I've now been hanging about this SSM forum for about 9 months. While I am neither a -really- old timer nor an overly prolific poster, I am starting to see a pattern emerge in all of the various situations presented here, which I thought I would share with you. Feel free to join in this discussion, correct my misconceptions, or add your own observations.
This is written from the standpoint of the High Desire (HD) partner, caught in a sex-starved marriage to a Low Desire (LD) partner, and who comes here looking for a way to repair the relationship and restore the lost intimacy. From what I have observed (both here and in my own situation), this journey encompasses four phases:
Phase 1: Heal Yourself
Many folks come here angry, hurt, frustrated, and bitter, and are desperately seeking a way to improve their spouse. "If only my spouse would turn on to me sexually, I would be happy again," is the common refrain. So the first truth that must be digested is: the only person you can change in your marriage is YOURSELF. You cannot fix your spouse, and cannot wait for them to make you happy. Initially, you need to focus your energies on improving yourself, for yourself.
This means taking care of yourself physically: eating right, dieting if need be, exercising regularly. This means taking care of yourself mentally: putting new energy into your chosen career, picking up old, neglected hobbies again or finding new ones, getting out of the house more, staying active, revitalizing old friendships or making new ones. This also means caring about your appearance and hygiene: adopting more effective or thorough grooming habits, adopting a new hair style, improving your wardrobe, taking time to pamper yourself with trips to the spa or salon. All the while, your background focus should be on appreciating YOURSELF, boosting your own self-confidence and self-image, and placing your own happiness in your own hands.
A side benefit is that all the while, you are also making yourself more attractive to your spouse. They will stop seeing you as that "angry jerk" or "nagging bitch," and start seeing you again as a happy, self-assured person -- an improved version of the person they were originally attracted to. Your spouse will also feel as if a great weight has been lifted from their own shoulders, as you are no longer depending upon them for your happiness. This sets the stage for Phase 2.
Phase 2: Learn to Meet Your Spouses Needs
This phase might be divided into two parts: (a) education and (b) real giving (to use SG's terminology). Sex-starved marriages ALWAYS involve a failure of TWO (2) people to understand and meet the needs of their spouse. It's rarely one-sided, and while the HD spouse who comes here can point to the failure of the LD spouse to meet their need for physical intimacy, it should be taken as a given that this same HD spouse has, in turn, been failing to meet the needs of their LD spouse.
Very often this failure, on both sides, is wrapped up in the frequently profound differences between men and women. People are often so caught up in their own point-of-view that they completely miss the fact that men and women think, talk, act, and response emotionally very differently from each other, and have very different needs with regard to feeling loved and feeling sexual. Therefore, educating oneself about the opposite sex in general, and about your own spouse in particular, is vital toward solving your sex-starved marriage.
Once you start learning what your spouse's true needs are with regard to friendship, love, and intimacy, the next step is to begin meeting those needs: WITHOUT expecting anything in return. You are showing them that you have a (most likely new-found) knowledge of them and what they need to feel loved and supported, and that YOU are willing to meet those needs --> perhaps for the first time in years.
You are proving to your spouse that you have turned over a new leaf and are willing to work hard to improve the relationship. And it has to be seen as an earnest, long-term effort -- not some short term 'fad' in order to get sex -- but a real effort from the heart.
Phase 3: Get Your Spouse on Board
This is, perhaps, the most critical phase of the four listed, and how you go about it is situation dependent. The most crucial aspect of this phase, in my view, is to have completed Phases 1 and 2 FIRST. If you jump the gun, if you still appear to be angry and demanding, if you still appear to be dependent and needy, if you still appear to not understand your partner's needs, or if you still appear to be selfish and only interested in your own needs: you will most likely fail here. Lay the groundwork carefully and properly.
One effective vehicle for approaching this step is to have your spouse read Chapter 1 of The Sex-Starved Marriage. If the stage has been properly set, then your spouse may be receptive and really GET the message and understand what you have been going through. Other spouses may respond well to a request to start counseling or sex therapy together. Still other spouses may requires some form of "kick in the pants," ultimatum, or what have you, to get them moving, but this ought to be a last resort technique, after the above two have not worked.
Every marriage, and every situation is different, so you'll have to decide how best to proceed. Just make sure that you have done your part to 'get on board,' before asking your spouse to do so.
Phase 4: Working Together
At this point, your spouse will need to go through Phases 1 and 2 on their own, following your lead. They have, no doubt, come to the table just as 'damaged' as you once were, and need to spend some time focusing on themselves and their own self-confidence and self-image. After that, they will have their own education to go through in understanding the opposite sex in general, and you and your needs in particular. All of this takes time, love, and patience on your part.
