Book Club 2 - DivorceBusting.com

I thought I'd start a new thread for new questions about the book.
Michele

Hi Michele,

I finished Divorce Remedy yesterday. It was full of great information, especially the part about MLC. We've been separated for 6 months now, in the same house, separate bedrooms, his choosing. I've tried everything...180's, LRT, even got him to go to Retrouvaille, but he didn't like it and wanted to leave early. 11years married, 2 kids, and he filed for divorce the same week he announced he wanted out.

We've ridden it out over 6 months (he refuses counseling, we went once before). I'm taking care of myself in a ton of great ways...spirituality, work, children. Now it's getting down to the wire...he wants to put the house up for sale in 2 weeks and the divorce will be final when it sells. We've got good agreements on the children and the money... I refuse to fight.

I'm still trying to divorce bust. My recent 180 is to not challenge him about the divorce at all. I loved the story in your book about Carol....it felt SO MUCH like our situation except that the divorce wasn't already started. Most of the same complaints.

Now today, ironically, I've found evidence there is another woman. I'm pretty sure it's new, the last month or so. He's been laying out his work folder on the counter a lot, as if he's hinting at me to go through it. I kept ignoring it. Finally today he left on an all day hike with his hiking group (supposedly) and it got the best of me, checked his drawer and his work bag...found a name and a phone number in a city 70 miles away. Because we're almost divorced he'll say this is OK.....I still feel hurt and enraged. I thought about calling the number and realized no good could be gained. I think I'm going to completely not mention it. It does make me wonder about the conference he's supposedly going to in that city later this week.

So that's more about me than the book really...I love all your encouragement. I wish so much I could get him to read it..he won't.

Do you have any thoughts for me? It's frustrating...I feel like I'm just getting it on DivorceBusting and here it is almost about to happen.

Thanks Michele,

Beth2

Michelle, just to let you I read your rresponse to me dated 9/22, and have posted update on the Lets Get Started section.

Hello Michele-

I have now read The Divorce Remedy twice since i bought it last thursday and continue to spot read and read the LR technique daily. The whole book gives me a great deal of hope that there IS HOPE for us.
Thank you for the inspiration!!!!

Dear Michele,

I've read both DB and DR and found them both insightful andveery helpful.

Brief description of my situation: Married 10 months, separated 4. H and I are in different states, he's at school, i'm at my parents.

H has a history of depression but has not gotten help. He also has low self-esteem and blames himself for all our problems. He won't allow me to take any credit for the way things are, and he feels guilty for hurting me and "ruining" my life.

When we first separated, he was intent on divorce. After not talking to each other for a few months, we are opening communication again. He is now not sure divorce is the answer. However, he is still unsure and doesn't want to get back together for the wrong reasons. His bro & s.i.l. are having their first babies (twins). That has gotten him thinking about us and is afraid that wanting a family is a wrong reason to want to be together.

I heard the same lines most WA's use. He is convinced that he is a bad person and doesn't know why I see any good in him. He is afraid of us getting back together and him hurting me all over again. I'm assuming he is also afraid of not feeling love for me right now.

I love my H and want more than anything to save my marriage. I'm just afraid of doing the wrong thing right now and pushing him further away. I believe he would benefit from therapy. He has been on medication 1x for ~1 month. Stopped after separting since there wasn't any need anymore.

What should I do at this point? I feel like i'm at a critical point and don't want to blow anything. Any suggestions?

Beth2,
Thanks so much for your kind feedback about the book. I'm glad you're finding it comforting.

In your long list of things you've tried, have you tried really getting angry at him? You sound like a soft-spoken, gentle person. I just wondered whether he has seen your rage yet? (Stil always looking for something really different!)
Michele

Idaho,
Thanks for your feedback! I'm glad the book is helping. Keep posting here too!

Take care,
Michele

Gossamer,
Make sure you don't make any of the mistakes I outline in the chapter on depression.

Are you contacting him or is he contacting you? What does he say he wants to do at this point?

When someone blames him or herself completely, it creates a problem because then there's nothing YOU can do to make things better. It would be helpful if he could identify what about your relationship he found challenging. Then you would know what to change or work on. Maybe you already have an idea of what he'd say about that.
Michele

Hi Michelle, thanks for responding.

Unfortunately, (pre-DB), I made many of those mistakes you mentioned. I am now trying not to pressure him or constantly talk about his depression.

As for contact, this past week alone we have talked 3x. 1x for returning my call and the other 2 his own initiation. Each time, we talk for awhile. We have talked about us only after he initiates it.

He is not sure what he wants to do about OR at this point. From listening to him, it mostly sounds like fear holding him back. Fear of not being able to handle being married, fear of hurting me again. He has a history of second guessing all his decisions and focuses on the negative.

I'll try and see if there is something about OR that is holding him back. I'm not sure what he'll say, but I have a feeling it will be that it is all him.

Thanks,
Kathy

Hi Michele,

Thanks for your reply. At first I didn't think that was the answer, because my 180 from the marriage is actually to manage my rage. I would vascillate from, yes, very sweet and gentle to enraged (not violent) when I couldn't seem to get through to him.

I finally realized the last few days that I can be assertive with him also. It's funny, I have no trouble doing that anywhere else (especially work) but for some reason wouldn't let myself find the middle ground with him.

I'm committed to being assertive and expressing my hurt and anger appropriately. This is regardless of what happens about the divorce. Either way I have to stand up to him appropriately. I think I finally get it about being true to myself first.

Thanks for the actually very helpful feedback. Solution-focused helps again

Beth2.

Hi Michele, I haven't finished your book yet and don't have questions right now but comments instead. I would like to point out two things you said that hit home. To quote what you said in your book on page 59:

"Does marriage have its equilivalent to the "Terrible Twos...?"Because people are unfamiliar with the emotional terrain, the normal hills and valleys of marriage, these predictable transitional periods are often misunderstood, causing overreactions."

I think that is what happened to me 9 months ago when the 'bomb' dropped. I overreacted. I think reading the above quote can help those who are going through marital problems, calm down a bit.

About chapter 5, - Cheeseless tunnels, you mention how people go down the same wrong tunnel time and time again. They don't realize they are doing more of the same. They think their new way is a different tunnel, when it really isn't. I just find it interesting that people can't seem to realize they are doing this. I know I've done this - and like you said in your book, everyone does.
Kathy

[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Wintergirl ]

Beth2,
I'm really glad that my feedback was useful. I know that you will feel more centered when you handle things the new Beth way. Keep up the good work. And thanks again for your thoughts.

Wintergirl,
I'm glad you are finding passages that help you think about things in a new way. You know, it's funny. A friend of mine who is divorced told me that she wished she hadn't reacted the way she did when she found out that her husband had had an affair. She said that she believes if she had been able to calm herself down and not go ballistic, they probably would still be together today. She thinks they could have worked things out. But because she went so nuts, things deteriorated incredibly. I understand what you're saying here. It's great that you see this now.

Continue sharing your thoughts, okay?
Michele

Hi I've read DR a couple times now and wonder where or if to start.

WAW has been having an open PA for 3.5 years. We built an addition so
that each of us would have our own space. Kind of like moving out. She
sees us as separated, and in a monogamous relationship with OM. We
three do a fair amount together. She is also my business partner. I'd
like to have a primary sexualloving relationship. I currently have a low
intensity LDR with a woman in an open R, actually a poly W.

I'd characterize our R as friendly, occasionally our conflict over
the lack of a sexual gets discussed. I recently brought up getting
divorced as a way for me to move on with a new R, not an ultimatum. She was very pragmatic in her response.
An act that seems really hard for me to consider, a two choice dilemma.

I'd probably try LRT except that I probably wouldn't be able to pull
it off, due to my lack of other social support.

Hi Michelle -
I'm new to this thread. Have been reading DR for about 3 weeks now, trying to implement some of your techniques and now feel it would be helpful to join the forums.

