I was almost a WAW - DivorceBusting.com

Okay.....let's see if this works. I forgot how to get on board....sorry (lol)

Okay, think I got it this time, so here is my original thread if anyone is interested. I appeciate all the sweets things you (my new friends over here in SSM)have been saying.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1116410&page=2#Post1116410

Then after that thread locked up, I went over to "Piecing" but was encouraged to come here for a while. This was my thread there.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1166115&page=1&nt=7&fpart=1

I could probably win the prize for going the longest without sex in a MR. So, anyone that wants to talk.....I'm here every night.

Sandi2

you might wanna post a summarized recap, too, for those of short attention span $;\)$

Welcome aboard Sandi. I think you will learn a lot on this forum. I think it's great you uncovered your sensuality...now to bridge those feelings to your H, that is a big step. A day at a time.

xo, Journey

Oh God.....a "recap"! Well, ok, here goes. I thought I may be having a MLC b/c I had all the signs....only thing was I was about to turn 60, so that seem to be a bit old for mid-life. However, my M was in trouble. We had not had sex in eleven years and I was very lonely. Even though I had never had a problem with "age" like some women do....suddenly here I was turning 60 and boy did it hit me hard! It's a long story, but you can read my threads, if you want details (lol), but I fell into playing the on-line games where you can chat with the players. Men would flirt with me... and at first, of course, I wouldn't do that b/c I was too much of a lady....and a married one at that. But I finally began to flirt back....but guess what? It was fun! Then they (some of the men I flirted with) wanted more than just to play the games....they wanted to get on my "friends list" so we could IM. Especially when they discovered I had a web cam....they were very interested in seeing what I looked like. Well (of course) they would always act shocked that I was so "beautiful"! (fool) Anyway eventually I got on an adult friends chat line and the rest of the story gets ugly. However, through some great guidance from people here....I discovered that was my "drug of choice".

I was so stupid and so careless about my on-line contacts and conversations that my H and my grown D (and maybe my grandson) found my messages! I would even write short romance stories....even using my name for the female character....and it would be packed full of sexual content. Well, that was found by them also. My H does not know that my D found them. But, she finally told me that she knew before he did. I can tell you that I truly wanted to die!!!

When H finally confronted me about it and demanded I delete everything and everyone....and everything WOULD be over.....(or so he thought)....it got into high gear. I did delete everyone....except one man. Out of rebellion toward my H, my depression, my health issues.....and hundred other reasons.....I went into a full blown EA with the OM on-line (that I had failed to delete from my friends list). Let me tell you the OM was good! He fed my ego everything it wanted to hear. I felt great.....in some ways. Started looking pretty darn good too! But in other ways.....I felt awful. I think the word "hell" comes to mind.

Things got really bad and I was ready to walk away from 41 years of marriage! My H did all the wrong things that most S do when they are clinging to the one that is wanting to leave. If I had had the money to make it on my own....I would have walked out. I did not want to move in with my mother, but I would have--if my H had not backed away when he did and give me the space he did. That was the only thing that saved me from walking out the door! Well....that and the fact I found this board. I got some great help from very caring people here. I was reading everything on this board.....and plus other web sites.....buying books, tapes, etc. In other words.....took a big crash course.

So now, we are back to where the MR was before I started playing the games and that whole scene. BTW, I did tell the OM good-bye...but I was so close to having a PA with him that we had made plans to meet....when, where, etc. I am just so very thankful that it never got to that stage, b/c I think my M would surely be over now and and a lot more damage done than ever.

My H has been able to forgive me and we are back to where our "normal" was. However, I don't want that "normal" b/c that is why I got into trouble in the first place. I don't want to settle for that. But, my problem is---that I don't have any sexual desire for my H. He wants me, but he has not slept in the same bedroom with me in 22 years and has not had sex with me in 11 years. He waits for me to make the moves....and I can't.....or I should say....I won't do it. I care deeply about him and love him the way I would love another member of my family.....but don't feel in love with him and don't want to have sex with him.

It has been an on-going problem all our married life. He has always blamed me for being frigid and for "rejecting" him when he would try to have sex with me. I admit that most every time that I did feel "turned off" by him. So, I thought something was very wrong with me. Now, I am not gay! I like men. So, that is not the problem. I just never got the hots for my H. I went for years thinking that something was adnormal about me when I would read books and see movies about other women. I never felt anything like they did! I never had a climax with my H. Had to read about what to do to give myself one in order to experience it. Then I was hooked! I loved it! Would have loved having one with my H. BTW, I was very sheltered growing up and never even masterbated before I got married....much less have sex before M. I barely knew the facts of life enough to have sex on our wedding night!

I prayed for years and years that God would just "fix me" so I could be a good wife to my H. He was a good man and deserved to have a good, loving, sexy W in return. About the time I felt like that just might actually happen.....my H suddenly stopped having sex with me.....without one word of explanation. I thought it was b/c he could no longer "get it up" and did not want to put pressure on him......and besides he blamed me for his "problem" b/c he didn't get it enough was why he couldn't get it up anymore. (Wheeee.....now I'm out of breath!) So, we have gone all these years without sex and it isn't getting any better (and we're not getting any younger...if you know what I mean).

My feelings for him are resentful and I have days that I am very angry toward him......and not sure why. I still feel very turned off by him. He is not bad looking, has a good personality, very clean, etc. But, we are like you see couples that have been married a long time and it seems like everything about the one mate irritates the other mate. We get on each other's nerves! We had gotten where we fussed quite a bit before the on-line EA. We don't do that anymore.

I don't want to live out my years in a R like that. He won't go to C. We go to church, and go to work, and go to a few family get togethers....and that is our life. Very boring to tell you the truth. Boredom got me into trouble.

BTW, I have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. That probably doesn't mean much to anyone unless they or a family member has it. It is very painful and limits your activities. Depression goes hand in hand with it and getting up and going to work every morning is a challenge.

Well, I feel like I have told this in a choppy style and I am sorry if it doesn't make much sense to you. I welcome any suggestions or even questions. That is why I'm here in SSM. I don't want my R to be this way. I want to feel desire for my H, but I can't seem to force it to happen. I know the books say to just "do it anyway" but I can't seem to be able to do that.

I think I am okay with the "age" thing now. Apparently the MLC didn't last long (thank God). I didn't have the energy to fight it anyway....lol.

I have not heard from any women my age. A few men have told me they were in their 60's. If there are any folks around this age or have been married this long....it sure would help to hear how you are coping with any like manner problems. Heck, it doesn't matter about the age. It is just that I feel like the oldest person on here....lol. But you know what? Over my life.....age never made any difference in my friendships. I've had friends that were 20 years older than me and 20 years younger. Isn't that great? However, somewhere through my depression.....and lack of interest in life and health problems, I don't feel like I have any friends left....you know...the "running buddy" type of friends. Nobody to go have a good time with. So, you all are my friends now. Oh Lordy.....welcome to my pity party I'm having.

Okay, that must be a sign to shut up for a while and get a grip. Come talk to me.....

Sandi2

Hi Sandi,
How are you?
My WAW also "suffers" from a LD. While like most men, mine is a HD. I guess it doesn't matter much though, since neither one of us is gettin' any!

I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing, but I really seem to be looking for someone to date, I'm no expert, but I think that just might screw up my DBing, lol.

I just took out Divorce Remedy AGAIN at the library, I haven't started reading it yet, but I thought I need to do something to jump start my poor view of my family life right now, my S is with his mom this week, and once again I miss them terribly.

I know you and your H are not in a good place right now, but I'm not sure if it's any consolation, you have each other under the same roof, you have an oppurtunity to make things better right away, I hope you don't waste your chance. You are a very bright woman, with plenty of knowledge for the rest of us, use that knowledge and advice to improve your sitch.

My W called me yesterday to ask "My advice" on how to clean her pool, I looked something up online and told her, I'm not sure if I should make anything of that or not. I grab at straws don't I?

I'm thinking about my W and I'm thinking about the bank teller I saw on Friday, I'm not sure if she is married, I might ask her tomorrow, how's that for a DB technique? I have not been with another woman for 17 years, but I'm thinking more and more about it, I'm growing tired of being alone.

Sandi, I hope you feel better today. Take care of yourself.

GG

Hey Sweetie (GG),

Yes, you do grab at straws.....but she may actually be throwing one out there to see if you take the bait. Be careful. If you decide to "go dark" or just back off.....you can't be helping her with her pool, etc. WAW's can't have their cake and eat it too! They have to understand that is part of the consequences of leaving the H.

Instead of you looking up the "how to" on-line about the pool, remind her that she will have to take care of it......now. Remember, she removed herself from your care ...by her own free will. I keep telling you this so you will stop feeling responsible for her. Of course, that is up to you.....if you want to keep that type of communication line going or not. I just hate to see men "used" by their WAW. Like I told you before....if you had left her, then I would see it differently. But, as long as you support your child, I don't see that you owe her anything. That may sound curel, but they must wake-up to the reality of it and it won't happen as long as you make her life "easy" for her. You know what I mean by that, don't you? She is not defensless.....don't think that for a minute. Maybe a few decades ago, but not in this day and age. What would she do if you weren't here? She would find a way to get her pool cleaned! So, look at it with wishful eyes....and keep hoping that she will wake up. But sweetie, I don't think she will as long as you are so "available" to her. She is used to having you be her "fixer" and it's time she finds out that you aren't there everytime she crooks her little finger.

That leads me to the other subject of the OW at the bank. Hummmm. Well, just be very careful. You are vulnerable. Very much so! You could rebound so easily. Your ego needs a woman...your emotions needs a woman....and your body needs a woman. But I think your wife still has your heart. So, be careful.

It would scare me to death to get back out in the "dating scene" again. I think to ask for a date is almost like asking to have sex these days! But.....on the other hand, I would like to think there are a few good women still out there in the world. If your wife doesn't come to her senses and you decide to move on with your life....look for that good woman and don't get in a hurry....and for God's sake, don't get into trouble with one (and these days...that "trouble" could be a lot of things). I sound like your mother, don't I? (lol)

I'm sure you have thought of the possibility of getting "involved" with OW and about that time your W comes wakes up to what she has done and wants to work things out with you. What would you do? You know, most people say that is what happens. By the time the WAS comes to their senses, the LBS has moved on to somebody else.

This may be cold hearted in me.....but I'm going to say it anyway. Now, first, I'm for working a M out if possilbe. But, sweetie, life is short and I hate to see anyone hurting and withering away for a WAS that isn't going to share their life with them. If.....If you truly can get over her and fall in love with another woman and be happy, then I would work on trying to move on. However, be sure you are over her before getting into another R. That can be tricky. The heart is deceitful sometimes. Our heart wants to be "in-love". Believe me....I know.

Let me know how it is going.

I am feeling better today. Thanks for asking. Oh (lol) my chair fell over backwards today at the office. The wheels on my desk chair got caught on the edge of the hard mat on the floor in front of my computer and over it went and spilled me out on the floor....hahaha. What a sight I must have been! I wasn't hurt, but, I may not be able to get out of bed in the morning.

Hi Sandi, What an interesting story! There were many parts I could relate to, as I had been sexually shut down and depressed for most of my marriage ( how attractive)! Then at 40 or so, I had this sexual awakening...all the feelings came flooding back...it was if the switch were suddenly placed in the " on" position...and it felt wonderful, but out of control as well.

My sitch differs from yours in that as I tried to get my H aboard, he was resistant ( well that part is the same). I did a lot of reading and found my way to this board. That was 3 yrs ago. What I didn't know was that my H had become entangled with OW at work, first emotionally, and then physically. I don't have too many details ( my choice) but apparently she wa the prototypical " damsel in distress" and he was, at that point, the big man on campus.

But enough about me. The hard part of the journey is doing the work to reconnect to your spouse. Both people, in my mind, have to have the motivation to overcome the past and create something new. What is your H doing to address your newly uncovered desires/needs?

I admire your strength to pull away from the OW, BTW. I know that could not have been easy.

Hi Sweetie,
I didn't really help my W with her pool, I have a real good friend who builds pools, and I think she wanted me to contact him about her problem, either way, she got it fixed and she hasn't contacted me since.

She can stand on her own two feet, always has. Except since our S was born, she has worked 15-20 hours a week, she paid for groceries and his school supplies, I covered the rest. Now she has a nice bank account and I have a house with a 30 year mortgage. Maybe some of that resentment is coming out, and that may be why my eyes are roaming?

I think about the things about her I don't like to rationalize my motives for moving on.
She has left me TWICE in the last 5 years, the 1st time for 4 months. She has a LD, and sex is important to me, not that I'm hard done by, but I always have to initiate.
She lives on the phone, helping every one of her friends and their problems, but won't try to fix our own, even though it affects our S as well.

I know what you mean that I need to be over her before moving on, and I know I'm not. But I am tired of her being in control, I feel it's time for me to step up and take over my future, and if that means a new woman, maybe thats best.
If that wakes her up, so be it.
I am too nice a person, father and mate to sit around and hope she see's the light.

I am for working out a M too or else I wouldn't be here everyday of the week, most days checking out advice multiple times a day, I read, read & read too, but I couldn't wait for years like some of these fine people do, only to realize, their spouse is not coming back. Read my qoute at the end of each post,
"We're here for a good time, not a long time"!
I've believed that saying for many years, why stop now?

Sandi, you are right, the heart is a tricky thing, because I know that later today or tomorrow or the next day, I may think of my W with a halo over her head and then a new R is out of the question. So I'll keep talking to you, for a womans perspective.
My father always taught me that no matter ones profession, if they are older than you, they have experienced life and have knowledge and wisdom greater than yours.

I hope your back is okay, quit drinking at work, lol!

Hey, I like that dad of yours! And, if you had my job...you would drink too, smarty.....lol.

Well, ok, for the serious part. Hummmm......I think you are right. Serious enough for ya? I really do. I think since she has left you twice and you don't know that she wouldn't leave you again.....I would be just like you and think that it is time to start making plans for my life without her. The hard part will be to convince your heart of that. However, if you are at least getting in the mood to "look" at other women, then perhaps your heart will go along with the idea in time. You know, you can always just "date" without getting into a relationship. That is where I think (IMHO) a lot of people mess up is by rushing into things. You have been hurt very badly two times by the same woman, so you deserve to just try to have some fun for a while and enjoy life and not get into anything serious with anyone. Society used to think it was the females that was always wanting to rush into serious relationships and maybe that was true before the female population had their fair chance in the work force, but that is no longer the case with R. In today's world, the male is often times just as anxious to get serious way too quickly as any female. So my advice, again, is to go slowly and be very, very careful. Don't drink and drive.....and don't drink and have sex!

In the meantime, I am here whenever you need to talk. I may need to get your advice also, mister man.

BTW, that must have been some great paying part-time job that your wife had. Maybe it was like that ad I saw in our local classified section today. Wanted: Babysitter in (name of town) immediately......$700 a week. Must be some kind of bad kid for that price! (lol)

Thank you RealJourney.....I appreciate your post. I will have to read your stitch. How are things by now in your M? Well.....I'll catch up.

You asked about my H and what he is doing. Actutally.....nothing. He never has done anything and that is part of the "turn-off" for me. He is laid back and easy going....doesn't get into a big hurry to think, talk, or go into action. I don't mean that sarcastically....that is just the way he is. Totally opposite from me....of course. The books say that is why I was attracted to him. Whatever!

He has always been the "darling of the family"....the good guy in every situation. I, on the other hand, wasn't. In raising our two children, a boy and a girl, I had to be the one that spanked or used any kind of discipline.....not the good guy...heaven forbid. When the kids were little and got sick?.....well, I would hold them down to force the medicine down them......do you think he would do that? Not on your life....and I was a bad mother when I did it. But, that was the difference in how we saw things. I wanted my kids to get well and knew they had to take the bad tasting medicine.....as they got older, however, I was still the one having to give them the discipline.

In reading my story, if you read most of it, you probably saw where I talked about how I was the one that always did the fun things to keep the excitment in the marriage. Women my age, back then, were taught this. We were taught that it was all up to us to keep our husbands interested in us and so they would not turn to other women. We had to make coming home so much "fun" that they wouldn't think of going anywhere else! BS! It didn't keep him from going to his Mama's every day straight from work....before he came home to his sexy young wife and two little kids. (Yes, I was a sexy back then.) I tried everything I thought I could think up. I even wore "costumes" for his homecoming in the evenings. Sometimes, I planned something really farout and would plan for the kids to stay at the grandparents. He would come home and I may be cooking supper with nothing but an apron, beads, and high heels on. Or, I may have shorts and a halter top, and black fishnet hose.....just whatever I could think up, but I never dressed....indecent in front of the children. Sometimes, I would have something very plain on, but I would whisper to him that I wasn't wearing any underwear. (lol) Someone else on the board thought that was their idea.....but I had already tried it about 30 years ago.

Then one day, I had a cute little number on that I thought the kids wouldn't "catch on" but he would .... and then he told me that the kids shouldn't see me dress like that....they wouldn't "understand"....that it would "blow their minds". What the.....? Well, it embarrased the devil out of me, so I stopped.....until a few years later I thought I would get up my courage to try it again. (Oh fool that I was!) One day, nobody was home but the two of us and both the kids were in school. So, I put on a see through sexy nitie and high heel shoes and paraded all around him while he sit at the kitchen table reading. He never said a word amd pretended not to see me. So, I got a cup of coffee and sit down at the opposite end of the table. Finally, he said I should put some clothes on before a neighbor came up to the house and saw me through the window! That was the last time I tried any so-called "costumes" to wear for him to "be sexy".

Oh, I tried all kinds of things.....like after Christmas one year, and the family relatives had gone home (this was after our kids were grown and had left home) and I went in and wrapped myself in gold Christmas tensil that covered just the "right spots". I looked kind of cute if I do say so myself! Than I asked him if he was ready for his gift? Oh well, I could go on for hours about things I used to do. But, he never did one thing to help initiate a thing. His only idea he could come up with was to go out to eat dinner and then go have sex. Big deal! If we got in a "rut" or had a fight....then it was go to another town and go eat dinner and go to a motel and have sex.....same thing....just a different location. Just once, I would have flipped my wig, (as they use to say), if he had just come in with some bright fun idea for us to do! God, we never even with to the movies! All he ever wanted to do was go to his mother's house or to sit and watch TV. Oh, yeah, and have sex all the time whenever I would let him.

For very brief periods of time in our M, we would have a couple as "friends". We never went anywhere or did much except maybe eat there and then have them over somethimes. Of course, we had very little money to spend and that kept us pulled down a lot, but if you have a little imagination.....you can have fun without too much money. He never enjoyed any kind of sports, hobbies, games.....nothing. I used to love everything! But, now, I don't want to do anything.

I guess you can tell that when I start remembering back on our M that it just makes me mad all over again. Sorry, but I know I am resentful. It does still make me mad at times. I don't know what to do about that. I know.....I know....I need to forgive him and all that stuff. I have......or at least I think I have and then it rises up years later....like NOW! I am experiencing anger, lately, that I thought was gone years ago!

You know what gets me? He feels like he has been done so badly. In other words, what I mean by that is that b/c I was "frigid" and did not want to always give him "some" (God, I hate that expression he always used!)....well, anyway, he feels like he was mistreated or he "missed out" on ......whatever. I finally took all I could one night and exploded. I told him, "What are you complaining about? At least YOU always had a climax....that is more than I ever got!" That was mean of me....I know....it was curel...but I had just took that for so many years until I couldn't stand it anymore.

Maybe I had something similiar to what you said. I thought maybe God had finally "fixed" me b/c I had begged Him (God) for years to do something to help me! Anyway, I had surgery and had a hysterectomy and finally was beginning to feel like a human being after 24 years of terrible endrometri.....(oh-- ever how you finish spelling it)(felt like having child birth every month)anyway...... and I thought that I might actually have normal sexual feelings! Yeah! (I thought) Well, guess what happens to Mr. "I want sex 24/7"? He couldn't get it up! And, after about the second time he tried that he couldn't get it up....he just stopped coming to my bedroom.....not a word....nothing. So, how's that for irony? You know what that is called? Impotency? Nope.....it is a male being frigid! Oh, people everywhere have all kinds of sympathy for men that have impotency problems, but give hell to women that are frigid. Well, tell me what the difference is? The only difference in the world is one.....the man can't "fake it" like a woman can. B/C he has to get something up to work and she doesn't.....but inside....where the heart is...it is all the same thing.

There was another problem. All of our married life I begged him to please just go to bed with me and then if he wanted to get up and watch TV all night....that was fine....but I really needed him to hold me and just "talk" to me (that was the bad word I must have used....the "t" word). You see, that was what I needed to fill my emotional needs at the time. But he never, ever, compromised.......never. I even told him that it would lead to sex, if he would just talk to me.......please! But, unless he wanted sex, he never went to bed with me at the same time. Then, we had sex and he got back up. One time I told him to just leave the $2 on the dresser on his way out. He even had the nerve to start telling me "thank you" after we finished and he would start to go back and watch TV. Can you believe it? That made me feel more like a prostitute!

So, if I sound a little more than just "bitter"......I hope you can understand. The last time he touched me intimately was March 1996. I was 49 years old. But guess what? He had stopped even sharing the same bedroom with me back almost ten years before that time in 1996. When I asked him about it, he used some lame excuse that just didn't measure up. I figured he just rather fall asleep on the couch watching TV than to sleep in the same bed with his wife.

After he couldn't "perform" that couple of times, I think he blamed me for that also. You know.....if you don't use it "enough"...you loose it. I heard it for the entire time we were married up until 1996 and frankly my dear....I didn't want to hear it any more, so I didn't talk about it.

Want to hear something else ironic? After he found out about the OM.....he informs me that he CAN still get it up! How interesting. He also tells me how that I have committed adultry in my heart, etc. Well, I have to deal with that, but I feel like if my emotional needs had been met a long time ago.....his physical needs would have been met and than years later maybe I would not have been so desperate for male attention that I would have gotten on line and started flirting with strangers. But, we could play the "blame game" all day and it wouldn't solve our problems. I only said that to say this.....that it took both of us to make this marriage have problems and I refuse to take the entire blame. However....and brace youself for this......he said he has tried as hard as he knows how and nothing seems to satisfy me.....what the.....? (Is he kidding me? This is from a man that hardly goes to work any more?) (Another story another time) And...he doesn't see ANYTHING he has done wrong! So, being a woman, I'm sure you can identify with just how much that makes me want to jump in bed and have sex with him.

Boy oh boy......have I done some major venting or what????

My friend.....which I will answer his response in a moment (lol) said that I told my H something that was very hard on a man. I told him that I did not know if I would ever want to have sex with him again. (ahh......not my friend...my husband.) So, it was during one of our rare talk times and I was crying my eyes out and talking about my great sin with the OM, etc.......anyway, he didn't say anything.

I know the male ego is fragile. Oh boy do I know! I figure I have probably tested my man's ego to the limit. And, I think if he would give you his story it would probably sound somewhat different than my side. Isn't that usually the case? But, it has done a number on me too....don't think it hasn't! I was on so many meds until I didn't know if I was coming or going. I am still on pain medication, but I am not on any anti-depression meds at all. If I can get by without them....I will not go that route again. They work for some people, and I think some folk sould take them, but I don't think I'm one of them.

BYW, Sweetie, what was your original question? (lol)

Wow. In hearing your story... I'm wondering... in the face of all of the wonderful, mighty, good things that you do... because that is what good mothers and good wives do... and of course, you do not get credit for any of it... goodness, goodness... what does your H do, that is good... ?

Corri

Hi Sandi, it's too bad you couldn't think of too much to say,lol.

I know firsthand how the hurts and disappointments in a long standing marriage just keep accumulating. Like in your marriage, my H and I never seemed to be able to get on the same page at the same time. And as much as you want to ditch the resentment, it still creeps in and sometimes take over.

You can't will away resentment. The only cure is to get yourself in a happier space...then the hurts of the past no longer have the same power over you. It really is an amazing thing.

The way my marriage got better is that it really crashed and burned, and we both decided to pick up the pieces and start over. I don't recommend this route,lol, but I seem to have to do things the hard way. Your H is still holding on to hurt and fear, and remains stuck in the old pattern. My guess is that you are going to have to rattle his cage some more at some point.

Currently, are you and H talking about the sex issue? Are you in any form of counseling? Bring us up to date...what is going on now?

Dear Corri,

OMG, I hope I did not come across as sounding like a saint. The Lord and eveyone else on here knows better than that. What does my H do that is good? Well, for one thing he, himself, is a good moral person. I can tell you more things he doesn't do than he does do....lol. He is also a Christian, which if he wasn't he would not have stayed with me....so I am thankful for that also. He is good to me in that when I am sick (with the Fibromyalgia problems, etc.) he helps out around the house. He can cook better than me, wash, everything that involves housekeeping. He would have made a good wife...lol. In fact, he doesn't mind that type of work, but it takes him all day to do what I can do in thirty minutes. He has a forgiving heart...again he would have in order to to live with me all these years. I know he loves me more than anyone else unless it would be my mother and children.

I am so sorry that I left the impression that he was a terrible good for nothing person while I was basking in all the glory. I have been doing a lot of venting the past few weeks....that's for sure. I am resentful and angry and I'm not very nice when I get like that.

I think our town/community sees us as "good people" and they think we have a very successful marriage. Some even think we are the "perfect couple". Well, it would hurt to disappoint them....and they would be, for sure. I hurt my own children so much when I told them that their dad and I were having problems. If you've read my entire story, then you know my grown D read my IM to the OM on line. I wanted to die when she told me. I truly wanted the earth to open up and just swallow me up so I would not have to look into her face. So, no, I'm not a good person. I sinned and fell from God's grace. But, in His mercy He has forgiven me. And my huband......amazingly he has forgiven me also. Which I have told several times before. I am new only to this forum.

I was in a couple of other forums. Went to "Piecing", but a couple from SSM encouraged me to come here, so I think I probably need to be here since that is where our largest problem lies.

I am frustrated and I don't have any desire for my H......and yes, I get mad all over again and vent. I hope that you all can say something to me that will help me. And, if I say things that sound too harsh.....it is b/c of my frustration, resentment, etc., etc., etc. If I sound like I'm being the "good guy" in my stitich.....believe me...I'm not, but I am mostly trying to just "talk it out".

Sandi:

I don't care what I think of you. I don't care what I think about your H. I don't care what I think about your sitch. I don't care what your town thinks about you, your H, or your sitch.

What I care, very much about, is what YOU think of it. Because... that is all that matters.

Corri

Sandi:

Quote:

I am frustrated and I don't have any desire for my H......

STOP. You are frustrated. Yes. You are frustrated that you have not found a workable answer, yes. You are NOT frustrated with your H. STOP blaming HIM for your frustration. K?

Quote:

and yes, I get mad all over again and vent.

Venting is good. Vent here. And say... "Okay, I am VENTING..." so we know.

Quote:

I hope that you all can say something to me that will help me.

If you can hear... you can be helped.

Quote:

And, if I say things that sound too harsh

It is because you feel frustrated. Period. No one's fault.

Quote:

If I sound like I'm being the "good guy" in my stitich.....believe me...I'm not, but I am mostly trying to just "talk it out".

Nod. I get this. I get this.

Now. Vent. One thing.

Another. Talk it Out.

Another. Decide what to do.

Another. Do it.

Another. See how it goes.

Another. Process.

Another. Evaluate.

Another... start again. With another load of laundry. Get it?

Corri

From Sweetie to Mister man? Wow, a fall from graces!

My W only paid for groceries and school supplies, so the money she was making was decent, but how much money do you need to make to cover the grocery bill? How about a mortgage, electric, land line, cell phones, 2 car payments, medical insurance, car insurance, life insurance, cable, water, entertainment, vacations, and now I have child support and the groceries too, etc. etc. etc...you get my drift.

I haven't asked the bank teller out yet, maybe tomorrow, and she could say no! I just changed my message on my answering machine, which was my wifes voice until tonight, a subtle change, but a step forward.

What have you been doing in your sitch? You mentioned don't drink and have sex, that just might be your icebreaker, kill a bottle of red wine and go jump in the sack with him. Whats the worst that can happen? I think it's worth a try, break down inhibitions, break the ice. Look where it got me, lol!

I don't have much news to tell you, or advice to ask, I think I am really feeling betrayed these days. I've only read a couple of chapters of DR this time, I just don't feel up to trying because I'm not getting any signs from my W, she's pleasant but distant, not much to say to each other, like talking to a stranger, I'm just not comfortable with my W anymore.

I hope you figure your R out, I hope you don't sit around and watch another year go by. I hope you go for it. From what you say, your H is stuck in a rut, get him unstuck by whatever means you can. I love reading about couples who figure it out and get a 2nd chance, I know you can do it, and you deserve to spend the rest of your married life in married bliss. Just do it.

Mister Man!

Oh no you haven't fallen either! (lol)

You know, some folk click on here and that is what I have felt with you and I'm glad we can talk to each other.....and maybe, who knows, we might be able to say something to help ourselves, each other.....and perhaps somebody that will read this that we don't even know b/c they don't say anything....they just read and learn.

What have I done positive today? Well, I cooked supper again! Hey.....three times in four days is a record for me compared to what I've been doing this past ten months. Oh Lordy......ten months....it feels like years. (But I don't want to talk about that right now.)

The best positive thing I've done was just a few minutes ago. I realized that out of all the books I've been ordering.....I have not ordered Michelle's book on the SSM. So, I just did that. I guess the reason I didn't at the very beginning of coming to the board was I thought I had probably already read anything that was in the book. Remember, I've been reading books for a long time. If only I would do everything I read.....and if only I could just REMEMBER everything I read! But, I am trying not to give up.....I don't want that kind of R. I am going to try my best to get the right mind set and work on myself.

My H is in a rut.....but I accept the fact that I help place him in that rut. Plus.....remember, I told him to back away and leave me alone, so he is respecting that request. I am sure he is afraid to do much of anything to rock the boat at this point. I know that I have got to be the one to make the first move.....doesn't matter if I have the "feelings" or not. So, I am hoping that with Michelle's book plus all this other stuff I am still reading that I will get what I need in my soul to get "moving" again.

