. . . and certainly you ladies too. Not really a SEX question, but I'd love to get your perspective.
My wife recently reentered the workforce after 20 years, becoming a certified personal trainer at our local gym. She really enjoys the job, does very well, and has enjoyed the comraderie of having interests outside of the home and our four kids. She's been working out for the past two years, got a tummy-tuck last year, and has been aggressively training and dieting the past couple of months and is even considering entering fitness competitions down the road. She's 46, and has the body and the face of a fit, pretty 30 year old.
Once or twice, she's gone to lunch with co-workers from the gym (male and female), and told me last weekend that she'd been invited to go out for drinks last nite to celebrate one of the trainer's 21st birthday (with a group both male and female). We coordinated our schedules so I could get S14 and S10 to bed, she had D18 give her a ride there so she could catch a ride home and not have to drink and drive, and went out about 8:15 and told me "I won't be too late." I didn't mind her going out and having a good time, and honestly expected her to be home around midnight, as she has to get up about 5:45am to start the school rush out the door in the morning.
She came home at 2:05am, with no phone call to let me know she would be that late.
My question is, how should I have handled this? As the hour got later and later, I got angrier and angrier, not that she was out having a good time (I actually prefer that she has other interests now, and isn't so "needy" as she used to be), but that she didn't call. I couldn't figure out if I was angry at myself, or angry at her, but I felt like I was in a no-win situation. If I call her cell phone, I look like a needy, whiny little beotch, and if I don't, I look like an impotent, powerless little beotch.
She finally came home, said nothing (although I was in bed, and she may have been trying not to wake me), and acted like everything was totally normal this morning. I was quiet, but said nothing as well other than our usual perfunctory peck on each other's cheek when I leave for work.
Do I blow this off as her just getting out to blow off some steam and enjoy some time with friends, or should I be upset? I would NEVER come home two hours later than she expected ME from something, without calling. I sometimes go out for beers after my baseball league stuff, but the latest I've come home is 10 or 11, and even then, if it's going to be significantly later than what she was expecting, I call.
Thanks for listening.
Choc, I saw your post, and I don't have time for a decent reply, only to say, YES, you must confront this. It's the beginning of entitlement on her part, and you have to try to contain it, for your OWN self respect, as well as for the health of the marriage.
I'd ask her tonight if she had fun... maybe see if she wants to talk about her evening out... LISTEN.
And then I'd casually say... "the next time you go and you are going to be late, please call and let me know, so I don't worry." Don't buy the "I didn't want to wake you or the kids," reply. I am SURE that you fully expect your D18 to call if she is going to be late, regardless of what time it is or who might be asleep.
Other than that... my antannae would be seriously up, if I were you. Seriously up.
Corri
Geesh, my initial response was..."what is a 46 yr old woman doing at a bar celebrating a kids 21st birthday?"...and as Karen said below...why weren't you included?
I don't mean that to say that she shouldn't go out with friends/co-workers to do things....this one just seemed jeuvenile to me. Doing something like this occasionally isn't a problem...but she definitely should have called to let you know she was going to be late.
I think it's great that she's gotten in shape at 46 (working on it myself now at 40 again), but I have to wonder....she's got this great body now, she's hanging out with people younger than her (the people I've noticed that work at gyms tend to be young) and now she's gone out all night at a bar....hmmmmm. Makes me think of a female mid-life crisis of sorts LOL. May be nothing to do that at all though.
I would simply tell her than in the future, she needs to call if she's going to be late so that you don't worry. Now, if she starts doing this more often, that's another issue.
GEL
Thanks, Corri, I love your response, and -- trust me, it is. I have a keylogger on our home computer (cuz of the teens), and I get call detail on her cell phone, and her credit card statement comes to me, so I really don't think she's having an affair. I DO think she's trying to recapture her youth somehow, and she's showing some classic MLC symptoms, and you and I both know that we have relationship problems far beyond the lack of sex and no phone call last nite.
But yeah, my antennae are up.
Choc,
That is pure, unadulterated bad behavior on her part. Is there any reason she couldn't have included you in this outing? I look forward to hearing a reply from Nop, Cobra or Blackfoot on this one. I tell you what - I agree that I would be leery of what she is up to. Good for you though for not calling her cell - it would have looked bad and needy even if you were "technically" in the right.
I agree and disagree with Corri. I wouldn't listen to the story of the evening. I would just ask "Did you have a good time?" Then say, "Great, next time I would appreciate a call if you will be late. I was concerned."
Karen
Why wouldn't you listen to the story? He could ask for a call next time after he hears the story? Does listening to her story come across as condoning her late night or her lack of a call?
Hi Karen,
Yes, there were reasons I couldn't be included, although I am looking to see, moving forward, if she NEVER invites me into these plans, as I certainly invite her into my "baseball buddies" plans (lots of wives come sometimes). But last nite was a school night, me and S10 had a 6-8:30pm baseball game, and then I needed to get them to bed.
I'm definitely pissed. What I DON'T know, is it better if I just ignore it (because she's already shown, she HATES it when I don't get jealous) and not feed that beast, or is it better if I confront her with it.
I am thinking the simple "Hey, glad you had a good time, but next time I'd appreciate a phone call if you're going to be that late. I was concerned." is perfect.
Choc.
GEL,
You're dead-on on the age thing; everyone at the gym is in their 20s and early 30s, except for her boss, who is late 60s (and in phenomenal shape himself). So it's not like she's chosen this group of younger people, it's that EVERYONE there is younger.
But she IS definitely hung up on all things "age" related. We have a nice steak restaurant chain here, Stonewood Tavern & Grill, that we all like and even my D20 picked it as the place she wanted to have her 18th b-day dinner, but now my wife doesn't like to go there because "there are too many old people there." I'm like, WTF? what difference does that make?
Another wrinkle to this is that the guy who was turning 21 is a cop, doesn't actually work at the gym but is best friend's with my wife's trainer, and he is recently now dating my D18 (who obviously couldn't go last nite, but was invited, and she said "Oh great; what am I going to do, DRINK CHOCOLATE MILK??").
-- Choc., who wants to know what's wrong with chocolate milk?
I would mention it to her as you stated in your last post. Definitely don't just let it go. If nothing else, what she did is inconsiderate.
I too was thinking it sounds like classic MLC behavior. Given what you've posted in the past about her and about your R, I would pay very close attention to what she's doing. NOP did say a couple of months ago that she was a prime candidate for an A. Make sure she's getting plenty of attention from you, and not just from the young alpha males at the gym.
And you know, it just occurred to me that she could be "testing" you, perhaps unconsciously even, to see if you're paying attention. I remember your jealousy thread a couple of months ago. Definitely talk to her about it.
Ok...so she went to a birthday party for someone...who isn't even a co-worker and is in fact dating your daughter?
Sorry, that just sounds really wierd to me.
GEL
Choc,
I agree with the concerns everyone is stating here. It does sound a lot like she is in an MLC type situation. IT could also be that she is pushing harder and harder to get a rise out of you, to see how much you care for her, how much it will take to get you to show some jealousy and possessiveness. I wonder if she didn’t come home until late because as she was having a good time and the thought crossed her mind on whether to call or not, she just rationalized it away by thinking Choc won’t care anyway, so what’s the purpose in calling? Your non-reaction when she got home pretty well confirmed that, IMO. I think she could see that she now has an open license to stay out as late as she wants, whenever she wants. You are shooting yourself in the foot by your passivity.
One important way to look at this is to ask yourself how she would react if you did the same. Would she get upset? Would she confront you? Or would she just avoid it as you have? Your calling when you stay out later than expected is you answering to her, asking “permission” in a way, giving her authority to control the M, you abdicating control. So she runs with this power, and you get mad when she doesn’t return the favor. Why should she? What does she have to fear? Why should she not push for more? She just might get it. You will let her have it.
IMO, this has little to do with her. This has more to do with you and you stating and holding to firm boundaries. She cannot push you if you don’t let her. I also suspect she wants you to do this. How else is she to know that you care for her? Words are just words. Stand up and take some action. Show some jealousy. Let her know how you feel. Ask her flat out if she is chasing younger men. Throw something outlandish in her face to make her step back and take notice of her behavior. Make her think twice and become a little hesitant before she acts so that she feels she should come to you for “permission.”
GEL,
The invitation came from the co-workers. They all hang out together, and it was as "Hey, Mrs. Choc., come out with us on Wednesday for Joe's 21st, it'll be fun." kinda thing.
I do think it put my D18 in a weird spot, tho, but if a F18 dates a M21, there's going to be a few age-related weird spots, and she'd best get used to it.
Choc.
Cobra,
But what if I don't care? Is your advice still the same, so that I can feel better about myself?
I honestly have zero romantic attraction to her anymore. She inconvenienced me last nite, as it was difficult to sleep until I knew she was home safe, so that plus the lack of respect by no-phone-call pissed me off. But I did not care one whit about how she feels about any of these other, younger guys.
I'm not saying that's right or wrong, or even healthy, but it's just how I feel.
thanks,
Choc.
As long as you are cool with that.
Choc,
She inconvenienced me last nite, as it was difficult to sleep until I knew she was home safe, so that plus the lack of respect by no-phone-call pissed me off.
Would you lose sleep if your best baseball buddy said he would call to let you know he got home safe from some trip or outing, then didn’t call? Would you be pissed over that? What if it where your mom, or dad? Would you still feel the same?
I honestly have zero romantic attraction to her anymore.
Your emotional response does not square with this statement. If you truly do not care, then I don’t understand your reaction. People do not get pissed or lose sleep over these types of respect issues. No if it is some type of battle over pride, ego, or something like that at the office, I can understand, but even then the emotional reaction is different.
I think you are detaching from your emotions. You need to ask yourself if this is true, and if so, why are you doing that. It sounds very passive aggressive and victim-like to say you don’t care for your W, then get upset if she doesn’t show concern for you.
Are you sure you wouldn’t LIKE to care for her, if she would only first show some concern for you?
I think she just didn't want to deal with conflict on the phone or feel self-conscious in the middle of all the "fun" having to call the "family" since they are most likely all single and not in a situation like that at all.
It is POSSIBLE that the event in itself was the only thing and she was "guilty" of. And this may have given her additional rationalization that she "shouldn't HAVE to call" since she wasn't doing anything "wrong." But that's silly. I agree, it was inconsiderate at best. I think you have a good feel for the best way to handle it.
Be careful though, when you say, "Did you have a good time?" TRY REALLY HARD not to sound sarcastic. My H worked late one night recently when a tattoo show filmed a pilot episode at his work. He DID call, but I was still peeved that he was home HOURS later than he originally predicted and NEVER said he was sorry, just came in and acted like no big deal, man, what a long day. I said, "Did you have fun?" and he blew up, "NO! I didn't have fun - it was WORK!!" Hmph. Whatever. lol!
GOod luck, keep us updated.
Hi, Choc.
I bet you can't wait to hear from me.
I have read THOUSANDS of affair stories now. Not a few, not hundreds, but thousands. You would not believe the gross similarities between them. The stories are in the thousands, the themes could all fit on a couple of pages they are so common.
You already know what I think from previous posts. I will add to it a bit.
Expect your wife to want you to cosign or outright buy her a sporty car soon.
I hope you know what a MILF is, because that's what the younger guys are already calling her down at the gym.
So let me ask one question. Are you wanting the divorce (that is at present, inevitable) to be all her fault? She has the affair with the young guy, (insert typical older woman younger guy scenario here), then proceeds to financially rape you in the settlement. Is that the way you want it to come down so that your sense of guilt is aleviated? At least she has a job now, that will help a miniscule amount in the settlement.
Oh, and I would be especially suspicious of the 21 year old "boy friend" if I were you.
I have watched you sit idly by losing ground watching as events signaling worsening of your relationship go by with little more than a blip on your relationship radar.
I hope you don't mind sharing your wife, and at this point in the train wreck of your relationship, I think that you are making a serious mistake having unprotected sex with your wife if you two are having sex at all.
I will tell you one last time what you need to do, then I am butting out of your life.
MAN-UP and take back your life and wife.
If by some chance, you want help to do so, you better decide quickly. If she has not already spread her legs for another man, it is simply a matter of days before she does.
All the best,
-NOPkins-
"If by some chance, you want help to do so, you better decide quickly. If she has not already spread her legs for another man, it is simply a matter of days before she does."
I think this is jumping the gun a bit here. Choc just say something to her
your idea sounded good.
