I just got the book for my i-pad. I hope it works...
Me-39
Wife-31
S-3.5
D-1.5
Why am I here. I feel my marriage is sex starved. I cried when they said the national average is 85 times a year and mine is 12.
Before kids things were great. After wife got pregnant with #1, we went from 2 or 3 times a week to once every two weeks. After S 3 1/2 was born it went on average 4-6 weeks. After 3 years of this I can take it no longer.
Issues....Well both wife and I work. I work 40 hours at one job and 20 part time from the house. She works 60 hours a week at one job. I handle all the yard work, and a majority of the household stuff. Dishes, cleaning etc. Wife usually bathes the kids and puts them to bed and does the cooking. Wife has weight issues as she is about 40lbs heavier than before kids. I however have been supportive, and her physical apearance does not bother me or caused me not to want intimacy. Wife also claims that her depo shots may be retarding her desire , but yet will not talk to her Dr. about it.
What infuriates me is that she calls me a sex maniac for wanting more than once a month. Anytime I touch her, it's "go away, leave me alone, or what do you want?" Any touch to her is sexual.
Ironically in the midst of all this she states that if I ever cheated the marriage is over. She closes the kitchen, but no going out to eat. I am called selfish for wanting something, yet she does not see herself as selfish for deprieving me. Compromise to her is her way, no middle ground.
I am almost to the point that I feel, she WANTS me to cheat, so we get divorced, and everything is my fault.
I really hope this book can help. I have had a roomate since the kids and not a wife.
First congratulations on finding and getting MWD and her book on SSM. You sound like a prime candidate.
Second, you are about to embark on one hell of a journey of self discovery about you, your wife and relationships.
If you are committed to saving your marriage and you are lucky enough to find that your wife wants to change and stay married to you, you will be able to pull through this and look back on it as a bump in the road to life. Until then it will try your soul.
Everything you have said sounds familiar. The good news is that you have reached your limits and want things to change and have taken a step in trying to figure out what is going on. Once you understand what MWD is saying in her book, you will know that changing yourself, accepting your portion of responsibility for your current marital situation, forgiving your wife, showing her love, may (if you are lucky) work miracles in your relationship.
I too was in an SSM, with a roommate and not a wife. For a long time my wife's idea of affection was nothing more than what a sister might do with a brother..... peck on the cheak or touch on the arm.
Besides MWD's book SSM, the following books helped me understand what was going on in my marriage:
- MWD's SSM
- Chapman's the Five Languages of Love
- Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy
- Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight
- John Gottman's The Seven Principals for Making Marriage Work
- Kliger & Nedelman's Still Sexy after All these Years
Take the time to really learn what each book is trying to teach you. Ask questions about the books. Read on this forum about what others have gone through and see if you can't find someone else who has had a very similar situation and what helped them.
Posting is good therapy. Feel free to rant and ask specific questions.
You are not alone. There are lots of folks who have been in similar situations.
Congratualtions on your courage to seek help and make changes.
I wish you and your family the best of luck
You are really, really not alone, buddy. Let's look at the things you have in common with a LOT of people who've posted here:
Comparing your sex life to the average? CHECK.
(By the way, if you ask your wife, be prepared for her to tell you once a month is about average. If you tell her about the study you cited, be ready for her to say the respondents were embarrassed to admit the truth. Expect her to say that "everyone" she knows let their sex lives die after a few years of marriage and that's just how life is.)
Everything changed after the kids? CHECK.
"What do you want?" as a response to loving touch? CHECK.
My least-favorite was "Do you HAVE to do that?"
Catch-22 where the LD partner expects the HD partner to be faithful but doesn't work to fix the issues that are driving the HD partner away? CHECK.
Feels like she's actually trying to hurt you on purpose for some reason you can't figure out? CHECK.
Read the book right away. The first BIG thing you'll get from it is that you're not alone. The next BIG thing is that your wife may be just as hurt and confused as you are, believe it or not, even if it didn't start out that way. When my LD wife read the first chapter of SSM, she cried.
She and I have come a LONG way, and I no longer think we're headed for divorce. However, you should be ready for things to get harder in some ways before they can get easier. I went from dreading the next 50 years of my loveless, sexless, lifeless marriage to dreading divorce to slowly working my way back to a marriage I could be happy in. We're not perfect, but we're both making an effort now and happier than we were when we got married.
Thank you for the replies.
The ironic thing about all this is....
IF my wife came up to me and said "I am going to divorce/cheat on you tomorrow if you don't (mow the yard, clean house etc....) I would wake up and do something!
Turn the tables and she is ok...pack your bags and send child support. It makes no sense to me.. Ok back to my e-reader.
The ironic thing about all this is....
IF my wife came up to me and said "I am going to divorce/cheat on you tomorrow if you don't (mow the yard, clean house etc....) I would wake up and do something!..
So, pretend she said those words.....now go back to your e-reader and figure out hot to DB and win her back. If you can say what you posted you understand part of the problem. In my experience, Getting a Life (GAL) is a very important step in changing things to rebuild a marriage.
Good luck.
good luck with your wife - you'll need it.
We only get your side of the story. It would be great if your wife would post here too.
It sounds as if she is really angry, but doesn't really deal with the anger constructively.
It also sounds like you have totally abrogated your power in the relationship, and that she has no intention in letting you have it back.
It also sounds like you want the marriage way more than she does and have absolutely no bargaining power.
What you need is a sense that if she continues to impose celibacy on you that you have some options...which you have.
All or almost all of the people here advocate for marriage over divorce. I agree. But a marriage shouldn't be used as a club to pound you into submission. It is time to come up with some of your own terms and begin serious negotiations.
You seem to suspect that she wants a divorce. And if she does, your not giving her an excuse for one is only a temporary solution. I don't like divorce either. But, my personal point of view is that if a woman wants to put unreasonable demands on my sex life, then that's a step too far.
When two people marry, there is an understanding (usually) that the couple will remain faithful. But there is also an understanding that they love each other, want to please each other, and will have a reasonable sex life.
Simply depriving a spouse of sex is, in my opinion, as much of a betrayal as adultery. It is sort of adultery in reverse. If you tolerate it, you are going to get more of the same.
Stand up for yourself, and explain to your wife that things DO have to change. If she refuses counseling then go by yourself and get some support and guidance. If you don't think that this can easily go on for another 20 years, think again. I know from my own experience and for many of those who are on this forum. It won't end until you do something to end it.
Why am I here. I feel my marriage is sex starved. I cried when they said the national average is 85 times a year and mine is 12.
What infuriates me is that she calls me a sex maniac for wanting more than once a month.
Ironically in the midst of all this she states that if I ever cheated the marriage is over.
I am almost to the point that I feel, she WANTS me to cheat, so we get divorced, and everything is my fault.
Dear Arkansasguy,
I feel for you. All I can say is that my h and both worked at demanding jobs and then after the birth of our 2nd child, I lost most of my libido. I assume it was hormonal as I was only 32. I recall wondering what was going on and whether it was permanent. I had friends share with me their same experience and all of us had given birth right before the big drop. When the baby turned 2 I began to exercise more (I was in the military) and noticed that my libido was returning, in full bloom. I can't recall which was first, the exercise or the libido but I got in shape and was "back to normal." Same thing happened after baby #3 too, although this time I knew it was temporary and it was.
My point in all this is that I don't believe it's that rare, BUT she does have to talk to someone about it. I'm assuming she enjoyed it more, before the kids?
Also, kudos to you for not mentioning the weight thing but most women who "feel fat" also stop being interested in sex as much do to self esteem and self consciousness.
Bottom line is she needs to feel that while this MAY be a natural but temporary event, it's wearing on YOU, and B/C YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HER HEALTH, you'd like her to find out if she's really alright medically. (Aside from the obvious hormones, I also know a friend who's thyroid activity plunged after childbirth (not saying it's related but her timing sure was weird) and she started on meds and within 90 days was interested again.
Please also have your w read the Five Love Languages by Chapman. In that book it'll become evident to her that YOUR love language or one of them, is sexual. And that "tank" of yours is not being filled. Plus you will learn her love language and be able to fill hers too, and that may work.
If you think she loves you, and I bet she does., then she just really needs to know how it makes you feel undesired and uncared for, etc. At least you'll know you were clear with her and that it was her actual conscious choice to deny you an element unique and exclusive to marriage. So many of my girlfriends are amazed that their h's miss sex that much, b/c those women do not. She needs to know your libido has NOT dropped and it's not abnormally high.
Good luck - you are in the right place. Hopefully this is a temporary stop...
Thanks for the replies. All I can say is this really [censored]. Nothing has changed. I feel so used. I feel like a roomate or a friend. She wants the perks of the second check, someone to help with the kids, do household stuff, expects me to be a good father and thats it. I honestly have no clue why I even sleep in the same bedroom or bed with her. I could send her a child support check and let her hire a nanny, gardner, and maid and she'd probably not know or care I am gone.