In regard to you changing your phone voice message.....that was a good thing. You should have already done that. I bet when your W calls and gets that message it will get her wheels to spinning. Now, I didn't say that to get you grabbing at straws again....ok? You are moving ahead...."as if" she may not be a part of your life. You are GAL! She is going to see that you are GAL and moving on .....possibly without her. Just keep working on yourself, "sweetie". (lol)

I will be dying to hear if you ask the bank teller out and I will want "details".....lol. BTW, you may want to talk to some guy friend that has been this route....you know, starting the dating scene over again. Another thought here too is that when you are on a date with somebody else (especially the first time)...don't be surprised if your mind keeps trying to go back to your W. Don't be surprised at anything!

Good golly, I've got to get in the bed! I've been on this board too long tonight.

Have a good day tomorrow and let me hear how you are doing.

Originally Posted By: Corri

Guess I didn't answer your question very well. I was just trying to make things more clear.

Originally Posted By: Corri

Ok, well, I don't know that I understand where you are coming from or what it is you are really saying to me.....but I will read your stitch and perhaps that will help me to understand you a little better.

Sandi, I see lots of conflicting messages in some of your post. Probably different goals or feelings at different times in your M.

What is your 6-month goal?

You say you want an intimate R with your H but don�t feel those feelings, but feel like he is your brother. You say your H doesn�t make moves on you and we all know that is difficult to make someone make a move on you.

You told StarvinMarvin to accept the sex his W was offering. Would your H do the same thing, accept what you offered him today?

Several of the men here with LDW's have times when they gave up trying, for at least several months. Any advice to them? I have thought about giving up sex and some other things but know doing so will erode the M some more.

BTW, I see you have been all over the place drive wise and trying things. ^5 for the efforts.

Lou

Hi Lou,

Well, sorry if I sound conflicting in my messages. I don't want to do that. My advice to starvinmarvin to accept what his wife was offering was b/c I was in those same shoes before (of his W's). I was trying my best to give what I could to make (I thought) my husband happy. He wanted more sex and that was what I was trying to do. But, that was not good enough for him (which I found out)....he wanted me to (I guess) be like starvinmarvin and have the "feelings" like him....but you see, I couldn't b/c the feelings he wanted me to have were not in me like they were in him. But, I was TRYING AS BEST AS I COULD GIVE. That is what I was trying to say. The woman is trying her best....but he is saying it is not good enough. I have been there and I think that if she gets this message from him at this time in their M....while she is trying her best to "please" him....she will give up trying at all.

Remember, I have been married almost 42 years, so when I relate back to an experience or phase in my M.....it could have been many years ago and I was somewhat different in the way I am now. But, I did go through that same situation as his W....only my H did not say he would leave if he didn't get better/more sex. He certainly expressed his unhappiness at not receiving enough sex and every single conversation we ever had went back t that issue.....if only we had more sex, then everything would be just lovely. So, that was what I was trying to do. Then, like starvinmarvin....it suddenly wasn't good enough. What was I suppose to think? What is she suppose to think? I can tell you, but it wouldn't be nice.

The other message I have given out is that when the HD H waits on his LD W to make the first move and he decides that he won't have sex until she does make the first moves.....will end up in the boat that I'm in now. The feelings that one should feel toward their sexual partner shuts down. It has been over a decade! I know I keep saying that....but I don't think some people on here get that! It has been eleven years and is there any wonder I feel like my H is just a "relative" now? That is how we have lived together.....like a brother-sister. Can you try to picture what that is like? I have not had a real kiss in eleven years! I don't even know if I remember how to kiss or not!

Here may be where my conflicting message lies (I'm not sure but I'm trying to help here)......you see if my H had continued to initiate the sex.....I would have continued to ML with him. That is not to say that my level of sexual drive would have changed....I don't know. I do know it was on the verge of getting to a very good level when he stopped suddenly and that was very damaging to the MR. In fact, it kind of blew my mind and I thought "how ironic", but since he couldn't perform....I thought it was that reason...so I didn't push the matter. He contined to "blame" me (just like he had for all the other years) even though I didn't realize it at the time b/c I had began to rather enjoy sex and looked forward to it. I even thought I was doing the "dance" that has been discussed in other messages. However I discovered that he told my mother that if we ever has sex again that I would have to be the one to initiate it. BYW, I just found that out a few weeks ago.....after eleven years! So, he was still blaming me even though I had began to enjoy the sex and thought there was some very positive adventure for us on the horizon. Guess I was wrong about that. Still can't get him to talk about that and why he suddenly stopped ML (if it was not b/c he was impotent). You want to know what I really thought? I thought, truly, that he had gotten into such a habit of blaming me for our sexual problems that he naturally fell back on that as a "crutch" instead of admitting he was the one that had a problem.

Ok, enough about that. You asked about a 6 month plan or goal. Oh sweetie......I am just trying to take a day at a time. I have tried to make goals for a week but they haven't been very successful so far. I'm not giving up though.

I don't want anyone to see this as an "excuse" and I'm sure some people will.....but...oh well.... Here is the thing. A person must have a certain amount of energy to have goals and make action plans and work on having desires, etc. Perhaps you don't agree.....but then perhaps you (and I don't mean just you...but eveyone that may read this) have not had the chronic fatigue and chronic pain and it is all you can do to get out of bed and get through the work day....come home and collaspe. I can tell you that it is hell. I also know it could be a lot worse.....I could have cancer, etc., etc., ....that is not where I'm going with this. I am talking about energy. It takes energy to work at a relationship. I have not had that energy.....nor encouragement (until I came here on this board) to deal with the depression and sadness of my situation enough to muster up extra energy that I need to do all of that. Believe me when I say that I can remember having that energy and "working" at the R. It makes a difference. I am not saying this to get sympathy but hopefully understanding. I gather from a couple of responses I received that I was greatly misunderstood about all of that.

So, back to your question about a 6 month plan or goal. No, I haven't made one. I just know that I plan to still be with my H. I made that decision when I chose between him and the OM. You see, that was just a few short weeks ago. They say it takes three months to get over an EA and it hasn't even been that long for me yet. I am still going through the withdrawals from the EA.

Be patient with me. Even if I sound like I'm giving conflicting messages....I don't mean to. Ask questions when I don't make a lot of sense and I will try to clear it up.

Thanks for being a friend. I appreciate it.

Now, talk about me initiating things......whenever there is anyone in the house that says "good-night".....I am the one that goes to him to say it. If anyone in the house gives a little peck on the lips (if you want to consider that a kiss, which I don't)....it is me that does that. I have tried to see if he will make the first move toward me....just in that small area of our R.....but he doesn't. If there is a "hug".....I go to him for the hugs. So, I feel like I have made the first moves.....in these areas......for all these years.

Would my H accept what I offered now after all these years. Yes, I think he would. I think surely he has seen it is either that or nothing. That is what I've tried to tell some of the men here. It doesn't pay off to say that you will either have great sex or no sex at all. It doesn't pay off to say that the W will either initiate the sex or the H isn't going to make the first move at all. Don't stop the sex completely. That is what I'm saying. Work with her and work through it together. Don't do like we have done......don't get to this place. That is the message I have tried to get out there to you all.

I got pissed off at one of the guys b/c he was talking about the hyocrisy he felt about his W......b/c his LD wife was having sex with him (after he threatened to leave the M) but now he wasn't satisfied with her b/c he didn't think she really meant it in her heart. He didn't think she was doing it b/c she REALLY LOVED HIM! To me....she is PROVING her love b/c she is "all over him" as he said and having sex with him. She doesn't want to loose him and she is trying her best to hold on to him and IS proving her love to him. Now, he apparently feels turned-off b/c she is doing this.....or it's not enough....or something. It all goes back to men and women being different and not understanding each other and not talking it out. The difference can be frustrating enough, but when one is HD and one is LD.....oh man....just expect trouble.

Then.....I feel like I get "blasted"......(not from you sweetie) for expressing my own frustrations in my MR. When I try to straighten that out.....I get blasted again. Anyway, there are problems in communicating with some (for me) and I have to work at that harder or give up.....just like in a MR....(lol).

I have been asked, by more than one, to give my story....but then it is like .....well, I must come across the wrong way or something....I don't know. But, I will keep trying as long as you all will keep trying "with" me. BYW, what was that last part of your post? I didn't understand.

Lou,

I don't know what happened on my last post. I had tried to cut & paste some places and I think it ended up getting all out of order. Sorry. I would try to re-do it, but I have got to get to work or I'll be late. Gee, I hope you can make some sense of it all.

I'm glad we talk as well, I need you!
I don't feel I help you as much as you help me, so I'll try harder to give you a man's perspective.

You mentioned you asked your H to back off and give you space. Have you tried to tell him to come closer in subtle ways to begin with? There is not a person on the planet that you know better than this man you have spent 41 years with, don't let another month of your life go by without telling him how much he means to you, tell him you love him, take blame, don't accuse, start right away. You are in the drivers seat, like you said, you might not have the feelings right now, but as soon as you break down that first wall, as soon as you make love again, you may just feel like a lot of time was wasted and you may just feel eventually like you are on a honeymoon again.
Like the workaholic on his death bed doesn't say, "Gee I wish I would have worked a few more hours at the office"!

I am happy to report that I am GAL. I am acting "As If", I'm being nice, cordial, I don't feel like I am myself around her though, laughing, upbeat, smiling etc, I seem to be kind of boring around her? If I do start dating anyone, it won't take long for it to get back to her, she hangs out with 2 of my (our) neighbors. Thats one of the things that bugs me, she'll come hang out for an evening with one of my neighbors (right next door too), then come back and hang around with another neighbor (one that used to be my friends too, no longer). So if they see me with a woman, or my son does, it will go back to her pronto. I guess if I am willing to start dating, then she should find out. Do you think I should tell her first? But if it isn't someone I am willing to continue dating, that might not be a good idea?

I hope I have the time today to leave the office and go ask out the bank teller. I guess if I can sit here and post on this website, I can get my butt out of this chair and drive on over there. It's been a looooong time since I asked a woman out on a date, but i've got game, I'll just do it. I can't tell you to "just do it" and then I turn into a frightened little school girl, now can I?

I'll let you know what happens Sandi.

hiya Sandi,

Wow.. you're really opening up in here. that's great $\:\)$

REALLY interesting that you found out about that thing from your mother, about your husband saying you'd have to initiate.
Good thing is, that all falls in line with what i was guessing/suggesting $;\)$

Question for ya, on something you wrote in another thread:

Quote:

I told him [a long time ago, when we were still having sex] that I would ML anytime he wanted to. I foolishly thought that would please him. It didn't! Instead, he sulled up and acted mad....of course he never talked about any issues we had, so I didn't "know"....I had to "guess".

Why do you think he reacted that way?
Did he feel like you werent "into it" or something?
Do you think you gave him that impression sometimes when you were together?

All that, was just a side question, though.
I'm still waiting on the results of when you're going to ask your husband to hold you for a while $\:D$

I guess i should ask, since it's bad to make assumptions:
At this point... would you LIKE to be held by him for a while?

Sandi2
he wanted me to (I guess) be like starvinmarvin and have the "feelings" like him....but you see, I couldn't b/c the feelings he wanted me to have were not in me like they were in him.
True, two different spouses will see/feel things differently. There ideally should be some overlap/things in common.

I was TRYING AS BEST AS I COULD GIVE. That is what I was trying to say. The woman is trying her best....but he is saying it is not good enough.
I will put myself in your H and marvin�s shoes, which I am sort of anyway.

It helps to understand the W is doing the best she can and not take her LD extremely personal. I did that since 1981 and up to a few years ago. Some times I can forge through my perception of my W/BB�s lack of desire and sometimes her lack of desire comes across as me being a pest, an un caring H, a selfish sexaholic. The last feeling is difficult to overcome. The first feeling (pest) isn�t too much fun either. It takes a lot of testestosterone to get past the feelings that I am imposing one of my desires on her and disregarding her feelings or needs.

when I relate back to an experience or phase in my M.....it could have been many years ago and I was somewhat different in the way I am now.
In a communications class in college, one lesson was �no matter what you say to counter something hurtful you said to someone in the past, the feelings it caused at the time can not be un done. They can be coated over so a better shade/feeling is coupled with the original feeling.

Some say forget the past. In reality you can�t forget the past but like cold pizza, you can warm it up and make it more palatable.

He certainly expressed his unhappiness at not receiving enough sex and every single conversation we ever had went back t that issue.....if only we had more sex.
More sex was the outer layer of the issue/onion. More sex back then would have made that layer of the onion less of a problem. What he and many people don�t realize there are other layers of the relationship onion. You also had your layers of your own onion to work with your H may not have been aware of.

Then, like starvinmarvin....it suddenly wasn't good enough. What was I suppose to think? What is she suppose to think? I can tell you, but it wouldn't be nice.
That is where I am too sometimes. For BB sex is something she would rather give up. Asks me why I want sex because all normal guys my age have ED????? I know better. At the time she said that, it really hurt. Now I know her opinion was all bunk and I can view myself as having an ability that some women would value highly.

What were you supposed to think?? I don�t know Sandi2. I know it takes emotional energy to keep trying to get something I want from someone that doesn�t get much out of the encounter. For me that is difficult mental position/frustrating feeling for me. I suppose your H may or may not have felt something similar.

What is the W supposed to feel/think after agreeing to sex and the H backs off. Hurt, resentment, abandonment, frustrated I suppose.

Here is what I experienced and how it went down for me. I with draw because it is almost impossible to get what I want w/o doing something extra. I give 80% and get 20%. BB sees the 20% I didn�t give her.

BTW, sometimes BB tells me she will have sex with me any time I want. IRL, �anytime I want to� has conditions as to time, outside influences, If �A� �B� �C� �D� and some other things have to be in place/the right time, and �E� �F� and �G� cant be in the picture for sex to happen to satisfy her comfort level.

Last night it was day 3 of me doing the friendly H things, spending most of the day with her, going to the pet store with her, back rubs, hair teases, just cuddling in bed for 2 days prior, touching during the day, etc so I had a plan to do the deed.

Then about 8PM it got Smokey (forest fires 500 miles away), BB took an allergy med, got sleepy, fell asleep on my lap and I could tell it wasn�t a good time for her to have sex. Yes I stayed up till 2AM to not thin about the disappointment/frustrations I felt.

So, tell me the not too nice thoughts you had. I won�t personalize them. They are your thoughts, about your situation. This forum is an exchange medium. I say How I feel/think/act, you can do the same.

The other message I have given out is that when the HD H waits on his LD W to make the first move and he decides that he won't have sex until she does make the first moves.....will end up in the boat that I'm in now.
Yes, I agree. I saw the no sex turn into A�s. I don�t want that to happen so I do the deed and relate non-sexual affection/attention acts even if I have reservations.

In the middle of our last sexual encounter, BB gave me an item on her list of bad H traits she sees in me. I felt like quitting in the middle of the encounter but said something to let her know what she was saying was not appropriate at that monument. I carried on in the middle of our 20 minuets of physical sexual and emotional touching because I need it and our R needed it. I thought about quitting, but I didn�t. And some women think a guy wants sex no matter how they disrespect him??? Sheesh> It is tough to keep it up and forge through some of my resentment/guilt/ frustrating feelings. Sex is more than getting off for most guys. It is about connecting and having some adult playtime. It is also about experiencing my own chemical fix. I am a junkie in some ways. A good �O� really is a fine thing to experience IMHO.

The feelings that one should feel toward their sexual partner shuts down. It has been over a decade! I know I keep saying that....but I don't think some people on here get that! It has been eleven years and is there any wonder I feel like my H is just a "relative" now? That is how we have lived together.....like a brother-sister. Can you try to picture what that is like?
I get the message loud and clear.

On a personal not it is difficult to remain emotionally detached when I read post like yours or anyone�s that have gone more than several months w/o sex happening. Sometimes I want the spouse�s e-mail so I can help them get over the sexual dead end they are stuck in. I know I really can�t do that much IRL so I sit and read in a wishing mode.

)......you see if my H had continued to initiate the sex.....I would have continued to ML with him.
BB has said about the same thing but I don�t see or feel any ML in her actions. It is giving sex to get her back and hair rubbed and so I don�t detach more from the R. BB said she doesn�t have any SD and it died in 1981.

If I waited for BB to initiate it might happen 2X a year. Last time was a couple of years ago because I was almost totally detached. The event I remember well. She came to my bed (her choice to sleep alone) and wanted me to hold her (outward actions of hers) but I knew she was initiating so I had sex with her. It was mostly me doing and her accepting, but Hay, t was an offer and I wasn�t going to hurt her feelings anymore than they were hurt.

That is not to say that my level of sexual drive would have changed....
I don�t expect B SD to change, maybe her willingness a little.

. I do know it was on the verge of getting to a very good level when he stopped suddenly and that was very damaging to the MR.
((((Sandi2)))) I am sorry to hear that it didn�t work out so you might have both been happier. Damage and improvements usually happen slowly.

I suspect you changing and him accepting the changes for the betterment of the M would have had its ups and downs. One thing or one time, is usually followed by up and down movements. Just saying I don�t see too many �Magic bullets� solving most of a couples R problems.

but since he couldn't perform....I thought it was that reason...so I didn't push the matter.
It could have been depression/frustration affecting his ability to perform. Some days I am rock hard even if BB talks her "men are pigs language." Other days some understanding and a connecting touch from BB are required to get into the mood. I suspect that happens to your H too.

He continued to "blame" me (just like he had for all the other years) even though I didn't realize it at the time b/c I had began to rather enjoy sex and looked forward to it.
Yes, people blame what they can see or think is the reason something happened. My personal opinion is many times we never see or comprehend why something happens or doesn�t happen past the 50th. percentile. One person at church prays for rain, someone else prays for sunshine. It was partly cloudy with intermittent showers. Both say it was like that due to prayer; they got half of what they wanted. My opinion is it happened, why put a cause and effect into the picture. My point is things happen in R�s but maybe we will never know why. We will see thing that influence R�s one way or the other, but �A� caused �B� is sometimes elusive.

However I discovered that he told my mother that if we ever have sex again that I would have to be the one to initiate it. BYW
So tell him you found out, but not from which person and say you are ready to have some fun �WITH HIM�, for the good of the M. Tough to do, I know, BTDT. Might work, might not work.

. I have tried to make goals for a week but they haven't been very successful so far.
That is normal, not being successful at reaching a goal. Success is doing the baby steps even it the results are not perfect or even that good sometimes.

A person must have a certain amount of energy to have goals and make action plans and work on having desires, etc. Perhaps you don't agree.....but then perhaps you
Ding, ding, and ding. The lady is normal and wins the prize. BTW, I run out of that type of energy too. That is behind some of my thoughts of giving up sex, at least for a while.

. It takes energy to work at a relationship. I have not had that energy.....nor encouragement (until I came here on this board) to deal with the depression and sadness of my situation enough to muster up extra energy that I need to do all of that.
Hopefully the board will give you some motivational ideas. You need to turn those ideas into actions.

My screen ID is DIY=Do it yourself, which relates to me coming here, reading books, and going to counseling, but eventually I have to do it myself. No one can do it for me.

About your fibromyalgia, there was a book recommended by Screen name KML real name=Ellie, who is a Dr. I will keep looking for the book title in one of her posts. It might be helpful.

. They say it takes three months to get over an EA and it hasn't even been that long for me yet. I am still going through the withdrawals from the EA.
Three months for some people, yes, but from what I have seen on some forums, I think it takes longer.

Be patient with me. Even if I sound like I'm giving conflicting messages....I don't mean to. Ask questions when I don't make a lot of sense and I will try to clear it up.
Sometimes inserting dates and events leading to those feelings help the flow of a person�s story a bit more logical. We all know there is an ebb and flow to feelings/actions.

If anyone in the house gives a little peck on the lips�...it is me that does that. I have tried to see if he will make the first move toward me....just in that small area of our R.....but he doesn't. If there is a "hug".....I go to him for the hugs. So, I feel like I have made the first moves.....in these areas......for all these years.
Well, change the gender and that sounds like here.

It doesn't pay off to say that the W will either initiate the sex or the H isn't going to make the first move at all. Don't stop the sex completely. That is what I'm saying. Work with her and work through it together.
I agree, the down side has large pitfalls.

Work with her??? I think �I� am. I don�t think the pay off is that great but better than the consequences if I don�t. I would like to increase the pay off for both of us. I don�t see that happening much.

Don't do like we have done......don't get to this place. That is the message I have tried to get out there to you all.
We have seen a situation like that unfold with chocolate eyes thread. Good experience to avoid.

He didn't think she was doing it b/c she REALLY LOVED HIM! To me....she is PROVING her love b/c she is "all over him" as he said and having sex with him. She doesn't want to loose him and she is trying her best to hold on to him and IS proving her love to him.
Hum????? Love him as in really likes him or loves him because she doesn�t want to be alone???? That is two different reasons.

I like to feel liked and needed. I don�t really get turned on by a W not liking me that much but thinks she has to do enough to keep me from leaving. I don�t feel like hanging around because I am something she needs to survive but really isn't happy with me as a person. I don�t like feeling second or fourth best, but better than a lesser person/man/something she would rather be doing. I have been 6th (after 3 dogs and 2 cats) on my W list of things she likes. I hope that makes sense.

Would my H accept what I offered now after all these years? Yes, I think he would. I think surely he has seen it is either that or nothing.
Well, do something small. Something he wants or is comfortable with. A hug and then a longer hug. Ask him to hold you tighter or say, �what is your favorite way to hug me?�

Come up behind him and put your arms around him a couple of times gradually touching him more or in more sensual places. Pull out his shirt and touch some skin, eventually touch his nipples. Works for me, it might work on him.

Then.....I feel like I get "blasted"......(not from you sweetie) for expressing my own frustrations in my MR. When I try to straighten that out.....I get blasted again. Anyway, there are problems in communicating with some (for me) and I have to work at that harder or give up.....just like in a MR....(lol).

I have been asked, by more than one, to give my story....but then it is like .....well, I must come across the wrong way or something....
Everyone gets blasted Sandi2. It is one way to get you to see how you miss some good points your H has and to avoid saying �Oh you poor thing! You�re your H is an a$$ and deserves to be shot. It is to get you to do what you can.

Some people come here and basically ask, �how can I fix my spouse? Well you can�t fix anyone but your self. You can do some things that make some decisions for your spouse easier or more difficult, that is about it.

To me a good friend tells me my zipper is down when it is down. That is what we do here because it is more in line with solving a problem.

If anyone thinks the posters are hard on anyone, just go back 3 years and read Cemar�s threads. He has had more good advice offered to him than anyone on the forum. He still comes here with the same problems. People still try to help him. Some gave up on him.

This is the most helpful, well-read forum I have ever encountered. If someone swings a stick at you, it is to help you see what you can do to improve your situation.

General anger at someone? I saw it a few times but I saw the people patch things up and some bonds eventually strengthened and solid R develop.

It is Smokey again today and that means BB will load up on allergy pills, be tired, and dried out. I am still thinking about doing the naked dance with her.

:Lou with a sun flower: Yes-no, yes-no, yes-no,�� Really what happens thought the day and much later influences my actions.

Kml latest post http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1186777

Lou

sandi2:

I can relate to how your husband feels. What I think has been happening for many years now in your marriage is that he has shut down, he has made himself vulnerable to you for many years, and to stop the hurt, he has had to STOP persuing you. For many years he loved you AND DESIRED you. For most of that time, you at best, only LOVED him. SHort of adultery, NOTHING hurts a man as much as this, NOTHING. He probably spent many years trying to win back your DESIRE, and it never came. So to stop the PAIN of bashing his head against that rock, he stopped pursuing you. In some books, they even recommend that the HD spouse see that part of their marriage as DEAD, and to mourn its loss, and to STOP the hurt, to go on with life without it. A marriage is only good if the differences in sexual deisre are not great. SO he is trying to BURY his desire to match yours, but this means he must stop making himself vulnerable to you, which leads minimizing the relationship.

So, to fis the marriage, all you have to do is ask this question and come up with a definite answer:

What can your husband do to meet your needs that will cause you to have a strong sexual desire for him? No maybes here, only what will definitely work.

Cemar said
He probably spent many years trying to win back your DESIRE, and it never came. So to stop the PAIN of bashing his head against that rock, he stopped pursuing you. In some books, they even recommend that the HD spouse see that part of their marriage as DEAD, and to mourn its loss, and to STOP the hurt, to go on with life without it.
OK Cemar, I agree with you. I also see this is what got Choc's M in trouble.

What can your husband do to meet your needs that will cause you to have a strong sexual desire for him?
That is a fair question Sandi2, the answers are not easy for your H and if he would do those things, will it be enough for you to desire him sexually. This is an ideal situation.

Maybe you two need to work on a less ideal plane. I am. An improvement is an improvement/better than what was. I wish almost perfection was a reality. I don�t think it will happen perfectly. Know any body where it would be almost perfection? I am listening.

Lou

I think part of sandi's problem, is that she doesnt know the answer. Or maybe she does (words of appreciation,etc), but doesnt know how to get her husband to go along with it.

Hey Lou,

one word for you:

CLARATIN!

(non-drowsy allergy pill $;\)$ )

CLARATIN!

Well some of those meds raise blood pressure and my W wants to feel sleepy. She naps during the day and doesn't sleep soundly at night like I do. Sometimes my breathing wakes her up. The dog snores, that wakes her up. A car stops on the gravel road, that wakes her up. The news paper is thrown against the storm door, that wakes her up.

We did the separate bedrooms for 5+ years and the R went down hill. I got more and more checking out of the M feelings so pushed the marital bed concept for more than 3 years now.

Sometimes I wonder if being Mr. Sandi2 is a workable alternative,,,,,, No that won't work either.

Compromise and make adjustments till I find something that works, that is my MO for now.

Thanks for the CLARATIN idea. BB was a med nurse so anything I suggest has to be much better than what she prefers at the present time. Top her top in meds, isn�t likely to happen. I voice my concerns to BB but that is about it.

Lou

yik.
So what you're really saying is: she chose the meds to avoid having sex with you :-/

sounds like she suffers from major anxiety. i'm sorry.
obvious suggestions here:
get "double-paned" windows for the bedroom, and lock the dog up downstairs/other side of house ;-) but also... wonder why she's so nervous

Quote:

Compromise and make adjustments till I find something that works, that is my MO for now.

Good for you $\:\)$ you're a good husband.

So what you're really saying is: she chose the meds to avoid having sex with you :-/
No. she chose the med so she can get to sleep because sleep is much more important than sex. It has been that way for a long time and is a common event in LDW's behaviors.

get "double-paned" windows for the bedroom, and lock the dog up downstairs/other side of house ;-)
I have double-paned windows with storm windows and live on a country road.

I understand the, dog sleep somewhere else than near her.

What are you? Some kind of animal killer/hater?

That is what BB might say.

No, her animals are more important than most people to her. She wants then all on her bed. I enforced the one animal on the bed rule as a compromise. When she slept in the other bedroom w/o me, she had 3 dogs and 2 cats in bed with her some nights.

She complained they kept her awake but wouldn't think of making them sleep on the floor except on a few occasions when the animals snapped at each other several times.

In the 5 years we slept in different rooms, I think she booted someone out about 2-3 times.

Her standard answer to someone allergic to pets is to have the SO-allergic person, move out or do the best they can using allergy shots and meds. First priority is the R of the pet lover and the pet.

Now, could I force BB to give up her pets or say the M is over? Maybe, but it wouldn't be a M if that happened. It would marital combat.

Lou

Hey you go!..... sweetie!

But before you decide about if you tell your wife or let her find out from the neighbors....why don't you re-read the chapter of the last resort technique in Michelle's DR book. B/c IMHO, it should all tie in together. If you have come to this point in your life that you are ready to move on and are on the verge of asking a lady out on a date....then I think you are ready for the LRT. You have nothing else to loose, right? Tell her that you had hoped that she would come back and make a home for the the three of you and work the marriage problems out together. However, if she doesn't feel that she can do that, then you have decided to move on and make the best out of your life. Tell her that you will always be a part of your son's life and that you wish the best for her, but that you plan to have have a life that includes making new friends....which, of course, will include dating other women. (I'm so sorry sweetie, but for the life of me, I can't remember right now if you told me that she has already filed for D or not.....it's been a long day!)anyway....if she hasn't....maybe that should be your next suggestion....or the first, whichever will lead you into the conversation the easiest. But, again I encourage you to read that chapter on the LRT. Her reaction may tell you a lot when you give her this news. If she hasn't already filed for D and you think it would even be more effective, you may even suggest that YOU go ahead and file so that the two of you can get on with living. You might practice what you will say to her, b/c you will need to choose your wording carefully. Be very sweet when you talk to her....sincere and soft spoken. If somehow, you could still make her feel kind of "special", (but that in her heart she knows she has brought this all on herself?)....that will hit the right spot to be effective. I once saw a show where the divorced husband went to his first wife to tell her he was going to get married again and that he wanted to be the one to tell her before she heard it from somebody else.....after all, he said, she was his first love and owed it to her. Now, that would get a girl in the heart! How could she be mad at him after he told her something sweet like that? The only person she could be mad at would be herself. Oh, and be prepared for the possiblility of tears. However, don't let her toy with you and "work" you. Keep your resolve and don't melt right then and there.

I don't understand this visiting the neighbors that live on each side of you. Now, are these neighbors...."couples" or just women.....or single men? Was she close friends and visiting them all the time BEFORE the separation? If not, that tells me she is wanting to make you jealous or else she is trying to get information about you from them. If they were "that" close, why doesn't she just call them on the phone? Why does she want to make her presence over there known? (Hummmmm) Most women would not want to be in the neighborhood of the man they were S from.

Well, if there is a "spark" left, you will find out when she discovers that you are going to start dating again. Be careful about your son. Depending on his maturity level, (sorry, can't remember how old you said he was....oh God! I'm awful today.) anyway, sweetie, I think you may owe it to him...unless he is just too small to understand, (and I think I do remember he isn't that small), to explain to him that you are going to make new friends, etc., but that he will always be the MOST important person ever.....and that he will come first before anyone and that he can always count on you to be there for him.....no matter what the future for you or his mom holds. Don't wait for him to get his mother's side of the story....that wouldn't be good. And, don't assume he already knows all of what I just said....I'm sure he does, but boys need to hear that from their dad's.

