Straight Into the Storm - DivorceBusting.com

As my thread is probably about to lock up, I wanted to start up another one before I head for the airport.

Besides, I just like coming up with clever Subject lines.

There's a dark cloud rising from the desert floor
I packed my bags and I'm heading straight into the storm
Gonna be a twister to blow everything down
That ain't got the faith to stand its ground
Blow away the dreams that tear you apart
Blow away the dreams that break your heart
Blow away the lies that leave you nothing but lost and brokenhearted

The dogs on Main Street howl 'cause they understand
If I could take one moment into my hands
Mister I ain't a boy no I'm a man
And I believe in a promised land

TOUGHER THAN THE REST

Well It's Saturday night
you're all dressed up in blue
I been watching you awhile
maybe you been watching me too
So somebody ran out
left somebody's heart in a mess
Well if you're looking for love
honey I'm tougher than the rest

Some girls they want a handsome Dan
or some good-lookin' Joe on their arm
Some girls like a sweet-talkin' Romeo
Well 'round here baby
I learned you get what you can get
So if you're rough enough for love
honey I'm tougher than the rest

The road is dark
and it's a thin thin line
But I want you to know I'll walk it for you any time
Maybe your other boyfriends
couldn't pass the test
Well if you're rough and ready for love
honey I'm tougher than the rest

Well it ain't no secret
I've been around a time or two
Well I don't know baby maybe you've been around too
Well there's another dance
all you gotta do is say yes
And if you're rough and ready for love
honey I'm tougher than the rest
If you're rough enough for love
baby I'm tougher than the rest

Ugh Choco, sorry about all the stress. You are doing great though. Stay strong.
If nothing else, it seems like your W having this EA/PA with someone 17 years younger is bound to fizzle out sooner rather than later. It will then be up to you to decide if you can live with that history.
And let me tell you, that can often be the hardest part. My H and I are through the worst of our own storm but the after effects are always hovering under the surface. They never fully go away. I can see how people just throw in the towel after a while. It is so hard sometimes.
But you know it will be an uphill battle. Just be realistic and work on yourself. No matter what happens Choco you are going to be ok.
LFL

Thanks, "Mrs. Choc." $;\)$

Yeah, I know, lots of song lyrics, but hey -- if I can't send e-mails, I gotta get this stuff out SOMEHOW, right??

Anyway, I had to share these with all of you, as it's kind of surreal. The last two times I walked in the bathroom, and the fetching-but-sneaking Mrs. Choc. was also in there, these were the two songs playing on the radio, swear to gosh:

"What a Fool Believes"

He came from somewhere back in her long ago
The sentimental fool dont see
Tryin hard to recreate
What had yet to be created once in her life

She musters a smile
For his nostalgic tale
Never coming near what he wanted to say
Only to realize
It never really was

She had a place in his life
He never made her think twice
As he rises to her apology
Anybody else would surely know
Hes watching her go

But what a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away
What seems to be
Is always better than nothing
And nothing at all keeps sending him...

Somewhere back in her long ago
Where he can still believe theres a place in her life
Someday, somewhere, she will return

She had a place in his life
He never made her think twice
As he rises to her apology
Anybody else would surely know
Hes watching her go

But what a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away
What seems to be
Is always better than nothing
Theres nothing at all
But what a fool believes he sees...

---------------------------------------------------
"Take it On the Run"

Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from another you been messin around
They say you got a boy friend
Youre out late every weekend
Theyre talkin about you and its bringin me down

But I know the neighborhood
And talk is cheap when the story is good
And the tales grow taller on down the line
But Im telling you, babe
That I dont think its true, babe
And even if it is keep this in mind

{refrain}

You take it on the run baby
If thats the way you want it baby
Then I dont want you around
I dont believe it
Not for a minute
Youre under the gun so you take it on the run

Youre thinking up your white lies
Youre putting on your bedroom eyes
You say youre coming home but you wont say when
But I can feel it coming
If you leave tonight keep running
And you need never look back again

{refrain x 3}

Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from another you been messin around

Choc,

Just thinking of you and hoping all is well. How did your trip go?

Hey Choc,

Even though our sitches are not exactly the same, there are many parallels right now...

Who are these psychic DJ's that are playing certain songs right when we tune in? First thing, Monday morning (which was the day the OM was arriving to stay with my W) I get in the car to head to the gym at 6:45 a.m. and a college station that does not play many Beatles songs to begin with, chooses to play which song???:

...You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end ah little girl

Let this be a sermon
I mean everything I've said
Baby, I'm determined
And I'd rather see you dead...

I do not agree with the violent suggestions of wishing to see my W dead, but I had not heard this song in a long time, and of course I heard it so very differently than in all the years past.

When our lives are in the midst of relationship turmoil and emotional swings, the pop songs we've been hearing for so many years as only background music, suddenly come to life and the lyrics speak to sympathetic vibrations of what the original writers must have been trying to convey, based on their life experiences from years prior to that.

I cannot believe how much pop music is written about relationships coming alive or falling apart. And for me, either genre hurts right now, because the relationship coming to life is the W & OM, and the relationship falling apart is myself & W.

Of course, I am hoping that the genres will do a crossover, and in the future, I can sing along with Chicago's "Alive Again":

...Yesterday I would not have believed
That tomorrow the sun would shine
Then one day you came into my life
I am alive again I am alive again
When you gave your love to me you changed my life
Dreams that once seemed hopeless come with ease
Thank you girl for being just the way you are
I would never try to change you
All I live for is to love you
I'm feeling alive again
I'm feeling alive again...

For now, Choc, keep the positive songs in rotation in your mind's play list, and whistle the optimistic ones when you can.

LG

Checking to see how Choc is doing. How his dad is doing.

Lou

Thanks, Lou, and thank you all for your notes of encouragement and concern. A bit of an update:

First of all, my Dad had a blessed and wonderful 80th birthday. The weather forecast in Chicago as late as a rainy Saturday was for 60% chance of rain and thunderstorms on Sunday, his birthday, but the big day arrived with clear-blue skies, the temperatures rose to a low-humidity, sunny 75 degrees, and the event itself was perfect. A great slide show put together by my SIL (with a little music consulting help from yours truly, "Mr. Song Lyrics" himself, of course, who chose a Dolly Parton and a Cat Stevens cut), great food, and just warm and loving company.

My dad was truly honored. We spent the next day driving up to Milwaukee, where my sister had rented a tour bus that we all hopped on, and my dad, his brother and my mom sat up front and reminisced over the microphone/PA system while we drove the neighborhoods where he grew up, the houses he lived in, the places he worked, where he met my mom, etc. It was really cool.

My marriage is thus:

I have confronted my wife, and am working thru the process with NOP and trying to shine a light, a path, for my wife back to our marriage. While she is physically still at home, she is emotionally somewhere else, the dopamine in her confused brain firing off (or do the synapses fire off? I always get that confused $\:\)$ ) and she's refusing to end all contact with OM.

I am working the plan, while being loving, kind and respectful, and expecting my daughters to do the same do the best of their ability. They are HURT, and understandably upset with their mother, and it's killing Mrs. Choc. to see them angry and distant.

But actions have consequences.

I'm not posting much, so as to keep things simple (not "easy" by any stretch, but "simple") as, emotionally, I have moments when I'm a wreck.

But then God strengthens.

I have a wonderful, wonderful support group with my parents and siblings, and NOP has been a blessing. I feel like I have a former catburgler teaching me how to burgle-proof my house, and an AA sponsor available to me 24/7, and a wise but firm older brother, all wrapped into one.

So far, every reaction has been predictable, and everything has followed the script, something that really amazes me. I was in denial for awhile, until confronted with the painful evidence. Turns out D20 and D18 both already knew/suspected, independently of each other, and both afraid to tell me.

Sad.

But I am learning to grow, and learning to set (and enforce) boundaries that will serve me well if not in this marriage, then in my next relationship, and I'm learning to "fall in like" again with the man in the mirror.

He waren't lookin' too attractive before. Emotional cowardice is never very attractive.

I thank you all for your words of encouragement and support. Please don't be insulted in any way for my lack of advice solicitation on here; even my sibling group I've narrowed down for sake of clarity and my own sanity.

I want my wife back, and not this alien who has invaded her beautiful, but cold, body. I want her for me, for our family, sure, but mostly I just want her back PERIOD. This one looks too sad and confused.

Chocolateeyes

We're still cheering you on!!! We're all pulling for ya!

Good for you for confronting her. I think it is best to confront right away. Boy oh boy it has to be hard for her to see the error in her ways right now. Expecially with the kiddos knowing. How humiliating. Well, maybe for some people. I know I would be.

Choc I pray for strength for you. I know this has to be hard. I am so proud of you for calling her out on the carpet and for fighting for your marriage!

Oh, Three Cheers for YOU, choc \o/\o/\o/

And I am thrilled you have NOP in your corner too. Keep us posted as you are able/willing, we are so rooting for you!

oh PS: that tour bus thing ya'll did for your dad's birthday is the COOLEST IDEA EVER, I LOVE it!!

Choc,

Glad to read your update. What a great birthday celebration for your dad! It sounds like you're doing very well. Keep it up!

mrs.cac

Hi, folks.

I don't want to say much, but I have to comment that in the last week or so, Choc has grown a pair the size of cannonballs.

I mean to tell you that the man is having to walk with skid-plates to keep the sparks down.

Absolutely HUGE.

Way to go Choc.

-NOPkins-

Hip Hip Hooray for Choc !!!! ^5

I am so excited to hear this news (and the NOP-version) - I cannot wait until we're at a juncture to spill the details. It's great to sit on the curb and cheer this parade.

Believing,

Thanks for your encouragement. Your footnote verses were a real comfort to me yesterday; I just wanted you to know that.

Choc.

Can I borrow 'em some time ????

Choc, I lived and breathed those verses through the A.

You can do it my friend. You ARE doing it. I can't tell you how excited I am for you (which must seem crazyfied from the middle of difficulty, but oh, I see so much good going on in you. woohoo!)

Cadesmom, if you're asking about the verses - the bible is for everyone, sister! (mine are from The Message translation, i.e. plain English)

But if you're asking about NOP, take a number (ha). I'd love him in my pocket as a Life Advisor too!

Quote:

But I am learning to grow, and learning to set (and enforce) boundaries that will serve me well if not in this marriage, then in my next relationship, and I'm learning to "fall in like" again with the man in the mirror.

Glad to hear that Choco.
It's amazing what a M trauma can do in terms of personal growth. Make some lemonade out of those lemons. You are sure to be more attractive to your W if you keep going on this path.
$\:\)$
LFL

Well, first, the Bible got me through the D bomb sitch, so I've already got that!

Actually I would love NOP in my pocket as an advisor only (not coming on to you NOP) $\:\)$

I was really talking about his HUGE balls of steel $\:\)$

LforL,

Thanks for the notes of encouragement; they mean a lot to me, and you all keep me going, you really do. I have great, great moments and some horribly sad ones, but the overall trend is UPWARD in terms of my personal growth as a man, as a father, and as a husband.

I have detected no contact from my W to OM since I've been back from Chicago (no text messages, no phone calls, and no running errands at odd times), but I am not so naive as to think she has cut off all contact with him. She still trains with him, for one, and she has refused three times to end the friendship, and so I have proceeded accordingly with confrontation and exposure, albeit slower than NOP probably would have liked/recommended.

Today she is at mandatory company training, and OM may be there. I cannot control that, but can only control my reactions to her continued denials and reluctance to emotionally recommit to the marriage and to our family, and those reactions have been loving but FIRM.

One of the saddest things about this past week was that the keylogger on the home computer turned up some things that I had to confront D18 about, things that a girl's mother should have to discuss with her. I felt like a single dad already. $\:\($ But I do think that my message got thru to her, and more importantly the godly example I've been leading lately is being noticed by her and her 20 year old sister.

I press on.

Choc.

Tryingtoholdon,

I do think that she has been humiliated. That came when D18 confronted her with the rumors she'd heard, the behavior she'd witnessed (she personally witnessed her mother leaving the group at the sports pub, at same time as OM, and then not come up for another 75 minutes; hiding of text messages; secretive phone calls), and the godawful Google search topics she had found on the computer. Bravely, she confronted her mother with ALL of this, and told her how much she had hurt her.

And D20 still has yet to have HER talk with her, which will only further push my wife deeper into her own chit that she's made.

I worry about her fleeing, rather than facing the humiliation of this all, but I cannot control that. Confrontation and exposure has been the only thing that has even gotten her off the dime, and so it was necessary. I can only hope that my loving gestures and my occasional reminders of "We care for you" and my occasional (but brief) strong hugs are letting her know that there is still a warm light waiting for her to come back to here in her family.

