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Read the book and I have been the LD wife driving my husband away for 12 years. Now he is done, dead inside, and in some type of emotional affair.he won't touch me except if it is the middle of the night and it is subconscious. No sex.

Is there anything I can do now? I finally get it but am afraid it is too late. What types of things would HD husbands want?

We are going to a sex therapist but husband has gone once and doesn't think it will work.

First and foremost...not to be driven away.

And so when you say you've been driving him away for 12 years, it implies you know what you've done and how you've done that. Part of that is probably a feeling of not being appreciated and that you've gotten what you wanted (no or very little sex) and he hasn't.

And what you've produced, at best, is a man who has given up on you, on what it feels like to be close to you, on what it feels like to be vulnerable with you, and what it feels like to have your two bodies intertwined. At worst, you've crested a situation where someone else is preferable (emotional or otherwise) to being with you.

AND why believe your "getting it" at the last moment?

You are going to have deal with all of that before you get back to what he wants at a physical level and what you want from him being sexual with you once again.

The Captain

Soooooo, are you really LD or just really turned off by the idea of sex with your H? (Asking this PRE-bomb) (The bomb tends to make all LBSs very horny).

AND, while my name is selected to be gender neutral for various reasons, I ask because I am a woman with a high sex drive who was sexually dead in my previous M (the one that brought me to these boards many years ago.)

I had forgotten I had posted here...I had just discovered H's affair and I was a mess. At that point, he claimed it was just an EA but it was a full blown PA and is still continuing. I'm posting under Infidelity (full story is there).

I think I was always lower desire than my H, but over the past 5-6 years had gotten worse because of our conversations about it. H made me feel like I wasn't a sexual person and lacked passion. I know I have been more passionate with other people but he really hurt my self-esteem and zapped my sex drive. That said, we did continue to ML at least once every couple weeks if not more often. The other problem was though that between our crazy lives, three kids, moving across the country last year, and two full-time jobs...I had lost myself. I was in a bad mood a lot of nights by the time H got home from work late. None of that helped in the bedroom.

I'm now doing the LRT strategy although H still seems to have a foot in our marriage...so I've also been "romantic" with him when he comes home from his work trips (OW lives in the city where he travels to). He is seeing my increased sex drive and more playfulness. I'm trying to walk a line between being more open/affectionate and coming across as desperate. We now sleep intertwined. I've also lost about 20 pounds since our marriage crisis hit and H has noticed how good I look. I still have insecurities though now that he is involved with someone else...I constantly wonder what OW does that is better than me in bed, etc. Although, I have no doubt it isn't hard to outdo me in his eyes given our history and that they are in a brand new relationship.

I think my next goal is to try to listen to him about his A (when he is ready to talk) and purely listen to what he needs to get from me for our M to improve. I think you are right that he needs to feel accepted and trusted. I sense a bit of that coming back...but hard to know. He claims he needs another month or two in the A to see where it goes...otherwise, he will always wonder.

I would love to get to a better place with H and prove myself to him...although I'm also working on detaching and I believe if H doesn't benefit from the improving me...the next guy will!

Thanks for responding to my initial posting. I was new to the boards and I was hurting so much when I wrote that.

M: 12 years
T: 14 years
Me: 43
H: 45
D10, D8, D4
MLC/problems: 7/11
A confirmed: 9/15/11

Originally Posted By: Nblost

...Now he is done, dead inside, and in some type of emotional affair.he won't touch me except if it is the middle of the night and it is subconscious. No sex.

Is there anything I can do now? I finally get it but am afraid it is too late. What types of things would HD husbands want?....

HD husbands want to feel loved and validated.

MWD is really good at solid practical advice to troubled marriages, read her books and articles.

You asked about "things that an HD husband would want."

Well as an HD husband whose wife saw the light during therapy with a sex therapist, let me share some of what I think are important.

First and foremost, I was the one initially trying to save the marriage and not my wife, so this may not work for you at all. It may be too late, or not....only your husband can deside that.

My advice is to figure out how to make your husband feel loved and appreciated. Each person needs different things, and so I can't tell you about what your husband will need. Personally, I like Chapmans 5 LL approach to figuring out what makes a person feel loved.

My suggestion to you would be to carefully examine what you and your H use to do when you dated, and when he seemed really happy.