This is so infuriating. I am getting mader and angrier by the day. For as smart as she is she is clueless. She asks why I am grouchy, and I tell her as she stares at me with deer in the headlight look, and replies "you'll get over it". I ask her if she wants a divorce and her reply is " I am still here aren't I?"
I can honestly say I can NOW understand why some people cheat. When you are tired of begging, pleading and saying I need this....and it all falls on deaf ears you must take care of yourself.
12X a year is ridiculous. I have NEVER had as little sex until I got married. I am 40, not 80. I am mad and in a foul mood, so I am sorry for rambling.
Goodnight all!
First posting is good therapy.
I feel for you as I have thought many of the same thoughts at one time. Know that you are not alone or unique.
Now, the basoc set of questions are rather than putting effort into anger, what are you doing to change the situation?
One of the wonderful things about MWD is her practical approach, especially to me 180's and GAL. A 180 is trying something different, since what you have been doing in the marriage isn't working. So, the question for you is what have you tried to do different that has produced results? If you anger has kept you from seeing the results, then what have you been trying differently (in a loving positive way) to change the dynamic in your relationship?
Often times people need to work on Getting a Life (GAL) and making changes in themselves to gain confidence needed to make changes in their relationship. So the question for you is what are you doing to GAL and what accomplishments have you made in your GAL plan?
Here's a woman's view, again. I posted to you before but do not recall you responding so, one more time...
Thanks for the replies. All I can say is this really [censored].
Nothing has changed.
well, What did YOU do to help things change?
I noticed zero response to the issues I raised to you, as a woman.
If you are going to check into "sex statistics" to keep score (super helpful...NOT), check this one.
1) Women report their lowest sex drive occurs in the first 2-3 years after the birth of their 2nd (or last) child.
2) Women report their h's contribution to child care and housework 60% LOWER than their h's describe...
You said the SL used to be really good before the kids--that's good news. She knows what it's like for it to be good.
Imo, it's a 3 fold issue: Why her sex drive is lower now...
1) it's A Natural hormonal cycle--she can see a doctor for this. But she may have to change forms of birth control and that has its' own issues. YOU can change with condoms but Idk how you two feel about those. IF the BC she's using now is dropping her libido plus the natural cycle of it, well, there are lots of options out there that don't affect her hormones as much or at all. If you don't want anymore kids, one of you could get a vasectomy...
2) The weight thing--good for you not whining about that. But SHE knows and SEES it and does not feel attractive. Dim the lights, compliment her sexiness as much as possible & be sincere about it.
3) the way you are YOU handling this & How YOU are treating her.
These are the reasons, I'm betting. You can support her in the first two, and you can COMPLETELY CHANGE #3...
Again I ask, what did YOU do to change things?
If you act half as angry at home as you sound here (I know you might not but...) then I doubt you'll get any. No one's attracted to an angry partner. Talk about feeling used...
I feel so used. I feel like a roomate or a friend.
I sure wonder what SHE would say about^^^.Are you a "friend" to her? Doesn't sound that way. I wonder if she'd say maybe the same thing about her feelings?? Oh and btw,
the victimhood approach you're taking, and your anger, is not attractive and it's NOT Effective. You know, as in "not working"...
DBing is about the simple but radical idea, that we should do WHAT WORKS FOR our marriages, and Do NOT Do, what does not work for them.
We don't delve into childhood issues, undefined historic angst, past abuse or baggage about the time Timmy fell in the well. That therapy certainly has its' place, but it's not here.
Hence the need for new approaches on your end.
I feel for you; I really do.
While denying your spouse sex for non physical reasons, is wrong, it's NOT adultery, so anyone telling you that is prepping for the big justification....
What's to stop that person from claiming they are "not getting enough"
b/c in Penthouse, the "average" man gets sex every day, sometimes twice
....so now, HE gets to cheat. 
OR maybe he's getting more than the average BUT IT 'S NOT ENOUGH FOR HIM SO HE GETS TO CHEAT too...
....blah blah blah justifications!...
Instead, if this is reaching the crisis stage, you tell her before hand that this is becoming a deal breaker, but YOU CHANGE your approach too.
Ask her what she needs/wants from you to make love more. What has to happen?
We are not looking for multiple conditions precedent...it's not an obstacle course. But dig deep, what is it that she needs FROM YOU to have sex more often?
If my h asked me that, saying he felt hurt and rejected without sex more often, but wanted to know WHAT HE COULD TO DO TO HELP THINGS MOVE ALONG...(assuming he didn't keep complaining/criticising)
but made me feel as if we were working together to come together... I would be very touched.
I enjoy the intimacy of ml even if I am not in the mood enough to think I'll "get my cookies too". But that depends a lot on how I'm feeling emotionally about h. These days, that's the biggest factor really. When we feel close, not just "lusty" but happy &celebratory, b/c our d22 graduated from college, or ML to comfort b/c of the death of his mother.
So sex is a lot of things that connect us. Not all about the physical release. So, how often Do you massage her back or feet, and touch her NON sexually much? You know, without expectation? Is it more than 3 minutes?
She wants the perks of the second check,
Oh come on, She works 60 hours a week!! I think she's exhausted. Just b/c most women don't die from childbirth in this nation, doesn't mean it doesn't take a lot out of you and yes I mean a good year or so to heal and be yourself again. 2-3 years til you're hormonally where you were before. And she does most of the childcare, so What are you doing while "working from home"?Seriously.... I sure wonder what SHE would say SHE does, vis a vis You, on this issue..food for thought
someone to help with the kids, do household stuff, expects me to be a good father and thats it. (Isn't that what you expect from her, plus sex? And what else is a husband- but a good father, partner and lover? Am I missing something?
Like I said, what would SHE think of that ^^^ comment? We are only hearing your side, of course. It's important for us to envision how she's feeling.
When we had our 2nd child & I was working full time and h was in med school, he studied at home with headphones on. Drove me crazy b/c I did all the work plus the job while he shut us out...sound familiar?
Hey, He wasn't at a bar drinking, granted. But my BIL&SIL stayed with us for 2 months during that time
and both said, "j, YOU have the hardest life of anyone I know !" I swear they said that. They didn't say that to h. He went to work and worked hard, and came home and worked some more on his work. His career/studies were his priority. I did everything else. I was exhausted.
I honestly have no clue why I even sleep in the same bedroom or bed with her. I could send her a child support check and let her hire a nanny, gardner, and maid and she'd probably not know or care I am gone.
This is so infuriating. I
am getting mader and angrier by the day.
How's that attitude working for you?
Ask yourself, do You want to be "right" or do you want to be happy? I hear a lot of wounded ego and hurt pride and I DO GET THAT...but don't make choices based on those factors, please.
You have to work on YOU...Did you read the Div Busting books at all??
For as smart as she is she is clueless. She asks
why I am grouchy, and I tell her as she stares at me with deer in the headlight look, and replies "you'll get over it". I ask her if she wants a divorce and her reply is " I am still here aren't I?"
I can honestly say I can NOW understand why some people cheat.
When you are tired of begging, pleading and saying I need this....and it all falls on deaf ears you must take care of yourself.
HOW ABOUT YOU TRYING A DIFFERENT APPROACH?...for a man "as smart as you are"...sheesh!!! Hard to read that without rolling my eyes. Do you see your own words and not think about them? Hire a DB coach asap b/c I am not getting through to you. Just commiserating only makes it worse.
FYI, No one is attracted to a grouchy man, or a pouting man or a whiner. It's not appealing. You came here awhile back & I posted a long post to you to give you a woman's perspective. And?? Nada.
You return to say "nothings changed" and you're "angry"...well...no surprise.
You report no change in your approach...so, um, what'd you expect? 12X a year is ridiculous. I have NEVER had as little sex until I got married. I am 40, not 80.
I am mad and in a foul mood, so I am sorry for rambling.Goodnight all!
if you actually want things to improve, (and some people don't, They think they do but what they really want is to vilify their spouse and justify an affair)
They do NOT want to work on themselves...they believe the WHOLE problem is their spouses.
They fail to realize [b]how empowering it is to have issues of your own and you can work on those. YOU CAN FIX YOU......You must and can change you, and ONLY YOU...
What are your 180s? What are your GAL? Anytime for those?
So
READ THE DB BOOKS
AND IMPLEMENT THEM AND TELL US HOW YOUR NEW APPROACHES WORK OR NOT, AND THEN WE CAN HELP...
YES IT'S FINE TO VENT HERE BUT YOU DO HAVE TO
CHANGE YOUR WAYS TO
CHANGE YOUR MARRIAGE....that's just a fact.
[/b]
You DO need to do at least one 180. Not to get her to have sex with you, just because you need it for yourself.
You DO need to GAL. Not to get her to have sex with you, just because you need it. Because it will make your life better for you.