There's a fine line between "humliation" and godly "conviction." I think God is dealing with her, thru me, and thru her daughters, and she is rebelling thus far, but starting to be broken. My sister likes to say that "God will break you before He'll fix you," and Mrs. Choc. needs to be broken. It's happening slowly.

But I also know that you have to "get real" with Him, and she has to "get real" with her husband and her daughters and her parents, and she is only sloowwwwwwly doing that. And I believe she has only "gotten real" with OM by trying to "manage" the relationship, like an alcoholic tries to manage their drinking, by saying "no sleeping together/no texting/no phone calls to my house", but still wants him to train her.

She still doesn't realize that that's not going to work, because the chemicals running around her brain from his contact are preventing her from reconnecting emotionally with her husband, and working on her marriage. "NO CONTACT" means "NO CONTACT." And so, Truman must drop the next atom bomb, which makes me very sad. $\:\($

Choc.

TRAPPED

(Jimmy Cliff)

Seems like I'm caught up in your trap again
Seems like I'll be wearin' the same old chains
Good will conquer evil and the truth will set me free
And I know someday I will find the key
I know somewhere I will find the key
Seems like I've been playing your game way too long
Seems the game I've played has made you strong
When the game is over, I won't walk out the loser
I know someday I'll walk out of here again
And I know that someday I'll walk out of here again

Well now I'm
Trapped
Ooh yeah
Trapped
Ooh yeah
Trapped

Seems like I've been sleeping in your bed too long
Seems like you've been meaning to do me harm
But I'll teach my eyes to see
beyond these walls in front of me
Someday I'll walk out of here again
Someday I'll walk out of here again

Trapped
Ooh yeah
Trapped
Ooh yeah
Trapped
Ooh yeah
Trapped
Ooh yeah

Seems like I've been playing your game way too long
Seems the game I've played has made you strong

Trapped
Ooh yeah
Trapped
Ooh yeah
Trapped
Ooh yeah
Trapped
Ooh yeah

Well, I found out last nite that:

a) Wife drove with OM to a company training session yesterday, and then lied to me about it. Furthermore, his presence in her car made her unable to respond to my text message invitation to join me on her way home in picking out S14's graduation gift, so her inappropriate behavior is continuing to spoil family life as she's gone from being a bad wife to also being a bad mother.

b) Despite my boundary -- and her promise -- of "no contact" from within the walls of our home, or in front of our children, I found out that she has been making phone calls from the home phone to him for each of the past 3 days, and has called him from here more than a dozen times over the past month.

I confronted her about both of these things last nite, and she just continued to lie. It got ugly. I called her "A LIAR AND A CHEAT!" in front of the kids, which I regret, but in a calmer moment, alone, I told her that I was done with this fight, that she was no longer worth fighting FOR.

Today is a horribly sad day for me. D20 and D18, my two baby girls, move out of our house and into the world, and last night I had to tell them both that I can no longer fight for a woman who has cheated on me, continues to lie to me, and has met none of my primary needs for most of the past 20 years. I COULD, if I wanted to, but I realize that there is no longer anything in there that I love, and that woman that I fell in love with left long, long ago. Since she feels the same way about me anyway, I really don't see the point in all of this, as we're only making each other miserable, we're prolonging the kids' (and our own) agony, and we might as well get a 6-month headstart on the rest of our lives.

I wanted to let you all know. I told NOP last nite. He disagrees, saying that "all cheaters lie," and that I can't base my decision to give up the fight on those lies, and so I prayed about it and slept on it, at his encouragement. I feel no differently this morning, and what I'm realizing is that it's not just the post-OM woman that I've fallen out of love with -- it's the cold, frigid often-b#&ch that has been in my life most of the past 20 years. The main "WIFE" quality that attracted me 23 years ago was the way she felt about -- and treated -- me (talk about "fused", huh), and that's been gone for a long, LONG time. And the main "PERSON" quality that I at least continued to admire and respect was the type of mother that she was, and now she's making horrible, horrible decisions there as well.

I've tried to point all of this out to her, firmly but lovingly, for the past two weeks, and love her thru this, but not only has she not taken the FIRST little baby step to meet me somewhere in the middle, she's lied and lied and lied throughout, and pushed her entire family further away.

She's about to get what she's been wishing for.

I want to thank you all for your enouragement, and your help and advice, at a time when I had very little (or nothing) to give in return on each of your threads. I especially want to thank NOPkins, my brother, who's been there for me in ways that I did not deserve, 24/7, with either a kick in the azz or loving Christian encouragement, as the situation dictated. He's incredible, and I could not have handled my children this past week without his wise counsel, and WHATEVER "Man, I'm gonna miss that Choc." thoughts my wife may take out of this marriage will probably only come from the self-improvements that he helped me to display in front of her during this time.

Chocolateeyes

I'm sorry Choco.
And I don't blame you one bit.
At this point, it sounds like you need to let her go and maybe it will still work out in the end. That is, if you still want it to work down the line. Who knows.
So what are you going to do about the continued disrespect in your home? What does your W say? Does she want a S/D?
LFL

Yes, my wife has WANTED a separation since I confronted her 3 weeks ago. We can't afford separate living arrangements, I have told her in no uncertain terms am I moving out, and she's mortified at the thought of going to her parents. (In fact, she not only doesn't want them to know about OM, she doesn't even want them to know we're having marital problems, and that bomb is going to go off tomorrow when I talk to them).

The only reason she doesn't want a divorce is how it would "look" (appearances are very big with this woman), to her parents, to our kids. She wants to go thru the charade of counseling (D18 overheard her telling her brother that she was only doing it for appearances), and save divorce for when the boys are bigger.

She will no longer call that shot.

I don't know what I can do about the boundaries. She obviously doesn't care what her family thinks of her. All I can do is push for my staying here, with our boys, and trying to push her the hell out.

Choc.

Ugh.
Well, then is sounds like one of the best things you can do is destroy the "appearances." I'm sure Nop is guiding you there. Who the heck cares what other people think about your M? It is between the two of you.
I've been there Choco. Lots of people like to make comments either in front or behind your back about the "scandal" in this and that M. F-em! Do what is right for your M and for you.
Sounds like your W needs to get over that "appearances" hurdle for sure. What man with any self-respect is going to live in a house with a cheating W "til the boy's are older" just for appearances?! She's lost her marbles.
Keep going Choco. You know that right things to do. We'll be cheering for you.
LFL

Thanks, LFL.

Choc,

I am so sorry you are going through this. I just have to say you can take advice from other people. But in the end you have to handle this the way your heart leads you to handle it. Only you can know just how much crap you can take.

I think exposure is good. She created this. Let her wallow in it and see how that feels for awhile. Let her go stay with her parents and feels what it is like to lose her whole family just for some kicks from a younger man. Let her think about how her finances as a part time instructor are going to support her. The life she was once very comfortable with may just be over. Let her face the humiliation of what she has done. I don't know how your state is but in my state you very much hold the upper hand in a court of law if the spouse cheated.

I think you took a very firm stand for yourself and your dignity.She maybe just thought the old non-confrontational Choc would just sit by and never say a word. You are showing her a whole new side to you. A complete 180.

Yep.

She's about to be handed both her BMW payment ($696), her Visa payment ($300), and her cellphone is going to be taken off of our account. The Visa's in her name, and 2/3rd of the balance is her tummy tuck, so if she wants to keep her credit clean, she can figure out a way between her and OM to pay that. The BMW is in my name, but my own credit is already so damaged, that if they have to reposess it, they can, but I'm not making the payments on it. As for the cellphone, I will not pay for something that is used as a communication tool of her affair.

"Reality" has just come calling on her little fantasy world.

Choc.

Choc,

Sorry all this is happening. I can tell you from experience that people involved in A's often have no idea what damage it is going to cause, until it happens. Sometimes the damage has to go nuclear to wake them up. From my own sitch, the A was a wake-up call to my bad M. I was kinda hoping your W would do the same thing, wake-up one day and not only realize that the A is bad, but also come to a realization that a M with an A has serious problems that need to be fixed in a serious, conscious, coordinated way. I think she will wake up, but it may not be until you and her are split.

One thing you should probably be considering is that she will probably wake-up and want to get back with you sometime in the future. How are you going to handle that? I know you say that what you love about her is gone, but love is a tricky thing. If she were to come back to you with "guns blazing" so to speak (i.e. being everything you wanted her to be), what are you going to do? It might be a good thing if you could talk to Blackfoot and others who have gone through reconciliation attempts to get some advice.

Chrome

I would say "no thanks."

BT, DT, not doin' it again.

Choc,

I know you have mentioned you felt your finances were haywire sort of speak. It sounds like she has very much contributed to this. Not one but two BMW she has? Yikes! Then a 300.00 a month payment you have taken on for her plastic surgery? Since she is now working can I ask what she does with her money?

Boy she really is in for a rude awakening. Also I am curious how did she react when her own children confronted her? I know I would be mortified. Were your daughters angry or hurt? You are right she is making very poor choices as a mother.

Choc, I'm so sorry for this turn of events, but I agree with LFL, no one can blame you or say you didn't try. I also agree with Chrome that she will probably want to come back at some point. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

(((((choc)))))

Choc,

I'm so sorry you are going through this pain. But NOP is right, cheaters lie. The problem in your M has never been about OM, so I am not sure why you are letting that make or break things.

You are wrong that your W has made no effort or given you nothing. Her emails and discussion tell you that she is open to working on things. What she has not given you is what YOU want on YOUR timetable. W is all over the place. At one moment she probably feels that she needs to try everything to save her M, at another moment she probably sees it as pointless, and counseling as something that she will only do for the sake of the kids. She doesn't know what she wants, though you are really pushing her to make a decision before she is ready. And, that will surely be a decision in favor of throwing in the towel. You have to give her time and space to want to try to reconcile. Even if you have no interest in reconciling and you are going to S and D without doubt, then there is no reason not to give her the time and space, for her private life is then no longer your concern.

Please quit sharing with your kids. It is enough for them to know that Mom and Dad are having some problems. Period. They don't need to know what they are. You don't need to bash Mom. It is VERY damaging to put them in the position of having to bash Mom to avoid feeling like they are betraying you.

If you are set on S or D, then I really don't see how it is any of YOUR business to tell HER parents what is going on. Don't lie, but don't involve yourself unnecessarily. If contact becomes necessary for some reason, simply tell them: W and I are S. There is no productive reason for you to get into more than that with them.

That being said, take care of yourself businesswise. Let her pay her Visa. Can you sell the BMW to limit your losses? It doesn't make sense to give her an expensive piece of property like that on which you are still making payments.

Keep enforcing your boundaries � you said no calls, she made them, stop paying her cell phone. Block his number from the home phone. But don't do it with drama, just do it. "W, you have not respected my no contact boundary. I am taking steps to enforce that boundary."

I really do not think you are anywhere near emotionally ready for a D. When you are ready to D, it is no longer that big a deal in many ways. Right now, you are very emotional and acting out. Your pain is raw and deep and jagged. It simply doesn't feel like that when you are ready to D. Again, if you haven't, for your own sake and your kids, read DR. Read some sitches like GH's. You are losing the advantage you started with. If you decide to DB and participate on one of the DB forums and would like me to check on you from time to time, let me know.

Quote:

If you decide to DB and participate on one of the DB forums and would like me to check on you from time to time, let me know.

uhm....isn't this a DB forum?

Quote:

Even if you have no interest in reconciling and you are going to S and D without doubt, then there is no reason not to give her the time and space, for her private life is then no longer your concern.

I agree with the time and space part. But his W needs to sh*t or get off the pot. She needs to stop pretending their M is fine in terms of "appearances." She needs to either move out or they need to work on the M. Any other way is disrespectful. I disagree with the "stay in the house at all costs" approach. It is way too damaging to the a person's psyche and self-esteem. It sounds like she wants to keep up the appearances in house, while still maintaining the OM R. That is just prolonging the pain and also making Choco look weak if you ask me. What woman wants a man that let's her f*ck around under his household? She will lose respect for him and then the M may be beyond broken.
LFL

LFL,

Sorry, of course this is a DB forum. I meant one of the forums focused on DR and DB, rather than SSM.

I agree that the "stay in the house at all costs" approach is a bad one. I'm not sure who you think supports this approach. But, certainly not me nor DR nor DB.

Everyone needs to set and enforce their own boundaries in a way that works for them. This looks very different for different people, but that is OK. You are right that the important thing is to respect oneself through the process. Doormatting is never productive.

Oldtimer,

She is an addict and an infidel. She is addicted to the high that she gets from her contact with another man, and until that contact ends, she will continue to lie and do ANYTHING to protect the source of her "high" and to make it to her next contact with him.

