OK, let's talk about MY sex life a little...

Hi All!

First I need to tell you that even if I don't reply, it doesn't mean I don't read your messages. I subscribe to responses via e-mail...I read them there, even though I don't always come back and respond. I just don't feel like I have any privacy at my computer and hate to have that big DIVORCEBUSTING screen open when I have the H and kids around. I'm pretty sure my 13 year old son has seen it at least once when I'm on the computer.

Anyway...thank you all so much for your responses, they helped me to get through the last week and a half. H and I were both off work between Christmas and New Years. As expected, everything went fine. He was on his best behavior, practically an angel.

Anyway...back to the issues at hand. First of all thankyouthankyouthankyou for the ego boosts...believe me I need them. Especially from the guys.

Really, I know you're right. I have a list of things to say to him if he EVER goes back to that place. A big one is "What kind of people do you think these girls are...chasing after you when you say they KNOW you are married?" I wouldn't TOUCH a guy who was dating someone else...what kind of person purposely tries to break up a marriage??? You're really moving up in the world with these "hot girls" who have nothing else going for them but a need to milk every last penny out of you.

Interestingly enough, I read that "He's Just Not into You" book last week. Mostly read it to "pre-screen" it for my 16 year old. But I knew it would do me some good too...for those of you who aren't familiar with it (it's getting lots of press now), it's more or less about how if a guy treats you like crap, don't overanalyze, make excuses...just dump him and get on with your life.

Of course this is about dating, not a 24 year relationship. But the book reminded me of how I used to treat guys...I didn't put up with any crap. And H chased me like crazy. It also got me thinking about my other thread in this forum and how everyone keeps saying I'm co-dependent, etc. After kind of stepping back for a week, I'm realizing that what really seems like co-dependent behavior is really what I was getting out of the "Divorce Busting Book", be his friend, try to analyze what he's going through, don't put too much pressure on him to make a decision while he's in the middle of his crisis".

Soo...where am I now? After a week of "my hubby, the saint" I'm feeling a little more objective. I can see now why I was willing to fight for him. I also hope he can see why I'm worth fighting for...it seems like it, anyway.

But, that's it...no more free ride. I will not let him get away with going to that place ONE MORE TIME!. For some reason, he doesn't seem to think he's cheating on me because he's not having sex. You and I know he really is. It's not like he's going once every couple of years for a friend's bachelor party.

The DB books have gotten me a long way...this time last year he was prepping to file for divorce...and he did file. I know I would be divorced right now if it wasn't for this board and those books. But it's ultimatum time. The DWI may have saved my marriage, he was spinning out of control in those two weeks. Frankly, there is a decent chance he'll get off easy on that one, he's gotten a lawyer (he's got that "lawyer insurance" through work), it's his first DWI ever at 46. Frankly, I'm hoping he gets a pretty stiff sentence. I can't believe I feel that way. If he gets off, gets his license back (all he's got now is a piece of paper that says his case is pending in court so he can drive...no official "license"), he'll be free to go back to bars and even if he doesn't, I don't know what it will take for me to trust him again. He went back to work today and I know I'll be stressed out once we hit 5:30 or so...wondering if he's coming home tonight. I know he will come home TONIGHT...but that feeling will be there again and I hate it.

So...I'm not so sure what the point of THIS particular long, rambling response is. I started off wanting to thank you for your support. I realize that I am more desirable than those 21 year olds...but, yeah, I'm still insecure. It's helped me immensely to have you all reassure me.

And I guess, rereading my original post, that the real problem isn't so much *what* we're doing in bed, as the lack of emotional reassurance I'm getting from him. This last week has been better. It's not like he's said he loves me...it's not like we're actually ML instead of F'ing...but there's a little more connection.

And NOPkins...I guess I know I should let him chase me, be a little less "easy". That's what I used to do...at some point though he quit chasing.

I also thought that maybe in some way by chasing after him, making him feel attractive and sexy, I may be in some way meeting the needs that are being met by his stripper buddies. I think I need to find some sort of balance between the two sides. Thoughts on that??

At any rate, I know that as of at least three weeks ago, he's had no contact with them. There was no sneaking out for phone calls, no obssessively hiding his cell phone, and the few times he left the house, he came back within his alloted time

Going back to work puts new pressures on both of us, we'll see where things go from here?

Quote:

> I am late getting back to you this time. So it is my turn to be sorry :-)

No need for apologies...glad to have you stopping in to my little thread here.

Well, my little V-day gift was that when I checked his most recent cell bill, there were no "suspicious" phone numbers, at all. He also got me a little v-day gift, but the nicest thing, honestly, was that I had a "Happy V-Day" e-mail when I got to work in the AM.

As for the affair thing, I'm just not sure there's really something going on. He probably has or had a crush on her, but I don't think anything's really happening. I even look for expensive lunch bills like he's "eating for two" but nothing...I don't think he really has contact out of work. And he may have come to his senses enough to realize that it's just a crush? Not sure. Guess I'll keep it to myself till I see some real proof.

Do you have a favorite site that discusses brain chemistry vs love? I am not sure I can get him to read anything, to be honest. He's a smart guy, not much of a reader though.

One of the big R problems we have is not spending any time alone together. I wish I could get him to go out for dinner or something. It's hard to break the "boring wife" mode when we never see each other out of the house. I just can't get him to do anything. I guess I should say I refuse to nag him into going out to dinner with me. I want him to *want* to do it, and I know if I pressure him into it, he'll just feel put upon.

We survived doing taxes last weekend, overall had a good, if boring weekend. Had "not great" sexual moment over positions...in the middle of sex, of course. I was guiding him into the "me on top" mode and he essentially refused. He figured I was getting "upset" about it and acquiessed, but it really made *me* question his need to control me...just one other way he's trying to keep me under his thumb. I have never really had this problem during sex before, just to be clear. I think control is the big issue, it might really be the core of our problems.

*II would like to lose a few pounds. I used to be very fit and I let it go somewhat when I was working nights 4 years ago. This is something I would do for me. However, I just can't get past the idea that no matter what I'm doing, wearing or not wearing, he's comparing me to the strippers. It's in my head a lot. And maybe part of the problem is that I *used to* look like that. I think I have mentioned in the past that he is a perfectionist. And though he's 5 years older, he has held up very well.

Again, I had the "stripper body" thing going on, so it's not so much the reality of the girls in other settings, I think, as a "41 year old body" issue. I agree with you as far as him blaming me for his attraction to see strippers. Not sure what it will take for him to see the truth.

Quote:

The only thing I can recommend is to continue what you are doing. Loving him from a position of strength, fixing the bad contributions you have made to the marriage, and keeping up a loving, but emotional distance.

Good advice, thought I'd just quote it so I can read it again.

Quote:

He needs to learn to acknowledge your strength instead of always trying to be 'the strong one'. Always being strong, is an impossible to live up to standard.

and if there are any men out there who can help with experiences on dealing with this issue, it would help. I got him to talk to me last night about his job, DWI problems, etc, but it really turned into..."I'm OK, do *you* feel better now that you dragged me in here?" He turned it into my issue, as always, but at least he did talk to me for awhile.

Anyway, dragging it back to his childhood, I know that he and his brothers (4 boys) weren't even allowed to cry as children. Frankly I suffer from the same issue, he is really the only one I have ever allowed to see my emotions. Maybe that's one of the things that's been so hard for me, the one person I can trust is just not there.

Yeah, I realize that puts even more pressure on him. He's been a real jerk the last year, but what triggered it probably is that he's under a lot of pressure...of course, aren't we all?

Gotta get back to work...thanks for listening

The other thing: I found out he charged $30000 to credit cards last year...some of which could be attributed to the fact that I wasn't working part of the year last year and he had the bulk of the bills to deal with...but of course that wasn't really the problem...

I think I deserve an Academy award, frankly...

Sally,
What are your plans with respect to the money?

Are you going to confront him with it?

I have to say that I had NO idea it was that kind of money. That's a lot of cabbage!

HP

MustangSally
Your H needs to pay off what he owes. Filing bankruptcy just lets him off the hook for HIS irresponsible behaviors. That only teaches him that he can screw up and get away with it.

OG Lou

I agree with you Lou, in theory, but what if he gets hit by a truck tomorrow and I stuck with two kids and a mortage and either paying for his previous lap dances or filing for bankruptcy myself?

I think it will be almost enough punishment for him, knowing his personality and his pride in his "perfect credit" to file.

I hesitate to bring up bankruptcy for precisely the reason you mention but I have to worry about how I'll help my daughter get through college, etc with that crazy debt hanging over our heads.

I don't know what the solution is, filing for BR feeds directly into his "not taking responsibility" problem and yet I can't imagine how we will ever, ever, ever, pay this off...we are far from rich. It boggles my mind that he has let this happen.

and now, re reading, for some reason, the $$$ are the least of my worries...I need to get the marriage stuff together.

He's got so many other problems (the DWI could end up costing his job, for example, if they find out) that frankly, he could really crack...he puts up a strong front but I'm afraid he's torn up inside...wish I could be the person that reaches him but apparently I'm not, anymore.