You asked her whether she wants a divorce . . . was that your way of telling her that you might want one, if not now, then eventually? If so, you're going to have to sit her down and tell her exactly what you mean. I have done both (the passive-aggressive asking whether she wants something, and the scary but necessary speaking of truth) and only one ever got me anywhere.
I'm not blaming you for being passive-aggressive in your situation--it's a normal, even reasonable response--I'm just saying that I've been there and it doesn't work. Closing your eyes when someone throws a jab at your face is normal and reasonable, too, but because it doesn't work, people train themselves not to do it.
I can honestly say I can NOW understand why some people cheat. When you are tired of begging, pleading and saying I need this....and it all falls on deaf ears you must take care of yourself.
You know, it's interesting . . . Ira Glass recently said that his mother specialized in counseling couples after infidelity, and she found that many of her clients agreed that their marriages were happy . . . but they'd still cheated. They were surprised themselves.
In any case, if you can't make it work with your wife, you owe it to yourself and to her to leave rather than cheat. I am NOT advising you to leave, and I realize you're more likely venting some feelings that you don't plan to act on (again, I've been there.) But don't let your thoughts dwell on ways to avoid taking responsibility for what you want too much. If your personal integrity leads you to demand a marriage with a strong sex life, and you find you can't have that with your wife, cheating will almost never make things better. If your wife wants to release you to an open marriage, and you can handle that, that's another story . . . . but as you're clearly finding out, this stuff goes a lot deeper than physical sexual release for most people.
I feel so used. I feel like a roomate or a friend. She wants the perks of the second check, someone to help with the kids, do household stuff, expects me to be a good father and thats it. I honestly have no clue why I even sleep in the same bedroom or bed with her. I could send her a child support check and let her hire a nanny, gardner, and maid and she'd probably not know or care I am gone.
What did she say when you told her all that, verbatim?
Have you done that?
It's harder than it sounds. But I'm dead serious. If that's the way you feel, you're not going to get anywhere unless you can say to your wife, "Honey, here's the thing: I feel used. I feel like your roommate, and I never wanted to be your roommate. I feel like your friend, but I don't want to be just friends. I feel like you want everything from me except the love I'm trying to give you when we have sex. I feel like I'm only valuable because I bring in money and help with the kids, and if you had a nanny and a trust fund to replace me, I might not matter at all around here. I feel like we shouldn't even sleep in the same bed, because we don't really share it as man and wife. I don't know how much of this you've understood before, but this is how I feel."
But that's not enough. Then you say some version of this, and the tough part is, you have to mean it before you say it:
"I realize that's not all your fault, and I don't think you want me to feel that way, but I'm trying to be honest with you about how I feel in our marriage right now. Now, I'm going to be doing some new things to try to make this right. I hope you'll join me when you're ready. If we don't both start making some changes, I don't think we can stay together, because I won't accept a sexless marriage."
Of course that all has to be done in your words, and you'll say some things that aren't there and leave out some things that are. But the gist of it is to tell her the truth about how you feel, tell her you accept responsibility but also hold her responsible, and commit to doing something about it . . . . and honestly tell her what you're afraid of and what the consequences are if you (both) fail to deal with the problems.
Here's a woman's view, again. I posted to you before but do not recall you responding so, one more time...
Thanks for the replies. All I can say is this really [censored].
Nothing has changed.
well, What did YOU do to help things change?
I noticed zero response to the issues I raised to you, as a woman.
If you are going to check into "sex statistics" to keep score (super helpful...NOT), check this one.
1) Women report their lowest sex drive occurs in the first 2-3 years after the birth of their 2nd (or last) child.
2) Women report their h's contribution to child care and housework 60% LOWER than their h's describe...
You said the SL used to be really good before the kids--that's good news. She knows what it's like for it to be good.
Imo, it's a 3 fold issue: Why her sex drive is lower now...
1) it's A Natural hormonal cycle--she can see a doctor for this. But she may have to change forms of birth control and that has its' own issues. YOU can change with condoms but Idk how you two feel about those. IF the BC she's using now is dropping her libido plus the natural cycle of it, well, there are lots of options out there that don't affect her hormones as much or at all. If you don't want anymore kids, one of you could get a vasectomy...
2) The weight thing--good for you not whining about that. But SHE knows and SEES it and does not feel attractive. Dim the lights, compliment her sexiness as much as possible & be sincere about it.
3) the way you are YOU handling this & How YOU are treating her.
These are the reasons, I'm betting. You can support her in the first two, and you can COMPLETELY CHANGE #3...
Again I ask, what did YOU do to change things?
If you act half as angry at home as you sound here (I know you might not but...) then I doubt you'll get any. No one's attracted to an angry partner. Talk about feeling used...
I feel so used. I feel like a roomate or a friend.
I sure wonder what SHE would say about^^^.Are you a "friend" to her? Doesn't sound that way. I wonder if she'd say maybe the same thing about her feelings?? Oh and btw,
the victimhood approach you're taking, and your anger, is not attractive and it's NOT Effective. You know, as in "not working"...
DBing is about the simple but radical idea, that we should do WHAT WORKS FOR our marriages, and Do NOT Do, what does not work for them.
We don't delve into childhood issues, undefined historic angst, past abuse or baggage about the time Timmy fell in the well. That therapy certainly has its' place, but it's not here.
Hence the need for new approaches on your end.
I feel for you; I really do.
While denying your spouse sex for non physical reasons, is wrong, it's NOT adultery, so anyone telling you that is prepping for the big justification....
What's to stop that person from claiming they are "not getting enough"
b/c in Penthouse, the "average" man gets sex every day, sometimes twice
....so now, HE gets to cheat.
OR maybe he's getting more than the average BUT IT 'S NOT ENOUGH FOR HIM SO HE GETS TO CHEAT too...
....blah blah blah justifications!...
Instead, if this is reaching the crisis stage, you tell her before hand that this is becoming a deal breaker, but YOU CHANGE your approach too.
Ask her what she needs/wants from you to make love more. What has to happen?
We are not looking for multiple conditions precedent...it's not an obstacle course. But dig deep, what is it that she needs FROM YOU to have sex more often?
If my h asked me that, saying he felt hurt and rejected without sex more often, but wanted to know WHAT HE COULD TO DO TO HELP THINGS MOVE ALONG...(assuming he didn't keep complaining/criticising)
but made me feel as if we were working together to come together... I would be very touched.
I enjoy the intimacy of ml even if I am not in the mood enough to think I'll "get my cookies too". But that depends a lot on how I'm feeling emotionally about h. These days, that's the biggest factor really. When we feel close, not just "lusty" but happy &celebratory, b/c our d22 graduated from college, or ML to comfort b/c of the death of his mother.
So sex is a lot of things that connect us. Not all about the physical release. So, how often Do you massage her back or feet, and touch her NON sexually much? You know, without expectation? Is it more than 3 minutes?
She wants the perks of the second check,
Oh come on, She works 60 hours a week!! I think she's exhausted. Just b/c most women don't die from childbirth in this nation, doesn't mean it doesn't take a lot out of you and yes I mean a good year or so to heal and be yourself again. 2-3 years til you're hormonally where you were before. And she does most of the childcare, so What are you doing while "working from home"?Seriously.... I sure wonder what SHE would say SHE does, vis a vis You, on this issue..food for thought
someone to help with the kids, do household stuff, expects me to be a good father and thats it. (Isn't that what you expect from her, plus sex? And what else is a husband- but a good father, partner and lover? Am I missing something?
Like I said, what would SHE think of that ^^^ comment? We are only hearing your side, of course. It's important for us to envision how she's feeling.
When we had our 2nd child & I was working full time and h was in med school, he studied at home with headphones on. Drove me crazy b/c I did all the work plus the job while he shut us out...sound familiar?
Hey, He wasn't at a bar drinking, granted. But my BIL&SIL stayed with us for 2 months during that time
and both said, "j, YOU have the hardest life of anyone I know !" I swear they said that. They didn't say that to h. He went to work and worked hard, and came home and worked some more on his work. His career/studies were his priority. I did everything else. I was exhausted.
I honestly have no clue why I even sleep in the same bedroom or bed with her. I could send her a child support check and let her hire a nanny, gardner, and maid and she'd probably not know or care I am gone.
This is so infuriating. I
am getting mader and angrier by the day.
How's that attitude working for you?
Ask yourself, do You want to be "right" or do you want to be happy? I hear a lot of wounded ego and hurt pride and I DO GET THAT...but don't make choices based on those factors, please.
You have to work on YOU...Did you read the Div Busting books at all??
For as smart as she is she is clueless. She asks
why I am grouchy, and I tell her as she stares at me with deer in the headlight look, and replies "you'll get over it". I ask her if she wants a divorce and her reply is " I am still here aren't I?"
I can honestly say I can NOW understand why some people cheat.
When you are tired of begging, pleading and saying I need this....and it all falls on deaf ears you must take care of yourself.
