Journaling here as much as anything else.
After a long roller coaster ride, W and I have been putting things back together. After a terribly low low, we had a generally positive recovery period and piecing, and I feel like we're now anxious to establish a new "norm" but haven't figured out where that is yet.
So what's going on? I have figured out I have issues, and I'm working on addressing them. I'm doing a ton of reading and going to IC. Intellectually understanding these things is one thing, actually making life changes to address them is something else, but I'm trying!
I have figured out that my primary love language is "words of affirmation", I feel loved when W compliments me, tells me how much she loves me, etc. I also want to feel needed, both in the relationship, and sexually. I have identified that I'm needy in this regard -- I need to get better at being OK with me, without W's validation. I am a "giver" and I am driven to please, and to be acknowledged for my giving, which is ironically a selfish act in many ways.
My W has low self esteem issues, but copes with them effectively. She puts up a wall and doesn't let people in, because she doesn't want to be "in" herself. She comes across as very together and business-like, while under the surface, she's dealing with feelings of inadequacy and anger.
Consequently, she is not giving. She does not give "words of affirmation", she does not seek to do the things she knows I like. However, it's very important that I not be disappointed with her. She will essentially neglect my needs until the point that I start to get sad, and then she'll have a breakdown and cry about the fact that she's not worthy, and start to make an effort, but when things level off, the effort disappears. This is hugely frustrating to me -- the pattern of NOT doing something, then getting upset that you haven't done it. Why not just do it in the first place?
When things happen in our marriage, or there are decisions to be made, her criteria seem to be (1) how she feels about it and (2) making sure I accept how she feels about it. My opinion is ok if it supports her feelings, but if it doesn't, then the only thing important about it is how it makes her feel. I believe this to be narcissism, but I'm not a professional and probably not qualified to conclude that.
This doesn't have to be major things. I like spending time with my W, and I also like being out of doors. I like to bike ride, swim in the ocean, go sailing, go skiing, kayak, etc. My W will not do any of those things with me. I admit I get resentful -- what would it cost you to go on a 10 minute bike ride with me? You don't like to ride a bike, but doesn't the fact that I'd like to share that experience with you matter? I have made an effort to spend quality time with her doing the things that she enjoys, but she doesn't really engage in any activities.
Sexually, we've had a desire gap since we had kids 13 years ago. As detailed in my other post, this contributed to many negative issues that eventually derailed our marriage. I read SSM and identified with it completely. I insisted that W read it as well, and to her credit, she did that for me. I know that my situation was not nearly as challenging as other people on the board, some may not even consider the marriage sex-starved. What I picked up with in SSM is that sex-starved doesn't have to do with frequency, it has to do with desire gap. If one person wants it 7 days a week and the other wants it 4, and the gap *bothers* the 7 day person, then you have SSM issues.
After her EA, she did not want me to touch her. She wouldn't kiss me, ML was out of the question, etc. This made me feel rejected and worthless, but I kept at it -- I would DB, give space, not pursue, etc. Eventually this paid off as W slowly started to come back emotionally. We agreed that I would not escalate physical affection, and that she would initiate all ML, with the understanding that we'd try to keep to a once per week schedule (Ideally I'd like twice per week, W would like once a month or once every couple months).
This worked really well for a while, and twice I felt that W really "wanted me" and was enjoying the experience. This unfortunately delivered exactly what I have wanted for so long and established how good the experience can be.
W has never had an orgasm while ML. I have often thought that if I could deliver that for her, she would like ML more and our experience would improve. I have often asked her to tell me what makes her feel good, what I need to do to get her there, etc. but she is entirely unwilling to discuss. She says that even talking about details of ML make her want to cry. (???) I have tried oral, hands, etc., but mainly she's very rigid and obviously uncomfortable with anything but more traditional ML.
She says that she does enjoy it once we get started, but it's hard for me to understand because she never indicates when it's good for her versus not, and I can definitely tell that in many cases she's just not into it, and that makes me feel dirty and badly about myself afterwards. Our marriage was characterized by my W's passive aggressive behavior and attitude toward ML for so long that I'm definitely scarred by it. I never want to be in a position where I feel I am "taking" versus being given.
I have stayed with the "no escalation" policy religiously since we agreed to it. A few weeks ago, I did indicate that I'd like to go on my schedule for a while with regard to initiating. That was a big mistake -- I couldn't handle it. I would feel guilty whenever I started, I felt like I was "taking" when I wanted to be receiving. I eventually told W I couldn't do it and needed to go back on her schedule, and that's where we are now.
I have been reading "Passionate Marriage" which is a very interesting book. What I've taken from this is that there is nothing I can do to make sex better for W if she will not let me. The reason she doesn't enjoy sex is that she doesn't feel good about herself, and there's nothing I can do about that.
I have also identified that I feel a lot of anxiety related to our desire gap. For years I was always afraid that each time we ML would be the last. Passionate Marriage talks about a "trained chicken" syndrome with low desire. The LD spouse will eventually consent to sex when they feel sufficiently guilty because they have rejected so many advances. This can condition the HD spouse to initiate much more frequently than they would really like, because they have to get enough initiations in to get the guilt level high enough.
He likened this to a chicken trained to peck a lever to get a pellet. Initially they get a pellet each time they peck, but over time the pellets get less frequent, but still come after "enough" pecks at the lever. In this scenario, the chicken's cage can be full of pellets, and they'll have pellets in their mouth, but they'll still furiously peck away because they don't know how many lever hits it's going to take to get the next one.
I definitely did not "over initiate" historically because I couldn't deal with the rejection. I waited until things were so bad for me that I had to initiate, and that would make the rejection so much worse. I did, however, identify with the anxiety issues above of not knowing when your next ML was going to happen and not being able to deal with that. It makes me fixate on ML, which is not a healthy dynamic in our marriage.
My DB Coach told me that my W may never be giving -- she may never meet my needs in the way I want them met. Therefore, she said that I have a choice, I can either decide to leave, or I can accept things as they are and try to make the most of them.
I've opted to stay and work on accepting, but I want to get to a place where I'm happy, satisfied, and am not projecting an aura of unmet needs to W. How do I do that?
Accuray
I wish I knew what to say, but I don't. See I am the opposite. I want to have sex every other day. I would try to approach my H and he would reject me. But when we did have sex, it was great.
Maybe fix her a nice candle light dinner with some nice music and see where that gets you. Hey you never know, he might go to sleep a happy man.
Hi Accuray! Your story gives me hope, and I'm happy for you that you're having success and learning from all this. I had lots of thoughts while reading your post so I'm going to chime in, as much to test some of my thoughts about my H and I as to hopefully be helpful to you.
we had a generally positive recovery period and piecing, and I feel like we're now anxious to establish a new "norm" but haven't figured out where that is yet.
What "worked"? What did you do that made her feel safe or encouraged or interested in working things out with you?
I have figured out I have issues, and I'm working on addressing them. I'm doing a ton of reading and going to IC. Intellectually understanding these things is one thing, actually making life changes to address them is something else, but I'm trying!
This shows such strength of character and humility. It's frustrating when the changes you're trying to make are internal - you can't measure you're progress or "see" the changes. Your W is lucky to have a H who's even willing to think about things like this, and you're reading and going to IC?! Good for you.
Consequently, she is not giving. She does not give "words of affirmation", she does not seek to do the things she knows I like.
This and the not learning how to enjoy sex, I read as an act of aggression. I believe there was some of that lurking in my own issues (replace acts of service for words of affirmation and you have what I was not doing for my H even though I knew better. And couldn't explain why I felt so "lazy"). I also had a lot of trouble having conversations about sex, but if it was important to H and I could make him happy and chose to put up a wall of fear and anxiety to prevent us from enjoying each other more...well, to me that sounds subconsiously on purpose. Not all low self esteem. In fact, controlling how giving she is may be a way of putting herself one up from you, so she feels more in control or whatever. If you feel bad about not "performing better" and so you become hysterical and upset, you can shut down the conversation so you don't have to try to do better. I can tell you, I have cried about comments H made regarding sex in the past, and let my sorrow and bad feelings get in the way of trying. I'm sorry I did that now. I think I had to get to this brink to realize I need to set down all of my pride, my ego, and get to work finding out how to be a better partner. It may be too late for this one.
I'm not saying my psychoanalysis of your W is on target, but some of your words hit home for me.
start to make an effort, but when things level off, the effort disappears. This is hugely frustrating to me -- the pattern of NOT doing something, then getting upset that you haven't done it. Why not just do it in the first place?
yep, I can put myself in your W's place there, and in fact have probably heard "why not just.." a bunch of times from my H. I can say, sometimes I almost could tell that I was sort of testing him by being so "bad", did he still love me? I didn't go through that exact thought process, but I could liken it to the feeling of when I was a kid, disobeying my parents' rules or just sort of intentionally not living up to their expectations. Something that kind of enlightened me about that was a book on birth order, might have been The Birth Order Effect, in which I related to the "disappointed perfectionist." The gist of it is, it's not going to be acceptable so why even try. I wonder if there's some of this going on with your W.
I know I would respond well to very enthusiastic praise for small achievements and letting a lot of slips go unmentioned. Be very very very patient. Forgive, forgive, forgive, and PRAISE. Don't have uncomfortable talks, and totally stop trying to force an "O." Just show lots of appreciation for even the smallest flicker of interest or skill. And not with a slant of "this is just a tiny step in the huge pyramid of what I want you to really do" but with a "I'm really happy about this one thing, that's it, just really happy." Just a few thoughts.
When things happen in our marriage, or there are decisions to be made, her criteria seem to be (1) how she feels about it and (2) making sure I accept how she feels about it. My opinion is ok if it supports her feelings, but if it doesn't, then the only thing important about it is how it makes her feel. I believe this to be narcissism, but I'm not a professional and probably not qualified to conclude that.
Is she interested in staying married, not just on her terms but for the good of both of you? It doesn't seem unreasonable for her to want to try learning your needs and negotiating them to fit around hers. This may be too soon to start working on negotiating, but down the road it sounds like you need to do that.
This doesn't have to be major things. I like spending time with my W, and I also like being out of doors. I like to bike ride, swim in the ocean, go sailing, go skiing, kayak, etc. My W will not do any of those things with me. I admit I get resentful -- what would it cost you to go on a 10 minute bike ride with me? You don't like to ride a bike, but doesn't the fact that I'd like to share that experience with you matter? I have made an effort to spend quality time with her doing the things that she enjoys, but she doesn't really engage in any activities.
This again sounds almost aggressive to me (on her part). You'll need to negotiate a give and take in your marriage. Maybe when you're meeting more of her needs and she feels more goodwill, you'll be able to start asking for more of your needs to be met.
I insisted that W read it as well, and to her credit, she did that for me.
That's impressive, and a big change from what you described about her. Did you show a lot of appreciation for her reading it? Did she provide any response to it? Did it make her feel pressured or uncomfortable, or the positive feeling of knowing lots of people have overcome similar challenges? Just curious whether the book was helpful.
This worked really well for a while, and twice I felt that W really "wanted me" and was enjoying the experience. This unfortunately delivered exactly what I have wanted for so long and established how good the experience can be.
Good for you! I would encourage you to be more patient. If she enjoys it once and you take that as proof that she should now want it all the time, she'll likely take a step backwards. I think your giving her the control over escalating was brilliant and she responded to it really well, in my opinion.
she never indicates when it's good for her versus not
Maybe this sounds weird but how about a silly code system so that, I don't know, turning her head left means oh yeah that's good. and how about if there was a code for no offense but I'm not into this could we take a rain check. It would be nice to have the power to just STOP and watch tv instead without feeling like you've crushed someone. I can't imagine a guy being willing to go along with this, but talk about letting her call the shots, wow.
The reason she doesn't enjoy sex is that she doesn't feel good about herself, and there's nothing I can do about that.
This sounds mean but you might understand it as a fellow DB'er. When there's nothing you can do, there's nothing you can do. But when there's something you can do, you feel empowered and take action and make your life better. There's something you can do. I don't know what it is. I mentioned above that there could be an element of punishment or control to her using low self-esteem to mask her insistence on not meeting your needs. Keep looking for what you can do differently that makes you a better person and more attractive to her, and that generates her goodwill. Keep working.
I've opted to stay and work on accepting, but I want to get to a place where I'm happy, satisfied, and am not projecting an aura of unmet needs to W. How do I do that?
I'm in the same boat here. My T has explained to me lots of times that I may succeed in saving the marriage (it's a long shot, she says) but I may realize in the end that I'm not satisfied with staying in it. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Right now, I've put ALL my needs on hold. I'm not getting ANY of them met by my H (well, other than the paycheck he brings home). Not ANY. Obviously, that's not a marriage I want to be in. I'm fighting tooth and nail to get him to want to stay, and then little by little, I'll have to negotiate with him that if he really wants to stay he needs to do X and ask for Y. Since he doesn't want to stay at all right now, the negotiating is premature. You're getting there because your W wants to be married to you for some reason and so she must be willing to do something to maintain that. But the more goodwill you generate, the more you can erase past resentments and be a better partner, the more likely she'll come around to wanting to meet you halfway.
Thanks for visiting my thread the other day, and good luck! You are doing amazing acts of love in this process. I admire you.
Thank you so much Adinva, your thoughts are really so helpful. Some additional thoughts and follow-up below:
What "worked"? What did you do that made her feel safe or encouraged or interested in working things out with you?
We had the ILYBNILWY, EA, D crisis that so many people have on this board. The fundamental problem in our marriage was that we were not connected. Both of us wanted to be, but neither of us knew how to make it better, thought the other person incapable or disinterested, etc., so we also never talked about it.
Historically, I *would* get a spark of that connection when we would ML, so that became a very important thing for me in our marriage -- it was one way I could connect, and I think it became overly important for me. There were so many places I was giving up my needs, putting myself in the backseat, etc. (in my view), but I was willing to deal with that and still stay in the marriage. I kind of decided that ML was one place I would not yield and WOULD be willing to walk eventually if needs were not met.
Based on how I felt about ML, I convinced myself that if I could make the experience better for W, that she would also feel more connected and everything would start to improve, so I probably put even more pressure there.
What I have learned is that W would NOT feel more connected through ML, W needed "quality time", and I wasn't giving her any.
When the bomb dropped I made the typical immediate mistakes (confront about EA, confront OM, beg/plead/reason about divorce, pursue, etc.), I was able to turn that around pretty quickly because I found this site, read the books, etc. and that helped to not push W away further, so I was able to stabilize pretty quickly. I also caught a huge break because the EA was over a few days before I discovered it, and was broken off by OM who went completely dark in order to save his own M -- I got VERY lucky there.
What "worked" was in many ways basic "DB" -- don't do or say *anything* to create resentment, don't bring up EA or OM, don't be angry, plan to do all the work myself, etc. I did make sure my W understood the financial realities of D, *why* I was interested in working on the M, etc. One thing I told her is that from this point, she could go forward with me, or find someone else and go forward with them. There was no guarantee that she'd be happy in either scenario, but if there was even a chance of finding happiness with me, wasn't it worth giving it a try? There is so much upside with regard to the kids, financials, shared history, etc. If there's even a slight chance it works out, let's see if we can do it!
Then, I made it my mission to understand what W needed from the M, what made W feel loved, and I set about making sure I provided that.
Although W was dead set on leaving, she slowly came around and very slowly started to engage until she was also "in". That was very trying to go through that for me.
Consequently, she is not giving. She does not give "words of affirmation", she does not seek to do the things she knows I like.
This and the not learning how to enjoy sex, I read as an act of aggression.
Why do you view that as aggression versus just neglect? Tell me more about that please! What do I do about it?
In fact, controlling how giving she is may be a way of putting herself one up from you, so she feels more in control or whatever. If you feel bad about not "performing better" and so you become hysterical and upset, you can shut down the conversation so you don't have to try to do better.
So you're saying that by not giving, she derives a feeling of control in the relationship. When I challenge her about the lack of giving, her breakdown is a way to prevent me from pushing it so she would have to try?
Interesting! What do I do about that? Since I had a WAW, I have some fear that she will walk away again, find another OM, etc. That's there every day. She's already established that she's willing to let everything go, so how much leverage do I really have to push her? Am I looking at this wrong?
yep, I can put myself in your W's place there, and in fact have probably heard "why not just.." a bunch of times from my H. I can say, sometimes I almost could tell that I was sort of testing him by being so "bad", did he still love me? I didn't go through that exact thought process, but I could liken it to the feeling of when I was a kid, disobeying my parents' rules or just sort of intentionally not living up to their expectations. Something that kind of enlightened me about that was a book on birth order, might have been The Birth Order Effect, in which I related to the "disappointed perfectionist." The gist of it is, it's not going to be acceptable so why even try. I wonder if there's some of this going on with your W.
I will look up that book as well. My W and I are both first borns, and she has told me outright that she feels competitive with me, and it bothers her that I am a better communicator, figure things out faster, etc. I don't feel competitive, but I'm very conscious now about not doing anything that would make her feel second rate.
I was thinking about this "testing" notion as well. To some degree, she's done the worst thing to me that she could possibly do, and I'm still here, so can't she move beyond that now? If I haven't proven I love her by sticking with her after an affair, changing myself, and putting my wants in the back seat, what else could I possibly do to prove it?
I know I would respond well to very enthusiastic praise for small achievements and letting a lot of slips go unmentioned. Be very very very patient. Forgive, forgive, forgive, and PRAISE.
Praise drives her crazy. She gets extremely angry when she feels I praise her. I told her the other week that she's a good wife and she got angry. Not sure what that's about, other than that she doesn't like to feel evaluated or graded, and praise makes her feel that way.
Don't have uncomfortable talks, and totally stop trying to force an "O." Just show lots of appreciation for even the smallest flicker of interest or skill. And not with a slant of "this is just a tiny step in the huge pyramid of what I want you to really do" but with a "I'm really happy about this one thing, that's it, just really happy." Just a few thoughts.
Yeah, I've given up on the "O", although I would love to work on it. It just makes me sad to think about going through the rest of my life with no effort or interest on that front. I will try your suggestions here for sure, being careful not to give praise, but to express appreciation.
Is she interested in staying married, not just on her terms but for the good of both of you? It doesn't seem unreasonable for her to want to try learning your needs and negotiating them to fit around hers. This may be too soon to start working on negotiating, but down the road it sounds like you need to do that.
She wants to live with no expectations. She wants me to view anything she does for me as a gift. She wants me to expect nothing. To be fair, she tries to treat me that way. She really never expresses an expectation and makes very few requests if any. I don't like that of course, because I like to provide and I like to feel needed and wanted. Like most people though, she is giving what she wants to receive.
That said, historically she DID expect me to "read her mind" with regard to how she was feeling and act appropriately, and when I didn't, she would get resentful. She doesn't *really* live with no expectations, she just doesn't express them and pretends that she doesn't expect me to do anything, but she does.
As The Captain pointed out on my original thread, asking me to have no expectations is actually setting a huge expectation of me to be able to live that way.
Her view of marriage is that we should each be 100% self reliant, and not *need* the other person at all, and that what we get from the marriage is a bonus.
I told her I like to view each individual as 80%, and the marriage provides the last 20% of happiness in our lives. We fundamentally have not agreed on that point.
You'll need to negotiate a give and take in your marriage. Maybe when you're meeting more of her needs and she feels more goodwill, you'll be able to start asking for more of your needs to be met.
She tells me I am meeting 100% of her needs. She tells me her "love tank is full" per the 5LL's, and that she has the relationship she's always wanted. The only thing she doesn't like is that she doesn't feel I'm happy with what she's currently bringing to the table, and she wishes I was. That's the last piece that's missing for her, that I be 100% happy with whatever she chooses to provide, versus asking her to provide something that I would like. I don't see how that's a realistic perspective, but maybe I'm off base there. She certainly tries to live that way with me, although she is not happy with herself.
That's why negotiating doesn't work, she doesn't ask me for anything -- there's no "I'll do this for you if you do that for me". Her response will be "do what you want to do and don't do it for me", so there's no sense in making a reciprocal ask. See where I'm stuck?
I insisted that W read it as well, and to her credit, she did that for me.
That's impressive, and a big change from what you described about her. Did you show a lot of appreciation for her reading it? Did she provide any response to it? Did it make her feel pressured or uncomfortable, or the positive feeling of knowing lots of people have overcome similar challenges? Just curious whether the book was helpful.
Yes, she read it and took it to heart. I think she understands that it's a huge issue and a deal breaker for me, and the message in the book for the LD partner to "step it up" resonated with her, so she is making an effort there. That is the best thing that's come out of this whole crisis from my perspective is that my sex life is A LOT better, just not where I'd like it to be because I'd rather have a completely willing partner than someone who is there "to serve" if that makes sense. This is one area in our life where she HAS stepped up, and that's made me feel good about staying the course. I just hope it keeps up, because her pattern is to back off once things get good for me.
I think your giving her the control over escalating was brilliant and she responded to it really well, in my opinion.
It was her idea, I can't take credit for that, and initially it was painful for me but I got used to it.
Maybe this sounds weird but how about a silly code system so that, I don't know, turning her head left means oh yeah that's good. and how about if there was a code for no offense but I'm not into this could we take a rain check. It would be nice to have the power to just STOP and watch tv instead without feeling like you've crushed someone. I can't imagine a guy being willing to go along with this, but talk about letting her call the shots, wow.
Yeah, we've done that, we've come up with some code words for "do you want to ML tonight" but she's not willing to go any farther with the communication, code words or not.
I'm in the same boat here. My T has explained to me lots of times that I may succeed in saving the marriage (it's a long shot, she says) but I may realize in the end that I'm not satisfied with staying in it. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Right now, I've put ALL my needs on hold. I'm not getting ANY of them met by my H (well, other than the paycheck he brings home). Not ANY. Obviously, that's not a marriage I want to be in. I'm fighting tooth and nail to get him to want to stay, and then little by little, I'll have to negotiate with him that if he really wants to stay he needs to do X and ask for Y. Since he doesn't want to stay at all right now, the negotiating is premature. You're getting there because your W wants to be married to you for some reason and so she must be willing to do something to maintain that. But the more goodwill you generate, the more you can erase past resentments and be a better partner, the more likely she'll come around to wanting to meet you halfway.
Thanks Adinva, I hope your H turns things around, I wish I could talk to him! You're a good person for putting so much effort into this and putting your needs in the backseat for so long. I know exactly how that feels, although I didn't have to endure it for nearly as long as you have.
Your comments here are most appreciated.
Accuray
She tells me I am meeting 100% of her needs. She tells me her "love tank is full" per the 5LL's, and that she has the relationship she's always wanted. The only thing she doesn't like is that she doesn't feel I'm happy with what she's currently bringing to the table, and she wishes I was.
I don't get what she's bringing to the table. What does she think she's bringing to the table? Just more ML?
She wants to live with no expectations. She wants me to view anything she does for me as a gift. She wants me to expect nothing. To be fair, she tries to treat me that way. She really never expresses an expectation and makes very few requests if any.
Assuming you're talking about your basic human emotional needs, I think you're missing something. She's denying that she has any emotional needs that she looks to her H for. While I'd argue that she's probably in denial about that, that all humans have emotional needs, just the fact that she had an EA suggests it's untrue. What did she get from the EA? She might benefit from counseling to figure out why she wants to avoid emotions, but she'd have to want to do that. Coming from you it would sound like pressure. (Where I'm getting this is that my H seems to be similar. While I always thought he was unemotional he really was just not expressing his emotions and then resentment would bubble over. My T pointed out that because he got angry with me I could see that there really were emotions there.)
Yes, she read it and took it to heart. I think she understands that it's a huge issue and a deal breaker for me, and the message in the book for the LD partner to "step it up" resonated with her, so she is making an effort there.
Well, ok. She learned there was a deal breaker and she did something about it. Maybe you go along with status quo until you discover that you've come to another dealbreaker - maybe with the physical needs being met better, you can be OK without the emotional part. Are you OK with that?
I still don't get what she values about your R that caused her to turn around on the ML issue. You presented a rational argument, the finances and why-not etc, and it worked - wow. For me, the rational arguments aren't enough - my H is in a fog about that stuff and just wants o-u-t. I'd still wonder what she was looking elsewhere for, just so you can improve on what you have with her.
Re my "aggression" comments. I'm projecting onto your W what I've learned about me. It may not be a fit. I always thought of myself as the better half of our relationship. I communicated, I was flexible, I was understanding and tolerant, while he was increasingly rigid, complaining, and difficult. I stated upfront when I needed him to be more respectful, affectionate, communicative. I really thought he had all the problems and my flaws were minor. I have since learned that my "minor" flaws were major in his value system, which is just as legitimate as my value system. My "minor" transgressions were creating a miserable existence for him. My excusable and understandable, and fixable, intimacy issues may have been destroying his love and respect for me. He wasn't communicating any of this so I thought we were happily married until he told me that he wanted to separate and get divorced. Not to go through every detail of our sitch, but in retrospect I think I was actually a lot more resentful and angry at him than I was willing to admit to myself or anyone, and I subconsiously took it out on him at every opportunity. The ways I did this were so innocuous as to be unrecognizeable - getting caught up reading the internet late at night, being right in the middle of something when he pointed out things that he wanted done, not fixing a food he remembered liking because I didn't think it would be good. Just little tiny ways of saying without speaking, "I do not care about you." In other words, my failures to meet or even understand his needs were acts of aggression I didn't even know I felt.
So when I hear someone won't go for a 10 minute bike ride because they don't like to bike...or kayak...or walk...or ML...it sounds kind of like aggression to me. If I can't get outside of my self-consciousness to do something my H would really love in terms of ML, well, again it sounds like resentment to me. In my case it was. I always planned that when my issues became a real problem for us I'd go get help from a sex therapist. But that time should probably have come a long time ago - my H just wasn't telling me that he was bothered. Instead he just decided the problem was that he wasn't attracted to me anymore.
I guess what I'm trying to say to you is that your wife sounds angry or resentful by withholding her needs from you and withholding her fulfillment of your needs. What she says on the surface, that a marriage shouldn't involve needs, doesn't ring true to me. But it takes all kinds. The real question for you is probably is your marriage enough to fulfill you now or how can it become fulfilling for you.
Rambling a bit today. Rooting for you, and happy about your major success so far!
Thanks again Adinva, this is super-helpful, I've been searching for someone who can give me your perspective as a historically LD wife! This is great.
I don't get what she's bringing to the table. What does she think she's bringing to the table? Just more ML?
Yes, good question. Sometimes I think she feels that she always had the marriage figured out and that I've now gotten on board, so she doesn't have to do anything new.
Other times, she gets sad that she's falling short, and I have felt like she's daring me to leave the marriage. I don't know if that's because she still wants out, but wants it to be easy because I'll be the one to leave? She denies that, maybe I'm paranoid. She told me that ending the marriage now will be "up to me", meaning she won't walk away again.
She has also told me that I'm "unlucky" to have her. I think she also fears that I'm with her just because I'm attracted to her physically. She's unhappy with herself, and has a hard time understanding why I'm so committed. In many ways it's the "not going to put in the effort and then be unhappy with the results" syndrome.