Along the way, you can follow the guidelines laid out in The Sex-Starved Marriage, pick up some other useful self-help relationship books, attend marriage counseling or sex therapy -- whatever it takes to keep the ball rolling forward. Educating yourself and your spouse in sexual techniques and variety is often a part of this stage too -- everyone can always get better in the bedroom. Be prepared for setbacks and stumbles, sudden surges forward followed by weeks of stagnation -- it's all a slow, often unsteady process. In general, expect repairing your relationship to take about 1-2 months for every 1 year of marriage.
Finally, never forget that a successful relationship and sex life requires CONSTANT, daily maintenance. Communicate clearly with your spouse every day. Court your spouse every day. Show your spouse appreciation and thanks every day. Affirm the attractiveness of your spouse, in your eyes, every day. Maintain a high level of emotional intimacy and sexual 'tension' every day. You get the idea.
Marriage is work -- hard work -- but well worth the rewards.
Best of luck,
Bagheera
An example of the time-line: from my own situation:
Phase 1 (heal yourself): 1/07-6/07 (6 months)
Phase 2 (learn to serve your spouse): 7/07-10/07 (4 months)
Phase 3 (get spouse on board): 11/07 (1 months)
Phase 4 (working together): 12/07-present (9 months, so far)
Is this breakdown making sense to anyone else?
or am I simply describing what fits my own particular case?
-- B.
I think it makes perfect sense ~B.
I would just say that the timline for each phase may vary.
And if spouse doesnt come aboard you can very well get stuck on serve your spouse indefinitely.
~Ali
And if spouse doesn't come aboard you can very well get stuck on serve your spouse indefinitely.
I know that's where you're stuck, hon: (((Ali)))
The
HOW do you get your spouse on board part is the trickiest phase, and the most situation dependent. It's one of the most commonly asked questions here, and I've puzzled over the best advice to give going back to my
Carrot vs. Stick post to NTE. For many spouses, it seems that the only thing that will get them moving is a rather severe 'kick in the pants,' an ultimatum to the effect that "I am willing to do my part (and have been, these last few months), but YOU have to do your part too, or this marriage is through."
Timing is critical, in that you must have gotten through Phases 1 and 2
before delivering such an ultimatum. Making such a statement too soon -- while you're still bitter and angry, and have NOT been meeting your spouses needs -- will likely result in your likewise angry spouse saying "Fine. We're done, then!" You have to be prepared for this as an outcome, of course, but if you've set the stage correctly, you can make it more likely that you spouse will agree to work with you to repair the relationship.
In thinking back to last year, perhaps the best indication that you have completed Phases 1 and 2 successfully, and your spouse is 'primed' to come on board, is
a noticeable improvement in your sex life, quantity and quality. It won't be up to level of what you (as the HD spouse) are really after, but it will be noticeable. Why? Working through Phase 1 will make you more attractive in general to your partner. Working through Phase 2 will begin to 'soften' your spouse and make them feel more loved and closer to you than they have in years. The likely result (although not guaranteed) will be *some* improvements in your intimate relationship --> UNLESS your spouse has
so much built up anger and resentment themselves that they aren't ready for the "new you" yet. In that case, keep at Phase 2 for a longer period of time, until you do see a softening in how your spouse treats you. Thus, when the ice finally starts to melt, and you definitely notice it and appreciate it,
that's when it's probably time for the more serious talk.
Going by my highly scientific sample of one (1) relationship on the mend....
-- B.
Bagheera,
Your timeline sounds totally normal and reasonable. I think that Strong & Alive said on one of my threads that his timeline was somewhat similar.
My friend Vorlon has a similar story and timeline, and I am hoping he will read your thread and chime in, too. Although he was, I think, making his changes in a general way to upgrade his marriage - - versus just upgrading the sexual content - - but in the end, I think that is what you found out, too...that it wasn't *just* that you were sex-starved, but also that you and your wife *both* needed to drop the rope and fall in love again.
DQ
I think that is what you found out, too...that it wasn't *just* that you were sex-starved, but also that you and your wife *both* needed to drop the rope and fall in love again.
Amen.
-- B.
B - Yes a very reasonable timeline, boy I wish I had done it that way. Here's the totally bass-ackwards way I have gone about it thus far (I won't count my feeble attempts before the light turned on reading SSM):
Phase 3.1 (get spouse on board): 5/31/08 (1st attempt)
Phase 1 (heal yourself): 5/31/08-6/28/08 (1 month)
Phase 2 (learn to serve your spouse): 6/15/08-date (still learning)
Phase 3.2 (get spouse on board): 6/26/08 (2nd attempt)
Phase 3.3 (get spouse on board): 8/10/08 (3rd attempt, MC?)
Phase 3.4 (get spouse on board): 8/20/08 (4th attempt)
Phase 4 (working together): have not yet reached this phase
As you can see by jumping the gun to get your spouse on board it really seems like nagging to them. DO NOT USE MY TIMELINE AS A MODEL FOR SUCCESS! If anything at least I am an example of how not to go about it.
Cinco
Is this breakdown making sense to anyone else?