Okay.....back to me....ugh! No, I've not told him I want him to draw closer. I have told him that even if he can't see what I'm doing....that I am working very hard to get through some things so that I can work toward a better marriage with him. I told him that I was still going through withdrawal from the OM, but that it is getting better. I think he is resenting me spending too much time back here on this board every night....but I tried to explain to him that it is my therapy since we are not seeing a C (which he refused to go see). I told him I didn't know if we could work through everything WITHOUT a C. He knows I have bought a lot of books b/c he is still being very nosey! I even asked him if he was still checking out the internet to see every place I've been and if he had read my posts here on the board. He admitted he had and it made me mad. I know I hurt his trust, but I don't like him reading what I place on the board. (He seemed to think it was all very boring!) It is like I have no privacy at all and that is very important to me....always has been. I rebell big time when I think he is snooping! I would not be surprised to find out that he is still going through all my dresser drawers, papers, books, whatever he thinks he can find that I might place something.

It is going to take a long time, I'm afraid, to overcome the damage that has been done. But, we will, I really believe that. And.....yes, I know that most of it will depend on me and that right now I am my own worst enemy. Last night, I felt so tired and just plain "weary" of it all and thought maybe I should do like it was suggested to me and take a day or two away and stop thinking about the R and the lack of sex, etc. Just get my mind on something else.

I'll be okay....it's just going to take time. But, if I know I've got friends like you in my corner.....I won't give up and I'll keep on until I get there.

Talk to you later.

Hi back at ya.....

(Why do you think he reacted that way?
Did he feel like you werent "into it" or something?
Do you think you gave him that impression sometimes when you were together?)

Beats the heck out of me! As I've said, he never would talk about anything like I would try to get him to do. That is why a lot of it was "guess work" on my part. But, he admitted that to agree to have sex whenever he wanted it....just wasn't "good enough" for him. That was before I even had a chance to "show" him what I was talking about. So, I felt like the rug had been pulled out from under me. I was shocked at him acting like he did b/c I truly thought he would be happy to know he did not have to dread being "rejected" (like he always said he was!) anymore. BTW, he was not always rejected!

No, I've not done much more toward anything else right now. I've not asked him to hold me.....and to tell you the truth...I don't know if I at that point of wanting him to. That is what is driving me crazy and making me ask myself these questions. Why? Why? Why? Why can't I want him to?

Good Lord! That woman need professional help. I'm not kidding! I am a big animal lover, but that is not normal.

Good Lord! That woman needs professional help. I'm not kidding! I am a big animal lover, but that is not normal.

Quote:

He has always been the "darling of the family"....the good guy in every situation. I, on the other hand, wasn't. In raising our two children, a boy and a girl, I had to be the one that spanked or used any kind of discipline.....not the good guy...heaven forbid. When the kids were little and got sick?.....well, I would hold them down to force the medicine down them......do you think he would do that? Not on your life....and I was a bad mother when I did it. But, that was the difference in how we saw things. I wanted my kids to get well and knew they had to take the bad tasting medicine.....as they got older, however, I was still the one having to give them the discipline.

In reading my story, if you read most of it, you probably saw where I talked about how I was the one that always did the fun things to keep the excitment in the marriage. Women my age, back then, were taught this. We were taught that it was all up to us to keep our husbands interested in us and so they would not turn to other women. We had to make coming home so much "fun" that they wouldn't think of going anywhere else! BS! It didn't keep him from going to his Mama's every day straight from work....before he came home to his sexy young wife and two little kids. (Yes, I was a sexy back then.) I tried everything I thought I could think up. I even wore "costumes" for his homecoming in the evenings. Sometimes, I planned something really farout and would plan for the kids to stay at the grandparents. He would come home and I may be cooking supper with nothing but an apron, beads, and high heels on. Or, I may have shorts and a halter top, and black fishnet hose.....just whatever I could think up, but I never dressed....indecent in front of the children. Sometimes, I would have something very plain on, but I would whisper to him that I wasn't wearing any underwear. (lol) Someone else on the board thought that was their idea.....but I had already tried it about 30 years ago.

Then one day, I had a cute little number on that I thought the kids wouldn't "catch on" but he would .... and then he told me that the kids shouldn't see me dress like that....they wouldn't "understand"....that it would "blow their minds". What the.....? Well, it embarrased the devil out of me, so I stopped.....until a few years later I thought I would get up my courage to try it again. (Oh fool that I was!) One day, nobody was home but the two of us and both the kids were in school. So, I put on a see through sexy nitie and high heel shoes and paraded all around him while he sit at the kitchen table reading. He never said a word amd pretended not to see me. So, I got a cup of coffee and sit down at the opposite end of the table. Finally, he said I should put some clothes on before a neighbor came up to the house and saw me through the window! That was the last time I tried any so-called "costumes" to wear for him to "be sexy".

Oh, I tried all kinds of things.....like after Christmas one year, and the family relatives had gone home (this was after our kids were grown and had left home) and I went in and wrapped myself in gold Christmas tensil that covered just the "right spots". I looked kind of cute if I do say so myself! Than I asked him if he was ready for his gift? Oh well, I could go on for hours about things I used to do. But, he never did one thing to help initiate a thing. His only idea he could come up with was to go out to eat dinner and then go have sex. Big deal! If we got in a "rut" or had a fight....then it was go to another town and go eat dinner and go to a motel and have sex.....same thing....just a different location. Just once, I would have flipped my wig, (as they use to say), if he had just come in with some bright fun idea for us to do! God, we never even with to the movies! All he ever wanted to do was go to his mother's house or to sit and watch TV. Oh, yeah, and have sex all the time whenever I would let him.

For very brief periods of time in our M, we would have a couple as "friends". We never went anywhere or did much except maybe eat there and then have them over somethimes. Of course, we had very little money to spend and that kept us pulled down a lot, but if you have a little imagination.....you can have fun without too much money. He never enjoyed any kind of sports, hobbies, games.....nothing. I used to love everything! But, now, I don't want to do anything.

I guess you can tell that when I start remembering back on our M that it just makes me mad all over again. Sorry, but I know I am resentful. It does still make me mad at times. I don't know what to do about that. I know.....I know....I need to forgive him and all that stuff. I have......or at least I think I have and then it rises up years later....like NOW! I am experiencing anger, lately, that I thought was gone years ago!

You know what gets me? He feels like he has been done so badly. In other words, what I mean by that is that b/c I was "frigid" and did not want to always give him "some" (God, I hate that expression he always used!)....well, anyway, he feels like he was mistreated or he "missed out" on ......whatever. I finally took all I could one night and exploded. I told him, "What are you complaining about? At least YOU always had a climax....that is more than I ever got!" That was mean of me....I know....it was curel...but I had just took that for so many years until I couldn't stand it anymore.

Maybe I had something similiar to what you said. I thought maybe God had finally "fixed" me b/c I had begged Him (God) for years to do something to help me! Anyway, I had surgery and had a hysterectomy and finally was beginning to feel like a human being after 24 years of terrible endrometri.....(oh-- ever how you finish spelling it)(felt like having child birth every month)anyway...... and I thought that I might actually have normal sexual feelings! Yeah! (I thought) Well, guess what happens to Mr. "I want sex 24/7"? He couldn't get it up! And, after about the second time he tried that he couldn't get it up....he just stopped coming to my bedroom.....not a word....nothing. So, how's that for irony? You know what that is called? Impotency? Nope.....it is a male being frigid! Oh, people everywhere have all kinds of sympathy for men that have impotency problems, but give hell to women that are frigid. Well, tell me what the difference is? The only difference in the world is one.....the man can't "fake it" like a woman can. B/C he has to get something up to work and she doesn't.....but inside....where the heart is...it is all the same thing.

There was another problem. All of our married life I begged him to please just go to bed with me and then if he wanted to get up and watch TV all night....that was fine....but I really needed him to hold me and just "talk" to me (that was the bad word I must have used....the "t" word). You see, that was what I needed to fill my emotional needs at the time. But he never, ever, compromised.......never. I even told him that it would lead to sex, if he would just talk to me.......please! But, unless he wanted sex, he never went to bed with me at the same time. Then, we had sex and he got back up. One time I told him to just leave the $2 on the dresser on his way out. He even had the nerve to start telling me "thank you" after we finished and he would start to go back and watch TV. Can you believe it? That made me feel more like a prostitute!

So, if I sound a little more than just "bitter"......I hope you can understand. The last time he touched me intimately was March 1996. I was 49 years old. But guess what? He had stopped even sharing the same bedroom with me back almost ten years before that time in 1996. When I asked him about it, he used some lame excuse that just didn't measure up. I figured he just rather fall asleep on the couch watching TV than to sleep in the same bed with his wife.

After he couldn't "perform" that couple of times, I think he blamed me for that also. You know.....if you don't use it "enough"...you loose it. I heard it for the entire time we were married up until 1996 and frankly my dear....I didn't want to hear it any more, so I didn't talk about it.

Want to hear something else ironic? After he found out about the OM.....he informs me that he CAN still get it up! How interesting. He also tells me how that I have committed adultry in my heart, etc. Well, I have to deal with that, but I feel like if my emotional needs had been met a long time ago.....his physical needs would have been met and than years later maybe I would not have been so desperate for male attention that I would have gotten on line and started flirting with strangers. But, we could play the "blame game" all day and it wouldn't solve our problems. I only said that to say this.....that it took both of us to make this marriage have problems and I refuse to take the entire blame. However....and brace youself for this......he said he has tried as hard as he knows how and nothing seems to satisfy me.....what the.....? (Is he kidding me? This is from a man that hardly goes to work any more?) (Another story another time) And...he doesn't see ANYTHING he has done wrong! So, being a woman, I'm sure you can identify with just how much that makes me want to jump in bed and have sex with him.

Oh my gosh, Sandi...I do not even know what to say after reading all that. Holy crap, woman....on one hand I want to smack your husband and, God forgive me, on the other I want to tell you to run. There is just no way the way you have lived is right...you've put your pride down so many times...this kind of thing makes me angry with God. How can it be okay for you to make so many sacrifices while your husband does nothing? Is he not held to the same standards in God's eyes? I am of absolutely no help to you. If I were you I would have been gone. What are you supposed to do? I hope to hell someone in this forum has the answer. To have lived this way for so long...and only had the recent thing with the online guy, is a miracle in itself. I am not familiar with this type of longstanding issue. I sincerely hope these folks here can help you. I'd have raised the roof years ago and told him to get out. You are a better woman than I am. And your husband is an incorrigible snot.

Amy

Dear Cemar2, DIY, and DomR......

My heart is breaking b/c you are right. I think you are abosolutley correct about my husband. Oh God!

I read your post about 6:30 tonight and It is almost four hours later and I'm still thinking about it.

My H does love me. He has always adored me! He doesn't know how to be romantic and he doesn't have brain storm ideas of how to have fun evenings, but my God...the man is crazy about me and always has been. DomR, you are right too, b/c I don't know the answer to what was asked me. That is what is killing me. I don't know what my H can do to or if there is anything he CAN do at this point in time to change anything. One day, I try to think positive and tell myself everything will get better in time, and then the next day, I have serious doubts that it will get better and that I will have to settle for this R from now on. My friend, imLin, said that I made my H what he is today. Man oh man! That was hard to swallow. I had to think about that one a long time.

At the risk of repeating myself, and if you all don't mind me just kind of talking out loud to myself for a minute or two....the emotional breakdown came immediately after our wedding when I learned that he could not talk to me. By that I mean he just did not know how to express his feelings into words. Well, feelings was what I wanted to talk about all the time. Also, immediately after the wedding night, we had problems.....as I have already explained. But every time we ever talked about anything.....no matter what the subject may have been at the beginning...it always ended up being that if only I would wanted to have sex more....then everything would be fine. Over the years, my emotional needs went unfullfilled while his sexual needs were not being met. My sexual needs were not being met either, but I really did not realize it at the time and would just fantasize mine away. I can look back and see where I filled my head with unrealistic images of TV and romanitc novel characters that I compared my H to.....and I don't even know if I had the good sense to realize what I was doing. I don't think I truly expected HIM to be like they were in the movies, etc., b/c I knew he wasn't going to be.....but I just dreamed of being in love with somebody like them. In my fantasizing or "dreaming"....I also had to become somebody else just as great as the hero was. I suppose a C would say that I led a "double" life over the years.....my "real life" and then the "make believe life" that only played out in my mind. I never discussed this with another living person b/c I was afraid they would think I was insane. Then just a couple of months ago, I found a book in the local Christian book store where a brave woman wrote the truth.......and it was as though I was reading my own life. I cried and cried b/c I kept thinking....."Oh God, if only I had had this book when I first got married...before I did so much damage to my R." The make-believe affairs that women have in their minds are very serious. The EA we women have are very serious! It does a lot of damage to our H's and to ourselves.

I don't know why I am going back over all of this again......I just feel so....empty and hurt and like I have ruined a perfectly good man that would have been a great husband if I had had enough sense to know what to do with him. If I had been more mature and if I had been a better wife.....I always knew he deserved much better than me!

Yes, I have told of my pain and frustration where he is concerned, but I never failed to mention that he was a good person or that I knew he loved me. That is or never has been the problem. What can he do now? I don't know......I sincerly don't know! It scares me to death. I am so afraid that I have completely fallen out of love with him. When I gave him that speech....you know which one....about being out of love...he did not accept it. He said he did not believe in falling out of love. Well, I do. I think it happens all the time. People on this board are the results of folks falling out of love. I didn't say the ones on here are to blame......I am just saying it does happen....IMO. I think we are capable of "killing" the love. I'm talking about the sexual love. I don't know if I can change or not. I am waiting for the book I ordered last night. I ordered Michelle's SSM. So, I am praying that it will be just what I need to do the job.

Some of you have gotten tired of hearing me say that I "want" to love my H. You think if I want to badly enough that I will do something about it. Maybe you are right. Perhaps I just don't want it badly enough. As you can see, I am very down tonight. My heart is heavy and I am responsible for a lot of pain in another person's life. However, I still refuse to take 100% of the blame and I still say it took both of us to break down the R and to build up the walls around us. Not that that does any good to proclaim that.....I'm just making a statement.

Do I "want" him to hold me? I don't know. I honestly don't know. There were so many nights I cried to be held by him. I was so lonely and yet I felt that he "chose" to sleep on the living room couch in front of a television rather than go to bed at a normal bedtime with his wife. Perhaps he never saw "my side" of the things I tried so despartely to talk to him about over 41 years....but then he never picked up a book to read or go talk to a pastor or see a C either.

After talking like this I was asked what were the good things about him....so then I tried to explain what his good traits were. Anyway, we both have good traits and we both have bad traits....we are just human like everybody else. I'm not trying to make myself look any better or any worse than him. I am like the rest of you all are....trying to find answers, if possible, and trying to make my life better.

One of you asked me if I just went through the motions of having sex or did I make love. I did love my H. I tried to relate that through my love making but perhaps I did not do a very good job. Like BB, my H feels that I had to have everything around me "perfect" in order to have sex. I didn't see it that way at all......so there you go....two sides to the story. We have hurt each other so badly over the years. I don't think we will ever divorce....now. But, I don't know if things will ever reach the place where we will have a sexual active MR again or not.

Well, thank you all for your concern and your posts to me. As always, I appreciate it.

Dear AmyC,

Thank you sweetie, I am not a better woman than you!
And, when I read your response to my "efforts" in my M over the years......well, it helped my feelings to know that you understand. I was beginning to feel that ........oh well, it doesn't matter what I was beginning to feel.....

Thanks for supporting me. I felt like I needed to come to the SSM forum and the guys here have been nice to me and tried to help. They are trying to help me see from my H's POV and at the same time ask for my POV. I haven't heard from too many of the women. But you have been here for me from the first when I came on board and so I consider you to be a friend.....an important one too. I was feeling really "down" last night and then this morning I had to get up early b/c I was in so much pain from the fibromyalgia I couldn't sleep.....then I found your post. I could cry just to know you understand what I have tried to do down through the years. After all these years of being "blamed" and my "good" husband thinks he has done all he knows to do.....well, it just helps me for somebody to understand me. He is not a mean spirited man, but in a way....he has kind of "beaten" me down b/c it was always my fault.

You said you didn't know how to help me.....but you have sweetie. You gave me what I needed to hear this morning.

Love ya,
Sandi

Hey... is kml around anymore? Does anyone remember the post she made about fibromyalgia to... ooohhhh.... somethingJames... his wife had it, and kml gave him a reference for it... they checked it out... found amazing success... for THEM... it isn't for everyone...

Sandi, have you ever talked to a poster called kml about your fibromyalgia? She's a doctor IRL... if not... let me know, and I will go digging through the posts to see if I can find the info...

...could be something worth exploring for you. Sorry to digress...

Corri

Sandi
Like BB, my H feels that I had to have everything around me "perfect" in order to have sex. I didn't see it that way at all......so there you go....two sides to the story.
So, what would you advise your H to do if life had a reset/do over button? I am asking for my benefit too.
So far, I have been complying with, setting up/putting in place the list items, and ignoring some of BB�s list items.

Sandi, I may be listing some things from a man�s POV, but I am also trying to help you and supporting you. My timing might be off. It wouldn�t be the first time.

I posted this before. Here is KML latest post.
Kml latest post http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1186777

Lou

Hi Corri,

No I have not talked to that doctor, but I am willing to listen to anyone or to try just about anything that is suggested to me. My H even said, at one point, that that was one reason he kind of gave up this past eleven years...b/c I always felt so blasted bad all the time. A lot of truth is in that statement he made. Especially in the evenings after we both get home and I have worked all day...I have had it! I know I'm not much fun to be around any more.

Anyway, if you find something, I'd appreciate the information.

Sandi:

Found it. I will quote what I found here. This, from the man to whom she gave the info (JamesMD):

Quote:

Much advice has been given to me, and I have been �listening� to it. I have purchased a number of books and researched many websites on the Internet. One person in particular on this Board...called �kml� gave me the most key bit of information. She recommended that I visit a website http://www.drlowe.com which gave information regarding hypothyroidism. My wife has had that since she was a teenager. She has always taken a T4 med (synthroid) commonly prescribed by doctors. This website gave her info regarding meds which targeted the T3 number of thyroid tests. Despite our doctor not knowing much about it and despite his lack of confidence in this med helping, my wife has been taking it for a week. The results thus far are rather dramatic. By far the majority of her pains and fatigue associated with her fibromyalgia diagnosis have disappeared. Her mood fluctuations are now much, much more stable and pleasant. I have been holding my breath, afraid that it will not stay, but one week has gone by, and we are still looking good. By the way, she said my hopes are up to high. She will remain skeptical for at least a couple of months.

From kml:

Quote:

Okay, I see from your old thread that her doctor put her on Thyrolar - a mixture of T4 and T3. Actually a little more convenient than taking Synthroid and Cytomel, but doesn't give you the same flexibility in dosing, since the ratio of T4 to T3 is fixed.

Two things for her to consider:

1) Since T3 is fast-acting, most people who take it do better if they split their dose into twice a day (to keep the T3 levels up). So, if she's taking it once a day, she may feel better splitting the dose in half and taking it twice a day.

2)Cytomel is a perfectly mainstream medication, pure T3. If she needs a different ratio of T4 to T3 in the future, she shouldn't be afraid to educate her FP on this. There is actually a lot of medical literature on its use.

Sounds like she is lucky to have a doctor who is willing to listen to her. Many thyroid patients have a terrible time getting what they need because their doctors are uneducated or stuck in the endocrinologists' dogma.

One warning for your wife - there is a tendency for doctors to want to decrease the dose if the TSH falls too low, regardless of how the patient is doing. She should resist this if she is feeling well on the current dose - TSH is NOT the be-all and end-all that most doctors think it is.

Quote:

Well, I never had fibromyalgia (although for 2 days I got a taste of it - yuck!) but I'll tell you this about thyroid replacement:
- first of all, once your body starts getting what it needs, there's still a lot of repair that has to go on. I had RAI for hyperthyroidism, became profoundly hypothyroid, and took 5 months to get my thyroid levels up to what I needed. Once I got to the right dose, I would say it still took a couple of months to kick in completely. Think about it - we know there are muscle changes (shown on muscle biopsy) in thyroid patients, and a multitude of other changes take place in the body. Those don't disappear overnight just because your metabolism recovers - the body has to repair all that damage, and that takes time. I don't know what Dr. Lowe sees, but I would expect that even on optimal therapy, it might take a couple of months or more to go away completely.

- second - I notice a lot of thyroid patients on the thyroid boards will get an initial good response when put on a T3-containing preparation, then start to relapse - usually, they seem to get better again when they increase their dosage further. If she truly seems to be going backwards, rather than just sputtering forward, I would definitely invest in a phone consult with Dr. Lowe. I believe this initial good response shows that she CAN improve with T3 therapy, and it will probably just be a matter of adjusting her doses properly and maybe doing some of the supportive things Dr. Lowe recommends as far as nutrition etc. Some people with fibromyalgia end up needing quite a bit of T3 on his protocol. And things like low iron stores can interfere with proper utilization of thyroid hormone. Be patient, encourage her to follow through. Have you bought Dr. Lowe's book for patients? That would be a good place to start. (I have his textbook, I enjoyed reading it but it is HUGE and really technical, so I recommend you get the other book.)

I would highly recommend you email her, or go look up the posts from JamesMD... and look for her posts to him on this subject. If you email her, tell her you are from the SSM Boards, and the crew recommended you drop her a line so she could tell you a bit about Dr. Lowe. Her email address is: elliestough@hotmail.com

She made that public, so I don't feel bad re-posting it here. I hope this might help you and offer you some hope.

Corri

Hi, I tried to go to that website but it said "Not Found". If you find some other address or way to let me know how to get there, I'd appreciate it.

I am sure my H could idenify with you and your frustration with your BB. You sound so much like him in the ways he does things for me....as I've said, that is my H's love language....but not mine. The funny thing is....I always knew when he was trying to ....what was the words you use?.....do the deed? lol
I bet BB can too. Our biggest problems have been "timing"! I am serious!! My timing to talk to him would be the wrong time.....when he wanted to have sex, it would be the wrong time, etc. I could count on it.....for an example.....the very day I would work myself to death cleaning house extra hard...that would be the night he would want to have sex. He would be so turned on that I accused him of getting that way just watching me work my ass off. But, when he was too tired.....then that would be the time I wanted to have fun...etc. Our timing still stinks!

I never believed in sex being given as a reward or refused as a punishment. I used to resent the things my H would do when I knew he was just trying to "get some" (as he called it). When I read about the different love languages....then I realized that was his way of showing me he loved me. But, it doesn't have the results that he hopes to get b/c my love language is needing to hear the "talk"....the words....and he is not going to give them b/c he doesn't talk! If he had given me those intimate moments of conversation I needed so badly when we were first married (especially living in the house with my MIL)....things would have been so different.

I have not mentioned this before. As I have told some, I got pregnant the first month we were married....which was certainly not planned, but anyway, sexual intercourse was so very painful for me....even before I was very far along in the pregnancy. Of course, now, people would tell me to get to the doctor....but back then I did not discuss things so personal like that except maybe with my SIL (who was older and she should have told me to see my doctor...but didn't). Having sex felt like a butcher knife raming into me.....that is very blunt (sorry) but it is the words I used to try to make him understand how much it hurt me to have intercourse. However, it did not slow him down. He wanted it every night. So, I gritted my teeth and tried to bear it while he was "satisfied". I would say a lot of resentment begin to build up there....wouldn't you? Then later in years, he admitted that he thought I was just trying to get out of having sex and that he did not really believe it was actually that painful for me! Why would he think that? We were newly weds. I had never,ever lied to the man before! That hurt me worse than him having the painful intercourse with me. It hurt my heart much more than having the sex.

I have to stop for a bit....hope to get a minute to get back to you shortly.

sorry about the timing issues.
most stuff I read, says that this is exactly why (happily married, otherwise communicating) couples need to SCHEDULE sex, particularly if they have children.
Becuase otherwise, more often than not, something will mess things up.
"but doesnt that kill spontaneity?"
A woman wrote somewhere, that that's why she scheduled multiple times a week for it. If nothing happened on some of those nights that neither of you could control.. . that's ok. becuase the next one will be right along shortly.
Just as long as you dont let ALL of them get interrupted $;\)$

different subject one coming soon. wanted to get that out of the way first.

Ok, now the tougher one.

quickie thing out the way first:

Dont tell him that you "want to draw closer". Dont tell him that you're working on sex. I think you should just do the work, and see how he responds. That's the DR method, I think. it doesnt require that you tell your spouse "you're working on things". In some cases, it's even counter-productive to do so.
Just work on improving things between you, by your own actions, and see what happens. If he approaches you and says he wants to work with you because he sees good changes in you.. great. otherwise, ... you dont "have" to tell him.

----------------------------------------

Sandi, you've described me as a good friend, so I hope you will take this friend's advice to heart.
I'm going to ask you to do something at the end of this post.
I'd like you to promise me that you will Just Do It, today, and write that you will, as soon as you've finished reading this.

I'm not a professional counsellor... but I think that I manage to understand some peoples' emotions pretty durn well. I think that I have a good feeling for what's going on inside you in a particular area.

I understand what resentment can do. I know what a poison it can be. I've been both on the giving, and the recieving end of it.

You have had a lot of difficult things to deal with over the course of your marriage. the initial inconsideration with sex (which was due to a misunderstanding, dont forget). The lack of intimate communication about it, and your feelings.
The drawing away. the lack of sex for over a decade. The unmet need for closeness.

Sandi.. I think that you had an EA, because basically, you have drifted over into WAW mode.
You havent left yet. But you are not "almost" a walk away wife. You are one. You just haven't left let.

There is something in your heart that says, "I will not ALLOW myself to be closer to my husband. I refuse to forgive, and heal, and mend things between us."

You are putting in efforts to make your husband feel nice. and that's really good!
Yet, that's also exactly what the WAW does. She burns herself out with one-way effort, to justify to herself, "Look! I tried!!! but I still feel empty!"

The thing is, though... they feel empty about the marriage, because they dont nurture positive things from their husband to them. Which means that they will never FEEL positive things for their husbands again, because "he never does anything for me. he doesnt 'meet my needs'".

The good news is, you are being fairly honest about your surface level feelings, at least. When I asked you outright if you wanted to be held by your husband, you wrote:

Quote:

Do I "want" him to hold me? I don't know. I honestly don't know.

But you wrote, now many days ago, that you very much want, and need, to be held "by someone", I think.

So: you want to be held "by someone".
But, you are blocking that "someone" from being your husband.
Your WAW side is clouding your mind and heart by saying to yourself, "but I dont 'want' it, i dont 'feel'....". But those are just excuses to justify sabotaging your relationship with your marriage, and not allowing it to get better.

If you wait until you 'want' physical closeness with your husband... it will never come.
You wont 'want it', until you experience simple closeness at just a physical level again, and allow yourself to accept it as a gift of love for your husband.
If you refuse to do either of those things... then it will never get better.

Forget about sex right now.
Just give your husband the opportunity to show caring and love for you, and then accept it from him.
Your WAW side may bubble up in you right now with, "but i GAVE him opportunities, and he didnt ...".
If you truely want to enjoy the marriage that you were meant to have... make her go stand in the corner and shut up $;\)$

Sandi, please promise me that you will ask him today/tonight, to just hold you.
Pick a GOOD time for this.. dont sabotage yourself by picking a time that is so late, you reasonably know things will fall apart by then.
Pick a good PLACE for this. Some place that you know you will feel warm, and comfortable, and peaceful. Where you can just close your eyes, and relax, and think/feel what it is like to have your husband show that he cares about you, by having his arms around you for 15 minutes then.

Promise?

Sandi:

In case you missed it, I posted to you about kml and gave a web site for you to check out.

Corri

Ok, I'm back. So, what would I tell my husband if I had a reset button? Probably the same thing I tried to tell him the first time around. The problem, Lou, is that he did not LISTEN! As I just told in the example about having the painful sex. Another thing happen after our second child was born. Well, it started while I was pregnant, but perhaps the childbirth made things worse, anyway....I developed a bad back. I went for years and years and am still going with a painful back problem due to some nerve damage in the lower part of my back. My H even admitted that he thought I used that at times to get out of having sex. Again, I had never lied to this man my entire life (up until I met the OM on line and had the EA....I never had lied to my H and didn't lie then when he confronted me about the OM.) My point is why would he think I was lying to him about having back pain to get out of sex? So, again......resentment built up.

Sweetie, I don't know where I would even begin to reset the button....probably by not moving into my MIL's house! But, that doesn't help you....(lol).

In the early years, I did not feel as though my H tried at all to contribute to the emotional part of our R. I felt as though all he ever thought about or cared about was sex. That was certainly all he wanted to talk about b/c he never wanted to carry on a conversation about anything else that related to "us".

I've already told how he was in the relationship. So, I would just say that if he had tried to "contribute" something on an intimate level.....that wasn't having sex......I think it would have helped me. To talk to me about what we wanted out of life.....to discuss our dreams and set goals to achieve...but that wasn't him! I wanted to hear his thoughts about everything.....but I heard nothing....absolutely nothing. I make him sound boring, don't I? Well, the honest truth is....he was boring. I did not see him like that before I married him and it did not make me stop loving him after we were married, but it was disappointing. He could be funny at times b/c he has a dry sense of humor....so he could say things that would get me tickled....but he didn't clown around & play or anything like that.

I was disappointed in him as a daddy to the kids. Now, before anyone jumps to conclusions....I don't mean anything bad here. He was a good Christian man and good to the kids, etc. as I have already explained in past messages. He just didn't do anything special with them. For example, he wouldn't take our son fishing or throw a ball with him, etc. You know....men things. My son has said enough over the years that I know it kind of hurt him that his dad did not do those things with him. But family members know that is just how my H is and they might as well accept it b/c he won't change.

I don't think it would really do any good for me to look back over the past and say what I wish I could re-do, b/c it can't be done. However, if I could say something to help you....I would.

I can't remember if it was you or one of the other guys that asked me what would attract me to him now or what he could do now that would turn me on. For one thing......to see him lying on the couch in his underwear is not that attractive to me. That has become his usual state of these days. When he sits down in the recliner or even on the couch, his head fall forward or backwards about two seconds later.....and he is sound asleep.....usually snoring. Not the most attractive sight. He keeps clean and likes to wear good smelling cologne. All the men in his family have always done that. So, no complaints there. The main thing I think I wished he would do .......is to stop acting like he is my husband! Maybe he would try to act sexy then. If he pretended to be my lover instead of my husband......maybe he would at least "act" sexy.....you know as in "try". Married people become too lazy and take each other for "granted"....and it shows! Lovers would not do that...at least I don't think they would. They would look good (often even look their best)for each other and try to show some "life" about themselves. I think they might even try to "entertain" each other at times and have a little fun.

