Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Accuray New and Suffering - 08/03/11 12:33 AM
A bit about me:

Married 17 yrs, 3 children

I read the SSM book and identified with it 100%. My wife historically would agree to sex about once per week but was clearly never engaged / interested which was not a good feeling.

Recently discovered she was involved in a 6 mo EF with a co-worker. When confronted, asked for divorce and not interested in reconciling. EF is over, ended by OM.

I spent lots of time reading, researching, seeking help, etc. and have got her back to the table and interested in saving the marriage, but I am definitely doing the bulk if not all of the work. I feel like I'm putting on a backpack full of rocks each morning and walking around with a forced smile.

My wife says she wants me to expect nothing from her, and that it may be months before she's ready to resume a sexual relationship.

I understand the 4 steps in the process and am working very hard to meet her needs, but am having a very hard time dealing with EF-related anxiety and anger (which I have never voiced).

I'm very concerned that months of one-sided effort will lead to resentment on my part. She got to have an exciting outside relationship while I dealt with our SSM, now I have to put everything right and expect nothing?

I'm really struggling with this. I want it to succeed and I left nothing on the table getting her to come back to the relationship, it took everything I had and I am emotionally exhausted, but now I have to keep giving indefinitely?

Any advice is appreciated.
Posted By: TeaEarlGreyHot Re: New and Suffering - 08/06/11 01:41 PM
First, I feel for you. I've been through something similar before. I wish I could tell you that it will all work out. It won't if you aren't both engaged in the rebuilding process.

You did not say who went immediately from the revealing of the affair to seeking divorce. The implication is that it was her, but your statement is not definitive. The flight to divorce as an immediate response is not unusual because it is an "easy" way out of the embarassment and the broken trust. It is also a symptom of something else...a failure to meet expectations.

There is good news and bad news in the OM breaking this off. The good news is that he is not directly in the picture (though you said he is a coworker, so unless one or both are out of the the environment there may still be contact. If he's out of the picture because he does not want to be any part of whatever your wife is playing out then consider yourself lucky). The bad news is that he, from your description, ended this. Thus, it was your wife that was "rejected" even if that was caused by the discovery of this affair. That comes with its own set of problems for both of you.

You say your wife is back at the table and interested in saving the marriage. The implication from what how you wrote this was that you managed to talk her into it. In and of itself, this is not a bad thing because getting her to see that you care might be enough to keep her from being hellbent on a divorce. Ultimately, however, the choice to be back at the table must be hers and not a response to conditions because she feels she "should" (another expectation) or has limited choices.

And that brings me to "expectations." In one sense, her request is a sensible one because the expectations and failure to meet them will always be a sticking point and a source of disappointment. Most importantly, it is a conversation from your past (or hers) about how things used to be or how they should be. Intimacy is not created from your past (though your past might inform you) but rather is created in the present moment. That is a reason why recreating a scene or scenario from your past and having it occur and feel the same way it did in the past is usually a disappointment.

The irony is that in asking that you have no expectations of her, she has some of you (probably that you would accept this as a reason or excuse for that lack of commitment, intimacy and sex). You can either accept her request, turn it down or make her a different offer. While it may be a way to buy time and space, it can also be a way to hold you at arms length and (to continue) to deny you intimacy.

And that is what you've described. While your marriage may currently be sexless, what you described is a marriage that lacked intimacy at the sexual level, not one that is purely sex-starved. Once per week does not mean the marriage is sex-starved even if she was just going through the motions. It is intimacy starved. And while you may not believe that you can withstand a sexless marriage, you can if only for a while. It's a matter of whether and how long you are willing to accept that condition and your expectations of for yourself, your spouse and the way the marriage works.

Finally, about your anger...I understand. It is born out of unmet expectations AND fear of loss. For a little while you may have to hold your anger and more importantly find the words that convey your fear and your commitment to your marriage without being hurtful.

And yes it will feel like you are doing all the work and the heavy lifting. That may or may not be true. Just know that, too, is born out of expectation of equality in the marriage. Although love and intimacy may end up being a zero-sum occurrence where things eventually balance out, you must not be afraid that you are doing all the work. You have your own line in the sand and you may be afraid that you will reach and have to go past that just to stay married. Don't be untrue to yourself, just don't be rash and inflexible.

But do give of yourself without reservation, and without expectation of anything in return. Give 100%. Don't expect it to be a 50/50 proposition. It may naturally return to a sense of 50/50 or something like that. But quid pro quo in this situation usually turns out badly unless both of you are truly willing to follow that path.

If things crash and burn you want to know, for yourself, that you held nothing back and you gave it your all. It won't feel good to you that nothing you did made a difference or that your couldn't affect the outcome to turn things the way that you would have had it. But you will not be left with the "what if" sense of regret that you held something back leaving you to wonder if that might have made the difference.

And if things do work out, you will be able to look back and be glad and even surprised at what you could and did accomplish.

The Captain
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 08/07/11 11:05 PM
Captain,

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. In response to your questions, it was my wife who went immediately to divorce upon the reveal. I do not believe it was spur of the moment however, as she had been working up to it for a while and clearly had it thought through. I will also say that the OM is out of the picture, there is no longer any contact at work or not as they are both out of the environment.

WRT my wife being rejected, what specifically are the problems I should anticipate? This is one of my fears -- that I'm dealing with grief and rebound issues that really don't have to do with me, so my efforts may make the situation worse. I'm somewhat directionless here.

In terms of being back to the table, I did do a lot of fence mending, did a 180, etc. I treated the situation like I had one chance to turn it around and that was all. I will say that if not for this site, I would not have been able to do it. I do believe she's here of her own will and by her own decision. I will also say that I believe she is making an effort at establishing intimacy, as am I.

I appreciate your guidance and your words -- when I wrote my initial post I was in a dark place and needing to vent, it helped. I agree that it's very important not to hold anything back, believe me, I've given it every ounce, as well as some reserves I didn't know I had.

Thank you again for your input
Posted By: TeaEarlGreyHot Re: New and Suffering - 08/16/11 09:28 AM
Been meaning to get back to you.

