Pursuit and Distance - DivorceBusting.com

Time for a new thread -- old thread here:

MC Says to Call It Quits

Quote:

"The Solo Partner" says that the distancer will believe they can get more out of the relationship than they are willing to put into it. When the pursuer stops pursuing, they feel this loss and want it back, so they'll do just enough to try to restore it.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

This was the quote that struck me from the chapter as well. It basically means that at whatever level you decide on for your pursuing, their reciprocation input will always be less. And it's not just a lack of understanding, like Men/Mars and Women/Venus issues. It's a lifestyle for them. I know (I've proven) for me, that just doesn't work. I'm worried for you because you clearly want more, AND you're willing to give more, but your W isn't. Period.

I guess that's not what I concluded from it. What I concluded from it is that as long as you pursue, your distancer will not, so you are always wanting more. When you get frustrated, you'll naturally back off, and when the distancer sees that they'll get nervous and pursue you enough to get your pursuit going again, then they run away.

I think what the book is suggesting is that if you break the cycle and don't pursue, even when the distancer seeks to suck you back in, then you can permanently upset the relationship dynamics. What happens next though isn't clear -- the implication is that you'll find a new point of equilibrium that is better balanced.

The book "The Passion Trap" addresses the same issue from a slightly different perspective. It talks about people being "one up" and "one down" in a relationship, where the one up is the distancer and the one down is the pursuer. It says that the one-up is as uncomfortable with the situation as the one-down because they feel they can never give enough, or the one-down is too critical, too needy etc. etc.

That model is slightly different because the one-up is not portrayed as selfish. That book suggests that when the one-down stops pursuing, the one-up will feel relief and will now have space to increase their contribution to the relationship.

So in "Solo Partner" model, the distancer enjoys being pursued and expects to get more from the relationship than they want to put in.

In the "Passion Trap" model, the one-up does not enjoy being pursued, and doesn't contribute more because they are effectively crowded out by the one-down.

In either model, backing off should lead to increased engagement by the one-up / distancer, and I have observed this short-term. Mid-term, it's creating problems. W doesn't know what's going on and is having trouble adjusting.

I've observed that she's been peppering in comments which I perceive as designed to "keep me in my place" as the one-down. She's said "It's not about me" several times with regard to physical affection, she said "there's nothing you can do for me, but you already knew that" with regard to ML, etc. I don't respond to that, but the only interpretation I have is that she feels the landscape shifting and wants to stay on top.

It will definitely be interesting to see how this unfolds.

Accuray

The other thing she keeps saying is "I just want you to be happy". When I say that to W, I expect her to tell me what would make her happy, and then I would do that. It took a while for me to learn that's not what W is looking for.

What W means is "I don't want to feel badly around you because of something I'm not doing for you. When you're happy I don't feel that way."

I get it.

Accuray

There's also game theory which states that people prefer to be chased, but loathe those that chase them. On the other hand people hate to chase, but love those they are chasing.

Originally Posted By: Accuray

It says that the one-up is as uncomfortable with the situation as the one-down because they feel they can never give enough, or the one-down is too critical, too needy etc. etc.

That model is slightly different because the one-up is not portrayed as selfish. That book suggests that when the one-down stops pursuing, the one-up will feel relief and will now have space to increase their contribution to the relationship.

THIS is a different take. It sounds more like your situation, like your wife doesn't really like your extra effort because then it makes her feel bad.

Hi Accuracy,
Have a question for you... go here to see it...

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2228943#Post2228943

Glad you started this thread, Accuray. As you know I've been at this for awhile but finally decided to stop contact. Any contact we have had has all been business or kid related, but all initiated by me.

I'm at week 4 and it's very difficult.

Did you read "The Solo Partner" or "The Passion Trap" Labug? You may find them helpful. (Nice to hear from you on my thread BTW)

Distancing for a pursuer is indeed very difficult. For me, I've felt like I've been doing a bad job as a husband when I distance. I've realized that measurement is against my own yardstick which W doesn't share, so historically I've been doing things that made me feel good and useful, but didn't necessarily help our relationship. To some degree, it feels badly only because it's different.

