First, an update on what is actually happening in my relationship before I launch another one of my theoretical essays.-LOL. My poor H has prostatitis and a macular edema. So, I've basically been playing Nurse Mojo for the last couple weeks. In a moment of idiocy yesterday morning my H told me that he had forgotten all about Valentine's Day but then he redeemed himself by buying me some flowers and chocolate. He wrote "To My Sweet Honey. Thanks for being mine." on the enclosed card.
If you combine that with the fact that on my recent Bday card he wrote that he "owed" me about 10 years of fun, you can kind of get the vibe of where our relationship is at the moment.
Now I will segue into my new theme/theory. I think that relationship-based LD (as opposed to essential LD) is linked to being the member of a relationship who feels least like the relationship is supporting their concept of an ideal lifestyle. Quite often when HD people join this BB they post things like "Everything about our marriage is great except no sex." which really means "I am desperately unhappy about the lack of sex and emotional intimacy in my marriage but I am unwilling to rock the boat because my other lifestyle needs are being well supported by this marriage.". Some "lifestyle" needs might be financial support, social network, religious beliefs, romantic ideals, child care, various forms of ego support etc.. If you close your eyes and picture an ideal scene of what your life would be like on a perfect day that is your ideal lifestyle.
The trap many HD people get themselves into is that they take on sole responsibility for "fighting" to include sex in the ideal lifestyle of their marriage or at least make it a much higher priority. Pretty much that is what makes them HD. IMO there are three ways to overcome this.
The first way is to accept and understand that your partner has different lifestyle priorities and to try and achieve a better balance by doing more to meet your partner's needs. For instance, in my relationship my H is more "comfort" oriented while I am more "fun" oriented. The reason why there is a tone of gratitude in his recent notes to me is that he understands that I have done a lot to meet his need for "comfort" rather than push for my own need for "fun". He knows that doing this is making me kind of depressed and LD and therefore throwing the balance of the relationship in the other direction.
The second way to "rebalance" the relationship is to "force" your spouse to recognize the lifestyle value inherent in the relationship that they are currently discounting. This is what saying "I will not stay in a sexless marriage." does. It forces your spouse to envision a lifestyle without you. This causes a rise in psychological sex drive proportional to the loss of lifestyle envisioned.
The third way to "rebalance" is to simply change your own concept of what you consider an ideal lifestyle. For instance, the simplest solution to no longer being unhappily HD is to tell yourself that you really don't care that much about sex. Delink sex from romance or love or security or self-esteem needs in your own mind. Most of the "formerly" HD women on this BB have chosen this option to some extent. For instance, both HP and I (probably the most formerly HD of the women on this BB) have at least gone so far as to tell ourselves that we know longer want to self-identify as HD and have chosen to stop initiating sex. Of course there all sorts of other variations of this. For instance, a HD guy could decide that his post-divorce "fantasy/nightmare" of living in a trailer with a HD woman after his wife took him to the cleaners in divorce court would be a preferable option to living in middle class comfort without sex.
IMO and experience, though each of these methods work, you can only go so far with each one. Using only method 1 will lead to you becoming LD for the relationship and perhaps sex. Using only method 2 would require superhuman will and bravery. Using only method 3 can cause you to mistake self-deception for personal growth.
MJontheMend:
The third way to "rebalance" is to simply change your own concept of what you consider an ideal lifestyle. For instance, the simplest solution to no longer being unhappily HD is to tell yourself that you really don't care that much about sex. Delink sex from romance or love or security or self-esteem needs in your own mind.
I can see that this might work with women, but as a HD man, I can't see this ever working. I understand that sex is a decision for some people (LD's) but for me, sex is NOT a decision. My body reminds me of sex 24/7, there is no way to turn it off without chemicals. So chosing to not be physical means being tormented by it forever.
My body reminds me of sex 24/7
If you're being reminded of sex 24/7 then your mind is playing a big role, too.
Cemar, you are a very valuable member of this community simply because you consistently reinforce what I said about the dangers of going whole-hog for option 3. No one ever has to say "Cemar, to thine own self be true.". OTOH, the example that I gave was very simplistic. You, for instance, could decide that your ideal lifestyle would include having daily video web chat sex with anonymous women. You could adjust your morals rather than your hormones. Of course, you might have to adjust your style a bit too. For instance, if I were you I wouldn't come right out with that blow-job-neediness groove of yours. Good Luck!
Interesting points MJ. I think incorporating a little of all three ways is a possibility. I see a little of H and I in many of the things you noted. And yes, I see option 3 as being fairly successful for many of the HD women on this board.
I disagree with Cemar that men cannot attain option 3. Ok, I'll give you the fact that men may be driven biologically more by sex than women but it's hardly opposite sides of the spectrum. If it was, we wouldn't have so many LD men out there.
I also see HD people using the whole "but I can't control my needs/wants" idea as an excuse to stand firmly entrenched in their own viewpoint. And thus, make no M progress.
Marriage demands some compromise.
LustForLife:
As a HD man, what can I do to control the desire for sex? Without chemicals, there is absolutely nothing that can lower the desire for sex. Asking a man to lower his sex drive is like asking him to stop breathing. There is no on/off switch for the sex drive. It is on full power at ALL times.
If there was some way to turn it off, I would LOVE to here it, it definitely would make life more bearable. Everything I have ever tried actually makes it HIGHER!
Cemar:
Barring the horror story of alter boys and such, priests and monks 'control' their sex drives for most of their lives.
I realize you didn't choose to be a priest or a monk, but that does not negate the fact that it can be controlled. What you are talking about is much akin to an addict or someone who is just taking on any new discipline... the moment you decide to go on a diet, you are hungry. The moment you quit smoking, all you want is a cigarette, etc., etc., etc.
And... let's face it... you can have sex whenever you want it. It's just not the kind of sex you desire... so really, what you are talking about is not sex... it's about being able to control another's desire... which is out of your realm of control. Which drives you nuts.
So really, you don't have a 'sex' problem. You have a 'control' problem.
Corri
Barring the horror story of alter boys and such, priests and monks 'control' their sex drives for most of their lives.
what makes you think that? don't you suppose that a low libido might be part of the reason that these men choose this avocation?
They don't "control" it; they just don't have it. (or much of one).
Most "thin" people aren't thin because they have superior self-disipline; they're thin because they don't have much of an appetite.
Some of us have much more strongly developed famine avoidance instincts.
I realize you didn't choose to be a priest or a monk, but that does not negate the fact that it can be controlled.
The only thing you can control is how you act upon it. you can't just blink and make it go away, any more than you can "control" hunger when you're on a diet. you can tolerate it...to a point. but 95% of diets eventually fail.
Cac:
what makes you think that? don't you suppose that a low libido might be part of the reason that these men choose this avocation? They don't "control" it; they just don't have it. (or much of one).
I don't agree. There is an extensive evidence of Taoist/Buddhist practice that suggests otherwise. It is a re-channeling of sexual energy.
I don't know what priests do, but I think it is faulty logic to say that All priests don't have sexual desire, therefore, that is how they 'control' it.
Also, to say that "most 'thin' people are thin' because they don't have much of an appetite is equally erroneous logic. It simply is not true. There are a multitude of factors that go into this, and yes, some thin people ARE thin through superior self-discipline.
The only thing you can control is how you act upon it. You can't just blink and make it go away.
Exactly. But Cemar doesn't have a problem with getting sex or even keeping testosterone levels down (say through MB). He has a very specific WANT of desire and affection from his wife.
That is a control (of another) problem. Not controlling
his sexual desire problem.
Corri
[quote=Corri]Cac:
...I think it is faulty logic to say that All priests don't have sexual desire, therefore, that is how they 'control' it.
I didn't say that. ("ALL") and it wouldn't be "control", any more than a basketball player can "control" his height.
"gee, I'm 7 feet tall. maybe I should check out basketball. Its quite possible that I'd be well suited to that profession".
"gee, I'm really devoted to this faith, and I so enjoy helping people, yadda yadda yadda...and I don't like girls all that much..."
OR..."but, I'm kind of a horn-dog, so maybe I should get married and make a bunch of kids instead"
iow: they find their avocations the same way that the rest of us do. I'm not pursuing an NBA career, at least in part, because of my height. its just who I am.
Also, to say that "most 'thin' people are thin' because they don't have much of an appetite is equally erroneous logic. It simply is not true.
let me put it this way: their appetites generally match their metabolism. There's lots of data to support it; it isn't "erroneous" logic. The American College of Endocrinology has changed their assesment of what constitutes "normal" thyroid levels 3 or 4 times in the last few years...meaning, people who were told yesterday that they were simply 'undisciplined' are being told now, "oh, you have a metabolic problem".
There are a multitude of factors that go into this, and yes, some thin people ARE thin through superior self-discipline.
sure there are. when I say "thin people", I mean people who were born that way, and always have been that way. amongst those who weren't, and attempt to change themselves, 95% of them fail. they can't *control* it. you can try to deprive yourself of basic instinctive bodily urges...some few may attain a mystical zen-like mastery over them, but that is the exception, and not the rule.
Same goes for all those who (apparently) tried to use the priesthood to hide from their urges...didn't work out too well.
But Cemar doesn't have a problem with getting sex or even keeping testosterone levels down (say through MB).
maybe our problem here is that we're bouncing between the figurative and the literal...but in the literal sense, that has nothing to do w/ testosterone levels.
Cac:
I see where you are coming from on the height and weight aspect... the preist argument... let's agree to disagree on that one. Maybe Honeypot will comment.
As for CeMar... do I think he can literally control the physcial level of the sex drive he was born with... make it different, physcially, than it is? No. I agree with you he can only control how he chooses to act (or not) act upon it.
But CeMar is not a victim of his physical drive. He can and does get sex. It just isn't the kind of sex he wants... which, literally, is a different type of drive. He doesn't want to control this drive, he wants to control his wife's drive.
That's what I was talking about. I don't know about you.
Corri
CeMar,
If you really want to become more LD you can. It is more difficult for a man physically to become LD because of higher testosterone levels and it is more difficult for a man psychologically because of the lack of positive male LD archetypes to role model. Unlike Mr. HP, most men don't want to role model being a priest or a monk. However, there are several other male roles you could take on if you want to be LD. You can become a knight of courtly love worshiping the madonna-like pristine goddess who is your wife with no desire to defile her with your animalistic sexuality. Or you could become the Proud-to Be-Lazy couch potato guy who probably would like to f*ck his wife sometime if he thought about it but right now it's the middle of Latin American Style Golf season so maybe tomorrow. Or you could become the Beautiful Loser who can't get a break in this hard cruel world and can't understand why his woman is so lacking in the sort of empathy and understanding that would make her more attractive to f*ck. Or you could be the anal-retentive workaholic type who sets his own standards very high and can't possibly be with a woman who doesn't meet those standards as in "She must be crazy to think that she looks attractive in those pants and how can I possibly relax enough to f*ck in such a messy bedroom?".
In practice becoming more LD can be learned like a parlor trick. At first you might need some pretty blunt force self-applied aversion therapy in order to do it. For instance, let's say you and your wife are sitting watching TV having snacks in the family room some evening. You look over at her and start getting turned on. Once you are aware that this is happening, simply substitute an appropriate LD mental thought based on the psychological male archetype that you have chosen for the HD mental thought you are having. For instance, let's say you are thinking "Mmmm, my wife's breasts look really lush in that tight t-shirt. I wish I could be the pudding she's licking off her spoon.". If you have chosen the madonna-worshipping archetype you could tell yourself to think the thought "I am a crude slobbering hairy ape. I can't possibly defile the breasts that have fed my infant sons with my repulsive desire. Look at how sweet she looks eating pudding like a little girl in a picture of innocence.". If you have told yourself that you are the anal-retentive guy you could substitute the thought "That t-shirt is too tight. Probably because she still hasn't lost the weight from kid 3. I wish I was married to a woman who gave a f*ck about her appearance. Look at her shoveling in that pudding. How repulsive.". If you have chosen "lazy" guy, you can just think "Breasts, maybe....Okay commercial over back to the show! Aaaaah...Pudding and TV. Nothing beats that combination.". If you have chosen "Beautiful Loser" you can think "She has that tight t-shirt on. F*ck. She probably expects to get laid. Doesn't she understand that my cr*ppy job is sucking the life out of me? Look at her lost in her happy little land of 'Everything is wonderful if I can have some sex and pudding'. She has no depth of feeling or empathy. She is sucking the life out of me just like my job.".
Remember, practice makes perfect. Visualize yourself as LD. Adopt LD mindset and behavior and soon you will be LD. However, bear in mind the advice some old wise crone may have given you in your youth "Don't cross your eyes like that or they might stay that way.".
As a HD man,
Id like to understand a few things better.
Are you a HD man, or are you HD in the context of your M in comparison to your wife. The differance is important to coming up with a plan. Know thyself.
If you feel you are a HD man, what makes you think that?
What actions in the past, or other evidence (such as metabolic make up and physiological anaylsis) do you have for thinking you are a HD man.
Do you want to have sex 2x a day at least, and 8 times on the weekends? Do you want it 6x a week? 3 x? Or do you just want it more then your W.
what can I do to control the desire for sex? This suggests that you are a HD man. It also suggests that its just sex you crave and has nothing to do with your W, how you feel about her, how she treats you or how she feels about you or the emotions she has to deal with during sex. I wonder how that makes her feel.
Without chemicals, there is absolutely nothing that can lower the desire for sex. Asking a man to lower his sex drive is like asking him to stop breathing. There is no on/off switch for the sex drive. It is on full power at ALL times.
Yeah I almost agree with you on this. .... Yep I agree. however in the context of a specific woman, its very easy to change the desire for her specifically. You just pick something you dislike about her and focus on it. Its called perspective control.
If there was some way to turn it off, I would LOVE to here it, it definitely would make life more bearable.
If there were a way for me to have the body of Atlas, the money of Bill Gates, and as many wives as Soloman, While being able spend my days eating chips and playing video games, I would LOVE to hear it. Man life would be sweet.
seriously, We have been over this allready.
Everything I have ever tried actually makes it HIGHER!
I agree with that too, wholeheartedly. Improving yourself, does in fact give you confidance,value/entitlement.
For someone who is obsessively focused on their own sex drive, but craves desire from someone else, it would seem more prudent to focus on what causes desire. That being said, Desire like you want from your W, is intended to perpetuate the species, and hold a couple together long enough to accomplish that. Seems you have accomplished that. Maybe you need to change your wants to something more realistic and attainable.
CeMar, I love you. Right now you are my favorite person on this BB. You gave me back what I've recently lost with your insanely resistant to peer pressure brand of high sex drive. I realized all the talk on this BB recently which equates being feminine with all the girlish arts of picking out nail polish, being fitted for a corset, learning to bat your eyelashes at the boys, projecting helplessness, getting fake boobs, getting your feet bound in infancy so that your walk becomes delicate and mincing and the curled deformity of your feet is seductive because it so resembles the pale virginity of an unfurled peony is making me SICK!SICK!SICK!
Here is how you have sex like a WOMAN. You stand strong on the fertile earth because your legs are strong and your wide hips give you balance. You carry a baby on one hip and seed for your garden in your free hand. Your body is perfectly feminine because the baby nestles perfectly in the curvature of your waist and the baby's head comes to rest right on the pillow of your breast. You drop the seed and plant the crop that you will tend to feed your children. This is your work and you are proud and pleased that you have the will and the strength to do this work. Through all of history in times of famine or war you persevere. Every man that was ever a baby was fed by your hand and carried on your ample hip.
The spring sun warms your body as you plant the new crop. Across the garden a man works also or perhaps you see him approaching as he returns from the hunt. The warmth of the sun spreads downwards . The man comes near. You smile at him as the whole gravity of the earth and the heat of the sun gathers in the core of your being. The rhythm of your blood rises like the tides of the ocean.
If the man returns your smile and brings his own strength to bear then you fall to the earth like all your mothers before you. Soon that's all you'll be, just a memory in the matriarchal line of mitochondria but right now is your time. You are the woman. You spread your legs. You raise your hips. You howl at the moon or you sink into the ocean. You smile again.
But what if the man doesn't return your smile? What if the man is unable to being his own strength to bear? How can you be a woman? Hush. Don't worry. Drop seed. Carry baby. A man will come.
My way is clear. I can't be a girl again. It would be like trying to squeeze myself back into the jeans I wore in 7th grade. I have to be a woman and if I have to choose between being a woman or a wife, I will choose to be a woman as nature, not society, made me.
I love you guys. I wish you all great joy on your journey.
We love you too, Mojo.
Maybe someday, some life, we'll meet in the garden. However, I'll probably sneak up behind you while you're planting your seeds. That's the way, as KC said, I like it.
Hairdog, who knows how frustrating life can be.
Hairdog, who knows how frustrating life can be.
Probably more so than most of us here
Now, what's this about sneaking up behind Jenny and planting your seed?
Maybe someday, some life, we'll meet in the garden. However, I'll probably sneak up behind you while you're planting your seeds. That's the way, as KC said, I like it.
And I would probably smile at your boyish behavior but that's not what you need to do. You need to walk straight up to the woman in your wife with your eyes wide open. Don't be a boy and don't expect her to play the girl so you can feel more like a man. If you can approach her straight on with respect and love you will have everything you need and want no matter how she responds because you will be a man and you will know it.
New sig. (at least for a while...)
(humbled)
Yes. You are right.
And Burg, if I bothered to use the "signature" function, I would totally kick yer azz to get that one. It's personalized.
Hairdog - who makes up his signatures as he goes along.
Btw, I think after you've established their trust in your being a man, women totally dig a little boyish play.
New sig. (at least for a while...)
Thank you and you're welcome.
Btw, I think after you've established their trust in your being a man, women totally dig a little boyish play.
Of course. There's nothing wrong with being girlish either. We all like to feel or remember that sort of fresh green new growth of horniness we had when we were boys and girls. The point I am trying to make is that our mature sexuality needs to come from strong perennial root stock rather than from throwing Miracle Grow on an old packet of seeds or a blighted plant. Those of us who are HD definitely need to hard prune back the diseased part of our drive but we should never ever forget that our sex drive does have a deep healthy grounded aspect. When we say "I will not stay in a sex-starved marriage" what we are really saying is "My root stock is strong and I will grow and bear fruit with or without your continued care. I will trust in the sun and the rain of the garden and refuse to leave myself to wilt neglected on your windowsill.".
Without resorting to analogy the point I was trying to make about not being a boy is obvious. The point I was trying to make about not asking a woman to act like a girl is that if you use the sort of masculine tricks that attract the girl in a woman then you will never be able to trust or respect her because you have made a sexual contract with the part of her that is not an adult and you can't expect a child to honor a contract. Those sort of masculine tricks will work every time. They would definitely work on me but not a healthy, mature part of me. That is why I recommend that men shouldn't use them.
What kind of tricks? Give examples.
Here is how you have sex like a WOMAN. but right now is your time....But what if the man doesn't return your smile? What if the man is unable to being his own strength to bear? How can you be a woman? Hush. Don't worry. Drop seed. Carry baby. A man will come.
"You need to walk straight up to the woman in your wife with your eyes wide open. Don't be a boy and don't expect her to play the girl so you can feel more like a man." -- Jenny
I loved the post Jenny. It portrays that men have to play their part so the woman can play her part.
Lou
if you use the sort of masculine tricks that
Maybe I am clueless, but I don't think I use any tricks.
Maybe cooking lunch and going out for dinner carries some expectations, but Tricks????? I thought it was just being nice and nice would be returned.
Lou
Okay, we're all baffled. These tricks you speak of, what be they?
Hairdog, who only knows one trick, involving the simulated severing of his left index finger, but who has been amazing audiences with it for decades.
You saying you won't turn tricks Lou?
Jenny, I loved your how to have sex like a woman. Kind of underscores the need to be a man, don't it! No doubt today's society and it's feminization of men has brought forth a crop of men who don't play the part of being a man very well, myself included.
What kind of tricks did you have in mind GGB?
No, I was saying life is too complicated to remember to play tricks on another person to get what I want.
I withdraw, I detach but I don't use lines or imitate other men that have a reputation for being ladies men. WYSIWYG=what you see is what you get.
today's society and it's feminization of men has brought forth a crop of men who don't play the part of being a man very well, myself included.
Add some co-dependency and some FOO, and some political correct stuff, I see where I am missing the polarity model.
What kind of tricks? Give examples.What kind of tricks? Give examples.
Let me explain. The cultural myth is that what women want sexually is romance. Women do want romance. It makes them feel warm, fuzzy, cared for and appreciated. It does not usually make them hot. Most females, most of the time whether LD or HD are sexual "bottoms". Therefore, what they want sexually is to be dominated. Any man who has mastered the "tricks" of being a strong "top" sexually will have no trouble getting action. Most of the advice that BF is offering the other men is valid because he is trying to demonstrate how to be a strong "top". IMO this is "valid" advice but not "good" advice. Here's why. BF made the point that most of the time if he tells a woman what to do she will do it. This is because of the woman's Pavlovian response as a sexual "bottom". OTOH, as we all know, if a HDM in any way tries to placate a woman in an attempt to get sex he is doomed to failure because he is acting too much like a "bottom". My point is that there is a difference between being a strong man sexually and being a strong "top" sexually. If you "tell" a woman to be sexual she probably won't say "no" but if you "ask" a woman to be sexual she might say "yes" with a part of her that is better, more whole, than just her "bottom" instinct. But it takes a strong man to risk hearing "no" in that way.
if you "ask" a woman to be sexual she might say "yes" with a part of her that is better, more whole, than just her "bottom" instinct. But it takes a strong man to risk hearing "no" in that way.
