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Okay gang, here are some of the ground rules for discussion of The Divorce Remedy. It will be impossible for me to read everyone's life stories since I expect many questions. To get the most out of our "conversations", feel free to do the following:

* Ask me to elaborate on certain points in the book. Refer to the pages and/or chapters so that I can be as specific as possible.

* If you have questions about the applications of certain techniques to your specific situation, describe your situation briefly and ask a very specific question.

* Feel free to share your thoughts about what you've read

* Depending on the number of questions, be patient about my ability to respond to everyone in a timely fashion. I'll do my best!

* Let's enjoy the on-line book club discussion! Go for it!

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http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684873540/qid=998070082/sr=2-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/002-4273788-3428003

Michele

[This message has been edited by Michele (edited 09-04-2001).]

Hi Michele,

I can't apply step three because W doesn't want to do anything for me or OR right now. My questions is about the example couple you used in Ch. 5, p 99, Garth and Lena. I'm in the same boat as them, W wonders if she would miss me. In their case should Garth have let her move out? In my case I would be the one to leave. No kids are involved.

I've done the 180 and she's noticed. She still maintains a friendship with OM and claims her feelings don't cloud her judgement. Is it better to stay under the same roof or should I jump to the last resort technique before she asks me to leave? We're still semi-friendly at this point.

The particulars of my situation are here:

http://www.weiner-davis.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/004150.html

Thanks,
-r

Michele...

I wrote you last week, and you even posted my letter in this section (tho it's been removed), and in http://www.weiner-davis.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/004135.html. Additional relevant details are that W has hired lawyer, but not filed, has insisted that she needs a divorce and is having a very intense PA. She's not moved out, but last week moved out of bedroom.

I gave her a copy of "Should I stay or Go", which Arnold says he and you are not fans of. She's somewhat interested in it.

Given that she was so moved by your first chapter, I'm wondering if and how to present Divorce Remedy to her. She knows I have the book. I'm concerned about giving away techniques, like LRT and 180, and having it tossed in my face. I do so much want her to know about the Seven Steps, but I wonder about revealing too much of my hand. I would so love for her to read success stories, midlife crisis, and adultery. I'm also concerned about how she'll react to you strong cautions that some marriages are not salvagable ("See, even you're guru says so"). What are your thoughts and guidance? Maybe a chapter-by-chapter approach? But if I try to regulate her pace, isn't that controlling?

Please advise

(Again, feel free to use my letter as you see fit)

[This message has been edited by Zebra (edited 09-04-2001).]

Reachingout,
Don't move out. Stay friendly but withdrawn. You say she's noticed your 180's. How so? What's been different? Don't pressure her about her PA. Read the chapter on infidelity if you haven't already, especially the last section.

Z,
Don't give her the book. Go slowly. IF she's willing to read something, give her "Getting Through to the Man You Love." Some similar ideas, but no LRT. Women often love it.But don't push any book on her that she doesn't seem interested in reading.
Michele

Hi Michele! I have a question that falls somewhere between recovering from infidelity and overcoming passion meltdown. My W and I are traveling down the road to reconciliation, and are slowly regaining confidence in our relationship. One of our (my?) major problems seems to be that I may be farther along in forgiving my W's affair than SHE is. She's harboring a lot of guilt over what happened, and it's putting the binders on our physical relationship.

I know that my W has to work through a lot of this on her own. I know that patience is important. What I don't know is if there is any way I can help speed up the process. Or if I should even try. Is this just something that needs to be dealt with in counseling sessions? If so, should I be the one to bring it up, or wait until the time is right for her? Or should I just "do nothing" about it at this time, and just keep doing what I'm doing to draw her closer to me?

BTW, I've found that trying to give your spouse books to read is usually "more of what doesn't work". It seems to come across as controlling, manipulative, and telling them what they need to do to "fix" themselves. I've had more success in buying my W books by her favorite authors, or about her favorite subjects, or something really fun and funny to read. No relationship type of reading material. Give them something that will put a smile on their face when they receive it, and help them to think "happy thoughts" of you whenever they see it or read it.

What HAS worked well for me is sharing the SBT techniques I've learned as they relate to people outside of OR (i.e. family, friends, co-workers, etc.) I've been trying to introduce a lot of the concepts to my W in our dealings with our children, and it's been working GREAT! In fact, it's helping us to be a stronger team in dealing with the home situation, which, in turn, is helping us to become stronger as a couple. I know, most of the books say that you have to be strong as a couple FIRST to be an effective family, but that isn't always the easiest thing to do in our situations. So, why not take the "back-door" method to it, try something different, and see if it works, right?!

Thanks, Michele.

Michele - My situation with my h is in your chapter Pulling It All Together. The difference is we are not living together but we were raising our grandson together and he now has him all the time except when I pick grandson up to stay overnight about every two weeks. We were married 30 yrs-kids grown-lots of stress with kids-raising our geandson-H definately in MLC. Been separated 6 months worked on marriage for first 3 months and he saw changes but not in himself o he wanted distance. Typical talk and actions o MLC. Problem is he doesn't talk, tell me anything, etc. Never shows me he sees the difference in me ex: look better than I have in about 20 years, attitude, etc. Which is not much different than he always was for 30 years. Has ow I think - know it was an EA, pretty sure it is a PA too. How far how often he sees her I don't know. He is going to co-dependent Annoy. Says it is helping him. We don't talk about our R what little we see of each other. He feels extreme guilt. I can tell by his actions, won't look at me, etc.) I made my goals but can't seem to get anything to move in our relationship right now. I'm becoming very discouraged. I don't know how to ask him what I want (step 3) I don't want to push him if he is not ready. Where do I go from here?

Brenda

Hi Everyone!
I may be the only divorced person posting here, but Michelles book has given me hope. EX lives with OW he left me for, 4 yrs ago. The hate wall between us has finally come down and I can say we are casual friends right now. He has actually expressed some negative feelings about his home situation, but not in great detail, and has even invited me out to lunch several times. We are going to lunch again this week.. I feel this is now my "window of opportunity" to use everything I can from Michelles wisdom.
Here is my delema: Supposedly ex and OW got engaged a yr ago, but there is no date set and ex actually told me 3 months ago there is no way he is going to marry her the way she is right now--don't have details. Anyway, I have kind of an inner conflict going-basically I am trying to steal my ex from the woman he is engaged to!I'm trying to do to her exactly what she did to me! Doesn't that put me in the same category with her, because the last thing I want is to be like her.I have always tried to take the high road. Michelle, what are your feelings concerning this, as a counselor?

Dear JamesJohn, Hello again!
Before I can answer your question about whether you can speed up bringing back your intimate relationship, we need to review Step #6- Take Stock. You have come a long way and it's important to take an inventory of what's worked and what hasn't.

When you want to be intimate, what have you been doing and how has she been responding? When you answer these questions, be specific and action-oriented. As with everything else, you have to approach getting things back on track like a trial and error process. Sometimes loving patience works best. Other times, patience only prolongs the situation. You need to tell me more about what happens when you sit back and wait versus times you've approach things differently. Don't limit your thoughts strictly to the question of intimacy. Think more broadly about how you have approached her on other matters and her typical response. This will help you figure out what you need to do next. I worked with one couple where patience helped to piece the marriage together but intimacy was still a problem. It remained a problem until the man finally got impatient and frustated. His wife became more tuned into his needs.

But I'm not suggesting you flip a switch just yet. Think it through. Counseling might be a good suggestion, but only with a pro-marriage, solution-oriented therapist who understands the process of change and is committed to marriages.

Again, I still would need to know how you've been handling this situation thus far.

Great ideas about reading suggestions. I like that! I also like that you are applying the SBT techniques to other relationships. And by the way, becoming a better parenting team is not a second-rate way to improve a marriage. I often work with couples to improve their parenting teamwork with the hidden agenda of improving their marriage. It often works like a charm. Keep doing it!