Hmmm...I didn't make myself very clear.
I was more interested in feedback on the four phases themselves, and not so much the time-line that I took to go through them --> which will vary significantly from situation to situation.
What prompted this thread is that nearly every frustrated, HD spouse who comes here is initially looking for a way to jump to Phase 3 immediately (ala NTE, Cinco, etc.). I honestly would have been doing the same thing, but for two reasons: (1) a job-related 6-month separation which forced me to look at my own life and work on MYSELF exclusively, while my wife was thousands of miles away, and (2) I hadn't found the SSM book yet to shove it under her nose prematurely.
Looking back to two years ago, my wife and I were each leading our own separate and parallel lives, staying together "for the sake of the kids," and both of us had 20 years worth of anger, resentment, and a complete lack of trust in the other to meet our marital needs. If I had found and given a copy of
The SSM to my wife at that time (a) she would have seen it as an attempt to fix HER only, and (b) she would have told in no uncertain terms that there was a LOT more wrong with our marriage than a lack of sex. And she would have been right.
However, as it turned out, I got lucky. I had the time and opportunity to wake up, work past my own frustration and resentment, reclaim my masculinity, and take the lead in fixing our relationship. I then found the right books to educate myself in men, women, and relationships enough to see what I had been doing wrong for all those years and begin to fix it -- and really begin to understand and meet my wife's (very different) needs. It was only after a few months of applying what I had learned from the M/V books (and others), that I found the SSM book, could introduce it to my wife, and then get her fully on board toward fixing our foundering sexual relationship.
It's this 'progression' that I wanted to share, especially with those still caught up in their own bitterness (but who still love their spouse and desperately want to find a way out of that pit).
-- B.
Baggy - yes, the phases - YES....we wish and hope for people to realize it is a process, not a bandaid.
There is no quick fix, but there is certainly *treatment* and *recovery*.
The only quick fix about it is the moment people decide and resolve for themselves to begin phase one. There is a quick fix in that decision. It fixes a lot, actually. It is the moment we go from being victims to being empowered.
DQ
OK Baggy, I saw you lurking over at M/V!
I am "Swing Dancer" over there.
peek a boo!
DQ
Bagheera,
Thanks for providing the links in Newcomers!!!
ALL NIGHT LONG...
We did the bump bump bump...
Yes we did yes we did yes we did, now!
(sorry, I am a disco addict, the above is from "Boogie Fever" lyrics)
OK, here's my question: he says he finds me attractive, he says he was happy until he found me flirting with other men (after 20 years of marriage). He has always, since our wedding, said he just is not interested in sex as much as I am. He says I need to just accept that. That it should not be as important to me as it is.
He also thinks that kissing/hugging/caressing is "a waste of time" if it is not part of sex. So, you know, I can have none of that, except in the middle of the sex act.
So if he thinks that it is "sex addiction" on my part (his most recent comment), and that I should not need or desire sex more than he does, and that he can't have sex or kiss or hold me unless he realllllllly wants to in that moment because that would be "fake", well, where does that leave me?
Greetings WC40, and welcome to the SSM forum,
I'll first recommend that you start your own thread here in the SSM forum, by pressing the New Topic button in the forum's topic/thread listing. Then give us an introduction to yourself and your situation, perhaps a brief history of your relationship. That will help folks a lot in figuring out what advice they can give, if any --> no one wants to give bum advice based on not understanding the situation.
From what you have said so far, I see two things going on with your H:
First, he doesn't understand the importance of intimacy, particularly emotional intimacy, to a woman. You aren't just sex-staved, you're intimacy starved. His attitude is a very common trait among men; that is, it's a pretty typical male viewpoint to devalue and even belittle emotional intimacy and bonding: sharing and talking about deep feelings; non-sexual touching, hugging, kissing; spooning and cuddling, etc. Men are brought up to NOT need or want such things -- else you're a sissy. So in the first place, he needs to learn how to open himself up to such intimacy, as well as realizing that women are very different and that most women NEED this high degree of intimacy in order to feel happy and fulfilled in a relationship.
Second, he has the very typical LD spouse attitude that if sex isn't important to him, then why should it be so damn important to you? He's wrapped up in his own viewpoint, and refuses to see the validity in your desires and needs for physical intimacy -- especially since they seem to threaten his. And like most LD spouses he just doesn't 'get it' that sex is far, far more than a simple physical act or physical release for you -- that physical and emotional intimacy are intertwined and that both are important to a healthy and happy relationship.
HOWEVER, despite that I've acknowledged two areas where your husband needs to reeducate himself and change his way of doing things, the cold facts is: I can't change him, and neither can you. He will eventually have to be brought around to changing himself, and the only way to do that is to begin to make changes in YOURSELF and how you interact with him.
