Can you love her for who she is? Can you accept her "as is". Have you asked her directly what you can do to love her the way "she" needs to be loved?

I'm not saying ignore your own needs. This weekend I made a very clear list for my H. In detail of my "emotional needs". Maybe he didn't know. Just like I didn't understand his. But I have decided to communicate as crystal clear as I possibly can what I need from him. I have also decided that if I don't get a thing from him I am still going to give him what he needs. I have decided that is my job, to make him feel loved, accepted, and cherished, however he needs me to.

Do you think you W feels 100% accepted, loved, cherished just the way she is? Do you think that you do truly love and accept her just the way she is? Have you made your needs crystal clear for her?

We can't change the way other people behave or think. We can only change our own behaviors and thoughts. Happiness doesn't come when others do what we want. It comes when we give of ourselves and expect nothing back.

Hope this is not too abrasive. These are just things that I have recently discovered for myself and thought I would share.

Sincerely,
Jen

Jen,

Thank you for your comments. They weren't too abrasive - in fact I think they make a lot of sense. I don't have much time to respond right now, but I'll try to say more later.

I can certainly love my wife for who she is and I can accept her "as is". That's what I've done to this point and I know that I'll always love her no matter what happens. However, I'll be miserable. I've been trying to meet her needs as she's described them to me, and I plan to continue doing so. It hurts however that she doesn't care enough about me to do the same. I don't want to go through life feeling the way that I've felt for the past 5 years - is that selfish? I'll say more later.

Fred, thank you for your comments also. I appreciate the support and will try to say more later.

Sooner

Accept W the way she is, even if she doesn't love me? Yes, I know she loves me because she tells me and stuff but I don't feel like she loves me. The brain can only override the heart for so long. And, talk is cheap.

fred and sooner...

don't take my saying this as a woman who doesn't understand your plight...cause I sure do!!! I am the woman in a ssm...I am the one who want it...I am the one who gives h what he wants...is nice and waits patiently only to not get what I want..

I just want to know...in addition to ssm have you read the five love languages??? if your wives are not accepting the ssm book it may be because it's focus is on sex...the 5ll's book goes into more detail about how different people show and receive love differently it is not about sex but physical touch is one of the 5ll's it may be useful for you to read that book...understand it and then ask your w's to read it too.

LL

Beware of "I'm the good guy. She's the bad guy" thinking. It will do nothing good for you or your relationship. And it probably isn't true. In every marriage there are actually two marriages...his marriage and her marriage. You might be quite surprised if you could see your marriage through your spouse's eyes. You might even wonder who it is she is married to! Please don't go down this path.

Earlier you mentioned that you get hostility when you bring the subject up. In other posts you have mentioned that you get defensive when she brings up stuff about you. You two have something in common. What would make you less defensive when she brings up stuff about you? Now do the same for her.

Is it possible she feels you're expecting sexual payment for your goodwill? Remember, it may not be how you think, but it may be how she interprets things. If so, that is a huge turnoff. Ledger books in marriages are generally not a good thing. But if they exist I'd put money on a lack of a match between his ledger book and her ledger book. And just think of the argument as they try to convince each other as to which is the right one!

As for misery, I do hope that the two of you can work something out, but the question you ultimately have to ask yourself is just how much are you willing to let the sex issue mess up your marriage and your life? You may think the only ball in the game is buried in concrete on her side of the court, but there is actually more than one ball in play.

Best wishes as always, MPT

Fred, Jen, lostlove, and MPT,

Thank you all for your comments - they've been very enlightening. Lostlove, I haven't read The Five Love Languages although I've read a summary that someone posted on this website. I may read the entire book sometime, but right now I feel like reading more books about relationships is nothing more than an exercise in futility.

In the five weeks or so since I first posted on here I've learned so much, I've changed my thinking relative to several issues, and I honestly believe that I've made changes in myself for the better. Not to say that I don't have more improving left to do. But right now I'm feeling more lonely, more hopeless, and more miserable than I've ever felt. I'm starting to understand that there's nothing I can do to convince my wife to address the intimacy issues in our relationship. I had hoped that by truly understanding how much I'm hurting she would want to make everything better. But that isn't the case - she still seems to think that I should just "get over it". I feel like I'm completely alone.

It scares me that low-desire spouses often decide to address intimacy problems only when faced with a crisis, specifically when their spouse leaves or has an affair. But I have no desire to do either of those things, and as a result I'm scared to death of being lonely and miserable for the rest of my life. I'm already to the point where I have trouble concentrating on my work, or anything else for that matter. I get teary-eyed just driving down the road. I have trouble putting on a "happy face" when I'm playing with my girls, and I worry about how that might affect them.

I don't know what to do. I've honestly enjoyed doing more things for my wife to make her life easier - and I now accept those things as being my responsibility. But I'm almost afraid to do anything for her because, as MPT said, she may think I'm "expecting sexual payment for my goodwill". There seems to be a negative side to anything I could possibly do. I wish I could just give up, but doing so won't stop the hurt. I don't know if it's possible to just give up.

I appreciate everyone's support, but I realize that you can't continue coming up with solutions to my problems. Eventually there are no more solutions. Nonetheless I'll continue reading these posts, trying to sort things out in my own mind, and praying for a miracle.

Sooner

sooner I do understand how you feel...believe me I do..
I understand your frustrations..I understand your sadness the emptiness..the helplessness etc...

perhaps you could get the book for your wife...it may help her to better understand the "issue". Not suggesting michelle hasn't done a great job with ssm...but ssm keeps it's focus on sex and that may seem like pressure to a low drive spouse..especially one who doesn't have a problem with it. the five love languages is more about how people feel loved and may help w to better understand herself and you in those areas.

LL

Don't give up, but try to have patience. Maybe you don't need a "crisis" but just a moment of opportunity.

LL,

I'm pretty sure that my wife would not agree to read The Five Love Languages. I don�t believe that she refuses to read The Sex-Starved Marriage because it focuses on sex, but rather because she's completely opposed to putting that level of effort into making our relationship better. Such an effort on her part might indicate that she feels partially responsible for our problems. Besides, what good would it do for her to understand what I need to feel loved when she doesn't seem to care if I feel loved or not. She seems to be perfectly content as long as I fulfill all of her needs, pretend to be happy, and keep my mouth shut about my own needs.

I realize that our problems are just as much my fault as hers (as I'm demonstrating in this post), but I've been working hard to try and better understand her needs and to become the husband that she wants me to be. And yes, I screw up � but at least I�m giving it my best effort. I�d give anything to be in her shoes. At least then I�d know that my spouse is in love with me, finds me attractive and sexy, and wants to be close to me. I have to live every day feeling that my wife finds me repulsive and that she�d be happier if I wasn�t even around. I�m not trying to trivialize the pain and confusion that low-desire spouses feel, but at least they seem to control their own destiny. If a low desire spouse is lucky enough to have someone that will remain faithful and love them unconditionally, they only need to decide that it�s time to make things better and they immediately get all the support they need. At least that�s how it seems when reading the posts on this message board.

I�m hurting and frustrated and I apologize that I�m letting my frustration show. Maybe it helps to see the jerk side of me that comes out when my wife and I get into an argument. That�s what I need to change most about myself. If nothing else maybe you low-desire spouses will set me straight and change my thinking on this issue.

Sooner

since I am not a low desire spouse I can offer very little to change your attitude but I can tell you something...

Quote:

I�d give anything to be in her shoes. At least then I�d know that my spouse is in love with me, finds me attractive and sexy, and wants to be close to me. I have to live every day feeling that my wife finds me repulsive and that she�d be happier if I wasn�t even around.

that is exactly how I used to think..funny thing is what was comming across to h is..I don't like you...youre not good enough...I hate you...etc....

perhaps you could just get the book...read it...have a better understanding of such things...you may even discover your other love languages and learn to focus on when those are being met...no it wont deplete the fact that you still want "sex" but it may help to ease the "suffering" it may help you to feel loved when you know what language the other is speaking.

read it for yourself..and leave it for w...if she chooses to read it fine if not fine..

LL

Good point LL. That's exactly what my wife seems to hear, and I although I never mean to communicate to her that I don't like her, she's not good enough, etc., I can understand why she gets that feeling. It's ironic how you can love someone so much and want to be close to them so badly that you make them think the exact opposite with your tone of voice. I need to learn how to stop communicating those things and start communicating how I really feel - whether verbal or nonverbal. Thanks LL.

I think you have gotten excellent advice here. Don't worry about letting your frustration show here. That's what this is here for and believe me, all of the people that post here offer their unconditional support and kindness and it helps alot.
Back to your problem. I think you are doing some great things in your r and do need to be patient and hang in there. Don't give up! How exactly do you know that your w truly understands how much you are hurting? It sounds like she is uncomfortable communicating with you by talking. Do you think that a letter from you might help? I think that some of the things that you have said in your posts are beautiful and show how much you love her. She just may want to see all that and have some time to digest it. You have clearly shown here that to you, sex is not all about getting your needs met but a way to show her how much you love and care about her. You might end your letter with asking her to write back to you. She may just be embarassed and uneasy about saying what she feels to you and by her writing it down she can take her time to write what she feels and won't be as uncomfortable about it. I know this worked for me. It really broke the ice in our communication gap.
As for my h having to leave and have an affair before I opened my eyes, maybe I would have acted sooner if I truly thought that this might happen if I did not change my behavior but there is no way of knowing. I don't know whether or not you want to tell (or write) her that this has crossed your mind or not. Certainly DO NOT THREATEN. Maybe if she knows that this is a true consideration (as a last resort of yours due to your desperation and frustration) she may get the wake up call she needs. Anybody else have any thoughts on this route to take?
Keep hanging in there.

Quote:

I don't know whether or not you want to tell (or write) her that this has crossed your mind or not. Certainly DO NOT THREATEN. Maybe if she knows that this is a true consideration (as a last resort of yours due to your desperation and frustration) she may get the wake up call she needs. Anybody else have any thoughts on this route to take?

the only hole in doing so (and trust me I have taken that route..not as a threat but as a statement of possiblity) is that it may communicate what we don't intend...it may be interperted as a need for sex vs. a need to show love and affection.

does that make sense???

LL

leelee,

I agree that I've gotten excellent advice here and I appreciate your comments and suggestions. I was surpised to get such nice comments from you, being a low-desire spouse, because I felt like I probably came across as a complete jerk. I'm glad however that you thought some of the things in my posts showed how much I love my wife - it makes me feel good that I can at least communicate that to someone. Now if I could only communicate it to her.

You asked how I know that she truly understands how much I'm hurting. I still don't know that she does actually, but if you'll look at the first page of this thread you'll see that I did write my wife a letter about a week ago. After finishing the letter I forgot to put away several pages of posts that I'd printed out to help me organize my thoughts - I left them sitting next to the computer. The next morning she read not only my letter but some of the posts as well. I don't know how many she read, but I'd think that in reading some of the things I've written that she probably has a much better idea of how badly I'm hurting. However, she may still not understand - I just don't know. My wife initially didn't seem overly upset that I'd been posting on a message board, but I've since gotten the impression that she is somewhat upset. She told me last night that she doesn't know anymore what's coming from me and what's coming from other people (on this post). While I admit taking advice from a lot of people on here, I've always stated (or written) only my own true feelings - never anyone else's.

I'd love it if my wife would write a letter back to me expressing her feelings and her views on how we can make things better. But I'd be really surpised if she would do that. I do know however that it would work a lot better than trying to communicate verbally. I hope that someday we'll be able to share our needs, hopes, dreams, etc. with each other verbally, but right now we're stuck in a communication rut and can't seem to dig out of it.

I'd never threaten my wife with having an affair, but I have let her know on a couple of occasions that I'm scared of feeling so undesirable that I could eventually give in to a strong enough temptation. I'm very much against having an affair, primarily due to the fact that my father had an affair and I've seen the consequences. And if I ever need any more motivation I just think of how it would affect me if my wife were to have an affair. I may be hurting badly now, but I can't even imagine how much worse it would hurt if she were to cheat on me. I have great admiration for the people on this message board who are trying to put their marriages back together after their spouse had an affair. I honestly don't think I could ever get over it.

Nonetheless, when I'm getting no affection from my wife I find myself nearly drooling over every somewhat attractive woman that I see. When things were good between us sexually, I can honestly say that I was nothing like this. It scares me! Fortunately I haven't been presented with a temptation that was too great to resist. I've certainly been tempted, but I've always been able to basically turn and run. I'm very thankful for that - I doubt my marriage would stand a chance if I'd ever given in.

I just previewed this post and realized how long it is. Sorry about that.

Sooner

Sooner,
I wish my h had thought like you do before his affair. You come across as sweet, not a jerk.

Maybe the fact that you did not intend for w to see the letter and she had to stumble across it hurt. Since it was not actually addressed to her maybe it was not as tender as it should have been. Maybe another crack at it would work.

I, on the other hand, have made a complete turn around. I was not able to do this with a year of therapy and medication but I did learn alot in this process. Then I found Michele's book and a similar one called "How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together" by Susan Page. With the help of these books I was finally able to take action and change myself (note the word "myself", you are the only one that you can change). My h totally responded to my behavior change. It was exactly like it was described in the books. I was astounded! I didn't actually think it would work. It definitly was the 180's that I did. I would force myself to act the opposite of what I would normally do. It didn't even take anything big (except the sex-that was big but I forced myself there too). It was a lot of little changes.

My h has moved back in and dropped the ow (after 3 years). We are having sex regularly and both enjoying it. I feel more sincere love than ever. This has surprised me because I used to think just like you, that I would never get over an affair. The road to hell and back during the past year has really toughened me up. It has matured me and taught me how to forgive and realize that everybody is human and makes mistakes. I can't say that finally having a happy marriage was worth it, but without all of this happening we would not be feeling as great as we are. I guess this proves that EVERY situation has a silver lining.

I hope my story has inspired you to keep up what you are doing and be patient.

You seem to be back to 1. She doesn't understand or 2. She doesn't care. I return to that place often.

It seems to me that my W (possible the same as yours) doesn't believe in trying. Things are supposed to be good without trying. So reading anything is out. Talking about things in any depth is out. Pretty much anything other than natural telepathy and mind reading is "forced" and therefore bad. I'm surprised she's even seeing a MC with me.

Quote:

Things are supposed to be good without trying. So reading anything is out. Talking about things in any depth is out. Pretty much anything other than natural telepathy and mind reading is "forced" and therefore bad. I'm surprised she's even seeing a MC with me.

fred is it possible that your w is trying she just isn't trying YOUR way so your just not seeing it?? I suggested the five love languages..it may help you to see w trying in her own way. I know the concept of differing love languages has helped me to see that h is trying...even if it isn't my way he is trying...the more I appreciate his way..the more he is likely to start showing me in my way "physical touch".

LL

LL, you are right. I know she actually is trying, just not in ways that make any sense to me. I'll add the Love Languages book to my list. For the time being however, I don't feel like reading anything related to our R since that contributes to my impatience and overwhelming desire to "fix" the R ASAP. I litterally have a stack of about 10 books by my bed lined up for reading. 1/2 are fiction and 1/2 are non ficition. I'm trying to stick to fiction for a while.

leelee,

Your story does inspire me and I'm very happy that you and your husband are doing so well. I'm curious - would reading "How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together" be as beneficial if read by a high-desire spouse? If so, I'll add it to my list of books to read. Based on lostlove's comments I've added "The Five Love Languages" to my list as well, although like Fred I plan to hold off on the book reading for a while. Just as he stated, reading relationship books, especially good ones, fills me with a sense of hope that leads to an obsession with fixing everything right away. This obsession seems to actually makes things worse.

Fred, my wife is definitely on board with the natural telepathy and mind reading approach to solving problems in our relationship. I understand exactly where you're coming from on that one.

I've noticed that since my post yesterday MPT and jen381 have been conspicuously silent. I'm thinking that I either came across as such a jerk that they've decided not to waste their advice on me, or else they've both run off with their husbands for a romantic long weekend.

Sooner

Quoting sooner1992:

I've noticed that since my post yesterday MPT and jen381 have been conspicuously silent....or else they've both run off with their husbands for a romantic long weekend.

Sooner

I wish. Spring break. Kids home. Still have major work project to accomplish by Monday. Still procrastinating occasionally by reading posts, as you can see.

Have thoughts. No time. (Developed bizarre writing style to cope.)

MPT

Hi Sooner: I've been following your posts but I don't think I ever saw any mention of counseling -- have you tried that? If only for yourself? If only with a DB Coach? Having experienced only a modicum of what you seem to be living with, I sympathize so much. From your descriptions, it sounds nearly hopeless, yet I'm loath ever to give up hope and you seem to be the same way. If I can think of ANYTHING that might help, I will be sure to pass it along (FWIW).

Jeffo,

I've never tried counseling, either with my wife or alone. This message board is about as close as I've gotten. I really doubt that my wife would see a counselor with me as I've mentioned it before and she's been less than enthused. I have considered seeing one by myself but I honestly can't get too excited about it either - mainly because I doubt that it will help very much. Nonetheless I haven't ruled it out. I'm sure you've stated in your posts but I've forgotten - have you seen a counselor? If so, did it help any?

Over the "long term" I really don't think my situation is hopeless - although my wife and I certainly have a lot of obstacles to overcome. I honestly believe that as our girls get older and more independent, my wife will begin to have a need for me again - not just sexually but also as her best friend and companion. She's quite overwhelmed right now between dealing with the girls, her job, and everything else going on in our lives. This leaves her little time to think about me, much less to desire making love to me.

However, my outlook for the short term is more dismal. I feel like we're wasting the time that we have together and as a result I want things to be better now. I feel lucky to have a beautiful, sexy wife and it kills me to get a glimpse of her gorgeous body as she changes clothes or to lie inches away from her in bed without being able to act on my desires. It's like having a Ferrari in the garage and not being able to drive it, or for that matter even to open the door and sit in it. It's killing me!

I appreciate your support - please do pass along anything you think of that might help.

Sooner

Hi Sooner,

Yes, I went away for a long weekend with H. Not ignoring you.

I have been thinking more about your situation.

As the LD spouse I am very conscience of when my H wants to have sex. The normal approach is late at night, he'll snuggle up to me. Typically he comes to bed later than me and I am already sleeping. So this is not the best timing for me.

As I thought about this I realized that it doesn't really work for me and asked myself what would work better.

When H wants to have sex I would like it if he would let me know a couple hours earlier so I can get my mindset in that direction. Also sleep is very important to me, so I would also like it if we could start earlier so I can be asleep by 10. I would also like to know if he just wants to snuggle, kiss or if he wants sex.

I guess what I am trying to say is that verbal clarity for me is important. A lot of times I have no idea what H really wants. I used to assume it was always sex. So I would turn off all intimacy. I am learning that sometimes he just wants to snuggle or just wants a kiss. I have asked him to let me know verbally what he wants.

Maybe it would help your W if you said something like "Tonight I would love to snuggle with you, I don't want to have sex, can we just snuggle?" Let her know earlier in the day. Ask permission. This way she is in control and maybe won't feel anxious about what you want when you come to bed.

You could also try asking earlier in the day about sex. "I would love to make love with you tonight, can we have sex tonight?" This way the pressure is off of her in the moment. She can say yes or no. If she says yes. Ask her what she needs. Kids to bed early? Dishes done? romantic dinner first.

If she says no maybe you could ask her when a good time would be. If she doesn't know ask her if you could plan a night away and plan to have sex then. Don't give up.

For a LD person who is not applying the SSM techniques, going to bed with HD spouse can be down right scary. It's a fear of the unknown. "What do they want from me tonight?" is the underlieing question.

As an experiment maybe you could try being clear everyday and every night for a month. Also let her know when you don't want to have sex. "Tonight I just want to go to sleep". She may be surprised.

In the past my H would approach me at bedtime. And I am finding that this is the worst time for me. I am tired and worried that if I stay up late my next day will be dragging. I am finding that I like mornings after coffee, expecially Sundays, after I sleep in have coffee and shower. At that time I feel great, rested and have more to give.

I also think that going to bed with each other every night is important. Although the pressure is off of both of you with different bedtimes, I think it is just an avoidance. I feel abandonded when H stays up later than me.

I think silence is a marriage killer. Try to be clear about what you want and ask for it.

Have you tried this before?

I told you before that there was nothing that H could have done. But I think I was wrong. I think there were and are things that H can do to make sex a better experience for me. And this is one thing that I figured out.

I will let you know if I figure out more stuff.

Also I found a website called marriagebuilders.com. There are some great articles you may be interested in.

Good luck, whatever you do don't give up.

Sincerley,
Jen

Hello again: I have tried one session with a therapist and found that it was surprising in its effectiveness. It really got me thinking more about things from other perspectives (besides my own). And I found that I was able to be more emphathetic with my W. I would like to go back but $ is an issue there. I just thought that maybe even one call to one of the DB coaches could help clarify things or give you a ray of hope. You never know.

Your analogies are great -- I know how you feel about the Ferrari. I have felt that way many, many times. It's a wonder to me how men and women can truly be so different sometimes.

Quote:

It's a wonder to me how men and women can truly be so different sometimes.

it's not a man woman thing...it's an individual thing...I've got a man!! wathcing him cut down trees in the yard...watching him work...(offering to help) but for whatever reason I can't always have him. an occasional test drive just to keep me interested but I don't have free access to this fine ferrari I've got!!

LL

jen,

I appreciate all the thought (and typing) that you've put into my situation. Like your husband, I usually go to bed quite a bit later than my wife, try to snuggle up to her, wake her up, and basically make her mad in the process. She's a morning person while I'm a night person. Unfortunately we're seldom able to go to bed together because one of us has to read stories to the girls and get them sleep. If she goes upstairs with them, she usually falls asleep before they do and doesn't come back downstairs until the middle of the night. If I take the girls to bed I'm usually back downstairs by 10 p.m., but my wife is sound asleep. At that point I usually stay up for a while because I�m afraid that if I get in bed I�ll lie there awake until I end up pestering her. I'd love to be able to go to bed with her and I'm hoping this will become easier as the girls become more independent. Of course I've got no problem with morning sex either if that works better for her, but there aren't many mornings when at least one of the girls hasn't come downstairs and gotten into bed with us. Also, morning sex doesn't lend itself to a lot of kissing thanks to morning breath.

I've never really let my wife know ahead of time that I'd like to have sex with her later that night. I'd love to be able to do this, especially if it would make things easier on her, but I honestly don't know if it would do any good. I'm afraid that it would be awkward for her and that just asking would lead to the sex argument. Do you think that's a valid concern? I suppose I could try it and see how she reacts. Also, I'm a little afraid that I'd end up asking her every night. Maybe when the frequency gets back to normal sex won't be the only thing on my mind, but right now I can't imagine there being a night when I don't want to make love to my wife. Maybe if I was really sick, but that's about it. Actually though, there are a lot of times that I would love to be able to cuddle with her and kiss her without it resulting in sex, and I especially miss sleeping naked with her and just feeling her body against mine. When we started going out, she nearly insisted that we sleep naked together - and it only took about one night before I became a big fan of that arrangement. Now she practically goes to bed fully clothed and I really miss the feeling of her bare skin against mine.