He's out of town for a couple of days and frankly I'm just enjoying the peace...he left this afternoon. I wish I could take off work and just hang around at home and get stuff done.

Hi, Sally.

So, what would you like to see happen in your marriage?

Where do you want it to go from here?

-NOPkins-

MustangSally asked
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I agree with you Lou, in theory, but what if he gets hit by a truck tomorrow and I stuck with two kids and a mortage and either paying for his previous lap dances or filing for bankruptcy myself?
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If something happens that you are stuck with the bills, Yes, then file BR.

I worked in a deliquent boys group home. The ones that had the most problems (never took responsability for their actions) were the ones that had someone bailing them out. In order for some people to mature, they have to go through the fire and sometimes they have to go through the fire several times.

If you say he at a breaking point, you do not have to act sarcastic toward your H. You can minimually support him. It is his debt. It was his choice to get the lap dances.

Did the credit card company hire the lap dancers? Did the credit card company benefit from the lap dances? No to both.

The credit card acted as an agent of your H. The credit card company pair your H debt, your H promiced to repay the credit card company for what amounts to a short term loan. So Why should the credit card company not collect its loan payments it made to your H?

I might be in a minority, but I see not paying for bills for non esentials fun things similar to not paying a gambeling debt. You lose and cant afford it, you pay anyway. Can't pay, you never should have played.

Believe it or not, not paying to me is simmilar to shop lifting non-life support items. With shop lifting you never intended to pay, with bankruptcy you decided not to pay after the goods were delivered. The main difference is when you decided not to pay.

Too many people stick someone else with the bills for their fun. Extreme medical bills, deaths, and similar tragic events are the exceptions, where bankruptcy are or might be justified.

I have customers that take expensive vacations, buy new cars and trucks, have nice buildings and then file bankruptcy, while I work 6 days a week drive 10 and 15 year old cars. I am out $300 while they had fun and never really worked that hard. Why should I pay for their fun?

I also have mom and pop customers where one gets sick and calls me to say they will be a little late paying for their printer repair. They eventually pay. If their situation is bad enough I re-write the bill and sell them the supplies at my cost.

MustangSally, this post is not about you. It is about your H. Sorry your H put your family in this situation.

OG Lou Standing on my own two feet. Learned a long time ago "Dont play if you cant pay" (end of soap box)

First of all NOPkins, I want to acknowledge your question and I need to think of a realistic answer. Being realistic is the tough part.

And OG_Lou, I don't know what to tell you. I agree with you 100%. I don't want to make excuses. I guess the closest I can come up with an "excuse" is that why do the idiot credit cards let someone with a high school education, working class job, have credit almost up to his total annual income? In fact, his available credit is probably more than he makes in a year, he just hasn't *quite* maxed out the cards. His minimum payments probably pretty much equal his take home pay.

Still, I think he is responsible for his own actions. I can't even imagine where his brain was at, spending that kind of money (or maybe we all know what he was thinking with).

And if he were to get hit by that hypothetical truck, I file for BR, get stuck with no credit available to me for how many years? I must admit, that's one of the appealing parts of this, he'll stop getting those "you've been approved" CC things in the mail...or at least he won't be getting cards with $12000 limits any more.

As far as your boys home...you're right, people who get bailed out never learn. We've never been bailed out in our lives, in fact H has been on his own pretty much since he was 16, self supporting, paying his own bills, rent, buying his own car.

Maybe even that ^^^ is a bit of the problem, he's trying to live out the teenage years he didn't really get to live? I'm not going to analyze it. I don't know. A huge lapse of sanity in an otherwise normal guy? I do think he is/was suffering from clinical depression and apparently this was his *high*.

Either way, I'm trying to find a way to handle this. He's 46 years old, he will never pay this off. It doesn't seem right to make my kids pay for this (yeah, I know, it's not right for the CC's to pay it either). I haven't done all the math yet, but I wonder how we'll afford college expenses, pull them out of private school now?(most of their tuition is paid by a grant)...My 16 year old daughter is already working so that she can get the "extras" a lot of kids would consider essentials.

I dunno. I don't want to pretend I think this is right or fair. It is very wrong. I strongly believe he deserves to pay those bills. I don't know what to do though. Maybe this is one way that he gets all the effects of his problems...he gets his credit screwed up, mine stays clear, he can't push other expenses off on me that he should be contributing to, but can't, because of his past "expenditures".

I'm just rambling...I honestly wish there was some way to take back the $$$ from the club owners, and even THAT isn't right. (let the girls have their money...)

Anyway, we work hard, drive old cars (I just got a "new" used car, because my old 15 year old car was literally falling apart). You would think we lived an extravagant lifestyle, considering the fact that we can afford to support strippers...but we live in a small house, in a not great neighborhood. I don't want to complain, just want to make sure you know that, otherwise, we are not blowing money left and right, we don't take vacations...

I guess, re reading this, it all sounds like excuses. I think I'm considering doing things I never thought I would do, just to get through all this and keep our lives somewhat intact. If he lived alone, I think he would deserve to lose his house and his car and whatever else it takes to pay that bill.

Sally,
What about gently confronting him? In a calm voice and a supportive demeanor, approach him and ask what his plans are for paying down this debt. I think avoiding the elephant in the room with you is not the wisest thing to do, considering that you are married and 50% of that debt is presumably yours. But I don't think that attacking him is going to work either. Maybe a calm and practical approach would help him face up to the mess he has made of his life.

What are you afraid will happen if you confront him?

Honey

MustangSally.
The best advice is to let H work out the debt and let him do most of the work. BTW I earn 22K a year and drive 10 & 15 year old cars and do not owe anyone for anything.

I admire you for not being in debt, I honestly thought that's where we were at the beginning of the year. I want to live my life that way from now on. At least I know I'm not running up CC bills.

Honey, I don't know how to explain it except to say that if I confront him about the money, then he wins. He is very passive aggressive. He is also aware of what a stupid thing he did, whether or not he will ever actually admit it to me.

I will probably, at some point, do exactly what you're saying. But I will most likely wait till he brings it up. The part about the sarcastic comment is really just what I'm trying to keep myself from doing...and I'm not 100% sure I can restrain myself if he starts up with me about money.

Frankly, I want him to pay every dollar of this debt, and I also want him to have some sort of real punishment for his DWI. He needs to learn that you can't live that kind of life without paying.

Another part of me sees him *really trying* to straighten up right now. I don't know if it will last. I'm hopeful. Adding a ton more pressure to the situation is only going to hurt it, I can tell he's fragile.

Still trying to think of goals for NOPkins...I know I want to stay the course on the "high road". I would really like to not let him see me break...every once in awhile he'll make a comment (as a joke) that hits me wrong. I know how he means it, but *I* am fragile now too, so sometimes stuff touches a nerve. I'd like to not tear up when this stuff happens, but at least sometimes when I react, I get a little sex out of it.

My real goal is to have him say to me someday "Thank You for fighting so hard for our marriage". Since I know a little bit about setting goals, I know that's not a real one, but I want to be there someday.

MustangSally, I was touched by some of the things in your post. Yes, sometimes a person just wants to shout "How could you be so dumb and spend $33,000 on other women." I understand the feelings.
I also wish your H could thank you for standing by him to save the M.

I am not the best person at setting and keeping goals so will just say the smaller the step the better they seem to work.

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I would really like to not let him see me break...
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It might do some good for your H to see you in pain because of the actions he took. That does not say you have to beat him over the head and point your finger at him saying what a bad boy he was. No, you can say you are worried about how all of this will work out. That way he knows what effects him also effects you.

Work on that goal list. Post a starter list. Others here will help you with it. Use the BB as a sounding board. The list does not have to be perfect.

OG Lou

GEL...what I'm trying to say is, throughout all this, he pushes me to start fights with him. Then he can say what a big meanie I am. If I confront him with this at the wrong time, I'll get the same result. The same thing with the DWI. It's a good thing I had a *long* wait from when he called me to pick him up, to when I actually saw him. I knew that the wrong way to handle this was to scream at him "what an idiot you are, look what you've done now!"

I would have had a hard time not doing that at first. Finally, about half an hour before they finally released him (5 hours later), I decided to just be concerned for his well being..."are you OK, did you get in an accident too, where's your car?". Threw him for a loop, and in a way, it wasn't really *acting*. And maybe it made him think of the possible results of his actions in a way that screaming "You could have killed yourself or someone else!" wouldn't have. I just knew he didn't need me preaching at him, he knew he screwed up, bigtime.

We talked quite a bit that day, and just about everything I said to him, he tried to turn it around into bitching him out, but I just wouldn't let him. One thing to remember is that *I KNEW* he was with girls from the strip club that night too, just at a "regular club". So I was pretty angry. By the end of all of it, he felt bad for putting me through it. I figure I'll let the legal system punish him.

It all sounds manipulative but it's not, so much, it's just finding a way to not let him manipulate me.

And the same thing about the CC debt. I would guess that close to 20K of it was spent at the club. He is waiting for me to confront him on it...I haven't decided what the best way to do it is, yet, so I'm holding off. The bills aren't going anywhere.