You are probably correct that the flight to divorce as THE option probably was not spur of the moment. But it maybe a rough road because it often means that she has already mentally visualized an alternate life without you and preferable to the one she now has or lives. And that thought, that process, can be a cancer that grows.

The fact that the OM is out of the picture makes things a lot easier because whatever the lure is/was is not available and ever present. At one level this makes things less complicated.

The fact that your wife was "rejected" once things were revealed might, and I stress might, create a level of doubt for her that flows along the lines of "what if I wasn't rejected? Would I still be here?" There will be moments of doubt for both of you because the trust that was lost makes it difficult to set things right. There was a reason why she pursued this course though she may not be aware of it.

To counter-balance that, the sense that she is back working on the marriage by choice is important. But it takes more that making a show at it. There will be both breakdowns and breakthroughs. Celebrate the breakthroughs and don't dwell on the breakdowns.

Getting out of that dark place pretty quickly is important. You have to willing to offer your forgiveness if and when she finally wants and needs it. Gentle, honest, loving support in the face of anger can be a tall order, but in the end you both might rediscover why it seemed like a good idea to marry.

The Captain
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 08/22/11 07:01 PM
Thank you again for your help and kind words. As time passes, I am learning more and more about what happened, and my wife was chasing multiple OM at work for approx 2 years, only one of whom engaged with her. Each of these revelations takes me back to deep hurt. I have asked her to tell me everything and she keeps assuring me she has, but then I learn more.

She claims to be 100% committed to putting us back on track, but is approaching it with low energy and enthusiasm. She's in a place of comfort and content, but doesn't seem to be willing to do much work beyond the minimum. Claims that is "just her" but she seemed to have plenty of energy for the EF's. I am feeling very much "in love" again and enthusiastic about the relationship, while I fear she loves me, but is not in love. I do know she is still communicating sporadically with one of the OM's who did not engage, who she had an infatuation with.

I can't figure out if I should pursue her, or step back and wait for her to come around (if she does). Whenever I get low based on the EF's, she senses it without me saying anything, and either gets angry or withdraws. Having no support makes me feel even more alone and makes me tend to pursue more.

I assume the best course of action here may be to give space?

Thanks again!
Posted By: TeaEarlGreyHot Re: New and Suffering - 08/25/11 12:30 AM
Well, the good news is that you are finding out about these OM. The bad news is that you are finding out about these OM.

I know it hurts and thers the potential for lots of anger there. Anger, disappointment, embarassment are okay to express. Just not as rage. I don't get the sense that you are there, but we all have are breaking points and when in unknown territory it can get pretty dicey.

In terms of the minmal aspect, let me give you some perspective on that...she has messed up and she knows it. Every foray into this wrong is just another reminder. In one sense it like whistling past the graveyard because we don't or won't talk openly about death, particularly about our own because ti reminds us that we are going to die one day.

But in that fear (of death or even talking/thinking about death) we forget something very important....there is a life to live, to love and to share between then and now, and we don't have forever for that.

So, too, is it with any kind of affair. It will always be there and it will change or define everything from here on out. This does not have to be for the worse.

Give space carefully and if you do, let her know that you are giving space knowing and thoughtfully for the purpose of her working stuff out. And just because you give her space does not mean that it is forgotten or "settled." it won't be until both of you have had a chance to say everything there is to be said on this and related matters and then you can both declare it "the past" and move on to a new present and future in your relationship.

That does not assure that your relationship will be one spent together, but I think it gives you a better chance than not.

The Captain
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 08/26/11 06:14 PM
Thanks again. Lots of progress being made here, we are returning to happy. My W claims that the reason she was seeking outside EF's was because she believed we were fundamentally incompatible and that she was left with unmet needs. She said she was afraid to challenge me with it, because I seemed happy with things as they were and she was afraid putting it out there would cause one of us to end the marriage, and she was afraid of forcing that. She didn't think my changing to meet her needs was an option. She now says that my efforts have shown her she can have the relationship she's always wanted, and she doesn't want anything else.

We've been seeing the same therapist individually and sometimes together, and the therapist cautioned me during an individual session recently that my W's explanations are disingenuous, and that she is addicted to the thrill of getting attention, and that she will likely do it again despite my best efforts.

I have no idea why the therapist would say that, given that I had accepted my W's explanations and we were on a good track, but it threw me for a huge loop. Should I disregard the therapist and find a new one, or heed those words of caution? Her assessment doesn't feel right based on my relationship, I somewhat thought she was giving me textbook advice, but obviously I've been somewhat oblivious!

Not sure what to think or who to believe

Thanks!
Posted By: Margali Re: New and Suffering - 08/29/11 08:59 PM
Damn, Accuray. This just [censored].

You said EFs, plural, right?

If I were in your shoes, I don't think I'd ever trust her again. That said: Even if you couldn't trust her, do you still love her? Do you still want to be married to her?

If so, what do YOU want the marriage to look like?

Everybody's paying so much attention to what SHE wants. Does anybody care what YOU want?
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 08/30/11 01:22 AM
Margali, thanks for the comments!

It was really only 1 EF for about 6 mos. Prior to that my wife was chasing / infatuated with a different OM, but he never engaged beyond phone calls / chat / friendship. That lasted about 8 months but was completely one-sided. Prior to that she was reaching out to old boyfriends, but no one bit.

I do still love her very much, and do want to stay married. The marriage I want is characterized by being open and honest, genuine, and enthusiastic about the R, the kids, etc.

No, no one cares what I want but me, but I believe that's how this works when one partner decides to walk. She tells me that before, her needs were never met because she always put me first, she could never live up to my expectations, and she felt like she fell short in the marriage, all of which made her feel badly. This made her angry and unapproachable. She would claim to do things for me, but was passive aggressive about it and let me know she wasn't happy. To be fair, I got tired of that and withdrew, pursued my hobbies, and tried to make the best of it.

Now, when we talk about my needs, she complains that I'm starting to drive the relationship again, that my expectations are creeping back in, etc. Either that or she starts crying, says she's a bad person, etc., and I instantly go into support and reassurance mode and my needs are forgotten.