Mornings after coffee would be great for me, but between the kids and both of us working we don't get such opportunities very often. Actually never, unless we happen to be away in a hotel together. By the way, I'm going to San Diego for business next weekend and my wife is flying out to join me for a long weekend.

I�m in a pretty good mood as I write this because I made love to my wife this morning for the first time since I started posting to this message board. Now if I can just keep from screwing up (via the sex argument, etc.) maybe things will continue to improve.

Jeffo and lostlove � thanks for your responses as well. Glad to know that my Ferrari analogy hit home with someone else. Driving a Ferrari is so much more exciting than riding a unicycle!

Sooner

Have patience. Maybe, like you said, you'll get a little more time together when your kids get a little more independent. I've decided that my wife and I need to go out once every week without the kids. It is helping.

Sooner, I just found this site and went directly to your message. I'm shaking and freaking out after reading your story because it is almost as if I had written it. So many of the details are my experience as well. I totally feel for you and in some wrong oblique way it is comforting to know that there are others who are dealing with the frustrations that have been tearing me apart from the inside out. I'm almost in a panic to respond to everything that has been said in many of these messages. I want to cry but I can't, I can only feel utterly profound sadness eating away at my heart. There are people that have worse situations than me, including you, Sooner. My story has a few perplexing twists to it, which I'll try to express.

First, let me apologize ahead of time for my attitude, I�m just so frustrated.

Currently on average we have sex 1.23567 times per month and it's pretty decent about half the time, but then when you're starving anything seems wonderful. Still, for me it is overwhelming and it is affecting the rest of my life. I now deal with bouts of depression, self doubt, panic attacks, listlessness, fatigue, anxiety, inability to perform at work, sleeplessness, high blood pressure...the ugly list goes on. Some days I actually get chest pain and feel lightheaded and dizzy when I get the rejection or get caught in the downward spiral of contemplating the problem.

I'm a kind sensitive guy (gaining an ugly edge of cynicism and sarcasm) with average looks, weight and build in his mid 30's. My wife is a few years younger than me and the sexiest creature on the earth. I absolutely adore her. I still feel as passionately about her as I did almost 15 years ago when we married. She has a body that most women would die to have (and men, but in a different way!) She works out a few times a week and dresses very stylishly, but not overly done. She's funny, intelligent, well-educated, thoughtful and sweet. Frankly, I get aroused when she walks into the room or just hearing her voice on the phone. In her viewpoint this makes me a pervert and overly sexual person. Unfortunately, her sexual spark for me faded very quickly, probably due to getting pregnant with our son a week after getting married. We never got to be a couple before we were a family. I think this was the beginning of the trouble. Before we got married we had a wild sex life. We would make love for hours. It's hard to imagine the effort we would go to just to make love. Now it's an occasional fairly quick event, more of something she does just when her chemistry is working (once a month, basically) or to satisfy my begging. The in between is incredibly painful and makes the month drag. Sometimes 2-3 months will pass without any intimacy. I go insane!!

I totally understood the "Ferrari" analogy. Since we are talking about starvation on this site mine might appropriate: that you've been invited to live and banquet with the king so you sell all of your possessions and burn every bridge behind you. There's no going back. When you get to the castle the king doesn't give you any food for months or a scrap here and there but makes you sit at his table every night and watch the royalty gorging themselves on an incredible feast. If you complain he throws you in the dungeon for a few days to sober you up. When you're finally broken he lets you come back to the table and if you're really behaving well you can crawl under the table and eat whatever has fallen between the cracks. You're no longer allowed to leave the castle and no one is allowed to give you anything on the side. This cycle continues for a decade and a half.

So far it sounds pretty much like what a lot of others have talked about on this site. Here's the frustrating twist. My wife thinks I'm a great person and a dear friend. She can't imagine being with any other man and we tell each other that we love each other at least everyday. I'm hopelessly romantic and used to shower her with praises and compliments until she started getting more irritated at me for telling her how gorgeous she is and how much I desire her. We like a lot of the same things and laugh and joke quite a bit. We go out for lunch every week and a dinner and movie or a play most weekends. We�re both pretty busy with professional careers but isn�t everybody? I�m getting so tired of hearing that she�s had a stressful day so she�s not in the mood. Life is stressful and tiring, people still have a sex life! She rarely wants to kiss me and not passionately. It�s not that I don�t enjoy a peck on the cheek; it�s just that I need a lot more. She likes to hug, which is both delicious and excruciating at the same time since I�m dying for it to lead to more later on. She likes to have me caress her in a non-sexual way, which kills me (refer to the feast analogy!), she likes to spoon and practically sleeps half on top of me. How can a man have a woman that he�s extremely in love with and attracted to touching him and not get aroused? I�m going out of my mind! As soon as I initiate I get flat out rejection and then a nasty mood to tip toe around for a while. If I bring it up (gently and sensitively, of course) to discuss my sexual frustration she gets irritated and angry. She says I�ve just got to deal with it or find someone else. I don�t understand this. I know she really doesn�t want me to leave her and I definitely don�t want someone else, I just want her, I want to see that flame of desire return to her eyes. The key to a man�s heart is make him feel desired.

I�ve tried getting her to take aphrodisiacs, no way. She won�t consider therapy because from her perspective there�s nothing wrong. She believes that I am over sexual and need to masturbate (I actually have a difficult time being interested enough in just an orgasm to masturbate) or read poetry to deal with my frustration. In her viewpoint, the only problem is the fact that I am always after her. After a week or two of keeping my desire to myself. I can�t even look at her with horny eyes� or make any colorfully flirty comments. Long walks in the park do nothing but make me ache for her. It�s less painful not to be around her than it is to be exposed to her lovely

I believe that all these years of repressing my desires are causing emotional and even physical damage. Sometimes I go to sleep with my testicles in pain from having such an perpetual erection and no relief. I feel like I am wasting my youthful passion and exuberance. This problem in the bed is leaking over into all the areas of my life: I�m becoming tense, short-tempered with everyone, neurotic. In another decade I probably won�t enjoy sex that much either (although, I honestly can�t imagine what that must be like). It�s not sex that I�m after as much as deep intimacy (through sexual/sensual contact).

Basically, she�s not even interested in being interested. If I bring it up she gets negatively emotional and says that I�m only with her for the sex (What sex!?) and that if I�m not happy with her I should find someone else. I know that�s not really what she wants. It doesn�t matter if we go on vacation (even worse since my sexuality perks way up when we go on vacation) or I clean the house or take care of the kid (I take care of him more often) or having a romantic dinner ready for her or offer a massage or buy her a dress.

There is not one single connection I can make between anything I do and the rare event that she becomes interested in me. This leads to me to believe that the problem begins simply with an hormonal imbalance, a subject that I haven�t seen many people talking about on this web site so far. Whether the low-libido spouse is a man or woman I think they need to begin by having a thorough hormone test to see if anything is off. It is sad to think how many relationships have disintegrated or at least been aggravated due to a simple chemical that they have too much of or not enough of. I have a friend that is one of the kindest guys you could meet that lost his marriage to early menopause, a condition that few people know about but that I suspect is culprit in destroying many women�s libidos. As for the men with low libidos...I can not comprehend your experience. The only time my libido goes down is when I get my sexual approaches trampled on. Even if I�m sick I know one thing that would cheer me up!

Anyway, I�ve gone on and on about my problems. Sorry if I�ve bored y�all. What can I do? I think about all I can do is get therapy for myself to learn low libido spouse survival techniques. Any ideas out there? I am going crazy.

Sincerely,

AchingMan

AchingMan,

I certainly understand what you're going through - your situation does have a lot of similarities to mine. I obviously can't offer much advice, but I'll keep an eye on your posts and pass along anything I find that might help.

Fred, thanks for your encouragement as always.

Here's a quick update on my situation. After making love to my wife yesterday morning for the first time in roughly 3 months, I'm still hoping to build on that little bit of success. Last night my wife again fell asleep upstairs and didn't get back downstairs until the middle of the night. This morning I woke up at 5:20 and tried to cuddle up to her, and as usual I got the reaction "Sooner (she actually used my real name however) - just let me sleep a little longer!" So I rolled back over and left her alone. About 5 minutes later her alarm went off and she got up and started getting ready for work without ever acknowleging me. If she only realized how much it would mean to me if she'd cuddle up to me a little or give me a kiss before getting out of bed. Maybe she does and just doesn't care.

This evening on the way home from work I stopped and got her some flowers along with a card that just said "I love you". I wanted to let her know that I appreciated her making an effort. She doesn't have to work on Fridays so I was hoping she might be open to "another round" tonight - I want so badly to get over the anxiety that results from only having sex every few weeks at best. But at the moment she's asleep upstairs, so tonight is probably out of the question. Maybe tomorrow - who knows.

It really bothers me feeling like there's something wrong with me for wanting to make love to my wife. If she had any idea how badly or how often I want her, I'd probably be in trouble all the time. She acts like she'd prefer it if I didn't find her the least bit appealing. I can't understand that because the greatest desire that I have is to be adored by her - to know that no matter what happens I can come home to someone who's madly in love with me and feels lucky to have me. But around my wife, I no longer feel attractive, sexy, smart, funny, confident, or the least bit desirable. I married her because I wanted a soul mate, but it feels like she only married me because she wanted a roommate.

Enough self pity - I should probably go to bed.

Sooner

If nothing else, being here reading about other people in virtually the same situation as I am gives me the comfort to know there is nothing wrong with me. Like you Aching man, my W was trying to convince me that sex once a month was normal and I was some kind of pervert for wanting more. It was my problem and not hers. I can so relate to your story as well as Sooner's. 1-2 times a day would be like paradise. Lateley is been 1-2 times a week which is like being let out of prison or something. I'd love more but sure as heck won't complain after 8 years of once a month. It took me almost leaving (not over the sex issue but because she had an EA) to get the change. I hope that you guys don't have to do anything as drastic.

Hey Sooner et Als,

Let me say that when the opportunity arises I will nominate you for sainthood. I identify with your situation so much. Everytime you express your frustration with your lack of sex life you could sign my name to the message. While it is comforting to realize that others are going through this too, it makes me very angry. I�m sorry I should be patient and all that but I think it is such a shame that so many people are suffering for such a ridiculously wonderful aspect of being alive. I can�t help believe that for a lot of low libidoers it begins with an attitude adjustment. Whether you (low libs) think it is important or not the fact is well established that SEX (what a lovely word, no?) is healthy, important and necessary for a sane relationship.

Here�s some great facts I came across:

�WHY SEX IS GOOD FOR YOU�
By Laura Snyder

Better sleep. A sexier physique. Stronger
immunity. Sound like the effects of the latest
wonder drug? Nope, it's just the many physical
benefits of having a satisfying sexual
relationship.

And all this time you were just making love
because it was fun! If you're looking for more
reasons to get romantic, consider the following:

1.You're getting a good workout. Would
you rather run 75 miles or have sex
three times a week for one year? While
both burn the same number of calories
(about 7,500), one is decidedly more
pleasurable than the other. Regular sex - which burns
approximately 150 calories in a half-hour -- is regular exercise.
You'll have all the same benefits of spending that time in the gym,
including improved circulation, lower cholesterol and the release of
feel-good endorphins.

2.You won't get sick. According to research by Dr. Carl Charnetski,
professor of psychology at Wilkes University in Wilkes-Barre, Pa
and co-author of Feeling Good is Good For You, people who
reported one or two sexual episodes per week enjoyed higher
levels of Immunoglobin A, the antibody that helps fend of illness.

3.You'll feel happier. In addition to the obvious boost in
satisfaction, feeling secure in your relationship leads to a greater
sense of well-being. Women in particular may see even more
benefits. Researchers at the State University of New York at
Albany found that women who regularly came into contact with
semen were significantly less depressed than those who didn't get
a dose of those potent sex hormones and naturally occurring
opiates.

4.You'll reduce stress. People who get it on regularly report that
they handle stress better. The release of climax will get even the
most anxious lover totally relaxed, and you know you'll sleep
better.

5.You'll live longer (and look younger!). A British study of 1,000
men found that those who had at least two orgasms per week had
half the death rate of those who indulged less than once a month.
Sex can make you look longer, too, according to
neuropsychologist David Weeks, who found that men and women
who reported having sex an average of four times per week looked
approximately 10 years younger than they really were.

Of course, I know I�m preachin to the choir here. The biggest problem I see is how do we convince our low lib spouses that intimacy is important enough to make it one of the top priorities in our relationships. Were not just talking having a good time; we�re talking health issue.

I get so ticked for feeling guilty to wanting to make love to my wife. This is insane. Sooner just mentioned the same thing. This is so debilitating. How can we get this across? There almost needs to be a national campaign to Fix Our Sex Lives. I may come off a bit heavy handed here but I�m angry that so many peoples lives are affected by this.

Anyway, I guess I should put this up instead of ramblin on.

By the way, I broke my vow of silence and requested sex last night. She just rolled her eyes and said,�ugh�. I guess that was a �no�.

PO�ed AchingMan

my W was trying to convince me that sex once a month was normal and I was some kind of pervert for wanting more. It was my problem and not hers. I can so relate to your story as well as Sooner's. 1-2 times a day would be like paradise. Lateley is been 1-2 times a week which is like being let out of prison or something.

Hi Fred
Just because lots of people have screwed up sex lives and are only doing the monthly maintenance doesn't mean it's healthy or that's the way it should be. Why must our pleading and begging fall on deaf ears? Life could be so good...

Here's my Sunday night update:

Friday night my wife fell asleep on the couch in her clothes before the girls even went upstairs to bed. I took them upstairs, read them stories, and got them to sleep. When I came downstairs I was tempted to wake my wife up to see if she wanted to go get in bed, but I decided it would be nicer of me to let her sleep. I covered her with a blanket without waking her and went to bed early - before 10:30 (another exciting Friday night!). At some point during the night she came into the bedroom and got into bed, still in her jeans, without waking me. Before we awoke the next morning the girls had come downstairs and gotten into bed with us. She did thank me for covering her with the blanket later that morning.

Saturday we bought her a new vehicle - a very nice one. If all goes well we'll take delivery tomorrow - it has to be picked up from another dealership out of town. Both of us work and make nearly the same amount of money, so I can't say that I bought it for her - but I was the one to spend 2 or 3 hours up at the dealership by myself making the deal. Granted, she deserves it - she's been driving what used to be my old vehicle for over 5 years and hasn't complained. When I got back we went to dinner (with the girls), then after we got home she took them up to bed. As usual she fell asleep upstairs and didn't wake me when she came back downstairs in the middle of the night. Nothing happened this morning either.

Tonight I took the girls upstairs and had them to sleep by 9:30, but when I got back downstairs my wife was already asleep - so here I am. I'm not in a terribly miserable mood at the moment, but the lack of any real progress is starting to get to me a bit. I assume she's thinking "we're going to spend the weekend together in California and he's expecting something to happen while we're there, so considering that we just had sex Thursday morning I'm off the hook for a while". Of course, it's very possible that nothing may happen this weekend, but I'm trying to be very optimistic and keep from blowing up before then, which would pretty much ruin any possibility of anything happening. It's hard though - especially when much more than just sex I want my wife to crave me again like she used to - and like I still crave her. Don't get me wrong - I do want sex badly and would basically take any that I could get right now - but unpassionate sex, even if frequent, is not going to make me happy. When I've told my wife how much I miss kissing, and she still can't bring herself to kiss me even once (except for a goodbye "peck"), then I'm sure she doesn't crave me. And having sex without any kissing just convinces me more - it's like she can force herself to have unpassionate sex with me every couple of months, but kissing is just too intimate. I continue to feel completely undesirable and unwanted.

Just had to get all that off my chest.

Sooner

Hi Sooner,

I was thinking about this on Sunday afternoon:

More than just getting sex every once in a while (sometimes a damn long while!) or even more frequently I want my wife to feel passion for me again, to desire me, to hunger for our bodies and spirits to meld together in ardorous love, to connect. Like you I�m so hungry I�ll take whatever I can get (the reason why we can�t hold out until they initiate and then turn them down) but it is emotionally disappointing if she is not really connected, that is, deeply enjoying it (no pun intended) and considerably more pleasant afterwards. I�m almost afraid to have sex with her if it is not incredible for her because I know it is going to be a long time until we can try again. The space in between is the most uncomfortable.

I completely agree with you that the sex has to be passionate AND reasonably frequent, one extreme without the other is only halfway there.

Viva l�amour!

AchingMan

Hey low desire spouses -

Please read my last paragraph above starting with "I assume she's thinking..." and let me know if I'm on target relative to what might be going on in my wife's mind. I was sitting here at work and was just suddenly overcome with curiousity.

One other question, really for females in general. I'm a nice looking guy, smart, funny, successful, a good dad, and generally quite pleasant to be around. Yet I don't think my wife finds me even the slightest bit sexy anymore - at least if she does she manages to hide it quite well. I feel like you women have it easy because it's usually quite appealing when you try to be sexy. But men can't really get away with that - I mean it's not like we can walk into the room in a thong without just looking like dorks (I do realize that there may be exceptions). Anyway, I think you probably get my point. What can a guy do that might really drive a woman wild? I honesly have no idea. Before my wife and I started dating, I overheard her talking about how the cologne that this guy was wearing just drove her wild. He was at least 60 years old and it wasn't as if she was even the slightest bit attracted to him - it was just that particular smell. I went out that night and bought the same cologne, which may very well be what got my wife interested in me - who knows? But I continue to wear that cologne to this day and I guess my wife must have become "immune" to it. I'm interested in any opinions - is there a cologne, something I could wear, a certain way of acting, a certain way I could touch her - anything that might suddenly make her see me as sexy again? I realize every woman is different, but I'm curious what anyone has to say.

Thus ends my curiousity post.

Sooner

Aching,

Many times I've thought to myself the next time she initiates anything I'm going to say "I'm really tired - please just let me sleep" or "please don't touch me, that tickles" or "the girls have been crawling all over me all evening, do you think I want you to do the same" or "I'd rather not - I just don't feel very close to you right now" or "please just leave me alone" - just so she'd know how it feels. But like you said, when you're starving you take anything you can get. I honestly think I could be miserably ill and I still wouldn't turn her down. That just makes me feel even more like a fool!

By the way, nice writing! (to hunger for our bodies and spirits to meld together in ardorous love, etc.). You should do romance novels.

Sooner

Howdy Sooner,

I've been wondering the same things about what is it really that turns women on about guys. If I knew I'd be a love guru. What is becoming apparent to me is that the problem is not that I am not attractive or a nice guy or muscular enough. For a long time I thought maybe I wasn't good looking enough or sweet enough. I am realizing that this is not really about me. Some quite attractive women seem charmed by me and a couple have told me frankly that my sensitivity, kindness and appearance (average by my opinion) made me very attractive and they were as bewildered as I was about my wife not thinking I was an incredible stud. I'm thinking that maybe some chemistries just don't mix right, in other words maybe our phermones are working in one direction; our wives are attracting us but we're not attracting them. How else do you explain the overwhelmingly irrational attraction to someone that rejects you constantly?

Just some thoughts, I could be wrong...

AchingMan

I also wanted to mention a phermone that I've just began using in cologne (maybe what that old guy your wife was lusting after was wearing) check out www.athenainstatute.com

So far I haven't been able to measure any results from my wife, but strangely it seems that other women in general are just a bit nicer to me. This stuff was recommended by a friend's wife's gynocologist. Worth checking out. I'd like to compare notes with another guy that is using it.

Sooner,

The other fear about saying something like "Oh, no thank you, dear, I'm just not in the mood to devour you tonight..." is that she would not believe it and either think that you are finally cheating on her or that you're being a cold-hearted jerk that is taking revenge. In either case, at least for me, it would lead to problems. I'd love to be able to be the one in control for a change instead of the dog begging for a bone.

AchingMan

Aching,

Thanks for the input. I've always wondered about those pheromones - might be worth a try! Like you, I've had women on several occasions act like I was plenty desirable - if nothing else the attention helps to make me feel as if I'm not a complete loser. But I could do without any attention from other women if I could just get some attention from the woman that I'm in love with.

I agree that if I were to turn down one of my wife's "annual" advances, I'd either come across as a jerk trying to get some revenge (which I probably would be I suppose) or as being uninterested due to having an affair. Doesn't really matter - I don't think I could possibly turn her down anyway - and if I did it would probably only be if I were having an affair after having completely giving up on her. Hope it never comes to that - I don't plan on it anyway.

Sooner

If you turned down sex then you'd be playing your W's game. Why pretend you don't want it and add to your misery? If you turned down her advance she'd probably just be relieved and roll over and go to sleep and you'd accomplish nothing. These are the conclusions I came up with when thinking your exact thoughts, cause I've certainly had them. I've gone 3 months before without ititiating and my W didn't even notice.

A few months ago I took the day off on Valentines day, got all dressed up, picked my wife up from work (she had to work a half day) and then took her to the fancy mall in town. She didn't tell me I looked nice or anything but I noticed other women checking me out. It made me realize that my W low desire wasn't from me being unattractive (at least not to every woman!) and that somehow made me feel better.

How well do you know your wife? Do you know what she thought about when she was a little girl? What her favorite thing to do was when she was 10? What is her biggest dream and right now does she still have hopes of achieving it? What holds her back and what moves her toward it? What does she feel is the best part of her being? What would she most like to change about herself?

What was the most traumatic moment of her life? What was the best? What makes her heart sing? What makes it break? If she could have any talent or skill she wanted, what would it be? What is she most afraid of? When does she feel fearless? What does she yearn for? What is she most proud of?

Has she ever experienced utter shame and does she feel safe enough telling you about it? What kind of man does she hope her daughters will fall in love with? Does she think about growing old? How does she see herself during those years? Does she look on her life so far with a sense of pride or regret? Why? Does she look toward the future with hope or despair? Why?

Does she wonder if anyone cares as much about her as she does about all the people she takes care of? Does she have secrets she�s never told a soul? Is there a part of her she�s aching to tell you about?

The questions are infinite when it comes to getting to know another person intimately. This weekend when you�re away together alone, think about really getting to know your wife and sharing your soul with her. It�s sexy as hell.