Oh. My. God. I must be the freakin' strongest Hercules here. I am the Hulk Hogan of SSM Land. Tremble before me, all you puny weaklings!
(I actually get what you're saying. It just doesn't seem to work with Ms.Hdog.)
Hairdog
So give me a specific example of a trick a guy might use.
Cemar,
I think you have a point. For sure, HD men have a harder row to hoe than HD women because we do not have gobs of testosterone freaking up our resolve to act a certain way or achieve this or that goal. It's quite easy for a woman to say, "Distract yourself" blah blah but the reality is that this is no more possible than it is for a man to tell a woman not to be hormonal during That Time.
So, I guess it gets you off the hook as far as your semi-regular episodes of passively psychotic behavior but it doesn't get you off the hook for being too chicken to force changes in your M. Now, don't give me that baloney about the LD controlling the M and all that...just don't.
Understand that, as the man, you have a harder job than your wife does and accept it and step up to the plate. Be willing to channel your sexual frustrations into overturning your non-confrontational instincts and then report back to us.
Cac,
Have you ever read anything written by priests about the sublimation of their sex drive? I used to think as you do--and still struggle with it--but I've since read things written by priests about this very subject and it was enlightening to say the least. I was most surprised by the idea that these are just regular guys, regular joes, and not naturally LD. They just felt the calling that strongly. Say, aren't you the guy who had to give up his passion for flying? Well, if so, imagine that I told you that you could fly all you wanted to but could never be with a woman again. What would you choose? Well, the answer is irrelevant but I hope you get my drift..
IMO this is "valid" advice but not "good" advice.
I kinda disagree. I like the part where a woman can say "yes" with a part of her that is better and more whole than just her bottom instinct. I suspect, though, that just as there aren't that many guys with what I'll call the "masculine energy" of blackfoot, there aren't that many women ready to say "yes" with that better and more whole part.
What I've seen is that the woman is often anxious the next morning. Will the man even be able to look at her, much less accept her? Over the course of time, after continual acceptance of her for the way she wants to be, she begins to believe that not only is she accepted but even loved and desired for that part of herself she wants to give. Then she's capable of saying "yes" from that better, more whole place.
The same thing is true of men trying out their "masculine energy" for what's probably the first time.
I personally think getting rejected for "telling" is tougher to take than getting rejected for "asking", because asking is practically inviting a "no". "Telling" puts a lot more at risk.
OTOH, as we all know, if a HDM in any way tries to placate a woman in an attempt to get sex he is doomed to failure because he is acting too much like a "bottom".
I disagree. Women are pretty forgiving as long as they still see at least the potential for receiving "masculine energy" from their man. Maybe not LD women who have their guard up, but women in general.
So give me a specific example of a trick a guy might use.
Well, I want to say it's not what he does but how he does it but I know you will accuse me of deflecting.-LOL.
A slightly more specific answer might be anything that Jack Nicholson does. His entire personality is "top".
Specific example from my own life might be the time I was at a party playing cards with some friends. A man I knew only slightly was seated next to me at the table. He took my hand under the table and held it gently but firmly like you might hold the hand of a child crossing the street. He didn't touch me in any other way but he proceeded to intermittently throughout the game whisper in my ear just exactly what he was going to do to me later.
If a guy does something like this and it feels like a tactic or a trick to me, it is a turn-off. Is that what you mean? I don't like a guy "using" something that I feel like he saw in a movie some time in the last week.
This would only be a turn-off with a guy you didn't know very well-- a new guy. If your long-time partner did this, it would very much BE a turn-on.
I've kind of lost the point of this whole train of thought...
The only movie I ever thought Jack Nicholson was sexy in was "Reds" where he played Eugene O'Neill. Pure masculine energy. His part is small but mighty.
His recent movies where he's been cranky and quirky-- yuck! "As Good As It Gets"?-- double yuck. (And it's not about his age.)
What I've seen is that the woman is often anxious the next morning. Will the man even be able to look at her, much less accept her? Over the course of time, after continual acceptance of her for the way she wants to be, she begins to believe that not only is she accepted but even loved and desired for that part of herself she wants to give. Then she's capable of saying "yes" from that better, more whole place.
I'm only going to disagree with you a little bit. I think what you are saying is that even women who want to own their own sexuality still feel compelled to ask permission to own it. I'm certain I've given off that vibe myself but it does vary. I have a vivid memory of being 21 and walking home barefoot in a little white dress down the city streets early one summer morning after a casual sexual encounter just humming to myself with satisfaction. A woman can only freely, generously give that part of her sexuality which she does own herself. Of course, a woman who owns her own sexuality is scarey as h*ll to most men because she can choose to give it to whomever she wants. The point I am trying to make is that a woman who owns her own sexuality is actually more responsible as a sexual partner in the same way that a person who owns their own home is more responsible than a renter. People always care for things they own and value and sexuality is no exception.
Feeling that ownership after a casual sexual encounter is a lot easier than feeling it day after day in a long term R... through arguments, illnesses, dirty underwear, tantrums, ED episodes, weight gains, and the other hazards of being with anyone for a long period of time.
Sure when you give it one time or a few times to a guy, you feel certain of your ownership... but do you still feel that certainty after years with the same guy? Especially if he starts to feel "entitled" to it. (I realize that's not the problem in your sitch, but it is in some here.)
It's like if you loan your lawnmower to your neighbor a time or two, you know it's still yours. But if it sits unused in his garage year after year, whose is it really? (Okay, bad analogy.)
It's like if you loan your lawnmower to your neighbor a time or two, you know it's still yours. But if it sits unused in his garage year after year, whose is it really? (Okay, bad analogy.)
No, Good analogy Lil. I can feel the analogy, Hairdog too most likely.
t's like if you loan your lawnmower to your neighbor a time or two, you know it's still yours. But if it sits unused in his garage year after year, whose is it really? (Okay, bad analogy.)
It's yours again as soon as you exercise your will to claim it. Now, I've been HD my whole sexual life but lately I've been relatively LD and depressed about it and I had to ask myself why? The answer is that I gave up ownership of my sexuality. I gave it up because I felt guilty about being a HD woman. However, I've realized that what I really should have felt guilty about is being angry at my husband for being LD relative to me. That anger represented my desire to own his sexuality and that desire was bad and wrong. My desire to own my own HD sexuality is right and good. I know it is because it brings me deep joy. OTOH,trying to own my H's sexuality brought me only strife and sorrow.
My jingle is back only it's more like a huge gonging bell. Before I posted my vision of myself as a woman in the field, I had a memory of myself at about age 11 or 12 on the verge of puberty. It was a summer evening and I was in my baby sister's sandbox. I took off most of my clothing and covered myself with wet sand. As I did this I was conscious of the fact that it might be the last time that I would feel so childishly free with my body. That memory is a bead on the string that represents my sexuality which will always belong to me. When a man gifts me with his sexuality, it's like I take a bead off this chain and offer it in exchange and my sexuality becomes a bit of a charm bracelet with all the tokens that men have given me since one first held my hand in 5th Grade but the string and the beads are always mine. I will keep on adding beads even if I never have sex with a man again.
Jenny, You are such a cool lady. I wonder if you ever read The Red Tent...your sensuality reminds me of Leah, just so of the earth. I am happy your jingle is back.
I have been relatively LD ( esp. compared to the way I was when I joined the board). Being an old Pink Floyd fan, I have to say I feel comfortably LD. I now have confidence my sensuality is there if I make an effort, but it's not high on the list. It feels like a healthy balance for me, after such swings in my sexuality.
Welcome home.
IHJ wrote
I now have confidence my sensuality is there if I make an effort, but it's not high on the list.
I kind of feel this way, too. I feel like when I joined this board I wasn't wanting sex for its own sake or for pure expression or even for the pleasure of intimacy and closeness with my bf. I wanted it to affirm me, to prove that I was okay, normal, good enough, attractive. That's why his WANTING to have sex was just as important or even more important than DOING IT.
With all the internal changes I've been going through, I'm much more relaxed about the whole thing.
"The Red Tent" is one of my most FAVORITE novels of all time! I think every woman on this board would ADORE it! The guys probably would, too. I was in a class with my late H years ago and I loaned it to one of the people in the class. It started going from hand to hand, and I didn't get it back for TWO YEARS. I heard Anita Diamant (BTW she pronounces it exactly like "diamond" but with a "t" sound at the end instead of a "d") speak about writing the book. She's a journalist and researcher and the book is painstakingly authentic as far as setting, customs, etc. I remember as I got close to the end, I kept reading slower and slower, because I didn't want it to end.
Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Tent-Anita-Diamant/dp/0312195516/ref=ed_oe_p/103-8593354-4025468(note that it gets 4 stars on 1,316 reviews)
Therefore, what they want sexually is to be dominated. Any man who has mastered the "tricks" of being a strong "top" sexually will have no trouble getting action. Most of the advice that BF is offering the other men is valid because he is trying to demonstrate how to be a strong "top". IMO this is "valid" advice but not "good" advice. Here's why. BF made the point that most of the time if he tells a woman what to do she will do it. This is because of the woman's Pavlovian response as a sexual "bottom". OTOH, as we all know, if a HDM in any way tries to placate a woman in an attempt to get sex he is doomed to failure because he is acting too much like a "bottom". My point is that there is a difference between being a strong man sexually and being a strong "top" sexually. If you "tell" a woman to be sexual she probably won't say "no" but if you "ask" a woman to be sexual she might say "yes" with a part of her that is better, more whole, than just her "bottom" instinct. But it takes a strong man to risk hearing "no" in that way.
Mojo, manytimes your posts and analogies are simply brilliant. [cough]This is not one of those times. [cough] I think your work out burned some fat cells and released some latent THC from your youth.
hehe.
I wouldnt call it a pavlovian response. Ive never said anything about telling a woman to have sex with you. [snort] Id love to see someone try that. Ive also never talked about using 'tricks' or tactics. They DO NOT work. Thats what a womans testing is designed to expose and eliminate. Some just dont know when to stop, because its harming them, not protecting them.
OG is right on the money with WYSIWYG.
a couple days ago when I mentioned the word 'tricks' I wasnt referring to tactics, I was referring to sticking to R's that had no future.
There is nothing strong or masculine about appealing to the girl. You are right about that. Women dont approach that, they settle for it. That kind of activity is for entertaining monkeys, men with no boundaries and guys who have nothing better to do then chase after whatever will say yes. Like the salsmen who go for the shotgun approach of asking 100 and hoping for 1.
It will occasionally git them one night. Its not going to do anything whatsoever for HD.
There is nothing wrong with a little levity here and there to show you dont take yourself so serious. I actually have to remind myself, because when I become stressed or busy, I turn into the emotionless 'robot'. I dont have time for ridiculous, irrelevant emotions. unfortunately thats not toungue in cheek.
It would be nice to encounter a woman who didnt personalize that and could point it out in positive way when I was slipping.
Actually I did, she was really really good at the female thing. Really good. Really aware. She abused her power. She tried to use it on me once and I told her "knock that off, It doesnt work on me. Save that sh!t for the customers.'
Unfortunately she chewed prescription opiates like PEZ on friday nights. That didnt stop my attraction, but I was able to arrest my actions. eventually.
but if you "ask" a woman to be sexual she might say "yes" Uhhuh. even though HOW its done is important-- since this is a venue of words, your suggesting that the men should supplicate. stop that. You cant 'tell' anyone to do anything. They always have a choice. The guy who held your hand didnt tell you what to do, he told you what he wanted to do to you. You were free to react as you wished. You could have slapped him and acted shocked and offended. You could have been 'disgusted'. You chose to be open to it.
When you H bit you on the leg, what was he appealing too? You post about how to make love/live as a woman was amazing. Tell you what, you stay on your side of the fence, and Ill stay on mine. LOL.
But it takes a strong man to risk hearing "no" in that way. Id like to hear one HDW in here who wouldnt love for her H to pick her up throw her over his shoulder and stomp up to the bedroom with the intention of having his way with her, while she struggled and 'wrestled' against him. I would love to see GGB do that. or just blow thru her resistance by 'teasing' her up and down to having a real O or just pinning her down and 'making' her O. shrug. all in good time.
That takes a lot of 'guts' for a man to do and then figure out if she really doesnt want it, or if she is just 'playing' or insecurely objecting. It takes even more for a guy who wants to be 'respectful' 'nice' and not push her 'boundaries' when she is saying 'dont do that'.
If a woman believes my 'dont do thats' she'll never have a chance. She has to have a butt load of confidance in who she is as a woman.
Putting yourself in the face of rejection and then not personalizing it, if and when it comes is a real demonstration of strength and self assuredness.
Oh yeah. in that post when I mentioned post partum women not being attractive, I was mostly referring to the the fact that they are not sexually available and in the majoriy of cases not inclined (due to hormones). I mentioned that cause I noticed what most of you fixated on in my remark. I would imagine that the emotions of being a father and the wonder and appreciation would more then compensate for the temporary physical and visual changes.
That is so funny... I lent the book to my friend, who gave it to her mother, who gave it to a friend....anyway, I have never gotten it back.
BTW, I read her most recent book ( can't think of title right now) and was disappointed.
You're right, her second novel doesn't even come close.
IHJ I dont know if I mentioned it before, but If you like Pink Floyd, I think you might enjoy some of the music by Wolfmother, particularly 'Minds eye' and 'The White Unicorn'.
Didnt you say you were a chem major? How can you be LD[taptaptap].... are you a blond jewish american princess? Dont answer that.
Blackfoot... Thanks for the music recommendations... I like finding new stuff, but I am really out of it.
Yes, I was a bio/chem major...imagine that, a 4 who's a science geek (4's are supposed to be writers, artists, etc.). I went to med school and worked much of my life in a lab atmosphere ( how is that for romance)? I became interested in psych a few years back and then found myself at a crossroads; I have been essentially unemployed for the last 18 months while I go through my mini MLC.
Id like to hear one HDW in here who wouldnt love for her H to pick her up throw her over his shoulder and stomp up to the bedroom with the intention of having his way with her, while she struggled and 'wrestled' against him. I would love to see GGB do that. or just blow thru her resistance by 'teasing' her up and down to having a real O or just pinning her down and 'making' her O. shrug. all in good time.
That takes a lot of 'guts' for a man to do and then figure out if she really doesnt want it, or if she is just 'playing' or insecurely objecting. It takes even more for a guy who wants to be 'respectful' 'nice' and not push her 'boundaries' when she is saying 'dont do that'.
If a woman believes my 'dont do thats' she'll never have a chance. She has to have a butt load of confidance in who she is as a woman.
Putting yourself in the face of rejection and then not personalizing it, if and when it comes is a real demonstration of strength and self assuredness.
Really great description complete with the caveat of making sure that the woman really wants it. I've actually said a similar version of this before. And what a great description of showing how it goes both ways between men and women.
Oh and one additional caveat - if you are seriously thinking of trying this, man or woman, please think about the timing issue. If your guy truly wants to come home and have 30 minutes of down time watching ESPN/ Nightly News, or working out, or whatever, That is NOT the time to seduce him. The same goes for men. If your wife has certain needs like washing dishes immediately after dinner, having time to drink afternoon tea and read a book, etc., that's not the time to try either. At least not in relationships that are in the healing process. i know I was being a bit stereotypical but my main point was not setting yourself up for failure just by ignoring things your spouse has already told you. This is directly from Michelle and I love this description because I was terrible at doing the same thing. She used to try to talk to her husband at certain times of the day even after he told her he didn't like talking x,y, and z. She finally decided to just listen to his request and not have him justify why he didn't want to talk x,y, and z. The same thing here. if your spouse has said, "I like to have x time to do y thing after z thing" (is that neutral enough??) then sure as heck don't ak them to do "p" thing at x time during y thing. Is that clear as mud?
Anyway this also kind of dovetails into my theory that men are wrong when they say that women don't want nice guys (very similar to the men love b!tches theorem and just as "wrong") . That's simplifying the choice into 1) Nice guy and 2) Bad Boy. But my interpretation is that many guys who think they are "nice" are actually pushovers. Nice guy in my book does NOT equal pushover (and nice girl shouldn't equal pushover either). So the #3 MAN is the real choice - Sweetheart of a man WHO isn't a pushover and is confident in who he is. That is the real Man that most women want.
In my opinion the only type of women that truly want "Bad boys" are women with emotional and psychological issues. (A professional baseball player whose name escapes me and his wife have talked about their own relationship issues on a similar subject. She had had issues and past abusive boyfriends and was falling into a trap of trying to escalate arguments between them into physical confrontations because it was all she was used to. This MAN was strong enough to see what she was doing AND to not fall into the trap of a) abusing her the way she was baiting him to or b) becoming a pushover to try to help her and appease her. Instead he, in one instance, pulled over the car, stepped out and said(I'm paraphrasing off the top of my head), "I am not going to react to this the way you are pushing me to. You need to KNOW that I love you. I will not tolerate this but I will not yell and physically abuse you. You need to deal with this issue. I will be here for you but I will not tolerate living like this" He was dedicated to her and loved her but you could tell that he was strong enough that he wouldn't tolerate that way of life. Thankfully I think she reacted to this #3 Man. The guy who was nice enough to love and respect her but strong enough to love and respect himself.
All right confession time. I've had three cups of regular coffee today after 2 months of decaf. Is it obvious?
Anyway... If these are incoherent, babbling posts with no redeeming value, I apologize in advance. (See, i still have my own work to do because I tend to put myself down as a pre-emptive strike.)
I wonder if you ever read The Red Tent...your sensuality reminds me of Leah, just so of the earth.
I really liked that book. I did relate to the Leah character but I'm not actually as "grounded" as Leah.
Being an old Pink Floyd fan, I have to say I feel comfortably LD.
LOL
Mojo, manytimes your posts and analogies are simply brilliant. [cough]This is not one of those times. [cough] I think your work out burned some fat cells and released some latent THC from your youth. hehe.
I wish, I'm afraid I'm still working on this year's Xmas cookies.
FYI, what I was actually thinking was f*cking brilliant and totally Post-Schnarchian but it just didn't come out right in type.
Ive never said anything about telling a woman to have sex with you.
I'm too lazy to search around the threads but I know that somewhere you said something like "In my experience whenever I've simply told a woman to do something she has done it. She might fuss a bit but eventually she does it.". Mayhaps you weren't referring to sex when you said this but if this is a universal truth about women why wouldn't it work for sex too?
Thats what a womans testing is designed to expose and eliminate. Some just dont know when to stop, because its harming them, not protecting them.
I don't quite get this womans testing concept. I think I must have flunked that course at Miss Godey's Charm School for Young Misses.
Uhhuh. even though HOW its done is important-- since this is a venue of words, your suggesting that the men should supplicate. stop that. You cant 'tell' anyone to do anything. They always have a choice.
I'm NOT suggesting that men should supplicate. I absolutely agree that my use of the words "tell" and "ask" was unfortunate. I'll think about what I was trying to say some more and try to do better in a future post.
The guy who held your hand didnt tell you what to do, he told you what he wanted to do to you. You were free to react as you wished. You could have slapped him and acted shocked and offended. You could have been 'disgusted'. You chose to be open to it.
But please remember that I am sort of a clueless Dodo bird when it comes to men because I was raised by a gentle man in a family of sisters. When I was in high school I had a persistent obscene phone caller who just made me curious when he said things like "I'm going to leave a jar of sperm on your desk.". Instead of hanging up on him I would just be wondering how he was going to manage that.
cont.
When you H bit you on the leg, what was he appealing too?
Well, I think that you and I would be on the same page answering this question but in recent years when I asked my H why he did that he said "I was just being playful, not sexual.".
Tell you what, you stay on your side of the fence, and Ill stay on mine. LOL.
That's not very neighborly. Don't come knocking on my door hoping to borrow a cup of sugar with that attitude. JKLOL
Id like to hear one HDW in here who wouldnt love for her H to pick her up throw her over his shoulder and stomp up to the bedroom with the intention of having his way with her, while she struggled and 'wrestled' against him. I would love to see GGB do that. or just blow thru her resistance by 'teasing' her up and down to having a real O or just pinning her down and 'making' her O. shrug. all in good time.
Yeah, and I'd love it if MsHD would stop her internal chant of "Yes means Yes and NO means NO whatever I wear and wherever I go." (or at least put it in context) and greet HD at the door some evening nekkid except for a pair of pink panties with "Naughty Butt Nice" printed on the *ss.
That takes a lot of 'guts' for a man to do and then figure out if she really doesnt want it, or if she is just 'playing' or insecurely objecting. It takes even more for a guy who wants to be 'respectful' 'nice' and not push her 'boundaries' when she is saying 'dont do that'.