Yep......I think that would be sexy to me! That would be the button I would want to have to push and see if any fireworks were set off.

Now....about you "BB". Is she as really as selfish as she ounds? Lordy! I don't want to make you mad at me sweetie, but it sounds like she has you jumping through hoops trying to make her happy in hopes that you may get a little bit of sex.....if everything else is just perfect......(BTW, this is what my H would say is exactly the way it is around his house too). It would be very interesting to hear my H's and your W's stories.

I want us to talk more about this......all this stuff you are trying to do to please her and how she is treating you. Are you sure you are not going down those "cheese-less tunnels"?

Have to go for a little bit...get back with you.

Great advice Sandi,
I will re-read LRT in the DR book, I have it at home. I'm not sure I would tell her anything though until I feel I have a promising start with another woman, when my (10 year old mature son) and my W would need to know.
But very good advice on explaining to my S that he is most important, which he is. I don't need to explain much to my 20 year old S, he gets it.

I went down to the bank to see if the "other" woman wanted to go out with me, but she only works Mondays and Fridays, so I guess I'll call her tomorrow and see if she would like to go out for lunch and see how it goes.

I don't know if ready to "move on" is the way to phrase it? I would welcome my wife back with open arms (and a C schedule), but she is not ready, and I'm sick of waiting, again, this is the 2nd time she has packed up and left, I'm sick of being a doormat to that. I'm not ready to put a welcome mat at my front door like my chiropractor used to have that said "Glad To See Your Back"! lol.
If I was to say to my W today that if she doesn't come home and make a home for the 3 of us then I am moving on and dating, she would say "go right ahead".
My W has not filed for D, nor has she spoken about it in a very long time, in fact she only brought it up when she first dropped the bomb back in February, maybe she said it 2 or 3 times in a short period of time, but nothing since. I'm not sure I would want to initiate a D either, what would happen if after a year or so she wanted to make a go of it, and I felt we should too?

I have really tried to make her feel special throughout this, and melt her heart. I've told her that she may find someone she loves more than me, but she will never find anyone that loves her more than I do. I've told her and my S that she is the prettiest girl in the world, I've always said that though.
I've always told her I love her, the last time was over a month ago when she told me to stop doing that, she said nothing is going to change, she also told me to quit telling my S to give her a kiss and a hug, so I have done so. She won't cry no matter what I say or do, she said she cried too many tears already and said crying doesn't help anyway. she also won't toy with me, she is a very caring, honest person, but she just doesn't want me, I finally get it.

Both neighbors are good friends of hers, one is a single woman that she would visit often when we lived together, the other a couple that we hung out with every weekend for over a year, they sided with me in the beginning, but now I never see or hear from them, they hang out with my W only. They are nice people, and I know she is not spying, but it still makes me feel uncomfortable that the woman I spent 17 years with can go next door but not stop and see me, I'll never get that? Maybe I'm jealous that our friends (the couple) don't hang out with me anymore?

Sandi, keep up the good work with your H. Are you positive he won't go to a C with you? When was the last time you asked him? What if you let him pick the C? How about that weekend away with a bottle or 2 of wine? i think some guys would rather remove the heart wrenching discussions of fixing the R, when you may be able to win each other over by not saying a word, good food, drink and sex, I would imagine that after 11 years, it would seem like a stranger in a brand new R!
Why can he read your e-mail or posts, don't you have your own screen names and passwords, if not, do it today, it's called privacy!
I don't open mail addressed to my W, and she doesn't open mail addressed to me. I would let him read your books, he might learn something. If he is going through your things, then he is insecure about your R, I know, because I did the same thing when my marriage broke down, I thought she must be cheating on me, so I went through her drawers, checked her cell phone calls etc...
Maybe you could confirm to your H that the OM is out of the picture, tell him he is the most important man in your life, hand him the yellow pages, tell him to find a C of his choosing while you book a weekend away, don't ask him, tell him!

You bet your A#* I'm in your corner, talk to you later.

Goodguy, I have only one short thing to say for you:
Please live up to your login name, and be a "good guy".
Dont go dating anyone, until you are divorced.
"dating", is for people who are either
a) looking for casual sex
b) looking for a serious long-term relationship.
[some people claim otherwise. those people are either LIARS trying to take the 'pressure off' or something... or they're just looking for sex]

presuably, you're not looking for a. if you're looking for b with someone other than your wife, then you would be betraying your marriage vows of "forsaking all others" by pursuing it while still married.

Now... back to Sandi.

Come back and reply to my prior message, Sandi... no more avoiding $\:D$

sandi:

In the early years, I did not feel as though my H tried at all to contribute to the emotional part of our R. I felt as though all he ever thought about or cared about was sex. That was certainly all he wanted to talk about b/c he never wanted to carry on a conversation about anything else that related to "us".

If you wanted to spend an evening emotionally connecting with him, what would YOU do?

Dom R,
Thanks for your input.
But I think we have to see both perspectives, my W has betrayed our vows by leaving...better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness & in health...Why would it be okay for her to break the vows but not I? I had no intention of ever breaking my vows. I was forced into it.
I am a good guy, I am not looking for casual sex, I am looking for the friendship and companionship of a woman, nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:

Why would it be okay for her to break the vows but not I?

it's not ok for her to break her vows. nor is it ok for you to.
The bible does not say, "if your spouse cheats on you, you can cheat on them." It says, paraphrasing a little,
"if your spouse cheats on you, and you cannot forgive them, divorce them"

Quote:

I am a good guy, I am not looking for casual sex, I am looking for the friendship and companionship of a woman, nothing more, nothing less.

Balony $\:\)$ You're playing mind games with yourself. As with just about every other man here, you want "an intimate relationship with a woman". Which will eventually lead to sex if you get it. And even if it doesnt, you're breaking your marriage vows, by pursuing an intimacy like that with a woman other than your wife. Your wife should be the person you are most intimately connected with. You are looking to replace the void of intimacy with your wife, with intimacy with someone else. Think about it, and where it leads.
Then post a link to your OWN THREAD, if you'd like to discuss this further $;\)$

PS: How DARE you claim that you are being "forced" to break your marital vows!! No-one is holding a gun to your head.

PPS to cemar: her husband is not capable of having an evening of "emotionally connecting". That is at the end of a very LOOONG road of personal development for him. Best to not start down "cheezeless tunnels", and focus on more immediate goals, I think.

Sandi.. where are yoooooouuuu?? !!

Corri, thank you so much! I will do that.

$\:\($

seems like you are silently avoiding the hard stuff...

Sandi, if you are not going to take my advice about the holding... how about putting into words why you wont do it?

Dom:

Goodness... maybe she's busy doing IRL stuff???

Corri

Dom R

Great advice...I do hope Sandi thinks on this one...you never know how you will really "feel" about something until it is done...

I don't know...sounds to me like her H was a bit inexperienced and didn't know how to please her and was afraid to ask...and Sandi being the proper wife didn't tell him...she did tell him what she didn't like...and yes, she did the dress up stuff to entice him...but that didn't work...he seems like he is more simple then that requires...but somewhere he does need to understand that it isn't making love unless both parties are "into it"...sex is empty for someone...usually the giver of it....

Sandi...see if you can respond to Dom R...he might be on the right track for you...not that it will be easy...might take a bottle of wine...gosh, I know that is what it took for me H...sad but true...I do have hopes that we will get back what was lost...and since he is recovering alcoholic he will have to do it the hard way...

Take care...Lin

Hey Dom, this is a great place to ask and receive advice, not to push your lousy stinking opinions on other people. I don't like your attitude! Have you read my entire post? Do you know what has happened in my sitch? I don't think so, as I don't know yours. If you want to give friendly, kind words of encouragement, I'm all ears. If you think by reading a couple of my paragraphs you can tell me what to do, take a long lingering walk off a short pier, you punk, I'll kick your A$$.

Yeah, Sandi is busy, take the hint!

Everybody simmer down.

Dom R, somebody not responding to you immediately does not necessarily have any implication of rejection of your POV. Frankly, insisting on someone responding immediately and/or taking your advice is bordering on personality disorders. I'm not throwing that out as a dig, just suggesting you might want to look inward at your motivation for addressing Sandi the way you did.

Goodguy, I have to admit that you're not living up to your name in your last post. And I must say, I'm getting a weird vibe from your posts to and concerning Sandi. I say this in all seriousness, I am not trying to be mean or manipulative. Your posts to her come across as a little TOO concerned about her, if you know what I mean. You might look to see if you have formed too deep of an emotional attachment to her, something that is VERY easy to do on personal help MB's and can be VERY insidious if you are not careful. If I'm off base on this, sorry for bringing it up. But I'm all for trying as hard as you can to be self-aware. I struggle mightily with that myself.

Please don't be offended by that suggestion, I mean you no ill will. Just thinking out loud and trying to help

Take care
Chrome

Hi Everyone......thanks for being here for me tonight. I am not ignoring you...and I'n not "busy" either. I taked a little on my lunch break. When I got off work and came home....I was really, really hurting. I am having a tough time this evening with the fibromyalgia. I will try to respond to all of you tomorrow, hopefully.

DomR, I didn't see your post with your question to me until a few minutes ago. I don't know how I missed it before, but that has happened with me before. Like I said, I am still learning this board and trying to find my way around...so I don't know why it sneaked by me.

To "my guys"....please don't fight. I was the one that didn't give good advice. I was shocked when I read it... but I think it is true...and I'm crying while I'm typing this b/c it hurts to face truth.....but I think I do still have the heart of a WAW! I shouldn't be givng anyone advice. I'm sorry that I caused problems between you......two of my favorite "Sweeties".

hey Sandi.. yeah, i figured it might be something like that. I looked at the timestamps of your more recent post, and was wondering.. Hmm... ookay... she's been back here, and replied to someone else 2 hours after I posted mine, but.... no reply to mine?

It was probably "posting overlap", where you were posting kinda at the same time i was editing/composing my long one, so it didnt flag to you as "new".

I'm sorry that you are in pain tonight. Yet at the same time, maybe it would be actually the best time to ask for some comfort from your husband tonight.
hope you read this before you turn in.

Sandi..

I still think even if you do have the heart of a WAW that the advice you can give is valuable...as we really don't get much chance at hearing "from the otherside" much on how the things that we do innocently effects the one who is dealing with the crisis in their life...

I do hope you consider Dom's thoughts...yes, they may have come across as a bit too direct but I think his jist has a good direction...

I also don't approve of the slamming that is going on...to tell someone to take a walk off a short peir and talking about kicking someone's butt becomes a bit juvenile...just because one might not agree with another doesn't make it right to verbally attack...redirect, give another opinion...absolutely...but lets keep the playground stuff out of the BB's okay?

And Chromosphere makes a good point also...just because we are here to help ourselves and help others doesn't make us immune from emotional attachments...I know I was very vulnerable as a LBS during the time my H was away...a little attention can go along way...make sure we stay focused, constructive, and if we can't keep an objectionable view then we need to back off...

Everyone have a good night...Sandi, I hope your pain gets better sooner rather then later...take care....you know where I am if you need me...Lin

Dom R:

Interesting that when I asked sandi to define what an evening of emotionaling connecting would be like, that your response was geared towards the husband and the long journey he must make. While you are correct, I was not thinking about him. I want to know how Sandi plans on emotionally connecting to her husband. I wonder if SHE has the tools.

Good morning everyone,

Well, just a quick update. I am trying to get myslef geared to face the day and try to make it to work. I stil feel rough but not in the pain I was last night. Speaking of last night....I took the advice....and I went in and sat right next to my H on the couch. He immediately reached over and put his arms around me and kissed me on the shoulder and said he was so sorry I was hurting. He commented on the fribromyalgia. I wasn't able to say too much due to my pain and the way it was working on my nervous system at the time, but he just held me and I tried to do as I was advised and just try my best to "relax" (under the circumstances). He was real sweet. I guess I sat there for 15 or 20 minutes and then I had to get up and move around. But, I think it was a good move. Another "major" thing that happen was he told me he loved me and I was able to tell him back that I loved him also. So.....I think I did my "homework" okay (lol).

I am still thinking about what you said cemar2.....about the emotional connecting and exactly what you mean. I hope that is what we started last night....to emotionally connect. My idea of doing that for an evening would be to come home from work and spend "quality" time together snuggled up with each other and talking about how we "feel" about things. The "small" talk about the weather, etc. is useless to me and that is about all my H has done over the years. I will talk to you more about that later today.

Before I forget to mention this....there is something I wanted to tell you all and see what your response to it is. There was something that come on TV one night about couples and how sometime one "outgrows" the other one in life. My H has told me at two differnt times that he thinks I have outgrown him. Remember I was 18 and he was 22 when we married. To be completely, very honest.....at times....I kind of feel that way myself....but that is not to put him down or say that I am smarter than he is or anything like that....but I think he means in other ways.....or an example I think he looks at the type of work we do. But, anyway, it is something I've been meaning to tell you all and forgot to. For whatever that may be worth.

Anyway, I have to get busy or I won't make it to work on time. I just wanted to share what happened last night. I needed him to show me compassion due to my pain and he did....so I felt like it was a good move.

Love you all for being concerned for me.

I am so proud of you for taking that step!! $\:D$
Funny thing is... it seems like you didnt even have to ask him to hold you.(?)
And that, in itself, i think can be even more encouraging to you, because it tells you that its not all "on you", trying to ask or prod your husband to show you affection. He is already "open" to doing that with you. Congratulations $\:D$

The "outgrowing" stuff is just divorce justification crap. It's total garbage. It's just an excuse for, "I want different things than what I wanted when we married. So I want to go hook up with someone else, rather than doing actual work, to keep our relationship close".

Everyone is going to change, as they grow older. Marriage is a commitment to work to keep the two of you close, yet still allow each person to change and develop in your own ways.
The "outgrow" crap, is horrible in multiple ways:

- It says "I'm BETTER than you". And implies "I DESERVE BETTER than you"
- It says "you are INCAPABLE of being better than you are" (but I'm not limited, because I'm so superior to you)
- It says, "i've changed, and the change is for the better". whereas in reality, many times, the change is for the worse

It's bad for other reasons too.

Whenever someone is getting a divorce because they've "outgrown" their partner... they are actually proclaiming very loudly, that they have regressed into an immature, selfish child.

I'm gonna write more about getting meaningful sharing out of your husband later. But first I want to comment a bit more on the physical closeness.

You did a great job on your "homework" $;\)$ but it's not done!
I think you need to do something similar every day, or at the outside, every other day (but every day would probably be best).
15 minutes of just being close and snuggling with each other. no pressure about anything else. Just allow yourself to relax next to your husband, and feel his warmth for you.
What you've done is like excercise. You had a great first day's workout.. but if you stop... then after a few days, you'll be just the same as before you started.

It sounds like you've decided to take a positive attutude about your "workout", and enjoy it. I'm really happy for you $\:\)$

[quote=Dom R]
Balony $\:\)$ You're playing mind games with yourself. As with just about every other man here, you want "an intimate relationship with a woman". [quote]

First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry if anyone was offended by my mini melt down, but honestly, read the 2 quotes from Dom and then ask if this is advice? I have been to this site daily for a long while, I absorb advice, read different sitch's, (and we all know each of us has a different sitch). So to ball park that every man on this site is only after an intimate relationship with a woman is pretty immature, I am 48 years old, not 20!

[quote=Dom R]
PS: How DARE you claim that you are being "forced" to break your marital vows!! No-one is holding a gun to your head.
[quote]

I am not breaking my marital vows, I did not initiate a separation, I don't want a divorce, I love my wife, that is why I'm here! Does a person who wants to move on from their marriage visit this site multiple times a day? This site is to save our marriages, that is my clear intention. So when I say I am being "forced", what I mean is that my wife is in the drivers seat. She was the unhappy one, I was blissfully married one day, and the next was told she wanted out. No one is holding a gun to my head, but we are constantly being told by WISE DBers, to come here to vent, instead of to our spouses. That was what I was doing.
I'm a man, when someone pokes me in the chest, I poke them right back. Again, if I offended anyone, my appologies.

Hi,

Well, today I'm having a very hard time at work. I may get a chance off and on .....a minute at a time to jot a line or two. I am feeling very bad, but trying to hang in here.

The statement I made about "outgrowing" came from my H, however, I had wondered about it myself. I think to compare what I had reference to is like when a couple marries young and she works trying to help her H go through college and get his career going....or she stays home and has the babies and while they are in school and the H goes forward and "up the ladder" (as they say) and the first thing you know...it is almost as though they live in different worlds...at least during the working hours of the day. The trick is to be able to come together at the close of the day and still have things in common. I have seen that become a problem in couples and they do eventually split. It is sad. I won't say that is what happen in our particular stitch...but maybe something similiar. I don't think it is that big a deal with me and my H. Nothing we can't work through.

Chrome... I'm kind of picking up on the same thing you are... sometimes when I come to this thread, I feel like I inadvertently walked into a bedroom instead of the restroom. And I feel like... "Oh my goodness... Ooops... I, uh... oops..." and I slam the door.

I don't mean to jab at anyone... that's what I feel... and I've never encountered that on the SSM Forum... I just really don't know HOW to make comments here... given this...

Corri

I'm somewhat confused as to why your here. Your on a SSM board seeking advice on your marriage and in the next breath your going down to the bank to meet another woman?

Not poking in the chest but if you take it that way, hey I'm game.

hi GG. glad to hear you've calmed down a bit. maybe I can clarify a bit more on what I wrote to you:

Quote:

ball park that every man on this site is only after an intimate relationship with a woman is pretty immature, I am 48 years old, not 20!

Two things - "intimate" is not just a synonym for "sexual"... and... who says that 48 year old guys dont need or want sex just like 20 year olds anyway? $;\)$

To put it another way; "intimate relationship" == "someone to share your life with". That's supposed to be shared with your wife. Sharing it with other people instead, is how the majority of (non-sex-driven) people end up having physical affairs after the relationship develops.

As far as "venting" goes... you've got to be careful of the difference between venting, and psyching yourself up to do something. It's one thing to say, "my wife is acting like such a bitch!"
It's an entirely different thing to say, "my wife is 'forcing' me to go and ...."

Your exact words were,
"I had no intention of ever breaking my vows. I was forced into it."

That's not venting. That's self-justification for doing something that is wrong, and trying to avoid responsibility for your own choices. Be careful?

Ditto that Corri.

I found it interesting that Dom R got really upset about Sandi not responding, but has not bothered to respond to several of my posts to him. Frankly though, that is his perogative, and if he doesn't want to engage in conversation with me, that's fine. I'm sure he's just busy focusing on helping Sandi (and I say that in all seriousness, that is perfectly fine).

I do get the same feeling that I'm not wanted on this thread, which is also fine.

Finechrome

Yes, chrome, i'm trying to focus on helping sandi, in HER thread $\:\)$ One side chatter is enough; i didnt want to start yet another side thread in it.
I thought that I actually addressed some of what you said to me, though, in my reply to sandi afterwards.
Anyways.. back to Sandi. as i said, I'm gonna write more about that, a bit later today.

Dear Corri and Chromosphere......

I want you, I want you, I want you! Please you guys don't feel this way. We all get so emotional b/c we are going through emotional stuff in our lives. I will admit that the first time Corri posted to me that I thought I was being ....... what word shall I use?.....ah....I don't know, but it wasn't good (lol) However, when I saw that help about finding the site for the Fibromyalgia...then I knew that my best interest really was what was intended at the time the first post came through.

So, see, I misunderstood b/c my "emotions" were fragile at the time and I think that a lot of us are that way now. When I went to "piecing" forum....I got very few responses....then someone from here asked me to come to SSM....and oh boy...did that ever open a box of ..."something"!

Anyway, since this is my thread.....let me say to all of you...my "guys" and my "gals".... you are all my "sweeties"...that is what I call people I care about....nothing sexual intended......I want you to know I appreciate all of you and I am proud of my sweetie--GoodGuy-- for what he said today. I want all of us to get along on my thread. I consider you to be my friends and you ARE helping me. I doubt I have been much help to anyone....but someday I hope to be.

If the rest of my day goes slow at work and I get a minute here and there to reply to you individually....I will. If I don't get a chance....I will tonight. Just pray that I can make it through the afternoon. As I said, my pain level is getting higher today, so it is hard...but so far the work activity has been slow in the office.

Take care......my "sweeties".

Sound good Dom. Just let me know if you would like to continue our discussion. I didn't see a response to me in a response to Sandi, but I could have missed it.

Sandi,

Don't worry, I wasn't planning on "abandoning" you. If something comes up that I think I can help on, I WILL post, with the exception of being explicitly told not too by the person involved. There was just this general "feeling" of "WE are here to help Sandi, so butt out!" As you say though, feelings are not always the best yardstick to use.

Carry on,
Chrome

Sandi2; Re: fibromyalgia

The poster with a screen name KML talks a lot about thyroid conditions and has said a few things about fibromyalgia.

KML often tells people to e-mail her at elliestough@hotmail.com

Yesterday she posted I am leaving tomorrow for a long-planned trip with my sister and my mom so it might take a while for her to reply to you.

Chrom/Corri, your posts are right on.

Sandi, in some ways your situation has many things in common with my situation. I can give you my opinions and state how I feel as a H in some similar instances. I don�t know if or how it might help you and your H improve your M.

For me, there is a line between me complaining and letting someone else know how it might feel like to your H so you can understand where/what he �MIGHT� be feeling/thinking.

Sometimes I feel I put out too much information and it turns to W basking or idle chatter, so if I don�t say much, it isn�t because I am ignoring you or anyone else.

WTG on the recent I took the advice....and I went in and sat right next to my H on the couch. He immediately reached over and put his arms around me and kissed me on the shoulder and said he was so sorry I was hurting.

Lou

See next post related to back pain and other pains due to stress. I wrote a summary of things that I thought might apply to me. It may or may not apply to your situation.

A summary of what I found in the book Healing Back Pain: The Mind body Connection by John E. Sarno M.D.

OXYGEN DEPRIVATION; THE PATHOPHYSIOLOGY OF TMS

We have postulated that in TMS the autonomic system selectively decreases blood flow in certain muscles, nerves, tendons and ligaments in response to the presence of repressed emotions like anxiety and anger. This state is known as ischemia, that is, the tissue involved is getting less than its normal complement of blood. This means that there will be less oxygen available to those tissues than they are accustomed to and the result will be symptoms-pain, numbness, tingling and sometimes weakness. These things happen because of the critical importance of oxygen in all physiologic processes. When it is reduced below its normal levels one can expect a reaction that will signal that fact.

What is difficult to understand is why the autonomic system should react so as to cause pain and other unpleasant symptoms when its normal function is to keep the body operating at an optimal level regardless of what's going on around it. This is clearly highly unusual but suggests that there must be some pressing need for the reaction. As we have suggested earlier, that need is to deflect the person's attention away from those very unpleasant, often painful emotions that the mind is trying to keep repressed. It is as though the mind had decided that a physical pain is preferable to an emotional one. When viewed in this light the process is not so illogical.
��..
One body of evidence that the physiologic alteration in TMS is oxygen deprivation is clinical. It has long been recognized that heat, introduced into muscle by diathermy or ultrasound machines, will relieve back pain temporarily. So will deep massage and active exercise of the muscles involved. All three of these physical measures are known to increase blood flow through muscle. Increased blood flow means more oxygen, and if that relieves pain it is logical to assume that oxygen deprivation was responsible for the pain.
There is also laboratory evidence for this concept. In 1973 two German research workers, H. G. Fassbender and K. Wegner, reported finding microscopic changes in the nuclei of biopsied muscles from back pain patients suggesting oxygen deprivation in "Morphologic and Pathogeneses des Weichteilrheumatismus," Z. Rheumaforsch (Vol. 32, p. 355).

For additional evidence on the critical role of oxygen in TMS we are indebted to a group of research workers who have demonstrated in their laboratories in recent years that muscle oxygenation is low in patients suffering from a disorder known as primary fibromyalgia.
��
The Physiology of TMS 65

The term trigger points, which has been around for many years, refers to the pain elicited when pressure is applied over various muscles in the neck, shoulders, back and buttocks. There is some controversy over what precisely is painful, but most would agree that it is something in the muscle. Rheumatologists, who have taken the lead in studying fibromyalgia (TMS), appear to avoid using the term, probably because of its association with other diagnoses through the years. I neither use it nor avoid it, for I have concluded that these points of tenderness are merely the central zones of oxygen deprivation. Further, there is evidence that some of these points of tenderness may persist for life in TMS-susceptible people, like me, though there may be no pain.
In the first chapter the point was made that most patients with TMS will have tenderness at six key points: the outer aspect of both buttocks, both sides of the small of the back (lumbar area) and the top of both shoulders. These tender points, trigger points, call them what you will, are the hallmark findings in TMS and they are the ones that tend to persist after the pain is gone. It is an important part of the physiology of TMS to know that the brain has chosen to implicate these muscles in creating the syndrome we know as TMS.
Patients sometimes ask if breathing pure oxygen will relieve the pain. This has been tried and, unfortunately, does not help. If the brain intends to create a state of oxygen deprivation it will do so regardless of how oxygen-rich the blood is.
��..

P79
There�s nothing like a little physical pain to keep your mind off your emotional problems.

��
P82
Review the Daily Reminders

This is an important strategy but one must be careful that it does not become a ritual. Patients are given a list of twelve key thoughts, and it is suggested that at least once a day they set aside fifteen minutes or so when they can relax and quietly review them. They are called daily reminders.

� The pain is due to TMS, not to a structural abnormality.
� The direct reason for the pain is mild oxygen deprivation.
� TMS is a harmless condition, caused by my repressed emotions.
� The principal emotion is my repressed anger.
� TMS exists only to distract my attention from the emotions.
� Since my back is basically normal there is nothing to fear.
� Therefore, physical activity is not dangerous.
� And I must resume all normal physical activity.
� I will not be concerned or intimidated by the pain.
� I will shift my attention from the pain to emotional issues.
� I intend to be in control-not my subconscious mind.
I must think psychological at all times, not physical.
��
P141
It is possible that the anxiety that is a part of everyone's life stems from the response of this part of our emotional systems to the stresses and strains of daily existence. The greater the stress, the more anxiety is generated. And, as stated in the psychology chapter, the same goes for anger.
Anger may be one of the most important and least appreciated of the emotions we generate. The celebrated psychoanalyst and ethicist Willard Gaylin published a book in 1984 titled The Rage Within, which explored the subject of anger in modern man. Because anger is so antithetical to our idea of appropriate behavior in a civilized society we tend to repress it at the very moment it is generated in the unconscious and so remain unaware of its existence. There are many reasons, most of them unconscious, why we repress anger. They were enumerated in the psychology chapter (see page 38).
The tendency to repress undesirable emotions is a supremely important element of one's emotional life.
��
P144
Experience with TMS and these related conditions suggests that there may be a common denominator, anxiety perhaps, that can bring on any one of these disorders. In that case, some other emotion, anger for example, may be the primary one that may in turn induce anxiety, which then brings on the symptom.
Personally, I have experienced gastric hyperacidity, colitis, migraine headache, palpitations and a variety of musculoskeletal symptoms typical of TMS and know that they were all the result of repressed anger. Once having learned the trick, I could usually identify the reason for the anger-and often turns off the symptom.
It is interesting to note that most of the disorders listed above are mediated through the autonomic nervous system.

The Physical Disorder as a Defense
Against Repressed Emotions

This has been discussed in chapter 2 on psychology, and it will be only briefly reiterated here that the purpose of the physical symptomatology, whether it is musculoskeletal, gastrointestinal or genitourinary, is to distract attention, which is a mechanism for allowing the individual to avoid feeling or dealing with the undesirable emotions, whatever they may be. It is, in essence, a lack of desire of the mind to cope with these feelings. One must make a sharp distinction, however, between a decision made in the subconscious and one which the person would consciously make.
��.
Mind and Body 147
The Emotions and More Serious Disorders

There are those in medicine who believe that emotions play a role in all aspects of health and illness. I am one of them. Alexander suggested doing away with the term psychosomatic medicine since it was redundant-everything medical is influenced in some way by the emotions. I believe that all medical studies are flawed if they do not consider the emotional factor. ��.

Before discussing other kinds of medical problems in which emotions may play a prominent role, it is important to make it clear that people do not do these things to themselves. It is not uncommon for patients to say to me after the diagnosis of TMS has been made, "I feel terrible; I did it to myself." Upon which I tell them that their emotional patterns were well established long before they reached the age of responsibility and that what they are now is a result of a combination of genetic and developmental-environmental factors over which they had no control. Might as well take responsibility for how tall you are or the color of your eyes. Therefore, they are reacting to life in the only way they know how. Further, if one begins to understand why one reacts the way one does and wants to change, some degree of progress is possible.
��.
P151
Because of their tendency to be compulsive, perfectionisti,c and very responsible and conscientious, people with TMS often describe themselves as Type A. They are, in fact, different in some important respects. Many TMS patients are the antithesis of hostile; they often have a strong need to be good, nice, pleasant, accommodating and helpful. Though they may be ambitious and often very accomplished, they do not necessarily pursue their goals with the intensity that seems to be characteristic of the Type A person.

ok, now I'll write the other half of my post $\:\)$
This is relating to you "emotionally connecting" with your husband, with the idea that you want to experience deep sharing between you both.

You probably already know everything that I'm going to mention, but I think it's worth explicitly writing it down.
Your husband is going to have GREAT difficulty doing this, because

He's never really done it before, so doesnt know how
He's a GUY! $\:\)$
He's old, so he may be cranky about changing himself
He may not want to "feel vulnerable", depending on what you talk about.

But... that doesnt mean he's incapable of sharing.

At some point in the future, you may be able to approach him and start the road to intimate sharing. [I would suggest, not before you have done a few weeks of the physical closeness on a very regular basis!]
It's going to have to be a very gentle, slow road. Guys can get really tired out from doing this stuff, if it's not something that feels natural to them. They can even feel attacked, or hurt, and certainly vulnerable.