What's interesting to me is that she was able to get OM interested, and I'm still interested, so why does she have a hard time understanding why she's desirable? I think that's been validated.
Assuming you're talking about your basic human emotional needs, I think you're missing something. She's denying that she has any emotional needs that she looks to her H for. While I'd argue that she's probably in denial about that, that all humans have emotional needs, just the fact that she had an EA suggests it's untrue. What did she get from the EA? She might benefit from counseling to figure out why she wants to avoid emotions, but she'd have to want to do that. Coming from you it would sound like pressure. (Where I'm getting this is that my H seems to be similar. While I always thought he was unemotional he really was just not expressing his emotions and then resentment would bubble over. My T pointed out that because he got angry with me I could see that there really were emotions there.)
Yes, good point. Historically she kept everything in. She didn't feel it was her place to ask me to change or do anything to make her happy, that she should be responsible for making herself happy. She kept everything bottled up and eventually couldn't take it. When she realized she'd crossed the line with OM, she did go to counseling, but specifically to decide what to do about her feelings about me. She didn't even tell the IC about OM or the EA. The IC kept recommending that she talk to me, but she never did, she just told me she wanted a D with no chance to reconcile.
After the bomb, I started going to IC (the same person that W saw, who shared her diagnosis of my W with me despite the fact I kept asking her not to). The IC was angry when she found out my W hadn't let her in and told her about OM, I eventually had to change therapists. My W is dead set against continuing her own IC, or going to MC. She said it's hard for her to keep it together, and she doesn't want to feel worse.
Well, ok. She learned there was a deal breaker and she did something about it. Maybe you go along with status quo until you discover that you've come to another dealbreaker - maybe with the physical needs being met better, you can be OK without the emotional part. Are you OK with that?
I don't know. The fact that I'm posting here to talk about it tells me probably not. Many of the books I've read talk about the fact that a good sex life is essential for a happy marriage, the two mirror and reinforce each other. I do believe that unless the sex life is *good* there will always be a tax on the M. Based on all the pain I went through, I want the best M I can have. I don't want a 7, I want a 9.5.
I still don't get what she values about your R that caused her to turn around on the ML issue. You presented a rational argument, the finances and why-not etc, and it worked - wow. For me, the rational arguments aren't enough - my H is in a fog about that stuff and just wants o-u-t. I'd still wonder what she was looking elsewhere for, just so you can improve on what you have with her.
Don't get me wrong -- the rational arguments did very little, that's just negative reinforcement which isn't enough to change anything. I think it just gave her pause. It did a little to dispell the fantasy that everything would be better with me gone. The rational arguments would never be sufficient to change her mind however.
I also talked to her about what I wanted our "new" marriage to be. I convinced her that I didn't want to go back to what we had. I told her that we had an opportunity to start over, that there were no guarantees, and that if it didn't work that was OK with me too.
I also figured out on my own that what she wanted was *connection*. That's what she got from OM. She also wanted to feel that we were working as a team, that I wanted to spend time with her, that I would choose her over my hobbies, etc. That was the positive motivation.
Initially however she was so burned up she wouldn't let me in. She had constructed an intricate model in her mind of who I was, what I represented, what I would and would not do, etc. and a lot of it was just in her head. She had convinced herself of my badness to feel good about being with OM. I had to slowly demonstrate through action that she was inaccurate in how she viewed me, that she had constructed a caricature of who I was. That was the hardest part. She had her mind totally made up, and had added on layers of reinforcing beliefs that had to be stripped away one by one.
I had to be patient, supportive, and had to give her space. Basically it was everything you read in DB, 180's, act as if, etc. The only thing I didn't do is GAL, because historically I would GAL too much!
What did I do specifically? Right away I stopped pursuing about 95% of my hobbies, sports etc. Just quit cold turkey. Cancelled music lessons, dropped out of activities, etc. I started spending as much QT with her as she wanted. I had meaningful discussions with her. I treated her like we were dating. I used to come home, make small talk, eat dinner, spend time with the kids, then retire to the "man cave". I stopped doing that. Instead I would spend time with the kids, exercise, and then QT with W -- every night. I would IM with her from work, send her e-mails, up the communication.
I'm naturally a night owl, but I made it a point to go to bed at the same time every night. I changed my attitude towards the M. I started doing the dishes, I started doing the kids laundry, I picked up the clutter around the house that I knew bothered her.
I looked at every task in our lives necessary to keep the family going, asked myself if I just "assumed" that she owned it, and then challenged why I felt that way. I was no slouch before, I definitely did my share, but I definitely also had unspoken assumptions about things she was responsible for, and I rethought all of those. I particularly tried to pick up the things that she liked the least, or that caused her the most stress.
There was no "one thing" that worked, it took everything, and I can tell you it took every ounce of what I had to give to make it work. Nothing about it was easy -- and the whole time I was burned up inside! I wanted the apology, I wanted the remorse! I wanted her to care about MY needs! I had to smash all that down and it was very, very hard.
Re my "aggression" comments. I'm projecting onto your W what I've learned about me. It may not be a fit. I always thought of myself as the better half of our relationship. I communicated, I was flexible, I was understanding and tolerant, while he was increasingly rigid, complaining, and difficult. I stated upfront when I needed him to be more respectful, affectionate, communicative. I really thought he had all the problems and my flaws were minor. I have since learned that my "minor" flaws were major in his value system, which is just as legitimate as my value system. My "minor" transgressions were creating a miserable existence for him. My excusable and understandable, and fixable, intimacy issues may have been destroying his love and respect for me. He wasn't communicating any of this so I thought we were happily married until he told me that he wanted to separate and get divorced. Not to go through every detail of our sitch, but in retrospect I think I was actually a lot more resentful and angry at him than I was willing to admit to myself or anyone, and I subconsiously took it out on him at every opportunity. The ways I did this were so innocuous as to be unrecognizeable - getting caught up reading the internet late at night, being right in the middle of something when he pointed out things that he wanted done, not fixing a food he remembered liking because I didn't think it would be good. Just little tiny ways of saying without speaking, "I do not care about you." In other words, my failures to meet or even understand his needs were acts of aggression I didn't even know I felt.
You *may* be too hard on yourself here. If you were in the middle of something when he made a request, you were in the middle of something! It's not like you did that to spite him unless you could see the future. It's hard for me to see the balance between looking out for your own needs versus being passive aggressive about H. You may be taking on too much responsibility here.
You can't be a good relationship partner unless you're good with you, and to do that, you have to see to your own needs too.
One thing my DB Coach and my IC both keep telling me is that I cannot own my W's issues. Those are hers to deal with. If you were not meeting your H's needs, I would have to think it's because he wasn't meeting your needs either.
One thing I liked about the SSM book is it made me understand cycles in relationships. If you do a positive act, you get a positive response, then you do another positive act, and pretty soon you're both spinning in a good direction. The opposite is also true -- you reject H for sex, he withdraws and does not spend QT with you, you get resentful and dig in even harder on no ML, he feels even more resentful and hurt and withdraws even farther, or gets critical, and you're in a full scale negative hurricane.
The point is, you don't do that by yourself. If H was giving you what you needed, you would have stepped up for H. That's how it works (or should work, I seem to be having issues with W in that regard!)
So when I hear someone won't go for a 10 minute bike ride because they don't like to bike...or kayak...or walk...or ML...it sounds kind of like aggression to me. If I can't get outside of my self-consciousness to do something my H would really love in terms of ML, well, again it sounds like resentment to me. In my case it was. I always planned that when my issues became a real problem for us I'd go get help from a sex therapist. But that time should probably have come a long time ago - my H just wasn't telling me that he was bothered. Instead he just decided the problem was that he wasn't attracted to me anymore.
I wish my W would go to a sex therapist. There is no way. She told me that her LD doesn't bother her at all, so she has no reason to work on it. I think that she feels as long as she steps up the frequency, that's good enough -- but it's not! I'm not looking for anything crazy, I just want intimacy and connection, I want mutual desire.
My MIL is a narcissist. Everyone recognizes that, including W. It's all about MIL. I think my W has some of that going on, but then has episodes of realizing it and feeling badly about it, but those episodes aren't enough to motivate any change. I don't know what to *do* about it, that's what's frustrating.
I guess what I'm trying to say to you is that your wife sounds angry or resentful by withholding her needs from you and withholding her fulfillment of your needs. What she says on the surface, that a marriage shouldn't involve needs, doesn't ring true to me. But it takes all kinds. The real question for you is probably is your marriage enough to fulfill you now or how can it become fulfilling for you.
Rambling a bit today. Rooting for you, and happy about your major success so far!
Thanks Adinva. I feel like I was resigned to mediocre before. I figured out how to cope, and I was going to make it work. Now that I've been put through the wringer, I want great! If I'm going to do all this work and make all these positive changes, why stop at "good enough"? Let's take it up a notch, you know? Wish W would join me on that mission, it would be better for both of us, I know it would.
I realize I'm lucky, there aren't a ton of success stories. I should be very glad with just having W back. I should be proud of what I've done already. Instead I feel like it's not enough. My goal in IC is not to deal with my crisis anymore, it's to be the best marriage partner I can be. I told IC I want to turn over all the stones and work out whatever I need to work out. I'm all in.
I guess I choose to keep going.
Accuray
[/quote]
Thought I would add my 2cents.
I can relate to how your W feels. On occasion I have had similar feeling (although my feelings only last 2-3months). For me it was some type of your depression.
Does your W see a T or has she tried AD? I know its hard to suggest these things when you are trying to put things back together but those things may help.
It seems obvious but I think she needs to get in touch with herself more before any chance of a big O
Hi - I think by aggression I should have made clear it was in response to things H wasn't doing. We definitely cycled negatively just like you described. I was angry and didn't know it. I said ILY and spoke my love language, but underneath I had felt neglected for so long that I was really angry.
In this situation we're in now, I basically dropped all of it. Forget the anger, forget the unmet needs, just see if we can get to where we want to stay together and then improve things from there. That sounds like where you are now.
In a million or more words, I guess I've been thinking, is there something your W has been angry about that she doesn't even know about? That's hampering her interest in ML as well as other acts of emotional caring.
The DB way, I think, is not to look so hard at the past, just find what works and do it. You're doing that!
Thanks BklynMom! I appreciate your help.
Does your W see a T or has she tried AD? I know its hard to suggest these things when you are trying to put things back together but those things may help.
No, my W refuses to see a T or to consider AD, even though her mother and sister take them. She is very proud and stubborn and I think she refuses to think that she needs any help. She is extremely stubborn!
It seems obvious but I think she needs to get in touch with herself more before any chance of a big O
Agreed, I just don't know how to encourage her to do that, she's not interested.
The way I discovered OM was that I found her email and IM correspondence with him. She was very affectionate and loving. She was much more vulnerable than she has ever been with me.
What makes me crazy is from reading that, I know she's capable of being warm and affectionate, I just don't inspire that in her, or she won't give that to me and that hurts -- a lot.
At one point I asked her about that (mistake). She said that OM had no expectations, so she could be affectionate. I don't have high expectations! So much of it is in her head. I think the truth is that OM made it clear his W came first, so my W had to pursue. When I try to give space and let her pursue me she just starts crying.
I'm not sure what to do, but I hate feeling this way.
My W loves a TV show that's on Thursday nights. I have been watching it with her although it's not something I would choose to watch. It makes her happy and I like being part of that. Tonight I suggested we watch one of my favorite shows too and she agreed. She sat there the whole time with an angry/disinterested look on her face, and at the end told me it was awful, then we watched her show.
Really?
Accuray
In a million or more words, I guess I've been thinking, is there something your W has been angry about that she doesn't even know about? That's hampering her interest in ML as well as other acts of emotional caring.
Yes, although I don't believe I'm the root of that anger, I think that goes way back. She does have a hair trigger on some days, and often her reaction to the kids is out of proportion to the offense. I realize that unpredictability in a parent is not a good thing for kids, but it's not so bad that I think it's really causing issues, it's fairly rare.
She knows she's got issues, but she's not willing to address them. She says she's satisfied with the way she copes, and it's not worth the pain to dig down, I don't believe she thinks its fixable, or if it is, it's not worth the effort.
The the spirit of DB, the question is what do I *do* about it? Is it OK to have R talks now that we're on a good path to reconciliation, or is that still to be avoided? The DR gives you a seven step program to get back from the brink, but once you hit the starting line to reconciliation, it's uncharted territory. Glad to be here, what do I do next?
Thanks,
Accuray
Venting...
Maybe I am crazy. Last night when we went to bed my sister's OM came up, he had requested to connect to me on LinkedIn. My W asked how I felt about him. I told her that I didn't think what he had done was right, that he had pursued a married woman with young children and effectively broke up a marriage. I said that I'd be polite with him because my sister chooses to be with him now, but that doesn't mean I will ever accept how they came together. My W argued that my sister had accepted his overtures and kept it going, etc etc. Looking back on it, I heard her defending her own OM -- maybe she was, maybe she wasn't but it made me crazy anxious. I tried to gracefully end the conversation, then went and took an AD pill because I couldn't sleep at that point.
This morning we were talking and she said her friend who is also married and is a serial cheater was sad about the Penn State situation because she's a big fan. I said "really, that's what she's sad about? I don't understand why people get so attached to sports teams." That set my wife off telling me that I was wrong for not understanding why people like sports so much, and why it was OK for her friend to be sad. I heard my W telling me that the way I was feeling about it was wrong.
W and I discussed it later in the morning, and she told me that everyone is entitled to their feelings, and that I was saying that her friend's feelings were wrong. I told her that wasn't the point, her friend wasn't here -- I wasn't going to talk to her friend. I was sharing my view on it with my W.
Obviously lots of subtext there. I think the root issue is that W has never said she felt what she did was wrong. She was sorry for how it made me feel, but felt justified. That's been simmering with me. Any time I hear her talking about infidelity in a way that portrays it as OK, it makes me angry. Don't know what to do about that.
--Accuray
Your wife sounds so depressed. Its kind of sad. She is definitely picking fights with you.
You need to help HER GAL without telling her you are doing it. Help her find the things outside the bedroom that she is passionate about and support her in doing them. She needs to find her passion then find herself then find you smiling.
Hang in there.
Good advice BklynMom! She has had trouble maintaining friendships and I know that bothers her a lot.
A couple years ago she started going to church out of the blue and taking the kids with her. We had never gone to church from the time we met. She's since become passionate about the community aspects of it and has take an active role.
Initially I tried going with her but it really wasn't for me, and I would grumble about the financial and time commitments she was making. I stopped going and would spend the time doing my own thing.
Since "the bomb", I've tried going back with an open mind, and trying to be supportive. My IC told me to stop going because now I'm not doing enough for myself, and I could use that time for me. Based on your advice, I think I'm going to disregard that and keep going!
Accuray
You can support her church involvement without going yourself by picking out the things that are good about it and smiling and showing your happiness about those. You don't even have to accept it if she makes commitments that she can't keep, or commitments that obligate the family to do things the rest of you can't do or don't want to do.
You just look for the things that you and she both think are good about her role in the church and show her your happiness about those things. It doesn't have to be big, overt gestures, either. The grumbling you mention as a problem probably wasn't composed of grand gestures of disapproval, right? It was probably offhand comments and body language. Yet it had an impact. Positive but small, offhand comments will build up the same way.
I haven't been around for months . . . . have you sat down with your wife lately and told her that you feel lousy because you get the impression that she thinks her affair was justified, although regrettable?
If so, what did she say?
If not, I think it's likely that nothing else will help much until you clear that air.
Thanks SillyOldBear,
have you sat down with your wife lately and told her that you feel lousy because you get the impression that she thinks her affair was justified, although regrettable?
If so, what did she say?
Yes, I did get to the point that I couldn't keep it in any longer and had that discussion with her about a month ago. She once again reinforced that she's sorry for how it made me feel, but argued her point again about why it was justified. I left that conversation understanding that I was not mis-interpreting how she felt.
She felt that since she was already checked out of the marriage, and on a path to get divorced, that it wasn't really a betrayal in terms of where her committments were. She also felt that it was necessary to go through that to help her pull the trigger on asking for divorce, otherwise she would have been consigning herself to more years of unhappiness. Based on my reading, her view of it lines up with an "exit affair" where WAW needs the crisis to make a decision. That's I believe why she doesn't regret it and feels it was justified.
Accuray
Journaling...
I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" -- great book, but challenging in many ways.
As I posted above, I would like to have more passion and connection in our marriage. I had assumed up to this point that "who wouldn't want that?" and that it was more or less a universal goal.
The section of the book I read last night talks about the fact that the level of passion and intimacy currently in your marriage is exactly the "right" negotiated level based on what the two of you can tolerate.
Attaining more connection and intimacy can be painful, because it requires opening up more, and becoming more vulnerable. That journey requires work and potentially pain, but once you come out the other side, the rewards should be significant.
The other thing I read about is the notion of being "chosen". Often when we marry, one partner "chooses" the other, or does the bulk of the pursuing. This sets a power dynamic that persists through the marriage, where the pursuing partner doesn't feel "chosen" and is constantly trying to get that feeling. This translates to low desire -- the LD partner is the one with the "control" because they set the rules for frequency, level of intimacy, etc.
My revelation is that my W does not *want* more intimacy. She wanted more than zero, but she doesn't want more than she has now. I was talking to my IC about the fact that I was much more at peace when I was withdrawn. I feel like if I'm going to be in, I want to be "all in", but my W does not feel the same way. My IC says that the pain from that is the cost of playing the game.
As I mentioned above, my W read SSM for me. She did take it to heart, and we have been ML average 1.5 times per week, which has been GREAT. Initially she was "there" with me, but she has been progressively sliding away. At this point, we haven't ML in about 9 days. Last night she was grumpy, and then we watched a movie together and she was falling asleep.
When we went to bed, she said "do you want to ML?". Of course inside I was screaming "YES", but then realized that I do not want to ML with someone who is falling asleep and not "there" with me. I told her she seemed so tired and she said "do you think that will ever change?" Then she said "maybe tomorrow, we're not supposed to go this long"
That really bothered me, and I woke up early thinking about it. I don't want this to be a treadmill that you have no interest in riding but feel you have to. When MWD talks about the LD partner "stepping up" in SSM, I don't just interpret that to mean frequency, I interpret that to mean effort.
Therefore, instead of hearing my W say "we're not supposed to go this long", I'd much rather hear her say "we're not supposed to try so little".
--Accuray
It's harder for you because you've agreed (not for bad reasons) to allow her to do all the pursuing, and she's not pursuing--I completely understand that she sounds grudging and apathetic to you when she talks about what you're supposed to do. That's not an attempt to turn someone on and get them to have sex with you.
On the other hand, if you want sex to get any better, I wouldn't turn it down unless YOU don't feel like it. Let her deal with whether she feels like it and what her reasons are for now. You decide whether you want to do it and give the answer you want to give.
It's interesting that you're reading Passionate Marriage. I posted that last comment after reading only the second page. Now that I've read the first page of your thread, I wanted to ask you about PM. Specifically, have you read the parts about people who avoid intimacy because they "don't want to want" someone? That's the first thing your wife's approach to marriage made me think of. She seems scared to need you or even want you--like it's safer to be self-contained. From your writing I can't imagine that ever working for you.
On the other hand, it's normal when you try to fix a marriage to feel like you're the only one making an effort, maybe the only one who cares at all. It's fairly normal to be TOLD that the other person doesn't care about all this, and even that it's weird that you do.
Oh, and your counselor situation sounds terrible. WTF was that counselor thinking? Did you know you were going to the same IC your wife had used?
Thanks SillyOldBear, I appreciate your help.
Specifically, have you read the parts about people who avoid intimacy because they "don't want to want" someone? That's the first thing your wife's approach to marriage made me think of. She seems scared to need you or even want you--like it's safer to be self-contained.
Yes, I agree (and my wife agrees) that she has issues. She's not happy with herself, doesn't feel loveable, etc., but she's not willing to do anything about it.
I fear that she feels competitive with me, and because I'm more energetic and motivated, she feels that I make her feel worse about herself, like she's not measuring up (she has used those words with me). Sometimes it feels like the nicer I am to her the worse she feels. It's like there is an unspoken expectation to reciprocate, and she doesn't want to do it so feels badly. I'm not looking for reciprocation -- I take pleasure in being giving. I'm just looking for more intimacy and connection. I believe that's why OM was such a nice escape, he was more low-key, and didn't expect anything of her really. Although the guy is gone, I still feel I'm living with his ghost to some degree, but maybe I'm just paranoid.
Assuming my W is not willing to open up to me, or does not "want to want" me per PM, what do I DO about it? The book is all about couples who want to work together. If one does not want to do the work, should I just give up on pushing things forward and try to get comfortable with status quo?
From your writing I can't imagine that ever working for you.
I missed the context for that remark. Can you explain?
Oh, and your counselor situation sounds terrible. WTF was that counselor thinking? Did you know you were going to the same IC your wife had used?
Yeah, when W dropped the bomb on me, she wasn't feeling in a very consoling mood so recommended that I seek IC. Since I was in pretty bad shape (insomnia, dry heaving fits, etc.) she suggested I just go see her IC.
I saw a couple advantages to that (1) the IC would have all the backstory walking in so I wouldn't have to do 2 sessions to just explain what was going on and (2) the IC would have my W's perspective on me, so if I had blinders on or was being unreasonable, she could call "BS" on me. I think in the right scenario that could have worked to my advantage.
As it turns out, when IC got my side of things, she was personally angry at W for putting one over on her, not letting her in, and not telling her about the affair or OM. (Those were fairly important details to keep to yourself). She said that W is extremely private, compartmentalizes, and in her 20+ years of practice no one had ever deceived her like that.
Unfortunately, IC wasn't able to get beyond that, and spent the next few sessions sharing her diagnosis of W, telling me she was a bad person, that she'll surely cheat on me again, etc. I would walk in there feeling reasonably stable, like I understood W's rationale for what she did, etc., and IC would pull the rug out. I'd leave feeling like I was married to Mrs. Evil and it made me feel horrible. I do not believe IC was right, as both old IC and new IC seem to be reading out of the same textbook about people who have affairs. It's not that simple.
After two sessions of telling IC to forget about W and talk about me, I was done. I took a break, kept going with DB coach, and eventually found a new IC. This one is not as easy to talk to, a bit more judgemental, but hopefully will be more effective. Having switched it's clear to me how important it is to have a great IC versus an adequate one, and I still don't think I've found that.
--Accuray
Journaling...
Sad today -- thinking about W and OM. Thinking about how happy she was about that relationship and how passive she is in ours.
At one point she told her friend that she needed to change her circumstances to be happy.
Her friend told her that all the happiness she needed was available to her, she just had to choose it.
She disagreed -- she said are you happier living on your own than you would be living with your mother?
Ugh, I'm not happy. I've been trying to pretend, but I'm not. I want this relationship to work so badly, but I'm not happy. I can't change W, but I have changed and W hasn't come along.
Is this WAS talk?
Confused....
Accuray
Accuray, I'll provide you with some thoughts this weekend (H is traveling for work and very likely "pleasure" this weekend).
I can see a bit of myself in what I've quickly read about your wife. Even though I've been "LD" with my spouse, I had been tempted in a couple situations by other men (but carefully avoided letting anything happen). I think you are likely facing a combination of her issues and the downward spiral of your marriage.
Hang in there!
Thanks Nblost, journaling:
W had 2 previous EA's with co-workers. One was with a guy about 7 years younger who had a pregnant wife. He never really went over the line, although they had very frequent call / chat / text sessions at odd hours (what did his wife think?). My W was head over heels "infatuated" with him to use her term for it. That went about 8 months. After that she had the "serious" EA with a different co-worker, married, my age. That one was going physical at the point OM put the brakes on to save his own marriage. To call it an "EA" isn't really fair, as there was kissing and fondling. I was oblivious to both, I knew about both men, but trusted W completely. I would have bet everything I owned that W would not cheat on me.
Needless to say, I'm a bit paranoid about coworkers now. W has a new job. I found out in conversation with a 3rd party that W has gone to lunch a few times with a new co-worker. He's 7 years younger, new baby, married. She mentioned to me last night directly that she had lunch with him yesterday. I must have raised my eyebrows a bit because she started telling me about all his drawbacks. She also used to do that with OM -- "we're just friends, he's married, he has this shortcoming, blah blah blah"
What do I do with this? Ask if I can see her chatlog from work? I guess ignore it.
I have been venting here quite a bit about W. It probably seems more negative than it is. We are truly piecing and working on things, and there are definitely good times. Overall our marriage is better than it's been in years -- it's my state of mind that's not.
Honestly, our biggest challenges now are W's self-esteem issues and my "damage" from the bomb and OM. I have not "zinged" her once or brought it up in any kind of accusatory context. But it's definitely affecting me, it chips away at me every day.
Sex continues to be an issue for me, and I wonder what's wrong with me. I have honestly considered going on stronger AD's hoping it will both lift my mood and knock down my sex drive, but I hate to take them for that reason.
If I go too long without ML, I get "crazy", and not sexually. Here's what happens, when ML does not occur when I would like, it doesn't effect me that much in the moment, so I don't make an issue of it. The next day, I start to have some dark relationship thoughts. By the next day, I start to withdraw and I have to fight to stay engaged with W, hug her, spend quality time etc. without seeming down. By day 3, I'm very dark, thinking about OM, etc.
At this point I start trying to convince myself that I don't need to ML, that I'll be fine without it. In order to keep that going, I NEED to be less physical with W. At that point I can no longer cuddle in bed, sit close to W, etc. She starts to notice this (obviously) and thinks she's done something to make me sad or upset, then she starts to get down despite my reassurances. At that point I have to work even harder to be physically affectionate and keep a positive bearing.
Now I'm really torn up inside, it's taking tremendous effort, and now it's not really about ML -- it's about the effort she's not putting into the relationship, my insecurity about OM, it's like an infection that starts to just taint everything.
Then, once we do ML, it's like the reset button is pushed and everything is happy again.
How do I fix that?
How do I work on me in this regard?
Is this "normal" in any way, or am I off the charts?
--Accuray
Just to clarify, this doesn't happen every 3 days. It could be up to 10 days between times when I feel I really *need* to ML. It's when it doesn't happen at that point that the cycle described above kicks in.
Accuray,
Your wife sounds kind of like me. I know you are venting the bad stuff and I'm guessing your wife has some redeeming qualities around being a good wife and mother. I'd try to build her up around the things she is doing well.
Here are a few thoughts:
-Does your wife have close girlfriends? I had lost touch with most of my friends (blaming it on 3 kids and a H who works/travels a lot/moving 2,000 miles). If she doesn't, she likely feels bad about it...so I wouldn't push her to do things with other women (women are all so busy at this stage of life it can be hard to find people to connect with regularly). But, recognize she may be missing getting emotional support and happiness from friends. Maybe there are times when she has chances to do things with other women and you can be more aware of jumping in to help with the kids, etc.
-I'm somewhat insecure underneath a very successful career and life. I've always had a few issues with my body (which my husband thought was insane) and it bothered me when he touched me in certain places or in certain ways. I'd find subtle ways to tell your wife how beautiful and attractive she is.