I am far from controlling, but it's very difficult to ask and expect nothing. From what I've read however, that's what you do in this situation.

I'm really most concerned with the fact that the therapist gave me such a dire warning. Not sure what to do with that. It didn't seem like it was accurate, it seemed like she was reading out of an affair book versus dealing with the individual. I don't know, the whole thing was brutal and continues to be so.

Am I just a doormat?
Posted By: Young at Heart Re: New and Suffering - 08/30/11 05:07 PM
Call me old fashioned, but if there are 3 children and she will always be their mother, then I would try everything in my power to save the marriage. Since the wife seems at the moment to "say the words" that she wants to save the marriage, I would take her at her word, until actions proved otherwise. That will be very hard for Accuray.

Since her wife has said part of what her searching and actively pursuing multiple OM was about fulfilling unmet needs, Accuray and his W probably need real professional marriage counseling help to work through some of the issues.

I am a real believer that no matter how much we feel we have been wronged by our spouse, we probably have a "degree" of responsibility. Sometimes it is small and other times it is large. I know that in my case, I did things in my marriage that made my wife feel like I was emotionally abandoning her. I also did things that enabled her to further abandon me emotionally. It was only after I apologized to my wife for the things that I had done wrong in my marriage and shown her that I was a different person, that she found the strength to change how she treated me.

Good luck
Posted By: TeaEarlGreyHot Re: New and Suffering - 09/01/11 01:36 AM
I have been giving this some thought over the last couple of days about the “warning” the therapist gave. One of the problems with this sort of arrangement is that although the therapist gets to see both sides of the story through the eyes of the participants, one must be very, very careful about how the information from the other party is shared.

It could be that your wife has shared more with the therapist than she has with you as a sort of “progressive reveal.” Does that mean that there have been other men you don’t know about? I don’t know and that may be one possible source of the warning. But the fact that it was put in the context of addiction to the attention may provide a different clue (I wonder if the word “addiction” is a little too strong, Though if we do something and can’t seem to stop, that might be classifiable as an addiction.

Young at Heart points out something that I’ll say in a different way. There can always be the sense that the “grass is greener” somewhere else and we can choose to pursue that. But that is and never will be satisfactory because it will always seem that “the grass is greener” somewhere else (or with someone else). Always!

Let’s take what your wife said at face value and assume that it reveals some truth about how she sees the situation…that you seemed content and not really willing to change (on your own). Here is the thing to get from that: you have both trained each other how to see the other and yourself in the other’s presence and how you should be seen. We are seldom aware of how we’ve trained people even when we are most dissatisfied with the situation.

Think about that for a moment. If she sees (saw) you in that way as being unwilling to change…didn’t you train her to see you that way? Its not all your training for she has her own interpretive experiences to work from. And the converse is true. Your wife, through many years and many, many words and actions has trained you to see her and the nature of your relationship in a certain way. There are certain things that you” know” about her, yourself, and how the relationship does (and does not) work and the “way things are.” It’s informed by your entire past (and hers).

I suggest that it isn’t the attention that she craves (she’s getting a lot right now and the attention isn’t necessarily a great one to go through). It’s the fact that with someone else there isn’t the baggage (training) of the past (relationship) to bring into and disrupt the excitement (actually the baggage is already there but there is the tendency to ignore it because it’s not shared baggage developed together).

That works for a while…until the one becomes aware of the tractor trailers full of the baggage from the past that show up and the movers start delivering it. Then it’s time to move on.

It is clear that you love your wife and, despite everything you know so far, you wish to stay married to her and forge a stronger marriage. Yes, the trust has been damaged and perhaps you have no real reason to trust her (ever again). But your heart tells you something else. I recognize that because I felt much the same way with my first wife. In my case, we were never able to get to the place where she was willing to take a chance, that the changes to the relationship would be to the positive and would be built to last….a loving relationship with me once again. I had often wondered if I had fought harder for our relationship, if I had not followed my instincts to give her space and “let her go” whether we would have rebuilt or relationship.

And although years later she saw me blossom once again, into the person she first saw (in me) and fell in love with (her words exactly), I always had the intuitive feeling that nothing I said or did would have mattered or made a difference. A family event had me ask her (finally) if somewhere I had misread the situation and by letting her go and giving her space that I missed out on rebuilding our relationship.

She told me that she was grateful for the space and the fact that I didn’t make it hard for her. But no, nothing would have made a difference. She had made up her mind about me and nothing I could have said or done would have swayed her.

The point is that intuition informs us. If your intuition tells you that your wife is willing to rebuild something with you know this: your intuition is fallible and yet you should trust it because you only you have a sense of how good your intuition is.

That doesn't make you a doormat.

The Captain
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 09/01/11 03:12 PM
Captain,

I really hope you appreciate how much your contributions have meant to me, you really seem to have this figured out, and you are an excellent writer.

For your questions:

>>It could be that your wife has shared more with the therapist
>>than she has with you as a sort of “progressive reveal.” Does
>>that mean that there have been other men you don’t know about?

The therapist told me that my wife confined her to only talking about our relationship. She would not get into her family, her own feelings, and did not share anything about the affairs she was having. I got the sense that this made the therapist angry, as my wife had "put one over on her" by not baring everything. My instinct tells me there is some of that going on, so I'm convinced that the therapist does not know more than I do. A lot of what the therapist understands about my W comes from me. To your point, my "instinct" tells me that the therapist has misdiagnosed, and is reading to me out of an affair playbook.

>>Think about that for a moment. If she sees (saw) you in that
>>way as being unwilling to change…didn’t you train her to see
>>you that way?