Here's my situation: Husband of 18 years announced in August that our relationship is over, he's leaving. Moved out shortly afterwards. This announcement comes after a year of major life changes for both of us: H turned 40, his mother passed away in the spring, major career changes for both of us. H's behavior during the past year has been strange, and I believe he is the middle of a major midlife crisis. On top of all of this, there is some kind of relationship (perhaps in his own mind, according to friends and therapists) with his new business partner - a younger woman who is married (but in a troubled marriage as well) and has a child. He tells me he wants a divorce (hasn't filed yet, and he is a divorce attorney) and plans to seek a new relationship with the business partner, but he still wants to be "friends" with me. He refuses to go to couples counseling. This is surprising, as he advises all of his clients to try counseling before going through a divorce.

Before reading DR, I was making all the usual mistakes - pursuing, begging him to come home, pushing for counseling. All of this just made him angrier. Once I picked up the book, I immediately started to use the LRT. I stopped calling him and just sort of disappeared. Before long, he began calling, leaving insignificant messages. I won't answer the phone and will not return calls. If there is something important to deal with, I'll email or leave a voice mail on his office phone. At first, I think he was confused by this. He has told a friend that it hurts him that I won't take his calls. There is now some indication that my distancing myself from him is beginning to anger or provoke him.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. He claims that he wants out of our relationship because he feels I have "controlled and manipulated" him all these years. Which, by the way, is what he is saying about friends and colleagues right now, as well. He has never voiced this complaint to me until now. I guess I was trying a 180 by completely backing away and letting him go - giving him the freedom that he is demanding. However, it seems he may now be interpreting this as just another way to manipulate him.

I'm also not sure what to do about the "just friends" arrangement. I also pulled away so that he would experience not having me in his life, as I have no desire to take on the role of "just a buddy" now, or once he divorces me. But according to DR and posts on this site, perhaps continuing to be his best friend keeps a door open. This one is very hard for me, for two reasons - H is very much affected by my presence (even if it is just dropping off mail at this office) and will react to his feelings by lashing out at me; and second, it hurts me to have him treat me as his best buddy while he talks about the new life he is planning.

I think my goal right now is to just stop the momentum that is leading to the divorce. And I believe H's perception of me as being controlling and manipulative is what fuels his anger. I would give anything to get into counseling with him, but he feels that this is just another way to control him, as well.

Any suggestions?

Michele, in reference to yazzie girl's reply, I wonder if LRT's and 180s can be taken too far. I'm curious about your advice to her.

For my situation, I'm no longer overreacting (or trying not to). I'm at the part in the book to "do what works even if it seems unfair." On one level, the marriage worked. We both avoided conflict, which made life appear okay on the surface. I know H and I can probably have that type of R again, but I'd like to have a more intimate R. So...my goal is to do what worked (be giving and undemanding) and do it without regretting it, but (and this is a big but), try to do it with balance in mind. I'll go back and do what I think worked but won't attach any expectations to it. I will rely on myself for my own happiness. I can be nice without being a doormat.

Hi Wintergirl:
I am wondering the same thing - can 180s and LTR be taken too far? When starting the DBing, especially with a SO who is in the throes of MLC and the "rules" change by the minute, how can you tell what is working, what isn't, and what to try next? I've been reading many of the posts on the MLC threads, and it seems as though the best thing to do in my situation is to simply go dark until SO can figure out what he wants.

This website, Michelle, and all of the wonderful souls who post their experiences and wisdom here, have helped me put some things into perspective, however it is very early in the game and I'm still strugglig with many issues. As with you, Wintergirl, I want very much to find that place where I can return to being the supportive, nuturing creature that I have always been, without becoming a doormat. At least in my case, I suspect that it will take time, patience, and a great deal of skill to work my way back to that place from where I am now, without giving up the safe place I have spent the past two months trying to find. It could very well be that I have over-reacted, but then again, my SO has been running me around in circles for the past year, making demands that seem to change as I try to meet them, and then using my "failures" to meet his ever changing needs as reasons why he needs to leave. At some point, the dynamic needs to stop.

The whole issue of conflict avoidance is interesting, as well. As I work on DBing, I am constantly wondering if what I am doing is simply creating conflict. But perhaps this is part of the DB process? Not sure if this is your situation, Wintergirl, I know it is with my relationship, but perhaps in a relationship where problem-solving skills have been absent, and the method of dealing with problems has been to either avoid them or engage in unresolved conflict (doing more of the same, going down cheeseless tunnels), our personal growth involves developing the skills to work towards those "solution-oriented" goals.

Michelle - your wisdom is much appreciated!

Hi Michele. You answered a question for me on the last thread and I never go around to thanking you so this is a belated but heartfelt thank-you. [I asked if my 180 could be love/attention since my being cool, angry, distant had createe some of the problems. You said you weren't sure but try & see...it didn't work (pursuing behavior) but I feel better knowing I tried.] I'm re-reading DR and I'm very thankful to have it. I was also able to recommend it to a friend who was in the begging/pleading mode.
________________________________________
I have one more question. H has been gone 3 weeks; I've seen him 2x--I initiated but did not engage in ANY pursuit behavior during our time together. I've now gone to the dark, LRT phase (as a result of H not contacting me when he said he would). H HATES confrontation more than anyone I know. Can LRT still be effective with someone who avoids all confrontation??? (I'm afraid he'll just be relieved & wait me out.) Thanks again, Aly

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Aly2001 ]

quote:
Originally posted by yazzie girl:
It could very well be that I have over-reacted, but then again, my SO has been running me around in circles for the past year, making demands that seem to change as I try to meet them, and then using my "failures" to meet his ever changing needs as reasons why he needs to leave. At some point, the dynamic needs to stop.
As I work on DBing, I am constantly wondering if what I am doing is simply creating conflict. ... our personal growth involves developing the skills to work towards those "solution-oriented" goals.

yazzie, I agree that growth comes from developing DBing skills. I know my heart is in the right place, so if I make a mistake, I won't beat myself up over it. I'm learning all I can with the goal of self improvment in mind, and if I make a mistake, at least it's made toward the goal of a new me and a new and improved marriage.

You say your SO has you running around in circles - well, I think the key is to stop feeding off whatever negative he throws your way - what he says,does etc. Also, we have to give ourselves a pat on the back for trying to have a new and improved marriage, despite inevitable mistakes made along the way. And like it says in Michele's book, we have to think before we speak. That's another goal of mine. I've learned that once I do this, and don't react, it prevents me from getting looped into some negative cycle. It almost seems like a game of chess at times, and we while we can't always know what our SO thinks and will say, we do have control over how we react and act. I know it seems like for some people they feel like they are the only one working on the marriage but feeling that way really accomplishes nothing. (I'm not saying you are like this at all, but rather I was like this but finally wised up!) Best of luck to you!

Hey Wintergirl -
You know, the best thing about the forums is the opportunity to learn from those who are further along in their journeys. As I have mentioned, I have just started on mine. Your words of wisdom and encouragement are much appreciated.

I still find myself self-flagellating from time to time, even though I feel my heart is also in the right place. Regardless of what my SO chooses to do, I am working on personal growth, and as such, seek to improve my contributions to our marriage. After nearly 20 years of my identity being merged with that of my SO's, it is amazing to me how much of my self I have lost. In a way, this process is so liberating and fulfilling, but is also quite painful and frightening. I agree with you that feeling the efforts are only one-sided accomplishes nothing. In my case, I am also trying to understand what my husband is going through right now. Rather than judging him, I hope to reach a point where I can nuture and support, and that he will allow me back into his life to offer him this. At this point in our individual journeys, though, he sees our marriage and relationship as non-existant. I'm working on trying to remind myself that we are still married for the time being, and this is a place to start.

