I hope good ol' CSW won't mind me stealing his moniker, but I needed a new theme for my topic that reflected the strength and determination that I have, instead of the fears.
I've decided that every marriage (every family, really) needs a hero, and -- at least for now -- it's clearly not going to be my wife.
So I guess that leaves me.
Mission accepted.
We met for lunch today, after she first tried to push it off until early next week, because of D18's graduation tomorrow night, and because of everything else we have going on this week. I remained strong, insisted that we meet, saying "I understand, but we need to talk about this, and next week really isn't going to be any better, so let's do this now."
I at first suggested a park or something, as I haven't really had much of an appetite (the truth is, I hadn't eaten ONE THING for two days, but I didn't tell HER that) and I wanted some privacy and some place where we wouldn't be rushed. We went to Olive Garden anyway, and it was nice. Nice to see her, nice to talk, nice to be vulnerable and to face down some of my demons.
Yes, she asked for "space." Took her awhile to get around to it, and she hemmed an hawed, and didn't really have any clue as to who was going to go where, but I listened, and when she was finished I said
"I understand. And trust me, it would be easier for me, too. You haven't been much fun to be around lately either, and it's hard for me to lie next to you at night and not touch you. The distance would be EASIER for me. (pause) But you said we needed to 'work' at this, and try to 'fix' it, and I don't know of anyone who ever fixed their marriage from the other side of town."
She was skeptical, but we kept talking.
She didn't admit to an EA. I came out and asked her, "Is there someone else?" She said no. I said "I'm not just talking phsyically -- I'm not sure if you've ever heard the term 'emotional affair,' but it's easy to cross the line from friends into telling someone things that should only be shared within a marriage." Then I admitted to having one about 15 years ago (I didn't go into any detail), and how at the time it all felt very innocent, and that I loved the flattery, but that 3 months after it ended, I looked back and thought "Man, how inappropriate." I leaned forward, and told her I was only going to say this once, but that I was going to say it nevertheless.
I said "You are a grown woman, and I cannot make your decisions for you, and there's no doubt I'm hurting here. But I WILL fight for you, and for our marriage, and for our family. And I will insist that you be totally honest with me."
She got the message.
We talked for two hours. We shared our mutual disappointment, and shame, that we let it come to this, and tried to figure out WHY, and we didn't come up with much other than "we keep doing this," and general things like "we don't communicate well."
She agreed to MC, which I also told her was non-negotiable. I told her that I thought it was perhaps the biggest single mistake we made last time, and that I made a mistake in not holding her feet to the fire when she backed out of her commitment to go, and that I wouldn't tolerate that this time.
She agreed, and that's HUGE.
We cried a little (I did my best; I'd give myself a B-), even laughed some. It was more honest communication than we had had in three years.
I got her to put the separation thing on hold, at least as "Step 1", and agree to move it to "Step 2," Step 1 being marriage counselling.
I told her that I made a mistake in not conveying to her the seriousness of my pain of her rejection and lack of affection. I told her that I "told" her, and many times even, but that I have felt that I made a mistake in not grabbing her by the lapels, looking deep into her eyes, and saying "You don't get it. This hurts me. This isn't acceptable. I can't go on like this, and you need to tell me how I can help you reach some compromise on this so that I can have my needs met."
She seemed sad, and apologized for the pain she had caused me.
We wondered what we should tell our kids, and should we tell our families anything. We agreed that we will tell D20 and D18, not by calling some "family meeting" that will freak them out, but by bringing it up in context. (Ex: "What's with all the closed door conversations? You guys are acting strange," or "Why did Daddy send you flowers?" etc., and then saying "Well yes, you do need to know that we're working on some things with our marriage," etc. And tell S14 and S10 nothing at this time.
We talked about the chicken-and-the-egg of our marital dynamic, in that she doesn't ever want to be affectionate with me because I'm distant and angry, and that I am distant and angry because she doesn't ever want to be affectionate with me. I asked her for NO COMMITMENTS OR PROMISES in that regard.
I apologized for "lying" to her about how I felt, in that I acted like I didn't care for her affection these past 3 years. I told her that I lied the night I told D20 and D18 and D18's bff that "I never get jealous." I told her that I do.
We didn't come up with any real answers or even actions (other than the MC, which I will call tomorrow to set up), but I did say that I felt -- considering our track record of procrastination and avoidance -- we needed to put some time limits on this thing, and that I wasn't talking 3 years again, or even one year, or even 6 months. "I mean like this summer," I told her, and that seemed to shock her a little bit that I was suddenly agreeing with HER urgency. That seemed to take her aback somewhat.
We used the "d" word, and we agreed it was a last resort. We talked about our kids, and the future that we wanted for them. She did use too much mention for my comfort about some families we know that have "done it really well," and she kept using the ol' "but it's not better to stay together if you're both MISERABLE, either," and seemed to want me to sign off on that thought.
I stuck with "I think it's preferable that every marriage stay together that CAN stay together, and it's better for everyone involved. But they don't always works, no" and such.
The most emotional she got was when she talked about our kids, naturally, but then she also got choked up when she said (we were having the "space"/separation talk at the time) "I think I need to miss each other again." I asked her what she meant, and she reminded me of a time that I had taken a job promotion out of state, and had to be apart from her and the kids for several months, and she had told me on the phone one night that she "missed my presence." Then she got all choked up and said "Sometimes I want to miss your presence again."
I walked her to her car (she said "you don't have to," and I said very lightly "I know -- I want to. You got a problem with that?" and smiled at her), we hugged, and I told her how much I cared for her. Finally, I said that at first I was "sorry" for sending the e-mail, because I knew how much pain it was going to cause both of us this week (and beyond), but that I WASN'T sorry because I thought that our marriage was worth fighting for.
I sent her a very short text message:
Mrs. Choc,
Thanks for not pushing back our lunch for another day. I know this week is crazy for you, and I appreciated the chance to talk -- and to LISTEN
-- about things.
You mean a great deal to me, I hope you know that.
Love,
Choc.
She just replied:
"I'm glad we are at least talking no matter the outcome we owed it to ourselves and the kids"
Eck -- distancing. Time for the Man o' Steel to get to work.
Chocolateeyes
We wondered what we should tell our kids, and should we tell our families anything. We agreed that we will tell D20 and D18, not by calling some "family meeting" that will freak them out, but by bringing it up in context. (Ex: "What's with all the closed door conversations? You guys are acting strange," or "Why did Daddy send you flowers?" etc., and then saying "Well yes, you do need to know that we're working on some things with our marriage," etc. And tell S14 and S10 nothing at this time.
This kind of discussion about the kids' reactions to what they might be picking up in the house ( and how to handle it) is simply responsible stuff. My hat's off to both of you for putting this into the equation. You don't often read here about people considering what's going on for the kids.
You ( both) have my respect and best wishes for a successful outcome.
She said the kids were her FIRST concern, and it was actually the only "promise" she made me make, on any topic -- that we would keep them foremost. It was ahead of her own happiness, and her own concern for me, and I agreed.
Hi, Choc.
You did good.
Your right, she is still trying to distance. There is a fight going on inside her right now. There is a guy that is already making her feel desired, beautiful and amazing, and now you are mucking about in her plans, the plan where she had given up on the marriage.
So, she is pissed, upset, elated, wanting to believe you but not sure she can trust you. Add a bowl full of confusion and an infatuation with another man, stir it all up, and you have a definition for how she feels.
What makes it fun for you is that she is running everything through that filter.
She knows that the right thing to do is to stay, but the infatuation is driving her to make room for the new relationship instead of fixing the old.
So, there you are, all stuck in the middle.
Your mission is simple. Make the infatuation less important than the rest of it, and you will have pulled your feet from the fire. At that point, you can work on the marriage in earnest.
Be on your best behavior, day and night. Keep your "jacket" on at all times.
If the pendulum seems to be swinging toward the other man. Let me know and we can talk about that. I won't discuss or defend this here, but I will tell you that regardless of what you may have read, you can bust an active affair, and you don't have to wait until it burns itself out, but we can deal with that if it becomes necessary.
I am glad that you have stepped up to be the hero.
-NOPkins-
Couldn't have done it so far without you, man.
Yes, my goal is to make "Option Choc." more attractive than "Option OM."
And I get to hold all of the "kids" cards.
Choc.
Oh, I'm soooo jealous -- wish my H were doing all of this!
I think you guys will be fine; you've a lot of work to do though and you can't ever forget the lessons learned and the lessons you will continue to learn through this whole process.
Just keep up the good work & the effort to show her how much you love her and how much this means to you to get things back to good.
Oh, I'm soooo jealous -- wish my H were doing all of this!
I think you guys will be fine; you've a lot of work to do though and you can't ever forget the lessons learned and the lessons you will continue to learn through this whole process.
Just keep up the good work & the effort to show her how much you love her and how much this means to you to get things back to good.
NOP,
Forgot to tell you one good part. She mentioned the flowers at work, and how all of her co-workers were talking about them. I said "Good -- that's why I sent them. I didn't send them to be mushy, you know."
She said "What do you mean?"
I looked her in the eyes and said "I wanted everyone there -- and you -- to get the message that you're a married woman, and you're married to someone who WILL FIGHT FOR YOU."
She didn't really have much to say to that, but I think she liked it.
Only one thing to say Choc and that's - WOW !!!!!
You Da Man !!!
Congrats, you stuck to your guns and did it. And, I know exactly how you feel inside because that is exactly what I did last week with my H and things are turning around.
It won't happen overnight but you got her to agree to MC - that is HUGE!!!! and a very BIG step
Keep it going, you are doing great
Wow! You were awesome.
That will be making her feel like a whole different woman married to a whole different man.
^5
Fran
Choc, I think you did awesome!!! This is what it's going to take for the two of you to get back on track...you are earning the Man-o-Steel name :-)
And if you're thinking
You want a stranger
There's one coming home....
"your gonna see a change in me....this time I swear!"
Love that song!
NOP,
New data. My wife called OM this evening, and talked for 40 minutes. They exchanged over a dozen text messages today, including him trying to buck her up to "be bold" and to "be honest" with me at our lunch today. Her responses were "I can't" and "It's hard when it will hurt someone", etc.
NOP, she looked me right in the eye and LIED to me today when I asked her if she had feelings for this guy. I even MENTIONED HIM BY NAME. She looked right at me and denied it.
This task ahead of me is going to be hard enough if she's completely HONEST with me; how can I possibly do it if she's going to lie???
I think it's time to confront -- her AND him.. I will wait for the weekend, after my D18's graduation, so as not to upset the family unit on her special day. I could use some advice as to how to play this, as what we have is a VERY eager OM, a reluctant (but still cooperating) MILF, who is flat-out lying to her husband about the EA.
I've gotta tell you, it's taking everything in my being to not just tell her I'm done. I will fight at this for two years, if that's what it takes, if she joins me in the fight and if she's honest with me. But this just frosts my ass, and I can't tolerate it. I will have NO CREDIBILITY with her if I do!
I only asked he for ONE thing today. I didn't ask her if she still loved me, I didn't ask her to please stay with me, I didn't ask her for any sort of commitments other than the MC.
I asked her to be honest. And she couldn't do it.
Who knows, you may tell me this is completely normal, and it's all this gambit and that counter-gambit. Right now, I gotta tell you, that's awfully hard to see.
...she looked me right in the eye and LIED to me today when I asked her if she had feelings for this guy. I even MENTIONED HIM BY NAME. She looked right at me and denied it.This task ahead of me is going to be hard enough if she's completely HONEST with me; how can I possibly do it if she's going to lie???
I asked her to be honest. And she couldn't do it.
Hi Choc,
I can completely empathize with you because I always trusted my wife and could never believe she would lie to me.
In our very first MC session, she was the one that said: "I need to be
honest with you...I need some time alone." Well, she has told me so many lies since stating the need to be honest, and each lie that I recognize, cuts like a knife.
Put on the chainmail of chivalrous dignity, and go forward with courage as you have been, in excellent manner recently.
Best wishes,
LG
Journaling:
It occurs to me, upon further reflection, that OM may not necessarily be saying "be honest about us." He may just be encouraging her to be honest with me about her need for "space," or perhaps a lack of feelings for me anymore, or just her overall unhappiness. (But if she told him that she'd already sent me her reply to my e-mail, NONE of that would have been something that she would have had to be "bold" about -- it would have been stuff I already knew.) He may just be trying to get her out, on her own, and away from me, so that he can move in.
Still, she is lying to me, at a time when our entire family is in crisis. I will put up with just about anything (to a fault). I put up with 3 years of no sex, and 5 years of ML 2-3x.
But I will not put up with this.
Hi, Choc.
Okay, this is going to sting.
I expected this, and had warned you, but you had to find out for yourself. That's just the way it works. Guys have a much harder time with the information in general than the ladies.
So. She is a cheater and all cheaters lie. You just learned that first hand. Next hard subject to broach. It is extremely likely that she has been physical with this guy.
Now you know. Big deal. It isn't the end of the world.
Next issue. You are going to have to handle this in stride, and NOT CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE OR CHANGE THE JACKET. The stakes are still the same as when you started.
Don't confront her or him yet. Let me help with that. There is a right way to do it, and the wrong way will do more damage than good.
Don't expect her to be honest with you. It won't happen for a while yet, and even then, it is going to take time for your trust to return.
Keep doing what we have talked about. Don't let this thing get control of your brain. It is simply a problem to be worked. No more, no less. Disconnect from it. That IS important.
I will be out most of the day Friday. I will be back late afternoon and I am available as well in email dufellow2003@yahoo.com
Stop worrying about how to work this with her lying all through it. It is doable.
Hang in there and do nothing drastic in the mean time.
Do invite your wife out for diner and a movie over the weekend. If she decides to go out "with the girls", then try to find something for the whole family to do together instead.
Family time just became your biggest weapon. Use it. Find stuff to do. Do stuff often.
Hang in there hero, the fire is just warming up.
-NOPkins-
Choc,
Man that is tough. And to actually "hear" the words too.
I'm sure there are a lot of suspicions running through your mind right now, like "is she finally talking just because she thinks it will deflect suspicion away from OM?", etc.