I'm going to use a somewhat ugly metaphor. please forgive me.
Think about how rough it felt to you, when you first were having sex with him. It was painful for you. But he couldnt understand that.
To him, sex was natural, feels good, and you should be all enthusiastic about it.
To YOU... you needed it to be slow, and gentle, and not overwhelm you when you werent ready for it.
I think that it's important to approach him for "intimate sharing", with almost the same kind of very slow, gentle patience that you wish he had used with sex way back when.
He didnt understand you then. Hopefully, you will understand him better, now, with this.

------------------

PHEW! quite a leadup. Which is why I wanted to make this a separate post.

So... with that in mind... how to approach?
I think it's important not to start with an "I need sharing, dammit!" kind of attitude $;\)$ not saying you have that, just warning against it. The thing is to make it a comfortable, pleasant experience that he feels good about, and wants to repeat.

Plus: you may be wanting a "conversational partner". He's not very conversational. That's a WHOOOLE 'nuther issue to get over $\:\($ I think that you need to be aware of this, and understand that you will have the burden of "driving the conversation", so to speak.

That being said... some authors claim that guys LIKE talking about themselves. I think that this is true... IF the guy believes that the person they are talking to, is really interested in them. and/or the topic they want to talk about.
In other words, from a typical guy perspective, I think the feelings are:

talk "just to make conversation"? waste of time
talk about fishing, to someone who doesnt like fishing? waste of time
talk about fishing, to someone who likes sports, or wants to cook fresh fish/other genuine interest? Useful! Productive! Good!

I think the good tactic, is to first figure out the stuff that interests him (and ideally, has SOME interest to you)... then encourage him to talk about it.
THEN maybe toss out a few "what does that mean to you?" "how do you feel about it" kinda things. (gotta be really sparing on those, though. one or two per conversation only!)

Men usually like to DO things. When they're not doing things themselves, most men like to talk about doing things, or watch other people doing things. That's why men watch sports, whereas women watch soaps.
Vicarious DOings, vs vicarious FEELings $\:D$
If you get used to talking to him about things he enjoys talking about, and that he has a personal interest in doing.. then I'm guessing he will feel that much more connected to you, in talking about "personal" things in general. If you are patient about it, you will have built a link with him there.

Men tend to "feel" things, in terms of ambitions. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage in helping you more deeply, because I dont know how a 60 year old man views ambitions. But I bet there are still things he'd like to do or achieve. Some kind of ambitions that are still "future" things that he looks forward to.
If he's given up on doing things.... that's a problem. Maybe you can encourage him (gently!!) to look forward to doing things, that other men his age enjoy.

WHoops. but I veered off course. The focus should not be on how to "fix" your husband! The focus should be on, how to encourage, and listen to, and admire, your husband. In other words, what YOU can do, to make your relationship better for BOTH of you!

It is also said that men thrive on "respect".
If you seek out areas and things that you can admire and/or respect your husband in, and show him that you do...that might bump-start a whole new positive dynamo for your relationship, alongside the physical closeness one that may be starting up.
Not to mention, that it doesnt hurt to remind yourself of positive qualities in your husband $;\)$

All this is mostly just something for you to file away to maybe look at in october. Certainly, there's nothing stopping you from admiring and respecting your husband right away $;\)$
But I'm guessing that you have plenty to occupy you right now, just getting reaccquainted with your husband's arms. Maybe, instead of trying to pressure yourself to rush to the final destination... you should take your time, and enjoy the journey $;\)$

oh well.. hope this was helpful to you. enough blathering from me now $\:D$

Sandi:

My idea of doing that for an evening would be to come home from work and spend "quality" time together snuggled up with each other and talking about how we "feel" about things.

This is good. This is restoring the emotional connection to YOU. This is your HUSBANDS responsibility. This is where HE should be focusing HIS efforts. TELL HIM that this is where he should focus HIS efforts.

But he is still left out. HE needs emotional connection to you. How are YOU going to give HIM the emotional connection that HE wants.

I was wondering how you were doing, Sandi and I finally found you.

Got to catch up on your situation now.

Dear Cemar2 and DomR.....and the entire "Sandi's crew",

You guys are so sweet trying to help me...especially from a man's POV. Lord knows, I need all of that I can get. My man, however, does not talk about anything....remember? He does not have any interests....remember? He has no ambition.....remember? (Just trying to be funny here, not sarcastic.) How do you talk to somebody like that?

I tried to pull him into a coversation by asking him to tell me how I had failed at fullfilling his emotional needs. (This was back a few months ago. He sat there for (seemed like hours) several minutes and I was determined I wasn't going to say anything before he did. In our early years, I would only wait a few seconds and if he didn't answer right away...I would redirect my question. In my family, nobody "waited" before giving an answer! (lol) But, over the years, I have tried to practice waiting to give him several minutes to answer me. I knew what he was going to say before he even answered me. Sure enough, he looked at me and finally said, "Sandi, I don't guess I know how to answer that." I wanted to pull my hair and scream at him, but I didn't. I could have talked for days about all the ways he failed me....and he couldn't tell me one single way that I had failed him? Finally, he said, "Well, I don't know that this is a good way to express it, but I guess I would have to say that I never felt like you supported me". I nearly fainted from the shock. Didn't support him? I could write pages on top of pages of things that happen over the past decades that other people said that they would not have put up with and would have left him....even my own parents thought that over more than a couple of things that he did (and they loved him!) but I stuck by him and thought that was what I was doing.....showing my "support" for my husband. I tried not to "re-act" to what he said, but calmly asked him to expound on what he meant. Well, I should have known that was asking too much. He said, "I don't really know.....*support* wasn't the word I was looking for". A week or so went by and I tried to bring it up again (can't hurry him, you know) and asked him if he had thought of a better way to explain to me and he said....nope. So, that was how it was left. (He probably remembered it started with an "s" but it was *sex*...not support.)

You think I am kidding when I tell you that he doesn't talk about anything. My own father did not know how to talk to him, and my dad was a big talker. I wonder how we ever got married....after all...he was required to say "I Do" at the wedding!

Jumping ahead several years up to this past year when he found out about the OM and my EA......he started followig me around all over the house.....just watching me and asking me questions. I wonder how it felt to him to find out that I did not want to talk? Funny how the tables turned over the years. When he was doing all the "wrong things" after finding out about he OM, he told me he loved me while drivng back from dropping my mother off at her house.....and for the first time in our marriage, I did not respond to him. It made him furious!

I told him that he treated people in our church, our neighbors, and even strangers a lot nicer than he did me. If anybody else were to ask him a question....he would not think about ignoring them and staring at the TV set and never giving them an answer. So, I had decided that I was going to start showing him how it felt to be asked something and be totally ignored as though he wasn't on planet earth. Want to know how he answered me that time? He said...and I quote, "Oh, I don't do you that way EVERYTIME"! So, I very calmly told him, "Ok, then I won't treat you that way EVERYTIME, I'll just treat you that way SOME of the time". He got the message. He has not ignored me whenever I've asked him a question since that day. I should have done that about 40 years ago!

Anyway, I have come to the conclusion that I wasn't going through just MLC or some other isolated thing when I fell for the OM. (Oh, I don't think I really fall in love with the OM. I fell in love with what I wanted the OM to be!) But what I wanted to say here is this....I did tell my H at that time I had been emotionally "divorced" from him for a long time before the OM came into my life. He, however, told me he did not believe in that (emotionally divorced)......therefore, I couldn't be. So, back to my conclusion.....I still think I am emotionally divorced from my H (even if he DOESN'T believe in it). And, I have to look inside myself and admit that I do have the heart of a WAW.....still. I don't have the almost "panic" attacks of wanting the space so badly that I'm ready to walk out the back door. I have decided to stay....but that is why I can't get the "feelings" that I want....b/c I am still divorced from my H. I am still a WAW. And.......this is what I have been leading up to saying....I am not "in love" with him. I know that I'm not. Just b/c I decided to stay did not change that...and I think he thinks it did. Even though I told him last night in response to his "I love you" that I loved him, too.....I know I am not "in love" with him. I honestly don't know if he knows the difference....surly to goodness he does! I felt sorry for him when it was so obvious how badly he needed the phyical contact and some type of confirmation of love between us. It is so sad.....and yet it makes me have mixed feelings of feeling sorry for him and being mad at him for allowing this to happen. Oh, not all by himself.....but not all by myself did it happen either. He doesn't think he is to blame for anything that went wrong! How can he be so blind?

It makes me feel like this.....maybe it's NOT this way, but it is how it makes me feel, ok?.......Like, "Ok Sandi, you are the one who was always frigid and then became this fallen sinner who had a shameful on-line EA----while I, on the other self-righteous hand, have been the faithful, long-suffering, sex withheld, sweet husband that any woman would kill to have, that has done nothing wrong except love you in the 41 years of M."

Of course he doesn't say that.....I just feel like he is thinking it. Naturally, he would not agree at all.

So, ok, the "feelings" aren't going to come without the actions. That is what you are saying, am I right? So, is it like you have to decide, as Gary Smalley says, that you are going to love a person? Can you just "fall in love" with a person if you decide to do that? Because, I think I am going to have to fall in love with him in order to be able to have a successful "physical" relationship.....or any kind of successful relationship at all.

I DON'T WANT to hold on to the past! Please believe me when I say that I have tried to let go of it and not to think about it. What good would it do? I think my H has forgotten nearly everything that every happen.....the good and the bad. As I've said, I thought I had forgiven him......but if I have then why this resentment? I think we killed the love I had. I said WE killed MY love. I don't know why or how he still loves me. Oh, I know I'm beautiful, talented and sexy.....but that is just on the outside....it's the inside that counts...right? (Come on now.)

I need to go for a littel while. I'll try to come back later.

Hi Sandi, Resentment that builds after many years of marriage is hard to shake off. It stays with you as you plow through the next step in your marital recovery. You ended the EA, which was a huge hurdle, but now there are new hurdles to face, equally challenging. In order to reconcile, you are going to have to connect with each other on a regular basis, even if you don't feel like it. That's how it worked for me, anyway...my H and I had lots of resentment towards each other ( and like your H he wasn't one to verbalize his feelings) but we came together to agree to a weekly date night. In the beginning those evenings were awkward and difficult. But it was a start.

You are going to have to get used to carrying around the resentment for awhile as you work on all this. It's like climbing a mountain ( the connecting part) with a boulder on your back ( the resentment). But in time, you can get to a new place and you are in awe of the view. And the boulder somehow got taken down along the way.

Hey Sandi,
you had a very emotional post right now. totally understand you need to take a break.

When you come back.. i think you need to check out a non-db site:
marriage builders. It addresses a side of things that DB does not.
Your talk about wanting to fall "in love" with him, is the core of what their "love bank" principles are all about.

Ignore their forums (they're kinda nasty at times). Ignore most of the stuff they have. just go to the "basic concepts" part they have a link to, near the top of their pages, and then read up about the "love bank", and meeting "emotional needs".

(thats where the phrase comes from, fyi: lots of people here already know that, but sounds like you havent been "introduced" to that stuff $\:\)$

It describes pratical, experience-proven facts that yes, you CAN decide to (show) love to a person. But, whether you fall "in love" with them, is based on whether they show love back to you, in ways that fill your emotional needs.

They have a great "emotional needs" questionnaire, that you both should fill out. No more guesswork on him attempting to figure out what he is missing. it leads him through and helps him identify things more clearly.
He really "doesnt know". but this will help him figure it out.
It will also help YOU identify what things YOU are missing... and then let your husband know them more clearly, if he is interested.

Marriage Builders Home page
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/index.html

Marriage Builders� Forms and Questionnaires on the left side of this page.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html

Basic Concepts, some terms.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

Marriage Builders� Discussion Forum!
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi01_forum.html

Marriage Builders� Radio with Dr. Bill & Joyce Harley
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Marriage Builders (MB) is a very rich resource.

Lou

ok, nitpiks.... sorry, i'm a bit compulsive :-}

Quote:

[husband said]
"I guess I would have to say that I never felt like you supported me".

I could write pages on top of pages of things that happen over the past decades that other people said that they would not have put up with and would have left him....even my own parents thought that over more than a couple of things that he did (and they loved him!) but I stuck by him and thought that was what I was doing.....showing my "support" for my husband.

actually.... that's not neccessarily "supporting him".

that's just "putting up with him". there's a difference. an important one.

it really wasnt/isnt about sex, Sandi. He actually opened up to you, and ACCURATELY described something that he needs from you.
You need to try to believe and understand him more. But when you cant understand, it's always good to ask about it here, like you just did $\:D$

As far as "not believing in emotionally divorced".. he could mean that he doesnt mean in adulterating the word "divorced".
Some people use "emotionally divorced" as an excuse to say, "well i'm divorced, so I can go screw someone else!". Not saying you do... just trying to explain his rejection of that phrase. I could actually have used similar wording to his myself, some years back. I also detest the phrase.

You would probably get better empathy from him, if you used the phrase "emotionally shut down" or something like that.

YOU... are doing really well. believe it or not. you are continuing to have an open dialog about issues about you, and between you both... AND, you have a husband who, while scarred, is still willing to give you love and affection. he is just a bit confused as to how $;\)$

I can see a wonderful future together for you both. You hang in there, and keep going along the positive path of progress you are following, and you'll get there $\:\)$

PS: GOOD JOB, on waiting extra long, for him to reply!!

talk to you monday...

PPS: you have no idea how long it took me to get to my current "give affirmation" habits... one of my wife's major complaints is that I dont affirm her enough. I am not this way by "base nature". it takes lots o practice and forethought. (an I do it a WHOOOLE lot better when writing in forums, than in person!!! sigh.) So there's some hope for your husband $;\)$

Cemar2,

I don't know what to do to help him emotionaly connect b/c he doesn't know how to express what he needs. In the early years all he could say was "more sex".....now he doesn't know what to say at all. Do you have any suggestions what to do for a man that honestly doesn't know how to tell me what he wants? If he can't express how I have failed to fulfill his emotional needs, how can I know what to do?

I am open to suggestions.

Thanks DomR......for all your hard work (posting) you have done this week. I actually have known about the Marriage Buiders site and it is very good (except the message board). I have encouraged several people to go there also. But you made it very easy by posting all those links.....thanks.

You have been a great help and I know you put a lot of time and thought into what you said to me each time.

Now YOU go have a good weekend and be ready to come back Monday.

RealJourney...........Hi Sweetie,

I wanted to find the beginning of your stitch, but I couldn't. Can you tell me where to go or else kind of give me a quick summary of what is going on?

I feel a connection with you and would appreciate hearing from you more often. I repect the things you have said and take it to heart.

Thanks

Sandi,
The people here on SSM are the greatest. Yes, they'll sometimes (often maybe) tell you things you don't want to hear, but they'll also help you muddle through the mire IF YOU LET THEM. I think you'll find SSM more pro-marriage than pretty much anything else out there, including some so-called marriage counsellors.

Hi Sandi, Thank you for the kind words. I started posting here in May '04 as InherJourney, then more recently as NewJourney, and now, of course, it's RJ. It's been a long and strange trip, but the Reader's Digest version is that H and I decided, after being in a miserable marriage for many years, to work on being happy together. It sounds simple in theory...just an attitude change...but getting two people to agree to be on board, fully, at the same time...well, let's just say that H and I nearly killed each other in the process!

A change in attitude is really the whole key, and it begins with you. You have to resolve your ambivalence...figure out what you really want and go for it. After you go through MWD's SSM book, I suggest next in line to read, if you haven't done so already, is Passionate Marriage by Schnarch.

Once again, I admire the strength it took to detangle from OM and sort things through in reality. You have given up OZ, but you may discover that you have the power within you to make your marriage feel like you are truly home.

xo, Journey---who always wanted a pair of ruby slippers

Sandi, as for the not supporting stuff, I will say this. The same was said to me by my husband. One of his reasons for cheating and leaving the marriage.

You may have be floored by your husband's comment but for him that is how he perceived it to be. Maybe you need to get into the specifics with him. Ask him what he wants and needs to feel supported.

Hi GGB, RJ and Trip.....good to hear from you all again.

I am having another bad day...physically. Pain level very high today. I did get my SSM book in the mail this morning and am anxious to start reading it as soon as I can focus. I came in to the computer to change chairs for a while and to check any new posts.

Last night and this morning's pain was bad enough that it was bringing tears. My H was sweet and wanted to do something for me....however there really isn't anything he can do. He kissed me on the shoulder and laid his head over on my arm and it was sweet, but my "old" feeling of wanting to reject his touch surfaced and I was mad at myself for that. God, I just don't understand myself. Why do I not appreciate it when he does want to touch me? If and when he did ignore me when I was suffering so badly....it hurt my feelings...but then when he tries to show me how badly he feels that I am hurting....my skin nearlly crawls at his touch. God knows I don't "want" to feel like that. That is why I am here seeking help. That is why I thought I was adnormal for so many years.

The majority of the posts I have read have been from the people that love and despartly need the touch of the spouse. They crave the physcial nearness of the mate. I have laid in bed and cried from the lonliness of being without that very thing in my life. However, I know in my heart that all I have to do is make one move toward him....just one move....and he will melt. Why can't I do that? Why do I not want that? I am so discouraged at this that I want to give up. I know a lot of it is my pain and the discouragement that all this together produces it....but I am so down today b/c of the old familiar feelings of .....I guess "repell" is what I'm thinking. He doesn't deserve that from a woman. He should have somebody that can respond with warmth. That is why I don't know if I can "force" myself to do any "assignments" that doesn't have the feelings beforehand.

Maybe when I read the book I will feel better. But, if you have anything to offer....I would appreciate it. In the meantime, I have got to go move around a little while and then try lying down againg. I'll check back later.

Good morning all. I just need to journal right now, so be patient with me. Hopefully, I'll come back and read this when I need it....if nobody else does or not.

I am feeling depressed....which is common for me when I have a bad "flair" with the Fibromyalgia. The pain level is still up today and I don't know if I will be able to make it to church or not. It is only 5:30 a.m., so maybe by then....just have to see.

I have been up for a long time already and have been going back over some posts. Isn't it sad here in the SSM? It is just sad that one has LD and the other has HD or one "seems" to love more than the other. But, nobody wants to "settle" for what they have at the present. With that in mind, it brings me to what I am thinking this morning.

Now, before anyone throws up their hands and starts to scream....I'm not going to contact the OM....ok? But while reading the posts and thinking about a statement one made about the W feeling sexually "dried up" made me think of myself before I met the OM. If you have followed any of my posts you have probably seen where I mentioned several times that I thought something was "wrong" with me b/c I didn't seem to be like women are these days....the "Girls Gone Wild" type. If females are REALLY that way...I was born in the wrong time frame for sure! Maybe it all goes back to how we were raised or how society looked at sex at the time we were growing up....I don't know. As I have said before, I think the movies, etc., have played a large part in how people have changed their viewpoints and certainly standards.

Anyway....about what I was going to say about me, the OM, sex, my M, etc. The desire to have "feelings" is strong. To feel nothing is so sad. That was the state that I had been in for a very long time. As you probably have read, I have never had a fulfilled sexual experience with my H. I don't actually remember being very sexually excited before or during any times that we had sex....except the last couple of times that we ML. I was actually beginning to enjoy it and even thought at one point that for the first time...ever....I might even climax. Wouldn't that be wonderful (I thought) and then our M would take on a whole new meaning! We would be like newlyweds. Ha! Was I ever in for a surprise! That was the last time my H touched me intimately.....eleven years ago. Anyway, I met the OM on line and he talked my "love language" and I discovered that I was not "dead" after all. The hardest thing I have had to do is to decide to stay with my H--and to do this knowing that I may never feel "alive" on the inside again. It was almost like saying good-bye to the possiblity of any sex life ever happening for me. Now, some of you will immediately think...."Well, with that attitude, you will never have one, for sure!"....b/c of the having to stay positive attitude thing, etc. Some people that are very young would probably think, "My God, you are 60 years old.....give it up, woman!" (lol) Yeah, it would be easier, I guess, if I could do that. Maybe, that is what I should do....just give it up and try to get back into whatever kind of R I had before the OM came on the scene.

Let me think here about that. Just what was that R anyway? Dead.......comes to mind pretty fast. Lonely.....yep, that too. And of course....no physical contact at all, but that is what led to the "dead" and "lonely". You know, if it had not effected my other areas of life....maybe I could go on and accept it and just give up on any dreams of ever having the "contentment" that I crave in a R. I'm trying to look deep inside myself this morning and see what it is that I really want in a M. What if my H was never able to have sex again? Would I turn my back and leave him? No, I doubt seriously that I would ever do anything close to that.

Let me stop and tell you all something that I have known that has happen to couples...that I know personally. In their young marriage, the H was HD and the W was LD and a lot of problems came from that. In fact, some of those H's even threaten to leave the W b/c of the lack of satisfaction that he received from the sexual R. I know of one man that even made the statement that was why he got married....was to have sex! (Remember, that was several decades ago.) Then, in each case, after the couples got older and the H was not able to perform due to ED (or some other physical problem) the W would just be so patient & loving, and never threaten to leave him, nor complained about not being satisfied... and you know what everyone of those wives said? "I understand". Don't you find that a little ironic? Isn't life strange how the tables can turn on us? What if the W felt like reacting to the H and treating him the way he had made her feel in their early years of the M when "she" was the one that was having the sexual problems? But, as I made the statement once before, society seems to have compassion toward the man with ED, etc. But gives the female hell for being frigid. There goes that resentment again. I think that is why I DID feel resentment in just one of many areas of my life. I felt like at long last I was going to be "normal" and my H and me was going to have a "normal" sex life.....and then he just stopped without a word. I thought, ok, so he must have ED. But when he found out about OM....he informed me that he didn't, so what was the past eleven years all about? Oh, I forgot....he was waiting on ME to start the dance. What the hell? Here I was about to climax for the first time in almost 30 years....and he stops? I thought I was showing patience and understanding by not putting pressure on him to have sex....LIKE HE HAD ALWAYS DONE TO ME! I don't know if I can stand the irony of all of this! It took loosing me to OM before he told me he could still have sex? I don't get it...I just don't get it. I tried for decades to get this man to just "talk" to me, but he wouldn't. Then when he nearly looses me to the OM.....I am the one that feels shame and I am the "bad guy" to my kids.

Okay, back to what do I want from my MR? When I was asked that back at some time when I first came on board here, I answered with the word...."passion". I wanted to feel passion! At the time, I'll admit that I was primarly thinking in sexual terms. However, I would like to just feel 'passion' towards life in genreal. I watch my six year old granddaughter. Oh, what a joy she is to observe. That is the way she sees life....through eyes of passion. Everything is so exciting to her....regardless of what it is or how simple is may seem to us. She just loves life! I look at her and I want her to always feel that way toward her life. I would give up mine in a second if it would be some kind of insurance that she could have that kind of life here on earth. But, I know it doesn't work that way.

When I look back over my life, I know I was very sheltered. I know I was loved and protected from the ungliness of the world. I was never abused. For that, I will forever be grateful. I watch movies of people that lived very "simple" lives and think how much more grateful I should be to have what I have today. However, there are areas of my life that are sad and "unfair"....and I will spare you the details of that. Everyone has those areas. I don't think anyone can escape them if they get to live very long on earth.

Most of us are the product of our decisions. Not everything, of course, is the result of the decisions WE made....but the most of our lives are. At least, that is what I believe. So, that brings me back to where I was when I asked what do I want from my MR? That is what I need to think about this week. But as I've been told....and I have even told some people this myself....our R will mostly be whatever we make it. I also believe a R is a two-way street. So, it helps when both parties are working toward the same goals. But, when you feel that there is only one of you working....then what? Do you just give up? Or, do you make the most of what you have?

Isn't that the way it is in everything about life? I am angry and resentful and I confess that before God. I don't want to be that way...it is poison. I feel sad for time lost. I think that is what I resent the most....lost time. Perhaps, that is what kind of threw me into a MLC at a late date.....I woke up to realize that here I was about to be 60 years old and had lost my youth, beauty, a good part of health, most of my life was behind me instead of in front of me, most of my dreams had been shot to hell, and oh yeah....probably any chances of having experiences of what an exciting sex life would be. Oh, I know, you think I'm having one of those pity parties. Well, maybe I am. Just trying to talk it out here. That's what we have to do to start to heal, isn't it? That is what I want to do.....I want to heal. I want to be happy........that is what all of us here on this board wants...to be happy. Most of us, well, I guess ALL of us want to be happy with our spouse or we wouldn't be here.

As usual, my post today has been a long one. It has taken me about an hour and a half to write it. It was to myself and anyone that wants to read it. I pray to God that each of us can find our way to contentment and making the most of what we have in life.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

...But, as I made the statement once before, society seems to have compassion toward the man with ED, etc. But gives the female hell for being frigid. There goes that resentment again.

Well, you should drop that resentment; its entirely unfounded. I've seen you mention it a couple of times now, and I feel compelled to pipe in...

If there's any "compassion" at all toward those with ED, its becuase its source is almost always phisical, whilst being "frigid" is a choice. Perhaps the existstance of medications such as viagra and its derivatives contributes to this inaccurate assesment that "society" has tried to "do something" for these poor men...well, that, too, is unfounded, because the effects of these medications were nothing but a serendipitous (yet completely un-intended) side-effect of an attempt to treat a different problem. Kind of like Jed Clampet striking oil when he was only looking for supper.
...and then one day, he was shootin' for some food
and up from the ground came a bublin' crude....
No one at "drug-co" was out on a crusade to rid the world of this terrible scourge against men. They simply bumped into it, and decided (wisely) to sell their "mistake". Lots of drugs get discovered that way, actually. But anyway, while this is a big boon to many, it could also be considered a bust for those of us who can't take this kind of medication, because if anyone ever was going to try and find another way to solve this problem, they ain't likely to keep trying, now. But I digress...

Now, I don't mean to imply in any way, shape, or form that there aren't perfectly legitimate, physical causes for female sexual dysfunction, including "inhibited sexual desire"...but that isn't being "frigid". Being "frigid", in my mind, is the conscious, intentional witholding of affection toward a spouse or "significant other"...stubbornly clinging to their assertion that their level of desire is correct, and appropriate, and that their partner's objections are unfounded, illegitimate, and that they're basically "just being a pig and should go take a cold shower." completely dismissive of their partner's feelings.

A frigid person doesn't want to have sex;
A person w/ ED typically becomes aware of the problem because they're TRYING to have sex; They WANT to have sex, and can't!!!
do you see how not only are these 2 conditions not alike...they're complete OPPOSITES??!!!

perhaps you were "frigid"...or perhaps you were mislabellled by yourself or someone else. Doesn't matter, at this point. I think what is most difficult for women to understand is the depth of emotional pain that results from ED. There really isn't anything in the female world that can compare. (and I'm not just making this up; Lil, a wise, 60-something woman on this board has said that its "impossible" for women to understand). One thing thats for sure, though, is that HD women most certainly DO understand the pain of rejection from their LD hubbies. And that can be "key" irt ED...Its bad enough all by itself, goodness knows. but your REACTION to it...well...that could cause a whole bunch of hurt, the likes of which you can't even imagine.
So think about that. And actually, I'm not completely clear on whether or not your H actually HAD ed, or not...But one thing that is crystal-clear is that he absolutely had a whole bunch of pain...a pain that hurt SO much, he would give up having sex, --permanently--to avoid repeating it. Think about the source of that.
Sounds to me like your sitch is the result of much mis-communication and misunderstanding, which lead to mis-directed anger and resentment, and that is the knot in which you currently find yourself bound.

Sandi2 Some people that are very young would probably think, "My God, you are 60 years old.....give it up, woman!" (lol) Yeah, it would be easier, I guess, if I could do that. Maybe, that is what I should do....just give it up and try to get back into whatever kind of R I had before the OM came on the scene.

I get a similar line from BB about the sex part but she doesn�t want to give up the hair, back, and foot rubs.

The give it up is not realistic. It is almost like believing everyone�s retirement age should be 65. Well I know people that are basket cases at 40/45 yr of age. I had an uncle that planted trees, gardened, shoveled snow, and had the nicest yard for several blocks. All work that he did when he was 90.

Sandi, you, BB and even I have to put the thought �your NN (theoretical number/age) years old, give it up� out of your and my head. Sex is what you make of it and how you feel about it. If someone else thinks sex stops at a certain age, let him or her live like that when they are that age. I bet what they think now isn�t going to be what they think when they are 60 or NN.

I saw too many Ann Landers articles that said, women don�t like sex that much and just want to be held/listened to. Some women want an /Ann Landers article life. Some men want that too. The problem for me, was BB thought that is what she wanted 10 years after we were M, and I bought into the idea men were over sexed and needed to back off being as sexual with their W.

I bought into the idea it I was being pest, that there was something wrong with my sex drive, that my sex drive caused some of our M problems. One alternative was to work more. Sorry, that backfired on me.

If there's any "compassion" at all toward those with ED, its because its source is almost always physical, whilst being "frigid" is a choice.

Now, I don't mean to imply in any way, shape, or form that there aren't perfectly legitimate, physical causes for female sexual dysfunction, including "inhibited sexual desire"...
I have to agree with most of what CAC posted. His first frigid comment sent me into Woh dude, back off and his second frigid explanation made me thing, OK, that is much better

I still don�t like the term frigid so I would not have used it. I don�t think frigid is a deliberate choice

Sandi, I will say, there was a lack of understanding in your M. I see guys thinking gals are so different from guys and guys thinking gals are mostly alike, so if he acts a certain way with one gal and is successful, that way of acting should work with the next gal. What works the first time should work the 50th. time.

Cac4 "...stubbornly clinging to their assertion that their level of desire is correct, and appropriate, and that their partner's objections are unfounded, illegitimate, and that they're basically "just being a pig and should go take a cold shower." completely dismissive of their partner's feelings.
That happen to you too? No way!

Cac4, I couldn�t have said it better. If you write this phase again modify that their level of desire is correct to that their level of desire and timing is correct,

Sandi, I am not being critical of anything you say. I have great empathy for you and your H. I do listen to the content of your posts to better understand my M when a part seems to apply to my M to BB. She doesn�t have Fibromyalgia, but has a few similar symptoms. I know life sucks at times. She switched BP meds last week and is having some problems (a common occurrence) with the new med or something else. Switching is hard on her and me in a roundabout way.

one thing that is crystal-clear is that he absolutely had a whole bunch of pain...a pain that hurt SO much, he would give up having sex, --permanently--to avoid repeating it.
I can relate to that Cac4. I have been in and out of that state many times.