Your analogy of the chess game is well taken. One lesson I did learn very early on was to stop trying to defend myself (one of the ways I was responding to the negativity). The LRT is allowing me to get centered emotionally and spiritually, as well as (I hope) allowing my SO to focus on something else besides how angry he is with me.

I have found Autumn's posts on the "Hopefulness" threads absolutely wonderful and inspiring. It took me some time to realize that my SO's unhappiness and anger with his life is not necessarily a result of me or our relationship. There was a lot of self-blame and guilt about our separation in the beginning. Now, I am working on shifting my center of wellbeing back to myself, rather than allowing it to originate from my SO and our relationship. I think this will go a long way towards helping me avoid reacting to the negativity, as I will be able to regain some of my own personal and spiritual power.

Still hoping to learn from those further down the road.....

Be well -

Hi yazzie, you seem to be on the right track and that's great.

I think you are further on your journey than me! I enjoy Autumns post also...it is very positive (and lively).
I think I have answered my own questions but am still curious what Michele has to say about your situation (the LRT/180s). I haven't finished the book so better do it!

Hi Everyone
I need some help - I can't seem to find anything in either The Divorce Remedy or in Divorce Busting about rekindling love/passion.
I got the old "I don't love you to the same depth that you love me" speech.
I need some concrete ideas as to what to do. I feel like I'm hitting a stone wall here.
Thanks
Penny

posted October 04, 2001 08:00 PM ��
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michele,
Couple weeks since last posting here. Saw wife on monday, mainly to spend time with SD. She acted somewhat distant. Topic came up about when I asked her to move out. She makes is sound like she didnt want to move but didnt want the R to work either. I just said I made a lot of mistakes and wish I had done somethings differently and left it at that. A day or so later I sent an email thanking her for letting me spend time with her daughter and a few small compliments, ie her place looked nice. However 2 days after she read it she hasn't responded, which is unlike her. So I think after reading Ch 5, I might have to use LRT. I have stopped saying the L word, but do compliments have to be cut out as well. I know she thrives on these and are part of her love language (did I just answer my own question?). Or is just being more unavailible good enough? We still have joint bank accounts which she still has access too, but doest use much, yet! Do I need to close these and let her start working w/o a net as it were? Is this also part of the LRT technique, becoming distant in many areas that where once available?

Thanks. D

I've read DB and just got DR and immediately read the chapter on Infidelity. I am still totally confused!

H claims the A is over and that he wants to work on the marriage, yet:

--He still works with OW and refuses to look for a different job. (BTW this is a second job and not his main source of income, plus I have started working part-time to replace that income and have offered to work full-time to replace the insurance benefits that his second job provides.) He also spends recreational time once a week at this place.

--He has stood me up at two counseling appointments with two different therapists. His excuse for the first one was that it was a Christian therapist (we met through a Christian singles group and our shared faith was the foundation of our marriage), though he knew this when I made the appointment. He refused to go to the second (HMO) therapist because "the insurance doesn't cover marriage counseling", even though the intake person said that even though only one of us could be the official patient, we could both attend the sessions and essentially have marriage counseling anyway.

--H gave me Chlamydia as a result of his unprotected sex w/OW, and he refuses to allow me to contact her (because he promised no contact w/her) to notify her that she needs to see a doctor. He threatened to leave again if I pursued contact with her. Claims he "wants the past to stay in the past".

--He never talks about OW, such as whether she tried to talk to him at work or anything like that, and if I refer to the A and its sequelae on me (STD), he gets angry and defensive and punishes me with the cold shoulder for two or three days.

My suspicion is that the A is not over as he claims and that I should cease referring to the A and OW, so my recovery is completely on hold, but I cannot confirm nor disprove my suspicions because of a lack of resources. Going by his behavior, though, he appears to fall into the category of an ongoing A.

How will I know when the A is truly over so that I can do what the earlier part of the Infidelity chapter talks about (ask questions about the A, ask for reassurance, etc.)? Right now, it seems that the only test is to risk mentioning it and getting rejected again.

The chapter basically gives two opposite courses of action for the betrayed spouse, and I'm having a difficult time knowing which approach to take and when. Before reading that chapter, I had just decided to stop bringing it up and do everything his way, but at some point, don't I have to process all the information about the A so I can get beyond it? I have triggers constantly and have been doing my best to deal with them away from H and not let on to him my unbearable suffering. But I just don't think I'll be able to maintain this facade for very long.

Anyway, any insight on when we can actually get into the wound and clean it out would be most welcome. How will he be acting when the A is truly over, and is there any way to test the waters without risking his wrath again?

Harmony

Harmony,
I'm not surprised you're confused because you're in a very difficult situation. The chapter on infidelity begins with a step-by-step map for healing from the betrayal when both spouses are eager to get their marriage back on track. The next section refers to people whose spouses won't give up their affairs. It's clear from what you wrote that your h doesn't fit the first category; that he isn't willing to be supportive or reassuring in order to win back your love. He just wants you to drop it.

Without knowing more about what you've tried in regards to getting him to be more responsive to you, it seems that his commitment to the marriage is questionable. Is that right?

If he isn't fully committed to the marriage, pushing him about being forthcoming and more responsible might just push him out the door. On the other hand, if you set limits in a firm but loving way, he might come through for you. The point is, it's impossible for me to predict which will happen. You should only set firm limits if you're prepared to have him bail out if it doesn't work. That's a decision only you can make. I certainly can understand how you'd want him to shape up- given his irresponsible behavior. But in order for him to take your feelings to heart, he has to want to stay married. So, you're the expert here- you must be the one to decide what happens next.
Michele

Doer,
Yes, LRT means becoming unavailable. Your ideas are good. I know they're hard to do, especially when you want to be loving, but it's important for you to follow your plan. Good luck!
Michele

Yazzie and Wintergirl-
You both have questions about 180's and the Last Resort Technique- Can they go too far?

Look, the important part of doing a 180 is introducing the unexpected into your interactions. This doesn't mean that you should completely withdraw. Nor does the LRT mean that either. Doing the LRT means stopping the begging, pleading, pursuing, getting a grip on your own life and being more upbeat. But if your spouse starts to take an interest, that's a good sign and you should be available. Not clingy, mind you, but interested.

I think it might be tempting to back off completely and stop having contact because it might feel safer not to interact at all.But neither technique suggest your doing that. Re-read page 130. I wrote that if your spouse starts to show interest, readers should "Be loving in return, but do not become overly excited or enthusiastic."

But the bottom line is this, the proof is in the pudding. If your spouse is responding lovingly, you're on the right track. If not, you have to finetune what you're doing. Hope this helps. Do re-read the section on the last resort technique. Okay?
Michele

Hi Michele! Don't really have a question here, just a comment on using 180's when dealing with a depressed spouse.

I've found that your suggestion about "acting-as-if" my W wasn't depressed works great! To take that idea one step farther........

Just recently, I was involved in a kind of sticky situation where I work. It was during a time when my W was rather "blue", and I usually would have dealt with it inside of myself, even IF W was 100% ok. Instead, I shared my problem with her, and used her as a sounding board.

Some of the problem was in an area she is quite familiar with, and quite good at. After talking with her, she suddenly became "energized", and began putting together materials to help me out. She became enthused, and came to life focusing on MY problem instead of hers.

The next day, I found some cards and notes in the material, words of encouragement, of praise, and of love. Seems like letting her help me with my problems this time created a change from our normal interactions, helped her feel a sense of worth, and added another tool in the "more-of-what-works" treasure chest.

Hope this helps someone else out there. Thanks for all of YOUR help, Michele!!

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Jamesjohn ]

Michele,

H states that he is committed to rebuilding the marriage, and he is generally affectionate and loving and makes occasional gestures such as calling me from work, but when it comes to the biggies like counseling and talking about the A, he digs in his heels, and his latest statement was, "I'm going to do it my way, and I'm not going to follow anybody's script, including yours."

