My DH and I have been married for 23 years. For most of our marriage he was the LD spouse. I begged, pleaded for him to get help. Well, he finally did and it turns out his Testosterine was extremely low.
In his mind, he is doing everything he should be doing to help our marriage. While I am grateful that he has taken this step, it still doesn't help me get over the hurt and feelings of low self esteem that I've carried with me now for most of our marriage.
My desire was probably way above average, now that I am on AD, that has dropped dramatically. To be fair, we were never a couple who went months w/out sex...maybe six weeks?? I don't really remember. I just remember him rarely approaching me, and when I approached him, at times (a lot of times) he would reject me. I once read here, that you are in a sense being rejected twice. The funny thing is, that our love making was always satisfying...I mean I think we would both agree that it was good (at least up until I started on the AD)
I am in counseling, but he, so far, has refused to go. Going through this has brought up insecurities I've had regarding his past. He is three years older than me, and I'm certain he had more sexual partners that me. I always wondered if that was part of the problem?? Was I not good enough.Do I measure up to these other women? He says I think too much and he doesn't think enough...so true!!
For the most part, our marriage has been good. We have a lot of fun together (both have a crazy sense of humor) and share a lot of the same values. I will add that another dimension to our marital problems is his binge drinking...he has curbed this in the past six months. He has held the same job for over 20 years and is a very kind and loving father.
When I try to talk to him about the hurt he just gets defensive or clams up. I don't know what to do anymore. Oh, something else. I have a chronic illness and am on disability (this has just happened the past five years, so probably doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on our ongoing problem).
Thanks for any help.
Lost and confused...welcome and sorry no one has answered you sooner.
Just so that I can really understand your post, will you please elaborate a bit more? For instance, it isn't clear to me if you are wanting more passion and intimacy from him, or if you are asking how you can let go of your resentment?
I can say that the combination of low testosterone and binge drinking can defintely cause a man to have a very low sex drive, so its not about his previous partners - or at least I would doubt that very highly! Also, given that you feel that you would both say that the sex is good when you do have it is a very good sign that you can probably recover your SSM with enough effort.
Another thing is this: I think that in general, people who are HD and feel that they are missing out on sex, are actually missing out on intimacy. As you probably know, physical intimacy is only one type of intimacy. But the other types of intimacy can be much more meaningful than the physical, so if they are missing it can be more painful than if the physical is missing. Do you have a clear idea in your mind of what exactly you want/need more of? Starting with that piece would help you a lot. Getting it clear in your own head what you want and need will help you move forward and then be able to tell him the same.
DQ
Thanks for the reply.
In answer to your question, I think I'm wanting it all! I do think that if I let go of my resentment, my words and actions may help him want to be more intimate.
I think besides the lack of the physical connection, I missed the intimacy. He doesn't share his feelings, or much about himself or his past, love making was, and is, one of the few ways I felt close to him. OK, it's funny I just went back and read your reply again and I saw where you basically said the same thing about intimacy. So, I agree with what you said.
He has cut way back on the binging and he just had his T checked again. It is up to over 700 now! I think we are moving in the right direction. I'm hoping that there will still be improvement over the coming months though. I can see some improvement, but it's not exactly where I want it to be. But, I know I have to be patient.
I had a major break through in therapy this past week. I was adopted as a toddler and although it was a positive experience in many ways, I am realizing the sense of loss and feelings of rejection I have felt over the years has shaped much of who I am. While I think my DH could certainly have done things differently, I know I have been difficult to live with at times and am not without blame. I think I felt the rejection even harder that many people when he didn't approach me sexually, or didn't share some of himself with me.
I don't know why I have obsessed about his past. I mean, I guess I just feel jealous of his old lovers. I don't know how many he had, he's never told me. I'm trying to figure out why that matters.
My sexuality is really a dichotomy and I'm not sure how much this plays into our problem. I love sex, but I have guilt about my past. I always felt I would stay a virgin until I got married. Well, I went with this guy for six years starting at age 16. We had sex when I turned 18, within 4 years we broke up (six months before our wedding date). I was so depressed. I ended up being with two other guys before I met my husband. I think I must be transferring some of my feelings about my past onto him. I find myself wanting to know (then not wanting to know) everything about his past. There's no way he can change his past any more than I can.
Well, that's all I've got for now. I hope I've made sense. I'm not sure that I have.
Thanks for your input.
His past lovers matter because when you're feeling rejected by him, you have nothing but time to wonder why and look for reasons. I know how this goes from personal experience.
If it weren't a comparison to his other lovers, it would be something else--your mind doesn't want to accept that there isn't some explanation, and when you seize upon something really negative, like "I'm not as sexy as his old girlfriends," you're afraid to dismiss it because dismissing something you're afraid of feels like you're fooling yourself.
But . . . the trap in that is that it's easy to start believing the worst every time simply because you think it's the most honest approach.
The biggest difference between you and those other women, if they did actually have a more sexual relationship with him than you do (and it doesn't sound like you know that for sure) is probably simply that he didn't try to sustain it for 23 years with them.
I met my wife in college, and I was a virgin. She wasn't. I made her wait a long time before we went further than petting over clothes. I was bursting as much as she was, maybe more, but I wanted to be sure. She had never been with anyone who wanted to wait for any reason. A couple of short years after we began to have sex, her drive for it tapered off. Honestly, it happened before we were married, and I asked her to promise me that if we got married as planned, she would work on it with me. She didn't, for years, but I took her promise and we got married. Looking back, I think I was stupid to try to extract such a promise and stupid to accept it, but now that we're finally moving in the right direction, I can't be sorry that I did. For years, though, I agonized over this, and I analyzed endlessly why she'd been so sexual with her other boyfriends and nothing for me. It seemed unfair (and it was, but maybe not the way I thought.) It seemed like proof positive that she found them attractive and me unattractive. I felt like I was just her paycheck/handyman/roommate, while they had been her lovers. Unable to find a man who could satisfy her in bed and still be a loving husband, she had simply chosen me over them because having a loving husband who would buy her things and do things for her was more important to her than having a satisfying lover.
I knew she loved me, in a way, but I vacillated between thinking she loved me like a brother and thinking she loved me like a cherished family pet.
None of that was true, and my attitude only made things worse. I went through all that analysis you see above and more without ever asking her whether I was on the right track. By the time we really talked through our sex-starved marriage and why it was not OK, I had years of her reasons and thoughts in my head, and most of them weren't real. They were the reasoning I'd come up with to explain to myself why my wife was punishing me by freezing me out of our marriage bed--why did she hate me so much? What had I done to be rejected and despised?
She had actually been wondering, when she bothered to think about our lack of a sex life at all, what the big deal was and why I seemed to take a perfectly normal end of a sex life between two married people so personally. It wasn't exactly a healthy attitude, sure, but it wasn't the same as "Oh, how I wish my old boyfriend Fernando were here so I could remember what it is to be ravished by a Real Man!"
(Wow . . . I hit Preview and read through this post, and it brought the tears right back to my eyes. I'm not far from those days.)
Sillyoldbear thanks so much for taking the time to reply. It sounds as if you and I have been through the same thing in a way. I will go back and read some of your posts to see the path you took towards healing your marriage.