For sure, I am not innocent here. I was never mean spirited or hurtful, I've always been supportive. My sin was inattentiveness. I definitely felt the relationship was secure and took it for granted. I was selfish in many ways in terms of pursuing my own happiness at the expense of spending time with my W. With regard to "training", I was not ready for parenthood when we had our first, and had a hard time with the infant stage with each child. My wife did twice come asking me for more, and at the time, I didn't feel I had more to give her, as all my energy was going into the children, the household, and preserving my sanity. That was over 10 years ago the last time she asked. I think the breakdown here is that she interpreted that to be my feelings and capacity "now and forever" and for me it was just a temporary stage. I definitely don't feel I reinforced that "training" over the next ten years, I just wasn't given another chance. When I later came looking to give more, she was detached, angry, passive aggressive, and I could no longer get in, so I retreated and tried to make the best of things. After reading the SSM, many of the dynamics in our relationship became clear, my feelings of rejection and being unloved, subsequent withdrawal, contributing to my wife feeling disconnected and neglected, and around we go. At one point you commented that my M was intimacy starved rather than sex-starved. I definitely agree with you there, but it was sex-starved as well. The SSM defines sex starved as being characterized by a desire gap that leaves one partner dissatisfied and contributes to negative relationship dynamics, and we had that in spades. When we did have sex, it was always intimacy starved.

>>It is clear that you love your wife and, despite everything
>>you know so far, you wish to stay married to her and forge a
>>stronger marriage. Yes, the trust has been damaged and perhaps
>>you have no real reason to trust her (ever again). But your
>>heart tells you something else.

Yes, my heart tells me to trust again, to accept her explanations at face value and to rebuild. I was there emotionally before, but the therapist session was like getting a cold glass of water in the face. You are helping to reinforce that the therapist was probably way off base, and I should trust my instinct.

>>I recognize that because I felt much the same way with my
>>first wife. In my case, we were never able to get to the place
>>where she was willing to take a chance, that the changes to
>>the relationship would be to the positive and would be built
>>to last….a loving relationship with me once again. I had often
>>wondered if I had fought harder for our relationship, if I had
>>not followed my instincts to give her space and “let her go”
>>whether we would have rebuilt or relationship.

I am very sorry to hear that, and hope that you will take some solace in the fact that you are helping to prevent me from getting to the same place. I do believe that my W is willing to take the leap of faith, she is just more hesitant and tentative about it than I am, and that is a challenge for me.

>>She told me that she was grateful for the space and the fact
>>that I didn’t make it hard for her. But no, nothing would have
>>made a difference. She had made up her mind about me and
>>nothing I could have said or done would have swayed her.

I wonder if that's true, or that's just what she's convinced herself of? I am definitely learning that talking only goes so far, the "doing" and the "being" seems to be equally if not more important.

>>The point is that intuition informs us. If your intuition
>>tells you that your wife is willing to rebuild something with
>>you know this: your intuition is fallible and yet you should
>>trust it because you only you have a sense of how good your
>>intuition is.

Golden words of wisdom that I will always remember. Once I decided to follow my intuition and disregard the therapist's warnings, things felt "right" again.

>>That doesn't make you a doormat.

Oh boy I hope not! I definitely cannot go through this again, it has been more awful than I could have ever imagined.

Thanks again for your support
Posted By: Young at Heart Re: New and Suffering - 09/01/11 04:40 PM
Captain; Great advice!
Posted By: TeaEarlGreyHot Re: New and Suffering - 09/03/11 05:42 PM
"Experience" is sometimes getting something other than what you want. And that sometimes gives the illusion of having stuff figured out. At one level, I've had a long time to reflect upon where that relationship with my ex-wife failed and used that, to the extent possible, to inform myself and others about the pitfalls that may show up unexpectedly.

If the benefit of my experience is helpful, then so much the better.

As for my ex, I'm pretty sure that is and was an honest assessment that nothing I could have said or done would have made a difference (at the time). What we can say is that her life (and mine) did not quite turn out as we thought (and hoped) it might long, long ago.

I'll just leave it at that.

The Captain
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 09/07/11 04:14 PM
Update: My W and I are overall on a good track, but there are definitely ups and downs. My W is not interested in IC or MC, and just wants to move forward.

Because of the long term EA, I keep feeling compelled to ask if I know everything that happened, and to keep going back through the evidence I originally found whenever I'm alone. Each time I go back I find additional little things I didn't notice before and feel compelled to ask about them, which upsets my W because it makes her feel guilty and sad, and that I think the worst of her.

I received an ultimatum of sorts this week that I need to stop bringing up the past and focus on the "now" and the future. I was told I have to trust, that my W was not just some person running around having EA's for fun, that she's someone I know and did it because she was unhappy.

I was thinking about that, and because I had no idea it was going on and never thought my W would be capable of it, in many ways I don't feel like I know her anymore, and my trust HAS been shaken. I also question how much I know myself since I was so unaware.

I desperately want this to be successful and for my W to be happy, but I get sad and have a hard time shaking myself out of my worst thoughts without discussing them. I've been trying to keep it to myself, but my W says that I'm too easy to see through, and wants to know what's bothering me and won't let me off the hook until I spill it.

One challenge is that she has not been good about "cleaning up" her e-mail, phone, computer, etc., so any time I go looking there is lots to find, although fortunately nothing since the bomb dropped. She assures me that if anyone contacts her she will tell me, and that she will not reach out. At the same time, if I put myself in her shoes, it would be so much easier to try to sweep it under the rug and NOT tell me if she feels it's just innocent. How can I trust that she will tell me, knowing that telling me will lead to some degree of pain, while keeping it secret will likely go unnoticed?

Having a very hard time putting everything behind me and focusing on the future, but I know I have to do it if there is to be a future. How do people get through this without pulling their W down the drain with them whenever they get triggered? IC is too infrequent and very expensive.

Very hard
Posted By: sandi2 Re: New and Suffering - 09/07/11 04:40 PM
Oooh-weee, I want to talk to you! But I don't have time right now. Hope to catch you later. smile
Posted By: aeolianchaos Re: New and Suffering - 09/08/11 02:16 AM
Hi Accuray,

One thing to look into is David Schnarch's website - he has an audio download for $10 about dealing with extramarital affairs. It's a lot cheaper than therapy, and might give you some fresh ideas about what you can do with yourself in order to keep recovering from it.

The audio was meant for pros, but it also suggests that lay-people may find it useful. It's about 2 hours long.

I think that you are in a difficult situation if you accept your W's ultimatum and let that determine your actions.