Now that I'm several weeks into it, some of it is becoming "normal" now, and a lot of the pain of new and different is passing. W went through a stage of being very anxious and uncomfortable, but we seem to be coming out on the other side of that as well. I've definitely noticed a difference in behavior where she is being more affectionate and trying harder for the last 5 or 6 days.

Hopeful this is a new norm versus a temporary correction.

Accuray

No, I haven't read those books. Is Solo Partner the one that's so hard to find?

I'll look into it.

My "Pursuit and Distance" experiment continues. I've really settled into letting W lead in terms of intimacy, but I have to admit it doesn't feel good. That said, I've pretty much stopped backsliding.

The good: W will hug me, W will reach out to me on IM to talk about household matters or the kids, we are ML about once a week.

The bad: Since I stopped saying "ILY", neither of us have said it at all. No kissing since I stopped initiating, no R talks, no real substantial "feelings" talks of any kind. No texting, no e-mailing, to me it feels very distant.

It's definitely been an interesting thing to do, when W is traveling it really takes an act of will not to send her a text saying "thinking of you" or something similar. I don't like not reaching out when I want to.

W clarified that she likes to hug me before we fall asleep, but she doesn't like it when I hug her as we're falling asleep, so I've stopped doing that and that has been a big loss for me in terms of feeling connected.

Overall I would say that the current distance is tolerable, but uncomfortable. I definitely feel much less connected than I did three weeks ago, and I feel like I'm not doing a good job as a husband and partner. When I step back, however, it's not as if I'm not reciprocating what I'm receiving, I'm just not projecting as much as I would like and that feels unnatural.

The experiment continues. Right now it's a square peg in a round hole. Either the edges will get rounded off or they won't.

Accuray

The Captain said something on another thread that resonated -- "friendship without romance". I really am thinking that's what W wants -- she definitely wants the friendship, she does not want the romance.

Accuray

Sounds like you two may have reached an impasse, hows the map coming btw?

The map is coming well. I've lost 8 pounds so far, working out regularly, but it takes time.

Accuray

map?

Originally Posted By: Accuray

The map is coming well. I've lost 8 pounds so far, working out regularly, but it takes time.

Accuray

Don't be doing more than two pounds a week. That is usually easier to accomplish at the outset. Dropping between 0.5 to one pound per week is easier to sustain once some intial weight comes off.

REM that you could also build muscle mass without losing weight. Yet, you can be losing the "bubble wrap."

Words to the wise from one whom has lost nearly 70 pounds.

The Captain

Thanks Captain, that 70 pounds is definitely an admirable success story. As I remember reading, you did that mainly through walking and hiking right?

Yeah time is definitely the key.

Athol says one year per sex rank is reasonable.

I do forget that at times, and think I can just use alphatude to get my W going. Lately for me my W has been a total sweetheart, loving, and wonderful to be with, but it hasn't translated to sex which is a little frustrating.

Currently doing crossfit that stuff is intense, I haven't been this sore since boot camp. Hopefully it's what I need to get that lean ripped body.

Originally Posted By: Accuray

Thanks Captain, that 70 pounds is definitely an admirable success story. As I remember reading, you did that mainly through walking and hiking right?

Correct!

The Captain

Hi Accuray,
I�ve read thru your threads and find myself wondering if I am a little like your wife. I have been with my H for 20 years, I love him and want him to feel loved and cared about however I find myself in a place where I do not desire him and I am not comfortable opening myself up to him - kissing him, being touched by him, etc. I know this is because of past difficulties in our relationship but I do not know how to regain (rebuild?) the desire to be intimate and sexually engaged. I feel stuck. I know that H has needs and it is appropriate for him to request sex X times per week and I try to accommodate that but it isn�t helping me to desire him. My biggest frustration right now is that I don�t know what it would take to help me feel that desire and feel comfortable opening up with him. I realize that sharing this with you may or may not provide any insight as to what is going on with your wife however I thought it might be helpful to hear from a different perspective.

At least you are making an attempt even though it is not producing the results "desired" (pun intended). The thing that brought me here besides an article I read on sexless marriages, is another article on 101 days of sex. The lesson from the couple that gave the interview and wrote a book about the experience indicated that sometimes you just have to plow through no matter what....or maybe you have to do domething different that produces the result through a seeminlgly unrelated path.