I have to say that the sexual partner thing (his past) was something that I struggled with in the beginning of our marriage. I don't know when I finally came to terms with it, but I did. It was probably within the first year or two of our marriage. I think it's crept back in again because of the fact that I hit a breaking point with the SSM issues. Our kids are nearly grown (two in college and one a jr in HS) and I'm finally devoting more time to our marriage. I'm just not willing to settle anymore.
You are right that when one is feeling rejection you look for answers. I am a very analytical person and want to figure out why something is happening, fix it, and move on. He, on the other hand, just stuffs his feelings. To be fair, I'm sure this isn't the case all of the time, but quite often. I figure it goes hand in hand with the drinking. You know, drinking to forget. A perfect example of this is what took place last night. I really wanted to talk about the effect my AD is having on my sexual functioning; he, on the other hand, just wanted to sleep. He said I was thinking about it too much. That could be true, but I didn't admit it. Even if it was, it still doesn't solve the problem. I should know by now not to talk to him when he is tired. It gets me no where. I was in the mood to ML and he wasn't. It brought back some of those old feelings of hurt and rejection. We nearly had a fight, but talked through it and we went to bed.
It's funny that you said that you felt as if you were a room mate, etc to your wife. I told my DH something similar. I said I felt as if I was just there to cook, clean and take care of the kids (of course I enjoyed those things, but I wanted us to have a true marriage too). That I was like his mother, not his wife and lover. I also knew that he loved me, but felt it was more like the love you have for a sibling, not a wife. I guess there's some truth to some of this, I mean it was my perception of the situation, so it was true in my eyes, but from his point of view it wasn't true.
I know my attitude and constant need to analyze and talk things through drives him crazy. I know I need to back off and be happy for all of his good qualities. It is so easy to focus on the painful things that you start to overlook all of the good. It seems to me it's like a vicious cycle. I know that I can only change myself. I can't change him.
I appreciate your willingness to share your story with me. I'm sorry that it triggered sadness. But, it helps me to see that there's hope for me and my DH.
I'm going to go on posting here even if I don't get much of a response. I think it is therapeutic to get it out. I think it's the quality of responses not the quantity anyway. Plus, maybe what I write can help others.
I'm at the point now where I know I have to change my way of thinking. I need to work on making myself a better person. I need to focus less on him and our marriage and more on myself.
Thanks again for your help.
Sillyoldbear,
I read a few of your posts and a few things stood out. You mentioned your wedding night. Well, I had something similar happen. We didn't ML because my new husband was too drunk. After throwing up, he went straight to sleep. Talk about being hurt.Your wedding night is something you can never get back again.I doubt he realized just how much this hurt me. I also believe this set the stage for our married life.
You know, I know as marriage partners we need to forgive, forget and move on. This is what he wants me to do. And, this is what I need to do. But, it wasn't just a one time occurrence. It was years of hurt and rejection over and over again. That is what's so hard to move on from. This, coupled with the years of binge drinking and knowing that at times he was getting behind the wheel of a car, is so hard to put behind me. I will do it though, or I will drive myself crazy and ruin my marriage.
Something else you mentioned was the fact that you would never have an affair, but did find it hard not to look at other women. Sorry if that's not the exact wording, but close enough.
I am the same way.I have to admit, I told him that I was very lonely and that I didn't want to live out the rest of my life that way. I guess it was a threat. Not a good thing, I know.
One of our other issues, which really was part of what set this healing in motion, is my DH having female friends. Now, in my present state of mind I realize these few women are really just friends and nothing more. But, when I was in my "crazy woman" stage, I felt real threatened by them. And, honestly, I still do from time to time. These are women he talks to on the phone every so often. He doesn't go out with them or anything like that. One is widow of one of his close friends, whom he checks up on from time to time. Another one, is someone who is close friends with another friend of his who is dying from cancer. The know a lot of the same people and give each other updates. When we got married I let all of my male friends go. I guess I just thought that was what you were suppose to do. I wasn't particularly close to anyone at that time anyway, so it wasn't difficult to do. But, what I do think happened is that,over the years, I purposely shut myself off from the opposite sex. Maybe I was afraid to allow myself to get too close for fear of crossing a line? I don't know. I found myself being angry and jealous that he had these friends and I didn't. I think it's easy to let your mind wander when you are already feeling so inadequate.
Well, that's enough of my ramblings for now. Thanks for listening and helping.
The more you read here, the more you'll realize that everyone's marriage is different, but many of the themes of an SSM get repeated over and over. Other people will vent about their own marriages, and it seems like they're just venting, but as you've found, it's a good idea to read those posts because you'll find that you're not alone.
I did say I would never leave and never have an affair, but I did fantasize about other women. It wasn't "looking." "Looking" is more like what I do now--an appreciative glance, a thought or two, and on with my day. When I felt like my wife didn't love me anymore, the fantasies were elaborate.
And when it comes to leaving . . . this wouldn't be necessary for everyone, but the only thing that finally snapped my wife's head around and made her realize that our sexual problems were serious for me was when I told her that I didn't want to leave, but if nothing changed, I would. She was a child of divorce and had always been paranoid that I would leave soon; her mother doesn't commit to jobs, homes, or husbands for long, and she figured that's the way marriage goes--try to hold on as long as you can and then go be sad when it breaks up. My parents have been together nearly 40 years now and look happy to me, so that was my ideal--you choose a good woman and you do whatever it takes to make it work. But giving up on myself and accepting that what I want doesn't matter wasn't making it work. She knew I had always said I would never leave no matter what, and when I told her that had changed, she was devastated, but she decided to try to fix things with me.
One thing to watch out for is the "covert contract." For a husband, this happens when you clean the house, cook dinner and put the kids to bed, and she still won't make love with you. You feel like you did your part of the bargain, and she welshed . . . only there was no bargain. She didn't agree to trade sex for household chores!
For you, I wonder if you had a contract in your mind, where you expected something in return for letting all your friends go. Keep in mind that he didn't know about that deal, so he can't be expected to keep his side of it.
Finally, yes, I'm sure he's right that you're overthinking things. That's almost unavoidable because you are the only one thinking about it at all as far as you know. I did and do the same. Some of it is probably due to an analytical personality. I know I analyze everything. But when you're left to your own thoughts, and your spouse won't talk to you about what's going on in your marriage, it's hard not to turn your thoughts in on yourself. Eventually you end up analyzing whether you should be analyzing your analysis of your tendency to analyze things too much . . . . it never ends.
In my case, my wife rarely had to tell me she didn't want to talk about it over the years. She simply burst into tears every time I brought it up. I couldn't stand to watch her cry, so I'd drop it and comfort her. That was a BIG mistake. It wasn't until I was angry enough to bull right through her tears and insist that she listen to me that we started to make any progress at all. But by that time I was walking around in a fog of anger. Everything she did was wrong and I hated her, myself, and my marriage.
I'm not really someone who should be giving advice, but I'll give you this much: it all starts with being honest and insisting that what you want matters. You are not crazy. You are not abnormal. You are not being pushy. You can't have everything you want every moment, but you also can't be told that what you want isn't important. Talk to him and stick with it. Don't accept a dismissal. If you can avoid being angry and mean, you'll be better off, but you do have to be forceful.
Oh, one more piece of advice: as more of the "old pros" weigh in, they're going to be talking about things you can do differently to fix things. That means they're going to be talking about things you're doing wrong (and if you try to fix things, you're going to do a lot of things wrong, because you're hurt and angry.) It's not personal. They're not mad at you, and they aren't judging you. But you ARE going to feel defensive sometimes, and if you're like me, you'll spend a lot of time explaining why you did what you did. And nobody here is perfect; they DO have their own biases, and their advice sometimes will be colored by those. But they're all trying to help you, and many of them have been in your shoes almost exactly.