It is especially disappointing to me because before I agreed to take him back, I laid out for him everything I had learned about recovery and the extraordinary efforts that would be necessary to rebuild after such a blow. He agreed to do "anything", read books, go to counseling, etc., so I allowed him to move back in based on that. "Anything" soon was revised to "anything but that" whenever I tried to pursue any plan for recovery.

For the time being, I have decided to set a six-month limit on myself that he doesn't know about. I have challenged myself to act as if everything is okay (do it his way), be what he wants me to be, and see if he decides to get serious about the work that needs to be done. This way I have a light at the end of the tunnel and know I don't have to suffer in silence forever.

I have been writing down all my hurts, triggers, questions, outrage, everything that comes to mind about the A, in a notebook. This serves two purposes: 1) Anchors it so I can get it out of my head, and 2) Keeps a record of my journey and a ready-made place to start when and if H ever decides to help me recover from his A.

If he does not take a more active role in the rebuilding of the marriage by the end of the six-month period, then I will be more than ready to set and enforce the necessary limits. I will be getting repeat STD testing at the 3-month mark, and should this elicit any positive findings, THAT will advance the schedule immediately.

D-day, when he moved back in, was 1 month ago, and except for the few times I tried to discuss the A, our general interaction has been mostly like a honeymoon couple, so everything else I'm doing is working.

Because of that, I had a hard time trying to figure out what need the OP may be meeting as you suggest in that section of the chapter, and then it hit me that maybe it is admiration! He probably feels a lot of shame around me and knows he fell off his white horse. That is going to be a hard one for me to fulfill under the circumstances. I have no problem complimenting him on his looks, athletic ability, sexual skills, but when it comes to character qualities, all I can think of is that he works hard to provide for the family. At least it's a start.

Thanks for the expansion on what I read in DR, and now I'm going to go back and read the rest of the book!

Harmony

Hi Michele -
Thank you for responding to our questions regarding the 180 and LRT. I'm still not sure what is the appropriate way to handle my situation. H is in serious MLC - mostly in the anger phase. He moved out end of August. At first I was pleading, begging, all the things I should not have been doing. I stopped doing that, which did result in some changes. However, what happened was he behaved as though it was quite alright to be my "buddy" when he wanted to talk about his new life or problems he was having. Otherwise, any contact initiated by me, even if it was to bring mail by his office, was met with an angry, disrespectful outburst.

When I pulled away completely - not answering his calls, etc. The outbursts have stopped (obviously). On the MLC boards, experienced posters are recommending complete detachment and no contact initiated by me. That is what I'm trying to do until he is able to work through his anger and unresolved issues. He seems to blaming me for eveything wrong in his life (even things that aren't wrong but just different from what he wants now). So, my laying low to avoid the fallout of his MLC crisis seems to be counter to what you are recommending. When it comes to MLC spouses, how do we DB lovingly AND give them their space to work through issus, especially when there is so much anger directed at us?

Thanks, Michele, I'm really confused about this.

Yazzie Girl

Michele-

Thank you for DR. I'm not blind to the fact that not all marriages work out, but this book has given me a hope & outlook I absolutely did not have before.

I wish I would have bought this book when this whole situation started. I guess I was one of those people who thought this was just a phase & I kind of feel like this (excuse my language) hell I'm living through crept up on us so quickly.

I've always been a soft spoken person whose not complained about H going with his buddies and my H does a lot of what he wants to do. I've often stayed home and been where he knows I'm going to be and doing what he knows what I'm going to be doing. I use to have more control over our finances, but since our situation started, my H has been spending more money & spending more time with OW. I have tried getting mad, but that just makes him push away even further and makes him cold when I bring up the OW or the questions of "what, where, when, with who...etc."

I've always been a pretty affectionate person, but I'm trying to get out of that REALLY desperate, needy, clingy mode I've been in since this whole situation started. I guess I'm trying not to let him feed off of any anger I may have about this situation. I'm trying to do more for me and be a happier person again. Even though he is still insistent about going out of town to where I know he is seeing OW, he seems to be showing more of an interest in me and how and what I'm doing.

Does it sound like I'm on the right path? I hope so.

I'm in your area, so I'd love to see you or Arnold some time.

Thanks again. You've given me hope again.

[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: SueAnn7 ]

quote:
Originally posted by Michele:
This doesn't mean that you should completely withdraw. Nor does the LRT mean that either. ... getting a grip on your own life and being more upbeat.
Re-read page 130. I wrote that if your spouse starts to show interest, readers should "Be loving in return, but do not become overly excited or enthusiastic."

Thanks Michele, I did re-read that page and get it now. I am able to do this now and actually have seen baby steps. What you said about getting a grip on our own lives is the key, imo, and because I have done this, I am able to do what you've suggested. Also, being on antidepressant - something I've resisted, has helped me cope with reality. It hasn't changed it - but helps me cope.

To Yazzie...I'm no expert but have gone through something similar to you. My H would
still talk to me about his concerns (i.e. work) but was not receptive to mine. (He is more receptive now but that only happened recently and after I let go of my expectations for him). About going totally dark and avoiding your H's calls, that's what I meant when I asked the question about "overdoing" the 180 or LRT. If your H is trying to contact you, and he is nice, reward him by being nice in return. Keep your expectations low and realize that he needs to make baby steps too. If he is displacing anger on you, could you tell him politely that you won't tolerate it - then you leave the room or if on the phone say, I'm not listening to this, goodbye, click? I think the key is to not fall into the defensive trap when anger is being displaced on us. Do you actually fear your spouse though? If so, then I'd think going totally dark, because of safety concerns, would make sense.

Michele, hi, I'd posted under a new heading, sorry.

I've posted on newcomers and received a lot of help. The situation in a nutshell.
Married 7 yrs Me 32yrs WAW 34yrs D 4.5yrs
UK military (WAW ex military)
Separated 2.5yrs ago for 4 months (Me at military college + financial problems)
Separated now 1 month - reason from WAW - we've grown apart, how can I be the way I am, if I loved her...

I am more convinced it is the end by...

WAW not caring if I saw someone else (I'm not doing so/we haven't ever)
WAW 'clearing house' pictures, memetos, pets (out dog goes in the am)
WAW not willing for C
WAW convinced it is all over (appears to have even got over the emotion of it)

We were happy a few months ago, new place, new job (no financial worries) etc. D started school, W worked with horses, then it was all over. She said we'd reached this point before, not only separation, but the long talks which we didn't put into practice. Now she feels there is no way forward, at all. I moved out (1 mth ago) and she has got on with her life, busy etc. She seems happy with it all and her biggest concern is my R with my D. Do I just let her go, going dark etc mightn't work as then she'd feel D was being 'punished' by me.

I really do feel it is over, any contradicting evidence out there to assist me. Have read the threads (all of them I think). Do I carry on doing.......something or just throw in the towel, as WAW has done (i feel). She has just 'given up', no fight, no sadness, no arguing, just end.

Thanks for any guidance - I fear that the further down the road she goes the less she'll look back. I said to her that I didn't want her thinking What If in 6/12/18 mths. She said, quite rightly, that was her problem.

At present I have no idea what to do. If lovingly detach is the way then it seems that will be the end.

Thankyou

Steve E

Wintergirl -

Thanks for sharing your experiences with me. It always helps to hear from others. Up until recently, my H was deep in the anger phase of his mlc - now he seems to go in an out of this phase without warning. When he is angry, any contact from me is seen as controlling or persuing, and he will lash out at me. Since he doesn't live here, it is not a matter of personal safety. But I don't want to be subjected to the verbal abuse, either. Yes, I can simply hang up the phone.