But that is not important now. What is important is that what you are doing, what you started a few days ago, is the right thing to do ... for YOU and for your family. It doesn't matter if she is 100% sincere right now. You are still doing the right thing.
I hope you get a good MC that can spot what is going on right away.
I may be remembering wrong but I think you said that you hadn't eaten in two days? BTDT my friend. I lost about 25 pounds in two months during the peak of my EA. You can't do that to your body my man. Treat yourself to your favorite restaurant if you can swing it sometime soon. Get yourself a box of Wheat Thins or something semi-healthy and munch away.
Good luck to you. I wish you the best. I really hope NOPkins intuition is wrong and it is only just the beginning of an EA.
Chrome
Choc,
You need to gear up and read Grasshopper's tale here on the boards. The OM is really not the issue, but he is a detail that will need to be dealt with.
You have begun to assert yourself. Don't let it explode in your face just because you caught her in a lie. Now is the time to anchor the feelings you've started to generate. You need to show her you ARE the best alternative. Continue now that you can see it's having an effect. Keep working on being the "best choice".
I see many positives and you need to keep track of those. Keep your true goals in mind. Your boundaries are important but sometimes you need to take a loss in one area to win in another. It's not a game but it is a plan. Keep improving and be the best person you can be and if she, after you look in the mirror and say "I'm the best I can be and have done all I can", still doesn't chose you then your conscience is clear.
Keep up the good work!
OTB
Just read your latest, Choco.
I was expecting this as well. Sorry big guy. Sigh.
This is nearly word for word what x-OM IMs were in one exchange. He said to the effect of, "you need to tell him. It's been long enough." And her response was that she didn't want to hurt me and that I would be left out in the cold.
Yes, hurts like hell to think someone is lying to your face but she is like thousands and thousands of women/men who decide to engage in affairs. They are not themselves. They are enslaved by attraction, fun, mystery, and, frankly, danger (being caught sneaking around etc).
She is only human. She has a high high need for someone to validate her and you have stewed and said things to us like you didn't care what she did with whom as long as she calls you.
This is what made me so mad in your Alpha thread asking how to verbally respond to her staying out till 2 and is what dragged me out of my SSM hibernation to try and get you to be more proactive; since NOP and I could see she was highly vulnerable to an A a few months ago.
Lecture over. Now let's get to work. NOPkins has as good as advice as I have seen on this site. I have your back as well but I'm afraid I have too much going on IRL to give you the day to day help you may need.
That's why you're in the right place with so many of us who have gone through this kind of wringer. Sharpen your pencil. You are going to be a student of the anatomy of an A, regardless of its severity-- EA, PA whatever.
Trust me. If I knew this site before x's A I would have not felt as I had -- completely alone in the world and hurting like hell. And I F'd up my responses as well by being all over the map emotionally.
You can do this, Choc. I see a guy in this new thread that I have not recognized in all of your past threads. A strong man's man who is not willing to let your family go down without a hard fight.
More deep breaths. Detach from the outcome of what you fear might happen with your W's fog. Focus on the present. Today is no different than what was happening last week. It takes a long time to turn around an aircraft carrier that's been headed in the wrong direction for all this time.
Buck up, man o steel. You've got the upper hand already. X's guilty conscience is what made her end the A on her own and come back to me before I had enough evidence. And this despite my damndest best efforts to do all of the horribly wrong things to win her back.
of course I was still in the dark when OM called me, lashing out over being dumped, and opened the can of evidence worms a few weeks after she left him. Thanks, buddy. Made my life sooo much harder.)
All to say that you can deal with this, Choc. Don't suffer that your W willl be telling you lies. It's purely out of self-preservation instinct.
It actually shows that she still values your family in a very hard-for-you-to-see way. I've seen in her emails to you the evidence of this and IMO she has not lost her love for you. She is merely listening to what her feelings are telling her, which are about as much as an unreliable source as we humans can have, frankly. Fog-cutter time.
-Stigmata-
PS. I just wanted to urge you not to compare the possible extent of your W's EA or whatever it is to my story, Choc. All A's are like snowflakes, crappy ones, yes, and x has a FOO that would terrify most weak-willed men. It's not what's important.
I will give you some more insight as to the F brain for you to feel hopeful:
After her A, of course I interrogated x eight ways to Sunday about it. OM has a 180 IQ and worked for Army Psy Ops, if that gives you any idea of what I was up against. But I whipped his azz with zero guidance while often even doing all the wrong things at one point in my seat of the pants state. She soon realized I wasn't the bad guy he portrayed me to be through his twisted manipulations. She said she felt a strange sense of excitement that she and OM were caught up in a game; a game IMO he devised and knew she would find exciting.
Again, it all goes to misguided "feelings." Take heart. Win her back and decide where to go from there.
-Stigmata-
Choc,
Unfortunately NOP's is right, cheaters lie...it's part of infidelity, whether it's EA/PA. It's very rare that a cheater will come right out and be honest when asked questions, or even when they are confronted...very rare. They live in what's called the "fog" where they rewrite marital history, justify their actions, and often allow other people to influence their decisions (OM).
I cannot tell you how many times I asked my H to be honest with me, how many opportunities I gave him to come clean....and he lied to my face every single time until I confronted him with irrefutable proof. To be honest, I think for me the fact that he would so blatantly lie to my face was one of the hardest things for me to get past.
NOP's knows what he's doing, listen to him.
Choco,
To give you some heartening news, the reason your W "cant" tell you the 'truth' as OM sees it is because its not her truth.
She is going to say things to both of you to hold on to both of you.
It will infuriate you, but focusing on things like credibility and how she is not doing what you want her to do, etc is about control and possession. You want her to see you care about her, and only her feelings are going to tell her that.
She is hiding it because she is afraid of the consequences. If she didnt care she would throw it in your face.
At this moment the only thing to concern yourself with is you. You have to get ahold of yourself and make a decision, about what you want. Take the time. Give yourself the space. Your emotions encouraged you to be indifferant. They were wrong. They are going to slap your sensible choc self around without mercy and encourage more mistakes. Dont do it. Sit still.
What a farkin' roller coaster ride. Kudos to you on this:
But I WILL fight for you, and for our marriage, and for our family.
It doesn't get any more man o' steel-ish than that.
I agree with Nop, of course, on the 'settle down' aspect of not confronting her yet. Be there for your daughter tonight...it's a big night (my son's big night is next Thursday, so I know of what I speak). Don't make your daughter's memory of her high school graduation be of the big fight mom and dad had that night. Let it be what it should be - a drug and alcohol addled fog of barely remembered hedonistic celebration.
High five, to you, my brother in arms.
Hairdog, who, btw, was a lucky ba$tard this morning.
I cannot tell you how many times I asked my H to be honest with me, how many opportunities I gave him to come clean....and he lied to my face every single time until I confronted him with irrefutable proof. To be honest, I think for me the fact that he would so blatantly lie to my face was one of the hardest things for me to get past.
I honestly don't know if I
CAN get past this. More than anything else, this kills me the most.
Choc.
Don't want to hear about it, Dog!! J/k
Choc, you have to listen and focus on you and what your goals are. The A sucks big time. A lot of us here know first-hand. I'm still dealing w/ the aftermath of EA's, one-night stand BJ's, etc. It sucks, but if you want to stay w/ your W and make things work, first you have to decide to forgive and the trust, etc. will come slowly. You need to deal w/ the A, whether it's EA or PA, doesn't REALLY matter in the big scheme of things. But right now, you need to focus on family and getting to work on getting your M back on track. The other will fall into place as time goes on and issues are dealt w/.
NOP and all,
Thank you all for your words of encouragement and advice this morning. An update:
Mrs. Choc. and I ended up talking last nite for about 2 hours. We talked about a LOT.
She talks a lot about the expectations that she feels are put on her, and how people "put her on a pedestal." That she's "not as good as everyone thinks I am," stuff like that. This goes back to when she was a CHILD, even, and has continued and she feels like her parents and me, mainly, "make her out to be better than she is." It scared me a little, and certainly concerned me, that she feels this way -- that she's not a good person. (Remember, I had given her a Valentine's Day card, and wrote something really nice in it, and she said "You make me sound better than I am.") It's almost like she has this self-sabotage wish whereby she longs for something that she KNOWS is stupid, impetuous, and dangerous, just so she can show everyone "see? I'm not the person you thought I was," and bring herself back down to mere mortality so she can live her normal life in peace without so many expectations.
She said she feels smothered, that she's constantly being questioned about where she's going, when she's going to be home, who is she getting text messages from (apparently the kids have noticed that -- great), etc. In fairness, our kids -- esp. the girls -- DO constantly call us when we're out, with unimportant questions about when we're going to be home, etc., something that I often admonish them for but Susan has always said "I always want my children to feel like they can call me."
We talked a LOT about this wall that she puts up around her, and if she knows why she does it. Why she pushes me away, not just sexually and not even just affection-wise, but even emotionally. She says it's a defense mechanism, to which I said "What is it you feel you need to DEFEND yourself from with me?" Hmmm -- I'd never asked her THAT one before. She tried to think about it, but said she didn't know. I asked her specifically if she's afraid I will either hurt her or leave her, and she emphatically said "no," and I told her I just don't understand then. That I "get it" if a spouse feels like the other spouse has one foot on the platform and the other on the train, that they may feel this need to "hedge their bets," emotionally, and not fully invest themselves into the relationship, but she says she doesn't feel that's it with me.
I shared with her, more fully than I EVER have in the past 20 years ... without being mean or beating her over the head with it, but using words like "this is how it makes me feel" and all of that... the intense hurt that I have felt from her rejection.
She's confused.
And she does NOT like to talk about things, esp. BIG things. Big, UNPLEASANT things. She says it scares her, and that "I don't like to dwell on things that make me sad."
In short, SHE HAS ISSUES. Issues that go WAY beyond me, but that are obviously affecting me, our marriage, and our family. She is still willing to see MC, but I still don't think she's sincere in wanting that to SOLVE anything, but more to relieve her guilty conscience so she can say she tried.
I don't know why she does this, but it sure has taken its toll on our marriage, and on me.
I did not tell her that I knew about the cell phone or text messages, but I sure targeted my conversation as if I did.
Choc.
Cadesmom,
It sucks, but if you want to stay w/ your W and make things work, first you have to decide to forgive and the trust, etc. will come slowly.
That's just it. When I thought she was being honest with me, "wanting to stay with my wife" is what I wanted. When faced (and punched in the gut) with her lying and the words of her feelings for the OM,
I'm not sure at all if I do.How do I reconcile that?
There's this voice in the back of my head that keeps saying
"You fool! YOU are the one who's been sex- and affection-starved for most of your marriage, NOW she's cheating on you, and YOU want to SAVE THE MARRIAGE??? What a joke!"
I'm sure there are a lot of suspicions running through your mind right now, like "is she finally talking just because she thinks it will deflect suspicion away from OM?", etc.
There really are. Mainly, it's that she's only going thru the motions so she can relieve her guilty conscience. Her loving and her kindness towards me, as expressed in her e-mail that you all commented upon, I actually interpret as just a veiled "You deserve to be happy/it's-me-not-you" thing, and her pulling away. Were she really still invested in my marriage, I would have expected more RAGE.
Choc.
You need to gear up and read Grasshopper's tale here on the boards.
Where do I find that?
Choc,
Sounds like your taker is taking control. There will be time for that AFTER you have worked for awhile. Right now you're re-anchoring your marriage and need to "date" the person again. Yes, the lying is bad but it's also a defense mechanism. This is something that can be worked on during MC. She's trying not to hurt you and also hide her guilty behaviour. Get her into MC and work on honesty, being open, and work through the MC to build trust.
You are the man, you get to take the big hits for awhile. You've just taken the first real steps in awhile and it's going to be harder than before for quite a while. Are you up for the challenge?
OTB
You have begun to assert yourself. Don't let it explode in your face just because you caught her in a lie. Now is the time to anchor the feelings you've started to generate. You need to show her you ARE the best alternative. Continue now that you can see it's having an effect. Keep working on being the "best choice".
I see many positives and you need to keep track of those. Keep your true goals in mind. Your boundaries are important but sometimes you need to take a loss in one area to win in another. It's not a game but it is a plan. Keep improving and be the best person you can be and if she, after you look in the mirror and say "I'm the best I can be and have done all I can", still doesn't chose you then your conscience is clear.
Intellectually, OnTheBeach, I know this is probably true. But I am who I am, and I have always been a very emotional person. In sales, we are taught "People buy emotionally, and then use logic to justify why they bought," and it's true. Simply saying "get your emotions in check" is not only difficult for me, I literally don't even know if I WANT to just "work the plan" with someone who is cheating on me and lying to me.
I deserve better than this -- and she knows it.
That's just it. When I thought she was being honest with me, "wanting to stay with my wife" is what I wanted. When faced (and punched in the gut) with her lying and the words of her feelings for the OM, I'm not sure at all if I do.
How do I reconcile that?
There's this voice in the back of my head that keeps saying "You fool! YOU are the one who's been sex- and affection-starved for most of your marriage, NOW she's cheating on you, and YOU want to SAVE THE MARRIAGE??? What a joke!"
This is completely understandable. You're in shock. You need some time to let the dust settle, come to terms with what she's done, and sort out your own thoughts.
I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this, but you ARE dealing with it. You're doing it. Breathe. Eat. Take care of yourself.
More deep breaths. Detach from the outcome of what you fear might happen with your W's fog. Focus on the present. Today is no different than what was happening last week.
But it is!! I keep girding my loins, and getting the courage up to "1st", send the e-mail, then "2nd", talk to her face-to-face, and each time I feel like I've won a victory, I'm then faced with her deceit and her obvious attraction for this other, YOUNGER guy. I think I start to get ahead, both tactically and emotionally, and then I'm kicked in the balls and I lose the ground I've just gained trying to take the hill.
Coupled with all of this self-doubt is the knowledge that a loving, stable family life that makes her feel secure is one of the biggest cards that I have to potentially play, and yet our finances are a mess . . . the extent to which she doesn't even know yet (another one of those subjects that she doesn't want to "dwell" on, or even seem to know about). I feel like once she knows all of that, I'm screwed.