OK, one more thing: analysis can be as bad when things are right as it is when things are wrong. I still have a hard time not saying something like, "so, what happened tonight?" when she initiates lovemaking. It makes me want to know what went right. What did I do? What was different tonight? I just want to do it all again!
But it drove her crazy. She wanted me to "just be happy that it happened." Partly, that's the blase attitude of someone who still doesn't understand that the fact that she just initiated lovemaking is a Big Deal. But it also highlighted a difference in the way we thought. She thought sex should "just happen." And since it wasn't spontaneously "just happening" between us, that meant that it was meant to be over and we should move on to other things. I saw it very differently, of course.
One difference that's really interesting to me is your reaction to anti-depressants. Those meds are a recurring element here, but usually they're mentioned because they exacerbated someone's low-desire condition. That was certainly the case with my wife. I can imagine your husband's reaction in his mind, though: "You mean I don't want to have sex, and that's a problem, but now you don't want to have sex either, and that's still a problem? If neither of us wants to do it, what's the problem?!?"
Have you talked to him about sexual issues lately? What's his take?
Hello, it's been a while since I've been here. I had surgery and haven't been doing do well. I did want to respond to your reply as I appreciate you taking the time to answer me. I find I am also learning a lot by hearing other's experiences.
I have learned that I am not alone. I think it is especially difficult for the HD women because so much of what we hear is how it's the men who always want it. I do think that that is changing though and more people are willing to talk about it openly.
I have to say that, at some point, I did feel as if my husband didn't love me. I think deep down I knew that he did, but I wasn't feeling it on the surface. Maybe I said this before, but I think I purposely didn't allow myself to associate with other men because I was afraid of developing feelings for them. I realize now that it is my fault for pushing my male friends away. Realistically, it would have been harder for me to make new male friends as I was a stay at home mom for many years.
It looks like I had the same talk with my DH as you had with your DW. I told him I didn't want to leave that I loved him, but that we needed to work together to fix our problems, or I would. That I didn't want to live this way the rest of my life. I don't know that I would have followed through with it though. Being disabled makes things a bit more complicated. I believe my husband, unlike your wife, believed I would stay with him no matter what. I think that's why our talk really made him think and start to make some changes.
I see what you are saying about the "covert contract". I agree with you too. I think I was so wrapped up in him, then our children started coming within two years of our marriage, that I did let my male friends go. I only had a few, and I wasn't very close to them, so it was easy to do. It is something I regret now.
I think I pushed things so far down inside...the anger, the hurt, etc that I finally erupted. We'd have these talks where he told me he didn't know what was wrong (we now know it was low T), that he loved me and that there was no one else. Yet,15 or more years went by before he got help. Then, my over thinking kicked in and I would wonder was it me? What could I do differently?
You made a good point about not being angry and mean. Thank God I got on the AD. I did not like the way I was. We can now talk without me yelling. My dh does still get a bit defensive, but I find that if I preface our talk with something along the lines of "I know I'm probably making a big deal of this, but...." It puts the focus on me and my feelings not him. He, then, is less defensive and is more willing to talk.
Thanks on the "heads up" about the "old pros". I can be a bit sensitive, but I have to say that I am one to admit when I've done something wrong. I'm willing to make changes, although I know they aren't always easy.
Thanks again for your help. I'll try and respond to your other post in a bit.
I know what you mean about the over analyzing when things are going well. In the back of my mind, I wonder "is he doing this because he feels guilty about something?" "Is he doing this because enough time has gone by and he feel as if it's his duty?"
I've tried to explain to my DH that it's important that we schedule time to ML. Of course, spontaneity is great. But, I think when someone has LD, they tend to believe they need to be really turned on and it will just happen (like in the movies). I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here. I once read that some people need to start ML before they get turned on. That if they wait until they are turned on it might never, or rarely happen.
I guess I need to explain a bit more, my problem with the AD isn't low desire it's that it takes me a very long time to orgasm. It has decreased my desire, but honestly, we are more evenly matched now. One thing that has always helped us is our sense of humor. We joke about our sexual dysfunctions now.
I haven't talked with him much about our problems because he was sick for a few weeks, then I had surgery. I have asked him if he feels as if the testosterone is helping and he says he thinks so. I don't quite know what to think about that. He does initiate more. In fact, I have not initiated in several months. I'm letting him take the lead. That's easier to do now that my desire is a bit lower. I'm going to try and have a talk with him in the next week or so.
I have found that my thoughts (really a bit of OCD) about his past have nearly stopped. When they come up, I'm able to let them go. My therapist has really helped me with this.
I know all of this is going to take some time. But, I am happy with our progress.
Well, I better go...the medication is taking affect...I'm getting very sleepy.
Thanks again for your help.
So . . . . are you still out there? Any news, good or bad?
lost & confused, I know I'm chiming in late, but you sound a lot like me. (And BTW, I hope you're making a good recovery from your surgery and are feeling better.) As SillyOldBear said:
"....many of the themes of an SSM get repeated over and over. Other people will vent about their own marriages, and it seems like they're just venting, but as you've found, it's a good idea to read those posts because you'll find that you're not alone."
What I've done here, is copy and paste parts of other posts on this thread that I can relate to, and add my own comments.
lost & confused:
"I just remember him rarely approaching me, and when I approached him, at times (a lot of times) he would reject me."
Yes! The last time my H approached me for sex, and I felt like he really wanted it, was almost 3 months ago. He has approached me about 3 times since then but I've gotten the feeling he was only doing it to please me. I shouldn't complain (and I don't, to him - out loud, to him, I'll take what I can get) - but I feel kind of hurt when it seems like he's just trying to appease me. That hurts as much as when I approach him and he turns me down. I miss being pursued and desired. I've been lucky in the past - I've had men after me, had men hot for me, had men do downright crazy things out of lust for me. Maybe I got spoiled. Maybe that's why it's so hard for me now to be in this relationship with a LD man.
And the thing is, he wasn't always like this. Up until about 2 years ago, he was much more enthusiastic and pursued me and we had good sex on a frequent basis.
In my case, part of what happened is that I began work at a very demanding job. He's been upfront with me about his resentment of this - when I work late in the evenings, he resents doing a lot of the evening chores, and then I come home and want to have fun (i.e., be sexual.)
But it's good that he's told me this, at least he's given me something to work with. He also told me that he went to the doctor last week to have his testosterone levels checked, but has not gotten the results yet. (Last time we tried to ML, it was unsuccessful, and right afterwards, he said he might go to the doctor. I encouraged this [subtly, I hope].) So if he really did go to the doctor, and if he tells me the result, that will be more information to work with.
I like my job and do not especially want to change jobs, but if that's what it takes, I will look for something else. I cannot afford to quit working altogether. We need the money, and I need the health insurance. And frankly, I know when I do leave this job that I like, I'll feel resentment towards him. (He says, "You don't have to change jobs," but I'm not sure what else I can do. He won't change. The job won't change. I'm stuck in the middle. Either way I lose something - either the man I love, or the job I like. I've got two bad choices here.)
"For the most part, our marriage has been good. We have a lot of fun together (both have a crazy sense of humor) and share a lot of the same values."