Take a hard look at Phases 1 and 2 that I outlined in this thread, and look for ways in which you can make yourself better --> for yourself <-- and get out of anger & resentment mode (if that's where you are). Look for ways that you can begin meeting his relationship needs on his own terms, and without asking for anything in return (for now). If he is to come around, finally 'get it,' and start working with you to fix the problem, you've got some groundwork to do first.
This isn't easy -- I know from my own experience. It's far, far too easy to say "I'm miserable, my spouse is the one causing ME pain, my spouse is the one who needs to change!"
* It's HARD as heck for the men here to go from being 'that angry jerk' who only 'wants to get laid' to being seen as a loving husband again by their LD wife.
* It's HARD as heck for the women here to go from being 'that nagging bitch' who only 'wants to get laid' to being seen as a loving wife again by their LD husband.
But I'm convinced that this is a NECESSARY step toward producing positive change in the LD spouse (and the relationship). for over 20 years, I was angry, resentful, bitter, disconnected, and distant: and nothing ever changed and in fact, things only got worse over time. It was ONLY when I was able to flush enough of the negatives, and start loving my wife --> ON HER OWN LD TERMS <-- that we began to make progress and she began to move in my direction with regard to physical intimacy.
Best regards,
-- B.
Thanks, Bagheera.
I have pretty much decided that I am NOT going to see a change in him. So I am working on myself, with the assumption that my marriage will never change in the ways I would like to see. My hope is that I will become a better person, and live up to my vows, and gain some sort of contentment and peace in the face of loneliness and frustration, without seeking that intimacy from men other than my husband and without feeling like I have become a martyr.
You are dead ON, that I am not only sex-starved but desperately intimacy-starved. Last time I tried to explain that to my husband, he suggested I "plant a flower, or go shopping, or something."
You are right, I should start my own thread. Actually, I did, a few days ago, and then I thought, "geez! when he reads that, he will have a fit!" so I decided to take it down, for now at least. I think I am too upset to speak well about it--and the whole story is so convoluted and long, and as a woman it is just mortifying,too.
After all, you guys are SUPPOSED to be chasing us around the bed, right? and we are SUPPOSED to be coy. Man, I would give anything for that.
Or almost anything. I realized, at about the last possible minute, that I would not give up my marriage for that feeling of being wanted and feminine. But what a crap trade-off. I thought I would have that WITHIN my marriage.
I am working on calming down, through counseling and other stuff. And much of the whole story is sexually-tinged, so seeing it online for all the world to see---ugh. I did not want to leave it there.
Perhaps at some point I will get the courage to post a thread for myself.
I don't know if this is the right place to post, but I guess I'm asking questions based on the 4 phases. Our marriage was going well until our third child (son) was born. My wife almost exclusively devoted her attention to him. I asked her to spend time together and to have sex. Most of the times, she turned to him even more or ignored my requests by not saying or doing anything. After about 18 months, I was wearing down, it was getting old. But then she stopped breast-feeding and things started to get better. Then, oops, she got pregnant again and this time was extremely sick. We had no time together, and now, without enough energy, I had to do all (ALL) the housework and we had even less time together than before.
The pregnancy ended in a miscarriage, which brought us together in a big way. But then, oops, she got pregnant again, sick again, and it was me all over again doing all the housework, having no time with my wife. Late in the pregnancy, I couldn't take it anymore. I did a lot of reading, online and in books. I was in a men's group at our church, and we did a book review on Larry Crabb's book Men and Women. The last date night we had was to go see the movie Fireproof. Everywhere I turned I felt like I was doing as much as I could to get things back on track but that she was ignoring me and authors like Larry Crabb defined her as selfish; he said spouses need to be "other centered" which is how I was trying very hard to be.
Then I came across the SSM book, and every page it seemed it was talking about me. I finally figured out that without closeness to my wife, I had lost my feelings of being connected to her. Then I talked to my wife about how I felt. She had no clue that her continual rejection of me over the past 2 years was creating a problem. I told her I did not feel connected anymore, but I didn't know how to change it because I had been trying, asking for time, attention and sex, but she was rejecting me.
She promised to do better. I told her I was going to back off serving her (housework) because I had no energy and without a connection with her, I felt I had no way of recharging my batteries. Now the baby came. We have always had problems with her not wanting to do housework of any kind. It's not getting done at all now. And I stopped doing any. Oh, and she told me she thought I was always angry, so that's why she stepped backed. I told her it wasn't intentional, but I recognized that I was much more discontent because she wasn't doing anything to me my needs and rejected me when I asked her to do something that made me feel important to her. Then I told her that the reason I have been discontent is that I have been asking her to meet my needs, but she has chosen not to. That's when she promised to do better. That was almost 2 months ago, still no change.