Many men need to be physically touched to feel loved. That is me. If my wife sits next to me and touches my shoulder, runs her finger through the hair on my head or the hair on my chest, I melt and feel loved.

I know men who feel loved when they come home and their wives have dinner ready for them.

I know men who feel loved when their waves complement them and praise the good things that they do.

I know men who feel loved when their wives give them presents, litting things in a packed lunch, text messages during the day, little notes, etc.

You need to figure out what it is that makes your H feel loved and then see to it that he gets the love he needs from you and not the OW, with whom he is having an affair.

Next, if you think he is having an affair, get yourself tested for STD's. Seriously. If nothing else, it may give him a reason to think about why he should be faithful to you. You owe it to your children if not yourself to get tested.

Make him feel useful, loved and wanted.

When you get the chance to have sex with your H make the most of it. Make it as wonderful an experience for him as you can. Make it something that he will want more of. Tell him that you want sex with you to be the best sex of his life. One sex therapy exercise is to ask him what the best sex was he ever had with you. Then figure out how you can try to repeat that, maybe not the same night he tells you, but try to repeat it and this time try to make it even better. (P.S. for most men, the best sex they have had is when the woman they are with is very enthusiastic in her enjoyment of the sex and the man feels like he has been a great lover as well as having had great sex.)

Most (not all) men really like, enjoy recieving oral sex. If it is something he likes and something you can handle, get yourself a book or a couple of DVD's on how to improve your technique. Be his enthusiastic oral sex partner and take absoulte delight in his body.

Also, most men really like it when a woman tells him how much she likes his body and his penis. While corny, men still like being told how wonderful their penis feels, how exciting it is to their favorite woman, and oh yes, most men like to be told how wonderfully big, firm and full it feels by a woman.

Speaking of DVD's, if you have really been "driving him" away for the past 12 years, then he has probably shifted his satisfying of sexual needs to masturbation and porn, as well as OW. If you can handle it, you might want to see how you can fit into his "new" sexuality as well as being a traditional option. What I am trying to say is if he is now really into porn, figure out how it can be something that you and he do together that brings you together as opposed to his way of emotionally distancing himself from you.

I want to complement you on "getting it" and realizing that you has a lot of responsiblity for where you marriage is and that while not trilled with his affair, you still are trying to save your marriage. That takes a lot of courage. Change on your part to the point where he sees it and starts reacting to the change, will take a while, especially if he is not going to your ST counseling. Remeber that you can not and should not try to force your husband to change, but you can reinforce any positive changes in him and you can change how you act to him so that he has to change how he acts toward you (you just have to let him determine what his new behaviors are).

Good luck to you.

Thanks young at heart, your post made me want to cry (nothing new these days...but wanted you to know I appreciated all of your insights)

I have read 5 LLs and I think my husband's love languages are touch and positive words. I am trying both. I think he would also like racy text messages during the day, but he's doing that now with OW (and he knows I have seen those)...so it feels "fake" to me to do much of that. However, I have woven in a couple innuendos in my texts.

We haven't had sex for about 6 months now (about 2 months prior to his A...I believe he had potentially met OW when he stopped wtih me). When he comes home on the weekends, we do some things:

-we now sleep intertwined which he has noticed (didn't happen much before)

-I have been much more turned on by him and he has brought me to O with his hand (something that hadn't happened very often before). He commented one morning how much more turned on I have been.

-I wear very cute/sexy underwear and combined with the weight loss...I know he is noticing.

-Last week, I did a lap dance type thing over him while he laid in bed. He "enjoyed" that.

-I have told him a few affectionate things after we have these romantic "interludes"...but, once again, I feel like I need to tread lightly. We don't say ILY anymore.

Part of me feels like going a little crazier but I am worried it is too soon. For example, I could put on a more racy outfit or take out a toy.

The saddest thing for me is that I feel like right now if I asked him to tell me which of our past love making sessions was best...I think he would feel like saying "none of them...it's all been better with the OW". He's told me that his conversations with her are more intimate, she's more "athletic", and she matches his energy better. (from a big picture perspective, I'm not sure those things necessarily can carry a complicated marriage...but they all resonate as things that would be nice to have in the bedroom)

Sounds like it will be key for me to express my enjoyment with him (hoping we get back to that) and also working on opening up more.