While being in the now is great, any kind of A obviously has implications to other dynamics of your relationship. Often resolving those is a big part of the need to keep exploring it.

On the other hand, perhaps choosing not to explore it further for your own reasons could be an act of integrity for you.

Maybe thinking of it as 'putting everything behind you' is unrealistic. Perhaps there will always be a part of you that hates what she did. Maybe denying that only makes it loom larger.

If it does exist, that part of you exists within a much more expansive you that allows you to move forward and create a different kind of experience for you and your W now.

Perhaps you can reexamine some of your thoughts about trust and what that means for you.
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 09/08/11 11:21 PM
Thanks a lot Aeolianchaos, I will check out the audio program (at thi point I'll do anything)

I do appreciate your post and your guidance
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 09/08/11 11:23 PM
Come on Sandi2, you can't do that to me! You dangled some nuggets of wisdom and then disappeared! Your guidance here is welcomed.

Accuray
Posted By: sandi2 Re: New and Suffering - 09/10/11 12:53 AM
Quote:
I spent lots of time reading, researching, seeking help, etc. and have got her back to the table and interested in saving the marriage, but I am definitely doing the bulk if not all of the work. I feel like I'm putting on a backpack full of rocks each morning and walking around with a forced smile.


How did you get her back to the table....and especially "interested" in saving the M?

You will do the bulk of what's your definition of work, and for quite some time, if you really desire to have a MR with her. But there were problems from the beginning of your R with her and now she has been involved with OM, so she doesn't want to work at this M. Don't expect her to suddenly decide to push up her sleeves and start showing signs of "strong effort". If you do not come to terms with that first realization that she can't give 100% effort right now....then you won't make it.

First of all, you need to know something about a WAW who agrees to stay in the MR with the H. She has agreed to not leave! That's about as much effort as she will give right now....and maybe for a long time. If you are comparing yourstandards of efforts against her apparent lack of efforts.....you will sink. Your mental, physical & emotional strength will drain you dry b/c of the constant stress and discouragement. I'm sure you are thinking that I'm not helping much by telling you these things, but hear me out. I want you to succeed, and realizing, and accepting the fact that she is not going to jump back into the R with the enthusiasm, hopefullness, nor cooperation that you expected...will help you. You may not understand it and it isn't "fair", but I believe it is true with WAW's who have been in an EA.

Try to look at this as if there are 2 separate job descriptions. Ever had a job where you and co-worker made the same salary but you had to do most of the work? It may not be fair if you have all the hard stuff and she doesn't have to do anything except show up! That's why it's so important to keep your focus on your job goals....and not on the co-worker.


I had this little picture come to mind....Imagine the two of you lost in a dark forest. You have the burden of the backpacks & equipment, but you are working hard to find safety. However, you don't see much effort from her end of things. What's wrong with her? Why isn't she trying to get help as much as you are? It seems that the two of you wearing different type of eye glasses. You have no doubts as to what to do b/c your glasses help you to see crystal clear. The problem lies with her eye glasses. They are so dark that she can't see what's right in front of her.

I didn't mean to leave right here, but I have to go. I'll check back tomorrow, hopefully.

(hug)
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 09/10/11 11:56 AM
Thank you Sandi2, very helpful to set my expectations as you have! With regard to your question about how I got my W back to the M, I was asked for a D while my wife was on a business trip, so I had some time to figure out what to do. I found this article and tried to follow it to the letter:

http://dineane.hubpages.com/hub/My-Spouse-Wants-a-Divorce-Now-What

The bottom line is that you have one chance to turn it around, and you do that by being someone your spouse would want to be with, which means you have to do everything you can to avoid creating feelings of resentment in any way. I also read "SSM", "DB", etc. and did telephone coaching on this site, as well as IC.

I was very effective with my 180 too. I started out by re-establishing common ground from the time we got married, and then talked about our shared relationship goals, and demonstrated through action that my 180 was permanent.

Recently, my W said that she never really wanted to leave, she just thought that having the R with me she always wanted would be impossible. Now she says she feels she can have it. Since I wrote the post quoted above which was a little while ago, she has been rolling up her sleeves and putting in effort, although to your point, not to the degree or with the enthusiasm that I am.

My main challenge now is dealing with my bouts of sadness for both our benefit. I assume this is just "normal stages of grief" but I'm not sure what to expect in terms of how long it's going to last, or what I can do to head it off, or recover from it more quickly. It was suggested to me elsewhere on this site that these episodes may be an attempt to punish my wife, or to get attention from her, but I don't believe that, because they usually happen when we're apart and she would have no way of seeing me. Usually when we're together I feel good, but I do occasionally get "hit" and when that happens I try to disappear for a little while.

To some degree, I think there's been so much relief over the progress we've made that the feelings I've had to backburner are starting to come out, and I'm now feeling safe enough in the R to work through them, but I'm very anxious about derailing my efforts by doing so.

Both "DB" and "SSM" talk about the importance of creating and reinforcing positive cycles, and this sadness gets in the way of that, it starts a negative cycle and I'm really looking for ways to stop that as soon as possible.

Thanks again for your input
Posted By: TeaEarlGreyHot Re: New and Suffering - 09/10/11 02:15 PM
I probably should have mentioned something about "the ultimatum." Since either of you might issue one and it is not always there, I just let that be.

Typically, though, the ultimatum comes around 3-4 months after the discovery/revelation about the EA. One that might have been issued by you is for her to get with the program as is evidenced by your feeling that you are doing all the heavy lifting. Its going to feel like that for awhile.

OTOH, her ultimatum is all about things not feeling like they are getting better. Its about wanting to get away from the burden of the past and the pain and hurt caused by her actions. It was an ultimatum that I got in my first marriage
that things needed to get better in a hurry (or she was going to leave). And so this is not unexpected as a pattern of actions.

She tells you that you need to trust her.

No, she needs you to trust her. Right now you have no such "need." Trust is both something offered and earned and it can be withdrawn at anytime. But for her, it is all about not feeling as badly about this and being constantly reminded about it in so many ways. And one thing in particular, that you not use the EA as a "weapon" until the end of time. My sense of it is that you aren't and that you won't be using her actions as a weapon AND that you are hurt by her actions and still have a good deal of healing to do.