It isn�t just a male thing. It just as easily can be a female state of mind.

My best advice for today is hug till you are satisfied.

Lou

Sandi - if I may just jump in here for a minute - I know nothing about the history of your illness and what you may have tried, so forgive me if this is complete a$$vice, but have you ever looked into tricyclic antidepressants? For whatever reason, those "older" antidepressants like amitriptyline (not the SSRIS) seem to be able to modulate certain chronic pain syndromes by acting on serotonine, norepinephrine and acetylcholine pathways in the brain.

Some of the newer drugs that act on the same pathways (like duloxetine and venlafaxine) might also help and have less side effects.

There's some belief that fibromyalgia may be caused by reduced serotonine levels, and that the antidepressants lift them. It's interesting that the doses needed to improve fibromyalgia are much smaller than the ones used to treat depression.

It's hard to be upbeat about anything when in chronic pain, let alone be "objective" about one's sitch. If it's something that you haven't tried yet, I recommend taking it up with your doctor, soon. Good luck.

Thank you Southern Girl for your concern for me. It seems that I have tried that med some years back. I have been on so many different kinds until it is beginning to get hard to remember all of them. I have been thinking a lot today about talking to the doctor about anti-depression meds again. I said I would never get back on them again....but I may have to. There is something about the Fibromyalgia that works on the nervous system and even when the pain itself has lowered....it is like I just want to cry and can't deal with the world. It all sounds so .....ugh! Those are the times that I really feel the need for help with depression.

Perhaps I shouldn't have posted this morning when I was feeling so down....it certainly didn't help anyone for me to do that, but I thought that was what we were suppose to do as a way of self-help therapy (the idea of journaling). Anyway, I am going to give a lot of thought to the response I got. I realize that there are many on the board that have a much higher degree of education than I and are much more equipped to choose the appropriate terminology and I appologize if I failed to use the correct medical words in expressing my hurt. It apparently offended some and that was not my intention at all. It has certainly given me much to think about.

Isn't it sad what we human beings do to the ones we love when we are so hurt? In our pain, we lash out and can't see how deeply we cut the very one that means the most to us. Deep hurt comes out though us in all types of "packages".....but when it is opened up..it is still "pain".

Well, this morning I felt so hopeless and was about ready to just give up. Tonight, after reading some of your posts (and some from way back)....I am more determined in my heart to try to show my H my love for him. I don't know why that seems difficult for me--and b/c it is...that concerns me a lot. However, if love is a decision....as some writers claim it is...then I must decide to do that.

I pray that this week will be one of hope and encouragement for us all.

Sandi2
Perhaps I shouldn't have posted this morning when I was feeling so down....it certainly didn't help anyone for me to do that,
Who said it harmed anyone? I didn't see any harm in your post.

I thought that was what we were supposed to do as a way of self-help therapy (the idea of journaling).
You are, feel free to journal. Most of us do it.

I realize that there are many on the board that have a much higher degree of education than I and are much more equipped to choose the appropriate terminology and I apologize if I failed to use the correct medical words in expressing my hurt.
Well, first off, you write well. I think you express your feelings well.

Isn't it sad what we human beings do to the ones we love when we are so hurt? In our pain, we lash out and can't see how deeply we cut the very one that means the most to us.
Someone like me with a few similar traits or situations as your H has, I can be a little sensitive. But I post so you might see what your H might be thinking or might want to say, but he doesn't say it.

Some of the things you post, I play with the ideas and see if it applies to BB.

....I am more determined in my heart to try to show my H my love for him.
WTG ^5. Think, small steps are good.

However, if love is a decision....
Sometimes it is only a decision, with no payback in the near future.

Lots of people here do things not because they feel like it, but because it is the right thing to do.

Of course that can be over done too.

Lou

Originally Posted By: sandi2

There is something about the Fibromyalgia that works on the nervous system and even when the pain itself has lowered....it is like I just want to cry and can't deal with the world.

Yes, that's it, exactly. The two seem to work through similar mechanisms in the brain, which isn't all that surprising. There are only a few transmitters that express pretty much all of our human functions and emotions. Some are bound to overlap.

If you've had problems with antidepressants before, skip the amitriptylin. Try one of the newer mixed reuptake inhibitors like venlafaxine (brand name Effexor). It has a better side effect profile.

I apologize for the medical-ese. If you don't understand something, ask. It has nothing to do with your level of education or ability to write. This is a really complex science that even the experts are only beginning to understand.

I think it's extremely important that you get back on meds, and hopefully experience less pain, better sleep, and, resulting from that, much more mental engery.

Sandi:

You have this fantasy with the OM going. He is feeding your LL, which you like. On top of this, the newness factor is happening, which means that your body is producing chemicals that cause FAKE desire for the OM. In 2-3 years, you would most likely revert back to being LD even with him. So don't get deceived by that.

I know of one man that even made the statement that was why he got married....was to have sex! Actually, that would be normal. Think about the whole dating process, the main objective of dating (even lifelong relationships) is to win the desire of the other person. We don't date to win the love of the other person, we date to win the DESIRE of the other person. If you know the person you are with does not desire you, then you STOP dating them. THIS DOES NOT CHANGE ONCE YOU MARRY. From a man' point of view, most everything we do is done to win the desire and respect of our wives. Desire is expressed by the women WANTING us, by sexual desire. So, in effect, men marry for sex. When we DON"T get this, eventually we must shut down, because it becomes unbearable to be the one and ONLY one in a realationship that actually desires. There are very few things in life that a women can do to HURT a man that is worse then being LD for him.

But back to the original question I had for you, How are YOU going to emtionally connect with him using HIS LL. All this TALKING stuff is for YOU, not for him. HE needs to focus on the talking stuff, what am I trying to get is for you to understand what YOUR focus needs to be, and it won't involve talking. And he really does not need to TELL you, cause I think that you already know what he needs.

Hiya Sandi
I'm back from my weekend. And it was a pretty good one!
I got to spend half a day with my wife and children at an observatory, even though it was "her" weekend. And one or two other nice things, too. like, she agreed to go on our third "family weekend" trip, since we've been separated (back in june 2006)
No talk of anything like reconciliation. It was just nice time together.

I have some positive thoughts on what you wrote over the weekend...

Quote:

Oh, I forgot....he was waiting on ME to start the dance. What the hell? Here I was about to climax for the first time in almost 30 years....and he stops [having sex any more]?

Sandi... you just had bad marital timing.
I unfortunately fell victim to that in my marriage, too.
The first half, my wife was trying to put everything in, but I was holding back. The second half, I was trying to put everything in, but she was holding back $\:\($
If we ever manage to get in sync, though... I know that we can have a FANTASTIC marriage... and I'm pretty sure that you can, too!

Quote:

When I was asked that back at some time when I first came on board here, I answered with the word...."passion". I wanted to feel passion!

I think what you're saying is, that you want to be "in love".
You said that you had "read" the marriage builders stuff...
Now how about actually following it? $;\)$

If you've spent some time reading the accounts of people there, then you'll know how true it is, that you can build that kind of romatic feeling up, by plan and design. It's counter to what TV tells us every day.. but it's the real deal, not a fantasy, and most importantly, it can be yours.

I'm sorry that you feel so badly about him touching you. I guess that's a pretty strong indicator that I was right on the money about the WAW stuff $\:\($ but all is not lost.

Ok, he's lousy at the verbal stuff. So figure out the #2 and #3 things that are top for you, and coax him into giving them to you. (By ASKING for them, and telling him how much they mean to you. repeatedly!)

Then, if you choose to allow him to do them for you... then maybe after a few weeks, you will feel more friendly towards him.

(Hmmm.. I wonder if you are feeling anti-touch, to trick yourself into denying him "yourself", to basically punish him ?
I think there's a bit of punishment and resentment going on for you. If so.. an important question is, what will it take for you to forgive him?

Quote:

most of my dreams had been shot to hell, and oh yeah....probably any chances of having experiences of what an exciting sex life would be.

you're talking yourself out of being happy again :P
I think that, just like most women, you want to feel passion, AND you want to feel connected to the person you are with. Which means that, if you choose to forgive your husband, and the two of you really work together, at taking care of each other, that you will have the best possible sex imaginable, if you get into a truely loving moment, with the man you have known for 30 years.

To quote some famous MC: "the best sex in the world, is married sex" $\:D$

The "new fling" may have the max hormones pumping around the body, but married sex gets the emotional heart running as well $\:\)$

PS: yeah, men usually marry for sex.
One of the reasons I got married, was so that we could live together, so that we could have more sex together

Hi Sandi, Hugs to you for not giving up and staying the course. Todya is a new day.

I feel the need to chime in about the anti-depressants. I've also tried severla of the AD's in the past ( for depression) and didn't have good results. The SSRI's made me feel " foggy" and lowered my libido and ability to O. Wellbutrin( the dopamine increaser) was good for my sex drive but didn't help the depression. So, for a long while, I stayed away from the med route.

Recently, having the stress of watching my father go through life threatening illness, made me re-think the antidepresants. I went on a low dose of Effexor and it has helped a lot without having any sexual side effects. Effexor and Cymbalta work on both norepinephrine and serotonin and are called SSNI's. Cymbalta's whole add campaign is that it helps with the physical pain of depression ( their slogan is " depression hurts"). IMO, you'd do yourself a favor looking into these meds.

Next topic...In your talks with OM, how often did he hear you in pain over the fibromyalgia? Did he see you on those days you just wanted to crawl under the covers and not be bothered by anyone? OM is a fantasy, without the regular " intrusions" of life. And as a fantasy, he will activate those chemicals in your body to produce the feeling of passion you so desperately want. As Cemar says, eventually this fix will dissipate...better to come up with a long term solution, one that doesn't cause emotional turmoil for others.

Have you started reading SSM? MWD is one of those writers you mentioned who steer you away from the " love is a feeling" way of thinking. In the beginning of my journey here, I kept repeating her words to myself that " love is a choice." It helped.

Keep at it, Sandi. Maybe you don't have the formal education of some, but you are certainly articulate and intelligent.

Dear Cac4, DIY, and Cemar2,....oh and Southern Girl too,

I want to thank you for your comments. First of all, I feel badly about the statements I made regarding ED. I was off base there and should not have said what I did out of my resentful attitude. Secondly, I do truly appreciate the fact that you are educating me about how the LD W is the reflection of her lack of desire for her H and how that directly affects him. I have read a lot of books over the years, but apparently I have not been reading the right ones. I wish somewhere along the way that information would have been spelled out for me and maybe, just maybe, it would have helped me while I was younger. Perhaps psychology would have helped me...I don't really know. I have never known what my problem was...I just knew I had a "problem" and felt to blame for the lack of sex in the M. Being accused of being frigid does not "help" the woman. I don't know if it is truly a choice of if my problem would have a different label. Since we were not financially able for me to seek out professional help, in the early years, it went undiagnosed. Back then, in small rural towns like mine, women just discussed such things with their family doctors.....which never accomplished anything except being put on the birth control pill. That only took care of the fear of pregnancy, it didn't take care of the LD.

I feel there is a lot of misunderstanding between my H and me about that lack of information we have received down through the years, plus our misconception of how the other one is "suppose" to feel or act. I knew I loved my H when I married him. On our wedding night, being the first time for both of us, we were nervous, but everything went ok....except for one minor thing....I did not feel any "repsonse" to his touch or to the sex act itself. Now, that is not to say that it was distastful to me or that I did not like it....but I was "surprised" to discover that I did not have any feelings responding to his touch. The next morning, I was anxious to repeat the act when we woke up and I guess he was also b/c we immediately began to ML. He, however, was not able to perform. Well, I knew immediately that he was embarrased, so I just said something about let's get some coffee and let it go at that. We sat around all day without him touching me in a sexual way. We watched TV! Does that sound normal to you? Well, I didn't really know what "normal" was b/c to tell you the truth, I didn't know much about men at all. Thinking back to it now, I'm sure he was devastated that he was not able to perform and was afraid to risk it again. When we went to bed that night...he could not get an erection again.....nor the next night....nor the next. This went on for .....well, I can't really remember now, but I just remember him telling me to touch his penis to make him hard.....and being the "blushing" bride that I was...I needed instructions. That did the job, however, and then I got pregnant! So, that shows you how little we had been told before we were married. I look back and wonder why on earth my mother did not talk to me about preventing pregnancy!

We really got off to a bad start, and was living under a strain being in the (small) house with his mother. We were never alone the first six months of marriage...which is not good. Our fist year was not good and we certainly were not ready for a baby when we had been married barely over nine months. I have already told about the painful intercourse during my pregnancy, but I did not tell how I felt immediately after the birth of our child. I was ready for sex! I guess the right hormones kicked in for me...but I don't remember it lasting too long b/c other problems became larger than the bedroom issues at that time. However, it carried over into the bedroom. It was over 40 years ago, so some of the time slots gets a little foggy, however, I just remember it always came down to sexual issues with my H. He thought that if the sex was more often then the other problems we had would disappear. I tried to leave him for about a week and was guilt-ridden into going back to him (long story). At that time, I could not bare for him to touch me. I think a lot of resentment was already into place and that particular move made it even more intense. If only we had went to C then, it may have saved years of pain for both of us. Nobody even suggested it to us. We were just kids (18 & 22 when we married). You think somebody in our families would have said something about it. I didn't even read a book then. I don't think they wrote about the subject content as readily back then as they do now. At least, I personally didn't see any books, but then I don't remember "looking" for anything. I never remember anything being talked about on the TV then. These days, it is very common to watch a talk show with all of these issues discussed....but not back then. They would have been kicked off the air. Young people would be shocked to know how censored the subject matter was back then....even certain words could not be said. Television has come a long ways in 40 years and has been a big help to so many people by giving them the proper information. I regret not having it then.

By telling you all this (and I'm not just talking to you three), it is in no way to justify myself, merely trying to explain to any younger people, especially, how things were at the time I got married. We were not given information openly like it is today. It was more "secretly" talked about. Never, ever, would a school classroom teach on sex. I remember when that became a big issue when the first suggestion about sex education came up. Of course, I was already married then, but I was in favor of it.

After being told, or implied that I was frigid over many years.....it did cause resentment. I think it is hard for me to "get over it" b/c I wanted to have a good sexual relationship with my H. If it is a "choice"....then I must not be frigid. The one C that I went to talk to about this...told me that I certainly was not frigid and that it was all my H's fault. Well, I didn't go back to her. That would be the easy way out....to say it is all his fault. But, I can't do that and I never have believed that it was all his fault. However, I cannot say that I believe it is all my fault either. Yes, there has always been a communication problem between us.....about everything. He won't talk and I may misunderstand him when he does try to say something....I don't really know. I gave up trying to talk to him a few years ago. B/c it always reverted back to sex and we never seem to be able to work it out. I think the way he saw me and the way I saw him were probably both incorrect views.

After giving up and emotions seeming to be dead for a long period of time....it is very difficult to revive. He told me that he gave up a lot b/c of my health and that I always seem to feel so bad.....in other words, he just lost "hope". God, that makes me feel awful. That is why they say that a disease for one member becomes a family's disease.....it effects everyone. I know that was true with our daughter who got Type I Diabetes at 15. That placed even more strain on us b/c she went into rebellion like you wouldn't believe! For years, we went through hell on earth. Then our son became physically disabled (won't go into all of that), but I truly believe that is why I have Fibromyalgia. It is not a proven fact....just my thinking....but I believe it was caused from all the continued stress I went through for so many years. Everyone that I know personally that has Fibro.....has gone through years and years of stress without any let up. Some people get heart disease, some high blood pressure....we all are affected some way. My H had open heart surgery a few months after his mother died and I think it was b/c of all the pressure he was under from what she required of him, plus everything else that was going on at the time. Bless him, this has been hell for him......I know that. I have never denied that for a minute. Neither of us have handled our own personal problems very well. We have advised other couples how to handle theirs, but we don't seem to know how or what to do about our own.

So, my heart goes out to him.....and Cemar, I want to give him his LL....I really do. I want this body of mine to cooperate, also. I don't want to pretend that I desire him sexually. Should I do that in order to give him his LL? I am asking that earnestly, not being sarcastic, should I do that? I mean, I have been told to give him the instructions as to what I want him to "say" to me b/c words are my LL.....so should I pretend to desire him in order to give him his LL?

To Southern Girl, thanks for your concern also. I have been thinking a lot about talking to my doctor about AD. Although, I said I wouldn't take them again, I get so depressed and especially when the Fibro flares. I think for one reason, I feel like I let so many people down that depend on me.....Church, work, family, etc. That makes the pain and the depression a lot worse. I can't seem to deal. I feel like the doctors just have to experiment with me and that is scary. But, we have to do what we have to do. I taped a little note to myself on my mirror this morning (after I wasn't able to go into work) that said, "Rise to the Challenge". I was watching a old rerun of "Harm's Way" and that was said about a female officer that went through some bad stuff and they were wondering if she would be able to withstand the effect on her personally and do her job. That was Harm's answer, "She is an officer with people depending on her leadership and she will rise to the challenge". I hope I can.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

To Southern Girl, thanks for your concern also. I have been thinking a lot about talking to my doctor about AD. Although, I said I wouldn't take them again [..]

Why not? Have you had side effects when you were on them before? If so, do you remember which ones you took, and what were the side effects? Or do you just not like taking pills? Just curious what your reasons are!

Hey Sandi...

I'm going to say something that is going to be difficult for you to hear.
But, hopefully by now, you know that I'm only saying it because I care about you and your marriage.

Maybe you'll want to go scroll up and read my more cheerful post first, that you missed this morning, while you were posting your long one. Posting overlap again $;\)$

My intention in mentioning this, is in the hope that you will recognize what I am saying is true. because if you do, then maybe you can choose to let go of some resentment which is getting in your way.

Seems like you have a lot of resentment about being labelled "frigid". A whoole lot.

Thing is, though:

It was accurate. You were "frigid", by definition: You lacked desire for sex.
Another definition, in websters dictionary is, "b of a female : unable to achieve orgasm during sexual intercourse ".
That's accurate, too.

The term "frigid" has lots of implications, and sometimes implied potential blame. For my part, I dont think it was "your fault". But neither do I think it was a deliberate fault of your husbands, either.
As you have observed, you were both young, and completely non-informed.

Think about this: are you the most angry at your husband and others, for using the term? for "labelling" you? Or are you the most angry and frustrated at yourself, for "being that way"?
Are you displacing anger and frustration at yourself, onto those people who called out your issue?

"frigid" is just a term. A definition, of a person's mental state.
But it's not a disease. You're not "stuck with it".
And whether or not someone uses the term about you, doesnt make it true or false.
If you recognize that it is true, though... then you can USE it, to help you get to someplace else.

Something to think about, reguarding the use of labels:

If you were feeling absolutely horrible about yourself for months, and someone told you, "You're depressed. You are suffering from Depression".
Are you going to hate and resent that person, for "labelling" you with Depression?
Or are you going to look at what they said, examine yourself to see if it is true, and then go research anything you can find on "Depression", to see what you can do about it?

If anything.. the person actually did you a favor. The person using the term "Depression", didnt MAKE you depressed. It just gave a name for how you were feeling.
Humans NEED labels, to be able to organize things. In that fictitious situation, if that person never used the label of "Depression".. you may never know to go look up information about it.
Without a label, you would be lost for what to do about it.

Hope this is something helpful for you to think about.

Cemar,

Perhaps if you started acting like you were dating your wife again, rather than being comfortably married, things might change for the better?

(I tried to post this around noon today, but something happen to the computer and wouldn't send it through, so I did a little cutting and pasting. Will try again.....here goes)

Real Journey and DomR.....

Oh God, thank you so much for that encouragement. As you may has already read, I am home today. The Fibro has been really bad the past few days. Yes, depression hurts....badly. I think I may have already said this, but my pain level increases when I put the stress on myself, actually, by getting upset on my days that I can't work or go to church or family functions due to my flares. I am trying a technique on myself....lol. But, I have really just began to notice how the pain is worse when I get myself upset at feeling like I have failed in my responsibilities. I notice that when I am so bad....like this morning....and I have to call into work, I am nearly in tears. After making the decision to stay home (now this doesn't happen every time, mind you) the pain or tension in my body lets up a bit. It doesn't go away, but I notice it does let up a little bit. So, I think I am putting a lot on myself. So, I am trying to consciously calm myself down and just relax and tell myself that I can't help being sick. I don't know, it may cause me to "give in" too much, but I keep fighting it so much that I am putting a lot of pressure on myself. By "fighting"...I mean, I think I fighting it the wrong way. Does that make sense?

Regarding the Cymbalta, a lady at our church mentioned to me that the doctor put her on that when she was in so much pain and it did the job. She is one that never just comes up to a person to tell them something that personal, so it got my attention. However, any of that stuff worries my mom cause she saw how it did me in the past. But, I am going to talk to my doctor to see what he things about it. I really don't know it it was all the meds or the "other" stuff I was going through. I know I had more than one doctor to tell me that I was way over medicated and then they would hand me a prescription for two more meds! Go figure.

Okay, DomR, your weekend sounded really great! That makes my day, sweetie. It is always good medicine to hear great news. Like you said, even though no talk of the R went on, it was a good family time. And like you are always telling me....baby steps (lol). I know from the WAS's POV that if you were to always bring up the subject of the R, it would cause her to back completely away from you, so you are doing the right thing and in the right timing. "Timing" is everything! Man oh man, do I believe that! I think timing has been one of our worst enemies in our M. Just like you said, when he is "on"...I'm "off" and the other way around. I agree with you, if we can ever get "on" at the same time, I think we can have a great M.

I do want to clear any misunderstanding I may have left with any of you about the OM. I have cut him out of my life. Just wanted you to know that. I do, thanks to all of you, see it for what is was......now. I was in such a "fog" until I could not see it and did not want to see it. I wanted it! But, I wanted it to be like my fantasy. He, the OM, never saw me at my worst. One time he saw me when I didn't look so great and that was the morning after everything had hit the fan. Otherwise, I always made sure I had my make-up on and hair fixed, etc. I had that smile on my face and even when I wasn't feeling that great, I looked great....for him. That embarrasses me to admit it, now, but it is the truth.

While speaking so truthfully, I have begin to gain back some weight.....my H mentioned it last night. He has noticed that I've been eating a lot of sweets and thinks it contributes to my pain level. But, it makes me sad to know that I lost weight and looked good for the OM.....why can't I seem to do that for my H? As soon as I made the decision to stay with my H and cut the other man out of my life......it was as though my body gave way or maybe gave up. I can't get my brain to work the same. I try to tell myself to work just as hard for my H as I did for the OM....but it won't work. I guess, with the OM.....there was a challenge that isn't here with my H. As "imLin" told me......I don't have to win my H, b/c I already have him, whereas with the OM.....I was trying to win him and therefore had to look great and act great, etc. Makes very good sense to me, but I just wish it wasn't that way. I know I have mentioned this before, but my mother was never that way. She looked so great for my dad.....always. He treasured her and it showed through the way she took care of herself. Now, he has beem dead for 19 years, but she still looks beautiful and has never even thought of anyone else. I wish to God I had inherited that......whatever it is. I don't know if it is pride, self-respect.....I don't know what to call it. But, I know it is noon and I'm sitting here in my nightgown, and my H has just come home for lunch. What do you call that? Taking him for granted. That's what you call it. But what do you call whatever it is that my mother still has? Whatever it was.....her mother had it also, even after her H died. I admire both of them.

Hi Southern Girl,

Since I'm not at work today and trying to just stay off my legs, I guess we can play "tag" on the computer (lol)

Seriously, thanks so much for your concern. A lot of my emotional distress over the fibro comes from people (that uneducated about the disease) who has given me a bad time over it....mostly the ones I work with, therefore, I dread calling in sick. I was on about three-four different AD at once for a short period of time.....and of course with the pain med and sleep meds, everything combined....it was too much to function. But the first AD the doctor placed me on when I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia was Prozac. I knew nothing about it and stayed on it for years. The depression got worse. I went to the doctor in tears and said I needed help badly. He put me on something that I thought was a miracle. For about one week I felt as though I had be reborn. I honestly felt as though I was seeing the world for the first time in years. Then it wore off in about two weeks, and I was back to square one again. He tried something else, and something else, and I just wasn't getting anywhere. Finally, I went to a different doctor that I heard worked with a lot of patients with Fibro. She kept me on what I was on plus added Welbutrin. I could not tell it helped. All in all, the AD just made me feel......nothing. Like I was dead. I think it contributed to the lack of sex desire a lot! I mean....I'm talking....nothing at all!

I did talk to my H at lunch time and he thinks that I should get back on the AD. So, if that is the way he feels, then I will probably do it. However, it is going to be about three weeks before I can get in to see the doctor. Now, he said this after I told him the others made me not have any sex desire......so he knows I'm bad depressed. I guess he figured it didn't make much difference for him.....where the sex is concerned, and maybe living with me would be easier if I wasn't so depressed.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Meh to people who give you a hard time. It's all that "it's all in your head" stuff, yes? Yes, it IS all in your head. Everyone's pain is all in their head. We simply do not "feel" pain anywhere except in the brain. Whether you broke an arm, have fibromyalgia, or whatnot, it is all "felt" in the brain. That's why stress and anxiety can make pain worse.

It's a lot of fun to compare back MRIs with the level of pain people experience. You can have a perfectly-looking MRI and the person is in a lot of pain. Other people look like a truck just backed over them, and they feel nothing. The brain works in mysterious ways, and we are only beginning to understand pain.

The trick with antidepressants is: give them time, and don't give up. Sometimes a combination works. Sometimes one. All of them need several weeks to be effective. Keep going back to your doctor and ask him/her to adjust or change the meds if you're not happy, and don't settle for something that can be improved.

Attempting to live with a brain chemistry that's out of whack is like trying to walk with one leg. There is no "prize" for being the most long-suffering, and the most apt at enduring pain. Life is short, and it's much too short to be so darn hard.

I'm glad you're doing something about it. Let us know what we can do to help.

Thank you. I need that today. It sounds like you know where I'm coming from or else you are/have been in a like situation. I have let the attitude of those I work with bother me a lot. The main one has Lupus and she hardly ever misses work. I don't know how she does it. She goes everywhere and is involved in everything. She doesn't think anything is "really" wrong with me and has influenced that upon the others. Then one of the workers had breast cancer. She never had one minute of pain. It was discovered in very early stages, thank God, and she is doing fine. But, naturally, people think that if a person has cancer then they suffer....but there has been two that I have know personally that never had pain! Amazing. So, I'm sure I appear to be a big whimp! I can't help it. I suffered for 30 years before with a terrible back....still suffer, but that was before my fibro was diagnosed. Anyway, I have delt with pain for about 38 years. It does seem like it is getting a lot harder to deal with as I get older. That is what has amazed me about the Fibro.....I know I used to deal with back pain that was more intense than this kind of pain. For some reason...and I think it goes back to what is happening in the brain....this is totally different.

But, wow, it sure helps to talk to somebody that seems to understand.

Quote:

I did talk to my H at lunch time and he thinks that I should get back on the AD.

if you want your marriage to be right back where it was... then sure.

if you want it to improve... sounds like that is the absolute last thing you should do. (because of the way it messes with your sex drive. then again... maybe thats a positive thing right now.. hm)

Here's the thing, though, Sandi:

anti-depressants (supposedly) stop you from obsessing, and feeling so much emotional pain.

but, seems to me like marital recovery, is ALL ABOUT going through emotional pain, and to some degree, obsessing about how to make it better ('cause it takes that much drive, to go through the hurt it takes, to MAKE it better!)

I think if you're going to be messing with ADs, you might consider switching from a "doctor", to a "psychiatrist" who specializes in marital therapy also.
I think it's really important to have the person responsible for your "emotional medication", truely having a window into, and understanding, your current emotional situation.

Only trouble is... there's precious few around. most of them are just "counsellors" and "therapists".

-----------------

Something on weight gain:

Quote:

But, it makes me sad to know that I lost weight and looked good for the OM.....why can't I seem to do that for my H?

It's not a matter of "cant". its a matter of "dont want to", ya know. weight loss doesnt "just happen" to someone (unless they get clinically depressed or something).
It's a choice to eat better.

You've read MB stuff. So, instead of thinking about "winning" your husband.. how about reframing it in MB terms?
What about thinking about it in terms of, showing your husband love by meeting his "emotional need" for an attractive wife?

'course, unfortunately, the WAW part of you is probably going to say to yourself, " I WANT to drive him away... I DONT WANT him to touch me!" Are you hearing a little voice, or feelings inside of yourself like that?

If so... are you going to be controlled by your negative emotions? or by your positive ones?

Cue the fireside story of the shaman telling a youngling about the story of "two hungry wolves fighting inside of him: one good, and kind, and caring; the other angry, and hateful, and violent". The youngster asks "Which one will win?" and he replies, "The one that I feed".

Are you going to feed your WAW feelings? Or perhaps passively let the WAW devour and take whatever it can?

Or are you going to choose to "feed the other wolf"?

I know it's really hard for you right now. you're in a lot of pain.
Yet, it's also the "selfish" thing, to be good to your husband $\:D$

Dont you need, and want, someone to be with you through all of this?
There is no-one who cares about you more than he does. He is someone you can rely on. How about showing him that you appreciate that?

Side comment: you said that your skin crawled when he touched you. How do you feel when you touch him? Is it both ways, or just when he intiates touching you?

DomR....you have given me, once again, a lot to think about. What you say about me and the anger I feel even toward the word "frigid" is true. My mother was labeled "frigid"....I think I told about that. Probably her attitude toward sex influnced me to some degree. However, I remember clearly on my wedding day, when a conversation developed between my mother and I, and I replied that I did not feel that way about it at all. My parents had a good M.....but they did have bedroom problems....due to my mother being "frigid" in bed.

My SIL was having problems before I was even a part of the family and didn't know too much about what was going on....like I said, people back then didn't discuss those things openly. I found out later that when she talked to me about it that she was having what we would now call LD. Now she adored her H! That was very plain to see. He was her entire world! So, that was not the problem. I just rememeber him being the one that was dissatisfied and blaming her for being "frigid", and her crying over it. I don't know if it was every resolved or not...she got sick and died. Then, I come along with apparently the same problem......and yes, I am sensitive about it. That was the only word I heard back then. I never heard the terms HD and LD, etc. As I said, they didn't discuss such matters on TV.