You're doing great!
***********
Brenda,
You say you wrote your goals but nothing is happening. Why not share your goals here and let's take a look at them together. I wonder if they aren't too lofty at the moment given his MLC. Let us know what you've written for goals based on what you read. Okay?
******************************
DB713,

I'm delighted that the book is giving you hope. That's great. And from the sound of things, you should be hopeful. It appears that your husband is doing many in his shoes do after a while, they realize the grass isn't greener on the other side. Hooray.

Look, I can understand why you feel conflicted and I wouldn't suggest that you continue pursuing your ex for an extended period of time or if he were married. He's not. You're right. You have a small window of opportunity to see if you can reignite his interest. Be his friend, go out for lunch. Let him take the lead in everything that happens. IF he expresses interest in pursuing the relationship YOU MUST TAKE THINGS SLOWLY OR HE WILL GET COLD FEET. Be interested but not doting. Also, resist the temptation to comment negatively about the OW, even if he says something negative. You will get him to be defensive of her, which is really defensive of him and his actions. So, not matter how much you dislike her, don't stoop that low. Take the high road, just like you said. Pay close attention to what you are doing and saying that brings him closer (Step #4) and make a note of things that work.

Finally, remember that 10-15% of divorced couples remarry each other. It's not over yet.
Michele

OK Michele.

Goal 1 - I would like h to contact me more often just to see how I am and not just out of necessity.

Goal 2 - I would like h to begin acting as if we still might have a future together.

Goal 3 - I'd like h to open up communication about us - our future - where he is at, etc.

Goal 4 - I'd like to spend more time with him even if it were just as friends for now.

Goal 5 - I would like h to not see ow again.

Too lofty? I have backed off for 3 months waiting for him to "find himself". He is the type to not make the first move. He never shows any emotion. If he thinks I want a divorce he would agree to it even if he didn't. Not because he is willing to please me but he is not a fighter. He holds his emotions in and never confronts them. Will never admit he is wrong or hurt or upset. Where do I go from here?

Brenda

Thanks for response Michelle.
I do realize that remarriage odds are low,as you have quoted the statistics, but I want to be in that minority. I want to also know that I did not leave one stone unturned. I wrote you a long time ago with the question of when is it time to give up, and you responded that it is an individual thing. Something in me keeps telling me not to give up yet, and I have to go with my instinct. I just can't let impatience and lack of impulse control take over. This is my time to put into practice all I have learned from you and others. So, here we go>>>>
My immediate goal is to keep our communication lines open and to go from casual light conversations to making emotional connections during our talks. I do know to get to that point will take some time, and has to be broken into small steps, which I will list. Please refine this and make corrections as you see fit.
Tomorrow is our lunch date, which means we will spend approx 1 1/2 hrs together. My plan:
Meet him with smile and friendly greeting
Mirror his posture
Keep conversation light and cheerful, kind of like when on first date. No arguing whatso ever!
Listen, listen, listen to what he says and watch for clues that will be of help to me
Watch his facial expressions and body language for signs of discomfort or boredom, and change subject immediately
Try to ask some open ended questions so there will be some actual conversation, rather than just yes and no answers., especially on subjects of his liking, such as golf, football, his work.
Compliment him on his appearnace.
Be the first one to end the lunch date, and thank him for the nice time.
And of course, act as if, everything in my life is fine.!

How will I know if things are progressing:
We will have pleasant time-there will be laughter and joking around
he will suggest another lunch date
We will talk about another subject besides children
Facial expressions and body language will provide clues that he is comfortable in my presence.
Possible quick hug goodby

Am I on track here with the techniquesas described in the book? Setting the goals is more difficult than I thought. I found myself being way to general, and have to learn how to make them more specific. However, I wanted to start with just one goal, but I do realize there are others that I must work on also.

Michele, in last 3 wks, I read DB & 7 steps (Great books!!), talked w/ Arnold. I had a severe anger problem which is now completely resolved via God & my forgiving others (my thread in newcomers - So Scared Have I Lost Him). My H says he hates me due to years of verbal abuse (10 total, 1.5 married). In the midst of this I confirmed he's having a PA--happening for 1 month. I don't blame him 100% since I was barely civil (little talk, no affection or I love yous) to him in the last three months--he said if he'd felt loved it prob. wouldn't have happened. I'm willing to forgive the affair & work on us but he finds it hard to believe I've changed & won't hurt him again. DB says not to pursue but since our problems arose from coldness--can my 180 be love/pursuit? He seems to be seeking it--asked if I even cared if I lost him. Don't want to drive him further away...plus he says he is emotionally attached to OW at this point. Help! What techniques do I use? (Thanks!)

quote:
Originally posted by Michele:
Reachingout,
Don't move out. Stay friendly but withdrawn. You say she's noticed your 180's. How so? What's been different? Don't pressure her about her PA. Read the chapter on infidelity if you haven't already, especially the last section.

Thanks Michele. I've re-read the infidelity section but I find it hard to completely relate because it was an EA. She told me about before it turned into PA (3 days after mutual admiration/feelings talk with OM). I don't believe it reached PA before she asked him to back off (less than 2 weeks after admission of feelings). We talked alot the first week after everything was in the open. She told our therapist she noticed I'm really listening now and she's enjoyed our talks. She's open to hanging out with me as friends and I can tell she still feels comfort in our hugs. She would have "loved to go" to the ballgame today, but she didn't know it was a day game and she had to work.

I've got my goals set. One of them is to not backslide. It should be easy to tell if she get's more distant. Another is to get her to stop feeling like she needs to warn friends that "Me and R might not be me and R anymore."

This morning there was a death in the family. I want to console her and have been, but I also dont want to try too hard. Even in times like this should I just let her come to me? I don't want to give her reason to seek emotional comfort with OM. It's a little hard to be withdrawn in this situation. Any suggestions?

-r

[This message has been edited by reachingout (edited 09-05-2001).]

Michele,

Short my wife left and filed for D in July. I have been Db since. I came aware of A with a man that was a clinical instructor of hers in a graduate program. I called his house this past weekend in AM to tell her when I would bring back the boys (2-7,11). Until this point she did not know I knew. Prior week she gave me a hug and was confiding some in me as her support friend had a mental breakdown. I took the boys back and smiled at her. She gave me the "its not what you think" I switched the subject to a lunch date the next day to talk about the boys. Kept the lunch, had a great time. Laughed and talked for a long time. No OR. This AM she calls me with a wake up call with Misc stuff then stops by to see one of the boys on her way to work.

I am planning on going very very dark here. I am still waiting for you book to arrive but I need to emotionally detach. I don't trust her or her motives. Suggestions. Distancing and not calling were working before and still seem to.

Michele,

This is my first post on your message board. I am reading The Divorce Remedy and find it to on target with respect to my situation. My wife and I have been married for 13 years (I'm 48, she's 43 and this is both of our second marriages), and, especially since the birth of our second child 5 years ago, we have been drifting furhter and further apart. My wife wasn't meeting my needs (marriage has to be more than raising the kids -the children have been her only major major priority - an understandable one given our loss of two babies early in the third tri-mester from pre-term labor) and I wasn't meeting hers (intense emotional connectedness, lots of romance and sharing of feelings). Her attempts to get me to meet her needs felt like nagging, and I just emotionally and physically checked out on her somewhere around 1 1/2 years ago. I think I may have been clinically depressed, at least my life at home (but not work) felt like I was often in a fog.

In any event I finally woke up one day and asked her why she was so unhappy. While I knew we had problems (serious ones, that I had been ignoring because I was too much of a coward to face another lecture about her needing more romance,more intense emotional connectedness and more sharing of feelings), I was surprised, shocked and dismayed to find out that she had basically given up on our marriage.

So, now that I'm ready to move forward she's stuck. From reading your book, it seems like a pretty classic Walk-Away Wife situation. I love my wife and value our marriage. I feel like a real schmuck for sitting on my hands so long, for putting her through all her pain, and putting myself into the bottom of the ninth with two outs, nobody on base and behind 9-0.

We are both in marital counseling (for about 6 weeks, same counseler she was seeing for 6 months -- I thought for grief counseling to help her with the death of her father, but as it turns out, our marriage and I was the main source of discusssion).