Confrontation and exposure is the only way to go, and so I am giving it my best to follow that course of action. The daughters are a part of that since they are adults, and so are my wife's parents, and so are the OM's parents. I really don't want to get into a debate with you on it, but refer to Harley and Glass and others about intervention techniques and rationales.

I do thank you for your well-wishes, tho.

Choc.

chocolateeyes I just read the latest posts and I am sorry it had to come to this.

It is good to see the "disrespect is over" chocolateeyes operating.

I have to agree with I really don't want to get into a debate with you on it, but refer to Harley and Glass and others about intervention techniques and rationales.
combined with LFL opinions and NOP's help.

You and others helping you, have my deepest respect.

Lou

Oldtimer, the BMW was a lease.

Choc,

I agree that she is acting like an addict, absolutely.

Confrontation and exposure is the not the only way to go, but if you want to use that strategy to try to save your M, that is one way to go.

But, whether or not some recommend it, I think that continuting to involve your Ds in the marital issues between you and W, whether they involve OM or otherwise, is very damaging to them, even if they are 18 and 20. Simple exposure is one thing. Repeated exposure and discussion is just not fair to them. It is TRAUMATIC. Don't put them in the position of having to take sides to love their father properly.

But, anyway, one point I was trying to make is that you are contradicting yourself -- you say you are throwing in the towel, that you do not want to save your M. In that case, the confrontation and exposure with respect to the in-laws and/or OM's parents are at best pointless, at worst merely vindictive.

If in fact you are still trying to save your M, then own that and quit saying you are throwing in the towel. You really aren't. So, get a grip, don't lapse back into the "don't give a sh*t" excuse to cover your behavior. Keep trying until you are Done with a capital D. When you get to that point, there will unmistakable peace and clarity, along with relief, and no drama about it.

In the meantime, there is still a lot of potential for things working out for your M. And, there is even more potential for you to come out the other side much better than you dreamed possible, no matter what happens. Keep the focus on YOU, treating yourself well, enforcing your boundaries, respecting yourself, getting happy on your own. I certainly understand if part of this is setting a boundary when it comes to participating in maintaining appearances to keep W and OM comfy. Expose and confront if you must, but keep it simple and direct. You don't need ongoing drama and fanfare around it. It is not the problem in your M, it ending will not fix your M, you cannot control it, only yourself. So, focus on YOU.

I know it is hard right now, but the Choc of a couple of days ago was really sounding great. I think you'll see him again pretty darn soon too.

Choc,

I think I get was OT is saying. The decision to D shouldn't be made from feelings of anger or revenge, no matter how justified those feelings may be. I'm not a psychology expert, but I do know that decisions made in anger will usually haunt the person afterwards. Even people who are as sure as they can be that D is the right thing still struggle with doubts afterwards from time to time. You have hiked the Andes my man, don't let this last mountain, no matter how jagged or cold or high it is, defeat you. Surely the MAN who was able to sustain years of neglect from his W can hold out a little longer and not let some invader chase him out. Sorry for the lame analogies, I'm full of them.

One thing to consider, and this may sound weird, is that once you go down the road of thinking about D, you also have to think about life after D. Who do you want to be post-D? A man saddled with doubts about his previous M, or a man with a clear conscience. You may already be a man with a clear conscience, only you can decide that.

As for your previous reply, I will say you have made REPEATED references to the "fetching MrsChoc." Again, just think, there may be a time when she will wake up and come at you with every "trick" (not necessarily malicious or contrived) in the book. I don't know about you, but I've only had that happen to me once in my life, and we all know what happened there. I just hope you are mentally prepared to see that for what it is, either an honest attempt to get back in your good graces, or a dishonest attempt to mollify you to gain time. I'm not wise enough to tell the difference, perhaps others here are.

Best wishes as always,
Chrome

Choc .... Nopkins is right, all cheaters lie. I think the decision to take a stand, expose to her family, make her move, are perfectly understandable. She needs to really, really, really see what she is losing.

However. You were willing to give her a chance, before. You're angry now. Again, totally understandable. But her brain is in a mess. Just like you wouldn't hold someone who is mentally impaired as responsible for a crime as someone totally clear-headed, her lies right now are not her being sane. Make her live with her parents. Pay for her stuff. And then see what happens if her brain clears, and she is actually able to make some choices.

Decisions made in the throes of any wild feelings .... hurt, anger, lust .... usually don't last.

I think you're a really good man, Choc, and I've been amazed at your growth in such a short time. Whatever happens, you'll be proud of the man you see in the mirror. I wish you all the best.

I'm so sorry it's come down to this for you, Choc. However, you should remember that all the personal growth you are experiencing by dealing with this ordeal like the man all of us here always knew you had the potential to be will always be with you. Unfortunately for your W, the opposite will be true for her. I feel sorry for her when I think about the kind of cr*p relationship she will have if she ends up with the OM. I can hear her pathetic cries of fusion already "I gave up my family life, a loving H and violated my values for you, please love me enough to make it worthwhile."

Choc:

Hey. Amazing what happens when you move off center, isn't it?

I don't blame you one WHIT for your anger, etc., etc. And even if you want to be pissed, and be bound and determined to end it all... don't blame you. Do what you need to do.

I think the moves you are making regarding her finances are spot on. If anyone leaves, it SHOULD be her.

Find a good attorney. Get some really good advice, in terms of your finances and your kids. Get her out of the house, and go dark.

And then move very, very slowly. For six months. Get yourself to a very good shrink and work through that bitterness and anger. That's what you are feeling, you know.

But... do NOT sign on the dotted line... until that anger is gone. Seriously. If you do, you do... there is no saying that somewhere down the road the two of you couldn't get back together (and I hear you thinking... yeah RIGHT... whatEVER).

You are more in control of your M than you ever have been, probably in all the time you've been married. I know it doesn't FEEL that way, but you are.

I'm going to throw my hat into NOP's ring with the advice he is giving you... and I know you don't want to hear that... not right now. So pretned I didn't say it. $\:\)$

I'm also going to encourage you to maybe take OT's advice... I don't know... in a FEW weeks... wander on over to the DB/DR threads... take a look around... {shrug}. If not... cool.

Everything is one day at a time, right now, buddy. Work out. Get that anger flowing OUT of you...

But then, if you don't want to... and you feel like telling me to jump off a cliff... I can handle that, too. Please do. Vent. As Shrek says... "Better Out that In, is what I always say."

I'm with you in spirit, dear man.

Corri

Oldtimer,

I actually agree with everything you said. As of this morning, this, their moving day that they are all excited about, I told my daughters that I would only let them know what they wanted to know, and that it was time for me to stop involving them. They needed to know, as part of the exposure circle of adults, but then I just need to be here for them when they have specific questions.

Thanks for your kind words of encouragement.

Choc.

Choc-

Sympathetic two-hand shoulder squeeze to you, my good man. I was afraid the feelings you're feeling right now were gonna surface sooner or later, having BTDT. Blackfoot, burgbud, Heywyre, TTHO, FFW, thatguy et all can attest. They really suck. That hole in your stomach while you feel a snowballing lack of respect for Mrs. Choc building towards disgust.

Try not to lose that love you have deep down for her man, as shown in your posts. There is a good woman buried somewhere under all of that mess who is confused and more than scared, although her active conscience is not aware of this part of her just yet.

But the day will come.

The more she realizes what she will be losing as you methodically start taking your love and support away from her and compares it to what she will be gaining with OM the more that fear will start to awaken her.

NOPkins and the infidelity experts out there IRL are spot on. All cheaters lie. Even the most moral upright Christians who no one would ever suspect in a billion years would act with such willful deceit lie.

The chemicals drive her or him to risk literally everything for an OP who is sometimes a complete lost cause, like a drug addict, abusive monster, or, it seems more and more in the media these days, even to the point of a young high school or even junior high school and, yuck, grade school boy or girl.

I just shake my head at these sometimes gorgeous young teachers who have a great husband, house, and little ones who ruin their entire life and crush the lives of their families over the attentions of a 14, 15, 16 year old boy. Not to mention their own self-respect and reputations as they lose their good jobs, are shunned by friends and neighbors, and are even willing to risk being thrown in prison (twice in the case of Mary Jo Liturno).

Forget opiates. Forget nicotine. Forget alcohol. IMO these chemicals are microgram for microgram the single most (or collectively) powerful brain-altering chemicals in human existence.

Mrs. Choc has issues that are beyond you and try not to hate her for them. For some reason she needs the "buzz" of external validation to make her feel good about herself.

Age comments, tummy tucks, BMWs, belly shirts, associating with much younger people and wanting to fit in or at least relive some care-free days of youth. Denial.

That kind of behavior pretty much flags a person as having no real core identity in terms of self-esteem and inner directedness and inner guidance that comes from a place of being a secure-with-yourself person.

It's why I, like Cobra among others, pretty much don't believe in this whole "disease" BS proffered by some way more educated than myself "pros" as they describe that label "Mid Life Crisis."

Nuh uh. I might be "diagnosed" as having this MLC "disease" this very minute from the symptomatic behavior currently going on in my life but I find such fobbing off of my own responsibility on to some phony convenient illness to be an incredibly weak, foolish, passive, and disgusting reaction.

Boo hoo, I'm a victim. I'm a victim. Boo hoo.

No, I lost my purpose and path. My future as I once had envisioned it is now dust blowing in the wind. I have to build a new one now. Kinda like what Deida refers to in his writings. I firmly believe that OP who know EXACTLY what they want out of life and are on that "path" or passion, and refuse to let OP knock them off it, will never fall "victim" to a so-called MLC. They are certain and MLC=uncertainty.

Bringing this back round to Mrs. Choc. She probably has this same uncertainty.

It's probably what's causing her to lie to you and your family. She probably doesn't want to but the addict can't listen to self or others since there is no fixed, secure core of identity within her. She seems to have attached finding her own idenity through OM. And that's a recipe for disaster, as we already know.

You've both unwittingly frozen each other out emotionally for years and something had to give IMO. In a weird way it had to happen and one of you had to make the first move.

She did something to break the frost first unfortunately. I think it could have just as easily been you if perhaps you were less inclined in your faith in God, your sense of your own morality, and your inert, yet steady dimly burning love for Mrs. Choc.

Whatever the case, the life you two were leading: no kisses, no touching, no sex, no sitting next to each other, passing like ships? was unsustainable. Something big was going to hit the reset button and she found it. Whether she felt neglected by you and wanted to test you hard to get you to be jealous (which she even said bothered her about you) and unwittingly crossed the line or gave an opening to OM out of a self-loathing that you didn't feel her worthy enough to pursue.

Don't get me wrong, she is equally to blame. The high maintenance as you say, the dodging of your kisses when you would try, the not pursuing you for years as well to make you feel desirable. The terrible conflict avoidance so as not to address your R problems before they reached the A level.

And despite it all you've been a good dad and provider without finding the need to carry on with an OW for your "needs."

Don't give up hope just yet, Choc. You have a lot of years together and those brown eyes to carry on your heritage. Do take away what's enabling her to continue disrespecting your R and herself.

But don't forget that love we've seen from your posts.

There is an infidelity professional out there on the web. Not many of them even want to touch this stuff. But blackfoot pointed me to him way back when I first started posting and the Dr. has a lot of useful information. Not going to link out of respect for MWD but in my opinion infidelity is a real monster and very few professionals are willing to focus their entire careers on this single scariest R killer. Just Google "Dr. Huizenga". I have no ties nor do I back anything he says. It's just a useful reference on breaking free from how you're feeling and might help you understand what you're going through Choc.

Hang in There Brother. Hold tight. We said it was gonna be a rollercoaster and you're click-clacking slowly up another really big drop. If you can keep hold of yourself and your rage Mrs. Choc will one day see how you handled all of this with patience and realize what a man she had. Whether you work it out or whether you decide to let her go. Just try and be in the position to have both options for now.

In my own case, I think the best reaction I had in the whole thing was to say, "I accept the way you feel about me (not in love anymore), even if I don't understand it. But I'm not going to beg or plead. If you don't want me then I will find another F who thinks I'm worth keeping."

And I left a few weeks after the bomb. LFL is right. If my life weren't so tied down I would have left that very day. No way in hell could I live with a woman I still deeply loved who didn't want me around. Those weeks of coldness were enough to make my self-respect throttle me and kick my own azz to vanish and go dark, which I did.

And I think my recognizing her feelings without going into a rage is what caused her to test my waters 7 months later. I like to believe my reaction earned at least a little respect from her, which I'm pretty sure it did, judging from her attempts to engage me months later with a few terms of endearment.

But, like LG, you are the rare ones. I just read recently on MSN where 60% of the cheaters believe they are getting away with their infidelity and a whopping 94% of the ones being cheated on are unaware of their SO's affair. You've both managed to be in that rare 6% to find out in media res. A small victory but a victory in a position where everything feels like defeat.