Yes, this. This is why we're still together. We're both kind of quirky and intellectual and interested in weird things. We'd both have trouble finding another partner who would be so perfect on a mental level.
DanceQueen:
"I think that in general, people who are HD and feel that they are missing out on sex, are actually missing out on intimacy. As you probably know, physical intimacy is only one type of intimacy. But the other types of intimacy can be much more meaningful than the physical, so if they are missing it can be more painful than if the physical is missing."
Yes, this is true of me. I remember when DH and I were living in different cities and spending only weekends together, we spent the WHOLE weekend together. We did domestic stuff in our own separate apartments during the week, and did fun stuff together all weekend long. Now a lot of weekends, we just do chores and errands and sometimes don't spend much time together. And like many men, he's addicted to TV. I feel like I can't compete with the TV.
SillyOldBear:
"I went through all that analysis you see above and more without ever asking her whether I was on the right track. By the time we really talked through our sex-starved marriage and why it was not OK, I had years of her reasons and thoughts in my head, and most of them weren't real. They were the reasoning I'd come up with to explain to myself why my wife was punishing me by freezing me out of our marriage bed--why did she hate me so much? What had I done to be rejected and despised?
She had actually been wondering, when she bothered to think about our lack of a sex life at all, what the big deal was and why I seemed to take a perfectly normal end of a sex life between two married people so personally."
Yes, I think this sounds like me. I get over-analytical and I know I've been coming up with some wrong reasons for his LD. I've thought it was my weight (it's not - he says not, and I believe him; plus I've been losing weight steadily since July). I've wondered if he had another woman. (He says he doesn't and I believe him. If he's lying, then he deserves an Oscar.) I've thought maybe our relationship was just fizzling out, maybe he
was falling out of love with me and I might get dumped soon. (He keeps saying he loves me, I'll never lose him, this is a permanent relationship, this is forever, etc. If he was planning to dump me, why on earth would he make it harder for himself by saying these things?)
No - he and I have talked about it, and it's my job that he doesn't like. And quite frankly, I think this sucks. This is the only job I've ever had that I actually like.
It isn't perfect; and frankly I'd be happier if I didn't have such a heavy workload. But yanno, we're in a recession right now; I have good benefits, and it's going to be hard to find something else with as good benefits. I'll look for another job, but 1) it's not going to be easy or quick to find one and 2) to be honest, I'm kind of pissed off and resentful about having to.
Lost & confused:
"You are right that when one is feeling rejection you look for answers. I am a very analytical person and want to figure out why something is happening, fix it, and move on.
He, on the other hand, just stuffs his feelings....He said I was thinking about it too much. That could be true, but I didn't admit it. Even if it was, it still doesn't solve the problem. I should know by now not to talk to him when he is tired. It gets me no where. I was in the mood to ML and he wasn't. It brought back some of those old feelings of hurt and rejection."
Again, I'm very analytical and he isn't as analytical as I am, so I'm in a similar situation, l & c. I want to try and solve the problem, and I do that by talking it out, but he might be right - I might think TOO much. And I know there's a real possibility of wearing him out by incessant out-loud analyzing, so I try to keep a lid on it.
"I have to admit, I told him that I was very lonely and that I didn't want to live out the rest of my life that way. I guess it was a threat. Not a good thing, I know."
I haven't outright said this to my DH, but I did once tell him when a good-looking man at work told ME that I looked good. I'm almost 46, but I look very damn good for my age (even if I do say so myself) and my work takes me to a courthouse frequently, where there are attractive, intelligent men all dressed up in suits....I'm a healthy straight female, I notice men, and I enjoy it when they notice me. I've been very tempted by some
attractive attorneys.
It really feels awful to wonder if my sex life is over forever at the age of 46. I was hoping this might not happen for another 20 years or so. When my DH doesn't approach me for sex and turns me down when I approach him, I feel rejected and wonder what's wrong with me. I wonder if a man will ever be hot for me again. Then I go to court and get some admiring glances, and I feel better about myself and my attractiveness. But I don't want to cheat on my DH. I wish I could get that validation as an attractive woman from him, but I get so little from him that I'm really hungry for it, and I grab the crumbs I get in these admiring glances from attorneys at the courthouse.
SillyOldBear:
"I did fantasize about other women....When I felt like my wife didn't love me anymore, the fantasies were elaborate."
Yes, I find I'm doing this, too. I can have some very involved fantasies!
"....it all starts with being honest and insisting that what you want matters. You are not crazy. You are not abnormal. You are not being pushy. You can't have everything you want every moment, but you also can't be told that what you want isn't important."
Please keep telling us this! In fact, I should print that sentence out and tape it to my mirror or something.
Honestly, regarding the fantasies . . . they aren't as extensive as they were, but I still notice other women and do some daydreaming. And I have read that this is one of those things that really is markedly different for women and men in almost all cases--in fact, that when a woman and a man both say they fantasize, they're almost not talking about the same thing.
I remember a fairly in-depth interview with a transsexual who went from female to male--it aired on NPR a year or two ago. He described being attracted to women as a woman, but he said that nothing prepared him for the change in his sexuality when he took the male hormones before and after his surgery. He said that if, for example, he noticed a pretty girl on the train before, when he was a woman in every physical/chemical way, he would note her, wonder about her name and where she was from, maybe give her another look or two, and that would be it.
But after he started the male hormones, he said, the whole encounter would be different. As a man, if he noticed a pretty girl on the train, he would be pulled out of the moment and almost involuntarily forced into an elaborate and "truly pornographic" fantasy about her. I do think that part of the reason it hit him so hard--he described it as frightening--was that he hadn't developed his response to these fantasies since puberty the way men born as men do. But I never forgot his utter shock at the experience of a simple fantasy about a girl he would have been just as attracted to when he was a woman. It suggested that women have no idea how men experience sex or arousal.
I realize everybody and his brother says this already, but that drove it home for me.
I think the thing that doesn't get mentioned here, that is either the best-kept secret or the unique thing about my marriage, is how utterly normal and unremarkable my wife thought the end of sex between us was. She looked at it as the Circle of Life. The sexual relationship is born when you're dating, dwindles upon marriage, and dies completely a couple of years in. Then you have sex when the spirit moves you, and if it never does, then you do something else instead. Perfectly normal, inevitable, and certainly nothing to get worked up about.
The HD half of the relationship has a very hard time grasping this. Even if their other half openly states that everyone's marriage inevitably ends up sex-free, they tend to think there's some hidden truth that's being covered up by this implausible lie.
SillyOldBear:
"I think the thing that doesn't get mentioned here, that is either the best-kept secret or the unique thing about my marriage, is how utterly normal and unremarkable my wife thought the end of sex between us was. She looked at it as the Circle of Life. The sexual relationship is born when you're dating, dwindles upon marriage, and dies completely a couple of years in. Then you have sex when the spirit moves you, and if it never does, then you do something else instead. Perfectly normal, inevitable, and certainly nothing to get worked up about.
The HD half of the relationship has a very hard time grasping this. Even if their other half openly states that everyone's marriage inevitably ends up sex-free, they tend to think there's some hidden truth that's being covered up by this implausible lie."
Yes. DH says he loves me, says he wants us to be together forever. But I just can't get my mind around the concept of a lifelong relationship with no sex! I've learned that men are NOT perpetually horny, which is what I used to think. But why on earth would a man want to stay "forever" in a relationship with no sex? And how can you love someone and not want to have sex with them? I just don't get that at all....