So...here is my question. I am certainly at a point where I cannot ask my wife for anything (Chapter 3). While we are friendly, there is no physical intimacy, and she has indicated great pessimism that I can change, and even suggests that change isn't even relevant. Her main perspective is that we got to where we are because we both have different beliefs and values, and over time we changed to a point where there just isn't enough common ground to build on. Her attitude towards change is that, if you have to change (other than superficial change) then you aren't being true to yourself and as a result, the change is wrong. She says she is okay the way she is and I am ok the way I am, and if we no longer connect, then it must be a case of irreconcileable differences. I don't believe any of this, but I'm only 50% of this general partnership.

Don't worry, there is a question. One of the real sticking points that has been a barrier to effective communication between my wife and I, is that whenever I ask my wife to give me a specific example of what I can do that would help her feel the kind of closeness and shared feelings she is looking for, all I get are more vague references, a lot of churning of hands, and a look on her face that says "how can I make the blind see?". The closest she comes to being specific is to say that if I was willing to sit and talk about anything and everything with her and some of her friends (male and female)frequently, for an extended period of time (3-4 hours) that this bonding might take place. I'm sorry, but that doesn't work for me, I've tried and it just wears me down. Finally, here comes the question, How can I get my wife to articulate more clearly and in a more action oriented way, what she wants me to do (at that point when the timing is right to bring up the subject of me asking her and her asking me for specific changes -- until then, I'm just working on me, and trying to be as good a housemate and father as I can be). Being specific and giving action-oriented examples is a real issue for her, so unless we can overcome this, I'm not sure how to make any progress.

Help!!

Hi, Michele!

On a scale of 1 to 10, about 7 months ago our marriage was at about 1 1/2. Today we're looking at about a 6 1/2. Not REAL satisfied right now, and would be happy at 8 1/2 or 9. (I AM pretty happy, and thankful, for the progress we've made so far, though.) One thing I feel would bring things up a 1/2 step (or more!) would be regaining the physical intimacy we once had in our relationship.

Some things that I / we could do�..

1. Arrange for the children to be gone from the house occasionally.
2. Create special, romantic evenings together.
3. Let go of our guilt and fears.
4. Get the om totally out of our lives. (I'm pretty sure W's done with him, but I don't think she made that really clear to him. She kinda left it hanging, hoping he'd go away, and he hasn't. Not quite sure what to do on this one, confront HIM, or just do nothing)

When it comes to initiating physical intimacy, I've been letting her take the lead. This has been getting mixed results, with numerous hot and cold periods. Many of the cold times seem to be due to times of contact with om. It seems like the hot times were the times when she convinced herself things were over with him. (Oops! Blame game?! I DO need to pay more attention to what's going on during these times. I'm sure it goes beyond just these things.) One of the things she talked about their R was the raw passion between them (it was, though, both good and bad). She did mention one time that we had that really sticks in her memory was when I came home from work one day, dragged her into the bedroom without saying a word, and ravished her. There were many other times when our physical intimacy was daring and exciting and "passionate". I have been hesitant about instigating this lately because of all the circumstances, but I may be wrong. It was "more of what worked" in the past, so it might be time to see if it works now. Maybe "act-as-if" things were back to normal?

When I first moved back home, things were in total chaos. I've been the "calm, stable, and rational" one while things have been getting settled down. As I'm looking back now, there has been times when my "losing it" has been quite effective. Or maybe it was more of a standing up and making my boundaries VERY clear. This doesn't always go over very well at the time, but usually produces results soon after. One good example of this is the last time I discovered she and om had renewed frequent contact, I left her a copy of an article from the marriage-builders web site about how affairs should end. I highlighted the parts I wanted to make sure she paid attention to, and didn't say a word or ask her about it. Within 2 days, she set up our first appointment to see a counselor together.

My W's dealing with a lot of low self-esteem issues, but is slowly working through them. She goes through periods when she seems to push me away, and questions why I want to be with her when she's so screwed up. I try to use the pursuer / distancer dynamics to my advantage during these times, even just for very brief periods, and it's been working pretty well. I try to be careful, though, as she is still unsure that I'm going to stick around, and it was during a period of my going very dark that she hooked up with om. He is a "bad boy", a user and a loser. Her ego was such that he had her convinced that he was the best she could get. She still struggles at times about being with the loser crowd, it's much easier to live "down" to their standards. I try to be careful about having very many expectations of her because of this.

She is the type of person who cheers for the underdog, and likes to help and to "own" other people's problems. She has the biggest heart of anyone I know, which makes it easy for others to take advantage of her. I've found that she wants me to be strong, but she has a tendency to not worry about how her actions affect me because of that strength. When I show some of my weaknesses, share some of my non-OR problems with her, it seems to draw her back towards me.

Overall, I've pretty much been letting the situation proceed at her pace. This has been working pretty well so far, however, I do get torn about whether are not I should be taking a stronger lead. Or if I should stick with the "butterfly effect", and keep nudging just a little to keep things rolling in the right direction. It does seem that anytime I push very much, I'm faced with an unmoveable object.

Thanks, Michele! Sorry this was so long, but you got me really thinking again!

[This message has been edited by Jamesjohn (edited 09-05-2001).]

Michele,
Little bit of history: We have been married almost two years. We had a daughter and we broke up during the first trimester of my pregnancy with her. She is three now, marriage almost two years and a new baby due in three days. About two weeks ago I noticed couple of strange behaviors by my husband. He finally told me the reason he came home late (after I blew up). He has been talking to this friend (female - only friend per him and her ) each night, about 2 hours each time.
This is only phone friendship, they have never actually seen each other in person. In the anger I said few things and one of them was whether he was looking for a divorce. After our daughter went to bed he said how he doesn�t love me anymore. He has been pretending all this time about our love. He acted as if he was in love but the feelings never caught up to that. He married me for the wrong reasons, family pressure. Few days later he came a little down on some of those but still he doesn�t love me and doesn�t believe he can ever love me. He should have broken up with me many years ago and the bad mistake is that now he will have two children with me.
We went to see a counselor and had 3 nice evenings together. Nothing intimate just talking and we felt connected again. I told him I don�t mind if he is talking to his friend but please don�t be sneaking around. I again caught him sneaking around and then that he sent her a present. I blew up (not a good thing) and asked him to move out. He didn�t want to do that. I forced him out the next morning and he did it. That was 5 days ago. We spoke today and he said he is not moving back in. He will go to talk to a counselor with me. He said he will read the Divorce Remedy book.
Should I give the book to him so he can read it?
He said he is never going to move back in. Since he has been out he said he has been very happy other then missing his daughter. He has also talked to the OW (friend) every night since he has been away. Is there even a point to the counseling, I am still trying to find one.
Should I go dark on him? Just stay friendly. I have read the book but I can�t see me being able to apply a lot of it as HE IS OUT OF THE HOUSE. I guess I did the LRT without even realizing I did it. I gave him what he wanted. I guess I am not sure how I can experiment and watch for results when he is not in the house and is telling me he will never be back here.

Thanks.

Just want you all to know that I'm reading your posts but I am also preparing for some media tomorrow. I will get to your questions as soon as I can!
Micehle

First my situation (in a very truncated form)...

W went to group therapy for Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD). Had a semi-physical affair with someone from the group. Wasn't sure if she wanted to work on the marriage. Eventually went to therapy, but her heart wasn't really into it, and she quit almost right away and moved in with OM (it remained only semi-physical... she claims they did nothing more than kiss. I'm pretty sure I believe her.). Stayed with him for a little bit and then moved in with her parents in Chicago (we were in California). Got homesick for CA and wanted to move back in with me "as friends." I tried to be a good friend, even comforted her when OM moved back in with his wife and she was upset (which took a LOT of strength). But I also started getting impatient and depressed because I wanted more. She was starting to feel trapped while she was trying to work on herself and her SAD and moved out again. This time she's staying with a cousin in CA. But she left without even telling me she was leaving (I was very worried about her until I found some stuff missing of hers when I came home from work one day). It's been three weeks and I've only very briefly heard from her in a short email letting me know where she was. I was planning on using the last resort technique from your book of basically not talking to her and seeing what happens. While talking to my marriage therapist today, though, he seemed to be suggesting more of the "Love Must be Tough" approach. (He didn't describe it as such, but it was basically the same thing.) What he was saying is that I've been putting everything in her court.... that she knows that I'd be devastated without her and that I'm basically waiting for her while she does whatever she wants and that I should show a bit of backbone and see what happens, hopefully making her respect me more. I can see the logic behind that and was even considering it myself for a bit. But I'm not sure if that's the right way to go. It would definitely be a big 180 if I did it the right way, but the problem is if it backfires, I can't go back on it or I lose all my credibility. I handled things poorly before and now I'm treading a very thin rope and any mistake could cost me a lot. I'm not sure which approach is the best way to go.