I have really enjoyed myself, going back into woodwork as my hobby and building things. Putting energy into tinkering with our cars, which I enjoy. And trying to spend more time with the kids - but I have found that the tension in our relationship adversely affects my relationship with our kids, which is something else she picked up on and said was a reason she took a step back. I have found my previously high sex drive is pretty much gone. It feels good not to be in bondage to the high sex drive. But I also found that since the baby was born, she has returned to be (was sleeping on the sofa every night - never really understood why - claimed she wasn't comfortable anywhere else), but I am not comfortable with her there. I feel like she's invading my space. I question whether or how long it will take for those feelings to return, especially if she doesn't make any effort to do things differently. Baby is now a month old and she is back on the sofa. Fine by me, when we do sleep in the same bed, I don't like her being too close. It used to be that I always wanted to be as close to her as I could be, that's what I enjoyed, even if we weren't having sex.
I guess my question is what am I to be doing to meet my spouse's needs? She won't spend time together. Can't have sex for another few weeks per her doctor, and I'm not confident she will initiate anyway when it is time. I just spent most of the last 12-18 months doing the majority of the housework. I have bought her little gifts once in awhile, but it never appears as though she genuinely appreciates them. I relieve her of cooking usually once a week by ordering in or going out.
What's left? I honestly don't know what else I could be doing or could have done to make things turn out any differently. Perhaps I was doing too much and she became complacent. Well, I'm sorry, but I'm a giving person, and I guess I have the attitude that if I bend over backwards for you, you're not going to take advantage of me. Apparently I was wrong - with my own spouse! And I told her I felt she was taking advantage of me.
I'm open to suggestions. But I have told her how I felt, that I have needs that aren't being met. If she doesn't have any interest in making an investment into the marriage, I feel like I'm wasting my time pursuing her. Given that it's been almost 3 years now, I don't see things getting any better until she decides she can positively influence the outcome. I tried to have her read the SSM book with me. She read the 1st chapter, but nothing else.
Any ideas? Otherwise, I'm going back to the workshop - I'm kind of enjoying this self-healing thing!
For Phase 2 (educating yourself), my favorite relationship / sexuality books (so far):
In addition to Michele's The Sex-Starved Marriage and The Sex-Starved Wife, I recommend the below.
Understanding the differences between the sexes
Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, by John Gray
Despite his several attempts to repackage his basic material, this 'old' (1985) original presentatin is still, to me, John Gray's best book on the topic. I like everything except for his "Love Letters" approach to conflict resolution, which is a bit 'old school' and not very effective. The chapters on how men and women feel loved in a relationship are a must read.
Note: Like Jayce, I do NOT recommend Mars and Venus in the Bedroom. While there is *some* good advice there, it is poorly written and organized, and not general enough to a majority of couples (more John Gray's personal experience than anything else). For a better coverage of intimacy issues between the sexes, see The 5 Sex Needs of Men and Women, below.
Why Men Don't Have a Clue and Women Always Need More Shoes, by Barbara Pease and Allan Pease.
A fun read which covers much of John Gray's classic material in a more light-hearted, day-to-day practical fashion.
The 5 Sex Needs of Men & Women, by Gary Rosberg, Barbara Rosberg, and Ginger Kolbaba.
The book is written specifically for Christian couples, but does the best job of explaining intimacy differences between the sexes and offering potential solutions in the area of Michele's Intimacy Dilemma of any book I've yet come across. If the religious theme / bits don't apply to you, ignore them -- it's worth the read anyway.
Communication and Conflict Resolution
The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, by John M. Gottman and Nan Silver
An excellent guide to conflict resolution and learning to communicate effectively with each other -- without fighting.
Sexual Arousal and Passion
Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies by Michael J. Bader.
Written for a psychologist audience, this book is nonetheless very good at explaining why people get turned on by what they do, and why it varies so widely from individual to individual. If you have ever wondered why you have the strange (and perhaps alarming) sexual fantasies that you do, or want to understand why your mate gets turned on by what they respond best to, this is a great read.
Passionate Marriage, by David Schnarch
I have, admittedly, not gone through this book in detail yet, but it comes highly recommended by many of the old-timers on this forum. It's on my shelf, waiting to be read!
Sexual Techniques
The Guide to Getting It On, by Psy.D. Paul Joannides and Daerick Gross Sr.
DanceQueen turned us all on to this fat, informative, and yet often funny book several months ago. It's a keeper, and better than the old classic The Joy of Sex, by Alex Comfort and Susan Quilliam.
She Comes First and He Comes Next, by Ian Kerner.
Written by a sex therapist, both of these books are obstensibly about oral techniques, the first book him-on-her, the second book her-on-him. However, in addition to the very good information and techniques for oral pleasure, Ian also goes in-depth into male & female sexuality and covers a lot of material outside of the bedroom, particularly in the second book.
Men -- both in and out of the bedroom
The New Male Sexuality, Revised Edition, by Bernie Zilbergeld.