Thanks!!!

My heart goes out to you. You do sound like you are trying and that you understand your role in things and want to save your marriage. This is a good website for that.

I will say that some of the emotional scars I have from the sexual rejection by my wife are very deep. There were times when I avoided contact with her out of fear of being emotionally hurt and humiliated by her again. There times that I swore to myself that I didn't care what she might do, that I was never ever going to open myself to that kind of emotional pain from her again. At times it felt better to be numb that to allow her to get close to me and potentially emotionally hurt me. Of course when you have known someone for 40 years, they know your vulnerability. (I/we am much better now.)

My wife also felt vulnerable. The LL's you describe are fairly common for men and you should make him feel loved in those LL's as much as you can, without any expectation from him. It sounds like you have and that you have taken to adding to the touch a degree of sexy flirting, which is great, but you need to understand that he may be afraid of opening up to you and being hurt by you. That is why you need to make him feel loved (and emotionally safe) first. As such make sure that you do touch him in some affectionate way each day, whether it is a hug, kiss or hand on his arm/shoulder. I would also suggest that you praise him for what he does for you and your children. Let him know that you are proud of what he does and what he accomplishes.

There are some rituals that the marriage counselor John Gottman recommends that if you could build them into your morning and evening greetings would probably help. They are at the following website (yes it is a corny website) and toward the bottom of the article: Gottman relationship recommendations on 5 hours per week to make a marriage strong

It took my making my W feel loved in her LL's probably about 5 months along with help from a sex therapist before my W was able to ML to me. I literally have for the past couple of years done multiple things in my wifes primary and secondary LL each and every day so that she feels and knows that she is loved.

If your marriage survives, you will need to have the skills to make it stronger. That is one reason that you really need to work on a GAL. It sounds from what you have read, the weight you have lost, and the actions you have taken to win back you husband that you have a quite active GAL.

May I suggest that one of your GAL activities should be a physical exercise that involves you, your children and potentially your husband. One of mine was running in races. My two adult sons ran in them, along with my oldest son's wife and some of them my wife has participated in. My wife and went for weekend walks and had brunch either before or after. It was a time to walk hand in hand and talk. You don't need to make it running, it can be walking in the park, swimming, bicyling, hiking, or a host of other things.

Find an activity that "builds" family ties and makes you closer to your children and offers you husband an opportunity to also be closer to all of you.

Good luck to you and your family.

Thanks for the advice, it's great. We have been running as a family when H is home. The kids often ride bikes or scooters (too little to keep up with a real run). H usually has his headphones on but occasionally will try to race me or jokingly (let's hope?) push me off the sidewalk. I also run alone so it isn't just something I do with him. Interestingly though, recently, he's waited for me to go with him versus going by himself.

Question for the sex starved, I think my situation may be gradually improving...but I got a harsh wakeup call this weekend. He admitted (I don't even remember how it came up) that he and OW are going on a weekend trip in the middle of this month. He is very confused on who he wants to be with, but obviously, things are continuing with his A.

The night before, H woke me up in the midddle of the night and said, "I want you". We didn't have intercourse (haven't since way before his A) but did some sexual stuff. The night after I found out about his trip, he was affectionate and we had another sexual encounter which included me giving him some oral sex. (first time he has seemed comfortable with that since his A).

I have been feeling like these encounters help prove I'm not withholding on him...but I also question if I'm enabling his cake eating too much. He knows he is on thin ice with me and I have told him he needs to move out after the holidays if he won't give up his A.

He's only home a couple nights a week...so it isn't happening very often...but do you guys think the sexual stuff is good to be doing? Do you think it seems promising he's warming up in this way to me?

I know I get my hopes up a bit when we are close/intimate...but frankly, it's hard to get my hopes up too much given my sitch. Every day feels like a struggle. I also feel like it reasserts our marriage to have him be intimate with me and I don't feel bad if it causes him increased confusion or some guilt that he's cheating on OW. He holds me afterwards as we fall asleep, so seems also like there is some affection.

My H wouldn't touch me or sleep in the same bed with me for the first couple months of his A. (especially when I was in the dark). I think he was "done" with me at that point.

I also recognize H could just be sex starved when he's home...so he may just be using me.