Again, hang on to the rollercoaster lap bar. I'm glad you're staying and letting her be accountable for her own housing and bills. Inform her that no way in hell are you going to continue to subsidize her immature and immoral behavior.

It will be kinda hard for her to pay a $695 monthly car lease on $600 monthly income. And I'd wager OM already feels more than a little insecure you've proven yourself to be a better family provider than he is. I'm sure that sticks in his self-esteem craw nicely.

Ain't a whole lotta commissions or margins in the gym trainer biz, eh, choco? I think we call that bad verticality and limited scaleability IRL.

finally, as I like to say to OP IRL debating a major life change, and what I would say to Mrs. Choc if I had the chance:

"If you can't pay the fare, better damned well not take the ride."

-Stigmata-

Hey Choc,

Here is one of the top 5 most important things I took away from my D.

When it was all over, the only things I regreted were the times I lost control of my emotions.

Your anger is justified. You should not ignore it, nor suppress it, but you must control and channel it in the right directions. You NEED help to do that.

Her Lies are a good thing, as ironic as that sounds. She is lying out of fear. Can your understand that? Can you make use of it? Im telling you, you can, if you allow help. Choc, I couldnt stand the MC we had, cause her efforts were rudimentary, half understood, and transparant IMO. I would have gladly paid NOP, to help keep me centered.
Listen to him. You dont have to like it. You just have to do it.

The only thing you really need to worry about right now is you. Get rid of the Beemer. Break the lease, swap the lease, sell it, whatever it takes. Knocking off that outstanding balance, even if you eat a few grand will do wonders for your FICO. There are options and help. When my sitch happened, I had a long chat with myself, that no matter what happened, no matter what I felt, NOTHING was more important then my FICO. NOTHING. I had my reasons for my financial choices the whole R, I would stick my middle finger in imaginary OP gun barrel and dare them to pull it, before I changed them. It was really really hard. Everything is reallly really hard for you right now.
Somewhere underneath there is a voice of reason talking to you and hearing what must be done, but hurts worse then being driven over with a asphalt smoother.

OT is still right. OM is not the problem. In fact were you not in the Sh!t, you would see how ridiculous her warped perception and attraction for him are. The sooner you can see the ridiculousness of it, the better for everyone.

The plan was, point right at the elephant, matter of factly call it and its big pile of Stinking Sh1t what they are, then hand her a shovel.
Corri was right, you have too much opportunity to learn to many important parts of life, to sign the papers yet. Your not a man of steel yet, right now you are a man of hissing sputtering dross. Give your W the opportunity to hammer on you some more, till you are a flexible, sharp and tempered sword that can cut thru the heaviest armor with nary a scratch.

Focus on you. Examine every aspect of your life you want to improve.

Come here. Rage at her, HERE. yell at us... or me at least. $\:\)$ Vent. HERE. and then be prepared for and greet her hammer blows, untill they merely make you ring like a tuning fork of your true inner self.

You have every right, and opportunity and ability to D. Noone will fault you. That choice and ability is not going anywhere.
For the moment, keep it for you. A man is expected to keep his word. Choose them carefully. Use them rarely.

The Beatles
With a Little Help From My Friends

A little help from my friends
What would you think if I sang out of tune,
Would you stand up and walk out on me.
Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song,
And I'll try not to sing out of key.
I get by with a little help from my friends,
I get high with a little help from my friends,
Going to try with a little help from my friends.
What do I do when my love is away.
(Does it worry you to be alone)
How do I feel by the end of the day
(Are you sad because you're on your own)
No I get by with a little help from my friends,
Do you need anybody,
I need somebody to love.
Could it be anybody
I want somebody to love.
Would you believe in a love at first sight,
Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time.
What do you see when you turn out the light,
I can't tell you, but I know it's mine.
Oh I get by with a little help from my friends,
Do you need anybody,
I just need somebody to love,
Could it be anybody,
I want somebody to love.
I get by with a little help from my friends,
Yes I get by with a little help from my friends,
With a little help from my friends.

Get a plan choco. Stick to the plan. The only way thru the storm is straight on. At the end of the day, float or founder, you are a man, and your choices are yours.

Hey Choc,

I truly am feeling your pain - as I am typing right now, I am experiencing heart palpatations which happens to me when I am under high stress. I first had this happen on a cold, sleeting night in February when my W was making phone calls to OM. (I did have a series of EKG and treadmill tests and my heart is fine - I am learning how to apply the relaxation response to these situations).

On Saturday night, for the first time, I started halfway considering the option of me filing for D, but I spoke with a member of my church who has worked as a counselor, and I realized in my spiritual heart (not my flittering physical one) that I [and my W] need to go through the next months for a reason that we may not fully understand right now.

I can completely empathize with what your are dealing with. One healthy thing that I did last week while the OM was staying with my W, was go out and purchase one of those plastic foam water noodles that is about 3 inches in diameter. I cut it down to a length of a baseball bat and whenever I felt anger and rage building up, I swung it at an inflated exercise ball I have. Each time I hit the ball, I would also verbally shout words that needed to be expressed too. This has helped me channel anger out physically, and keep me in a healthier place.

Last evening, I had an experience where I felt circumstances had been arranged "from above" to help me. I had attended yoga class with about 7 other students. As I was about to leave one of the class members asked our teacher if she would like to grab a cup of tea across the street. My yoga teacher then asked me and another guy who I did not know, if we would like to go too. We got a booth at the coffee house and shortly after we sat down, one of the students who had not seen me in months asked how my W and I were doing. I told them about my separation and what has been going on, and they all listened and gave me some supportive encouragement which helped me feel better. Then the guy who I had never met before, completely opened up. He told me that he has been married for 30 years and it is better than ever right now, but that he had "slipped" a few times in the past. He shared how years ago, he had met another woman, and he was so certain that she was his true soulmate that he left his W in a the most blazing bridge-burning manner that all his friends and relatives were shocked. He described how he was postive he had done the right thing, and he was going forward with a new and exciting life. Then he said, little by little, he would discover a new door opening within the OW, and a little bit more of this OW's inner aspects were revealed to him. Over time he found himself thinking more and more about his W, and her good traits. Months went by, but he was beginning to rethink things, and he could not believe, and he still wonders, how could my W take me back? He said he still finds it hard to believe that he is fortunate enough to be back with her. This is a true story, and his retelling of it to me, with candle light reflecting on his face and eyes, infused me with much hope.

I am in awe of how much wisdom and experience-based advice people on this SSM board have been providing you and I and others. Let us support each other as we go forward in the next weeks and months. I believe in you as I believe in myself.

Hang tough!

LG

Hey choc...I've been out of town for the last week or so, but you were not far from my thoughts. Sorry to hear things haven't improved. As your not-your-lawyer, I recommending retaining one soon. It can't hurt to have some advice on what seems to be coming down the road at you.

Big manly hugs.

Hairdog

Hey Choco,

The last time I checked in..your thread had locked! The lockmonster must REALLY LIKE you a whole lot! $;\)$

Congrats for coming out with guns blazing at your attempts to save the marriage. I can tell you straight out that 3-three weeks into DBing is peanuts! [I am not even counting SSM] How can you devalue yourself and the marriage by throwing in the towel after only 3 weeks after exposure of the affair? For this reason, we call this the rollercoaster or the "Fun House" as I call it.

I will be straight out honest with you:

Your wife is behaving like a crack addict...she needs the OM for her dopamine supply. Unfortunately, many people who have affairs have no sense of groundness or reality of the wide path of destruction they are leaving in their wake. Like many DBers who have successfully pieced their M's, many spouses have come out and said that as time passed...they've come to see the OW/OM's true colors and that's when they began to re-think the foolishness of their perception(s). This is the most crucial point where the LBS presents a much better option than the OW/OM. Choco, check your anger and pride at the door! This isn't the time for it. Your wife needs to see you as the strong and courageous person who fought for her and the family.

Choco, you need to keep all of your wits about you and contain your emotions when around Mrs. Choco. Believe me, I've read tooooo many stories on the BB where the former WAS tells their H/W when reunited that the spouse came out much better when they were steadfast and loving in their commitment to save the marriage. These LBSes never painted the OW/OM in a bad light to the WAS--this only serves to drive them closer to the OP in defense. Don't bother with trying to slander the OM to Mrs. Choco--it will be seen as a direct attack to her via OM.

Stay steady, strong, and firm with your boundaries. Yet remember to contain yourself emotionally when dealing with Mrs. Choco...I know easier said than done.

NOP, I wanted to address your previous entry about "would I support the OP meeting the kids...etc." NEVER! I've seen some really unbelievably doormat behaviors throughout the BB. However, there are two schools of thought in saving one's marriage: Exposure/confrontation vs. DBing in a loving, non-guilt inducing way. I honestly believe that there's NO right way about this process. However, MWD's books only serve as a good road map in pointing us in the right direction...just not THE road map of and in itself. I am sure you would agree with me that taking a destructive approach would be extremely counterproductive for all involved. Hence my urgings to keep one's emotions in check with the wayward spouse and vent all here on the BB.

Choco...keep your chin up! $\:D$ The peanut gallery here is cheering you on in each step of the way! [No, I am not Lucy who takes away the football every time!!]

Hi wonka.

Quote:

NOP, I wanted to address your previous entry about "would I support the OP meeting the kids...etc." NEVER! I've seen some really unbelievably doormat behaviors throughout the BB. However, there are two schools of thought in saving one's marriage: Exposure/confrontation vs. DBing in a loving, non-guilt inducing way. I honestly believe that there's NO right way about this process. However, MWD's books only serve as a good road map in pointing us in the right direction...just not THE road map of and in itself. I am sure you would agree with me that taking a destructive approach would be extremely counterproductive for all involved. Hence my urgings to keep one's emotions in check with the wayward spouse and vent all here on the BB.

Choc can speak for himself, but you can lighten up, he is and has been back in the game, he just needed to change out skid plates.

No one is being destructive, in fact, just the opposite. Choc is busy, but he can get you updated when he gets a chance.

I do agree with you mostly, but I believe that there is a right approach, just that it is different with each situation.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

Wonka,

Thanks for the post. A bit of an update:

ALL of my weak moments, except for one with my wife during the first few days immediately after confrontation that has never been repeated, have come either alone, with NOP, or with my parents or my siblings. God has graced me with unbelievable strength, calmness, and steadfastness in the convos and key moments with my wife, adult children, and the other adults of the exposure, and for that I am thankful and amazed.

My calm in front of my wife, even during yesterday's vile, screaming onslaught (which contained the first "I'm not in love with you anymore" that she has ever admitted), has been almost surreal. SO not me, but yet SO needed in this process, and again I'm grateful to God for giving me that inner peace and resolve that only comes from knowing that you are absolutely doing the right thing, and I'm grateful to NOP who has mentally and emotionally prepared me for every single step that's happened so far (in fact, he's predicted almost all of them ahead of time.)

It's been nothing short of amazing to me how this all follows a pretty predictable "script." Stunning.

Your analogy of the crack addict is apt. The more I study about addictive bahaviors, and the more I think back on my mom's own alcholism, the more this all makes sense. I've studied about brain chemicals that happen during affairs, and during infatuation, and the same chemicals that would make an otherwise smart, rational adult woman WEAR FREAKING DIAPERS as she drove cross-country to "save her man" are making the fetching Mrs. Choc. do some incredibly stupid, and incredibly destructive things to herself, to her husband, and to her family right now.

I believe that when a loved one is addicted, you intervene, and so I've followed intervention strategies and tactics. I understand that's not for everyone, but when you add the context that most of my marriage problems have been caused by an almost dysfunctional LACK of confrontation, I believe it makes the most sense in my situation.

I do not know if it will work.
I absolutely know I have no chance if I DON'T do it.

Not to worry, I am back on the wagon and doing the hard work since I "lost the hate" two nights ago. (or was it 3?? The days and nights so run together these days). Funny thing about the board is (and I'm not picking on everyone -- just an observation), everyone says "vent here -- with us," and yet when you do, everyone thinks you've given up and lost all hope. LOL. But re-reading my posts of the other night, yeah, I was pretty despondent and defeated.

God (and NOP) is equipping me EACH DAY with the strength, and the tools, that I need to handle THAT DAY. That's about all I can do right now. This is going to be a long process. Last night my wife went to stay at D20/D18's condo, and told me "she couldn't stand to look at me." Understandable, considering the exposure that took place yesterday. I was loving and calm in the face of her onslaught and her accusations, and just kept telling her "I am fighting to try and save our marriage," and "I'm trying to keep what's left of our family intact."

So much work to be done . . .

Well we made a promise,
We swore we'd always remember,
No retreat, baby, no surrender . . .

Hairdog,

I plan to do that within the week, thanks. While my daily work has been the short-term, immediate stuff that has needed to be done, I also do need to begin to know what my options are. That's just smart.

thanks for checking in,

Choc.