Closure and completion comes with healing. She wants the EA as the past to be ignored or at least not right up there in the forefront of thought and discussion. Ignoring it won't heal things. That takes time and a willingness to take the time and to take the steps to heal.

No matter what happens, the EA will be a defining moment, just as the marriage, the birth of children, and the death of family members and parents are all defining moments. They may mark where courses are altered and new paths are chosen. They may close off some paths and open others. (My view of the world and the actions I took were altered by the birth of my son. It is "the past" that is present now. His birth marks and informed a whole new course in life for me.)

But we tend to think of births as positives and extramarital affairs as negative and hurtful. In time it may take its place as a turning point that informs and reminds you that a course change is always possible.

Hang in there. The fact that you are both still there and working on this is a good sign.

The Captain
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 09/12/11 03:43 PM
Thanks again Captain, you are the best. We are making good progress and I do believe the M will be happier than it would have been otherwise, so there is a silver lining.

For her part, my W claims to be very happy and energized about the future, and is feeling very connected to me. My challenge is simply to keep that going without letting depression and sadness derail things. I am very lucky to be in this position and I realize that, things could be so much worse, and it could have taken me much longer to get here if I was able to get here at all.

Your support has been invaluable and I do appreciate it.

Accuray
Posted By: Bagheera Re: New and Suffering - 09/30/11 03:49 PM
Greetings Accuray;

First off, I would like to second Sandi2's post to you. She's giving you a great perspective on where you currently are and the fact that you will have to do most of the work and LEAD the marriage recovery efforts for some time to come if you want to succeed.

Secondly, what YAH said also applies: *keep* yourself and her in individual and marriage counseling, if at all possible. Don't let her wiggle out of it because she feels guilty and doesn't want to face her actions. The truth is, your marriage WON'T be able to move forward *until* the issues of the past are examined, dissected, and dealt with. There are no short-cuts: if you don't deal with these issues now, they *will* come back and bite you in the butt again someday.

You also wrote:
Originally Posted By: Accuray
My W claims that the reason she was seeking outside EF's was because she believed we were fundamentally incompatible and that she was left with unmet needs. She said she was afraid to challenge me with it, because I seemed happy with things as they were and she was afraid putting it out there would cause one of us to end the marriage, and she was afraid of forcing that. She didn't think my changing to meet her needs was an option. She now says that my efforts have shown her she can have the relationship she's always wanted, and she doesn't want anything else.

We've been seeing the same therapist individually and sometimes together, and the therapist cautioned me during an individual session recently that my W's explanations are disingenuous, and that she is addicted to the thrill of getting attention, and that she will likely do it again despite my best efforts.


Both what your wife said and what the therapist reported can be true. She may very well feel like her needs (which you haven't really defined here) were not being met, *and* she truly missed and enjoys the thrill of being pursued and courted by a man -- most women do. The fact that it was an extramarital affair makes it particularly exciting because of its 'forbidden' nature, and it involved a man who had *none* of the baggage that you have: he's still all bright and shiny and mysterious, while you're a well known, well worn old shoe; comfortable, but ho-hum.

The challenge that you currently face is this. She's opted to stay...for now...but she's left it up to you to make it worth her while to continue to stay. Also, she has a boat-load of negative perceptions and images about *you* and your short-comings, and she has disappointments and built up resentment regarding you and your previous actions in the M (or lack thereof). In effect, you're starting off right now with a 'negative balance' that has to be overcome for her to start seeing you in a positive light again.

Although my wife had no affairs and I'm the one that promised to leave if our marriage didn't improve, when it came time to start rebuilding my marriage I began in much the same position as you -- with a wife that was skeptical that I would do the work to meet her needs (emotionally, romantically, and family-wise), and who also had too much built-up resentment towards me to do any real work herself for awhile. It took a few months of one-sided, hard work on my part to prove her skeptical views wrong and to start getting her on board and working too (and I was lucky in that it only took that short amount of time).

Based upon my experience, in particular, and this includes the three solid years of counseling that my wife and I went through, the three best things that you can do right now (in my opinion) are:

(1) Keep focusing a lot of your attention on your GAL (get-a-life) activities, and burn off your frustrations through them. Exercise, work-out, pursue your hobbies, pursue your career, please *yourself*. This may sound anti-intuitive, because it's not focusing attention on her and the marriage, but know this: women are attracted to a man who has a *purpose*, who pursues it, and is happy with himself whilst doing it. Making your woman the center of your life and the source of all of your happiness is *unattractive* and a turn-off. Thus, your GAL activities will satisfy you, give you a place to vent your frustrations, and make you look more attractive to your wife. Win-win.

(2) Work to make yourself attractive and desirable. Every married man (and woman for that matter) should continue to act as if they are single and trying to attract the attention of their mate -- this should never stop and should last throughout the marriage. So be aware of and improve your appearance and grooming. Stop any lazy, slovenly habits, and most importantly, stop the hang-dog, sullen behavior -- it's very unattractive. Would you act that way in front of a woman you are trying to coax into a first date? Nope.

I would also advise you to stop digging into your wife's affair activities: it's like constantly picking at a scab and reopening a wound over and over again. Get it out of your system and drop it, and especially, stop asking her about it. If more needs to be done in that area, then bring it up in counseling and let the therapist direct and referee the discussion.

(3) Court your wife again (without expectations of sex). Treat her like a new love interest; get her attention; treat her like a gentleman; give her the thrill of the chase that she was missing so badly. Again, this is something that *all* married couples should continue to do throughout their lives: the old entice, chase, catch, then release to entice and chase again cycle should never stop.

WARNING: do not, do not, do NOT pursue her in what my wife calls 'love-sick puppy-dog mode' -- again, this is very *unattractive*. If you make her the center of *all* of your focus and attention, if your face crumples at the slightest rejection, or conversely, if you do the happy-dog dance at the slightest positive response from her, then you're making a mistake and looking unattractive (and co-dependent). Pursue her as a MAN, and in a manly fashion. Pursue her as a fun game, and one that you can handle losing.