I react to that word when I read it from men on the board. I feel the need to come to women's recue when their H's say some things. Maybe I feel a certain "unfairness" to it.....I don't know, really. However, I am going to think about what you and some others have told me the past couple of days.

You are right about the lack of information that my H and I had. I do agree with you about everything you said. I appreciate what you said, also. I shouldn't blame my H b/c he isn't any more guilty than I was. We both were young and didn't know what to do to help each other.....and I'm sure I didn't make it a bit easy for him. He probably would say that I was a "challenge"....lol....b/c he is a nice guy.

You see, I've told some things about him that did not protray him in the best light.....but then there are things about me that he could do the same way. Sure he has hurt me, but then....as it has been pointed out to me.....I have hurt him...a lot! I am trying to face some things about myself to see the truth the best I can and to see what I can do about it. I pray that it is not too late. I don't think it is. Even if we don't have an active sex life due to his health or whatever.....I won't us to be close and intimate in our hearts toward each other. BTW, I don't know if I ever answered the question that was asked of me about if he had ED or not. I really don't know, but he did ask the doctor if he could take Viagra and he can't due to the heart meds, etc. He had open heart surgery about seven years ago. I do know that the last few times we tried to have intercourse that he never got an erection. So, that is why I thought he backed off. He never talked about it whenever I brought it up. All he had to do was tell me that was it, but he never admitted it nor denied it. He just told me (after he found out about the OM) that he could still get an erection. I thought the timing was bad, but then timing has always been bad in our R.

Again, thanks to all of you. I want you to be honest and open with me about whatever you see in my attitude toward my health, sex, marriage,......whatever. It may hurt a little, but hey, I'm a big girl. If I dish it out, I need to be able to take whatever anyone wants to throw at me.

Seriously, Cemar, CAC, all of you......I am thinking about what you said....ok?

I don't know if you were frigid, Sandi. Reading your posts make me wince a little, and want to kick all the nostalgics that long for the good-ole-days where kids where sent into marriage with no idea of which side of the bed is up.

Sex isn't something that comes naturally to anyone. Everyone's awkward at first. There are, every year, cases of couples from "backwards" areas who think they can't concieve kids, only to find out that they didn't know they were supposed to have intercourse! So much for the sex "instinct". Sex is something you learn. Well, unless you're Mojo. ;-) You didn't know how and your husband didn't know how and neither of you were comfortable enough to just sit back and experiment. I don't think you ever had a chance to find out "what" you are. I think both of you were simply inexperienced.

Add the bad timing and the misunderstandings..... and let me tell you, another person can take something we say to heart that we never suspected. I had an experience like that with my dad. I made an offhand comment about something that gnawed at him for years, and I'd meant nothing by it. Yet he never told me.

The two of you need to communicate about all this. You'll probably be surpised at the things he carries resentment about, just like he probably knows little of what bothered you most. But since neither of you is a mind reader you'll never find out of you don't start talking.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I play an MD on tv in my spare time. $;\)$ Happy to be of use, and just as happy to answer any questions you may have. Good luck.

heh.. ED is just another "label". It's not a disease in and of itself. It's just a clinical label for "he cant keep it up" $;\)$

and.. even if he only "cant keep it up" with you specifically... that's still
"erectile disfunction"

You BOTH got hurt a lot, in your initial sexual encounters.
You havent recovered from it... and neither has he.
I think it's fairly clear that his problems in that area, all stem from those first few nights you had together. Thank you for being open about sharing that difficult time. It really makes things plain to see.

It might help you to consider that in some ways, he is hurt even worse than you about it.
You probably feel like you arent being a "good wife". And, that you're missing out on an experience that you deserve.

He, on the other hand, probably feels like he isnt even a man.

To give voice to negative , but still ingrained, unspoken social views:

If a woman is "frigid"... you can still have sex with her, she can still get pregnant, she can still....
If a man "cant get it up"... he's not really a man. After all...a man without a penis... isnt a man.

he's carried a LOT of hurt, and wounded self-image... for 40 years.
He's kinda soldiered on how he could. But his plea for you to drive things, I think was an attempt to reclaim some of that self-image. That at least you might "want" him.

There's a whooole lot written on that side of things..
(causes and solutions for psychological ED) Thankfully, i havent had to deal with that myself, so havent read it. you might take a look at it yourself sometime.

However, my "gut instinct" tells me that, if you ever find yourself in a place where you want to pursue that again.. you could help him recover from it, by first showing a genuine interest from yourself for "that part" of him... and then continuing to be interested and loving, without ANY disappointment, when his little trouper is too scared to perform.

[PS: "interest" in the form of, "hi, I like to hold you and be nice to you", not "I want you to perform"!! ]

After a whole lot of that over time... you could succeed at making yourself a "safe place" for him, in that area.
Right now, I dont he feels safe there, because he's too ashamed and embarrassed about it.

Bah. I have a habit of overwhelming people with "too much, too soon". I hope that wasnt too much for you to absorb for today $\:$$

Cheer up.. just try to file all this away... you dont have to "fix it all right now". Just know that all your marital problems... are solvable! There's not one issue you have, that hasnt been solved by countless couples over the years.
You can have a good marriage (and great sex, to boot $;$$ )

[PS: your conversation with your mother pre-wedding... mentally, you may not have "felt" that way... but it would seem that internally, you did. it's really completely expected, given your family history. It would almost be surprising if you didnt!
People often end up behaving and reacting exactly like their parent-of-matching-gender, despite themselves.

But it doesnt have to stay that way...]

DomR, You are right about few doctors in that catagory around here...for sure. I want to consider the health side and how it is going to effect that as well. I know it all works together with the emotions......especially with Fibromyalgia.....as I have talked about to Southern Girl. Anyway, I will do some checking......and some more thinking (lol), man, do I have alot of thinking and reading to catch up on this week.

You know, I think you are right on target about my WAW little voice inside me. If I can over-come that.....it will be great! I said before that I knew in my heart that the past eleven years....all I had to do was make a move toward him and he would melt. But....that WAW voice kept me from doing it. Man, is it powerful! I thought turning loose the OM was hard, but this will be much harder to do.

Oh, BTW, (for you Cemar), you were right about how I allowed the OM to feed my ego through my fantasy. Some of the girls beat you to that information on another forum. I have been able to see that and for a while I had trouble at night not fantasizing about him....but that has not happen in quite some time, so I hope I am past it. I hope that I can be one of the lucky ones that can get through the 3 month thing to get over OM. I don't know if that is true or not, but I'll let you know by the end of.......make that the middle of October. See? I've forgotten when I last made contact. Wow......it sure seems longer than that!

Ok, DomR.......about the weight. Gosh, I get tired of telling you how right you are all the time! (lol) Just kidding ya. I do need to try something to see if it effects my fibro or not like the sugar intake (beside loosing the pounds). I also read on one of the web sites about low fat and dairy.....that doesn't leave a lot, does it? Oh well, just like any other diet I've been on.

Oh my gosh.....a star! Well, thanks sweetie, you sure have made me feel better today. You would make a good doctor in real life!

Oh DomR, You beat all I've ever seen. How you can make me cry and laugh all in the same post.

Quote:

If a woman is "frigid"... you can still have sex with her, she can still get pregnant, she can still....
If a man "cant get it up"... he's not really a man. After all...a man without a penis... isnt a man.

God, that just breaks my heart. Boys grow up hearing things like that! It is just as bad on them as it is the things girls hear growing up. Kind of makes me think of what Southern Girl said in her last post to me. So sad what people think.

Do you really think he may have problems that go back to when we were first married? Dear Lord! Do you know that he never talked to anyone about that? Oh....and the worst mistake I ever made....besides moving in the house with my MIL.....oh God, I can't believe I'm telling this......but here goes. My dad came to see me one day b/c he was very perceptive and just knew something wasn't right. This was just a few days after we had been married. Well, I was such a kid and thought if my daddy asked me that I was suppose to tell him. Yep! I did! Then....oh it gets better......my dad goes to my H to see if he wants to "talk" about it! Dear God, did that ever blow up in my face! My H wouldn't even go anywhere around my folks for weeks! Can you believe I did that? How stupid! But that was what I thought I should do at the time.

My H had just lost his dad in late September and we got married around the first of December. That was too much too soon. Of course, I know that now! But then, I just wanted to get married! We had been engaged when his dad got cancer and my H had taken care of him during his sickness. After he died, we thought we might as well go on and get married. After my own dad died and I was in so much grief.....then I realized how awful it must have been on my H. But, he never said a word....he never talked about his dad when he died. He had three brothers, but he never talked to them about our sex problems, as far as I know. I had hoped he would talk to my dad.....but boy, did I ruin any chance of that happening!

Quote:

It might help you to consider that in some ways, he is hurt even worse than you about it.
You probably feel like you arent being a "good wife". And, that you're missing out on an experience that you deserve.

He, on the other hand, probably feels like he isnt even a man.

This hurts. Not b/c you said it, sweetie, but b/c I think you are right. Oh Lord help me. I have never had anyone to tell me these things before. Where have you been all these years?

Quote:

he's carried a LOT of hurt, and wounded self-image... for 40 years.
He's kinda soldiered on how he could. But his plea for you to drive things, I think was an attempt to reclaim some of that self-image. That at least you might "want" him.

This is the part that made me really cry! It hurts so bad.

But why did he act like he did those times I tried to dress up sexy and he said those things to me? It doesn't make sense to me. Was it just bad timing....again? You see, that was kind of the same thing that happen to me.....if you can understand what I'm trying to say. Those experience did something to me. Maybe not to the degree as his.......maybe it can't even be compared. I'm just wondering about it, that's all. I don't understand the reaction I got from him....unless it was just bad timing on my part.

However, you have certainly made me understand why he would "wait" for me to lead the way. It makes sense to me now. Instead of just saying that he was afraid of being rejected. That was what I was so tired of hearing. So, why did he react the way he did when I told him I would have sex anytime he wanted to? Why did he back away and say that wasn't good enough that he wanted me to "want" him? Wasn't I trying to show him that I loved him? Or, was he saying that he "knew" in his heart that I was just making myself available without the feelings? What do I do about that? Is that what Michelle teaches? "Do it anyway?" Won't he be able to tell? Isn't that what I was offering to do back then?

Don't worry sweetie, the rest of the post left me laughing, so I'm ok. But, dear Lord, you gave me a wallop! But, don't take that the wrong way......I just wish to God I had had that a long time ago! I have so much to think about.....and to pray about.

Thank you so much. I was going to ask if you were a minister, doctor, counselor, or just a good ole guy.........but that's not fair to you. Anyway, many, many thanks for opening my eyes to my H's needs. I only wished he had known how to tell me himself about 41 years ago.

Awww.. more "bad timing", on your part of telling your dad about it, i guess. Your heart was in the right place, though.
That's important.

It's really nice to hear about a wife who really did, and does, care about her husband, even though there were many mistakes that you both are struggling through recovering from.

To answer your question about your husband:

Quote:

So, why did he react the way he did when I told him I would have sex anytime he wanted to? ...
Or, was he saying that he "knew" in his heart that I was just making myself available without the feelings?

I think that's exactly it. Except as usual, he didnt "say" that.
If he actually said that he was "tired" of being rejected...
he didnt communicate that well. What he probably should have said, was "fear". But a "real man", doesnt tell his wife that he's afraid, yeah?
(note: a "real man" doesnt want pity about it, either!)

I dont think michelle covers this. (although I havent read "the sex starved marriage" book). Its more on the marriagebuilders side of things. About properly understanding "his needs".
If it was purely a "He wants sex more", then yeah, "do it anyway". Problem is.. that isnt all there is to it. And yes, he will be able to tell.

I think there there's a whole lot of interlinked stuff here.
To truely "solve" that issue where your husband wanted way more sexual frequency than you do... i think if you ever got to the point where you could use your body to "make your husband happy",and that in itself, made you happy, even if you werent sexually turned on... that would make him happy. To see, and thus know, that you enjoyed physically being with him, would help a lot.
(doesnt mean you should stop looking for your own "happy hour" though $;\)$ )

Trouble is, o course.. you're a loong way from that right now, and you probably cant just jump in.

Thats why I asked you how you felt about touching him, even though you said you felt creepy when he touched you.
If you're ok with touching HIM... maybe you could rub his shoulders or something sometime, and just see how you are with that.

Sandi:

Sweety. No offense. This board is the ultimate in venting and clearing thoughts. And I think DomR is trying to help you with that.

But what I see Cemar trying to do for you is to OWN your part of it... the only way change will come about is for you to OWN... and then DO something about what you own. THAT takes courage.

Cemar is really good for that. He can't figure out his own sh!t, but... the man... CAN help you.

Corri

Quote:

But back to the original question I had for you, How are YOU going to emtionally connect with him using HIS LL. All this TALKING stuff is for YOU, not for him. HE needs to focus on the talking stuff, what am I trying to get is for you to understand what YOUR focus needs to be, and it won't involve talking. And he really does not need to TELL you, cause I think that you already know what he needs.

I am still thinking about what you and Corri said.

OK...I have to jump in concerning two points...AD's and ED

I think AD's can be very helpful...even in the restoration of a M/R....case in point my H...he was depressed....felt sick, physically....and has/had ED!...the Dr. put him on AD's...the first two didn't work for him...actually seemed to make things mildly worse...finally they found one that began to work...he felt better emotionally and physically...he also began to function better sexually!...while it isn't where he used to be it is functional...

Also, I for one have never made my H feel like less of man when things didn't work...I have always held fast that he is a great lover and I mean that in whole sense...the penis is NOT his whole self...while we both would like for things to be great we don't stress over it...we discuss it in ways that are constructive and I work with his abilities and don't complain about it...He is harder on himself and I often have to correct his point of view...

So anyway...Sandi...my point in this is that you very well should talk with your DR and see if there isn't something to help you...it might not be the first thing you try...but it is rare that nothing is found that works...I think in your sitauation...with the physical pain and the emotional pain you might actually have more positives then negatives...

Yes, sexual functions can be affected...but that can also be in an improvement if the emotions are better...not everything revolves around the genitals!...intimacy is more then sex...wayyyy more

I do agree that trying to talk with your H isn't the approach to take right now...when his needs start being met (it sounds like this really hasn't happened before in your marriage) then it will be time for him to see that he needs to start meeting your needs...the healing starts with one person...I know...I worked a long time alone in this...but it has been worth it to have my H join me again in our M!

Take care....Lin

Sandi:

You really need to read "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura. It is specifically for LD women that wish to save their marriages by becoming more HD. I am not sure how that will work with you because of all your other conditions, but it is definitely a place to start.

You also have to realize that when it comes to sexual desire, women are teh OPPOSITE of men. What this mean is that you sexual drive is CAUSED by sex. In effect, to desire sex, you will have to have LOTS of sex. Not having sex will CAUSE you to NOT WANT SEX! Read her book, it will tell you all this. It will also tell you how to solve this problem, and it will NOT be easy.

As for not FAKING desire for your husband, I have no clue as to how to solve this one. Maybe one of the LD women on here has some useful experience. I would like to know the answer to that one as well. How does the LD women change the situation in a believeable way, when the HD man has gone for years KNOWING that he is not desired? I think that this is actually the hardest part of fixing a SSM. I have the same problem in my own marriage, How does the LD women make it BELIEVEABLE?

Cemar, I was just thinking about your question today. Now that things have normalized in my marriage, I find I have a hard time showing desire to my H. The reason is that I don't feel it. I'd rather have him engage me in some fantasy talk ( which really isn't his way). So, he's waiting to see some physical desire from me, and I am waiting to see some mental engagement from him. We have been through too much to play the waiting game, and somehow things get started, usually by him initiating in a physical way.

So how do I appraoch him, knowing this is what he wants, when I am not feeling it?

( Sorry, Sandi, for the hijack)

Good morning everyone,

First thanks to imLin and Cemar for your last input. Thanks to all of you for what you have said. Some of you are so compassionate to me and I need that a lot. Some of you, DomR, are like my doctor or counselor (lol).....and I sure need that! Then, some of you kind of slap me in the face as if to say..."listen to me!" (lol) At first, well, to be honest it makes me a tiny bit angry b/c that slap does have a sting. But it does gets my attention. The thing is that I don't discredit it and it makes me think! There is one thing about all of you that I think have in common.....I think of all of you as a friend. I am serious. I think if you didn't care, you would not even bother to post anything. I know that it takes time reading these posts and time to send a message back. So, again, my thnnks to each of you.

The thing about my physical problem with Fibro is not just the pain in itself but how it affects or effects (I never know which spelling to use) the nervous system. Therefore, I tend to cry, etc. when I am in a "flare" which makes it worse all the way around. I have been doing a lot of thinking about that the past three days and I have decided that I am my own worst enemy. I expect too much of myself and beat myself up when I feel that I have let people down that "I think" depend on me....such as work, church, family, etc. I have stayed home from work when I may "could" have forced myself to go in spite of the pain level....but my nerves were so fragile that I was afraid I would break down and cry at the drop of a hat...and where I work, that would not do at all. So, I have missed a lot of work and that makes people there resent me even more. So, it seems like a "no win" situation. However, I am going to try something that may or may not work...that being...I am going to try my best to stop beating myself half to death when I am not able to function properly.

This leads me back to the subject of the AD meds. Would I be as emotional when I have a "flare" (which means when the fibro is intense) as I am now? I was before when I was taking them, but like I said, I couldn't tell they were doing much of anything positive for me b/c apparently I was not taking the right kind.

As I've stated in previous threads, I have always had a certain amount of depression, but I think that was due to the living circumstances and our MR. I was very unhappy. There were times that was better, of course, but over-all I was not a "happy camper" in our R. I tried to use positive thinking and spiritual techniques (if I should even use such a phrase) b/c I was taught that if we "believed" that anything could happen. Well, I tried but I failed....."I" failed...not God. It would be better for a short period of time....but then revert to the same old--same old.

I have been thinking a lot the past couple of days about my H's needs and how they were not met by me in our R. It breaks my heart, but I still need to do more thinking about the time slots in our 41+ years .....you know, you can't think about everything in a few hours...those are a lot of years!

I have been doing a lot of soul searching....that is hard. I have also been trying to think about what my H truly meant when he said that "I had not been there for him", then said that wasn't really how to state it, but that he didn't know how. So, I am thinking in my heart that what he really meant was that he had not felt "respect" from me. That is true. I must confess that....and I did tell him that I had not shown him respect the way I should have. I think that helped his feelings some....I hope it did. But, I plan, with God's help, when we talk again (when the timing is right) to tell him that I can see where I always compared him to others. In everything.....I can see where I compared him to other men. Now, I did not express that to him through "verbal" ways, but it must have come out in other ways that caused him to feel it and "know" in his heart that he did not measure up to my expectations. On the "outside" I thought I was "supporting" him, but in my "heart".....I wasn't. I realize that now. I can tell you.....it is humbling!

I think I told you all the worst thing I ever said to him.....about why I didn't know why he was complaining about our sex life b/c at least he always had a climax and that was more than I could say that I had ever had during sex. I didn't leave much to his manhood. Of course, that was after about 10 years of no sex at that point when I told him that. I was so fed up with him blaming me for lack of sex.....for rejecting him, etc. until I just spewed it out. He looked so hurt. He knew I had never climaxed......and as DomR pointed out to me....it made him feel like he had failed as a man by knowing that I had not enjoyed the experiece. I was so frustrated by him not explaining to me why he reacted that way the time--when I told him that I would be available to him for sex whenever he wanted it, and I did not want him to think he would be rejected......and then he just went cold on me. I could never understand that and it put up that "wall" even higher. It made me mad b/c he wouldn't explain to me and, as usual, I tried to guess at "why" he reacted the way he did. Well, I suppose my "guess" was way off base to the real reason. It probably sounded like I was doing him some big favor by making a "sacrifice" to him. Of course, I did not mean for it to sound that way.....I truly was trying to make our R work! I thought that was what he wanted! But, in my ignorance, I made things worse. We both need communication skills. He was always so introverted and it drove me crazy! In the early years, I was always trying to prode him and make him talk. Well, it just didn't happen, so I tried to "guess" at everything and it just went from bad to terrible!

Gee, I hope some younger people can learn from my bad mistakes. If anyone is reading this that has been doing the same thing with your S.....please stop before you distory everything. He told me one time that it hurt him to try to express into words about his feelings as bad as it would hurt me to keep everything bottled up inside. You see, I thought he would feel better if he would just talk about it. Well, just b/c that worked for me didn't mean it worked for everybody in the world.

You are right Cemar....I have been focusing on what I need and not on what he needs. In fact, when you first brought that up, I thought to myself, "I wouldn't have a clue as to what he needs b/c he won't talk". But, you hit me by saying that I really already knew. In my heart.....that is where I have to go to dig it out. And...it hurts bad. I have such a high wall built around me that it is going to be hard breaking it down...but I've got to do it. I just thought I had forgiven him, but I hadn't. The hardest part is to forgive myself for the pain I have caused him all these years.

It is no wonder he crawled into his cave and hasn't come out in so many years to pay any attention to me. Yes, it left me emotionally empty and craving for male attention and yes, I turned to another man, which was very wrong. I can try to justify myself for what I did, but it is still wrong. Yes, he hurt me.....a lot, and there were times that I thought I was trying so hard to improve our MR.....and he certainly did not respond the way I thought he would have. I still don't understand a lot of times in the past, but it must have had something to do with his own personal pain at the time. I may never know for sure just what was going on at that particular time. Maybe he saw me as trying to manipulate him. God! I never in my wildest dreams thought of that! I don't think I ever....ever meant to be doing that! I truly was just trying to make things exciting for him. Like the time I wore the sexy garments and he did not respond.....perhaps that was what he thought at the time. I couldn't think b/c I was too hurt and felt too rejected myself. It is all so sad. So sad! Why couldn't he just tell me.....if that "is" what he thought? I don't "know" that it is.......I'm "guessing" again! But it never entered into my mind until this very minute. It is mind blowing! At the time this happened, I don't recall having too much sexual problems. In fact, that was the times that seem to be better between us.......so, I don't know, it just doesn't make any sense to me. I brought it up to him once and he acted like he couldn't even remember it. Like I said.....it just blows me away. Please bear with me while I have a break-down here.

We both have been hurt a lot. It has certainly been a two-way street. I doubt that my pain has equaled to his. It amazes me to think how we have endured each other this long. We both have high walls built around ourselves for our own protection from each other. Oh dear God, how terrible sad.....what people do to each other that are suppose to be in love! I do love him....but I sure haven't shown it. My body rejected him.....my heart.....my attitude....actions.....speech....everything showed him that I did not accept him for who he was then and who is tody.

RJ:

Quote:

So how do I appraoch him, knowing this is what he wants, when I am not feeling it?

You approach him and use him to kick start your desire. Meaning... you don't wait for him to make the first move... and I'm sure he would be willing to let you use him a bit

while you get yourself going... because THAT is the goal.. kicking in your desire... not faking it.

Corri

Hey Sandi, Don't bother playing the " who hurt each other more" game. If you're the winner, and have hurt your H more, then you feel guilty. If he's the winner, and hurt you more, then you're the martyr. It's all subjective anyway, and it really makes no difference.

Okay, so we know both you and H have repeatedly hurt each other. Welcome to marriage...it's all par for the course. In a previous post I suggested to you the book Passionate Marriage. Now I suggest you run and get it ( I guess I fall into the " listen to me" category). The book is such a refreshing take on what really goes on, psychologically, in marriage. It gives hope for long standing marriages, as the author feels the capacity for intimacy increases with age if you can untangle the mess.

My other "listen to me" thing is to encourage you, once more, to consider the AD. As I have mentioned, I am someone who suffers from depression. For the most part, I am quite functional, but I have my moments. One of the things I do is that I save my despondency for when I am in the car. Then the tears come. I guess I feel safe there to let it out. I know to keep a box of tissues in the car, and this is my norm.

Recently it occurred to me that " normal" people don't do this. I had so used to my pathology, my norm, that I just accepted the car episodes as typical life for Journey. It was a real eye opener to discover that my car crying jags stopped after being on the AD.

I just think you are selling yourself short, so to speak, by not considering the AD option. It may not be right for you, but I say it's worth giving it a whirl.

Corri, thanks for the response. Time to start a thread.

Dear RealJourney, thank you sweetie, and actually, I considered you under the compassionate group....lol. Seriously, everyone has been in that group, it's just that I found some that talk more like I do at times...hahahaha.

I sure will consider the AD. In fact, I made an appointment with my doctor for that reason. It will be about three more weeks before I can get in to see him. I will also order that book...and the one Cemar suggested. Gosh, I have so many books mounting up. But, I am reading them.

What you said about the "blame" game certainly has a lot of truth to it. Very wise words indeed. So, I think I would be wasting my time in trying to go there, don't you? So, should I continue my "soul searching" to see what all I've done to hurt my H? Or, should I just try to start from this point in a healing process? See, I really don't know. Some say to search it all out in your heart to face the truth and then the healing can start.

This is why this message board has been like gold to me. People can see objectivly into my problems. They can say things to me where perhaps my own family wouldn't or couldn't...whichever the case. My family is too close to the problem and probably don't know what to say!

Sandi, there's one thing I want you to consider. I may be totally off base, but I'm going to type it out just for the heck of it.

What struck me about your account is the fact that your h backed off and developed ED just around the time you were starting to enjoy sex. That, to me, can mean any one of three things.

1) that it was just a coincidence. Possible, but not that likely.

2) that there was a "miscommunication" just around that time that so pierced his manhood and his pride that he couldn't deal

or

3) that this is a classic case of a Schnarchian "switch". Now you haven't read Passionate Marriage, have you? Schnarch tells of a couple where the man is HD and the woman LD. Through therapy, she starts to become much more sexual ... and he loses interest.

Schnarch says this is a common phenomenon. The man isn't "happy" with his sitch, but it's the devil he knows. It also soothes his own insecurities. The wife is the one with "the problem". When she suddenly changes and becomes sexual, he has to confront his own fears, and withdraws.

In a situation like yours where both of you were so very young and so very inexperienced I frankly don't know where your husband would have developed a secure sense of his sexual self. Just something to think about.

If you want to know what I think I believe it may be a combination of 2) and 3).

I think you need a list with goals ... maybe things like,

"I will call my doctor to talk about ADs withing the next week", or "I will approach my husband and give him a hug, everyday". Just make a list of things that you want to accomplish. And be specific. Don't just say "I want a better R" or "I want to be in less pain", which is great, but also say what you want to DO about it. Let's get started. :-)

I just noticed that my thread has about 14 pages and it usually locks up about that time, so I may have to start another any minute....just look for me under that same title for the time being.

Southern Girl.....hummmm, that makes two of you that has mentioned that book...so I'll order it. Hope I don't max out my credit card (lol). As I've said, I thought the "irony" of the timing in our sex "turn-around" was just too much. I may never know the reason behind it, but I just want to make things good again. If my thread locks up here any minute....please look for me still under SSM under the same title.

Corri, thanks for your help. I'm kind of embarrased to admit this, but I'm not real sure what "owning" means here. If it is to admit or face my faults in the M...then I understand that part. I understand taking responsibility. If I am off base, please just talk plain to me (lol) and break it down so I can understand. That is why I told you and Cemar that I was still thinking about what you both had said.

Quote:

What this mean is that you sexual drive is CAUSED by sex. In effect, to desire sex, you will have to have LOTS of sex. Not having sex will CAUSE you to NOT WANT SEX! Read her book, it will tell you all this. It will also tell you how to solve this problem, and it will NOT be easy.

I tried to tell my H for years (after he stopped having sex on a regular basis) that the longer we went without sex the less I wanted it. It was kind of like started all over again. The more often we had it, then the "easier" it was for me. Not a good way to express it, but in other words...it goes back to what you are saying here.

I am going to order the Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. After all the books I am reading, I should be one smart cookie! Let's just hope I can put it into practice.....as Corri told me. You and Corri (lol)are quite a pair! But I like both of you.

I even like CAC.....BYW what happen to you...haven't heard from you any more.

imLIN ...the healing starts with one person...I know...I worked a long time alone in this...but it has been worth it to have my H join me again in our M!
May I Congratulate? The world needs more people like you.

Two people like that in a M, wow, wouldn�t that be wonderful?

Lou

Corri:

There is such an awkwardness when people have been unaffectionate for so long, in Sandi's case, many years. So how does the LD spouse approach the HD spouse affectionately without it feeling so fake or setup? I know that if my wife actually touched me first, I would not believe she was acting genuinly. It's like the LD spouse has painted themselves into a corner and their really is no way out.

Originally Posted By: cemar2

There is such an awkwardness when people have been unaffectionate for so long, in Sandi's case, many years. So how does the LD spouse approach the HD spouse affectionately without it feeling so fake or setup? I know that if my wife actually touched me first, I would not believe she was acting genuinly. It's like the LD spouse has painted themselves into a corner and their really is no way out.

Good point. My wife has said this same thing to me, that given what all we have been going through, that this is how I would feel and I would pretty much have to agree.

So how does the LD spouse approach the HD spouse affectionately without it feeling so fake or setup?

I would start by talking to my spouse about my feelings, and my new understanging of the importance of a good sex life, and how I would like to improve things. I wouldn't just try to initiate sex. That *would* seem fake because it would come out of nowhere, especially in a relationship where there hasn't been affection in many years.

I know that if my wife actually touched me first, I would not believe she was acting genuinly.

I'm sure she knows that.

It's like the LD spouse has painted themselves into a corner and their really is no way out.

Ah, but Cemar, you're forgetting that many times the HD spouse is painted into that other corner across the room.

Sandi:

"The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" is such a great book. I read that and thought, she has me pegged perfectly. Something that I notice about women is that life is so complex for them, satisfieing their needs is incredibly complex because women are so freaking hard to understand. But men, we are "Simple" creatures according to her book, and I completely agree with it. Take your case for example, sex is scary stuff for you, but talking about stuff, opening up, thats right up your alley. Then you think, HE really needs to open up and that will make things great, but opening up and communicating is what MEN find scary, while SEX is right up their alley. Remember when you talked about him going into his cave. This is normal (but needs to be changed).

So think "SIMPLE". You're complex, he is SIMPLE. It's all explained in her book.

In her book, she compares a couple to a farmer and his draft horse, the husband being the horse. As she says "Feed Him, Sex Him, Admire Him, and he will work for you until his heart explodes." That sentence says it all.