I think she just didn't want to deal with conflict on the phone or feel self-conscious in the middle of all the "fun" having to call the "family" since they are most likely all single and not in a situation like that at all.
zuzu,
That could very well be it (my D20 has expressed similar complaints when we'd get on her about not calling us), as she was not driving. Had she been, I fully suspect she would have at least called me from the car on her way home, if for no other reason than to try to diffuse the situation (we are both classic conflict avoiders -- yeah, I know -- big shocker there), but that still would have been very late -- probably 1:45 instead of 2:05.
I'm not going to ask her if she had a good time. I'm going to say "I don't mind you going out with your friends from time to time, but I'd appreciate a phone call next time if you're going to be that late. I was concerned." And leave it at that.
Choc.
Choc I did not care one whit about how she feels about any of these other, younger guys.
I'm not saying that's right or wrong, or even healthy, but it's just how I feel.
I read you do care but something is blocking you to do anything about it. Conflict avoiding? Fear of rejection? It’s been bad for so long, why bother now? Something else?
Choc, I see she might have been holding out on you and now you are holding out on her.
I also relate to what NOP said, wanting her to be the bad guy or you not being the bad guy (it's her fault mentality.
With my R, I lose interest because of the lack of progress or when progress only happens due to conflicts. Sometimes I see myself heading down a road similar to yours.
I also think when you don't want a sexual R with your W, in some ways it is depriving her of some form of validation and other things she needs. Maybe she appears not to want a physical R with you or anyone, but I wonder if that mode of operation is causing her long-term problems?
Women that like to be chased but not caught. Is that your W on the outside, but different internally?
BB likes me chasing her but has problems when I catch her.. Once in a while she openly likes being caught. When I don't chase BB, she isn't happy. Are Mrs. choc and BB similar? I don't know.
I can't help but think Mrs. Choc likes to be chased and maybe some day someone is going to catch her. Then what are you going to do?
If someone had a magic wand where there were no problems afterwards, what would you like?
1. No wife?
2. A composite W consisting of traits something similar to Karen, GEL, someone else HD?
3. Keep things as they are?
4. A W with a lover, but not you?
5. An asexual R?
6. Your ideas?
While I see NOP’s ideas a bit drastic for now, due to my lack of knowledge in this area,, he has some insights that can quickly become reality.
One of his ideas I do relate to and that is not wanting to be the bad guy.
Just my thoughts Choc. I only wish you well and Mrs. Choc well. I can imagine you are both hurting.
Lou
Mom
I'd
Like to
Fcuk
a 30, 40, 50-something woman/mother who is still a real "hottie".
(you know...like my W.
)
Hi Cobra,
Here's my answers to your questions:
Would you lose sleep if your best baseball buddy said he would call to let you know he got home safe from some trip or outing, then didn’t call? Would you be pissed over that? What if it where your mom, or dad? Would you still feel the same?
"No" on the baseball buddy, "Yes" on my mom or dad. On my worst day, I still care deeply about my wife's well-being, so yes, I was concerned about her.
I honestly have zero romantic attraction to her anymore.
Your emotional response does not square with this statement. If you truly do not care, then I don’t understand your reaction. People do not get pissed or lose sleep over these types of respect issues. No if it is some type of battle over pride, ego, or something like that at the office, I can understand, but even then the emotional reaction is different.
I think you are detaching from your emotions. You need to ask yourself if this is true, and if so, why are you doing that. It sounds very passive aggressive and victim-like to say you don’t care for your W, then get upset if she doesn’t show concern for you.
Are you sure you wouldn’t LIKE to care for her, if she would only first show some concern for you?
Yes, that would be my first preference -- to feel more of a romantic attachment to my wife, but as you say, the resentment has built up so much that I would only feel that way again if she would first show some concern for my feelings, and the damage her rejection has done to this relationship.
Finally, I'm not seeing where my statement doesn't square. I have no romantic attachment to my dog, but I still get pissed off when he runs off and I get worried that I don't know where he is. I don't have a romantic attachment to my assistant at work, but I respect her, and care deeply about her and he family's well-being. I do understand what you're asking, and while I was laying there in bed last nite waiting for her to call/come home, I did have several "gut-check" moments where I asked myself "Why am I feeling this way? WHAT is it that I'm feeling??"
And all I could come up with, was
"pissed" and
"worried." Not "jealous" or "lonely."
Cobra,
I honestly have zero romantic attraction to her anymore.
Your emotional response does not square with this statement. If you truly do not care, then I don’t understand your reaction.
Not having romantic attraction for someone and not caring for them are two different things. So his concern for her well-being definitely makes sense to me.
I too would worry about my parents, my brother, my closest friends if I lived with them and knew they were out at a bar...and I was home waiting to hear if that door closed so I knew they got home safely. I think there is at the very least some type of bond that happens with many people with they co-habitate that would elicit worry in a situation like that.
GEL
You have no romantic attachment to your wife. Does she know this?
I know you've had it out with her before and gotten temporary results. You may have to do it again and again and again to keep the connection alive. Who cares if you should have to or not? It's either that, live with a roommate-wife, or divorce.
What can make her "get it" for good? Who knows. People get it when they're good and ready, and not before. I don't know of a good way to speed it up, other than to force them to see the results of not getting it... i.e., bring to their attention that your romantic feelings are GONE and you have no reason other than concern your remaining underage children to stick around.
That will bring them knowledge AND respect for you, which can help alter their perspective.
This strikes me as pretty straightforward. WARNING, blunt unedited post ahead...
Yes, address it. Otherwise, your anger sneaking out in petty little ways will only serve to poison your R.
As for me, this really wouldn't work for me, [my projected reaction]: "I don't mind you going out with your friends from time to time [OH GEE, THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH, HOW BIG OF YOU], but I'd appreciate a phone call next time...[SNARKY, YET WHINY]"
An alpha male addresses this matter directly without any P/A crap.
First, an alpha male CALLS LAST NIGHT: "W, I was getting worried about you, are you OK? Safe from physical danger and young boys hitting on you? Do I need to drop off your chastity belt or fight off any dragons for you? Let me know and your knight and sleeping kids will be on their way."
Notice that the first response is direct, sweet, fun, and confidant.
Second, an alpha male is HONEST WITH HIMSELF: you were so "angry" because you were SCARED, either about her safety, her cheating, or both. You beligerant unfocused rage and the whole "I been dissed" attitude is not attractive. Really, really not attractive. I HATE the whole faux macho don't-diss-me BS. Get clear with yourself about your own feelings and report them accurately.
Third, an alpha male addresses the matter directly today if he missed the boat last night: "W, really hope you had a good time out on the town last night. It is great you are having such a good time with your new job. I gotta tell you, though, I was pretty angry last night when you were out so late and I didn't hear from you. The truth is, the anger was because I was scared you weren't safe or had fallen into someone else's arms. It really wasn't working for me. From now on, please check in by 11:00 and keep in touch. TMing always works if you are worried about waking everyone. And, I'll own my own part in this, and promise to call you too if I feel a need to touch base."
NOP,
I always enjoy hearing from you. I don't always agree with you, and -- to your frustration -- rarely even act on the things that I DO agree with, but I always enjoy hearing your perspective.
These are my thoughts/answers to you:
I have read THOUSANDS of affair stories now. Not a few, not hundreds, but thousands. You would not believe the gross similarities between them. The stories are in the thousands, the themes could all fit on a couple of pages they are so common.
I have zero doubts that that is true.
Expect your wife to want you to cosign or outright buy her a sporty car soon.
Good call, albeit a bit late. I got her a BMW 530i two years ago -- the love of her life, after our children, our cat and somewhere ahead of me.
I hope you know what a MILF is, because that's what the younger guys are already calling her down at the gym.
Yes, I do know what that means, and yes, she has been called that, as she LOVES to point out to me. She's very fond of letting me -- usually in front of our daughters -- know about other men who find her attractive. Like I've said frequently on here, "She DOES want to be thought to be sex-Y, and she even wants ME to find her sex-Y. She just doesn't want to have any ACTUAL SEX with me."
So let me ask one question. Are you wanting the divorce (that is at present, inevitable) to be all her fault? She has the affair with the young guy, (insert typical older woman younger guy scenario here), then proceeds to financially rape you in the settlement. Is that the way you want it to come down so that your sense of guilt is aleviated? At least she has a job now, that will help a miniscule amount in the settlement.
I'm not sure I follow you. If she fools around on ME with a younger guy (I know, ladies, it's a double-standard, but it DOES sound more tawdry than when a guy does the same thing), how would that make ME look worse in a judge's eyes? In any event, I do admit that I sometimes conduct myself (avoiding an affair myself, not caring as much as I should about dipping into our savings) as if a divorce is in our future.
I hope you don't mind sharing your wife, and at this point in the train wreck of your relationship, I think that you are making a serious mistake having unprotected sex with your wife if you two are having sex at all.
NOP, I haven't had sex with my wife in over 3 years, so that's not a problem.
I will tell you one last time what you need to do, then I am butting out of your life.
I can understand your frustration with me, but I did not come on here this morning to ask "My marriage and my sex life is horrible; what can I do???" Specifically because I DON'T want to come across like CeMar, who asks for relationship advice and then doesn't follow it. I hate it when people do that to ME. I came on here to find out how I should have responded -- literally, WHAT WORDS I SHOULD HAVE SAID -- to my wife last nite.
Still, with that all being said, I do appreciate your unique perspective, and I am proceeding with EVERYTHING with the understanding that I'm taking a risk that my wife could have an affair. But that's HER choice, not mine. She has known for a long time what my needs are, and has chosen to ignore them. She's gone so far as to tell me why she does this (push me away), that she wishes she WASN'T like this, and that she promises not to BE like this, ever again.
Then she does it.
I just need to figure out a way to leave her Choice to her, but to still feel OK about my own integrity in the process.
Choc.
This is just a little too weird for my liking. The guy doesn't even work there, he's going out with your D, and your W gets invited? Sorry - I don't buy it. I get invited out ALL the time with my students. Do I go? NO !!!! Why? Because I could be their mother that's why. It's too weird and its too risky - plain and simple
As for "did you have a good time, I would appreciate a call next time, I was worried" - is a VERY good line
Just my two cents...
There is a big difference to going out with one's coworkers who are PEERS and going out with one's students. One has power over one's students that one doesn't have over one's peers. There are concerns about fairness, sexual harrassment, and so on.
I might be crazy, but it doesn't seem weird at all for W to want to go out with the gang for a night on the town. Only ONE GUY was 21. There were also people in their later 20s, 30s etc...
Lou,
Thank you for your post, and yes, BB and Mrs. Choc. are a
LOT alike, and I've thought so for along time, as I've always followed your sitch (and I think we've even discussed this before).
These "copy the quote, and then reply" paste jobs are hard, esp. while I'm at work, but your post is SO dead-on, I need to:
I read you do care but something is blocking you to do anything about it. Conflict avoiding? Fear of rejection? It’s been bad for so long, why bother now? Something else?
I do care about her, but just not in a romantic way anymore. Even on the rare occasions where I still find her body sexually attractive (and trust me, it looks PHENOMENAL right now), it's more of a lustful feeling than an "agape" love that a man ought to have for his wife. I think it is a "I will not let myself get hurt again" defense mechanism on my part, tho.
Choc, I see she might have been holding out on you and now you are holding out on her.
.
I also relate to what NOP said, wanting her to be the bad guy or you not being the bad guy (it's her fault mentality.)
"Yep" again.
With my R, I lose interest because of the lack of progress or when progress only happens due to conflicts. Sometimes I see myself heading down a road similar to yours.
I most definitely get despondent -- and defeatist -- over what I see on this Board (and others) in that 98% of the relationship improvements only come from the following two categories:
1. Both spouses agree there is a problem, and agree to work on it, together;
2. Fed-up spouse threatens other spouse with divorce, separation or some other nasty, woolly thing that goes "bump" in the night, and even then, the positive response only lasts so long as the fed-up spouse keeps up the threat of the nasty woolly thing. I also think when you don't want a sexual R with your W, in some ways it is depriving her of some form of validation and other things she needs. Maybe she appears not to want a physical R with you or anyone, but I wonder if that mode of operation is causing her long-term problems?
I definitely think this is true, and I think now it's coming home to roost in her psyche. She needs to have her physical beauty validated, and since she no longer gets that from me, she's seeking it elsewhere. Because (at least so far), her personal value system hasn't allowed her to commit adultery, she's not gotten it ANYWHERE, and I think that's killing her. And the sad, twisted thing is, I'm glad that it's killing her. I know that just sounds HORRIBLE, but it's true.