Part of the key here is to not let *your* enthusiasm for the chase / pursuit outstrip hers by TOO much (a hard line to walk). A woman loves a man to be goo-eyes for her and hot on the pursuit trail, AS LONG AS she's she's at least somewhat goo-eyes for him or warming to the notion. But if he's far ahead of her in the love-sick department or worse, she doesn't want him to pursue her at all, then he gets the unattractive "puppy dog" label. IOW, you may have to regulate your courting behavior with regard to your wife, so as to keep pace with her responses. Start easy, start subtle, and be somewhat out-of-character...surprise her.

Hopefully, that's given you some food for thought.

Take care,

-- B.
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 10/09/11 04:28 AM
Thanks Bagheera,

I really appreciate your thoughts, I haven't checked this thread in a while, so my sincere apologies for the delayed response.

I am well studied in these dynamics at this point. In addition to pouring over tons of advice on these forums directed to others in similar situations, I have read SSM, DR, DB, "Love Must be Tough", "The 5 Love Languages", "Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S.", "No More Mr. Nice Guy", and am half way through "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It". Some of these were very applicable to me, others less so. They all tend to share the same themes, but come at them from different directions and with different examples. Bottom line is that I believe I understand the right thing to do, and am coming close to understanding what motivates my behavior, and a little closer to understanding what motivates my wife's behavior.

I understand it intellectually, but as I'm sure you appreciate like everyone else, it's damn hard to live it 24x7. I have been doing IC, but had to switch therapists for the reasons mentioned in this thread. I got my wife to do one session of MC with a counselor who was not really qualified, and one phone session with my DB Coach that really didn't help that much. She's pretty opposed to doing more, and if she comes in with a closed off attitude it seems to hurt more than it helps. My DB coach agreed on that point.

Here's an update, and maybe The Captain can chime in too:

Overall we've been doing quite well. We've been joking that we're going to win the marriage award, and my W seems to enjoy having that as a goal. Reading the 5LL's, my W's primary LL is "Quality Time" and I've been giving her that in spades. I do believe that our fundamental issue was that I would "GAL" too much, not spend enough (or any) quality time with her, so she felt alone and insecure in the relationship. That lead our M to be sex-starved, which touched off negative cycles of me feeling rejected, further retreating, lather rinse repeat.

Overall, the things that I have been doing and my 180's are really working. My wife says that I have "turned everything on it's head", she's very happy, and there are no thoughts of leaving now, she's here to stay. Our sex life is better than it's been since we got married, and our family is overall happier. In many ways, I'm the happiest I've been in a long time.

Victory right?

Ah, if only it were so easy, and I know it should be, but I am still a mess. Every week is getting better, but it's damn hard. I'm going through the high highs and low lows that Michelle says to expect, and they are hard on both of us. The reconciliation lead me to feel "in love" again, which I realize is a chemical response, is temporary, and clouds my judgment. My wife, to your point, did not come that high in her feelings for me. She's happy and satisfied, and feels secure, but she's just not at the same place, and although I'm dealing with it, deep down it hurts me.

In many ways my emotions were like a coiled spring, I was so beaten down and repressed, that when we reconciled, a lot popped out, both good and bad. Per DB, my challenge now is to manage that in the best way possible.

Reading the 5LL's, my primary LL is "Words of Affirmation", which is a common one for men. Historically, my W really wouldn't hand this out at all. She grew up with a narcissistic mother and a tough love father, so this is not in her nature. Once we read the 5LL's together and discussed it, I was thinking "great, I've given you my user manual -- this will be much easier now". In discovering her affair, I read the wonderful things she wrote to OM, so I knew she had it in her if she would put in the effort. I'm also in touch with the fact that what she wrote to OM made me jealous, I would love to have her write those words to me, but I know she will not, I am the well-worn shoe to your point above -- but I'm human so it still hurts (I wish I were a divorce busting robot!)

To her credit, she did make a slight effort with Words of Affirmation, but it was very slight. I made mistakes here and I know it, but I talked about what I would like to receive (per DR, you have to ask or you will never receive). This made her feel inadequate, and she got very upset with me last week and started crying.

What she keeps telling me is that she feels inadequate, and that she doesn't measure up. She just wants me to be happy. She says that I am compromising too much, putting my needs in the back seat, etc. She also takes any request that I make as a complaint -- a complaint that she wasn't already doing what I'm asking for. That's certainly not the spirit I intend, I'm trying to work things out. In my view she is perfectly adequate and I love her very much! Despite how much I tell her and try to show her, she does not seem to accept that.

She asks me to have no expectations, and to treat whatever she does for me as a gift. Then, when I try to come with no expectations, she complains that I'm suppressing my needs. Yikes, tough.

I believe one of the things she liked about the affair was that OM was married, and told her his first priority was his W. He had low expectations of her, and she would have to draw him out and pursue. She really doesn't do well in an environment with any expectations at all, and it's hard to live in a marriage that way. I really don't think my expectations are that high. I historically have never asked her to do anything. I don't expect housework, cooking, any of the gender-stereotype expectations. I do my own laundry, I'm happy to cook my own meals, do the grocery shopping. We split kid duty evenly, and I do all the typical male stuff (yard work, garbage, bills, home repair, etc.). All I have really asked her for recently is a daily check-in via chat while at work, and occasional "words of affirmation", as that makes me feel loved. That's it. Reading this, that may be hard to believe, but that's really all I've requested, and all I really "expect" is that she puts some effort into our marriage by engaging with me.

Lately, I've been feeling that she's encouraging me to throw in the towel, to admit that she will not make me happy and to leave of my own accord. This would take the pressure off of her if it was a mutual parting for sure. She seems to say things to point out that I'm not happy, when in fact I AM happy. That's what makes me question her motives, she's supplying negative feelings for me that I don't have.

I spoke to my DB coach this week for the first time in a month. She had some interesting perspective. She said that I cannot "own" my W's inadequacy issues -- she has to deal with that herself. I should effectively ignore it. She also recommended using more of a "friend" standard with my W, such that I have low expectations, and don't make a big deal when she does something for me that I like, or offers Words of Affirmation. Give it a little nod and move on, change the subject, whatever.