-Does your wife ever have orgasms? I didn't (through several boyfriends) until I was "on a break" before I met my husband. I focused on seeing if I could bring myself to orgasm...for me, it works well to read erotic stories. I also kind of like porn and get turned on by it. I usually have to bring myself to orgasm when I'm with my husband...but he can get me there sometimes. I don't think it's the end all be all to ML, but if she's never had one or doesn't have them in front of you, I would bet it bothers your wife a lot. I knew I was one of just a couple of my friends who wasn't having orgasms in college and it bugged me. I think those bad feelings then flared up more in my marriage when my H said I was LD and he felt I "just wasn't a sexual person".
-It's great you are putting things back together and I'm not sure how you try to weave in more counseling...but I wonder if your wife would benefit from seeing a sex therapist. Our MC is also a sex therapist and he had me fill out a questionnaire for him on my sexual history. The power of that was that I filled it out and wondered if my answers would highlight how I am "not a sexual person". Nope, our therapist told me I seemed very normal. For some reason, this was very freeing for me to learn. If we can get back to MC, I'm excited to see what he can do to help us.
-I'm trying to survive my H's A right now. I think because I'm deep down so hurt and vulnerable...I'm more sexually charged than ever. (H has noticed this). He hasn't had sex with me in about 6 months and I really miss it. I'm not suggesting you have an affair (please don't!)...but it sounds like you and your wife were starting to establish a routine that somewhat worked for her. I wonder if you could work with a counselor to come up with a way for you to tell her you need more and how serious you are. Also, try to take some of the pressure off like SSM recommends.
-I think the more you can encourage your wife to find herself and do things for her...hopefully she can be happier and build self esteem. I know being a mom can be a sex drive zapper...looks like you guys are in the thick of it like we are.
Not sure if any of this helps, honestly, if my H and I try to reconcile, I think he'll struggle with some of the same things you are. I wouldn't be surprised if we go through low points where I am not feeling good about myself again. I do think going through the "crap" we are going through makes one more open and maybe your wife will eventually be willing to open up and lose more control.
Hang in there!
Thanks Nblost,
This is super helpful! I really appreciate you taking the time to help me with everything you have going on. I will try to answer your questions below.
I know you are venting the bad stuff and I'm guessing your wife has some redeeming qualities around being a good wife and mother. I'd try to build her up around the things she is doing well.
Yes, she is a wonderful mother and I love her very much, that's why this is so painful for me. I really just want to see her happy, and it's frustrating that I don't have the ability to provide that for her. I'm very attracted to her, I like talking to her. On the occasions when she IS happy life is great. Those times are unfortunately far between.
-Does your wife have close girlfriends? I had lost touch with most of my friends (blaming it on 3 kids and a H who works/travels a lot/moving 2,000 miles). If she doesn't, she likely feels bad about it...so I wouldn't push her to do things with other women (women are all so busy at this stage of life it can be hard to find people to connect with regularly). But, recognize she may be missing getting emotional support and happiness from friends. Maybe there are times when she has chances to do things with other women and you can be more aware of jumping in to help with the kids, etc.
She does not have close girlfriends. She has had difficulty maintaining friendships with other women and I know she does feel badly about that -- funny you guessed. When she does go out with friends I am very supportive with the kids. I truly do try to encourage her to go out and have fun because I want to see her happy! This has obviously backfired on me as she had some bar night hookups on women's weekends in the past, so now it makes me more anxious, but I still encourage her to get out.
-I'm somewhat insecure underneath a very successful career and life. I've always had a few issues with my body (which my husband thought was insane) and it bothered me when he touched me in certain places or in certain ways. I'd find subtle ways to tell your wife how beautiful and attractive she is.
Agreed, although it makes my wife crazy when I compliment her looks. She has a HUGE chip on her shoulder about being appreciated for her looks alone. This morning I told her how good she looked and she shut me down hard. I was thinking "I've been with you for 17 years, we have 3 kids together, and I stayed with you after you cheated on me multiple times -- would I go through that on the basis of looks alone?" -- obviously I didn't say that. I don't know how to be subtle enough not to set her off.
-Does your wife ever have orgasms? I didn't (through several boyfriends) until I was "on a break" before I met my husband. I focused on seeing if I could bring myself to orgasm...for me, it works well to read erotic stories. I also kind of like porn and get turned on by it. I usually have to bring myself to orgasm when I'm with my husband...but he can get me there sometimes. I don't think it's the end all be all to ML, but if she's never had one or doesn't have them in front of you, I would bet it bothers your wife a lot. I knew I was one of just a couple of my friends who wasn't having orgasms in college and it bugged me. I think those bad feelings then flared up more in my marriage when my H said I was LD and he felt I "just wasn't a sexual person".
Right again, she does not have orgasms. She told me she never has with a man and I believe her. She says she can have them when she masturbates, but she only does that about 4 times per year. She claims it does not bother her at all -- not even on her radar. Even talking about sex with her makes her upset. I have asked her multiple times to tell me what feels good, how she likes to be touched, how to make it better for her, etc. She will not say a thing. She gets angry that I ask. That's why I have no chance of getting her to a sex therapist, she's not interested in changing this aspect of herself at all.
-It's great you are putting things back together and I'm not sure how you try to weave in more counseling...but I wonder if your wife would benefit from seeing a sex therapist. Our MC is also a sex therapist and he had me fill out a questionnaire for him on my sexual history. The power of that was that I filled it out and wondered if my answers would highlight how I am "not a sexual person". Nope, our therapist told me I seemed very normal. For some reason, this was very freeing for me to learn. If we can get back to MC, I'm excited to see what he can do to help us.
No chance. I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" which is all about how great married sex can be, how it parallels and reinforces the health of your marriage overall, etc. It's very frustrating that my W is not interested in going down this path with me. She read "The Sex Starved Marriage" for me and has agreed to increase frequency, but she makes it clear that she's doing it "for me" versus with me. When I told her I enjoyed it she says "I'm glad you liked it" versus ever saying that she enjoyed it to, that anything about it was good for her etc. I'm not a selfish guy, I don't know why she's passive aggressive about it.
-I'm trying to survive my H's A right now. I think because I'm deep down so hurt and vulnerable...I'm more sexually charged than ever. (H has noticed this). He hasn't had sex with me in about 6 months and I really miss it. I'm not suggesting you have an affair (please don't!)...but it sounds like you and your wife were starting to establish a routine that somewhat worked for her. I wonder if you could work with a counselor to come up with a way for you to tell her you need more and how serious you are. Also, try to take some of the pressure off like SSM recommends.
Yes, I have tried taking the pressure off. We were doing well for a while but now she's starting to space things out again and is more and more dis-engaging. She won't kiss me as much, no passion, etc. I'm getting to the point where I'm going to insist on counseling. The problem is that whenever I indicate any dissatisfaction with anything she really beats herself up and makes me feel terrible.
-I think the more you can encourage your wife to find herself and do things for her...hopefully she can be happier and build self esteem. I know being a mom can be a sex drive zapper...looks like you guys are in the thick of it like we are.
Not sure if any of this helps, honestly, if my H and I try to reconcile, I think he'll struggle with some of the same things you are. I wouldn't be surprised if we go through low points where I am not feeling good about myself again. I do think going through the "crap" we are going through makes one more open and maybe your wife will eventually be willing to open up and lose more control.
Hang in there!
Thank you so much Nblost. I'm really at a loss for how to go forward with some of this. I realize I cannot change my wife, and that most of this is out of my control. At the same time, I've made so many changes in my approach to the marriage, it would be great to see a little effort on the other side. I really think she'd be a happier person overall if she would engage with me, but so far, she's unwilling.
Any other insight or suggestions would be most welcome! I'm willing to do whatever it takes.
Accuray
Hmm, she sounds challenging. It sounds like she could use her own counseling to work through some of these issues. Honestly, it took my H's affair to get me in for counseling (although I did the sex therapist before I found out about the A)
It seems odd she is having affairs if she is so non-sexual. Have you asked what she gets out of these EAs or what she likes about herself in the EAs? I'm not sure if you guys are still discussing or if that would be opening old wounds. I guess I am pretty much living in the wound right now!
I would like you to find a way to make yourself more attractive/mysterious to your wife. Although, not sure if she would take the bait. I just wonder if she has any competitiveness in her if she thought she was at risk of losing you. If you are just starting to piece things together, probably a bad time to rock the boat.
I did like how SSM tried to suggest tying a happy sex life to things your wife values like the kids.
Also, at one point my H had a pile of sex books and it intimidated me...I felt like there was more to our problems than just sex.
Yes Nblost, she is challenging! She could definitely use her own counseling, she was going to an IC to help her to decide whether or not to divorce me. When the bomb dropped, she recommended that I just go to the same IC. The IC was shocked (!) that W was not coming back as she felt she had so much to work on.
It seems odd she is having affairs if she is so non-sexual. Have you asked what she gets out of these EAs or what she likes about herself in the EAs? I'm not sure if you guys are still discussing or if that would be opening old wounds. I guess I am pretty much living in the wound right now!
I'm not sure she's so non-sexual, from my reading LD is usually not caused by one factor even if that factor seems to fit. It's a mix of things including how she feels about herself, how she feels about me, the relationship, the kids, etc.
IC told me that she has real self-esteem issues and being pursued makes her feel better. I'm a bit confused by her "one night" bar night hookups. She writes that off to too much to drink, but come on, I don't buy that. She claims she had the wherewithal to prevent it from going to ML, but was drunk enough to kiss? I don't know.
What she got out of the EA was I believe connection, initally being pursued, and then the thrill of pursuing. At the time I believe she was convinced that OM was more compatible with her. I think she felt less competitive with him. She liked that he had no expectations. She said that it did not go PA because she didn't want it to, but from what I read when I was snooping, she was pushing it that way and OM got cold feet because his first priority was his W (he was cake eating).
I would like you to find a way to make yourself more attractive/mysterious to your wife. Although, not sure if she would take the bait. I just wonder if she has any competitiveness in her if she thought she was at risk of losing you. If you are just starting to piece things together, probably a bad time to rock the boat.
Good call! I wonder about this every day. Both my IC's recommended pulling back and being less affectionate / less expressive. Michelle says that a relationship is like a teeter-totter, when one gives more the other gives less. I get that, and I can do it.
Here's what I'm having the challenge with -- when I pull back, she freaks out. She will break down in a crying fit and say she's not able to meet my needs. She tells me I'm unlucky to be with her, etc. Instead of pursuing and feeling good about it, she doesn't pursue and instead just breaks down.
At that point I feel like I need to reassure her and build her back up, tell her everything is ok. If I was asking for something I get to the point where I tell her I can do without.
She has hairtrigger feelings of inadequacy, so pulling back has not worked.
The only other thing I can do is let her break down and NOT pick her back up, just say "I'm sorry you feel that way, but you're not meeting my needs" or something similar and let her deal with it. I'm afraid she'll withdraw and get angry / passive aggressive instead of stepping up. She's done that in the past.
She really seems like she'll do about *anything* to avoid stepping up. She's stubborn as hell, and it's almost just knowing I would like something is enough to make her not do it.
I really don't know how to negotiate this at all. I suppose if things continue as they are I'll eventually have "the conversation" with her, and at that point I guess I'll need to be ready to go if she doesn't step up. I don't know what else to do.
What tears at me is reading "Passionate Marriage" which really espouses the ability to "self-soothe" and not rely upon your partner for your emotional well-being. It says that relying on your partner for a "reflected sense of self" is destructive to your marriage, so the other thing I wrestle with is if I just need to back off, take what I get and be happy with it. I'm just not sure how to get there either.
I did like how SSM tried to suggest tying a happy sex life to things your wife values like the kids.
Don't remember this, remind me!
Also, at one point my H had a pile of sex books and it intimidated me...I felt like there was more to our problems than just sex.
Definitely, ironically sex is the area she HAS stepped up in terms of frequency, but like I say, she's dialing it back down again.
I have tried everything in terms of technique, toys, etc. to no avail. I eventually realized that was not the way to make things improve.
Accuray
I looked in SSM (have it on Kindle) and couldn't find it...but I thought there was an example in there about a H whose wife wasn't into improving their marriage/sex life. He created a link between their marriage being happy and their kids being happy. That made the wife more motivated to work on things. Maybe it's in one of my other advice books.
I wonder if you should try letting your wife break down when you tell her your needs aren't being met and not comfort her. It may be worth a try before you get to the point where you are having a last ultimatum conversation or are tempted by an affair. Maybe she needs to see you are more serious and she'll look into more counseling or try harder. (I can see though if you are just starting to reconcile, that may feel too risky and so maybe you still wait awhile)
I do think the more you can work on being happy yourself, you'll be more attractive to your W and you may also be less needy. I'm not sure how much GAL-ing you did prior to reconciling...but was there something you were doing more of back when your wife was trying harder and decided to reconcile?
Honestly, I'm happy for you that she is staying with you for now...you have a good chance. You are miles ahead of me!
I can see toys/techniques not working...for me, I enjoyed some of that, but some of the suggestions by my H kind of felt like the sex books...too much pressure and too focused on just the sex part of our relationship. In hindsight, a big error on my part...but I think we both share the blame for not communicating well.
Hang in there!
Also, just read a bit more about your sitch...it is too bad you didn't find a MC you liked and that your W would go to with you. I would think having a MC guide you through the healing process and work through issues would be helpful.
Thanks Nblost, I can't tell you how helpful this is:
I wonder if you should try letting your wife break down when you tell her your needs aren't being met and not comfort her. It may be worth a try before you get to the point where you are having a last ultimatum conversation or are tempted by an affair. Maybe she needs to see you are more serious and she'll look into more counseling or try harder. (I can see though if you are just starting to reconcile, that may feel too risky and so maybe you still wait awhile)
I will try this next time. It's going to be hard for me because I am so driven to provide happiness. I agree, this is better than letting it get to ultimatum. I'm always the one to apologize first, maybe I should try not doing that.
I don't believe I would ever be tempted by an affair, I'm not wired that way, I couldn't live with myself. I don't give out an "available" vibe, and if something starts going towards the line I shut it down. I really don't see that it would solve any problems for me, it would just contribute more.
I do think the more you can work on being happy yourself, you'll be more attractive to your W and you may also be less needy. I'm not sure how much GAL-ing you did prior to reconciling...but was there something you were doing more of back when your wife was trying harder and decided to reconcile?
Yes, I am generally happy, but I'm too influenced by my wife's mood swings. If I wake up happy and come downstairs and she's yelling at the kids and there is a black cloud over her head, then I feel badly all day too. That's my issue to work on. I have to let that roll off me.
GAL is interesting in my case, my wife's main complaint historically was that I would GAL too much. I had tons of hobbies and interests. Part of reconciling was jettisoning 95% of that and focusing on quality time with W. I think initially she really appreciated the change, but now it's perhaps feeling more routine and therefore less appreciated.
I think W also felt she wanted more connection and intimacy, but now that she's getting it, she doesn't want as much as she thought she did. I think there is some of "be careful what you wish for" going on too.
Historically I would go out and do all kinds of activities, either alone, with friends, or with the kids. Coming back happy didn't really lift W's mood at all, she'd get passive aggressive about it. I remember many times taking the kids camping or skiing for the weekend when W refused to go and coming home with a car loaded with gear, suitcases etc. I would walk in the house and W would be watching TV or talking on the phone and wouldn't move as I unloaded and put away for 45 minutes, started the kids' laundry, etc. Passive aggressive! In my situation I felt like I needed to anti-GAL.
W doesn't seem to get intrigued when I get more mysterious, she just gets either withdrawn or passive aggressive.
It is too bad you didn't find a MC you liked and that your W would go to with you. I would think having a MC guide you through the healing process and work through issues would be helpful.
Yes, I would *really* like to go back to MC, particularly someone with sex therapy training. How do people find a good MC? It's not really a Google or yellow pages type of thing, I'm not sure how to find a good one trained in DB type philosophy.
Accuray
Quick journal: I've been feeling good lately, doing well on my own terms.
We had family in for the holidays so had house guests Tuesday through Sunday afternoon. Haven't ML since last Friday -- W knows I would prefer twice per week and agreed to average once per week. Family pulled out of town, spent some quality time with W last night, went to bed together early, kids asleep, perfect timing right? Nothing happened. Historically this would make me really disappointed / passive aggressive. Fell asleep last night no problem, woke up this morning with a smile, hugged W and went to work. Very happy not to be stewing on it all day. Just let it go...
Accuray
Had "the talk" with W last night. She knows I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" and asked what it's made me think about. I told her the book points out the parallels between a great sex life and a great marriage, and how the two reinforce each other. How being able to have great sex requires a great deal of personal growth, we need to be able to be vulnerable, to see and be seen by our partner, etc. I believe there is great potential in married sex if the partners make it a goal to achieve it.
I explained that her disengagement during ML and her lack of desire is an issue for me, and has been for a long time. If both our sex life and by extension our marriage could be better, why isn't that a goal worth pursuing?
W said it doesn't bother her, that she doesn't need sex and never has. She said that expecting her to want sex is like expecting me to want to eat brussel sprouts because other people think they are good.
She said that her sex drive is non-existant, and that the lack of it is not an issue for her. She said that as the LD partner, she is stepping up the frequency, she wants me to be happy, and that things could be a lot worse.
I said that I didn't believe her sex drive is non-existant, that she told me she masturbates, and with no sex drive she wouldn't need to do that. She said that she does it so infrequently and just believes it's part of the human condition. She said that I seem to think that most women like sex, and she doesn't believe that's the case. She said that most of her friends do not, they just tolerate it.
She said that since we're ML more frequently, and since I seem to be satisfied when we do, why is it an issue? I told her that ML takes three forms, giving, receiving, and joining. I feel we have "receiving" down in spades, but that I'm missing the giving and joining, and those are important to me. That didn't get a response.
I left the conversation with the understanding that she views this as my issue rather than our issue, that she's not going to work on this with me, and that I need to take it or leave it.
So here's the thing, I know from talking to my friends that many many people do not have great married sex. Like many other things in marriage, there are compromises involved. I realize that if I were to pursue a different relationship, I may end up in the same place or worse.
That said, I love this woman, I feel there is greater potential there to be realized, and that we've done so much work to restore our marriage, why stop now? Why settle when we don't have to?
Am I being naive / crazy / selfish? Someone talk some sense into me here.
Accuray
This is a problem: you are making her pleasure, her engagement ALL ABOUT YOU. This does not give her space to simply experience pleasure or choose to engage simply because she wants to. Instead, it is all about you. If she enjoys sex, it becomes about you receiving what you need. If she engages, it becomes about you receiving what you need. Your sexual neediness right now is the most powerful anti-aphrodisiac on the planet for her.
W is resentful as hell. Her sexual needs are not being met, have not been met, she sees no way they will be met. And now you are demanding that you receive MORE from her. Can you see that??? Years of resentment lead to zero libido. She's sexually flattened, smashed. And now you are trying to mold her to be what YOU want even more. Of course she will find that repellant.
This is a horrible, painful, difficult spot for you both. W can't express what she needs sexually. So, what she really wants is probably something she feels she shouldn't, either because she's a mother, or a strong independent woman, or not a slut, or whatever. That is, to be very clear, she probably wants what she considers some combination of dirty/kinky/objectifying/subordinating sex. Seriously. I say this as a woman who was trapped in a SSM that ended in D. And, I still believe there is no way XH could have been the lover I wanted/needed in my life. But the ONLY time I felt the sexual spark return was at bomb time, because only then was I really free to see/feel that I wanted sex without the resentment.
I would sincerely suggest that you try some kinky sex with power games (this does not require pain or harm), tease W for at least half an hour, control her, get a decent sex toy like Dr. Ruth's eroscillator and use it on her. Be firm and loving, direct her, blindfold her, tell her to stay still, tell her you will keep her safe but you know what she needs. Of course you should respect her wishes if she does not want to play. But, this will NOT work if you try to get her buy-in ahead of time. That just makes it all about you again. The idea is to (1) take away the responsibility she feels to "perform" for you and (2) to take away her inhibition about enjoying what she really desires sexually by you taking the responsibility for what is happening. DO her, and only her. Give her a great experience. Tell her she did a good job and you'll be back later to take care of yourself.
I hope that makes sense. You will know soon enough if she wants to comply or not. If not, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT. She wants something that she CANNOT communicate right now. Forget whether that is fair or what that means about her defects. She CANNOT tell you what she wants. If you want a hot sex life, discover it through trial and error. Push her boundaries. It has to be ABOUT HER. Be her sexual leader and mentor, in a smart way.
The only other option I know of is to drop the D Bomb and mean it. She'll probably come around for awhile then, but until you fix the underlying problem of being stuck in an unrewarding and therefore resented sex life, things will never change long term.
I didn't go back through your whole history but based just on what she's saying in your latest post, I could also read that as an expression of resentment/control/punishment. She's withholding her own potential enjoyment of sex and that's a way of putting you in your place. You could take that to the point of D if it is really that important to you.
For me, I would give up on having a super-fulfilling sex life if I had all the other good things about my marriage and family. I rate it lower on the priority scale. It would be nice to have it all AND a great sex life but I'm not driven to achieve that. I've been very happy with a B+ sex life and a fantastic rest of my life. What's driving your quest for more?
Your drive to have it all AND a great sex life with a woman who feels sure she cannot and will not provide it for you. What's that about?
Can you be OK with just this better-than-before sex life?
Why are you hitting her over the head with her failings in Giving and Joining if her Receiving is going well? And by the way, she IS giving in her way. She's doing something with you and for you simply because it's important to you and makes you feel good...how much more giving can you get? And, ok I haven't read the book, but isn't the act itself Joining you? Your quest for perfection is a put-down of everything she's brought to the table so far.
You've got a wife who is willing to do something to make you happy. Let her know it made you happy. You've been successful with setting a weekly/twice-weekly goal that she's willing to try for, and that's good. I would have thought prescribing the number of times would be too much pressure but if she's OK with it then why not formalize it a big more, like Wednesdays are for you and any other day is her call. That way you don't create the pressure of "it's Friday and it hasn't happened yet, when's it going to happen?"
I can recall feeling sometimes like oh boy he's expecting it, I've got to do it tonight. And then feeling great relief when something came up and we didn't so I could blame it on something external and not have failed him. I just wasn't in the mood, and I resented that he wasn't willing to do what it took to get me in the mood (a few compliments, no pressure, a hug or nice touch during the day, not watching tv until 11pm). So for me, that once or twice a week goal without a specific date I could and should count on would have created that feeling of dread and necessity, and then failure if it didn't end up happening. I don't know if this helps because her head could be in a totally different place than mine.
I'll come back to the fact that you have a square peg you're trying to pound into a round hole, and if you can't live on the sex she's offering now, and it's more important than the rest of the life you built together, move on. If it's enough, then stop trying to force her to like it more - take what she's offering and take your pleasure from it. You can try things here and there just for fun, but stop thinking of it as for her own good. Respect her view of her own good, which is she's just fine without sex.
Oldtimer, you've got an interesting plan there and I'm sure there are some women so trusting and safe that they'd enjoy that. Me, even with my own H, I wouldn't make it 30 seconds into your scenario. I would need it to be scaled waaaaaaay back. I've heard that most people have kinky fantasies they would not want to play out in real life - they just enjoy them as fantasies. Count me in that camp. I've used the subordination/kinky thing many times in my head but I would probably slug anyone who actually tried it. Anyone who's had molestation in their past would likely respond VERY negatively to such overt control. I on the other hand would enjoy it if my H looked through a catalog with me to pick out some things he thinks would look pretty on me, to see if he could buy them for me, things we'd agree on together. Or a catalog of very low-key entry-level toys, or a slumber parties type website. To each his own but you've got to work with the comfort level of the person you're with.
Accuray, I think you're doing great and have a lot of hope for you. Cherish what you have and you'll seem less needy. Go for small increments toward your goal. Recognize her willingness and interest as a VERY big compromise for someone who couldn't care less about sex.
you are making her pleasure, her engagement ALL ABOUT YOU
Oh yeah Oldtimer I totally agree with this.
Advina,
Of course it is reasonable to want a loving vibrant passionate sex life. It is a wonderful thing to have in one's M. No one wants to be married to a sibling.
And no, not everyone who has been raped or molested would find power/control games problematic. I think you imagine something happening without genuine consent. THAT would be unacceptable in any circumstances and would definitely be traumatizing to a sexual abuse survivor. Absolutely. But that is not at all what I suggested. More like, "Here's a sexy blindfold, put in on, oh that looks nice, lie down and relax...Is that OK? Tell me if it isn't..." "OK, now we're going to try...." No REAL coercion or force. Encouragement, direction, letting someone else manage/control the experience so that you can actually be *present* and focused on yourself rather than trying to be what H wants, "act" properly, get to the end of the sex which ends in H's O as efficiently as possible while gritting teeth, counting, making shopping lists, etc... The idea is to take the responsibility for the success of the sexual encounter out of your hands so that it really CAN be about you. So, it is not genuine control or coercion AT ALL. It is freely choosing to let go and let yourself be vulnerable and present. For many woman, because we are raised to make sex be all about the man, unless we are given the space NOT to have to perform in various ways for the man and NOT to be responsible for making sure the man Os, it is almost impossible to be sexually present. This can become even MORE true with a history of sexual abuse. Anyway, that is what is going on there. But of course, that dynamic won't work for everyone. That's why I said to try it. He should be able to tell easily if it is working for his W or if she is repelled.
Look, I really, really understand your pain. You seem stuck in that very resentful place. It is a horrible hopeless place to be. I hurt for you.
What are you doing to get out of it? Have you told H you'd like him to buy you something sexy and try some sex toys? I'm not sure what you mean by entry-level toys. The best thing you can do is get excellent sex toys that will actually work. A tiny little buzzing vibrator like comes with lube in the grocery stores now probably won't do much. You want changes in your SL to be successful.
Also, what would you do if H actually tried any of these things? What would happen if he had a VS catalog and asked you to look at it with him? How would you react? Would you be enthusiastic or would you be reluctant? Would you feel as though you'd have to not do it or as though you should disapprove? What would it be like? How would you react if H asked you to go to a sex shop with him?
you are making her pleasure, her engagement ALL ABOUT YOU
Oh yeah Oldtimer I totally agree with this.
Yep, that's why this is such a horrible place to be stuck. Of COURSE a healthy sex life should include giving, receiving, and joining. OF COURSE, it is reasonable to want these things. OF COURSE it hurts when some of them are missing. But chasing them often seems to get in the way of them even becoming possible.
It is sooooo sad and sooooo painful. It [censored].
Thanks Oldtimer,
I agree this place we're in is ALL ABOUT ME. She would be content if we connect through talking, have fun together, parent together and don't have sex. That would be a completely satisfying relationship for her in her view, and I believe it.
I'm not ok with that, however, so since I'm the one that wants a good sex life, how can it not be all about me? If I leave it to her, it won't happen, right? Help me understand the options you see here. I "tested" letting it go, taking away the requests and letting her set the tone and the result was no sex for over a year and she didn't notice. I could certainly argue that the relationship wasn't healthy overall during that period, so if I give up again and try to kill my sex drive things might be different, but I doubt it.