Corri,

Sorry to you, Stig, LG and Blackfoot for my slow response. I've been a little busy with my plan, and with, frankly, practically being a "single dad" these days, but I'm trying to circle back and catch up with each of you that took the time to post.

And yes, it's amazing -- and scary -- when you get up off the dime, and begin to take back your life. $\:o$

Thank you so much for your loving encouragement. Yes, NOP's road is hard, but the vital ones in life always are, and especially so when you've let them grow over with weeds and debris for far too many years. PATIENCE is the thing I'm having the hardest time with, as I know I've got this 26-mile marathon of marriage repair ahead of me (if it even is to be), and yet I can't even seem to get out of the pre-race stretching area. Until my wife agrees to NO CONTACT and agrees to re-join our family emotionally, we cannot hope to begin the repair process, and that makes me anxious.

My sister told me that "God will break you before He fixes you," and I would add that "you have to WANT (or at least be open to) to being broken."

My wife is not yet there; she is hanging onto her crack stash, and until she lets that go, all I can do is lead my family and work on me, while being loving with her but 100% firm with my boundaries -- which I have done.

And I would never tell you to jump off a cliff, my dear Corri. Cuz I've spent some time over the edge of it the past 3-1/2 weeks, and it sukks down there. Lots of woolly creepy things in the crevaces.

Choc.

Stig,

Thanks for the post. Great, great stuff, and I don't disagree with any of it. So much "meat" in there I'm going to have to circle back and respond to some specifics later on when I have some time.

The increased financial accountability is the next step, and is going to happen very soon. It's part of "taking away the fantasy," and the financial fantasy that I have been allowing her to live is as large in this as the OM fantasy. All I can do is make BOTH situations stark, honest and REAL, and then let her make her decisions. I cannot enable either, in any way.

I am not giving up hope. I have moments of deep hopelessness, but I have not given up hope in general. I'm just having to channel my human emotions in the proper venues, and at the proper times.

As NOP pointed out to me, my kids still need a hero.

Choc.

LG,

I too have had mini-anxiety attacks thru this ordeal. Moments where I have to take deep, deep breaths, over and over, to try to calm myself down, as overwhelming feelings of impending doom and sadness and hopelessness wash over me. Deep breaths, and prayer, and reminders from NOP and from all of you, usually help me get back into my better place, and back on the driver's seat of the Hero Train.

I think it's important to have a calm, informed, detached view of divorce, and have it on the table when talking with a wayward spouse, so that they can see you're strong and not freaked out at the possibility. In fact, I think it kind of freaks MY WIFE out when she knows that it's a possibility for me as well.

But I won't do anything yet, other than seek some legal advice, so I an work on the "informed" part of that equation.

Your "yoga" story is amazing. The more I go thru this, the more convinced I am that God places certain people in your life at the times and the places where you need them, and they come with the words that you need to hear at that given time. I rest on 1Cor. 10:13 and on other verses that promise that God doesn't give us anything that we can't handle, but I do think that we have to open ourselves up and allow others -- even strangers -- to help us in our lowest moments.

You will have my continued support. Our situations are very similar in some ways, and yet very different in others, but the similarities and the shared pain have made me follow your sitch recently.

Hang in there, my friend.

Choc.

Choc you are doing great!! Wow I am amazed. You have changed so much. It is amazing how God will give you strength when you most need it.

I am sure she has had to have told OM that you know. Just curious if you have gone to the gym how he acts. Part of him has to be scared chitless. Are you still making your presence known there?

What was she so angry about yesterday that she left?

Choc,

I am so sorry to hear this latest set of updates. You are doing terrific and I echo the advice from BF about FICO score. During my divorce my goals were to come out of it with custody of my children (at least primary physical custody) and an intact FICO score. Well -that is pretty much what I walked away with. Ex-H had already wiped us out financially and as far as posessions - well, I just let them go. If you are able to keep your equilibrium and allow Mrs. Choc to flounder until she get's a hold of herself then maybe it won't come to that.

I am certainly not one to advise you to divorce or absolutely not to do so - that is for you to decide. I am confident that my divorce was the right thing at the time. However, it was painful and difficult and dh had better just shoot me if he wants to be rid of me because "over my dead body" is how I feel about D at this time even though I live daily with the pain of a distant physical relationship. Choc, you are a good man and you deserve a good life. You will do the right thing.

Karen

Trying,

Yes, I still work out there regularly, although I haven't run into him there for since a week ago Saturday, when I shouted his name upon entering, and made him turn white. LOL

She was angry about the exposure, when she said she was "willing to talk -- no lies" this week. She has never told the truth yet (and is still lying to her family), and I've learned to judge her ONLY by her actions, not her words.

Thanks for the words of encouragement!

Choc.

Thanks, Karen. And unfortunately, my FICO score has already been damaged.

I rest on 1Cor. 10:13 and on other verses that promise that God doesn't give us anything that we can't handle,

chocolateeyes. BB and I want to the church "Marriage Enrichment" (ME) pastor.

The thing that helped me the most was one of his 10 common sense thoughts. That advice was to become thick skined and not to let what the spouse says or feelings to get to you.

I used to believe in "God doesn't give us anything that we can't handle" I/we will get through this mess, but look at it differently now. I look at some things as "who said that is the way it is. I will keep my thoughts about do we "get through it" to myself for now.

Some people gain strength believing in "God doesn't give us anything that we can't handle." I have had more success with the get thicker skin approach, combined with thinking, "yes, this sucks but this is what I am presented/given to work out.

The lay "ME" pastor is big on responsibility and advocates dropping almost all of the feelings. I see a correlation between getting a thick skin (drop the feelings) and doing the right thing (being strong), being the family leader.

From the ME book:

Affairs = "a romantic or passionate attachment typically of limited duration"

I Affairs are not new! (2 examples from the O.T. - one good; one bad)
A. Joseph & Potiphar's wife. (Gen. 39:1-18)
B. David & Bathsheba. (2 Sam. 11:1-27)

II. Why does a person break their marriage vows and engage in an affair?
A. Sex? - Nope
B. Love? - Nada
C. Narcissism? - Rarely
D. Anger toward their spouse? - Occasionally
E. Unhappiness with one's life? - Usually

III. How do affairs begin?
A. The 14 Steps of Unfaithfulness

1. Sharing common interests
2. Comparing with your mate
3. Meeting emotional needs
4. Tinges of dishonesty
5. Flirting and teasing
6. Personal talk
7. Touching
8. Special notes/gifts
9. Inventing excuses to Call
10. Secret meetings
11. Cover ups and deceit
12. Kissing
13. Petting
14. Intercourse

IV Can A Marriage be Saved After an Affair? Yes, emphatically, yes!!!

(Mrs. Choc)
A. The 8 Steps Out of an Affair

1. Understand the consequences (Prov. 5:1-14)

2. Confess your sin to God (Psalm 32:1-7)

3. Confess your sin to your spouse (James 5:16)

4. Involve a Godly counselor and become accountable (Prov. 12:15)

5. Starve the source [no contact of any kind with the third party] (1 Cor. 6:16-18 6.

6. Determine to become a disciplined follower of Christ (2 Cor. 5:9)

7. Win back your spouse (make large deposits and few withdrawals) (Eph. 5:22-33)

8. Think Godly thoughts (Phil. 4:8) V.

(Mr. Choc)
What Should the Offended Spouse do?

A. Forgive (Mark 11:25-26)

B. Determine if you will stay married. If yes, then continue with the following steps; staying married so that you can torture your spouse is not a Biblical option. (Matt. 19:1-12) - see attached commentary

C. Don't take it personally!!! This affair is not about you or your shortcomings. Our faults are never an acceptable reason for another to sin. (James 1:13-16 & 1 Cor. 10:13)

D. Draw near to Christ (James 4:7-8)

E. With your spouse seek Godly counsel and leadership (Heb. 13:17) F. Put the pain in the proper perspective (Phil. 3:8) G Re careful with your words (Matt. 12:36-37)

{God uses time to heal even the deepest hurts.

Choc, I am not advocating you do any of the above things based on my religious views or beliefs. You have most of the above already. I am posting some ideas that might help you in some areas and to support you.

Lou

Lou
What do you do if your spouse says the A is over and it was nothing? You have no proof that it is still going on unless you snoop and he says thats breaking HIS privacy and trust in YOU?

Sorry to hijack your thread choc. I guess I just feel really unsure of whether I'm doing the right thing right now.

I think you're really brave to confront your W and agree with pretty much everything you'e done so far.

Thing is I had made my mind up as you may remember that I was not prepared to live without afection any longer. Now my H has been way more loving overcome his ED problems and I had felt he was reconnecting and happier with our lives.

I was still pretty sure he was still in contact with EA/PA OW because he still never left his mobile around.

Just recently past few weeks he'd changed and really seemed different much more at ease and was leaving the phone on charge.

I hadn't snooped for months and was up early and he'd kept a text from her that reads as follows...

If a msg is sent from a distance u can't feel the wishes u can't see the smile but u can sense the care that comes from the heart. Hope U R feeling better now no more pain tender kisses xxx

this was dated 16th Feb some weeks befor I felt we were connecting more and prior to ML again.

Now I have no fear of ending the marriage if he withdraws affection again but now I really don't know whether I'm kidding myself on here and I KNOW my H will consider ME the one breaking the trust by reading his personal messages. He will come out with it was just a kind message from a friend and a bit flowery not romantic.

Sorry but I am just really upset that he really seemed to have changed and now I just wonder if he's got better at showing me afection because he doesn't want to lose me but keep his romantic love as well.
NOP advice helpful

hi, shmagic.

You should start your own thread.

One comment. There is no place for secrets in a marriage. There is a place for privacy, but most people misunderstand the difference, so I offer my simple example; Privacy is a fart in the bathroom.

I will be glad to discuss at length any of my opinions, but we should do it on your thread.

-NOPkins-

shmagic, here is a link to a website that has a nice definition of secrets and privacy.

Excerpt:

The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.

-NOPkins-

NOP writes:

Quote:

I do agree with you mostly, but I believe that there is a right approach, just that it is different with each situation.

This is the key...each approach fits different situations. I would not recommend this approach for EVERYONE on the BB or on the DB path. One has to take the context of one's marriage and the spouse's personality type. For one, it may be enough to use a garden hose and others need a full blast of a fireman's hose to get the message across. Given Choc's history and his wife's "refusal" to be an intimate partner, I believe this exposure approach is the correct one. However, there is a fine line here---being firm about this and really pushing one over the edge. Just my personal opinion.

You said "lighten up"---which do you prefer: chocolate mousse or laughing gas?!

Choc,

Your wife's reaction is the typical scenario of a person who is heavily involved in the first bloom of an affair. Unfortunately, there's more of that coming down the road before it shifts into different direction(s). She's pissed that she's busted by you and others on what she's been up to lately. At this point, she wants to go underground so she can continue the secrective contact with the OM. This isn't too surprising. Eventually, something will give---the secrecy and covering one's tracks will become too exhausting and the OM will eventually push Mrs. Choc to make a "decision" about the marriage. Which will play out in your favor...she will waffle and vacillate between you and the OM. So, continue being the best option to the OM!

Shmagic Lou
What do you do if your spouse says the A is over and it was nothing?

Shmagic, I am learning this A stuff and it is all relatively new to me so rate me big on listening, learning, sharing what I learn when I think it will help, but short on the ability to give good advice on my own.

I will suggest one of the links I poster on Heywyre thread, #1082109 - Yesterday at 11:02 AM,
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1075036&page=1&fpart=2

NOP has offered lots of good advice.

Lou

Quote:

Eventually, something will give---the secrecy and covering one's tracks will become too exhausting and the OM will eventually push Mrs. Choc to make a "decision" about the marriage. Which will play out in your favor...she will waffle and vacillate between you and the OM.

Well, in defense of MrsChoc (I guess), maybe she is not waffling between MEN at all. Maybe she is just tired of the life she has been leading and wants to be more independent. I mean, does she really think dating this 10 year younger guy is THE issue? I doubt it. If she has some insight, she'll realize it is not about men at all, but about being Herself. Sure, she is using the younger man to give her the "push" but I still say there is more going on here than just getting her off the "affair high." Yes, that needs to be dealt with but that is probably not going to fix the problems.
Choco, I don't have words of advice. Just hoping that you are going down the right path. You are doing an amazing job so far and no matter what happens, it seems as though you are going to come out of this whole thing just fine.
LFL

LFL I heard something similar to [b Maybe she is just tired of the life she has been leading and wants to be more independent.[/b] many times, especially from 50+ women who are widows. I heard it from 40ish women when I was going to college.