I totally agree with what you are saying here. What I would add from my HD female perspective is that it takes even more guts for a man to deal with a woman who is coming on strong than one who is being resistant. It's easier to chase the woman who is acting like she doesn't want to be caught across the field than it is to meet the woman halfway across the field who is walking towards you with full intent in her open eyes. It's easier to play the lion when the woman is playing the gazelle than when the woman is playing the lioness.
I would imagine that the emotions of being a father and the wonder and appreciation would more then compensate for the temporary physical and visual changes.
Well, I wasn't accusing you of being a superficial *zz ( I think you are a wonderful Alpha Male Nice Boy )because of what you posted. I was just reflecting on my own experience.
What I was trying to convey with my woman in the field scenario and the paragraph that you dissed was some sort of reasonable compromise between female and male mature sexuality. The reason I was trying to do this was because let's say the HD guys on this BB are successful at bringing out the HD in their women. What next? How in the h*ll are they going to handle HD women if they can't even handle LD women?
Let's say that I am a HD woman who is fully sexual and fully aware of my desire to be dominated sexually. There are two scenarios that will arise if I attempt to express my sexuality which in my experience the vast majority of men can't deal with. The first being a scenario in which I start out playing "top" and ask to be "flipped" the second being a scenario in which I am straight-forwardly signaling "bottom" without being coy.
In the first scenario I am walking towards the man across the field with a fully loaded tank of estrogen/testosterone mix. In other words, I am seriously horny and attracted to the man. I am signaling "I am going to f*ck your brains out.". A certain percentage of men will turn tail and run immediately and comfort themselves with mysogynistic thoughts. Most of the rest will fall to the ground in shock and awe that a woman actually wants to f*ck their brains out. Some will be more casual and signal back "Yeah, baby, f*ck my brains out.". I have yet to meet the man who would actually signal back "No, baby, I am going to f*ck YOUR brains out.". Now some would say that I am just wrongheaded to want to behave in this manner, not very "ladylike" sort of "maneater-esque". They may be absolutely right in many ways. However, there is one thing that I know is true. If I ever met the man who could "top" my "top" the sex would be so hot the earth beneath us would be scorched black.
In the second scenario in which I signal "bottom" without being coy the problem is that my signal of "bottom" is frequently heard as "low self-esteem". Men believe that the bunny that doesn't run is injured or sick and therefore not likely to be very tasty. Men don't get that sometimes the bunny doesn't run because the rabbit wants to be caught. The bunny likes the sensation of the sharp teeth on her soft belly.
Anyway the discussion of the problems that I've outlined above is sort of my recommended syllabus for Alpha Male 401. I am sorry for interrupting your 101 class Professor Blackfoot.
Ok mojo.
First I understood what you where saying in your original post. Maybe I can even assist you with what you were trying to say because I do in fact agree with you. You extrapolate too well. Its pesky.
However when you bring it to me, like that, Im going to require that you bring your 'A' game.
like "In my experience whenever I've simply told a woman to do something she has done it. She might fuss a bit but eventually she does it.". Mayhaps you weren't referring to sex when you said this but if this is a universal truth about women why wouldn't it work for sex too?
Ok. your right. very good. Thats not specifically what I was talking about, but it is true. Now imagine a man who is hesitant, unsure, and not self assured to even tell his woman to bring him.... dinner, trying to comprehend and accomplish something so far out of his beliefs. Its like telling indians who use flint and granite, that matches arent magic. Besides that there are many many many lurkers here who --to put it bluntly --are thieves and scallywags and users. [BF presents the single finger salute to the aforementioned.]
Your very open and have experienced it on some mild level I am absolutely certain so its part of your experience. You 'ken' it.
That being said, I dont do that anymore. I dont prey on the weak, I only trade what is freely offered, and inform them that its nothing else.
greet HD at the door some evening nekkid except for a pair of pink panties with "Naughty Butt Nice" printed on the *ss Id like that as much as you. With the exception of the LDW who are full of resentment, most of the 'LD'W would appreciate that same scenario I mentioned.
What I would add from my HD female perspective is that it takes even more guts for a man to deal with a woman who is coming on strong than one who is being resistant. I mentioned this same thing before when you(?) and LFL were talking about top and bottom. It WAS harder for me to deal with the women who were so ridiculously aggressive, assertive, direct and apparently top. It was just a test too. If I was more top and reasserted fearlessly no matter the extreme level, then everything was fine. If I hesitated for less then a second, and thats exact time -not metaphorical, then I was deemed unworthy. It required courage, because there is no 'pre practice' activity that can give you the confidance for it. A woman top is not the natural order. A man is turned off and without a referance point in that situation.
Lets say you are a soldier, it doesnt matter how much you practice, untill you set foot on the battlefield and charge forward when everything in your body and soul is telling you to run away, youll never discover that courage leads to confidance. Of course too much battlefield just leads to a burnt out indifferant NAFOD who has no caution or temperance, for the limits of his associates, and is a danger to everyone except himself.
It's easier to play the lion when the woman is playing the gazelle than when the woman is playing the lioness.
I wish youd quit using it but we are totally on the same page when you keep using lions as your analogy referance. It was some in depth reflection on this that finally(i hope) had me accepting tending the fences... and then I saw the remark about the grass is not greener if there is no fence.... That was the assumption I was operating under before though... ew my head hurts.
It's easier to chase the woman who is acting like she doesn't want to be caught across the field than it is to meet the woman halfway across the field who is walking towards you with full intent in her open eyes. Lets bring this back to the original point of your post.
What would you like for that man who is walking across the field to do when he gets to you though? Ask, tell, or Know. Is his knowing going to be more or less satisfying for you coming from within him, or when he asks and you tell?
So your right. Her responding to the 'ask' will come from a healther place inside of her. I truly truly wish I had allowed for that to happen in my reconcil attempt.
I think your saying it though, because you just dont want a man who you can 'top' no matter how far you push it. So dont worry, you pass "Miss Godey's Charm School for Young Misses" testing her man 506 class magna cum laude.
Nice try though.
A man still has to stretch himself outside of his comfort zone and find his edge, before he can relax into his true self. And then he has to stretch again. and again. Some dont want to go anywhere near the edge, and some are constantly dangling from it. Figure out which one your man is and figure out how to assist him to a middle ground. You picked him afterall. Take responsibility for your decision. Pregnancy counts as a Pick BTW.
There was nothing in your vows about 'if I can mold him into exactly what I think he should be.'
I think you are a wonderful Alpha Male Nice Boy That is truly in the top five worst things I have ever been called. Im not an alpha male, I dont wish to be, I currently have no desire to take care of anyone, and if you think Im nice, you havent paid attention to my R with x. Since you are old enough to be my mom, Ill let you escape with the boy remark.
Do you mind if I bring my laundry over? You can keep the sugar, but I would like some peach cobbler..ohh.. out of season.. how about some fudge brownies?
I was just reflecting on my own experience. If my woman is unavailable to me, you better believe I am selfish enough to take care of myself, and I would presume porn would be preferable to some OW. Im all ears to what a woman who is 'touched out' and 'needied out' from the kids, would prefer from her H. and abstinance is not an option. feel free to express your solutions bluntly.
Most of this was just tossed out there in general. I think your doing good mojo. Or your H is... lol.
Since you are old enough to be my mom
Ouch. He doesn't seem so nice now does he Mojo?
Maybe that was his point.
Mean mean man.
Mojo, I thought your top/bottom descriptions were perfect. And I agree, HDW who approaches as a top and the man makes her the bottom. Yep. That's good stuff. Nothing hotter.
But alas, as BF states
Some dont want to go anywhere near the edge, and some are constantly dangling from it. Figure out which one your man is and figure out how to assist him to a middle ground. You picked him afterall. Take responsibility for your decision.
That is what I am trying to do now and what I have been referring to when I mention acceptance. Most men are not the "I'll top her top" type. And even when they are (the man I dated while I was S was certainly one of them), they often lack other qualities (like holding a decent intellectual conversation) that negate (at least some)
of their sexual skill.
So the point being there is no perfect person in this world and certainly no perfect mate. You need to adjust to what the person is capable of bringing to the R/M or simply be miserable and wanting.
But it is fun to discuss it.
LMAO ---crossed posts. same thoughts.
I have yet to meet the man who would actually signal back "No, baby, I am going to f*ck YOUR brains out.". Now some would say that I am just wrongheaded to want to behave in this manner, not very "ladylike" sort of "maneater-esque". They may be absolutely right in many ways. However, there is one thing that I know is true. If I ever met the man who could "top" my "top" the sex would be so hot the earth beneath us would be scorched black. Ahhhh, you put it so delicately. LMAO. hahahahah. hahahah. and thats the crux of the whole matter. YOU will never meet that man, because you will always push it to the next level to see if he can still be more top.
Maybe mother earth conceived of ways to prevent herself from being scorched black.
HAHAHA. oh jesus. Thank you for that laugh.
fearless.
Anyway... If these are incoherent, babbling posts with no redeeming value, I apologize in advance. yes once again you have posted outside my meager comprehension range. all the addendums and caveats made it much clearer though. Im going to confer with Lilli for a translation.
(See, i still have my own work to do because I tend to put myself down as a pre-emptive strike.) Stop that. Seriously. besides being unattractive, I can't put you down if you do it for me. Takes all the pleasure out of being brutally honest and critical. And dont worry I think your
.
Anyway... If these are incoherent, babbling posts with no redeeming value, I apologize in advance. (See, i still have my own work to do because I tend to put myself down as a pre-emptive strike.)Hey, Fearless!
I think you're used to other forums, such as Newcomers and Infidelity, where a lot of folks are at an exceedingly fragile place in their emotional lives. Lots of reassurance and a gentle touch is often the order of the day.
This is a different crowd. Be you without apology and let everybody else deal with it. It's good practice, if nothing else.
Id like to hear one HDW in here who wouldnt love for her H to pick her up throw her over his shoulder and stomp up to the bedroom with the intention of having his way with her, while she struggled and 'wrestled' against him. I would love to see GGB do that. or just blow thru her resistance by 'teasing' her up and down to having a real O or just pinning her down and 'making' her O. shrug. all in good time.
She'll either have to lose a bit more weight or I'm going to need to start hitting the gym more than the 2x a week I am now before I can put her over my shoulder...she outweighs me by about 45 lbs right now
. Actually, that *IS* a big part of her LD, or at least it is what she says....basically she doens't see herself as desirable and can't understand what I see. BUT, I have had some limited success with figuratively throwing her over my shoulder and having my way (e.g. pushing her down on the bed and going for it). As far as pinning her down, yeah, I tried that. Got beaned pretty good upside the head and the silent treatment for about a week to show for it, and I thought she was just saying no to be coy. She says she gets a panicky feeling when she gets too close to a big 'O'. Still trying to work her up to that slowly. Baby steps.
As far as pinning her down, yeah, I tried that. Got beaned pretty good upside the head and the silent treatment for about a week to show for it, and I thought she was just saying no to be coy.
I spat my oatmeal when I read the "beaned in the head" part GGB. Sorry. It's not funny but it is a good place to reiterate the point about putting the cart before the horse.
I just don't think the "throwdown" technique will work with LD people, men or women. It's not their "thing" and may never be.
Again, you cannot change that no matter how much you try, only they can.
I remember one incident in my LD days where H once sexually wrestled me to the ground and I started to cry. I was such an idjit then.
I also find the ultra male top fantasy erotic, but I wouldn't want to live it. I think it would affect me psychologically after awhile. In a LTR, it asks to much of men, to deny the times they are feeling weak, sick, unsure, etc.
I find I am becoming more immune to my fantasy life. My quest is to make reality work. I have more compassion for the person my H is.
GGB, are you saying she actually hit you-- seriously?
Or are you just joking? And didn't speak to you for a week? Even after you (presumably) apologized?
I guess what I'm asking is are you making light of/minimizing something because it's too scary/painful to see it as serious.
I also find the ultra male top fantasy erotic, but I wouldn't want to live it. I think it would affect me psychologically after awhile. In a LTR, it asks to much of men, to deny the times they are feeling weak, sick, unsure, etc.
Interesting IHJ. I guess you mean that it is just not realistic. A man who is an ultra "top" cannot also be vulnerable or show weakness in other areas of the R? It would certainly be difficult.
I find I am becoming more immune to my fantasy life. My quest is to make reality work. I have more compassion for the person my H is.
Well, I wouldn't say I am immune to the fantasy life but I wholeheartedly agree with you on the other points. I do have more compassion for H and also am trying to be realistic.
I remember one incident in my LD days where H once sexually wrestled me to the ground and I started to cry.
Lots of women seem to be reporting this (or it's being reported by the H). Guess it's pretty rare. Sometimes it sucks being the so called "Freak of Nature."
But the more I think about it, it's not freaky at all, because as Mojo has stated, many HD women want to be the "bottom" even if they come off as the "top" most of the time. I don't want to be a "top!" Unfortunately, I think I have conditioned my H to await my "top" behaviors. I have been cutting back on those and also at the same time working on the "good feelings" - compassion, respect, etc and I have seen some good changes in H because if it. Nothing like a sexual throwdown but let's not get crazy here. Trying to stay realistic. He has been more sexual towards me and I'm appreciating all the baby steps. This is big for me considering where I was not too long ago.
I would say I am at the same place as you are now, LFL. I am trying not to indulge in my fantasy fix...so will ya please pass the M & M's ?
so will ya please pass the M & M's ?
Noooo!!!
On the other hand, here - (hands IHJ giant bowl of chocolatey treats) - take it all!
I have been eating too much crap and not exercising enough.
Spring will be upon us soon enough and I need to make sure I can fit into my "she's hot for a 37 year old" clothes.
Back to the gym for me too. I went yesterday and did I really intense weight class and now my legs and arms feel like they are about to fall off but it's all for the best. Just gotta go more than once every two weeks.
3-4 times a week from now on if it kills me.
Mojo,
I presume you are aware of how your sex drive varies with the state of your relationship. Right now it seems that things are drifting into another down phase, and you are posting your usual philosophical discussion on why you should be entitled to more sex. Not long ago your connection with your H was close, sex was more plentiful and you found your drive diminishing. Before that, your H was stressed, angry and moody, you were horny and trying to justify staying the marriage versus leaving and finding all the sex you wanted. I think we can document several more up and down cycles just on this board.
What I see in you is a continual pattern of using sex as your balm to feel loved and connected with your H. That makes sense based on what you’ve told us of your childhood. I would think sex at such an early age can confuse a girl in understanding just what it is about her that boys value – her sex or herself as a person.
Throw in a little touch of feminism (the rationalization to dress down, not “pretty” yourself up, not become vulnerable to a man, etc) and I can see you stuck between a rock and a hard place (though not necessarily the “hard” place you would like, LOL!) So on one hand, you want, even need sex to feel good about yourself. OTOH, getting sex means compromising some of your feminist behaviors. That thought repulses you somewhat, makes you less soft and feminine, and thus makes it harder for you to get the sex you want (which makes you hornier and ramps up the whole cycle). Your discussion with Blackfoot is actually quite interesting, but I do not think it is the real point of your problem.
When you wonder about reconciling your HD with the LD of your H, I do not think focusing on compatibilities, or different types of attraction toward sex will answer the problem. As you have portrayed on this board, your own sex drive cycles vary based on the state of your M. When the M is stressed, your drive goes up, when things are good, your drive diminishes. I think that is completely normal.
I think the high drive you are experiencing now is just a consequence of the current stress in the M. If you can level out the M, including leveling out the stress and self confidence that your H feels, then I am guessing your drive will level out because your H will be in a better position to give you the acceptance you really want. You will not have to resort to sex to prove yourself worthy and accepted, as you did when younger.
So I think your focus on sex is really putting the cart before the horse, KWIM? Work out the underlying acceptance, validation stuff, and I think the discussion with Blackfoot could be more valuable. Just my 2 cents.
LFL... Not passing those M & M's? B!tch, lol. Gosh, I am so with you aqbout the exercising. For awhile I was playing tennis 3x/week and getting a little decent at it...then I go and injure my ankle...badly...no tennis or running for a year, according to the OS. I haven't been able to get back to myself ( GGB, I do feel for the Mrs, a fellow ankler).
Oh and Blackfoot, no I am not blonde...and as far as being a jewish american princess, well yes, I was a daddy's girl, but my father has a really strong work ethic, so no pampered life for me.But yes, he was spoiling in his own way...a car for college, down payment for house, stuff like that. Paid H's school debt. And yes, my heart belongs to daddy, what can I say?
No tennis or running for a YEAR? That's an awfully long recovery time. Wow.
Oh Lil, You don't know the half of it. I have been a disabled person the last few months. Only recently have I stopped walking with a limp. I haven't really brought it up, but I really should have, because it's impacted the marriage. H had stepped up big time to take care of the household stuff, and I am forever grateful. Like with Karen's accident, the love and commitment stuff become highlighted ( no wonder I am knocked out of fantasyland).
Anyway, I need to start a new thread. Jenny, my apologies for hijack # 50 million.
hhhh, you put it so delicately. LMAO. hahahahah. hahahah. and thats the crux of the whole matter. YOU will never meet that man, because you will always push it to the next level to see if he can still be more top.
Maybe mother earth conceived of ways to prevent herself from being scorched black
This is the point I was trying to make about the necessity of finding a mature adult compromise when it comes to male/female sexuality. The behavior that makes a woman horny is not the behavior that will make her a reliable pair-bonded sex partner. If you "tell" a woman to have sex with you, you are appealing to her "bottom" desire. It might seem like "you" as the man are creating that desire by your behavior but it's just like a woman trying to appeal to men by getting bigger boobs. The woman is responding to the testosterone not the whole man just like the man is responding to the boobs not the whole woman. I would expect that men would feel threatened by female "bottom" desire in the same way women would feel threatened by men talking about how much they REALLY REALLY like REALLY REALLY big boobs or 19 year old girls or super model *ss etc. I mean most of the men on the BB would probably agree that it would be scorching hot to have sex with a 19 year old girl with big boobs and super-model *ss just like most of the women agreed that my fantasy was hot.
What I was trying to get at in my previous posts is an answer to the question "How are any of us going to stay pair-bonded and have hot sex when we are 60?". It's equally lame for me to think about getting a boob job as it is for me to think about finding a man who is more "top"-like in order to achieve that. My H and I could squabble endlessly about who is the one who needs to change "perception" of sexiness in order to make the sex more hot. What would make the sex more "warm" for both of us would be if we could appreciate the "pilgrim soul" in each other not just the attributes of femininity or masculinity. If my woman in the garden post seems to err more on the side of "what the girls want" then that's only natural because I'm a girl but I am trying to envision a compromise that allows for a generous, mature spirit in sexuality. "Tell" a girl to have sex with you but "Ask" a woman because as she reaches inside herself for the "Yes" she will be responding to you in a way that is more healthy and whole because she will be responding to the "pilgrim soul" in you, not just the man and that is the sort of sexual response that will last a lifetime.
since you are old enough to be my mom,
Big sister. And you are in major denial about the other stuff.
I think there is some truth to what you are saying Cobra. However, I would say that my essential problem is that I am a romantic not that I am a feminist. Because I am a romantic I want to be loved for my "pilgrim soul" not just my "moments of glad grace" or my "beauty" (though I do understand their appeal remember I'm the women who dressed MsHD in "Naughty Butt Nice" panties-LOL.)When I "ask" my H to have sex with me and he responds by telling me that he doesn't want to have sex with me because he "doesn't like the way that I look at myself in the mirror, when he threatens to leave me and says that we "don't have a happy family life" he is rejecting my romantic soul and that's what really hurts.
Mojo,
Although I have a few problems with the approach that Schnarch uses, I still think his underlying principle is sound. I think sexual attraction and drive come directly from intimacy and EC. What I hear you saying keeps sounding like some kind of higher order rationalization to put another wall around you. The assumption that you are HD is wrong IMO. You are high drive for acceptance, which causes you to be high drive for sex. How did you feel as that girl in the white dress, walking back from a sexual encounter? Did you feel accepted, whole, loved? Isn’t that feeling what you are trying to get back to? Don’t you feel further from that when you and your H are distant and sex is lacking?
Romanticism is fine and good, but as we will see with Lord Grenville, it can also be a way of hiding. It paints the world as you would like it to be, not as it really is, and anything that creates an illusion, no matter how innocent it may seem, cannot foster real vulnerability.
Also, I agree with you about Blackfoot. I’ve started to reply to his thoughts several times, but there is a lot of good in what he says. Like anything else, taken too far it can become harmful. I see some of his ideas as being just another way of protecting himself from getting hurt, then justifying it as weakness on the part of the woman because she couldn’t pass some test. True intimacy and vulnerability require no test. They only require honesty an self knowledge without delusion. Not an easy thing to do.
Lil,
Yeah, she's got a thing for hitting sometimes. She smacked my head repeatedly until I got up. She'd talk to me about nonR things, but anything to do with sex, or R, or an apology got me the silent treatment. She doesn't like getting pinned down or a feeling of being trapped (I've told her I'd have to tie her up and bring her to an 'O', to which she's replied that if I tied her up it would be the last time I'd ever see her nekid).