I have tried taking control in the past, tying her up, introducing toys as you suggest. The reaction from her has either been passive aggressive anger, outright anger, or abject surrender to the point that she's not even there -- completely unresponsive. In other cases, she'll start hitting herself until I stop. You could argue that I'm doing the wrong things, that I'm a clumsy lover, selfish, whatever, but I don't believe that. I'm willing to do whatever it takes -- but with no feedback and no guidance I'm sure to make mistakes. I've had long term relationships before getting married and this was never an issue. The things that all my other girlfriends really liked she seems to hate. (I would never tell her "but everyone else likes it!") I'm a giver by nature, and I know I'm not that bad technique-wise.
There is a long list of ways in which she will not allow herself to be touched, and she's constantly on-guard thinking that I might do those things even though I don't. She'll get tense and become rigid if she even thinks I'm moving in a direction that she won't like. Bottom line, I don't think grabbing the reins here is the answer, but I'm open to additional opinions.
But the ONLY time I felt the sexual spark return was at bomb time, because only then was I really free to see/feel that I wanted sex without the resentment.
Tell me more about this. Was the resentment yours, his, or both? What was the root of the resentment? How did you eliminate the resentment in your subsequent relationships?
You will know soon enough if she wants to comply or not. If not, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
If she does not want to comply with being subordinate, what else do you recommend I try? She won't tell me what she likes, and there is a long list of things she does not like that I have discovered through trial and error.
She wants something that she CANNOT communicate right now.
According to her, she does *not* want something she cannot communicate. She says she has never enjoyed sex with any partner. I have thought like you -- that she DOES have a sex drive and wants something that she cannot articulate. That if I can discover what it is through trial and error, I will open the door for her to great things -- believe me, I have tried over the course of 17 years to discover what that might be and I have failed.
She claimed her EA's and bar night hookups did not go PA, because she doesn't want sex. If it was "sex with me" that was the problem, those opportunities would have given her the opportunity to pursue the resentment-free sex right? She was totally checked out of the marriage, so if she wanted it, she could have had it -- it certainly wasn't our relationship that held her back.
The issue I see with your advice is the "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" dilemma. If she doesn't WANT to enjoy sex, then nothing I do is going to help right?
She is saying that our assumption, that everyone wants sex, is flawed. She is completely at peace with being low desire, and doesn't view it as detracting from her happiness. Her low desire is an issue FOR ME. I fully acknowledge that this is all about me, but if I'm not happy, then the marriage will suffer right?
Thanks,
Accuray
OK, try something different -- Has she read For Yourself? There is also For Each Other.
Another thing to try is Tantric Sex with is NOT O-focused. I had a book that started just with breathing exercises. I can't remember what it was. (I actually really tried in my XM to improve our SL, it just never went anywhere.) XH and I got through the first few chapters, but I got tired of pushing and wanted him to get us through the work. I didn't want the burden of guiding us through it, if that makes sense.
Anyway, it was a pretty non-threatening, loving book that I THOUGHT would help us because it takes away all the O-pressure and puts women out of the standard man-pleasing role that I think it is hard for men to grasp.
Re the resentment -- it was mine. Sex becomes incredibly tedious and burdensome when one is not finding it rewarding. I really resented that and resented not having a great sex life and resented not having a chance for one as far as I could see. Resented the hell out of it. I remember feeling genuine rage hearing a couple in a neighboring room have sex because of my own resentment, emptiness and anger. Horrible place.
P.S. what sex toys did you try? And, as long as what you are doing is about you and your needs, she probably WILL check out, disassociate, and there isn't much you can do about it. She can't enjoy sex if she isn't present. Horrible place. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck.
Anyway, the Tantric Sex stuff is very focused on staying present.
Adinva,
Thank you again, you really speak to me. I really think that you have a lot in common with my W, but you are able to articulate for me what she cannot, and your perspective helps me to understand her.
For me, I would give up on having a super-fulfilling sex life if I had all the other good things about my marriage and family. I rate it lower on the priority scale. It would be nice to have it all AND a great sex life but I'm not driven to achieve that. I've been very happy with a B+ sex life and a fantastic rest of my life. What's driving your quest for more?
Your drive to have it all AND a great sex life with a woman who feels sure she cannot and will not provide it for you. What's that about?
Good question! Before the bomb, I was 100% resigned to accepting what I was getting and did not question it.
After the bomb, my world was turned upside down. I had to question everything about my approach to the relationship. I read a complete library of relationship books, sought IC, did DB telephone coaching, etc.
This learning experience was eye-opening. It showed me that we do not have to "settle for mediocre", and in fact the minute we do, we are starting a slowly rotating downward spiral.
I had to work very hard to get W back to the table and re-engaged -- my 180's are very real and painfully gained. We have the "B" marriage now -- why should I be happy with that?
If I'm going to go through the gut-wrenching pain, why not come out with the "A" marriage?
Does that make sense? I acknowledge it's part of my personality too, I'm a driver.
Can you be OK with just this better-than-before sex life?
I don't know. I'm afraid it will start to lead to small resentments, and when it does, it will start a negative cycle. That's starting to happen already. If I knew how to kill my sex drive I would, as that would be the other solution.
Why are you hitting her over the head with her failings in Giving and Joining if her Receiving is going well? And by the way, she IS giving in her way. She's doing something with you and for you simply because it's important to you and makes you feel good...how much more giving can you get? And, ok I haven't read the book, but isn't the act itself Joining you? Your quest for perfection is a put-down of everything she's brought to the table so far.
Point taken, I need to grow up. I see how my attitude is hurtful. The dilemma is that I need to settle for what I'm getting and feel good about it, and the "feel good about it" is the part I'm having a problem with. I will talk to my IC about that this week and see if she has any advice.
You've got a wife who is willing to do something to make you happy. Let her know it made you happy. You've been successful with setting a weekly/twice-weekly goal that she's willing to try for, and that's good. I would have thought prescribing the number of times would be too much pressure but if she's OK with it then why not formalize it a big more, like Wednesdays are for you and any other day is her call. That way you don't create the pressure of "it's Friday and it hasn't happened yet, when's it going to happen?"
I definitely do let her know it made me happy. Does this contribute pressure? Does this make her feel it's all about sex? I don't prescribe the number of times, I've just told her twice per week is the frequency I like. She was doing that initially, but has dropped down to once.
I'll come back to the fact that you have a square peg you're trying to pound into a round hole, and if you can't live on the sex she's offering now, and it's more important than the rest of the life you built together, move on.
If it's enough, then stop trying to force her to like it more - take what she's offering and take your pleasure from it. You can try things here and there just for fun, but stop thinking of it as for her own good. Respect her view of her own good, which is she's just fine without sex.
Solid advice. The "can I live with it" question is the one I'm wrestling with every day.
Accuray, I think you're doing great and have a lot of hope for you. Cherish what you have and you'll seem less needy. Go for small increments toward your goal. Recognize her willingness and interest as a VERY big compromise for someone who couldn't care less about sex.
Yep, thanks for talking some sense into me. I don't want to be "this guy". I don't want to be frustrated and set unreasonable expectations for W -- I love her. How do I not want more and be happy with what I have? The pushing for improvement is such a part of my personality -- it's good in many ways but definitely has bad side-effects too. I know that if I say I'm satisfied but don't really believe it I won't be happy. This is a tough one.
Accuray
I *really* disagree that you should settle for an M in which you aren't sexually fulfilled.
I hear you OT. My T told me that if I did the work and got our marriage back on track and H was interested in staying, I might be past the point where I want to stay. It may not be enough for me anymore. For me, in the middle of the ocean, I'm not thinking about whether the beach I arrive at has cold mojitos.
OldTimer,
Thanks again, her LL is quality time. I have been giving her that and she appreciates it.
She has not read any of those books. She did read SSM for me when we started piecing and took that to heart. I asked her to read DB once we were on the road to recovery but she didn't get past the intro. I asked her to read the 5LL's. She read about half. I asked her to read "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It". She read the first chapter, and then started reading fiction and never came back to it. I'm not going to ask her to read anything else, she's not motivated to do it. When I ask her to and she doesn't, it triggers resentment and I don't want to go there anymore. PM will not speak to her.
I don't believe you were in the same place my W was. You wanted fulfilling sex and were not getting it. She doesn't want sex at all. That's quite different. I don't believe she resents me for having an unfulfilled sex life. She resents me when I don't spend QT with her, and when I set expectations that she can't comfortably meet. She doesn't want to find sex rewarding, she doesn't want sex at all.
The issue is not that I won't make sex rewarding for her -- I will. Given any opportunity I'll make it all about her. It's not about my O, that has not been the focus. I'm not a sexual trance guy, I'm a partner engagement guy (to use PM speak), and neither of us are interested in role play.
In terms of toys, I tried a variety of vibrators, vibrating rings, non-vibrating toys etc. She was very passive aggressive about the whole thing. She really doesn't like vibrators, she said they are uncomfortable, and the noise they make really really bothers her. I asked her to show me how to use them in a way she would like after I determined that what I was doing wasn't working, but she wouldn't, she just said "do whatever you want".
I will read "For Each Other".
I told her last night that I will stop reading PM because it's introducing me to a place I'd like to go with our marriage where she does not want to go with me, so reading it is making things worse.
Accuray
Accuray, one of H's best friends is what I think of as an exceller. He's excellent at everything. He went to an Ivy League university, Wharton MBA, entrepreneur, sold his company, has so much money he spends it like water. Model-like good looks, dresses well, always with a beautiful woman. Works out like a fiend, great body. Runs triathlons. Travels. Reads Ayn Rand.
He married a gorgeous strong woman just like him, with an MBA, competitive body builder, just a perfect match for him.
They divorced after just a few years. We couldn't believe it. But she said no one made her feel worse about herself than being with him.
It's nice that your driven but your drive to excel can poison relationships if you feel everyone should want to be as excellent as you. And in the same ways as you.
This could be overstating, but your comment that what you were reading about passionate marriage makes you driven to have better, and your drive to have better puts your W in an automatic inferior and failing position. If that's happening, you need to learn to think differently.
I'd say, go for what's fun, what feels good. Have a good time. Enjoy her willingness. Ease up on the striving, just keep it in the background, in your own head and not keep trying to make it a mutual project where W's innermost being is the project. That can make someone feel really inadequate. And feeling inadequate not a good start to enjoying sex!
Once again, great advice -- so helpful!
Thanks Adinva, you are right
Funny too about the mojitos, I realize I'm evaluating the mojitos at this point. "If I had to do a 5 mile open ocean swim to reach this beach, the mojitos better be cold!"
Accuray
Accuray, I hope you are hanging in there. Your comment on reading sex books reminded me of my H. About 5 years ago (when we should have been in counseling but weren't), he bought a big old stack of books about sex. Passionate Marriage, Sex Starved Marriage, Hot Sex, sex, sex, sex... He read parts of some of them and the whole time, it made me feel more and more inferior. I tried reading parts of them too, but I kept feeling like these books weren't necessarily getting at my issues. I think for me, I needed my H to be more romantic, plan things for us, spend time with me, etc. (I think one of my key LLs is quality time) So, I ordered some books on fixing our marriage and I think H's reaction was likely, "we don't need a bunch of fluff on how to talk...we need to have more/better sex and then I'll feel like talking"
In reality, Sex Starved Marriage was probably exactly the book we needed, but it got lost a bit in the shuffle and I reacted a bit negatively back then to the title...sadly, I thought because we were having sex...my H couldn't really be sex starved (I now know that is wrong).
I think we were both right in our own ways. I think our problem was...we each knew what we didn't like, but instead of finding a forward-looking solution--we just complained about the problem for awhile and then just thought the other person wasn't willing to change. We didn't proactively work on things, actively love the other person and treat them how they wanted to be loved.
Anyway, I totally get why you would be reading books on improving your sex life...but it may be coming across badly to your wife.
Here's a bad analogy. Let's say I'm a fabulous cook and I love making dinner every night. However, I really wish my husband would join me in the kitchen and help me. What do I do? I buy 10 fabulous cookbooks written by famous chefs and sit in bed reading them every night. Does this inspire my husband to feel like picking up one of the cookbooks? Probably not...I'm already great and now it seems like I'm even further ahead of him. Not exactly on point...but that's kind of how I felt when H was reading the books.
I really think the key is communication and that's probably best with counseling. I wish your wife would go.
I think that's great Nblost, I do appreciate your analogy and it's a good one. I wasn't really reading "sex books" per se, I've been reading relationship books. "Passionate Marriage" was really the first one that talked about how essential a good sex life is to a healthy marriage and that did make me see the potential and want to explore it. Based on the dynamics its creating, I have stopped reading it.
Last night was bad -- I had my IC appointment last night and came armed with the good feedback I've received here -- that I'm making it "all about me", that I'm unfairly putting pressure on my wife, that my expectations are too high, and that I need to learn to appreciate what I'm getting versus worrying about what I'm not.
My IC basically turned that on it's head. She said that my expectation for a good sex life is perfectly reasonable, and to want to be able to please my wife is not a need I should feel badly about, even if it is all about me. She said that the fact that my wife won't go there with me leaves a hole in our marriage that I'm trying to fill, and that it's ok.
She said that I am doing the things that most women love, lots of QT, positive attention. Connection during the day with IM and e-mail. Focusing on the two of us, acts of service, etc. She said that I am not making this all about sex, that I'm working on the marriage from all angles, and obviously trying to improve my approach to things, including going to therapy.
She encouraged me to talk to my wife about it again, and to suggest that I don't necessarily need her to have an O, but just tell me what I can do to make the experience better for her than it is now. She didn't feel like I am pressuring my wife or being unrealistic -- she said I'm just looking for something that is a reasonable expectation from any marriage.
I told her that my W has told me that she's not interested in making sex better -- it's not who she is, and even talking about it makes her upset. The IC said that's cr@p, everyone wants to enjoy sex, and if W wasn't able to admit that then there are other things going on, but that she can't help further without talking to W. We agreed that basically the only way through this is if W will agree to see a sex therapist with me.
Sitting there hearing all that, I felt validated, whereas walking in I felt like I was being unreasonable and unfair to W. When I told IC that I didn't think there was any way that W was going to agree to see a therapist of any kind, she said "then your only option is to suck it up, and I feel badly for you" (which is effectively the feedback I got here).
So last night W asked me what we discussed in therapy and I shared some of that. I told her that I acknowledged it was all about me, but that I would like it if we could find a way that W could take more pleasure from sex, so I wouldn't feel like I was always receiving / taking. I'd also like the opportunity to give.
W got very upset. She said she thinks I'd be happier with someone else, someone who was more affectionate, expressive, and sexual. She feels like I'm asking her to change and not accept who she is, despite the fact that SHE has accepted her darkness and her issues. I reassured her that I love her, talked about all the things I love about her, and all the things that we do well together and are so good about our marriage. Unfortunately this is the one issue that remains a source of unhappiness and I'd like to work with her to address it.
When talking to the IC, I told her that W never gives me any feedback about our sex life, she never tells me what she likes, she doesn't tell me what she doesn't like. She says "do what you want" and that makes me feel terrible, like I'm using her. When I tell her a particular episode was "good", she says "I'm glad you liked it". She never says she liked it too.
IC told me that this makes me feel undesired and unloved, and in the worst case abandoned, and that's why it's so hard for me.
W told me last night that telling me what she likes sexually makes her cry and feel badly about herself -- she said "is that what you want?"
I asked if she could tell me just one time -- that way I'll know and she won't have to discuss it again, but it would make things better forever. She said that if she tells me she will permanently feel worse about herself, that it will "diminish her". Then, she got angry and said "Let's go, let's do it now" in an angry tone. I told her no, that's not what I'm looking for. I'd like her to WANT to work on it with me, not to give in out of frustration and anger. (I was happy that I was able to turn that down in the moment, but it was so tempting to get some feedback! That just would have been the wrong way to get it.)
So we agreed last night that we're at an impass. If W works on enjoying sex more, she will feel worse about herself permanently, but if she doesn't I'll be perpetually unhappy. She kept saying she wants me to be happy, but that she accepts who she is, and she's not willing to work on this. I told her that the cost for her of addressing it seems to be higher than the cost to me of coping, so I won't bring it up again. I hugged her after that and told her that as long as we love each other, and have so many good things in our marriage, we'll find a way through and it will work out, but we both clearly felt badly and had a hard time getting to sleep.
So that's where I am. It's frustrating to me that W is so quick to suggest I should be with someone else. Since she was a WAS, it triggers me that she really wants out of this marriage but doesn't want to be the one to pull the trigger, so she's trying to push me to walk away on my own. Most times I really don't believe that, but when she suggests that she can't make me happy I get triggered.
So time to work on sucking it up and getting happy being a "taker" which is so not who I am.
Thoughts?
Accuray,
You are being SO reasonable and caring. I'm really concerned about your W...I think she really needs help. It sounds like she has some major insecurities or something else going on.
Now, when my H had complained to me about sex and expressed what I thought were unreasonable demands...I lashed out and told him to go find someone who could make him happy (gee, I wonder why he's now in an A? :-( ) Just typing this paragraph puts tears in my eyes.
However, I didn't mean it...I just felt so inadequate and like no matter how hard I tried...I would fail him. It wasn't about him, it was more about me and more about our inability to move forward and find a happy medium.
In the end, I do think you deserve to be happy and have someone who will at least try to meet you halfway. If your wife truly can't do that, you'll end up living a life that's probably not going to satisfy you. I doubt my H would have said he'd have an A either...but you may eventually find yourself in a situation where you have that opportunity and you may not be able to resist. I wish my H had forced the sex issue earlier rather than not addressing it and falling into an A which is now so much more damaging.
Anyway, you are doing the right thing by getting counseling and I think your counselor is right on in her advice. I also don't think you should be afraid to stand up to your wife and eventually, you may need to give her an ultimatum around getting help or communicating with you or you can't be in this marriage.
Truly, you are learning a ton about relationships and about yourself. I hope your wife will eventually see that.
Thanks Nblost, I agree my W needs help -- but she's not willing to do it and I can't make her. She told me she's not worth the therapist's time. That drives me crazy because she's so successful at her job, she's a great mother, and she has so much good going on.
There is no way I would have an A, just won't happen. Having been on the other side of it, I *know* how damaging it is. Even without that knowledge I wouldn't do it -- that's not who I am. An A usually starts with an overture that is just slightly over the line, a comment that can be taken either way. It's up to the receiving party to then indicate they are willing to escalate. I always shut that down. I don't let it go to the next step. I love my wife, and I am committed to my family.
I did stand up to my wife last night -- the impact is that a person who already feels badly about herself now feels worse, and like more of a failure. Normally as soon as things head south I give up on my request and start reassuring her. Last night I held my ground. She told me she WILL communicate with me if I want, but that she will be permanently diminished as a result, and I don't want to be responsible for that. She's letting me know in advance that she will resent me for it. I started going into reassurance mode this morning, so I'm going to pave it over.
I don't think the ultimatum is the way to go -- I've already put my feelings on the line and have gotten my answer.
Therefore my choices are to walk or to cope, and for right now, I guess I work on cope. It's so frustrating that "I want you to enjoy sex more" makes me the bad guy. I understand that it's all about me, and I understand that I am projecting what I think is best for my W versus listening to her tell me she doesn't want to enjoy sex. That's just not a message I can accept -- and that's my issue. I think I could understand much better if I were demanding that she get into bondage with me, or engage in a 3-way, or something like that where it would clearly have nothing to do with her. In this case, I'm saying "this is great, it's a great feeling, I want you to share it" and that makes me selfish.
Aaarrrrgghhhh
Accuray
Accuray....Feeling you brother. Definitely feeling you.
I see you do seem to focus a lot on your interactions with your wife. How those interactions may lead to pressure...wittingly or unwittingly is a tough path to walk. I think for the most part you are doing pretty good.
I ask for a minute that you switch thinking gears for a second and never bring what I talk about up to your wife...NEVER....because it really isn't your burden to bring up or carry. What do you know about your wife's sexual history prior to you? It seems that she has surrounded sex with a magnitude of negative emotions. To the point that just talking about sex seems to have a very negative impact on her. Way beyond what seems normal to me. I expect the negativity, but I just keep feeling it is excessive.
Case in point is my wife. She knowingly at this point has used sex as a tool for power and manipulation. She was aware of this, but only after a lot of direct scrutiny did she start recalling why she does. In therapy she revealed that the boy she lost her virginity to left her the day afterwards. This hurt her immensely...but even worse created in her subconscious a thought of "I will hurt you before you hurt me" mentality (her father leaving when she was 12 added to the situation). She went so far in her youth as to date the boy's best friend and then eventually marry a guy he was living with. The therapist reasoned that all of that was to get back at the boy. Of course the shock waves of that can still be felt today.
One of the things I have learned through my wife's MLC, and others on here, is that the ghosts of the past sometimes really do affect today. We have no control of them, but they are there...lurking...hiding.
Once again...Don't ask your wife about her past. It will makes things very ugly....just a thing to think about.
Thanks Lostforwords -- too late! We've mutually discussed our prior sexual history over the course of our marriage. My DB Coach and both the IC's said that it sounds like she was the victim of some type of sexual trauma like molestation, but I really don't believe that to be the case.
What she has told me is this: she had sex many times when she didn't want to. Not that it was forceful or rape, she would just have sex with people out of a sense of obligation because she felt she had set the expectation by flirting with them, going back to their place, whatever. I get the sense that she felt once she was on the path, it was more difficult for her to derail it than to just give in to it, and that put her in situations where she was having sex with people she really didn't want to have sex with.
I'm sure if those ended up being one night stands, that hurt her self esteem. By the time I met her, she was beyond that, successful in her job, and was coming out of a monogamous 4 year relationship where she had at one point wanted to marry the guy and he moved out. He subsequently proposed to her but she had moved on.
Here's where I come out -- we've been together for 17 years. During that time, I really have done my best to be supportive. I've never been critical of her at all, and I really don't ask or expect her to do anything for me other than to have sex with me on some regular basis.
Our marriage did become sex-starved which precipitated a negative cycle of me withdrawing and her feeling worse about the QT she wasn't getting. I was never mean, I just took the relationship for granted and decided to GAL because I wasn't getting my needs met at home. I decided to try to be happy in other ways. This made her increasingly passive aggressive and irritable. I would ask her how her day was and she would snap at me, which would make me retreat further. It came to a head when I discovered she had multiple EA's with co-workers and a couple bar night flings. At that point she demanded divorce and was done with me.
From that point I have DB'd, I've done everything I can to put things right in every way. My bottom line is that I think I have demonstrated that she can do the worst thing imaginable to me and I'll still be here for her. I stayed. If she can't trust me after all this time, and become intimate and vulnerable, how is she going to find happiness with anyone else?
I guess if she doesn't work this out with me, it's going to come back to bite her in any relationship she gets involved with going forward right? Is that the kind of life she wants? It's hard for me to accept that it's ok with her, but I can't control that.
Accuray
I've dropped in from time to time since mid-October to keep up. I've been pretty busy and just haven't taken the time to write.
Anyway....
She told me she's not worth the therapist's time.
That should tell you tons right there. So here is an interesting question for you (and her): If she's not worth the therapist's time, does she think she's worth yours (and/or the the time you are spending to save a marriage in addition to just having a marriage)? She can be pretty sure that YOU think she's worth the time and effort. But does she think she's worth YOUR effort?
If she answers "yes," then the next question is why, in the context of not being worth the therapist's time, is she worth yours?
And if you get a "yes" answer, the reason(s) has(have) to be something other than generalizations. If she all she gives you are reasons that could be applied to any other man or woman that she happened to share a household with, then she's just giving you an answer to stop the discussion (which sounds like what she has threatened you with).
That drives me crazy because she's so successful at her job, she's a great mother, and she has so much good going on.
I wish to dissuade you from this way of thinking because, quite simply, it is BS (to be very blunt). I know you love her and don't wish to speak badly of her. Successful people, men or women, DO NOT HAVE AFFAIRS WITH COWORKERS. Any supervisor conducting a performance review and evaluating the interactions and disruptions associated with an employee's behavior that overlooks an interoffice affair is doing your wife (and her coworkers) a huge disservice.
As for being a "good mother"...maybe if she were a single mother and you and everyone else was out of the scene and she was doing it all alone. But a good mother does not knowingly and intentionally shutout the children's father (you) from both sex (unless there is a specific and measurable medical condition that prevents sex) and communication (see below). She has willfully and knowingly been doing both. She may not have started out that way but once pointed out, it becomes a choice she is making.
There is no way I would have an A, just won't happen. Having been on the other side of it, I *know* how damaging it is.
A POV and an experience that you and I share. If you care about your marriage and you've been through the receiving end of the other person having an affair, you know the damage it causes for you. You'll presume this will be experienced in a similar way on the other end. There is no guarantee, of course, and she may "want" you to have an affair to end the marriage for cause.
She told me she WILL communicate with me if I want, but that she will be permanently diminished as a result, and I don't want to be responsible for that. She's letting me know in advance that she will resent me for it. I started going into reassurance mode this morning, so I'm going to pave it over.
I don't think the ultimatum is the way to go -- I've already put my feelings on the line and have gotten my answer.
You are the one that got an ultimatum that says, essentially..."don't communicate with me or require me to communicate with you or else I will be 'permanently diminished' (whatever that means) and I will resent you for that." And that's somehow your responsibility? I don't want to diminish the seriousness of this because its as if she has told you that she will commit suicide or sink the marriage if you talk about this or do something about this predicament.
Those are the words of someone trying to use your love and your love of the ideal of marriage as a hostage or to bully you in this relationship to avoid doing anything about a potential fatal blow to the marriage.
I know you don't wish to consider this and when you do, in passing, your view is that you are the one that has to walk away.
But here is a mental exercise for you: what would happen if after this recent ultimatum you've been served you just stop having sex with her. No announcement that you are going to do that, no drama about it, just stop. No more advances or suggestions on your part. Isn't that what she wants? Isn't her ideal of sexual fulfillment being nonsexual with you? Wouldn't you be fulfilling her wishes, her dreams and her vision as herself?
It would be up to you to choose what to do if she made the advance (and also up to you to choose to point out that, according to her, it is simply because its something that she agreed to do. Do you release her from that?).
And while you are at it, what if you stop talking to her about your lack of sex life. I know (and share) your idea of sex versus making love. Same thing, no announcement, no drama, just stop. And if asked, you could tell her that you are just giving her what she wanted and warned you about (about her permanent, as opposed to temporary diminishment and resentment).
How would that be any different than what you are facing once again? That's part one of the exercise.
Now here is the other part of the exercise. What if, say during the holidays, you told her that she has one month to find a new place to live and that you are willing to help her do that. And that if she didn't, she'd come home at the end of that time and find her stuff sitting on the curb? No tying it to any specific outcome. She was the one who had affairs, she was the one whom, upon discovery wanted a divorce. She is the one who wants things to remain the way they were before her affairs were discovered.