Choc.
I understand your thoughts -- I've asked myself so many times what happened to my SELF RESPECT, but I don't think that's really the bottom line. IMHO, the bottom line is "can I forgive" and "do I still love this person." Yes, you still love your W and yes, from what I've read, you want your M to work out. It's hard, but you CAN get past the lying, etc. It takes a lot of time and a lot of self preservation though. ONLY YOU can decide if you want to get past it. Don't try to decide right now if you CAN get past it, that will come later.
And slow down on the "I'm the one living in the sex-starved M," feeling sorry for Choc stuff. Sit down and think about what made you decide to send that first email to Mrs. Choc and what made you decide to finally take a stand and work on things. YOU KNEW THEN that she may be having an A and yet you still wanted to see if you could get the ball rolling in the right direction.
Again, don't put words in her mouth as far as MC and her just releiving her guilt, etc. You guys have a long road ahead of you and you need to stay positive or it's gonna go down the drain before you even get started.
Who knows, you may tell me this is completely normal, and it's all this gambit and that counter-gambit.
I think not only myself, NOP and many, many others will tell you "this is normal" because IT IS!!!
I would say the vast majority of wayward spouses deny and lie, over and over again.
My H lied so many times I can't count them all. All straight to my face even when I had absolute proof. Told me the first time, second time, third time it was over, - you get the picture?
Heck we were even going for counselling and all the time he was acting (because that's what it was) as though he was working on our R, just to find out he was still seeing her (and she lives a 3-hour drive from here - one way!!) He would go with me to the C on a Friday and go to see her on Monday (his day off) - nice huh? GEL's H was going with her to C for 2 whole years - pretending he was working on things!! Swallow that!
Choc if you are going to get through this you are going to have to be prepared for many, many set backs. Even if your wife has agreed to counselling and the like, she is not in her right state of mind and you have to accept that. You are dealing with something you have never dealt with in the past so be prepared for a whole heck of a lot of surprises (and not nice ones)
You are the man, you get to take the big hits for awhile. You've just taken the first real steps in awhile and it's going to be harder than before for quite a while. Are you up for the challenge?
I honestly don't know. I really don't.
Hi Choc.
Put your anger over the lies on the back burner. It is going to take time to get over that. No reason to let it derail you.
Her discussion with you last night was mostly vapor in order to justify forthcoming behavior. Think about that, she is attempting to set you up for a new reality. That reality is her wayward reality where she is not accounted for and has hours off to herself to pursue her new relationship.
The deal with wayward lies is that they will often have a piece of truth in them. The fact is she probably does feel at everyone's beck and call, and now that complaint is also a useful excuse to demand a little space.
Please re-read my previous email to you. Nothing has really changed, the stakes are still your marriage, and you must be the best Choc possible to win back your wife. That was the plan. Don't change it.
I will help you deal with the other man. Don't get hung up on it.
If csw (and many others) can get through this, so can you.
Let's do this thing Choc. Balls to the wall.
-NOPkins-
And slow down on the "I'm the one living in the sex-starved M," feeling sorry for Choc stuff. Sit down and think about what made you decide to send that first email to Mrs. Choc and what made you decide to finally take a stand and work on things. YOU KNEW THEN that she may be having an A and yet you still wanted to see if you could get the ball rolling in the right direction.
True, but I honestly thought (and this may be naive on my part) that once I re-opened-up to her, and told her how I really felt, and also made a stand and told her that I was going to fight for her and our marriage and our family . . . that she would "come around." She's done that before, as I think I've written on here recently -- some long-distance internet dalliances, twice in 20 years. She would come to her senses and do the right thing.
I guess I'm in shock that she doesn't seem to be doing the right thing this time -- at least not immediately.
-- Choc., who needs to figure out where to put the rage that makes me want to kill this guy
Her discussion with you last night was mostly vapor in order to justify forthcoming behavior.
That thought occurred to me too. Also that her loving and kindness, instead of the rage that I expected, is actually NOT good, as I have felt that she is using that as well as as way to pre-justify what she may decide to do.
Choc wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------
But it is!! I keep girding my loins, and getting the courage up to "1st", send the e-mail, then "2nd", talk to her face-to-face, and each time I feel like I've won a victory, I'm then faced with her deceit and her obvious attraction for this other, YOUNGER guy. I think I start to get ahead, both tactically and emotionally, and then I'm kicked in the balls and I lose the ground I've just gained trying to take the hill.
-----------------------------------------------------------
That's called a fight. You get up and start swinging again.
You can't get in a fight and not occasionally get your nose bloodied or your lip busted. That's just a part of it.
You haven't lost anything yet. You aren't down for the count. You just took a tough first round. Go to your corner and catch your breath then back at it when the bell rings.
Oh, and see what you can do to lose the lease on the sporty car. Get something you can afford, like a minivan. No need to finance a play-mobile. Do it nicely.
Start pulling the props, especially if you are strapped for money. Remember, proactive, not reactive.
-NOPkins-
Choc,
An interesting comparison. A little while ago you were saying "I hope she has an A so that it gives me moral high ground." Now you are saying you want to kill the man who is having an A with your W.
Somewhere in-between those two is the right path. The first was fueled by self-pity, the second by rage. I think the best thing you can do is try to focus on thinking logically. Your feelings are going to be all over the place for awhile. Your feelings can guide you, but don't let them lead you.
I don't know if this will be comforting or not, but I'll say it anyway. I don't know your W well, but it sounds like her A is of the same general type as mine, the kind that Harley talks a lot about, where it just sort of "happens." If so, know that this type of A is dominated by depression and confusion, not maliciousness or hatred. I don't think in her heart she wants to hurt you, she is just really confused and neck deep in rationalizations. That is not to say she isn't doing something wrong, she absolutely is.
The bad thing about this kind of A, is the other kind (malicious) is easier to resolve. Her partially self-imposed confusion is going to be hard to wade out of.
Chrome
"(Remember, I had given
her a Valentine's Day card, and wrote something really nice in it, and she said "You make me sound better than I am.") It's almost like she has this self-sabotage
wish whereby she longs for something that she KNOWS is stupid, impetuous, and dangerous, just so she can show everyone "see? I'm not the person you thought
I was," and bring herself back down to mere mortality so she can live her normal life in peace without so many expectations."
CE. Remember a few months ago our convo about your W's "this is so huge" comment about her flat stomach? It really stood out to me back then that her behavior is from someone who needs a tremendous amount of external validation. Low self-esteem. A feeling of internal unworthiness.
Have you ever read Happy Giant's old posts? the above from you could have been written by him, honest to Allah.
And he was exacerbating his problems by trying harder and harder to put his W back up on the pedestal he had carved for her.
I had to deal with this same type woman. She even said something way way back when we first started seeing each other that she finds herself unceremoniously dumping Ms who put her on a pedestal. I had blown it off and its remembrance came back to haunt me. I turned from an indifferent aloof emotionally unavailable lone wolf to putting her at the center of my world.
During her weak attempt to test my waters last year she said something to the effect that "sometimes I am my own worst enemy." She, like your W, is a self-saboteur.
I resisted divulging this, as I feel one need not divulge every single part of his/her life on a public forum, but x was victim of sexual abuse at the hands of a male monster relative as a child.
I'm guessing Happy Giant's W's FOO with local boys (and probably even before) also is why she has such self-hatred.
This is not to say Mrs. Choc suffered the same sexual abuse fate as a girl, just that something in her FOO makes her say things like x said to me after her A: "You deserve much better than me."
I didn't know about her past until well into the R and felt I would be a real chit if I were to turn tail and head for the hills-- even though I knew staying might cause me a potential pain sledghammer down the road (which it did unfortunately).
That's partly why I was afraid, because of her apparent low self worth, of you drawing too much attention to how wonderful you thought your W was through lots of gifts and attention-getting love fare. Not to mention it was so out of character for the old grumpy Choc. Thankfully you handled it quite nicely with just flowers and a very nice email that wasn't all mushy and grabby. I was holding my breath on that one.
You're right. These are her issues. And it's her job to figure them out and not give you half a wife. Just be there for her yet be firm in what you will/won't tolerate from her in terms of disrespecting you and your R. She owes it to both herself and to your family to figure out why she has such a low self-opinion and how to redeem herself.
Finally, as for the lying. One more comment.
Your W is lying because she needs to buy herself time. It's not out of maliciousness IMO. This is the ONLY way she can stall long enough to figure out what she wants to say to you from her heart that will help clear her own confusion and lessen the hurt on you in the process.
Remember that.
Weird isn't it? It's both selfish and selfless at the same time.
-Stigmata-
Coupled with all of this self-doubt is the knowledge that a loving, stable family life that makes her feel secure is one of the biggest cards that I have to potentially play, and yet our finances are a mess . . .
Hmmm... I was in *exactly* this position almost 12 months ago. My W was heavily lost in an EA with a younger guy, and I was holding the stable family card yet our finances were shot, too. I don't have too much advice to give (as I'm sure I did everything the very wrong way) although I can share my story briefly...
I fought and fought and fought for my W as hard as I could until I began to think whether it was all worth it. I wondered where it was all getting me - all this positive action when she didn't even really appear to want me to fight for her.
I turned a big, blind corner there - I think I actually said to her that that was it... that I wasn't going to fight for her anymore because it was becoming clear to me that I wasn't what she wanted. I truly saw a future for myself without her and I was close to being excited about it.
And you know, once she saw that in me (I mean REALLY saw that in me) I believe she realised that she was about to lose me for good and we started to swing the whole situation around. Admittedly, my other thread shows that normal service hasn't quite resumed just yet, but I believe it's only a matter of time, and right now things are better than they have been in a long, long time.
But part of me still feels a tiny pang of loss - not over her, but of that exciting future without her that I glimpsed.
Anyhoo, what I guess I'm trying to say is keep fighting until you can fight no more... and that's the point where you'll truly discover where your life is gonna take you.
And whatever happens, rememeber that YOU will be fine.
Or something. (Sheesh, just tell me to shut up anytime! ;o) )
I don't know if this will be comforting or not, but I'll say it anyway. I don't know your W well, but it sounds like her A is of the same general type as mine, the kind that Harley talks a lot about, where it just sort of "happens." If so, know that this type of A is dominated by depression and confusion, not maliciousness or hatred. I don't think in her heart she wants to hurt you, she is just really confused and neck deep in rationalizations.
I am 100% certain of that.
AC,
I think that's an important perspective. It's why Choco needs real tough boundaries, starting with covering his financial etc. azz and laying out what is a dealbreaker.
In his last exchange with her he asked if she thinks he will hurt or leve her. She said no, I knows you wouldn't hurt me or leve me.
Choc: Good to the first part. Bad to second.
Yes you will if it comes to it. A man has limits. And when she sees that boundary she will tremble.
PS. I apologize for bringing in what may be behind her 20 years of emotional walls. Goes right to the back burner. Just prepare yourself to hear and see the worst from her. She's dangling over a crevasse and you and OM are pulling from both sides.
Now EAT EAT EAT. You need the fuel.
-Stigmata-
Stig,
That's a REALLY good post -- thanks. You're very wise.
I have definitely done this -- put my wife up on a pedestal. For the first time last nite, I can see how that wasn't a good thing. (I did tell her, tho, that I only complimented her so much to try to please her, that I certainly knew she wasn't perfect. I told her "Look, I know you've got 10 great qualities an 10 not-so-great ones, and yeah, I would always give you a lot of praise about the 10 great ones, in an effort to build up love deposits. But I do NOT think you're perfect!").
My daughters now do this too -- my wife has the three closest adults in her life trying to please her all the time, and cater to her, and make sure she is happy. And in the process, she ain't happy at all, because it's only fueled her self-loathing that she's so flawed.
CHOC!!!! This "new" sitch has just been going on for a few days -- you don't know that she isn't going to do the "right thing."
Get back to where you were -- working on you and how YOU are going to make the M better. Quit dwelling on the A stuff and the negative.
If you keep dwelling, you are going to continue to be angry and that's not going to help. If anything, it's going to push her away -- the direction you don't want her to be going.
Choc,
I know what you are feeling right now! Although you knew your marriage had troubles, your spouse actually having an EA/PA is more than your mind could comprehend. You were praying that your gut was wrong!
I had clues that my H was involved with someone else, but when confronted, he lied to my face for over a month. That has definately been the hardest part to realize that not only would your spouse cheat, but then lie repeatedly to you to cover it up. I couldn't eat or sleep for 2 months, but everyone is right you need to take care of yourself and be mentally and physically strong now- you can't fall apart!
Our MC has put it in perspective for me which has helped. When people choose to have an affair they are acting similar to an insecure adolescent. They truly don't think thru the consequences of destroying their marriage and family. Their short term satisfaction is driven by a false high that makes them oblivious to the real world. When they get caught it takes them awhile to comprehend the reality of the situation and they will lie repeatedly to deny the painful truth of what they have done. It is actually a defense mechanism that may seem totally out of character for them. We are left wondering what else they have been lying about, but the answer is probably just this pathetic situation.
I have also learned that when you push, belittle, attack them it gives them a reason to fight back and defend themselves, you sure don't want that! I have found after 3 months of this that when I backed off(nearly impossible to do)they seem to come to reality a bit. It is the hardest thing to do, but remember you are the bigger person here. Don't let her actions make you feel bad about yourself, this truly is not about you, it is about her and her dissatisfaction with herself.
Be strong,
L
Choc,
What kind of things is she typing to OM? What kind of things is he saying?
Could this possible be a close friendship she has built? Ya know maybe just finally confided in someone about the marital problems she is having? Years is a LONG time to go without feeling desire or love from your spouse. I know it is hard and has been hard for you to. But it just seems like she made all these changes like getting in shape and a tummy tuck during this stage. She may have felt like look I did all this and he doesn't even desire me. I am sure she is confused right now. But don't give up because she may come around. I guess I am asking about OM because I to have a friendship with a male. He is ONLY a friend and that's all. It never goes further then a friendship at all. There is no attraction nothing. I have confided in him and he is someone that I talk to. With all I am going through with my husband I am wondering if this friendship could have bothered him. I asked him and he said no. But maybe he isn't being honest. I am looking to where I could be at fault in my marriage.