Whether he ever admits it to me, he's beating himself up inside over this. I guess my ideal would be that at some point he opens up to me about his worries. That may never happen. At some point we will discuss it, but I won't start the discussion till it's the ideal time for me.

Does that explain it? I think a lot of this comes from the DivorceBusting books, in a way.

Ok...so today I'm thinking that all the sex stuff and a lot of the "around the house" problems really deal with a "fear of intimacy" type issue. He really doesn't let me near him in any way.

On the financial front, as I expected, he's trying to push off a lot of the other bills on me. He won't ask me to pay his CC bills, but he's trying to get around it by trying to get money out of me in other ways. Confrontation will most likely occur reasonably soon.

I believe his court date is Monday...can't remember if he actually told me the date, but I know he said it was soon. I know it's Monday (maybe Tuesday) because I'm now such a little snoop.

I don't know if I'm paranoid, but I think there's a chance he went to the club on Friday. I have no proof whatsoever, except he took $200 out of his checking account at an ATM near there. There are like a million other reasons for him to be in that area. When I came home from work Friday (he was off that day) he was doing laundry. So I immediately jump to the conclusion that he's getting "that smell" off his clothes.

I keep telling myself I'm paranoid...he always does his own laundry and I keep telling him if he's going to do that, he should do it Fridays instead of waiting till the weekend when I'm doing laundry.

And he wasn't acting "weird", all the suspicious phone numbers are deleted from his phone. I have no real reason to suspect him. I just wonder if I'm going to always be like this now?

Anyway, back to the intimacy thing....I desperately need some sort of reassurance and I know I'm not going to get it...damn, I could just use a kiss from my husband instead of just sex. I need to be patient, things are going well otherwise and if I start getting crazy/needy I'll screw things up. Plus I'm NOT the crazy/needy type, normally I'm pretty secure and confident but right now, just typing this out, I'm in tears.

I hate that things are actually SO MUCH better but I can't be normal inside

MustangSally wrote
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I hate that things are actually SO MUCH better but I can't be normal inside
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BTDT and still feeling this way myself and I don't have 1/4th the problems you have. Sorry you don't feel more love from your H.

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I keep telling myself I'm paranoid
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Maybe being burnt before makes you wary. Could you switch from paranoid to cautious?

I see paranoid as H does A and B so that means H is about to do C. Cautious is, H does A and B. Thought process stops to what you see H doing. Don't infer what might happen next. Also don't ignore A and B if A and B are servious violations of your trust.

I can imagine a real hug and loving contact from your H would be very nice about now. Keep posting, you have cyber friends.

OG Lou

Sally wrote:
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I'm pretty secure and confident but right now, just typing this out, I'm in tears.
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I am sorry sweet lady.

I understand how the lack of intimacy feels. MrsNOP and I played the 'on guard, distance game' for a long time. It is a terrible place to be.

I know you want a simple kiss or show of affection. Do you ever just touch his back with your hand as you walk by? If you lead in a small way, maybe he will reciprocate.

Don't feel bad about snooping. You are protecting you and your children. That is perfectly acceptable behavior. The snooping is only an issue because your relationship is seriously strained by your husband.

In my marriage, I couldn't care less what MrsNOP looks at of mine. She is the same with me. Snooping in a marriage is a non-issue when there is nothing to hide. MrsNOP does make occasional entries in a journal(s). I know she wouldn't mind if I read them, but I leave her to her own thoughts and don't look at them. You can have privacy in a relationship, it is secrets that do the damage.

You will not always be suspicious, but he is going to eventually have to make a serious effort to restore trust to your marriage.

I will be glad to work with you and your relationship whenever you feel that you are strong enough to handle the extra load. In the mean time, continue what your are doing.

I am very proud of you, Sally. I wish your husband could see the side of you that we see here.

-NOPkins-

mustangsally-
My heart aches for you; seriously. In some ways I can identify with you and I wish the best for you.Chin up.

well...here's an update.

Essentially, not much going on. H is getting ready to start his baseball season. We got in one argument about money in which he tried to get me to pay for stuff he usually pays for and got po'd when I said no. Since he started yelling, I started yelling (cuz, you know, I'm the mature one)

...and brought up the stripper CC bills just like I knew I would...picked up a half full paper cup of water and threw it at him (only cuz he went outside) and he ended up laughing at me!

Pretty soon he was joking about my temper...he lost it first...heh. The funny thing was it all seemed so ridiculous, I was sorta laughing too.

Actually sort of anti climactic and it took about as long to happen as it did for you to read it. I'm not sure that it means anything at all except that he must know I know stuff and will we ever really talk about it? Who knows.

I'd be happy to have a reasonable in depth convo about this if he would, but he'd either avoid talking at all or get mad.

this may be as good as it gets, folks.

Anyway, back to the touching & stuff, I do actually touch him, but no real hugs or kissing at all. I guess I really meant touching him emotionally. However, we had sex the other day and it felt like, you know, real emotional closeness there for a little bit. Can't tell you what was different, exactly, and it could have been my imagination.

He still hasn't gone to court for his DWI. He has that "lawyer insurance" through work and from what I can tell (again, this hasn't been discussed, just from snooping) the lawyer has managed to change judges twice, didn't show up to court once (which was excused and there was no penalty to H) and prolonged this LONG after it would have been over. (He was arrested December 3rd). I would have to assume that whatever penalties he would have suffered would be over by now if the lawyer hadn't been involved, but I guess we'll never know what path was better, will we?

I think the next court date is April 11th, wonder if he'll mention it to me?

Anyway, I know he cares about me...really. I think some of what he's doing is keeping me at arms length because he doesn't want to make me think he's really committed to marriage long term? I don't know.

Oh yeah, here's an important little tidbit that came up the other day. First of all, we went out to dinner without the kids for the first time in I don't know how long, at least a year and before that it was probably a couple of years. Just a casual, after work "nothing in the fridge, what do we do?" kind of thing, and the kids were at friend's houses.

Anyway, I ramble (as usual). During the course of the conversation he mentioned what I consider the potential other woman, lets call her D. Anyway, at one point last year, while he was in the middle of our divorce proceedings, her name & number were programmed on his cell phone, and he made numerous calls to her.(yes snooping in his phone bill).

During the BIG strip club time, he didn't seem to call her anymore...

And the day after he got arrested he mentioned he worked with a 22 (I think it was 22) year old girl named "D"

and then, I found out he had text messaged her twice over the holidays (he was off work). Just "Merry Xmas, Beautiful" and "Happy New Year, Beautiful".

Now I thought things were going great and went a little nuts when I found out about this over a month later...confirmed my suspicions that indeed the "D" person was an issue.

But between those text messages and now there has been no real mention of her.

So, anyway, back to the dinner, we were talking about my work and this guy who makes personal calls constantly (and LOUDLY) and he brings up this "D" person who is now buying a house with her boyfriend and how she's always on the phone with him, or her realtor, or her mom...explaining to her mom how its a serious relationship and it's OK she's buying a house with this guy even though they're not married.

So, I even wonder if that time he almost quit his job during the summer (gave his notice, took two weeks of vacation and then went back to work after all) had something to do with "D".

Anyway, I am still convinced when he tells me he hasn't had sex with anyone and there was no "affair". I don't believe my views of what "cheating" consists of coincide with his, however.

But D must be out of the picture.

Which doesn't mean he won't become infatuated with someone else down the road. At least he claims to know the difference between infatuation and love.

And the whole reason I brought up the fact that he hasn't gone to court about the DWI thing is that the arrest was a total turning point for him. So I wonder what will happen after he goes to court? What if he is acquitted? Has he learned his lesson and will continue his good behavior?

How am I ever going to know the answers to any of this if I can't get him to talk to me? I realize he probably doesn't know the answers either but...

Anyway, I'm not quite the emotional wreck I was even a month ago when I last posted. I still could desperately use some sort of acknowledgement of our relationship. I am trying to accept his actions in place of words, and mostly it's working.

I still feel like he is using my weight as an excuse for his normal sexual slowing down. I think he believes he could love me more if I'd lose ten pounds...and kept the house cleaner

But, you know, I'm not perfect. I wish at some point he'd realize that being a perfectionist is not a personality strength, it's a weakness...of course his mother brags about his perfectionism.

I just gotta fix what I can fix and go on with my life, I guess? I still wish I could find a way to reach him.

So really, my life now...kind of boring. I sort of feel like I'm waiting for the other to shoe to drop, but things overall feel OK...no unusual charges on the CC's, no suspicious numbers on his phone bill.

Life is almost normal.

well...here I am, still.

Things again, pretty much the same at home.

I ache to hear some sort of confirmation from H about our relationship or the future. But as far as actions and daily life, things feel pretty normal.

BUT, just got a call from my son, he got home from school and H wasn't there (he's off on Fridays). Son wasn't concerned, just wondering what's for dinner.

But I get that clutching feeling in my heart and take a peek at his account...of course it's payday for him and there is a $250 cash withdrawal showing up.

Again, could be anything, but that's how his club visits always start.