Women that like to be chased but not caught. Is that your W on the outside, but different internally?
BB likes me chasing her but has problems when I catch her.. Once in a while she openly likes being caught. When I don't chase BB, she isn't happy. Are Mrs. choc and BB similar? I don't know.
I can't help but think Mrs. Choc likes to be chased and maybe some day someone is going to catch her. Then what are you going to do?
Let him catch her. Or -- more accurately -- tell her something like "I love you, and I still think God put us together for a reason, and that we had something special. So don't misunderstand me -- I'd like you to stay with me. But I will not beg for that, and I will not even allow you to choose that if it means that we remain in the sexless, affectionless marriage that we've been in for most of the past 20 years."
If someone had a magic wand where there were no problems afterwards, what would you like?
1. No wife?
2. A composite W consisting of traits something similar to Karen, GEL, someone else HD?
3. Keep things as they are?
4. A W with a lover, but not you?
5. An asexual R?
6. Your ideas?
Man, what an interesting, intriguing question. Hmmmm. "5" is pretty much what I'm living in now (therefore also making it "3"), so no, I wouldn't wish that on ANYBODY, much less choose it as my "magic wand" scenario.
I don't understand #4? But I guess I'd have to say that:
a) I am a sexual man, with "physical touch" extremely high on my list of LLs;
b) I've come to the realization that my wife for the past 20 years is probably more like the "true" Mrs. Choc. than the what the first 2 years were;
c) I like being married -- I like that lifestyle of a wife and children;
So I would choose "I would like to get married, but to someone who is more compatible with me in the affection and sex department."
Do I get to keep my same kids tho? Cuz just doing that little thought process there just now just made me EXTREMELY sad.
Because even tho she has been my heartache and my frustration, she has still given me the four loves of my life.
Just my thoughts Choc. I only wish you well and Mrs. Choc well. I can imagine you are both hurting.
I'm quite sure that she is, Lou.
Yeah, what SHE said!
Eddie,
I really didn't want to get into all this today, but out of courtesy, I'll answer your questions, and I do appreciate your reply:
You have no romantic attachment to your wife. Does she know this?
Good god, how could she
NOT? We haven't ML in over 3 years, we've ML only maybe twice in 5 years, and I haven't initiated in those same 3 years nor even told her that I miss it. That may be right or wrong (and most of you have told me that I'm nuts, I understand), but
there's no way on God's green earth that she could not know that I've lost my sexual feelings for her. I know you've had it out with her before and gotten temporary results. You may have to do it again and again and again to keep the connection alive.
In fact, my refusal to do just that pretty much sums up my overall philosophy on this Board and on this whole topic for the past four years. I will not beg for something that the one who supposedly loves me, and has forsaken all others for, knows that I both want and need, knows that she has ripped my heart out about before, and yet still chooses to reject me.
What can make her "get it" for good? Who knows. People get it when they're good and ready, and not before. I don't know of a good way to speed it up, other than to force them to see the results of not getting it... i.e., bring to their attention that your romantic feelings are GONE and you have no reason other than concern your remaining underage children to stick around.
My wife is a smart, intuitive woman, and I know with every fiber of my being that she knows. If she asks me, I will tell her, but I'm not going to bring it up again. Maybe that's a stupid place to draw the line, but that's where I have drawn it.
Choc.
Heywyre,
So what's my wife supposed to do, for it not to be "weird," turn down every social invitation from her 20- and 30-something co-workers? She's already turned down about the first DOZEN of them; the lunch and the b-day drinks last nite were the first things she finally said "yes" to. Her boss -- the supervisor of all of the CPTs -- is in his late sixties. The male group invited him to Disney's "Islands of Adventure" in Orlando next week -- just the guys -- and the old guy is going, I give him credit!
You guys are focused on the wrong guy. The 21yo isn't the threat, in my opinion. There is a trainer there who my wife has seemed physically attracted to, and then there's a front-desk guy who's not the physical specimen that the trainer is, but is a sensitive guy who's paid special attention in taking over my wife's diet and training regimen. She talks about him often. It's THIS guy -- followed by the big guy -- that I'm watching, NOT the 21yo that's dating D18.
btw, my keylogger caught the following from my wife about two weeks ago:
"OLDER WOMAN-YOUNGER-MAN RELATIONSHIPS"
These are all co-workers/peers, and some friends of same.
Yes, that's what I thought. That's why I thought it wasn't weird. It doesn't seem weird to me when I go out with a group of colleagues from their early 20s to 70s.
But, I get NOTHING from you on what an alpha male says when I gave you such a direct response to your initial query?
Hmmppphhh
You're dead-on on the age thing; everyone at the gym is in their 20s and early 30s, except for her boss, who is late 60s (and in phenomenal shape himself). So it's not like she's chosen this group of younger people, it's that EVERYONE there is younger.
She purposely chose that "group of younger people" when she set her hat to take a position at this gym.
MrsNOP -
But, I get NOTHING from you on what an alpha male says when I gave you such a direct response to your initial query?
An alpha male would have addressed this situation well before it got to this point, IMO.
MrsNOP -
I've just read your thread, however, I don't have all the background before that, but I was just curious as to when was the last time you tried to talk to your W about your sitch (obviously prior to the 3 yr mark, but when before that and how many times)?
The only reason I ask is you kind of categorized (and maybe I'm wierd) but it only took 1 D bomb and I now have a note on my computer that says "NEVER FORGET." I do not ever want to have to go through that again -- I love my H so very much and am willing to do all I can to save my M, which I believe I have successfully done (and this did include becoming HD v. pretty much LD and now I love it).
But my point is that often times we get back into the rut and that's when we need to remember the lessons learned and remember that it takes effort. Anyway, I'm just wondering what would happen if you did decide to talk to your W again? Even if you said to yourself "Self, just one more time and that's it." Maybe that's what she is waiting for. Maybe you both are just being stubborn and wasting time that you will never be able to get back. Maybe I'm way off base.
Sorry, oldtimer, I hadn't gotten to that yet, and I'm trying to squeeze these in between a hectic deadline that I'm under at work.
I guess that's why I'm not an alpha male, cuz I just CANNOT see myself saying ANY of those things. The tone that I'm trying to capture here is, something that's neither needy/whiny/grabby/beotchy, nor witty/charming/flirty/chivalrous.
I'm looking for help to confidently establish boundaries; not woo and charm her when she's misbehavin.'
Choc.
Mrs. Nop,
I agree. I was talking to CE about my post to him above about what an alphas male would say that I think he may have missed...
Second, an alpha male is HONEST WITH HIMSELF: you were so "angry" because you were SCARED, either about her safety, her cheating, or both. You beligerant unfocused rage and the whole "I been dissed" attitude is not attractive. Really, really not attractive. I HATE the whole faux macho don't-diss-me BS. Get clear with yourself about your own feelings and report them accurately.
Oldtimer,
I reall don't think that was it. The best word I can think of for the way I felt last night was "impotent." Powerless. And like a FAILURE.
OK, that's three words, but "scared" wasn't one of them. I just felt powerless over the situation, and not knowing how to handle it.
MrsNOP,
Hi; thanks for replying to my thread.
My wife chose this position because, when her trainer (the late-60s guy) got promoted to be supervisor of all of the trainers, he told my wife "Hey, let me know when you've got that certification, because I was talking to Annie (his boss) about you, and we both agreed that you'd be great at this. But don't take too long to get it, because we can't wait forever."
She was flattered, the place is convenient (by far the closest gym to our house, and our kids' school), and after having been out of the workforce for 20 years, she frankly didn't feel like she was playing with a whole lot of chips, kwim.
But I'm quibbling with you, because I think she chose to WORK OUT AT this gym -- and hang out with these people -- in large part because of the youthful way it makes her feel. She definitely enjoys the "hot mom" role, and the attention she receives.
Choc.
CE,
If you don't want to charm, just cut off the charming bits. The direct message remains the same.
If you felt impotent, what exactly did you want to control that you felt you couldn't?
Why would you want to control it?
Ah, maybe you were HURT: "W, I was really pissed off last night. I think the anger was masking feeling hurt. I felt like I didn't matter to you when you didn't let me know you would be late last night. It made me feel like a failure as a husband who is powerless to change things. It really sucked."
Is that closer?
The point is to find out what is really under the anger and communicate that directly, unapologetically. You aren't going to be expending all this energy simply because someone was a bit rude to you. SOMETHING else is going on. What is it??
Hi Cadesmom,
You just answered your own question when you said:
The only reason I ask is you kind of categorized (and maybe I'm wierd) but it only took 1 D bomb and I now have a note on my computer that says "NEVER FORGET." I do not ever want to have to go through that again -- I love my H so very much and am willing to do all I can to save my M
That has been my same debate, over and over again with everyone on here, for the past several years --
that when you love someone, you're told of their intense pain and have seen it up-close, and you've PROMISED that it (intentionally turning away, and becoming affection-less) wouldn't happen again, you DON'T just blow that off if you truly love the person, and care about them, and can continue to see signs of their pain daily. Anyway, I'm just wondering what would happen if you did decide to talk to your W again? Even if you said to yourself "Self, just one more time and that's it."
That
is what I told myself . . . the
last time. That
WAS the "one more time."
To answer your question, we had "The Talk" about 12-15 times, I suppose, over the years 3 thru 17 or so of our marriage. The final time was three or four years ago when I broke down in front of her, laid everything out on the table, and threatened to leave her if things didn't change. Long story short, she had this big "epiphany" moment, shared with me why she did what she did, and swore that "the old Mrs. Choc." would never, EVER return. And for about 60 days, we enjoyed bliss like I haven't experience since we were newlyweds, and I DON'T just mean sex. Kisses. Touching. Gentuine affection. Back scratches. Making my favorite meal. Respecting and praising me verbally in front of others.
It was glorious, and I even told her at the time that if it ever "wore off" again to the extent that it had (I'm not talking about a mere "bad day"; we all have those . . I'm talking about the total rejection and lack of affection, if THAT ever returned, that I would NOT beg for her affection, and that the love life would basically be over.
It did, and it is.
Anyway, I hope that answers. I find myself wanting to reply to everyone's questions, to not be rude, but I really just wanted to know what to say to my wife today.
thanks,
Choc.
Ah, maybe you were HURT: "W, I was really pissed off last night. I think the anger was masking feeling hurt. I felt like I didn't matter to you when you didn't let me know you would be late last night. It made me feel like a failure as a husband who is powerless to change things. It really sucked."
I guess I don't want to give her that satisfaction.
The point is to find out what is really under the anger and communicate that directly, unapologetically. You aren't going to be expending all this energy simply because someone was a bit rude to you. SOMETHING else is going on. What is it??
I'm not sure. I am under a tremendous amount of financial stress lately, and I guess maybe I'm just feeling like a total failure in so many areas of my life simultaneously. I was honestly trying to soul-search my true feelings last night, to find out what it was that was bothering me so much (because, to be honest, I WASN'T all that "worried" -- she was with a group I know, I knew where they were, it was nearby, she had a COP with her for crissakes, and she wasn't driving).
I think I just felt like a sap. And I CANNOT STAND feeling like a sap.
Choc,
If nothing else, you can always just say: "W, that was really sh*tty of you to stay out so late without touching base. I deserve more respect than that."
Whatever.
Just be honest with yourself and her, and don't try to manage or manipulate her.
Get it out and be done.
Choc,
What’s your point with this thread? You say you wanted ideas on what you should have said to your W last night. You deny having any feelings for her. You seem to care less whether some other man makes a move on her. You admit to feeling sad if you were to D and your W get custody of the kids and you get visitation. Then you say your W “knows that she has ripped my heart out about before, and yet still chooses to reject me.”
You are all over the map! The only one who doesn’t seem to see this is you. To me, it seems clear that you very much want to have a relationship with your W but your anger, resentment and ego prevent you from taking the necessary steps. Because you have been hurt, you seem to think she somehow “owes” it to you to repair the M, out of some sense of entitlement over the marriage vows. It seems to me she threw those out the window long ago, and because of your wimpy P/A, victim-like approach, I think she had good reason to do just that.