Michele,

Just finished your book and as expected, it was wonderful. I always pick up new techniques and ideas.

Although I've been practicing all of the recommended techniques from day one my H walked out, I think that being separated makes things a lot harder.

I focused on the chapter "putting it all together" and felt that the Dean and Carol scenario was close to my situation with the exceptions that a) my H did not leave for a/w b) we are separated, now 11 months.

Is there really any hope for two people that are now just "real good friends" and nothing more. My H hasn't talked about anything pertaining to our relationship since Feb. of this year. He still was moving on with his life and was afraid to come home because he felt things would just be the same.

Now, we have a great friendship and haven't had a disagreement or sour note since the day he walked out. Due to my pride, I instantly did a 180 and never pursued him or have ever addressed our relationship or future. But how do I know whether he is actually happier being alone, living like a batchelor? He's being wonderful, sweet and has definetely made wonderful changes; however, I feel so much that he's too comfortable right now to want to return home to the routines of marriage.

When is the right time to address this? Do I just sit back and continue waiting for him to put closure on this? I'm at a stand still right now and I really don't know what to do. Our relationship is great but when will I know whether it's going to move into anything other than a friendly one?

Mary

Hi Everyone!
I just read where Michelle's book has made it to the top 100 at Amazon--A well deserved congratulations ,Michelle! Good luck with the media event. This book has so much value in helping people. I hope you make it to the top 10!!!

Michele, I am so excited to have your new book. I actually skipped straight to the chapters on Infidelity and Mid Life crises first and read backwards. Like so many others here, I am living that tough choice to stay committed through these hard times while my H figures himself out. We have been separated a year this month. I found Dbing 5 months ago and it has changed my life and brought OR back from a bad place- there is more understanding, love and friendship though we are still separated!

I really like what you said in the book about trying to find out what �hold� the OP has on the WAS - but how do you do that without asking questions? My H had broken up with long distance OW 3 months ago to recommit to our marriage but then he got cold feet as the withdrawal hit. I stopped OR talks and pursuing a month ago and that is working well, he has started to open up to me lately � told me that they are not together, but still communicating and �close�. He says they have started putting up walls and closing subjects. She is embarrassed about their R- about having been with a married man. Yet she still is open to the fact that this could go either way. They were �together� (physically) again a couple of weeks ago but I don�t think it is really sex that is the threat - he and I have a really strong sexual relationship right now, which pleasantly surprises us both. And he insists that I know him better than anyone still- So how do I figure this out? Or am I trying to control it too much? I feel the balance could swing wither way any given day. I don�t ask H questions about their status or R very often, and am always respectful (which is tough) � I have respected that he needs the freedom to deal with it alone. I�m nervous about changing much right now, because I have been consistent and giving him space which is really working (I think).

Thanks for being out there to show us the way, Michele. You�ve made a big difference in my life!

LeeP

Hi!
This is brief update from my post of 9/5. Ex and I did go out to lunch today and it went very well, and I was able to follow my plan. Everything I listed under how I would know things are progressing, actually happened. He did mention OW a couple of times, but I said nothing and the conversation kept flowing. There were no awkward moments.My plan when we parted was to wait for him to make the next contact and I would just go onliving my life.
Here is the dilema: When I got home there was an email from him stating he had nice time,etc. He then said OW still daily checks in on the Marriage Builders Forum looking for any postings from me and would I please not say anything about our lunch meeting. She found that I was posting on that forum over two yrs ago, and according to him ,looks there every day to see if I have posted.It has caused quite a bit of problems for him. He told me about this several months ago, so I no longer post anything there or respond to any postings there at his request. Obviously he will not be telling her about this lunch. How do I respond to the email, or do I? A 180 for me would be to not answer it at all, but I'm not sure if that is wise. I'm trying to ask myself what can I do next that would bring me closer to my goal, not further away, but I am kind of stumped. I've tried to find a reference point in the book to help with this.

Brenda,

Here's my feedback about your goals.

"Goal 1 - I would like h to contact me more often just to see how I am and not just out of necessity." This is good. It's clear and specific. You need to tell yourself much more often would he ahve to contact you for you to feel he's interested in you?

"Goal 2 - I would like h to begin acting as if we still might have a future together." Needs work. What will he be doing or saying when you feel he thinks you will have a future together?

"Goal 3 - I'd like h to open up communication about us - our future - where he is at, etc." I think you're saying that you want your h to have OR talks and discuss his feelings, right? Clear, but perhaps premature. What will be the first sign he's moving in that direction?

"Goal 4 - I'd like to spend more time with him even if it were just as friends for now."
Good.

"Goal 5 - I would like h to not see ow again."
I certainly can understand why you feel that way but if he's not ready to cut things off completely, it may not happen on your timetable. The best thing for you to do if you haven't already is to read the chapters on infidelity and MLC. It will help you to be patient which is what you'll need to be if you want to save your marriage. Even though three months feels like an eternity to you, you may have to wait longer. Lots of folks here have waited considerably longer. I know, it's the pits, but it may be what you have to do.
Michele

Db,
First of all, I think 10-15% isn't a small chance of reconciliation after divorce, it's huge. And if that's your goal, go for it. I think it's great.

Secondly, you have done a superlative job of refining your goals, even though you say it was tough. Good work. Everyone should read your goals, read the chapter entitled, Know What You Want, and then set their own solution-packed goals. They should use your concrete goals as an example.

I read your later post and I'm not surprised that things went well. You had the whole thing planned out! Good job!

About your question- how would your ex expect you to respond to his request? What would push him away? What would please him but not lose you in the process? That's what you should do. Keep us posted.
Michele

Aly,
I'm glad you're reading a lot and trying to change your approach to your marriage. Good for you.

I understand why you are confused. Many people here talk about the importance of backing off. You're wondering if that would be a 180 for you since coldness and distance was a problem. That's a good question. As I described in Step #5- Experiment and Monitor- you need to approach this as a trial and error process. Try something and watch the results. For now, you should experiment with being attentive and see how he responds. I'm cautious about this, but I think you should give it a shot and see what happens. After that, you'll have your answer about the best way to proceed.
Michele

Reachingout,

Sounds like you have a plan. Your goals are somewhat vague but if you read DB713's goals, you'll see what I mean. Finetune yours a bit.

As to the death in the family. Be supportive and loving. See how she responds. THis may be an opportunity for the two of you to bond. If she recoils, stop. Keep your eyes open. Keep up the good work!
Michele

OM,
The answer here is simple. (Not to be confused with simple to do, just simple to figure out.) If distancing has worked for you, keep distancing. Not allowing her to push your buttons seems to work too. Good job. What self-control. The book will help you feel supported in what you're trying to do here. Keep going.
Michele

Kcee,
I really feel for you. It doesn't help for you to blame yourself for the past. Focus on the present and future. Your description of the breakdown in your marriage is so common.

First of all, would your wife consider trying a new therapist with you for a while? My hope would be that you both would go to a DB therapist. My guess is that she's happy with her therapist. That's unfortunate because it's possible that the therapist is part of the problem here.
Dont', however, push her on this issue. It will backfire. How about attending a marriage class together? Would she consider that?

I agree with you about the importance of being action-oriented in your requests. It's hard to try to please someone unless you know what they need. No one can read minds.