She also recommended reading "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" and said that I need to reverse the gender roles, that my W is coming from the perspective of shame, and I'm coming from the perspective of fear. I'm reading it now, my W keeps asking about it, and it's so interesting that I want to discuss it with her, but I must stop that!

My new 180 is that "R" discussions must completely cease, I need to do a better job "acting as if" and hiding my hurts from my W, and to your point, continue to work on being attractive in all the ways you point out. I have lost 20 lbs, have been working out like crazy, but have recently started to gain back, I know it's because of stress, I'm trying to put the brakes on but it's obviously hard.

WRT Quality Time, which my W needs, I have been doing that on her terms. I have tons of interests and hobbies, historically she would not pursue any of them with me. Simple things like going for a leisurely bike ride together, or going swimming at the beach, she simply will not do. That frustrates me as her reason for the EA was that I was not spending quality time with her, yet she made no effort to spend any with me either, and she still doesn't. She appreciates the effort I make, but all she really likes to do is to talk about her work. I've been doing that 5 nights a week. It feels good to connect with her, but I'd love to talk about other things, or better yet DO some things together, but she just won't put forth the effort or take a chance on trying something new, it's frustrating, but I don't even bring it up or make offers anymore, because she'll take those as expectations, and then feel badly about them.

Here's the thing, I know this is a normal part of my process, but I'm starting to question if I want to live like this. I've been looking at "for rent" signs in town when I drive by and wondering "what if". I've browsed Match.com in my area. I've thought about seeking meeting new people. Through this process, I've come to be "alright with me" in many ways, and know that if this M ends, I will be okay. I didn't feel that way initially. On the other hand, I have young kids, I want an intact family, and I do LOVE my W very much.

So what to do? Is my W right that she will just never make me happy? She *does* make me happy, why doesn't she believe that? I feel happy until she tells me I'm not. I would love to see a little more effort from her, and a little more enthusiasm. Would I be happier when I got that, or would I just want more? My DB coach said that I have accepted living with what I'm getting now. If I hadn't accepted it, I wouldn't be here. She said my challenge now is to act like it.

That seems like excellent advice, just oh so hard to implement like everything else.

Accuray
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 10/10/11 03:36 AM
Journaling a few more thoughts:

She also complains that I contradict myself. I will make a request, she will make it clear that she's not going to do it, and I will tell her that's ok. That makes her very frustrated. I tell her that if she doesn't want to meet a request, I have three choices, keep asking, find a way to go without it, or find a different way to fulfill it. My learning here has been not to make requests.

The other issue I've been having is honesty. After the EA honesty is huge with me. She pursued two coworkers at her former job and had an EA with one. My DB coach suggested that we make a "contract" that if we feel tempted or catch ourselves flirting that we will immediately disclose to the other person and talk about it. She referred me to Pat Love's site regarding an "office spouse" so that we can be crystal clear about where the line is drawn.

Last week, she told me she went to lunch and went shopping with one of her female coworkers. Through a mutual friend I happened to hear that she had actually invited a male coworker to do lunch and the errand with her. It sounded like the other woman joining was last minute, but it turns out the 3 of them went out. I did not act surprised and didn't ask the mutual friend any questions as I didn't want to make a thing out of it.

Why did she not mention him when she told me about the lunch? I don't think there is anything going on there but the omission is troubling given that we are working on rebuilding and trust is so key. If she leaves out something innocent like that, how can I feel good that she will honor our contract?

If she had lunch with the guy and didn't tell me that would be fine. The fact that she had lunch with 2 people and only told me about one of them is weird. I don't want to bring it up because I don't want her to feel I'm keeping tabs, but it's bothering the hell out of me. What do I make of that?
Posted By: TeaEarlGreyHot Re: New and Suffering - 10/12/11 12:07 AM
I only have a couple of minutes as I'm sitting here in my local Starbucks, so I'll deal with the request issue, since it is actually the easiest to discuss.

A request is just that and there is not really anything for YOU to do with your own request, though it sounds like she wants you to do something different.

When one makes a request (and I do mean request, not an order or demand, or ultimatum) AND it's a request without expectations (somethings she's emphasized. That's not to say that you don't have some expectation around a request AND whatever she chooses must be "okay" for it to be a request with no expectation), there are three and only three choices avalable to HER.

First, to say "yes" to accept and honor the request.

The second is to counteroffer. This is a way of declining and offereing something else related to your original request(which now puts the three choices back on you and you can offer a counter to her counteroffer).

The third choice is to decline (without any counteroffer) as an outright "no."

The problem seems to be that she makes your request mean something (about expectations) and then she makes you "wrong" for the meaning she applied to it. She likely has has a problem with saying no without making "no" mean something and then blaming you for that as well.

Is the problem that you asked (requested) or that she answered?

Something to think about.

The Captain
Posted By: Accuray Re: New and Suffering - 10/12/11 02:30 AM
Thank you Captain, always appreciated! I guess there is a spectrum between a request and a veiled demand. On the one end is "I would like some ice cream". If I don't get it, I really don't care that much. On the other end is "I haven't had anything to drink in 2 days and you have a big glass of water, I would like half" -- that's really more of an expectation because if you don't get it, you're going to be disappointed and resentful.

I do get the sense that I made requests that are more toward the ice cream, but my wife interprets them as being more toward the water, and I'm not sure how to bridge that gap. When I tell her they are just requests, she tells me that no, they are expectations. To continue the analogy, she's saying "I'm inadequate because I haven't offered you the water already, and now you're just pretending you'll be OK without it".

It's very frustrating because I'm never able to convince her it's an ice cream request. On the other end, when I DO want the water, she often won't do that either. My point there is that I either have to learn to live with my thirst, badger her until she gives me the water, or find another way not to feel thirsty, and the asking again usually doesn't work, and just makes things worse.

I just really am having a hard time figuring out how to navigate this one, although I do like the suggestion of telling my wife to say "yes, no, or counterpropose". She really never counter proposes either, that may be a good thing to try.

--Accuray
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