I'm actually beginning to feel comfortable with progress we're making - and will continue to stay dark. I think the key now is to just be patient. He is making efforts to contact me, to find out what is going on in my life, and in small ways, to actually interact. This is all I want right now. I have to be very careful how I respond to anything he does. He has told me and others that he "doesn't want me to get my hopes up" about reconciliation. So if I respond in a way that he suspects as I am interpreting his attentions or actions as he is interested in me, he gets angry or does something cruel, just to make a point.

So far, I have been dark since mid-September. Only brief email exchanges regarding financial matters. I ran into him last week when I dropped mail off at his office (first time I have seen him since going dark). He was falling all over himself trying to follow me out the door of his building, asking me a series of questions about how I was doing, how are the animals, etc, etc... This is a huge difference from before I went dark. At that point, he was telling me I could disappear off the face of the earth, for all he cared

So, I guess I'm doing OK, and just need to be very aware of the baby steps H makes, and act accordingly.

Quite the chess game, eh?

Much Love -

Yazzie Girl

JJ-
Thanks for that really great story! I love it. It makes perfect sense to me. You know how I always use the see saw metaphor- "The more one person does of something, the less the other one will do." Well, you have been the fixer and she has been the fixee, as it were. So when you needed "help", it gave her the opportunity to step out of her fixee role and be positive and proactive. I'm so glad you thought of it. It probably boosted her self-esteem to be needed by you and for you to value her input. You're at it again, JJ, being the solution-oriented man i know you to be!
Michele

Harmony,
You certainly are doing your homework. You've got a wonderful plan that I agree with wholeheartedly. I am impressed with your ability to set a goal and have a plan and stick with it even under trying circumstances. You should feel proud of yourself for sure.

I also love the fact that you have done what I've suggested, ask yourself what role the OP plays in your husband's life. That's a really hard question. Your answer is very insightful.

Obviously, it's hard to compliment him on his values right now, however, despite his confusion, he is home with you, and, from his perspective, working on your marriage. It may not be to your liking completely, but nonetheless, he's there. If you find yourself able to say something like, "I know this must be difficult/confusing for you sometimes, but I admnire your commitment to being here working things out in our marriage" (or something like that), that would be great. If you're right about his need to be admired being fulfilled by the OW, taking this stance might help facilitate things.

However, I really like your back-up plan. It will give you strength.

You're on the right track.....Keep up the good work!
Michele

Yazzie Girl and Wintergirl,
Isn't it interesting, you both are noticing positive changes? GREAT!!!! I'm very happy. And I want to say that you are both terrific women for being able to be solution-oriented during this tough time. Good for you. Plus, you are so willing to look inward for solutions rather than blame, hold grudges and diagnose your spouses. You are true models for DBing! Thanks for sharing your stories and experiences here.

I have a suggestion- if your husband is mean-spirited and says things that make you angry or hurt, rather than hang up or set limits like you might under "normal circumstances"...you might consider saying something like, "When you say that to me, it really hurts my feelings. I don't expect you to change necessarily, I need to change. I feel I need to protect myself so I don't feel so vulnerable to the things you say."

It's hard for a husband to become defensive in return when you talk about feeling hurt rather than saying "I'm not going to put up with this anymore." Just a thought.

Thanks, WIntergirl, with sharing your very practical ideas with Yazzie, it's this kind of exchange that truly helps people achieve their goals.
Michele

Sue Ann,
Do I think you're on the right track? You bet! You are following the 7 steps with a vengence! Good for you. I know this is incredibly hard, but you have to keep focused on the fact that there are baby steps forward. That's great.

Keep reading and keep doing what works. IF you'd like, come to our office and meet with one of us. That would be wonderful.

In the meantime, rest easy, you're on the right track.
Michele

Steve,
I know you said that you have read the threads, but you should definitely read The Divorce Remedy...quickly. It will help you figure out whether detaching lovingly is the right approach for you. What you do depends on what you've already done (or haven't done). The book will help you figure this out.
Michele

Hi Michelle:

My H and I have been separated since Sept. 2, using a controlled separation agreement. We agreed on 2 months, with the contract expiring this Friday, Nov. 2. During this time we have not talked at all about what will happen on Nov. 2, he has not shared with me anything at all about what he wants, we have not talked about our R at all. He says we will talk on the 2nd or 3rd.

I've been working with my special angels on the bb on what my goals are, what needs to happen if H wants to return home, and I finally found an SBT therapist in my area last week and saw her for the first time and will see her again tomorrow. We'll also talk about this subject.

Any advice on how to handle all this?

Hi Michele,

I originally posted this on the topic, new and need help, but realized that this is the thread for your input. I have been posting and getting good advice on the newcomer's BB, but would love your take on things, as nothing I do seems to work. My story:

I read DR cover to cover in one night. While it opened my eyes to a lot of things I had been doing wrong, it doesn't quite compeletly fit, as there is nothing about meddling, controlling in-laws bent on destroying your marriage.

My situation is this. I have been seperated for almost 7 weekss I did not see it coming. My husband has depression and in the MLC stage. We have been having some problems in the last 2 years, especially with his lack of affection towards our son (he's 8), overly strict, and disrespectful of me. I finally gave him an ultimatum in May - go to counseling and parenting classes or I am gone. To my surprise, he had begun seeing a counselor a week before. We met her together once and that is when I first heard the word "depression". He refused medication, but after more counseling and the parenting classes, life was better than it had been in years.

Then it happened, his mother had a stroke, he stopped counseling, his sister moved here a week later and stayed with us. 3 weeks later, 5 days before signing the final papers to buy our new house, I discovered 1/2 of all the money in our accounts had been cleaned out and my husband had disappeared with his sister. After a huge arguement with my mother-in-law, he came back to get his things but insisted that his sister was staying. I told her to leave, a big fight ensued. The next day, as she was finally packing her things, she verbally attacked me (he was not there to witness it, so does not believe me), broke my phone, and told me she and her parents had been planning this for 2 years (right around the time I now see his depression started - when his dad got sick), and that they were going to take my son from me. I freaked and called the police. I got a restraining order against her. The day after she was served, my husband filed for divorce and refuses to speak to me or communicate in any way. He was forced to talk to me about our house and things as our lease was up and we both needed to move everything out, and I tried to talk to him. It seemed as if he was beginning to soften a bit and consider counseling when his sister pulled another trick. She called my bank, claiming to be me and tried to get information on my account and our joint account. The bank called the police and that was it for the bit of communication we had going, I was the bad guy again.

He has only called our son 5 times since this started, and only at my request or in response to an e-mail from our son. I tried writing to him, to no avail, he has turned into a robot, doing only as his parents order. He claims to want to be alone, but is living with his sister, who is jobless, likes to sponge off others, and knows he has money. he is not getting away from their influence. I know now that what I was doing was pursuing, and have stopped that.

His mother is a control freak, both her children claim to hate her, yet always do as she says. She admitted she never liked me because she cannot control me. She tried to get my parents to talk me out of the marriage because I was "not good enough" for their son. for 10 years I tried to deal with these people.

For the last 2 years I had been fooled into thinking that the illnesses had brought about a change in their attitudes towards me. I thought we had really gotten close and had grown to truly love them. All they while they were playing on my husbands guilt and feelings over his parents illnesses, working on controlling him again. I know I go on about my in-laws alot and I do blame them for a big piece of our problems, but I am also hurt very badly. I came to love these people and they betrayed me. I not only lost my H, I lost 4 people who were very important to me in the process.

I know that the things he's done is not really the man I've loved for the last 12 years. It's as if he's been replaced. When I asked him about his sister's threat to take our son, his response was monotone "I can neither confirm nor deny that statement". I almost fell over - it was honestly as if I was speaking to an alien.

I don't know if the 180 or last resort techniques will even work, as we now have no communication whatsoever. What advice can you give me? I desperately want to save my marriage and get my husband back from his "family".