Sandi2
So, I am thinking in my heart that what he really meant was that he had not felt "respect" from me.[b]
Also try the word appreciation. I pick up on BB signaling, what I do for her and us as �not good enough� or the �timing is wrong� many times.

[b] when we talk again (when the timing is right) to tell him that I can see where I always compared him to others
BB did the comparing. I saw the differences but realized the other couples had or did things. I also saw we didn�t have as much debt.

Some thoughts about when the �time is right?� Now is a good time to start. I think most people wait too long for the �right time.� What has worked for me, is to bring up a topic in it�s simplest terms, why it is a problem or a goal you want to achieve and list 2 or 3 short supporting facts or goals.

Just because you bring up a topic, doesn�t mean you have to have the problem or goal completely defined and you don�t have to have all of the answers right now.

--when I told him that I would be available to him for sex whenever he wanted it, and I did not want him to think he would be rejected......and then he just went cold on me. I could never understand that and it put up that "wall" even higher. It made me mad b/c he wouldn't explain to me and, as usual, I tried to guess at "why" he reacted the way he did. Well, I suppose my "guess" was way off base to the real reason. It probably sounded like I was doing him some big favor by making a "sacrifice" to him. Of course, I did not mean for it to sound that way.....I truly was trying to make our R work! I thought that was what he wanted!
Did he say why his part of the wall went up? His reason might be a bit different than what you had in mind.

In the early years, I was always trying to prode him and make him talk. Well, it just didn't happen, so I tried to "guess" at everything and it just went from bad to terrible!
If he won�t talk, you can give the 2 or 3 most likely answers you associate with an event and ask him which is the closest to being right. It is sort of like playing the game �Warmer-closer or Colder-going the wrong direction.

Still he does have a civil responsibility to explain most of his feelings so you don�t have to guess most of the time.

I still don't understand a lot of times in the past, but it must have had something to do with his own personal pain at the time. I may never know for sure just what was going on at that particular time.
We all have our own inner world, some with painful memories and happy memories. It is difficult for me to know where BB is at a particular moment. The same things applies to your H, you can�t always know what he is thinking or feeling. Tell him that and ask for his co-operation so you two can have a brighter future.

So sad! Why couldn't he just tell me.....if that "is" what he thought? I don't "know" that it is.......I'm "guessing" again! But it never entered into my mind until this very minute. It is mind blowing! At the time this happened, I don't recall having too much sexual problems. In fact, that was the times that seem to be better between us.......so, I don't know, it just doesn't make any sense to me. I brought it up to him once and he acted like he couldn't even remember it.
Maybe he doesn�t remember it. In that case, ask a hypothetical question and ask him if �A� or �B� sounds better. Or you could ask him if �A� or �B� is going toward a direction that makes for a better life or is going in the wrong direction and messing up the marital happiness.

We both have been hurt a lot. It has certainly been a two-way street. I doubt that my pain has equaled to his.
Try to think different pains and get away from the thought of something being equal. If things are supposed to be fair or equality is something to be desired, if it isn�t equal, then someone is ahead of the game and someone is experiencing a loss. From what I read, you both suffered losses and life isn�t fair or equal. M/R�s are not perfect so don�t wait till the perfect/right time to make a move in the warmer direction.

Doing nothing (and I am not saying you are doing nothing. I see you doing several things) is allowing the colder direction to take over by default.

Warmer/colder is a little kid�s game. The blindfolded person tries to find something. Everyone around the blindfolded person tells him/her if they are getting closer (warmer) to an object they are instructed to find. There are other versions of the game that don�t include a blindfold.

Using a more sophicated term instead of warmer/colder, successive approximations comes to mind. Maybe it isn�t the best term, but it is the process I have in mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaping_(psychology)

Lou

Oh Cemar.....you really got me tickled! Talking about men being simple is funny when it comes from another man. I'm afraid you are correct about me (especially) being a complex person. I recognize that more and more. In fact, today has been a day of really rocognizing a lot of things in my life. I think perhaps there was a reason (from a higher power)for me staying home these past two days....a lot of soul searching, praying, and just getting some powerful insight from all of you friends here on this board. I take everything into consideration that is said to me.

I find myself repeating a lot of the same information and I will try to break myself from that habit. Forget what I tell people and forget everyone reads what I've told the other....lol.

"The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura

Sandi2, if you read this book good, but it is my opinion this book could also cause you quite a bit of frustrations.

My opinion is read the book but don't take everything as a must do. Some women hated the book's advice.

Some of the things would work in a perfect M with the perfect book type of people.

Passionate Mariage book is good. Here is a link to some of Schnarch's work
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13836191/
Schnarch video online, 6 parts

� An unconventional approach
July 14: You're about to meet two couples brave enough to tell all about what goes on behind the bedroom in hopes that what they're about to endure may save their marriages.

Mrs. CAC4.....Hi, I didn't know you were on board too. I feel very honored that you dropped in. What you had to say sounds like words from a wise woman. I appreciate it greatly.

I take it that you and your H have been reading my thread together. He sure got me "fired" up over the "frigid" thing...lol. However, it also got me to doing a lot of soul searching and thinking back to things that were said in my past to make me react the way I do to that particular word.

Please come back anytime to join in with your insight. Right now, I am really trying to find answers and a pathway on how to make things right and how to "start". Our timing has been so "off" in the past and he knows that I'm reading a lot of books and I'm on here everytime he comes in the room...so, I don't want him to take any "moves" from me as .......well, you know....."instructions" from any books I've read. I want him to know it is from my heart. I have wondered if that is why he reacted to my dressing up sexy those times.....b/c he knew I had been reading "Total Woman". I even ordered the tape and he insisted on listening to it....all the time I just cringed b/c I didn't want him hearing the "secrets" that were told to women on how to keep their husbands excited in the M. I was afraid he would react in much of the same way he did. As if to say, "Is this some of that stuff you read about doing?" Not that he did say that, but I felt like he might as well had.

Again, thanks for your advice anytime.

Quote:

Oh... honey, you are so singing to the choir. I guess you take MWD's advice here, and you Just DO IT. And then you do it again, and again, and again.

As the HD H, no, it isn't going to feel authentic yet. Why would it? But it can again... if you keep at it.

Corri

Quote:

I didn't want him hearing the "secrets" that were told to women on how to keep their husbands excited in the M.

I personally think that the best marital techniques, are ones that dont have to be kept "secret".
When you find something that finds interesting/potentially good, and you can share it with your husband, and he can say, "hey, that sounds good to me!"... then you know you're _really_ onto something $;\)$

Quote:

As the HD H, no, it isn't going to feel authentic yet. Why would it? But it can again... if you keep at it.

ooo.. you gotta be careful applying something like that.

If you do something that you HATE... doing it again and again.. is probably going to make you hate it MORE.
If on the other hand, you do something that is "neutral" to you.. and then you do it again and again... you'll probably find that you get comfortable with it, and "might" end up enjoying it after a while $;\)$

First, you have to be at least "comfortable" with it, or you'll make things worse.

DomR.....regarding the "Total Woman" stuff....lol...guess that just shows my old fashion nature. I must have wanted him to think it was all my idea!

I did hear a woman say once that she and her H were attending together in a class that was for Marriage Enrichment and when she tried to apply some principles that were taught in the class, he threw it up in her face about it. Just showed his immaturity to me. He should have been happy (knowing the woman as I did) that she was finally trying to apply "something"....lol.

Ok guys & gals, I got the books order....I cheated and got one on CD so I can listen after I go to bed....since I'm alone anyway. Might as well make good use of the time...right?

I have the "Keep Love Alive" CD's
They are Good motivators

Quote:

ooo.. you gotta be careful applying something like that.

If you do something that you HATE... doing it again and again.. is probably going to make you hate it MORE.
If on the other hand, you do something that is "neutral" to you.. and then you do it again and again... you'll probably find that you get comfortable with it, and "might" end up enjoying it after a while ;\)

First, you have to be at least "comfortable" with it, or you'll make things worse.

That's why I don't do things I hate doing. I hate having sex with emotionally cold men. I won't do it. It doesn't mean I hate the man. It means the experience royally sucks for me.

I used to think I hated sex. "I'm just not a sexual being, I guess," I used to say. That's a cop out. I didn't like feeling exposed, and raw and vulnerable. Those are very intense feelings, and I just couldn't handle them. And I have things that happened to me in my past (FOO stuff), that fostered that in me. It was far easier for me to say "I'm not a sexual being," than it EVER was or will be... facing myself.

But. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with my sex drive. Nothing. It's a highly functioning part of me, as a matter of fact.

Sandi is a highly sexual being. She feels it and she likes the feeling (at least that's what she said on another thread).

She doesn't have a sex drive problem. AT ALL.

But it's going to FEEL that way to her, until she can get clear on what the issues actually ARE, and develop a plan, with her H... to address them.

So... when I started out of my LDness... I had feelings of anger and rage and hurt... but it wasn't from sex. Sex just set it off.

Sooo.... yes, doing it again, and again, and again, even though I THOUGHT I hated it... even though it felt like I hated it... was the only to rewire my defense mechanisms/habitual responses and impulses. <-- Doing that is what helped me to start uncovering the REAL issues. Which had nothing to do with sex, really.

That may not be the way of it for everyone. I had a very, very, very smart shrink.

Corri

Quote:

Sandi is a highly sexual being. She feels it and she likes the feeling (at least that's what she said on another thread).

She doesn't have a sex drive problem. AT ALL.

LOL....now you've blown my cover. (so to speak)

Seriously.....I feel very .....ah.....motivated by what you just said.

DIY,

Yes, I have it on my computer where I ordered them straight from the website. I have to figure out how to get it on to the CD. I thought maybe my grandson could do it for me. Anyway, I do have those.

Good Morning Everyone,

Well, it looks at though I am going to be able to make it to work today! I feel that the past few days have been anything but uneventful for me. I was physically down, but I certain was being emotionally fed some potient meds.

I got to feeling better enough to cook a simple little supper last night which surprised my H. My attitude was a lot more upbeat. Even though he did not say anything about it, he could not have helped but notice. He probably thought it was b/c I was feeling better physically. I offered to rub his back again with some medication (remember he has strained or pulled a musckle)but he said it was not necessary. I had done that the night before (don't know if I ever mentioned it or not, but it did not turn me off to touch him like that). That is not a big thing, but for me....well, sadly, I had gotten to the place I would not have even done that much for him. I hardly cared if he had any supper or if his back hurt. Mine hurt all the time, so I would have just thought, "Now you know how I feel".

Anyway, those were "baby" gestures but that is what my goal will be for a while is to make those PT.....even if it is just a hug or to rub his back. When I started to bed, I jokingly asked him if he wanted to "lay hands on my legs and pray over them" so I would be able to go back to work. Now this is the part I don't like.....just by the way he looked at me and quickly responded..."yeah"...(I should have been happy to know he still had some feelings for me, but instead.....that old yucky feeling of rejecting him came up from inside of me)however, I quenched it and leaned forward (he was sitting on the couch) and gave him a quick good-night kiss. That old "feeling" (whatever label would be properly applied) is the worst feeling in the world for a wife. But, I tried to apply the "do it anyway" principle. It was small....but at least I could do it instead of turn around in disgust and go to bed.

I was reading some post from Chrome, (the first of this last thread of his), where he told about how he tried to get his wife to sit by him and cuddle and she was on the computer and gave some flimsy excuse. Then he tried to say something else and that didn't work either. You see, I recognized his W immediately. He could not have said anything at that moment to have changed her mind! B/c of her attitude.....her mind set.....gosh, I don't know what to call it. It is almost like something comes up from the gut and you feel repelled (hope I'm using the right word). I know that hurts so badly for the LBS or the HD S. It hurts the other one too and that is what I hope can be accomplished here for some of us is to figure out how to overcome that. I have decided that I am not giving up. Just a couple of days ago, I was about ready to do that....but I know a lot of that was my physical discouragement.

The amazing thing about last night was that only hours before, I had been praying that I had not waited too long and done so much damage to my H that he would never have any feeling for me again. Therefore, I should have been happy to see that grin on his face as he looked up at me. Why or why did that old disgusted emotion have to rise up from somewhere deep within my soul and say, "HA! I'm still here, girl, you won't get rid of me that easily!"

My other small goal for the next few days is to read at least one chapter at day...at least one....out of all these books I have now. I need to read much more, but I am trying to do as Michelle says and just very small goals. It is my nature to make a mile long list of goals whereby I would be near perfect if I could accomplish any of them. So, I'm trying to resist doing that.

I did start the SSM book by Michelle last night and that is going to be the one I finish before going on to the others I have received. I have read two or three chapters from nearly all of them (anxious to see where it is headed)but haven't finished any.

If I get a minute or two throughout the day, I will check in to see if any of you have responded. Don't know if there is anything to say or not (lol), but you know I always appreciate your thoughts.

Have a good morning.

Hey Sandi, That is great that you are feeling better! I like your plan of making small goals for yourself...that is very much what MWD advises to do. It's solid, practical adice for getting things moving in the right direction, and I know it's worked for me. Your new journey with your H reminds me of where I was when I first came to this board, and how lazy I have gotten. It's time for me to get re-started again...thanks for the motivation...have a nice day!

"Keep Love Alive" CD's

There are several music/video playing/ripping programs to convert music CD's to MP3 files that can be stored on a computer hard drive.
Windows Media Player, already in windows software or here for the newest version
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/download/AllDownloads.aspx?displang=en&qstechnology=
iTunes-7 http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/
winamp http://www.winamp.com/
Music Match http://www.musicmatch.com/
are some of the software programs.

I have converted all of my music and talk CD's to MP3 files and have 4,000 music or talk files in folders on my hard drive.

There are several web sites with free MP3 files that I have saved to my hard drive.

Samdi, if you have an iPod, Zune, or similar device, the KLA CD converted to MP3 format, loaded onto tour hard drive then copied to your MP3 player. You can listen to the KLA CD files any time you want.

If BB is watching one of her TV programs or I go to bed and can't sleep, I listen to various motivational talks my MP3 player.

MP3 players
http://www.sandisk.com/Products/Catalog(1166)-SanDisk_Sansa_e200_Series_MP3_Players.aspx

http://www.apple.com/itunes/

ebay http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll...ntrypage=search

And there are several web sites that have MP3 files you can down load to your computer, then to your MP3 player.

Just Google the word "PODCAST" to find a list of many pod cast sites. http://podcast.com/

I have some very good relationship type pod casts on my computer.

About WMD's books. One thing I tell people is, when first reading the book; look for things that you are doing that might put distance between you and your H. The book is good at suggesting what "NOT TO DO."

People look for ways to change the spouse, which isn't practical at first. "What not to do" well you have much more control over that area, so start there. It is similar to Marriage Builder's concept of "Love Busters," eliminate as many of those as you can.

Lou

http://www.podcast.net/

type the word "relationships" in the search box.

Good morning!

Quote:

I got to feeling better enough to cook a simple little supper last night which surprised my H.
...
I offered to rub his back again with some medication
...
I had done that the night before (don't know if I ever mentioned it or not, but it did not turn me off to touch him like that).

Wow.. Wow.. WOW!
You are DOING GREAT! And I think it is wonderful that you can find it in yourself to do things like that, while you are in pain and feeling needs for yourself. way to go!

You keep doing what you're doing, Sandi.. you are on the right path. Just keep doing the little steps.. and when you feel ready.. add just a little more. I dont know if you've ever done weight training, or watched someone do it over time... but that's how you do it. When you're completely out of shape.. you start with a silly little 5 pound weight. It almost looks riddiculous, compared to what other people are using... but you do it.. and your muscles get used to it.. and then you move to 10 lbs.
and then after a while 15. bit, by bit.
(i was so pathetically out of shape, after the "bomb effect".. losing 15 pounds.. I actually had to start with a 3lbs weight for a week. sheesh...)

As far as books go... I think you should focus on one at a time, and let each one sink in for a while, rather than just zip through all of them. Otherwise, you will probably lack full appreciation for any of them.

Quote:

I had been praying that I had not waited too long and done so much damage to my H that he would never have any feeling for me again. Therefore, I should have been happy to see that grin on his face as he looked up at me. Why or why did that old disgusted emotion have to rise up from somewhere deep within my soul and say, "HA! I'm still here, girl, you won't get rid of me that easily!"

You are a blessed woman, Sandi. God is listening closely to your prayers. Perhaps the best thing you can do right now in that department.. is pray for YOURSELF.
Pray that God will banish that other voice from inside you.

i was originally going to suggest that you pray for a "renewed heart". but after reflecting.. you already DO love your husband. trouble is, you also hate him. Maybe ask God to help you let go of the hate, and anger, and resentment.

Wow Lou, Thanks for all the infro!

Hi Sandi, I'm over in the "newcomers' forum these days. Stop by and say hello.
GoodGuy

Hi DomR,

Well, as a matter of fact, I did pray a lot yesterday and one of those prayers was like King David when he asked God to cleanse his heart and to restore the joy of his salvation. I know I have such a long way to go...but I think the decision to make the journey is a battle within itself. Kind of like when I first had to make the decision to stay with my husband over leaving for the OM. I am trying to realistic by knowing that more times than none those "old" feelings of coldness gripping my heart will reach out and grab me when my H repsonds to me, but I think I will have to approach that the same way I have had to learn to deal with some other areas in my life. It is a doorway the devil will use to distroy me...if I allow him to do that...therefore, I must not allow it...by my own free will/choice. It is so hard b/c I am a "feelings" orientated person.....(did I say that right?) anyway, maybe you understand what I mean. Feelings motivate my actions and as DB's we can't allow it to work that way....it must be based on our determination in what we believe (just as with our faith in God, etc.) So, I must stay focused on what I have determined in my heart to do and believe.....not what my fickle heart tells me. Pretty good stuff...huh? (lol) I hope I'll remember my own advice to myself! I don't expect it to be easy b/c I know myself too well. Plus, those old feelings have hung on tight for so many years.....ugh! But what a success story I will be able to tell in the end. To be able to tell others that it is possible b/c I was where they are and I made it through and they can too. This could turn out to be quite a ministry! I think that is what "imLin" has done for others and it truely is a ministry.

Just have a moment, but I think you are getting the hang of it. If you feel one way and act another, it doesn't necessarily mean you are being inauthentic or "not true to yourself" ... as long as your actions agree with what you, as a rational being, truly believe and want for yourself and your marriage. Regardless of what your emotions may be telling you in any particular moment.

Let me be another voice in favor of "Passionate Marriage". One of the things the author advocates is "Have your feelings. Don't let them have you." Along with strategies to achieve same.

Hey Good Guy,

I was looking for you last night, but I wasn't going far enough I suppose. So, how are you doing? What all has happen since I last heard from you?

I guess you can read up here to see where I am in my R. It is going to take "grit and grace" and my grandmother use to say to do what I've got to do, but I know it is going to be up to me. I also know that it is not going to be an easy road....simply b/c I know myself....not b/c my H won't cooperate fully. I think I know him that well, anyway, to know he will cooperate if I just show that I am trying a little bit to improve on my part. He has his fault, but I have had to face an awful lot of my own the past few days. Lots of soul searching. I received the book SSM by Michelle and have started reading that. But, it has mainly been the advice I have received from the board. These past few days, it seems like the "right stuff" has rolled in and began to finally soak through my thick skull. I was home from work Monday & Tuesday, so I made good use of my time by reading and especially "thinking". Today, I was back at work and feeling weak .....but ok.

I know that sometimes we can get upset by things people say when we don't think they fully understand our stitch. At least I do. I had a hard time with three or four (or maybe more--lol) posts that were sent to me, and sometimes I have to just kind of place it on the back burner to sit for a while and then pick it up and think it over at a later time. I do believe that most of the people here have good intentions to help people. But you know I am here for you and I'm glad you told me where to find you so we can continue to chat.

Thanks Kettricken,

I have ordered it and hopefully it will arrive in the next few days. I am reading the SSM book by Michelle. I hope all of it helps me a lot. You all have been encouraging to me.....I need it. Whenever I have that "old cold feeling" to hit me...it sure makes the heart want to give up, but I know I can't do that if I want to have any capastiy for life in my MR.

Sandi:

THe book "Wild at Heart" talks about all the things that will arise trying to STOP couples fromo connecting. As the book says, the devil can cause all sorts of cr#p to rise to the surface, because his goal is to DESTROY marriage. The book even suggests that the WOMEN is the target of the devil not the man normally. Even in the bible, the devil tempted EVE, not Adam. He knows where he can get the most bang for his buck, and that is with the woman, as SHE is the caretaker of the relationship.

Hmm...
i've never read it, but

http://www.ccwonline.org/wild.html

has these negative things to say about it;

Simply stated, the problems are as follows: First, Eldredge mishandles Scripture badly. Second, the central theme of the book is not consistent with the teaching of the Bible. Third, Eldredge conveys a low, humanistic, and even heretical view of God.

Originally Posted By: cemar

The book even suggests that the WOMEN is the target of the devil not the man normally. Even in the bible, the devil tempted EVE, not Adam.

This is INSANE.

Cemar book even suggests that the WOMEN is the target of the devil not the man normally.

Cemar, do you ever think that you could have born female? If an XX sperm would have reached and imbedded into your mothers egg first, you would be a woman.

The older I become, the more I think people are similar. Some people have trim package "A" and others have trim package "B" and their respective functions, operating procedures, and care.

I think you will help yourself a great deal if you back off on the gender differences, and look at the differences more as individual differences.

I post some Christian thoughts on the forum, but I also think of the possibility that maybe when a person dies, there isn't an after life. You are just dead. No devil, no God, no angles, not much of what is spoken about, in the Bible.

I will say I am strong for ethics, the golden rule, and things that help people live a higher quality life, w/o dumping a problem on someone else or some other place.

See Kohlberg's stages of moral development for some information why I act/do things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development

There are people at church that say the only Bible is the King James version. The Living Bible is a false works, or something like that.

From the time I was 5, church people helped our family. I listented to some far out beliefs. The idea that book even suggests that the WOMEN is the target of the devil not the man normally. is one of those far out statements.
Lou

DIY, you may be right or wrong, but your logical basis is far from good.
Your post is 90% items that have nothing to do with the bible, 5%, "well, is your bible the 'right' bible", and 5% "church people are far out".

If you want to make a statement about "what the bible says", it is usual to actually quote From The Bible to do so.

I'm not weighing in on my opinion on who is more biblically correct or not. I'd just like to see biblical arguments to be based In The Bible, ya know?
There's far too much sloppy biblical "interpretation" in this day and age as it is. From what the review says, that "wild at heart" has plenty of it. But if you want to dispute that book as being "non-biblical", then you need to provided biblical basis FOR that.

I'd just like to see biblical arguments to be based In The Bible, ya know?
That is just it, for me based on the Bible to prove a point is like defining a word with a version of the word.

I really wasn't trying to prove a Biblical point based on the Bible. I was saying what I experienced.

From what the review says, that "wild at heart" has plenty of it.
Dom, from what I have heard others in church leadership positions say (some I agree with and some ideas I don't ) people take a sentence from here and there to build a picture of how God wants things to be.

I have heard people use lines from the Bible sort of like an "Erector Set" to build support for several ideas. I am not going to do that.

My personal, just a person POV is read the whole chapter, learn what the words meant when written and go from there.

I am not going to cut my hand off because I covet my neighbor�s car or house. I am not going to a lot of things "some people" build cases to support.

But if you want to dispute that book as being "non-biblical", then you need to provided biblical basis FOR that.
I am not that dedicated, educated or emotionally engaged to support or discredit "Wild at Heart."

Men saying Women are the devils target when it comes to sin? That sounds illogical.

Think back to basic biology. What determines gender? Anyone of us has about an equal chance of being a male or female at conception (general population situation).

To me the genders are different, operate a bit differently, but many of the basics are similar.

I don't buy into astrology, palm reading, phone psychics, and several other seeing/knowing belief systems. Intuition, yes.

Back when AIDS was new, I heard it was God's curse for men's depravity. Right, like only gay men are prone to the virus? Sorry, I didn't buy it then, but several ministers were proving it was Gods curse on man and they supported the idea by what I call "Erector Setting" using the Bible.

That is just my POV. I don't know much when compared to religious scholars.

I have heard so many things that are not true but were "Erector Setted" by linking Bible verses to support a POV, I hesitate to be that convinced what some people believe to be true.

Just my way I see and experience things Dom.

Lou

hahahahaha........I don't think you even want to go there with me cemar.

Quote:

But if you want to dispute that book as being "non-biblical", then you need to provided biblical basis FOR that.

I am not that dedicated, educated or emotionally engaged to support or discredit "Wild at Heart."

[...] saying Women are the devils target when it comes to sin? That sounds illogical.

DIY, you are being illogical. Or at least, extremely contextually disjoint $;\)$

Saying "that sounds illogical", doesnt make sense contextually.
Since the context is "who does the devil tempt?" Unless you want to say, "that sounds illogical because it contradicts what the bible says in ..."

Otherwise, what you said is kind of like saying,

"Women are the devil's target? That sounds mathematically improbable."

What does mathematics have to do with the devil?! $\:D$

Similarly, what do all those things you have to say about "biology" have to do with the devil either???
It doesnt make sense to attempt to link the two.

Quote:

I have heard so many things that are not true but were "Erector Setted" by linking Bible verses to support a POV, I hesitate to be that convinced what some people believe to be true.

It seems like you are blurring the lines between "what the bible teaches", "what is 'provably true'", and "what things DIY finds socially/morally acceptible".

This is probably because you seem to basically be agnostic? no offense meant... just trying to straighten things out clearly.

It seems like you are trying to mix and compare secular "truth", with faith based issues.
But in a subject like "Does the devil..."? there is no secular "truth" to compare it to.

That is why I used phrases like "unbiblical", rather than "not true". Using phrases like "true/not true" often provokes people to start bringing in modern psychology arguments against things that the bible says. Which is really a waste of time.
If you truely believe in God, and the Bible, then you should do what the bible teaches, reguardless of what "modern science" thinks this decade about how people should act. After all, modern science keeps changing its views about just about everything. But the bible does not change. Therefore, you should have an interest if something is "biblically correct" or not, since it should alter your behaviour, if it is.

If, on the other hand, someone puts their "faith" more in the teaches of PC-ness and latest psychological guidelines, rather than what the bible says... then I dont see why they would bother commenting on whether or not something is biblically correct or not. It's a waste of their time.

I still am up in the air about whether or not I think that thing about the devil tempting women more than men is biblically correct or not. It would be an interesting thought if it were... of the top of my head, I can think of a few biblical passages that would actually support the statement $\:D$ But given all the other mistreatment of biblical issues in that book, I'm guessing it is most likely not. That book seems to specialize in biblical half-truths.

DIY, you are being illogical. Or at least, extremely contextually disjoint
OK, fine with me.

If you truely believe in God, and the Bible, then you should do what the bible teaches, reguardless of what "modern science" thinks this decade about how people should act. After all, modern science keeps changing its views about just about everything.
Regardless? Sorry, but I don't. And yes science changes because the instruments and measuring devices improve, are more numerous, new clues are introduced. 100 years ago, who talked about plate tectonics?

Floods, volcanoes, meteor strikes, plant and animal changes, new species and extinctions in 6 days? Wow, what a week.

Oh, and there isn't a Santa Clause BTW. I never had the privelege of believing that story. Maybe my life consisted of what "is"....too much, to get into what might be.

Back to Sandi2�s situation. Real life pains, emotional distance between her and her H. I would rather stick to what is.

Lou

Dom R:

Man, people, lighten up. I don't mean to get into a huge discussion on relgion. I was only trying to make a point that the devil try to damage marriages, he looks for WEAKNESS and then attacks that. That can be either MEN or WOMEN. I just find that in marriage, the women is far more complex then the man, both physically and emotionally. So if the devil is working to screw up couples, would it not make sense to go after the more complex person, there are just more possibilities in there to screw things up.

Quote:

After all, modern science keeps changing its views about just about everything. But the bible does not change.

This statement is rife with misconceptions about science, science history, and biblical history. Would you like to debate this in a separate thread?

Chrome

Quote:

Back to Sandi2�s situation. Real life pains, emotional distance between her and her H. I would rather stick to what is.

Yeah guys.....let's do that. You know I love you both! But I feel that I need to separate the two of you here...lol.

I do believe in God and the Bible, and enjoy discussing it in most circumstances. I was "tempted" (no pun intened) to get into a discussion with Cemar....but I resisted....lol. After all, this is a board for marriage problems and helping each other find solutions and although I believe, for me at least, that involves my faith in God, we could be here forever and not change everyone's mind to agree. Since this is my thread and as a favor to me....please, let's change the subject.

[changes subject]
So..... have ya got to first base yet? $;\)$

Quote:

Even in the bible, the devil tempted EVE, not Adam. He knows where he can get the most bang for his buck, and that is with the woman, as SHE is the caretaker of the relationship.

But isn't it funny how so many men are tempted away from their wives BY other women. So who should be taking care of that relationship at that time? I suppose you are one that thinks men cheat because the wife is somehow lacking. Give me a break.

Sorry Sandi. I had to reply to that ignorant statement above...I won't disrupt your thread anymore, though!

Originally Posted By: amyc

I suppose you are one that thinks men cheat because the wife is somehow lacking. Give me a break.

erm... most marital books, etc. would suggest that is true, but is not gender specific.
Most of them would say that one spouse is tempted to cheat, because they are "lacking" in something from their spouse.

ie: "their spouse is somehow lacking".

That's not to say that the infidelity is somehow their spouses "fault", or that the cheating spouse was somehow "forced" into it, etc.
Yet, there does seem to usually be some kind of "lack" involved.
Whether that be attention, admiration, frequency of sex, or...

But I feel that I need to separate the two of you here...lol.
I walk away from most disagrements, let people live/think as they see fit.

hahahahaha

There ya go....."live and let live" a lesson I had to learn a long time ago....

No problem here AmyC.....

My "ha-ha's" don't seem to fall in the right places.

SOMEone's frisky tonight...

(or maybe that's just me $;\)$ )

blahhh.. colds are rotten.

Originally Posted By: AmyC

But isn't it funny how so many men are tempted away from their wives BY other women.

Well, most men aren't going to be tempted away from their wives by other men. Not that there's anything wrong with that $\:\)$