MPT

Hi, I've been following your post because in many of it you sound like you could have taken then words right off my mouth. I always thought that men and women see intimacy in a very different light but from what I've read, its not very different at all. We all need to be needed and wanted by our spouses. I am the HD W in my M and I have trouble understanding why it got this way. H doesn't talk about it and I feel like an old shoe to him now. I've told him that even an old shoe sometimes needs a polish. No response. I've told him how much I miss his smell and his kiss. I now get goodnight pecks on the lips. Its an improvement since I had to be the one to give goodnight pecks on the cheeks before this. Nothing remotely passionate or sensual. I just don't get it. I mean if I were him and my W tells me how crazy she is about me and how much she misses me, I would say "Come here" then give her a big kiss and a hug. What is so difficult about that? Instead when I tell him how I'm yearning for him, he tells me I'm stressing him. I mean, I feel stressed up and in need of sleep too and what better way to destress and get better sleep than to connect with the one you love in an intimate way.

Sorry, I'm digressing. I'm responding to your curiousity post to females in general. In my opinion, women are not such visual creatures like men but smells does what sight does not. I love my H's natural smell or certain colognes he uses or the smell of him fresh from a shower, or after a beer (not five!), or sometimes even all sweaty too. I agree that your W may have gotten immune to the old cologne. Try something new with the same base ingredients or use a different one for sometime then revert to the old familiar smell.

Hope that helps and hope you have a nice weekend. How about trying room service and a bottle of champayne. In the good old days before my M became SSM H and I enjoyed that very much. In the meantime work on the afffection part. You don't have to leave touching your W to just when you are alone and in bed. You can include your girls. I love it when I hold my baby in my arms and H comes and hugs both of us in his arms or play peek a boo with baby behind my shoulders. Or you could encourage your girls to give mummy a massage while you are having family time. One girl in charge of hands, one in charge of feet and you massage the shoulders. I don't know a W who could reject a H in this situation. Mother's Day is coming. Why don't you take your girls shopping for a gift for mummy on your own so that your W gets to do her own thing. It will do wonders to rejuvenate her. I read in a research that the most stressed up individuals are working mothers with young children. It is not easy to be constantly in demand of your kids, your boss, your H. You lose yourself in the process. You hardly have any time for yourself. These days, even finishing the papers and drinking a cup of tea or coffee uninterupted is a luxury to me. Pamper your W, let her find herself again before she reconnects with you. Another thing that crosses my mind is the fact that is she working because she wants to or for financial reasons. Some women get so torn up with guilt etc when they can't take care of their kids themselves. Do you know what are her stresses? Reduce them and hopefully she will find time to be in the mood again. Just a women't perspective of things for you. Maybe it will help, maybe not. Maybe you can give me a men's perspective in my post.
LH

Hmm.. I just saw MPT's post after I posted. So maybe you can bare your soul over champayne so your wife won't get pressured thinking that you are after one thing only. Yes, that would be very nice indeed.

MPT - you're right, I don't know the answers to a lot of those questions - and it bothers me that I don't. Those are great examples and I appreciate all the thought that you put into your reply. I would love to be able to talk to my wife on that level - to really know her. I think that's a critical part of the marriage relationship. Unfortunately my wife doesn't open up very often - she keeps everything to herself and acts like certain parts of her life are none of my business. I don't really think that she grasps the "two become one" concept of marriage. When I've tried to ask her questions in order to get to know her better, she usually reacts as if I'm giving her the third degree - like I'm trying to find out something to use against her. That's never my intent, although I'm sure my approach could use some work. I'll give some thought to what you've said and try to work in such questions more often when I have an opportunity. Thank you as always.

luvhubby - thank you for your response as well. I honestly don't know if my wife ever likes a certain way that I smell - sure wish I knew. I may be spending all of my time trying to smell clean when I should really be staying sweaty!

You've given me some great suggestions - I especially like the full-family massage. My wife works because we can't currently afford for her not to - and the things you've said are right on the money. I think she does feel that she's lost herself between work, the kids, and numerous other committments that come up. She has said that she never has any time to herself. I should probably offer to take the kids off her hands more often, although she seems to feel left out if we run off and leave her. Also, she's said that she feels guilty that she can't be home with the girls every day. Our 5-year old is in a half day pre-K program and I know it bothers my wife to think about not being able to see the girls off to school every morning and greet them at home every day. I'm hoping that we'll eventually be able to get by on my income alone so that she can quit working and be a stay-at-home-mom, or at least cut back to only a few hours per week. But for now all I can do is sympathize and try to understand how she feels. Thanks so much - your comments have been helpful.

Sooner

By the way, I know that I probably come across as negative concerning every suggestion that anyone gives me (i.e. I'd like to do that but...). However I'm really not as pessimistic as I may seem - I'm basically playing devil's advocate with each suggestion based on how I THINK my wife will react. In many cases I'm sure she'll react differently than I'd expected and I believe that some combination of the suggestions I've gotten on this message board will eventually make a huge difference in our relationship. Just didn't want to discourage anyone from offering suggestions - I really do appreciate them very much.

Sooner

My W seems to be from the same mold as yours I think. Her past is her business. She doesn't have any goals (I have asked many times). She lives for today and doesn't spend any time thinking more than a few months ahead at the very most (she has no appreciation for retirement planning!). She doesn't open up to me or anyone and doesn't seem to have that need. She doesn't even want "to talk about her feelings" like the stereotypical woman.

Quote:

She doesn't even want "to talk about her feelings" like the stereotypical woman.

sounds more like the stereotypical man to me.

LL

I was lurking and naturally, being the typical male that I am.....I had to wade into this thread.

Questions: ( for all of us )

-When was the last time you made her feel special for no particular reason at all ?

-Sent flowers for no particular reason?

-Boosted her self esteem with a positive comment about something that's important to HER ? ( guys.....this is a BIGGIE !)

-Treated her like a "date" ?

-Changed your cologne...oops you did that. ...Try "Farenheight" by Christian Dior....or "Mania" by Armani....or "Curve" by......( I forgot).

-Took her to a nice quiet restaurant and just listened to her talk, while looking deep into her eyes , while smiling ?

- Poured white zinfadel into a fresh strawberry's center and fed it to her ?

-Casually complemented her new outfit...purse...shoes...hairdo....anything ?

- REALLY listened and HEARD her ? Without offering advice!

- "Hmm....honey...that's a tough one....but I like your idea about such and such...I have faith in you......you can work it out..." etc.

-Just held her without initiating sex ?

-When was the last time did any of us do the things we did to make them fall in love with us in the first place ?

Obvious questions, I know. But I'm doing it all now with my new lady....and trust me.....it's made a world of difference. She stays "lit up" when I apply these things in earnest.

I send fresh flowers for her desk at work each and every week. ( drives the other office girls wild with envy, too..which makes her proud!) It only costs me $25 a week and we all know that a good date is going to cost at least $100....right ? Money well spent.

When was the last time you bought her some little gift for no reason and didnt expect sex for it ?

Treat her like a princess.....and she will become one.

Besides.......if it doesnt work out with her........I can promise that her friends will be available later on, if they know how she was treated......chuckle...just kidding.

BM

BM has some good suggestions!

I know for me personally, I work full time in a high stress environment. After working all week, doing housework on the weekends, listening to STBX talk, cooking etc., all I could think about were naps - sex was often the last thing on my mind.

There were times when STBX was in the mood and I just wanted to go to sleep so I could be rested for work the next day!

I know something that would have worked for me would have been to come home and find all of the housework done, a nice romantic dinner, candles, a massage... Maybe if you surprise your W so that when she comes home one evening, she has nothing else to worry about - maybe she will have the mental energy to think about making love to you. When us women have a million responsibilities running around in our heads, our sex drive does tend to go into low gear.

BTW - I cannot speak for all women, but most of my friends and I - we prefer silk boxers on our men!

Just my two cents!

Good Luck!

Manisha

I must be a man in a womans body then..cuase honestly though it would be nice if h lit candles, put on silk boxers, made dinner, put on some music, dressed nice, wore cologne, did the chores...took care of the kids etc...it really isn't all that needed...I'm happy if h simply "wants" to be with me whatever the circumstance!

LL

BigMouth,

I thought I'd try to answer your questions.

-When was the last time you made her feel special for no particular reason at all? I try to do this frequently, although I'm not always successful. Sometimes what I think will make her feel special actually doesn't.

-Sent flowers for no particular reason? I've brought her flowers for no particular reason on several occasions recently. The last time, less than a week ago was actually for a specific reason - to thank her for making an effort to work on our problems (okay, for sex if you prefer). But otherwise it's been for no particular reason. Not long ago while out of town I sent her a balloon bouquet at work with a card saying that I just wanted to let her know that I appreciate her and love her. She liked that. I think that sending things (flowers, etc.) to her work makes more of an impact than bringing them home myself, so I should probably try to do that more often. I like your idea about sending fresh flowers for her desk at work every week.

-Boosted her self esteem with a positive comment about something that's important to HER? I try to do this as often as I can. Sometimes works, sometimes doesn't.

-Treated her like a "date"? I still open the door for her etc. but I'm sure I could always do better.

-Changed your cologne? Actually I haven't changed mine yet, but I probably will soon.

-Took her to a nice quiet restaurant and just listened to her talk, while looking deep into her eyes , while smiling? I've done that, but I was frowning instead of smiling. Just kidding actually.

- Poured white zinfadel into a fresh strawberry's center and fed it to her? Never done that one.

-Casually complemented her new outfit, purse, shoes, hairdo, anything? I try to compliment her on such things whenever I can. Still, I'm sure that more complements wouldn't hurt (if sincere).

- REALLY listened and HEARD her? Without offering advice! I'm working on this - I usually try to be a problem solver and I've finally figured out that trying to solve the problem only makes things worse. I think I'm doing better at just listening and hearing.

-Just held her without initiating sex? Did that this morning actually.

-When was the last time you bought her some little gift for no reason and didnt expect sex for it? I do that quite a bit actually - and I really never expect sex for anything that I do. After not getting any long enough, there's not much reason to expect it anymore.

Guess I'd better get back to work. Thanks for the suggestions.

Sooner

I don't think you're all that different from other women. In fact I don't think men and women are all that different. If you pay attention to form rather than content, the messages are very much the same: "I want my spouse to be interested in me in the way that makes me feel like they care about me and in the way where I feel a real connection."

Developing a wide variety of ways in which one can feel connected to one's spouse has been feeling very healthy for our relationship. Helps prevent that old problem of all eggs being in one basket, whatever the basket may be.

MPT

I think Sooner would agree with me that it's not that we would exactly expect sex for our little gifts and kindnesses, rather it is the act of giving to her, the expression of the tenderness and shear love that we feel in that moment of pure generosity that causes an arousal in us. You see, not all men are horny simpletons. We may be horny but the nature of our sexuality and identity does not make us beastly or cavemanlike. This is a socially induced myth, an ideology that has damaged our reputation beyond repair. For a man (forgive me, horny women, I can't speak for you), physical intimacy with our wives is simply the most profound expression of our love and connection to them. Apparently, this is often not the case from their perspective, as they appear to believe a selfless nonsexual act, such as as surprise mopping of the floor or a long discussion about her interests, is a more profound expression of love. For many men I think that meeting her needs along these lines would be more natural if she met our sexual needs from the perspective of what we need; and vice versa: if men met their wives needs maybe they would in turn become more sexually involved. It's a chicken-and-the-egg problem: who starts? Unfortunately, so far, my 15 yrs experience tells me otherwise. That is, my generosity and kindness seems to have little effect on a reciprocal act of kindness in the sexual realm, where my (our) greatest needs are. I find little corelation between giving and receiving. Receiving tends to be more closely related to the alignment of the planets and a set of circumstances so complex that Einstein gave up trying to figure out the Theory of Feminine Sexuality. The Theory of Relativity proved much easier to comprehend.

How do we get our low-lib spouses to realize that, aside from real physical needs, our sexual drive is built around the profound intimate expression of our love? Is there anything that is done on a daily basis that is such a powerful expression? You can only die for someone once. I honestly have a really hard time understanding how mopping the floor or other such acts can rate so high.

Are their many guys out there that are withholding sex from their wives because the dishes haven't been done or because the kids were bratty at the dinner table?

Are there women out there that would rather have their husbands ravish them ardorously on the stairs halfway through washing the dishes because their passionate love took over their self-control?

Just curious,

AchingMan

Quote:

Are there women out there that would rather have their husbands ravish them ardorously on the stairs halfway through washing the dishes because their passionate love took over their self-control?

here!!

I've told my h many times that I do not mind doing the house work at all..I don't mind doing the laundry cleaning the house caring for the kids etc...but resentment about doing these things and NOT getting some physical contact from him makes me angry that I do all these things...makes me feel like I'm just his mother or something...now if halfway up the stairs or in the middle of folding laundry or doing the dishes or sitting watching tv or sleeping or talking or whenever h would initiate sexual closeness...I'd be happy to do 10 loads of laundry and not complain at all about it!!

LL

I agree with everything you said. The chicken and the egg, doing the giving but getting no receiving, all that. I think the HD spouse is almost powerless to stop the cycle. The LD spouse has much more power to get things on track.

Lostlove,

Wow! I'm impressed! If only your husband could see that he's got a real keeper. Imagine a woman that wants to have her man to get spicy with her and doesn't mind doing the housework! My wife hates the housework (so I do most of it) and hates sex (so I twiddle my thumbs).

I move that we get everybody lined up against the wall then pair the passionate guys with the passionate gals and the low libido guys with the low libido gals. After a few years check and see who's having the most fun. Any guesses?

Hang in sweetheart, you're worth it!

AchingMan

Quote:

I move that we get everybody lined up against the wall then pair the passionate guys with the passionate gals and the low libido guys with the low libido gals. After a few years check and see who's having the most fun. Any guesses?

been told that we still wouldn't be happy...we'd simply find something else to complain about...oh well!

Quote:

Hang in sweetheart, you're worth it!

wonder if he realizes that.

LL

Quoting lostlove:
I've told my h many times that I do not mind doing the house work at all..I don't mind doing the laundry cleaning the house caring for the kids etc...but resentment about doing these things and NOT getting some physical contact from him makes me angry that I do all these things...makes me feel like I'm just his mother or something...now if halfway up the stairs or in the middle of folding laundry or doing the dishes or sitting watching tv or sleeping or talking or whenever h would initiate sexual closeness...I'd be happy to do 10 loads of laundry and not complain at all about it!!

LL

You are so right though of course it is always nice when H helps without being asked when he notices that I am overwhelmed by work. Keyword here is notices.

Flowers every week? I am more touched when H buys me a new hairband to replace my old one because he noticed the one I was wearing is broken.

Candlelit dinners? It can be just as nice eating takeout at home when we talk, laugh and simply enjoy each others company. Anywhere is nice, not necessarily a restaurant.

Compliments, great only if sincere. In other words, little things we do for each other and together, whatever they may be count a lot more. What is the use of flowers, compliments, gifts if you do not treat each other in a loving, thoughtful, caring and considerate manner?

Interesting thread....
To Achingman:

Quote:

For many men I think that meeting her needs along these lines would be more natural if she met our sexual needs from the perspective of what we need; and vice versa: if men met their wives needs maybe they would in turn become more sexually involved.

We men simply cannot treat this as we would a business deal.
The operate word in the above quote is "IF"... ( it's used twice)

It's NOT about sex........it's about intimacy...and REALLY knowing the lady......having her trust you enough, to be able to tell you all that she would tell a girlfriend.
~Communication.~

I DO housework. You know why? Because she works all day at the office.....and I simply dont expect her to come home and work even more. She doesnt have to ask me, nor bribe me.....I just do it because I love her...and want to help out. This is important to her. It was easy to notice that she appreciates it. I like the look on her face when she walks in the door.

We men dont LISTEN to the non verbal communications that women transmit sometimes. She shouldnt HAVE to ask us....
( that seems to be some of their attitudes...and that's OK with me.)

Each lady is different. Getting to know them is the fun part. I was with a wonderful lady for 20 years and knew her better than her own family. But I didnt know enough.

My hindsight is 20/20, of course. I may make mistakes with my new lady........but they certainly wont be the same ones that I made before.

Lack of sexual drive in a lady is a SYMPTOM of other issues that we men miss in our evaluation process. It is a by product....and rarely the issue itself.

She needs to receive something she isnt presently getting, in order to feel close enough to you to want to give of herself.

I liked the hairband example from the female poster above.
These are the kinds of things that this particular lady responds to. My new lady is the same way. I drove her Pathfinder one day last month and noticed that it needed new shocks. I didnt make a big deal about it. I just bought them and installed them. I expected nothing.

But you know what happened ? She said "Thank you baby !"...with a genuine sparkle in her eyes and smile on her face.

She felt loved. Period. That's all it took for her that day.

Listen to her heart. It doesnt yell at you....but it is quietly trying to tell you something. And when you learn it's language........you're in for a real treat !
The intimacy begins to return. The closeness. Then the lust...but only for the man she loves.

This is a learning process...and once you begin to see and HEAR......it's a wonderful ride ! ( no pun intended..)
( Ok...I lied....maybe a small pun !)

BM

Quote:

My new lady is the same way. I drove her Pathfinder one day last month and noticed that it needed new shocks. I didnt make a big deal about it. I just bought them and installed them. I expected nothing.

But you know what happened ? She said "Thank you baby !"...with a genuine sparkle in her eyes and smile on her face.

I had to smile when you posted this. It reminded me of the time my h spontaneously replaced the spring lock on the back door with a deadbolt. I hadn't even thought about it, but he said he just felt better about my safety that way. I felt really loved. He had a really good time that evening. I see a new marketing campaign for shocks, deadbolts, smoke detectors, and outdoor lighting.

Quote:

Lack of sexual drive in a lady is a SYMPTOM of other issues that we men miss in our evaluation process. It is a by product....and rarely the issue itself.

Having gone from an LD spouse who was really struggling with trying to stay sexually active with my h to a "can- barely-get-enough" spouse, I have to agree with this statement, at least in my case. Sometimes it is a symptom of something within us, within our relationship, in our lives in general, even something completely unrelated to our feelings for our spouse/lover, or a combination. Worry about my business interferes with my drive. My h's reassurance that he will still be with me even if we're living in a cardboard box helps bring it back.

MPT

It's Sunday night and my wife and I just got back from California. The weekend didn't go as I had hoped. Her flight was delayed Thursday night and finally arrived at 11:30 Pacific Time (1:30 a.m. back home). I picked her up at the airport and took her to the hotel. She was worn out from the long night of traveling so I knew there was no chance of anything romantic happening that night. As usual we fell asleep three feet apart from each other in a king sized bed. Nothing happened the next morning either, although I didn't expect it to.

Nonetheless, our first day together was very nice. We had breakfast at a little place on the water while in view of the USS Abraham Lincoln which had just returned to port. We could see all of the sailors lined up around the perimeter of the ship as we ate. Next we did some shopping at a couple of nice places in San Diego and mainly bought souvenirs for our girls. We then crossed the border and spent 3 or 4 hours looking around Tijuana while holding hands most of the time. Of course she was probably just scared of the locals (kidding actually).

After we crossed back into the states, we found her uncle's old condo on the beach where she had stayed for a while during the summer several years ago (before we met). It was getting dark so we drove back downtown and had dinner, then we headed back to the hotel. Again, we went to sleep without so much as a kiss or a cuddle. The next morning I cuddled up to her a little, and pretty quickly she hopped out of bed to get in the shower (without inviting me to join her of course).

I lost it at that point. I had planned to just have a good time together and basically pretend to be happy even if nothing romantic happened the whole weekend. If I could at least have done that, maybe she would start to enjoy being alone with me - without dreading the possibility of the sex argument. But I screwed up and said something - I don't even remember what - and the sex argument got started. The rest of the trip was miserable for both of us. I became a complete jerk, said things that I'm sure she'll hold against me for the rest of our lives, and as usual I wouldn't let the argument die. I hate myself when I become that person, so I obviously wouldn't expect my wife to love me either. I am utterly stupid!

We're back home now, with our girls, and we're getting along okay at the moment - back to being roommates again I suppose. But I've now realized that things will probably never get any better as long as I continue to try and fix them. I feel like a fool. I've worked so hard to try and become the perfect husband and to try and understand what my wife might be going through. I understand that she didn't intentionally lose her sex drive, and I don't blame her for that one bit. But it makes me so mad that she can know, at least to a point, how badly I'm hurting over this, yet she's unwilling to put any effort into fixing the problem. Granted, she's made a couple of very minimal efforts - I'll give her that - but my happiness is way down on her priority list. I feel like she's being completely selfish.

I'm to the point that I want to stop caring, but I don't know how. I won't neglect my responsibilities as her "roommate", but I also don't really care to keep doing things just for her. I could be the most affectionate, loving, thoughful husband in the world, but why should I be when my happiness is not the least bit important to her. I had hopes of taking weekend trips without the kids more often, going on "dates", or even just watching an occasional movie together after the girls go to sleep. I was planning to send her flowers weekly for no reason. But I don't plan to do those things anymore. It occurs to me that a big part of my falling in love with my wife was the fact that she was in love with me. I don't belive that she is anymore, and while I'll always love her, I think that eventually I'll no longer be "in love" with her. That's the only thing I can think of that might make the hurt I'm feeling right now go away. I honestly believe that nothing I could possibly do will fix our problems - so why keep trying? My wife has to decide on her own that she wants a loving, intimate relationship with me, and if she should do that I'll give her more love than she ever dreamed of - assuming it's not too late anyway.

Why does marriage have to involve the same stupid games that you play when you're dating?

Sooner

Sorry to hear about your weekend. Mine was somewhat similar. Spent all weekend busting my butt to get things ready for my daughter's 3rd birthday party. Airing up inflatable pools, moving lawn furniture, mulching and watering flower beds, etc. My W even told me a couple times that my hard work deserved a "reward". But, the reward never came because she was too tired. Then she tried to snuggle with me which shortly turned into her snoring loudly about 3 inches away from my ear. Eventually the Tylenol PM knocked me out. So, like yours, what should have been a very good weekend that built our closeness was ruined.

Thoughts of leaving her have returned after being banished for a few weeks. I could have written your exact words in your last "roomate" paragraph. I'm starting off the week feeling lower than dirt, self esteem in the dumps and wishing for a different life. I had a card to give her that I threw in the trash this morning. And, I will not be sending her flowers this week.

FredD

Fred,

Sorry to hear your W wasn't as conducive to your goals this weekend as you wanted her to be. I'd kill to have my W snuggle next to me again I don't care if she snored to wake up the neighborhood. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that your hard work this weekend was intended to get results that benefitted yourself, rather than doing it because you genuinely love and/or can give unconditionally. She noticed how hard you were working and commented to that effect and even attempted at getting close to you physically. I would venture to say there are many of us that would take those results and call it a day. Its your last two sentences that sums of your atitude in my mind. I can understand the frustration, I'm just unclear as to how that attitude is conducive to getting your W back, if thats what you really want to do. I think the most difficult part of DBing is having to sacrifice our own needs for the betterment of keeping our M alive. I've been able to do that for the last month and allthough I haven't seen immediate results, my sitch has stabilized, yet still on life support. Hope you have a sincere change of heart the next few days in terms of expecting too much too fast.