This is a great read for BOTH men and women, which completely untangles tne common myths and misperceptions that *both* men and women have regarding male sexuality and the male sexual organs. Our marriage counselor / sex therapist had me read it before we even scheduled our first session with him. If you can't convince your spouse to go to a sex therapist, but he has problems with sexual desire, premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction, or some other sexual problem: get this book. There are chapters that cover each topic and which lay out the exercies and techniques commonly used to treat such issues.
No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Dr. Robert Glover.
Along with Passionate Marriage, this is a very frequently recommended book on this forum, because many of the men who come here are failing, in one way or another, to turn the women in their lives on due to a lack of masculine energy and 'power.' They've stopped being The Man in the relationship, and their wife knows it. There are other recommended books on this topic, such as The Way of the Superior Man, by David Deida (which I've not read), but NMMNG is the one to start with.
New here, first post, just started reading SSM. I'm HD husband, wife is LD. 3 young kids.
First, a 1000 thanks to Bagheera for his work and commitment to this topic and site. After reading this thread, BOY am I glad I own the book, my wife doesn't know it, and she doesn't know I'm working behind the scenes to make things better.
So far, I've latched onto the 180-degree/seesaw effect method of 'if it's not working, do something else', so I'm not going to nag her about having sex, not going to whine and complain when it doesn't happen, be generally likeable and approachable when with her. And, I hope this isn't taking the principle too far, I'm going to try (okay, did try this weekend) not initiating conversations. My feeling here is that I WANT to talk to her and be close to her, but there is a human nature tendency to fill voids, and I want to see her coming to me, instead of me coming to her. I'll be a great listener, establish and keep rapport, ask questions after a conversation is started, etc. Anyway, if it sounds like I'm wanting distance from her b/c I'm pissed, that's not it at all, I love her more than ever; but if she's always being solicited by me, there's no room for her to initiate, either conversations or sex.
If I may, I think RJRJR might be skipping the first step that Bagheera lists, and that's the problem.
OK, I see that I need to read SSM and pay attention to the four phases that Bagheera talks about.
Just like somebody here said - I'm trying to do phase 3 first. I need to start w/ phase 1, then go to phase 2.
I think we've reached Phase 4.
A good example was the other night. We had a long night after a long day, and I wanted to make love (because I had a long night after a long day.) She didn't (because she'd had a long night after a long day.) I persisted, we did it, and it was terrible. We were out of condoms, then we got frustrated, then she tried to start a lawnmower by yanking on my handle. I stopped her and we went to sleep unsatisfied.
The next day, I told her I was sorry I'd insisted, that we should have waited. She told me she was sorry she hadn't paid attention to what she was doing and what I was feeling. We talked about how we both felt guilty about what had happened, and we reassured each other. That night we had plenty of condoms . . . she'd picked up a box on the way home, and so had I. That night was as great as the night before was lousy.
The sex was great, but the point was that we talked to each other and worked it out so that everything worked out for us in the end. That's what I always wanted.
OK, so this might be a question for DQ.
I spent many years on stage 2. And I finally wised up and filed for D (for the second time) last week. We have a long history of domestic violence. I have left our home and started over in a new apartment.
We're Catholic, so that's kind of a big deal (divorcing, that is). STBX Hus is a strong willed Italian.
Since turning 40, I've had sex with my STBX exactly once. I find him repulsive, thus the D.
Meanwhile, Goldey has gotten some therapy, and is getting antsy. Actually, really antsy. I think I went from LD to HD in about 3 months. I feel like a 16 yo boy in a 41 yo woman's body. Some might say desperate. Trusty toys just aren't cutting it.
Technically still married, although emotionally De-Married for quite some time (I figure going on about 4 years) and the paperwork is just a formality.
Thank God, there are no third parties involved, although I do enjoy flirting when there are good boundaries. [deleted something I didn't mean to share], and it freaked me out. Won't be doing that again.
I certainly don't want to be a homewrecker.
Advice? I'm a bit bashful/private about sex, be gentle. When the booze shows up, I can get a bit rowdy, so I'm off the juice right now.
goldy...I guess I missed it but, where is the question in your post? Or maybe you are just wondering, is it normal to go from LD to HD seemingly overnight?
I can make a statement about that from my history, if it helps. When I was married before, it seemed that I was the LD spouse and my ex-h was the HD spouse. But after a divorce, a new husband, and a lot of reflection, I think now that I was actually always HD, I just didn't have lust or desire to have sex with my ex-h. For a while I thought that my getting older (I am about your age) was also contributing to my HD, and that could be true, and of course I figured the fact that I am extremely attracted to my current H and getting all my needs met also contribute to my HD. But when I really examine the truth, I know that I was always HD, I just didn't want to have sex with my ex-h.