Do you really hear how you come across? That BS idea you had about what to say to her regarding last night is nothing more than self protection. You shroud it in a statement of concern for her safety, but she will see right through that. What is your reason for being concerned? How will she hear it? That you are concerned about her drinking and driving, or getting into some other trouble because you don’t to be bothered by a call to the emergency room, or police station? Won’t this sound to her like you are more concerned about YOU than her?
If you want her to hear your concern, then you will have to be brave enough to say it. Tell her you are angry that she does not love you anymore, that you are jealous she is seeking the attention of younger men over you, that you feel she is abandoning you, that you are concerned you will lose her. These things are the truth, best as I can read your sitch. All else is self protective deflection.
You’ve been feeding her that stuff for too long, so she has decided to take it at face value. Now you are coming face to face with the consequences of trying to make her believe that you don’t care – she no longer cares. Your self-fulfilling prophecy has come true. Either accept the future you have crafted (not to excuse her role in this) or take action to turn things around and make the future you want, rather than sit around hoping she will see your pain and take pity on you.
Those other guys at the gym aren’t showing one ounce of pity. They have their own issues too (lack of self confidence, lack of brains, lack of education, etc., etc., etc.), but on the surface, the surface your W is focusing on, they are assertive go-getters trying to get the most from life they can. If you don’t drop the P/A avoidance, you will pale in comparison to them (on the surface) and you will lose your W, and your kids (except for visitation rights) and your home, and half of everything else. By this I don’t mean you need to be a body builder or an aggressive, dominating alpha male. That is NOT what it takes to show your W you care. You have to tackle this head on and be direct. Confront your W and all your issues openly and honestly and stop hiding. Express your emotions. That is assertiveness. That is power. That is alpha.
"I guess I don't want to give her that satisfaction."
Great, so instead you give her the power over you to make you feel like a sap. That works. Not.
Being honest and direct is EMPOWERING. If it makes her happy that you were hurt, TOO BAD FOR HER. WTF cares???
I don't think you need your W to F around on you, or even to F you. You seem to be in a mode of trying to control things that you can't control by being so withholding that you are Fing YOURSELF.
Book recommendation to help YOU in your life and job: "Conquer your critical inner voice" by Firestone.
And, R-wise, ditto Cobra...
Choc,
It was glorious, and I even told her at the time that if it ever "wore off" again to the extent that it had (I'm not talking about a mere "bad day"; we all have those . . I'm talking about the total rejection and lack of affection, if THAT ever returned, that I would NOT beg for her affection, and that the love life would basically be over.
It did, and it is.
JEEEEZ!!! You've got me riled up now. What kind of message is this???? What do you think she got out of that? Do you think she might have heard that Choc will give her the attention and adoration she needs only as long as she keeps of the “glorious” attention on him. As soon as that attention drops off, Choc does not care about her. That is conditional and controlling and there is no way she will see that as indication of your true love to her. You are saying one thing then doing another. Then you complain when she does the same thing back to you.
This is all a power struggle, each trying to get the other person to validate feelings and prove their love without each of you having to become vulnerable first. You test her, she test you. You both fail and go into P/A entitlement thinking. There can not be a positive outcome with this destructive cycle. You’ve seen that play out on the board too many times.
I was honestly trying to soul-search my true feelings last night, to find out what it was that was bothering me so much (because, to be honest, I WASN'T all that "worried" -- she was with a group I know, I knew where they were, it was nearby, she had a COP with her for crissakes, and she wasn't driving).
I think I just felt like a sap. And I CANNOT STAND feeling like a sap.
Yep. You see why I said your emotional reaction did not square with your “concern for her safety?” So how are you going to get past this, not just with her but any other woman for that matter? This is NOT about a woman. This is about you. This is about Choc standing up for himself, deciding what Choc wants, then setting out to achieve that want and protecting it from others once you do get it.
You might start by asking yourself why it is you feel so powerless and why you don’t act to empower yourself? Who made you feel powerless?
Cobra,
WTF??
What do I want? Re-read my thread, from the beginning. All I wanted was advice on what to say to my wife about what happened last nite, and later on I expanded that to include some general tone that I'm searching for that's neither needy/grabby/beotchy nor trying to be charming.
Everything else I said was in response to a direct question from another poster, so as not to be CeMarish-rude.
As for your characterizations of her male friends at the gym, I think you're way out of line. Why do you assume that they are neither confident, smart nor having a good education?
Choc.
Oldtimer,
Thanks for the book recommendation.
Choc.
Choc
I don't understand #4? But I guess I'd have to say that You don’t understand #4?
#4, that is your W having an EA/PA/sex with someone other than you and she come home to you everyday or till she decides to not come home, is what I was getting at.
I do care about her, but just not in a romantic way anymore. ?????? Scratching my head?????
Sounds like ILYBIANILWY?
Not in a romantic way you say? What about pure chemistry between M/F? I can be thinking what is the use and feel lonely, physically cold because I stay up till 3AM in my cold basement and go to bed. BB feels warm, so I get closer. Sometimes the M/F chemistry and I start to get an erection. If BB is reasonable receptive, I put my arm around her, my erection is firmer and I get that rush one gets when they want to have sex.
I forget about the distance between us and want to act loving towards BB. I know she likes and wants her back rubbed so I do that instead of pursuing the sexual options.
Do you feel something for your W when you are laying in bed or some other place, not exactly like I do but your version?
I suppose she could be asexual and doesn’t like anyone to touch her.
I did read the asexual forum for a while. Asexual I wondered? Maybe not intercourse there but several of the posters MB/self pleasured. Even that (MB) is not asexual.
I still find her body sexually attractive (and trust me, it looks PHENOMENAL right now), it's more of a lustful feeling than an "agape" love that a man ought to have for his wife..."Agape Love a man ought to have"??????
Choc, my opinion is would I like "Agape Love" from BB 24/7? No way man! 22 hours a day, yes.
I think you have to have some lust and some Eros. Too much of one thing can be bad. I think of Eros as the salt and pepper that puts something special into a R.
Are you both depriving each other of some salt and pepper?
that a man ought to have for his wife..Who said? And why?
I went to a jr. pastor 20 years ago and said our M was not what it should be. I had to fill out a questionnaire that included "do you or your W abuse yourself" I had to think about that one. Well "abuse yourself" was do either one of you MB. Duh! Maybe a married couple shouldn't have to (MB) but when there is little sex happening, I bet most people do MB.
Anyway I answered no. My point is who said you should feel more agape and no or less Eros/lust.
I am going to lump a majority of the men in a group, show then a sexy picture of a woman that isn't trashy and his biology stirs up some thoughts. I am not saying it stirs up lust. It might, but my point is it stirs up something depending on the man and the situation.
I have this thought process that speculates men and women coming from an X egg (universal material for either sex) and a man's sperm is either X or Y, men/women have similar needs and processes.
There are men and women on the low end of the bell curve as well as on the high end of the bell curve in many areas.
What I am getting at is, you and your w fits somewhere in that bell curve and that/those points vary from time to time.
Because of all of the problems and a common pattern of avoiding by both of us, Aug 2006 was a low point for me, on the "I want sex." Dec 2006 was even lower. So low I was thinking sex was over for BB and I had to adjust. I was really in a bad spot.
About a month ago I was at a higher point on the bell curve wanting sex. So was BB. She said something, I don't remember what. I found some things from the Internet about older women that found intercourse uncomfortable, should try XYZ. I printed out the lists of things. BB found faults in the list, so I re-printed out the list without the objectionable items.
About a week later, BB asked about a lube in several of the articles so I went to the sex store and bought the item.
That was my first trip to the sex store. The female clerks were pleasant and helpful. I explained our situation and one clerk got into a "did you try A,B,C products. It sounded like sales talk rather than a problem solving talk.
I brought the lube home and let it sit in the bathroom for a couple of days. BB used it to test it out to see how it felt after 24 hours. She is sensitive/picky? So many things that are supposedly good, don't measure up.
A couple of days later, we used the ID brand silicone lube and had sex. Not good sex but it was something. I haven't decided if it was worth having sex from the "it should have been pleasurable" point or maybe it wasn’t that good but it was sort of good and it needed to be done. Needed to be done for several reasons, which I haven’t totally worked out in my mind.
My point choc, I think sometimes you have to just do it to save the R. To save yourself. To save your W. It might not be mind blowing, it might be a highly anxiety filled event. I think your W might need the chase, the attention.
I avoid conflicts too. I had a customer that didn't pay a bill or pays part of a bill for 3 years. There were some old invoices that I have been avoiding to talk over with the person that calls me for service.
I printed out the un-paid invoices and the activity report, stating what was paid and not paid. Without showing emotions, I presented the bills to the person that pays the bills.
Why did I wait so long? Anxiety, and fear of making someone I do make a profit from, that they would be upset to the point they would switch to another company for their service work.
I was thinking, do I want 80% of my money due to me from this company or do I want to risk getting all or none in the future?
It has happened before. I lost a couple of customers because I billed them honestly and asked for payment.
Maybe customers and spouses are not the same. I think some of the reasons I don't do some things and ask for what is legitimately right, if fear of losing something. Fear of someone saying NO (in essence, you don't deserve it).
Back to you.
She needs to have her physical beauty validated, and since she no longer gets that from me, she's seeking it elsewhere. Because (at least so far), her personal value system hasn't allowed her to commit adultery,Well, validate her in more ways than verbal.
Personal values and ethics hold up to a point. I think NOP is telling you; many people with value systems have a breaking point. I have read the stories on another forum where mostly women post. They say they wanted nothing to do with any other man than their H. After 5/10/15 years of nothing from their H and the same amount of time 5/10/15 of knowing good male friend with never any overtones of stepping over the line, the woman said they just gave in to the feelings of being lonely and soaked up the attention form this 5/10/15 year friends only male.
The women say they couldn't help then self. They knew it was wrong. They wanted a better M but didn't push for one. They thought they could get by with crumbs. They found they couldn't when in a deep valley.
A couple of years post EA/PA these women admit they caved but also some mostly blame the OM. :eyeroll:
Let him catch her. BTDT
"I love you, and I still think God put us together for a reason, and that we had something special. So don't misunderstand me -- I'd like you to stay with me..So, if Mrs. choc found someone she liked a lot, given her values, could she divide her time between the OP and your family? I am of the opinion it would be OP or miserable with the family. I know I am not good at dual R person.
Do I get to keep my same kids tho? Oh yes. It would be a new type of R of your choosing. To everyone, that is the way it has always been. Magic wands change the people, not their behaviors so your kids would be as they were and if you chose a different W, they would have been hers all along and the old Mrs. Choc would not have know about the kids.
she has still given me the four loves of my life Magic wands would give her something equal in value.
Choc, the magic wand is like making the changes that work for you and her. The magic wand has no down sides or heartaches, bummer.
Question for alpha Males? How about males that sometimes avoid anxiety but still forge ahead? How to forge ahead.
Lou
Sorry, but I have been where your W is - buff and all. I got my certification in my 30's and was in tip top shape. Did that for a while and then had to find a "real job" that could pay the bills. Some years later, at the ripe old age of 49/50 I got into the gym scene all over again and felt really good about myself and was being invited out all over town by a lot of guys (and some women) that were a whole heck of a lot younger than I was. Most I met through the gym and, I have to say, I was flattered that younger men found me attractive - I was also asked if I wanted to work there part-time and serious thought about it because I could get my fees for free
But, before things could get out of control, my common sense took over and I am glad it did because I was going into unchartered territory. Emotions are running pretty high when you are an older woman and feeling pretty damn good about yourself and there are a LOT of younger guys that are just drooling to date older women
It was a great book for me and others I know. Really amazing how many areas it covers in one slim volume.
I even told her at the time that if it ever "wore off" again to the extent that it had (I'm not talking about a mere "bad day"; we all have those . . I'm talking about the total rejection and lack of affection, if THAT ever returned, that I would NOT beg for her affection, and that the love life would basically be over.
It did, and it is.
Well, that explains a lot Choc.
I will adjust my responses to you.
Lou
Choc,
All I wanted was advice on what to say to my wife about what happened last nite
That's what you say as an opening line, but that's not where you went and that's not where your emotion and frustration comes from. Go back and read this thread and all your comments. I do not believe you want simple advice on what to say to your W. If that were so, just tell her the simple lines you first stated. They are good enough for someone who doesn't care. There is no point is even worrying over how they might sound to her.
I think you want your W to love you as she once did, but you want us to justify to you why you should keep your distance from her to protect yourself. I think you are in denial of your true feelings. I can fully understand that and empathize with you, but I won't support you in it.