My goal for my hard work was only to make sure my daughter had a good birthday party, which she did indeed have. My sitch came off life support several weeks back and we had made some substantial progress dealing with the SSM issues. Seems we're having a relapse now though. Despite all the "research" time here on the message board and reading the SSM book, I still find myself feeling the same old thoughts from being rejected. And like Sooner, today I don't feel like being the "nice guy" and the negative behaviors have returned.

I am a walking contradiction. Today I'm not following my own mantra - see my new "signature" below.

FredD

Fred,

I hear ya, i contradict myself in my mind all the time, human nature, mine stems from anger and resentment. Yet it fuels me to keep going when all hope appears lost at this point.

I'm sorry, Sooner. I was really hoping you were going to have something good to report. I know you were too.

You sound like someone who needs a break. Why not go ahead and take one? Fulfill your responsibilities and continue to be kind. I know you will. But take care of yourself too. What about that hobby you mentioned taking up?

You're right about there only being so much you can do and the rest being up to your wife. I know it is hard to stop trying to "do" something that will lead to the desired behavior from your wife. But maybe it is time to be still. Sometimes things don't change until you become still and allow the other person to come to you. It would be different from what you have been doing. Hard, yes, I know.

My H told me he had learned to tell me what he was feeling or wanted and then to give me space. He said he had learned to trust me and that I would find my way to working it out, but that I couldn't be pushed into it. Maybe your wife needs a clear, non-angry, non-blaming statement from you about what you want and then the space to work it out on her own.

MPT

Hi Sooner & Fred,

I was sad to read both of your messages. Getting to the end of your rope is an ugly place to be. I�ve been there many times, then later I somehow think that there is still hope and give it another shot (usually after seeing my lady step out of the shower!). I think that most of the 5,000+ nights we�ve gone to bed together since St. Sexe quit blessing our marriage have left me laying there with the crushing weight of disappointment and frustration that is rejection. That is a lot of wasted get-down-and-boogie time, Y�all. Just think about how many smiling days that could equal (I�m talking about the post-lovemaking idiot grin that takes about 50 lbs of our shoulders the next day)

I don�t know how many days that I planned something special (flowers, dinner, weekend away...whatever) for my wife that never led to a special response. She enjoys the favor but doesn�t necessarily reciprocate. That makes me feel like I�m being used. It�s not that I plan those events (well, not always) with the goal of getting laid in mind but rather doing sweet or romantic things for her benefit gives me a huge turn-on. Even doing non-romantic favors for her (out of genuine kindness) turns me on big time. I can�t get away from this!

I just read The BOOK (I�m not talking about the bible) and gained a lot of insight but perhaps more than anything it was a validation, a confirmation of what I have felt and believed. It made me realize that I am not a sexual deviant or bad person because I want to have an active sex life. I actually believe now that I am not really a high libido person, rather a medium high if you base it on straight physical need. I think that if you add the need for intimacy (not just an orgasm) to the formula then the results show me as an extremely high libido. This is the distinction that many of us here on the site have been describing.

This is the first book I�ve read that is real (I�ve read quite a few sex/relationship help books). It strikes at the heart of issues and describes them frankly and honestly. Finally, a woman that publicly admits that sex is a good thing! I�m going to employ a reversal technique (do the opposite of what isn�t working) of doing FEWER gestures of romance and pretend that I don�t really want sex (in other words bite my tongue until it bleeds) while still being civil. I�m still utterly puzzled that the fact that I am trying to improve our relationship is, according to what my wife has told me, the problem.

Here�s a question for Michele: If being kind and generous isn�t working then is being a bit more stormy tempered the answer? Is it possible that starting a relationship being nice and kind is actually a mistake? I see the husbands that have started out in the marriage pretty rough; they cause a lot of pain and frustration for their wives for a while, then make a few upgrades and the wife is ecstatic that she�s getting positive changes in the relationship. Could it be that starting rough gives the woman (or a low libido guy) something to smooth out? Perhaps we nice guys made a mistake by starting with the bar way too high for us to keep up with, therefore the expectations for change from the low libber�s viewpoint are farther out of reach.

Let me see if I can effectively illustrate what I�m trying to get at: Let�s say there�s this new husband and he�s a bit of a lazy bastard, never even remember�s their anniversary or her birthday, calls her �fat bitch� and has gained a big old whopping beer gut in the couple years that they�ve been married. His wife is aching for him to change his ways. She approaches him with her issues. He acts like a lightbulb has gone off and starts working out, brings her flowers occasionally, and gives her a romantic dinner on her birthday. The bar for measuring the difference between his previous character and the change was very low. This is why I think you fellows, (Sooner and FredD) are having a tough time like me. We started out too nice now there�s not enough room to go up. Bringing her flowers has less of an impact than it does for Ol� Fat Bastard. When he brings flowers she thinks there�s been a miracle and is happier than hell.

I�m getting away from my pep talk for you boys (I shouldn�t be talking since my sex life sucks, but somehow it is easier to help someone else than to help yourself.) Anyway, my point is that I know for me that exposure to the stimuli (i.e. hot lady that I�m insanely and passionately in love with...) causes a lot of pain and frustration. It could be that in our situations that we need to give them more room and give ourselves more distance from the object of our desire. I know this is only helps temporarily but when you�re just about to go insane then desperate measures need to be taken. Get away for a day or so, give something to yourself, try out a new hobby, hang out with friends. Yeah, I know these are lame ideas but getting a little break from the object of your frustration might be the next best thing to basking in its radiation. I actually miss my lady�s love more when she�s right next to me than when I�m physically away from her. I�m not sure it all that makes any sense.

I had a no show weekend, as well. Been working out at Gold�s gym to help deal with some frustrations. Helps a little, temporarily.

Better luck tomorrow for us all,

AchingMan

Sooner,

MPT is right. You do need a break. Go and do something nice for yourself. You will feel better and it will take your mind off things. This is just one of the down days. I too have several kinds of days like the following which I think you will understand too:

1. Very positive Days - I will change myself and hopefully things will improve.
2. Despair Days - I've tried everything and nothing works. I can't sleep, I cry myself to sleep.
3. I Give Up Days - I give up! I give up trying, I give up being nice. I give up feeling anything.
4. Cloud 9 Days - Needs no further explanation.

You're just having a I Give Up Day but you will feel better. And don't ever forget that your W is probably feeling very miserable right now too. As you've said, she hardly has time for herself, and when she does, she feels she has to spend it with the girls coz she feels guilty about not being with them more. She also probably feel she has to meet your needs but for some reason, stress, hormonal or whatever, the libido is not there and now more stress from argument over what was a nice weekend to begin with.

Please, please try not to have the sex argument. I think you have made it clear enough to her, an argument isn't going to help improve things. You will just bring up more and more unrelated issues in the argument which will just drive her further and further away, not closer.

Now, you go and do something nice for yourself and hopefully you will go back to having a postive day.

Fred D, I like your signature!

Hey Sooner,

Man that stinks! To some degree I know how you feel. For some reason whenever H and I go out of town, that's when we have our biggest relationship fights. I think being away from all other distractions allows whatever is brewing deep inside us to surface and it just spills out.

Easter weekend, we went to beach for 3 days with another couple. I looked at him the wrong way, he snapped at me in front of our friends I went to the bathroom, and slammed the door. Our friends went on without us while we had an all day fight/discussion. We said very hurtful things to eachother. Lots of tears and talk of D. It was horrible and embarrassing.

But...as you know the fights don't last forever and the bright side is that we both got some stuff out into the open. And since we got back we have had long needed conversations and intimate time together.

We yell and talk loud when we feel as if our message is not being heard. It sounds like your W isn't hearing you. I also agree with MPT, maybe it's time to do some stuff for you. Cheer yourself up.

I know that this is frusturating for you and I am sorry for your pain. I however am glad you are posting here because it helps me see what kind of emotions my H was probably going through when I was not having sex with him. I don't ever want him to feel that way again. I didn't know how deeply the rejection went. Hearing you talk helps me stay focused and determined to never reject him again. I hope that very soon your W will come to realize the same thing. Until then, stay strong.

Warmest Regards
Jen

Aman

I don't see anything about know her love languages, and you meeting them.

Also are you filling her love tank?

Poe

I'm out of town on business and just got a chance to check up on my latest post. I just wanted to let everyone know that I truly appreciate your support and concern - it helps more that you could imagine (well, I suppose maybe some of you could imagine). Your replies have convinced me that I should definitely take a break, and I now feel a lot better about doing so.

AchingMan, I know exactly what you mean when you say that you miss your wife's love more when she's right next to you than when you're away from her. The same thing happens to me - I travel quite a bit, but I often feel the lonliest when I'm home and there's still no physical contact with my wife. At least when I'm away from home I have no hope of anything physical happening.

Jen, your Easter weekend fight with your husband sounds exactly like my weekend in California. I'm often amazed at the similarities between my situation and those of so many other people.

Thank you all so much.

Sooner

Weekly update: Still "taking a break" and trying to give my wife some room to sort things out in her own mind. I'm trying not to care so much - to stop feeling hurt and miserable all the time - but that's easier said than done. Reading through some of the posts on here last night I was nearly in tears because it seems like everyone else is having at least some amount of success while I'm having none. Don't get me wrong - I'm extremely happy for anyone that's having success - it's just that I'd like to have some too. I'm tired of sitting up every night reading these posts or finding some other way to kill time just because I don't want to keep going to bed alone.

Something else that doesn't help - when I was out of town last week the couple in the hotel room next to me had sex several times throughout the night. The woman was quite vocal (at times) and hearing her just reminded me of how badly I want to have nights like that with my wife. It's hard to explain how much it hurts.

Happy Mother's Day to all of you Moms.

Sooner

Hang in there Sooner. I understand how everything brings your thoughts back to the SSM sitch. My thoughts never stray too far away either. My sitch is only just a little better than yours, but I'm still hopefull.

FredD

It hurts even more when you see or hear somebody else enjoying a good rogering. This reminds me how I felt in high school when I was a pencil necked geek. I wanted a girlfriend so bad but I was too much of a literature nerd and the ladies didn't look my way. When I got to college I began working out and got some style things changed. You hear what women are really interested in having a guy that's sensitive: then why is it that I didn't get any attention until I grew 45 lbs of muscle and spent more money on one pair of shoes than previously spent on the whole wardrobe? Doing dozens of pushups doesn't make me any more sensitive than before. If anything, I'm less sensitive than when I was young. I have a theory that women are almost as affected by looks as men are. I know there are exceptions, however.

Anyway, my weekend sucked again too. I've really just begun to consciously apply what I've learned from SSM book and already I'm feeling overwhelmed, hopeless and depressed. I feel closer to her emotionally than I've felt in a long time (and I've told her) but I don't know if I can handle these emotions without some strong positive feedback. I know I should be patient but I can't control the way I feel. Like Sooner and FredD, I am happy for others that are improving their situations; in some way it leaves hope for all of us "achers" but, at the same time, we wonder if our situation is truly hopeless or if it will take so long that it won't matter by the time our spouses realize how important intimacy is for us. Being in my 30's, in good shape, I feel like my libido and sexual abilities are in their prime. I don't want to wait until I need viagra to start enjoying sex.

Ladies, please give us the secret location to your "on button" before we wither away!

AchingMan

It's been about 10 days since I last posted so I thought I'd give a quick update. I tried for about two weeks to take a break from worrying about the relationship and was somewhat successful in finding other things to keep my mind occupied. I installed a pull-down attic ladder in the garage then floored the attic. Sweaty, sawdusty work! Anyway, by this past weekend things were starting to bother me again. I got in a brief spat with my wife but instead of not letting the argument die (as I usually do) I just left the house to go buy plywood without even saying that I was leaving. Kind of ticked her off I think, but when I later told her that I was just trying to get away to stop the argument she seemed okay with it. We even went out and saw a band that night.

Throughout those two weeks that I "took a break" I tried to show her no affection and just get along like friends or roommates. But I felt like I was putting on an act, which I suppose I was, and I really don't like having to do that. So I decided to write her another letter, explaining in more detail what I believe about marriage, intimacy, etc. and the reasons why I want to rekindle the physical intimacy in our marriage. I spent several evenings working on it and ended up with 4 pages - a bit long but I thought it turned out well. It clarified a lot about how I feel. I had to go out of town yesterday so after she had gone to work I printed it out and left it on the counter for her. We talked on the phone last night but she didn't mention it, nor did I. So I really have no idea if it might help, hurt, or have no impact whatsoever. Guess I'll just wait and see. I plan to just leave her alone for a while to think about things.

Not a very exciting update I know, but that's really all that's going on with me.

Sooner

Hi Sooner,

I think the letter you wrote was a good idea; I�ve been thinking about writing one myself lately since it is such a tough subject for my wife to listen to but I know she likes reading...maybe it will open a weak spot in her anti-sex defenses. In your case, the fact that your wife has not mentioned anything about it likely means that it did impact her and that she needs time for digesting it and trying to understand her own feelings about it. Let�s hope. The first step is recognition of a problem, a release of denial. I have yet to see that. What are some of the key points that you make in the letter? I�m not sure how to even begin. I�m also afraid of upsetting the precarious equilibrium of getting along well otherwise. Could I screw things up even worse by expressing my frustrations instead of swallowing them?

Lately, that is, post reading the SSM I�ve begun to feel a creeping sense of hopelessness. At first, I was excited to see that SSM describes so well the situations that so many of us have been dealing with. After finishing the book I think I am a slightly different person. I am still frustrated and hungry but at least now I can catagorize and consciously see the elements of my pain. A negative side effect I think is that being more aware of the pain, a veil has fallen, I can�t stop thinking about it now and searching for an opportunity to improve things. My ignorant anger with the situation is transforming into a deep soul-sinking sadness: the dark side of enlightenment is to be painfully aware. Her touch is even more searing, her loveliness more enticing, her disinterest in physical intimacy an icy daggar through my soul.

Something powerful must happen to shake our wives into recognizing the depth an potency of our pain. For now maybe all we can do is keep bailing out the water from our sinking life rafts faster than our spouses are drilling holes...an exhausting task but perhaps better than jumping ship(hard not to do when so many luxury yachts cruise by!)

AchingMan

Hey AchingMan,

I started my letter by going through some of my personal beliefs about marriage relationships in general � one of these being that a husband and wife should have a bond with each other that they don't have with anyone else. I believe that a big part of this bond comes from physical intimacy, which is in my opinion the primary thing that separates the relationship that you have with your spouse from the relationships that you have with everyone else. Of course physical intimacy must be accompanied by various non-intimate ways of showing that we love and care for each other, but by the same token it can't be neglected if we are to show our spouse that we truly adore them. Then I touched on the benefits of physical intimacy, going into some detail about each. I see these as being pleasure, health benefits, psychological benefits, and most importantly enhancing the bond between two people.

The rest of the letter was more specific to my relationship with my wife. I went into detail about the specific reasons that I desire physical intimacy with her. I addressed things we used to do together that I miss, how certain things (rejection, lack of interest, etc.) make me feel, my fear of eventually having an affair, etc. I also tried to show some understanding with regard to what she might be going through. Then I basically asked her to think about everything that I�d written and decide for herself if I�m worth all the effort. I�m trying to leave her alone to do that. I�ll let you know if it does any good.

After re-reading your post just now, I thought of one more thing. I made a real effort not to say anything mean, sarcastic, etc. This took several iterations of reading what I�d written and trying to imagine how it might come across to her. I was very honest and to the point, but hopefully in a loving and understanding way. Hope this gives you some ideas.

Sooner

Sooner,

I am sorry for barging into your thread but I think I have to kill mine. There is very little support for a W in this type of sitch.

Aching Man said: "The first step is recognition of a problem, a release of denial. I have yet to see that. I'm also afraid of upsetting the precarious equilibrium of getting along well otherwise. Could I screw things up even worse by expressing my frustrations instead of swallowing them?"

I totally agree that the first step is towards recognition of the problem and in my case H said he does not think there is any problem. H has told me to stop writing him letters and to stop hassling him or he'd rather be alone. I have written many letters, sad letters about my pain and longing for him, sexy letters about what we've been missing and some naughty thoughts but mostly sad letters and very rarely angry ones and never accusing ones but they're usually either ignored or I'm told that I'm stressing and pressurising him. I simply don't understand it. If I were a H and my W tells me how much she misses my hugs, kisses, smell etc, I would just say "Come here, you" and proceed to give her a hug and a kiss etc and not "You are stressing me." If I were a H and my wife sends me a sexy email at work, I would get so excited I couldn't wait to get home to W for some fun but none of this happens. I don't get it. I am a loving and sensual person, nothing wrong with me (except for some leftover baby fat) but H has lost interest in me and has no time for me. I have no choice but to meet him at his level and to suppress my own feelings.

Yes Aching Man, you can screw up as I have by expressing your frustrations instead of swallowing them. I wish I hadnt'. After 20 months of nothing, H initiated once and was in such a hurry it hurt, it was quite obvious he only wanted to get it over and done with so that I would stop bugging him. The next day all I told him was the positive which was the truth. I asked him whether he could feel in my touch how much I needed him and how much I had missed him and that I would keep the memory of that moment in my mind for use when he was too busy for me. The 2nd time was when I initated and that went better but then I messed it all up by trying to discuss the sitch with H again and this time H told me "But we did it last week and the week before. I tried. What more do you want?" I told H that he had hurt me the first time because he was in such a hurry and that made him even angrier.So thats it. Almost 24 months now and only twice and H thinks there is nothing wrong. Its made me feel like a sex maniac or some ridiculous thing like that when all I want is a little loving from my own H.

Now we have regressed back to very little affection, no cuddling, no goodnight kisses etc. Mostly my own fault because I've been so hurt by all thats been said by H I just feel so tired to be the one trying all the time. It takes two hands to clap and two feet to tango. A kiss is not a kiss if you have to ask for it and love making is not an expression of love when a partner is just "trying" to appease you.

Sorry again Sooner. I know this is your thread and I got carried away venting. I wish you better luck with your letter than mine.

Hi Luvhubby,

I don�t imagine Sooner objects to us grabbing his thread now and then, we�re all trying to weave a web of support out of the agony of our sexual imbalances.

I�m sorry that your letters appear to have had no effect or worse, a negative effect. I did write my wife a letter the other day but I mailed it to her office so that she would see it there and could read it without me pressuring her by handing it to her like a summons. She hasn�t gotten it yet so I don�t know how it is going to go over. I think it should be better than your husband�s reactions, but I have been surprised before. Pardon me but I think your husband is a fool not to appreciate such a sexy thoughtful wife as you! I would kill to have my wife care about our sex life the way you care about yours. I sincerely hope he recognizes the precious jewel he has before him someday, the sooner the better. Let me apologize to you on his behalf. What the F**** is up with all these sex drive imbalances that plagues our relationships?

I also wanted to encourage you by saying a lot of the things I write here I direct not only to men in pain, but also to women of healthy libido, like yourself. So don�t feel alone here. You sound like a wonderful woman; I can�t tell you how mind-boggling it is for me to hear that your husband is not awake to your sensuality. I simply can not comprehend how he could not be all over you after being exposed to all the sweet and sexy things you�ve been doing. In so many ways your situation sounds like the inverse of mine, that is, your husband is sorta like my wife and I am more like you. She is easily overwhelmed with my affections. I can tell when I�ve tried to touch her one too many times. I get a lot more physical contact than you but I am going insane with desire all the same. The contact (hugging, pecks, flirting, etc) is wonderful and I enjoy it but at the same time it kills me that it doesn�t go beyond that because I get so worked up(up up and away!!!!) simply by a brief brush with her skin that I just about need a cold shower. It is a paradox that I could not say no to a non-sexual hug or kiss even though I know I am going to be in worse shape emotionally after it. Sometimes it would be easier to keep my sanity if we didn�t touch so much. I think this might be a distinction between high lib men and high lib women: women can be a lot more satisfied with simply physical non-sexual closeness, whereas men (I�m really speaking from my perspective here, so y�all correct me if this isn�t true for most) need to go all the way more often.

(This happens to me often) A couple nights ago my wife came in after I had gone to sleep and gave me a nice little hello kiss and was actually semi-straddling me wearing no pajama bottoms. This immediately set me on fire! In my book that is an extremely sexual message. I pretended to be calm and responded warmly but not very sexually by only rubbing her back and touching her hair lightly (non-sexual activities for her). I was so happy and excited thinking �wow, she�s in the mood!� but a few moments later she was asleep on top of me! I couldn�t f***ing believe it. Now I was totally awake and lay there in physical and mental anguish with her body burning into my soul. I couldn�t sleep for 3 hrs. I became so distraught that my head and chest began aching, like a dizzy migraine and heartburn. The next day I was still not feeling well. It is not just an emotional need. This longing is affecting my physical and mental health. The stress and depression associated with sexual suffering is no doubt taking years off my life. I am honestly afraid of being at a greater risk for heart attack or stroke if this continues for another 5 or 10 years.

I wholeheartedly agree with you:

�A kiss is not a kiss if you have to ask for it and love making is not an expression of love when a partner is just "trying" to appease you. �

WE ARE NOT ALONE, WE ARE NOT SEX MANIACS, WE SIMPLY NEED LOVE.

AchingMan

Thanks for the words of encouragement AchingMan. I will not take up more of Sooner's thread with a long reply. Just one thought for you. Be thankful you have so much contact with your W for you would feel 10 times worse if you weren't.
LH

luvhubby and AchingMan,

Just wanted to let you know that I don't mind at all if you barge into my thread - that's what it's there for. I learn so much from what everyone else has to say on here even when the comments aren't specifically directed at me.

Nothing new to report here. I've gotten along with my wife fine through the weekend - like roommates but nothing else. I'm having some success directing my energy elsewhere but I'm starting to run out of things I can do in my attic - built shelves up there on Saturday. My wife still hasn't mentioned the letter that I left for her last Wednesday, but based on her actions (or lack thereof) I'm becoming less optimistic that she's putting much thought into the things that I said. Maybe she decided that I'm not worth all of the effort it would take to make our marriage passionate again.

Hope the rest of you are having more success.

Sooner

Well, I have a lot new to report if y'all are interested. It isn't too pretty. After the MC sessions, months of "progress", etc. the frequency was pretty close to the same old same old. Meaning once a month or twice if I was "lucky". Many other things seemed to be back to normal in our R, meaning not so good, despite my extra efforts to prevent. I've been taking care of the kids much more, enabling her to have several nights of freedom for scrapbooking, bunko, etc. I've cleaned the house without any help from her every week for at least the last 6 or so. I've been patient.

Well, last week my patience ran out and I let her know via email how dissappointed I was becoming about how we were slipping back to old routines and particularly the no sex part. After a number of heated exchanges she said she would try harder and was sorry things had slipped.