However, she did tell you that it's important to her for you to talk to her and share your feelings. I know that this isn't your favorite thing to do and it probably doesn't come naturally, but I also know that as I describe on page 53, you have to do real giving. Re-read that section. Stretch yourself. Sit down with her, if she's willing, and talk about you. Don't pressure her about your relationship but give her some insight about what makes you tick. Surprise her with your openness, even if you don't feel like it. I don't know her, obviously, so I can't tell whether she would be open to this kind of conversation or if she would feel pressured. You be the judge. But be nice to her and see what happens.

One more thought, would she read a book? If so, ask her to read "Getting Through to the Man you Love." It would be better for her right now that Divorce Remedy. That might be too threatening.
Michele

JJ,
Your post contains within it several positive solutions. You've been doing a great job at figuring this stuff out, haven't you. Here's what you're telling me:
ravishing her works
taking a strong stand and setting boundaries works
offering her an opportunity to help you about non-R issues works
distancing works sometimes

I think you know what you're doing. If you're ever unsure, try something and carefully watch the results, just like I describe in the 5th step- esperiment and monitor. You've got it, keep doing it.
Michele

More tomorrow.
Michele

Michele,

A simple question to get me started.

I've just purchased your book, The Divorce Remedy. I've only read the chapter on Infidelity, since that is of special interest to me. I've also gotten your other two books, Divorce Busting and Fire Your Shrink from the library.

To get the most benefit from your books, should I read Divorce Busting before I read The Divorce Remedy? Considering all three books is there any order in which I should read them? Thanks.

goodfellow

Update:
First, thank you Michelle, for the words of encouragement, not just to me , but to all of us here.
My response to ex's email: After much thought, decided to use the "cheerleader" approach mentioned in your book. I thanked him for lunch and commented the food and conversation was great, and that it was also nice talking about other subjects besides the kids, eventhough that was to be the main focus of our lunch. I did comment that I asked my dance instructor to include some fast dancing in my lesson that I had after lunch, to help wear off the yummy dessert we shared. I then closed email without any mention of comment he made about OW and I didn't comment about any future get togethers. There was a total of 4 sentences and I made it as upbeat and light as I could.
My goal for the weekend is to really look back since the divorce, and see what behaviors I have been displaying that have not helped my cause, and then come up with what I need to change, and how I'm going to implement the changes.

Michele,

I have read the section on affairs. I have come to the conclusion the Om is giving my wife two things in emotional support area.
1. He is listening to her and not solving her problems. I have started this when we are together.
2. He is doing things with her which is giving her his time. Well with going dark this is difficult to do.

Question: Do I continue to ask her to lunch every other week to talk about the boys and keep it light. or is this persueing. Do I let her contact me only. I am not sure which direction to go. Or do I just let this A thing run it's course?

I suspect as she moves from her friends house into her own I will hear more from her. What do you think? I know she is watching me I think to see if I have another woman. I don't understand that, and I don't and will not for a long time after any ending of this.

Can you give me some tips here?

Michele,

Thanks for your prompt reply. You asked a couple of questions that I can answer.

1. New therapist. She is open to this. In fact, as I was getting some new therapist recommendations from a counseler that works at my company's EAP program, he recommended that I read your book, and he gave me some helpful tips on working with my wife at this stage (Dont push things too fast, dont say I love you, dont do too much talk about the relationsip, don't excessively focus on what happened and how we hurt each other, but on what does work, etc.) I've phone interviewed a few therapists that he suggested but no one has appealed to me so far. Some suggested that until my W is ready to work on the marriage, marital counseling wasn't really going to be very effective. Some suggested that at this stage it might be best not to change and have to go through all the preliminary explanations again, rehashing all the bad stuff. I plan on focusing on our current therapists approach the next couple of sessions, now that I know what to look for, and go from there.

2. As far as books, I agree that giving my W "The Divorce Remedy" would not work right now..its premise is just too opposite her current point of view. However, what do you think about me giving her a copy of pp 49-65 of Chapter Two of "The Marriage Remedy"? This includes the Relationship Quiz and the Marriage Map. I would plan on purging the copy of the book and chapter title etc, so that she doesn't immediately reject it based on that, and present it to her as an interesting alternative perspective on our situation, for her to consider if she so chooses. No pressure, just present it as something I found mildly interesting. If it triggers anything positive, great, and if not then I wouldn't think any harm would be done. But, before I do this, I would want your perspective. I found that chapter to very enlightening to me, and it helped to know that it is very possible (not a certainty but a definite possibility)that most of what has happened has been a very predictable outcome of a marriage that was not made a high priority and nurtured, rather than an inevitible outcome of two people with differences, who became more different. Of course, it agreed with my particular bias, so no telling how it will affect my W, given her current bias.

Also, I have a telephone consultation with Arnold in a week, so I really look forward to some more detailed advice.

Thanks again.

Michele, I also wanted to thank you for your time and effort responding to all of us.

I'm still on step 5. I'm unclear as how to interpret last night. After a good dinner W initiated OR talk. I couldn't back away, she asked to sell the house. Said she wants an apartment and to experience single life. Says again that she sees all of my positive changes and they're great but feels guilty because she's not being a good wife. I told her it was too soon (15 days) to judge our current situation (separated, friends, under the same roof). I asked her to wait, we compromised on waiting until Oct. 15 before re-evaluating, but she seemed insincere.

I decided later I would give her the separation NOW because she seems to believe it has to happen. I told her I would leave this weekend and I have to move-on as if it's over. I can't do this again in a year if she doesn't come back. Now she says we should stick to our plan (10/15) and we're not to "that point" yet (separating and selling the house). I said if she doesn't believe her feelings can change then we ARE there. She insisted we aren't and said she believes that her feelings can change. She also talked about her fears "if we stayed together" (as if it's now an option). I told her evaluating her feelings daily will only remind her that she doesn't love me right now and frustrate her more. I asked her to focus on herself and being happy (she's having an identity crisis).

Every time I try and pull away and give her what she's asking she pulls me back. I think one goal is slowly being attained. It seems she's starting to think our marriage is salvageable, but seems frustrated that while other changes in OR have occurred her feelings have not.

What does this sound like to you? It feels like a backslide, but also sounds like a step forward. How should I approach this if she's impatient and actively waiting for a change to happen? Is the 10/15 deadline a bad idea? It seemed like the only way to passify her impatience. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by reachingout (edited 09-08-2001).]

Hi all,
Here are some more reactions and responses from me. They are not necessarily in order of your posts.
Reachingout,

Your post is a great illustration of what I write about- that relationships are like see saws, the more one person does of something, the less the other one does. When you become optimistic- "Let's wait, it's too early to judge our relationship,"- she becomes pessimistic. When you switch gears, she becomes more optimistic. There's no mystery here at all and you, my friend, handled things with DB grace. Good for you.

Now, the trick is for you to remain interested, be the person she wants you to be, but when you discuss things, you should seem reticent to acknowledge improvements. In regards to the deadline, you can tell her you're not sure what you both should do. You need some time to think about it. Then, continue to spend time together when you can and avoid OR talks, be upbeat, the usual. If she comments about something positive, compliments you, you can tell her that it's nice that she recognizes the positive things, but you aren't convinced that she's going to continue to wear the more positive lenses. So thank her, but add on something about your wondering if the "new her" is going to last. Do you see what I mean here.

Don't get hung up in the specifics, just get the main idea. You have to be there DBing in your behavior, but give her reason to wonder if you're thinking about backing off. It seems to make her really nervous if she thinks about losing you. So you have to walk the fine line between being emotionally available but not allowing her to take you for granted. That's the way to proceed.

Go slowly. You definitely took a step forward, not backward. She needs to worry about losing you.
Michele

Dear jtolic,
Your situation is very tough and I hope you have family around to support you. Let him read the Divorce Remedy if he is willing. Don't pressure him to come back. Go to counseling together to work on your "parenting issues." Hopefully, he will realize that the grass isn't greener and that he misses your family. YOu need to be patient and yes, LRT is a good idea.
Michele

Username,
You ask whether you should do LRT or tough love. IT depends on 2 things-
1- which one appeals to you more
2- which would be more out of character for you. Whichever is more different is the one you should do. Have you ever set firm boundaries with her before, even on other subjects? If so, don't do tough love. IF she perceives you as controlling, don't do tough love. If she sees you as dependent and needing her, tough love might work. But LRT might work if she expects you to track her down and pursue her. You decide.