The other lesson is that both of them clearly wanted a sex life back that they once seemed to have. The question is: do you?

You suggestt that you do not feel comfortable opening up to your H. That suggests to me that you actually know that there is something to "open up" about that is in the way. Or maybe its just that you don't sex any longer and don't know what to say or what the consequences of telling that truth is.

From my POV and observation of my W, I think I can fairly say that being sexual when she didn't want to be was far more damaging than just cutting me off cold turkey. She seemed and seems happier knowing that she won't be sexually involved with me than worrying about taking the time to get all sweaty in something she does not want to do.

For some the sexual portion of the marriage ends up being a dead end and most of us don't expect it to tuen out that way.

The Captain

Hi Frustrated2,

Thanks for dropping by and contributing! These can be difficult topics to discuss for sure. Do you have a thread here?

Originally Posted By: Frustrated2

I�ve read thru your threads and find myself wondering if I am a little like your wife. I have been with my H for 20 years, I love him and want him to feel loved and cared about however I find myself in a place where I do not desire him and I am not comfortable opening myself up to him - kissing him, being touched by him, etc. I know this is because of past difficulties in our relationship but I do not know how to regain (rebuild?) the desire to be intimate and sexually engaged.

Well I assume from your quote that at one point you DID desire him, but you no longer do. Is that correct? If so, I think my W is a bit different in that she would claim to never have desired anyone sexually. Could you see yourself desiring someone else, or do you not desire sex no matter who it's with?

Whereas I was at one point hung up on the sexual aspects of our relationship, I've come to understand that sex really is not the issue for me -- the issue is intimacy, and sexual distance is just a symptom.

Aside from sex, are you comfortable being intimate with your husband? Do you make yourself vulnerable, are you willing to discuss your hopes and fears? Are you willing to be "seen" as it were?

Women are typically emotional pursuers and sexual distancers. My W is a sexual distancer AND an emotional distancer. Do you find that you are the same way?

Originally Posted By: Frustrated2

I feel stuck. I know that H has needs and it is appropriate for him to request sex X times per week and I try to accommodate that but it isn�t helping me to desire him.

From the books I've read, one bit of advice is that people assume that sex should follow desire, but it's been proven that for many people, desire actually follows sex, which is to say that if you just start doing it, you'll find you enjoy it, but that you won't necessarily desire it beforehand. Do you find that's the case? Once you start do you enjoy the experience, or is it bad for you all the way through? My W said to her it's like getting in a cold pool -- it's hard to overcome your resistance to starting, but once you're in it's good.

Originally Posted By: Frustrated2

My biggest frustration right now is that I don�t know what it would take to help me feel that desire and feel comfortable opening up with him. I realize that sharing this with you may or may not provide any insight as to what is going on with your wife however I thought it might be helpful to hear from a different perspective.

Sure, I'm happy to have the discussion, maybe the discussion can help both of us. Are you motivated to try to make it better? If so, what have you tried? Our MC suggested several books to my W as a good starting point, but she refused to read them. Do you have a plan going forward?

If at one point you did have desire for H, do you know what happened to make that desire fade? What did he do or not do?

Are there other men you find sexually desireable? What do they have that H does not?

Is there anything you could put your finger on that H could do that would make a difference? If he lost weight, got in better shape, started dressing better, became more assertive, became more active, became more emotionally attentive, any of that make a difference?

Have you read "The Five Love Languages?" What is your primary LL, and does H speak it?

Thanks!

Accuray

Accuray,

Could you expound on "sex really is not the issue for me -- the issue is intimacy, and sexual distance is just a symptom" for me please? Sorry, it's really not to assist you in your sitch, as I think you have a pretty good handle on your things, but rather my wish to understand how men define "intimacy." (Beyond sex, that is.)

Nice to hear from you CV, I hope things are going okay. I obviously can't speak for all men but I think of intimacy as it is defined in the book "Passionate Marriage". It's the notion of "letting yourself be seen" by your spouse, or allowing yourself to be vulnerable. With regard to fears for instance, you can either divulge them to your spouse or choose to keep them to yourself. If something is bothering you, you can either willfully discuss it, or keep it in.