I hate this...he could have gone to the grocery store for all I know. Will I ever relax?

I just feel like he's biding his time till something better comes along.

Hi, Sally.

I hope he hasn't gone back to his old ways.

How does he feel about marriage counseling?

At some point, soon, you two are going to have to discuss your plans and future together.

I don't know if I have recommended this particular book to you or not, "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson, but there is a lot of information in it that fits with your situation.

Good to hear from you, Sally!!

-NOPkins-

Hi...came back to post my latest discovery.

Got home from work and H was cheerful and I would almost say he was happy to see me. I pretty much poked around and tried to figure out if he had changed his clothes...looked in the washer and dryer, hamper. He always smells like perfume and cigarettes when he goes to the club.

Finally I caved and did something I really shouldn't have done...asked son if his dad changed clothes when he got home. He told me he went straight into the bathroom and took a shower when he got home.

So...while the bank card transaction is still showing "pending" I know he went there...now I need to decide whether to confront him or not. I won't say anything until the transaction shows up in his account, but I really think it's a formality at this point.

It's not helping me any that he was a real sweetheart tonight.

NOPkins, I just found that book on Amazon and I get a feeling I have a pretty good idea what it's about. To be perfectly honest I think I've been there, done that. It sounds like that book is essentially my way of life...until now.

I think the divorce busting books were a big turn around for me. I know when I started the first "stripper" thread everyone thought I was being weak and co-dependent, but I was pretty much forcing myself not to follow my instincts, which were to confront him and throw down an ultimatum. I still believe that with all the MLC stuff he was going though, the right approach was to NOT be the nagging wife. I needed to be the comfort zone, the safe place. Not to mention the fact that we were about a week away from a divorce decree...just a few months before the stripper thing hit.

Now, I'm not sure what to do. This could be a turning point. I could ignore it this once. Maybe he went there and decided it really wasn't the nirvana it used to be, and has lost interest. I know that's wishful thinking, but maybe it's best to pretend I don't know until I see it happen again. It's been 6 months now since his last "event".

I don't think he drank while he was there, either...figured I should mention that, and as I've said, I don't think alcohol was ever the real issue.

OR I could put my foot down right away. The problem I have when I confront him is that this man does NOT acknowledge that he's doing anything wrong. He tries to believe it's his money to spend and he deserves it because (insert list of horrible things the world has done to him here).

So, yeah, counseling would be great. But he has NEVER EVER considered it. When I bring it up, he seems to think I'm accusing him of being crazy or something. I would have thought he was more enlightened than that.

I would give anything to have a real conversation about our future. I just can't ever get him to open up. It doesn't help that we have very little time alone. He won't really go anywhere or do anything with me either, though we spend time together at home...eating dinner, watching movies & stuff. We discuss the kids issues, his job issues (he's really not interested in hearing about my job, much), a play by play of his baseball games and team politics (and I've never been invited to go to a game).

It's also very clear that he knows what's important to make me feel good. On the occasions when he's crossed a line and hurt my feelings, or whatever...you know, normal daily stuff, he knows exactly what to do to make it up to me...hugs and attention. But otherwise shuns cuddly type stuff.

Sex about once a week but just sex, no real affection, no hugs, no kisses..not ML. But we have a good rapport, joke and kid around alot, even during fights. We haven't had any big relationship discussions or fights.

I am trying hard to regain my self respect but I'm having a hard time too. Definately experiencing some early menopausal stuff...a little weight gain, some minor hot flashes. It just seems to have noticeably (to me) hit in the last month. Overall I feel great...but I am still constantly comparing myself to younger women...doesn't help that I work at a university LOL.

My physical appearance is important to me but I know how superficial he is about stuff like that so it's hitting me hard that he pretty much makes it clear that he's not finding me physically attractive. I've always just dressed for myself and not worried about what he would think, now I stand in front of the closet on the weekends trying to figure out what to wear to hang around the house that won't make me look fatter.

I know what I need is to work on myself and my self respect. It kills me that I've become this person that wants to ask him what I should wear and what should I do with my hair because I care so much about what he thinks of me. This is not me. I need to find myself again.

But overall, I'm not depressed, I'm holding up well and functioning OK. The situation hits me at times and I just sob..but still...I'm OK, you know?

And now it's almost 3:00 in the morning and I haven't slept and that will make tomorrow just that much harder to get through.

So, I guess, back to my immediate dilemma and I welcome any and all advice...confront him or wait? If I confront him, it will pretty much be: "If you're going to start going there again, you will not live here with us". And by definition, that statement will involve lawyers because I can't afford to stay here by myself, and he won't voluntarily give up enough $$$ to make up the difference.

And I'm not sure that approach would be effective anyway...what I really want is to get him to open up.

I guess I'm done, for now. Thanks for your quick reply NOPkins. You wouldn't believe how much it helps to have someone to "talk" to.

and I wish everyone here the best in their journey

well...

I guess I opted to wait and see what develops. I don't have the proof from the bank transactions, it was just a withdrawal from a cash machine that is nearish to the club. They must have a machine inside because sometimes his withdrawals showed that address...

So, still I think the bath proves it...in my mind. I also wonder if other times I've given seen withdrawals at that machine that he's gone there.

If it's true, he's not spending much money anymore. And I doubt he's drinking. Still I don't need to tell anyone here that this is cause for concern, to put it lightly.

Again, I should say he has never told me that he wouldn't go there. I can't call him on breaking a promise. But I have told him that if he continues to go there, we will not stay married. This was before the DWI.

So I on't know what to do...before all this started I probably could have lived with him going there occasionally. And he doesn't seem to be spending much money, or hanging out with the girls.

But looking at his cash withdrawals over the last month or so, yeah , there's a good chance he's gone just about every pay day.

I need to make decisions.

I could just ask him how often he's going, and see what reaction I get. I could wait and see if I can really bust him next time so he can't lie his way out of it. He hasn't really lied, just hidden. To me, there's no difference.

Over the weekend, before getting a good look at the bank account, I was thinking of making some not so cryptic remark about hiding and lying and how there's no real difference, or something like "just because I don't know you're doing something wrong, doesn't make it ok"

I guess I'm rambling but I don't know what to do. If other things are going OK...do I wait and see if this gets out of hand again, or let it slide, work on the marriage, and hope it works itself out (which is basicly what DBing advises to do with some of the MLC issues).

In a lot of ways, my marriage is better than it has been in years. Maybe I should just keep what I'm doing and see if it progresses, or even keeps happening. In fact, soon my kids will be home with him on Fridays, so he won't be able to sneak out during the day.

I just doubt this will just go away.

Sally,
Do you have any girlfriends who might like to visit a male strip joint and take you along? I would bet if you went to one with some friends and spent some coin, you would get asked pretty quick where you had gone.

OK, so I thought a little more.

What will likely happen if I confront him without real proof.

He will deny

OR

He will tell me it's none of my business.

It will put him on the defensive and may even cause him to go more.

I know it will cause us to go several steps backwards in the progress we've made.

But I do need to know if it's a regular thing. I doubt confronting him will tell me that though.

If I don't confront him, he will likely continue to go but things will be much smoother and give me time to work on other issues.

and I'll continue to lie to myself.

We still have huge money issues too.

If I don't confront him though, more than likely I will continue to get angrier and angrier and whether or not I say anything, THAT will hurt our progress.

Sally,

I just got around to reading your latest posts. I see you waffling back and forth over confronting him with your suspicions.

I have to tell you hon....you have got to stand up for yourself. Take a stand one way or the other...but take one. IMHO if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it's a duck....chances are he's frequenting the strip club. He truly seems to have an addiction to this place.

Whether or not he's drinking, he's still frequenting a place YOU have told him your feelings on. He's still continuing to behave in a disrespectful manner towards YOU.

Being that safe place for him is all well and good in many circumstances...but it's my belief that in this situation...by being that safe place (and I think I know where you're coming from on that) you are still enabling the behavior. By not confronting him you are also not saying...."I won't stand for you treating me so disrespectfully"...and you do deserve to be treated with respect.

He knows the financial position the two of you are in...yet he appears to be continuing to frequent this place....you can put an end to how much damage he does to you financially.

I guess for me...I don't see the benefit of not confronting him. If yo pretend everything is okie dokie....then he's gong to believe what he's doing is ok, or at least that he's getting away with it. What good will that do? You'll only end up more angry with him in the long run.

If you confront him and he gets angry WAAAAAA!!! He's getting angry because he knows he's wrong. Oh! & that "WAAAA" was him sounding like a baby, not coming down on you k

Stand up for yourself, demand the respect you deserve...you can do it!

GEL

GEL,

I don't want to give the impression that I'm afraid to stand up for myself. I'm not. And I'm not afraid of him.

I think, and again, your post may have clarified this for me...I want to make sure that I do the right thing to heal the relationship.

This time last year, literally, we were weeks away from a divorce. Now we're talking and actually have a relationship again.

I will admit that in a way, *I'm afraid* that confronting him will send us back to that place. It's a weakness I'll admit. But I hope that's a small part of it.