I know this is tough to think through, I've been through that once before with an ultimatum. And although I was willing to do almost anything to save the marriage, I ulimately moved her out. But it was not something I did without having done a great deal of thinking about and through before it finally happened.
Do you think that she'd be any less "permanently diminished" or resentful if the alternative you put in front of her was to seek other lving arrangements?
Its not walking away...its putting her out, particularly since you feel you've got your answer.
I'm not suggesting you do this, just think through the scenario.
The alternative, if she is ultimately unwilling to be sexual with you (which is what she has told you. She is *doing sex* for you, not because she feels she wants it to be part of the relationship or needs it to be part of the relationship.
You are now at the age I was when my current wife called the end to sex. More than 14 years later we aren't at each others throats and there is a level of comfort and predictability that I have with this woman sharing my house. Although there is caring, this is not the passionate marriage that I sought. And although in recent discussions she has indicated that she never really intended to have this marriage become nonsexual, she can offer no explanation why, if she thought that for more than 14 years and thinks that today, she has never attempted or made any advance in being sexual.
I don't know if I could actually have another marriage where it felt continually passionate. I know how a passionate marriage feels (at least on my end) and there is some evidence that there are people and marriages that meet or exceed that ideal. I was 43 the last time we were sexual together. At age 58 I miss the closeness that can develop through sex transcending to lovemaking.
That is what you face if you stick with it and she's not willing or able to be in the marriage with you.
More later
The Captain
I'm not suggesting you do this beyond a thought exercise.
....W got very upset. She said she thinks I'd be happier with someone else, someone who was more affectionate, expressive, and sexual.
....She feels like I'm asking her to change and not accept who she is, despite the fact that SHE has accepted her darkness and her issues.
...She said that if she tells me she will permanently feel worse about herself, that it will "diminish her". Then, she got angry and said "Let's go, let's do it now" in an angry tone.
...So we agreed last night that we're at an impass. If W works on enjoying sex more, she will feel worse about herself permanently, but if she doesn't I'll be perpetually unhappy. She kept saying she wants me to be happy, but that she accepts who she is, and she's not willing to work on this. I told her that the cost for her of addressing it seems to be higher than the cost to me of coping, so I won't bring it up again. I hugged her after that and told her that as long as we love each other, and have so many good things in our marriage, we'll find a way through and it will work out, but we both clearly felt badly and had a hard time getting to sleep.
...Thoughts?
Accuray;
I would like to share a few thoughts with you based on your post above.
First, I think that trying to save a marriage is important. However, just as it takes two to wreck a marriage, it takes two to save one.
In reading the above, I see your wife as afraid of change and as being comfortable with the way things are.
I read that you aren't comfortable with the way things are and want more out of your life.
One of the truths I believe in is GAL and improving oneself. You are working on making yourself better and happier. We should all try to make ourself better. We should all work on improving ourselves every day of our life.
Your wife is saying she doesn't want to change or have anything change in her life. Well, life isn't suppose to work that way. You should explain to your wife that you want to live life and that involves change, struggle and pushing yourself. You should tell her that you know that you can't force her to do anything or force her to change. However, in a similar way, she can't force you not to change. I would tell her that you intent to change and improve yourself and your life and you would like her to change with you and always be part of your life, but if she doesn't want to, then that is her decision.
I think that you statement to her that your coping is the right decision (is actually the wrong decision) and is selling yourself short. Your coping so she doesn't have to push herself will not allow you to reach your own real potential. That doesn't mean you should be going out and dumping your wife. I still think that working on trying to improve your R is important.
If I were in your shoes, I would ask her to go to the Therapist with you so that she can help you and understand the issues you are going through. Tell her that you want her support and want her to be by your side.
Good luck to you.
Captain,
First of all, I again wanted to thank you for how much you helped me when I was at my lowest. It truly was the worst and hardest thing I've gone through and your advice and perspective was invaluable. Thanks again for taking the time to weigh in.
If she's not worth the therapist's time, does she think she's worth yours (and/or the the time you are spending to save a marriage in addition to just having a marriage)? She can be pretty sure that YOU think she's worth the time and effort. But does she think she's worth YOUR effort?
She has told me several times that she thinks I'm "unlucky" to have her. This seems to be a rollercoaster however, as othertimes she seems plenty self-confident. I have discerned a behavior pattern that when challenged, she tends to either get belligerent (trivial matters) or fold and break down (emotional matters). I do appreciate your point as when she says things like that, it does imply that my time is also not valuable. I think she would answer that she is NOT worth my time, because that's the easier answer and requires no expectations for her to live up to. I think you've assumed she would answer differently.
With regard to your comments about the impacts of an affair on job success and parenthood, yes, I see your point and obviously I felt that way at my angriest. She has changed jobs, and at her new job she's a top 5% performer in a professional capacity, and she always operates at the level in terms of results. I would be surprised if her co-workers at her last job knew what was going on. WRT being a mother, I was mainly talking about her interactions with the kids -- our parenting styles are very aligned (other than having affairs), and I appreciate how she works with me to raise our children.
My problem here is that I have a hard time reconciling her low self-esteem with her personal achievements.
But a good mother does not knowingly and intentionally shutout the children's father (you) from both sex (unless there is a specific and measurable medical condition that prevents sex) and communication (see below).
I would go even farther and say that a good person does not knowingly enter into a marriage when they have no sex drive without disclosing this fact to their intended spouse.
That said, we were both historically guilty of withholding communication, and now we are communicating quite well with one exception, which FOR ME is a big one. For her, it's not important. She also has historically provided "sex", although not love-making, and continues to do so. From her perspective, providing sex is an "act of giving" and should be appreciated as such. She feels I should appreciate what I'm being given versus complaining about what I'm not, although I'm sure you can appreciate my perspective on that.
I don't want to diminish the seriousness of this because its as if she has told you that she will commit suicide or sink the marriage if you talk about this or do something about this predicament.
I didn't read her ultimatum as that serious. She's effectively saying that she is an unhappy person, and has to work very hard to cope. She's saying that if I ask her to talk about having a more fulfilling sex life, and instruct me in how to please her, that she will be forever more unhappy than she is now, and can't explain why. She's willing to do it, but is basically pointing out what the consequence will be.
I COULD tell her to do it anyway and trust in the fact that she's being overly dramatic, or that the consequences won't be as severe as she is projecting, but would you want to take that bet? Right now I don't. In that context, I also can't imagine the experience would be very good for either of us.
Those are the words of someone trying to use your love and your love of the ideal of marriage as a hostage or to bully you in this relationship to avoid doing anything about a potential fatal blow to the marriage.
Adinva also perceives my W's behavior as aggressive / manipulative. I have wrestled with those thoughts. If that is the case, she's very good at it because to look at her, she seems to be operating from a real place of desperation and hurt. The jury is still out on this. I don't believe that she tries to "bully" me in any other area of our relationship, so I'm tempted to accept what she's telling me as being genuine.
But here is a mental exercise for you: what would happen if after this recent ultimatum you've been served you just stop having sex with her. No announcement that you are going to do that, no drama about it, just stop. No more advances or suggestions on your part. Isn't that what she wants? Isn't her ideal of sexual fulfillment being nonsexual with you? Wouldn't you be fulfilling her wishes, her dreams and her vision as herself?
I have tried that. The last time I did it we went well over a year and she didn't even notice, and still denies that it could have been that long. Now that I've shined such a spotlight on the desire gap she's conscious of it and if I go too long, she gets VERY nervous that something is wrong, gets very unhappy and starts to break down. It's not about the sex for her obviously, she doesn't want me to be unhappy with her for any reason. She doesn't want to have to live up to any expectations.
The "no sex / no sex talk" challenge feels very passive aggressive to me. It's not really what I want -- what would be the point? If it would be to punish her, I don't think it would yield the intended result.
With regard to "moving her out" -- I couldn't do that to my children. I don't believe she will fight for our marriage -- I think she's more likely to give up and resign herself to being alone (for now). She'll tell herself that she's gotten what she deserves and just cope with it. I just don't think she's up to the mental challenge of being the one responsible for keeping this going.
This weekend we had a long car ride and I asked her why she doesn't want to address her deep-seated unhappiness and feelings of unworthiness that DON'T have to do with me. She says it's because she's accepted them and learned how to cope. She says it's part of who she is, because those feelings have been there for as long as she can remember. She asked me to think of it like she has a limp that could be surgically corrected. Sure, she could walk normally if she went through surgery and physical therapy, but the pain of that *process* is not worth it to her, because having the limp is something she's accepted about herself.
She told me that the pain of the therapy process is not worth it to her, she'd rather continue to cope and she's accepted this about herself. She has asked me to accept it too.
The issue, of course, is that the limp would probably only impact her, but her unhappiness impacts everyone who cares about her. How can I ask her to do that "for me", however, given how she feels about it? I don't know that I can -- I think my decision is to cope with it as well, or walk away.
Captain, your situation is extreme -- what keeps you in a marriage that has been without physical intimacy for so long? Why does your W stay in the M?
I very much appreciate your mental exercise, I want to make sure I understand what you were looking for me to take from it. Do you think I've understood? If I've missed the point, please elaborate.
I do NOT feel good about resigning myself to 14 years of one-sided passion. I am wrestling with the following:
1) Is she just fundamentally not physically attracted to me? If not, it would seem that it's not fixable. How can I determine this without needy questions? This has been a nagging doubt for me forever. Did she marry me because I was "safe" versus someone she felt passionate about?
2) Am I sabotaging myself by being the more expressive partner? When I tone down the expressiveness, she starts to panic and believes I am withdrawing, but when I am expressive and affectionate, she doesn't really reciprocate. When she thinks I'm withdrawing, she does make some efforts to tell me she loves me, etc. Should I just let her panic and be more aloof? This feels like playing games to me and not being true to who I am.
3) Our relationship is doing much better overall. Is there a chance that this works itself out? Should I be patient and revisit in 6 months when we've had more time to heal? I acknowledge that I like to have things fixed right away. I try to optimize. Will time heal all wounds?
Thanks Captain,
Accuray
As I reflect upon your reply and some of the characteristics you've written about, it has the sound of "hormones." I say this from the sound of the swings back and forth and/or the dichotomy of self-confidence.
Some of what you've describe sounds at least a litlle bi-polar and as she has been aware of the depressive aspects of herself and her interactions.
I'll give you some short answers to your questions at the end and I may revise and extend when I have a bit more time.
1) Unless she has actually told you that she is or is not physically attracted to you, there is no real way to know except to ask. There are different ways to ask that question. Be aware that the "needy" concern is probably more yours than hers (i.e., she might not here the question as being needy. Being needy is more characteristics of requiring constane reassurance (e.g., her response when you seem to withdraw from her POV).
2)IMO, there is never anything wrong about being the more expressive partner as long as it doesn't become a competition. But sometimes operning ourselves up to share the feelings comes back to bite us in unexpected ways or is perceived very differently than we mean for it to be received.
3) It will always work out, though there are no guarantees in what way it will work out or that it'll work out in the way we would like. My first marriage taught me that.
More later
The Captain
Thank you Captain,
She has family members who are bi-polar, so I believe there is some of that going on.
The issue with being the more expressive partner is that my love language is "words of affirmation" and I do not get those from her. Words of affirmation actually make her feel badly when she receives them, so she doesn't give them. The only way I "get my love tank filled" is if I become less expressive, she'll step up and be more affectionate, but it comes with a price in that she starts to panic. I'd like to be able to get the words of affirmation without making her think I'm angry at her or withdrawing.
Thanks, I look forward to more of your thoughts, you are very helpful. Let me know if there was more I needed to take from your exercise.
Accuray
Thank you Young at Heart,
My situation is a bit different than I think I've lead you to believe. We had "the bomb" which tore everything down, and we've been piecing back to together. Therefore, the historic anger / communication / withdrawal etc. issues have been addressed. My W claims to be very happy with me and the marriage. The remaining issue is really mine -- that she is not an engaged sex partner. That doesn't seem to be based on the fact that she's angry with me, and I am making sure to keep her love tank full. The other areas of our marriage are going very well. The last elephant in the room is that I'm unhappy with our sex life, and the fact that I'm unhappy makes my wife unhappy.
The root issue is that she's unhappy with herself / has low self-esteem and this combined with other unknown factors has given her very low sex drive and latent negative feelings about sex. The challenge is that she is not willing to work on improving this situation, and I'm not sure if I can resign myself to being "given" sex as a gift, versus participating in sex with a partner for the rest of my life. Make sense?
To be clear, she's not withholding sex, she is providing it, but in the context of gift giving versus engaging.
I get your point about "NMMNG" -- I read that book and honestly I do not see myself in it. I don't do things for my W in order to get things in return -- nor do I feel I'm "owed" good sex in return for acts of service or quality time. If I felt that way, I'd be satisfied with receiving sex as a gift and I'm not -- I'm looking for partner engagement and mutual satisfaction.
Where I'm coming from is that we've just gone through a horrible crisis in our marriage. In putting things back together, we've gotten the chance to hit the "reset button" and define a new path for ourselves. Among the dysfunctional dynamics of our now dead prior marriage was an unsatisfying sex life.
Since we're putting in all the effort to make our new marriage stronger and better, don't we owe it to ourselves to address this issue along with all the others? From all my reading, a good sex life complements and reinforces a good marriage and vice-versa. Why should we put together a great marriage and settle for a mediocre sex life? That's really how I'm looking at it. Ok, we've mutually done all of these things to improve our marriage -- I'm frustrated by the fact that she's not willing to work with me to improve our sex life, and I'm having a hard time understanding and dealing with her explanation for why not.
I am not playing games, and I am not being untrue to myself -- quite the opposite. I've observed, however, that when I'm the more expressive, affectionate partner, that my needs do not get met and my love tank does not get filled. If I dial that back, she does step up, but does so with a "panic tax" that doesn't allow us to establish an equilibrium there. It's like MWD's analogy of a teeter totter in DR, if one partner is pursuing the other is not.
Our "norm" so far has been that I pursue, I fill up her love tank, she feels good but does not reciprocate. My tank runs down, I get frustrated by not having my needs met, then she gets upset because she feels she's not living up to my expectations.
To boil it down to a simple example. THIS IS A CONTRIVED EXAMPLE, I DON'T REALLY DO THIS, NOR DO I NECESSARILY WANT THIS:
1) I tell her "to fill my love tank, send me a text once a day and tell me you love me"
2) She tells me "to make me feel loved, talk to me for 30 minutes every night"
3) I talk to her for 30 minutes every night, and I enjoy it too, we connect. I don't view it as "for her", it's for us.
4) She never sends me the texts
Eventually she'll notice I'm not happy. I reiterate that sending the texts would fill up my love tank. She gets upset that she doesn't meet my needs, tells me I'd be happier with someone else, and starts to cry.
***Instead of getting upset because you haven't sent the texts, why not just send the texts?***
That's kind of the million dollar question for me right now.
Really I don't care about texts -- that's just a silly example -- but it DOES apply to words of affirmation, physical affection, a good sex life, etc.
I have spent a lot of time talking to my IC and my DB coach about whether I'm setting sky-high expectations or being unreasonable or overly needy, but to the contrary they are telling me that my needs are modest, that I'm asking for things that would be expected from any marriage, and that if anything I'm overly understanding about my wife's unwillingness to deliver.
I understand your point about setting a goal and making a timeline. I have thought about that a lot recently. In the end, though, I really love my W for many reasons -- so I really want this to come to a happy conclusion where my W agrees to work on herself and seek some therapy. I am confident that she will enjoy her life more as a result -- I'm not being purely selfish. We all either enhance or diminish the moods of those we interact with. That applies to me and my children in the case of my W. If she's happy more often than sad or angry, then she has a net positive effect on us, and that's selfishly what I want, but altruistically, I want her to be truly happy herself.
What I've been thinking about the last couple days with the help of the Captain is that I have two paths forward -- (1) drop this and cope with what I'm giving -- take it off the table as an issue in our marriage and be happy with what I am getting or (2) drive this to a crisis to precipitate a change.
The first option scares me because I don't see a path to personal fulfillment and happiness there.
The second option has two resolutions -- W agrees to see a therapist and work with me, or she doesn't and the marriage ends.
Obviously I want the outcome where she works with me, but she's made it very clear she does NOT want to do that.
Accuray
Sorry, I did misunderstand things.
It sounds like you have made incredible strides.
As for me, I think I understand what you are saying. I have in my life opted for the settling for what I have for the moment, but continuing to mover forward with my GAL and self improvement.
As an older man with adult sons and a wife of 40+ yesrs of marriage, I want to savor what I have for a change, even if it could be more, as life can be much shorter than we expect. Perhaps that is also a reason not to settle.
I feel that in the future (while neither of us has any health problems now) we will face real challenges and that will give us opportunities to have some crisis bring us closer together. My hope is that we can continue to evolve together. I know that I intend to continue to evolve and become a better person.
You definately have a choice of dropping the changes you want to push for or driving things to a crisis. I do think that there may be a third alternative and that is to take a short breather, but promise to continue your improvement so that you continue to build a better marriage. Once you are achieving change, the idea of taking a breather may sound like stopping and just learning to cope with no further progress.
I feel that there can be a commitment to a better future, even if one takes a breather. Good luck to you and congratulations on all that you have achieved.
Thanks Young at Heart, it's valuable to get the benefit of your experience. My IC actually recommended something similar. She said that we tend to assume that the way things are now is the way they will stay -- but that's usually not the case. We continue to grow in our marriage, and the marriage continues to grow through us.
You may be right that my best course of action is to cope *for now* and put a check-in point on my calendar in six months to re-evaluate how I'm feeling about things.
My W and I definitely fell victim to this thinking historically, where one of us would say something once, and the other would take it as fact now and forever. If we had instead brought the point to question again, we would have found that the other person had softened or changed their mind entirely about what seemed set in stone before. I've made it a point now when discussing how I'm feeling with W to say that "this is how I feel now, I may not always feel this way" because I recognize the value of keeping the door open to continue to re-evaluate divisive issues.
Based on these posts and further reflection, I'm going to assume my W is not willing to work with me now, but that doesn't mean she won't be willing to work with me ever, and I'm going to let it ride for a while. Everything else really is going quite well (with the exception of lack of words of affirmation) and we're by no means done "retraining" each other how we're going to react and respond in this marriage going forward. Over time we may build more trust and comfort, and that may open the door to a willingness to be more vulnerable and take more chances.
I really, really hope it does. In any case, I will put the date on my calendar for June to re-evaluate.
Accuray
YAAAAAYYYYY! Accuray, wow! I love that thinking. Good good good!
You have hit upon a great approach to my dilemma about people striving for excellence crushing those they want to help. Just BE for a while. Then check back in. I think it's the constantly being evaluated and falling short that is so draining.
You're right. My T has mentioned lots of times that what you think and feel NOW may be different later and same for your spouse. Focusing on the moment frees you from worrying about the future. Try to be completely happy for the moment with the good things you DO have.
Thanks, I look forward to more of your thoughts, you are very helpful. Let me know if there was more I needed to take from your exercise.
Your answers reveal to me that you've thought through and conceptualized some of these conditions based upon your experiences so far. And they also reveal a number of similarities between the way you and I think (a recognition of another person with views/experiences that are similar enough that they are recognizable at somedeeper level).
For example, I can relate to your perception, at a personal level, of sex versus making love. You could probably make a similar distinction between love and lust.
There is a certain before/after quality to your writing as to where you started piecing things back together. Having survived an affair (the marriage did not but I did) and to put away the anger, there can occur a perceived point in time where the past becomes the past and there is only "now" and "in the future." I know where and when that was for me. You might not know where and when that was for yourself and yet to someone reading your words, I think it would be evident to them.
However, I also picked up something else...that "before" and to a large extent even now, left to her own, your wife would not engage in sexual activity. It seems that whatever that is, it does not have much to do with you. It does not surprise me that she didn't notice (though she probably did with some feeling of relief) or might otherwise deny not only the infrequency of sex/lovemaking but that it was so infrequent or non-existent at all. Even before my past 14 years with the explicit demarcation of no sexual activity, there were long periods where my current wife just did not seem to notice absence (and when I finally did start pointing it out, there was lots of anger returned).
A similar occurrence in my first marriage except much more dramatic and my first noticed and worried about it at first, because we went from making love about 16 times per month (before our son was born) to 16 times in 4 years after he was born before we went our separate ways. How did I know? Wasn't it just a perception? No, I journaled and kept records (marked a calendar that only meant something to me)...just so what i was thinking or feeling wasn't different from what was and was not actually occurring.
So, been there done that.
Here's what I notice from your response in the period "after" you've begun to rebuild:
You identify a level of anxiety if the sexual frequency falls below some minimum. You both have that anxiety in some form (you because you don't want to be a non-sexual person in a marriage, her because she now thinks "something's wrong" once the issue was put into the spotlight). At one level you are attempting to fulfill an old Doobie Brothers Album title (What were once vices are now habits). At some level, though, you are probably going to need to transition away from the avoidance of anxiety to a point where you are engaged "for" something in your marriage.
There is an interesting article written from Laurie Gerber's POV that you might find interesting, in that you look like you are attempting to put some of these into place.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laurie-gerber/why-my-husband-wont-cheat_b_1121177.htmlThe Captain
And they also reveal a number of similarities between the way you and I think (a recognition of another person with views/experiences that are similar enough that they are recognizable at somedeeper level).
Agreed, I believe that's why your original advice really spoke to me is that I recognized a kindred spirit.
there can occur a perceived point in time where the past becomes the past and there is only "now" and "in the future."
Yes, I know what you're saying, but I also know I'm not quite there yet. I feel like I'm approaching it in 50% increments which means it seems like I'll never quite get there, but the distance keeps getting shorter and shorter to the goal.
To some degree it feels very surreal -- my W is back in many ways "as I remembered her", or as I perceived her character from the start. I did not believe that person was capable of cheating on me, so now that she's "back" the fact that she did seems somehow unbelievable again. I don't know if that makes sense. I do still get triggered to think about the betrayal now and again, but where I "go" emotionally when that happens is night and day compared to how it used to be.
I used to get severely depressed, whereas now I feel slight anger, greater frustration, and still predominantly sadness. It's getting better, but in many ways it's still hard to believe this has happened to me. If not for the positive changes I've made for myself, I really do wish I had a mind-eraser to block that knowledge out. In many ways, I have healed, but there is still more ground to cover, and this relationship will never be the same, there will always be a scar.
I have come to the realization that if she told me she was going to leave now, I would be much better prepared to handle it. I would know what emotions to expect, and what the path looks like. That knowledge is a comfort -- it will allow me to detach if I need to. At the same time, I believe that the realization that our wedding vows are not "sacred" has driven a wedge where the marriage cannot be a place of safety and security like it once was, and that's a regrettable loss.
However, I also picked up something else...that "before" and to a large extent even now, left to her own, your wife would not engage in sexual activity. It seems that whatever that is, it does not have much to do with you.
Yes, the fact that it does not have to do with me is intellectually understandable, but emotionally challenging. As I've covered ad nauseum, this is an issue for me and not for her. Before getting married, I did have a few other longer term relationships, and at least a couple of them were really good sexually. However, in each case, many other things were missing. My W is the complete package for me in all the areas that matter *except* this one which unfortunately is quite important to me.
I think of it like a different model of Maslow's Hierarchy. At the top of the pyramid are the crucial issues in your marriage. These have to do with if the other person is "on your level" intellectually and in terms of emotional development, if you are genuinely attracted to the person physically and otherwise, and in my view, if you are sexually compatible.
The next layer down the pyramid may include your views on parenting, your politics, views on religion, etc.
Farther down might by hobbies and interests, musical preferences, what you like to eat, neatness, etc.
Ideally you're aligned with your spouse up and down the pyramid. If you're not, there will be conflict:
From my perspective, the things at the top are your "walkaway factors" -- that if those don't work out, you can't continue. The next level down are going to be divisive issues in your marriage and may be an ongoing source of tension, but probably won't end it in and of themselves. They will however simmer and cause ongoing angst if not resolved.
The lower level layers may lead to conflict in the moment, but they're minor annoyances and not things you dwell on.
In my situation, my top layer is very good with the exception of sexual compatibility. That's not so bad *right now* that I'm in a walkaway position, but it has the potential to become that important.
The next layer down (politics, religion, parenting, financials, etc.) we are almost 100% aligned, this has made our marriage virtually free of arguments.
In the bottom layer, we are more diverse, and these things are annoyances for both of us, but they're on the bottom level of the pyramid so they're just not that important.
At one level you are attempting to fulfill an old Doobie Brothers Album title (What were once vices are now habits). At some level, though, you are probably going to need to transition away from the avoidance of anxiety to a point where you are engaged "for" something in your marriage.
I don't understand what you're saying here, although I do like the Doobie Brothers, can you elaborate?
There are a lot of things I'm engaged "for" in the top and second level of my pyramid described above. If all those things weren't good, I wouldn't care about the sex because I wouldn't stay in the relationship.
I very much enjoyed Laurie Gerber's article, I hadn't heard of her before. I would LOVE to have my W read it, but that would be contrary to my new pledge to give it a break and see how things unfold.
I will see if Laurie has other articles that I might share with her along the lines of the non-sexual.
Thanks Captain,
Accuray
A quick reply on vices and habits and other odds and ends.
If sex (ir something else) is a "vice" and you practice it often enough, it becomes a "habit" (rather than just a vice. There is a bit of twisted humor in there.
Remember, as I occasionally have to remind myself, that anger is just fear expressed. And there may be a time where you just let it go.
You asked several posts back why I stay given my situation and why my wife stays given her choice. From my POV, she stays because she mostly has the relationship with me that she wants. I'm not mean, disrespectful or uncaring of either her or others around me. She can mostly have the life that she wants to share without me dictating how it should or has to be.
Why do I stay? Because I made a promise or more than one and it is personally important to me to keep them. I and others have questioned the wisdom of making them and whether they should really be set in stone. This is not the relationship I hoped for, it is not the relationshop and marriage of my dreams, and as I have told her, if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't, simply because I feel I've given up so much.
Mostly the anger/frustration has dissipated simply because hoping for something to change in the presence of no-risk just hasn't produced any results. Although she says she sees things somewhat differently than the way I portray them (meaning she didn't really want a non-sexual relationship, she can neither bring herself to give me permission to sexually engage with her or just make an advance of her own.
notice, for example what Laurie said in her article about that about being permissive about her husband and sexual issues. I don't have that and pointing out that I don't does not make any difference.
So, I've settled in and accepted a non-sexual marriage until death do us part.
The Captain
Need advice:
My W went on a business trip Thursday night and came home last night. If you've followed my sitch, you know my W had 2 serious EA's with coworkers in the past. When she returned, I asked her about the trip. She flew to another city and connected with her company's salesman for that territory who she works with mainly remotely. Friday they had a meeting together with a client and then she flew home.
Here's what happened:
Before she left she told me she would call me to check-in Thursday night when she got to the hotel. She volunteered this, I didn't request it. She asked how late she could call. I told her up until 11:00 would be fine.