HOW ABOUT YOU TRYING A DIFFERENT APPROACH?...for a man "as smart as you are"...sheesh!!! Hard to read that without rolling my eyes. Do you see your own words and not think about them? Hire a DB coach asap b/c I am not getting through to you. Just commiserating only makes it worse.
FYI, No one is attracted to a grouchy man, or a pouting man or a whiner. It's not appealing. You came here awhile back & I posted a long post to you to give you a woman's perspective. And?? Nada.
You return to say "nothings changed" and you're "angry"...well...no surprise.
You report no change in your approach...so, um, what'd you expect? 12X a year is ridiculous. I have NEVER had as little sex until I got married. I am 40, not 80.
I am mad and in a foul mood, so I am sorry for rambling.Goodnight all!
if you actually want things to improve, (and some people don't, They think they do but what they really want is to vilify their spouse and justify an affair)
They do NOT want to work on themselves...they believe the WHOLE problem is their spouses.
They fail to realize [b]how empowering it is to have issues of your own and you can work on those. YOU CAN FIX YOU......You must and can change you, and ONLY YOU...
What are your 180s? What are your GAL? Anytime for those?
So
READ THE DB BOOKS
AND IMPLEMENT THEM AND TELL US HOW YOUR NEW APPROACHES WORK OR NOT, AND THEN WE CAN HELP...
YES IT'S FINE TO VENT HERE BUT YOU DO HAVE TO
CHANGE YOUR WAYS TO
CHANGE YOUR MARRIAGE....that's just a fact.
[/b]
Well..here we are 2 weeks later....
What have I done different....
1. I stopped any action that could be construed by her as sexual. (which right now to her is anything other than a goodbye kiss in the morning and a goodnight kiss...provided we go to bed at the same time which is rare.
2. I have stopped any conversation about sex.
3. I have started working on a classic muscle car I have, and some computer games aka Getting a Life (GAL). I can only take the OWN so much as thats all she watches.
Changes
I took over 90+ percent of all household duties. She would cook 1 to 2 meals, and do her laundry and the kids( I mess it up per her) My laundry comes out fine.( I do it myself)
With this. The worked the previous Saturday. I have both kids 3 and 22 months. Wife left at 8am and did not return till 7pm. I had the house cleaned, dishes done, kids dressed and fed. Had dinner layed out ready to throw in the frydaddy when she got home. I contrast that with the weekday she was off and daycare was closed(holiday) but I had to work. House look like a bomb went off.. or we had a home invasion. Lunch dishes in the sink. I didn't say a word...(different) I had to clean up the next day.
With
"1) Women report their lowest sex drive occurs in the first 2-3 years after the birth of their 2nd (or last) child. "
We are there. Add in the depo shot, poor self esteem (weight issues) and probably a sprinkle of depression.
"2) Women report their h's contribution to child care and housework 60% LOWER than their h's describe..."
As for child care. Wife does take the kids to school at 8:30 as I leave before 8am. Wife does not go to work till 9am. I pick up the kids and keep them from 5pm to 7pm when she gets home. I also watch them all day the 1 to 2 Saturdays she works a month. SO I actually spend more alone time with my kids than she does. Not complaining about it.
It just makes me realize that she has physical, psychologial or emotional issues right now. I should be as tired and depressed as she is, but yet am not.
"3) the way you are YOU handling this & How YOU are treating her.
"
With this it does bother me. The lions share of stuff is on me. I work a 40 hour job versus her 60, but factor in the part time stuff I do nights and weekends from home and we break even. I have been biting my toungue and dealing with it.
Apparently wife and I are NOT on the same pages with love languages. I am acts of service....Which to wife is NOTHING, but "stuff I should be doing anyway". Still trying to figure hers out.
"If you don't want anymore kids, one of you could get a vasectomy..."
This is a sore point. I have a son from a previous relationship, With and I have two. SO I have 3 total. I DO NOT want anymore. She wants 1 more in a year or so. I have no clue how she plans to magically get a sex drive in 2 years. Until things get better...which to me would be once a week and she returns to her old self I do not want another kid.
We rarely get any alone time now. Another child would make it worse. IMHO.My parents are out of state and out of picture, and her parents are basically raising her sisters son, so they have little time for our kids, plus her sister is pregnant... Thats another story....Wife only trust her mother or me to watch the kids.
Seriously it is like a soap opera here.
I hope I answered the questions.
You asked her whether she wants a divorce
Been there done that. My 1st wife starting having an affair a year and a half into the marraige. She dropped the D bomb and rushed through a quickie divorce, when she knew the new guy would hang around. I was very angry with her so I wanted her lying cheating tail out.
So yes, I was blindsided before, and did not want that to happen again. Ironically, Ex-wife was sleeping with her husband(me) and her boyfriend at the same time. The no sex with current wife set all sorts of red flags off for me. I would rather her be honest even if it is painful rather than pretend everything is ok, only to come home and find all her stuff gone and her with it.
What did she say when you told her all that, verbatim?
Have you done that?
To quote her. "You know where the door is, pack up your @@@@ and get out then".
In a nutshell... She does not feel, or acknowledge there is a problem. If there is, it is my fault and I must "deal with it".
I am selfish for wanting sex more than every 4 to 6 weeks, and she is not for depriving me.
I am going to give her some serious space...IE roughly 4 weeks from now before mentioning this again to see what happens.
Back to the book
....What have I done different....
1. I stopped any action that could be construed by her as sexual. (which right now to her is anything other than a goodbye kiss in the morning and a goodnight kiss...provided we go to bed at the same time which is rare.
2. I have stopped any conversation about sex.
3. I have started working on a classic muscle car I have, and some computer games aka Getting a Life (GAL). I can only take the OWN so much as thats all she watches.
...It just makes me realize that she has physical, psychologial or emotional issues right now. I should be as tired and depressed as she is, but yet am not.
....Apparently wife and I are NOT on the same pages with love languages. I am acts of service....Which to wife is NOTHING, but "stuff I should be doing anyway". Still trying to figure hers out.
A couple of thoughts.
While a good 180 is probably to stop any action that can be construed as sexual, be sure that you don't stop any actions that can be seen as "affectionate."
Let me elaborate on that a bit. By taking the pressure to perform sexually off the table, she still needs to feel loved. Feeling loved by another human being is very important.
Speaking of which, you really do need to figure out her languages of love. You really need to either talk to her about it or conduct some "sociological experiments" to learn which languages of love resonate with her. It really shouldn't be that hard to figure them out. Since acts of service is your biggie and she doesn't seem to be doing that, lets rule it out for the moment as one of her primary or secondary LL. That leaves (1) presents, (2) quality time, (3) words of affirmation or praise, (4) touch. Since she hasn't been touching you, we can probably also rule out touch. That narrows things down to (1), (2) or (3). Go out and buy her a thoughful present and tell her how much she means to you and see what the result is. If that doesn't seem to do much for her, get a babysitter, and take her out to dinner and spend time talking to her and listening to her, take her home and let her relax, then in the morning spend time with her again listening, validating, and letting her rant. If that doesn't seem to get a rise out of her then in you quality time tell her how proud you are of her devotion to her family to work 60 hour weeks and how important what she is doing for your family. Do it with conviction, so she feels appreciated. See if that brightens her mood. Conduct a set of sociologocial experiments until you find out what your wife's languages of love are then start using them to make her feel loved.
When she starts feeling loved, she may start to treat you better in the way you want to be treated.
As to your GAL projects of working on a muscle car and computer gaming. My view is work on the muscle car, but drop the computer gaming, instead take up something physcial. My suggestion would be to take up running, swimming, hiking, weightlifting, a martial art, ballroom dancing, country line dancing, yoga, rock sport climbing, etc. Something that will find a challenge, would like to be able to do, improve you physically, give you new skills, is somewhat "alpha male" in your wife's mind and will cause both you and your wife to view you in a whole different light.
My perspective on GAL is that it is kind of the ultimate 180. It is you changing who you are and improving yourself in ways you didn't think possible and doing something that changes how you view yourself and how your wife views you. It gives her something she can not ignore and forces her to say "he is changing, he is capable of change." It also gives her something to be "proud" about you and your ability to acoomplish something. Finally, it gives her a role model that someone can make huge changes in their life and succeed in things not thought possible.
If weight and body self image issues are some of her issues, you might especially want to do something GAL oriented that will provide her with a role model on what she can do, without you rubbing her nose in it or pushing her.
As someone who was in an SSM and came out the end, I think I know how angry and frustrated you feel. My advice is to forgive her, give her unconditional love, make her feel loved in her languages of love, focus on getting close to your children and making them feel loved, give her space to heal, encourage positive changes she initiates/makes at every opportunity, figure out what you did that contributed to your current problems (we all have some small ownership of our problems), ask her to forgive you for what you did to hurt her (once you have figured it out).
Good luck.
In a nutshell... She does not feel, or acknowledge there is a problem. If there is, it is my fault and I must "deal with it".