Passionate Marriage says that once you can choose to be intimate (versus needing to be due to codependence) then you have arrived. The difference is that the codependent person would define themselves by their spouses reaction to them whereas the differentiated person would not.

My W is a very guarded person, she doesn't like to be transparent at all. She will not put herself out there or take chances emotionally. This defines both how we interact and how we ML. It took me quite a while to figure out that it was the macro level distance that was really bothering me and that sex was just a symptom. Before the bomb I misguidedly thought that making the sec better for her would provide the motivation to connect more overall, but in fact focusing on sex just drove her farther away because she does not respond to sex like I do. Obvious mistake to think that your spouse feels and values things the same way you do. That is a mistake I made in many ways. That's why I found the 5 LLs book so helpful.

I have to unfortunately concede that W did not start pursuing longer term once I started distancing, she said she liked it and asked for more distance and wishes I would be happy with that. I am not.

Accuray

Hey Accuray I saw you pop up at SLJ.

Was wondering if you were going to post there.

Thx, Accuray. I have that book but haven't started reading it yet. I needed a break from the marriage analysis for a while, and just enjoyed dropping into others' posts, and getting out and enjoying life in general. I'll have to take a look into it, though what you're saying is not off from my perspective at all.

I did some web searches on "what is intimacy to men" and it came up with some different things, specifics on the differences between men and women. Like women prefer to lean in and look the other person in the eye when talking, men don't; women like to talk about feelings and personal stuff, men hide their feelings and talk about sports; men focus on physical touch because they have less sensitive "feelers" so they need more touch to compensate; men consider doing things together (going to a movie) intimacy, even if no substantive conversation is had.

I understand this can differ with everyone, but you seem so in-tuned. Plus, you speak more here in a week that my H says in a year (to me, anyway.) When I asked him what intimacy was to him, he said he didn't know. And it didn't bother him that he didn't know, and least based on no follow-up research, no pursuit. And this knowing that lack of intimacy is a big problem for me.

So anyway, I really appreciate your answering. I don't think it's something I can use as a substitute answer for my H, unfortunately. It's really an odd thing how couples match up with such seemingly incompatible relationship differences.

Hi GB,

Haven't decided yet. Posting helps but if I spread around I probably won't be fair to my "helpers" in that I won't be attentive enough. If I feel I need the perspective I'll do it!

CV, I don't know if I'd read "Passionate Marriage" in your sitch. For me, it was very educational / instructive, but it also painted a vision of how good things can be and that's not something I can attain with my current partner, so in some ways it made things worse for me.

WRT your web research, those are stereotypes like "men are taller than women". MC said that the behaviors you describe are often reversed, and can "change sides" over the course of a long term relationship. You can also have reversal on some attributes and not others. He said it's more useful to say "emotional pursuers like to..." than "women like to..." because it's a more useful perspective. If you reject that, then just call me a woman because I'm the emotional pursuer in our relationship

In terms of how we match up, one thing I read is that we tend to choose people who abuse us in patterns in which we are used to being abused. Our ability to cope in that situation is a "comfortable place", so as odd as it sounds being abused in that way makes us feel ourselves because we know how to deal with it.

i.e. if you're used to having to work very hard to be acknowledged, then dating someone who worships you and is very attentive feels very odd and unnatural, you don't know what you did to deserve it, and you don't know what to do with it. Someone who was doted on as a child may not feel that way at all, for them it may feel natural. We choose to be with people who abuse us in familiar ways.

The other thing that happens is that we change. I admit that I wanted an independent person who would not rely upon me for their happiness when I got married. I chose that. What's happened over the course of our marriage is that I have moved to wanting more engagement, and W has moved to wanting less. We've both moved, it's just that our moves were not in sync.

Accuray

Originally Posted By: Accuray

Obvious mistake to think that your spouse feels and values things the same way you do.

I think this must be a common mistake and only obvious in retrospect.

You responded to my earlier post with some questions about how/why I got to where I am, and I think that this type of mistake was a huge part of the troubles in my relationship, my partner expected me to think and behave as he does, but I am not even similar. Additionally, as you referred to Passionate Marriage, I was (still somewhat am) co-dependant in the sense that my self esteem was greatly affected by H's actions and reactions.