Well, the above actually sounds like an EA, but that's my opinion. My H's last EA was "I have a 'friend' who I've been talking to about our M problems and I started liking her." Ok, yeah, the 'liking her' part takes it a step beyond, but IMHO if you are talking to someone of the opposite sex about your M problems, it's inappropriate. I wish H would have just been talking to ME about our M problems, but that was not the case.
Tryingtoholdon,
I do think it started as only that. I then think it progressed to flirting, and this past week I do believe it has progressed further than that into a full-blown EA. I do not think it's a PA yet, but I could always be wrong, and it doesn't change my course-of-action anyway.
It's hard to decipher the text messages, as it's difficult to see which one of them said what, and which is the reply. It does seem like he's doing all the pursuing, but that she is also encouraging it. I would say the worst ones have been "Do you miss me?", which I'm certain they BOTH said, and "Will I see you Saturday?" (he trains her -- INSERT BAD JOKE HERE).
There's also of course just a lot of what they are BOTH trying to rationalize to themselves as just "emotional support," and encouragement. But I've never met a man yet that didn't want to escalate that, especially if you lead him on, and at THE VERY LEAST, she has led him on, flirted, and not set any boundaries for him.
So I'm assuming the worst. If it turns out better than that, then "gravy."
Choc.
I honestly thought (and this may be naive on my part) that once I re-opened-up to her, and told her how I really felt, and also made a stand and told her that I was going to fight for her and our marriage and our family . . . that she would "come around." She's done that before, as I think I've written on here recently -- some long-distance internet dalliances, twice in 20 years. She would come to her senses and do the right thing.
I guess I'm in shock that she doesn't seem to be doing the right thing this time -- at least not immediately.
Well, still too early to tell Choco.
She may "come to her senses" or she may be thinking, the kids are almost out of the house now, time for me to get that "space" she wants so badly.
I can't remember how many kids you have but I know you said you have a hs graduation coming up. It's often those milestones that make parents take their own milestones.
My H's father left his mother the day he drove my H off to college. Guess that was the time he was waiting for. Did his job of raising him, got him out of the house, and off his Dad went. Could his mother have done something beforehand? Can't say for sure.
But you know your part in this mess Choco. You have been ignoring her comments to you and have admitted many times on this board that you just didn't care what she was thinking/doing. It's been years of that and will be very hard to fix. But you know that. That is also why I stated earlier you need to show a side of yourself that your W has been yearning for. Someone who acts like they care, and not just going through the motions of what you think a "good H" should do. But be REAL with her. If you feel like you don't know if you can take her disrespect any longer, I'd tell her that. She needs to know that you are not going to just back down every time she decides to have "space" from the M.
You're doing better. Keep it up.
LFL
...It's hard to decipher the text messages...
This is what puzzles me...that 2 assumedly non-mentally impaired adults would carry on this type of communication using a medium that is so easily intercepted by others.
does that say anything? ("wanting" to be caught...? etc...)
or are people just generally numb wrt the electronic footprints we leave about when we use these technologies?
LFL,
Thanks. I have always related so well to your sitch and your posts (remember when others on the board thought I was Mr. LFL and you were Mrs. Choc.? LOL)
We have four children -- D20, D18, S14, and S10. D20 and D18 are about to move out of the house and share a condo together, and that's been a big part of the "timing" of this whole thing. That and my sister-in-law's death to cervical cancer at age 50 this past Christmas are the two things that my wife mentions as motivating factors for her. She is staring at a mini-empty-nest in two weeks, and it terrifies her, both because of the natural sadness in losing two of her best friends, but also I think because she knows that she's invested intimacy ONLY with her kids the past umpteen years, and now she's about to have a sneak preview of being home alone with just the lonely ol' guy she's been neglecting.
But I do fully acknowledge my role in all of this, and that, as much as anything, is what keeps me up at night. I have been stupid, I have been neglectful, but most of all I have figuratively spat upon the gift that God gave me in Susan.
"Here, Paul -- here is my gift for you. Cherish her and protect her."
I've none neither to the level that He would expect, nor have I been a strong leader in setting boundaries and helping her be accountable to her half of it.
Wanna talk about GUILT, try living with THAT.
Choc.
cac4,
I have kind of wondered about that too. For awhile, my wife was deleting them once she learned now. She may do that again, but yesterday she left them all on there, and hasn't tried overly hard to keep the phone hidden from me.
She's also text-messaged him in the presence of our daughters last weekend, while they were out shopping together, but that seems to have stopped now that I set some boundaries (didn't confront her on OM [altho I've done all but!], but did tell her I would no longer tolerate COMMENTS in front of our Ds that were disrespectful towards me.)
Well, you posted messages here on a website that you actually showed me (or at least you showed me several posts from it) several years ago. You also gave me a book (SSM) that listed the website addy. You also accessed this website on a computer that I also used and I saw "Divorce Busting" pop up in the IE address window.
When you found out I'd been lurking here, you were "horrified" to quote you.
When I asked you whether you were posting here in the hopes of getting "caught" (meaning that I would finally get some sense of what you were going through), you said no that wasn't it.
You said that you never thought I would look on this website. You probably said that because you thought I didn't care.
Choc's wife thought he didn't care. He said here that he didn't care. She BELIEVED he didn't care. Why would someone who doesn't care be looking at her phone log?
MrsCAC,
Choc's wife thought he didn't care. He said here that he didn't care. She BELIEVED he didn't care. Why would someone who doesn't care be looking at her phone log?
As recently as this past week, before I sent her the "We Need to Talk" e-mail, I think you'd be correct. But after I looked her in the eye yesterday and told her "I will fight to protect my marriage and my family," and after all of my convo of the past 24 hours (where I didn't confront her on OM/EA, but I talk a lot from the perspective as if she is), and ESPECIALLY after how much I told her that I lied and that I really DO care . . . it would be VERY reasonable to assume that I'd check it.
Choc., who still thinks it's kind of a hoot that both the H and the W post on here after each other.
(remember when others on the board thought I was Mr. LFL and you were Mrs. Choc.? LOL)
I am Mrs. Chocolate, everyone knows that.
Although I have been really good lately - I only have my decadent chocolate chip muffin once a week now. I cried when I found out there was 730 calories in each one.
Anyways, back to you.
So you will still have two younger boys in the house. I wonder if the gender is an influence. I know my H said his Dad felt very "alone" in the house when he left for college. Just his W and sister were in the house now and I guess his Dad couldn't handle having his son gone. Hmmm....
I guess it's hard when any of our kids grow up. Mine are only 7 and 5, so I have a ways to go.
But I do fully acknowledge my role in all of this, and that, as much as anything, is what keeps me up at night. I have been stupid, I have been neglectful, but most of all I have figuratively spat upon the gift that God gave me in Susan.
"Here, Paul -- here is my gift for you. Cherish her and protect her."
I've none neither to the level that He would expect, nor have I been a strong leader in setting boundaries and helping her be accountable to her half of it.
Wanna talk about GUILT, try living with THAT
Be careful with the guilt Choco. My H feels Very Guilty about leaving and it is NOT helping our R. I don't want a man who is going to walk on eggshells around me just to keep me around. If anything, it does the opposite. So just be a MAN Choco and ditch the negative feelings. They won't help you in the long run. The most attractive men are the one's that are self-assured, that stand their ground, while at the same time letting the woman know how much she is desired. It's a balancing act for sure.
Work on the boundaries Choco.
LFL
true, but I wasn't having an "affair". that's a little bit different, dontcha think?
Right. I see what you're saying.
You mentioned that she was deleting messages. But she's also sending new ones. Is she deleting those too?
I don't even understand how you're able to see her text messages unless you're grabbing her phone on the sly. That's how clueless I am, and it sounds like she is too.
mrs.cac
Choc,
I am a little torn on whether to confront the OM or get into counseling ASAP. I think the OM is not the real issue, and I think the “fog” or excitement of the OM is not the issue. The real problem is her FOO, which she is now admitting. The only way to seal the door on the OM is for your W to realize what she is doing and why, and therefore why she does not need this other guy.
Usually that is VERY difficult to do, but in the span of only a few days, you have got her to open up and start talking about some serious issues, all without anger on her part. I think it is extremely important that this open communication continue. If she gets mad, shuts down and runs, you will have a tough time, since she is naturally an avoider.
I think things are moving along quite nicely and much faster than I would have guessed. I think you should help her understand her confusion, which is natural. She is confused because she does not know herself and has been hiding from the world all these years. The way to help her see herself is to do exactly as you have been doing, let her watch you understand yourself and lay out your issues, fears, vulnerabilities, faults, etc. That will turn on the light for her. This other, younger man is nothing now than a source of giddy emotion for her. I stand by my prior comments and will guess that he is nothing more than an idiot, maybe a shrewd, manipulating idiot, but nothing to match the honesty, self assuredness (yes, you have shown great confidence) and maturity you have been displaying.
Her connection to your family is her vulnerability and you do need to capitalize on it. So she feels guilty if you bring up the kids and the family security. She should! I also bet she feels guilty because she may have experienced similar things in her childhood. If so, there’s another tool for you. She was once the victim of parents who did not support her or build her confidence, and now she is doing things to create anxiety in her kids, so she has become the perpetrator. That will make her feel guilty too, as it should!
When she says she does not like to talk about things, read that as code that she wants you to guide her through what bothers her, but she is too scared to do it herself. If she really did not want to talk about it she would not have brought it up and she would walk away when you mentioned it. Remember Happy Giant’s W? That was a woman who was really scared, so scared she could not and would not even think about her FOO.
Just be sure to address your issues so she cannot turn her guilt onto you and justify her continued affair. I like what Blackfoot says, that she believes her version of the truth. I would even go so far as to bet the OM believes he is doing the right thing too, in his warped version of the truth. That is the way it is when dysfunctional people are involved. Get a good counselor ASAP. One who is experienced and willing to explore FOO issues, in addition marriage issues.
Your W is looking to you for guidance, security and support. If she was so tied in to this OM, there is no way she would have talked to you for so long. She was in her “comfort” zone in her little setup with the OM. She is now seeing that was not so, and she is in a slight panic, trying to see who she should trust, you or the OM. I see the increased text massages and phone calls as evidence that you are stirring up a lot of thoughts in her, and as a possible sign of panic in the OM. After all, he’s just a dumb, inexperienced kid who made a really stupid mistake. Don’t panic over him, just set him straight. I’m curious to see how Nop recommends you do this. My only advice regarding that is to think about whether you should make her too mad, not out of concern that she is mad, but for the damage that could do to the communication that is going on right now.
Cobra,
Good stuff -- thanks. I'll profess, I'm not too much of a "FOO" guy, unless it comes with a nice side of good pork fried rice, but here's the tidbit I learned last night:
There is a 3rd influence at work here, beyond my sister-in-law's death to cancer at age 50 and our daughters moving out of our home. My wife is watching her parents, who live nearby and are now in their mid-80s (but healthy and active), constantly bicker at each other and fight, and she sees how sad it has made her father. (When I say "they bicker at each other," I mean "Her mom is horrible to her dad.") She loves her father very dearly, even tho he's horribly chauvinistic and doesn't recognize her accomplishments as he should (her favorite thing to bring up that her dad says: "Isn't Choc. doing a wonderful job with the kids?" She's like "Hello??? Who do you think stays HOME with them all day????!")
Anyway, she loves her parents, is a GREAT daughter and friend to them (she calls her mother EVERY SINGLE DAY), and they have been great to me as well. But she sees how her mom picks on her dad, and how her dad just takes it, and she's seen how unhappy it's made him. And I think sometimes she sees weakness in me, and wonders if she is going to be her mom, and me her dad, and maybe she could just do me a favor now and "let me go."
There -- how's THAT for FOO for ya??
Her parents -- and her whole family -- are NOTORIOUSLY non-physical-touch folks. Her dad gives her mom a kiss on the cheek sweetly when he leaves for work, when he comes home, and when they go to bed (we have vacationed together, sharing the same room, and have had a chance to see their bedtime rituals.). But otherwise, NO affection, no hand-holding, and certainly no PDAs.
This is what my wife grew up watching.
On top of all THAT, her mom is one of these old-school, Italian grandmothers, who tells you to "grin and bear it." Feeling down? "Clean your floors." Need to talk about what's bothering you? "Get over it and do your dishes." She is TOUGH TOUGH TOUGH, and although she has a tender side that she shows at times (esp. her grandkids), she RARELY, if ever, shows it to my father-in-law.
Choc.
I heard from my H that one of the things that "clinched" him wanting a D was seeing his grandparents and the way they are and he doesn't want to end up like them. They are HORRIBLE!! Anyway, luckily I was able to show him we don't have to end up like that.
You do need to look at all the issues in your M and what is affecting what, but don't let all the garbage cover up the basics of just learning how to love each other and relate to each other again.
Well, I just called her (had to make some arrangements about our D18's graduation tonite), and at first she was VERY quiet, I asked her what was wrong, and then she pretty much blasted me. Blamed me for the timing of my "bomb" and that I had ruined our daughter's graduation day, and how my wife had worked 18 years to get her to this day, and now she feels tired and bitchy and grouchy, and she "is ready to jump off a bridge."
I apologized for the timing of the e-mail, but NOT for sending it, and told her that maybe SHE could have waited, but I couldn't. She said "Sometimes you need to think of someone other than yourself," and I said "Actually, I'm starting to think that I haven't thought of myself
enough." And I also told her that I, for one, was NOT going to let my tiredness and my sadness affect my personality one whit around our daughter tonite, or around the rest of our kids either, and told her that I expected the same out of her.
"a", she's tired -- we were up till probably 4am talking, and she had to get up at 6. "b", I think she's feeling overwhelmed, and confused, and I think she probably got some blowback from OM today as well (I can only guess). He could either be telling her that he's disappointed that she backed down from a separation and made her feel like crap, or she could be feeling attracted to him today, thinking he is her "escape" from all of this, and that makes her feel like crap too, because she knows that's it's eventually going to tear our family apart.