Here comes the bad and disturbing part. We had a number of evening commitments so she never really had a chance to "try harder". Then, I can't pinpoint the exact time it happened, I went through a major change. I'm still struggling to understand it. Kind of like what Achingman described, I guess it was a wave of total despair of "knowing" and "understanding" the SSM issues but feeling completely powerless to make things better. Here is the really strange part. All of my sexual desire for my W dissappeared! It is horrible! Its just gone! I look at my W now and have no urge. I don't even want to hold her hand. I don't want her to get close to me in bed.

She actually tried to initiate sex with me and I had no interest at all. She rubbed and touched on me and there was zero physical reaction in me. Not like I was fighting the feeling, I just felt nothing. I kept thinking to myself, "it is just too late". Not too late at night but too late in the R. Like, I'd already given up on wanting to have a sex life with you.

I wonder if she experienced the hurt of rejection that I've felt so many times?! I really hope not. Now I wouldn't be surprised if she won't want to initiate again. But I'm much more worried about my own feelings - or lack of them. In the nine years we've been married I have never not been in the mood. Not once ever. Does this mean I don't love her any more? Is this the beginning of the end?

My head is so F'd up right now. I need to know if this is all my imagination, if this lack of feeling will go away and I'll be back to myself again. Its been 4 days since the night she tried to initiate and my feelings haven't changed. I know its nothing physical because I still feel the same physically when I see other atractive women. Its not like my libido is gone.

Now she's pressing ME for answers for MY lack of desire and I am clueless. I have no idea what to tell her. I have no idea what to tell myself.

FredD

Quote:

Now she's pressing ME for answers for MY lack of desire and I am clueless. I have no idea what to tell her. I have no idea what to tell myself.

tell her exactly what you feel...that you don't know why..that you have some possible ideas why...but that you don't understand it...also express that it's confusing you..and scaring you...then perhaps the two of you can work together on the issue.

LL

Fred

I agree with lovey, tell how you feel, use I statements. When your done do active listening, then shut up and listen.

Poe

Fred,

That's scary. I've worried about that eventually happening to me, but I'm not to that point yet. On the rare occasion that my wife has shown some interest in me, I haven't been able to enjoy it as much as I'd like because I'm worried about how long it will be before she's interested again. It sometimes makes me feel worse because I'm reminded of how much I miss being intimate with her. After a while I'm afraid that everything I've been working towards will begin to seem pointless. And if that should happen, maybe I won't desire her any more. It's hard to say. But like you, I doubt that my libido will ever disappear entirely - and desiring other women while not desiring your wife seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

Also, all this time you've been doing what you truly believe to be the best thing for your marriage. And by opposing you, your wife sends the message that she doesn't care about you or your marriage. As much as you love her, there's got to be some resentment that builds up inside of you, possibly reaching the point where you begin to question how you could love someone that doesn't seem to care about what's best for the two of you as a couple. That might put a damper on your desire to be intimate with her.

I agree with the others who have said to tell her exactly what you're feeling - now that she's had a taste of what you've been going through, maybe she'll be more willing to work with you to make things better. Good luck.

Sooner

I know it is scary for you, Fred. But I see opportunity here. You have a choice as to how your use this experience. You can use your new experience as a way to empathize better with what your wife may have been feeling. Or you can use it to punish your wife with "see what it feels like!" Which approach do you think will be better for your marriage? Does the idea of nurturing empathy for your wife make you feel good or do you feel hostile to the idea? If you're feeling hostile to the idea of nurturing empathy, what do you think about that?

I'm with LL wholeheartedly. Tell your wife you don't get what is happening and it is horrible feeling this way. Then maybe say something like, "I think maybe I understand a little better what it may be like for you. You must feel pretty bad too when you haven't wanted to have sex with me." Then pull out SSM and go to the first chapter near the end and say, "Let's be like those couples that are working together on improving our sex life." (Okay, that last part may be a little stilted and too contrived.) But my point is to encourage you to use and do whatever you can to nurture your own empathy and positive feelings for your spouse, to encourage a joint approach to solving the problem.

Your wife has indicated a willingness to work harder on this. Don't forget to let her know you appreciate that. Do what you can to create an environment which keeps that going. Empathy promotes a sense of intimacy and love and mutual care.

Maybe your wife will be able to use the experience to empathize more with you. I hope she does. You don't have any control over what she chooses to do with it, however, so don't dwell on her choices. Keep your eyes on what choices you're making.

Also, as someone who has experienced a loss of desire, don't stress over it. Treat it as a temporary thing. Remind yourself that sometimes you need to just go ahead and the desire will kick in. Don't dwell on your initial lack of response...it will make it worse. Replace thoughts about your lack of response with memories of times when it was great.

MPT

FredD,

Man, it seems like everybody�s getting slapped around this week. I think the advice you�ve gotten from Sooner, MPT, LostLove is right on. I especially agree with MPT (Muppet?) to use the opportunity. Think of it this way: you�re back on top of the world, you�re libido is not controlling your every move now. I know this is overly simplistic. It must suck big time to lose your interest after trying so hard to reestablish intimacy with your lady. I suspect you hit freak-out mode from wanting it so bad; I know it is exhausting to be continually running on a treadmill after your honey and she just keeps out of range. I agree that it will probably subside if you want it to. Let her work for it a bit.

Definitely be completely open with her and discuss it. That�s the trouble in my situation now is that I can�t discuss anything. You have been giving a rare opportunity, a gift, use it wisely.

I know that the building resentment, sadness and pain do cut into my libido (not to the point you hit). You are probably, like me, oddly afraid to have sex with her in case it is just an anomaly, a singular rare event, a teaser and that it is almost not worth it unless it is the beginning of a trend towards healthier intimacy.

Try not to get overly worked up and worried about it yet. Consider ravishing her with pure animal passion, letting go of all the relationship lovey-dovey for a tasty romp. Michelle�s just do it policy might apply here.

Good luck, dude.

AchingMan

Hello Fred,

I read some of your thread over in Infidelity/Jealousy and in my opinion you should not worry too much about the sudden lack of interest in your part. I think you've had a hard time dealing with not just SSM but also issues about A and OG. It is probably just the face of resentment and maybe perhaps even 'revenge' showing itself. However, do discuss with your W about your confusion or she may be wondering why you're rejecting her now that she is trying. Don't go through this confusion alone. Discuss it with W and make it something you both go through together to strengthen your M. Hope this helps some.
LH

Well, thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. My W doesn't want to discuss anything though. She doesn't want to read anything. She doesn't want to change anything. And, she doesn't want to be or do anything that might be construed as proactive, to our R or anything else for that matter.

The "feeling" of not having any feelings is not as strong as it was last week. Does that make any sense? LH, you are right that there is more than just the SSM going on. But I think it is sinking in that no significant changes to our R will happen. And the despair of knowing I will be sexually frustrated and emotionally unhappy for as long as I remain married to W has me questioning my lot in life.

Here's a few exerpts from recent emails from my W:

-I hear what you are saying. If you are so unhappy with our marriage then why don't you just get out? Why live life in a miserable relationship?

-Do you really think finding another woman to have sex with is the answer? If so then you have my full on blessing to go for it! I don't know what else to do. I guess if you would rather me just spread my legs open everyday then I will.

-You are doing the things I want. You seem to listen to me when I tell you things. You have been fabulous when it comes to the kids.

You can probably see from these exchanges some of the things going on. The last one relates to all the changes I have made to make her more happy. But she isn't going to change anything she does. Hence the one about "if you are so unhappy the why don't you just get out". Basically that's her cop out so she doesn't have to try to improve anything. Her philosophy is that things are the way they are and efforts to change them are somehow bad and unnecessary. Yet she enjoys the fruits of my efforts.

And, obviously the middle one relates to me telling her that I am tempted to have an affair since she doesn't care about my feelings (hurt from lack of intimacy). I really don't even think she would be very upset if I did have an affair. I just don't know.

We were in New Orleans over the weekend and I let my eyes wander all over the place. That is something I have never done in front of my W before. I made no attempt to not be obvious. She never said a word. Even her mother noticed and it freaked her out. She noticed how distant we were too and starting telling me how happy she was that I was part of their family, how I was such a good father, how she was proud that we were working so hard to stay together, etc. There was so much alcohol involved that I really doubt her mother remembers much.

I'm sorry this has turned into a ramble. I don't even know what point I'm trying to make with this post. I'm still confused.

FredD

FredD,

Your wife�s attitude is even more like my wife�s than I had thought. Those email excerpts from her that you put on the last message were so close to the things that my wife has said that it was if I had written your post. Quotes like these ones (including your conclusions) really hit home:

��My W doesn't want to discuss anything though. She doesn't want to read anything. She doesn't want to change anything. And, she doesn't want to be or do anything that might be construed as proactive, to our R or anything else for that matter.

�if you are so unhappy the why don't you just get out�. Basically that's her cop out so she doesn't have to try to improve anything. Her philosophy is that things are the way they are and efforts to change them are somehow bad and unnecessary. Yet she enjoys the fruits of my efforts.�

I told my wife that I was very happy with our relationship except for the intimacy area and the fact that frustrations there were negatively affecting other areas. I said I hated pressuring her and that it was an important area of a relationship for me. Although She seemed to at least look thoughtful at that moment (not angry or dismissive is GREAT). No changes but I�m sure she can�t help but think about what I keep bringing up and struggling to comprehend how the hell I could still be so in love and attracted to her after being together for so many years.

Like you, the despair of realizing that you might have to stay in such a painful situation is often unbearable. If there were any signs that the tide could possibly turn in our favor someday I think that most of us could hang on and weather through the stormy times. It�s the not knowing if they will ever make the effort to come back to us. They�ve already been having an affair with someone else: themselves. By keeping their love to themselves they have essentially been cheating on us. I�m not saying that we have the right to an affair with another woman now but they certainly aren�t making it easy for us to avoid it. Obviously, all of us that are suffering from a low libido spouse have had the temptation of an affair cross our minds.

We keep getting pushed to get out and go for it with another woman; I�m wondering if they would be the ones to leave if we took the liberty of free expression (a sort of offensive, instead of always being defensive), telling them more often how we feel, accepting the consequences of sleeping in the doghouse or whatever. They seem to always be the ones to say �leave if you�re so unhappy!�; that doesn�t mean that we have to leave. I have little interest in leaving, what I want is my lover to be my wife. I don�t think my wife would actually take the step to walk out unless we started fighting all the time or something. Maybe if they were a little more unsatisfied with the relationship they would also be interested in improving things. I don�t really know, I�m grasping at straws now, looking for possibilities in strange places. Some things that WhyNotCheat posted in my Jekyl & Hyde thread made me start thinking more aggressively about crazy ideas, ways to be more confident and let her stew until she�s ready to deal with life.

Letting your eyes wander might be another way to get her attention (or it just might piss her off, but hey, she doesn�t want you eyeing her up, does she?) I personally believe that enjoying the scenery is all right, frolicking through it in the buff is another problem. I say go ahead and let her mom freak out. Maybe she will say something to her daughter to get her to snap out of it. They obviously won�t take any advice from us, maybe if enough other people, especially those they respect or look up to, said something our wives might consider it a bit more heavily.

Here�s an untested crazy idea (my wife hasn�t given me the option of trying this): Why not have an affair with her for just sex? If your wife offers to just �take it� then maybe �just give it to her� might not be such a bad idea. I�d say,�I�d like to have tender lovemaking with you rather than have you just let me screw you but I�m so desperate for sexual contact with you that I�ll accept whatever you�re willing to give me.� There are days when I am so desperate for sex that I would pay her for it. I know it is counter intuitive and definitely not the loving intimacy that we need but it might take some of the pressure off so that you could actually function in society. Like Michelle�s �just do it� philosophy, she might eventually warm up and enjoy it (use plenty of lube in case it takes a while for her to soften her hardened heart and body). It might also add some shock factor because she knows you want more than just sex and is betting that you won�t accept such a crude offer. I say take her up on it, accept and act on it in that moment if possible or set a time. Do it calmly, like you�re setting up a business meeting. She�ll be stunned. She�ll either have to retract the offer (compromising her own words) or follow through. The other possibility is that it will make her really pissed and she�ll storm out (don�t hate me if this happens, I�m just throwing out the idea that the insane might be the sanest thing to do). No matter what I�ll bet it will get her thinking. Anyway, if things are really shitty and desperate, why not try it?

Above all we need to see real effort towards real changes in behavior and attitudes. Even if the stars aligned for one evening and we got some mind-blowing sex (this would be very good) it doesn�t mean that there has been a change of heart or attitude, although it sure couldn�t hurt to begin that way. There needs to be a change of perspective, an opening of understanding, a direction towards working together in improving sex. Any improvement (even sex for sex) is an improvement and I think likely will lead to other changes.

Good luck bro,

AchingMan

Fred D,
We all ramble on and vent when we're here, so don't worry about it. Just remember that for every negative action there is a negative reaction and your actions have not been very positive lately. If you are serious about rebuilding your M than you must work harder, I am afraid.

I don't think your W is so closed up to changes. She did stop the EA and come back to you. Once started, it is not so easy to put a stop to it but she did make an effort so that says a lot of how she must feel about you and your M. Now isn't that being proactive about your R? You had better go all out to prove to her that she made the right decision or you might just drive her right back to OG. I know that will be hard on you but it will be worth it. An A need not wreck a M. It can make it stronger if handled the right way. To have a harmonious, loving and warm home does wonders for one's health and well being. Besides you are way better than OG. OG does not have the history that you have with W. He does not have the special bond that you have with W in your mutual love for your child/children.

Good luck to you. I hope your sitch improves for the better if you start seeing it in a more positive light.
LH

Thanks for being the voice of reason LH. I have been trying not to think about the EA. I can't give her too much credit for stopping the EA since I really don't know if it has stopped. She still is checking her email all the time which makes me suspicious. It could be just work related but who knows. She's a teacher and school is out so what email could be so important? I know she was still emailing OG about a month ago even after she swore the relationship would be strictly professional. The emails I read were not what I would call "strictly professional" but weren't overly incriminating either. She has plenty of opportunity to sneak around with him and I would never know. Like I said, I just try not to think about it.

FredD and AchingMan,

I've been out of town for the last three days without a computer so I'm just getting caught up. I'm amazed at how similar all of our situations are! While I was gone I thought about my marriage situation a lot, as I always seem to do when I travel, and I was about ready to give up. But seeing that you guys are dealing with such similar situations gives me enough hope to keep trying - even if neither of you have found the answer yet.

Here's a brief update - unfortunately more of the same. This past weekend I tried cuddling up to my wife again, after having gotten along really well for a few days, and as usual she nearly fell off the bed trying to keep her distance. As usual, her reaction hurt my feelings, got me upset, and led to the sex argument which carried over to the next day and got pretty bad. Although I love my wife and we get along fine otherwise, I'm starting to feel that she's really not even my friend anymore. The fact that aside from the sex issue we get along well doesn't really say a whole lot - in my entire life I can't think of many people that I couldn't get along with. But my true friends care about me and try to make me feel better when I'm hurting. However my wife only seems to care about herself. And although it would be hard to find a nicer, more caring guy than me, my wife seems to continually think of me as a jerk. I'm finding that she harbors bad feelings for me for weeks, months, maybe years after an argument, and the fact that she can't forgive me for the things I've said in anger may be the main reason that she won't put any effort into our relationship. But while I regret some of the things that I've said, none of them are "unforgiveable". I can't do anything about them now - I've apologized and made every effort to show her that I love her and care about her. However she's never sincerly apologized to me for anything she's done to hurt me, yet I don't hold those things against her. I'm beginning to feel more resentment towards her and it makes me want to stop being around her. But how can I do that when I want to be the best father that I can to my girls?

Here are a couple of things from Fred that hit home with me:

"... all the changes I have made to make her more happy. But she isn't going to change anything she does. Hence the one about "if you are so unhappy the why don't you just get out". Basically that's her cop out so she doesn't have to try to improve anything. Her philosophy is that things are the way they are and efforts to change them are somehow bad and unnecessary. Yet she enjoys the fruits of my efforts."

"We were in New Orleans over the weekend and I let my eyes wander all over the place. That is something I have never done in front of my W before. I made no attempt to not be obvious. She never said a word."

I'm looking for a new approach and I'm wondering if that one might have any merit. I've always tried to keep from staring at other women in front of my wife - not that I'm always successful. But maybe being more obvious about it would be a good change. Maybe it would motivate her to want to be sexy again - to get my attention. On the other hand, maybe she'd just hate me more. Any comments are welcome.

AchingMan, I thought of something today while flying home which I thought was quite profound, only to find that you had posted the same thought. Here it is:

"They�ve already been having an affair with someone else: themselves. By keeping their love to themselves they have essentially been cheating on us."

This crossed my mind while reading an article about how to tell if a woman is cheating on you. I honestly don't think that my wife is having an affair, but she certainly exhibits some of the signs: turning down your invitations claiming she's too busy with whatever, less talkative and more distracted but she won't have a convincing explanation when you ask her why, stops initiating sex - and when you try she'll act uncomfortable and hesitant, and when you call her she'll sound vaguely disappointed that it's you.

I've rambled too long here, but basically I need to find a whole new approach to initiating change in my marriage. I had hoped that clearly communicating my feelings would make my wife care enough to change - but she doesn't. I hoped that trying to be the perfect husband would make her fall in love with me again, but it hasn't. I don't know what to do. I'm tempted to stay away from the house as much as possible - start going out for drinks more often, take up a hobby that keeps me away from home (golf for instance) - but in so doing I wouldn't be able to spend as much time with my girls. I'm just getting tired of this mundane life and I need some sort of change. Let me know if anyone has any good ideas.

Sooner

Quoting sooner1992:
I'm tempted to stay away from the house as much as possible - start going out for drinks more often, take up a hobby that keeps me away from home (golf for instance) - but in so doing I wouldn't be able to spend as much time with my girls. I'm just getting tired of this mundane life and I need some sort of change. Let me know if anyone has any good ideas.

About three years ago I started doing just that. But I always tried to involve my boys when possible. For example, we started camping on weekends. Sometimes the whole family, but often us guys would take off for the whole weekend and leave mom at home alone.

Anyway, your girls might like golf, or tennis, or maybe fishing. Take them along and leave mom at home alone (or with the littlest one) for an afternoon. If she wants to come, make it a family outing. But -- this is key -- plan events that you enjoy without regard to your wife's enjoyment or preference. If she doesn't want to participate, tell her you're giving her a break, make it a positive thing.

I also started some volunteer work on evenings after work. Now I am busy two or three nights a week sometimes. Over time, my wife has become very supportive of my activities. I think she respects the fact I have a life of my own outside of work and marriage.

Now when I cancel an evening activity and instead ask her out to a movie, she is very appreciative. I only started doing this the last couple of weeks (after giving her SSM to read) and it has helped improve our sex life, too. I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before!

It helps, though, to have an activity or event to cancel or skip. Then it becomes a lot more special, even though before I would give her every night of the week.

I hope this helps a little.

Thanks WNC. That is helpful and I appreciate the input. The fact that my girls are only 5 and 2 makes it hard to come up with things to do sometimes. I plan to take my 5 year old fishing soon - I was actually in the backyard with her last night teaching her how to cast her new Barbie fishing pole. But when she realizes that fishing involves a lot of sitting and waiting, I don't think she'll remain too enthused. I've also thought about tennis, but my 5 year old isn't really interested in sports and my more athletic 2 year old is still a little young. Nonetheless, I should probably just get them out on a court (while nobody else is trying to play) and let them try hitting the ball a little. That might be a start anyway. Thanks for giving me some ideas.

Sooner

I think WNC has some great points and in general getting out on your own is going to help you keep your sanity. How about mini putt with the girls? Going out drinking with the guys should help you deal with being alone in this and it might make her eventually want some of that time back with you. I don't know, I almost feel like I can't make any suggestions cuz nothing is working for me either.

I have also been doing more things with my kid and it helps a lot. When we�re the three of us together there is a tension between us, I know we are both jealous or envious of gaining the affections of my wife. My kid tries to wedge himself between us if we hug or jumps in with some sort of disruptive behavior. We generally get along great, more like brothers, but there�s something about my wife�s presence that gets us both in an aggressive mood. I get really angry that all the possible moments to be alone or have contact with my wife get used up with all of us together. He get�s irritated with me because he sees every move I make, every glance at my wife as a sexual advance and taking possible affection away from him, yet we shower him with affection and encouragement.

Don�t get me wrong, I love them both more than anything, I just feel resentful that after everybody else gets fed, there�s nothing more than a �g�night honey� for me. My wife has been working more and later lately. I�m very supportive of her working and doing things with her friends, generally being her own person. But it totally irks me that she�s always too tired for me. I get the scraps, the leftovers, which I can�t help but devour but I�m left hungry for more, for a full meal, if y�all get my meaning.

Anyway, I�m drifting away from my point. When I get away from my wife�s lovely distraction, I start to come down off the hormones and I think more clearly. My son and I go camping, fishing or hunting together and all the competition is gone. I don�t ache for my wife as much and I enjoy just being with him.

�I need to find a whole new approach to initiating change in my marriage. I had hoped that clearly communicating my feelings would make my wife care enough to change - but she doesn't. I hoped that trying to be the perfect husband would make her fall in love with me again, but it hasn't. I don't know what to do. I'm tempted to stay away from the house as much as possible - start going out for drinks more often, take up a hobby that keeps me away from home (golf for instance) - but in so doing I wouldn't be able to spend as much time with my girls. I'm just getting tired of this mundane life and I need some sort of change. Let me know if anyone has any good ideas.� (Sooner)

This quote really struck me. We all seem to be hitting similar points of frustration. We�ve read the SSM and connected with the ideas presented, implemented many of them, have worked hard to give our wives what they seem to want and need, we are kind and sweet, we voice our opinions (at least we used to, until we got that right revoked last week)...and yet we see no hope in ending the painful wound of the sexual imbalance in our relationships. There seems to be no choice but to live with the torture or leave, nothing we do seems to have an effect.

I�m sorry for getting so gloomy here, it�s just my own up and down hitting the floor. When children are involved I guess we have to bury our sadness and frustrations until they are on their own. After that point will come a sort of judgment day when a decision will be made--to continue in a one-sided relationshiip with a selfish spouse or if the spouse is unwilling to work on improving things--leave. Life is too short to be unhappy for so long.

A new approach must be found before it�s too late. The hope I have is that between all our heads we will discover things that will help. At least we have known that we are not alone.

AchingMan

Well, I don't know if the stars aligned or if things I've done have made the difference but my W obliged me with 3 nights in a row of intimacy. The first night I was already asleep and she woke me up and initiated. I was still in my "unfeeling" funk and was really tired so I wasn't too enthusiastic. But wow, she was determined and did all the work so what the heck! I kept thinking to my self "Who is this woman and what did she do with my wife?" I can't help but think the fact I had turned her down a week or so before, been distant from her, and the openly eyeing other women in front of her somehow increased her desire. Not just a desire to make me happy but true desire. Don't ask me to explain how that worked!