At 9:45 she texted me and said she was running out to get some food and would call when she got back to the hotel. At 11:10 I sent her a text telling her I was really tired and we could connect tomorrow.
When she got back from the trip last night, she told me that Thursday night she and the salesman had gone out to dinner together. The concierge gave them a restaurant recommendation that he said would be good and reasonably fast. She said as it turns out, it was a very fancy Italian dinner. She said that the salesman is a bit younger than she is, and is "old school" with his manners. He would take care of all the travel arrangements, taxicabs, etc, hold the door, etc. He also asked her what she was going to order and ordered for her. She said that he is a "metrosexual", very fastidious, a "foodie", etc.
She said that's why they got back to the hotel after 11:00. The next day they went to the business meeting. The customer was there shaking hands with everyone at the start of the meeting, but gave my wife a big hug.
A few things: my wife is fiercely independent and very much an advocate of women's equality. She doesn't let me carry her luggage for her, etc., so I was very surprised she wouldn't have an issue with the salesman ordering her dinner for her. I asked her if she thought that was appropriate, and she said he's just "old school", and that she liked it.
What am I to take from this? Was this story designed to make me jealous, to make me feel inadequate, or was it innocent and I'm being crazy?
I acknowledge that when we haven't had sex for a while I get "dark" and I'm there now. Last night made that worse. Should I say anything to her about how this made me feel, or blow it off? I definitely don't want to be needy.
Accuray
So, what does your intuition tell you, with tone and the words she chose? Does it tell you this situation is something that was far too enjoyable in an inappropriate way?
Or, is it just an attempt to be open in the context of your past?
You are going to be in for a long slog on issues of trust and only you know how reliable your intuition is.
The Captain
Hi Accuray! One - don't mindread. It's a waste of time.
Two - best response to all of those extraneous details about her dinner, "oh, sounds nice."
There's just as must chance that she's head over heels for this gentlemanly metrosexual as that she just found the evening interesting and felt like sharing. (Actually I think more likely the latter than the former.) But you'll not serve your cause by acting jealous or insulted about this guy.
Since you two are piecing, perhaps you could use the opportunity to get to know her better as she currently is. Maybe the fierce independence has gotten old and she enjoyed being pampered a little, ask her? Or is she the same old women's libber and found it annoying? Could be an interesting conversation if there isn't a hint of jealousy about it.
Thank you both -- I think I'm just a bit nutty. I do think she was more over the top than I would expect for a business trip. Telling me that the guy is single and good looking, then pointing out the qualities she likes that I don't have got my nerves up. She also spoke about it in the same "oh it's nothing" way that she used to speak about OM.
That said, we're spending so much time together and emotional investment that I just don't think she would have bandwidth to get something going, plus I've given her no reason too.
I think I just got triggered and haven't been in a while so it was a double whammy. I'm going to say "all me" on this one.
Thanks for listening, sometimes I just need to be brought back to earth.
Accuray
Finally found a good IC! Book author, had a segment on TV, marriage specialist, very smart (but pricey, yikes!)
In my first session I felt he nailed what's going on with W -- he said that W does not feel safe in the relationship. "Safe" is a loaded word, but in this context he meant that she feels scrutinized and judged. He said I shouldn't think that's because I've been judgemental, that's what she's bringing to the table.
He said to think of it like being at work and your boss tells you you need to learn something new to continue to do your job. You start working on learning whatever it is, and before you get there, you realize you have to learn something else to understand the first thing, then you start learning that and discover there's something else. Before long you panic and just shut down. You feel you can just never quite get there. He said that W will go there very quickly.
He said that she doesn't step up and give me words of affirmation, etc., because she has convinced herself that whatever she gives me will never be good enough, and that if she does satisfy some need, there will always be another to take it's place and it will never end.
He said that she needs to get to a place where she feels safe -- that nothing is going to come up that's going to make her feel badly about herself.
He said that right now, any request I make fires an inadequacy trigger. Just asking for anything causes her to fear that it will be something she can't do, won't want to do, or won't be able to do it well enough to satisfy me, and consequently she'll be rejected.
He said I probably feel like I'm in a restaurant but can't order anything off the menu because the waiter will have a breakdown over the fact that he hasn't already brought it.
He said that I need to work toward a scenario where my wife is in the grocery store and asks me if I want anything. I say I want cake. She says she doesn't feel like making a cake, so I suggest she buy one. The point is, she can't go wrong -- she's in a grocery store looking for dessert so there's no way to lose.
He also said that she doesn't feel I accept her as she is. He told me I need to do that, to look at her as a package, celebrate the good and reconcile myself to the bad. Seeking to continue to improve the elements I don't like will only be destructive.
He said the only time it's appropriate to ask the other person to change in this scenario is if some shortcoming is "mission critical" to me, meaning that I can't stay in the marriage if things continue as they are.
========================
Lots of food for thought. A refreshing break from my prior IC's who tended to tell me everything that was wrong with W but didn't really challenge ME with what to do to make things better.
None of them nailed the "lack of safety" dynamic.
I discussed some of this with W and she agreed with it. She says that she feels like I walk around rating everything -- that bike ride was an 8, that trip to the beach was a 4, so she feels that anything she does is going to be rated.
Here's the thing -- I don't see how I do that! I DO however frequently talk about my reactions to things, what made me happy, what upset me, etc. I mean, what else is there to talk about?
I would imagine that if I was 100% positive about everything, it would give her the comfort she's looking for, but that's not me. I'm generally upbeat, but things DO bother me. Even if I don't mention it, she can tell when I'm not happy. How can I shift my personality to be happy all the time and never let anything get to me?
I need help here -- what do I do with this feedback?
I *really* want to be the best husband I can be for my W, but I don't see "the plan" in terms of how to approach this.
The really good news is that W agreed to go see him with me next time. That is *huge* because up to now W has completely refused to do MC.
Accuray
A,
That last post is very HUGE......a mean massively HUGE. Your IC pointed out something that seems critical to your relationship both physically and emotionally. Then to have your wife confirm the IC's theories is beyond big.
I think one of the main themes in DB'ing is changing the things you control......and the only thing you truly control is yourself. So how do you change the rating game? Maybe find something in your day to day life, say how the house is being cleaned, and work on changing how your communicate with her about the situation. Say she cleans the kitchen top to bottom, but misses the microwave. Maybe give her words of appreciation for cleaning the kitchen and then clean the microwave yourself. If she asks why, just say you noticed it needed a little more cleaning and you wanted to do your part. Of course this is an example, but hopefully you get where I am coming from.
Thanks LFW,
I see where you're coming from. Here's the thing though, I don't expect W to clean the kitchen and I never make any commentary on it positive or negative. We do a 50/50 on dishes/cleaning and I *never* complain that what she's done isn't good enough. In fact, I never *complain* about her at all. The issue is in my asks, not my complaints, and what I've asked her for is to (1) do some work on her unhappiness, (2) understand my love language and work with me like I work with hers and (3) help me understand how to make sex more enjoyable for her, so that she enjoys engaging in it with me versus viewing it as a gift she's given me.
That's it -- I don't complain about cooking, cleaning, parenting, finances, friends, family, politics, religion, etc. On those dimensions we're aligned or I'm supportive.
The other challenge is that compliments or positive reinforcements make her feel worse, so it's hard for me to let her know what I'm happy about. The IC said that she will be quick to interpret these as covert criticisms, or expectation setting. (i.e. "you look good tonight" is interpreted as "I wish you put more time into your appearance", or "if you don't look good I won't love you" etc., even though that's not what I mean or what I'm saying, that's where she goes.) I definitely have felt that she turns what I say inside out and then scolds me for the reverse. Now I know WHY she does it, and that feels good.
So in terms of DB and what I can control, this really falls on my shoulders to (1) make every effort not to appear critical or judgemental of people other than my wife, (2) drop the discussion about improving the sex life, (3) stop sharing scenarios in which my expectations weren't met that don't have to do with my W, (4) forget about getting my words of affirmation, and just accept that they're not going to come.
That list honestly scares me. Call it MLC, but I'm looking forward as someone in their mid-40's and saying "can I live like that forever after?" Can I really be happy with someone who doesn't seem to enjoy sex? Can I go through my life not feeling attractive and wanted by my W? Can I accept these things without fostering resentment that will sabotage our marriage down the line?
The cop out is to say that I can live with this for now, and that in the future when things improve, W may change and these things may get better. That might happen, but IC said that is not the path of accepting who she is. His point is that I need to accept all of it now, reconcile the bad, and be ok with the whole package.
What I told IC was that I was reconciled before -- before my W had the affair and dropped the bomb, I had accepted what I was getting and had made myself happy with it. I had filled in the missing pieces for myself. Now that I've gone through all this pain and done all this work on me, I don't *want* to compromise with 80% good. That wouldn't be worth the pain, you know? If a little more pain gets me 90%, let's go for it, I'm ready to do the work, W, I'd like you to come with me for this last bit.
Ugh, at least now it's on the table, but it's a tough thing to look at.
Accuray
Thinking about it more, if I were judging or criticizing and that was the issue, that would be a straightforward fix and I would have done it already.
The challenge is that she feels like she doesn't measure up when I'm supportive and non-judgmental.
She chose me and I have high standards for myself. My drive to meet my own expectations makes her feel scrutinized, judged, and inadequate because I push myself.
How do I lower my own self-expectations? Am I being fair to myself in doing that? See, it's not what I'm doing to her, it's how she feels about herself because of who I am.
That's what makes this so difficult.
Accuray
Accuray, this is totally huge!!! Your IC had an insight, wife agreed, and now W is going to go next time? That's great news.
My H agreed to go to counseling in January tonight...so I am also celebrating a bit (but he still hasn't said he'll give up his A...ugh)
Maybe you should hold tight until W gets into counseling and you get the IC's insights on what she is feeling. Maybe she is overreacting because of an issue she has (seems likely) but he may also have ideas on how to improve your interactions.
I feel like I can identify a bit with your W...and I did get annoyed with my H in the past when he was trying to lose weigh/work out. It created some sort of insecurity in me and I wonder if it was an underlying fear for my safety in the relationship. I think the key for me now is finding my own interests/goals so that I can be more confident in my achievements and celebrate H's success.
Still, I'm encouraged for you.
Nblost,
I cannot imagine the pain of living with someone who is having an affair with your knowledge, that must be just brutal. Congratulations on getting him to agree to counseling, that can only help. Be very diligent about the counselor you choose, I had to go through 3 before I found one I felt good about.
I'm still having a hard time with my own behavior. W and I talked last week about the fact that our ML frequency is falling off again. She told me she would "step it up". We're in an agreement now where she initiates and I do not. I figured this weekend we'd connect. Friday, Saturday, Sunday night just went to sleep together. She has a business trip Tuesday - Thursday this week, then we have family coming. By Monday I was like "ok, I'm sure we'll do it tonight and everything will be fine, keep it together."
Monday night she comes home from work in a bad mood -- things not going well at work. She had to work after the kids went to bed. We eventually went to bed together, watched a little TV and she started passing out. At that point I was disappointed and I couldn't sleep. She noticed I wasn't sleeping and asked (groggy) if I wanted to ML. I told her it was ok, just go to sleep. She was in a bad mood, obviously tired, and I have a *thing* with feeling like I'm "taking" when we ML. There was no chance she was into it, so I decided to let it go. Decided not to cuddle because it would make me too crazy and rolled the other way.
NOT GOOD ACCURAY! She feels she doesn't measure up, has a hair trigger for inadequacy, and I made her feel badly, that she wasn't meeting my expectations.
So angry with myself. I knew I was doing it in the moment but I couldn't deal.
I'm really caught in a spot here -- I want to foster a safe, supportive R for W, but my sex life is unsatisfying and when I go too long, I get sad / pouty / not myself.
I feel I was conditioned over so many years of rejection to feel like if it's been too long, it's never going to happen again. That's a place of fear I need to learn to deal with.
I'm so frustrated with myself today.
Accuray
I really think you need to schedule it. I understand the weight of Friday...Saturday...Sunday, uh oh it hasn't happened yet. It's a lot of pressure that I can recall. If it was every Monday like clockwork, good mood or bad, it's every Monday and the other days there's no anxiety that every day you're expecting and then disappointed. She's letting you down every day from halfway through the week until the end of the week now, and she knows it. Make special cocktails and pretend you're at the beach.
Surely she doesn't like you being pouty for going without so long, and you shouldn't suppress your needs completely, and from what you've said, she really is trying to work with you. Try scheduling it on a fixed day at a fixed time.
Also let go of the idea that it always has to be good and not "taking." It's a lot of pressure too to know that if it wasn't very good then you'll be disappointed all week. If she can please you even if she had a bad day or is tired, I think that would make her feel good.
It's rough Accuray. Your situation is far from perfect, but it's not all bad either.
Wow
I spent all day yesterday reading this thread.
I think we are married to the same person. I mean my wife says and does all the same things! It's pretty uncanny.
I think our wives have the same core problem. Which manifests itself in depression, low libido, lack of energy, and more. Even the way they go about avoiding sex is similar.
I saw my W and I in your description of you and your W.
I think your foremost concern should be as seeing this situation as not an SSM issue, but a physical condition. It's easier to feel empathy if you see their situation as an illness you both have to endure, rather than her being "selfish".
I have mix feelings about your wife forcing herself to have sex with you. Mine was doing something similar, eventually she tired of it, and stopped it. Yours sounds to be heading that way.
Instead focus on reducing all expectations of sex. You mentioned OM seemed a better choice because there were no expectations. I think you should steal this from his book.
Your probably better served working on some sexual tension, not expecting it.
Like I've said I'm in a similar sitch so I'm not saying I have the answer just offering more options.
Work on making her feel loved, I know you read 5 LL, but think about it this way every time you expect sex, whether you get it or not you are makin a love bank withdrawal. This means you may need to deposit more than you thought you do, and reconsider how often and at what times you withdraw. No point in making a withdrawal that will lead to no sex, right?
I'm very interested in what your IC has to say, he/she sounds like they figured it out, or at least have dealt with this before.
My W believes that whenever I do something nice it's to get sex. She can't see the love involved in the action or in the sex. My goal is to break this belief through actions not words. To make her feel loved AND desired.
You said your wife wants to feel validated, yet she doesn't want to get it from you. Mine believes I only validate for sex, could yours be feeling the same?
I'll be watching this thread often now, I think we need a very similar solution.
Thanks Adinva,
You are right, I do feel lucky to have the situation I have at this point, it was much much worse in July.
I'm not sure W will go for a schedule, there are some nights where she just won't be willing, and if that happened to be a scheduled night she would resent having to do it anyway. I appreciate the suggestion about trying to find a way to reduce the uncertainty and I'll think about what else I can do.
WRT the taking, I don't know what to do about that. It's a scar, you know? Like anybody (I think) it's nice to feel wanted once in a while. I never tell W it was "bad", and I don't think she ever feels I look at it that way. I'm never down or hangdog afterwards, I'm usually very happy. It's the next day that I usually get the hangover.
Accuray
Thanks Greenblue, hope it was a good use of your time!
I have mix feelings about your wife forcing herself to have sex with you. Mine was doing something similar, eventually she tired of it, and stopped it. Yours sounds to be heading that way.
I don't think she'll do that. She really took the SSM book to heart, and she really doesn't seem to mind doing it, it doesn't make her angry or upset in any way. The issue is really mine, it bothers me that she doesn't enjoy it and look forward to it. She doesn't hate it by any means, she's just very take it or leave it. It would be nice to feel wanted or desired once in a while, you know?
Instead focus on reducing all expectations of sex. You mentioned OM seemed a better choice because there were no expectations. I think you should steal this from his book.
I've tried that many times over the course of our marriage. That usually results in sex disappearing and me getting resentful. Honestly we're in a better place when she agrees to a given frequency but I let her decide when. MY issue is really the attitude she is bringing to it more than anything else.
My W believes that whenever I do something nice it's to get sex. She can't see the love involved in the action or in the sex. My goal is to break this belief through actions not words. To make her feel loved AND desired.
That's not my situation at all. I do not have "No More Mr. Nice Guy" stuff going on. I definitely don't "give to get" and my W doesn't regard me in that way. She *knows* I love her. It's not that she doesn't want me to validate her. The issue is that she's got a quick inadequacy trigger, and it's easy to fire that. Being critical of ANYTHING around her makes her feel badly about herself. I don't criticize her, and she is not insecure in my love for her.
Sex is not an overtly divisive issue in our marriage, we don't argue about it. The tensions are more subtle.
Mine believes I only validate for sex, could yours be feeling the same?
She does not. My W does not feel good about herself, and wants me to accept that rather than expecting her to work on it. Same thing with sex -- she doesn't have a drive for it and wants me to accept that. She's not interested in having good sex, she's not interested in having sex at all, but she will do it.
In response to Adinva's post, she doesn't seem to take any pleasure from satisfying me in that way (or any way). She doesn't do things to make me happy. It doesn't seem to do anything for her to please me. That's not to say that she's mean to me -- she's not. She's just low energy / low affection / low enthusiasm. In insight my IC contributed is that the *reason* she doesn't do things to please me is her fear that it will never be good enough, that she'll be judged and found to be lacking. Any form of thank you or praise (to her) is a reminder of all the things she didn't do or is not doing.
That's a tough spot for me to be in, it's very "no win" from my perspective.
Accuray
Venting...
So W is on a business trip. She left yesterday afternoon and is back after midnight tonight. We had a nice phone conversation while she was on her way to the airport. Normally she calls me when she arrives, but she told me she wouldn't be able to this time. I told her "no problem, just drop me an e-mail or a text". She said she would.
Woke up this morning and looked for email/text -- nothing. Checked e-mail periodically throughout the day -- nothing.
She must be in the air by now, so I guess that's not coming.
Really? You told me you'd send me a text and you can't say "I'm here" or something?
So frustrating.
I keep setting myself up to be disappointed because I feel like the things I ask for are so small, so insignificant, that they will take no time at all.
In the past when this kind of thing happened I would proactively text or e-mail and just say "hi" and not mention that she never came through, but I realize that would make her feel worse because it would point out that she didn't deliver, and would imply that a response might be nice, and she'd then worry that her response wouldn't be adequate.
Tough place to be.
I feel like I lived with no expectations before the bomb -- I assumed that what W was contributing was all she was willing or able to contribute, so I did my own thing to meet whatever needs I had. Because I was getting nothing, I really wasn't motivated to invest much either -- I withdrew and we lived in a "partnership" with occasional passionless sex.
That lack of connection made W so resentful that she went out and had an affair.
Ok, so here we are, I'm back to the table, I'm investing like crazy, and when I'm doing that *it's almost impossible to live with no expectations*. If I'm going to participate, let's participate together!
I don't think I "deserve" her participation, and I don't think I've "earned" it, that's not how I look at it. I don't feel I'm owed. I would *like* her to participate, it would fill a need I have to be involved in an intimate relationship.
Intimacy for one is no fun.
Accuray
You know had a talk with my W based on some of the stuff you mentioned, she too has the same type of fatalistic nothing will get better so why try beliefs.
I asked her if she thought I loved her, she said, sure...
I asked if she felt that my actions expressed it. She said she felt nothing.
I asked her to help me by letting her know when an action makes her feel loved, also if something makes her feel unloved.
I've since backed off all expectations, and have worked at making her feel cherished, through actions, not words.
I'll let you know how that works...
Dont discount the nice guy stuff, so easily. You've said many times you are a giver, yet your wife feels she deserves nothing. There is a chance she feels that your kindness is self serving, even if it is far from the truth.
Accuray: I read through your last post before finalizing this and while I know you were venting, I thought it was still important to post this. Your thoughts and internal conversation are playing havoc on your feelings. You probably know that at some level but it is a little like trying to jump around behind yourself to see your own back.
That said, know that what may seem to challenge and confront you directly is actually designed to have you think through and be aware of your own word processing and how it directly affects your view of the world. That may be important later this evening. So here goes:
I have mix feelings about your wife forcing herself to have sex with you. Mine was doing something similar, eventually she tired of it, and stopped it. Yours sounds to be heading that way.
I don't think she'll do that. She really took the SSM book to heart, and she really doesn't seem to mind doing it, it doesn't make her angry or upset in any way. The issue is really mine, it bothers me that she doesn't enjoy it and look forward to it. She doesn't hate it by any means, she's just very take it or leave it. It would be nice to feel wanted or desired once in a while, you know?
I’m curious on what basis you come to this conclusion. GB90 may be on to something and I also have thoughts along the same lines. I also have some experience with this as well.
Wasn’t it her that offered the solution by going directly to divorce? Do not pass go, do not collect reconciliation? So, you already know one of the worst possible outcomes is already at the table. You certainly have accomplished much by drawing back from the brink and generating some conversation around the issues and I don't diminish the importance of that.
By your own admission (below) you get resentful at the absence of sex…and in your own words you say she does not enjoy it and does not look forward to it. You use the words “she doesn’t seem to mind.” You do realize that is your interpretation of that and unless she has specifically told you all of that (that she doesn’t mind, that she does not get angry or upset in any way) in an absolutely safe and truthful way, you really have no basis to say that. Besides your IC is likely to dissuade you from this line of thinking because if there is all this other stuff going on for her…she is very definitely upset and suppressing the expression of anger, which probably originated somewhere and sometime else; a learned coping mechanism that you are having to deal with.
From every thing I know, it likely extends from that fear you mention at the end of the post, that once something starts, the “never enough” feeling is something that she sees as something that she cannot control and it just spirals down from there.
The one thing she can control is your “want” to feel wanted or desired. Reading your later post, she can also control by not emailing or texting you. If there is all this fear, then it also there when she does not meet the expectation (hers or yours) by failing to text, no matter what the reason. “Why bother” if she’s already “in trouble” for not doing what she said she would do.
Instead focus on reducing all expectations of sex. You mentioned OM seemed a better choice because there were no expectations. I think you should steal this from his book.
I've tried that many times over the course of our marriage. That usually results in sex disappearing and me getting resentful. Honestly we're in a better place when she agrees to a given frequency but I let her decide when. MY issue is really the attitude she is bringing to it more than anything else.
And therein lays the problem. To paraphrase or quote YODA: “Do or do not. There is no try.”
“Try” is a weasel word. I can even give you an exercise to demonstrate this. Place a piece of paper on a table. Now try to pick it up. Did you pick it up? Well, you failed to follow directions. I didn’t tell you to pick it up, I told you to "try to pick it up." So, put it back down on the table and try to pick it up. Is it still on the table this time? Try harder. Still on the table? You aren’t trying hard enough, try harder.
See, it sounds like you are doing something without actually committing to anything. And that is the point.
Our lives and how our lives occur to and for us is based in language, specifically the language we use. Without language we are unable to describe an occurring world. Ever wonder why you can’t remember stuff before a certain age? Don’t think things happened in your world as a baby or a toddler? They did, you just didn’t have language to describe it and without language to catalog how things occurred, there is no way to remember. “Try” is one part of the language you learned very early on.
From inside your own head I know it looks like you are in a better place because she does sex to or on you periodically. And from the way you have written about it (the words you have chosen), that is what it looks like. She’s doing sex to you or on you “in order to” avoid something (e.g., you getting resentful). You’ve written things to that effect elsewhere in this thread as well. You don’t like her attitude? You’re really going to be unpleasantly surprised when she gets tired of doing sex to you. And as you admit, it is your issue.
Expectations can be a killer (different from anticipation) for more than one reason. Expectations are based upon a past conversation you’ve had (with yourself) and/or learned. It
IS the way things
SHOULD BE!Failing to meet expectations (by falling short) leads to disappointment and fear that something is wrong. Maybe not the first time (but you will remember the disappointment), but certainly after numerous failures. So, every time you expect things to go a certain way and they don’t, what isn’t being fulfilled is a past conversation about the way things should be.
This is the language of your life and right now there is another set of language competing for your attention to explain your predicament. What a keen observer would note is that there is a certain excitement about "insights" and a new set of thoughts (and language) that may ring true for you. It's what you do with those insights that will ultimately matter. Some may be less compelling than they seem now, some may make a real difference (in defining your future relationship with your wife). Only time will tell.
My W believes that whenever I do something nice it's to get sex. She can't see the love involved in the action or in the sex. My goal is to break this belief through actions not words. To make her feel loved AND desired.
That's not my situation at all. I do not have "No More Mr. Nice Guy" stuff going on. I definitely don't "give to get" and my W doesn't regard me in that way. She *knows* I love her. It's not that she doesn't want me to validate her. The issue is that she's got a quick inadequacy trigger, and it's easy to fire that. Being critical of ANYTHING around her makes her feel badly about herself. I don't criticize her, and she is not insecure in my love for her.
Sex is not an overtly divisive issue in our marriage, we don't argue about it. The tensions are more subtle.
Here is a quick test. If your wife told you tonight, when she gets home, that she never wants to have sex with you again and wants to stay married to you…would you still love her? And how would she know?
Mine believes I only validate for sex, could yours be feeling the same?
She does not. My W does not feel good about herself, and wants me to accept that rather than expecting her to work on it. Same thing with sex -- she doesn't have a drive for it and wants me to accept that. She's not interested in having good sex, she's not interested in having sex at all, but she will do it.
In response to Adinva's post, she doesn't seem to take any pleasure from satisfying me in that way (or any way). She doesn't do things to make me happy. It doesn't seem to do anything for her to please me. That's not to say that she's mean to me -- she's not. She's just low energy / low affection / low enthusiasm. In insight my IC contributed is that the *reason* she doesn't do things to please me is her fear that it will never be good enough, that she'll be judged and found to be lacking. Any form of thank you or praise (to her) is a reminder of all the things she didn't do or is not doing.
That's a tough spot for me to be in, it's very "no win" from my perspective.
Accuray
You are correct in that sense…it is no win if you expect that what you describe as "needs" being met. I saw this earlier this week when you originally wrote about your new IC. “Acceptance” is going to be a real challenge. I know. I am in and out of this “acceptance” myself.
Let’s face it, you are quite clear that your wife’s personal preference is for no sex whatsoever. Left to her own preference she would not be sexually involved with you any longer while being married to you. Isn’t that what you’ve described? The problem you face and will continue to face is that while she may know you *love her,* she also knows you don’t accept her because you want her to be a certain way (your expectation) and she feels she can’t be the way you expect.
And there is another blind spot for you. You expect your wife to “accept” you. It is easy if your views and hers are pretty much aligned. Not so easy if they aren’t. My impression is that you don't feel very accepted right now.
Keep your awareness of what you are telling yourself. It will guide you through. The tough part is doing it in the moment and 'on the fly.'
The Captain
Wow Captain, that was excellent, very thought provoking. You definitely made me stop and think. Don't think I skimmed over what I didn't quote below. I've only responded to areas where I have questions or want further dialog. The rest I accept with a humble "you are correct sir"
Wasn't it her that offered the solution by going directly to divorce?
Yes, but I don't understand the point you're making in this regard. I don't view divorce as the worst possible outcome. The worst possible outcome is "take no prisoners" acrimonious divorce and we didn't get near that.