I do think she may have depression problems, and I told the EAP person on the phone that that was one of my concerns.
Man, NOP told me today "Next, she is going to pick fights with you -- do not engage." Damn, he's good.
Choc.
Technology and txt messaging:
That's how clueless I am, and it sounds like she is too.
Some things, I don't know about and wouldn't know where they were stored or who could read the messages.
I have to agree with Chrome and others that EA's can build through regular interactions.
Some people post the OM is out to attract Mrs. Choc. I lean toward the idea he started out just wanting to be helpful, and then both got hooked.
On another forum there are several stories of men rescuing women. At first the men want to just help, then it becomes an EA/PA. So, did OM start with the idea of just training your W and it progressed to an E/A.
If OM is a player/ego prone, MILF could be a motive.
BTW, I have read several EA stories connected to gyms. Bodies and hormones in action. That is what I see.
Choc. I am using what gets posted here to avoid some problems, fix some problems in my M. BB likes me to chase her but complains when I catch her. I am going to chase less and CATCH more.
One thing Mrs. Choc said about not being that worthy or something similar, BB also said to me yesterday.
We have this triple witching month that BB feels she is neglected. Mother's Day, Birthday, and Anniversary. I didn't used to play it up or make a big verbal fuss. I always did something appropriate for each day. BB felt neglected anyway. To her, someone always overlooked some detail of the day.
A couple of years ago I played up each day, now she tells me she isn't worth all the fuss. I said "so do something to [BE] worth the effort and attention."
FWIW; Classic example: It’s Friday and I am finally getting BB to go to Mother’s day dinner at Olive Garden. I don’t understand? No one paid enough attention to her and now it takes a week of invitations to get the job done.???????
(Maybe I need to be Jeff Foxworthy and say/ask; Jeatyet? (A common inquiry when mealtime draws nigh. "Did you eat yet? “ and just say “get’n the truk, wees a goin to that olive place.”)
Back to your situation;
If everyone is doting over your W and she feels unworthy somehow, tell her to do something to be worthy.
I think the old sayings "give too much to a person, they get spoiled." (and) "Something that is worked for and earned is appreciated more than something gained to easily," applies.
Lou
PS Hairdog, U2? ^5.
If everyone is doting over your W and she feels unworthy somehow, tell her to do something to be worthy.
Man, that's good. I'm gonna use that.
Yes, I do think we've both tried to overplease, Lou. It "feeds the beast," and only raises the expectations of what you have to do the next time, and creates a sense of entitlement in the recipient anyway. I want to learn to better master the casual "Oh. I thought you would have enjoyed that, I'm sorry." and go about my business.
BB and Mrs. Choc -- now THERE'S a fine couple o' coconuts.
Choc.
One difference for sure Choc, BB wants a Hummer, not a BMW.
Another difference is I offered to buy BB a older Honda CRV and she said she wanted one with (long laundry list and 2007) so I said she better get a paper route to pay for it.
Yea, I am cheap. How about us two doing lunch at Costco? I will pay. Quarter pound Kosher hot dog and drink. Only $1.50 each.
About Mrs. Choc's BMW, Gee I liked NOP's “lose it” but never did anything like that before. I did the I will look with you up to this amount, but any more money for a car is going to come from her working more hours. BB only wanted to work ½ time, so she never got her dream ride. Just as well, she/we only drive her car 4K a year. Depreciation is her biggest expense, that and tires that rot from the sun shining on them.
What I would do is let your W (S) know finances are not so great and her acting out is mucking up your ability to be the pack leader/head of the household, ASAP.
If she mends her ways, maybe that will register in her mind that she needs to get off her pedestal/high horse and do some grunt work, like you are doing.
About “you” messing up D18 graduation, just anger from Mrs. Choc being exposed.
WTG Choc. I am impressed with all you are doing and keeping under control.
Lou
"a", she's tired -- we were up till probably 4am talking, and she had to get up at 6. "b", I think she's feeling overwhelmed, and confused, and I think she probably got some blowback from OM today as well (I can only guess). He could either be telling her that he's disappointed that she backed down from a separation and made her feel like crap, or she could be feeling attracted to him today, thinking he is her "escape" from all of this, and that makes her feel like crap too, because she knows that's it's eventually going to tear our family apart.
I do think she may have depression problems, and I told the EAP person on the phone that that was one of my concerns.
Man, NOP told me today "Next, she is going to pick fights with you -- do not engage." Damn, he's good.
Choc.
So are you, actually. I think your analysis is flawless. Listen to Nop, and don't back down.
I also think she is trying to make choc feel guilty because she herself is feeling guilty. This is called projection ( she tosses HER feelings onto you) and it will worsen until she's ready to look at herself.
And I recognize the " I am a bad W and don't deserve you" stuff as being a combo of self pity and depression (BTDT). That means " I am feeling overwhelmed and I want to be off the hook, so I'll make you feel sorry for me. Then I don't have to deal."
The main thing is to not buy into any of this.
There's this voice in the back of my head that keeps saying "You fool! YOU are the one who's been sex- and affection-starved for most of your marriage, NOW she's cheating on you, and YOU want to SAVE THE MARRIAGE??? What a joke!"
I don't post much around here this year, choc, but I've followed you for some time. This that you have said is basically what I hung my hat on after my H's A for MONTHS. Emotions and entitlement, after such an ironic rejection (i.e.
YOU had an A? It should have been ME, since I always wanted to ML and you never did, etc)
My H left his A in January 2006 and never looked back (amazing in retrospect, and OW lives across the country thank God), but I gnawed on the above bone OVER and OVER and OVER, internally and out loud. To the detriment of the reparation of my M. We are still together, but there has been MUCH preventable damage post-A because of my EMOTIONS running my actions.
I post to encourage you to hold on to what you KNOW, not what you FEEL (damned near impossible, I understand). You are getting such fabulous advice, and I am so SO SO impressed that you 'got it' and put feet to your fears and ACTED. and acted WELL.
Do your damnedest to hit "Pause" when emotions of "Fcuk THIS" threaten to derail you. It's very hard to get Big Picture perspective at this stage of the game, but you are miles in front of where I was at this point so I have great faith in your ability to handle it IF you keep looking outside of your raging emotions.
I also completely get the feeling of being given a gift from God and not protecting and appreciating it. SO get that. Just don't dwell on that (as LFL advised) and put yourself in the guilt, pussyfooting hole with it. Acknowledge and move on from here. I am a wallower, so I know of which I speak.
Didn't mean to ramble, just want to encourage you from my corner as well.
Choc,
I think any insight you can get into her FOO the better, especially if she is starting to think about it herself, and then talk to you about it. It sounds like the low level bickering in her past has created some issues for her. I read in that book about Adult Attachment Disorder that even mild trauma can create problems if it occurs continuously over long periods of time. It’s like the person just can’t get away from it and the person learns to create defenses to deal with it.
Then the grandmother’s way of handling things does not help at all. That sounds like shame-based behavior, which is all about avoidance. Shame also creates low self esteem, so a person focuses on what they do wrong, rather than take pride in what they do right. But it seems your W is trying to buck this trend somehow. At least by working out and focusing on her appearance, she is trying to rise above some of that self hatred. Better than gaining 100 pounds.
She’s caught in her own negative reinforcing cycle. Unfortunately I see you as part of that cycle (which makes sense because that is why she married you). She must want attention, love, to feel good about herself (the opposite of what she saw in her parents) or she never would have gotten into shape and become attracted to the OM in the first place. But the old patterns are hard to break. She is accustomed to emotional distance, trained by grandma to be a martyr, to stuff her feelings and find her own happiness. She grew up in a narcissistic setting where no one else was concerned about her happiness. Her parents were too busy arguing and trying to force each other to make them happy. No happiness for W, so she has to make do herself.
Fast forward to you. You fall into the victim mode yourself, withdraw, focus on your needs. She goes without, again. Nothing new to her, that’s all she knew her whole life. Again, if she is going to be happy, she needs to find it herself. No one will do it for her. No one can be trusted. Not her parents, not her grandma, not you, and though she may not realize it yet, not the OM (no matter how nice he may actually be). The loss of your sister-in-law only reinforces her loss issues. The ONLY safe haven is the children. They love her unconditionally with no strings attached. Their moving out is a SERIOUS loss for her.
So is it any wonder that she is confused? Of course she is. She has no idea what love is supposed to be, how it should feel, how she should act, how she should expect others to act. You put someone like that up on a pedestal, and they will REALLY feel the pressure. What are they supposed to do? They have no clue! They want love, but it becomes engulfing. What to do? RUN!!!
As you might guess, I pull a lot of this from my own sitch. So I might be wrong on many parts, but I see similarities. This is a very scary thing for her to face. If my hypothesis is right, the bottom line is that she is scared, plain and simple. She wants and needs protection and comfort, but does not know what that is when it is offered to her. So the allure of the OM is tempting. She cannot recognize the danger.
Try to see things from her POV and it might help you in talking with her. It will also help her to hear you, and you to hear her. Then get to a counselor ASAP!!! You may not be a FOO guy now, but I bet you will know FOO inside and out before your M can be repaired. Pick up some books. Try to understand where she is coming from. That will help to validate her.
YOU picked a bad time to bring this up? So when is there a "good" time? When the kids go to college, when they get married, after they have had all their kids, when you retire. Plezzzzzzzzz - there is no such thing as a good time.
This is just another way of deflecting - another pretty common tactic of avoidance
Cobra,
I just wanted to pop in very quickly to give you kudos. I thought that was an excellent post.
This is something I've been investigating primarily in terms of my own life but I see patterns in others.
It's called "toxic shame" and it occurs in FOOs where there is a hypercritical environment and the child is constantly criticized.
Or in males, the father is completely emotionally and/or physically detached while the boy is under the harsh yoke of the mother, causing him to become passive himself with low self-esteem.
Or, as in Chrome's case, the father is a real SOB type abuser and the boy feels worthless with no healthy male guidepost. He grows up and his need for validation from some source (usually a female since males by culture usually don't open up to other males to soothe them). Boom. EA turns to PA and everyone is left hurting.
That's a male example but works same with females.
A female who is not being loved, cherished, or positively enforced by parents is left only to her own devices... soothes herself via shopping, addictions, attention from males... and generally expresses some noticeable narcissistic traits. And the emotional walls are firmly in place.
Gotta skeedaddle...
-Stigmata-
Hi, Choc.
LFL made a very important point to you regarding guilt.
You have admitted to your part of the problem, and you are facing the result head on. Good deal.
Now, until you reach the recovery phase in your relationship, lose the guilt, and don't mention it to your wife again. The reason for this is simple - from this point on, EVERYTHING will be blamed on you by her. Everything that has ever been wrong with the marriage, even things that you have never even considered, things that you have never even heard of, will be your fault. Allowing your guilt to further feed the entitlement monster is just that, fuel for the engine. So don't do it.
You have lots of good folks pulling for you. I am counting on you to hold it together and continue to be the hero.
You do this thing right and you become the hope of a better future for some of the people that are posting to you, and some that are lurking and just following the story as well. Most importantly, your children will see something rise up in you that they have never witnessed before. They won't know what to think of it at first, they may never even define it, but the positive change in you will impact them for the rest of their lives. You will never be perfect, and they don't expect you to be, but I promise you, they will never forget witnessing the birth of a real man.
-NOPkins-
Wow. Cobra, your post was excellent. A lot of it resonated with me and I think I've gotten another clue about myself. Thank you. Same to you, Stigmata. Very insightful.
NOPkins, your post was INSPIRING. And I'm not even a man.
What a cool place this is.
YOU picked a bad time to bring this up? So when is there a "good" time? When the kids go to college, when they get married, after they have had all their kids, when you retire. Plezzzzzzzzz - there is no such thing as a good time.
This is just another way of deflecting - another pretty common tactic of avoidance
I started wondering today if I SHOULDN'T have waited, just a tad, cuz of D18's graduation. But then I thought about the calendar: Graduation. D20 & D18 moving out end of May. June? Father's Day. Early July? Her birthday. Mid-July? My birthday.
It will ALWAYS be something. It was time to DO something, and as much as I really did hate springing it on her, there's no question that it not only had to be done, but it had to be done now.
Choc.
My wife's parents were never hypercritical. They're not even really critical.
I do think that the lack of attention from ME, however, did lead her further into these narcissistic qualities, tho.
NOP,
All I can say is, "Wow." I just printed that and saved it.
Talk about burning your boats behind you. Guess I gotta defeat the other army now, huh.
Choc.
And I sooo appreciate the encouragement, Believing. I really do. You people are what's keeping me going -- you and those eight big brown eyes I just kissed goodnite.
Choc.
From another brown eyed girl to you,
I feel how overwhelmed you are and I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to hold it together and not just stand in your front yard and scream out all the feelings that you have. Question - besides here where can you share your feelings? Is it time to get a personal counselor, make use of clergy, sibling, best friend? I think everyone needs a place to get rid of the stuff that floats to the top when you are going through a "crisis" period.
You are doing terrific and I think your response to the "bad timing" was great. There will always be another occasion, always be a bad time. Exactly when would be a good time to say "thing are falling apart" ?
Keep at it.
Karen
Karen,
Thank you for the kindness of your note. I really appreciate your concern, and it occurred to me that I did need exactly that.
I have decided to keep things very simple for now, as I need a singlemindedness of purpose. I have a team to help me.
We are going to go to MC, together, and I may also see someone just for me.
I have reached out to my sister, who knows me well, knows my wife well, and whose prayer and Christian perspective are needed right now. She is my spiritual guide on this, and we are going to be working thru some issues.
I am working with NOP on the OM stuff, tactics, etc., privately just in case W or OM should read here (my wife has begun some internet searches now for "troubled marriages" and such).
Finally, this community here. This is where I get my encouragement, the first-hand accounts from other LD women, the kick-in-the-azz from the alpha males, and thought-provoking questions and challenges to myself.
I'm off to the gym to work out. Both W and OM are there this morning. Time to brush off the steely look and put on the jacket.