Why? Well...there were numerous reasons...sexual attraction was never there (he was the classic nice guy and it turned me off), he wasn't meeting my needs as a husband (I had to do everything, literally everything...medical, kids, financial, major purchases, major decisions, housework, yard work, I was the main breadwinner, everything you can think of in terms of leading a family, including all the involvement with his very large family)...his sexual aptitude was very low...it was just plain all around a dud of a sex life for me. For his part, he felt that all that was needed to have sex was an erection, and since he had one, we should have been getting it on. No matter how I would try to entice him into taking on a bit more in our marriage, some new things in the bedroom, etc...it never seemed to make any difference. I realize now, he is who he is and I should have just loved him for who he was, or left much earlier.
Anyway...so for many years I wondered where the heck my sex drive was...I had remembered having one before being married...where did it go? I was physically attracted to my ex-h and therefore, I wondered why I didn't feel like having sex with him? I think now that I was too naive to understand that physical attraction can be present and still be lacking sexual attraction (and even vice versa).
Soo...I can definitely relate to suddenly feeling your full rush of HD coming on after leaving your H, if your sitch was anything like mine. My ex-h didn't repulse me, per se, I never felt that about him. And once we did get going on sex, I enjoyed it. But I never felt my blood boiling over the way I do now.
Is that what your post is about?
DQ
Well DanceQueen, in another thread, you mentioned that HD is sometimes more situational for women, and that women sometimes find it a turn-off that men are not so situationally dependent for their sex drives because women would rather feel that it is specific to them, not just sex for the sake of sex. But on the other hand, maybe women do benefit from men's more constant sex drives after all, otherwise, there would be many men who would not want to have sex with their wives because "not everything was right about the relationship". As you wrote:
But when I really examine the truth, I know that I was always HD, I just didn't want to have sex with my ex-h.
Why? Well...there were numerous reasons...sexual attraction was never there (he was the classic nice guy and it turned me off), he wasn't meeting my needs as a husband (I had to do everything, literally everything...medical, kids, financial, major purchases, major decisions, housework, yard work, I was the main breadwinner, everything you can think of in terms of leading a family, including all the involvement with his very large family)...his sexual aptitude was very low...it was just plain all around a dud of a sex life for me. For his part, he felt that all that was needed to have sex was an erection, and since he had one, we should have been getting it on. No matter how I would try to entice him into taking on a bit more in our marriage, some new things in the bedroom, etc...it never seemed to make any difference. I realize now, he is who he is and I should have just loved him for who he was, or left much earlier.
How about if I apply those standards to my wife, reversing the gender on your sentences, "For her part, she felt that all that was needed to have sex was to just lie there", "no matter how I would try to entice her... it never seemed to make any difference"? Too bad my sex drive wasn't vulnerable to these things, or else I could have doubly blamed my wife for my SSM -- not only did she not want sex, she made me not want sex either. And, a third effect, she also made me not want sex with anybody else either!
My question to you, DQ, is how can you let someone have so much power over your sex drive that he not only made you not want sex with him, he ruined your sex drive for anybody else, or even by your solitary self?
So perhaps it's a good thing that HD men are not so situationally dependent? Otherwise, many men would lose their HD after the countless times their situationally-dependent HD wives turn them down for sex. Such vulnerable men would then lose their sex drives after many rejections, making their situationally-dependent-HD wives feel even more rejected. So perhaps a man's sure-fire and constant HD is what is needed to break the spiral, and make a woman feel that a man is more like an "alpha rock" with his sex drive, rather than losing his erection every time a long list of emotional requirements is not in place.
As I've heard it, many women with LD or no-D men feel utterly rejected and envy women who complain jokingly about their eternally-erect husbands chasing them around the house. Sure, some women might feel turned-off by their man's eternal sexual desire because it feels like sex just for the sake of sex, but I think that reaction is more common among women who don't want much sex even under the best of circumstances.
As for the myth men's need for sex for sex's sake, even though my desire for my wife has never been situational, it doesn't mean I'd have much interest in bedding most women. In fact, only a minority of women fit my sexual "type", and I have literally no sexual attraction to most women. But if the woman fits my "type" in terms of both physical attraction, intelligence and personality, than my drive is pretty darn constant regardless of what she's recently said or done, or what time of day it is. In other words, a woman would feel that my sex drive for her is based on her for herself -- exactly what women want to feel -- rather than being based on if she said something insulting to me the day before, i.e., if "my feelings were hurt" and all that kind of wimpy non-alpha stuff.
So it seems to be the eternal double-bind that women sometimes try to put men into. They want them to be emotionally sensitive and vulnerable, but if they show it, they're wimpy and sexually unappealing.
My question is: Sex is the only thing you can't share with your spouse so I wonder who is actually hurt more the HD or LD? Yes it takes two to tango, but one to reject the other and the dance floor is empty by choice of the rejector.
First I want to thank you for your past support and advise. I found this thread particularly helpful after I changed and started to see progress in the healing of my SSM.
My wife and I met with our sex therapist last night and she told us that in her mind we were "cured."
We have regularly been having sex at least twice a week (I have said I would like it three times a week, but the therapist said to be greatful and accept some degree of compromise) and my wife is giving me signs of non-sexual physical affection regularly.