I don't neceesarily agree with your therapist's view that since she's got the upper hand, you have to be strong. When one person wants out, whether we like it or not, they do have a certain power. But you get to choose how you respond. Doing the LRT isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength and being mindful of how your actions trigger responses in others.

So in the end, you're the expert. You decide.
Michele

Distressed,
It may be time for you to test the waters a little and when you're together having a good time, do something romantic and see how he responds. If it is a positive response, keep going, if he balks, back off quickly. Don't have an OR, just do something out of the ordinary and see what happens.
Michele

DB713
Thanks for your kind feedback! I appreciate it a lot.
******************************

Lee,
Look, my friend, you are doing absolutely great. This is really tough. Since you read the chapter on infidelity, I know you read about the importance of being patient. You are doing fantastically as to how you're approaching your marriage and the best advice I have for you right now is to hang in there. If your physical relationship is good right now, this is a strong connection. If giving him space is working, keep giving him space. Don't talk to friends and relatives who don't understand your patience. Pride gets in the way too often. Read what I wrote about the Divorce Trap in chapter one again if you start doubting your plan.

There might come a time in the future when you'll need to adjust your plan, but not now.

Just keep up the great work.
Michele

goodfellow,
Start with The Divorce Remedy.
**************************
DB713-
Great plan. I love your ingenuity!
I also like how you have become a real student of this DB stuff!
***************************
Oldmedic,
What happens when you invite her out to lunch and keep it light? Does that work well?
***************************
kcee-
As to the therapist, I think that it would be great if your wife was seeing a solution-oriented therapist even if the only thing they're discussing is her. I am not sure that her therapist will take too kindly to your suggesting a different approach.
A good therapist wouldn't push working on the marriage is someone is "not ready" to do so.

Giving her a portion of the Divorce Remedy couldn't hurt. Try it out. Good luck!
Michele

quote:
Originally posted by Michele:
IF she perceives you as controlling, don't do tough love. If she sees you as dependent and needing her, tough love might work.

She percieves me as both, so that just makes things more complicated...

I'm not so sure if I agree with her on the controlling part, but I definitely have been acting needy and dependant on her. Like I said, when she returned home I backslid horrendously. Most of the time I was fine, but when I fell I fell hard. So what I'm trying to do now is get her to think I've moved on and that she's losing me. I just have no idea how to do that when I haven't even spoken to her in close to a month. No matter which way I go there are things I need to do first (like clean the apartment and work on our debt) to make myself more appealing. But it's tough when the only clue I have at all as to how she's feeling is an email she wrote to a couple friends of ours. I copied it into another thread and I'll put it here too.

Hi Friend and other friend,

I feel kind of weird writing this, but I hope
you understand. I think UN really needs his
friends right now. See, I've gone through
a lot of changes in the past year, mostly
as a result of going to therapy. I've been
totally reassessing everything in my life,
including my relationship with UN. I know
this hurts him a lot, and I'm not sure he
totally understands where I'm coming from.
He wants me to go to marriage counseling,
but I don't feel I can do that. I feel
like I need to strike out on my own, and
I was starting to feel trapped in my marriage.
I lived with my parents for a while, but
then I came back out here to be "roommates"
with UN. That didn't work so well...he
was very impatient to get back together with
me, but I'm not sure when/if that would happen.
Things got really bad a couple weeks ago,
and now I'm living with my cousin. I really
hate to put UN through this, but I feel that
the relationship is unhealthy for both of us,
at least right now. I'm not sure if it could
ever be right again. We seem to bring out
the bad in each other, and have trouble
understanding where the other is coming from...
this is a little complicated psychologically,
so I won't go into the details here. Suffice
it to say that UN's clinginess and control
issues make it nearly impossible for me to
assert myself, which is something I'm really
struggling to do right now. He thinks if I
leave him, he'll be miserable forever, but
that just makes me want to stay out of guilt
and obligation. I don't think that's
fair.

Anyway, I really don't want you guys to take
sides or anything. If anything, I don't
mind you seeing me as the bad guy...I just
want UN to have the support of his friends.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do, and I'm
not sure how he's handling all this. He tends
to avoid reaching out to people, even when
he could use the emotional support. I think
he's afraid to admit that anything's wrong.
Of course I can understand that.

His birthday is coming up (Sept. 13), and
I'm not sure if I'll be comfortable seeing him.
I don't want him to be alone though. Maybe
you guys could reach out to him a little more
during this time? I would really appreciate
it. For so long I've put the needs of others
ahead of my own, and I'm trying to change that.
I want to figure out what *I* want out of life,
and that might involve leaving UN. I can't
stay with him just because I feel bad for him...
but at the same time, I *do* feel bad for him,
and I hope his friends can help him through this
difficult time. You might not want to tell
him I emailed you, because then he'd think you
were just hanging out with him out of pity
or something. I don't know. I'm so sorry
everything is such a mess...and so embarrassed
too. I'm just trying to get my head on straight
and get my life in order.

I hope you guys are doing okay...

Love,
W

I'm going to wait and see if she actually contacts me at all on my b-day. But it sure isn't easy.

Sorry if this went on too long. I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I thank you for spending so much time without anything from us in return (well, we bought your books, but I've bought lots of books and the authors don't take time out of their day for specific readers.)

Username,
I happened to catch your post and wanted to tell you that without knowing what you would actually do or say with the tough love approach, it's hard for me to give you feedback. So if you can be more specific, that would help.

The best thing that could happen would be if she calls you on your birthday and either you don't respond because "you're out having fun," or you do speak with her and let her know you're doing just fine. She would find that puzzling, wouldn't she?

I see the confusion. I also can tell that her therapist is helping her out of your marriage, something that happens far too often. That's why I wrote a section on how to choose a good therapist. I wish more people would read that before getting help.

Anyway, if you can be more specific about your tough love intentions, maybe I can offer my feedback. And, you're welcome, by the way. Thanks for your feedback.
Michele

(Warning - I sometimes have a problem with being "brief"... maybe if I do a 180 and write shorther posts more people will respond

)

First I feel obligated to defend the therapist. The therapist in question is the same one that's trying to help me save the marriage. It isn't him that's destroying it but rather W's perceptions of what he's doing. He's a LMFT who also does group therapy for SAD (I believe he once had it himself and wants to help others since there aren't a lot of doctors who know much about it). The problem is that one of the main problems for SAD sufferers is that they are afraid to assert themselves out of fear of what other people are thinking of them. One of the goals in the therapy is to teach them that it doesn't matter. The problem is that many times people take it too far. My W is one of those people (looking back she's always had a bit of a selfish side - passive aggressive possibly?). When she eventually gave in and told the therapist about what was happening he recommended that they break off their affair and that we begin counselling together. Needless to say, she wasn't too thrilled with that idea and from that point on, all of a sudden found flaws in his SAD therapy too.

With that out of the way, the tough love approach.... Basically, C has a point in that I have been constantly begging her to come back and that I would do anything to make her happy. Even though I've been impatient, I've also stated that I'd wait as long as necessary because I'd rather wait than lose her (Actually, I'm quite ashamed of a lot of the things I said and did after she got back since they were very un-DB even though I knew better.) The note I would write would be rather similar to the example in Love Must be Tough (p. 72-73). I wouldn't refer to OM too much because I'm not sure if he's out of the picture yet or not. I can't really tell her to leave like in the example letter since she's already gone, but I can say that I've tolerated her indecisiveness for a while now and I think it's time to move on, etc. I'm not sure exactly in which way to be tough though. I can't ask her to move out because she already did. I could push for legal separation but I'm really afraid of that backfiring. It would definitely be a huge 180 and would alter the dynamics of the relationship severely if I push for the D and she resists. But if it doesn't work, I can't go back or I lose all the credibility and respect that I'm trying to gain.