I am selfish for wanting sex more than every 4 to 6 weeks, and she is not for depriving me.
I am going to give her some serious space...IE roughly 4 weeks from now before mentioning this again to see what happens.
I saw your story and the responses and decided to sit quiet for a while to see what you discovered.
On a couple of points already mentioned in Y@H's post...drop the computer games as a GAL strategy. Go find yourself a good exercise strategy that allows you to think and get some exercise at the same time. For example, I walk at least 5 miles per day and that has allowed me to drop more than 40 pounds in the last year. That was not what I set out to do, but that was the result. It does give me space to think and decompress (I spread out my walking schedule so that it all is not in one stretch during a day). But it has also presented an interesting challenge to the structure of our lives.
The time @ work was one of the first things I noticed from your original post. This does not help since as much as half of your waking hours are spent working or commuting.getting ready for work. Is it really necessary or worth it? And consider that part of that might fit into an unconcsous preference not to be together for one or both of you.
The weight is an issue (for her and by extension for you) even if you are not making it a sticking point.
The threat she makes about an affair ending the marriage is her "bright line."
Is a non-sexual marriage your brightline? Its as much a threat as the affair
declaration. And if that's your brightline, you'd best be sure that you are willing to carry it out.
You've already found out what the reaction is when you compare to others, but what happened when you compared to your own relationship before the kids? Does she consider that behavior that she engaged in as being a sexual deviant? After all, that is what she is telling you that you are (now)when she calls you a sex maniac.
Q: Why would she wish to be in the same house with the kids with a sexual deviant? The answer might be that she doesn't and you best be prepared for that.
The withholding of anything that can be construed as remotely sexual (and right now that probably is anything except a good-bye kiss) is a dangerous game and at one-level, your wife probably does need to feel loved even though she does not want affection and intimacy and on that point I agree with Y@H. Don't view the duties you've assumed as either a quid pro quo or a way to give her a temporary break that it will fix anything. You'll likely see that backfire.
The more important point is to diffuse the anger (and that is what it is) over this. Take it on as a project to demonstrate to yourself that you can do this, alone if necessary, with no fanfare or expectation. There is a danger that your wife will feel that you neither "need" her or "want" her, but right now she probably does not even think in those terms except that you can't get along without sex. (Note: you can get along without sex, but your marriage will likely suffer not because of the lack of sex, but because the anger and the lack of intimacy that is available through a sexual relationship).
However, I also agree with you in the interim withdrawal of anything remotely sexual. And I hope you've done that without any fanfare whatsoever. Just know that 4-6 weeks will not be enough time, in all likelihood. Think more like 4-6 months before it even begins to dawn on her that you are not making ANY sexual requests of her. This is where things get tricky as she may just see it as proof of something else (you don't care, want or need her any longer).
I would recommend against turning her away if she comes to you affectionately as that would only reinforce those feelings of not being wanted/needed, etc. But I'd also be prepared to answer the "why" you haven't been pursuing her sexually any longer. Be honest. Its also clear you are frustrated at being turned away and being called a sex maniac. Why would you want to have sex with someone that does not want to be sexual with you or calls you a sexual deviant in the form of "sex maniac?"
You may encounter, through your abstinence, the accusation that you've met someone else. And you might. Just make sure its "you" that you meet and discover and not someone else.
It will likely get a lot worse before it gets better and at some point you may just have to decide that you've had enough. She might be right...it may be your problem and you may have to choose what to do about it. But part of the predicament is that it takes two to solve this problem.
How bad could it get? Well, you could end up arguing all the time and divorce, you (or she) could walk away. Or you could end up like me, in a completely sexless marriage with a spouse that is pretty much a housemate in a shared household arrangement. Its a matter of what you are willing to put yourself though and what you are willing to put up with.
The Captain
+1 on what the Captain says.
Glad to see an old familiar set of keystrokes.
So - hopefully this makes you feel a 'bit' better...but W and I haven't had sex in almost 14 months.
Yeah.
I check in from time to time. Haven't written anything until just recently.
The Captain
So - hopefully this makes you feel a 'bit' better...but W and I haven't had sex in almost 14 months.
Yeah.
Not to be 'competitive,' it can be much, much worse. Try 14 years, 2 months and 14 days!
But who's counting?
The Captain
In a nutshell... She does not feel, or acknowledge there is a problem. If there is, it is my fault and I must "deal with it".
I am selfish for wanting sex more than every 4 to 6 weeks, and she is not for depriving me.
I am going to give her some serious space...IE roughly 4 weeks from now before mentioning this again to see what happens.
I saw your story and the responses and decided to sit quiet for a while to see what you discovered.
On a couple of points already mentioned in Y@H's post...drop the computer games as a GAL strategy. Go find yourself a good exercise strategy that allows you to think and get some exercise at the same time. For example, I walk at least 5 miles per day and that has allowed me to drop more than 40 pounds in the last year. That was not what I set out to do, but that was the result. It does give me space to think and decompress (I spread out my walking schedule so that it all is not in one stretch during a day). But it has also presented an interesting challenge to the structure of our lives.
The time @ work was one of the first things I noticed from your original post. This does not help since as much as half of your waking hours are spent working or commuting.getting ready for work. Is it really necessary or worth it? And consider that part of that might fit into an unconcsous preference not to be together for one or both of you.
The weight is an issue (for her and by extension for you) even if you are not making it a sticking point.
The threat she makes about an affair ending the marriage is her "bright line."
Is a non-sexual marriage your brightline? Its as much a threat as the affair
declaration. And if that's your brightline, you'd best be sure that you are willing to carry it out.
You've already found out what the reaction is when you compare to others, but what happened when you compared to your own relationship before the kids? Does she consider that behavior that she engaged in as being a sexual deviant? After all, that is what she is telling you that you are (now)when she calls you a sex maniac.
Q: Why would she wish to be in the same house with the kids with a sexual deviant? The answer might be that she doesn't and you best be prepared for that.
The withholding of anything that can be construed as remotely sexual (and right now that probably is anything except a good-bye kiss) is a dangerous game and at one-level, your wife probably does need to feel loved even though she does not want affection and intimacy and on that point I agree with Y@H. Don't view the duties you've assumed as either a quid pro quo or a way to give her a temporary break that it will fix anything. You'll likely see that backfire.
The more important point is to diffuse the anger (and that is what it is) over this. Take it on as a project to demonstrate to yourself that you can do this, alone if necessary, with no fanfare or expectation. There is a danger that your wife will feel that you neither "need" her or "want" her, but right now she probably does not even think in those terms except that you can't get along without sex. (Note: you can get along without sex, but your marriage will likely suffer not because of the lack of sex, but because the anger and the lack of intimacy that is available through a sexual relationship).
However, I also agree with you in the interim withdrawal of anything remotely sexual. And I hope you've done that without any fanfare whatsoever. Just know that 4-6 weeks will not be enough time, in all likelihood. Think more like 4-6 months before it even begins to dawn on her that you are not making ANY sexual requests of her. This is where things get tricky as she may just see it as proof of something else (you don't care, want or need her any longer).
I would recommend against turning her away if she comes to you affectionately as that would only reinforce those feelings of not being wanted/needed, etc. But I'd also be prepared to answer the "why" you haven't been pursuing her sexually any longer. Be honest. Its also clear you are frustrated at being turned away and being called a sex maniac. Why would you want to have sex with someone that does not want to be sexual with you or calls you a sexual deviant in the form of "sex maniac?"
You may encounter, through your abstinence, the accusation that you've met someone else. And you might. Just make sure its "you" that you meet and discover and not someone else.
It will likely get a lot worse before it gets better and at some point you may just have to decide that you've had enough. She might be right...it may be your problem and you may have to choose what to do about it. But part of the predicament is that it takes two to solve this problem.
How bad could it get? Well, you could end up arguing all the time and divorce, you (or she) could walk away. Or you could end up like me, in a completely sexless marriage with a spouse that is pretty much a housemate in a shared household arrangement. Its a matter of what you are willing to put yourself though and what you are willing to put up with.
The Captain
14 years..14 months....No way. I can not see HOW that was done.
Computer games are are sore point. It's OK for her to watch 4 hours of the Opra network 7pm to 11pm...but god forbid I go play COD or a computer or xbox game for half an hour.
Outdoor physical activity is pretty much out the window here as tempuratures are already near 100 with heat indexes in the 105 to 110 range. At 10pm it's still in the 90's and just plain hot.
Work wise, I know she is NOT happy. She is jealous that I am home by 5pm to get the kids, do part time work from home in the evenings and weekends and make as much as she does. She looked into going back to school, but would need to do online classes at night(3 years for a BA).She goes not have a bachelors degree. Again she is pressed for time. I thought about doing an online MBA as I have a bachelors and could do that in less than 2 years online, then I could get a better job, and perhaps she could be a stay at home mom. She didn't seem too keen on the idea.