Nblost,

First off....I like what and how you write very much. Reading your stich though I get the feeling you are caught in one of the 180 catch-22's. Being more sexual and not appearing to "withhold" ML would be a huge 180 in your relationship for you, but at the same time he is continuing to have an affair. So you are in essence trapped. I know that DB does advocate, to a point, maintaining a sexual relationship with a spouse because it does keep that connection. At the same time though you are allowing yourself to be a choice....and I worry what impact that may have on you.

I feel that men are much more likely to do the cakewalk than women from what I have experienced and read on here. When my wife left and moved in with the OM I got a good view into this cakewalking. The OM had setup, prior to my wife moving in, an elaborate system with his wife to have an affair. At first it was all loving and nice.....but after a month or so she started feeling very used. To this he replied that sex with my wife was great and had much more energy, but she just didn't do the things he wanted (and that sex was no were near frequent enough) and that his wife would do. So that built up some hope in his wife and they continued for another month....at which point she became ashamed of just being the other woman and a fling to get him off. So she ceased their activities and with that he stopped talking to her as much. Confirming to her that she was nothing more than a piece for him to have on the side.

The irony of course in knowing everything is that he was getting everything he wanted and more from wife....to the point now that at times she seems almost victimized.

I won't comment one way or the other on continuing with him.....the question is what are you comfortable with being aware of the possibilities?

Nblost,

Lostforwords offers great advice. I started out thinking that you can't make progress on your relationship while OW is in the picture, so maintaining a sexual relationship is just enabling cake eating.

On the other hand, to your point, if it makes him more conflicted and less likely to leave you for OW is it OK?

I don't think you can "out sex" an affair partner, even if you're "better" in every sense of the word, it's harder for H to let himself go with you than with someone who is less well known. That's something of a marriage tax on sex that has to do with personal development more than the skills of the partners. That said, I don't think this is your objective.

I guess from my perspective, there are 2 key questions:

1) What's it doing for him? Is it truly making him feel closer and more connected to you? OR is it just giving him a thrill, allowing him to satisfy a physical need, but allowing him to remain emotionally uninvested?

2) What's it doing TO you? It can't feel good knowing you are sharing H with OW, and maintaining a sexual relationship has the potential to be demoralizing as you will feel you're giving him all he's asked for and it's still not working. You risk the roller coaster of getting your hopes and expectations up.

I guess there's no simple answer other than to weigh the questions above and see if the positives outweigh the negatives.

Accuray

Thanks for your insights.

For him, I believe it is creating some warmer feelings in him. Now, do those feelings at all compare to what I imagine he has with OW? No, and I don't expect them to. But, I worry that if I am not warm and responsive to him...that may further prove that I'm not right for him and my desire will never match his.

For me, good question. I think I am okay. Partly because we aren't ML and he is being affectionate before and after. (If it felt purely like a physical release for him, I would feel differently). And, we are married...so it feels like we should be doing things. I think I also like knowing that he's "cheating" on OW with me. If he was completely dead towards me (like he was), that would be harder on my ego.

Now, he could be doing the affectionate stuff to try to stay in our house longer and string me along. I don't know. It seems like a risk I already have and I will not let him keep living like this for much longer.

At one point, I was debating doing more of the initiating and being a little crazier with him...but, I'm holding off on that. I don't want to seem desperate.

I guess I also believe that we may separate in January and he will be at about the six month mark of his A. If he starts to have issues with his A at that point, I'd like him to remember that I was sexually responsive. At a minimum, maybe what I've done already shows that there is a chance I can change and be there for him.

Thanks for listening, I'm having a hard time this week...I like being in control and I'm impatient...not a good combination for dealing with my sitch and DB-ing!

Actually, in my other thread (surprised no one has yelled at me yet)...I'm debating going more LRT on my H. He has really crushed me by planning a weekend trip with OW.

I think I have shown him a more passionate side of me and it may be the time now to show him that I have respect for myself and am not going to keep doing sexual things with him while he is pursuing OW. Maybe there's a way to say I'd like to be intimate with him, but I can't... I don't want to share him. I said that to him once before (after one of our interludes) and he held me close.