That episode pretty much brought me to my old high desire self again. So the next night I initiated and she was into it for the most part. The third night she wasn't really into it, and said so, but it happened anyway. She did say before we got started not to expect it again for "some time". I can't complain at all but of course I'm wondering how long "some time" is. A week? A month? Do I need to go back to being distant and eyeing other women in front of her? Fortunately work has me too busy to over contemplate things like I normally do.

After three nights our R seems great, yet I doubt any permanent change is occuring. We have a 3yr old (who is a complete terror these days) and a 6yr old. It seems that either I am handling the kids and she's out of the picture or vice versa. Seldom is there full family interaction. Lately I've been taking the kids to the beach or other places to let my W have time for herself. She is really into scrapbooking with her friends. This makes it easy for me to keep my distance from her if I want and still get a lot of time in with the kids. Plus, I feel a lot better about our sitch by making it obvious I can handle the kids by myself without any trouble or complaining. (W complains big time if she has to handle the kids for very long without me).

Sooner, maybe you could just take the kids to McDonalds one night a week without your wife. Play it up as giving her some free time while putting a little distance between you? I've done this some lately. Trying this "distance" thing sure seems like playing with fire though. I guess I haven't really been playing but letting my actions follow my feelings.

FredD

Quoting AchingMan:

When children are involved I guess we have to bury our sadness and frustrations until they are on their own. After that point will come a sort of judgment day when a decision will be made--to continue in a one-sided relationshiip with a selfish spouse or if the spouse is unwilling to work on improving things--leave. Life is too short to be unhappy for so long.

AchingMan

I catch myself thinking a lot like your quote. I need to stick it out until my kids are grown but fantasize about going my own way afterwards. I've even been pushing a little for my wife to have a good career and retirement plan so she can support herself without me if and when "judgement day" happens. I'm not sure if my little fantasy is healthy or not.

FredD

Thanks AchingMan and FredD. You both had a lot of good comments. Fred, congratulations on your recent success. It's reassuring to see someone with the same problems making some genuine progress. I hope it continues.

In my never-ending search for answers, I came across something on the internet today that I thought you both might want to read. It appears to be a work in progress with new topics being added occasionally, and I haven't finished reading what's currently available due to the fact that I really need to get back to work, but so far it's made me see things a lot differently. It's given me a better understanding than anything I've read so far of what my wife might be going through. Here's the link:

Why Your Wife Won't Have Sex With You

Have a look and see what you think.

Sooner

Just wanted to document a little bit of success, although considering the circumstances it might not be worth getting overly excited about. Friday night the whole family (wife, daughters, and myself) went out to celebrate a friend's birthday. There was a group of around 12 counting kids - mostly people that my wife works with and their spouses. We met for dinner then went bowling. While at the bowling alley, my wife had a few too many drinks which is unusual for her. We were there until about midnight (kept the girls out really late, but they behaved well and were really cute) and not long before leaving my wife walked over to me holding our two year old, gave me kind of a group hug, then kissed me. And for the first time in years, a passionate kiss! Soon after, we loaded up the girls and headed home, and as I drove my wife held on to me and laid her head on my shoulder. Granted, she was drunk, but it reminded me of how things used to be. When we got to the house I had to help her to the bed (the alcohol really seemed to hit her as we drove home) then I took the girls upstairs and got them to sleep. When I came back downstairs she was passed out on the floor not far from the bed after apparently making a run to the bathroom. I covered her with a blanket, pulled up a pillow, and fell asleep on the floor next to her so I could help her into bed when she woke up.

I honestly don't know if she'll even remember kissing me, but after so long it was really nice, even if she was drunk. And it felt good driving her home and helping her to the bed because, for a short time, she needed me. Even much earlier in the night, I knew that once we got home she'd either fall right to sleep or pass out, so I didn't get my hopes up about sex. I was actually quite happy just to have her kiss me.

I realize that I may be crazy, but I can't help but think that this was a step in the right direction. Just trying to be optimistic I guess.

Sooner

I'm needing some advice here. Not much has changed with my situation - my wife and I continue to get along just fine except for the fact that nothing is improving in the romance department. Yesterday I asked her again to read SSM saying that it may or may not help, but that it seems like little to ask for her just to read a book. Her response was something like "fine, I'll read it!". I was a little put off by her negativity and tried to have a non-argumentative discussion, but as always she got mad - saying that I was attacking her - and eventually we were into a full-fledged argument. I'm sick of this cycle and absolutely must find some different approach or I'm going to go crazy!

Here are my questions. First, I seldom initiate anything blatantly romantic anymore, but I do occasionally try to cuddle up (barely) in bed or put a hand on her arm, shoulder, etc. when were sitting close, just trying to get the point across that I want to be close to her. Should I completely stop all forms of touching? Second, some days she'll give me a goodbye kiss (just an unromantic smooch like you'd give your grandmother) when she leaves for work. Should I start avoiding/refusing this as if I'm not interested? Third, through all of this we've continued to say "I love you" at the end of every phone call. Under normal circumstances I would prefer to keep doing this - I like telling her that I love her. But I don't feel like she loves me, and I'd much rather see it in her actions than hear her say it. Should I stop saying "I love you" on the phone"?

My thinking here is to do something that might make her notice daily that we lack closeness, possibly to the point that she'd miss it. Is there any merit to trying these things, or will it just screw up the only hint of romance that remains in my marriage? In short, will taking this approach make things worse? I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Sooner

I must say I am no expert, but I wish my H had told me point blank how unloved he felt that I did not initiate ML or when I would say ok, reluctantly. I never realized how rejected he felt, I thought well, we are ML 2-3x/week so everything is fine, even if he had to beg at times. WOW, was I wrong.

Anyway, my suggestion is to read the 5 love languages book. Have a heart to heart with her so you know she fully understands your point of view and you understand her point of view. If you fulfill her love language I bet she will be more receptive to yours. nik

Sooner:

I must be married to your wife's sister - zero interest in any physical contact, especially sex. The occasional peck on the forehead is as good as it gets. Hostility abounds whenever the subject of sex is even hinted at and severely punished for mentioning the topic. I sympathize with you - the situation is really devestating to your whole outlook and perspective on life.

Anyway, have tried everything over the past 5 years, everything from being the most attentive person possible, long exotic vacations, weekends away etc. etc. I have also tried the distant, low attention and numerous other routes without success. In fact the low attention route results in an even frostier environment. I have tried going for councelling but she won't go as I have "the problem".
I guess like many things, "drastic times require drastic measures". I feel like I am in drastic times and the only scenario that is likely to work if I want to change the situation is to threaten divorse and be prepared to carry this out. Other options, which I reject, would include finding another willing partner or taking medical measures to reduce the sex drive. I would be interested in any other comments and have just posted a thread on this topic.

I hope there are some better answers out there.

LR

Thanks nik � Unfortunately my wife is a lot different than you - I think she hates me for trying to be open with her about how I feel. There is no such thing as a heart-to-heart with her - I've tried so many times to approach her in a gentle, loving way, and no matter what I do or say she sees it as an attack. She starts by being indifferent (every answer is "I don't know"), then she becomes sarcastic (things like "yeah, I guess it's all my fault"), then she finally becomes outright mean. It hurts to have her respond like that when I just want to be closer to her, and I eventually turn into a complete jerk out of frustration. I absolutely hate it when I get to that point.

Thank you for your comments also lowrob. I had already written the rest of this post when I read your reply, and your comments don�t give me much hope that the following will do any good. But I�ll put it out there anyway in hopes of getting more opinions.

In follow up to my previous questions I thought of one more thing to ask. In the spirit of being completely open with my wife, I could come right out and tell her that I'm fed up with the whole situation and that I don�t want to go on pretending to be lovers if she won�t make an effort to resolve our problems. I love her with all of my heart and I want to be able to tell her and show her that I do, but until she cares enough about me to show me that she loves me, I don�t want to continue saying it. Also, I�m sick of being the only one to initiate anything even remotely romantic and either being rejected or feeling like she wishes I would just leave her alone. So until she�s ready to make our relationship better, I will make no effort to touch her, hold hands with her, kiss her, spend time together alone, or have sex. All of that is meaningless if she�s not in love with me. This leaves the ball in her court and if she decides that she wants me I�ll gladly start doing those things again. If she decides that she doesn�t, nothing will be much different anyway � except that I�ll stop holding onto the hope that she�ll suddenly fall in love with me again.

What do you think? Is this too harsh? Should I tell her what I�m doing or just let her figure it out? Will it help or hurt? Any comments would be appreciated.

Sooner

Sooner,

Thats exactly what I would do. Show her, don't tell her.

Cut out the affection, don't settle for pecks on the forehead or cheek. If thats the way she's gonna be then so be it, two can play that game. Doesn't mean you act cold, just don't initiate affection or touching, that would be a 180 that may jump start some inkling in her mind that you're not settling for staus quo.

Sooner,

I can't find your first post on the boards so I'm sort of unclear about your complete situation. I read your current posts and see so much similarity in our situations, it scares me.

My H did what you are thinking many times. All it did was hurt my feelings. I would think, "great now he doesn't even want me anymore". If you have never said these things to your w, maybe she has no idea what your mind is thinking. If you have never said how the ssm is killing you inside I think she needs to know.

As the LD spouse, I never liked it when my H put the ball in my court. I would think, if he can just give up, why can't I? If you are not open with your w already, you should start there.

It breaks my heart to read all these posts from the HD H. I just keep thinking, "if I only knew". Tell her what you have so gracefully told all of us. Even if things don't go as planned, everything you have is on the table. No one can say, you should have told her.

Best of luck, be honest and brave!

Lis

Lis,

If I can figure out how to do this, here is the link to my first thread. I'll warn you, it's pretty long. Maybe just reading my initial post will help.

Sex-starved and looking for advice

I've actually approached my wife numerous times trying to explain to her how our sex-starved marriage is killing me inside. I honestly thought that was the best way to handle it - that's what I'd want her to do if the situation were reversed. But she actually thinks that by bringing up the subject I'm trying to run HER off. She seems to think that if neither of us ever talk about our problems they'll just go away. I don't believe that, and I'm doing everything I can to save my marriage before I get to the point of no longer caring. She thinks I'm a complete jerk for doing so, and a complete fool for participating in this messageboard. If she only understood that the little bit of hope that I get from this messageboard may have kept me from having an affair, or at the very least having a one-night stand, maybe she would appeciate the efforts I'm making just a little.

Although I've told her how I feel a thousand times, I don't think she's ever really tried to understand. She seems to be too busy thinking of how to fight with me about it. That's why I'm trying to convince her to read SSM - maybe that will help her to finally understand what I'm going through. I've even tried writing her letters - long, detailed letters that she couldn't possibly view as an attack on her. But that doesn't work either - she's just mad that I'm "forcing" her to read something - or "cramming it down her throat" as she puts it. She tells me that my methods of trying to solve our problems are all wrong, yet she can't tell me any better way to go about it. I'm at a total loss for something that might work.

I do appreciate your input relative to my earlier questions. I'm hoping for more input so that I can make an educated decision as to whether those things might do some good or just make the situation worse. Just out of curiosity, if you had absolutely no desire to be intimate with your husband, why did it bother you to think that he didn't want you anymore? I'd think that would be a relief. My wife seems outright mad that I want her - like I'm some sort of a sicko! And I'm not just talking sex - I'm talking about even innocent cuddling. I'm somewhat afraid that if I stop every hint of touching her, telling her that I love her, etc. she'll finally have exactly the relationship that she wants and I'll just become more miserable. Your input has been great so far - anything you can tell me to help me understand her viewpoint would be greatly appreciated.

Sooner

In follow up to my e-mail from yesterday, for the past two days I haven't said "I love you" to my wife at the end of our phone calls (after doing so for years). Also, as she left for work both yesterday and today I made sure that I was occupied (shaving, etc.) so that I couldn't give her a goodbye kiss without having to flat out refuse it. I absolutely hate acting as if I'm not interested in her! I feel like a jerk and I'm scared of hurting her. If I really thought it might do some good I could stick it out - but what if it just makes things worse? Yesterday she seemed a little upset when I got off the phone with only a "bye". Today she seemed to be just fine with it - so she's either trying to act like she doesn't care (and she has a better "poker face" than me) or else it really doesn't bother her. Can some of you who are familiar with my situation give me some advice?

Sooner

Hey Sooner,

I think you need to try and lovingly detach with sincerity as best you can.

Its ok to not end the call with an ILU, as long as your voice when talking to her is upbeat and sincere. You don't have to purposely avoid a goodbye kiss, you can give her a peck on the cheek if you need to.

You don't ever want to do something that is so non-natural for you that it is counterproductive. At the same time, a subtle message must be sent to her that you aren't too accepting of her behaviour. Thats where pulling back from the ILUs and physical touching to an extent, comes into play. It takes practice Sooner, give it some time, I think you'll know how to handle it after awhile. If her wheel starts to squeak, thats a good thing, you can validate her thinking if she verbally notices whats happening. You can adjust at that time.

Let it play out for a bit, its only been a couple of days.

Dear Sooner,

Hope I can answer this question so that you can understand it. You asked:

Quoting sooner1992:
Just out of curiosity, if you had absolutely no desire to be intimate with your husband, why did it bother you to think that he didn't want you anymore?
Sooner

It bothered me for the same reason your wife's denial bother you, it hurt! The devil on my shoulder would say, "Oh thank God, it's about time he got the message, I'm not interested." But, there's the angel on my other shoulder telling me, "see what you did? Now he doesn't even want you anymore." My H told me he wasn't interested in me because he just didn't know how to act with me anymore since it had been so long since we'd been intimate. It hurt me, but I went on and didn't change. I'm sorry to say that all this approach did was cause hurt feelings.

I have to admit that what my H would totally stop pursuing me (no grabbing, i love you's, no sex talk, no good nights etc). I would start to try pursuing him. Natural instict to keep the herd together I guess. As soon as he "loved" me back again, I went back to my old self.

Just wish your wife would read the book. Feel free to pick my brain for answers.

Lis

Sorry, accidentally posted with my H's login. The above message is from me, Lis3.

Thanks Lis,

Your input helps a lot. I've tried to get my wife to open up to me about what's going on in her mind, but what I usually get is "I don't know" or a complete refusal to even answer my questions. I understand from reading your posts and those of other LD spouses that she probably really doesn't know the answers to some of the things I've asked her - but I feel like in some cases she does know, or at the very least could help me to understand how various things that I do affect her. So short of her actually opening up to me, I believe that former LD spouses like you or MPT or jen381, who have walked in my wife's shoes, are most capable of helping me to see the situation from her side.

Yesterday I printed out your "I am your wife" post and asked her to read it. When she saw it laying on the counter I heard her "huff". But she did read it (eventually) and when I asked her this morning if she could identify she said yes. It seems to me that if I were in her shoes and wanted my desire to come back again, reading your post would give me some hope. But I don't really know if she wants her desire to come back again - you probably know that better than I do. I asked her 3 months ago to read SSM and she said she would, but never touched it. I asked her again a couple of days ago and she said she would, but I don't know if she will this time either. Can you give me any tips as to how I can get her to read it? I've tried the "let's work on this problem together" approach, but she still feels like I'm attacking her and she hates me for it. Any advice you can give me concerning ways to make progress will be greatly appreciated. My previous posts provide a pretty detailed description of my situation, although there's a lot to wade through (or though which to wade if you prefer). Reminds me of my favorite Winston Churchill quote concerning ending a sentence in a preposition: "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put". Couldn't resist throwing that in.

Sooner

Sooner,

I would be careful with leaving R type articles around and suggesting books for her to read. That is pressure with a big P. It also tells her that you are not respecting what she is going through emotionally and you are trying to fix her feelings. That is a death knell my friend. You heard the huff, and the book has not been read. That tells you NOT TO GO THAT ROUTE. In all probability she says to herself "sure, now he leaves articles and books around, he's just trying to get me back, where was all this before?.." I don't think thats the response you're looking for Sooner...

Respecting her space and not trying to persuade her to change her mind will go a heck of alot further than any book will. Show her you respect what she feels and leave her be, its on her timeframe. Read the book, apply the principles yourself, but don't even remotely hint that she should do the same.

Just trying to be honest with you bud.

Wiley,

Thanks for your advice - it makes perfect sense and I'll try to follow it in the future. Considering that I've already screwed up and bugged my wife to read the book, please give me your opinion of what I should do now. I could either say nothing and leave it at that, or I could approach my wife nicely and apologize saying that it was wrong of me to pressure her about reading the book, that I won't be upset if she would prefer not to read it, and that I won't mention it again - or something similar. Granted I'll actually be let down if she won't read it because I think it could really help, but maybe it would take the pressure off of her if she feels that I'm leaving it up to her. What's your opinion? Others besides Wiley feel free to chime in as well.

Sooner

Sooner,

No need to apologize, I'm not big on those, they tend to remind your W of what it is that she didn't like or whatever. Just don't go that route anymore and let it go, done issue, water under the bridge. Again, applying the principles to yourself and implementing the changes into the R without telling her is better than her reading it herself. Let her read you, thats what she eventually needs to do anyway.

Maybe down the road after you've drawn her back toward the "new Sooner", you can visit the idea again, but not now, its too early and she is fairly entrenched in her current mindset.

Hi Sooner,
I've got a time crunch again, but I wanted to touch base with you.

You've done your job with communicating with your W. She knows where you stand. Now you give her space, just like you're trying to do. Here's a spin on that which may make it easier for you to feel sincere...you're giving her less physical contact because that's what she has indicated she wants. You've heard her and you're respecting her position. Don't read anything else into her position except that for now she needs space. (You're going to want to know for how long though, right?

I don't know the answer to that!

Try not to think about it.)

This approach is not a manipulation tactic to make her want sex. It is not an attempt to hurt her or drive home what less physical contact means. It is simply giving her what she has asked for. You love her. You've heard her. Your love for her is the reason you're giving her what she wants even though you don't much like it. This is what you think to yourself, not what you say to her. Don't say anything to her. Just do it (or rather don't do it.)

No need to apologize. You haven't done anything wrong. You tried the first obvious approach, talk about a problem, and it didn't solve the problem immediately. The positive thing is that your W isn't clueless about how you feel. That is a success. (Take a deep breath, let it out and with it let go of the need to provide more information.

)

At some point...after much space has been given...you can always show understanding for the pressure she must have felt. The reason to do that is not to apologize, but to open up the situation for mutual give and take and understanding. Acknowledging how another person may have felt is a friendly gesture which often makes it easier for him/her to reciprocate. But don't do it right now! I think she's a bit annoyed with you and those feelings need to dissipate. (No, I do not know how long it will take!

)

I had some more stuff I wanted to share with you, but will have to wait for later. It doesn't have anything to do with understanding your wife. It has more to do with the fact that you and I have both been the less-satisfied member of a marriage, although for different reasons. There are some things you can do which will lead to a greater sense of satisfaction and intimacy without any change on the part of your spouse. But you have to want that sense of satisfaction and intimacy more than you want specific behavior change from your spouse.

Best, MPT

P.S. Boy, I can type alot when I've got a time crunch.

MPT,

You have such great advice for Sooner MPT, I wish you had some for me. I have no solutions whatsoever except to try and be patient. This I have been doing but I have this nagging fear that when I do this H will think that all is well and then not do anything about the sitch.

My Hs desire is totally gone. I'm not crying out for more, just crying out for some, any... We have ML only twice in two years and that is only recently after the months of my telling H about how unhappy I am about the lack of intimacy in my M so he did it to pacify me, one counsellor calls this Mercy Sex.

H is now talking about a second child so I know he will initiate sometime in the future for that purpose. That is not what I want at all. I want my H to ML to me because he wants to and afterwards, I want him to hold me, stroke my hair and tell me he loves me etc. H never does that. When we were courting, H would IMMEDIATELY get up to do some studies right after ML and when we were trying for a baby, H would get up immediately afterwards to chat online with his best buddy. Now I fear that if we were to try for another kid, he would get up immediately afterwards to play a PC game or do some work. How to I tell him all this without getting him upset or feeling pressured, I simply have no idea and so I keep quiet and try to maintain peace and harmony in my home.

I love my H dearly and cannot find any fault in him so I surely do not want to create an unhappy atmosphere at home but is keeping quiet the answer? There is a mismatch of desire in my M but I do not know what to do about it. I guess it has always been this way even when we were courting but then H did cheat on me with a coworker then (during courting days) so I thought maybe its me he doesn't want. However thats over now. H ended the A, I have forgiven him, we have moved forward, but he still has no desire for me. What can I do? I'm so lost.

Sorry Sooner, I am hijacking your thread again.

LH

MPT,

You really do give great advice, and you explain it so well. Thanks! I look forward to seeing whatever else you had intended to say.

Luvhubby, feel free to hijack my thread any time. We all learn from each other on here you know.

Sooner

Quoting sooner1992:
Can you give me any tips as to how I can get her to read it? I've tried the "let's work on this problem together" approach, but she still feels like I'm attacking her and she hates me for it. Any advice you can give me concerning ways to make progress will be greatly appreciated
Sooner

Sooner-

I agree whole heartedly with MPT. You don't want to smother the small spark that seems to be there. I'm glad your wife read my post. I hope she felt some kind of connection with the words I posted.

I agree that you need to give her room to breath. However, I know that when my H did that I often had a sigh of relief and thought "well thank God he's not bugging me for sex, it's about dam time!"

Do you read the book in front of your wife? I'm thinking that maybe if she saw you reading in bed, she might lean over to take a peek. What if you were taking notes too? That wouldv'e made me curious.

I will get my H's opinion on this one. It's a delicate thing because it seems like her reading the posts was such a big step forward and you don't want to do something to take two steps back.

You have to remember it's a hard thing to admit you have a problem with intimacy. I think once your w realizes that you love her and not sex and that you are attracted to her and not sex she may see things differently. Those two thoughts are basically what changed my desire. I came to realize what my H really wanted. Took me eight years, but at least I got it!

Lis

Lis - thanks for your advice. I really apprecate you taking the time to think about my situation and I look forward to your future input.

Here's my latest plan. I�m trying to �lovingly detach� from my wife in hopes of eventually making some headway in the intimacy department. However, some of the things that I�ve listed below seem like they might do more harm than good � for instance by causing her to feel �less close� to me. But maybe that�s what�s needed. Maybe my relationship is to the point where it has to get worse before its going to get better. All I know is that the things I�ve previously tried haven�t worked so I need to try something else.

Listed below are some specific things that I�m either trying or considering.

1. Eliminate discussion of relationship, sex, my feelings, etc. At this point she already knows how I feel about all of that. I think there�s no question about this one.