"You've already found out what the reaction is when you compare to others, but what happened when you compared to your own relationship before the kids? "
She does realize it is substantially less now than before kids. The way you described deviant, puts a perspective on things. No, I don't think she thinks about it that way, but the fact that to her that I seem to want it all the time and see does not allows herself to throw out names and such as she does not have a valid arguement, only excuses.
I'm tired
I have a headache.
The kids might hear.
I am not in the mood.
I have to get up early.
etc....
When we discuss how it was versus now, she complains that she is too tired. Workwise she worked more BEFORE we got married. 9 to 6 Monday thru Friday and every Saturday 9-6.
The more I work on this the MORE I realize that the lack of sex is not a cause but a symptom. She is not happy with her work, her weight, and has focuses her anger on me. No sex is the result.
At some point she is going to need to realize that there is a problem and she will need to work on it. Tine to tough it out for the next 6 months and see what happens.
Computer games are are sore point. It's OK for her to watch 4 hours of the Opra network 7pm to 11pm...but god forbid I go play COD or a computer or xbox game for half an hour.
This is the part where someone tells you that you're right, and that's not fair.
HOWEVER . . . the fairness is not the problem. The problem is that you're unhappy in your marriage. You see a problem. She really might not; even if she'd be happier not spending her whole night watching Oprah (much the same way a heroin addict would probably be happier not spending every night flying high) she probably doesn't think so; she may think she needs it.
Your videogames may be your way of connecting with friends, your way of staying out of the heat, your way of killing time, your way of avoiding intimacy with your wife, your way of displacing feelings of anger and resentment . . . .could be all or none of those.
The thing is, if you can't make changes for yourself unless you have a guarantee that your wife is going to reciprocate with a roughly equal change, you're doomed. You'll never be able to make any changes, because remember, her position right now is that your marriage is basically normal and OK--that the major problem the two of you have is YOUR perception that there's something wrong. Yes, she's wrong about that. No, it's not fair. It [censored]. But the way to decide whether to cut back on your gaming is to decide whether YOU would be happier, more fulfilled, more complete doing something else for at least part of that time.
I tried to lose weight to make my wife want me. Didn't work. I lost over 100 pounds, got discouraged when the novelty attraction wore off and she went back to freeze mode (because I hadn't really understood what I was doing) and gained it all back. This time I'm losing weight for my own reasons. I'm going to go skydiving when I get below the maximum weight at my chosen school. I'm going to be comfortable on an airliner at New Year's. I'm going to go back to BJJ and earn my blue belt. And yes, I admit it, I do want to be more attractive to women, but that's women, not just her. If our current renaissance goes sour and I ever conclude that she's just not that into me, if I have to walk away, I'll take my new body with me. I love her, I want her, I'm happy that we're finding so much more intimacy now, but my 180 is for me. If she's more attracted to a guy who did something about getting into shape, great! If she's not, somebody will be.
There is a very real possibility that your wife will, like my wife, sort of wake up and realize that you are finding ways to enjoy life, and that she wants to be part of that. But you can't know before you start. You have to figure out what your 180 needs to be.
Have you read the Sex-Starved Marriage? I forget. I finally got my wife to go to marriage counseling with me (Over three years into this process, counting from when I read SSM, and only after I'd completely given up on that possibility--after she'd been going to an individual therapist for about six months and I was starting to shop for my own.) Last week, at our second session, I mentioned that I'd read The Sex-Starved Marriage. The MC's comment was, "Well, she made a lot of money, all right."
I wasn't mad at him, but I did tell him honestly, "Hey, look, I realize you're a professional and you might not love these self-help books, but reading that book let me know that I wasn't alone, it gave me things to try when I was ready to give up, and when she read the first chapter it was like she finally understood what I'd been telling her about my suffering for years. It wasn't marriage counseling, but if I hadn't read it and applied it, I never would have gotten her to come to a marriage counselor. It took over three years as it was."
I was not joking when I said 14 years, 2 months and 14 days.
Last time was April 6, 1997.
But that is my story and just one outcome when a wife says "no." I haven't updated recently and I'll not hijack your thread to update here.
I've read Silly Old Bear's reply to you and have to say I mostly agree. Life isn't fair on this point and if computer games is a sore point, then let that go for the moment.
As to exercise in the heat...well, that's your choice but I walk/hike in all types of weather (I try to avoid thunderstorms and manage to avoid the tornadoes in April when they swept through) but a little heat (heat index at ~105 degrees is about my limit at this time of year) isn't a reason to not get out and do something healthy for yourself.
Although I did not set out to lose the weight, I lost more than 40 pounds through a fairly regular walking/hiking program where I set my own goals. Gave me lots of time to think through stuff.
She wants you to be reasonable and she's giving you all the reasons why you should. In the long0run you'll jave to decide for yourself what path you choose. You apparently have the time to do that.
The Captain
I'm not quite saying, let it go if it's a sore point. I'm saying, examine your actions as honestly and objectively as you can and look for things YOU are doing that contribute to your unhappiness. Think about what a day in your life would look like if you were happy. What would that mean in practical terms? What would you actually be doing?
One of the things I thought I would be doing if I were living the good life was working out every morning. So now, I come as close to that as I can. That's just one change. Cutting back on your gaming time might not be that for you . . . but if spending hours per night in front of a computer isn't making you happy, maybe it is. I do guarantee that there's SOMETHING you can do differently than you're doing now. Your wife would have a hard time making you miserable all by yourself.
If this all sounds stupid and I seem like I think I know everything, that's OK. Just keep it all in mind. Either it'll make a sort of sense one day, in which case you can use it, or it never will, in which case, no big loss.
Oh, and yes, heat [censored]. Maybe you could swim, or go cycling? One of the things I love about road cycling is that I'm going 20 mph most of the time and even if it's hot out, I'm in the breeze. It's not just about getting into a shape that looks good or tempts women; it's about feeling good.
Hey, Arkansas, where you at? It's hot everywhere now! The air-conditioned gym is the place to be now.
Hope you're having some fun and keeping your GAL rolling. If you're not, you could be, if you want.
90+ day update:
Self and relationship discovery abounds(on my part) Wife still her self. Wife has admited to with holding sex as punishment for behavior she deems bad. IE not taking out the trash, or something similar, but refuses to grant sex as a reward. That is messed up in itself.
Sadly I am turning into a walk away husband. She has turned us into roomates in effect, and that is how I am treating her. I took the family to the state fair last sunday, all was well. I watched both kids as she worked that saturday, even cleaned the house. I got nary a thanks, other that "it's household duties and she EXPECTED it to be done". My birthday was the prior thursday. No card, no gifts from her or the kids, no sex. We did go out to eat. However it was because she did not want to cook, and felt guilty about trying to make me cook on my birthday.
As to GAL....I have been working hard on my auto restoration project as much as time permits. Due to financial constraints I am doing as much small and cheap stuff as possible. The good side is that she is sadly forced to spend a few hours with the kids as I am outside. This is giving her a better understanding of how it can stress her out for the 2 hours I am outside, but yet I have to deal with it for 11+ hours when she works 2 weekends a month.
I have time to write this today as she took the kids and went with her mother, sister, and nephew halfway across the state to her grandmothers family reunion. This is a 100% her function. She asked me last night if I was going, I replied, it depends on your actions in the next few hours. She looked puzzled. Well she came to bed over 1hour after I did. almost midnight. So this morning she asked again and I told her No I was not going. I am upset that you can devote so much time to work, the kids schools party last night, and now devote a full day to family you see once a year, who otherwise have NOTHING to do with you, but you can't even give your husband 5 minutes!!
Hi Arkansasguy - I was just reading your thread bc I was a ld wife and I could relate with your w's side of your story. My H became passive aggressive and resentful for a lot of reasons but probably a primary one was unsatisfying sex life. Now he has completely withheld sex now since his vasectomy in February. He's withheld all affection of any kind since the bomb in June.
Anyway, I can second all the reasons others here gave you. W is probably depressed, doesn't feel sexy bc of her weight gain, tired from working. I found a million reasons - something happened during the day that I was resentful about, or we got in an argument right before bed, or the kids would hear, or it was late, birth control issues, or... And then I felt bad too because I knew I was disappointing my H, and that led me to feel even more insecure. Toward the end I started trying on my own to figure out ways to get more comfortable - I tried putting on music so the kids wouldn't hear, but I think that annoyed him. I tried telling him a specific way that I really enjoyed being kissed, and I think he took that as criticism. I say "I think" instead of "I know" because we also had difficulty communicating - it was very hard to talk about intimate things and I think my efforts hurt his self-esteem so that he just shut down.
So I read with interest your side and how you're trying to solve this problem in your marriage. I can tell you that the whining and resentment is 100% unattractive. If my h suggested that he would only be attending a family function depending on "your actions in the next few hours" there is NO WAY I would have been able to respond positively to that. I would have felt threatened, turned off, unloved, and kind of grossed out by the quid pro quo of it.