He refuses to see our son unless I let him have him alone for a whole day, I can't do that. I have no custody papers yet and can't trust that he will bring him back. He also has a road rage problem, he's talked of suicide and drives like he's trying to get himself killed. This is taking an awful toll on my son.

I have been DB'ing before I knew what it was about, trying to make myself better for me and for him. I went back to school part-time, I stopped biting my nails, starting caring more about my hair, trying to lose weight, trying to take more of an interest in his hobbies. He acknowledged none of it. I have stopped all contact with him, but I don't even think he notices.

As angry as I was at first, I miss him even more every day. How, how, how do I proceed?

Thank you (and I apologize for the length of this post!)

Shawn

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: smp26 ]

I know I haven't given you a chance to respond yet, but I have one more concern that is eating away at me about going dark. I've seen this issue come up on other threads "read my attempts at detachment as not caring". I am so afraid that my H will see it that way. I have been totally dark for a week, and the last contact was a simple, short FYI call.

I am about 95% certain that this is the feeling that my H will get, that I do no longer care, that his family was right all along (and they will definitely tell him that), and that leaving was the right thing to do. The other 5% says, yes, but this is an Alien we are talking about - who knows. He did say in our last conversation that he also feels it's important for us to become friends and I said that's hard when you treat me like a criminal and avoid me like the plague - he just said yeah, and then I politely ended the call. It was the best conversation we'd had in a month.

I thought about sending him the section of DR about the "beginner's mind" and a short article on SBT tomorrow as food for thought for the weekend. Just a quick e-mail stating that you know I want to save our marriage, I am willing to change, this is something I think is worth while to look at, please read it over with an open mind and consider it. No pressure. No other OR mention.

I could really use some guidance on this before I make that decision.

THank you,

Shawn

ps - any plans on any future seminars in the Phoenix area?

Michele, thank you for your positive words - you definitely practice what you preach because your positive encouraging words had a positive reaction in me! I've been a little blue lately but your words perked me up and gave me something which put me back on the PMA track. I admit from time to time secretely sulking about feeling unloved/unwanted, but have grown enough to let it go and not let it consume me. H can't give what he's incapable of giving nor can he be forced to. A positive thing happened today, and it's been a long time...H showed concern over something that I had expressed sadness over (something that had zero to do with him). That's a baby step in the right direction. I'm not putting too much into it, but do know it was a positive thing.

smp, I'm curious what Michele would say about what you should do. I'm wondering since she said in her book things about 'not leaving R books laying around', etc., if she'd dissuade you from sending your H the DR article. I'm wondering if that is considered pursing on your part. I know your intentions are positive ones but do you really feel your H is receptive to reading articles and hearing about SBT? Only you can answer that. I'm only saying this to you because I took that route but it landed me back at square one, over and over. Finally, I quit doing that. I did not give up on H or the marriage but I gave up trying to convince him of anything. Actions speak louder than words anyway. As far as detaching goes, you might be interested in Billymo's "Let it go" post...his explanation really helped me. (It's on the MLC board.) I've been doing this for some time and probably made all the possible mistakes one can make, but finally think I get what I'm suppose to do.

Jen, if you are reading this, did you read that book on controlled separation...is that how you decided to do this? I ask because H and I are contemplating doing this.

Wintergirl,

at first he was willing to go to counseling, but after moving in with his sister he took the stance of "we've been to counseling before, why try again" and that we've tried everything. I thought the part about looking at things with a beginner's mind might intrigue him. I really have a fear of going completely dark and pushing his belief further that I don't care. I don't know where that belief even came from, as I was always trying to find more ways to spend time together, and recently trying to take more interest in his hobbies.

I have just never felt so lost and out of control in my life. He is letting his family run things and they are having his lawyer push this D through as quickly as they can. I KNOW I can't control anything but me, but I cannot get a grip on my fears and my sadness. I have started reading DR again - it helped me feel like I had hope before.

Shawn

Wintergirl:

Yes, I read the book on controlled separation, and I took the separation agreement right out of that book. It seems logical when I read it, and I simply couldn't have my H in the house any longer given his attitude and behavior, and I couldn't convince him to leave without help from my attorney.

Although the agreement made me feel good at the time (at least we both filled in the blanks and agreed it would be for 2 months) the 2 months is up today and there has been no word from my H. He told me several weeks ago that he didn't want to talk about anything until after the agreement expired.

Don't use the agreement without a lot of thought going into it. I sincerely don't know if it has helped us or not. I know it didn't solve anything except giving us at timeframe. H broke everything he agreed to inthe agreement. I broke nothing I agreed to.

quote:
Originally posted by smp26:
I really have a fear of going completely dark and pushing his belief further that I don't care.
He is letting his family run things and they are having his lawyer push this D through as quickly as they can.
Shawn

Shawn, maybe your instinct is telling you not to go completely dark. Sounds like you need some positive interaction between you and your H. Even though we can't control others, we can act as positive as possible around them. You said that you and your H had a good conversation - where he said something about the importance of you becoming friends, and your response was it's hard when he treats you like a criminal and the plague, then you said he agreed. I'm wondering though if your response made him feel badly about himself. I know with my H, even if I spoke the truth, if the truth was unflattering to him, he'd feel like I was "beating him up" mentally. It's hard to walk on eggshells while your heart is hurting. I'm sorry for what you are going through. I've learned though that we can still be 'nice' without overcompensating. I went about my own business, and tried really hard to not take my spouses moods personally.

Do you know for fact that his family is pushing for the D? Even if that's the case, I wouldn't bring it up to your H, because again, he could become defensive of his family.

I'm just wondering that if you are positive toward your H and try to shine light on any little good thing he does, then that might open the door for more progress. And if that door opens, his controlling family's opinions will have less clout.

Jen, when H and I wrote up the agreement (from that book) we decided on 6 months. I'm sorry to hear that the separation did not help and that he broke most of the contract.
Even though my H did not follow through with the separation (due to child concerns), I think he still plans on it - but I'm not brining it up! I'm trying to go about my life and hope for the best and not dwell on what the marriage isn't. Feels good to have finally reached this point. (I've been at this almost a year!)

Wintergirl,

You are right about the comment about treating me like a criminal....I knew I shouldn't have said it. As far as his family pushing the D through, I am 100% certain. They have been trying to get rid of me for 12 years, tried to get my parents to talk me out of the wedding, tried to get between us many, many times. His sister prided herself on the fact that they had been "planning this for a year and a half" and that I was "too stupid to see it". My H knows they are manipulative, knows they hate me, and knows they lie, yet he let them take him over again.

As far as the D goes - when I tried to talk to him about what "he" filed, he knew nothing about what was actually in the petition. He signed the last page, his lawyer signed the rest on his behalf. His income wasn't right, my income, all kinds of info that HE KNOWS was wrong. He didn't even know that this was a no-fault divorce state AFTER he filed. I received a court date because a request was filed for "expedited" processing for the child support portion. Because I filed for conciliation court, that is the only portion of the divorce proceedings not frozen for 60 days.

If he were so interested in helping out with childcare costs, he would not have dumped me with all the bills. I know...I'm starting to sound bitter again, not positive.

I do not plan on bringing his so-called 'family' up to him anymore - that's his cross to bear. They will push him too far soon enough as they always do. His sister is working on milking him for every cent he has. I only want to get him thinking that nothing is unfixable. I know he still loves me, he just won't admit it to himself. He has even said that he may have filed but it can be stopped, so that does not sound like someone sure of his actions. I just fear that by going completely dark he will get the I told you so's and it will simply help him in forgetting that his life with us actually ever existed.

I don't know. I would really love Michele's opinion on this. As you said, my instincts are telling me that completly dark is not the way to go. I am giving him his space as asked, but I think cutting him off 100% is too extreme. I have decided that I will not send that e-mail today or this weekend - give him more time to notice the lack of communication.