Lou

I hear ya Lou, especially with the high D rate as it is, and continued feminist beliefs that women don't really need a man (at least not full-time, lol) to be happy, it's not surprising you see many women just throwing in the towel.
I can see the appeal. A part of me thinks wouldn't it be great to live by myself, do what I want, anytime I want, date anyone I want, and move on when it gets too serious or boring. I'D be in control, which I think a lot of women feel like they aren't. Is it fantasy? Maybe for some. But I know a few women who live like that now and I kind of look a them in awe.
One woman is about 41 years old, no kids, 3 years D. She says she LOVES living alone and making her own decisions. She is currently dating a 23 year old Boy Toy (who I met) and he is walking sex. She says it's great. She figures he'll get bored with her soon and vice versa and she'll just find someone else. She likes them young because they don't have any expectations and she remains in Control. I find it quite fascinating. But again, she doesn't have kids, so I think that is key factor. Frankly, I don't see why people even get M if they don't want kids. But that's for another discussion.
LFL

Lou,

Those are excellent resources and verses -- THANK YOU!!! I pray that it will get to that (the "what do we each need to do to recover" stage), but in the meantime, the Church's teachings on "what constitutes an 'affair'" will help me as well, especially with my in-laws.

I'm not certain, because there have been SO many lies, but I BELIEVE that my W and OM are somewhere Stage 12-13. However, she has at LEAST clearly THOUGHT about 14, possibly even PLANNED for it, and it may have ONLY been the fact that OM lives at home with his parents that has prevented it so far, who knows.

It really doesn't even matter at this point. For a woman to open her heart anywhere beyond Stage 5 or so, is well into an EA and on its way to a full-blown PA.

And I DO need to be more "thick-skinned," definitely!!!

Choc.

LfL,

There are definitely multiple issues here, mostly entertwined. The whole obsession with youth/beauty/ and need for validation, for example. If it was not this guy, it would have been another guy, and I know she had her eye on one before this guy.

As I've stated before, she needs to find where she can live, and enjoy her newfound career and independence and just plain being _____ (her first name), and not just "Mrs. Chocolateeyes" and "Mother of Chocolateeyes' Kids," and she needs to find out if she can find that within our marriage, instead of looking inappropriately for it OUTSIDE of our marriage.

And then there are all of our marital issues, which is really mostly just ONE issue that we've never been able to get past: how to be intimate with each other, and to handle it as an Issue when it rears its head and makes one or both of us unhappy.

But first we have to stop the ooey-gooey chemicals from rushing around her head, because they are making her compound the problem with more bad choices on her part. As Nick Nolte said in North Dallas Forty , "It's time to put away childish things," and to begin working at the marriage and the underlying issues.

Choc.

Quote:

she needs to find where she can live, and enjoy her newfound career and independence and just plain being _____ (her first name), and not just "Mrs. Chocolateeyes" and "Mother of Chocolateeyes' Kids," and she needs to find out if she can find that within our marriage, instead of looking inappropriately for it OUTSIDE of our marriage.

Yes, I totally agree. H and I have had this conversation many times. It is critical. But maybe your W hasn't gotten to the point of really reflecting on that yet as an option. She's still in escape/affair mode.
Give it time.
LFL

Yep.

Originally Posted By: choc

As Nick Nolte said in North Dallas Forty , "It's time to put away childish things"

I hear St. Paul really loved that movie.

$;\)$

"and it may have ONLY been the fact that OM lives at home with his parents"

OMG, I'm sorry, but I laughed out loud at this.

Truly, how incredibly ridiculous this connection is between W and OM.

Yes, ain't it? It was all I could do to bite my lip when my wife, screaming at me after OM's parents got their exposure letter from me, said "How DARE you send that to his PARENTS!! He is NOT a child!!!"

(pregnant pause . . . Choc. thinks, then thinks again . . . nah -- better let it go!!)

LMAO.

Choc quoted: ""How DARE you send that to his PARENTS!! He is NOT a child!!!""

Ah, another Cabbage Patch birth.

-NOPkins-

Oh my word. I was taking a drink of my juice and read, living at home with his parents. I to LMAO!! Boy oh boy is she in for a rude awakening. She is just not in her right mind right now.

Wow Choc you sent a letter to his parents? How about her parents how are they taking it? I can imagine she is infuriated right now. I am just thinking, but do you think maybe this will just push her away more? She went from unsure about things to anger. This may cause hatred toward you. Like I am so embarrassed it is all out in the open I could never face his family or anyone again. I mean her family will always love her along with her children. It would be easier now to put you out of the picture. I'm not trying to discourage you. Just thinking out loud to what I may feel if my husband told everyone.

Quote:

How about her parents how are they taking it? I can imagine she is infuriated right now. I am just thinking, but do you think maybe this will just push her away more? She went from unsure about things to anger. This may cause hatred toward you. Like I am so embarrassed it is all out in the open I could never face his family or anyone again. I mean her family will always love her along with her children. It would be easier now to put you out of the picture. I'm not trying to discourage you. Just thinking out loud to what I may feel if my husband told everyone.

Here's my viewpoint on this. Most affairees intend to legitimize their relationship with the OP asap.

So, at some point in the future they have every intention of introducing OP to children, family, coworkers, etc. They keep things secret so they can manipulate what they want at the time they want it. They also want to manipulate the situation to make it appear that the OP had absolutely nothing to do with the breakup of the marriage. They keep the affair under wraps, start the process of keeping the BS deceived and they start explaining to family members that the marriage is having problems.

This usually take one of two tacks - it's no one's fault we've just grown apart or s/he is just impossible and I've dealt with him/her as long as I can.

So, the BS can sit back and do nothing proactive while the WS and OP spin their plans, on their own timetable in order to set themselves up in the best possible light - WITH NO REGARD TO THE BS and little or no regard for the children...

OR

Exposure takes the power of your life back. No matter what the squirming and squeeling cries may say, the reality is that the BS did something BEFORE the WS plans could be fully implemented. The parents, children, coworkers are told the UNvarnished, unmanipulated truth.

So, the squeels are all about having their fantasy plans pulled out from the shadows and machinations into the cold, hard light of day open to scrutiny.

The other option is to sit back and allow your life, your future, your children and their future to be permenantly changed while you do nothing because you fear the spouse might be driven away.

Spouses who leave and never come back after the truth has been exposed are spouses who were leaving anyway OR they are spouses who might stay in the marriage while never lifting a finger to recover the marriage.

MrsNOP -

Excellent analogy MrsNop - Let them squeal I say !!

yep. or you could say, he pre-emptively branded them with a scarlet "A".

Hi Mrs.NOP,

Your views are equally legitimate with others posted here. I am in fact intrigued by your comments. I will be very honest here and say this outloud: This is the first time I've ever seen a post where the LBS implements the exposure plan here on the DB BB. I am very curious if this will be successful in Choc's case and how this plays out in the field of potentiality.

I've read other BB's where exposure is strongly recommended and I've read threads where the LBS struggles to keep the marriage/family together after the exposure. Unfortunately for this BB, I do not see any success stories posted in a specific forum format like this DB is designed so I have no way of knowing of their success rate with the affair exposure method.

LFL:

I believe you might have misconstrued my earlier post about Mrs. Choc waffling and vacillating. Let me be clear...right now, Mrs. Choc is firmly in the OM's clutches and there is no waffling between OM and Choc at this point. However, down the road...when things start to shift...is when Mrs. Choc will begin to vacillating between the OM and Choc. That is a key point in the fork in which, most often, the WAS will go through the painstaking process of cutting ties with the OM and eventually returning to the LBS. From my friends over in Piecing, the most common thread is that these WASes have found the LBS as the stronger and better option than the OP. It just takes time for the perceptions to shift in the LBS's direction---the dopamine fix will eventually wear off and the WAS will see the OP's true colors.

When I hear the words here on DB or in real life, "I need space"--that is code word for "I want to fcuk the OP and run away with the OP!" Choc...be on the alert for these dead weight words.

Originally Posted By: Wonka

When I hear the words here on DB or in real life, "I need space"--that is code word for "I want to fcuk the OP and run away with the OP!" Choc...be on the alert for these dead weight words.

My reaction to the "I need space" talk is that
the person needing space should feel like an astronaut.

Sorry if I am repeating myself here.

Choc you have balls I can tell from here and
whatever happens you can handle it

Choco,

Good to see you were just blowing off steam in that past post. Part of the process. But I wanted to give you a don't give up pep talk in my previous post JIC to hedge as you can't be totally sure where someone is emotionally. I think that's what blackfoot, fearless, OT, LFL, Karen et all intended as well.

I've kinda been commenting here because I've experienced nearly every side of this process (except Mrs. Choc's side of course) and thought maybe you could use the perspective. Plus, I appreciate your faith and family values.

Your comment about OM living with his parents, while darkly humorous in a sad sort of way, pretty much cinches it for me as to how Mrs. Choc has been duped. A wolf can sniff out a wolf, so to speak, and I am going to go out on a limb and say this is just a trophy for OM. How this relates to my experiences is thus, and why I've been watching your sitch.

In my 20s I befriended an older M F in her 30s. No kids but a blonde little hard body with 6-pack abs. I was unattached but not looking for M Fs that's for sure. I truly just enjoyed her energy, personality, and company.

Her H, naturally, was/is a very successful sales guy. Well, since I felt pretty much unrestrained in terms of my appropriate interactions with her, I failed to see that my leading, joking, and unpredictability as to what would come out of my mouth next was building attraction. Only later did I go back and see the signs.

I was a person she enjoyed being around. Was I triggering dopamine? She did laugh a lot.

She rarely spoke of her H. One day I was chatting in her office and a large bouquet arrived on her desk. An F co-worker asked her who it was from.

"Oh, a very nice guy." Said with some reserve.

Ah, the dreaded NG word combo special. Always peppered about in my youth on my various friends and even myself and I embraced them like a cute little lamb to slaughter. I am?! Thanks! Ooo, guys, I am sooo IN with her. *guffaw*

(Note to the dating Ms. Hence, I now convey to Fs IRL that I am a very nice person but I am definitely NOT a nice guy. Helps. And clears things up nicely.)

"A very nice guy," she said. I didn't even see it. Didn't even say his name in front of me. Even when I found out that day was her anniversary, which she never mentioned either. She was a friend. I had no intention of escalation, even if most guys would have been far too tempted.

I remember the day it hit me. We were having lunch and chatting when I felt the ball of her foot in her open sandals rest against my calf and stay there. She had her legs crossed. WTF? I felt my face start to flush. Instead of pulling away I wanted to be sure. And she just kept it firm against my calf. Her co-workers were at different tables and might catch a glimpse if they really looked.

And after that I became suddenly aware of subsequent openings she would leve for me.

So why didn't I turn into your OM? Respect. Not conquest. Believe me, I've been no saint in my past behaviors but I knew where to draw the line thanks to a very strict boundary-filled upbringing, among other things, such as a sense of guilt and self-worth issues.

I ultimately did not escalate. Why? Not out of respect for myself (though perhaps in small part). Not out of respect for her H ( I was too young to appreciate LTRs). No, respect for her. I did not want her to be shamed by her co-workers as a cheating W. I valued her too much as a friend not to see her make a big mistake with a young lad like me who had no intention of being tied down.

So I think what if I were infatuated with her and went for it anyway? And if, instead of preferably being in her 30s and ideally having no kids now the added hassle of her being in her 40s with 4 grown kids? Tooling me around in a BMW? Nice living (thanks to you)? Then that more undesirable LTR option might prove that I had no respect for her long term and was only out for myself and the trophy of a MILF.

And if I were lame like the OM and her H turned up the heat on our tryst? I think that would blow me out. Hyenas are opportunists. And Oms are like hyenas. They will commit themselves to the carcass of the carrion the lion has killed as long as they can. But if the lion should come back for more meat and the hyenas don't have numbers?

They will yap yap yap away with tails tucked to their bellies but will scamper off in search of another opportunity.

You came back roaring over Mrs. Choc. Like the lion, if nothing else, you have earned some respect from all involved.

Time will tell how she feels about being exposed. I won't blow snoke up your pipe and say it'll all work out.

time will tell if you can process the anger that will bubble up in you over her infidelity. I won't assure you it won't take years of hard work, prayer, and counsel.

Time will tell how hard Om is willing to fight for Mrs. Choc. To me, is living arrangement and lower income are not going to be able to keep Mrs. Choc happy for long.

And that's partially why I'm pegging your OM as having no intention for an LTr with Mrs. Choc. and I feel sad that she probably doesn't realize it. If he loved her and wanted her for an LTR he would have high respect for her reputation at the gym, which is where I went with my F friend.

I methodically killed her attraction for me as soon as I found out her interest. One test I remember was that I started addressing her by Mrs. (H's last name) to others and to her directly. The first time I did the latter she gasped as in, "I can't believe you just said that."