Well, I'll jump in here. I don't think mrs. choc is going to have sex with anyone. Sex messes up your makeup and your hair and you get all sticky. I think she just wants to know that she can compete with the 20-30-somethings and win. She wants to know that guys want her, but I don't see her having sex with any of them. Why would she?
I think she wants to be a teenager and go out and party and have guys hit on her, guys who don't require any follow-through. Then she will come home to a nice house with the husband and kids, the tv, food in the fridge, where everything is taken care of.
I like the simple, "Call when you're going to be late, so I'll know not to call the cops. If I don't hear from you by midnight, I'll call you, and if you don't answer, I'll be down to make sure you're okay." IOW treat her like the teenager she is.
Lillie, you're a very smart lady. You have my wife pegged to a "T".
This is a woman who changes her clothes like 4x daily. Sex is messy. She just wants people to find her sex-Y.
So, all this talk about Mrs. Choc, potentially having some type of EA, etc is a witch hunt? She just wants to be chased, admired, or whatever? It could be just that.
It is still too much like playing with matches for me.
Lou
Do I blow this off as her just getting out to blow off some steam and enjoy some time with friends, or should I be upset? I would NEVER come home two hours later than she expected ME from something, without calling. I sometimes go out for beers after my baseball league stuff, but the latest I've come home is 10 or 11, and even then, if it's going to be significantly later than what she was expecting, I call Ok so you give her what you want to receive, respect and she gives you what she wants, juicing you up on the emotional drama.
I have a question for you. Can you imagine Mrs. Nop doing what your W did? How about HP, or GEL or Karen?
When I was 21 and had an underdrinking age girlfriend, we went someplace she could get into. there are lots of 18andover places to drink and have a Bday. I sure didnt exclude her, or have her drop her mom off to hang out with us.
You have no boundaries, Choco. I think its been pretty well determined that lack of boundaries is neither attractive, nor engenders respect. If you did at the very most she would have asked and you would have said sure after you find a babysitter for the other kids so we can both go. There is no reason you couldnt join bday boy later, if the games were done by 8:30.
What I DON'T know, is it better if I just ignore it (because she's already shown, she HATES it when I don't get jealous) and not feed that beast, or is it better if I confront her with it.
How can you not know this? When I first started posting here we talked about jealousy and what protection, and cherishing looks and feels like to a woman. The way you are behaving is not it.
What beast? the beast where she wants to feel like you care about her? That she has value to you? That her being your W is important?
They all hang out together, and it was as "Hey, Mrs. Choc., come out with us on Wednesday for Joe's 21st, it'll be fun." Man I use this remark so much, it pretty much works every time. Ive even recommended it here to guys as a way of leading without supplicating. Choco, I go to TARGET, and use a variation of this, to have some company for the evening on a boring hump day.
But what if I don't care? Is your advice still the same, so that I can feel better about myself?
I honestly have zero romantic attraction to her anymore. She inconvenienced me last nite, as it was difficult to sleep until I knew she was home safe, so that plus the lack of respect by no-phone-call pissed me off. But I did not care one whit about how she feels about any of these other, younger guys.
I'm not saying that's right or wrong, or even healthy, but it's just how I feel.
If you dont care, then why dont you D her? Because she has hurt you and you want to hurt her back. She should leave you then. You flat out said you want her to me miserable. Why shouldnt she go find someone who will make her feel good?
But the only thing you asked for was the right thing to say to her in this situation. There is no right thing to say IN ANY SITUATION. again. We have talked so much about intent, and body language. Ive said it a dozen ways a dozen times. NOP just said it within the past month. Masculinity self manifests.
There are no right words for this situation, because this situation is proof that her respect and your boundaries are non existant. There is nothing you can say to have a 1 day fix. I will say this though.
When you tell a woman you dont care about OM, or push her verbally or with your actions towards another man, you are not cherishing her or protecting her. tending the fences. AND she will hate you for it.
Still, with that all being said, I do appreciate your unique perspective, and I am proceeding with EVERYTHING with the understanding that I'm taking a risk that my wife could have an affair. But that's HER choice, not mine. She has known for a long time what my needs are, and has chosen to ignore them. She's gone so far as to tell me why she does this (push me away), that she wishes she WASN'T like this, and that she promises not to BE like this, ever again.
Then she does it.
I just need to figure out a way to leave her Choice to her, but to still feel OK about my own integrity in the process.
You think you are being differentiated, but you are not treating her like a woman needs to be. Personally your W reminds me a lot of LFL. You may say say that is her choice and it is, but thats not going to stop the pain and destruction thats going to engulf you.
"Hey, glad you had a good time, but next time I'd appreciate a phone call if you're going to be that late. I was concerned." is perfect This is not a good reply. its a push, and its a lie. if you want to maintain your integrity thru this, and truly want to remove culpability from your shoulders then you will be direct and honest, about YOU.
I can't help but think Mrs. Choc likes to be chased and maybe some day someone is going to catch her. Then what are you going to do?
Let him catch her. Or -- more accurately -- tell her something like "I love you, and I still think God put us together for a reason, and that we had something special. So don't misunderstand me -- I'd like you to stay with me. But I will not beg for that, and I will not even allow you to choose that if it means that we remain in the sexless, affectionless marriage that we've been in for most of the past 20 years."
This hoped for conversation where she suddenly realizes you are the man for her, and makes a choice, is a pipe dream. again, your expecting from her what you are unable to do yourself. If/when she leaves your M, and 98% of the time women have someone else when they leave, because of your emotional neglect, she wont give a flying pig whether or not you want her to stay, and she certainly wont care about having sex with you when she has someone else she can have sex with with no emotional grittiness to deal with. What will happen is she will let you know exactly how you have abandoned, neglected, failed, and hurt her all these years. You have this idea, desire, want for her to choose you, all whilst you are pushing her away. Get real Choco. Im truly saying this as your friend. I wish I would have had a friend to say this to me. Mayhaps my arrogance and intractability would have precluded me from understanding much as yours is.
that when you love someone, you're told of their intense pain and have seen it up-close, and you've PROMISED that it (intentionally turning away, and becoming affection-less) wouldn't happen again, you DON'T just blow that off if you truly love the person, and care about them, and can continue to see signs of their pain daily. So why do you put up with her emotional abuse of you? Whoes fault is that?
What is stopping you from being proactive about doing what it will take to proactively address this, even if it means D her? She is being proactive about getting what she needs.
I find this sad.
You have a woman who, based on the assumption that she has been faithful too you for the past 20 years, has stuck by you while you have given her no reason to be attracted or feel romantic attraction to you. You have 4 children that are also not motivation enough for you to step up and do and say the radically honest things to her, that you expect her to do and say to you.
Now I will admit that I did the exact same relational swapping that you are doing to your W, with x, but damn I would have been seriously impressed with 1 year of fortitude and ability to withstand the emotional starvation and do nothingness that you have subjected yours too for at the very minimum 3 years.
You really have a woman, and a family, worth it. shrug.
Your feelings are screaming at you to do something, take some action, and you are ignoring them, stuffing them, not aware of them, dont know what to do about them. They will continue to talk to you louder and louder untill even your dreams are vividly telling you of the impending danger.
1. Both spouses agree there is a problem, and agree to work on it, together; There is the answer to your question. Youve had it in you all along.
You tell your wife,
'we have a serious problem. Our marriage is on the verge of failing.
That is not a question.
If you agree with me, that there is a problem, then we have to come to a joint decision on whether to deal with it, or end it. its time we do something about it. If you disagree with me, that there is a problem, then there is nothing to talk about, and I begin what needs to be done.'or you can continue to watch others make important decisions about your life.
I wont wish you luck Choco, cause its gonna take a butt load of hard work, no matter which way you go.
Choc, Just a reminder here...we are all concerned for you, your marriage, as well as your W, who is struggling...but let's not overlook the effect your W's behavior may be having on your young adult daughters, who are blooming right now. It's psychologically very hard to have a mother who is competing for attention. Your girls will be confused and it will effect their self esteem. They may even become guilt ridden about developing and blossoming, which would be such a shame...all girls need their time in the sun. If you allow your W's MLC/narcissistic traits to spiral out of control, your girls will be hurt. Just something else to consider....
So, all this talk about Mrs. Choc, potentially having some type of EA, etc is a witch hunt? She just wants to be chased, admired, or whatever? It could be just that.
It is still too much like playing with matches for me.
Lou
Lou,
I think what I'm trying to say -- and what NOP would concur -- is that this may very well be (I would say "definitely is") my wife just looking for some MLC validation for her beauty and her youthfulness, that's NOT out looking for an affair.
But that women in this mindset are RIPE for an EA or even a PA if they then get that validation from someone other than her husband.
Also, SHE may not have it on her mind, but the young men around her probably DO.
Choc.
Choc wrote:
================================================
I think what I'm trying to say -- and what NOP would concur -- is that this may very well be (I would say "definitely is") my wife just looking for some MLC validation for her beauty and her youthfulness, that's NOT out looking for an affair.
================================================
I am very short on time today, but I will be honest but brief.
She is in an environment FULL of people that do little other than look at their muscles in the mirror and try new lines on the opposite sex.
I think your wife is vulnerable to the point that should the right guy come along, 20 minutes would be all it would take, and you have just multiplied your problem set by a factor of a thousand.
Choc, In my "day", I never spent more than 20 minutes picking out a partner for the night. Ask BF just how easy it is to find someone that is ripe for the picking, and that's not even accounting for the ladies that are just interested in some casual sex.
I have used the term before - easy target - and that is what she is. That is not your only problem. The real problem is the guys that think that playing older women (MILFs) is all the sport, not the guys like me, just looking for like-minded individuals. Your wife is SPECIFICALLY - a target. Hence my urgency for you to start showing your protective side to her.
Choc, when I was young, I specifically stayed away from known married woman. It was simple. Back then, an estranged husband could shoot you and kill you and likely NOT land in jail. So messing with married women was a generally bad idea. That is not the case these days. Targeting MILFs is game play. In fact, a prize valued far above the casual sexual encounter.
Just so you know.
-NOPkins-
Choc,
I wouldn't assume ANYTHING about your wife now, based on her previous attitude toward sex. Read: don't assume she couldn't be interested in sex with another man now just because she isn't having sex with you.
I am 44, I have spent much of my marriage LD, I have been having a bit of a MLC myself -- I've lost weight, gotten a new hip hairstyle, more youthful clothes, etc. Not that long ago I was feeling terribly lonely, unloved, emotionally shut out by my husband. (Not blaming him, just stating how I felt.) I began to realize how easy it is for women in my situation to fall into an affair if a man came along and paid the attention so desperately needed. Feeling like that could make even the most unlikely person do something most unexpected, even someone who thinks sex is too messy.
Your P/A avoidant behavior is extremely dangerous with someone like your wife, who is clearly craving male attention, and who looks so fabulous that she could have her pick of men. You are in denial if you can't see that her need for validation of her beauty could, in an instant, turn into an affair with the validator.
Maybe on some level he's hoping that some other dude will take her off his hands.
Perhaps in his state, he has a good shot at getting custody if she jumps the fence. Or maybe he just doesn't want to dump her and look like a jerk to his kids and the rest of the world.
I will not ascribe such calculating ulterior motives to Choco. I dont think he is intentionally wanting to flush his marriage.
I think Choco has been neglected, hurt, and both he and his wife are acting in perfectly normal ways toward each other during a LTR.
He has said flat out, What does she want from me. He is/was confused.
When I messed up in my M, well there were lots of times, I am one of those emotionally underequipped beings called
MEN afterall,
but specifically, when I played indifferant and created a bad situation, I really thought I was being differentiated. 'superior' to the jealousy games.
I was not acting in a proactive fashion though. and definitely not protective or cherishing.
He is human and so is she.
I don't know if it's calculating. I just know that if she were neglecting me for years, and then showing signs of straying, I would be tempted to some degree to simply let her so I wouldn't have to make the difficult decision to stay or go.
Eddie I understand where you are coming from, but that is exactly the frame of mind that is going to encourage her to continue on her way.
If you the man, the scriptural head of the household, the biological protector, and the emotional tuning fork dont know what you want or even that you want her, let alone what decision to make, then to paraphrase David Deida, what the heck does she 'need' you for?
eddie she has plenty to work on herself, but by not making a decision as a man, you may as well roll around in woman repellant.
Blackfoot,
Good to hear from you and to see that you are doing well, even though you seem a little down. That was a good post to Choc. I hope he can work through his mountain of resentment. I have a question for you.