Thank you for your wonderful advice. I have alot to think about!

Shawn

I think going dark did just backfire on me. I wasn't sure, but it looked as if my husband had decided to drop his lawyer - a good thing for me. Now, as of yesterday - he has permanently retained his lawyer and he will be making appearances "on behalf" of his client. This paperwork was only filed yesterday - I dont know where to go from here.

Michele - what now?

Shawn

Well, I sent him an e-mail at work yesterday telling him what it is that I would like. Basically I said that a lot of time has passed in which I have been working on myself and things that I see I need to change. I hope he has has the opportunity to think about the wheels that have been set in motion.

I said:

quote:
It’s time to stop reacting negatively, and to start acting positively. We started on a vicious cycle and it’s time we put on the brakes and take a good look at what we are doing to our lives. That is why I filed for Conciliation. This is where I stand right now:
I do not want a divorce
I would like us to be friends again
I would like to start over - stop looking at the past and start looking at the future
I would like us to date each other again
I would like us to give reconciliation a xx month try (3 mos, 4 mos?)
If you still feel as strongly about divorce then as you do now, I will give you my full cooperation.

I am sure he feels that I am pushing him into concilliation and that's why he got the lawyer back. I wanted to try to smooth that over and the rest I took from letter's others have sent their spouses. I also told him that I am trying to give him his space. I sent this on Monday. Surprise, no response.

It's so hard not to get your hopes up. How do you make progress with someone who might as well have fallen off the face of the earth? He avoids anything to do with his "old life", including his own child and he is pushing the D through as fast as he can without thought. It is sooo frustrating!

How often do people like this come around?

Shawn

Shawn, I don't mean to burst your balloon, but I think it is rare that when someone has truly made up their mind, do they come back. I wish I was wrong.

Kevin,

Question is: Has he made up his mind? His family has made up theirs and for the moment he is allowing them to call the shots, but I still see him bouncing back and forth. He put down a deposit on a house with me, then backed out a week later just before signing? He wants counseling, he doesn't, he needs to think, he's thought about it. Doesn't sound like anything is made up to me. It looks like he is avoiding the issue so that he doesn't have to make up his mind. My H has had a big problem lately with making any kind of decisions of any kind, and I know now that that is part of the depression.

I refuse to give up hope, although I know it sounds some times like I have. This emotional roller-coaster is hell and I only hope that when the ride ends, we are together again.

Shawn

Thanks Michele for the books and to all of YOU out there ... I have not posted before, but I really want everyone to know that I appreciate all of the advice you have given to others.

I am at a loss of what step to take next... but being unavailable seems to be the next course of action... MLC... big time... I try not to talk too much when he gets home from work, and I stopped asking about his day... then he usually tells me something... but he has stopped complaining so much about work (hates his job)

I did have a phone consult with Arnold, and the Monday after that is when my H took off his ring..but I did try one of Arnold's suggestions, and there was no reaction... and when we had OR talk (initiated by him) about removing the ring, I asked if what I did bothered him... and he said "no" so, like everything I try... no reaction...

In taking off his wedding ring... he said I didn't seem to believe he was serious about a D, and in taking off the ring I'd have to believe him.... well, I believed him, I was just acting as if everything was going to be ok... but in not being depressed, and instead continuing to be upbeat and "happy" (yeah, right... he doesn't see me during the day!) I guess I was supposed to go back to being the way I was before I read DR, and be that clingy, crying, depressed person (9 months of that garbage of NOT being myself) And with an epiphany... the lights go on! I am back to my old self... that isn't good enough either.
Is he jealous that I have the will power to change over night? Jealous that I found my old self, and he still is in La la land? Oh, and it seems like things have only gotten worse since I did the 180 back to myself... which is not necessarily a bad thing, it's good for me, and much more pleasant for him to come home to.
We are still in the same house...,different bed rooms; he is hoping to get a new job, and he agreed to make one change at a time, but I am beginning to doubt that he will follow through with making one change at a time... and if the job is out of state.. he wiil leave...which may be the very best thing for him, oh, and maybe me...too.
It seems that the more I distance myself, the further away he pulls, too... the more I say,
"have a good time" the more he goes out...but he doesn't go out that much... I was gone over the weekend, and he pretty much stayed home and watched movies, and he had the perfect opportunity to go out "on the town"... I'd have never known.
I am hoping that my husband is so confused (heck, I know he is) with my DB'ing..and along with the MLC, he doesn't know how to react... so he pulls away even more... I don't know any more what he is thinking... "ET phone home"... I did tell him about DR and the MLC chapter, and I know that there is a lot of debate about whether or not this is a good idea. But the night he gave me the D letter, I lost all perspective... but started DBing again the next day, and have not stopped.
Oh, we have been together almost 30 years. kids are grown and gone... We were one of those couples whose marriages worked.. we got along so well... until recently, but even now, we seem to be getting on fine and he agrees we are...
I guess I don't "need" any advice, but your support and continued postings to all of us... and encouragement... it is all greatly appreciated. TC

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: tiredcheerleader ]

I just wrote a VERY long post on the MLC site, and guess what... I lost it when I it "add new topic" This is the 3rd time this has happened... any ideas? TC

Dear Michele

Well I read the DR book - a lot to take in there, but I'm getting there. I thought about my attitudes in the R prior separation, and thought I was perhaps too distant. So I've started being more available.

WAW told me two things, firstly that she was desperate to have another baby (I wasn't as she nearly died first time), and secondly that I manipulated our lives to my advantage all the time.

She still likes to go out to lunch with me alone, and spend time with D and I. Unyet she is full speed ahead in moving house (to a worse property by far) and unwilling to even look back. Her fear is that this will happen again in the future, by not having that future then it wont.

SO my question is - my approach has changed, she's happy with her situation with no change in her AT ALL. Just likes me being around, perhaps only for D. Any idea of how I can make short term goals when the WAS is so resilient and defensive?

thanks Steve

Hi, I've been posting here for over a year. I read DB and now the Divorce Remedy Book.

Both books have given me hope and pushed me away from divorce. I have made lots of changes and these have seen positive effects for the family. I have three children: 15, 12 and 8. I have always worked full time and had jobs that pay benefits etc. H was out of work three years, now works flexible hours and gets children to school.

We've been married 19 years and went to many counselors -- all recommended divorce and didn't seem to know how to fix anything. So without your books, Michelle, I wouldn't have known that divorce wouldn't solve our problems or that there was something I could do to change the situation.

Last year H had told me he would divorce me. He told me in October and again in December in a counselor's office. We were referred to mediators, we never went. Things are less stessful now because of all the changes I made in communication patterns.

My goal is to have a strong relationship again and be best friends again. I want us to help each other and be able to confide our hopes and fears and dreams.

However, I've not felt safe since the divorce threats started thirteen years ago. H would threaten me with divorce and tell me I was inadequate. I've grown a lot and know I could never put up with that abuse again. I realize now he was projecting his inadequacies to me and blaming all his unhappiness on me. I was also vulnerable and believed his criticisms of me too readily. H isn't able to apologize for his mistakes and cannot connect with people. He has offended my parents so much I'm surprised my Mother's willing to stay here. I have accepted H's shortcomings and realize he cannot be more than he is.

He now goes out Friday nights for four hours and Saturday nights from 6-7 pm to 1-2 am. He goes to Qi Gong and says he has to sustain his energy. The philosophy is to increase his goodness. So it may help him. I have started building a separate life from him since he is gone so much.

I want us to go to Retrouvaille -- but when I suggest this H goes into a rage. He insists he agreed to go after the divorce, I say he agreed to go before he filed the papers.

I want us to start having time alone and as a family. I want us to plan things together -- if I suggest a plan, he tries to ruin it. If I ask him to plan something, he won't. I need less chaos. He needs to feel out of control and in pain and has to blame his unhappiness on me.