And I was already planning on doing something like that on my birthday, so I'm glad you agree with me on that Even if she doesn't see me on my b-day, I know at the very least she'll send me an e-card (she likes those things). Those things usually will email you and let you know when the recipient picked it up. It would make her wonder if I don't pick it up for a few days (she knows I log on every day). Nothing major, I know, but at least it's something. I think at this point, I want her to contact me on my birthday just so I can turn her down and see what happens. What I really wish was that I had a female friend I could start hanging out with a lot to make my W jealous. She definitely would get jealous of things back when we were happy. Unfortunately the only close female friend I have right now is one that W knows I have no romantic feelings towards whatsover (in fact she's one of the people that W wrote that email to that I copied above).

Michele,

I have only had lunch with her one time. It went very well. We laughed and had a nice time. Messed me up but she and I talked and laughed. Not bad considering this was the day after I called her at her Om house at 0730 am to tell her when I would have the kids back. She did not think I knew until then. Low key dinner. I have been thinking about inviting her out to lunch again but not sure. Yes it worked some but not sure if it was real or not.

Tracy

Thanks Michele.
It is hard to be patient. But I guess I have to try my best. It drives me crazy to have him tell me 4 things and all four contradict each other.
I keep reading all of the different postings on this BB hoping that it will help me in this crazy situation.

Thanks again.

First off, thank you.

Regarding Ch 5. "Stop Going Down Cheeseless Tunnels"

You mention the theory that people will keep trying the same method "because they're more intent on proving to themselves that they're right". I'm not saying this is never the case but I think there may be another reason and it may help WAS's understand why their spouses don't respond to their pleas for change. FEAR!!!

2 Months ago my W declared our marriage over. She has been telling me for a long time that our R was in trouble but I kept doing more of the same. Not because I didn't care but because I cared so much I was scared to death. Even if the solution was being dangled right in front of me I was too afraid to try it. Why do I think this is so?

3 weeks after the bomb dropped I was on a diver certification course. While 25' under water my primary breather quit on me. The result was I was getting water mixed with air. With every breath I would choke to expel the water from my lungs. Scary stuff for a new diver, I was terrified. The thing is, every diver has a secondary breather and all I had to do was switch to that breather. I knew this even as I was choking. Problem was I was still getting some air through the primary and I was afraid to switch. I can't be positive but I think if my primary had quit completely I would have switched immediately. Can you see the comparison?

There's a thread by Nicky called "For spouses of walk aways". People like Nicky have every right to be upset but please try to understand, your S is not trying to kill your relationship. Could be they're just scared to death.

Michele,

I want to say "thank you" again! I've only made it through the introduction of The Divorce Remedy, but am already reaping the rewards of a "refresher course." As you know, I am thrilled to be back in the "tweaking" stage of working on my marriage (a place I would NOT be without the original DB).

Without boring everyone with the minute details, I was feeling rather frustrated this weekend by a "repeat behavior" of my husband - one that he displayed a LOT during his alien abduction a few years ago. I had fallen back into the habit of telling him "I don't like it when you do that." Well after reading just that chapter on Friday night, there's that pesky behaivor on Saturday. Ahhhhhh, but because of the refresher course - instead of nagging him about it, I ignored it, displayed my happy self, and went on with business as usual. In less than 3 minutes, my SWEETIE was back!

Thanks again Michele for a method that works, there are many of us who are proof!

Username,
It's entirely possible that by now, you have already given her a letter. If so, I wonder how it went. If not, one thought I had was that you could, rather than give her an ultimatum, simply say that you will no longer tolerate her indecision and that you are going to move on with your life. Then avoid telling her what to do or what you're going to do specifically. Leave her guessing. Plus, this way, you won't box yourself into a corner.

Obviously, the letter can be longer than that, filled with emotion, but without clear guidelines of what you're going to do next.
Michele

Tracy,
I say go for it. It's hard to know whether it's going to work in the long run, but it seems as if it was a positive experience and it's important to build as many positive experiences as possible. This way, when she evaluates your relationship, she'll have to include that memory.
Michele

jtolic,

Good, be patient. I know you know that. Guess you just have to stick to it.

Pas,
You're absolutely right and your example is wonderful. Don't be surprised if I refer to it in some writing some day! I think it's a great analogy.

So often when I suggest that people do something radically different, they worry that they will make things worse. I have come to expect that. It's normal. It makes perfect sense. That's because your natural problem-solving method is logical and it feels comfortable. You're doing what in theory should work. So, I understand the fear.

I think your comment to waws is right too. Fear stands in the way of making relationships work. It would be wonderful if more WA's understood that your refraining from doing what works isn't out of a lack of caring. Thanks for the reminder.
Michele

Wonder woman,
You're welcome, and what an incredible story you have told us here. It's so great to see DB in action! Thanks for sharing it. It's so hard to keep our mouths closed when we're tempted to say something to our spouses, but when you get results like you did, it's amazingly reinforcing. It helps build our self-control the next time we're confronted with a challenging situation.

Plus, I'm fairly certain that on some level (he might not even have been aware of it) he expected you to respond negatively. When you didn't, he appreciated you. That's why he was so sweet again. Nailing someone every time you're unhappy with his or her behavior is a formula for disaster. I'm so delighted you've figured this out AND you continue to put it into practice. Here's the Divorce Remedy Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval for you!
Michele

Michele,

Thanks for your response. My W has agreed to C because she wants to help the kids and I and she's interested in "why I didn't respond sooner"? I guess this could be a good sign, I don't know. My question is, should I respond with the answer I gave above? I ask only because I have no idea how to respond anymore. She may view it as an excuse or an attempt at trying to control the situation. I intend for it to be neither.

I gave her a copy of DB. She said, "it sounds like she (meaning you) is trying to tell me I'm crazy for doing this". Funny, I read it as "there may be another, better, solution. I kept this opinion to myself.

Hi Michele,

I just wanted to give an update since my last post. I thought we were making progress but W was very distant and rude and her grandfather's funeral. She apologized and somehow convinced herself to be happy. She reiterated how much she liked hanging out with me. I told her that I did like seeing the new, happy, her but wasn't sure if it was going to last.

Yesterday W came home and told me she kissed OM. This is her first effort to move from EA to PA. She cried and said she wanted to love me and wanted to try. I kept up the DBing and she asked how I could be so perfect. I told her we could try and suddenly she wasn't sure if she wanted to. Here we go again on the seesaw. At this point I just decided that I need to take care of myself.

So I've now jumped to LRT. I moved out last night. She asked me not to go, said again that she would try, admitted she hadn't before. I questioned her sincerity. I told her I have to do this for me and I have to move on. I made sure to leave acting like someone she would miss, understanding but firm. She asked if she could call me and watched as I drove away. I'm going dark and just focusing on myself. I don't think we have a chance when W still has feelings for OM and works with him everyday. I feel bad for OM's wife. I hate to think that my W is damaging 2 marriages.

Divorce Remedy has helped me personally in realizing what I have to do for myself. I've created goals for my new single life and the path is much clearer because of them. Thank you.

Reachingout,
Your moving appears to be a good thing on 2 counts. It's taking care of you. And you've rocked her boat. Let her pursue you. Give her a chance to miss you and appreciate you. Give her an opportunity to sweat things out a bit. Don't be reassuring now. You can be kind and loving, but don't give her the impression that you're eager to work on your marriage right now. You need to continue to back off and see if she's going to chase you. IF she wants to be with you, you can, but be tentative rather than reassuring to her.