I don't get it, either. I never did come to understand how it works. But you have to come to a sincere, in-your-gut realization that your spouse is capable of believing it, at least for now, even if you can never really understand how they could do it.
Because if that's the way he's thinking, and you're still thinking of him as a man who wants sex in the marriage, you can't help but go back to trying to figure out how you're inadequate. Even as you think it, you will sometimes think to yourself that you're not making any sense, but you'll still think the same things.
The other thing to remember is that it's just as hard for him to understand why sex is so important to you as it is for you to understand how he can go without it. His way of thinking seems to him the natural and maybe only way to think . . . just as yours seems to you (well, and me too.) In my marriage, I was trying to figure out why my wife would pretend that her sex drive was completely gone . . . and all I could come up with was that I wasn't attractive enough for her, and maybe I never had been--maybe she had lost her passion for me, or maybe she'd been faking it in the early days, knowing that she didn't want a sexual marriage but knowing that most men wouldn't accept that.
At the same time, she was either avoiding thinking about our sex life because she doesn't enjoy confusion and guilt, or on the rare occasions when she thought about it, she was wondering why I would pretend that sex was this huge issue--what was I really upset about? Was it that she wasn't enough for me and I wanted out? Was it just that I thought I'd made a mistake marrying her? She didn't know, but she knew no one would really be so furious over a simple physical release like getting laid.
We didn't understand each other, and we tried to read each others' minds.
So . . . . are you still out there? Any news, good or bad?
I'm still here. I think things are still moving in the right direction. Did you read my two new posts (right before yours)? They sort of answer some of the questions you had.
OK, so DH went back to the doctor and he is going to continue with the Testosterone for now. I'm guessing it's because his was so low, plus the fact that he can tell a difference. The doctor said there is no way of knowing if he will need to be on it long term until he starts to go off of it. I asked him again the other day if he could tell a difference and he said yes. This time he seemed more sure. I know there are other factors that have played into his low desire...stressful job, money problems (although those are easing), the loss of several good friends (with another one terminally ill), etc. This is where we are different. When I'm stressed I want more sex, he is the opposite. I find it to be a great stress reliever, among other things.
He does initiate, usually at least twice a week. Before, I probably wouldn't have been satisfied with that, but the AD, as I said before, has dampened my desire somewhat. The other night we just laid next to each other for over an hour, just holding each other, and touching each other. It was amazing.
I think I'm at the point where I need to work on myself more. I've lost about 15 pounds, but have been stalled at my current weight for over a month. I'd like to lose about 15 more. I'm trying to keep myself busy and not constantly analyze and talk to him death. I'm trying to forget about the past, while learing from it. I'm not sure if that makes sense.
I still feel as if I'm needing more from him. I asked him if he would bring me flowers. He said he would. But, I haven't seen any yet. I don't want to pressure him to be something he isn't, yet I want to have my needs and wants met.
How do you find that middle ground???? Overall, I am happier. Much happier than I was even a month ago. I do think the AD has reached a new level (if that's possible). It seemed to slowly work it's way into my system; and I'd see small changes in my thinking every few weeks.
How are things going with you SillyOldBear? I hope you are still seeing improvements in your marriage. Thanks for showing interest in my situation and for offering help.
[quote=Margali]
Yes! The last time my H approached me for sex, and I felt like he really wanted it, was almost 3 months ago. He has approached me about 3 times since then but I've gotten the feeling he was only doing it to please me. I shouldn't complain (and I don't, to him - out loud, to him, I'll take what I can get) - but I feel kind of hurt when it seems like he's just trying to appease me. That hurts as much as when I approach him and he turns me down. I miss being pursued and desired. I've been lucky in the past - I've had men after me, had men hot for me, had men do downright crazy things out of lust for me. Maybe I got spoiled. Maybe that's why it's so hard for me now to be in this relationship with a LD man.
[b] Thank you so much for your input. I was so excited when I read your post as it does seem like we have a lot in common. I can really relate to the appeasal sex. It's like they're saying, "Well, I guess I have to do this, so let's just get it over with." Like you, I have had men desire me in the past. My first true love, my high school boyfriend (we were together six years!), was very passionate. He would tell me how hot I looked, how he thought about me, etc. Yes, we were young, but I don't care how old you are a woman still wants to feel wanted.[/b]
But it's good that he's told me this, at least he's given me something to work with. He also told me that he went to the doctor last week to have his testosterone levels checked, but has not gotten the results yet. (Last time we tried to ML, it was unsuccessful, and right afterwards, he said he might go to the doctor. I encouraged this [subtly, I hope].) So if he really did go to the doctor, and if he tells me the result, that will be more information to work with.
[b] This sounds hopeful! I think my DH was relieved when his came back so low. He had a reason for his LD. Something he could blame it on. Even though or LM was infrequent, it was always, always good. That's what I just never understood. In the past six months or so, he started having problems with maintaining an erection. I'm guessing that's what you are referring to when you say you were unsuccessful? Now that my DH is on the T, he doesn't have that problem. [/b]
I like my job and do not especially want to change jobs, but if that's what it takes, I will look for something else. I cannot afford to quit working altogether. We need the money, and I need the health insurance. And frankly, I know when I do leave this job that I like, I'll feel resentment towards him. (He says, "You don't have to change jobs," but I'm not sure what else I can do. He won't change. The job won't change. I'm stuck in the middle. Either way I lose something - either the man I love, or the job I like. I've got two bad choices here.)
[b] I think it would be a terrible spot to be in, having to choose between your dream job and your DH. Hopefully, you two can work out a compromise.[/b]
Yes, this. This is why we're still together. We're both kind of quirky and intellectual and interested in weird things. We'd both have trouble finding another partner who would be so perfect on a mental level.
[b] This is what kept me going all of those years. Knowing that we were so well matched in nearly every other way. And, knowing that anyone else would come with their own set of problems.[/b]
I'm about the same age as you (I'm 47), and like you, I feel as if I'm too young to have my sex life over! I crave attention from men. If a man looks at me a certain way, it does make me feel good, but I want that from him, not anyone else. He is not a jealous person at all. I once told him that a man could come over to our table and start kissing me and he'd just sit there. I mean seriously. I think some of this just comes from the fact that he takes me for granted. Some of that is good I know. But no one should expect to go through a marriage living like siblings. That is how I felt for so long.
Thanks for your input. I hope I have totally messed this up...I tried to put my reply in bold. If it doesn't work, I'm sure you'll figure it out.
Yes. DH says he loves me, says he wants us to be together forever. But I just can't get my mind around the concept of a lifelong relationship with no sex! I've learned that men are NOT perpetually horny, which is what I used to think. But why on earth would a man want to stay "forever" in a relationship with no sex? And how can you love someone and not want to have sex with them? I just don't get that at all....
Something worth noting here. I think LD men have a whole different set of problems than the LD women. Men know they are supposed to be thinking about sex all of the time. I'm sure they probably wonder what is wrong with them. Then, you have the part of them that wont go be checked out. You know how a lot of men are about going to dr's (especially when they have to talk about their men parts). I think it takes an ultimatim from their partner before they will take action. As a HD partner, by not acting we are in essence saying we are OK with things. I did a lot of pleading, pouting, an eventually started yelling before I finally said you have to get help.