2. Don�t initiate any physical contact. Specifically:

a) Don�t try to cuddle in bed or elsewhere. Stay to my side of the bed and make sure not to even touch her.

b) Don�t initiate holding hands. I assume that if she initiates this I should go ahead and do it.

c) Avoid the occasional goodbye kiss as much as possible. If she actually initiates this, I assume that I should go ahead and kiss her rather than turning away or otherwise refusing? FYI, throughout our sex-starved period she has continued to give me a goodbye kiss most days when leaving for work. It�s been on the lips, but not really romantic � just a peck. Besides this she never kisses me � for example upon coming home from work, from a trip out of town, at bedtime, etc.

d) Don�t put a hand on her arm, shoulder, knee, etc. when sitting or laying within reach of her (like on the couch watching TV).

e) Don�t initiate any hugs.

3. Don�t say �I love you� when ending phone calls. We�ve always done this and I think it bothers her a bit that I�ve stopped doing so over the past few days. I�m curious about whether this is the right thing to do. I can accept that I�m just trying to do what she wants by having less physical contact, but what would I say if she asks why I suddenly stopped saying ILY. Any suggestions? Also, I assume that if she ends a call by saying ILY I should say it back rather than sound like a jerk � or should I just say �Okay, bye�.

4. Don�t create opportunities for the two of us to be alone. I don�t want to put her in a pressure situation where she feels like she needs to do anything romantic. We seldom go to bed together due to the fact that one of us always goes upstairs with the girls to read stories, but if the opportunity arises I plan to stay up until after she�s asleep. Also, I had been trying to plan occasional weekend trips just for the two of us. I�ve stopped doing that for the time being. I also occasionally ask if she wants to go see a movie, go out to see a band, etc. I�ve stopped that as well.

5. Don�t call her unless I have a good reason � like to coordinate who is picking up the girls after work. I had been trying to call fairly frequently just to say hello, and I�ve always called on the way home from work, etc. just to see if she needed anything, but I�ve stopped doing that.

6. Continue to take care of my portion of the responsibilities at home. Help with laundry, dinner, washing dishes, cleaning house, taking care of the girls, etc. But don�t go out of my way to do things specifically for her � for instance washing her car.

7. Do things with the girls more often. A couple of nights ago I took my 5-year old fishing for the first time at a little pond just down the street in our subdivision. It was fun (she caught her first fish) and doing things like this with my girls definitely takes my mind off of relationship issues.

I�d sure appreciate some input on the things that I�ve listed here, and any suggestions relative to other things that I could do to �lovingly detach�.

Sooner

Hi Sooner

I know you are desparate to try and motivate the desire for change in your wife and nothing seems to be working. Being in the same miserable situation as you, I probably shouldn't be giving any advice, but I will tell you my strategy for what it is worth.

I will write two letters to her, one a warm and heartfelt message explaining how much I love, admire and adore her. In that letter also will explain that I have felt that our communication in the intimacy department has become counterproductive at this time (not to blame her or me but it just has become extremely negative) and that we need to develop a more health mechanism to openly communicate in a non hostile environment. As a suggestion, I will explain that part of our communication should initally be in writing so that we can properly express our feelings. I would like to suggest some ground rules that we must try and adhere to at all costs when communicating in writing and verbally, including always considerin having a positive element to what we are saying, always be respectful, don't interupt, take time to respond, just know that we love each other and the discussions on this topic are to enhance an otherwise loving situation. I would invite other suggestions on how the process of communication can be improved and again reiterate how much we love each other.

The second written communication would explain how I love everything about her and that part of this is how much I love to hold her, touch her, kiss her and, yes, make love to her. For me to feel truly connected, I need all of these elements and if I am missing any one of them, it breaks me apart. Yes I am vulnerable and I need the full meal deal, not just the verbal/intellectual love, not just the non-sexual intimacy part and not just the making love part. I need all of these elements to feel truly connected and we have been lacking in one of these elements. I would go onto explain that, as stupid and shallow as it might appear to her and to the outside world, the lack of this element in our relationship has resulted in a very heavy toll on me personally and has negatively affected the relationship, which I am sure she also feels. I do not believe it is positive to detail the shortcomings of each other, however, the two of us need to develop a plan to change our situation over the long term. The plan should be slow and gradual and we need to know that we are working on this together so that we can both be madly in love with each other for the rest of our lives. The issue isn't about me or my need for intimacy, the issue is about us. And as we both feel connected to each other, we will also have a stronger and better feeling about ourselves. Our feelings about us as a couple, and me and her as individuals, are inseparable and we must realize that if one of us is unhappy for whatever reason, it affects us as a couple and as individuals. I would ask her to respond in writing to what I had to say and then invite us to discuss how we can enhance both the process of communicationa and our relationship.

I am not sure when I will do this, but only when the climate is right.

With respect to your plan, I think you are headed for disaster. I think you have partially tried this plan (probably many times before), with always a bad result. Not only will it piss off your wife, but you will grow totally impatient with the situation, even though it is your plan.

Anyway, take these comments from a guy who has not found any answers to his situation.

LR.

Sooner,

I don't see anything wrong with your plan. You can monitor as you go along. Just make sure you stay upbeat around her, help her with things if she asks you to, still be a good friend and caring husband. I think you're on the right track based on the history you've given us.

Hi sooner.

First off, I think you should arrange for a consultation with one of Michele's people before you do anything.

If you decide to press the issue, and I don't disagree with your reasons, then be prepared for the fallout.

Reduce the situation to a few simple facts.

Are you willing to leave things the way they are?

Is it 'ok' for her to ignore your needs?

Are you meeting hers? Are you SURE?

If you decide that it your current situation isn't 'ok' (obviously, it isn't) and decide to push the issue, then you had better be prepared for repercussions. There is a chance that it will turn things around. There is a chance it will destroy the relationship.

What you really have to decide, is just how important is the sex/love portion of your relationship. If it will ultimately destroy the relationship anyway, then I wouldn't waste a minute in pushing the envelope. If you might eventually learn to accept "status quo", then you will probably want to back off.

We all like and want black and white decisions. Even when we make one that appears to be very clear and well defined, the results are often a shade of gray. You have a decision to make - Push and accept, or wait and accept. Spending your life going in circles, anger and despair to elation and hope, is no way to live. I did it for over 10 years. I will never be that patient for such a simple matter of choice, again.

You can't listen hard to my advice, though. My advice is from my perspective, not yours. As for making a decision, you will eventually have no choice in that matter. Your only real choice, is when you will decide to choose.

-NOPkins-

Well, Sooner,
You've got lots of opinions here

! Are you thoroughly confused yet? Do you want any more?

Sympathetically, MPT

Yes MPT, I'm confused. And yes, I do want more opinions - yours definitely being one of them.

First, thanks to lowrob, wiley, and NOPkins for their comments - I'm pondering all of them at the moment. I realize they're somewhat different, but I actually agree with all of them to some extent. In reply to some of the points that NOPkins raised, I can't imagine going through the rest of my life without my wife. I'm tired of being miserable over our lack of intimacy, but by the same token I don't want to destroy our marriage. If I had to choose between a lifelong relationship with her without any hope of achieving the intimacy that I desire or no relationship with her at all, I'd choose to stay with her for the rest of my life. But the primary reason that I'm here is that I don't want to have to choose between the two. I'm just trying to find the best way to achieve the relationship that I want with my wife without losing her in the process.

With regard to "my latest plan" presented in my earlier thread, I think there's no doubt that I need to stop discussing the relationship with her, writing letters, asking her to read books, etc. I also think it might help to completely stop initiating anything physical. However, I'm not sure about avoiding or refusing goodbye kisses or about not saying "I love you" at the end of a call. Those things bother me a bit. Trying not to be alone with her and not calling unless I absolutely have to are also gray areas, although I don't think they're as potentially harmful as the other two. In short, I need all the advice I can get. My "plan" is by no means set in stone. I just want to do whatever has the best chance of helping.

Sooner

Sooner,

If you look back at your own post you will find that you sounded much more positive in the beggining. Now you sound in despair. Perhaps you are trying too hard and your frustration is showing through to your W.

About your plan, just be careful that your W may not interpret it as 'loving' detachment. It may just confirm her belief (if she feels that way) that you are being nice to her for one reason only. She may also interpret you as trying to 'punish' her ie "if you don't satisfy my needs, I shall withold this and that from you". Also, you mentioned that some of the plan does not feel natural to you. My feeling is to avoid those that does not come naturally to you.

I have a link for you about how some low libido W's feel about their sitch. No Sex Drive At All All of them love their Hs and haven't the faintest clue on how to deal with the problem. I think communication is the key. Perhaps your W feels that way too and does not know how to communicate her feelings to you just has you are having difficulty communicating yours to her so do work on the communication process. Maybe your W is also struggling within herself about not being able to 'please' you but does not know how to tell you.

I hope things improve for you. As for me, I have decided to accept things for what they are and wait patiently. This has made H much happier but I think I have a long wait ahead of me.

Thanks luvhubby. I hadn't realized that my despair was showing in my posts, but you're absolutely right - I had a lot of hope initially. But it seems to fade a little bit every day. I'm a very "capable" person - I've always been able to do about anything I've ever set my mind to. So it's hard on me that I'm basically powerless to fix the one issue in my life that I'd most like to fix. I'm also a very honest person so I prefer to handle things in an upfront manner - I don't like resorting to reverse psychology to make my wife want me again.

I love my wife so much and I really want her to be happy. I don't want to do anything to make her miserable or to make her think that I don't love her or need her. I just want to be happy too.

Oh Sooner,
I can't sleep so I thought I could either do some laundry...or not

.

I definitely like number 1 of your plan. I also like #2 if your motivation is to provide space and not punishment. Respond in a subtle positive way to any physical contact she initiates, like with a smile. You want to reinforce her initiating contact without scaring her off.

The other thing this does is give her a little control back so that she can respond to her physical needs as they arise. I know you feel she's the one in control because she's been rejecting you, but from my experience it doesn't feel that way at all from the other perspective. First, your own body isn't doing what you want it to. Second, if your spouse is always initiating physical contact, and doing it fairly frequently, you don't get an opportunity to experience your own physical needs. You're always reacting to his. This could take some time for her to experience if this is the case for her. I know you've tried this before, but I don't think you've given it much time.

#7 you should do regardless of your sex life. (Although...seeing my H cultivate his r with his daughters warms my heart toward him.) The other stuff, do what feels right to you and look at your motivations and purposes. Luvhubby is right though, your w may misinterpret your intentions. You have no control over that, but if what you do doesn't have the effect you want...stop doing it.

One goal I think you should consider before the ultimate goal of increasing sexual activity is doing whatever you can to repair the battlefield that's been created over the sex problem. You guys have been having a tug-o-war game and the ground has gotten very messy. That's going to need some work, IMHO. Time and no arguments over sex might help.

Lots of laughter is usually a good idea too. My H actually used to make me laugh over the sex issue. The fact that he kept his sense of humor, didn't take himself too seriously (typical stance for him, keeps him mentally healthy) and was willing to let me laugh too was another thing that kept me looking for solutions. I don't think you're in a position to make jokes about the sex issue right now, but find other things to laugh about together. Make it a top priority to cultivate more positive feelings between the two of you. This is where you may want to think about not doing some of the things on your list. If it has the effect of producing hostility between you two, I'd recommend stopping. Just my opinion though. I tend to prefer the carrot to the stick.

One thing I noticed from one of your older posts I wanted to comment on. If your w is falling asleep in your daughter's bed and on the couch, see if you can wake her up and get her to come back to her bed. Not for sex, but because the quality of sleep is better. I speak from experience. I'd fall asleep in those same places and would keep waking up a little all night long, think "I need to get to bed," but then inertia made it hard to act on that thought. When I stopped that bad habit, I felt less fatiqued and less irritable.

I still haven't posted about the suggestions for what you can do for yourself without any change on the part of your spouse, but I'm getting sleepy.

Best, MPT

Hi luvhubby,
I've read through some of your posts. I don't know that I have anything new that I could offer you. Your h does seem to have a lot on his plate right now, but you also indicate that this has been a problem for longer than just recently.

But something in your posts leads me to ask you how are you are doing otherwise? Are you feeling okay?

Best, MPT

Quoting MPT:
But something in your posts leads me to ask you how are you are doing otherwise? Are you feeling okay?

Thanks for responding MPT. If not for this issue, I am very happy and have a good R with H and that is probably why I am so afraid to rock the boat. We laugh a lot together. He is also more affectionate now as compared to a few months ago. However, no passion for me. None whatsoever. H does not think that the lack of intimacy in our M is a problem and thinks I am crazy to complain about the 10% of unhappiness and risk giving up our 90% of happiness.

I know H is under a great strain as we are currently living under his one income but he works very hard to make sure we are doing ok. H is a wonderful father and we have lots of family time together. H does not understand why I am always talking about my individual needs, why I have to separate my needs from our family's needs since we spend a lot of happy times together as a family unit.

I think that H is dissapointed when I tell him that when there is no intimacy my emotional needs are not being met. Everytime I mention this issue it makes both of us unhappy and H feels very stressed and pressured by it. I don't know what else to do but to not press the issue anymore as I love H very much and stressing him up further is the last thing I want to do. H sometimes tells me to be patient and that things will get better but they never do. Something new always comes up and intimacy goes to the back burner again. H is always too tired and too busy. I think you have to make time for such things or you will never have the time, ever.

I don't know what else to do except to not mention this anymore and to try to do more for H so he would be less tired. And I shall be patient and wait but I do forsee a long, long wait.

LH

Yeah, finally getting around to responding to this post. H has done all those things in the past. Sorry to say none of them really worked.

I agree with MPT that 1 and 2 are good choices although they made me feel sort of depressed when I realized H had given up. Even with him no longer initiating contact, we eventually fell into the same "we're not having sex fight". I think the other plans might just tick her off. I really disagree with the no more alone time. Counselor I saw a couple months ago, stressed the importance of time together, just the two of you. H and I still haven't followed that advice, but it does make sense. Your wife may see it as "Okay, he only wants to spend time with me if I'm going to have sex. I am right, he doesn't love me, he loves sex." Warped mind we LD spouses have isn't it?

Remember, it's an automatic response on our part. We can't help thinking that way once we have done it day in and day out for so long.

By pulling away completely from your W you may send the wrong message. Maybe if you talk to her and let her know that you are going to stop intiating and why, she might not take it the wrong way. She may be relieved or angry or maybe sad. Whatever her reaction, you can base your plan of "attack" on that. At least you'll know where she stands.

I also agree with whomever said not to do what makes you uncomfortable. If you are not to the point of no return yet, do what your heart tells you.

Hope I made some sense, I've got a toddler hanging on the back of my chair babbling about God knows what....Good luck again.

Lis

Quote:

However, I very much like sex for the fun aspect of it as well. I've told my wife that I think sex is by far the most fun we can have as human beings. I guess I've stayed away from stressing that because if she thought that all of my whining was just because I was missing out on some fun, I think she'd see me as shallow and selfish. Am I going about this whole thing the wrong way. Should I simply say "I know that you love me - I don't need sex to know that, I just want to have some fun with you"? Obviously I'd phrase that a bit better, but you probably get my point.

I pulled this from over on lowrob's thread. It gets a bit confusing sometimes to know where to respond to someone and not hijack another person's thread, etc.

Has sex gotten too serious? Has the fun aspect of it drifted away under the need for it to be fraught with meaning so that you don't supposedly have the appearance of being "shallow" (your word! not mine!

)? Would it be different to deliberately try to be more lighthearted about it? Tease yourself a little bit about it's importance to you?

Of course, right now, I really think you need to stop all conversation about sex, but maybe this is something you can work on with yourself. Work on applying that sense of humor you have to this aspect of your life. It may seem hard at first, but practice makes perfect!

I sometimes feel like I sing the praises of my h too much, but he did do stuff that worked without resorting to an A or the threat of a D. I know that is the approach you're hoping to find. He joked about his heart and his brain being a bit controlled by his penis

. He freely admitted/admits that the need for sex is probably more about him than me. He understands that a good backrub pleasures me more physically than an orgasm, but he isn't embarrassed to admit that he needs me to stroke his ego sexually. And because he is willing to acknowledge that and not take it all so seriously, it lightens the situation up and makes it less stressful all around. It is even downright fun for me to do this for him.

[In fact, there has been something he has been wanting me to say to you folks, which I haven't been able to figure out how to fit it in in anyway that is appropriate. This might be the opportunity

. He really wants me to sing his praises about his, um, size. So let's not and say we did, okay? There, now I can say I did it.

]

I hope I haven't offended anyone. I know you're hurting and thinking about the humor of it may seem callous. I just want to throw out strategies to consider. This is a strategy that worked.

Best, MPT

Lis and MPT,

Thank you both so much for your comments and advice. After being in turmoil all week about how I'm going to handle the intimacy situation with my wife, I think I've finally made some decisions. I'll post them in detail when I have more time, but in short I've decided that even if things don't get any better than they are right now (intimacy-wise), I want to spend the rest of my life with my wife. I love her and need her. I want to be able to tell her that I love her and call her just to say hello, even if doing so doesn't help my "cause". I want to be able to spend time with her alone - go to movies, go on trips, etc. - even if there's no chance we'll have sex. Granted, being able to do those things while at the same time having a fulfilling sexual relationship would have me smiling from ear to ear. But I'm not prepared to give up an otherwise wonderful marriage over a lack of sex.

I have a question for both of you based on something that Lis said. Let say I stop initiating anything physical and explain to my wife why I'm doing so. If the opportunity to take a trip somewhere together (long weekend, etc.) should come up, would it be okay to say "let's go on this trip with the understanding that we will not do anything romantic - no cuddling, kissing, sex, etc. - let's just have fun with each other with no romantic expectations"? I think that would help me a lot, because if I went on a trip knowing that nothing would happen, I wouldn't get upset halfway through when it didn't. Let me know what you think. I'll post more later.

Sooner

Hi Sooner

Your recent circle of emotions and feelings has been virtually identicle to mine. A certain amount of frustration, anger, bitterness, sense of unfairness etc - all mixed together. In the end, it seems that all you can really do is try to accept the situation, enjoy the many postives and high points from the relationship and hope that eventually a full relationship will develop and grow. One day, I am sure that my wife will display a sign of willingness to change and at that time, I think I will be capable of nurturing, feeding and cultivating this dormant part of our relationship.

In my case, I feel I am missing about of 25% of what I want from the relationship, I always thought I would have a 100% "score" in the relationship department (naive I guess), and perhaps one day we will be back to that. Like you, I am not willing to give up the 75% because of the missing "25% part".

I am convinced that a positive attitude and enthusiastic acceptance of our wives will be a much better approach than the alternative - the punishment approach. The "punishment" approach (I believe the ignoring the wife routine is one in a long list that I would describe as the punishment approach) would likely be harder on me than on her. From the selfish side, I don't want to punish myself, and I think you came to a similar conclusion. I also don't really want to punish my wife, I would prefer to love her.

The hard part will be to embrace this approach over the long haul (as if it hasn't been long enough) since deep down a full relationship is important and I can't help feel like I am denying myself and the laws of human nature constantly. This feeling is wearing on me and I wish I could rid myself of this nagging feeling..... bit alas!

Anyway, good luck Sooner, I think I am making the right choice and I hope you are too. This forum has been incredibly useful, informative and supportive and the documentation of the unfolding of your circumstances has given me some strange sense of comfort.

Regards LR
ps also thanks to Lis,MPT,luvhubby etc.,

HEY,

Well, I was the typical low desire W, so I hope my point of view will help. My H wanted to ML probably 3x/week on average. I would say "no, later, ok, or go ahead." I always thought that as long as he eventually "got it" everything was ok. I actually liked being chased as I felt "wow, he must really love me", even though I am not a skinny minny (I have ranged from a size 9-14 over our 8 yrs. of marriage and post kids) and have fair to poor body image which has added to my lack of desire.

Anyway, I never understood that he didn't feel loved because of my "rejection." All I heard was that he wanted more sex.

Well, when the &^%$ hit the fan and we talked more about his feelings of rejection, etc.. Then I got it. My point is, I wish H would have told me his FEELINGS re: ML, I just never understood the deep emotional connection that he needed and was lacking from me. Now my LL is also physical touch.

My H and I are S and I pray our marriage will be reconciled. I truly believe if sex wasn't one of our HUGE issues before, we would not be where we are today. My suggestion is (when the time is right) to write S a letter explaining your FEELINGS so that she may fully understand your POV.

Good luck! nik

Quoting luvhubby:

H is now talking about a second child so I know he will initiate sometime in the future for that purpose. That is not what I want at all. I want my H to ML to me because he wants to and afterwards, I want him to hold me, stroke my hair and tell me he loves me etc. H never does that. When we were courting, H would IMMEDIATELY get up to do some studies right after ML and when we were trying for a baby, H would get up immediately afterwards to chat online with his best buddy. Now I fear that if we were to try for another kid, he would get up immediately afterwards to play a PC game or do some work. How to I tell him all this without getting him upset or feeling pressured, I simply have no idea and so I keep quiet and try to maintain peace and harmony in my home.

Sure its not the way you want it, but is it better than nothing? The underhanded thing to do would be to keep taking birth control so you can get more encounters! I remember how excited I was when we decided to have our first child. Of course I was excited about having a baby, but I was also excited about getting to make the baby. But, alas, it only took 3 encounters. I had the same excitement when we decided to have another baby 4 years later. I figured there was no way it would be only 3 encounters again. Well, I was right. It only took 1 time!

FredD

Glad to see you are still trying to make your M better Sooner. I haven't been around in a while because I'm tired of trying. I don't have much hope that my sitch will improve. I don't feel close to my W anymore. We have made love a few times in the last month. She initiates and then I get in the mood. It is so different than before. Sure its great that she actually initiates, but its not the same anymore since I feel so distant from her. Its just too little too late. I spend time each day strategizing how we could seperate without totally screwing up my life (which is impossible). Then I spend time each night in prayer asking God to give me the patience and determination to stay married.

FredD

Quote:

I have a question for both of you based on something that Lis said. Let say I stop initiating anything physical and explain to my wife why I'm doing so. If the opportunity to take a trip somewhere together (long weekend, etc.) should come up, would it be okay to say "let's go on this trip with the understanding that we will not do anything romantic - no cuddling, kissing, sex, etc. - let's just have fun with each other with no romantic expectations"? I think that would help me a lot, because if I went on a trip knowing that nothing would happen, I wouldn't get upset halfway through when it didn't. Let me know what you think.

If you're asking how would your wife respond, I don't know. I can tell you how I think I would've responded, but also think Lis would probably respond differently from me

.The only way you'll know how such a statement will affect your own situation is to try it out. If you feel saying it will help you deal better with the situation, then that's a goal in and of itself.

Congrats on coming to a meta-decision about where you're going to let this problem take you. I hope it makes it easier for you to decide what actions or non-actions you will take. (Ick, that sounds so clinical!) You know what I mean, I hope. I had to come to a similar decision about some things I thought I needed from my H.