You also do a lot of comparing and justifying. You seem to think she should not be tired because you're doing as much as she is. You are not her. You don't get to dictate when she's tired or what she's good at handling. Now, you're not going to be able to change her by insisting on change, but you CAN change you and thus change the unhealthy dynamic in your relationship. Try reframing things in your mind. Do the things you do because you can, and because you're good at them, and because you love her. Stop bean counting.
Do you love her? By how you describe her, she sounds completely unattractive. Her behavior as you describe it is petty, mean, unaffectionate, angry and resentful. If you want to be married to her, think of the things you can adore in her right now, and focus on them. Tell her what they are and see if she responds to those words.
Try touch - tell her one day that you absolutely don't want sex that day or the next so she can relax, and try different kinds of touch to see if she responds positively. A hug instead of a kiss goodbye. A touch on the arm. Compliment her hair while you brush it behind her ear. These are just ideas. I can tell you in a marriage where you know you're not satisfying your partner, every single touch - a footrub, hug, or brushing past in the kitchen means he's going to be expecting sex soon - the only way to avoid it is to find busy things to stay up till it's too late or else start an argument (I didn't do these things with intent...it was like I couldn't stop myself). If you have a promise that there won't be any followup demand, perhaps that will create some safe time for you to explore what helps her feel loved.
I can also tell you there are no quick fixes here. You've done something to cause extreme resentment in her...and you know what she's done to cause extreme resentment in you. You have an uphill battle to get over that and you're the only one working on it for now. But on this board you'll find others who have successfully gotten through this, and you'll do well to listen to them.
Do what works and don't do what doesn't. Have you found anything that makes her smile or act a little more warmly toward you?
You should feel proud that you're being so patient and working hard to save your marriage, especially for your kids.
I have a question for LD women who refuse sex and say it's overrated, unnecessary, or unimportant. If sex is so unimportant, would you mind if your husband had a friend with benefits that didn't otherwise threaten your marriage?
Sex is either important or unimportant to you. You can't have it both ways.
IMHO your question is based on faulty assumptions.
1- what lies beneath an LD woman's saying that sex "overrated, unnecessary, or unimportant"? I'll wager they mean it's not provided any pleasure/benefit for them. Or they are being passive aggressive and don't realize it, or can't stop it. Or they have a physical or emotional disorder. Or they don't care that much about staying married. You can't just take those words at face value.
2- "that didn't otherwise threaten your marriage" is something you can't know until after the damage is done. How can you guarantee you won't fall in love with the FWB or that she won't fall in love with you and create a problem for your W? How can you guarantee this won't be hurtful to your W? How can you guarantee that you'll feel good about yourself with this solution?
3- "it's either important or unimportant" is wrong. Even if a W can't bring herself to have sex with her H, it still can be a huge psychological issue, a source of great frustration and conflict, (in your case) a potential cause for your marriage to end. It's only unimportant/unnecessary if both partners agree that it is.
You have spun your problem in your posts in such a way as to lead us to your conclusion. You've tried everything, nothing works, you can't live without sex, and she's not going to provide it. We only know these things based on your interpretations. You seem to be begging this forum for permission to get a FWB instead of a D.
The only opinions that should matter in this very personal decision are yours and your wife's.
Adinva, I think of it as the question I'd like to ask such a woman in order to flush out a more truthful answer. And I agree the answer is probably going to be like the reasons you list.
As for point 2, there are no guarantees in any situation. Any statement is conditional on the present. Even a marriage that is good is not guaranteed to continue that way. Most marriage end in divorce or sustain unfaithfulness, or both. In matters of sex and love, if you need a guarantee, you'll never have either one of them regardless of the situation, be it marriage, FWB, or whatever.
But,yes, generally I agree with you. Which still means that what it boils down to, even if the LD woman doesn't really intend the particular meaning, is that what's important for her is that her husband stay celibate indefinitely. Not that she really wants it that way, but just that any alternative is more unpleasant for her.
In fact, I've even heard of women who refuse to have sex with their husbands, yet also insist that he not masturbate. So, yes, some LD women are living in total fantasy land.
As for this forum giving me permission, LOL. That's a good one. Guilt, moral approval, etc., are the least of my issues.
Here's the thing, SSM guy. I think asking the question you're asking is passive, if not passive aggressive. You're asking a question when what you should be doing is stating your position. If I were you, I would sit down with W, express my unwavering love and affection, admit that I haven't always if ever found the right way to communicate with her about sex, and then lay it down: I cannot live celibate and much as I love you I want to separate now and begin getting a divorce. I respect you enough to believe what you have said, that you will not change. However, I wish things were different and I'm willing to try anything while we're separated to turn this around. But I need you to know that I'm really serious - this is a need that I have and I need a partner who sees meeting that need as an act of love.
No whining, dealing, complaining. Express your reality and act on it. As you say, you've done everything else you can think of.
Adinva,
Hate to hijack this thread but I love getting your perspective. My wife is also LD, but historically (before the bomb) she would ML once every two weeks or so "out of a sense of duty". She was definitely passive aggressive about it, and would take out her resulting anger in other ways. To your point, this was a symptom of many other things being wrong in our marriage.
One of the things we did as part of our piecing, is that we agreed that I would never escalate physical affection, and that I would not initiate ML, the frequency would be up to her. At the same time, she agreed that she would try to keep to a once per week schedule.
The agreement on my part not to escalate physical affection has worked wonders in many ways, as she doesn't have to be afraid that kissing me will lead to an expectation to ML.
After a month or so of this, we agreed to go back on "my agenda" for frequency, but I was tortured by it -- I never want to go back to the passive aggressive sex of the past where it's obvious that she's just not interested, that make me feel terrible.
Probably like many men, I believe that if I could make the experience better for her, she would like it more. As a result, I've asked her many times to tell me what feels good, what she likes, etc., but she won't do it. She said that even talking about ML at all makes her either angry, or makes her want to cry.
There is no history of sexual abuse, she is not a rape victim, but did have some negative experiences as a younger woman when she felt pressured and decided that it was easier to give in than to say no. That seems to have really effected her.
I would love for her to see a therapist to work through these issues so that we can have a better sex life, but she refuses, because she says that it doesn't cause any issues for her -- if I'm not talking about it she spends zero time thinking about it.
From my perspective, ML can be so good and so pleasurable. So many of the books I've read talk about the fact that a mutually satisfying sex life is essential to a mutually satisfying marriage, and that one tends to reflect the other in many ways.
I really hate the thought of spending the rest of my life with someone who really is not motivated to have a better time ML.
Can you lend any insights or suggestions? I'd like some perspective on how to think about this, and Arkansasguy, my apology for the hijack.
Accuray
One of the things we did as part of our piecing, is that we agreed that I would never escalate physical affection, and that I would not initiate ML, the frequency would be up to her.
To me this sounds wonderful - it shows such caring on your part. I had a thought that maybe you could continue alternating with "her" weeks and "your" weeks. So it's not like, ok we tried that and now we need to get busy and ML. Give her her turns indefinitely.
even talking about ML at all makes her either angry, or makes her want to cry.
There's a lot of fear and hurt there. Probably thinking that she hasn't met your expectations all these years hurt her self-esteem. It definitely made me feel bad and inadequate when I wasn't happy with our sex life.
I think a possible key is to realize you can't make her like sex more, and you can't make her think a certain way. You can present to her the impact her behavior has on you - that if she could get help working through her fears and anxieties you'd feel it was a tremendous act of love for you.
Negotiating is important too - if you get her to agree to something that she then feels resentful about, there wasn't really a successful negotiation, she just backed down. Her need to not ML is as legitimate as your need to ML, and you've got to meet her needs in the negotiation as well as yours. Her needs could change but you can't just tell her they're not valid.
Have you been to MC together? That could be a place to start where she might later become more comfortable with the idea of IC. (It worked that way for me.) If the purpose is to go get her to want to ML, she might resist the idea, but if the purpose is to help you and her communicate your needs better and negotiate so that your M meets both of your needs as best as it can, maybe that's not so threatening.
I wish I had better answers for you, but I only can tell you what I would think or feel in similar situations. I think you have a lot going for your M now, and patience on this issue could help generate the goodwill required for her to want to get help just to benefit you and your M. I'll think more and be happy to share my viewpoint more if it helps.
Thank you Adinva,
I won't hijack Arkansas guy's thread anymore, I'll start my own if I need more help. Your feedback above was great!
Accuray
ssmguy...yes she wants it both ways. It is SELFISH for me to want it, but not SELFISH for her to cut me off for lack of a better term. She has stated big D if I cheated. She wants it both ways.
LOL...we have similar issues....It's all good.
I do realize the lack of sex is not the issue, but the result.
The headaches, tiredness is all a bad excuse. That's all they are excuses. I am tired after work, but I still do the dishes, etc.....If she was soooo tired after work...she would go to bed. Does she? No...she'll sit up and watch tv till 11pm.