I've gotten as far as we have by applying the divorcebusting techniques. In a way, what I've done is totally against my first instinct, which is to confront and lay down the law.

It may be a matter of my deciding how long I'm going to give him to work his own problems out before I give up and divorce him. Since he doesn't seem willing to admit that he has a problem, he may never work them out. But do I throw away an (almost) 20 year marriage on 1 year of, okay I admit it, horrible behavior?

Also, the moment may come when I feel like "it's time to call him on this"

I could be just prolonging the inevitable...I don't know.

and, kind of off topic from this particular post, but I think a big part of the appeal of this place was the "big shot" treatment he must get due to the amount of money he spent there...

MustangSally. How about asking about the withdraws are a form of a progress report.

dear Mr Mustang. A year ago we were about to D because of money spent at strip clubs, and DWI. Now I feel like we have a chance to stay married. Can you tell me how you have been staying away from the strip joints and where you are in this process. I need your opinions and also need to see on paper what you have done since XX date.

I can imagine it is difficult to stay away fron those places. Are the times when you want to go the clubs again? Do you recognise triggering events that make you want to return to the club? Can you tell me what you do when those trigger events take place? Is there something I can do to help you think less about the clubs? I don't expect perfection, so please answer honestly. I need some facts so I can set goals for myself, and goals for the relationship.

OG Lou
PS I am not a big fan of "It's my money" once there are children involved. Personal expences are OK, strip clubs, drinking, and DUI's are not personal expences.

Your idea is an excellent one, but it assumes that he will admit he is commited to me. I've been trying to get him to do that now for months.

He filed for divorce, it had nothing to do with the stripclubs, that started later, in fact, it started after he dropped the divorce case.

I believe he loves me. I don't know if he realizes it. But most of his actions, and his reactions to me show it.

I am his scapegoat. Even if we divorced, I would still be the cause of all his problems. At least now, I've gotten him to the point where he maybe somewhat realizes that he blames me for everything. We kid around about it now, I even apologized about the bad weather, because, you know, it's all my fault.

He has never ever said that he wanted to stay married to me. He dropped the divorce proceedings for whatever reason...but he will not say he wants to stay married, he will not say he won't go to the strip clubs.

I think part of our issues is his family history. Everyone in his family: aunts, uncle's, parents, both set of grandparents, his brother, have been divorced. He had no idea what marriage was like, and I don't think he entered into it for life. In fact I think the only reason he's still around is that he really does love me. But he, subconsiously at least, EXPECTS divorce.

Anyway, I'm trying to figure out someway to make this a productive conversation, and I think your approach is a good one. I'm just not sure I can get even that much of a commitment from him now.

Sad but true.

He hasn't told me anything about his court dates, by the way. I may even start with that and see where it leads.

This really sucks because I was starting to relax a little, and now I'm so stressed again.

Hi, Sally.

quote:
------------
I need to make decisions.
------------

Yep.

------------
I just doubt this will just go away.
------------

Probably not.

Rather than a heated confrontation, why don't you sit down with him. Let him know what you would like from the marriage. Keep it simple and the list short. Then ask him what his intentions are regarding the strippers, and your marriage. Ask him to be specific. Don't yell or get angry. Be calm and collected.

If he dumps some non-specific wafflers special in your lap, then you decide what you are willing to do. If he is willing to work on the marriage, then you two can discuss what needs to happen.

If he waffles, thank him and end the conversation. From that point on, you start planning for you and your kids lives, financially and otherwise, without him. Lose the fear, and devise a plan.

If you haven't had a chance to read "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson, I suggest that you do asap. It may be time to kick his butt off the fence. There is a limit to the crap a person can put up with regardless of whose approach you use in addressing the issues. You can't live in fear of his character (or the lack of it) forever.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

well...

Last night we had a convo. I got the usual answers, I don't love you anymore, there's no reason to work on the marriage...

So, I pretty much give up. It's a sad situation, really. I wouldn't have stuck it out this long if I didn't honestly believe that he loves me, and has other issues that he needs to work out before he can see it. I still feel that way. It sounds patronizing, but I know that he really does love me, and just doesn't know it.

He asked me what I want from the marriage and I tell him all I want is to be part of his life, and to spend some time with him.

The strippers didn't even come up, they didn't need to. At this point I don't think he's been sucked into that world again,(yet) but the fact that he's going is a symptom of his lack of respect for me.

Funny thing, he kept asking me if I thought he was happy, and I kept telling him he needs to answer that. I think he has some idea that I need to be able to read his mind? I can't figure that one out. I started to tell him he seems to be feeling better, and then decided that somehow he's trying to trap me, and decided to not play guessing games with him. I think he believes that if I don't know how he's feeling, we must not be in tune...or something. We've been through that before.

We don't do anything together outside of the house. I don't get to be anything to him but his nagging wife.

If he refuses to work on his problems, I can't solve them. I think I was willing to give him time, but I don't know how much more of my life I can waste waiting.

I think GEL & OG Lou's messages just reminded me that there is no point in trying to get him to work on the marriage, when he refuses to admit he wants to try.

But we have still gone such a long way in a year...

Anyway NOPkins, I think you're right. I pretty much made the same decisions, got up in the middle of the night, read your message, and agreed with every word of it. I don't need the book though...seriously I can handle this part of it. I needed the DBing books because what they tell me to do is the exact opposite of the tough love approach that comes naturally to me. I don't know if I need to read any more books right now. I need to get on with my life, without him.

Sally,

I hate to hear the tone of your messages...they sound so defeated, yet I understand how that is.

You mentioned more than once that you truly believe he loves you...but he doesn't know it? I know what you're saying (been there done that myself) BUT, sitting the fence doesn't force him to straighten up.....and I know what some of the books say, but I believe he has an addiction to these clubs and addicts need to be treated differently.

I'm also going to point something else out...because I want you to see what you are saying here....."At this point I don't think he's been sucked into that world again,(yet) but the fact that he's going is a symptom of his lack of respect for me." You say he's not been sucked back in but he's going? Um hon....he's sucked back in if he's going. He wouldn't be sucked in if he stayed away. Do you see how skewed your thinking on that is? It's as if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt so badly...that you're going to search for a way to do so.

I know how that is, I've excused behaviors myself w/my ex. The sad fact of the matter is this....if he's going to the strip club (I don't care if he spends money there or not) he's sucked back in. It's only a matter of time before the money starts disappearing into that place again.

Now please don't think I'm trying to berate you or tear you down....what I'm truly trying to do is prop you up. Sometimes w/an addict (which I truly believe he is) kicking them out is the best thing you can do for them. Forcing him to rock bottom, making him really see what he's losing can be the best medicine at times.

My only advice if you should ask him to leave is that you don't close the door to your heart. I made that mistake myself. My ex was an alcoholic, my leaving him was the proverbial smack upside the head with a 2"x4" that he needed as a wake-up call. It was the last day he took a drink, but it took me 2 years to stop being angry/hurt. He tried several times within a year and a half or so to get back with me, but I was tooo angry. Finally when I realized I wasn't angry any longer and wanted to try...he had moved on (who could blame him?). So, if you ask him to leave don't close the door to your heart. Make it clear (since I know you love him still) that there is a way back home...but tell him what must be done in order to come back.

(((HUGS)))

GEL

Hi kids,

I'm back to vent & journal a little. I was feeling pretty confrontational yesterday, went back & read the MLC stuff in the DBing board, and now I'm waffling again, a little.

I am still going to confront him. I'm trying to find the right words and the right time. I'm getting there. I think if I had done it right away, I would have said all the wrong things and not gotten through. He still probably won't hear anything I say, but I'm trying to make the right approach.

I've told him a couple times since the DWI that I don't think he's an alcoholic. I think I am leaning towards telling him. "I don't think you're an alcoholic, but you are addicted to that club, and since you are going there behind my back now, I need to make some choices about my kids and myself"

Remember, he has said over and over he doesn't want to work on the marriage, but I can remind him of some really bad choices he's made since he started going there. And the fact that he wasn't home when my son got home from school last friday is where I'm starting. It's not such a big deal (he's 13), but it shows where his priorities are. I've got lots more, way worse stuff, that I've posted about here before, so I won't go into details.

He likes to try to twist what he's doing and compare it to stuff I do...I like to go to concerts with friends. It's hilarious that he tries to equate it, especially since I don't do it that often. But I don't do anything I'm ashamed to tell my kids about, and I'd like to see him tell the kids what he's spent all that money on.

I'm sort of brainstorming arguments he's likely to pull on me. I don't want to argue with him, I want to make him see what he's doing to himself. I'm going to try to take the emphasis off me. That will be very hard, because I'm the center of the universe

Anyway, since our talk Monday night I have NOT been doing the "acting as if" thing. He knows something is wrong but he doesn't realize what it is.