The more that I read in books and conversations such as these, the more complex the issue seems. I truly appreciate being able to hear about other experiences and perspectives.

Me too Frustrated2, I would be happy to read about your sitch as I'm sure it will help inform how I think about things as well.

Accuray

Accuray,
Thank you for your interest in my sitch. I had been away from this site for some time (turns out it was about a year), I faded away from this forum and took some time to read and focus on improving myself instead of feeling like I was just complaining. I came back because I was having a bad day and needed some perspective.

After reading through my old thread, Trying Again, I was happy to find that I am not in the same place that I was a year ago. My relationship is still far from what I would like it to be, I still experience many of the same frustrations, and occassionally the angry and hurt feelings but I can honestly say that I have been working on it.

As the LD partner, I feel that I am in the minority here but I hope that by posting others can understand that the LD partner isn't necessarily being manipulative or mean; there may be others like me who feel hurt or dissapointed or just don't know how to be the partner that the hd partner wants them to be. It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of this in your own relationship and I sincerely hope you and your wife can find a way to engage in the intimacy you are seeking.

Frustrated2,

Yes, I know what you mean about feeling that you're always complaining, but that's kind of what this site is for, so people will either pat you on the back, or tell you to stop complaining and take some action.

One question I have for you: Do you feel you're LD "overall", or LD in the context of your marriage? i.e. do you feel your desire would be higher with a different man?

I guess what I'm asking is do you feel your sexuality is a given, or do you feel it's a reflection of your feelings about your husband?

Accuray

Originally Posted By: Accuray

One question I have for you: Do you feel you're LD "overall", or LD in the context of your marriage? i.e. do you feel your desire would be higher with a different man?

I have always been somewhat shy and uncomfortable being sexual but I honestly believe that I could have blossomed if the relationship had been different, if my husband had been patient and supportive and helped me build self confidence. I did desire sex with him early in our relationship but it faded over time as sex felt disconnected (it didn't feel like we were sharing an experience, it felt like he was very focused on the feelings that an orgasm gave him) and I felt disappointed. There was also a time when I tried something similar to the "just do it" where I could agree to sex and then actually find myself having a positive physical reaction but even that faded with the frustration of the demand for sex without the attention to the sexual relationship. It felt like sex became a chore to pacify this needy, greedy person in my life.

I actually hesitate to share the details of my experience with you because I sense that you are a very different type of person than my husband, but in case there are some general similarities, that perhaps you wife wanted to please you but didn't feel good about doing what she believed you wanted, then maybe it is helpful.

Thanks Frustrated2

I appreciate it. Have you discussed how you feel with him? That's a lot of resentment to carry for a long time. Telling a man you're not happy with him sexually is obviously a difficult discussion, but if you set it up right and came into it with the goal to make things better for both of you maybe its worth having. Do you feel the same way about other aspects of your marriage? Do you feel its all about him? Do you play a role in creating that dynamic? I'm sorry to hear about your unhappiness.

For W's part, I don't believe that my selfishness is an issue because I've always wanted and sought to provide a shared experience. W's parents were not very nurturing, they're response to her sadness as a child would have been to either humor her or tell her to get over it. I believe the defense she has developed is to closely guard her emotions. In addition, she convinced herself in all her relationships that her feelings don't matter. She tries to live that way, and then resents the position she's in. I've heard this sentiment from a few women on this board who have come to feel this way.

I am definitely challenged in terms of how to deal with it because its not something she's interested in changing and that makes it hard.

Accuray

Accuray,
I came back to your thread today with the feeling that I mis-spoke when I said "perhaps your wife wanted to please you but..."

You seem to have a good sense of what your wife is like and as you say above, you are more interested in figuring out how to deal with it. This is definitely hard and full of psychology. Obviously you are not happy with the status quo, but if you push too hard it will reinforce her feelings of the need to guard or protect herself. Since you seem to be committed to staying in the relationship my advice would be to keep working on it, be willing to move slowly and be supportive; build on the things that she is more comfortable with but also talk about how you would like the relationship to be different. I don't know that I really have any good advice to give, but please feel free to ask questions, perhaps I can help to share some perspective on what it is like to feel guarded, insecure, timid, etc.