I would say I am at the same place as you are now, LFL. I am trying not to indulge in my fantasy fix...so will ya please pass the M & M's ?
Only the green ones
What I was trying to get at in my previous posts is an answer to the question "How are any of us going to stay pair-bonded and have hot sex when we are 60?".
My feeling is that the only way out of this dilemma is to keep working on improving the relationship. There are no shortcuts. No sense in belaboring the mega alpha male fantasy stuff. We wouldn't want that anyway. For me, the erotic novel stuff is the female equivalent of porn. It revved me up enough to break through my LD wall...fortunately I came to this BB and was able to channel my energy contructively to save my marriage. I have to hand it to the men on this board...they listen to our fantasy stuff and haven't thrown their own fantasies around too much. What a nice, respectful bunch you are. ( well except for Cobra and his big boob stuff with his wife, but I see where he's getting at with the radical honesty stuff...he gets the honorary PhD here.)
The negative comments your H makes, Jenny, well, you have to find a way to let them go. Deal with them at the time and move on. I am trying to do the same thing. I think to myself, " Too bad H has to put up a barrier towards intimacy. Poor thing." Otherwise you go around in circles.
I do think you are in some denial about how much your H means to you. How do I know this? Because you have stuck around here so long!
Referring to this poem, one of my all time favs by W.B. Yeats:
When You Are Old
When you are old and grey and full of sleep,
And nodding by the fire, take down this book,
And slowly read, and dream of the soft look
Your eyes had once, and of their shadows deep;
How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim Soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;
And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars.
Lil, the Librarian
She smacked my head repeatedly until I got up.
You are high drive for acceptance, which causes you to be high drive for sex.
You may be right but it's all mixed up chicken and the eggy for me because my sexuality is a part of me that I want to be accepted.
How did you feel as that girl in the white dress, walking back from a sexual encounter? Did you feel accepted, whole, loved? Isn’t that feeling what you are trying to get back to?
Well, I would say that it was more of a feeling of self-acceptance and self-love. That memory makes me want to leave my H because I feel like he interferes with that feeling.
Romanticism is fine and good, but as we will see with Lord Grenville, it can also be a way of hiding. It paints the world as you would like it to be, not as it really is, and anything that creates an illusion, no matter how innocent it may seem, cannot foster real vulnerability.
That's very good the part about illusion not fostering real vulnerability. When my H said "We do not have a happy family life." what he was really saying was "We do not have a happy family life because I am not happy because my job sucks and I am a member of the family.". He was trying to pierce my illusion that things were okay by letting me know that things weren't okay with him. The problem for me was that there was no way for me to "fix" what wasn't okay with him and therefore no way for me to restore the "happy family life" that I wanted. So my H got what he wanted in terms of rendering me more vulnerable because I, of course, responded by crying but the interaction actually decreased our intimacy or it maybe it made him feel more intimate with me because now I was unhappy too but it made me want to distance myself because I wanted to be happy. It's just too hard to be empathetic with someone who is so frequently depressed.
True intimacy and vulnerability require no test. They only require honesty an self knowledge without delusion. Not an easy thing to do.
Which comes back to the way in which I am a feminist. There is a core of feminism that tries to express the truth about the ways in which men and women are the same. Over-the-top sexism is as much of a protective delusion as over-the-top feminism though they both can be attractive romantic notions.
I do think you are in some denial about how much your H means to you. How do I know this? Because you have stuck around here so long!
Well all I can say is that his level of denial is higher than mine. (sigh)(tired Mojo)
I am sorry but I am ROTFLMAO because you posted the Yeats poem (thank you) and followed it directly with GGB's "she smacked my head repeatedly until I got up". Talk about contrast.
Yeah, that pretty much sums everything up ( the yeats poem and the repeated smacks).
Hi all,
This thread has gotten very interesting in my weekend away. I have so many thoughts arising from it but I think I will reread it, think some more and decide whether a response is necessary or just fluff.
Karen
well we like the fluff too! Welcome back!
Mojo,
I get your frustration with your H and his perpetual self pity. I still see the problem for both of you as a competition in some ways over who can find a new tact to create sympathy in the other. I agree that you two probably mean more to each other than you care to admit. That applies to my W and I too.
But I still see the key as striking a fine balance of may things - offering true empathy as the carrot, with full explanation of boundaries as the stick, radical honesty of your fears, and for your H, some way of boosting his optimism toward life.
I see you doing all these things but not together. Recall when Karen was down on herself after her accident and Lil gave her one of those gentle slaps to snap out of it, have you ever done that to you H, telling him you depend on him far too much and he is far too capable to engage in that mindset. Furthermore, ask him how you can you maintain your romanticism of him as your knight when he is like that. Empathy, mild boundary, some vulnerability and ego boost all rolled into one.
Just exploring ideas....
Aw, c'mon, karen, let US be the judge of your fluff!
BTW did you get the bikini wax?
This "hitting" brings back some bad memories of my ex. She hit me pretty hard once on the head. Yeah, it left quite a bump. Worse than that, though, was that she did it in front of the kids. Wonder what kind of scars it left with them?
I hope your wife doesn't smack you in front of your kids.
Hairdog
have you ever done that to you H, telling him you depend on him far too much and he is far too capable to engage in that mindset. Furthermore, ask him how you can you maintain your romanticism of him as your knight when he is like that. Empathy, mild boundary, some vulnerability and ego boost all rolled into one.
Maybe I have never made it clear but my H is generally quite resistant to any sort of expressed admiration for his manliness.If he was in a good mood and I said something along those lines he would joke it off. If I said it to him when he was in a real bad mood he might say something really sarcastic like "Yeah, I'd bet you'd like that having a knight. Nice try.". He does respond well sometimes to me saying something like "So you're going to dump it all in my lap, huh?". Also, I've developed greater awareness of the fact that sometimes I unconsciously do the opposite. For instance, one evening shortly after he was home on his two week sick spell he was objecting to the fact that I had to go to a late night book sale because he had to get up early the next morning and he might stay up worrying and I said "If I don't keep working full throttle I will not be able to control my anxiety.".
No, she's never smacked me in front of the kids. Actually, the occasional smack is often deserved :-), and it beats the heck out the grabbing my earlobes and pulling that she did when we were first married (I put a stop to that right quick). Seems her dear old mum had a thing with pulling kids around by the earlobes at times, and MrsGGB somehow thought it to be appropriate to use on her H.
GGB, a smack is NEVER deserved! Unless you're threatening her life and/or physical safety! Where did you ever get an idea like that???
Mojo,
I'm wondering whether your H's self deprecating reponse might be his male version of an insecure woman's self deprecating remarks if a man gives her a compliment, or if a man makes a pass at her and she keeps saying no when she really means yes. If he responds as you say, then I read it as more a sign of his discomfort in being admired than not wanting you to say it.
In fact, he probably wants you to say it more but is too scared to admit to it. If he is not copnfident in his masculinity then I can see him thinking that asking for validation is being "wimpy." (BTW did he ever get teased about this sort of things from other boys when he was a kid?)
I am seeing your role as a mother trying to groom her son behind the scene to be confident, assertive, etc. That means there are times when the mom might have to smack her son to stand up straight and stick out his chest, but he knows she does it out of love for him. The military seems to have the same effect on some lost boys too. That's not going to be attractive to you, but that's what you have to work with.
Mojo,
I'm wondering whether your H's self deprecating reponse might be his male version of an insecure woman's self deprecating remarks if a man gives her a compliment, or if a man makes a pass at her and she keeps saying no when she really means yes. If he responds as you say, then I read it as more a sign of his discomfort in being admired than not wanting you to say it.
In fact, he probably wants you to say it more but is too scared to admit to it. If he is not copnfident in his masculinity then I can see him thinking that asking for validation is being "wimpy." (BTW did he ever get teased about this sort of things from other boys when he was a kid?)
I am seeing your role as a mother trying to groom her son behind the scene to be confident, assertive, etc. That means there are times when the mom might have to smack her son to stand up straight and stick out his chest, but he knows she does it out of love for him. The military seems to have the same effect on some lost boys too. That's not going to be attractive to you, but that's what you have to work with.
I am seeing your role as a mother trying to groom her son behind the scene to be confident, assertive, etc. That means there are times when the mom might have to smack her son to stand up straight and stick out his chest, but he knows she does it out of love for him. The military seems to have the same effect on some lost boys too. That's not going to be attractive to you, but that's what you have to work with.
I feel like this is what I've mostly been trying to do for the last 19 years and it hasn't worked. It's like I've been force-feeding him Dr. Laura's Big 3 (feed, f*ck, admire) in an effort to get the "work his heart out for you" on the other end and I've only ended up making myself exhausted. In one of my more dysfunctionally HD moments many years ago, I gave my H a BJ in order to relax him for a job interview. I guess I've come to the conclusion that if a woman goes into overdrive on following the Dr. Laura type rules than it works out to be the same as a man being supplicating. OTOH, I don't think that I should take BFs advice and act LD just to get what I want (especially since sex is part of what I want.-LOL). Though maybe the point both of you are trying to make is that I should be more Mom with the stick than Mom with the carrot. Definitely not an appealing or natural role for me. My own giant children pat me on the head these days.
Mojo,
I feel like this is what I've mostly been trying to do for the last 19 years and it hasn't worked. It's like I've been force-feeding him Dr. Laura's Big 3 (feed, f*ck, admire) in an effort to get the "work his heart out for you" on the other end and I've only ended up making myself exhausted.
How is this any different from the men here who have been putting up with their W’s crap for years and are now told to do it even longer, except to do it in a different and more effective way? Hairdog is still putting up with his W, but now he is doing it from a more alpha perspective, so there is a chance things could change.
Just because you think you were a good “mother” to your H doesn’t mean who were. You might have been playing mother, but I think you were an enabling mother. After years of this type of conditioning, it will be hard for him to see the difference. The good thing is that he is a rational adult, he seems willing to discuss these things with you, and open minded enough to see your point. His problem does not seem to be with recognition of his faults (the same goes with you), but in having the strength to push forward rather than slip back into old patterns.
In one of my more dysfunctionally HD moments many years ago, I gave my H a BJ in order to relax him for a job interview.
I can see that would relax him, but I don’t see how it would help him get over his anxiety or lack of confidence. Perhaps seeking advice from a recruiter on how to present yourself in interviews, how to dress, how to stand, shake hands, etc., would have been more valuable and a better confidence booster.
I guess I've come to the conclusion that if a woman goes into overdrive on following the Dr. Laura type rules than it works out to be the same as a man being supplicating.
Don’t get me wrong, your H is in dire need to growing up and becoming a man. Its like he is stuck in adolescence. Dieda would help him a lot. I also think he needs to get serious about his career, even if it means selling the house and moving to another part of the country. As a side note, it seems to me that blue collar or staff level people tend to be very stationary in terms of where they live. White collar, managerial or executive level people tend to move a lot and sometimes move often. If there is no work where they live, they find a job anywhere in the country and move. Maybe you and your H should open the door to all possibilities regarding his career. Staying close to old friends and families may not be helping your marriage, KWIM?
OTOH, I don't think that I should take BFs advice and act LD just to get what I want (especially since sex is part of what I want.-LOL).
No, I wouldn’t do that either, but I do believe your HD state may change with your relationship.
Though maybe the point both of you are trying to make is that I should be more Mom with the stick than Mom with the carrot.
I think that if he can see you wielding the stick out of love for him, he will not take it badly. Perhaps the problem with you holding the stick is that you really don’t want to, and as soon as you can, you drop it and go into your “rescue me” mode, before he has even had a chance to stabilize himself. That can feel like pressure to him, in the same way women complain that their H is waiting for sex, watching and judging them. It turns the women off, so I would think it could turn off your H as well.
Definitely not an appealing or natural role for me.
I would hope you wouldn’t have to do this forever. In fact, part of you swinging that stick should be that there will be a time when you expect him to stand up like a man and support you.
MJontheMend:
I doubt that Dr. Laura's advice would ever work with a LD man. LD men have behaviors very similar to LD women.
Just because you think you were a good “mother” to your H doesn’t mean who were. You might have been playing mother, but I think you were an enabling mother.
I absolutely agree. That is what I was trying to say I thought that I was being a good wife but I was being a bad wife because I was weak. The problem with trying to be the "strong mother" is that it's too easy to come off as Alpha in that role because you have to demand respect which works with children but not with grown men with whom you want to have sex. BF is absolutely right in that regard. Although he is wrong to believe that simply changing my perspective about my H will work. There is just no way that I can see my H as a strong male when he behaves in a manner that is irresponsible to the extent that it makes me worry about the welfare of my children. Like Chris Rock says "If the kid doesn't know how to read, that's the Momma's fault. If the kid doesn't know how to read because there isn't any electricity to read by, that's the Daddy's fault.". See, I told you I wasn't a feminist.-LOL.
Anyway, I actually am pretty much doing what you recommend. For instance, my H constantly complains about a few health problems that he has interfering with his work so I suggested to him that he make it a priority to follow through with health care providers on these matters rather than procrastinating and I offered to make the appointments. So I'm trying to be sort of the pro-active "Mom" who in response to "I'm too tired to do my homework." says "Then go take a nap right now and I'll wake you up in an hour and then you will do your homework.". My nice "Mom" side even remembers to supply some cookies and milk.-LOL.
I can see that would relax him, but I don’t see how it would help him get over his anxiety or lack of confidence. Perhaps seeking advice from a recruiter on how to present yourself in interviews, how to dress, how to stand, shake hands, etc., would have been more valuable and a better confidence booster.
I also discussed with my H that maybe he should start seeing a life coach or a job coach. I think he found the idea embarrassing but appealing at the same time.
As a side note, it seems to me that blue collar or staff level people tend to be very stationary in terms of where they live. White collar, managerial or executive level people tend to move a lot and sometimes move often. If there is no work where they live, they find a job anywhere in the country and move. Maybe you and your H should open the door to all possibilities regarding his career. Staying close to old friends and families may not be helping your marriage, KWIM?
Well, my business brings in over 40% of our income so there are some difficulties. I can move my business but not just anywhere. I would even be willing to do something new if there was an opportunity that really excited him somewhere I couldn't move my business. If he said "Woman, I hear there's land for the taking. Let's go out west!", I would go, though my motivation would probably be at least as much Type 7 greed for new experiences as "follow your man" instinct. However, realistically, we do have two children to put through college so our options are somewhat limited. Also, I should note that although my H does have a degree in education his current work is in a high demand blue collar field so he can get work virtually anywhere if he doesn't change careers.
Perhaps the problem with you holding the stick is that you really don’t want to, and as soon as you can, you drop it and go into your “rescue me” mode, before he has even had a chance to stabilize himself.
No, my problem is that I go into "Momma Bear" mode. I am only willing to spend so much time teaching a cub to fish before I abandon him to his own devices. I value independence too much to not try to allow other's to develop it, also I'm lazy. With my own children this generally works well -not so much with my H. He hates the lack of attention so he goes into a dysfunctional mode which puts me into the "rescue me" mode. Note: his real mother is a total Type 2 rescuer martyr type.
I would hope you wouldn’t have to do this forever. In fact, part of you swinging that stick should be that there will be a time when you expect him to stand up like a man and support you.
I'm almost tempted to just drop on purpose in the hopes that he'll reflexively catch me but I can't do it as long as I have to be a responsible adult for my children.
I doubt that Dr. Laura's advice would ever work with a LD man. LD men have behaviors very similar to LD women.
Well, if you were trapped on a desert island with me you might end up being the LD man. Would you want me to not follow Dr.Laura's advice at that point?
Mojo,
There is just no way that I can see my H as a strong male when he behaves in a manner that is irresponsible to the extent that it makes me worry about the welfare of my children.
Agreed, but can you at least give him the benefit of the doubt that he has the potential within him?
So I'm trying to be sort of the pro-active "Mom" who in response to "I'm too tired to do my homework." says "Then go take a nap right now and I'll wake you up in an hour and then you will do your homework.". My nice "Mom" side even remembers to supply some cookies and milk.-LOL.
This isn’t crossing over into the enabling mode, is it? It seems to be a very fine line you have to walk. It would drive me crazy too. Would it be better to show some indignation that he is wasting his skills and abilities and therefore not sharing with you his full potential, as Dieda proposes? Just wondering here…
I also discussed with my H that maybe he should start seeing a life coach or a job coach. I think he found the idea embarrassing but appealing at the same time.
Hmmm… that does sound a little like he is comforted and his ego boosted by knowing that you expect him to succeed, so he likes you pushing him, but at the same time he is embarrassed because you have to push him and other men don’t need pushing. Maybe the right balance of tough love is needed?
Also, I should note that although my H does have a degree in education his current work is in a high demand blue collar field so he can get work virtually anywhere if he doesn't change careers.
OK, I’m confused. If this is true, why is he putting up with this demeaning boss at work? Why does he just go out and grab some of this easily available work and set some of his own terms? If he is in demand, why is work even an issue? It should actually be a source of pride for him if he can be heavily recruited. I’m missing something here.
No, my problem is that I go into "Momma Bear" mode. I am only willing to spend so much time teaching a cub to fish before I abandon him to his own devices. I value independence too much to not try to allow other's to develop it, also I'm lazy.
OK Mojo, now just what do you mean by independence? One one hand I see you as being quite enmeshed with your H and dependent on him. When he gives you too much independence, it triggers anxiety in you. How can you claim to be so independent when you are so dependent on another to make you feel loved and accepted? Think this through a little because it makes no sense to me at all.
Note: his real mother is a total Type 2 rescuer martyr type.
OK, your baiting me with this FOO comment… Oh wait, I asked about it first. OK, does he understand the ramifications of this? I’m sure you do.
I'm almost tempted to just drop on purpose in the hopes that he'll reflexively catch me but I can't do it as long as I have to be a responsible adult for my children.
I agree.
I want to reply to your last set of responses but first I feel like I need to come clean regarding your theory that I started having sex young because I wanted affection or acceptance. I definitely think that I do want affection and acceptance from my H but I just do not believe that is why I started having sex at 15.
By the time I was 13 I was 5'9", 130 lbs. and wore a C cup. Any time I went to the beach grown men hit on me. I learned to MB when I was 12 or 13 by reading a book on female sexuality that my Mom left around the house and did it regularly about 2 or 3x a week. My favorite song to MB to was "Until the Night" on the Billy Joel's "52nd Street" which I ordered from the Columbia Record Club along with Andy Gibb's "Shadow Dancing", another favorite. One of my favorite fantasies involved a boy I had a crush on named Mike after he grew up and became a fireman. The theme wasn't really affection or acceptance more like "uniform fetish". Around the same time I read quite a few straight-out pornagraphic novels (mostly of the naughty schoolgirl or man with multiple women variety) that a Great-Uncle had stored with some other books at our house. I also read a ton of the standard blouse-ripping sexual romance novels available at the local drugstore. By the time I was 15 I was more than ready to lose my virginity. When I was 14 I had a boyfriend with whom I did pretty much everything but. I was "in love" with him. After we broke up I saw the movie "Little Darlings" and decided to go for it. I purposefully seduced the 23 year old gorgeous ski bum brother of one of my friends who was living with his parents in the off season. We "did it" in a room with cowboy wallpaper and continued to "do it" mostly in the backyard on a blanket, until he discovered that I was 15 and dropped me like a hot potato. My sexuality was a weird mix of ignorant and sophisticated. For instance, on one occasion I thought it was a good idea to borrow a jar of jelly from the people for whom I was babysitting and liberally apply it to myself before sex. I was jealous of the older girl that he started dating later that summer but I wasn't really heartbroken.
So I guess I'm thinking that unless it was something dysfunctional about my FOO that started me MB at 13 there wasn't really anything FOO related that caused me to start having sex at 15. I'm sorry to disappoint, I kind of like the idea of me as the sad little girl looking for affection. Gives me a nice buzz of self-pity.-LOL.
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Agreed, but can you at least give him the benefit of the doubt that he has the potential within him?
Absolutely. I also feel like I would be doing him a disservice if I suggested that he was proud of his behavior.
Would it be better to show some indignation that he is wasting his skills and abilities and therefore not sharing with you his full potential, as Dieda proposes? Just wondering here…
That might be a good idea. At least I haven't tried anything like that before so it definitely has possibilities.
OK, I’m confused. If this is true, why is he putting up with this demeaning boss at work? Why does he just go out and grab some of this easily available work and set some of his own terms? If he is in demand, why is work even an issue? It should actually be a source of pride for him if he can be heavily recruited. I’m missing something here.
The only thing you are missing is just how disspirited he is. He thinks that his current job s*cks but he thinks another one in the same field would s*ck just as bad. Being recruited is not a source of pride for him because he doesn't like what he's doing.
OK Mojo, now just what do you mean by independence?
Well, for instance I hate it when my H tells me that I shouldn't do things for my business because they would inconvenience him. I can't go to an evening sale without leaving dinner in a crockpot because he can't/won't cook at all. Personally what I mean by valuing independence is that I like working for myself and I like knowing how to do things for myself, like how to make homemade pickles or how to patch plaster. I like the idea of being financially independent so I value thrift. Also I value independent thinking, despise censorship and narrow-mindedness. John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty" made me cry when I read it. This is kind of the spirit that I was feeling in my white dress anecdote. I like feeling free to do what I want to do including skipping down the street barefoot in a little white dress after being f*cked to the music of Bob Dylan by a nice Jewish boy with a head full of curls.