By your own admission (below) you get resentful at the absence of sex…and in your own words you say she does not enjoy it and does not look forward to it. You use the words “she doesn't seem to mind.” You do realize that is your interpretation of that and unless she has specifically told you all of that (that she doesn’t mind, that she does not get angry or upset in any way) in an absolutely safe and truthful way, you really have no basis to say that.
Yes, although I admit this is my impression of things, it is informed. Historically she *would* get angry when she felt she was providing sex as a duty, when she really wasn't feeling connected to me at all, and that anger came through loud and clear. I saw the anger, but didn't understand the source because she wouldn't discuss it. I thought it could have been her job, parents, whatever the case may be, but the anger was evident either way. There is no anger evident now. The feeling of present anger is just not there anymore. There is caring now, and not resentment.
She also HAS discussed her feelings on the matter with me. We had several serious R discussions as part of our piecing, and I did get a lot of insight into her prior state of mind.
It is the scars I bear from years of living in the shadow of that anger that cause my issues with feeling like "taking". I simply can't do that anymore. As much as now it's receiving rather than taking, it's still difficult, because I would prefer to share instead of receive if that makes sense.
You'll have to take it on faith that our current ML does not make her angry. She doesn't resent me at this point. She has convinced herself that my changes have made me someone new, perhaps that's how she's wiped the slate in her own mind. I'm not going to pretend that the years of hurt have been erased on her part, they haven't. I have done a good job of not backsliding however. I "get it" and have embraced what she needs from me. I intellectually also understand the acceptance and no expectations. It's simply at odds with my needs, and those needs may be "mission critical" to me, to use my IC's language.
she is very definitely upset and suppressing the expression of anger, which probably originated somewhere and sometime else; a learned coping mechanism that you are having to deal with.
Yes, she is angry with her parents. Lots of suppressed anger there. She had some disfunctional prior relationships that left her with more anger. She also certainly accumulated some anger over the course of our marriage. She describes her current state of mind as "how she's always been, for as long as she can remember". She copes well however, she's not one to lay in bed all day or get paralyzed by depression. She manages to be happy once in a while, and that's what I live for. It's magical when her mood is good. She's very smart and self-aware, has her situation more or less understood, and chooses not to deal with it.
From every thing I know, it likely extends from that fear you mention at the end of the post, that once something starts, the “never enough” feeling is something that she sees as something that she cannot control and it just spirals down from there.
Yes, the IC nailed it. In discussing it with W she said "yes, I've told you that, you already knew that" Sadly, I did not. I wasn't able to understand it until the IC framed it for me. It's not a base of operation that I can identify with.
The one thing she can control is your “want” to feel wanted or desired. Reading your later post, she can also control by not emailing or texting you. If there is all this fear, then it also there when she does not meet the expectation (hers or yours) by failing to text, no matter what the reason. “Why bother”if she's already “in trouble” for not doing what she said she would do.
You lost me here, please expand. You're saying that she can exert some control over me by not meeting my expectations and keeping my "want" going. Wouldn't that just make her feel worse?
And therein lays the problem. To paraphrase or quote YODA: “Do or do not. There is no try.”
...
See, it sounds like you are doing something without actually committing to anything. And that is the point.
True, as mentioned, I did give it up for 14 months. I never mentioned it or made an overture in that time. From my perspective, that was a commitment. When I stopped commenting / pursuing more recently, she got upset thinking that she was failing me and started crying. It didn't seem productive to continue to pretend I wasn't interested in sex.
I simply cannot have no sexual expectations and be true to myself. We all have limits, that's something I know I can't do. If there's a line where I give up, that's where it's drawn. Being in a relationship with someone who I am attracted to, but am not sexual with makes me dark, it negatively effects all other aspects of my life, and to me, that tradeoff is not worth it.
Here is a quick test. If your wife told you tonight, when she gets home, that she never wants to have sex with you again and wants to stay married to you…would you still love her? And how would she know?
Captain, that's a *very* loaded question which I'm sure you appreciate. You told me yourself that we all have a line. That would cross mine. If my wife got sick and was physically unable to have sex with me, I wouldn't give it another thought, I would stay and love her. At that point I would have no expectation.
If she came home and told me that she was going to choose not to have sex with me ever again for no other reason than she didn't feel like it, I could not stay married to her. I wouldn't be doing either of us any favors by agreeing to that. I *would* still love her, of course I would, but I couldn't stay married, and those are two separate things.
I would imagine that if I came home and told her that I decided I wouldn't spend quality time talking to her ever again, she would not stay married to me either, and I wouldn't hold that against her. How could I? I know how important that is to her, and it's within my power to give. To withhold it and expect to stay married seems wrong.
Now to GB90's point, I could choose to view her lack of desire like a serious physical illness that precludes sex. Unfortunately, I couldn't live with that self-deception. I would wake up each day seeing through that and viewing it as a willful withholding, which in fact, I believe it would be.
Acceptance” is going to be a real challenge. I know. I am in and out of this “acceptance” myself.
Yes, this is what keeps me up at night. I have the opportunity to participate in this marriage which promises to be pretty damn good along many dimensions. There is one that is problematic. If I leave the marriage, there is absolutely no guarantee that I will find "a package" as good as the one I have now. Maybe I can find someone to be with where the sex will be outstanding, but if the rest of it isn't as good as what I have now, I probably won't be as happy in the long haul. If the rest of the marriage were bad, this would be easy. I'm agonizing over it because the rest is good.
The problem you face and will continue to face is that while she may know you *love her,* she also knows you don't accept her because you want her to be a certain way (your expectation) and she feels she can't be the way you expect.
To make things worse, I have faith in her to the point that I believe she *can* address these issues. I believe that if she works on her anger and self esteem, she will be a happier and more fulfilled person with or without me, and I do want that for her, from a very sincere place of love.
If someone you love woke up every day and slammed their hand in the door, could you stand by and watch that? Wouldn't it tear you apart every day knowing how unnecessary it is, and that the person could choose to stop doing that?
And there is another blind spot for you. You expect your wife to “accept” you. It is easy if your views and hers are pretty much aligned. Not so easy if they aren’t. My impression is that you don't feel very accepted right now.
Actually, I *do* feel that she accepts me. That's not what's driving my angst.
Keep your awareness of what you are telling yourself. It will guide you through. The tough part is doing it in the moment and 'on the fly.'
Yes, I'm having a hard time reconciling and accepting. I'm hopeful the IC can help to guide me through. I don't want divorce, I believe it permanently hurts the kids, and they're at a bad age for it. On top of that, I love my W and DO want to stay married. It's a very difficult tradeoff of things that are very important to me weighed against accepting what my W is and isn't able or willing to give. I'm not at the point of accepting that she's powerless to address her issues, and THAT is my problem. I realize that's not up to me to decide. She needs to do it for herself, not for me.
Accuray
[/quote]
Accuray,
On someone else's thread you asked me to comment here if I had any other thoughts about your sitch. I've been thinking about it, and thinking about it and thinking about it. I haven't read your complete thread but enough to know that it seems that your W and I have similarities.
First, I have never been sexually abused but was raised by a controlling mother who was physically abusive and believed that children were to be seen and not heard. I was to have no feelings about anything other than what she allowed me to feel.
My H was in a sex starved marriage. It wasn't that I didn't enjoy sex but that it was difficult to get "in the mood." There were alot of inside-my-head roadblocks that I had to hurdle to get to that place of being able to just relax and enjoy. Sometimes a couple of glasses of wine helped. I was conditioned that sex was bad, anything done for pleasure was not acceptable and I felt that I was never good enough and had a huge fear of rejection. These were not things that my H made me feel, these are just things that were in my head. I have told my IC that it always seemed there were 3 of us in the marital bed, me, H and my mother.
I wanted to be sexy, provocative, hot but couldn't reconcile that with the good girl I was supposed to be.
We never really talked about all this. Sad, huh? I tried to convince my self that it really wasn't that important but it was very important to him. I sent him the message that if he really loved me he would not push me to have sex. He never forced but he would be very frustrated and sometimes angry.
I did often believe that the only reason he would touch me, hug me, kiss me was because he wanted sex. I would rebuff those overtures. I love my H, I just wasn't able to show it in the way he needed.
But what happened between us is not as important as what was going on in my head. Through counseling that I have been able to face all these anxieties and begin to believe that we are meant to be sexual beings and to enjoy sex. That having sex does not make me "bad." If your W is not able or willing to do that work, I'm not sure what you can do that will make your sitch acceptable to you.
I hope this might provide some insight.
Now, I have a request. Could you read my sitch and give some input? You posted on NLW's thread re How to Save your Marriage Without Talking About It and men feeling shame around not being a good provider. I have that book and will have to go back and re-read it. I think that may be at the heart of our problem and I don't know if it can be fixed.
Anyway, thanks.
Accuray:
I'll get back to you after Christmas. I hope you have a good one.
The Captain
To make things worse, I have faith in her to the point that I believe she *can* address these issues. I believe that if she works on her anger and self esteem, she will be a happier and more fulfilled person with or without me, and I do want that for her, from a very sincere place of love.
She can but she doesn't want to for whatever reason. Expectations, my friend, expectations. You can't make her want to change, you can't control her. What can you control? What is your boundary here? What are you willing to accept? Take emotion out of it and write it in a simple statement.
When you ________ I feel _________. I want ________.
I see the hesitation to label your wife.
Especially if the label has connotations of mental instability.
I'm not saying your wife is insane, but she definitely sounds like she is suffering from chronic depression, a recognized physiological disease.
As mentioned before you said that you think she "can" she just "won't". Let me ask you this do you think she chooses to be miserable? You said she suffers from low self esteem and feelings of worthlessness. Do you think she chooses these?
Im not saying I can diagnose your wife, I'm not there. All I'm saying is that she shows a lot of the symptoms of chronic depression.
My best recommendation is to keep filling up her love tank, to the point where she believes that you do want what is best for her. Then convince her to see a therapist about her depression.
The weird thing about depression is that for some of us, it may come down to something as simple as, bad nutrition, or an easily fixable hormonal imbalance.
As is often the case, it's often more than just about sex.
You're definitely not going to cure whatever emotional road block she has in her head, she shows no willingness to do it either. So I think you should work on her overall happiness. Maybe this will put her on the path to get the help she really needs.
You can't change her, but you can create the type of environment where she feels it's the right thing to get help.
Accuray--I just wanted to stop in and say hi and see how you are doing. I hope you had a Merry Christmas.
Thanks Greenblue and Hopeful, I'm out of the country but will provide a better response when I return.
One thing I'm thinking about is the fact that relationship books all tend to stress the importance of asking to have out needs met. Some go so far as to call it a "right" within the context of marriage.
The same books also state that it's imperative to accept your spouse for who they are without expecting any changes from them.
This is obviously a contradiction in advice if your spouse is not willing or able to meet your needs without changing, and this contradiction goes unaddressed in the books -- but you can't do both!
My W and I had a good discussion the other night and I brought up this contradiction. She said she faced the same dillemma -- her need for quality time wasn't being met but she felt it was her job to accept the fact that I wasn't meeting that need. She resolved that contradiction by having an affair and asking me for divorce. How do I resolve it?
Accuray
No offense but I think that's a smokescreen to not work on her own intimacy problems.
Nonetheless the best way to deal with this is to give her more quality time.
Either:
1. You'll remove the excuse.
2. She'll get what she needs to actually want to return love.
My problem with this is that she may be asking for something that is physically impossible. If you have 6 free hours, give her 4 and she demands 8, how can you meet that?
On the other hand she denies you loving physical contact. She provides 0 you ask for 2 and calls you crazy despite the fact she may be able to provide 4.
Regardless, if you give her the time she wants will that help with her feelings of inadequacy, or is this another temporary plug in a massive hole?
Hope you have a good trip.
You're confronted with the illogic of your wife's requests or the apparent contradiction of the books you've read. To use a metaphor from my generation, its a bit like "f**king for virginity."
With regard to change and acceptance, there is a bit of a mind game and it can be tough to see how it can work (it does not always work out the way you might think). You have to look at this through the eyes of language.
Language (specifically your language) gives you an "occurring world." How the world occurs for you, how you categorize and catalog it, tell yourself what is happeneing and what it means, all of it occurs only through language.
No language, no occurring world 9at least for you).
So, let's tackle "change." Whenever "change" is what is needed (I selected the word "need" intentionally which I will get to in a second), it is always change from something (the past) to something (the expectation of a result different from the past). This change has a common thread...the past.
"Change," as a specific outcome, causes persistence. By referencing the very thing to be changed, that thing tends to persist. The expectation can be a killer when it is unfulfilled (no change or not enough change).
I selected the word "need" intentionally for two reasons. First, you have described your POV as a "need" for sex. Actually, no it isn't really. You need sufficient oxygen, you need sufficient water and you need sufficient food without the presence of contaminants to survive. Even though there is a sexual drive hardwired into your lower brain functions. You can survive without sex. The choice of the word gives you a way the world occurs for you.
Now what about "acceptance." It is allow things to be exactly the way they are and exactly the way they are not. It has nothing to do with "change" or the past or even some future expectation. In acceptance, the "problem" and the need to change disappear.
I'm going to leave it at that so you can think about that.
The Captain
...If you have 6 free hours, give her 4 and she demands 8, how can you meet that?...
My take is a little different.
My suggestion would be to give her the time you can and maturely explain why that is all the time you can give her. If she complains, maturely and calmly explain your position and let her know that you are trying your best.
I often feel that we underestimate other people's ability to grasp and undertand topics, if they are explained in a away that avoids emotion-charged confrontation. Then again, some subjects are just frightening to some.
With luck, one should soon be having mature communications on relationship subjects. That in turn should allow for a lot of "needs" to be expressed. Those needs might not be immediately acted on by a spouse, but you never know and it never hurts to ask as long as there is no covert contract involved in the asking or bringing up of the topic.
Good luck
YAH
I only object to her using this as an excuse to not express love to him, and for the affair.
I think Accuray needs to balance a fine line between working more on providing the quality time she needs, and not letting her use this as an excuse to further push him away.
Going back to her self loathing, I am reminded of Schnarch. She is looking for emotional fusion to make her self happy. (in other words she demands you make her feel happy with quality time). unfortunately it is very unlikely you will ever provide enough. So she resents this and wonders if anybody else could ever provide it. Thus her WAW stage.
She has now returned but probably still doesn't understand why being back in a fused state is not meeting her needs.
Don't get me wrong your wife values you, otherwise she wouldn't have started having sex with you in order not to lose you.
It's my worry though that as she fails to receive the happiness and quality time she expects from you, she'll start wondering if its worth it to continue with this "obligation" she has.
Instead Schnarch in his book passionate marriage states that before they can love someone else and provide for their needs, they need to find their own inner happiness. Once she loves herself and feels loved it'll be easier to show you love.
So yes it is important for you to express love in your love language, but she needs to provide a good foundation of personal happiness to begin with.
That's why I keep coming back to her issues with depression, just some thoughts.
Thanks Guys,
I've introduced confusion -- W is not saying she's not getting the quality time she needs now -- she is, and says her needs are fully met. She was simply saying that she appreciated the dilemma between acceptance and having your needs met when she decided to have the affair and leave me. The quality time absence is no longer an issue.
Will post more later
Accuray
Huh???
All I can say is keep giving her more love....
Thanks everyone! Painful that I've been away and not able to respond to all the great feedback I've been getting here. I went on a family vacation. Overall it went very well, W and I had some ups and downs and unfortunately it didn't end on a great note.
Yesterday morning we woke up and I gave W a hug in bed, we tend to do that every morning. After a few minutes W said "do you mind if I read my book now?" Since we had nothing to do all day where we were, I figured we both had all day to read or lay around or do whatever we wanted, so I was a bit taken aback by the fact that W felt the need to start reading right then. Now the other side of that is that I'm acting crazy. So she wants to read her book and she's done cuddling, big deal! I see that side of it too. In any case, I didn't say anything at the time but W felt I was a bit "off" for the rest of the day. Last night, she was very nice to me, we had a good talk and ML.
Woke up this morning and she let me have it. Adversarial attitude as soon as I woke up. Asked me what was going on yesterday morning. I told her, admitted I was acting crazy and apologized. She didn't respond at all, but was clearly stewing. I asked her to say what she was thinking and she said "no, it won't help, you won't like it."
Now part of our piecing was to make new vows to each other -- one of them was to be open and honest, and not to withhold when we are feeling upset. Either "out with it", or let the other person know when you will be ready to share. W tried to re-write that agreement on the spot that she'll only share if she thinks it will help and I called BS on that.
After about an hour, she said that she seems to hurt my feelings every day and it doesn't seem to be getting better. She said that when she confronts me on that, I deny it. I listened to that and validated how she felt.
To say that she hurts my feelings every day is an exaggeration. I will own that as part of recovering from the affair, I'm more sensitive than usual. A couple days before Christmas she told me I was "looking round" which I didn't appreciate. On Christmas morning she yelled at me because the way she was laying in bed with me was giving her a headrush. I was hurt by that because historically, she would verbally attack me and get nasty for no reason. I'd ask her how her day was and she'd go off on me. When we were packing for vacation, she was getting frantic trying to get out of the house (never a good time for W). I asked her if there was anything I could do to help and she snapped "do whatever you want!".
So yes, I guess there is a pattern where she's making me upset, but it's not like it's all in my head and I'm imagining something based on some way she looked at me.
The issue, of course, is that this feeds into her fear that she can't make me happy, that nothing she does is ever good enough, and that all she'll do is let me down. That was her "exit excuse". I find it very hard to reconcile, because I really don't ask for much -- don't cheat on me, don't be mean or nasty to me, and have sex with me about once per week. I would also like her to work on figuring out how to enjoy sex, and to work on her overall self-esteem and anger issues.
We're on separate flights home, but I definitely feel like I'm leaning over the abyss again.
In terms of the great feedback I've been getting:
Labug: I still don't understand your distinction between setting boundaries and having expectations. If you set a boundary you "expect" it to be respected, right? What's the difference? It just seems to be another way of stating a need. Please expand.
Greenblue: "Crazy" implies a lack of recognition of your condition. W knows she has issues, she just chooses to cope with them rather than work on dealing with them. So yes, in effect, she is choosing to feel the way she does, because the alternative of pursuing therapy is available to her. Some people can't afford that route, she's in a position to be able to do it, so living with her condition is indeed a choice. I have been working on overall happiness, believe me, I've but everything into it. She has told me multiple times that her love tank is full and she's getting everything she wants/needs from me. She just wants me to be happy and accept her as she is. That's a reasonable request. I just find it hard to accept living with someone who's not happy -- she's unpredictable in that she's up one day and down the next, and it's hard to relax and feel comfortable and happy living in the shadow of that. It keeps me on edge, and on edge is not happy. I will continue to work on it. I'm very confident that the new IC I found will help, and the fact that she's agreed to see him with me is huge, I can't wait. He warned me that he'll likely throw me under the bus to make her comfortable and to get her to trust, so I know the first session will be hard on me, but that's OK.
Captain: Although that post was very deep, I have been pondering it. I agree that I do not "need" sex in a Maslow's hierarchy sense of the word. I am using the word "need" in the context of the relationship books I've been reading -- maybe a desire would be more appropriate. It's a desire that you would like to see fulfilled to feel comfortable and happy in your relationship. Quoting from "When Good People Have Affairs":
"In fact, being needy can be a sign of health and strength if what it really means is that the other person knows what they need, and that what they need is appropriate, and they ask for it. That's not needy. It's called being effective.
And it's not any less effective just because you don't feel like giving your spouse or your lover what they need. People have a right to get their needs met -- for affection, for feeling loved, respected, listened to, taken care of."
So a central tenant of many of the books I've read echos this sentiment -- you have a right to have your needs met in a relationship, and you owe it to your partner to vocalize your needs -- otherwise they will never be met.
The same books talk about the importance of accepting your spouse as-is, without expectation of change.
Now if you ask to have your needs met and the other person obliges, there is no issue -- that's healthy and productive providing your needs are realistic.
If you vocalize your needs and the other person doesn't want to or can't meet them, then you have the contradiction, your "right" to have your needs met is being violated, yet you need to accept the situation anyway.
I've found precious little guidance out of that spot other than "suck it up, too bad for you".
For clarity BEFORE my W dropped the bomb, she said she faced this same contradiction, although she failed to ask to have her needs met, she just assumed I was unable or unwilling, which, as it turns out, was a bad assumption!
CURRENTLY I have been meeting my W's needs, with the exception of accepting the fact that she's resigned herself to be perpetually unhappy.
WRT sex, I am getting sex currently, so that's not my need per se. I would like to "make love" instead of "receive sex", and that's a different thing as everyone on this board knows.
Greenblue: She's not looking for fusion -- in fact, she really professes to expect nothing from me and to accept me as-is. She does honestly try to live her life that way. She does not look for me to make her feel better, in fact, she tells me that I can't, there's nothing I can do because it's her issue. W's vision of marriage is actually that we don't "need" each other at all -- that we each stand independently 100%, and that the marriage provides benefits over and above that. In that view, she is espousing differentiation per Shnarch. If anyone wants some fusion here it's me, not her.
She does not "demand" quality time. She simply told me that's what fills up her love tank. If I don't provide it, she doesn't complain, she'll just vote with her feet. She's more complicated than the portrayals in the relationship books, because she's a contradiction of independence and self confidence, versus low self-esteem and anger. She needs help from time to time, but to ask anyone for it is the ultimate admission of inadequacy and that makes her sink deeper.
If she's drowning and you throw her a rope, she'll be pissed at you, because she "should" be able to save herself. How dare you imply that she needed your assistance. At the same time, she recognizes that she was drowning and that if you didn't help her, she'd be dead. She's very aware of the illogic of this, she's just not willing to work on it. When I see her suffering, it's very hard for me not to offer help, but when I do, it makes her feel worse and then get angry at me for extending a hand.
I have to train myself not to offer help -- either provide it without offering, or back off and let her suffer in peace.
Accuray
I don't know what to say, but it sounds like damn if u do and damn if u don't.
I wish my H would some kind of effort in our marriage that you are trying to put in yours.
Accuray
Trust me when I say that my wife acts very much in the same way. Your example of throwing a rope to save her, and then her getting mad because you did really resonated to me.
Whether she accepts help or not does not change the fact that she is probably suffering from depression. That's like saying someone doesn't have cancer because they refuse chemo.
Staying with that metaphor it's like she chooses to self medicate with pain killers her cancer in order to avoid a scary surgery or difficult chemo. The fact that she chooses to pick fights with you is not necessarily your fault, but her using anger to relieve the depression she is feeling. For some (to include my W) picking a fight is easier than accepting sadness. You in essence get scapegoated. When my W is irritable out of nowhere it clues me in to know that she must not be feeling too well.
In my opinion your best course of action is to not get involved in her anger, let her calm down and then tell her that anger does not solve anything, but just makes things worse.
She may start saying that she is not good for you, because she knows no other way. In that case calmly and lovingly tell her that you want to build a good marriage, and that anger is not part of one. It's going to be hard, but it's something you can both work on together.
Trust me the first couple of times you'll probably get more anger. Just stay calm, and remind her that you are both working together towards a good marriage.
She also needs to learn better ways of self soothing. When she is feeling down make sure she gets lots of space to work through her own concerns.
Right now it is easier to pick fights when she feels too down. It is her coping mechanism. Take away yourself from that equation. It'll be rocky since she will be angry at you for taking away her coping mechanism of being angry at you. (crazy huh). IMHO it's for the best though, eventually she'll have to learn to cope without it or she'll have to find a healthier way of dealing with it.
One more thing my W has described herself at times as emotion less that nothing makes her feel happy or sad. This is again a smokescreen, because dealing with the issues is too hard. She only says this when I can tell she is seriously depressed. She blames the lack of passion on this feeling. When I read about your W it reminds me of mine in this sense.
I think that it's not because she is incapable of emotion but because she has shut down to keep out bad emotions she can't deal with. Passionate love is one of those emotions being shut out. People suffering from depression believe nothing will ever work out, that they will never get what they need, and if they do it'll just be pulled from underneath their feet. So they block it, you can't miss what you never had kinda deal.
I think schnarch said you like being needed, but you are too afraid to need yourself.
My W too picked fights during vacations, usually towards the end. It's like she was afraid of enjoying herself, like she didn't deserve it, like the world was off somehow. So she created conflict to realign everything and prove once again that good things don't happen to her.
Thanks Greenblue,
I still don't think you have my W quite identified yet. She doesn't pick fights with me, she rarely does something specifically to get a rise out of me. The dynamic is more that she's insensitive. She says or does things without really thinking about their impact. It's more of a lack of compassion than malice.
My W tends to choose the sadness over the fight. She also does not describe herself as emotionless and she does not direct her anger at me, its more like I get hit by the shrapnel.
She told me tonight that she doesn't want to be open and honest because when she is she risks upsetting me. She says that its easier for her to be unhappy than for me to be unhappy. I pointed out that it doesn't always need to be a tradeoff, that if we discuss it we can find middle ground.
Captain, I thought about your suggestion of ceasing sexual overtures. Since we have the agreement that she initiates, I couldn't do it without discussion. I told her we should eliminate sex until Valentines Day and focus on other elements of the relationship. She was very uncomfortable with that but I insisted.
We will see what happens, I hope it relieves pressure and expectations for both of us. It's a sacrifice but feels worth it.
Accuray
Labug: I still don't understand your distinction between setting boundaries and having expectations. If you set a boundary you "expect" it to be respected, right? What's the difference? It just seems to be another way of stating a need. Please expand.
You can expect it but it may not happen. What you can expect is what you can control, which is your reaction to what the other person does. If they respect your boundary, you can offer positive reinforcement or do nothing.
If a clearly set boundary is breached, the expectation is that you will follow through with whatever consequence you set. Boundaries are useless if they are not protected.
Perhaps this thread
Boundaries will make it clearer.
Good luck.
Thanks Labug,
I read the boundaries thread, I really don't think I have an issue there. W knows where my boundaries are and I'm very vocal about them.
I would like her to:
1). Address her depression and unhappiness issues
2). Find a way to enjoy having sex so she can be a partner and not someone who just gives.
3). Make some effort to try the things I enjoy so that we can enjoy them together, as I embrace the things she enjoys
Since she has told me she's not going to do any of those, she has set her own boundary.
If I set a boundary back, it becomes a game of chicken where the "loser" walks away resentful and the "winner" has a hollow victory with a begrudging partner.
That's the challenge with boundaries, you can get a boundary right back, then it becomes who is most willing to walk away? That person has more power and wins. That's the bottom line
Accuray
What were your consequences? Without consequences, you're just hoping.
It is very important to set consequences that we are willing to enforce. If you are setting boundaries in a relationship, and you are not yet at a point where you are ready to leave the relationship - then don't say that you will leave. You can say that you will start considering all of your options including leaving - but do not state that you will do something that you are not ready yet to do. To set boundaries and not enforce them just gives the other person an excuse to continue in the same old behavior.
Don't set a boundary back, unless you like that game. You have a boundary that protects you, there is a consequence, you enforce the boundary. That's always the hard part.
This is tough stuff, I struggle with it too.