Frankly, I guess I'm not sure if he really wants me or desires me...it's not like he's making moves on me during the day. This could all be happening late at night just because he's horny for OW and she isn't around. The night he said, "I want you"...my sad first reaction was to ask, "Do you know it's me, your wife?" (I didn't and went along with the passion)

I'm in a funk tonight so maybe I'll change my mind...I guess the reality is I may be thinking things are working with H but he's in such a crazy place mentally...I may not really know what's going on with him.

My self esteem is actually pretty good...so don't think I'm feeling totally insecure. I think I need to try to see if H will miss me or have any second thoughts.

However, this all feels pretty impossible if H really likes the OW and things are still pretty new between them. Maybe I also need to detach to start preparing myself for the worst.

Nblost,

Originally Posted By: nblost

Maybe I also need to detach to start preparing myself for the worst.

If H is openly having an affair and planning a weekend away with OW, then I would say the worst has arrived already.

If you've already shown him a more passionate side of yourself, and you're making non-sexual changes and demonstrating them through action, then I would say the time has come to detach until OW is gone.

Accuray

What is insane is that every time I think things can't get worse...they do. I guess I just mean that I prepare myself for the fact that he'll likely be moving out and we'll need to actually deal with the ramifications of this on our kids, families, money, etc. Right now, it's horrible...but, if I really wanted to be in denial, I could pretend he is purely traveling for business and I could almost think things were fine. Almost everyone in our lives sees us as a married, happy family.

H has been telling me the thing he likes about OW is that they have more "intimate" conversations than we've ever had. As a woman, this has been chewing me up because intimate implies to me that they are sharing their deepest secrets and hopes for the future. However, I was reading some stuff last night about communication and I realized that I think my H may mean "sexual" when he says intimate. That would match the text msgs I saw on his phone and the fact that these intimate conversations started happening right away in the A. He's also been frustrated with me in the past because I define intimacy as broader and more emotional than he does.

He said in our one MC session (prior to me knowing about the A) that the most critical thing for him in a marriage is that every encounter every day be leading towards sex. When our MC pushed back on that a bit (hard to have every interaction laced with sexiness when you have three kids, two full-time jobs, etc)...H retracted. But, I think that was a clue to what he was feeling with OW.

I can believe that is hard for a SS husband to give up...

Optimistically though, I don't think the crazy sex can last forever (H has always believed it can)...I have a feeling it wouldn't take much for my H to feel a letdown with her. But, I don't know and maybe with an A...it's easier to keep that kind of stuff alive. I would hope that at some point, he starts coming across as too pushy about sex...I know he did with me. The bad news is, he's probably told OW that I was LD (she may be venting the same stuff about her ex) so she may know that's her key area to shine.

Anyway, back to my detaching with a positive attitude!

Ugh, that is hard. It's hard to believe that he really things that every encounter should lead to sex. It seems perhaps that his feelings of rejection have elevated sex to an unnatural level of importance. I know that happens to me too. I liked Michelle's approach in the SSM book -- whenever her H asked for sex he got it. She went way overboard on the frequency. This effectively made it a non-issue and before long the requests were fewer and far between, because the security was there knowing that when he wanted it, it wouldn't be a fight to get it.

If you believe that H is in this "hypersex" mode because of a history of SSM, then I agree it will likely run it's course. Once you get the amount of sex you *think* you want, it can become less special and therefore less desireable. The push / pull dynamics of wanting sex and having it denied I believe elevate the importance.

I don't know if there's much you can do with that other than count on the fact that the A will eventually run its course. If it's only based on sex, it's bound to.

Accuray

I think historically, he's been more of the opinion that sex should be in a compartment (which I think is more typical and very realistic for many men). We can have a crappy day filled with stress..but when we get in bed..we have great sex to recover. That was always hard for me...I'd get in bed exhausted.

I think the "every interaction needs to be sexual" may have come up because he had just gotten into the affair and I bet that's how the affair was. (and at the point he said that, he was about 1 week into it). Doesn't really matter but I guess I pin some hope on the overwhelming sexual side fading at some point.

I agree too...maybe the sex piece will become less important and some aspects of the marriage will come into focus...hard to know. I do think the SSM and the lack of closeness we'd had before his A would have made this affair a huge addiction.

Anyway, I think it helps me to view the relationship as primarily sexual to keep a somewhat hopeful attitude (which just means I can do the LRT more easily).