Choc.
Choc,
I'm off to the gym to work out. Both W and OM are there this morning. Time to brush off the steely look and put on the jacket.
Yeah!!! YOU GO BIG DOG!!! Stake your claim! Piss a circle all over that gym! Lift you leg a few extra times just to make them back off! LOL!
When I walked in the gym, OM was working behind the counter, alone. He didn't see me at first, as he was looking away from me, and he was about 20 feet away. So I let out a big "MIKE!!!" He wheeled around, looked at me, and looked like he had seen a ghost. "Howyadoin'" is all I gave him, he looked like he wanted to be chatty, and I kept on walking.
After her last client left, I didn't see my wife for nearly an hour. Usually, she would come over, say hi (particularly since I hadn't been to the gym in 3 weeks), or at least wander the floor a little. Didn't see OM, either. I finally finished my workout, and saw another girl who I know, working the front desk. "Did Mrs. Choc. leave??" I asked her. She seemed a smidge nervous, or it could have been my imagination. She called for my wife, who was in the little back room (open door) right behind the front desk, and guess who she walked out with. He immediately started babbling and joking and talking at the same time my wife and I were talking.
They were definitely talking about SOMETHING. Because they're close to the 3rd girl, and they usually all hang around together at the front desk and shoot the chit. Had it all been innocent, the two of them would have been out there with her.
Mrs. Choc. took D18 to go get her graduation gift (a watch) sized. I'm taking S14 and S10 to the ballfields to watch a game and to practice a little.
Choc.
Choc,
I agree with NOPkins. It would have been easy to start spouting "what were you guys doing back there, what were you talking about" type stuff, but that might have come across as whiny and grabby. I don't mean for this to be trite, but I think when they walked out together would have been a really good time for a Spock "one eyebrow raise." kwim?
At any rate, you REALLY got OM unsettled, which is good, but it may mean he will start power plays of his own to save face. I'm betting he's going to cook something up with your W soon. Be ready.
Chrome
Well, they've been swapping text messages all night. You may be right.
Trust me, there are times -- many -- when I feel like he can just have her.
Yeah, but you don't truly mean that. Remember what your objectives & goals are and don't let anything cloud those. I mentioned on my thread that I just got cell bill and it all comes tubbling back. He had massive amounts of minutes and I know it was all EA/OW. Hopefully you can just keep things on the right track and everything will end up falling into place as time moves on. It's hard though b/c we want everything to be fixed NOW.
Hopefully once you guys start seeing a C, you can really get down to what needs to be said & done to start moving forward. Right now the OM is just a glitch in getting started on the moving forward part.
I honestly believe if you just keep doing what you're doing, she's going to realize what she would lose -- what would she want w/ some young, clueless kid? I mean honestly!! Have you still been doing the little touches, etc.? Looking good? Get her engines revved up for you by teasing a little bit, you know?
"You're Lost Little Girl"
The Doors
You're lost little girl
You're lost little girl
You're lost
Tell me who
Are you?
I think that you know what to do
Impossible? Yes, but it's true
I think that you know what to do, yeah
I'm sure that you know what to do
You're lost little girl
You're lost little girl
You're lost
Tell me who
Are you?
I think that you know what to do
Impossible? Yes, but it's true
I think that you know what to do, girl
I'm sure that you know what to do
You're lost little girl
You're lost little girl
You're lost
Well, they've been swapping text messages all night. You may be right.
Trust me, there are times -- many -- when I feel like he can just have her.
Eight brown eyes would disagree.
I think so far, it's all extremely common, and extremly predictable. Not one variation from the script. You got all the cards, man. I mean it.
I don't expect it to be fixed now. I just want to see some effort now. Or even some concern. There's nothing but distance and bitchiness and covert text messages to each other.
Yes, I dressed nicer today than I normally do, mowed the lawn, cleaned the kitchen, and took the family out for a nice graduation dinner. All I got from my wife and D20 was a bunch of crap. Nothing, I mean NOTHING that I did was right. Nothing was good enough. It never is.
Honestly, this guy isn't even good-looking. I'd tell you if he was. The OTHER trainer, now that was the guy I was worried about -- 6'4", 220 lbs, good looking guy. This guys short, and not even a good-looking guy.
This is what she wants to screw up her family for???
Why am I fighting for this?
It may be predictable, but it's still bullchit.
Like SG said, all script.
In any case, hurt as it might, you won the round today. Busted nose, sweat and all, you still won.
Oh, and it is almost always the case that the other person's attributes are a step "down" from the spouse. It is part of the fantasy for your wife. It's part of what makes her feel better about her.
Think about it. If she had hooked up with Fabio, she would be uncertain as to her ability to hang on to him. As is, she is on top of the game - he is fighting for her.
Settle in for the long haul.
-NOPkins-
Is
everything about this going to be counterintuitive???
-- Choc., who supposedly "won the round," but sure feels like cracked ribs to me.
Choc wrote: "Is everything about this going to be counterintuitive???"
Mostly.
-NOPkins-
Choc.
Anytime your actions create a flurry of activity between the infidels, that would indicate that the wayward pair are expending considerable energy to recover their balance (damage control). Then you have done well.
If you think that you are going to break up their relationship in one fell swoop, then you need to regroup.
Try to take some encouragement out of this. When is the last time you really got to strut your stuff? Even if you lose, you win. There is always high demand for real men that can be faithful and strong.
The real battle comes down to this. Since you are already showing MrsChoc that you are ready, willing and able to take back your role as husband and leader of the family, the duration of the remaining fight will depend on the other man's determination. I am trusting that yours is greater than his.
He simply can't compete on the familial front, so you have already won that battle.
Remember, there is no magic, only hard work.
Keep your jacket on.
-NOPkins-
Choc,
Hmmm....you need to dial down the expectations! This is a long, long campaign. You didn't get into this situation over night and one confrontational visit isn't going to change it back right away.
Be consequent! You have to show that OVER TIME you are going to do what you said you were, protect your family. Mix it up on the visits to the gym. Be not so predictable ("I'm just trying to get some work outs in but my schedules been a little messed up lately."). Different times and different days.
Remember, it's not the OM that you need to focus on. It's the relationship with your wife. You need to BE the better choice through your actions and entice your wife back to you. While you're doing this you'll start to notice that special gleam in other women's eyes. That means you're doing it right! Just don't get onto that false path of self indulgence because some pretty woman sees you for what you are before you wife does. People will see you for what you are as you go along and you need to guard your heart because it will be easy to succumb to a pretty face who is attracted to you as you do the right things. After all, there are so many women out there looking for a GOOD man that your wife will really, really regret losing you if it comes to that. You will have absolutely no problem attracting a new woman through your new knowledge!
You did well and just need to keep it up and keep your taker under control. Plan a date with the wife, no R talk, just fun. Do something neither of you have done before to create new memories, new connections that don't have anything to do with your past. You da Man!
OTB
Choc., who supposedly "won the round," but sure feels like cracked ribs to me.
Choc, I see a big pile of disconnects between you and your W, I will call the gravel pile.
The pile got to its present size, a scoop at a time. You have a shovel and can't get rid of the pile in a few days. No prince kissing the princess and she wakes up. That type of story just sells books.
I will go along with NOP, you did well showing up, shoveling your stuff. In situations like yours showing up, starting to shovel down the pile is a victory. Just showing up is a victory step, some people would avoid. It’s a victory when you can keep yourself together on the outside when confronting Your W’s A and look like you are in control on the outside, then do your other dad things.
You say it feels like you have cracked ribs from the last round. Maybe a better thing to think is, you can start to feel a few blisters on your hands from the shoveling work you did yesterday. Blistered hands can turn to calloused hands, when the area is worked for a while. Use all the aids available to mend and heal the blisters you feel you might have or might acquire.
I was wondering if the OM has a W or kids. If so, is his M screwed up and your W and the OM are finding comfort in each other?
Sometimes people want to blame all on the OM. Reality can be your W started out helping him and had no intentions of it going this far, or there could be other reasons for the A.
Not important, so don’t think about the reasons. You have enough work ahead of you. I have a list of smart azz remarks about the OM but I will keep them to myself for now.
I read On TheBeach’s post Remember, it's not the OM that you need to focus on. It's the relationship with your wife. and thought yes, she could end her involvement with the OM any time and go no contact with him.
(((((Choc.))))) man-o-steel.
Lou
PS
Geez, women that want/like to be chased, don't like to be caught, then have A's of some type. Choc, I am taking this all in and decided to chase and catch BB and do some boinking just because it needed to be done.
Lou, great analogy of the gravel pile and shovel. Thanks for that, it works for me over here too.
Plan a date with the wife, no R talk, just fun. Do something neither of you have done before to create new memories, new connections that don't have anything to do with your past.
I thought that was really good. I'm gonna do it!! I will remind her ahead of time of "no R talk," so she doesn't think it's another "heavy" ambush.
And yes, I need to dial down my expectations. I'm trying, I really am. The nighttime is the worst.
Lou,
I like the bit about the blisters and callouses. I'm associating "pain" with "no progress," and as your analogy points out to me, that's not necessarily the case. In fact, around the gym of course, we like to say "NO pain, no gain."
Something tells me "the gravel pile" is an image that entered my consciousness now -- LOL. Daily shovelling. I've also had "Dorie" from "Finding Nemo" in the back of my mind, singing "Just keep swimming, just keep swimming . . . "
To answer your question, the OM is single, and HE's been helping HER (yes, trainers have trainers). As confused as I've been throughout this, there is one thing of which I'm 100% certain, and that is that the relationship with OM is just a symptom of the problem; it's not the problem itself. HOWEVER, it is something that -- if it has progressed to the full EA phase (and I'm still not so sure it has), attacking it immediately, while I work on me, is imperative. There is also a problem that this keeps recurring, about once every 3 years, this "wanderlust" in my wife. What is she not getting from me and our marriage that makes these other guys so attractive to her??
And why, o why, does she push ME away, and then end up with some romantic void in her life that she has to look elsewhere to try and fill?
I'm not undertanding your "P.S." Are you saying you were a lucky bast$rd last nite?
Dorie" from "Finding Nemo" in the back of my mind, singing "Just keep swimming, just keep swimming . . .LOL, the grand daughters favorite video. I liked it and "Cars."
I'm not understanding your "P.S." Are you saying you were a lucky bast$rd last nite? Boinking usually means sex Choc. It's been a month or so for us/me. I tried to have some "us time" o/w conflict, you know, waiting till the time was right, :eyeroll: since the end of last week, now 8 days past.
Thursday evening I decided to just do-it. BB had a few objections. The typical, "it would have been better if you/Lou would have ______________....." but that is normal.
The next day I told BB my blood pressure was down 5 points, I slept better, and I was more relaxed. She worries about her and my blood pressure that runs around 135/140 w/o meds. I showed her my 125 on the home BP meter.
Yea, I know. According to BB, if I would forger about sex, the BP would go down naturally. Wanting sex just keeps it high. :eyeroll:
And why, o why, does she push ME away, and then end up with some romantic void in her life that she has to look elsewhere to try and fill? Same here Choc.
The best I can guess is some people want the soup with out cutting up the ingredients and cooking it.
I have a hunch, wanting something a person doesn't have is somewhat normal. Maybe it is associated to our hunting gathering ancestry. We want more things. We want what looks good on the outside but don't know what is wrong on the inside. Same old same O is boring. Variety is exciting for a while till the downside bites you in the butt.
Like I said before, simple is good for me. For some people attention, status, things, etc are important.
I am helping (electrical, plumbing repairs) an older couple from church. The H has a serious medical condition. H & W are very nice. BB really admires the guy. He is so complimentary to everyone and BB eats the compliments up. Your W sounds similar.
... a problem that this keeps recurring, about once every 3 years, this "wanderlust" in my wife. What is she not getting from me and our marriage that makes these other guys so attractive to her?? My first thought, the OP doesn't have any demands a first and their is no baggage in a new R/friendship. New feels good till the expenses and repairs start showing up. Just my opinion.
Choc, if the tables were turned and it was you txting an OW, I can imagine your W hanging on to you for dear life.
One of my smart azz comments I had in my head only, was to go to the OM and say “You like my W? Pay off the tummy tuck, the BMW, the college fund for the 4 kids, buy her a new house, and pay for X, Y, and Z I bought for her in the last 5 years.”
I think the guy would have second thoughts about rescuing your W or seeing her as a plum ripe for picking. I don’t know what the OM sees or thinks. Adding the responsibility part to any A/overly involved friendship to my way of thinking should cool the fantasy.
It was my thought so don’t do it Choc. If your W ever got wind of it, she might think you think/feel, she is for sale. Like I said smart azz thoughts. Say 7th gradish?
Maybe that line of thinking (which I had going in to almost all of my R) kept me from having casual R’s with women/girls. Too many people think love is free/easy. It involves a lot of work, IYKWIM.
Lou
Choc- I think like everyone here that you're handling this whole situation
so well, very impressed. The analogy of the gravel pile reminds me of a
story from Ajahn Brahm called "a truck load of dung"
link "a truck load of dung".
While it doesn't pertain directly to your situation maybe you or others can find
something of value in it, the analogies did remind me of each other.
I think the two questions you ask are very important questions to ask,
and if I may let me take a swing at them.
1. What is she not getting from me and our marriage that makes these other guys so attractive to her??
She doesn't have to be mommy or wife to anyone she can be herself or at least
not perform any role other than the one she choses for herself. Perhaps a feeling
of agency apart from the family bonds, a rebellious teen type feeling of wanting to
stand away from the group and define self alone. The excitement of possibilities
and danger lifting her brain chemistry out of a low level depression maybe
"I can change everything" and that that will make me happy. Boosting her sense of
self esteem with validation from others tells her that she still has it, unfortunately
validation from others is like a drug you just need more of it to get high. She gets
an emotional charge a feeling from the situation that makes her feel "alive" in a
way that being "good" never did.
2. And why, o why, does she push ME away, and then end up with some romantic
void in her life that she has to look elsewhere to try and fill?