I also think that some men do just naturally have a LD. And that it might not be a physical problem. But, when you pair them up with a HD woman, then you have a problem. In the past, I had a very high drive. In fact, it made me uncomfortable. I am much happier now that my desire is a bit lower. I'm sure the pressure has been taken off my DH some.
I think the LD spouse doesn't think the way the HD spouse does. Why would they want to leave the marriage? They are getting their needs met. I still don't get the why they wouldn't want to ML to someone they love. I have to believe that it's not just one thing. It's a whole lot of things when added up kill the desire. Stress, hormones, etc.
We will get through this. Just taking the first steps is a big leap. Hang in there.
I'm feeling pretty sad today. We just had 5 days in a row w/ no work, and didn't get anywhere near ML.
We did get in bed last night (undressed) and just cuddle for a while. I told him it didn't matter if things "happened" or not - and I meant it (although of course I *hoped* something would happen.) I told him, "no pressure, no expectations" - I'm trying to let go of the whole thing, back off, not be so clingy. But it's so hard. I want to grab him and rub myself against him and do things to him until he can't stand it and we end up ML. But I know that's a bad idea - what if, no matter what I do, he just doesn't get aroused? I don't do this, because I don't think I can take much more rejection.
It really sucks, too, to be a female in this culture where we're supposed to let the man lead, let it be his idea, etc. I feel like, it's okay for them to say what they want openly and pursue women, but we women, we could love somebody and want him to the point where it's killing us, and we STILL have to be quiet and demure and wait for him to make the first move. If we do anything else, we're "clingy" and "demanding" and "too obvious", etc. Have you noticed how all the relationship books in bookstores are addressed to women? It's "Women Who Love Too Much." There is no counter-book called "Men Who Don't Love Enough."
I'm trying to get to a point where I can let go....I'm re-reading some of the books I have about recovery and codependency. In the past, I've been one of those people who's afraid if I don't take matters into my own hands and force the issue, nothing will ever happen. Trying to "let go"....trying to back off from him, not rub up against him, not behave amorously, pretend I don't care if he wants me or not - this is almost impossible. I'm just not good at pretending and hiding my feelings.
I wish I could know for sure if we're ever going to be happy together again. I wish I could know for sure if my love and sex life really is over. If so, I could go through the pain - grieve, mourn, etc. - and then just get ready to be an old lady. Not knowing what's going to happen is just about killing me.
Lost, I'm SO glad you turned up here! I need another woman like me to talk to. Part of the problem is that I haven't been able to talk to anybody about this.
You sound a lot like me, so I'm going to say some things to you that other people said to me when I sounded that way.
First, although it isn't going to make you feel a lot better, you have to understand that you can't completely take away pressure and expectations. The fact that you have to tell him there are no expectations tells him that there are. He knows what you want (I'm assuming there--but he does know what you want, right?) and he knows that you're hoping it will happen. The pressure stays on him. As long as the couple is trying to pass as "normal" and pretend there's no problem, most of the pressure and heartache falls on the HD partner. But once you try to do something about it, the LD partner feels most of it shift onto his shoulders. I used to get so frustrated (well, I guess I still do) with trying to take pressure off my wife. It's like asking someone not to think of a rhinoceros. You're picturing a rhinoceros right now, aren't you?
That's the bad news. The good news is that the longer you stick with it, the more the pressure will ease for him. In the early stages the LD partner feels like he's trapped and being beaten up--like he's been given an ultimatum, and he's got to perform where he failed for years, or his marriage will end. It's not easy for them, but it's hard for us to see it at the time or sympathize much because we're angry and scared, too. As that eases, you'll begin to see more of this.
The only ways I found past this dilemma were time and focus on myself. Putting in the time sounds simple, but in practice it's hard to do, because you worry that you're wasting time on one more idea that won't work. This place is important for reinforcing what you're doing. The truth is I don't know to this day whether the ideas in the SSM book are all that magical, or whether what really mattered was that I picked an approach and stuck to it because I had a community here to help me and listen to my rantings. But by all means, come here and write about what's happening and what you're feeling, even if you think no one is reading it that day. Just do it anyway.
The other thing that's important is to focus on yourself. Push yourself to do the "Get a Life" thing--go back to doing some things just because you enjoy them, especially things you've given up over the years. Do things to make yourself happy without your husband. Push the things you like about yourself, and work on the things you don't. The ideal is to get to a point where you're happy with your life and you want to share that happiness with him, not look to him to make you happy. You're probably tired of hearing that by now--I know I was--but it's true. You have to start treating him as one part of your life. A big part, but just one part, not the one who decides whether you're happy or miserable. It's hard to understand because we're all bombarded every day with the message that love isn't real if you aren't gasping with desperate obsession over your idol. We're taught that real love just happens, that some force outside you declares that You Will Be In Love With This Person, and then it is so. We're taught that you couldn't possibly end it if you wanted to . . . . but that's not true.
I don't want to give you advice on taking the lead vs. letting him take the lead. If he needs to be in the lead and you can handle that, then maybe that's what you should do. I will tell you what my own experience has been, though. I've been working for a couple of years now on taking the lead in my marriage, trying to "man up." I was thinking about this just a couple of days ago, actually. I really was controlled by my wife and I really did need to put the brakes on and take some of my life back. But at the same time, it's exhausting having to be constantly asserting your authority in a relationship. I want to get to a balance of give and take that makes sense for us. I think maybe that's what you're looking for, too. But a sensible balance in anything is always the hardest state to maintain.
(Two paragraphs of angry ranting about an upcoming discussion of a decision I've made have been deleted here--there's no point in putting them in your thread. Still don't have that balance figured out yet.)
It really sucks, too, to be a female in this culture where we're supposed to let the man lead, let it be his idea, etc. I feel like, it's okay for them to say what they want openly and pursue women, but we women, we could love somebody and want him to the point where it's killing us, and we STILL have to be quiet and demure and wait for him to make the first move.
That's an incorrect stereotype. Maybe true for some men, but not all! Just to add my vote here, I'm an HD male and I would love a woman who takes the intiative. She could grab me anytime, anywhere, unannounced. Just don't make it too obvious in public, that's all I ask! Otherwise, no exceptions. Wake me up at 4 am if you need it!
Yeah, me too, but . . . she's not dealing with an HD man, and that's the real issue. She can't just grab him, and if she woke him up at 4:00 a.m. he'd just be a grumpy guy with bad breath. No sexy times.
When you're in an SSM, you try to figure out why all women or all men are such-and-such, but of course they're not. And you look around at all the *other* men, or women, who don't seem to be anything like yours, and you wonder why. Of course, you have to remember that you're seeing the face those people put on in public, not the way they really are at home. You see your husband or wife intimately with their guards down. It's not the same.
In my case, I had something of an ally at my wife's place of work. She has a coworker who's her best friend. Technically, my wife is her superior, but they work closely and her friend is old enough to be her mother, so they're on pretty even footing. While we've been trying to sort out why my wife wanted no sex and I wanted it all the time, her friend was dealing with the same thing from the other direction. Her husband had lost interest among work, depression, anti-depressant side effects, and all the rest. Early in our process, when I didn't realize my wife was telling her Friend everything about our private life, her Friend was trying to warn her that she would push me away until we had a totally sexless, loveless marriage, and then when her libido came back at her Friend's age she'd reach for me and I wouldn't be there. It didn't have much impact at the time.