....when I played indifferant and created a bad situation, I really thought I was being differentiated. 'superior' to the jealousy games.
I was not acting in a proactive fashion though. and definitely not protective or cherishing.
Regarding your sitch, does this new insight of yours only apply to relationships going forward, with new people, or can it be applied retroactively? Have you imposed a door on the past beyond which your new insights are not to apply?
my wife just looking for some MLC validation for her beauty and her youthfulness, that's NOT out looking for an affair.
Choc, I am not looking for an A, but some days it is hard to not think about one. I just assume your W has validation needs that at first are/will be verbal, but then a little more gets added to the pot, and after a while it becomes physical. Weather that is hand holding or something else.
Was Heather looking for an A when she first met the other guy? I don't think so.
I am reminded of the many posts I have read about women saying they were LD for their H but got a sexual buzz from other guys paying attention to them.
Look at my case. I was working 2 jobs and BB felt neglected. A new church in the neighborhood was recruiting new members. The pastor and his W came to the house several times. BB liked the attention and got hooked on the attention from the pastor.
I never would have thought a pastor was a threat. At that time, I was doing so much for our family. I thought BB should be thrilled I was working so hard for us. Wrong, she was lonely. I thought we were having enough sex and us time, at a reasonable rate and intensity. I guess, BB didn't. I eventually learned a W being LD doesn’t mean she is universally LD all of the time.
What people/women/men are attracted to is different for different folks. Your W likes the attention from others in a nonsexual way, lets say 99% of the time. Maybe someone has that 1% to change wanting verbal/visual attraction into something physical or emotional.
I remember reading women's that had EA/PA's, stories. They all started out with, "I liked the attention. It wasn’t about me (her) wanting sex so much but the OM needed it" or something similar.
Then there are the perverts that use alcohol or drugs to get what they want.
that's NOT out looking for an affair.
Not looking and "not going to happen" are two different things. People wind up with things they were not looking for. They wind up with things they were not for because it is part of a package that comes with what they "are looking to acquire."
I can see where you don’t want to be your W keeper. I read where you won’t beg. I have been there.
Do think about what goes on in the M and how it affects your kids.
If your daughter or son came to you with a similar situation, what/how would you advise him/her?
BF I think Choco has been neglected, hurt, and both he and his wife are acting in perfectly normal ways toward each other during a LTR.
I agree with you BF.
Lou
She might not be out "looking" for an A to happen but it rarely ever happens that way. How many times have you heard the cheater say "it just happened" - well it did and it didn't. It first started off as "just friends" and before you know it you are telling them stuff that shouldn't be talked about to anyone other than your partner or, at the very most, a same-sex friend.
These things aren't as much "in your face" as people like to think they are. Yes, it is a choice the cheater makes but it is not an instant choice, for the most part, it is something that "happens" over time, talking, being together etc. That is why it is so prevalent at work, where you spend so much time together
I don't care what anyone says, I would still be VERY concerned about the situation. She is screaming "I am lonely, look at me"
Have I thought about having an A - you betcha!! LOTS!! I have every reason to but that's not the answer. However, for some, they aren't as strong.
Mrs. CAC,
You misunderstand me. I've already stated, above, that I not only consider myself "ripe for an affair, EA or even PA", but also that I'm basing my own actions and decisions with a possible future divorce in the back of my mind.
All I've said here most recently is that I don't think she's actively SEEKING it.
Either way, it's not really an important distinction, as any affair -- or divorce -- would have devastating effects.
Everyone (including my own daughters) seems so concerned about my wife's needs and validation; how come nobody ever seems to notice that the man is hurting too?
What came first here, the chicken, or this latest egg?
Choc.
you may as well roll around in woman repellant.
Sorry, but in my near-depressed state, that was pretty damned funny. Thanks for the laugh today - I needed it!
Choc., who actually always did pretty good ... make that REALLY good . . . with the ladies in h.s. and college, before he started sprayin' on the Cutter's Woman Repellant
Choc,
I also thought that was pretty funny.
After re-reading I am thinking that you first need to identify whether you are staying in this M. Maybe it doesn't matter what she does. Just make sure if you go the route of "let her do what she wants" you are ready for the consequences. You sound really worn out more so than really done with the marriage but it is for you to decide. You have to decide whether you are "in" or "out" before you throw down the gauntlet. However, Bf's line of "this marriage is failing" is a good way to approach the conversation if you are willing to put in the work. I KNOW you are hurting too. I read some book once that asked the question of whether you are willing to be the "hero" in your marriage. It is a good question. Best of luck.
Karen
Choc,
A wise person on this board said to me a little while ago, "do you want to fix your marriage or do you want to be right?" Or something to that effect. So I'm asking you the same question.
It does not matter whether your wife is seeking an A or not; she is still extremely vulnerable to one. I'll say it again: you are making a HUGE mistake if you ASSUME that your wife won't have an A because she doesn't like sex, or for some other reason.
If you want to try to fix your marriage, then take the advice of the wise posters in this thread and DO SOMETHING about it!! Your wife IS screaming out for attention. Stop making excuses. Stop blaming your wife for everything. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Take the advice of NOP and Blackfoot.
Do something.
Don't let your stubbornness put the nail in the coffin of your M and rip your family apart. I have seen within my own FOO how stubbornness can rip a family apart, causing deep wounds that can never be healed. Don't let this happen to your family. You will regret it one day, I'm certain.
My brother and my parents have a strained R and my SIL will have nothing to do with them (or with me). My mother and my SIL are grudgers who hold on to every little transgression with a white-knuckled grip. I tried to recall recently how we all came to be on the outs and I can't even remember the sequence of events anymore. I no longer care who did or said what to whom. All I care about is having an R with my brother and his wife, but it will never happen because she can't let go of the past. She can't forgive. She's never met our S4. On the rare occasions we do see my brother, he comes alone. It's very sad. That's the feeling I get when I read your posts.
I remember trying to get my mother to extend an olive branch to my brother. "Why should
I have to do that? His wife is the one who did/said blah, blah, blah. I'm his MOTHER. He should have more respect for me." I said, "Do you want a R with your son or not? One of you has to be the grown-up. I guess it has to be you." She did approach him and apologize (for telling him she wished his wife was dead.
) They now have a cordial R, but it will never be the same.
If you just don't want to fix your M, just can't get past being wronged, then put yourself and your wife out of your respective miseries and get a divorce. Get it over with. You can get on with your life and she can get on with hers. Why drag it out?
I know what you're going through isn't easy. But it won't go away. It will continue to wear you both down. You HAVE to make a decision one way or the other. To continue on your current path is self-destructive.
mrs.cac
Hi Cobra.
Regarding your sitch, does this new insight of yours only apply to relationships going forward, with new people, or can it be applied retroactively? Have you imposed a door on the past beyond which your new insights are not to apply? You know persistance can be a pretty good attribute.
probably the most painful and one of the hardest lessons for me to accept, and ironically I dont get to use that insight.
lol It only applies to LTR's. I did apply it or the reconcil would not have happened. When I said to x, 'I will never see or speak to you after the D.', I was not implementing a Plan B tactic.
Choc,
Had a little time and briefly caught up on your thread. My ticker is a little better.
Its time for you to be the king of your pride. Frankly, I think you should say the following to your W ...
"W, I know you are a beautiful woman, and you are loving the attention you are getting at the gym from the younger guys. Just don't cross the line or the penalty is a broken jaw for him."
What does the lion do when a young upstart comes into his territory? Deals with it swiftly and ferociously. What do the lionesses do in return? Give him all the food he can eat.
Chrome
p.s. This is coming from one wannabe alpha male to another
p.p.s With apologies to NOPkins for partially stealing his line
"W, I know you are a beautiful woman, and you are loving the attention you are getting at the gym from the younger guys. Just don't cross the line or the penalty is a broken jaw for him."
Uh, gross. Really a huge turn off. Violent macho BS does not an alpha male make.
Choc:
My xH was a lot like you are now, though we NEVER went three years without sex. Ever.
Recently, I saw my xH at a school function for our youngest son. Just by chance, we met in the hallway. It was only the two of us. He came out the gym, smiling. Don't know what he was smiling AT, but, I can tell you... his demeanor hit met like a ton of bricks.
He was smiling, like I said, he was relaxed, there was no tension in him, or his shoulders, he looked... happy. He SO CAUGHT ME OFF GUARD, I paused. We exchanged a few nothing sentences, and then my son came out... he went off with our son, I went home.
The sitch stood out so singularly in my mind, I actually emailed my xH, unpromted... and told him how wonderful it was, for the first time in 12 or more years, to actually see him some way other than annoyed or stressed or pissed off. I told him that whatever he had done to finally find that look of peace and happiness, to keep doing it, for I had not seen it in the very longest of times. I told him it looked good on him, and that was the man I had remembered from so long ago.
So. Keep going as you are, and hopefully, sometime in the future, you will get an email, exactly like mine, from your ex-wife.
Corri
Chrome,
That was a bit harsh, even for tactless me. Sorry, too late to edit.
Hi, OT.
Actually the broken jaw line is from me.
I told MrsNOP once that if she ever decided to fool around on me, that she was choosing to have the other man's jaw broken.
If that is too macho for you, then I'm sorry, but, it is a matter of fact, and I would be good to my word, and MrsNOP knows it.
All the best,
-NOPkins-
OT,
Its ok, no worries. I had that same reaction when I was first told about that mindset. I now understand it better.
NOTE: I'm NOT trying to be patronizing.
Chrome
NOP
I remember a long time ago BF really pushed me one evening, telling me my W was ripe for an A, and what would I do if I found out about one. I told him I would probably just be very sad, but would understand and forgive. I now see how repellent such a response would be. Like it or not, logical or not, she would read that as "you don't think I'm worth defending or fighting for." Now in my heart I know that if I found out about an A, I would do everything it took, EVERYTHING, to drive OM away permanently. Then we would deal with the A.
Chrome
p.s. Granted, not every person is made the same, as there are no silver bullets. I'm sure there are many women like OT out there that do not respond well to "violent macho BS." I guess that's why we have both brains and hearts.
Hi, Chrome.
Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Now in my heart I know that if I found out about an A, I would do everything it took, EVERYTHING, to drive OM away permanently. Then we would deal with the A.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a slightly different take on it. I would break his jaw (and probably spend a night or two in jail, but hey, it would be worth it), and do everything I could to put her out of the house since she was half the action.
I am afraid that my affair contingency plans and those of DB and MB are bit different
Be good,
-NOPkins-
NOP:
I hate to be a wet rag, my man. But... if you are actually going to go the route of breaking someone's jaw, and then throwing the Mrs. out of the house, you may as well save your time in jail.
Personally.. in every imagined scenario, and those that are/have been real... when confronted with an A... I have not, nor have I ever, looked to the OTHER person as the one on whom to take out my agression. No one is ever 'whooed.' No one is ever duped. No one is EVER taken advantage of... unless you are so sloppy drunk or under the influence of drugs... but WHY were you at that point to begin with?
So... if you need to break a jaw.... okay. But HE, whomever that MIGHT BE... was not, and IS NOT, the problem. They are not innocent, by any means... but they are NOT the problem. Better you go to a gym and beat yourself up. And THEN throw the Mrs. out.
That's the hard part. If you are going to break someone's jaw, and then stay in the M and fight for what is yours... fine. To break a jaw and leave... to me... is wasted effort. Break your own jaw, for pulling the Choco move. Don't waste your time in jail over a done M. Not worth it.
When I left my M... I was confronted with all kinds of things. Most especially a pissed off H. All I saw was anger. That's it. Nothing else. Pure, pissed off, how-dare-I pissed offness.
I dare a lot. Never doubt it.
I'm In Your Face, I DARE YOU. Top me. Mother fcker. TOP me. But do it in that intelligent, take-no-prisoners way you live the REST of your life... don't pull that pissy, intimidation, I don't respect your lioness that got my lion kind of way. Fck that. Who the he!! do you think you married? You picked me for a reason.
So. If Mrs. NOP EVER hauls tail out and finds herself another man... you've fallen, and you haven't listened... and don't get pissed at the OTHER guy. Get your OWN ass in gear, hear? She's a lioness worth having... and if you aren't the lion to keep her, don't be going and blaming the OTHER lions for coming in.
Now. That doesn't let Mrs. NOP off the hook (potentially). Not saying it does. But. Mrs. NOP would never go and look, EVER... with a lion like you... unless you were no longer a lion.