How do you explain the intersection of this with my obvious marital fusion? I wish I knew.
OK, does he understand the ramifications of this?
Yes, but he says things like "Is it any wonder I am so f*cked up?".
Mojo,
How do you explain the intersection of this with my obvious marital fusion? I wish I knew.
I wasn’t aware until today that your H’s mother was a rescuer. Don’t you think all his behavior is just follow through of that? Mom, get me a better job, with someone I like… Mom, cook dinner for me before you leave…. Mom, tell me I’m great and smart and successful and how muuuuuch you love me.
Well, for instance I hate it when my H tells me that I shouldn't do things for my business because they would inconvenience him.
Yep, that one too…
Personally what I mean by valuing independence is that I like working for myself and I like knowing how to do things for myself, like how to make homemade pickles or how to patch plaster. I like the idea of being financially independent so I value thrift.
Uhhh Mom, you’re not paying attention to me when you’re doing that stuff…
Yes, but he says things like "Is it any wonder I am so f*cked up?"
So what do you say when he says this? It sounds like a little boy being cute with his mom when he got caught at something, and trying to “endear” his way out of it, KWIM? So I am wondering if you find it cute too. If so, do you think that is enabling him? Maybe you could show a little indignation that he isn’t playing the leader role and you really don’t find that amusing in the least.
Are you seeing the picture I am, that he is a male version of the Jewish American Princess and is basically spoiled rotten? If he were my son, I’d be kicking his ass to get out and learn to fight in the business world, or whatever interests him, as long as he goes after it with some gusto.
Your problem is that he has been doing this all his life, and getting away with it to boot. Old habits are going to be hard to change. But his excuse for not finding another job sounds pretty lame. Maybe he is a little scared to go out and find something new (maybe along the lines of wanting mommy to be there to help him through it). Do you think he has any concerns about competition from younger workers? Is his job really that bad or is it more a function of the people he works with? Sometimes a job can just be a job, but it’s the people you work with that make all the difference. Which really seems like a good reason to leave if he hates his boss.
As for your youth, I do not think there is anything dysfunctional per se in what you describe growing up, except that I think you were awfully young and naïve to be experiencing sex. I understand your body “pulling” you in directions before your time, but I do think it had a powerful effect on you. To have grown men hitting on you at that age, and to be surround with constant overtones of sex had to have a dysfunctional effect on you. If you said all this started around the age of 18, I wouldn’t give it a thought, but I think you were waaaaay to young to be experiencing all that. I don’t know how a girl of that age knows enough to properly keep those sexual advances in perspective. Just my POV.
Lil, you want to jump in here? You probably know a lot more about this than I.
Are you seeing the picture I am, that he is a male version of the Jewish American Princess and is basically spoiled rotten?
Well, my Mom calls him the "pampered prince" but my Mom is pretty b*tchy. At a holiday dinner my MIL started talking about how cute and talented my H was when he played the Ron Howard role in a big production of The Music Man when he was a kid. My Mom practically started rolling her eyes at the other end of the table. My kids who are sharp cookies started laughing to themselves. My MIL took my H shopping for pants for his birthday when he was in his 30s. I had to point out to him how odd that was. Recently she picked up my S18 who is her pet to take him out to lunch. She told him to brush his hair (which he wears quite long) before they left. My son told her that he liked his hair the way it was and I have to admit that I was pleased.
So what do you say when he says this? It sounds like a little boy being cute with his mom when he got caught at something, and trying to “endear” his way out of it, KWIM? So I am wondering if you find it cute too. If so, do you think that is enabling him? Maybe you could show a little indignation that he isn’t playing the leader role and you really don’t find that amusing in the least.
Dead on. Guilty as charged. My H grew up between two sisters and he learned early how to entertain the ladies. He can play that "endear" his way out of it role to a tee. He is a natural mime and ham. Here is how bad my MIL is. She told me that when my H and his sister who is just a year older than him were little they had coat hooks on the wall. When they would come inside his sister would hang up her coat but my H would moan and pretend that he couldn't reach the hook so that his sister would hang his coat up for him. My MIL thought that this story was cute and funny!!!
Your problem is that he has been doing this all his life, and getting away with it to boot. Old habits are going to be hard to change. But his excuse for not finding another job sounds pretty lame. Maybe he is a little scared to go out and find something new (maybe along the lines of wanting mommy to be there to help him through it). Do you think he has any concerns about competition from younger workers? Is his job really that bad or is it more a function of the people he works with? Sometimes a job can just be a job, but it’s the people you work with that make all the difference. Which really seems like a good reason to leave if he hates his boss.
It's less that he hates his boss and more like he gets too fused with his bosses. He cares too much what they think of him. Same with his co-workers. Back in my more dysfunctional days this used to make me sort of jealous because he could obsess endlessly about what these other people thought about him or how they treated him but simultaneously act like he didn't give a damn about my opinion or how he treated me.
As for your youth, I do not think there is anything dysfunctional per se in what you describe growing up, except that I think you were awfully young and naïve to be experiencing sex. I understand your body “pulling” you in directions before your time, but I do think it had a powerful effect on you. To have grown men hitting on you at that age, and to be surround with constant overtones of sex had to have a dysfunctional effect on you. If you said all this started around the age of 18, I wouldn’t give it a thought, but I think you were waaaaay to young to be experiencing all that. I don’t know how a girl of that age knows enough to properly keep those sexual advances in perspective. Just my POV.
I know what you're saying and there is some truth there. Partly it was just "gifted child" syndrome (brain too big including the sexual info part for my emotional britches) mixed with an early blooming body. One incident that makes my sister and I laugh every time we recall it is that we were at the beach one day and some guys came up to us and one said "Would you ladies like a beer?" and my sister said quite forcefully "We aren't ladies!".
Mojo wrote
I can't go to an evening sale without leaving dinner in a crockpot because he can't/won't cook at all.
You just meant this as a hypothetical example, right? Surely you don't mean this literally... because this is total utter complete bullsh!t. So what if he can't/won't cook. He can be hungry. He can make a PBJ, for Pete's sake.
Re Mojo's sexual precocity: I was very sexual from a very young age, too. I've been thinking about that recently. I obsessed about sex from the time I found out (from the encyclopedia at age 11) what it was. I wasn't obsessed with the validation or affirmation of it. I was obsessed with the buzzy feelings and mystery of it. I'm a double Scorpio. BUT as an only girl who moved around a lot, I didn't have any social life, AND this was before the pill and I was DEATHLY afraid of pregnancy. I KNEW my parents would put me out on the street if I became pregnant. There was no doubt in my mind. I didn't really "sleep around" until after I was divorced at the age of 25. Although I did have an affair when I was married. It's only recently with my bf and with all the reading I've been doing and soul searching that I feel whole without the lack of sex in my life affecting me adversely. Interesting. ALL my life sex has been THE single most validating thing I have been seeking. Everything else in my life could be fantastic, and if I wasn't having sex regularly, I felt like a failure. That's just not true anymore.
You just meant this as a hypothetical example, right? Surely you don't mean this literally... because this is total utter complete bullsh!t. So what if he can't/won't cook. He can be hungry. He can make a PBJ, for Pete's sake.
Yes I do mean it literally. If I don't leave him a meal or at least arrange for the kids to get take out he will say something like "The only way I can deal with my s*cky job is knowing that at least there will be a hot meal at home.". Yet, I am expected to earn a full time living and nobody ever makes a meal for me. Also I do all the housework except for my H's laundry (because I don't fold right) and a few kid chores (My D works for my business so I keep her chore load fairly light and my S is half gone from home.). Just recently I managed to get my H to do the yardwork and pay the bills but I was doing those too previously. Does anybody understand why I think it is highly likely that I will become a WAW once the kids are gone? No sex and an unfair share of work is a pretty deadly combo. It is even worse than that because if I try to work more my H complains about my absence and if I work less he complains about money. PLUS in order to get laid I have to spend X hours a week working out at the gym and keeping myself attractive and not eating cookies. PLUS I have to spend "quality" time with my H listening to him complain about his job. I actually look forward to the occasional night that he travels for work because then I can just relax. He is WAAAAAY too high maintenance. I actually sometimes think "I can't afford to be married to this man anymore" because I would be better able to take care of myself financially on my own.
Yes I do mean it literally. If I don't leave him a meal or at least arrange for the kids to get take out he will say something like "The only way I can deal with my s*cky job is knowing that at least there will be a hot meal at home.".
So let him say it. Big frickin deal.
"Arrange for the kids to get take-out..."??????
Can he not pick up the phone and call the pizza place or stop at a drive-through on the way home?
Mojomojomojo.... this is not worthy of you.
Mojo,
Let me get this straight... You want to work more to earn more money, you do most of the house work, all the yard work, cook dinner, and all this for the unbeleivable price of humping your brains our every few days? Have I got that right? Well all I have to say is.... will you marry me!!! Please!!!
Hey Pal, take a number! The end of the line is way back there
Pick a number guys.
I am expected to earn a full time living and nobody ever makes a meal for me. Also I do all the housework except for my H's laundry (because I don't fold right)
Get mine in the right room and I am happy.
Mojo, your H income goes for something, right? Like bills?
I am not saying he isn't overly picky :major eye rool: but things sure have changed since I was 40ish. SAHM's (no income from the W)and dad's doing all of the house and outside maintenance, yardwork, and taking care of the cars.
I might have room for one more retired W if you know of anyone No loud burping or major gass passing in bed. And no complaining about my cooking. It is plain at times.
Just kidding Mojo. I'm not serious, just couldn't resist getting in the line Cobra started.
On a serious note, are bills/debt/expenses a big issue in your household? I know people want more and things cost more than 20 years ago.
Lou
Mojomojomojo.... this is not worthy of you.
Trust me, I know that I have problems with setting boundaries. Why do you think I've been hanging out here for 3 fricking years? However, I am doing better and I guess my goal is to do even better than I am rather than just popping out of this marriage with frustration. My current escape fantasy is that I just buy myself a little grandma cottage on some land where I can plant an orchard and ground myself domestically and just stay the f*ck away from men because I clearly can't handle them. If I don't let my own little joy juice pump work, I am depressed because it kills my life force along with my sex drive. If I do let my little joy juice pump work I can put some of the energy into things like learning how to make pickles or taking long hikes or designing/digging a catfish pond but if I think about my body at all I will want sex.
If not feeling that little pump of joy juice is what it is like to be a "normal" woman than I don't want to be a "normal" woman.
Let me get this straight... You want to work more to earn more money, you do most of the house work, all the yard work, cook dinner, and all this for the unbeleivable price of humping your brains our every few days? Have I got that right? Well all I have to say is.... will you marry me!!! Please!!!
Here are the exact terms of the contract:
Financial/Housework: I will contribute 40% of the current U.S median household income to the general household fund. In addition I will do all of the housework at the level dictated by FlyLady.com.. (Kitchen sink empty and shiny at all times,homemade dinner 6 nights a week, house tidied daily, load of laundry done daily, weekly general cleaning, shopping,etc.etc.) Any funds that I earn beyond that level will be mine to spend on my own lifestyle choices which may or may not benefit you. (For example I may choose to buy matching leather chairs for the den or I may choose to take a solo trip to tour the gardens of England). Any boring type maintenance yard work such as mowing or shoveling will be your responsibility to do or pay for out of your own funds. I will maintain the garden. Household repairs will be divided on a 50/50 basis with each of us either contributing cash or labor or both to the endeavor (I do not do any work that involves being more than 5 ft. off the ground.).
Children/Pets/Extended Family/Friends:
You have yours and I have mine in terms of finances. I would expect mine to be treated with respect and appropriate affection and would do the same for yours. I would expect to be supported 50% in any mutual endeavor such as throwing a 4th of July party for the gang or buying Xmas presents for the grandchildren.
Companionship:
Once a week we will have a date night. We will switch off choosing the activity (Be aware that I enjoy musical theater.). Whoever picks the activity will pay for the activity (Be aware that I am cheap). In addition we will take at least one vacation together each year which we will switch off on choosing (Once again the picker will pay. Expect to spend time in hostels eating cheap native grub or in a tent in a national park on the years I am paying).
Sex/Sexiness:
We will have sex 3x a week unless one of us is unavailable for the same sort of reason that would excuse a child from attending school such as death in the family or vomiting. One time will be your pick in terms of when, style, fantasy, what I wear etc. One time will be mine. The third time will be a mutually agreed upon standard or favorite. In terms of sexiness I will maintain my weight below the top level of the healthy range as dictated by the Surgeon General (that is the best I can guarantee but I might do better)and spend at least 3.5 hours a week working out. In addition I will spend 2 hours a week worth of my time and/or income improving my appearance in other ways such as getting my hair done, putting on fresh makeup before you arrive home, browsing the Victoria's Secret Catalogue etc. What I will expect from you is maintenance of arm musculature, general hygiene, maintenance of general physical fitness to the extent to have a certain amount of "throwdown" strength and endurance and a generally manly presence and a willingness to see your physician for a prescription of Viagra if necessary.
That joy juice pump is an essential part of you and yours to keep and treasure. The problem is not that you have a JJP, it's that you activate it to full blast in response to negative crap from your H.
Mojo,
One point of clarification – do excuses absences from sex due to illness or throwing up require a note from my doctor? Regarding Viagra – I don’t need no stinkin’ Viagra! For the rest of the contract terms – ACCEPTED! and… << lip trembling, tears welling up>> I love ya baby!
…. thinking…. thinking… you know, you spit that list out pretty quick, have you already printed up a stack of ready to sign contracts? ….Hmmm, you haven’t given this a lot of thought, have you? Are you sure this isn’t one of those “top me being the top” sort of tests?
Now that's a pre-nup agreement I could live with
One point of clarification – do excuses absences from sex due to illness or throwing up require a note from my doctor? Regarding Viagra – I don’t need no stinkin’ Viagra! For the rest of the contract terms – ACCEPTED! and… << lip trembling, tears welling up>> I love ya baby!
I'm a reasonable woman, notes will not be needed. I will even make you chicken soup in lieu of sex on those occasions. It's funny but true that if you simply list all the straight-forward things that you want that you sense that you naturally would feel the appropriate emotion if you were with someone who gave you those things. I might not be "in love" with a man who met the terms of my contract but I would sure as hell love him.
. thinking…. thinking… you know, you spit that list out pretty quick, have you already printed up a stack of ready to sign contracts? ….Hmmm, you haven’t given this a lot of thought, have you? Are you sure this isn’t one of those “top me being the top” sort of tests?
I think that I have given it a lot of semi-conscious thought. Kind of like when you think about a math problem on and off for awhile and suddenly the answer comes to you out of nowhere but not really nowhere. How would this be a "top me being the top" test?
MJ,
If I were you I would go to those sales. STOP babying him. He will learn eventually to do for himself. If he threatens to quit his job because he doesn't have a hot meal then say something like, " hmmm well then you will have to figure out how the mortgage gets paid then." It's kind of like maybe he is using this to control you because he knows it causes you stress and keeps you in line. Kind of like him pretending he couldn't hang up his coat.
See my husband also use to act like he was unable to do things. I started working was was doing 95% and him doing 5%. I simply made a stand and told him I am working and also going to school he needs to help. One day I was studying and he came in and asked what was for dinner. I said I don't know why don't you go look, I hadn't planned on cooking tonight I am busy. Ya know what he found something to cook and prepared the meal. I simply stopped doing some thing I use to or don't do them as often. More and more he is starting to step up to the plate.
The problem is not that you have a JJP, it's that you activate it to full blast in response to negative crap from your H.
I really don't feel like I do that so much anymore. Also, I would say that naturally it would activate in response to positive stuff too. Sort of the equivalent of being someone who wants to eat cookies in response to stress but also wants to eat cookies in order to celebrate.
Mojo I completely agree with you about the preferable and the should be part of it. I completely agree with you and cobra about your opinion of me. There is a balance. So I am all for appealing to the woman instead of the girl, but you wont appeal to the woman if you cant appeal to a girl.
When you H bit you on the leg, what was he appealing too?
Well, I think that you and I would be on the same page answering this question but in recent years when I asked my H why he did that he said "I was just being playful, not sexual.".
I didnt ask what he was doing or his opinion. I was asking what he appealed to in you. That being said, Ive 'biten' and had a great reaction, and Ive 'biten' and had a bad reaction. I dont really care. I dont have to do it, I just like to check out the reaction. Either way, it doesnt matter to me.
GEL does not like to be tickled. It really irritates her.
all women scream and say stop when you tickle them though.
Chromos wife goes into a sexually unhinged state when he tickles her. It makes her feel her body/ feel owned by her body. I would guess that that out of control place makes her fearful/angry. She doesnt want him to have that power over her.
Shes not screaming at chromo, shes screaming in an attempt to override her body acting without her.
Who does a man tell the differance and more importantly how does he make her feel safe enough to go there with him?
Let's say that I am a HD woman who is fully sexual and fully aware of my desire to be dominated sexually. yes. You own your body and are not afraid to go there. You love there. You dont feel lost, you feel empowered.
LFL said
I just don't think the "throwdown" technique will work right after GGB just said it did work. just because she has a boundary, or a wall, or a fear in another area lets not lump it all together. I would really like to hear the specifics of what happened and more importantly his reaction to it. Its obvious he is working on it though.
The behavior that makes a woman horny is not the behavior that will make her a reliable pair-bonded sex partner. If you "tell" a woman to have sex with you, you are appealing to her "bottom" desire. I appreciate where you are going with this. The whole post gave me a flicker of hope. If your trying to help me with my issues, thank you, much appreciated, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Whoever originally we were not talking about sex specifically. so Its really a irrelevant point. We were talking about attractive masculinity in general. If you arent attractive you cant appeal to the woman.
"Tell" a girl to have sex with you but "Ask" a woman because as she reaches inside herself for the "Yes" she will be responding to you in a way that is more healthy and whole because she will be responding to the "pilgrim soul" in you, not just the man and that is the sort of sexual response that will last a lifetime.
Yes. very nice. sounds a lot like choice to me.
Big sister. And you are in major denial about the other stuff. Ok. big sister. never had one but I would still have pushed you down in the mud. Doubtful about the denial, im more brutal with myself then anyone.
True intimacy and vulnerability require no test. They only require honesty an self knowledge without delusion. Life is not a dress rehearsal. Its a test everyday. Honesty and self knowledge sound delightful. your sitch demonstrates on both sides that intimacy requires a HUGE test.
just another way of protecting himself from getting hurt, then justifying it as weakness on the part of the woman because she couldn’t pass some test. yes it most certainly is.
I can be as picky as I want. protection is a part of well being. as mojo is telling me, the 'girls' that become enamored are not viable mates. the ones that dislike my 'do nothing' Im not man enough for. Lets not talk about my issues.
Lets talk about garnering respect and attraction from y'alls mates.
GGB
(I've told her I'd have to tie her up and bring her to an 'O', to which she's replied that if I tied her up it would be the last time I'd ever see her nekid).
pretty over the top reaction to a little bit of play dont you think? I wonder why that would be.
how have you approached it? have you tried something like
GGB: (dead serious) Really. ....... ....... You would [i]never[/] have sex with me again, because I wanted to play around and try something differant. Is that what you are saying? Wow. huh. (ponder and let it go)
Id be happy to discuss differant ides, (and hear womens opinions) if you want to discuss this more.
He was trying to pierce my illusion that things were okay by letting me know that things weren't okay with him. The problem for me was that there was no way for me to "fix" what wasn't okay with him and therefore no way for me to restore the "happy family life" that I wanted. So my H got what he wanted in terms of rendering me more vulnerable because I, of course, responded by crying but the interaction actually decreased our intimacy or it maybe it made him feel more intimate with me because now I was unhappy too but it made me want to distance myself because I wanted to be happy This is exactly the verbal exchange x and I had that invalidated her. the specifics are the differant but its exactly the same. she was seeking trust and I wouldnt give it. She didnt get over it. I wanted reality and she wanted lala land. she felt hopeless. (severe invalidation)
If I didnt trust her there was no point. I believed one thing, she didnt want me too, I did anyways, ....and so she proved me right.
OTOH, I don't think that I should take BFs advice and act LD just to get what I want I did not say that. I said you should be authentic. I didnt say act LD and neither should you act HD when you are not appreciating his behavior toward you. You have tremendous Value. own it and take care of it. I didnt say tell him 'no'. When I went thru a period where I was absolutely sick of having sex with x, I didnt tell her no. I didnt invalidate, and I didnt martyr. I was still not enthused. I dont know how you come off, IRL, but sometimes you come off here, as just wanting sex for sex. I understand, nothing wrong with that. but that could make your H feel insignificant, if its chronic and you make verbal remarks in that same vein.
I learned to MB when I was 12 or 13 by reading a book on female sexuality that my Mom left around the house and did it regularly about 2 or 3x a week x learned when she was 10, on her own, with no books. she MB everyday after that.