Sounds like a fear of intimacy and problems joining the romantic to the
familiar, the erotic and the matrimonial. In the book "he's scared she's scared"
the author talks about commitment phobias, and has some great insights about
active and passive avoidance of intimacy.
Author interviewand Choc what ever happens you can handle it.
HUMAN TOUCH
Bruce Springsteen
You and me we were the pretenders
We let it all slip away
In the end what you don't surrender
Well the world just strips away
Girl, ain't no kindness in the face of strangers
Ain't gonna find no miracles here
Well you can wait on your blesses my darlin'
But I got a deal for you right here
I ain't lookin' for praise or pity
I ain't comin' 'round searchin' for a crutch
I just want someone to talk to
And a little of that Human Touch
Just a little of that Human Touch
Ain't no mercy on the streets of this town
Ain't no bread from heavenly skies
Ain't nobody drawin' wine from this blood
It's just you and me tonight
Tell me, in a world without pity
Do you think what I'm askin's too much
I just want something to hold on to
And a little of that Human Touch
Just a little of that Human Touch
Oh girl that feeling of safety you prize
Well it comes at a hard hard price
You can't shut off the risk and the pain
Without losin' the love that remains
We're all riders on this train
So you've been broken and you've been hurt
Show me somebody who ain't
Yeah, I know I ain't nobody's bargain
But, hell, a little touchup
and a little paint...
You might need somethin' to hold on to
When all the answers, they don't amount to much
Somebody that you could just to talk to
And a little of that Human Touch
Baby, in a world without pity
Do you think what I'm askin's too much
I just want to feel you in my arms
Share a little of that Human Touch
Feel a little of that Human Touch
Give me a little of that Human Touch
Not a whole lot new going on here. My wife seems friendly enough, but still distant, as if we've discussed NOTHING, and it's really starting to pizz me off. Why doesn't this bother the chit out of her??? I'm dying inside, and she acts like there's nothing extraordinary going on whatsoever.
I'm trying to be patient, but I'd like to know WTH it is I'm looking for next, either "this would be a good thing" or "this would be, uh, not so good."
I've been thinking about this a lot: WHAT, exactly, is it that I'm LOOKING for in these next few days from my wife? I know what would be a BAD thing (I should have day/times options for first MC appt. tomorrow, if she balks at that, that would be a huge problem; or, if text messages with OM indicate that they're only being "careful" for now and buying time until my wife can convince me to separate; and a thousand other BAD things i can imagine, and would certainly recognize).... but what would be the GOOD things that I'm looking for from her next? This is gnawing at me. I wake up every day, hopeful that "progress" will be made, however small, and yet I can't define "progress." What is it that I'm looking for here? A self-exposure where she admits to me about the OM, and tells me she was a fool and shut that down? Some sort of "mea culpa" about her coldness and her distance? Simple kindnesses, god forbid in my love language, like a small touch or a held hand?
What??????????
Choc.
You will know what you are looking for when you see it. It will come in the form of a paradigm shift in her approach to everything. She will get worse or better, but as long as you do the things you are doing, it will NOT remain at station.
If you are waiting on her to voluntarily "come clean", just make sure that you don't hold your breath while you wait.
When she does "shift", then you will make your move.
Once that is done and emotions have somewhat normalized, you will negotiate your relationship from there.
There is your peek into the future.
No magic, just hard work.
-NOPkins-
Don't know, dude, but I do know you need to stop the negative self talk. Working on that myself and it ain't easy, I know.
Have you ready Divorce Remedy yet? You need to. It will give you a map for what you need to be doing from here.
You just need to continue to stay positive and love yourself (easier said than done), but also continue to just love her and show her that love.
Unfortunately, you have to just put yourself out there on a limb. If your M is what you want, you have to be willing to be the one who does all the work for awhile.
Continue to just talk lovingly to her, touch her when you walk by, etc. Act "as if" nothing is wrong.
Choc.
One other thing you have to remember, she is cruising on chemicals, and the secrets make it that much more fun. She is less concerned with what might hurt you or the kids and very concerned about maintaining her high. That's just the way it is.
We both know that hell is coming to Frogtown soon, so relax.
-NOPkins-
NOP,
No disrespect at all, but that all sounds like a bunch of code to me.
I miss my wife. I want to know what she's thinking, and I want to know what she's FEELING.
If God is trying to get my attention, I can assure you, He has it.
Choc.
My marriage IS what I want . . . if it is with my old wife, and not this alien that's laying on the couch across from me.
Does that make sense?
Choc.
I understand what you want. I didn't feed you code.
The simple fact is that you can't have her back on your terms at this point in the process. Period.
You work the process, or you wait on the affair to burn out. Either way, you suffer. With the first option, hopefully, the affair is shortened and recovery can start much sooner.
You have seen me post it to others here. Life has sent you a boatload of pain. The quickest way to the other side is through it. The longer you wallow in self pity, the longer you stay in pain. Regardless, there is no way around the pain.
No magic.
-NOPkins-
NOP,
I'm not wallowing. Or at least I'm WORKING at it WHILE I wallow.
Choc
Rarely post here but occasionally read and have followed your history.
Rough background to my own situation M 31 years H had an A 15 yrs ago PA with younger girl knew but could never get proof no mobile phones or emails to check back then. H ended the A without ever giving me the speech.
As ALWAYS happens when someone is having an A they withdraw emotion from their partner and my H also withdrew all affection. I would occasionally try to get close to him (A lasted 2 yrs off and on) but was rejected so often I withdrew emotionally myself.
So when thr A ended I was still unable to be intimate and the cycle continued of no ML and he slept with a friends W. Everything came out into the open about the previous OW and I thought o.k. this will never happen again. Our SL improved and I thought great we're back on track. However it still seemed to be me doing all the initiating and eventually I just didn't bother. I knew he worked hard and was often jet lagged and didn't want to put pressure on him. To be honest I never really felt that he truly desired me.
I relise now that the issues of why he chose to have an A in the first place were never really addressed by him or me. Lack of communication has always been a big problem in our M.
Fast forward to now. Discovered H has/had been having an EA/PA not sure which because H has ED problem. Confronted him about the A and told him I wasn't prepared to live without affection any more. If he pulled away from me again the M was over. I explained how starved I had felt and that I had become tired of always being the one to make the first move. I wanted him to kiss me passionately and to become intimate again.
Obviously the ED was an added complication as I knew he had viagra but would not use with me. Anyway we started kissing again dating and doing more as a couple. I realised how men felt from reading this and other sites and I have changed dramatically. I managed to find a supplement that has meant no need for viagra and we ML at least once a week and it is better than it has been for years for both of us.
I can honestly say my H would have described me as LD when I was desperate for intimacy. I just wanted him to show it to me not the other way around.
I guess why I'm telling you this is to give you hope that you CAN rebuild intimacy with your wife but you BOTH have to see that you BOTH have to change.
Wishing you lots of luck
Shmagic
Shmagic,
Thank you for your post. You said something right there at the end:
I guess why I'm telling you this is to give you hope that you CAN rebuild intimacy with your wife but you BOTH have to see that you BOTH have to change.
That's precisely what frustrates -- and frightens -- me. I don't think she has ever tried to change. We've been thru this several times before, and she's even gone so far as to admit to her "issues," and to make promises she has then broken. She either no longer things she needs to, or she's confused an unable to.
Today will be interesting. I'm expecting to get a couple of MC appt. options from our Employee Assistance Program at work, which I will then call W with to coordinate our schedules. I fully expect her to try to stall until after I get back from being out of town 5/26-5/30. I am going to push to at least have our initial session before we leave, as I need to know that she's committed to this. If you all remember, when we had "The Talk" at lunch last week, we agreed that MC was "Step 1."
Choc.
Excuse the hijack, choc, but shmagic said:
I managed to find a supplement that has meant no need for viagra
I'd sure like to know the name of that supplement.
You're still doing great, choc. And I think it's very smart to ask yourself what it is that YOU want, especially since this seems to be a recurring cycle. Is there
anything about the cycle this time around that seems different from past times?
Lillie,
I never mind hijacks when they may at least lead to SOMEBODY getting boinked.
What I want is for my wife to come back to me, physically and emotionally, as I am admitting my neglect and coming back to her. I want our family to stay intact, and our kids to have as great a chance possible for success in this already-difficult world. I want my wife to
try, and I want this cycle of "wanderlust" to stop once and for all.
I want to be able to break our dysfunctional cycle of:
Choc.: I'm unhappy because I get no affection -- much less sex -- from my wife, and it's killing me.
Mrs. Choc.: I'm unhappy because he's so distant and grouchy, and mainly because I know I don't make him happy. Any fool can see that.
Choc.: "Why are you unable to give me what you know I need, if you supposedly care for me so much, Mrs. Choc.?"
Mrs. Choc.: "Because you seem so unhappy."
Choc.: "But I am only unhappy because YOU are unhappy, and not trying to meet my needs."
Mrs. Choc.: "I don't know if I can meet your needs, or even how I feel about 'us' anymore.
Man, talk about "enmeshment." We are both riddled with guilt that we are making the other miserable.
Is there anything different this time? Yes. Her heart has grown SO cold, that she did not respond to my grief over the state of our marriage, and my "I for one am still in love with you" proclamation.
Also, she now probably has enough confidence in her own body image and abilities to seriously consider trying to make her way in this world without me.
And that cares the bejeezus out of me.
Choc.
Choc,
I can't offer much wrt to how affairs happen and what to do and I do NOT want to pepper your trampled-upon mind with trite crap such as "rome wasn't built in a day" etc (blech!) but can I just say this?
You are really shining, man!
I like the new Choc a helluva lot and I liked the old one pretty good. This new guy, tho, he's quite masculine and has a new toughness to him. I liked the lyrics-quoting sensual guy you were before, but you're the whole package now. Keep it up!
Hugs big guy..
Well, I'm still gonna quote lyrics; I'm just gonna mix in a little NUGENT every once in awhile now, that's all.
Thanks, Honeypot.
-- Choc.
mini hijack to lil
Your words helped me right at the beginning of understanding some of the ED issues from a male POV.
I'm not sure if your bf would be able to take this particular supplement because of his other medication. My own H had no medical difficulties other than high cholesterol which I have since discovered can be one reason for ED plus tremendously stressful job.
My H was really depressed about the ED so I ordered something called prelox from a health/vitamin supplier. It contains L~arginine which is good for blood flow and has the added benefit of reducing cholesterol. I checked with my husbands doctor first if there was any reason that he would be unable to take this and he gave the o.k.
It takes about a month to kick in and my H took one night and morning. I sold it to him as more of a vitamin supplement and so far has been working really well. Only thing I disliked about them is the pills are blue!!! The difference is that ML can be spontaneous no planning on taking an hour before or feeling like a waste of time if the partner isn't in the mood.
Obviously he would have to check with the doctor but hopefully your bf would be able to take this supplement.
It is a bit scary ML just in case things go wrong but so far I'm having a great time long may it last.
Choc
If your wife sees the only problem being with you I can see how difficult it may be to resolve anything. I'm not sure if my H could really see that his own actions and behaviour caused a lot of our problems. I think he may have read some of what I wrote on this forum a while ago and started to realise that the lack of intimacy wasn't all my fault. Once he realised I did want more passion then he started to reconnect more to me and the family as a whole.
Got to dash to pick up son good luck once again to lil too.
I am told I should be kind, be loving, treat her as if we were very best friends (but not be needy/grabby).
At the same time, in reading on infidelity and EAs, I'm reading where the wayward wife gets some of what they need from each man, and so she has no need to change.
If I do not have sufficient proof of an affair, and I act like her best friend, w.t.f. WOULD she change? She gets the best of both worlds.
She told me at lunch last week that she wanted to "miss" me again, to see if she would. I think maybe I need to start now.
She told me at lunch last week that she wanted to "miss" me again, to see if she would. I think maybe I need to start now.
Choc, that's affair-speak for "I want you safely out of the way so I can have some fun with OM, but not lose you completly ".
No cookie.
Choc said:"She told me at lunch last week that she wanted to "miss" me again, to see if she would. I think maybe I need to start now."
STOP PLAYING HER GAME. Disconnect from the drama.
-NOPkins-
I am told I should be kind, be loving, treat her as if we were very best friends (but not be needy/grabby).
At the same time, in reading on infidelity and EAs, I'm reading where the wayward wife gets some of what they need from each man, and so she has no need to change.
If I do not have sufficient proof of an affair, and I act like her best friend, w.t.f. WOULD she change? She gets the best of both worlds.
The idea is that once she's asked the question "would the other guy make me happier over the long run?", she can't really unask it or put it out of her mind; she won't be able to put the matter to rest until the question is answered. Because of the lack of morals needed to pursue a relationship with a married woman, the answer to that question tends to be "no", and the straying partner will be more motivated to work on the marriage after she learns that answer. Being a happier, stronger, more friendly version of yourself throughout ups the changes of that answer being "no". Being a clingy, whiny, over-controlling version of yourself drastically reduces the changes of that answer being "no".
Of course I haven't seen Nop's overall strategy, so I'm not sure how it compares, and I've never been in that position personally (knocks on desk that looks like wood and might even be wood...)
That's precisely my point. I'm failing to understand how long, slow, incrementalism works at least until BOTH spouses agree that the marriage is at risk, and are willing to roll up their sleeves and work side-by-side at it.
I want to know why the hell I shouldn't tell her/show her "Woman, you WILL lose me completely if you don't start showing me some effort here."
I feel like this putz, sitting on the sidelines, hoping she'll choose me. F$%# that. Until she knows that's a real risk, she is NEVER going to change, and that's the mistake I've made in between my 1st e-mail and my 2nd e-mail. I never should have sent the second e-mail!!! (The "I, for one, am still in love with you" one). My mistake has been not staying on offense, telling her "I don't know how I feel about YOU, either, and I'm not so sure I even want to stay here unless things change, and I see you making some effort, very soon. I think you will find now that I will JOIN you in that, but I will NOT do it on my own, Mrs. Choc."