In my case, well....
Corri
... I wasn't lionness enough to keep him.
I had tried... but I think it was a little too little, a little too late.
And what's more... I began asking for things in return. Everything just imploded.
Not that that is necessarily a bad thing. Not looking back. But knowing everything that had gone before, all the years we spent working, all the years in counseling... there are times when putting something to rest is the kindest thing that two people can do for one another.
He's happy.
And more than anything... I want my kids to see happiness. We sure as HE!! couldn't do it together.
Corri
I hear what you are saying Corri, but I would still break his jaw, because of what she did.
Consequences of the choice she made. He would just be guilty of being stupid with the wrong woman.
That obviously doesn't make sense to you, and I can understand that. There is a side to most of us here that others are unaware of.
His broken jaw would ensure no further physical damage.
As for rebuilding a marriage after an affair, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't even try. I don't mind helping others though.
All the best,
-NOPkins-
Corri wrote: "... I wasn't lionness enough to keep him."
I don't think there is anything else you could have done to keep him, lioness or no.
He was too broken. That isn't your fault.
All the best,
-NOPkins-
NOP:
Okay. I get that. I broke a jaw, and never threw a fist. It just happened to be my xH's. But... I get what you are saying, now.
Corri
NOP:
I don't think there is anything else you could have done to keep him, lioness or no.
My shrink told me 10 years ago, in one of our first meetings... "you should never have married this man. But you did. Now... let us see what we can do to keep you together."
At the end... when I went back to my shrink... and I told him details of all that had gone... details and unmigated truth I have not shared here and will not... he bowed his head... as if he had failed me somehow... and he said to me... are you sure?
And I said... "yes. I cannot stay."
And he grabbed my hands. And he looked up at me, and he said... "okay. Let's get you better." And he smiled at me.
And I said... "But... and ... or..." and he said to me... "you have drawn the very first boundary of your life. Let's get you better."
And I said to him... "what, was I supposed to leave?" And he said to me... it doesn't matter. Let't get you better." Now mind you... his wife was treating my xH.
And I went back to him and I told him about my most recent encounter with my xH. And he said... "yeah... so?"
I've told him about my current bf... and he has his opinions... but... he is letting me steer the ship... and he is helping me regain my sense of self. Up against a wall... you cannot find anyone... ANYONE... who will come out fighting harder than me. He doesn't want me to fight anymore. He just wants me to be Corri. And that is quite a challenge. To BE my lionness.
Corri
Corri wrote: "He just wants me to be Corri. And that is quite a challenge. To BE my lionness."
Amen to that Corri girl. I'm no shrink, but I KNOW you are going to be okay.
All the best,
-NOPkins-
NOP:
You sh!t azz mthrfcker. Gddmnit. I really hate you sometimes.
Mthfcker. Dam it, I hate you sometimes. I really do, I really, really, really, really do.
All my luv.
Corri
Choc
OK. So far the tally is ...
For jaw-breaking ... one alpha, one wannabe alpha, and one raging lioness (with some caveats)
Against jaw-breaking ... a different lioness
What say you BF, Cobra, and the other alpha males (or wannabes)?
How about you Choc?
Chrome
p.s. Choc, I am making light a little bit here, but I do think this is serious. Whether you are into jaw-breaking or not, letting your W know that you IN NO WAY want her crossing the line with any OM is IMHO an important thing to do.
Sorry Chrome:
Choc is taking the entitled, pissed off H route. He has no intention of reclimaing, for he sees it as losing pride, BTDT too many times, thing. I can see it. As a D wife. Sure. No prob.
Corri
Man, you guys are a weird, intense bunch.
Has everyone been drinking tonite, or what?
Choc,
Nope, gotta lay off the alcohol for awhile due to the a-fib preventing drugs.
Chrome
Threatening breaking of jaws thats just macho bs, but it
sounds good on the internet. Oh I know its not a threat, its a promise.
It's be said before there is always someone out there bigger, faster and
meaner. There are people who like to fight, there are people who train to
fight, there are people who don't mind taking a couple of shots if it means
they can destroy you, there are people who have black hearts that would
think nothing of breaking you knees or worse in a fight and have the
knowledge to do so.
Daniel Pinkwater said "Somewhere, there is a chile you cannot eat".
While I can see the egoic desire to fight a sexual rival my vote goes
against violence, and especially against threats of violence.
Now back to the topic at hand, C-eyes need to set a boundary.
Don't try and be perfect about it don't put that burden on yourself
as well. Do you think an "alpha" cares if they say the right thing?
Just say something, don't let these things slide.
Threatening breaking of jaws thats just macho bs, but it
sounds good on the internet.
That's me, purveyor of fine internet macho bs.
I guess I should just stop while I'm behind and let the real alpha males "duke it out."
Chrome ... who can't sleep because of a stomach virus and bad reactions to medicine on top of everything else (which includes an IV tip left in his wrist).
p.s. Best of luck to you Choco. You've had a tough ride so far and I commend you for sticking out as long as you have. Keep the faith.
Chrome,
Thanks for the thoughts, and you take care. Tell the nurse to put somethin' GOOD into that IV drip for ya, k?
Choc.
Hi Martelo.
My father used to say to me, "there's never been a horse that couldn't be rode, nor a rider that couldn't be throw'd"
Like I said, no one knows everyone's complete background here.
I spent almost 12 years being taught how to kill people. No lame or maim, dead. My mention of broken jaw is for ME. That is my release so that I don't do something worse. The simple fact is that I am dangerous, and if I have a pre-planned limit on my reaction, then I hopefully won't do something stupid in the heat of the moment which will likely NEVER HAPPEN ANYWAY, still, I have a plan.
I don't claim that there is no one more dangerous than me. That would be foolish. I am 51 years old now. Regardless, If I can touch you, I can put you on the ground. No brag, just fact.
The reason the whole thing has been brought up here is in an effort to help someone else "self-limit" their reaction to a bad situation. There are lots of us out in the world that couldn't "just walk it off". Better to have a plan to minimize than to let your "emotion of the minute" get away with you. A secondary benefit is for the less action oriented male (or female for that matter). While they may never do more than stand up under the devastation of the blow of betrayal (no small feat), at least their confidence is bolstered, and rightly so.
Macho may irritate you, but macho, bravado and good training applied with intelligence is a large part of what keeps my nation free. I am grateful for it.
-NOPkins-
Martelo, I love that quote! That's my new sig line.
NOP, I thought you and I were exactly the same age.
There are some advantages to acting super alpha, super macho, super threatening. One is that the best defense is a strong offense. Nuclear deterrence ala mutually assured destruction. It works with the right people. MrsNop is a peacemaker, one who wants to reconcile two warring factions, so threats like the ones Nop makes are actually comforting to her. The line is so clear, so strong, so deep, there is no worry she will ever have to face a hard choice. It can also serve as proof to a woman of how much her man loves her.
This kind of strutting, blustering, intimidating is all a bonding ritual, IMO. The woman’s role is to also rush to the aid of the H, as you see MrsNop do instantly whenever someone attacks Nop. I’ve mentioned before the geese do the exact same thing. That take it even further in that the female will instigate an even with another male by badgering him. Her mate will then rush to attack that male and defend the female. That reinforces the bond. It seems to work for geese.
In people, I see this type of interaction as rooted in fear and insecurity. It is a need to continually show boundaries out of fear those boundaries might get breached. Nop’s statement that he would break the other man’s jaw just for his own satisfaction, and then throw out the marriage anyway, has little to do with building a healthy relationship and more to do with deterrence.
I see it as nothing more than intimidation and therefore control. Like I said, it works for geese, and apparently some people. I don’t think it would work for many others. The reason for that is the intimidation is meant to prevent the woman from having to face a choice. I see it in the same spirit though a less sever form of the control practiced by the Taliban. Here are the rules… follow them and the safety and security of the woman is assured, even revered. Step out of line and swift, sever punishment is sure to follow for all who were associated with the “crime.” Now tell me whether that sounds like a healthy marriage or just another form of control?
Cobra
Now tell me whether that sounds like a healthy marriage or just another form of control?
Ah, the line between being in-control and controlling. The line between being assertive and domineering. Alpha males are supposed to be always in-control. So if my scenario of saying I will do everything I can to remove an OM from the situation (including breaking a jaw if necessary and warranted) then dealing with the A is controlling, how can I "lessen" it to be "in-control?" Maybe it is the saying that you and Martelo are finding objectionable?
Sorry if I'm being glib, but this is a discussion that I worry that what I say may end up being counterproductive. My C has repeatedly told me that there are certain things that are ok to think and act upon, but you should never say, as the saying creates thought processes that destroy the intended outcome. There are certain things that are best done on a feeling/emotional level rather than a thinking/logical level. This alpha male stuff probably falls into that category. If you try to apply to much logic to it, it fails.
Chrome
Chrome,
I do think it depends in part on the other person. Those destructive thoughts that can arise in one person may not arise in another. So I think intimidation can work at times, and backfire at other times. I think this where you need to pull your wife into the mix. If you want to know how she would respond, then ask her.
Stop trying to guess what is best for her, for in trying to do too much for her, even though it is out of your true concern for her, you end up controlling her, you detract from her ability to carve out her own growth, and set yourself up for disappointment if she does not return the same concern for you, or at least in the way you would like to see it.
IMO, there is no “right” answer to your question. You don’t have to guess what is the right thing to say to your W, you can ask her what she would like you to say. Getting her input is half of the bonding process. I still think you need to DRAG her into counseling. Just you going alone is working on this marriage with one hand tied behind your back. If you can get her there, and talk about these kinds of things, you might find out she would love for you to be super macho…. or not.
Cobra, why do you continue to make wild guess at my motivations, and now, include my wife?
It just isn't that simple.
I will throw you another piece of the puzzle. You can't begin to guess my FOO issues, simply because they existed for only a few - numbered less than 10,000. I'm not special, but I am nothing at all like you or like you imagine. MrsNOP's issues with me deal with a set of circumstances completely alien to you.
I don't care what you say or do here, it is an open forum after all. I have no desire whatsoever to debate you. Your pronouncements of having figured us out are misplaced however, and rooted only in your imagination.
Quote:"Now tell me whether that sounds like a healthy marriage or just another form of control?"
Have a look at your own relationship before you condemn mine. Mine is not in trouble. I don't treat my wife without respect. I am not stuck in my family of origin issues. You might also want to have a look at why my presence here is such an irritant to you.
I just don't bother to read most of your posts. I suggest that the same is a good tactic for you.
All the best,
-NOPkins-
You don't have to guess what is the right thing to say to your W, you can ask her what she would like you to say.
Do you really think asking my W what she would want me to say or do is attractive, assertive behavior? Maybe I'm missing the whole point here, but that seems to fly in the face of everything else I've heard about it, and seems to be contradictory to how you have been handling your own M.
If you can get her there, and talk about these kinds of things, you might find out she would love for you to be super macho ... or not.
I don't want to be super-macho. That's not who I am nor who I ever could be even if I wanted to. I just want to stop being un-attractive to my W and start being attractive, or at least tip the balance more toward the attractive side. I know my W isn't into the super-macho men. She isn't into WCW or UFC guys. But she does love Sean Connery and Patrick Stewart. She also, like many other women I have talked to loves the "House" main character, who is quite a jerk most of the time. Why is that?
Chrome
Lillieperl wrote: "NOP, I thought you and I were exactly the same age."
Looking at your picture, I thought you were several years younger than me.
-NOPkins-
You're very kind... I'll be 59 in November.
In that picture, I'm 54.
Nop,
I do not know much about your FOO because I have never seen you nor MrsNop ever mention it. But my statement is based solely on what I see in your comments and your reactions. There is a link to FOO in that I say your tactics are fear based… but that link is such a consistent pattern in relationships and human behavior, there ought to be a “law of relationships.”
My comments weren’t meant to condemn your relationship, but I do think they are an accurate depiction of what we see on the board. MrsNop is the one who stated she will jump to your defense whenever someone “attacks” you, so I didn’t even have to make an observation on that point. As you have in the past, you are now doing the same in jumping to her defense.
For you, putting forth the idea of breaking someone’s jaw because of something that started between you and your W seems to work. I do not think it will work for many others. Defending your rationale as the result of years of training to kill people does not make sense either. You preach constraint, planning, control, rationality, dealing with the hard facts, strategizing a solution… but to say that you may not be able to control yourself and that just breaking someone’s jaw is just your way is simply absurd. I’ve called many people out on their deflections, and this is just another deflection by you. I can understand you not wanting to debate it. Most people don’t like being called out.