The fact that you were ready to lose your virginity at 15 is neither abnormal nor a surprise. Thats slightly above the 'normal' marrying age thruout human history. Thinking people magically become adults at 18, accountable for their actions, old enough to legally fck (depending on the state of course), able to die for their country, but not old enough to drink is the most asinine set of contradictory impositions.
If I do let my little joy juice pump work I can put some of the energy into things like learning how to make pickles or taking long hikes or designing/digging a catfish pond but if I think about my body at all I will want sex While I dont think cemar would choose pickle making, Im sure he knows exactly what you mean.
Sort of the equivalent of being someone who wants to eat cookies in response to stress but also wants to eat cookies in order to celebrate.
OMG, I am cracking up!!! Thank you for the laugh!
That being said, Ive 'biten' and had a great reaction, and Ive 'biten' and had a bad reaction. I dont really care. I dont have to do it, I just like to check out the reaction. Either way, it doesnt matter to me.
Well, I've gotten good and bad reactions to the occasional nip at a bicep that I've taken also. Really, I don't actually bite, more like just testing the muscle with my teeth for throwdown potential. Obviously, I don't HAVE to do it but I really WANT to sometimes. The reaction I would PREFER would be for the guy to pin me down with those muscles and do something similarly aggressive and animalistic to some part of my body. But it's not a big deal if I don't get that reaction. If the guy remains rather passive I would just usually take the tone down a notch and maybe switch to doing something like kissing his neck or licking his nipple. I'm flexible. I like it slow and easy too.
Who does a man tell the differance and more importantly how does he make her feel safe enough to go there with him?
How the f*ck would I know? If a guy is doing something to me that I don't like I tell him or make the necessary shift or non-verbal communication. That's part of being sexually mature. I also freely indicate when I would like something to continue or if I haven't achieved orgasm if it isn't really obvious. Any woman who can't come right out and say "Finish me off baby" with a smile is not a sexually mature woman IMHO. Why should the man have to take on all that responsibility? I mean sometimes you can tell that the man wants the responsibility like he wants to know that he made you orgasm and I like to sort of relax into that too but to just lie there like a cold unresponsive chicken-sh*tted fish and make the guy do all the work, I just don't get it.
Okay end of tirade. I will try to imagine a man doing something so extremely kinky that it would make me feel unsafe. What could he do to make me feel safer? Well, he could set up things beforehand in a way that made me feel cared for. Get me feeling all warm before he whipped out whatever freaky thing he had in mind. Also, in my experience, it is helpful to me to have some time to think about something beforehand and also it is helpful to know what about the fantasy or behavior makes the guy feel aroused when he thinks about it. It is helpful to have an answer to the question "Why would anyone want to do that?". For instance, let's say a guy wanted to use a giant dildo on me while he jacked off and I didn't get it. If he were to say "It makes me feel like I have a giant cock when I do it." I would be able to get into the groove much better. I would understand my role and be able to find the source of my arousal. ( I should note that this isn't at all a scary scenario to me. I just don't want to shock the audience with anything scarier.)
I appreciate where you are going with this. The whole post gave me a flicker of hope. If your trying to help me with my issues, thank you, much appreciated, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Whoever originally we were not talking about sex specifically. so Its really a irrelevant point. We were talking about attractive masculinity in general. If you arent attractive you cant appeal to the woman.
You're welcome. Well, it's a two way street. There are some men that I find immediately masculine and attractive and other men grow on me in that way. Because I am HD I WANT to find the masculinity in the man that I'm with. I seek it out and encourage it. Though sometimes I f*ck up in this regard, obviously, it is NEVER my intention.I don't think that there is a HDM on this BB that I wouldn't end up having regular sex with if we were stranded on a desert island. If knowing that is insulting to the man I'm actually with, tough noogies. Grow up. If you want a woman with a sex drive of her own, don't expect her to pretend like she got it from you.
This is exactly the verbal exchange x and I had that invalidated her. the specifics are the differant but its exactly the same. she was seeking trust and I wouldnt give it. She didnt get over it. I wanted reality and she wanted lala land. she felt hopeless. (severe invalidation)
If I didnt trust her there was no point. I believed one thing, she didnt want me too, I did anyways, ....and so she proved me right.
I'm sorry I don't understand this. You will have to be more specific.
I dont know how you come off, IRL, but sometimes you come off here, as just wanting sex for sex. I understand, nothing wrong with that. but that could make your H feel insignificant, if its chronic and you make verbal remarks in that same vein.
First off give me some credit for being a generally courteous person and in particular a courteous lover. I compliment my H on what I do appreciate about his specific sexuality quite frequently and I don't say things like "Time to give Mojo a c*ck ride." unless I think they will be appreciated in the humorous vein in which they are offered. If he can't accept the fact that I do in fact want sex for the sake of sex fairly frequently then that is HIS problem. It doesn't have to be mine. Really. I think that pretty much sums up the whole Schnarchian philosophy.
While I dont think cemar would choose pickle making, Im sure he knows exactly what you mean.
If you are trying to insult me by comparing me to CeMar it won't work. I love the guy to death. I would hug him like a ragtag teddy bear if I could.
Cobra,
I am ready to sign the contract on the summer solstice if my H has not exercised his option to first dibs. Please let me know if this will be acceptable. I do think there are a few details that need to be worked out vis-a-vis where we will live and other related practical matters. Also, as you noted, I did just sort of quickly draft up the contract. For instance, it was only implied that you would contribute 60% of the income and it might be better if we discussed our level of comfort with some of the sexual preferences we might exchange on our "pick" nights.
Soon to be Yours,
Mojo
LFL said I just don't think the "throwdown" technique will work right after GGB just said it did work. just because she has a boundary, or a wall, or a fear in another area lets not lump it all together. I would really like to hear the specifics of what happened and more importantly his reaction to it.
Huh? Am I missing something here? Didn't GGB say he got beamed in the head for the attempted "throwdown" technique?
And BF, you cannot just separate the technique from the boundary/wall/fear the woman might have. It's not much of a technique if it doesn't work.
That's why I said the LD "issues" need to be at least somewhat addressed before the "throwdown technique" will work.
Comparing HD women to LD women is apples and oranges.
Same can be said for HD men and LD men.
As a woman, I cannot approach a LD man the same way I would a HD man. And neither should men. A sexual relationship is the combination with THOSE TWO people's drives, fears, etc and will vary as much as anything else. Giving blanket advice to people is thus, usually not effective.
LFL
right before he talked about getting beaned, which is a fear response on her part he said he had some succes with
"I have had some limited success with figuratively throwing her over my shoulder and having my way (e.g. pushing her down on the bed and going for it). '
If I got beaned in the head, I would stop that particular line of effort. I dont think masculinity always means drag her back to the cave litterally.
There are all types, including control freaks, abuse victims, hormonally indifferant, etc. With the exception of hormonally indifferant, I dont believe in LDwomen. I believe in Relationally LD.
Now so more then ever.
GEL was LD, untill she learned not to be. Thats the norm.
There are all types, including control freaks, abuse victims, hormonally indifferant, etc. With the exception of hormonally indifferant, I dont believe in LDwomen. I believe in Relationally LD.
I think there are many women who are simply sexually immature. GEL's story would confirm my theory also. Our society serves to suppress female sexuality in general and sometimes women really need a break in terms of being with a super-supportive guy in order to get over that repression. I think that is what happened with GEL and the man she was with who made it "easy" for her to be sexual. A woman who is fully sexually mature but chooses to stay in a relationship that makes her feel LD within that relationship will be conscious of why that is happening and free to choose to take action to change the situation or not. For instance, if I was with a man who wanted to have sex every day but always in some sort of "Wham-Bam" style, I would probably start to feel LD but I would know what to do to change that. Of course, my honesty might cause the guy to become LD himself or choose to leave the relationship but that would be the risk that I took in entering that sort of crucible.
When Cobra and I are married, I might find that I am totally turned off by the activity that he chooses for his "pick" night but I think that we are both differentiated enough to deal with me saying with a smile "That really doesn't do it for me but I can tell that you like it so here I be.".
Just to clarify, the getting beaned on the head was in response to pinning her down. She seems to have a severe aversion to being restrained, whether it be by pinning or by tying. I've had some successes with the throwdown, but nothing I can consistently hang my hat on, as it seems she has to already be feeling a little randy for it to be appreciated.
I dont believe in LDwomen. I believe in Relationally LD.
I tend to agree with this also. That's what I meant when I said all sexual relationships will vary depending on the two people's makeup.
But who cares when we are talking about M, right? We are with who we are with and we need to work with what we got.
You are in a great position now to figure out a lot of your own sh*t so that you don't have M #2 self-destruct.
It's obvious from what you have said that your ex was very HD. You were as well until the relationship crap muddied it all up. Typical.
I think others have made some good points that you may want to "take it down a notch" in terms of your views of.....well...just about everything. Not to pick on you, and Nop, and Cobra, but those names come to mind when I think of people who are overly self assure, to the point of self-righteous. Many women will rebel against that as we have seen. Nop seems to have worked it out and kudos to him. But that is certainly not typical.
I am really not trying to be an Azz here, I am trying to give you some constructive feedback. Too much Alpha is the kiss of death. You need to look for happy medium. Maybe that is what IHJ (sorry NJ) meant when she said being with an "ultra top" would eventually cause some psychological damage. She can jump in here and answer that herself. But for now I'll answer for LFL. I think that initial attraction to that type is hard to sustain long-term because eventally, as much as the woman wants to be a sexual "bottom" it would turn her into an unwilling psychological "bottom." Maybe your ex was tired of your strong persona after a while because she was not seeing any vulnerability, care, tenderness, etc. Most women (I think) want and need that.
I dont relate cemar to an insult. Whats with you ladies. He basically said a few days ago, 'When I do (fillintheblank) I want sex. When I think about my body I want sex.' makes sense to me.
If he can't accept the fact that I do in fact want sex for the sake of sex fairly frequently then that is HIS problem. It doesn't have to be mine. Really. I think that pretty much sums up the whole Schnarchian philosophy.
Thats exactly what I thought about putting my woman in a 'do nothing' crucible. expecting her to be feminine when I am being unmasculine. just typing that makes it apparent how patently absurd that is. Thank you.
Ms. HD wants her man to be more top. she does it with force of personality. you do it with sex. It is your problem if it is a problem for your SO. If you are not filling there needs, there is a problem.
Your H needs some boundaries from you. He doenst need you to withdraw.
I watched x dance around like water in a sizzling wok. It was not conciously premeditated or intentional.. neither was it differentiated. it was stupid.
our H needs some boundaries from you. He doenst need you to withdraw.
I agree completely. What makes you think that I don't? However, I believe that there is at least a 50% chance that when I set those boundaries he will leave me. If you are more optimistic than I guess maybe you know something that I don't about my husband. Otherwise, you are just promoting some sort of sexist agenda that states that the woman is the one who needs to change her perspective and her desires in order to make the relationship work. Here is how I am different than MsHD. I am going to tell my H exactly what I want from him in clear terms that he can either choose to meet or not. Either he is going to agree to some reasonable compromise of the contract that I offered to Cobra or I am going to leave. There is nothing in that contract that my H isn't capable of choosing to agree to or not. Some of the items I will state directly and others I will simply enact as boundaries if that is possible. I will accomplish all of this by the summer solstice or I will mark myself as a failure, leave this BB for good and continue to suffer in my, clearly, self-imposed misery. What I will not do is try to philosophize or punish myself for wanting what I want. What I want is absolutely reasonable and attainable as long as I don't have the fused expectation that my H wants exactly the same things. If he chooses to leave me because he hopes to find a woman who will honor a better or different contract then that is absolutely his right and I will respect it. If your take on the matter is that I signed a life contract with unalterable terms of unconditional commitment when I was 23 and pregnant then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. Besides you know that is bullsh*t. I'm sure you could list a hundred reasons that you would think were valid for leaving a marriage but you just don't like mine because it's a little too close to the reason that your IMO totally b*tchy xwife chose. I sometimes get the vibe that you are viewing me as being like her but that just isn't the case because I have never cheated on a man in my life and I never will. It's unethical and it's chickensh*t and I have absolutely no respect for anyone who does it and I knew that when I was 15. My Daddy taught me better than that.
I should add that the other way in which I am different from you wife is that I don't believe that it is reasonable to expect your partner to fulfill your every sexual desire. I think it is ridiculous that you had a "Never Say No" contract. However, I do believe that it is necessary to have some sort of contract that both parties agree to honor or else it is the equivalent of having a "It's alway okay to say No" contract which is equally ridiculous. The 3x a week scenario that I outlined in my proposal is just an example of a contract to which I might agree. If my H were to offer any sort of reasonable compromise I would almost certainly agree to it. I don't know how far back you've read in my history but every sexual agreement that I have tried to make with him he has broken. He is willing to commit to nothing.
I dont know if its my style or the new format, but every since the new rollout, Ive noticed posts are not a personable.
I'm sure you could list a hundred reasons that you would think were valid for leaving a marriage but you just don't like mine because it's a little too close to the reason that your IMO totally b*tchy xwife chose. I sometimes get the vibe that you are viewing me as being like her but that just isn't the case because I have never cheated on a man in my life and I never will
I can think of lots of reasons to leave a marriage. Infidelity is way up there. Seriously, If my needs were not being taken care of I would leave. I do.
Ive realized that sex really does nothing to add LU, but the lack of it quickly withdraws them for me.
I dont compare you to x at all, your nothing alike. Is it that time? and if so are you regular so I can keep track of when this is going to happen again. LFL Mojo needs some chocolate.
Your writing style and the obvious discrepancy between your board persona and your IRL one I find highly amusing. Your opinion on x is nearly the same as every female that knows me. The only exceptions are here on the forum. I guess I see her thru rose colored glasses because I just saw a confused spoiled brat. She pulled out the claws a couple times, but she readily put them away when given a choice of using them or being declawed.
back to you.
I will accomplish all of this by the summer solstice or I will mark myself as a failure, leave this BB for good and continue to suffer in my, clearly, self-imposed misery.
This is self defeating. Your placing a time limit on a a equation with endless unknown variables. you dont control your emotions or your H's. Your setting yourself up to fail. you cannot be a failure, in a equation with an uncontrollable factor. thats really negative internal voice. You can get as creative as you want with the descriptors, but its not going to change the human emotions.
What I want is absolutely reasonable and attainable as long as I don't have the fused expectation that my H wants exactly the same things
what you want is reasonable. How you are going about it, not necessarily so reasonable. youve recently come upon a lot of inner value. Invariable that leads to retaliation for previous unreasonable expectations placed on us and being returned in kind with our unreasonable expectations. Thats not taking ownership for having failed to implement boundaries.
What I will not do is try to philosophize or punish myself for wanting what I want. good. I doubt it, but good.
There is nothing in that contract that my H isn't capable of choosing to agree to or not. Some of the items I will state directly and others I will simply enact as boundaries if that is possible your right. as long as he isnt human.
how you implement boundaries is just as important as doing it. If you implement them in such a way that your H is forced to be more top then you in order to satisfy it, then you just nullified everything you told me about looking for a woman that meets you face to face and gives from the ask.
I understand though if thats the case.
our 'never say no' contract was based on respect I feel.
during her period, all sex was initiated by her. I did tell her no three times once because I didnt want too, and twice because it was not appropriate. I dont even remember how many times she said no for whatever reason, because it simply didnt faze. When she had girl problems (not her Period) I wouldnt want to. She would. She would hurt after wards and I couldnt stand it.
During the time period when I almost came close to going for my PA, Im pretty sure she was sick of having sex with me. It was wierd I had a really attractive vibe going, we had no emotional connection, it was just habit doing it mostly everyday, and she (im sure) felt something, and stepped up to the plate in the way that she could. Unlike me when she was close to failing. I just continued 'doing nothing'.
and she (im sure) felt something, and stepped up to the plate in the way that she could. Unlike me
Why are you so quick to protect your x and rip on yourself?
She sensed something going on and did what women have been doing for millenia--used sex to keep her man. Nothing wrong with that.
In a similar circumstance, you did what men do--get violently possessive.
You put a great deal of emphasis on the man leading and how you could have avoided the trainwreck and I mostly agree with this. However, you gotta consider the quality of individual you are trying to lead. Not every woman radiates integrity and strength. That's not to say she's a bitch; it may only mean that she is immature and needs to make these collosal mistakes in order to figure out who she is. Otoh, it may mean that it was never there and it never will be. Maybe you were trying to lead a person who was not built of the strong stuff you thought she was.
I go back and forth on your sitch. On one hand I think Criminately blackfoot, people are human beings not robots. They make mistakes and have weaknesses, even big ones. Otoh I admire your insistence on integrity.
I suppose the purpose of my post is to say Give yourself a break once in a while. And, yes, I'm aware that since that piece of unsolicited advice came from a woman that you will automatically discount it. Don't worry, I'm quite used to that treatment from my own dear nice alpha(beta) man.
Mojo wrote re her H
I believe that there is at least a 50% chance that when I set those boundaries he will leave me.
This man will NEVER leave you. How would he eat, for one thing? You've already established that he can't even make himself a PBJ or phone for pizza. Where would his clean clothes come from? He is convinced he will NEVER find another woman who will coddle him and put up with his moods and his cr@p the way you do.
He also thinks you will never leave him.
OTOH if you DID leave him, I predict that he would be with a new partner within a few months and that he can in fact find someone who will coddle him EVEN MORE than you do, and who will be convinced that his moods are the sign of a deep personality who has not fulfilled his potential because all previous women didn't truly appreciate him. IOW, he'll find someone who is the psychological twin of his mother.
And you will be SOOOO happy that it won't be your problem any more. And you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner.
Or, she leaves him partly out of some twisted desire to see what he would do with himself without her by his side and finds he is functioning fairly well without her. Maybe finding some hot new thing to date. The world did not crumble around him and she decides she really does love him and wants to try again.
I small part of me wonders if this was my H's thought process, even if very subconsciously.
Is it that time? and if so are you regular so I can keep track of when this is going to happen again. LFL Mojo needs some chocolate.
LOL- No. FYI I only get cr*bby for one day and unfortunately I can't tell you exactly when that will be since I don't keep good track since I got my tubes tied.
Your writing style and the obvious discrepancy between your board persona and your IRL one I find highly amusing
Interesting. I would say that the main difference is that I am "on" on the BB and obviously more "off" in less social settings. My BB personality is pretty much like my party or business meeting personality. Also, my personality does become somewhat whacko-fused in relation to my H. One s*cky thing about my relationship is that my H doesn't appreciate my sense of humor because he wants to be the funny one or something like that.
Your opinion on x is nearly the same as every female that knows me.
Well, as I said before, you are clearly a nice boy although I do find some of your theories annoying. Therefore, your X must be a b*tch. Of course, I could look at it the other way and say since you are a nice boy your X must have been a nice girl too and the two of you just f*cked up and should forgive yourselves and move on.
This is self defeating. Your placing a time limit on a a equation with endless unknown variables. you dont control your emotions or your H's. Your setting yourself up to fail. you cannot be a failure, in a equation with an uncontrollable factor. thats really negative internal voice. You can get as creative as you want with the descriptors, but its not going to change the human emotions.
What I meant to say is that my goal will be to implement all the practical steps implied by the contract by the summer solstice. Really I'm not saying anything different than HD telling himself that he will continue to say "I want to have sex once a week". I'm just being a little ch*ckenshitted and giving myself a lot of time because I am dealing with more than one issue that might throw my H into the crucible and vice versa.
what you want is reasonable. How you are going about it, not necessarily so reasonable. youve recently come upon a lot of inner value. Invariable that leads to retaliation for previous unreasonable expectations placed on us and being returned in kind with our unreasonable expectations. Thats not taking ownership for having failed to implement boundaries.
If I understand what you are saying I would think that if what you are saying is true I would feel angry at my H. I don't. I am taking ownership for failing to have implemented boundaries. I can see my own fault here clearly. That doesn't mean that my H will. He may get angry and choose to leave because he will be hurt by the boundaries that I set in the same way I used to feel hurt when he set certain boundaries. I am fully cognizant of the fact that he will almost certainly try to set new boundaries himself if I proceed. You are right to say that I can't thoroughly predict my reaction but I can do it a heck of a lot better than I could 3 years ago. I am more functional and differentiated. No lie.-LOL
What I will not do is try to philosophize or punish myself for wanting what I want. good. I doubt it, but good.
LOL- Well I'll try anyways. I see the light through a haze but at least I see it.
how you implement boundaries is just as important as doing it. If you implement them in such a way that your H is forced to be more top then you in order to satisfy it, then you just nullified everything you told me about looking for a woman that meets you face to face and gives from the ask.
I understand though if thats the case.
I really wish that you would give me a concrete example of how a person can state or get what they want without being assertive. If simply being assertive makes me unfeminine than it s*cks to be a female because I'll never get anything I want in life. If that is the case then I might as well give up on having a relationship with a man and go live alone in my cottage with an orchard.