But I feel like I'm playing her game now! Telling her "You look nice" (just that... nothing more... nothing needy/grabby, just a confident "you look nice"), or encouraging her when she brings up at dinner the other night that she wants to enter fitness competitions. Not only is it all one-sided (and I get ZERO from her), but she is getting what she needs from me (validation, encouragement, respect) AND she's getting god-knows-what-she-gets from OM, if she indeed didn't either end it or "back-burner" him yesterday!
You know, everyone keeps telling me how good I'm doing. The fact is, I'm not. I'm just really good at faking it.
Choc. Slow down. Breathe.
No none is suggesting your situation remain static. It won't. Somehow, somewhere, something will blow, and trust me, it won't be long now. You'll get your chance to say all of that. When it happens, you and she better be in marriage councelling, so you can have a professional mediate, for the sake of your children if not for your own. You made an appointment, yes?
Your wife is in lala land, and she's not going to snap out of it tomorrow. See it as a science experiment. Should be interesting.
You know, everyone keeps telling me how good I'm doing. The fact is, I'm not. I'm just really good at faking it.
It's not that you're unemotional that we admire, Choc. You're not, and you don't have to be. We admire that you're a
man, who finally stepped up and took control of his life. Do you realize how rare that is, in this vast ocean of people who only drift with the tide like seaweed? I've
buckets of admiration for you.
Choc.
You gave her "space" for years now. Look how well it has worked for you.
Now she has another man giving her all the attention that she has been wanting from you.
So, who does she choose, the guy feeding her all the attention, or the one demanding that she stop and accept the old standard. If you were her, which would be a more attractive option to you?
There is a time and a place to demand respect from her, but you haven't shown her that you are worth the effort yet.
For a time, at least a short time, you show her what she is potentially giving up (the good Choc), and her intact family.
After that, you confront with the choices. Doing it before you have established that you are the best and the right choice, will almost ensure that she makes the wrong decision.
-NOPkins-
That makes sense, NOP. I just hope I can keep the financial house together while I do it, or the whole thing is going to blow up in my face. Business is excellent; I just need some TIME, and I need to NOT BLOW IT in the meantime.
You know, everyone keeps telling me how good I'm doing. The fact is, I'm not. I'm just really good at faking it.Join the faking it crowd Choc.
You are doing the things well. Maybe the R isn't going well. Two different situations.
By doing the things well, you are doing the best you can. Your W is the other half of the R. What can you "make her do?"
So when is the MC appointment or interview? ASAP I hope. No delays from W because she doesn't think the time is right or she has to "fit it in." BTDT It didn't work for me, letting BB fit it in. Yea, I am a slow learner sometimes. Kick Lou here sign on my back, but hay I took off the sign.:( Get rid of your’s, Choc.
K?
Lou
Interesting you should ask, Lou, because she IS avoiding the first MC session, as I fully knew she would.
This exchange, within the past hour:
(read bottom to top). Again, ZERO effort on her part.
"OK, but we need to do it then. We can't do "Step 1" if we never start it."
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 2:59 PM
To: Eyes, Chocolate
Subject: RE: RE: MC appt.
"I think when u get back from chicago"
In Reply To Your Message
"What day/time would be better? I'll see if I can set it up. "
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 2:54 PM
To: Eyes, Chocolate
Subject: RE: MC appt.
"I have to work then"
In Reply To Your Message
"Mrs. Choc.,
Please let me know some days/time windows this week that work for you for a MC appointment, as I'd like to get the first one set up. I think
we need the "push." Would Thurs at either 9am or 11am work for you, in (nearby part of town)?
thanks.
Choc."
Nop,
There is a time and a place to demand respect from her, but you haven't shown her that you are worth the effort yet.
For a time, at least a short time, you show her what she is potentially giving up (the good Choc), and her intact family.
After that, you confront with the choices. Doing it before you have established that you are the best and the right choice, will almost ensure that she makes the wrong decision.
Now THIS is an aspect that I have really been wanting to see, good advice not so much because of the particulars but because you let us see the forest for the trees, the road map, the strategy. It was obviously comforting to Choc too, who seems to have been having a little anxiety from not knowing this game plan.
I would cancel the trip to Chicago. Complete gut feeling.
Corri
Cobra.
The game plan has been known to Choc. It has just not been posted on this forum for your perusal.
-NOPkins-
Cobra,
NOP's been extremely forthcoming with the game plan. I've just always been ready to receive it.
Choc.
I can't! It's my dad's 80th birthday, and I will NEVER forgive myself if I don't go. As it is, I've already disappointed him, and my mom, that I'm not bringing my wife and their four grandkids, because I couldn't afford it.
Choc,
Can you just bring the W and get someone to look in on the kids? Actually, your kids are old enough to stay by themselves. Right? I'm just thinking that leaving her to own devices is pretty risky right now but if you have to roll the dice you have to. You couldsay something to her before you leave like "Don't do anything I wouldn't do".
Karen
No. We can't afford the extra ticket, she's got work, and we've got baseball games and practices to get S10 to, and S14 to look after. Wouldn't work. It had to be either all 6 of us, or the 4 of us (me, W and two sons).
And I will definitely say something serious to her before I leave.
Thanks.
Choc.
Choc, stop saying you shoulda/coulda done something else. Everything you have done has been exactly what you needed to do at exactly the right time. This whole thing does NOT hinge on the timing of one email or one comment. Give yourself a break.
Choc, you CAN miss your dad's birthday. It IS an option. What if you were the dad and one of your married children needed to miss your birthday because he was needed at home? Surely your dad will understand? Can you go at another time, maybe a week or month later when ALL of you can go? I'm not saying you should skip the birthday, just saying you should consider it, make it a real option. Don't automatically slam the door on that option, for it IS a real option if you feel you are needed at home. OTOH, maybe going is the best thing for YOU. You have to do what is best for YOU. You can't be everywhere at once and be everything to everybody. Just think it through.
This is what to focus on: "For a time, at least a short time, you show her what she is potentially giving up (the good Choc), and her intact family."
How much do you need to get her there?
Corri
Lil Choc, you CAN miss your dad's birthday. It IS an option. What if you were the dad and one of your married children needed to miss your birthday because he was needed at home? Surely your dad will understand?
I am a dad to kids 35 & 37. If one of them were you Choc, I would want my son/daughter to stay home and take care of what is more important, the cohesiveness of a family with 4 kids. My 4 grandkids.
You see, it isn’t me that would be important; it is you and my (imaginary) grandkids that would be my priorities. I hope your dad isn’t that self centered he has to see you on one exact day.
Geez a couple of weeks, a month later, wouldn't lesson the value of my 80th birthday.
A view from my side of the situation.
Lou
Is it a big party or something of that nature, Choc?
Yes, a huge 80th party for him. I need to be there, and frankly, my family should have been there with me.
My wife keeps talking about "needing to make more money." Her part-time job as a certified personal trainer has netted her anywhere from $175 - $300/week, and until recently, while not crazy about the pay, she's been content with it.
She's been very distant since our lunch last week. The daily phone call, that we would always try to make, one of us to the other, isn't happening unless I initiate it, and even then, she seems to try and cut it short.
I think she is preparing herself. Remember, my original "bomb" e-mail said "I won't live in an affection-less marriage much longer." She does not feel like she has any affection for me anymore. So, she is preparing herself, mentally and financially, for me to no longer be with her.
As much as I tell her now that I'm willing to fight for this, I think she is pulling away, even faster and even more, than she's been emotionally pulling away for the past 5, 10, 15 years. Because she knows I've had it now.
I'm in "fight" mode; she seems to be in "flight" mode.
Is this what they call the "crucible?"
Choc,
Its gonna get worse before it can get better. She has to find her way out of the "fog", a difficult process.
I personally think you have a good chance of success. I think OM is pushing her hard. I think the fact that she is silent means she is in a really hard debate with herself. If her mind was made up, you'd probably be hearing more of the "space" talk. I think it is certain though that she is stewing big-time.
JMHO of course
Chrome
Chrome,
I do think that this OM is WAY more into her that she is into him. And I'm banking on him getting desperate during this time, and pushing her, and making some wrong moves.
Trust me, pressure does NOT work with my wife.
Choc.
I do think that this OM is WAY more into her that she is into him. And I'm banking on him getting desperate during this time, and pushing her, and making some wrong moves.
And that is good ... long term. For now though, some things may happen that are going to be really hard for you to swallow.
Trust me, pressure does NOT work with my wife.
It doesn't work with most people, at least not if you want someone to want to do something.
Chrome
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm about to enter the "Everything is Choc's Fault" phase.
I'm bracing for it.
I Will Not Go Quietly
Don Henley
Woke up with a heavy head
And I thought about leavin town
I could have died if I wanted to-
Slipped over the edge and drowned
But, oh no baby, I wont give up so easy
Too many tire tracks in the sands of time
Too many love affairs that stop on a dime
I think its time to make some changes round here
Yeah, Im gonna tear it up
Gonna trash it up
Im gonna round it up
Gonna shake it up
Oh, no, baby, I will not lie down
Im brave enough to be crazy
Im strong enough to be weak
I see all these heroes with feet of clay
Whose mighty ships have sprung a leak
And I want you to tell me darlin
Just what do you believe in now?
Well, cmon over here baby
You bout to gimme a heart attack
I wanna wrap my lovin arms
Around the small of your back
Yeah, and Im gonna pull you, pull you, pull you
Pull you right up close to me
Yeah were gonna tear it up
We gonna trash it up
Gonna round it up
Gonna shake it up
Oh, no no no, I will not lie down
Turn this thing around
I will not go quietly
I will not lie down
I will not go quietly
I will not lie down
I will not go quietly
I will not lie down
I will not lie down
Well, dont you ever get lonely?
Dont you ever get down?
Dont you ever get tired
Of all the wicked tongues in this town?
Of, baby, I just wanna take you away from here
I aint no tiger
I aint no little lamb
Suppose you tell me mama
Who do you think I think I am?
And ooh baby, dont you give a damn?
Yeah, Im gonna tear it up
Gonna trash it up
Gonna round it up
Gonna rip it up
I will not lie down
Yeah Im gonna tear it up
Gonna trash it up
Gonna round it up
Gonna shake it up
Oh baby I will not lie down
Turn this thing around
I will not go quietly
I will not lie down
I will no go quietly
I will not lie down
I will not lie down
"As much as I tell her now that I'm willing to fight for this, I think she is pulling away"
Well, yes. This is totally predictable. The more you pursue her, the more she will pull away. She will do whatever she has to in order to maintain a distance she is comfortable with.
Doing what would work for women posting to the SSM board who are interested in working on their Ms and SLs is not going to work for a woman, namely your W, who has more than a foot out the door. But, she doesn't have both feet, yet. She was searching for "troubled marriages" after all. If you would give her enough space to breathe, she might choose to really work on the M.
In the meantime, focus on yourself and being a happy, confident, successful person regardless of what W does. This is all you can do to help your M until W is truly invested in working on the M with you. If you become someone she wants to be with, perhaps she will choose to really work on the M.
Have you read DR yet? You are obsessively focused on OM. OM is the least of your problems. Confront W on the A or not. Whatever. Getting rid of OM is not going to solve your problems (though forcing the OM issue may increase them.) OM is not the source of your problems. Getting rid of him cannot solve them. Draw the line in the sand wherever you want to, but do it because of where you choose to set YOUR boundary, not because of how you think W will react.
Other than obsessing about OM, there is plenty that you can do now to work on your M and yourself, work that you will need to do to be in any R successfully, with W or someone else down the road.
Oldtimer,
Thanks for the thoughts, and I largely agree with you. Angst over OM is obviously the most gun-wrenching, and therefore what I post a lot about, but it's 0% of my focus with HER. ALL of my energies are being spent on "looking good, smelling good, being good." Being the kind of husband and just the kind of PERSON that someone would want to be around. Maintaining my sense of humor, ditching the anger and the poutiness and the grumpiness, and trying to be more FUN.
OM and my marriage are two separate problems, each to be dealt with separately and in their own time and manner.
Choc.
Journaling; thread may lock up soon anyway.
My wife seems so distant, so cold. She's irritable. I've been annoyed with her for seemingly not caring, or trying as hard (or in the manner) that I am, but today is the first day since our lunch convo at Olive Garden that I have felt some genuine compassion for her. I think that's good?
She must be horribly upset. She finally gets one part of her life going (her career) after 20 years out of the workforce, and is really feeling good about that, and then both of her daughters tell her they're moving out of the house, and she's staring a mini-empty-nest in the face with the three people she has invested the LEAST with, emotionally.
Especially her husband.
And now he drops THIS on her.
Still, it had to happen, I know.
Instead of drawing near, she is creating distance.
Instead of starting to work at it, she's preparing herself for if/when we are apart (the comments about "I need to make more money.")
I've noticed that she is making the boys do more for themselves (which, at 14 and 10, GOD KNOWS should have happened a long time ago, but she's NEVER done that!).
I think she's "sabotaging."
Although all of my focus has been on her, and HER focus is always on her, I think it has totally freaked her out that I would:
a) Confront her to begin with;
b) Tell her that I cannot live in an affection-less marriage much longer (we've had "The Talk" a half a dozen times in the 20+ years of our marriage, but I have NEVER stated it that way before... credit SSM!);
c) Tell her that I thought we needed to put a time limit on seeing some progress, and that my time limit was as short as "the summer";
d) That in the MIDST of all of that krap, that I would -- what -- restate my love for her? Is he serious??? He's THIS pissed, THIS sad, THIS done with the apathy and distance, but yet he ALSO recommits himself to me, to fighting for me, and now he's IN THIS FREAKING GOOD MOOD most of the time??? WTF????
I think I have thrown her off-center. And I think that's a GOOD thing.
Choc.
Choc. Shmagic from the other thread said The difference in my own situation this time is that I no longer have the FEAR of the end of my marriage. I want to stay with my H but I am no longer FRIGHTENED of it ending.
This sort of is how I feel. Maybe I don't have the fear Shmagic had. I think mine is more frustration and thinking I have to make this M work.
I think I can see what works and doesn't work better when I have this frame of mind that failing at this M, isn't the end of life.
I don't know I am doing the right thing. All I know the other way wasn't working and I was eating myself up.
Lou