GEL, just so you know, when I said "he's not sucked in", I just mean he's not getting the phone calls, not dumping tons of money...it's not out of hand. But I know he can't handle it, so that's why I put "yet". I'm not kidding myself on that point. But GEL you're very good at making me think of things from a different angle, so I appreciate your thoughts, belive me, I know you're not attacking me. (probably want to slap me upside the head...but there IS a method to my madness, believe it or not)

He is working late tonight (no, really) but I will still be a nutcase till he gets home...sigh

I really would like to crawl in a hole for a few days and NOT deal with anything else...sort of stop time around me. That's not possible, but I need a break. I can pretty much get out of the house by myself, but I would really like to just stay home and wallow for awhile. I honestly deserve it, you know?

Sally,

I don't envy the position he's put you in...but your comment about him comparing what you do w/what he does and your response of "I don't do anything I'm ashamed to tell my kids about" made me want to add....."I wouldn't hesitate to take my kids with me when I go out." especially to concerts n'such.

Hang in there...you will get through this.

GEL

Sally,
My advice would be to not even attempt to try and get him to see what he's doing to himself--you know that's not going to work. If he's not listening to himself (his own conscience) he sure aint gonna listen to you.

Instead, I would focus on yourself and your own boundaries. What you will and will not tolerate. Then leave him alone and let him make his choices. You seem to be living in fear that he will leave. If he has spent 30K on foolish stuff, then I would say that he's already gone--he's just there in body.
Make a kind but firm boundary and speak to him in a calm and detached voice. Confrontation does not necessarily mean a screaming match; it just means tackling the big white elephant in the room with you.

I wish you luck..keep us all posted!

xo

Hi all...

I just reread some of your responses and while I"m not going to respond directly today, you've all made some good points and I need to formulate a plan.

I have an immediate dilemna. First, let me say, stuff has happened around here, but nothing has really changed...I could go into more detail, but real quick like...he's been driving without a license for approximately two months due to the DWI and he did not follow up on one of the "actions" he could have taken to get a restricted license to get back and forth to work.

Frankly, IMO he has used this as an excuse to NOT do stuff he didn't want to do, like run to the grocery store, but with stuff he does want to do, like go to his baseball games, he hasn't had any problems driving.

Well, 2 weeks ago, he got arrested for driving w/o a license, on the way to one of his games. So I get a call at 11 PM another sleepless night dealing with his problems, yada yada.

He was eligible to get his license renewed a week later, and now has his license reinstated. Almost funny how he drove all that time w/o a license, and got arrested right before the renewal.

The week after his arrest, before his license, he actually called into work 3 out of 5 days, to avoid getting pulled over (he got pulled over in a routine roadblock type thing this last time).

He "invited" me to go to his baseball game. He would have missed the game if I hadn't taken him, because he was not going to risk driving. And I did do it, but I dropped him off and picked him up and didn't stay at the game. It sounds "doormat"like, but it made my point...you know..or maybe you don't. But it was the right way to handle it. He wants me to be a b*****, he wants me to yell at him about this, and I refuse. He knows how I feel, I don't have to say it.

So anyway, I also confronted him about going to "the club" said if he was going to do that, he needs to move out. He denied it, and I do NOT have proof that he's going. but I feel strongly that he's gone maybe once a month for the last 3 months. He told me that this whole experience has taught him a lot, that he feels things happen for a reason...he said a lot of things, but he never said he wasn't going again.

Anyway, Sunday is his birthday. I am sick of "being there" for him now. Though all the problems and stuff we've been dealing with, he's always made sure our "holidays" still happened. But right now I could just not care less. I want to "accidentally on purpose" forget his birthday. What I want to do if it comes up, is tell him that if he wants to go out to dinner with the kids, I'll give him money and they can go without me. Otherwise, I don't want to do anything for him.

I am tired of being there when he needs me and being pushed aside when he doesn't.

Then again, my plan through all of this was to "act as if" everything was OK...not let him push me into being the bad guy. I want him to look back down the road, no matter what happens, and see me as being the "adult" in this relationship.

I don't know if I'm venting or just asking advice about the birthday thing....still, on the surface, things are fine around here. But the birthday thing is a big dilemma for me. I think if I do anything, I'll just resent it and be angry.

I dunno...I've got to take my kid to drum lessons, so I guess I'll spare you any further rants...ya'all have a good weekend.

Hi Sally,

The thing I thought of when you mentioned the birthday thing is...what about your kids? I guess I'm thinking that he might use that as an opportunity to point out to your kids how uncaring you are....you know take the opportunity to make you the bad guy.

What "I" might do is tell him after the fact...after you've gone to dinner that you waffled about it and really didn't want to do anything for his birthday but you did it anyway.

As far as the driving without his license goes and getting arrested....I know I don't need to say this to you, but his behavior ISN'T changing, and that's too bad.

Make you plan and follow-through with it, that may be the only way he pulls his head out of his butt!

GEL

GEL, you're right, his behavior isn't changing, much...but for some reason the driving without a license arrest isn't the big pointer to that, at least to me.

It's the fact that he doesn't take responsibility for the mess he's gotten himself into. The reason he didn't get the restricted license is because he didn't show up at a hearing, because he had trouble getting a certified letter. The post office delivered several notices when no one was home, with the option for him to sign to allow them to leave it in the mail box, which he did. When that happened two or three times, I told him he should just go pick it up. He refused, saying they're screwing up (they were, we have mail problems here all the time). BUT DUH! He knew this was important and he needed to take care of it...but, you know, it's not his fault.

So he missed his court date.

And the other thing was the self centered way he selected what he was willing to risk driving for.

Anyway...I wish he'd gotten pulled over that day when *I believe* he went to the club. That would have been perfect. Oh well...

Not to mention he insists he wasn't really drunk when he got arrested the first time...just checking his cell phone and hit a curb. He "only" blew a .1 and the legal limit is .08...blah blah blah. whatever.

As far as my kids, they're old enough to know the score...16 and 13. In fact I doubt they'll really want to go without me. I am not worried about them thinking I'm the bad guy in this. If they were younger, it would be a different story. I actually reminded my 16 yr old D last week that his birthday was coming. I just may wait to see if she says/does anything. I'm still playing by ear. I will decide as I go along. I bought him a gift a couple weeks ago, so I'm not totally unprepared if I decide I want to do something last minute.

I honestly think the best thing for us to do would be to separate for awhile. He has problems, that much he acknowledges. I asked him if he thought getting rid of me would solve them...and he thought about it and didn't say anything. The fact is he knows he's screwed up but doesn't seem willing to do anything about it.

He also acknowledges he has "strong feelings" for me but is not "IN love" with me.

Unfortunately, the only way we can really afford to split would be to make some pretty permanent financial decisions. Plus he thinks he deserves the house because he was the main bread winner for the past few years...he just doesn't get that it doesn't work that way, especially in a community property state. I don't think he realizes how much he has alienated his kids...he thinks I should just move out and leave him the house and kids. There is no logic to his thinking, and no end to his selfishness.

And the funny thing is he was on a business trip for a week and got lonely and depressed. Maybe he missed his strippers..LOL, but it's me he called to talk to.

Well, again, I need to get some stuff done...

Hi, Sally.

I am sure that I have posted this before, but I don't remember your answer.

Since you are talking separation, have you read "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson? The book deals mostly with affairs, but it equally applies to addictions and other aberrant behaviors in marriage. The principles contained therein specifically deal with separation as a catalyst for change in a broken marriage. It is one of the few written works that I think properly deal with separation.

I think the book is especially applicable to your situation.

I am glad that you are hanging in there. I believe that your husband will really appreciate your strength one day.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

Sally...

I don't think you should ignore or "forget" his birthday. Believe me, I am all too familiar with the dynamic of H doing something provocative, W reacting, and H distancing because of W's response ( while the behavior doesn't get fully addressed). Stay strong and set boundaries ( even if that means separating), but if your ultimate goal is to save the marriage, try not to let the hurt/anger/resentment spill over into the good parts of life ( like birthday celebrations). JMO.

IHJ

You know, IHJ I agree with you, and I've lived by that in the past. I'm really not ignoring it to make a point...or be mean. I just don't feel like I can muster up anything at all right now. And after being told repeatedly that he doesn't want me in his life (even though his actions say otherwise), maybe I do want him to see that I'm the only one in his whole life that does anything or even thinks of him.

And yes, I know that second statement contradicts the first.

My kids have already made other plans. I only saw H for a few minutes this morning before he left for his b-ball game. I was half asleep, so not mentioning at this point really isn't a major issue.

Every holiday we have or celebrate, he always makes it from the kids to me. He doesn't sign the cards, he doesn't put his name on the tags of the gifts. I know he buys them, I know he puts the thought into them and pays for them...but it's another way of his not acknowledging me.

Even if he were to call me on not doing anything for his b-day, it would be easy for me to say something like "you don't want me around, you don't want me to do anything for you, I just left it up to the kids this time'

Last year, the kids had so much going on the weekend of his b-day, (finals & stuff) they really couldn't go out to dinner. So I offered to take him out, and then we could go out with the kids next weekend. He refused to go with just me. Then he moped around because the kids really didn't want to do anything with him.

It sounds so childish on my part, but I'm giving him what he's been asking for. Maybe the reason I don't feel like doing anything is because I've had so much of what I've done thrown back in my face.