As they shared more, though, my wife began to realize that there were many parallels in our situation. I think it helped me in the end that she heard my side of the story twice, once from her husband, but then again from her Friend who she knew was not obsessive or unreasonable, and whose heart was breaking over being treated the same way she'd been treating me. It may have helped her to understand that it wasn't just that I was some pervert, or that all men are perverts, but that there are people, even women, who can't be happy in their marriage if their partner is withholding sex.
Thanks for coming back and answering me, Silly.
Like I said, I started re-reading some of my old recovery and addiction/codependency books. If you're ever trying to "let go" - of anything - these are the best resource.
And it really is helping. I've been in a 12-Step program before, and maybe finding some meetings again would help. (When I was in program before, I lived in a place where there were a lot of meetings. Since then, I've moved to a place where there aren't many. But never fear - there are online meetings.)
I'm trying to look at things a little differently. I don't have to be desperate. He says he loves me and wants us together forever; and even though he still hugs and kisses me and gives me loving looks, I'm just not sure I believe him any more.
How on earth could a man love a woman, and want to keep the relationship, if they almost never have sex? To me, that's not love. At least, not romantic/sexual/mate love. If it's love without sex, then it's friend love or family love.
And if he dumps me, I could cope. As it stands right now, it would break my heart and it would be tough on me financially. But I wouldn't be out on the street. The papers around here are full of people looking for roommates. I could make it if I really had to.
Without him in my life, I'd hurt horribly for a while and be lonely. But there are things I could do on my own that I can't do w/ him around: eat whenever I want, sleep whenever I want, clean house when *I* think the house needs it (not when he's acting like he thinks it needs to be done)....go out when I want to, instead of staying in because he wants to stay in. Go to events and join groups in the area where I live. Maybe even move someplace I would like better. My workaholism would no longer be a problem. With more privacy, I could even satisfy my own needs with masturbation whenever I want to...not have to wait until he's in the shower or out.
I'm not going to dump him, but I'm beginning to see that if he did dump me, it wouldn't be all bad.
It might not even necessarily mean the end of my sex/love life with men. True, I'm 45, but I look good for my age, and I've seen men look at me recently. I guess it would be possible that somebody else might want me.
And I'm trying (in the spirit of 12-Step programs) to believe that even if DH doesn't love me, maybe God does. God and I have a rocky history. But Step 2 says, "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." I'm trying to work the steps again, and Step 2 is a good one for me right now.
If I have to get over DH, I guess I can.
How on earth could a man love a woman, and want to keep the relationship, if they almost never have sex? To me, that's not love. At least, not romantic/sexual/mate love. If it's love without sex, then it's friend love or family love.
I won't lie to you, I don't understand this either. Not deep down where it really counts, though I know more of the fact and theory of love languages and all the rest. And I also can't tell you that your husband really loves you without expressing it sexually where it would mean most to you. I don't actually know that about him, and if you're like me, that kind of positive cheerleading only reinforces your doubts when it comes from someone who can't know whether it's true or not.
What I can tell you, and hope you'll believe it because this I do know, is that I said exactly the same things about my wife. I said very similar words *to* my wife--I told her that if we weren't lovers, we were the same as siblings or roommates. That I loved my mother and my sister deeply and would step in front of a truck to save either of them, but I wanted my relationship with her to be different from my relationship with them. I didn't need another sister or a mother.
She convinced me, by trying to work out our sexual issues, our control issues, her depression . . . well, a lot of things . . . that she does love me. And eventually we began to make our sex life work again. It's not perfect, but it's nothing like it was. I feel loved, and I realize that she loved me all along. She just didn't understand what we were doing to each other, and honestly, neither did I.
Love and sex are not separate for me, and I don't understand how they can be for her, but I know they were. I hope that gives you hope for you and your husband. Again, I won't presume to tell you what your husband is thinking, but I'm convinced that there ARE people for whom sex doesn't feel related to love in any real way.
Well, yesterday, I was depressed all day long. I didn't pester him, just did my own thing. That's another thing I'm trying to see if it helps - I'm backing off from him. For awhile there, I was hugging, kissing, etc. (w/ sexual overtones), saying "I love you" and similar things, etc.
A few days ago, when I decided to try letting go, I stopped all that. If he initiates, then I hug/kiss/say "I love you" back - but he has to start it. If having me pestering him with affection is so terrible, then I won't make him put up with it any more. If he wants it, he can come and get it.
Maybe it's just another reminder of some things I thought I had learned years ago:
1) Women don't get to pick the men they like; men get to do the choosing. We just have to hope the ones who choose us, are attractive to us too.
2) Any forward progress in a relationship has to be the man's idea, or it won't work.
Horrible? Yes. Sexist? Outrageously so. Do I hate it? With all my heart. But it seems to be the ugly truth about male-female relationships. Every time I've been the pursuer, I've gotten hurt.
In this relationship, *he* was the first one to suggest we stop dating others. *He* was the one to suggest moving in together. He was the first one to suggest things, and it was working beautifully, until we started having this sex problem about 2 years ago. Then when it seemed I wanted sex more than he did, I guess I forgot that, and began pursuing him more. Maybe that was a mistake.
So, anyway, back to yesterday. I didn't pester him, but he could tell I was depressed. At first, he thought it was because I wanted to see the movie "The Road" and he didn't. We talked about that, and I told him that's not why I'm so depressed. FFS! I've missed movies before and it was NOT the end of the world. It would take a lot more than that to put me in a really bad blue mood.
But, I didn't tell him yet again what I AM depressed about. If he doesn't know by now, he hasn't listened when I've tried to tell him for the past 2 years. I'm depressed bcs we haven't had sex since Oct. 29, and I'm mourning the end of my sex life.
I think he *does* love me, in that way that LD people can somehow love their mate w/o wanting sex. I hear what you're saying about that, Silly. It makes me feel like an alien from another planet, but I believe you when you say there are people like that. And I'm beginning to believe DH might be one of them.
However, I'm not. Never getting to have sex again (or getting it very rarely) is a major loss for me. And I'm going to mourn that loss and grieve it. If it means I act depressed sometimes, so be it.
But yesterday, when I was depressed and not hiding it, DH was very loving and sweet with me. Hugs and kisses and kind words, loving glances, etc. And when he gives me that, I respond in kind. I've just stopped initiating for now.
I did get The Book (SSM), and am trying the bit about being good to myself. I'm sticking w/ my weight loss program, but the fact that I'm doing it for me (health reasons) as well as for attractiveness reasons, helps me stay motivated to keep losing the weight. Actually, I'm close to my goal weight now. Only 15 pounds left to go! I'm going to yoga class, and reconnecting with old friends via Facebook. Soaking in the tub, reading a good book, cuddling with our cats, all those things are ways I can take care of myself.
Last week, I was home from work on time for 3 days out of 5. So I'm doing better about that. If I can keep that up, we'll see if DH notices (and ever wants to do anything other than sit in front of the TV every evening.)
Not to hawk books, but have you seen that there's a book specifically for "The Sex-Starved Wife"? I haven't read it, but I was thinking about getting a copy for my wife's friend, who has our copy of SSM right now.
A few days ago, when I decided to try letting go, I stopped all that. If he initiates, then I hug/kiss/say "I love you" back - but he has to start it. If having me pestering him with affection is so terrible, then I won't make him put up with it any more. If he wants it, he can come and get it.