Thanks Frustrated,

It's a Catch22 for sure, because to ask for something different is to point out that you're not happy with what she's providing already in her mind. She therefore feels badly and is less likely to try because why bother?

My MC described this as "not feeling safe", in that nothing you do is ever good enough, so why do anything? That would be easy for me to accept if I was a complainer, but I'm not. I'm not saying what she's doing is bad -- I'm saying "X is good, let's try to add Y too!" She hears "because you want Y, that means that X sux and I'm a failure to you".

Telling her I'm happy with X with no additional request also makes her feel badly, because I'm commenting on it at all. To her that means that the things I'm not calling out to comment on must be bad -- i.e. "I'll tell you I like X because it's the only good thing you do".

She tends to grab the worst possible interpretation of whatever I say. She realizes she does it, but says "that's who I am, deal with it".

As an example of this, the other week I had a morning meeting and said "can you take the kids to school this morning?" (Normally, I probably take them 80% of the time and she takes them 20%. I have no problem with that, I enjoy taking them.)

She got quite angry because she interpreted that as me complaining that "she never takes the kids to school and I have to do an unfair amount" and went off on a diatribe about that. I had no idea how she got from a nine word logistical question into such a soap opera. I didn't say it with tone, I didn't say it with a bad expression, I said "can you take the kids to school today?" and that was it. At the end, she said that she'll just take them all the time so I never have to do it. I said "but that's not what I'm looking for at all, I'm looking to have a discussion with you so we can manage this together. If you told me you also had a meeting, then I'd figure out if I could start mine from the car and maybe I could take them, but if you didn't have a conflict I wouldn't worry about it."

If you have any insight into how I can better negotiate situations like that, or avoid stepping into them, I would appreciate it.

Accuray

(FYI, I'm not talking about sex at all in the post above, that's not the issue)

Hi Accuray,

Reading how you've described your W's reactions, I wondered whether you have read "The 3 Faces of the Victim" (available online)? It looks to me as though she has been victimized in the past, unconsciously identifies herself as a victim, and therefore positions you as the aggressor in cases where you clearly aren't, because it "feels" familiar.

Unfortunately, because this is an emotional rather than a rational response, it's very hard to change unless she learns to "catch" what she's doing. Really, counselling for her would be your best bet, but I believe she applies the same mindset to that ("I'm just like this, poor me, so nothing can change it.")

I guess the positive part is that change IS possible ... although only if she is willing to work through the pain of really looking at what she despises about herself.

Thanks Cyrena, I think you hit it exactly on the head. I do feel that she "assigns" unhappiness or complaints to me that I don't have. I have told her that I want for her to be happy and would love if she would seek counseling for this either with me or by herself.

She absolutely refuses counseling, she says that there is no guarantee it will help, and that the pain of going through it isn't worth the benefits it might produce, she'd rather live with it and has accepted it.

If my situation does come to an ultimatum where I am to become the WAS, it will be this issue that will be the focus of my departure.

I will read the "3 Faces of the Victim" and thank you so much for recommending it!

Accuray

Accuray
How's her sense of humor. For me I've found accepting and escalating to work. In other words:

"did you leave the lights on again"

"yes, I'm doing an experiment on light consumption"

The key is to use a light humorous tone.

It diffuses the situation, makes her laugh, then hopefully makes her feel silly for losing her temper. Clearly it doesn't always work, but try you'd be surprised how often it works.

I can pretty much guarantee that if she has her dander up and I make light, she'll go over the moon!

Glad you can see that Accuray! That was my first thought when I read the lights exchange. "Again" is usually an indicator word that things are not happy.

It seems very counterintuitive then again a lot of DB is too.

I felt the same way, until I got to a point where I knew that I had nothing to lose.

It's broken up a lot of potential fights.

"that's who I am, deal with it" pretty effectively slams the door in your face doesn't it? It is easy (feels safe) to say that and walk away, but I have to wonder if she really likes being that way.