I want us to be able to talk about feelings, but can't because he'll say I am the couse of his troubles and he wants a divorce.

I can only engage in small talk with him.

Any suggestions are welcome.

I'm not sure exactly where to start. My wife moved out a two months ago and she filed for a divorce two days later. I went straight to the Last Resort Technique. I am not sure if it is working. I see signs but then we continue to proceed down the divorce trail.

I am trying to be loving and not be overenthusiastic.

I am trying to be vague. But I usually tell her after the event was over how much fun my daughter and I were having.

I don’t say “I Love You.” I don’t try to hug or kiss her.

I try to leave after an event. Sometimes I talk the STBX and daughter into staying a little longer.

I don’t talk about the future. Especially since she filed for divorce and we are going through the motions.

I don’t talk about our marriage. I kind of slipped once in a while on small topics.

I try to have a PMA

I have only tried to invite her once or twice to events I know she wants to attend.
Also, I am trying not to inquire about her events. I usually say, “Have a good time”

I am reconnecting with old friends and getting out of the house.

I am not sure exactly how to proceed on the LRT. Or is this the only technique I should be using? She says she left me because I am controlling. I could never get a clear definition of what is controlling. I have posted several incidents on the board and they do not appear controlling to the DB public. But as someone pointed out their opinion does not matter; it’s the wife’s opinion that matters.

The LRT is difficult because we have a young child. Sometimes, our daughter is at mom's and sometimes at dads. We allow each other a nightly phone call to the parent that does not have her.

Here are some of the events that have happened in the last few weeks.
1) We already had a Halloween costume for our daughter. I asked are we going to trick or treat together this year? She says yes. The STBX asks if she can show up the night before to show me the correct way to put on the costume for our daughter’s school party the next morning. On Halloween night she shows up and we have a great time. She tells me she had a good time.

2) Monsters, Inc. came out this weekend. She called me three times to ask if we all could go. I was unsure on how to proceed because on page 130 it says, "Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all." So I was a little hesitant in responding with a Yes. She tells me "I would like to go see Monsters with both of you. I am available Sunday after 1pm. Just give me a call when you have a schedule." We did go on Sunday. She showed up a little early and purchased movie tickets for the family. I purchased the food and drinks. After the event we went to dinner. We mention to each other that we had a good time the next day. She tells me I looked handsome on Sunday.

3) Some subjects she appears to be angry or annoyed. For example, I called last night to talk to our daughter. My daughter was a little cranky and my STBX said she would call back in a few minutes. She didn't. I called back 2 hours later and she said, "What do you want?" in a mean tone. I guess my daughter was still cranky.

4) She tells me once in a while she still loves me. She tries to hug me once in a while or touch my hand or shoulder.

How do you do the Last Resort Technique when you have a child that both of you are trying to take care? I am trying to do everything on page 130. It appears if I let her control the shots she and act as if I don’t care then is more responsive to me. When I try to be vague she becomes angry. But on the other hand, she does not want to give me any information about her life and that's o.k. with me.

How do you LRT when you are proceeding through a divorce and you need to communicate about property and other things?

Lastly is the Last Resort Technique the only thing I should be doing now?

Dear DD,
You are doing everything right- by the book. Keep doing it. It sounds as if she is reaching out to you sometimes and you are responding well. As far as your question about how to act regarding divorce proceedings, you just have to continue on your DB path in the hopes that she will get cold feet about the divore before its too late. If you address your marital issues now,I do think it will backfire. I understand how hard this must be, but for now, it's the safest thing to do.

In regards to her anger when you are vague- this could be good or bad. If she is annoyed, but is very interested in your whereabouts, this might be good. If she is annoyed at your vagueness and pulls away, it's bad. So you have to decide which it is. Anger in and of itself isn't necessarily bad. Also, her anger may be the result of the the manner in which you are vague, not just the fact that you are vague. So think about it. Is there something about the way you respond when she asks you questions that irritates her?

Anyway, you're doing great.
Michele

Michelle

Thanks for your feedback! I have found the more information I offer and the nicer I am she responds well. Maybe she will have second thoughts about the divorce.

Have you ever thought about a DB dating service? All of these people willing to do what ever they need to work on a relationship. I figure if all of us are married to each other, then the 50% divorce figure would drop to 20% maybe?

Have a wonderful day.

Steve,
The fact that your w likes being around you is good, even if it's because of your d. Don't worry if she is resistant right now, set your short term goals as described in the book and keep moving forward. Obviously, there is no way to guarantee things will go as you hope, but you really have nothing to lose. So start setting your goals now!
Michele

Neely,
I am really glad that my books have given you hope. However, I want them to give you more than hope- I want them to help you construct a plan. You need to go through the 7 steps and really think through what you need to do next. Start by identifying your goals. Make sure they're realistic given your h's frame of mind right now. Write them down and decide whether what you're doing is bringing you closer to your goals or pushing you further away.

one step at a time...
Michele

Michelle, My husband walked out in July. Since then, he has been here every day, either in the morning,evening or both, so our children won't know we're separated.(they are ages 3 and 5) He originally got an apt., decided it was too expensive and now spends nights either on my couch or at his sister's house.
He insists he eventually wants a divorce.(has every lame reason that I see on all the other posts. I think the main reason is I got totally over involved in being a mother and made him feel unloved and undesired)
We are going to counseling, supposedly so we can resolve our issues with each other and maintain a friendly relationship for our kids' sake. My H admitted to me and the therapist that he is depressed. The therapist knows that I don't want the divorce and is gently trying to show my husband that people and situations can change for the better and to not be so negative about life. I think the C sees a chance to save the M but I don't know if my husband is too stubborn and self pitying to ever give in.(he's got an addictive personality - although he is sober now,and as he himself admitted, addicts like to create chaos in their lives.)
My question is, do I allow him to see our children every day and be in our lives constantly or am I letting him have his cake and eat it too? If I give him an ultimatum to make a decision to stay or go, (after the holidays) I'm afraid it will force him to save face and completely separate. Once we tell the kids and hurt them like that, I'm afraid there's no going back. Should I hold off because he is going to weekly counseling with me, knowing I ultimately want to work things out? Other than the counseling, I am DBing and I never beg, cry or talk about him coming back.
I'm so afraid that my urge to ask him to make up his mind is my impatience and I'll be sorry if I push. On the other hand, some of my friend's tell me he'll go on like this forever, because he has the best of both worlds. Thanks, Joan16

Michelle,

I have read your books and I think that they are wonderful. I have tried to use your techniques. I was wondering if you could help my "Satlemate". I will not sign separation paperwork, which totally angers my H. He says that I am controling his life. I have tried to "go dark" at this stage, however, it is causing us to be at a "Stale-mate". Friday, H and I went to counseling. I found a counselor who is will try to save the marriage. My H trying to convince the counselor to convince me that the divorce is best for both of us. When I first met with the counselor alone, I told him (the counselor) that I did not want to have anything to do with a counsleor who didn't believe in marriage commitment. The counselor told me that he is there for me and that he is a believer in making marriages work. I intend on "going dark" for approximately two weeks (no contact at all). I have to put a limit on this becuase I have to get my husband into counseling. For the next two weeks, my counsleor will be working with me on a list of things that will make me happy and things that I would like my H to do (equivalent, I guess, to your "baby steps".) Can you tell me if you think that I am going about this correctly and what else you think that I can do? H claims to only have a "freindship" with a woman in a foreign country, however, I do not believe that it is only a friendship. Plus he is very stubborn. Please see stich "Mid-life crisis at 28" under "I need Support". Thanks.

Up!!!

James I was wondering if you might pass by my thread linked below and give some insight as to what I am doing wrong or what I can be doing better. I am so confused right now and on the verge of throwing in the towel with the STBX.

As one who has made it to where I would LOVE to be I would value your input.