It's a hurtful thought, isn't it? But it's not your affection that turns him off. It's the perception of being nagged or "pestered." It's the desperation of it. If it makes you feel any better, I posted something similar about how I was trying not to pester my wife when I was starting out here, and Dancequeen or Ali or somebody devoted a paragraph to why I shouldn't be pestering her and what that choice of word meant.
Anyway, you're doing the right thing. It helps to set a time period for yourself and stick to it--"I will not initiate for one month" for example. Actually, people suggest anything from a month to a year, but I personally thought a month was enough to bite off at one time.
1) Women don't get to pick the men they like; men get to do the choosing. We just have to hope the ones who choose us, are attractive to us too.
Read that again. Can you see how hopeless and desperate that sounds? What if the man who chooses you is not attractive to you? You marry him anyway, or he's out of luck even though he chose you? You're both choosing. Men have the same issue; they can choose a woman, but if she doesn't choose them, it's not going to work. They can also, as you suggest, decide to sit back and choose among the women who seek them out, hoping that a woman they find attractive will happen to find them.
It doesn't tend to work a whole lot better for men than it does for women.
Even when you find someone great, it doesn't work that well. Someday I'll tell you how I met my wife, but for now, let's just say that she did all the pursuing at first, including literally trying to trick me into going on a date with her. Then I fell for her and she was wonderful--but eventually we had problems that couldn't be solved by hanging back and hoping she would take care of everything. If I'd stuck to that pattern, we might not be married now.
2) Any forward progress in a relationship has to be the man's idea, or it won't work.[/quote]
Well, either that, or the woman's. Do you really believe your husband will never accept any idea you come up with?
But, I didn't tell him yet again what I AM depressed about. If he doesn't know by now, he hasn't listened when I've tried to tell him for the past 2 years. I'm depressed bcs we haven't had sex since Oct. 29, and I'm mourning the end of my sex life.
He really, truly might not know. Poke around here a little; I'll look up some names for you. There are LD spouses here who helped me a lot by telling me that no, they really didn't understand when their spouses really did tell them bluntly how important sex was and how depressing it was to be shut out. Some of them eventually caught on, or their spouses figured out the right words. Most had to have a wake-up call. The lucky ones, read SSM or some other work that showed them what their spouses were going through. The unlucky ones found themselve with walk-away spouses, discovered their spouses' affairs, or like my wife got sat down and told that we were headed for a divorce.
Trying to explain HD sexuality to a LD person with words is like trying to explain Van Gogh to a child born blind. They don't experience the world the way you do. The words don't have the power to get it across completely. If they did, you would understand all that LD psychology you and I were just commiserating about not understanding, right?
Last week, I was home from work on time for 3 days out of 5. So I'm doing better about that. If I can keep that up, we'll see if DH notices (and ever wants to do anything other than sit in front of the TV every evening.)
Here's your chance. Don't wait for him to come up with something to do. You do it, and invite him along. You mentioned going to see
The Road (a sure cure for depression--after that, maybe you can find some kittens with cancer or something.) Anyway, you come home, he's watching TV, you want to go see the movie. Tell him about your day, ask about his, whatever you do. Then tell him you're going to see that movie you've been talking about. Does he want to come?
If he tells you he doesn't want to go,
then you go. Call your friend, go by yourself, whatever, it doesn't matter as long as you're doing something you're interested in doing.
Now, odds are that he's going to notice this and if you're enjoying yourself, he'll notice that, too. He may decide he wants to see what all the fun is next time. But worst case, if he shrugs and goes back to the TV, you're having fun instead of being depressed.
Just remember to pick things you want to do for your own reasons. That's important. It's not a ploy to get him interested in you, it's about taking control. The happy side effect is that most people find that more attractive than depression or desperation.
- I'm backing off from him. For awhile there, I was hugging, kissing, etc. (w/ sexual overtones), saying "I love you" and similar things, etc.
A few days ago, when I decided to try letting go, I stopped all that. If he initiates, then I hug/kiss/say "I love you" back - but he has to start it. If having me pestering him with affection is so terrible, then I won't make him put up with it any more. If he wants it, he can come and get it.
....But yesterday, when I was depressed and not hiding it, DH was very loving and sweet with me. Hugs and kisses and kind words, loving glances, etc. And when he gives me that, I respond in kind. I've just stopped initiating for now.
I did get The Book (SSM), and am trying the bit about being good to myself. I'm sticking w/ my weight loss program, but the fact that I'm doing it for me (health reasons) as well as for attractiveness reasons, helps me stay motivated to keep losing the weight. Actually, I'm close to my goal weight now. Only 15 pounds left to go! I'm going to yoga class, and reconnecting with old friends via Facebook. Soaking in the tub, reading a good book, cuddling with our cats, all those things are ways I can take care of myself.
Congratulations on both weight loss and getting and reading SSM. You are doing a couple of very positive things. First you are doing a 180 by not pushing for sex. Second you are getting a life (GAL) and taking care of yourself. Both of those things should make you more desirable.
I am trying similar things to try to spark things up with my LD wife. I am taking a slightly different track in my sexual touching 180. She has alway told me for over three decades that she would touch me more if it didn't always lead to my needing sex. I decided to call her on this recently after a couple of months without sex and told her that I was not going to have sex with her under any circumstance for two months and that during that time I wanted her to be able to touch me with her knowing that it wouldn't lead to sex under any circumstance.
During this past month, I have kept a daily log to record what I do in touching her and what she does in touching me. I have to admit to two things. I am surprised by how much she is now touching me; about once every other day. I am also surprised by the kind of touching she is doing. She will kiss me good bye in the morning when we go to work (no passion, but nice) and she will in bed put her feet against my leg as a sign of affection or reach out as she goes to sleep to tough an arm or try to hold a hand. It is sweat and I like it, but it is not the passion I really want. I am seeing that she is trying in her way and I appreciate that. It gives me hope that if I create a protective environment long enough, maybe the flame of her physical love for me can grow stronger.
Once decades ago during a terrible fight, my wife said that she loved me, but she just didn't show it by having sex with me, she said she did the cooking, the grocery shopping, the laundry, and the cleaning and that was how she showed me that she loved me. It is only recently that I have come to understand that she always has been telling me she loved me through acts of service and devotion, but I just haven't been hearing her constant statements of love.
You say that your husband does hug and kiss you. Congratulations. That is a good sign.
Rather than "witholding" your telling him that you love him and your touching him, why don't you keep on telling him that you love him, and continue to touch him, but in a less sexual way. He still needs your love, even if you are the HD partner.
I found the SSM a great book with great insights. Yesterday just before dinner, I set up next Saturday for when my wife and I are going to discuss it and a couple of other books. Also since you are reading books, may I suggest the 5 Languages of Love (Dr. Chapman) and the survey at the back to see what you and your husband's love languages are, so you can better communicate your love to him in a way that he can receive the message. If you can spring for one more book try Hold Me Tight by Dr. Sue Johnson. Those three books are the ones that I have read that have impressed me the most. Another book that was recommended to me, but hasn't yet arrived is No More Mr. Nice Guy. Others can tell you if it is appropriate for you or not.
Good luck, keep to your goals of weight loss and getting a life and stay optimistic. Try to look for the good things in your relationship and his attempts at saying he loves you in his way of communicating that.
Thanks, Silly and Young, for your ideas. I don't have time to give a long response right now - but just want you to know your help is appreciated (and I plan to try your advice.) TTYL.