And that gave me more proof of her interest.

This is a real sticking point with me as I don't yet know the sweet spot in my friendships with Fs that don't lead to attraction on one side or the other. Sometimes when attraction is not apropos for the R, it causes me to go into "Stepford Man" modus and I switch my personality into that resembling the charisma of a wooden indian. I hate that.

"Hi, pleasure to meet you. Nice weather huh? Fantastic. Boy, this is a nice vintage, isn't it? Mmm, boy my mother sure would like flowers like these."

LOL.

Anyway, Choc. I guess the point is that I'm sniffing this guy out as an opportunist who likes riding around in a BMW with a MILF so he can impress his little circle of gym friends. Not because he loves her for who she is, a mother, nice person, and future LTR potential. If he did he would not want her to ruin her self-respect and professional reputation. And I seriously doubt a guy living with his parents sees himself in his lame-brain as the stepfather to 4 kids, including two college-aged girls etc.

My guess is she is eventually going to find this out and beat herself up for risking everything on attraction.

But that's my opinion. Of course, I could always be wrong.

-Stigmata-

Wonka,

She has repeatedly asked for "space" since Day 1 of my confrontation of her. I have steadfastly refused, saying "No one ever fixed their marriage from across town," to "I'm not leaving my own house," to "you need to find a way to create space and independence WITHIN your marriage and your family, instead of inappropriately OUTSIDE of it."

If she wants "space," she can leave me and live with her parents or live with OM and his parents. Giving her TOO MUCH space is what led to our problems, and I'm not about to make that mistake again.

But boy oh boy, does she hate me today.

Choc.

Thanks, Martelo. They're a little blue these days, but it's good to have 'em back again.

Choc.

Tryingtohold on,

Her parents are devastated. Devasted and embarrassed and angry, and it's been humiliating for my wife that they know. It was the single hardest decision I've ever had to make in my life so far to tell them, but honesty has been in too short supply around here and MrsNOP's analysis/timeline pretty much sums up where my wife and OM were at. Sleeping with him was IMMINENT (she was PLANNING on HOW TO DO IT WELL, for goshsakes, on the computer!), so what did I really have to lose?

I will not go quietly.

Her parents asked her yesterday to come over and talk to them about it, and she's been avoiding them for two days. When she finally does get up the nerve to go over there, they're going to give it to her with both barrels. I have preempted her, admitting my faults and my contributions to the affectionless state of our marriage. But I have absolutely NOT taken the blame for her decision to have an affair, nor will I.

She made this mess; she needs to clean it up. I'll be here ready to forgive and join her in the hard work ahead, but she needs to clean up the mess first.

Choc.

Choc,

I have just been catching up on your thread. I am so sorry that you are having to go through this - it is painful and I do know how painful. But it sounds to me like you are keeping strong, and I'm so glad that you are getting good support both here and elsewhere. You know whatever the outcome that you are doing the right thing and that will be clear in the end. I pray Mrs Choc will see sense, but it will no doubt take time. I like your analogy of the addict - it makes sense.

Just wanted to check in and give you a pat on the back and let you know you are in my thoughts.

Fran

I don't post here much, but I want to say you are doing the right thing here...stand up for yourself. I made the fatal mistake with ex-bf of acting like nothing, hoping all would be OK in the end if I just acted as if, and that did not work. He walked and that was that. He for sure got the easy way out. If she is going to leave, she would have done it anyway, irregardless of how you handled it. But you are right, the "ooey" feelings in her head won't last forever...she is in la-la land right now. As we all know, those feelings are great, but once you are in relationship, if you can't count on true companionship, loyalty, and truly "like" someone, it never lasts. The financial end of it will be a *real* eye-opener. This sitch is just not even realistic...the age difference and him living at home? Personally, I wouldn't give this guy a second glance...she will come to terms with this eventually. Good luck and hang in there...

Thanks, Fran -- that means the world to me. One in my position NEVER tires of hearing "you are doing the right thing"!!!

Choc.

Thanks, Moretocome. I couldn't agree with you more. OM is not the issue, but he IS the immediate obstacle to her working at this, and he IS the opportunity for me to grow as a man and to stand up for my marriage and my family the way I should have all along.

In a sick, weird way, he is helping me.

Choc.

Choc, just checking in with three more cheers for you-

\o/\o/\o/

-and raising a pom pom of encouragement as your parade goes by.

I am so impressed with your heart and your actions. Stay strong, friend.

I'm trying, Isiah. I'm trying. It's getting harder tho every day, as she is just BITTERLY cold, and barely speaking to me. Who is this alien, who has invaded my wife's body, and when can I get her back??

I know she's angry with me, but this is so much more than that. It's like she is an entirely different person, and it's not only making me very sad, it's scaring the bejeezus out of me.

Choc.

Choc,

The woman you fell in love with and still love is in there, searching for a way to come out. But it is hard, the strong feelings (no matter how contrived or rationalized), the biochemicals raging through her, the layers and layers of built up resentment and entitlement, what she sees as unfair attacks by you. Frankly, in her state of mind, going with OM is the easy way out of a difficult situation. To get back with you will require lots of hard R work. To go with OM seems easy, and has the added benefit of juicing her with lots of escape fantasy chemicals.

I think you are doing what you can to make her realize that the OM route is NOT the easy one. I hope she makes the right choice.

A physical trainer still living with his parents eh? Wow. Man, if there ever was a poster-boy for how powerful those A chemicals are, this has to be it.

Chrome

"...she is just BITTERLY cold, and barely speaking to me. Who is this alien, who has invaded my wife's body, and when can I get her back??"

That's the princess. (btdt)

Princesses are used to having everything they want given to them.

So the thought of having to give something up infuriates.

They don't like deciding.

They don't like either-or.

They like both.

They want both.

There is a burning seed in her reminding her actions are wrong. And that self-directed anger needs to vent. Gets too overwhelming.

You're her most available and convenient outlet.

It ain't you.

Lash yourself to the mast. Don't listen to her shrieking.

It will fade.

-Stigmata-

That's the princess. (btdt)

Princesses are used to having everything they want given to them.

So the thought of having to give something up infuriates.

They don't like deciding.

They don't like either-or.

They like both.

They want both.

There is a burning seed in her reminding her actions are wrong. And that self-directed anger needs to vent. Gets too overwhelming.

You're her most available and convenient outlet.

It ain't you.

Lash yourself to the mast. Don't listen to her shrieking.

It will fade.

-Stigmata-

Thanks Stig. Those lines sound like someone else I know.

Get tough skinned.

Lou

Quote:

A physical trainer still living with his parents eh? Wow. Man, if there ever was a poster-boy for how powerful those A chemicals are, this has to be it.

You should see his P.O.S. 10-year old pickup truck, replete with faded-out paint and busted-off side mirror. $\:\/$

Quote:

You should see his P.O.S. 10-year old pickup truck, replete with faded-out paint and busted-off side mirror.

Well it was my turn to spew coke on the computer screen. I have a P.O.S 10-year old pickup truck, with faded paint and busted-off side mirror (and cracked windshield, and busted up tailgate). I use it to haul things for everyone around here who doesn't want to haul things in their nice cars LOL ... and that's what I drive to work and back.

Man, had the someone walking over my grave feeling for a moment there ... except I'm not a PT, haven't ever been in one of those membership gyms (just use the campus facilities), and don't know any guys with chocolate eyes that hate my guts. You don't hate my guts ... do you Choc ... Choc?

Chrome

Oh, and I'm definitely not short, and wouldn't live with my parents if someone paid me $100K a year to do so.

Chrome

Stig,

That's awesome advice, and that's precisely what I'm doing, with NOP's help. I have my moments of doubt and weakness, but they are always with him (and with all of you), and I have displayed NOTHING but steely and loving resolve with my wife.

"Princess" -- that's damned accurate.

At the task,

Choc.

Chrome,

You're too danged funny, man. First, LustForLife is Mrs. Choc., and now you are OM. This place gets pretty creepy sometimes, don't it?

Choc.

Hmmmmm...

...good one, Choco. $;\)$

LFL

Choc,

Quote:

and now you are OM

Nah, I have a feeling if I knew you Choc, we'd be too good of friends for me to ever have become an OM to your W.

In fact, I'd probably be the friend that wanted to kick OM's butt for yah. Although, truth be told, as you all know I was an OM at one time, and it is not a fun place to be. I don't know what kind of person your OM is Choc, but if he has a shred of decency inside him, he is hurting somewhere in there too. I would pity him in that case. Now if he was a blackfoot kind of OM, that's a different story.

Keep the faith Choc

Chrome

She must really be over-the-edge. I can't imagine dating a guy who still lives with his parents. Of course, there would be some advantages to dating a PT, at least temporarily. Like I could figure out why I can't chest pop like my 10 year old niece.

He's a Pimple.

You're lost little girl
You're lost little girl
You're lost
Tell me who
Are you?

I think that you know what to do
Impossible? Yes, but it's true
I think that you know what to do, yeah
I'm sure that you know what to do

You're lost little girl
You're lost little girl
You're lost
Tell me who
Are you?

I think that you know what to do
Impossible? Yes, but it's true
I think that you know what to do, girl
I'm sure that you know what to do

You're lost little girl
You're lost little girl
You're lost

Swollen and full of pus or a black bacteria-filled pit?

Chrome ... who is now thinking about his trip to the Mutter Museum in Philly ... shudder

Doesn't matter what he's like Choc, he's paying HER some much needed attention and that's what's getting the chemicals going. She cannot see him for what he is, all he is doing is reflecting back to her how great she is at a time in her life, when for whatever reason, she needs to hear that.

"Mirror, mirror on the wall who's the fairest of them all"

"You are" he answers back. Who gives a stuff what the actual mirror looked like.

Fran

"Angry All The Time"

Here we are
What is left of a husband and a wife four good kids
Who have a way of gettin on with their lives
I'm not old but I'm getting a whole lot older every day
It's too late to keep from goin' crazy
I got to get away

The reasons that I can't stay don't have a thing to do with being in love
And I understand that lovin a man shouldn't have to be this rough
You ain't the only one Who feels like this world left you far behind
I don't know why you gotta be Angry All The Time

Our boys are strong the spittin image of you when you were young
I hope someday they can see past what you have become
I remember every time I said I'd never leave
What I can't live with is memories of the way you used to be

The reasons that I can't stay don't have a thing to do with being in love
And I understand that lovin a man shouldn't have to be this rough
You ain't the only one Who feels like this world left you far behind
I don't know why you gotta be Angry All The Time

Twenty years have came and went since I walked out of your door
I never quite made it back to the one I was before
And God it hurts me to think of you
For the light in your eyes was gone
Sometimes I don't know why this old world can't leave well enough alone

The reasons that I can't stay don't have a thing to do with being in love
And I understand that lovin a man shouldn't have to be this rough
You ain't the only one Who feels like this world left you far behind
I don't know why you gotta be Angry All The Time

"If you go out to race and know you'll lose, there's no probability involved. You'll lose. But if you go out knowing you'll never give up, you'll still lose most of the time, but you'll be in the best position to kick on that rare day when everything breaks right."

Bill Bowerman University of Oregon Track Coach

I just read these words in an old Runner's World yesterday and found them realistically inspirational to me.

Choc, there is no guarantee what will happen with you and your wife but you have to believe you won't give up on your end and you will be prepared if/when she has a hesitation, change of heart, etc.

Good Luck

"I'm not holding my breath."

-- Anonymous

Chocolateeyes, I hope you are breathing today.

Still thinking about your situation and sending my best wishes your way.

Lou

Thanks, Lou. It's been a helluva ride, I'll tell you that, and the most intense weekend of my life.

I'll try to get an update posted later today. There are some strong signs of progress, after facing the abyss this weekend.

Choc.

Just stay in the game, Choc!!! I truly believe she'll come around. If my H did, anyone can and all I did was NEVER GAVE UP. Stay the course, you'll be awesome, especially w/ NOP on your side!!!

I am SO happy to hear there may be some progress. Can't wait to hear the update.

Choc you are doing great! I can't say it enough that your demeanor even on here has changed so much. Your take charge attitude is very very attractive!

Here's the latest:

Thank you for all for your continued concern about my sitch. I have just had SO much coming at me over the past 30 days, that I needed to regroup a little and search my heart, in prayer, for:

a) what God was trying to tell me; and

b) what it is I wanted -- specifically, did I WANT to even be married to Mrs. Choc. anymore.

After staring down the barrel of divorce over the past 24 hours (who knew it was a $2,500 retainer, just to get started???), and after much anguish, soul-searching and talking with my wife, here is where we are:

1. We want to work at this, and are committed to doing so.

2. My wife is seeking out a counsellor, on her own, to hopefully help her with some of her issues.

3. She cut off the romantic part of her relationship (which she still insists was far less than I think it was) sometime in the past two weeks, but wasn't going to give me the satisfaction of knowing that, as she was pissed with me for confronting and exposing her.