I'll probably cave anyway. I really don't have it in me to do this to him. It just almost seems better to not do anything than to do some half hearted celebration.

Sally... I see where you are at now. Sometimes it does take an eye-opening experience to jar our spouses back to reality. I know my own brand of "tough love" ( after reading PM) helped to waken up my H.

So take his birthday cake and you know what you should do...wait, wait...that's not the right advice, lol.

Hugs,

IHJ

Since I seem to have two issues going on here, I thought I'd address it in two different responses (it's my thread and I'll do what I want to).

Unfortunately FF, I think he would go through with a divorce...in a flash. This time last year, we were weeks away from a final decree. It's funny how I'm being so stubborn about this. I KNOW that he will not be happier if we divorce. It seems like he thinks it's the next stage in his life...everyone, grandparents, parents, cousins...everyone in his family divorced.

Of course he didn't go through with it. But only because I fought long and hard against the way he was going about it. He filed when I was unemployed, after transfering the joint bank account into his name only...the petition asked for him to get the kids, the house, everything. I was trying to deal with this with NO lawyer, no money...I was temping but couldn't get ahead enough to come up with a retainer. It was crazy and through the whole thing I was trying to get a real job and not have a nervous breakdown...he had scheduled court clinics to decide who would get the kids, the whole deal. Finally I told him he had put our whole lives in the hands of judges and lawyers and please STOP doing this...and after pleading and pleading with him he finally did about two weeks before our court date, days before the child custody clinics.

I keep saying this too...we get along fine, agree on a lot of the day to day life stuff. We have raised a couple of great kids.

I think a big part of his problem is he thinks he's missing out on some sort of big party boy lifestyle? I don't really get it. His brother never married, goes out all the time. I know he's miserable. Does H really want that life? I know his brother would change places with him in a minute...heck his brother has always been in love with me. I'm the person his brother came to when he had his big AIDS scare (yeah, we ALL want that life). I imagine if his bro didn't live in another state, I'd still be the person he came to with stuff.

Anyway, it really is all a huge big Mid Life Crisis flag...I have read up enough on THAT subject and I can tick off most of the symptoms, right down to the car he drives.

Should I let him throw away his whole life just because he's going through this big childish phase?

The reason I bring up the separation thing is that I think, in a way, it would be a good thing for him to see what his life would be like. What he wants is for me to move out, let him have the house...and I just disappear. I do believe in that scenario, he would eventually realize what he's missing out on.

However, I refuse to turn the house over to him. For obvious reasons...We can't afford two houses right now. I can't/won't squeeze the kids into an apartment with me. The kids would not want to stay at the house with him if I moved out (and I would never leave my kids anyway). And if we did eventually divorce, we all know that me moving out of the house would hurt my chances of getting it, or part of it, later.

So that leaves him moving out. He refuses to do so. But if I could get him to do that, just being away from it would make him miserable and give him one more thing to blame on me. He works on the yard constantly, it is beautiful. I would not be able to keep it in that condition, even if I were motivated to do so...again, one more way I would ruin his life if I were to stay here and he moved out...watching his beautiful yard fall apart.

Not to mention that he would be incredibly broke when he realized that he would have to pay rent plus pay child support. He honestly seems to think that he can just be single and not have to pay for the kids anymore or something. So when I legally made him fork over $$$, which I would probably have to do to get anything out of him...I'd be ruining his life.

So if we separated, he would be miserable, but all he would see is how **I'm making him miserable**. So it really is a lose/lose situation. I'd get to be the "evil ex taking all his money". He tries to hard to make me the bad guy...that would be one more way to make it happen.

And NOPkins, you have mentioned that book before. I'm sort of all "booked out". I read reviews of it, got the main gist of it...I don't think it's going to give me any answers I don't have. I really feel like I can't change him...he needs to work on himself. That's probably what the book pretty much says anyway. I reread the MLC stuff of the Divorce Busting books and really, I think that's what he needs.

What he really needs is to pull his head out and really see what he's doing...and what he's giving up. Sometimes I think I should give up trying to figure out what is really motivating him. Maybe he really is this one dimensional selfish person that he appears to be...heh

Anyway, after slamming him so hard I should say that I'm not a total idiot, this man has worked hard and provided a decent life for his family...he does put the kids before almost everything. He works hard, he deserves to go out and have fun sometimes. I don't want to deny him that. I have never thought he had a drinking problem, the DWI was just a symptom of all the other junk that he's going through. He can be a total sweetheart and he does take care of me. i would venture to guess, having read a lot of the threads in this board, that we have a better marriage, even better communication than many of the people in the SSM forum. Which is another reason why I can keep holding on considering all the other stuff he's putting me through.

Quote:

He knows he's got troubles, but as long as you're still there, he doesn't need to deal with them. It does sound like he needs a good dose of reality.

He needs it bigtime...and as long as I'm around, he likes to blame all his troubles on me. I'd love to give him a taste of what his life would be like without me...I need some sort of "ghost of christmas future" or something though so he can really see without all the other issues a separation would cause.

Sometimes I think I have the weirdest life ever...

GEL said:
---------------
You aren't "letting" him do this Sally, it's his choice. No matter how you fight against his choice....it's still his to make. And, the more you fight against it...the more appealing it may become to him.
---------------

Which is EXACTLY the reason I recommended Dobson's book.

Sally, that book explains why he needs to get what he thinks he wants.

Please reconsider reading the book.

-NOPkins-

OK...so, the Birthday Thing:

By about 4 PM, I could tell he was getting bummed out that no one remembered his b-day (no one, even his mom, had acknowledged his b-day, I apparently am the only one who remembered). I was making a fave dinner anyway, so I called my daughter at her friends and got her to buy a cake on the way home. Yes, both kids forgot his birthday, even though I reminded them a few days before.

I decided it was making ME feel bad, and I couldn't do it. I did tell him that I was sorry, I was trying to do what I thought he wanted, by stepping out of the picture and let the kids handle his b-day. My daughter didn't even bake the cake after she bought it, she went in her room and took a nap.

Anyway, it turned out not that bad...I guess. I hope he realized that it was finally me that pulled it all together, as usual.

I figure I'll probably offer to let the kids take him out to dinner this weekend, but I will not go. I'm just sick and tired. I wish he would move out. It's almost more torture having him hanging around the house being nice to me, knowing that he wants out. Plus he needs to learn. I just think if he moves out he'll learn the wrong lesson...and he won't leave, he wants out, but he wants ME OUT.

AND he finally had his court date for the DWI (arrest was Dec 1st). Guess what? The cop didn't show and the case was dismissed...can you believe it? Part of me is actually relieved that I won't have to worry about insurance being cancelled or him getting in trouble with work because he drives a company vehicle...but I was also hoping somehow he'd get a lesson. Let's hope all the stress he went through and the two nights in jail were enough.

And the conversations we've had about the arrest/and his stripper habit seem to miss the point of why I'm upset anyway...yes I am jealous about the girl thing and the money thing but he needs to see that the problem is that he can't stop going, not that it's upsetting me.

So I was sort of planning on a relaxing 3 day weekend...maybe hoping I could not think about all this drama and spend the weekend around the house being a family. And then I got stressed out thinking he'll probably sneak out to the club tonight, he'll have the perfect opportunity.

Why can't I just let it go? I think one of my strengths is my ability to not stress out about things I can't control. I'm doing OK at this, but the best way to describe myself is the the cliche "emotional rollercoaster" What happened to my stable personality?

I still think so much of this goes back to my physical appearance and that just makes me so angry. Why do men* seem to think it's OK to "use our bodies" to bear their children and then complain about how we look after, or just trade us in on a brand new model? I can't get over the idea that he's constantly comparing me to these hot young chicks and I will never stack up. I think he feels he has "strong feelings" for me but just because he doesn't get that "schwing" feeling everytime I walk by, he's not "in love" with me any more. And you know it can't have anything to do with his aging body either...I'm not talking appearance, but I'm sure he feels any sexual slowing down he's feeling is due to my age, not his.

It almost feels like he owes me companionship for the rest of my life and I know that sounds stupid, but yeesh couldn't he just TRY to work on our relationship? No, it's got to be perfect with no effort on his part. The fact that he has a voluptuous, attractive woman who is totally commited to him, as a person, who can forgive all (well most) of his faults, isn't good enough for him to even make a freakin' effort?

Anyway, again, I feel better just having written that rant out, there may be no logic to it...but like I said, emotional rollercoaster

*please don't take this comment personally, I know you all aren't like that, but I also know that you must realize that so many men are

Sally... A man who is healthy finds a way to make his W feel like she is #1, esp if the W is not withholding. Obviously he doesn't feel so great about himself...what he can't see is that he is taking his family down with him. The question is, how much does he have to lose in order to wake up and turn things around?

I know it's hard, but try not to personalize his actions. Protect yourself as best you can and make your life as fulfilling as possible without him. How sad that the kids are distancing themselves from him as well.

I do believe that changes can occur, even in the eleventh hr, and hope to hear a happy ending here. Just curious--you mentioned that everyone in his family is divorced; what thoughts does he have about it all? Sometimes people try like crazy not to repeat those same mistakes. Has he given any thought to counseling? is he religious/spiritual at all...any guidance there?