Best, MPT

lowrob, nikatnight, FredD, and MPT,

Thank you all for your comments and support. It's been a couple of days since I last posted and I'm sticking with my latest decision to make the best of my marriage regardless of the lack of intimacy. I'm much more comfortable being able to tell my wife that I love her and not trying to punish her in hopes of her changing. I even did a fantastic job washing her car today without being asked.

I stated before that I was going to post more about the decisions I've made, but I've actually forgotten what else I wanted to say. I plan to continue posting regularly, but for the most part my questions won't be about how to get my wife to change as much as they'll be about how to keep myself from blowing up when the lack of intimacy really gets me down. I've realized that my wife does love me, that there's little I can do to change her desires, and that my best hope for eventually having the marriage I want is to stop pressuring her and give her the time she needs to sort things out. Unfortunately, I've realized that this will likely be more than a couple of weeks.

I'm off to bed, and for once I'm actually not thinking about sex (well, not much anyway). Between taking my daughter fishing three times over the weekend, hitting golf balls at the driving range (I'm thinking about starting to play), mowing, weedeating, edging, and car washing, I'm beat!

I sure appreciate everyone's advice and always welcome more.

Sooner

Hi Sooner and everybody,

I�ve been reading everyone�s posts but haven�t been able to bring myself to contribute. There have been a lot of good ideas flying around though. Like FredD, I�ve been at a total loss about any ideas to improve my relationship with wife so I�ve just given up on trying. That doesn�t seem to be helping much either. Who knows?

In general, I think your plan is pretty sound. Accepting the fact that you might not ever have sex again or very little is a very hard pill to swallow. Deciding that you are willing to let your needs be ignored because you love your wife so much is commendable. I�m not sure that I have the same fortitude to be on hold for an undetermined amount of time. Your plan is likely to be successful in making your wife happy--she will get the low or no sex marriage she has been wanting. She�ll probably be relieved and think �finally! He�s quit needing sex!�. You may even get lucky every now and then, which, unfortunately will only remind you of how wonderful sex is and make you ache for it until the next time---some unknown distance in the future.

I�m sorry I may be sounding less than totally positive here. I�m projecting my own frustration and sexual stalemate upon your situation. I do think that in the short term (say 2-8 months) your plan will help you to survive. At least you are thinking that you won�t be having sex. This may sound strange for some but having hope (say even for a weekend at the beach or something) is the worst thing for your own sanity. Don�t let a coy smile or flirtation from her fool you into thinking �there�s hope tonight!�. Don�t get excited about getting some until you�re actually getting it. Do everything in your power to resist initiating. If she asks why your sex drive has dropped off (it would be great if she actually got to the point of curiosity), tell her calmly that it is stronger than ever but that you�ve just been trying to be patient because you love her. If you are lucky enough to get a break like that you may have a foothold for real two-way improvement.

This may help her to realize that it is her that you desire, not just sex or she might relax enough to remember what it is like to love and desire you. I truly hope this is the case. You need to have the strength to hold out without looking at her lustfully or saying anything that might indicate your attraction to her and yet bounce along with a smile and a helping hand. What you are setting out to do is painfully difficult, I know because this has essentially been my approach lately. The real problem is no longer how to get passion back into the marriage but rather how to survive a passionless marriage and keep your sanity.

However, I think that simply swallowing your frustration in order to keep a friendly equilibrium is, in the long term(8 months-? years) a dangerously precarious approach and in the end will eat away at your self-worth and personal well-being. There will another day in the future when you will need to bring this issue up with her for consideration. The longer you can patiently (outwardly) wait until that day the more impact the volcano's eruption will have. I'm sorry but I simply can't accept this as a one sided issue. Bottom line for me is it is wrong to withhold sexual love from your spouse. It leaves an emptiness in the relationship that can not be effectively or indefinitely filled with anything else. Some will no doubt disagree with me...

Maybe Michelle�s next book could be �The Masturbators Kama Sutra: How to Survive a Passionless Marriage Without Leaving�

AchingMan

Hi Aching Man

I agree with the general points and ideas in your last post. I would point out that I do not believe that our spouses are "withholding sex" in the sense that it appears that most of our spouses have no desire for sex and are likely totally turned off or disgusted by the thought of having to engage in any form of sexual contact.

Essentially, they have no sexual feelings to give and therefore can not be withholding intimate contact because there is none to give. I for one am not interested in intimate contact with my wife if she is feeling like vomitting every time we have sex. On the one hand,she can't help her feelings and on the other hand, I can't help having my needs.

Difficult isn't it? Particularly when you are struggling to maintain a marriage where tradition doesn't permit intimate contact outside the marriage, yet there is no intimate contact inside the marriage.

I'm afraid for many of us there is no satisfactory answer - the reality would seem to be that both spouses will live in some degree of frustration/misery for as long as they stay within the traditonal boundaries of marriage.

Speaking from the perspective of an individual that has had virtually no sexual contact with the wife for five years or so, it is extremely difficult to be truly happy in a non sexual relationship. I agree that Michele should write a book on helping spouses like us develop appropriate coping mechanisms to deal with the reality of our situation - that is our sex life at age 40 (give or take a few years) is probably over forever.

Michele's book on the "Sex Starved Marriage" is great if the partner has a willingness or the ability to try and deal with the situation, but I know that my wife has no ability to change. In my case, my wife has indicated that her sex drive is over forever and will never return. I don't know if your wife has been so blunt, but it would seem that you could be in a similar situation. Putting Michele's book, the "Sex Starved Marriage" in front of her (no matter how subtly arranged) would be like saying "I didn't understand what you meant when you said that bit about no sex ever for any reason - so lets start that sex fight again". The next six months of life would again be a cold barron existence of silence and hostility. I can't go there yet again. I really hope that Michele can help us in this regard as there appear to be many of us in the same boat.

Anyway, sorry to be so bleak, but I just can't see the situation any other way if your wife has entirely lost her sex drive and does not believe that she will ever be able to regain it.
LR.

Quote:

Very interesting thought. I think of my situation with a LD spouse, being the HD partner. She has read SSM, even making marks in the book to draw attention to certain ideas. But a leopard doesn't change it's spots, we're back to the "old ways" of infrequent sex, little closeness or intimacy. Think how hard it is for a HD spouse, seeing , working beside, talking etc. with people who you can sense enjoy a good sex life. Having fantasies about coworkers, or strangers, then feeling the guilt for doing so. The shame and guilt that can accompany the self pleasuring that will
help you get over the HD urges, yet also re-inforce the disappointment that improvement is likely never to be just around the corner. If it is possible to have an emotionally fulfilling sexless relationship with your spouse for life, would it be also possible to have a non-emotional sexual relationship with someone outside of your marriage? Why does this not seem like an acceptable solution to a SSM? I know that society, religion, and morals would dictate otherwise, but where is their solution to a SSM? Prayer? Abstinence? Cold Showers? Your thought?

Beau

Hi Beau

In my case my wife does not have a "solution" that I know of - except for me to leave her alone and not to provide any opportunity for her to feel any further guilt. I don't think that she can get past her feelings of inadequacy concerning her lack of sex drive and until this occurs, she is in no position to consider my needs.
I was hoping that we could come to an arrangement where, out of her love and respect for me, she would occasionally (and only on her own volition) provide some physical sexual touch (almost anything would do at anytime). I know if I suggest this course of action as a solution that she would be offended, so I was hoping that one day we could have a nonemotional discussion and this would surface as a viable alternative - but given the lack of success so far this solution is only a distant fantasy.

With respect to having a non emotional sexual relationship with someone else (preferably a woman who has a nonsexual husband) - I don't think this is viable on a long-term basis. How are you going to keep the emotion out of this relationship in the long-run when the other woman is meeting some of your very important needs - how will you then see your wife - how could you want to stay married to your wife? I know that in some cultures, mistresses are quiet prevelent and quietly accepted in the wealthier circles but I know I can barely afford my wife!

Anyway, just my ramblings

lr.

Thank you for the nice reply. I too, think it would be very difficult to establish a "arrangement" for purely sexual reasons, without the likelihood of becoming emotionally involved as well. It is the theory of the possibility of having such an arrangement as a possible solution for a SSM. The reference you made to alternative sexual contacts is one that I find frustrating as well. If sex for a LD spouse is unthinkable, and they truely want their partners to have some form of sexual relief, why not consider this?
Some would look at it as just another "chore" to be included in the daily functioning of the household. I, for one, could live with this. I certainly would rather have an intimate, fun, mutually satisfying encounter with my partner for life. I can't help but wonder why this would not be considered as an alternative. Of course, another thought would include the possibility that the LD spouse simply does not care about the others "problem" and has no intention to do anything to improve it. This is the type of relationship that may lead to an affair, fights about sex, separations etc. How about comment from some of you LD spouses out there? Am I way off base in my thinking here??

AchingMan,

Like you, I've continued reading everyone's posts but haven't felt much like contributing. I'm actually doing pretty well right now as far as not letting the lack of intimacy bother me as much, but I know exactly where you're coming from with your post. For the first time in quite a while I feel like I can go longer than two weeks without saying or doing something to start the sex argument with my wife, although that has yet to be proven. I'm convinced that forcing myself to back off and accept the situation for the time being is my best hope for eventually seeing some improvement. But I'm fairly certain that I can't keep it up indefinitely.

I've finally managed to accept that my wife loves me and that her lack of desire for me is nothing she can control. However I do believe that she can make efforts to regain her desire - MPT and Lis3 are perfect examples of that. But as long as I continue to put even the slightest amount of pressure on her to change, I'm convinced that she's not going to make any effort whatsoever. I'm prepared to stick with my plan of no pressure and not initiating any physical contact for a period of months. But if there's no improvement after several months I honestly don't know what I'll do. All I can say is that I hope I'm not faced with that decision.

Sooner

How are you doing so far Sooner? I'm afraid I just blew it. Just had the famous argument with H. I want to kick myself. I feel so very tired of H telling me how I am stressing and pressurising him whenever I bring up this subject. What on earth could be so stressful about something so natural and wonderful as to connect intimately with the one you love. If you ask me, I would say its destressing and relaxing. I want so much for my marriage to be filled with excitement and passion but alas it can only be that way if two will work on it. I definitely need help. The SSM book isn't helping. Not when H won't read it. I need a book on "How to survive a marriage without passion" or "How to remain content when your spouse is your roomate" or something like that. I feel so frustrated. Sorry to be so negative. Its just one of those days. Hope you're doing better.
LH

Quote:

What on earth could be so stressful about something so natural and wonderful as to connect intimately with the one you love. If you ask me, I would say its destressing and relaxing.

Sounds like you and your h are different in this area. He needs to be relaxed and de-stressed beforehand. You see it as a way to relax. Neither is right or wrong, just different. How does your h relax? Ask him if you're not sure. Ask him even if you think you absolutely, positively know! If he doesn't have a way to relax, it might help you (and him!) out in the long run to help him find a way to de-stress.

From what you've written in other posts, it seems he has plenty of stress. It needs to be a priority for his health to find a way to cope with it.

Best wishes, MPT

Hey luvhubby,

Sorry to hear about you blowing things by having the sex argument with your husband - I know exactly how you feel. I agree with you wholeheartedly that a passionate, exciting sex life is very stress-relieving. My wife seems to be constantly stressed and I honestly believe that if she would start setting aside some "playtime" for the two of us she would feel much better. I know that I would.

It's funny that you mentioned the types of books that you'd like to read because I actually spent a few minutes just last night searching the internet for similar books - without any success unfortunately. My wife won't read the SSM either and I've decided that I'm never going to mention it again. I'd be surprised if she ever reads it, which is depressing because I still think that it could help a lot.

I'm actually doing pretty well so far at sticking to my plan and not getting overly depressed. At least I made it through another romanceless weekend without saying or doing something to make my wife mad. But I haven't been at this for very long so I know that it will get harder and harder to maintain my positive mental attitude. I'll be out of town working for a week starting July 6th so if I can just make it until then without screwing up I basically get a week off. Of course, being the horniest guy in Oklahoma, spending a week away from home has its own challenges.

Hope you recover quickly from the sex argument. Good luck!

Sooner

Quote:

My wife seems to be constantly stressed and I honestly believe that if she would start setting aside some "playtime" for the two of us she would feel much better. I know that I would.

Eeekkk! DON'T make the assumption that the way you work is the way your spouse works. Key point from SSM. It's about understanding the differences and coming up with some way to handle the differences. Accepting that your wife is different from you, that sex doesn't do for her what it may do for you, is part of the process too. It's not just about your wife changing or you doing something to produce desire in her. It's about you accepting her the way she is as much as she needs to accept the way you are. Then work on something which is mutually agreeable to you. It's not about trying to change something that may be part of her fundamental make-up. People often need very different things to feel relaxed.

Who knows, maybe sex would relieve stress for your wife, but it isn't a stress reliever for everyone. It isn't for me. In fact, if what is causing me stress is in full force(Ha! Like that is a singular thing

), taking the time for sex has the possibility of even increasing the stress. This doesn't mean that we don't go ahead, but neither h nor I expect me to be less stressed afterward. If he suggested sex as a stress-reliever when I'm feeling stressed-out, it would probably backfire on him. He would be revealing how little he understood about me.

Best wishes as always, MPT

Quoting MPT:
In fact, if what is causing me stress is in full force(Ha! Like that is a singular thing ), taking the time for sex has the possibility of even increasing the stress.

You got that one right MPT. It definitely is that way for H. H's way of relaxing is for me to give him reflexology. Then he falls asleep!

Sooner,
My argument ended pretty quickly, as usual, with me saying sorry I brought up the subject and H saying he doesn't understand why I can't just be happy with what we have and complain about what we don't. He can't understand why this is of such importance as to mar our happiness in other areas.

What I need to hear from him is that we have a problem, if he thinks its temporary, then I would wait patiently and after a while if things don't change, then we could work on it together. All I hear is stop complaining because we don't have a problem, be happy with 90% and don't let 10% ruin the 90%. Thats like asking me to accept that things will always be this way. Sounds like no changes are forthcoming. I don't know how to deal with that. I can deal with it if he tells me he is so stressed up he just doesn't feel like it for now but I can't deal with it when I think that things will stay this way permanently Thats the hard part because I think that as a couple we should try to fix whats bothering the other. I don't know how to fix this problem alone and I don't know how things are ever going to get better if I'm not allowed to even talk about it. Ok enough ranting, time to go. Have a nice day you all.
LH

Quoting MPT:
Eeekkk!

Sorry about that MPT - didn't mean to evoke a scream. I do understand that my wife and I are different, and I certainly wouldn't suggest sex as a stress-reliever when the very thought of sex only seems to cause her anxiety. But in my opinion, that anxiety (which I have also) wouldn't be there if we hadn't let our sexual relationship diminish to the point that we're no longer comfortable even touching each other. Unfortunately it did and there's nothing we can do to change that now.

I can't imagine ever thinking of sex as a chore - at least not with someone that I'm attracted to and in love with. And regardless of how she may change over the next 50 years, I can't imagine not being attracted to and in love with my wife. In my opinion sex is the funnest, most exhilarating thing that we can experience as human beings. So I guess it's hard for me to understand putting it in a category with doing laundry and mowing the lawn. I honestly don't want my wife to have sex with me out of obligation - that's no fun for either of us (although I suppose I could think of worse ways to pass the time). I want her to have sex with me becuase there's nothing in the world that she'd rather do. Am I crazy to dream of that? I'm starting to think so.

Try not to wake the kids if this post makes you scream again.

Sooner

Quoting luvhubby:
Thats the hard part because I think that as a couple we should try to fix whats bothering the other. I don't know how to fix this problem alone and I don't know how things are ever going to get better if I'm not allowed to even talk about it.

I know exactly how you feel luvhubby. If my wife were to let me know anything I could do to make her happier, I know that I would give it my best shot. All she'd have to do is ask. Yet I've asked, begged, and cried, and now I have to resort to shutting up and holding all of my feelings inside. It doesn't seem fair does it.

Feel free to vent your frustrations on here any time. I understand what you're going through and I'll gladly rant with you.

Sooner

Oh, Sooner,
I think I'm getting a feel for why your wife has a hard time sharing her thoughts with you.

MPT

Hi everybody,

I had a breakthrough the other day, that is, after a long pleasant conversation over a romantic (whoops! I said the �R� word) dinner for our 15th anniversary my wife let out a bit of information that has given me a foothold in making change. It is a difficult foothold to stand on, however. She basically said that she feels we are out of sync in terms of our spiritual connection and that the differences in our core values is too great for her to feel that connection, which she needs to feel attracted to me. She says that often when we have a deep philosophical or academic discussion (non-confrontational) that she feels more attraction for me, not quite enough to feel sexual but more than on a typical day. She also offered (on her own!) that she understands that I am a physical person and is sorry that I am not getting nearly what I need in terms of intimacy. The fact that we even talked about it was a huge step although during the conversation I felt sick to my stomach because I knew the it could have led to a split up if I wasn�t extremely careful with my words.

Her personality and belief system has changed considerably since we got married. We both used to be very conservative and religious, I a bit more than her. We both have become a lot less conservative; she is almost as far opposite where we were when we got together as she could be (oddly the one area she is still quite conservative is in terms of sexuality...it just kills me!). Her belief system has done a 180 degree reversal but I haven�t kept up with the speed of her �evolution�. I�d say I�m lagging about 5-8 yrs behind. At the current natural rate of progress, I�ll never catch up and she will fly off into space without me.

So folks, here�s the deal:
Can I change my core values out of love for my wife to allow a more harmonious relationship? There really is no guarantee that she will be more interested in building a closer relationship but I feel it is a pretty solid investment. Unfortunately, to begin with, in her �enlightened� view of the world, marriage is an antiquated tradition that has little positive reasons for existence. That�s a big problem because I value our relationship/marriage above all other possible things in life and a exuberant sex life along with it. She says she could be just fine if the human race gave up sex tomorrow and she had to go without for the rest of her life. My opinion is quite the opposite. I start losing my sanity after a month, a week or two I get antsy.

It still seems bizarre that you could admire, respect, appreciate, care for someone that you�ve committed your life to and yet not feel attraction to. Basically, if we were to meet each other at the stages we are at now there is no way we would get together. On one hand, this at least gives me a reason to contemplate why she feels little connection. On the other hand what she is essentially compelling me to change is possibly such a central part of who I am that it may not be possible to accelerate the necessary change to catch up with her. I did tell myself that if there was ANYTHING I could actively do to improve our intimate relationship I would absolutely put effort into it. But is it even possible to change one�s core values by shear will and force of decision? Certainly I can try to have a more open mind about the issues she cares about; that�s easy but to actually say, ok I don�t believe that anymore, I believe this...Very tall order, y�all. Also tied in with this is the level of conservativeness in my family is about 50 years behind and how do I really want my kid to be raised?

Could I fake it for the sake of us and still live with myself? I really need some help from y�all on this one.

AchingMan

Start with this...

Quote:

Certainly I can try to have a more open mind about the issues she cares about

so you can have more of these...

Quote:

She says that often when we have a deep philosophical or academic discussion (non-confrontational)

leading to more of this...

Quote:

she feels more attraction for me

.

Don't worry about the big changes you think you'll have to make. Start small with just having the conversations.

Oh yeah. Ignore this...

Quote:

Unfortunately, to begin with, in her �enlightened� view of the world, marriage is an antiquated tradition that has little positive reasons for existence. That�s a big problem because I value our relationship/marriage above all other possible things in life and a exuberant sex life along with it. She says she could be just fine if the human race gave up sex tomorrow and she had to go without for the rest of her life.

for now.

MPT

Quoting MPT:
I think I'm getting a feel for why your wife has a hard time sharing her thoughts with you.

MPT,

I'm so sorry that what I said came across the way it did. Seeing your reply made me feel terrible. I actually wasn't trying to take a stab at you personally - I was trying to better explain why it's hard for me to see things from the "other side". But upon reading my post again I can understand your reaction. I think I let my frustration show through a bit too much.

MPT, you've been more help to me than anyone and I hope that I haven't ruined my chances of getting future input from you.

Sooner

Aaaack!! That's not what I meant. Poor choice of emoticon on my part. I didn't take what you posted personally. I meant I was frustrated. This can be a good form of communication for some things and not so good for others.

I forgot you had written that your wife feels attacked. Not too surprising that you thought that is what I meant. I'm sorry.

Let me explain the source of my frustration. Maybe it will have some relevance to discussions with your w. When I try to give you some idea of what things may look like from another perspective, I'm not trying to convince you to take on that pov. I'm just trying to describe it to you. (Remember, you asked for it

) Often your response is to provide more info on your pov. It seems like a reasonable response...in a debate. It doesn't work if you're really trying to understand what makes someone else tick AND/OR trying to communicate that you want to understand them.

Understanding another person rarely involves explaining yourself to them. It involves listening to them, and I don't mean half-listening while you're generating arguments to what they have said. Reflecting what you have heard. Accepting it as their view, regardless of your own.

Now, I'm not trying to get you to understand me. That's irrelevant. Some of what I post isn't even my pov. It's your wife you said you wanted to understand. Do you or did you respond to her explanations of her pov, on any topic with emotional content, not just sex, with explanations of your own pov? Do your discussions turn into arguments or debates when this happens? Or does your wife just shut down and not want to discuss it anymore? Both are defensive reactions to not feeling understood.

You are both trying to feel understood by the other. However, when no one acknowledges the others pov as a valid pov, even if not their own, then no one feels understood. Who should go first with expressing understanding? Doesn't matter, as long as someone does. It might stop that tug-o-war game. You walk toward your wife instead of pulling back. Once she's recovered from having fallen on her backside because the tension is gone from the rope, she might be better able to reciprocate. Yes, I know, she could do the same for you. But she isn't right now and it is a royal pain in the a$$. I'd be saying the same thing to her if she were here...walk toward your h. But she's not here and you are.

The above is rather on the theory side of things rather than on specific suggestions. Would you like some specific things you might say or do which could communicate understanding?

Sleepily, MPT

P.S. For the record...I do understand that sex/ml is very, very important to you. You need it to feel fully connected to your W. Your m doesn't feel complete to you. It sometimes becomes overwhelmingly distressing. Yours is a valid position...for the simple reason that it is yours and it is a part of who you are. You do not need to explain it to me anymore. I understand.

MPT,

Okay, now I understand. And you're right - I do often go into more explanation of my own point of view when in reality I should be listening to what my wife says and trying to understand her better. I'm a bit argumentative by nature (in case you hadn't figured that out by now) and that personality trait is probably my worst enemy when it comes to communicating with my wife. I'll pay closer attention to this in the future and try to be more of a listener and less of a talker when my wife tries to open up to me.

Thanks for your understanding and for taking the time to get this point through my head. And yes, I'd greatly appreciate specific suggestions as to how I can better communicate understanding.

Sooner