Labug,
My post above was confusing, here are the boundaries that I enforce under threat of leaving the relationship:
1) No contact with either OM
2) If you are upset or your needs are not being met, you need to be willing to talk about it. No keeping it in with silent resentment.
3) If you set my expectations by telling me that you will do something, then either do it as agreed, or let me know you will not be doing it. Don't just silently let it go.
4) Maintain sex as part of marriage, with best effort to maintain a once weekly frequency
5) Be faithful -- we have a specific "contract" with regard to what is over the line. If we feel we are tempted, we agree to discuss the temptation before we act on it.
I also have minor boundaries -- "no dogs allowed", when the cat throws up on the furniture or carpet every day, I expect it to be cleaned up as soon as it's noticed, versus being allowed to sit for a couple days.
The "big five" are my line where I'm ready to walk. I readily enforce these. She tried to re-write #2 while we were on vacation, and again tried to last night. I did not back down. She also violated #3 a couple weeks ago -- we have individual bank accounts. She was short and needed to write a big check, so she wrote it on mine and agreed to make a deposit to cover it before it would be cashed. She didn't and I got a $75 overdraft fee. We discussed that in the context of a boundary as well.
The three items I cited above:
1). Address her depression and unhappiness issues
2). Find a way to enjoy having sex so she can be a partner and not someone who just gives.
3). Make some effort to try the things I enjoy so that we can enjoy them together, as I embrace the things she enjoys
Are really more "strong desires" than boundaries at this point. They haven't *yet* crossed the line where they are walkaway factors, but having all three out there certainly stand to set the marriage on a negative trajectory from which it may not recover.
As you can see, none of those are things that I can control, they all require action on her part. As I hope you've seen in my posts, I'm wrestling with how much of this (or all of it) I can just accept and be the best "me" I can be. If I decide I just can't accept it, then it becomes "mission critical" and at some point becomes worthy of a boundary or ultimatum. I'm not there yet, but the pain threshold is definitely hard to deal with right now.
I lived with these three factors for a long time -- but my coping mechanism was to withdraw and to find happiness in other GAL-type activities. In order to DB, I had to seriously re-invest in the marriage emotionally. It's that reinvestment that makes accepting these things difficult now. My W has set a boundary that if I withdraw again, she's done. Therefore, my challenge is to keep my head in the game and muscle through these issues, either learning to accept them, or figuring out how to motivate her to address them, which I realize I may never be able to do.
Hopefully that's a better explanation of where I stand WRT boundaries.
Accuray
I got a bit of an ultimatum tonight: "If this is going to work, you need to accept me as I am and not expect me to change"
In DB fashion I asked "What does it look like when I am accepting you as you are? What am I doing to indicate that acceptance? How will you know we're there?"
She said that my happiness will not be dependent upon what she does or does not do, that I won't be upset because of something she has or has not done, and I'll stop talking about addressing her sadness.
I believe it was my "no sex until Valentine's Day" plan that provoked this. It's only been a few days, but the self-control that "no sex" implies is attractive to me for now. That does allow me not to be dependent upon her. She won't have the ability not to meet my expectations because I won't have any. We'll see how I feel after 8-10 days when I usually start going nuts, but for now, it feels good.
She's viewing this as a step backwards and it's making her uncomfortable.
With regard to her ultimatum, I listened to it. I told her that I do love her unconditionally, but that accepting sadness in someone you love is challenging.
What I did not say is that it sounds like she's asking for a consequence-free marriage -- who wouldn't want that? I'll do whatever I want, justify it by saying "that's just who I am" and you'll agree not to be disappointed by it. Oh boy, I would love that too. Didn't you have an affair because I wasn't meeting your needs? Now you're asking me to accept the fact that you won't meet my needs, and to ensure you never feel guilty for not doing it.
I don't know, I'm not sure how to respond to that. Maybe I'll leave it for MC.
Accuray
You have quite the conundrum.
I have a book entitled Depression Fallout The Impact of Depression on Couples and What You Can Do to Preserve the Bond (sheesh-long title) I've only skimmed it, so can't really recommend it but you might want to look at some of the online reviews. Also google Storied Mind.
Accuray, I think your idea to leave it for MC is a good one. She may be nervous with the MC coming up. I would defer responding to her ultimatum and try to keep status quo for a while, maybe several appointments or several months, so MC can have a chance. It's huge that she's willing to go, and I think it's because this counselor seems to "get" her and is saying the right things to not scare her off. Try to be patient and absorb the feelings that the MC digs up, and let time do its work. It'll be hard. I was "thrown under the bus" too, and understood the need for it, so I was not defensive and I think this helped us make progress.
Thanks Labug and Adinva, it's so helpful to get your feedback, I'm hoping that you will continue to point things out to me that I'm not thinking about the right way.
We have established a routine that when we wake up, we hug. If W wakes up first, she wakes me up to cuddle a bit, and I may then go back to sleep or wake up. We've been doing this for several months now, every day.
This morning I woke up and W wasn't there. I went looking for her, if she was in the spare room that would usually indicate that she's mad at me. She wasn't there. I went downstairs and found her on her work laptop. I asked what was going on, she said she had to do some work "is that OK with you?" Yes, that's ok, I just didn't know what happened.
I went back upstairs and tried to lay down again but at that point knew I wasn't going back to sleep. Went back downstairs and asked W if something was wrong or if there was anything she wanted to talk about. She said that the people she works with overseas were online and she needed to take care of some things. I pointed out that last night I had to catch up from vacation work-wise and did about 4 hours, why didn't she do it then? She said she needed to do it now. I said "Ok, I understand, thanks for explaining" and went and took a shower.
Later in the morning she said that she's "better" work-wise in the morning than at night (despite the fact that she frequently works at night). She was sorry that she made me "so upset" this morning, and her eyes were teary. I said I wasn't upset, I was just confused and didn't know what was going on. I said that we had a routine, today was different and I didn't understand why and wanted to know what was going on. She said "no, I made you upset, and it's OK that you're upset".
So this is a good example of what's been going on. She changed our routine out of the blue with no explanation. When I asked her to explain, she took that to be a complaint, and that I was "very upset", so she must have let me down and she's a bad person. Trying to convince her otherwise was futile. It's hard because anything that *may* be interpreted as me being upset will be. I can't ask a question without going to DEFCON 1.
This is very hard to navigate, I'm not sure what to do. I need to be "allowed" to be minorly annoyed once in a while. I'm going to give myself an ulcer trying to avoid anything that might be construed as disappointment in the worst possible interpretation.
I'm also getting the sense that she's feeling that if all she does is disappoint me, this isn't going to work. When I try to have a productive discussion with her, it's interpreted to mean that she's gravely disappointed me, when all I'm looking for is clarification or discussion.
I'm feeling painted into a corner and I'm not sure how to navigate this.
Accuray
Was your relationship like this when you were dating, when you were first married? Or has it changed over the years? Did you walk this tightrope back then or was she easier to be happy with?
Oh no, it was nothing like this when we were dating and first got married. At that point she was happy, easy going, and would do things with me, like skiing, swimming, kayaking, rollerblading (back then), biking, etc. Sex was fun, she was engaged. Over time, she slowly gave up doing all those things. Now I can't even get her to go to the beach, she claims the sound of the waves bothers her.
Like anyone, she changed over the years, but I think more dramatically than most. I didn't perceive how badly things had gotten however, because she wouldn't tell me when she was upset. She believed she had a "duty" to be a good wife and not to complain or ask for anything, just to accept whatever I brought to the table. I saw that she was angry / upset but she'd never admit it had anything to do with me so I assumed it was job-related stress.
After the bomb she agreed to talk to me about how she was feeling and a veil was lifted on a lot of things.
That's the long answer, the short answer is that no, she was not always like this and our relationship started out easy. The fond memories and feelings I carry from that time are definitely part of the fuel that keeps me going. If she was always like this I'd have no basis for complaint!
Accuray
If you find yourself having the same fight over and over again, despite different circumstances, it may be that this is the way she copes with stress.
She seems to always get angry at you, only to self deprecate once you call her out on her behavior, then you feel bad and apologize.
Afterwards you feel frustrated. Why because you feel had. I think it's really like this.
She acts odd because of her depression, then lashes out at you because of it, you call her out so she does the "oh woe is me" routine to make you look like you are a terrible person, and remove any responsibility and Scrutiny away from her.
It's a defense mechanism. It's how she blocks any pressure to work on herself.
I'm not insinuating that your w is a bad manipulative person. On the contrary she is hurting but is unwilling or scared to deal with it. So she deflects.
The key is in breaking the cycle. When she self hates how about saying
"you're not a bad person, but what you did was wrong/uncalled for/mean"
If she gets upset at that comment just challenge her original action again.
As if to say you can't get mad at me over a promise you broke.
Just repeat that you don't think she is a bad person, but that she made a mistake.
Don't be surprised if she gets very upset, tell her you would like to discuss things but not if you are going to yell at each other.
I think the key point is to stay on topic and remaining calm when she goes into DEFCON 1. Show her that anger is a fruitless communication technique.
Yes anger is a communication technique, just not a very pleasant one.
Thanks Greenblue,
We never yell at each other, and she doesn't get overtly angry, she gets sad (you're upset because I can never do the right thing with you) .
Then, she walks a fine line between implying I'm impossible to please on one hand, and that she's a bad, inconsiderate or damaged person on the other.
Reflecting on your post, she starts out with "you're impossible to please and your expectations make me upset". When I take your approach and try to calmly diffuse the situation she goes to "your expectations are fine but I don't make you happy or I can't make you happy".
As I've said before, I don't have crazy expectations, she's manufacturing that and pinning it on me by reading the worst and most severe interpretation into what I say. I do have some basic expectations which the therapists all tell me are perfectly reasonable and sometimes she does disappoint me on those. Since I know shes hyper-sensitive I try to avoid pointing those out unless she's nearing a boundary.
I do feel manipulated but to your point I don't think its malicious, its a coping mechanism. I just want it to stop so I'm not always the bad guy by making her feel inadequate.
Thanks again Greenblue.
In the spirit of trying something different I was considering going on the offensive when this starts up and driving the situation rather than trying to placate her. "Yes, when you get out of bed on the weekend and break our routine without saying a word about it, you're being inconsiderate and I want that to stop"
Thoughts about that approach?
Thoughts about my no sex strategy?
Accuray
I think it's important to call them out, but of course always with tact.
There's a big difference between calling someone inconsiderate, and saying a particular action drives you apart. In the case of her getting up by herself let her know it sends the wrong signal, whether she meant to or not. This way she'll feel less attacked.
In my sitch I use humor to diffuse the situation but I realize every M is different.
The no sex strategy needs to be properly explained, tell her you realize she feels burdened by your demands, and that it might be better you two build a friendship first.
Often enough sex is used as a tool of control and manipulation. Once again not calling your w names, but it's very easy to say I'm mad so you get no sex, or in your case no passion.
As of now she gives you sex, she doesn't give herself to you. See the difference?
In a way you are accepting scraps, you are taking whatever she decides to throw your way and are expected to be grateful for it. Instead you should focus on getting the sex you want, going no sex sends a powerful message that until she can be the passionate woman you desire you are not interested.
This may force her to reconsider if losing you is worth not tackling her demons.
Here's the catch, you have to be worth fighting for. She in her mind has to be so in love with you that the thought of possibly losing you over this becomes silly.
Right now she values you enough to toss some scraps at you whenever she is not stressed. Does she value you enough to let go of her own sexual hang ups?
Personally I'm in the early stages of being valuable to my W and showing her that she is loved by a wonderful man who knows and respects himself and her, but thats the theory I'm working on.
Good stuff Greenblue. I did explain the no sex strategy, I told her it was a source of tension and we don't need that right now, we can eliminate that for now and work on other things. She thought that eliminating sex was a step backwards, and that our sex life doesn't create any issues for her. She thinks that abstaining will make me very unhappy and she's worried about that.
I definitely see the different between giving me sex and giving herself to me. That was well explained in Passionate Marriage and I did discuss that with her. That lead to the "you don't accept me as I am" discussion.
In a way you are accepting scraps, you are taking whatever she decides to throw your way and are expected to be grateful for it. Instead you should focus on getting the sex you want, going no sex sends a powerful message that until she can be the passionate woman you desire you are not interested.
Yep. Although I haven't framed it in the context of the second sentence. I definitely haven't suggested I'm doing this because I'm expecting her to change. Maybe it's clearly implied, but if it is, that would feed right into "you don't accept me as I am", and that leads to "if this is going to work, you have to accept me as I am". That's her setting a boundary -- I'm not going to change and if you don't get with the program I'm gone.
Right now she values you enough to toss some scraps at you whenever she is not stressed. Does she value you enough to let go of her own sexual hang ups?
Personally I'm in the early stages of being valuable to my W and showing her that she is loved by a wonderful man who knows and respects himself and her, but that's the theory I'm working on.
Good stuff. She does not value me enough to let go of her sexual hangups, she's drawn a line there. She has on a couple of occasions let me try things that she wouldn't before, but within a couple days she'll circle back around and tell me how hard that was for her and how she really didn't like it at all, but she's willing to do it for me. (Uh yeah, no thanks!)
She's presented that if I demand something sexually she'll do it, but she won't enjoy it and it will permanently make her feel worse about herself, but if I want it, come get it. This doesn't have to do with any deviant sexual fantasies I'm trying to fulfill at her expense, it has to do with trying to engage her as a partner and let me please her versus me always be the one being pleased.
So that's strange -- she values me enough to do whatever I want for my benefit, but if I want to do something for her benefit, she'll walk away.
She'll do what I want if I ask, but will do it with a bad attitude and then circle back around and tell me how bad it was.
On the "no sex" front so far, it's been empowering. It's awesome not going to bed thinking that all the conditions are right, the table is set, and then have it not happen. Now I just don't worry about it and go to sleep. I spend no time wondering if it's going to happen because I know it's not. It's so different not having sex by choice versus not having sex because you've been denied. On the other hand, it hasn't been a full week yet -- we'll see how empowered I feel three weeks from now!
Accuray
Captain, if you're around you at one point suggested stopping having sex on my own terms. I wrestle with whether I'm doing the right thing and would appreciate your thoughts.
Accuray
That's because in her effort to avoid her issues she keeps pulling a bait and switch on you.
She gives, then let's you know she didn't like it.
This way she looks good for having tried, then can guilt you for having put her up to it, and prevent any future attempts.
Tell me if this statement makes any sense
"oh yes I'm willing to do it, but of you ask me to i will hate you for it"
Doesn't sound like she's very willing does it?
I think this is more scrap throwing, with the added bonus of getting another reason to guilt you.
Any and all apprehension to this new plan is just her freaking out because she realizes she can no longer control you with scraps.
This feeling you describe about wondering if everything will be aligned. I can empathize with that. I know what it means when you feel like there is more preconditions for sex than a space shuttle launch.
If you feel that you constantly have to watch what you say or do to get sex, then you are being controlled. Part of the reason many sources recommend a sex moratorium is because once the HD stops constantly bending over backwards and forwards trying to get sex, he can start focusing on truly enforcing his boundaries.
In other words you can truly take your wife to task on her actions once you stop worrying if you're going to get sex that night. It is truly liberating.
She needs to learn that not only are you worth more than scraps, but that you are done rolling over for them.
On the positive side you can now start giving her physical affection without the expectation of sex. Often enough LD spouses will complain that every hug and every kiss is an attempt to initiate. This can make the LD spouse paranoid and distrusting, removing the expectation often makes it easier for the spouse to see that you are showing love through hugs.
I suspect that when you have sex with your wife it must feel like she is a limp doll to both of you. For you it's obvious, she's just not into it. For her she probably feels that you are doing this to "meet your needs". She probably thinks if she doesn't put out you might go looking for another "doll" a prettier one with more interactive features.
She probably can't wrap her head around the notion that you want her. So while you are on a moratorium strive for nonsexual intimacy. Let her feel loved physically without sex. Let her know that you strive to feel close and connected, let her start feeling that connection and hopefully start craving it.
Hope that helps, let me know how things develop.
Thanks Greenblue, we're getting definitely closer on your analysis I think.
Often enough LD spouses will complain that every hug and every kiss is an attempt to initiate. This can make the LD spouse paranoid and distrusting, removing the expectation often makes it easier for the spouse to see that you are showing love through hugs.
She did complain about this back in August but we took care of that by agreeing that she will be the one to initiate sex and I will never do anything to escalate. That has honestly worked very well in terms of fostering non-sexual physical connection.
I suspect that when you have sex with your wife it must feel like she is a limp doll to both of you. For you it's obvious, she's just not into it. For her she probably feels that you are doing this to "meet your needs". She probably thinks if she doesn't put out you might go looking for another "doll" a prettier one with more interactive features.
It's not nearly that bad! I wouldn't put up with limp doll, that would be over my line. She does put some effort into it, and she does seem to want to make sure I enjoy it *sometimes*. On rare occasions it's really good. It depends where her head is. The worst part for me is when I tell her I enjoyed it or it was good, and she says "I'm glad you enjoyed it". She never says she enjoyed it too or agrees it was good. I confronted her about that a couple weeks ago and she said she felt like her feelings shouldn't matter because it's for me. I'm not sure what to make of that.
Now my MC said that some women just don't have a sex drive and there is nothing wrong with that. He was encouraging me to just accept it, or decide that I need to make an ultimatum and be prepared to leave, but he said I can't ride the fence of just being dissatisfied and pushing for more. If he's right, then I'm being a real bastard by not just accepting her for who she is, and I think about that too.
She probably can't wrap her head around the notion that you want her. So while you are on a moratorium strive for nonsexual intimacy. Let her feel loved physically without sex. Let her know that you strive to feel close and connected, let her start feeling that connection and hopefully start craving it.
Yes, that's the plan, thank you for articulating it for me, that's what I'm looking to do. She has said that she thought I would leave without sex, and I know because of her feeling "unworthy" she doesn't want to believe that I want her.
I also think she's scared to want me to some degree because of all it implies. She's probably looking at it as a lot to sign up for. I read on someone's thread, maybe Crimson's, how a lot of the LBS's tend to be achievers or perfectionists. Even if we don't turn our expectations toward our spouse, just being around us can be exhausting as they assume they are being judged and evaluated for everything. I know she feels that way and I have that effect on her. On a given weekend day, she might sit on the couch and read a book or watch TV, and I'll be outside working on the yard. Although I really don't care at all if she's working or not, the knowledge that I'm working undoubtedly makes her uneasy. Take that example and apply it to everything and achievers are a big pain in the ass to be married to.
I would like W to realize that she is more than adequate for me, I love her. I don't judge her the way I judge and measure myself. The MC seems to "get" this dynamic, and I'm hopeful he can help us work it out next week.
I understand why my personality type can be so hard, but I'm fundamentally a good, giving, honest person and I do believe this is a solveable issue.
Accuray
Accuray, I've read the post containing this
This morning I woke up and W wasn't there. I went looking for her, if she was in the spare room that would usually indicate that she's mad at me. She wasn't there. I went downstairs and found her on her work laptop. I asked what was going on, she said she had to do some work "is that OK with you?" Yes, that's ok, I just didn't know what happened.
several times and it bugs me every time. This would drive me crazy. I realize you have an agreement but it seems controlling to me. Talk more about that.
This would drive me crazy. I realize you have an agreement but it seems controlling to me. Talk more about that.
No way Labug...you would laugh if you knew me that anyone would accuse me of being controlling, I'm the opposite. I can see why you would read that into it however, it's all about how the conversation took place in terms of tone and expression.
This was more of a scenario like your spouse comes home from work every day at 7:00 at night, and tells you when they're going to be late.
One night you notice it's 8:00, they're still not home and you haven't heard from them. When you call them in that context, you're not being controlling if you're just concerned that something happened.
I didn't say "you're supposed to be in bed with me". I said, "why are you up so early on a weekend, what's going on?"
Does that make sense?
In my post-bomb phase, it was very important to me to take a really critical look at myself and understand what made me hard to live with -- how my actions contributed to the fall of our marriage. I really tried to put it all on the table and look at it objectively. I read books like "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Hold Onto Your Nuts" and I did not see myself at all in the "nice guy" profile. I have other issues and problems, but controlling is not one of them.
I have always viewed myself as being very independent, and when I got married 15 years ago, I was looking for a woman who would also be independent and wouldn't rely on me to make her happy, but would instead be someone I could share happiness with.
I have realized through this experience that (a) she's less emotionally independent than I thought she was, (b) I no longer feel the way I do when I got married and would now like more intimacy, and (c) some of the traits that initially attracted me with regard to the independence were really a smokescreen and are now creating issues for me in pursuing more intimacy.
I have always been supportive of her having her own life and doing whatever she wanted. We have separate bank accounts plus a joint one, because I don't want to know how she spends her money, nor do I care, that's up to her. When she wasn't working, I would deposit money in her individual account and there was no accountability for where that went.
In terms of a social life, I was extremely trusting. You want to go out to dinner with your male friend, have fun! I'll watch the kids. You want to go dancing with some people you know from town, have fun! Then I didn't sit at home and worry, or ask her about it when she got back beyond "did you have a good time?"
Part of the reason she was able to have a 6-month affair without my knowledge is that I'm not controlling and just trusted her implicitly. She told me at least once that she was going to dinner with OM and had me watch the kids.
Despite what's happened, I'm still not controlling, it's not in my nature. It went against my grain to tell her to have no contact with either OM. I did that at the urging of my DB coach.
I have always encouraged her to pursue her own happiness and continue to do so.
Maybe more of an answer than you were looking for, but I will not let you call me controlling!
(That was a joke)
Accuray
My H said I was controlling. I didn't see and I still don't. He had EA last year and when I discovered it he left me. Then after 3 wks of being gone, he moved back. I told him that I did not want him to have contact at all with her. And he sees that I am trying to control him. But I still disagree.
Hopeful, I think that's a tricky area. My W has never said that I'm controlling.
On the one hand, perception is reality, so if your H feels you're being controlling, you need to pay attention to that complaint.
On the other hand, if H is using that as an excuse to be able to do whatever he wants and not be held accountable, that's not acceptable.
I don't think expecting your spouse to be loyal is controlling. Telling your spouse they may not contact OW/OM could be construed as controlling. I think the better way to phrase it is in terms of a boundary -- if you continue to contact OM/OW I can't stay in this relationship. In that context, they can do what they want, and you'll take action as appropriate for yourself.
Accuray
Hopeful
I agree with Accuray, I also suggest that you couch it in terms of your own feelings. What your husband did was very hurtful to you, and keeping contact reopens the wound.
It's important that he respects your feelings.
Accuray:
The more I read about your situation the more it hits home. My wife called me controlling and that I manipulate her to to get what I want over the years which in her eyes was always sex.
I am so far from controlling that I said how about you give me a few examples of me being controlling. Hmm, nothing to say ok, how about the next time I do something controlling you write it down and we can discuss it.
She did say I take care of the mortgage and general bills and that she see's that as controlling. Well if that is controlling I guess you caught me because 15 years ago I tried to talk to her about how we should split up the bills and at the time she wasn't interested in sharing a part of her income. I made 3 times as much as her at the time so seems reasonable I should pay for everything and she paid nothing toward owning the house, etc.
We have always had seperate accounts and didn't hear any grips so I just left it that way.
I know deep inside this money situation has always bothered me but I just sucked it up as part of being married.
I, just like you married someone that was very independent which was a trait I was looking for. I had so many friends that were with girlfriends that wanted their boyfriends on lockdown. They only wanted to spend time with them and that was not going to be me.
I have never been the type to be jealous, just not a problem I have ever had. I trust her completely and unless something comes up would never think she would ever have an affair.
I think what she see's as controlling is me dealing with life. Someone has to pay the bills, I would gladly let her do them if she is interested.
You have mentioned in a post that your wife has self esteem issue's. I think mine is finding her identity now and along with the depression is the real cause of my situation. I know I'm not perfect so if nothing else this has made me take a hard look at my relationship and how it can be improved.
What are some examples of controlling behavior?
Not removing personal responsibility from the equation....
But have you considered your W does not feel in control of her own life?
It may not be necessarily your behaviors but the circumstances.
For example: my job moves me a lot, so it kills most chances of my wife having a good long term career. Thus I pay the bills, this makes things worse.
Now from what I understand both of your W's work, so maybe it's something else. Try to find if there is something in her life she feels helpless about.
I don't know, my wife doesn't think I'm controlling. Labug read that into one of my posts and that's how "controlling" got in here.
My dynamic is more that I have high expectations for myself. Since I can be hard on myself, my W can feel that she's always under a microscope, being judged, and that she doesn't measure up. That's quite different from being controlling, as in my instance all she has to do is observe how I regard myself...I don't have to say or do anything to her to inspire this feeling.
My IC says this makes my W feel unsafe, shes afraid that no matter what she does it won't be good enough. She feels that if she tries to do something for me I will never be satisfied and there will just be another thing and another thing after that that I will want and it never ends. Exhausting right?
The thing is, I'm not "doing this" to her, she's bringing most of it to the table herself. My job is to understand it, to look at what I'm doing that triggers it or makes it worse, and stop doing those things. I'm hoping that the IC can help us to make her feel safe just being herself.
I do have to say that so far my abstinence pledge is working for me and of course W hasn't complained. I feel in control of my emotions and W doesn't have the chance to dissapoint me sexually. This helps me be relaxed with her. Going on a week now, still waiting for it to drive me crazy.
Accuray
Controlling is just a small part of my situation.
The bigger issue is that my w thinks she things she can never be good enough to me. I kinda see it as a self esteem issue.
My wife is finding her identity and evaluating what is important to her and seems as though I just don't measure up lately.
I need to read up on your abstinence pledge. I can tell you that after 6 months of no sex I'm doing just fine.
Shaky,
Was the no sex your choice or hers?
Accuray
Hers
For the first couple months it bothered me but I know it will take time before she is ready so I'm using this time to be a better husband and father without the intimacy.
I know what I need to do so I'm working on me. Last talk we had she said she wants to see the romantic side of me, I have to dig deep because I can't remember being all that romantic ever.
I do feel fortunate in that the cold shoulder and avoiding me stage is over.
Just seems like I have to to all the heavy lifting and somehow not complain that I'm getting none of my needs met. In reality I'm not happy but hopefully long term this will all be worth it.
Last night I did get a commitment that she will go to Retroville end of this month.
Not removing personal responsibility from the equation....
But have you considered your W does not feel in control of her own life?
It may not be necessarily your behaviors but the circumstances.
For example: my job moves me a lot, so it kills most chances of my wife having a good long term career. Thus I pay the bills, this makes things worse.
Now from what I understand both of your W's work, so maybe it's something else. Try to find if there is something in her life she feels helpless about.
Good suggestion, I will try to find out if her new job is making her feel helpless in some way.
Finally responding to your reply: OK, don't be so touchy! (joking
)
It's good to know there are people who aren't controlling around here. I have alot to learn about how to not be controlling.
Closing this thread -- thank you everyone for your comments! Please don't post on this one any more, I've started another one called "Putting it back together part 2"
Accuray