IHJ

Hi IHR

I have to keep reminding myself that it's his problem, not mine...I'm ok, he's not...you're right, he is not healthy, and he will sometimes admit that he "has problems" but usually finds away to make them into my fault.

He doesn't see at all why the kids are withdrawing from him. In a way, he tries very hard, but he hasn't seemed to figure out that badmouthing me behind my back, and not really spending any "quality" time with the kids affects things. He tries to get my son to play ball with him, even though that his his interest, not the son's...for example. It's not like he's never home.

As far as the family divorce thing, the last time we talked about this, only a week or so ago, he said "divorce isn't such a big deal, people do it all the time". When we were in the thick of divorce proceedings last year, and I tried to make him see how it would affect the kids, and reminded him what he used to say about his childhood, he said that his childhood was not bad...essentially denied what he's told me all his life.

You're right, it's nearly impossible not to personalize his actions. I know it's really not about me, at least not that much, but it is so painful to be rejected over and over...I don't know if the fact that overall, surfacewise, things are so good, makes it harder or easier.

There is no religion in his life, he never ever belonged to a church. He is not interested in counseling because he doesn't really believe he has a problem, and even if he admitted that much, I don't think he believes counseling will help him. And, as I've said, when asked about working on our marriage he says he doesn't want to.

Anyway, after I wrote that previous post, I left work, and hoping I was crazy, drove by the club, and his car was there. I don't know how I always know this is happening. The "perfect situation" I referred to is that he had a softball game tonight, tomorrow is payday, long weekend, just had a birthday, feels like partying. I didn't know what time the game was, but I just felt like he was going to leave work early to go to the club. And I was right, because he works till 6 PM and works in another town, which is a little over an hour away from our town. So at 5:30, he was at the club, which means he left work about an hour and a half early.

So, this sounds so "high school" but I wrote "liar" on his window in lipstick...smallish, but he wouldn't miss it.

I just wanted him to know I was there. He just called me about 10 minutes ago...didn't say anything about the lipstick or what was going on, just sort of checked in. And I didn't say anything, because I'm not ready to get into it till he gets home. I imagine he isn't positive it's me, it could be one of the girls at the club, and that's fine. So he is playing his game right now, I assume (on a team with a bunch of my relatives on it).

As far as 11th hour changes, I really want to believe that will happen. I feel pretty strongly though, that once I start making financial demands on him, it's over. Maybe after a few years, he'll see what he's lost, but any financial hardship will blind him to anything but the fact that I'm evil because I expect him to take responsibility for his actions.

I think what I will do tonight is tell him to get out of the house, he can stay with his brother, whatever, but he needs to leave, I've had it. There's a good chance he'll stay anyway until I can find some legal way to make him leave.

RE: MustangSally

Quote:

but I wrote "liar" on his window in lipstick

Good MustangSally and I am a guy. Your H needs to know you know he was at the club. Party boy has no entitlements.

OG Lou

Sally wrote:
-----------------
So, this sounds so "high school" but I wrote "liar" on his window in lipstick...smallish, but he wouldn't miss it.
-----------------

OUTSTANDING!!!!

Alright.

That wasn't high school, that was a simple statement of fact.

I am glad that he knows that you know.

quote:
------------------
As far as 11th hour changes, I really want to believe that will happen. I feel pretty strongly though, that once I start making financial demands on him, it's over. Maybe after a few years, he'll see what he's lost, but any financial hardship will blind him to anything but the fact that I'm evil because I expect him to take responsibility for his actions.
------------------

He does have financial responsibilities, and it is high time that he faced up to them. It is always easier to blame someone else for your problems, than to deal with them yourself.

When he discovers what the court thinks his financial obligations are, he may wake up pretty quick.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

Why, oh why can't Hollywood, or any other easily accessible place give gals the "men menopause too" lesson so that we can handle it?

Why now that they have commercials on TV for ED cures do the M think they are the only one and are too embarrassed to seek help?

Why is to trade a 40 on 2 20's a positive thing and the Cougar so new and unholy to men?

((hugs)) hang in there Sally!

Youre not worried about anger? Best of luck to you and your kids, and, H for you have a hard go ahead, but it sounds like you have the right plan and the strength.

thanks for your support all...

I don't think he's coming home tonight after his game. He may come home really late, but he would be home by now if he came "straight home"

I'm trying to decide if I should call him and remind him he has a 12 year old son who will be home alone tomorrow if he doesn't come home (school is out here, H is off on Fridays).

I don't want to turn this into a "nagging to come home thing" but he needs to face this responsibility...and I would like to talk to him before tomorrow, and both kids are gone tonight so it would be a good time.

I had a feeling this would happen

maybe he saw the windshield...is there another family member in the area that could cover for your 12yo?

Sally,
I hope everything turned out ok with your little boy being there alone today.

I wanted you to know that this is NOT about your body.

Your H likes the attention and admiration of the young ladies there. He is convincing himself that he deserves this, for whatever reason.
This is all about him.

Have you ever been to a club? The girls are not all that attractive, at least in my area. It has to be a VERY upscale place in order for them to be able to snare in any decent looking girls. The ones around here are skinny desperate looking creatures and it amazes me that people pay for that.

At any rate, please please do not make his idiotic choices about you. He is trying to fill a void in his soul by lapping up their attention.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are beautiful, inside and out. Your figure is just fine and I'm sure it has its battle scars from kids and life--just as mine does.

Stand proud, Sally. You did the right thing by letting him know you were there.

Have a good day,

HP

Sally,

Just out of curiosity....why didn't you just walk into the club and look him straight in the eye. You wouldn't have to make a scene, wouldn't have to say a word...just let him see you watching him...BUSTED! Then walk out...no words would have to be exchanged at that time.

I like the way you did handle it BTW, just curious what kept you from going in.

Also...I want to chime in with Honeypot....this isn't about YOU and your appearance. This is about an addiction he has and the attention he receives from those women at the club. And like she said...w/the exception of just a couple of places around here....the women aren't very attractive.

GEL

Let's see, if I can answer all the questions at once...I didn't go into the club because I was too upset, not capable of the cool stare, and also too rumpled and wrinkled from work to make a real statement, you know if I could roll in looking like a million bucks, that would be different. And I have been in a club before once, my friend was all bummed about her future husband being there (different place, many years ago) for a bachelor party, so I just dragged her in just to give the guy a scare. My H was there too, actually, but I didn't care about stuff like that, it's a whole different situation and it was 20 years ago.

And as far as the girls being hot...I think this place is fairly upscale, I know the girls make good money, and yeah, it's about the attention and the kind of money he was dropping at one point he must have gotten treated REAL well.

So anyway, first of all, thanks to everyone for all the supportl. H did come home right after I posted that last message, so no problems with son being home alone.

He comes in with a big smile on his face...and I didn't say a word until he brought it up. What he said was "I knew you would show up, I went there just to test you" (I should include a disclaimer at this point to let you know that I see through anything he says just like you do).

He goes on about how he knew I was following him, and the best way to make sure he does something is to tell him NOT to do it...and how I'm trying to control him.

Which pretty much gave me my moment. Which was, more or less
"OK, you win, you've gotten me to the point where I don't care. If you want to continue, then move out, you can go there all you want" and "you think this is a game, but if you knew how bad your behavior hurt me, you wouldn't do it" and "You may not care about me anymore, and you may think it's ok to continue to treat me this way, but no matter what you feel, in *my heart* you are still my husband and it hurts me too much to watch this self destructive cycle start over again"

He essentially asked me again what I wanted from him and I told him the same thing I always do, I want your companionship. I asked him what he wanted from me and he said "I want you to lose weight" I didn't say anything at all for quite awhile...I just waited. And then I said "is that all?" and he said "yes" I asked if he thought that would solve all our problems and he said "no"

and yeah, while that sounds like a horrible thing for him to say to me, I can respect the fact that at least he said it...I know he's been thinking it. I really didn't dwell on it much, and I will discuss that topic with him at another time.

So anyway, from that point we discussed some other minor relationship/kid stuff and then he sort of tried to make up with me, pretend like this wasn't a big deal, but I reiterated the "I can't live with you going to that place" comment, and here's the biggie, cuz its the first time it's ever happened:

HE SAID HE WOULDN'T GO ANYMORE

which was enough of a concession for me to give in and give it one more try. I still feel very weak and fragile. It's 2PM the next day and I am still feeling physically sorta shakey.

And I know you can look at what he said and pick it apart bit by bit. I don't think he's really facing what the big issues are with him. He's blaming any of his sexual problems on my big arse

But at least I feel like maybe he has realized that he still wants me around.

And one thing I need to really think about is: how much of this stuff he's pulling is just games that he's playing to manipulate me. Because he's quite capable of that.

So, for now, I'm just hoping to have a semi relaxing long weekend. I don't know if he realizes how close I am to giving it up. I think maybe he thinks I am just saying that I don't want him anymore to manipulate him. I don't say things I don't mean.

Wish me luck...