I will admit that I have behaved poorly (perhaps similarly) during some difficult times but I recognized it and was embarrassed by it and worked on changing it. My husband would say things like "you need to calm down" or "you're overreacting" and it would make me so much more angry but deep down I knew that he was right and I appreciated that he was still there trying to work with me in spite of my bad behavior.

For me, seeing that he kept trying to work with me, in spite of bad behavior, anger, frustration, fighting, etc. and hearing him consistently say that he loved me and wanted us both to be happy and stay in our relationship - that helped me to not feel so defensive and look for ways to be a different (mentally healthier) person in the relationship.

I can appreciate that, but it doesn't sound like it really helped that much, you still resent him and don't have "in love" type feelings for him right?

True, I don't have "in love" feelings for him right now, but I would say that my level of anger and resentment has diminished and I appreciate having some positives to keep me motivated to continue trying. It is a slow process, it has taken time for each of us to see the need or desire to change ourselves, to figure out what and how to change, and for the other person to recognize and trust that change is occurring.

What is your H doing to work on your marriage? What has worked and what has not?

Frustrated...

I know it's pointless to tell you to just try it anyway, but so much advice seems aimed at telling women to just get over it and start having sex.

What do you think of this?

Also I wonder if you are in the situation where you wish you wanted sex with your husband but you don't, so it's hard to. Getting told to just do it is probably not enough.

Me and my W go in circles about desire, and being in the mood, and how to get in the mood.

What is my H doing to work on the marriage? The honest truth is that I don't really know. He doesn't do counseling and doesn't read books and I doubt that he is even aware that forums such as this exist. I believe he simply decided that he needed to work on being different in the relationship too. For many years he believed that the problem was all me, told me that I needed to "come around", "give 100%", etc and said that he might have to move on if I didn't. I think he just sat back and waited for me to do that. I tried and tried to be the person he wanted me to be but it made me more and more miserable so instead of things getting better they were getting worse. He works out of town a lot and it got to the point where I didn't care to be in touch with him when he was gone and felt that if he decided to leave me then he would probably be happier doing so. He apparently found that he didn't want to leave me and wanted to work on getting along with me better. The changes are subtle (he is trying to be patient, better at listening, trying to treat me the way I have asked, etc.) and coincide with my own efforts to change so it is difficult to pin point what specifically is working.

As for the the question about "just start having sex" I believe that could work in many situations, but is not good universal advice. I think it is complicated and there are many different situations. If, for instance, the (lets just say) woman gets busy and sex gets pushed down the priority list then it is probably relatively easy to just do it when reminded that it is important. If the woman is feeling angry or hurt and is not feeling very loving then just doing it is more difficult; if she is willing to jut do it, I personally think that the man needs to appreciate the woman's efforts and both partners need to address the woman's feelings which can be difficult because the woman may not feel comfortable talking about it, may not know how to identify what's bothering her, the man may not recognize that there is a problem, might not give credence to her feelings or may not be willing to pay attention to her needs. If the woman is just that way, as Accuray describes his wife, then she is just doing it but it is not necessarily satisfying to either partner.

I did desire sex with my husband early in our relationship, have never wanted a sexless relationship, and would like to find myself desiring him (and sex in and of itself) again.

Thanks Frustrated, I appreciate your sharing.

Hi Accuray,
I've wondered a couple of things about your wife. First, does she care to improve herself or excel in other ways that are not directly about her relationship with you? and second, does she seem to allow herself to enjoy any physical activities that are not necesarrily sexual (such as back rub, foot rub, facial, excercise)? Maybe it is just the optimist in me, but I would have trouble accepting "that's just the way I am" and I am hopeful there is something for you to work with even though it would take time, patience and a lot of support to help her feel safe and willing to change.

Hi Frustrated2,

FYI, I started a new thread on the piecing forum, so that's where my new updates are. I'm going to copy your question and answer it there to keep everything in one place. Thanks!

Accuray

I would love to hear from you. I am where you were at when you posted this thread - pretty much all of the intimacy is from me with no return from her. She wants to stay in the relationship though but she doesn't want to break down and give in to intimacy - where are you at now? I am five weeks into this...

Do you have your own thread? If you start one I'd be happy to help you to the degree I can.

Accuray