But, who knows...

N,

You have so many factors at play in an affair and the "courtship" that are new and have no comparison to a "Old" relationship. I firmly believe that when you were courting your husband that there was a fair amount of intimate conversations? Those conversations slow down over time because the other person already knows. Now if you were to start again with a new man, I bet you would have tons of intimate convo's.....it is a natural courting thing. Of course today with IM, website boards, Emails, text, video texts, cell phone pic's. etc...It is so much easier to have those conversations and flirt. The truth is though, they eventually will slow down. Honestly...how many times a day would you want to here "I want to suck you ****"? It would end up being generally boring as heck to me.

So somewhere a balance needs to be found in any relationship to keep it from getting boring, but at the same time not letting it control your thoughts so that every interaction leads to sex. Right now I think your husband seems to have unrealistic expectations of a sexual life. Why? Probably because he feels how things are with the OW are how things should be. But you know the truth N....it is just a hormonic high that will fade faster than Milli Vinili.

Don't worry about the hot sex...it will go away. As my wife told me about her last affair "The sex was incredible at first...by far the best I had ever had. The guy really knew what he was doing. In the end though...I was thinking..enough already! I am tired and want to go to sleep".

So in conclusion...patience and time are your friend. Work on yourself and don't...repeat...DON'T try to compete with the OW. You are worth more than that.

Oh, and also, I'm not sure H still gets as much sex as he'd want. He is in OW's city about 5 days a week but she has custody of her kids at least half of the time...so I am guessing they can't get together as much as he'd like. H made a side comment to me last weekend that he doesn't just get to date and see her all the time when he's gone.

(I had a momentary lashing out at him over how much more fun his life is than mine even though he claims he is really struggling)

I seriously don't get how the A is really that hard for the cheating spouse. I really don't. I can see breaking off the A is hard or getting a D...but I don't really see what is eating him up so much right now while he's cake eating.

If it's guilt, then make a freaking decision and move on...

UGH!!!

It isn't the affair....it is his mindset. He is in "it is all about me" world. So if everything isn't about him....then it [censored]. You will see that a lot over on the MLC board. Everything is about them....hence the reason for detaching is so important. I remember once getting torn to pieces because I took the kids to a fast food joint for lunch. How there wasn't enough money for such things...yet she was spending $400-500 a month going out bar hopping. It is all about them and you have to find space between the selfishness they spew and what you desire to accomplish.

Thanks lostforwords,
I definitely need to continue to detach and just hope for the best. Also, interesting to hear your wife's perspective on the sex...I am hoping OW starts to feel that way.

H has also let himself slide a bit in terms of eating healthy/exercising. Might be a bad sign for me if he's getting more comfortable with her, but I'm hoping it's a sign the hormones are settling down a bit. He was really amped up when the A first started.

At first, my IC told me to compete with OW (she thought my H might see the light quickly)..but we moved to LRT pretty fast once that didn't work and she could see H was pretty entrenched. (By competing, she really mostly meant to GAL and dress well...which I am still doing...but it was also the mindset...which I've now dropped)

Yes, selfish is the key word. What's also somewhat comforting to me in that if he was truly in a genuine, loving, mature relationship...I don't believe he'd be acting how he is acting. He'd end our marriage, be extra supportive of the kids, work with me on co-parenting...all while trusting OW would be waiting for him to be free to love her.

I don't really buy into MLC for my H--I think his actions are more driven by our marital issues and the A.

Accuray, I think you were asking the right questions. I did have one more weekend with H where we had a "sexual encounter"...but nothing crazy.

Since then, H has now been gone 9 days including a vacation with OW last weekend (he wouldn't tell me where). While he was gone, I had a very fun night out with men from my firm and "made out" with one of them. It was fantastic from the perspective of this man making me feel sexy, beautiful, etc. After that, I have been feeling much more detached from H and I am having a hard time imagining being sexual with him. I just think I've lost so much respect for him.

So, not sure what this will mean for me being responsive to H. H knows after his trip and after continuing his A for over 3 months since I found out about it, he is on thin ice. I've told him he needs to move out after the holidays.

I'm also to the point where I wonder if I'm better off starting over and doing the right things to avoid a SSM rather than trying to prove to my affair crazed H that I can change...