When I was more fused in my HD I didn't like the idea of scheduling or contracting a sexual relationship because I felt like the need to schedule implied rejection. I thought that a "never say no" contract would be a good thing because it would protect my feelings from ever again being hurt by rejection. Now I think that I was insane to feel that way. There are a lot of good reasons why a man might not "want" to have sex with me. However, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't "want" to have sex. It also doesn't mean that I should accept the equally fused option of a virtual "Always okay to say no" contract because my H's feelings might be hurt because of the implied rejection of his inherent sexuality that a contract or schedule would imply. On one occasion my H said "Don't you want me to want to have sex with you?". The answer is "yes" but the answer is also "yes" to the question "Do I want to have regular sex?". I hope that you understood that the "ask" goes both ways in my analogy. If I as an adult woman am willing to honor a contract that implies that sometimes I might be too fat or whatever to be attractive and sometimes my partner and I will have different fantasies that don't necessarily jive and a certain frequency might only be a reasonable compromise in terms of actual desire than I expect the same from my H. A contract is an agreement and an agreement is two people "asking" and "answering".
Or, she leaves him partly out of some twisted desire to see what he would do with himself without her by his side and finds he is functioning fairly well without her. Maybe finding some hot new thing to date. The world did not crumble around him and she decides she really does love him and wants to try again.
I hope that my H would find a hot new thing to date if I left him. I want him to have a hot sex life with or without me. I care for the man after all and I truly wish that everyone on the planet even Rush Limbaugh could have a hot sex life. If my H could better get his groove on with some other woman that would be great. For instance, if he decides that my boundary stating that I am only willing to keep my weight within the healthy guidelines of the surgeon general is bullsh*t and he wants someone really thin, more power to him! All my former feelings of possessiveness are way out the window.
Mojo,
How would this be a "top me being the top" test?
Well, my comment was on the heels of NJ’s comment:
That joy juice pump is an essential part of you and yours to keep and treasure. The problem is not that you have a JJP, it's that you activate it to full blast in response to negative crap from your H.
I was actually thinking that you turn on the JJP full blast not just to negative crap, but to any situation where you have hopes of getting male attention, like when you set your mind on seducing that 20 year old. Though I know we are playing a game here, the impression I got was whoa…. Mojo can really turn up the jets when she catches a whiff of maleness in the air. That sudden jump of assertiveness puts you in the top position very quickly, and if we were to take this game into reality, I would feeling like I have to top your top.
Now that may not be all bad, and I think I could throw you down like a rag doll and ravage you till you’re black and blue, but I’m not sure your prima donna H wants to have that pressure (well, if you call it pressure). So when you mentioned somewhere back in this thread that you weren’t sure how to be less assertive, maybe this would be an example.
I was also trying to understand what I was feeling from your quick, thorough and seemingly serious contract proposal. I think I was feeling a little off-balance. I also suspect you may have been feeling very much on-balance and in control. So I wonder if maybe this sexual aggression you show is really another form of defense. It is a strange one, to be sure. Most women use defenses to avoid the intimacy of sex, but I get the feeling you use sex to avoid intimacy. Could it be that the quicker you can jump to the act, the lower the possibility of rejection and hurt? In other words, rejection usually comes about before sex occurs. By jumping straight into sex, you short circuit this possibility, and if you can get the guy aroused, the chance of rejection falls to nearly zero. So you feel safe and connected. So in this perverse way, could you be using sex to avoid the rejection of sex?
Now that may not be all bad, and I think I could throw you down like a rag doll and ravage you till you’re black and blue, but I’m not sure your prima donna H wants to have that pressure (well, if you call it pressure). So when you mentioned somewhere back in this thread that you weren’t sure how to be less assertive, maybe this would be an example.
ROTFLMAO- Very good. The posts from the men on my thread the last few days have been very instructive to me. At first I was very confused by BF's assertion that I was trying to "test" men by getting them to "top my top". It was confusing to me because that's not how it feels to me. To me it feels more like I'm doing the man a favor by "priming his pump". So I thought about it some more and I realized that if a man was in denial or out of touch with the link between his sexuality and aggression then he would react badly to such behavior from me because really what I'm doing when I behave in that manner is "taunting" the man into "raping" me. In my mind (or somewhere lower) it is just a ramped up version of playing "naughty". I'm picking a fight that I want to lose just like I'd be committing a transgression for which I wanted to get "punished" if I was playing "naughty". So I am expecting the man to be as much in touch with his "top" as I am with my "bottom" and that's probably asking a lot of a guy because I'm a very "bottomy-bottom" (kind of sounds like I'm a bunny again doesn't it-LOL). Anyway you get a gold "yum" star for your use of "ravage" and "black and blue". I would advise any man who encounters a woman who behaves in this manner to read the Serbian Mock Rape section of The Joy of Sex and go right for her ankles.
Could it be that the quicker you can jump to the act, the lower the possibility of rejection and hurt? In other words, rejection usually comes about before sex occurs. By jumping straight into sex, you short circuit this possibility, and if you can get the guy aroused, the chance of rejection falls to nearly zero. So you feel safe and connected. So in this perverse way, could you be using sex to avoid the rejection of sex?
Interesting theory. It doesn't "feel" like that to me but who knows. Probably I'm too lazy and easily bored to just hop around waiting for some guy to chase me. Also as I indicated in an earlier post in my experience if you make yourself easy to catch it kills the guy's desire so you really have to do a lot of hopping to get a guy revved up. I guess I just like to "cut to the chase".
The funny thing is that this is definitely long-time behavior for me. When I was in the Fifth Grade I flirted with my first boyfriend whose last name was MacGregor by playing "The Campbells are Coming" on the piano at the school talent show. He "got it" and asked me out on a "date" shortly afterward. I remember that we also had one "fight" about religion because he was an atheist and I wasn't at the time. My argument was that there must be a god because the religion books were in the non-fiction section of the library.-LOL (I hope my powers of reasoning have improved a bit since then)
Noun
provocative
1. Anything that is provocative; a stimulant; as, a provocative of appetite.
[edit] Adjective
provocative
1. Serving or tending to provoke, excite, or stimulate; exciting.
Use it in a sentence. -Mojo is naturally provocative.
I suppose the purpose of my post is to say Give yourself a break once in a while. And, yes, I'm aware that since that piece of unsolicited advice came from a woman that you will automatically discount it. Women have taught me about my weak areas more then I ever could have figured out, and gave me the desire to hammer them out. I listen. sometimes. not so she would notice though. It would have been a lot more effective to proactively be protectively jealous, then reactively violently possesive. I cant believe I actually have the words violently possesive attributed to me in this life. Where is the 'reset' button. Damn, Its not working. What do you mean I cant uninstall? I dont like this new OS. Its pretty but really buggy.
I would like to say I never touched her, or wanted to, nor was she ever afraid for herself that way.
you are clearly a nice boy although I do find some of your theories annoying. Annoyingly correct. I know. Trust me, they occasionally annoy me just as much.
I am more functional and differentiated. No lie.-LOL
LOL Yes you are. Kudos to your H for dealing with you back then.
Your doing really good.
really wish that you would give me a concrete example of how a person can state or get what they want without being assertive. If simply being assertive makes me unfeminine than it s*cks to be a female because I'll never get anything I want in life. If that is the case then I might as well give up on having a relationship with a man and go live alone in my cottage with an orchard.
Gosh, I give give give and you want more.
This is a good thing you and HP to work on together. Mrs. Nop can give you ideas, and Corri is having a lot of fun with it too. you can be assertive and self protective without being dominating or retaliatory. Your not dominating with your H. Trying that will not be congruent. You just need to stand still and stick up for yourself. Have a couple glasses of red wine, if you want to.
I hope that you understood that the "ask" goes both ways in my analogy. If I as an adult woman ... A contract is an agreement and an agreement is two people "asking" and "answering". applesauce and cheers. you have to learn how to ask then if the other is not answering. Just like HDM do. and BTW, I know you are a courteous and open lover.
he decides that my boundary stating that I am only willing to keep my weight within the healthy guidelines of the surgeon general is bullsh*t and he wants someone really thin, more power to him! one thing important about giving someone else boundaries is being able to accept theres without personalizing. If he wants you to be unhealthy thats up to you to set a boundary. I seriously doubt that though.
LustForLife:
I agree 100%. LD men have nothing in common with HD men. What this means is that the HD woman/LD man problem must be approached in a completely different fashion. LD men are more like LD women then anything else.
I talked with my H this morning about some of the issues I brought up in my "contract". I wasn't planning on it but the opportunity presented itself. We were eating breakfast and my H was just sitting there all sullen and then he said "I feel like cr*p". I didn't say anything but my thought to myself was a mildly annoyed "What's new?". So we just sat there uncomfortably for a while. Eventually a convo started and my H made the comment "You aren't much of a counselor." which gave me the opportunity to say in really a very kind manner "I'm not your counselor. I'm your wife.". The convo continued and at some point I said something like "I would appreciate it if you would do a better job taking care of yourself so that you could do a better job meeting my needs/wants as your wife." and I brought up some of the contract stuff but not in a laundry list sort of way. More like I was trying to convey that this stuff would make me happy not THESE ARE MY DEMANDS. My H went sort of ballistic when I said something like "Maybe you want to consider yourself a failure in order to avoid your fear of failure." (channeling LP)in response to some completely negative self-esteem remark of his but mostly the convo was low key and on an adult level. However, I wouldn't exactly call it a success. My H pretty much stated that what I wanted was reasonable and I deserved it but he wouldn't be able to provide it because of his crappy state of being. The low point of the convo IMO was when he said "You know nobody is going to give you a medal for staying with me.". Nothing was resolved and for the rest of the day we interacted with each other with a mix of kindness and depression.
you are clearly a nice boy although I do find some of your theories annoying. Annoyingly correct. I know. Trust me, they occasionally annoy me just as much.
No some are wrong. Especially the one where you think that I am consistently sexual in my marriage because my H is so sexy. I have never turned a guy down for sex in any relationship that I've been in except for practical reasons. It's all me. Which of course proves that your theories about ME are probably correct (sigh).
You just need to stand still and stick up for yourself.
Well, I don't know how well I did. I think I erred on the side of falling back into my "enabler mother" mode. I really am having a hard time figuring out what feminine persona should be "asking" for what I want.
one thing important about giving someone else boundaries is being able to accept theres without personalizing. If he wants you to be unhealthy thats up to you to set a boundary. I seriously doubt that though.
I get this. I didn't really think this was the case I was just using it as an example. I'm really not quite as fixated on the weight issue as it might seem I just use it as an example because it is so concrete compared to other issues.
Mo,
Your H is SOOOO much like mine. He too has a type 2 mother.
I don't know how far back you've read in my history but every sexual agreement that I have tried to make with him he has broken. He is willing to commit to nothing.
No sh!t. Of course he hasn't, he has never had to since the day his mum told him to hang his coat on the hook and he got away with pretending he couldn't. Again my H is exactly the same way he has broken every agreement we have ever made that requires him to step up to the plate in some way.
The problem with having a type 2 for a mother is that it never requires the person to find out what they are capable of and it leaves their self esteem in their boots. My DD5 is a manipulative little miss who loves to cry and create a drama and say she can't. When she behaves that way I tell her she can go and stand in the utility room for a while and then decide if she can or can't. It usually turns out she can. When my kids climb trees and then cry for help coming out of the tree I say "you climbed in, you can climb out" they weep, they moan, they get angry with me and call me names, they act like they are just about to lose their grip and tumble (4 feet) to their deaths. I hang out somewhere roughly near the tree saying things like "I know you can do it - there's a branch about an inch below your foot reach down for it". They come out of the tree and run off skipping with happy smiles on their faces. I don't feel a need to be their hero or rescuer by lifting them down out of the tree and nothing gives me greater pleasure than the fact they skip off AWAY from me to carry on enjoying their fun-packed little lives. I can well imagine Mojo that your have been exactly the same way with your own kids.
So why can't we do it with our H's? Because this kind of manipulative behaviour in an adult is alien to us, and therefore we don't see it for what it is, we kind of believe there really must be something wrong for a grown man to be acting that way. When your H acts like he will starve to death if you don't leave him dinner in a crockpot he is ACTING LIKE A 3 YEAR OLD. Next time your H is stuck up that tree resist the urge to lift him down, maybe even give the tree a bit of a shake (he he he).
You're a type 7, I'm a type 9 with strong 7 tendencies (it's my 2nd highest score and by the narrowest of margins). I believe these type 4 guys who were brought up by type 2 mums were attracted to us precisely because of our non-2-ness. Because they know deep down that that is what they really need, they really need someone who trusts them to climb out of the tree on their own. But under stress they just can't help reverting back to the whiny little 3 year old that needs his type 2 mummy. And they can be REALLY convincing. Your H's suicide threats are precisely in this modus operandi.
The reason my kids make their way out of the tree fine is not because I ignore them. It is because I convey my firm belief that they CAN do it - so they do. I have been shifting my attitude of late to my H, I got past the enabling stage a while back, and then I went into indifferent mode, but now I working on being in firm belief mode and that seems to be working better.
Next time you go to an evening sale, leave the house without worrying about dinner, when H moans just turn to him, smile and say I'm sure you'll be fine.
That is what your (and my) H need to hear more than anything else
complete faith in their ability to be fine.
My H pretty much stated that what I wanted was reasonable and I deserved it but he wouldn't be able to provide it because of his crappy state of being.
That's his tree. Leave him to climb out of it on his own.
take care
Fran
p.s. Anytime you want to come and visit the gardens of England let me know we can go round them together and then come back to my place for afternoon tea (or gin whichever
)
Again my H is exactly the same way he has broken every agreement we have ever made that requires him to step up to the plate in some way I dont believe this. In fact, I know its not true from what you have told us.
The reason my kids make their way out of the tree fine is not because I ignore them. It is because I convey my firm belief that they CAN do it - so they do. I have been shifting my attitude of late to my H, I got past the enabling stage a while back, and then I went into indifferent mode, but now I working on being in firm belief mode and that seems to be working better.
Mojo
The low point of the convo IMO was when he said "You know nobody is going to give you a medal for staying with me.". Its not a low point its an opportunity.
Mojo: yes they will. My kids give me a medal for it everyday, and I give myself a medal. You get a big red 'F' for being nice though. Im going to buy myself something pretty, and Im Not doing the dishes. Bye.
I'm really not quite as fixated on the weight issue as it might seem I just use it as an example because it is so concrete compared to other issues. I believe you. It is easy with the concrete stuff.
'Oh you want me to make more money. Ok. done' ' Oh you want me to spend more time with you. Ok. done'
'Oh you want to to stop being mean. Ok done'
'Oh you want me to act like a man.... Um. (head scratch) uh ... but look, I did all that other stuff you wanted... '
H made the comment "You aren't much of a counselor." which gave me the opportunity to say in really a very kind manner "I'm not your counselor. I'm your wife."
Do you happen to remember the tv show, "Chico and the Man"? Freddy Prinze played the Puerto Rican auto mechanic to Jack Albertson's Jewish auto shop owner. Sometimes, when the boss would ask Chico to do something particularly unpleasant, he'd reply, "It's not my job, man." Except, of course, Prinze would deadpan it and lay on that great Chicano accent and it came out sounding like, "Ees not my chob, man."
I like that you told him "ees not my chob, man." And I like, especially, that you told him "I would appreciate it if you would do a better job taking care of yourself so that you could do a better job meeting my needs/wants as your wife." This is very schnarchy of you.
Fran is right. Don't help him out of that tree. Don't avoid the evening sales because you fear him starving, or fear his confrontation with you upon your return. He needs you in a lot of different ways, but I think the most important one is what Fran said in her post,
"they really need someone who trusts them to climb out of the tree on their own."Hairdog
BF
Oh yes he has!
Sorry but he has. He steps up to the plate on things that HE wants to do but he reneges on EVERY deal he has ever made with me. Often by the old PA tactic of doing it badly.
I am not saying that he cannot and will not do difficult things or that he cannot be a man, yes he can. But he cannot do anything that I have asked him to do.
Even his committment to never ever leave me again - he just stayed but with bad grace.
I don't want to get all nit picky about this. He and I are doing much better of late. But he does have serious issues about control and at root I think these are down to having an engulfing type 2 mother.
I now feel that I do not have to make deals with him. Deals are a form of control. If you do X I'll do Y. It's like bribing your kids to eat their spinach. What I need to do is leave gaps for him to fill. He can work out on his own that they need filling and I can have a firm belief in his ability to fill them.
Fran
I'm picking a fight that I want to lose just like I'd be committing a transgression for which I wanted to get "punished" if I was playing "naughty". So I am expecting the man to be as much in touch with his "top"
Ever pick a fight that you wanted to lose? If you havent then youll never understand a girls sex drive. You dont have to understand it.
Just dont lose.
It sure is tiresome though. Who wants to beat down the person they care about. And what person in their right mind went into a fight with the intention of not hurting the other one.
Every good conqueror thats who.
Whatever you wreck you have to fix. Thats expensive and time consuming.
Ok ya'll - this has been a very interesting thread. I must admit that all the Mom talk positively "skeeved" me out. My H had a very neglectful, semi-depressed and negative Mom. His reaction to that seems to be to place me on some kind of pedestal of "ideal Mom" (he hates it when I fall off) but he doesn't tolerate me "mothering" him in any way. That being said, I struggled mightily with being placed in the Mom role by my x (he had a narcisstic Mom and really needed someone to re-Mother him). Being the "super-coper" in a marriage seems to just kill the other person's committment to their own "becoming." OTOH - the "super-coper" gets to avoid their own stuff pretty handily. MJ - this role you play in the marriage is totally counter to your goal of sharing your "essential womaness." Do you journal other than here? This would be a great topic for journaling. Where does the natural nurturing instinct of being a woman start and stop and the over-compensating Mothering begin?
Yes - your contract is perfectly reasonable. However, I would wager that it would make no sense to your H except as a yardstick that he could measure his failure against. Therefore, he either won't do a dang thing or he will rebel against it - "I would except your shoes are ugly".
MJ, you are a very remarkable woman and this latest series of posts resonated with me in a way that many of your others have not. Perhaps it is because I am operating at a very primal level myself (8 weeks until this baby is due, I am the very picture of a fertility symbol). Regardless, I strongly identified with your descriptions of your girlhood sexuality. I was physically a late bloomer (not enough body fat to tip the scales of puberty) but I can hardly remember a time when I didn't mb, search the homes I babysat in for porn etc... I wasn't promiscuous by any stretch but it wasn't because I wasn't feelin' it if you know what I mean.
I guess I can sum up my feelings about your recent posts by saying - be "you".
Karen
Though I know we are playing a game here, the impression I got was whoa…. Mojo can really turn up the jets when she catches a whiff of maleness in the air. That sudden jump of assertiveness puts you in the top position very quickly, and if we were to take this game into reality, I would feeling like I have to top your top.
I was thinking about this and although the reason that I threw a "contract" at you was because I remembered that you once posted that you thought arranged marriages might be a good idea and I wanted to josh you out of this theory, I think there is some truth to your theory that there is a certain amount of "self-protection" in my sexual assertiveness. However, it's not that really that I'm using sex to protect myself from intimacy (I really do want the sex too), it's more like I'm sending out my "women" to make a deal for my "girls". What I really should have said in response to your proposal is "I don't know. What do you have to offer a girl?".-LOL.
Your H is SOOOO much like mine. He too has a type 2 mother.
Does your H have an emotionally repressed Type 1 father also?
No sh!t. Of course he hasn't, he has never had to since the day his mum told him to hang his coat on the hook and he got away with pretending he couldn't. Again my H is exactly the same way he has broken every agreement we have ever made that requires him to step up to the plate in some way.
Yes, it is maddening. As I have posted before if I asked my H to commit to drinking beer and watching football with me every Sunday, he wouldn't keep that deal either. I thoroughly believe that a man shouldn't constantly kowtow to his W if he wants to earn her respect but there is a difference between supplicating and honoring a contract and why should we want to be in a marriage, an institution which is a contract, with men who won't honor contracts? We would have to be idiots or martyrs or quite possibly both.
I can well imagine Mojo that your have been exactly the same way with your own kids.
Well, I have had to do a bit of the "momma bear who won't catch the fish anymore for the cub" with my Type 5 son but my daughter is a self-sufficient Type 9 like you so it really wasn't necessary.
So why can't we do it with our H's? Because this kind of manipulative behaviour in an adult is alien to us, and therefore we don't see it for what it is, we kind of believe there really must be something wrong for a grown man to be acting that way. When your H acts like he will starve to death if you don't leave him dinner in a crockpot he is ACTING LIKE A 3 YEAR OLD. Next time your H is stuck up that tree resist the urge to lift him down, maybe even give the tree a bit of a shake (he he he).
Brilliant insight and advice.
And they can be REALLY convincing. Your H's suicide threats are precisely in this modus operandi.
You know I did have the thought that it was kind of like a kid holding his breath or banging his head against the wall but, like you said, it's difficult to believe this version when you're dealing with an adult. The thing to remember, I'm thinking, is that even when you are dealing with a real child in that sort of situation, the child believes that his feelings are absolutely valid. Adults are just much more convincing. Also, we believe that we shouldn't have to do that sort of mothering for an adult.
That's his tree. Leave him to climb out of it on his own.