I am here because I want to fix this versus divorce, have an affair/hire a hooker, or jerk off and quit bitching.
As for the passive aggressive stuff....at this point...NOTHING is working.
I am composing by B@#$/complaint list
I work 40 hours a week...she works 60
I take care of the kids 2hrs a day SOLO . 10hours a week....21 when she works saturdays.
Houscleaning, dishes, etc is 100% me. Diner She will actually cook once or twice a week. Same with me...takeout the rest.
The household chores she does, is her laundry and the kids. (I will mess it up) Funny my clothes come out fine.
She asks me for something...2 or three times a day. Can you open this, Let's all go to Walmart......I do all this stuff like a good little husband and when I try anything sexual, I get shot down immediately. Really? SO what is the point of trying at the moment?
I am not a husband or partner to her. This marriage is not 50/50...90/10 with me doing 90% and thats being generious.
She could come home to a clean house, kids asleep, dinner on the table, I could rub her feet, give her a 6 hour massage and she'd still tell me to sleep on the couch.
The signal she is sending is she wants
#1 a babysitter/nanny for her kids.
#2 a maid to clean her house
#3 a yardman to do the yardwork.
#4 a roomate to spilt the bills.
She has clearly indicated she does not want
#1 an equal partner
#2 any asssemblance of a husband
She has clearly stated that she
#1 has no desire want or need for intimacy or sex(at least not with me)
#2 Has no caring or feeling for me whatsoever.
In all honesty....If we had NO kids I would have divorced her long ago! I was married and divorced once before. 1st wife cheated on me and married the guy. Having to live without my first kid and the pain it caused IS the primo factor in trying to save marriage #2. I have 2 kids with wife 2.
I am not happy, angry, and resentful. I do not want to live like this. I am glad I can vent here because it falls on deaf ears elsewhere.
Arkansasguy,
I read over your whole thread again and you are gridlocked. Your W is making all the rules and bullying you when you push back. You do not want to get a "D", so you are afraid of making an ultimatum, because you do not want to enforce the "or else..."
I have been there!
I really don't think there is any way out of this without talking to your W and getting her to listen. That MAY require an ultimatum, and follow up to that discussion may require another ultimatum.
Therefore, you need to do a gut check: it's clear that this problem isn't going to solve itself, your W has indicated she is not willing to change, and in your view, you're doing everything you can without W's participation. *Are you willing to stay in this marriage assuming things don't change?*
If the answer to that question is "yes", then you need to work on getting used to 12x per year (or less), and figure out how you can approach W with a positive attitude in that context.
When I read your posts, you have many more complaints than just lack of sex. You fundamentally believe your contributions to the marriage are unbalanced, in your view 90%/10%. Reading between the lines, you would be willing to accept that if the sex were there, but without the sex, everything about it bothers you.
If the answer to your gut check is "No", then you need to confront W about the need to work with you, and make sure she understands that you mean it -- which may mean packing your bags and getting the h%*@ out *for now*. Withdrawing and becoming roommates will just create a self-reinforcing negative cycle. You will withdraw because you are not getting your needs met, your W will resent you for withdrawing and do even less to meet your needs, which will make you resentful and withdraw more, and around you go. Pretty soon you're in passive-aggressive hell.
My suggestion for your *initial* ultimatum would be to point out that you don't believe either of you are satisfied with the state of the M, that it's not just about sex. Explain that you would like the M to be mutually better, and you're willing to do the work to make it so. Although you're willing to put in the effort you can't do it alone, and you need her to work with you. If she refuses, starts to bully you, etc. Don't get emotional, remain calm, do not raise your voice. Simply state that she can choose to work with you on this or not, you can't force her. If she decides not to, then you will have your own decisions to make.
This is "high stakes poker", so you really have to make sure you're willing to follow through before you do it. Are you there yet? You sound like you're getting close.
If she DOES agree to work with you, definitely consider a good MC. She's not happy or getting her needs met either. If she were, she wouldn't be so quick to tell you to get out. She needs to step up in the area of ML, but you are going to need to step up in other ways too.
Per my other post, a couple things that worked with my W were to agree that I would never escalate physical touch -- which is to say that she could hug me without me pulling her towards the bedroom afterwards, etc. That "takes the edge off" and allows for physical contact without anxiety on her part.
The second is that I told her I would not initiate ML, but that I would like to ML X times per month, and I'd like her to make that happen.
I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" which you may enjoy, it talks a lot about LD. It's usually not caused by any one specific issue, the root of it is usually very complicated.
--Accuray
....I do realize the lack of sex is not the issue, but the result.
The headaches, tiredness is all a bad excuse. That's all they are excuses. I am tired after work, but I still do the dishes, etc.....If she was soooo tired after work...she would go to bed. Does she? No...she'll sit up and watch tv till 11pm.
I am here because I want to fix this versus divorce, have an affair/hire a hooker, or jerk off and quit bitching.
As for the passive aggressive stuff....at this point...NOTHING is working.
....She asks me for something...2 or three times a day. Can you open this, Let's all go to Walmart......I do all this stuff like a good little husband and when I try anything sexual, I get shot down immediately. Really? SO what is the point of trying at the moment?
...She could come home to a clean house, kids asleep, dinner on the table, I could rub her feet, give her a 6 hour massage and she'd still tell me to sleep on the couch.
....She has clearly indicated she does not want
#1 an equal partner
#2 any asssemblance of a husband
She has clearly stated that she
#1 has no desire want or need for intimacy or sex(at least not with me)
#2 Has no caring or feeling for me whatsoever.
In all honesty....If we had NO kids I would have divorced her long ago! I was married and divorced once before. 1st wife cheated on me and married the guy. Having to live without my first kid and the pain it caused IS the primo factor in trying to save marriage #2. I have 2 kids with wife 2.
I am not happy, angry, and resentful. I do not want to live like this. I am glad I can vent here because it falls on deaf ears elsewhere.
Now that your vent is over, let's look at the words as words have meaning.
You understand that this is not about sex. Good.
You know that you are angry and resentfull. Fine. By the way as your wife for a number of years, she also knows that from what you say, how you say it and your body language.
Yes, life is not fair. Take a number.
Why do you think she is asking you for things? Is it because she needs you to do them, or could it be her way of trying to make contact with you in as disfunctional way as it may be?
Are you sure she has no desire or need for intimacy or feeling for you? I felt that was what my wife was saying. What I learned was that she felt embarrised and like a sexual failure and that the problems were really with her and not about me. Are you absolutely sure he doesn't care about you?
Maybe she needs to heal before she can reach out to you in a way that you want her to reach out to you.
You might try to work on GAL and forgiving her. Rather than looking at her for what you want/need, focus on meeting your needs (not your carnal wants, but your needs) and the needs of your children.
Just a thought.
Good luck to you.
I was the LD partner in my marriage but felt like I was (and still am) doing 90% around the house. My advice (take with a grain of salt since I'm not sure I should give advice in my shoes!)
--I got angry/bitter about doing everything with the house/kids while H felt he could work extra hours, go out with coworkers, etc. (I also work full-time). In retrospect, I should have hired a babysitter for myself more often, and done more for me. This is still very hard for me to justify, but I needed to be happier and that would have helped. Get a life, enjoy the kids, versus slaving every night over things that just need to be done again the next night.
--Your wife is likely responding at least partly to your attitude around her. I would try a better attitude (maybe read the Happiness Project or Divorce Remedy) to help let go.
--Can you get her to counseling? We found a good counselor/sex therapist but it was too late (hopefully we will have another chance) Maybe there is an opportunity to get her talking and "restart" your marriage in a better way.
--Read the 5 Love Languages book...it may help. She may need something completely different than your acts of service to feel loved.
--Talk to her and be ready to leave if she really won't change (and you have made changes in yourself). Don't have an affair. She may need a wakeup call and she doesn't sound very happy either.
After reading your posts, all I got was that you're keeping score for the things you and her do. First off, this isn't a competition. If you want to do the dishes, housework, etc. then do it. If you don't, then don't. But don't do it just because you expect something back or that it should be fair.
In terms of your actions to change things. I really haven't seen anything that would make her attracted to you. I mean, so you stopped sexual advances. While that's fine for guys, women don't work that way.
Have you tried showing your W affection? I don't mean grabbing her @$$, but complimenting her and hugging her out of the blue? You aren't going to get immediate results, but give it time. You never know. You have to feed her emotions for her to give physically.
Next, I'd get rid of the old resentment you have about your XW. You seem to compare the two quite a bit and how you feel victimized by both. They aren't co-conspirators. Don't let your W pay for the sins of your XW. That's over with.
Think about it this way. When you meet a girl that you like for the first time, what do you? Grab her? Slip your tongue down her mouth? Of course not. You figure her out first. You engage.
Try that out. It's better than being pissed off all the time.