I don't treat my wife without respect.
How can this be, if you have so little concern for your W that you are ready to throw her out at the first indiscretion (or would it be the first)? Corri was right at the core of the issue, which is that same message you preach, that if a woman wanders, it is 50% the man’s fault. How does this square with the advice you are now giving?
It’s not that I care how you conduct your marriage, but those types of comments can lead others to some dangerous ideas. There is value in your methods, but to best use that knowledge, a person NEEDS to know why and when those methods work and when they don’t. Isn’t that the purpose of this board? So what is wrong with me referencing your sitch?
I just don't bother to read most of your posts. I suggest that the same is a good tactic for you.
Your choice, but your could learn something every now and then….
Chrome,
Do you really think asking my W what she would want me to say or do is attractive, assertive behavior? Maybe I'm missing the whole point here, but that seems to fly in the face of everything else I've heard about it, and seems to be contradictory to how you have been handling your own M.
Where was it ever stated that assertiveness should exclude feedback? Your wife told you some time ago that she did not like you super-alpha, assertive behavior. So you toned it down. You adapted to what she wants from you. That does not mean you can’t be assertive in a way that is attractive to her. I don’t know exactly what she might find attractive assertiveness, but maybe it is along the lines of putting your emotions and feelings out there first, so she will feel safe to do likewise. That might be assertiveness to her. That might be her definition of alpha. It means fine-tuning the definition of what her love language is, and that requires feedback.
There is another camp of relationship ideas that is in opposition to this alpha theme. Gottman and others preach that a woman should feel she has influence over her man. To me this makes sense with what Dieda says. If the woman’s focus is the relationship, then she would want to now she has an impact on her man. For the man to listen to her feedback seems consistent with that. With that information, with remaining sensitive to her needs, the man can then act in the “appropriate” alpha way. At least that's how I see it.
Hi, Lillieperl.
You certainly didn't look 54.
I wonder if you would mind if I were to ask you a difficult question about your relationship with your boyfriend? It is one that I have pondered for some time now, and it comes from a situation that existed between my father and his second wife before his death.
All the best,
-NOPkins-
Cobra, I won't comment on most of the rest of your post, other than I think it was off the mark.
Quote:" but to say that you may not be able to control yourself and that just breaking someone’s jaw is just your way is simply absurd. I’ve called many people out on their deflections, and this is just another deflection by you. I can understand you not wanting to debate it. Most people don’t like being called out. "
Again, an assumption on your part. The fact here, is simply that I know my limitations. I am constrained and rational. Part of that includes understanding my baser -demonstrated- emotions, especially the ones that can take on physical form. You more than anyone else here should understand that concept.
In any case, what I would really like to hear about is your wife's take on your relationship with her, and your kids.
Is there any chance of her coming here to post?
-NOPkins-
"Alpha males are supposed to be always in-control."
Uh, maybe of themselves. But, they aren't supposed to be controlling of others.
Chrome, directness, self-confidence, competence, sexual energy, and strength are what are attractive about the men you mention.
Lillieperl wrote: "NOP, ask away."
Thank you very much.
After my mother had left my father very damaged from all of her affairs and they eventually divorced (he became an alcoholic after the divorce), he met a woman basically on a rebound. They eventually married. They got along well, but I don't believe that he ever loved her, more of a convenience relationship. He was never really happy after the divorce, and he died pretty suddenly a couple of years later, and I never was able to understand their relationship from his point of view.
Taking away all of the philosophical arguments and maxims, I was wondering what the real "glue" is that keeps you and your boyfriend together. As I understand it right now, you aren't particularly happy, and he doesn't meet your sexual needs. It appears that you derive some pleasure out of the relationship with the amount of care you have been able to provide him. So what makes it "tick" for you.
Thanks for your time.
-NOPkins-
Nop,
In any case, what I would really like to hear about is your wife's take on your relationship with her, and your kids.
Is there any chance of her coming here to post?
She thinks I totally distort everything about our M, that I only tell one side of the story, that I villanize her, etc, etc. I've told her plenty of times to post her side here, that there are plenty of people who would love to take a jab a me. So far she won't do it. Maybe there's a reason why....
I've given this question a LOT of thought over the last almost five years-- a L-O-T of thought. I'll start a new thread and answer it a bit later today. It'a a very good question, a key question for me. I have a feeling my answer may not apply to your dad's sitch.
Cobra:
How can this be, if you have so little concern for your W that you are ready to throw her out at the first indiscretion (or would it be the first)? Corri was right at the core of the issue, which is that same message you preach, that if a woman wanders, it is 50% the man’s fault. How does this square with the advice you are now giving?
Uh, you are going to have to leave me out of this one. I think you should go back and read the exchange between NOP and I. He answered my point, and he did it very clearly. There is nothing left to debate.
This is one of the things I so admire about NOP. He hears me, he listens to my point of view, which he may or may not agree with... and then he responds. NOP told me how he is. He wasn't asking me or anyone else to agree with him. And he is completely fine with that. He is telling you the same thing.... he's told that to you in several different ways... you just aren't hearing him. But... I admire your pluck.
Corri
Lillieperl wrote:
---------------------------------------------------
I've given this question a LOT of thought over the last almost five years-- a L-O-T of thought. I'll start a new thread and answer it a bit later today. It'a a very good question, a key question for me. I have a feeling my answer may not apply to your dad's sitch.
---------------------------------------------------
Even if it doesn't apply, I very much look forward to reading it.
Thank you.
-NOPkins-
Wow, just read all 13 pages of that thread.
Fascinating.
No input, but just wanted to say everyone on this board has got a little of their own "nuttiness" to overcome.
Maybe that is why it is so fun to read. Makes you think...at least I'm not alone out here. And such different perspectives, wow.
Good luck Choco. Hope it works out for you.
LFL
NOP you said you would spend a couple of days in jail for breaking a guy's jaw. I don't think a couple of days would do it for the courts and the lawyers these days once you are an adult. Kid on kid, sure a couple of days for fighting.
I was suspended for 5 days and had a state investigator and a child psychologist look at an incident for half a day because one kid in my care was having a temper tantrum. I pulled on his shirt sleeve and said settle down. It was a 2 second reprimand from me.
I never thought anything of it but a kid I wrote up for being drunk, turned it into a child-protective service case. The kid who’s sleeve I pulled wasn’t concerned about me pulling his sleeve till the other boys wanted to make trouble for me. They did their payback thing “lets make trouble for Lou.”
After the investigator heard everything he said to me “they all had different stories” so I went back to work after being off for a week.
I know juvenile and adult laws are different but I wouldn't trust that the truth would prevail in either an adult or juvenile case. It is who has the better lawyer and who can tell the more believable story. Truth helps but doesn't always win a case.
Many years ago you could have gotten a light sentence for jealous acts of violence. I think those days of light sentences are over. Lawyers get behind clients, and it becomes a $$$$ contest.
The broken jaw/jail time is most likely a mute point IRL. I don't see either one of you stepping over the line after all the work you both did to get to where you are.
Good luck Choco. Hope things are working for you.
Lou
If you the man, the scriptural head of the household, the biological protector, and the emotional tuning fork dont know what you want or even that you want her, let alone what decision to make, then to paraphrase David Deida, what the heck does she 'need' you for?
Exactly. I do not need my H for anything - he does not provide anything - except for the paycheck he works so hard for. But like I said on Crazy Eddie's thread I'd get that if we D anyhow. Tonight another prime example - he was working all day even though it's Saturday, moving chairs and setting up servers and such in his new office. He came home, ate, went upstairs to say goodnight to the kids and then didn't come back down - just went to bed. I can appreciate he is whacked out - but a simple "honey, I'm bushed I'm having an early night" and kiss would not have gone amiss.
As for Nop's jaw-breaking line: I didn't see that as macho BS I saw that as intended as pre-emptive. It is as Mojo would put it pissing a circle around the W and that makes HER feel protected and cherished. If my H said something like that to me it would make my heart skip a beat even though I know IRL he would no sooner break someone's jaw than rob a bank.
A line my mother taught me and I have used it to good effect in both my LTRs is "if you were ever to lay a finger on me in anger you'd never see me again". Said it to both of them in the early stages of the R before such things would ever seem imaginable. It's a boundary and it works. I later found out that the exBF did hit the OW (she'd been hit before in other R's).
People beat up on each other in their own houses and yet they can get frustrated and angry in the workplace and never a suspicion of violence. They maintain control. Despite denial of being able to do so at home.
You just need to say these things sometimes to make it clear to other people where the boundaries are. And make it clear that they have responsibility for their own actions.
Fran
Chrome,
I need to figure out why I am in this self-destructive mode. My finances are screwed up, my marriage is screwed up, and all I can muster is a bad case of don'tgiveashitness.
My wife's trainer is now sending her text messages on her phone. He wants to know when they're going to "hang out" again. He's called her, including tonite when she said she had to run to the store to get flowers for her mother for Mother's Day, while I was home cooking a nice steak dinner for her and our family.
[b My finances are screwed up, my marriage is screwed up..[/b] Text messages about haning out? OH GREAT!
Is it time to repo the BMW?
I am with you chocolateeyes.
Lou
Choc,
you can start taking some internal baby stepts to changer your manifested behavior.
1) stop all the thought processes that run along the lines of 'I give her my heart/soul/love and she stomps on my heart.
She doesnt want the ability to hurt you. so stop giving it to her.
2) stop thinking about what life would be like if you were to get divorced. Its mental sabotage. Stop planning for what you really dont want to have happen. See where you want to be, make it a goal, and created steps for yourself to get there.
My wife's trainer is now sending her text messages on her phone. He wants to know when they're going to "hang out" again. He's called her, including tonite when she said she had to run to the store to get flowers for her mother for Mother's Day, while I was home cooking a nice steak dinner for her and our family.
the next time he txts her, pick up the phone press the call button and when he answers it, Say in your strong voice cheerfully..
Hello Mr.jerkwad. (dont really say that you can think it really loud though.) We are spending the evening together as a family. If you need to reach Mrs. Choco about anything work related feel free to call the house, but try not to make it a habit. Cool? Thanks.
it may not do anything, your wife will probably be embarassed or protest, but at least you are pissing your circle.
Choc, these guys want what you have because you are the top guy. You have the big house, and the beautiful wife and the family, and back in hs and college were pretty damn good with the ladies. Everone wants to shoot at the guy on top and try to take what he has to see if they measure up.
I just finished slogging through this rollercoaster thread.
Nice thread title, Choco. Suckered me right in.
So many topics for comment I can't even think where to begin.
I have not posted in over two months and back then I felt your R was already at critical mass. NOPkins felt as well.
Seeing as how your thread is currently way off topic I will steer it back to you, Chocolate Eyes.
I am simply amazed the sharp folks on SSM let this one go without comment:
Choco said:
"btw, my keylogger caught the following from my wife about two weeks ago:
"OLDER WOMAN-YOUNGER-MAN RELATIONSHIPS"
The wise sage once said, what you focus upon expands.
Turns out my warnings from 2 months ago are beginning to come to fruition after all. NOPkins' too.
The cancer is spreading...
You want singular alpha ideas as to how to react to your W's tardiness. Words. IMO you are way beyond words. There is no alpha response. The thread question breaks down at square one.
Why?
Because alphas don't live life reacting to bad F behavior. (Weak) Betas live life in constant reactive mode. Alphas are proactive. Alphas have objectives. Alphas are in firm control of their own destinies at all times, with or without an F in the picture.
What the hell is your objective? For the life of me I cannot figure this out from any of your posts.
A long time ago I promised I would not again address the alpha male mentality in this forum. Why? Because I realized my thread bashing myself for my beta male behavior made a beta male personality look like a bad thing. IMO it isn't.
I had a recent revelation about how I ascribed too much importance in the past on the alpha trait in terms of Rs. Yes, it is important. Definitely. To keep your F and R in line. And, yes, it comes in handy in business on occasion as well. But it's only half of the grater whole. the other half is what I've found to be the prince vs. the king mind set. And who do I have to thank for this revelation?
Donald Trump. But I don't have time to explain on your thread as it is off topic.
Again, too many things swirling around in my head. Perhaps I can post in chunks. Shrug. All I know for sure is you are in dire need of seeing the forest for the trees, my honorable friend.
-Stigmata-