Yeah, but when you leave a stubborn adult in a tree, you might have to walk real far away before they believe that you aren't going to come back and help them.
p.s. Anytime you want to come and visit the gardens of England let me know we can go round them together and then come back to my place for afternoon tea (or gin whichever )
Sounds great, I'll put it on my schedule for right after my honeymoon with Cobra.
Its not a low point its an opportunity.
Mojo: yes they will. My kids give me a medal for it everyday, and I give myself a medal. You get a big red 'F' for being nice though. Im going to buy myself something pretty, and Im Not doing the dishes. Bye.
It's interesting to me that you found my H's remark to be mean. I just thought it was depressing. Also, if I don't do the dishes I'm just punishing myself because they'll just be twice as nasty in the morning. (There's a definite analogy here but I'm not going to go there.)
'Oh you want me to act like a man.... Um. (head scratch) uh ... but look, I did all that other stuff you wanted... '
Don't confuse supplication with honoring a contract. They are opposites. Supplication can be defined as not honoring a contract that you made with yourself. If I ask my H "Will you have sex with me on Friday?" and he say "Yes.". It's his problem with his manhood if he didn't want to say "Yes". If he doesn't show up on Friday night then it becomes my problem with his manhood.
I like that you told him "ees not my chob, man." And I like, especially, that you told him "I would appreciate it if you would do a better job taking care of yourself so that you could do a better job meeting my needs/wants as your wife." This is very schnarchy of you.
I thought it was very "feminine" of me. Though I guess it was my attempt to translate Scharch into "girltalk".
Fran is right. Don't help him out of that tree. Don't avoid the evening sales because you fear him starving, or fear his confrontation with you upon your return. He needs you in a lot of different ways, but I think the most important one is what Fran said in her post, "they really need someone who trusts them to climb out of the tree on their own."
True.
I now feel that I do not have to make deals with him. Deals are a form of control. If you do X I'll do Y. It's like bribing your kids to eat their spinach. What I need to do is leave gaps for him to fill. He can work out on his own that they need filling and I can have a firm belief in his ability to fill them.
I don't really agree with this. You are doing just what you told me not to do. You can't make a deal with a child but you should be able to make a contract with a man.
Mo:
Clipped this and moved from HPs thread over to here.
Mo:
Excellent. Have you been reading some sex manuals that I don't yet have in my library.-LOL.
I don't think so... LOL!!!
This brought to mind the time that my H told me that I was "blocking his manly desire". I wasn't telling him what to do but I was asking him to tell me what to do. I was actually saying "What do you want me to do now?" in a teasing voice. So maybe I was telling him to tell me? I'm really beginning to doubt my sexual communication skills.
I guess I could see that approach, most especially with your H, as a tad bit aggressive... and for him to respond to you... would require him to be way more vulnerable than I think he is willing to be.
One of the things I have been learning, which has been incredibly difficult for me... is this whole vulnerability stuff. I've been in sitches with my bf where I have
felt so humbled and humiliated (not from anything HE does to me, but just in giving up control of my own body to another... whew). And I go to sleep thinking, 'how in the heck am I ever going to be able to look him in the eye come tomorrow?' But then... tomorrow comes, and the emotional closeness I find there is so astounding to me that I get over myself. And I think... 'huh, I must be onto something here.' The more I do it, the more 'humbling' experiences I have, the less afraid I become of them.... for me, I always have to stay just outside my own comfort zone... when I don't... I start to feel pissy and resentful, and the sex isn't so great, at least emotionally.
Being secure sexually doesn't mean that one is secure with vulnerability. I don't see you being vulnerable with your H, but OTOH, I'm not so sure that he'd be comfortable with it, either. Maybe Blackfoot can comment on this.
And obviously, what makes me feel vulnerable, and what would make you feel vulnerable, are probably different things.
Corri
Ever pick a fight that you wanted to lose? If you havent then youll never understand a girls sex drive. You dont have to understand it.
Just dont lose.
It sure is tiresome though. Who wants to beat down the person they care about. And what person in their right mind went into a fight with the intention of not hurting the other one.
Every good conqueror thats who.
Whatever you wreck you have to fix. Thats expensive and time consuming.
Okay, I'm going to help you out. I think you have a good understanding of 1/2 of female sexuality but are bummed out because you don't see the whole picture. So I shall draw you a diagram based on me. Get out your paper and pencils, boys.
Draw 3 squares. Leave room for labels. The first square will diagram the female sexual animas. Label the top left corner "Cow", top right "Lioness", bottom right "Monkeygirl", bottom left "Bunny". Write "Women" above the square and "Girls" below the square because the cow and the lioness are adults and the monkey and the bunny are girls. Now on the second square label the top left "Hips and Breasts", label the top right "Muscles including vaginal muscles", label the bottom right "Clitoris and nipples", label the bottom left "Pretty eyes and soft skin". Next label the third square as follows: Top left "Generousity, care", top right "Strength, assertiveness, hunger", bottom right "Impulsivity, curiousity, appetite", bottom left "Vulnerability, trust". Getting the picture?
So if you don't want to be sex-starved, you can either ask the cow to care for you by being generous with her milk or you can come to an honorable contract with the lioness to divide the kill, or you can order the monkey to give you back the banana or better yet just grab it from her or you can lovingly but firmly speak to and hold the bunny until you earn her trust. Much better yet do all four at the same time and then you will have sex with the whole female.
If you consider some of what Schnarch discussed in his chapter on types of sexual encounters you could draw a 4th square and label if as follows. Top left: Will make love to you in a warm caring fashion. Top right: Will engage in a 50/50 f*ck fest or match that will knock your socks off. Will actually attempt to f*ck you if you attempt to cheat her in a contract. Bottom right: Will play "do" you,"do" me and tease endlessly until you spank her with your cock. Bottom left: Will let you make love to her in a warm caring fashion.
The tricky thing is that different women are more or less in touch with the different aspects of their sexuality and this also varies with any individual woman over the course of her lifetime or just in the course of a single monthly cycle. Life events and relationship issues will also change the relative availability of her different aspects. For instance, a woman with a weak cow spirit and a couple young children probably won't have enough milk left to offer to a man. A sexually immature woman might only have access to her bunny. A woman who was raped or abused will frequently clamp her vaginal muscles shut with her protective, angry lioness spirit and keep her girlish bunny and monkey under close guard. A woman who feels unattractive and/or old will lose touch with her bunny and her monkey. Etc, Etc.
Examples from the life of Mojo:
1) I had a lover when I was 21 who I broke up with under unhappy circumstances. When he came around a few weeks later looking for what was no longer his, my lioness was guarding my bunny and holding my monkey on a short leash (that naughty monkey has the unfortunate tendency of getting my bunny in into bad situations). But my lover was very wise in the ways of women (or at least Mojo) so what he did after he realized that my usually very accessible monkey was in a cage was he put his head on my breasts and started to nuzzle aggressively causing my lioness to give sway to my cow and thereby releasing my monkey.
2) My second lover was very "top" and "alpha" in behavior. After spanking my monkey, he would always pat my bunny. He is the guy who "told" me to buy a skirt with a slit up the leg because it would turn him on and then stood behind me and zipped me back into it afterwards. I fell madly in lust/love with him. I was young so my lioness was weak and an older girl stole him from me and I didn't fight back.
3) My 5th lover was good to my bunny and brought out my cow but not my lioness or my monkey. I loved him but the sex was always warm rather than hot. He was the guy who would put my mittens on me and ask me for permission to take my bra off.
BF, clearly your problem is that your X was very lovable and sexy because she was girlish and high-drive and therefore emanating a bunny/monkey spirit but she lacked maturity so she couldn't honor a contract or care for you with a generous spirit. This is why you don't respect women. This is why I told you to ask a woman to have sex with you after you meet her halfway across the field. If you have a sexual relationship with a woman who is more in touch with her cow and/or lioness, you will feel safer and more secure in your relationship. You don't have to do all the work just because you're the male.
Fran,
I also disagree with this:
I now feel that I do not have to make deals with him. Deals are a form of control. If you do X I'll do Y. It's like bribing your kids to eat their spinach. What I need to do is leave gaps for him to fill. He can work out on his own that they need filling and I can have a firm belief in his ability to fill them.
I think it is a little stretch to say that deals between adults are a form of control, especially if both people enter into it willingly. The deal is then a choice. Blackmail is a different issue, or a deal crafted between two people with different power sources, such as an adult and a child. That can be control.
But if one person is feeling controlled for having made a deal, then I think it is more a case of poorly enforcing personal boundaries. If you don’t like the deal, don’t do it and accept whatever consequences.
A deal can also be a builder of trust. Watching someone honor their end of the deal sets a pattern of positive reinforcement and can be a way of repairing a relationship. Perhaps you feel controlled because you place an obligation on yourself to honor the deal? But that is still a choice. I have a hard time seeing where the control comes in.
I guess that puts you in a hard spot. Your H too. How is he to build trust with you if you cannot trust yourself to accept his actions without feeling a sense of obligation (and possibly some resentment)?
Being secure sexually doesn't mean that one is secure with vulnerability. I don't see you being vulnerable with your H, but OTOH, I'm not so sure that he'd be comfortable with it, either. Maybe Blackfoot can comment on this.
Every time I bring out my bunny he makes her cry because he acts like a boy with a slingshot rather than a man with a strong warm chest against which I could snuggle. So you are right that I am not going to allow myself to be vulnerable with him again until he gains my trust by acting like a man. That is why I am not "in love" with him. I still "love" him with my cow spirit and my monkey still responds to his cranky "top" on occasion. I am no longer feeling angry, possessive or jealous so my lioness is resting peacefully but she will awaken if positively or negatively challenged by a man. The lioness no longer responds to my husband because I have lost respect for him because he has broken too many contracts. In summation, I have no desire to feel emotionally connected to a man who cannot or will not honor any contract to provide me with a reasonable level of security, care and sexual satisfaction.
And obviously, what makes me feel vulnerable, and what would make you feel vulnerable, are probably different things.
We are similar in that we both have guarded our bunnies but for different reasons. You are showing a lot of monkey spirit in your recent posts so I will assume that your boyfriend is pretty top. I was repressing my monkey spirit with my cow in order to keep my marriage together until my children are grown but my H has drained my cow dry with all his beta behavior so my monkey is feeling pretty free and out of control. You guys need to help me keep an eye on her. Feel free to smack her around but don't misaim and hit my poor bunny, she's pretty beat up and sad.
Mojo,
Did you read about the box exercise somewhere or did you think this all up yourself? And I thought I go around thinking about relationship issues too much! Wooaahh!
oh gosh I want to help the bunny.
Mo:
Wow. Had to really think about all the animals.
In summation, I have no desire to feel emotionally connected to a man who cannot or will not honor any contract to provide me with a reasonable level of security, care and sexual satisfaction.
I know what you mean by this, and it happened in my M. I have no words of wisdom to offer you, other than... one person can only take so much, give so much.
I don't believe in dying a slow death in an M.
Mediocre, luke-warm, not too bad, not too good, is the very definition and experience of hell, to me.
And so on that optimistic, uplifting post, I shall take myself off to bed.
You're in my thoughts.
Corri
Did you read about the box exercise somewhere or did you think this all up yourself? And I thought I go around thinking about relationship issues too much! Wooaahh! ;\)
Just me and my monkey. That's why I can't keep her in a cage for too long, she's trouble but she holds all my creativity because she's so curious.
oh gosh I want to help the bunny.
Thank you. Here's why I'm feeling very much like a sad bunny at the moment. I spent the afternoon with my sister who is having a hysterectomy on Monday due to cancer. She is so upset about the fact that she will never be able to have children that she is taking Valium. Her Valium wore off and we were just weeping together. I kept flashing on this image of the two of us playing together in front of our dollhouse when we were young and it made me so sad. I could really use some comfort but where can I go? It's just like when my Dad died and my H refused to give me a hug only now I don't even have the naive belief that I might get one when I really need it.
I guess I can sum up my feelings about your recent posts by saying - be "you".
I suppose becoming higher functioning means being better able to integrate the different aspects of one's personality. I am actually getting pretty good at comforting my own bunny with my cow rather than just protecting her with my lioness. I guess the question becomes if you do become fully integrated enough to not "need" to be in a relationship can you still passionately "want" to be in a relationship?
******************************************************
Monkeygirl is in ascendence this morning so I clipped a couple quotes from the man who is the best example of a "top" as opposed to an "Alpha" that I know. Reading his biography helps me to remember why I really don't want to be in a relationship with a man who is pure "top".
"I doubt if there are any rational people to whom the word 'fuck' would be particularly diabolical, revolting or totally forbidden."
He asked me what I mean by a humanist. I say: A humanist is someone who remembers the faces of the people he spanks.
[img]
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Diaries-Kenneth-Tynan/dp/images/0747558418[/img]
Get out your paper and pencils, boys.
Wait! Can I use a pen?
Seriously, MJ, I really like this. I'm with Cobra: we're so fortunate to be on a bulletin board with so many thoughtful and relationship-obsessed people.
I, too, feel sorry for your poor, bruised bunny.
(((Mojo)))
Hairdog, who, I kid you not, just bought a copy of the Tynan book based on your recommendation.
Seriously, MJ, I really like this. I'm with Cobra: we're so fortunate to be on a bulletin board with so many thoughtful and relationship-obsessed people.
I, too, feel sorry for your poor, bruised bunny.
You're welcome and thank you.
Hairdog, who, I kid you not, just bought a copy of the Tynan book based on your recommendation.
Cool. Monkeygirl picked up a copy of "A Round-Heeled Woman" yesterday. It's the true life adventures of a woman who was sex-deprived all her life and decided to do something about it when she was 66. She placed an ad in the New York Review of Books personal ads section. It said "Before I turn 67-next March- I would like to have a lot of sex with a man I like. If you want to talk first, Trollope works for me.". If everyone would like I can share the good bits with the BB as I read them like I used to do with my naughty HD girlfriends in H.S..
Mojo wrote:
I guess the question becomes if you do become fully integrated enough to not "need" to be in a relationship can you still passionately "want" to be in a relationship?
Yes. And it's better that way.
MJ
[quote=Lillieperl]Mojo wrote:
I guess the question becomes if you do become fully integrated enough to not "need" to be in a relationship can you still passionately "want" to be in a relationship?
I think yes with the understanding that there are a lot of ups and downs in life and sometimes you will still "need". Being fully integrated does not equate to being an emotional island.
Karen
Not "needing" also does not equate with being an emotional island.
Of course people will still need-- or be convinced that they do if they don't ask the question, "Do I NEED?"-- but most of what we think we need is really something we want. And, yes, there is a difference between the two-- in the effect ON US. From the outside they look the same.
Actually "wanting" is less problematic. "Need" is driven and has hooks in it. Also need leads to entitlement. When you "need," panic and resentment set in when you don't get whatever it is. When you want, then both of you are free to choose with no psyche-threatening consequences.
I just finished listening to the entire Byron Katie audiobook, "I Need Your Love, Is This True?" It's dynamite stuff. Could put this whole board out of business.
I suppose becoming higher functioning means being better able to integrate the different aspects of one's personality.
Some might say becoming higher functioning means realizing that different aspects of one's personality will never be all that integrated. Then you can learn navigate thru the world with a sense of comfort while different personality aspects wane and wax. Striving for ever increasing integration focuses on making yourself be a certain thing, rather than focusing on simply being.
Some might say becoming higher functioning means realizing that different aspects of one's personality will never be all that integrated. Then you can learn navigate thru the world with a sense of comfort while different personality aspects wane and wax. Striving for ever increasing integration focuses on making yourself be a certain thing, rather than focusing on simply being.
I would like to believe that this is true and it does make sense. Just live through the seasons of yourself recognizing that fall will pass into winter and spring will come again and then Monkeygirl will be feeling the heat once more.-LOL I guess that learning to take care of yourself would be best summed up with the expression "There is no such thing as bad weather if you dress properly for it.". I guess I'll go buy a new apron, a pair of leather boots, a pretty spring frock and a string bikini.
"There is no such thing as bad weather if you dress properly for it.". I love that one. "There is no bad weather, just bad clothes."
It's interesting to me that you found my H's remark to be mean. I just thought it was depressing. Your the one who it affected in a negative way. Your the one who needs to set boundaries and protect yourself.
Don't confuse supplication with honoring a contract. I dont, my point was its a lot easier to point at a concrete reason for our dissatisfaction with our mate, then it is to own our own feelings and set boundaries. My examples were typical male statements conveying what that looks like when its the female telling him to change concrete things that have nothing to do with the problem.
Thank you for your diagrams. That was brilliant.
BF, clearly your problem is that your X was very lovable and sexy because she was girlish and high-drive and therefore emanating a bunny/monkey spirit but she lacked maturity so she couldn't honor a contract or care for you with a generous spirit. This is why you don't respect women. This is why I told you to ask a woman to have sex with you after you meet her halfway across the field. If you have a sexual relationship with a woman who is more in touch with her cow and/or lioness, you will feel safer and more secure in your relationship. You don't have to do all the work just because you're the male. I can see why it appears that way here, but no. IRL I appeal to the lion and the monkey. I dont allow the cow, Its not her job to be my cow, and its not my responsibility to take care of her bunny. Its her's. I appeal to the lioness, becasue I neither ask nor tell. They 'know' what I want and they come to me, or not. I dont care. Once they come to me I appeal to the monkey. Sometimes I flip flop these two. Depends on how busy I am.
I gave x a chance to operate from the cow, and expected her to honor her lioness. She was too busy getting her bunny taken care of. When I wanted her back I appealed to the bunny and required the cow. We allready knew about the monkey, although it didnt hurt to hint at it.
Being forced to require the cow seems innately unfeminine. I didnt beleive in her lioness anymore. I checked inappropriately for it once and the bunny hopped away.
edited to say
HOWEVER, I did not honor the implicit agreement of Lions.
end of edit
I refuse to appeal to the bunny. It sets up a unhealthy dynamic with inappropriate and unreasonable implicit expectations. OM is very succesful because he understands how to wait for the bunny to come out. In reality he is an eagle. Sucks for the bunny. Fortunately for the eagle they propagate constantly.
You don't have to do all the work just because you're the male Your right. I thought that was what I was trying to help guys understand.
Im curious what is differant about your H now, then when you made your original contract with him.
From what you say it seems like he is stepping up to the plate in some real ways since three years ago.
Have you given and shown appreciation for that?
Take care of your bunny. Its your job.
I guess the question becomes if you do become fully integrated enough to not "need" to be in a relationship can you still passionately "want" to be in a relationship?R's are a need.
If you learn to cow your bunny, and still decide to leave this R you will go into another, or many others, be it as you will. I find it curious that your choices are to stay in a twice a week? SSM, or go live by yourself in a orchard surrounded cottage. That sounds more SS. If the problem is being tired of IYO taking care of someone else, then stop and take care of you.
When x wanted to get back together with me, during our first seperation, she said if I told her no she was going to join Greenpeace. yeah right. a city girl like her. lol. I didnt laugh at her though.
you know when we got D, she didnt join Greenpeace. She went to Houston for a week. The place she was angry at me for 'taking her too'. Originally it was a mutual decision. Thats how I remember it.
Not comparing, just remembering.
My question is do you need perspective control, or do you need your perspective controlled for you to remain in a R. I asked LFL once before, but she doesnt talk about her sitch so its hard to tell.
youll always be able to find a way to see that his top is less then yours. Its what women do.
If they can the lioness will walk away with a snarl, when the cow is worn out. If they cant, the monkey heads chattering and flinging fruit, from the trees, when the bunny gets hurt.
Its ok, it is what it is. No person can be all things to another.
just imagining for a minute,
I can picture being depressed if I had stepped up in a whole bunch of ways, and my W still wasnt happy with me. I would definitely wonder why she wanted to have sex with me. I would probably think, Its not because she likes me.
Some people need that to be intimate.
If you twist what he says into personalized hurtful remarks, instead of just hearing his thoughts, well...
thats just assuming the negative instead of listening.
kinda like my comment about physically attractive and sexually available post partum women.
It got twisted into all kinds of things. I said physically attractive. Not sexually attractive. They are differant. It is what it is, a deflated balloon is not as pretty as a unstretched one. The weight of my comment was on sexually available though.
6 weeks ???!!!! what???!!!!! NO WAY!!! THATS INSANE!!! How selfish of her.
Just kidding.
Bf,
Don't give up hope. Six weeks is doctor speak. I think I usually make it four or five tops. In between I really am willing and able to do some pretty good stuff if H is game. But....yes, there is less physical attraction there and that is why the reliance is on the mental/relational. Anywhoo - take note and see what you think when it is your turn for that particular life experience.
I always get in trouble in the pregnant and directly postpartum period because I am very earth mothery on one hand but I identify very little with the cow or the bunny as a sexual being. When I am required to be a "cow" by the demands of a stage of my life (babyhood) eventually I find my lioness really itching. That is what tends to bring out some pretty agressive sexuality although strictly speaking I am in nurture mode.
That is the cross my H has to bear. He doesn't "get" the bunny at all but he kinda looks for a cow/monkey crossover which I am most definately not very often.
Karen