Similarly, I am working hard to make my wife feel loved by doing things in her languages of love (acts of service/devotion and quality time) every day.
She is much happier and we feel connected to each other. She has forgiven me and is no longer angry at me for things that happened 20+ years ago. We have also learned alot about communications and relationships over the past several months. Most importantly we want to be with each other for the rest of our lives.
I would add to your book list Chapman's the Five Languages of Love (as that was also a real break though in understanding how I had hurt my wife and how she had been telling me every day that she loved me in ways that I couldn't understand.)
As to you request for timing information:
Our marriage hit its low point last summer to the point where I the HD partner stopped having sex with my wife because of the emotional pain and rejection associated with "making love."
Phase 1 (heal yourself): 8/2009- present and future (signed up for a June half marathon and have weight loss and fitness/exercise goals into 2011).
Phase 2 (learn to serve your spouse): 10/2009-2/2010 (still learning and want to learn more as long as I live)
Phase 3 (get spouse on board): 12/2009 - 2/2010
Phase 4 (working together): 1/2010-present
Our board certified sex therapist has helped and told us to stay in touch with an ocassional email, and if we find a problem area to set up another appointment. My wife and I went out to dinner to celebrate and enjoy each other. She told me that we need to periodically pull out the Gottman Art and Science of Love weekend workshop kit and go through some of the expercises every three or four months just to remind each other what we have.
I am a very happy camper and feel more loved and connected to my wife that I have in decades.
I want to thank everyone who gave me advice, suggested things to do or read or gave me some moral support.
Props to you and your wife!!!
how do I know what he needs? He is very much admired, appreciated, loved. I ask him what can I do to help him to feel more attracted to me and he says "nothing". I don't smother him, we don't live together or even talk on the phone daily. I don't know what else to do. We have a good relationship otherwise.
Lucky you, young at heart. I've tried it all, ALL, and got nowhere. And if I stay, as I plan to, I have to find some way to accept living in a sex-less or very, VERY low-say marriage. At our last session with our therapist, my wife said clearly that she has no desire for me, that she has no desire to seek for desire. That she has no desire to look elsewhere (she came out to me and to herself in May as a lesbian). That she's happy to offer me hugs, cuddles and kisses. But that she is basically asexual. Time of life, post-menopause, and just no desire. I've been on a pretty desperate search here and elsewhere on the Web. We've both been going to a really good therapist, but she is now stopping, since there seems to be no point. We share many things, have a good life in every department but sex, and we are there united in mourning what neither of us have experienced: the joy of a total giving and receiving in physical love, in sex. I am just the wrong sex for her! But we've decided that we have more to gain than to lose by staying together. We have looked at the options of separation/divorce/an open marriage. Not all stories end happily ever after, and our seems to be one of them.
sbrass,
You have my deepest sympathy, that's a terrible story! The only reason I can understand seeing you stay in a no-sex marriage is because (1) the rest of the marriage is extremely fulfilling and meets your needs and/or (2) the sex just isn't that important to you.
That said, it sounds like the sex IS important to you, and it's hard to imagine being in a fulfilling marriage with a spouse who claims to have NO desire for you and is in fact gay.
I have to ask why you would stay in that marriage? At the very least I think you owe it to yourself to do a trial separation to make sure that staying is the right decision. If she's gay, she's gay, that's not going to change no matter what happens.
Acc
sbrass,
You have my deepest sympathy, that's a terrible story! The only reason I can understand seeing you stay in a no-sex marriage is because (1) the rest of the marriage is extremely fulfilling and meets your needs and/or (2) the sex just isn't that important to you.
That said, it sounds like the sex IS important to you, and it's hard to imagine being in a fulfilling marriage with a spouse who claims to have NO desire for you and is in fact gay.
I have to ask why you would stay in that marriage? At the very least I think you owe it to yourself to do a trial separation to make sure that staying is the right decision. If she's gay, she's gay, that's not going to change no matter what happens.
Acc
She could be "gay" and not have attraction towards the male... However she as a friend and relationship partner could decide to physically allow him access to copulate her. It might not be her favorite activity to do, but she might find it out of the kindness of her heart to think that her husband should recieve this guesture. She might even come to enjoy that he is being pleased through the activity.
I've been in phase 1 for a VERY long time. 11 years and he won't even talk to me about the subject no matter how I bring it up in a loving way. I know I need to order and read Michele's book, The Sex Starved Wife but at this point I am not sure I want to work it out most days. I am 51 and time is a wasting. My 40's GONE!!!! I am not even sure at this point he isn't withholding to be abusive knowing it bothers me. I've went years without saying a word hoping he would come around. Confused and ready to leave but I'll open my heart and make more changes but I HAVE to put a time limit on this. I am not waiting around to let someone else decide my future any longer. Heartbroken really!!!