4. Although she told the OM that it was over appr. 2 weeks ago, she said to me on Sunday that "I need to have another conversation with him so that he's clear, because I still don't think he understands" that she can no longer train with him, nor communicate with him. She did say that she will not quit her job, and she will SEE him sometimes at the gym, as their shifts coincide a couple of days each week, but she will no longer train with him, despite the fact that he's been a big help to getting her in shape, and will no longer communicate with him outside of work (cellphone, home phone, text messages). I know this falls short of "ABSOLUTELY ZERO CONTACT" that I'm shooting for, but it is what it is, it's a huge step over where she was, and I also think he'll react poorly to it and his "true colors" will show very soon anyway.

(UPDATE: just checked her cellphone, and OM left a v-mail message that indicates he is, indeed, reacting poorly to this)

5. We are fully reevaluating our finances, and EVERYTHING is on the table, and we are going to go on a BUDGET. She agreed to a less expensive car, and we agreed to try to sell our house if we can find something smaller and more affordable that's suitable. She agreed to work more hours. We agreed to DE-CLUTTER the house, and get rid of a lot of the krap.

6. As part of this long talk last nite, I laid out for her in the strongest terms I ever have in 20 years, the intense pain and overall unacceptability of continuing to live in an affectionless, sexless marriage. She asked me if I wanted a divorce, and I said "want?" "No, I wouldn't say 'want,' and I think my actions -- even if you've disagreed with some of them -- over the past month DEMONSTRATES that I don't 'want' to end our marriage. But what I am saying this weekend is, Mrs. Choc., that I WILL no longer live in a marriage where you make so little effort to meet my needs." I told her that she had given me a list of things she wanted ME to work on, 3 years ago, and I pointed out to her where I had worked on each and every one of them. Not perfectly, but with genuine effort, and with quite a bit of progress, too. I then reminded her of my 'LIST OF ONE', and asked her how I was supposed to interpret her TOTAL LACK OF EFFORT at meeting it, despite my having told her clearly a dozen times in 20 years, including "letting you see my intense, deep pain on this very bed 5 years ago." "How am I supposed to interpret that, Mrs. Choc., OTHER than assuming you don't want to be married anymore?" She got VERY quiet, listened to everything I was saying (this went on a good 20 minutes, just on this one subject), and then finally said quietly "I didn't think you wanted me anymore." I got angry, and said "What??! How many times, despite all of your rejection, did I tell you how pretty you were, how fit and sexy you were, etc.?" And she just said quietly "I just thought you were being nice." I told her that her behavior was "BULLCHIT", and that "you want to be chased, but you do not want to be caught. You want to be sex-Y, but you don't want to have to have actual SEX with me." and "even the dogs at the dogtrack, they let catch those little wooden bunnies every now and again, or they will stop chasing," and I told her that, yes, 5 years ago, I stopped chasing. I asked her how in the world she thought any reasonable man would do anything OTHER than stop initiating, after not only getting rejected for sex, but "I even have to damned near TRIP you in the kitchen or the hallway, just to get a hug or a kiss from you." She said "I'm sorry that I do that."

I asked her what emotional needs of hers that I was not meeting. It was mainly "quality time" and she complained that I spent so much time volunteering with baseball, and on my computer when I'm home, that I had been so "distant" with her. I told her that I could easily work on that, and that I had ONLY done that in the past 3 years or so, as GAL stuff, in response to her repeated rejections. She seemed to understand.

She also said her oft-repeated "I can't do 'this' anymore, which I pressed her on. "You keep saying that, Mrs. Choc. -- what, exactly, do you mean by 'this'?" She would say "WHAT IF IT DOESN'T WORK, AND WE'RE BACK IN THIS PLACE AGAIN??" I told her that "As near as I can tell, the only 'this' that there is, and what makes you so unhappy and so uncomfortable, is the extent to which I bring up MY unhappiness in our marriage once every 3 years."

I let that sink in for awhile, and said "Because we really don't have ANY other serious problems. You just seem to freak out and can't deal with the fact that I have some unmet needs, and that I insist that you try to meet them." She largely agreed, and throughout this WHOLE monthlong ordeal, she has NEVER been able to adequately articulate to me just what it is that I'm doing "wrong", other than "we're just so distant", and "damage has been done," and "we live like brother and sister," etc. I angrily told her "Well, that's YOUR issue, not mine, as you have made it painfully clear that you wanted to live that way," but then I backed off.

Finally, I asked her why she was having this 2nd talk with OM, and telling him that she couldn't train with him anymore, and couldn't communicate with him outside of work. She said "What do you mean?" I said, "Why are you doing that?" She seemed perplexed, and said "Isn't that what you want?" And I said "Yes, but I want to know why you think you need to do that." And she said "Because it's important to you, and I need to work at our marriage."

(UPDATE: that voicemail message from OM would seem to indicate that she responded to pressure from both me AND him in this regard, and he was getting angry about her pulling away from him, and reacting badly.)

To which I said "Thank you. That's all I've been asking for."

She had to go, as her parents are coming over (they are fence-mending today as well), but said "Choc., whatever happens between us, I need to base it on what Mrs. Choc. needs, not on some guy. I realized that I needed to end it with him so that I could make clear decisions." I validated the wisdom of that conclusion, and told her "I felt strongly that you needed to make clear decisions, and that romantic feelings put people in a 'fog', and that they put the other spouse also in a 'fog', and that we both needed the clarity of decision-making right now, and needed to to work at our marriage 'free of the fog.'" She didn't necessarily agree that she has been in a "fog," but I didn't really expect her to.

I reaize that this falls short of the "ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT" that NOP and I are working for, and I'm frustrated that it's not a 100% clean break. But I think I can work from this. This is huge, huge, HUGE for this stubborn Italian woman that is the enigma known as "Mrs. Chocolateeyes". Sometimes I think you have to look back at what you DID win, and not just forward at what you have LEFT to win, and what has happened in just the past 30 days is:

1. I have confronted her, after 5 years of passivity on my part(the attempt 3 years ago was pretty hackneyed), and have told her that "I will no longer live in a sexless, affectionless marriage."

2. I have confronted her on an inappropriate relationship, an affair, with another man, and I have never wavered in my insistence of "This is disprespectful of me, it is disrespectful of our marriage, and it is disrespectful of our family, and it needs to stop -- NOW." And she has stopped it (which I will verify).

3. I have shown her my willingness to expose that to those that she cares about the most, and to generally do "whatever it takes" when it comes to our marriage and our family. I may have wavered in my emotionalism with her twice in the 30 days, but ONLY twice, and I have NEVER wavered in either speech or actions in this matter.

4. I have shown her that while I do not WANT divorce, it is an option for me if she tries to "cake-eat" again, and place anyone before her husband.

5. I have shown her, with ony a few fall-of-the-wagon angry/hurtful moments, an ability to love and forgive, WHILE NOT WAVERING IN MY INSISTENCE, and to show genuine care for her.

6. I have shown her that I am willing to "call her on her B.S.," a phrase that I actually used with her last night.

7. I have shown her that I am no longer willing to provide things for her that we cannot afford, and she has agreed to put EVERYTHING on the table, including her beloved Beemer.

8. I have shown her a strong Christian faith and profession, and have prayed with her during this -- something we hadn't done in years.

9. I have insisted that she get counseling this time, and she has agreed and has set up the appointment. I'm hoping that I can help her locate someone with a strong pro-marriage approach, and one consistent with SSM and Harley.

10. I have confessed to her my own faults and sins in this. My pridefulness, my physical and emotional neglect, and my cowardice for not facing our problems more head-on in the past. I did NOT merely beat her over the head with all of her own shortcomings, but I did live up to mine.

11. Finally, I have shown her that I'm willing -- and able -- to let her "wallow in her own chit" if necessary for her to deal with her issues, and to stop RESCUING her all the time from the consequences of her actions.

That's where we are at, guys. A huge, LONG row to hoe ahead of us, but at least now squarely pointed in the right direction, and both determined to work at it TOGETHER.

I will continue to monitor all home phone, cellphone, keylogger and occasional visual surveillance for the next 30 days or so, to verify the "no personal contact" thing. She told me that "you may see just a few calls today and tomorrow as I tell him that I can't train with him anymore," and I told her that that should only take ONE call, and a brief one at that. I could hold super-firm to that, but I do kinda think the little pimple is gonna melt down and go all nasty/needy/grabby with her over this, I really do. hee hee

Her mood last night was totally despondent/depressed, which is script, and thankfully NOP prepared me for that, or I might have freaked out. In fact, there have been a LOT of things that he has prepared me for that would have otherwise knocked me off my Plan, and I am so thankful for the help that he has given me, and the support and encouragement from all of you.

Choc.

Bravo, choc... bravo.

$\:\)$

WOW. Major progress, which I am so happy to see. Chocolateeyes and NOP, this is a major DB case that will go down in my history log and be at the top of the list.

Seeing the progress and the determination will be an inspiration to all who read your complete or condensed version of your sojourn on the forum.

I am impressed with the financial decisions you have made concerning the depreciating assets. If the depreciating assets were decreased, almost eliminated, could you afford to stay in your present home? I was thinking cars lose value while most homes increase in value over a 10 year period.

Chocolateeyes, I am with you on the one phone call to the OM but I suppose Mrs. Choc feels she owes him something. It could be for the work skills she acquired but most like there is more, like any other addiction.

chocolateeyes. I want to see an upper case C at the start of your name by the end of the day. You are the new and improved leader of your family so make the move to "Mr. Chocolateeyes" ASAP. OK?????

Lou

This is fantastic Choc - there is not much else I can say other than what you already know. Yes, it is true, as much as 100% no contact would be nice, for whatever reason they seem to have to wean themselves off the OP. Hang in there - you are doing fabulous!

Choc, you have done AWESOME. You have grown so much, even we can see that.

Sure wish my H had done this a long time ago instead of just allowing himself to get to the D bomb stage w/out even putting any effort into hitting me w/ a 2x4.

It helps though just to read your sitch.

Choc:

Way to get through.

You know... I know you are dealing with lots of stuff right now, so just take this for consideration down the road... but... perhaps, now, Mrs. Choc would go to an MME weekend with you. It would be Quality Time, it would really get you two talking... and that is what she really needs to get back on track with you sexually.

I know you have enough to deal with right now, but like I said, keep it for future consideration.

I have a new found and very serious respect for you, Choc.

Corri

Wow...you have handled this thing BEAUTIFULLY. Hit it right between the eyeballs...and this is the true time when you will know if it will work or not. You had the guts and tenacity to hit it head on...cause it never does when one or the other backs down. Keep it up and I can assure you...deep down, every woman wants a strong man who values his own existence, emotional state, sexualty, and a man who knows what he wants is just a pure turn on...

Choc:

Just a thought. Perhaps the Mrs. could get her cell phone number changed. It is a pain, yes, but another way to block OMs effort to contact her. And if any text messages show up, you'll know that she made first contact.

Corri

Corri, that is exactly what we are doing.

Awesome job, choc! I have clipped and saved your post, so that I can refer back to it if I ever feel like something CAN'T be done.

Best of luck to you in the coming days, weeks, months, years.

Hairdog

Choc big pat on the bac.

Very impressive Choco.
Amazing progress I'd say.
LFL

wow. i am amazed and impressed, and apparently i need to take a number b/c we ALL are.

i covet my H pursuing me with single-minded purpose like you have mrs. choc. well-played and well done.

praying together is a big help, good for you for manning-up as the spiritual head of household.

still cheering you on.

Choc,
Way to go guy!!!!!

I'll second Corri's suggestion to do an ME weekend. It can help with the communication. It's helped here, we still do a weekend a month with other couples.

Scott

Wowzers!!!

Skidplates was no joke. Keep it up Choc.

Excellent work! I think the most important thing to pay attention to in your post is this:

Quote:

"Choc., whatever happens between us, I need to base it on what Mrs. Choc. needs, not on some guy. I realized that I needed to end it with him so that I could make clear decisions."

The thing to bear in mind is that you are "some guy" too. She has probably finally figured out that her sex drive will be non-existent if she doesn't take some personal ownership for it. She may start behaving like Journey did when she first started posting here. Therefore, you need to be prepared to not become defensive if what "she" wants sexually isn't what you've been wanting her to give "you" all these years. (Personally, I bet you would look really cute in the black leather vest and chaps.)

We went to Retrouvaille. They said ME was for people with decent marriages and Retrouvaille was for the more troubled marriages. I whole-heartedly recommend it. We still have troubles but I'd be in me third year of divorce without that weekend.