I know this is a hard time, but her asking you not to go is exactly what you want to have happen.
Michele

New book is wonderful, Already read it twice. Brief story, WAW,EA on the net, PA unknown, details..I have since let go of all the anger started applying the DB principles. W found a place and I helped her move out this weekend. Some of DB principles I have been applying. I have stopped the pursuit. I have focused my love on our D (which she has taken notice of) She tries to bait me to see how I will respond like spending $ at a sex shop on our cc then leaving a toy out where I could find it (our sex life has stunk for the last several months. W also had her tattoo redone but didn't tell me (cc again) When I discovered it I just said it looked real nice. Last week I asked if she needed help moving. She never told me so I planned a trip. When I told her I was going she tried to start a fight because W assumed I was going to help, "I guess since we are getting a D you don't need to help" I refused to take the bait, delayed my trip to help. 3 of us even went to the movie that night. After the movie she said that we all needed to go to Disney world together. I went on my trip, part of my 180/going dark. Never called her. Did get a phone call 2 days later. D was on the phone. W said D had been asking for me. (or was she curious?) W came over later that day to get more of her things. When she left, she sought me out, gave me a big hug and a kiss on the lips (1st time in long while). I see the confusion in her as I remain calm and supportive through out this whole thing. MIL did tell me other day that W had told her she was trying to become an Adult...Are these positive signs?
Thanks again for all the wisdom and help you are providing. C

Michele,

Thank you. That was so obvious yet I somehow completely missed it. I haven't written anything yet. Basically, I was waiting until after my birthday (today) to see if I heard from her at all. Then I was meeting with therapist Saturday morning to discuss what did/didn't happen and figure out what to do. I was still confused, but what you said made perfect sense.

I'm still going to wait a bit before writing anything. I'm way too emotional today. First, all week long I've been hearing people talk about the tragic events of this week and saying something along the lines of letting the people you love know that you love them. I haven't even talked to the person I love more than anything in weeks. Then my birthday comes along, and so far nothing, not even an e-card. I was already feeling more alone than I ever had and I reach into the drawer next to me for something and pull out an old note from W that finally pushed me over the edge and brought me to tears.

I'm sorry, that last "self-pity" paragraph wasn't really appropriate to this thread, but I needed to let it out somewhere...

Doer,
Sounds like you have got the Divorce Remedy steps down pat so far. Good for you. Yes, everything sounds positive. Continue your plan, watch her responses- as you have been- and let us know what happens. You're doing great!
Michele

User,
First of all, happy birthday. Oops, a little late. But happy birthday anyway. Hey listen, it's not self-pity when you feel sad about your marriage being on the rocks. It's normal. Plus, no matter what you wife is feeling at the moment, she could have stepped outside of herself to say happy birthday. I would feel upset too. Don't be hard on yourself about this. Plus, there's extra stress right now. Everyone is feeling what's happening in the world.

But tomorrow is another day and I'm certain you'll be clearer about the steps you're going to take.

I'm glad my suggestion helped. Keep us posted.
Michele

Don't worry, I'm on the left coast so it was still well into my birthday when I read that

She did eventually send me an e-card. That's all though, something very simple and generic. I know we're supposed to look at the things our spouses do for us, but I know the way she usually is, and that was almost nothing. So I typed up a letter tonight, but I'm not going to send it right away. For one thing, I want to think about it a bit first before I send it, and I'd also like to get outside opinions. This is an amalgamation between the letter in the Love Must be Tough book and Brenda's letter in another thread and a bit of my own. In many ways, that thread was also a bit inspirational in getting me to go through with this. I hate to say it, but this has just been wearing me down, and I'm losing my resolve to get back together with her every day, and come one step closer to saying hell with it, I'll find someone who can appreciate me. Between going back to school finally, and working full-time I don't need this added stress.

Dear W,

I don't think I need to tell you about the stuff that happened today (note to self - change that to "this week" just wanted to make sure I remember ). I
don't know if it means World War III, Armageddon, or just a quick decisive
smackdown. But one thing I do know is that it got me thinking. I've heard
many variations of the sentiment, "tell the people you love how you feel
right now while you still can" over the last few days. But unfortunately I
can't. The person I love doesn't want to be with me. That hurt a lot and
re-opened a lot of wounds I thought were healing. I just kept telling
myself that it was only temporary. Then on Thursday my birthday came. All
I received from you was one e-card. No personal message, no phone call, no
efforts to physically be with me. Nothing.
I had a bit of an epiphany at that point. I've thought about the people
I care about and how I treat them and how they treat me in return. I've
thought about who has been there for me when I needed them. I've thought
about how I've tried to accept your affair and your indecision out of fear
of losing you. I've even accepted your unwillingness to even refer to your
affair as an affair. I'm not going to do that anymore. If you want to
leave the marriage, you're welcome to do so. Maybe it will even be for the
best. I'm not even sure if I can ever trust you again or feel the way that
I once did. I know I wasn't a perfect husband, but no other woman has
touched me since I pledged myself to you. But you violated my trust. I'm
no longer special to you. I can't live with that. I'd rather face life
alone. I used to admire
your honesty and trustworthiness. It's very painful when something you
admire about someone ceases to exist. I don't think I can be friends with
you for a good long while, if ever, after the way you've hurt me. I've
tried, but I feel so cheated and so hurt. No one has ever hurt me the way
you have. I've been trying to convince myself that you have a sickness and
to a certain extent you do, but you chose this pathway of your own free will
knowing the consequences and the destruction you would cause. I remember
when you used to get jealous of me talking to other women when I never gave
you any reason to mistrust me. I wonder how you'll deal with someone who
really can't be trusted.
If you think you don't want to be with me any longer, I hope you find
happiness somewhere else. I'm still not sure how something so wonderful and
beautiful became so dirty and ugly, but that is between you and God. We
both have to answer to Him someday, and my conscience is clear.
So what next? I don't know, but I know I can't continue with the way things are. You say you aren't sure what you want?
That isn't very inspiring to me. You pledged eternal love and commitment to
me on our wedding day, but now you've changed your mind. I'm not going to
lie to myself and pretend the hurt is going to go away anytime soon (if
ever). I'm not going to pretend that the Bible can be re-interpreted so
that this is what God wants somehow. But I'm also going to stop pretending
that you'll come back to me. If, in the future, you decide you want to be
my wife, then we'll talk about it and see what happens. I'm doing
everything possible to remove you from my heart, to spare myself more pain.
So far it hasn't been easy. You were my only love, the only one I ever
wanted. This was not the future that I built our life around. But that was
then. Things change. I will still be praying for you very much. I pray
that you can overcome your problems. I pray that God can forgive you for
your sins against me. I pray that God can forgive me for anything I may
have done to lead you to them.

God bless you, W. I will always miss you.

Love,
UN

So what do you think?
I keep thinking that this is the right thing to do, but I'm so scared of actually letting go.

[This message has been edited by UserName (edited 09-14-2001).]

I think it's wonderful with 2 minor exceptions. Don't blame or diagnose her because if you do, that's the only thing she will read in the letter and miss out on the other great stuff you've written. So take out the parts about her being sick or having problems or sinning against you. Then, in my opinion, it couldn't be more perfect.

Michele

Michelle:

A brief update on my situation. Our last counseling session was a good one, in that the therapist worked with us on communication issues (I told her one of the things I needed was to improve my relationship skills) and she recommended a book by John Gottman, Why Marriages Suceed or Fail, which I am reading now. I am more comfortable that the therapist may have more on the ball than I thought.

Now for the bad news. I gave my W a copy of the Loves Illusions and Marriage Map section of the Divorce Remedy, and the article on Spending Time Together. The results...NG (not good). W basically said that while the articles had some useful information, they oversimplified the issues, and did not acknowledge that differences in beliefs and values could possibly be the "real" underlying root causes of our marital distress, and as such, solutions that focus on changing behaviors do not really address the issues.

Oh well. A long and typically circular 3 hour discussion ensued (I should have just said..very interesting and changed the subject, but she seemed intent on drawing me in..so like the good fish I am, I took the bait and ended up flopping around on the deck), leaving us both feeling frustrated. Bad move on my part.

Back to basics. NO MORE discussion of the big R.

Wish me luck, cuz I'm gonna need lots of it.

Well, I was going to wait until after I talk to therapist, but I sent it anyway. I've been getting suspicious that she's back with OM and it's even starting to look like maybe things are going farther (basically, I noticed that a lot more of her things are gone then I thought.... including lingerie and condoms. I still can't match that up with her frame of mind before she left and I'm sure there *could* be some other explanation, but regardless, it's still suspicious.), so I decided I needed to send it. I'm not a strong person and I can only take so much. Maybe it really is time to move on. I don't want to, but what choice do I have?

At what point do you know whether or not your spouse is going to come to their senses?

Michele,
It seems like the book is mainly oriented toward couples that are not separated. I was reading chapter 5 stop going down the sheeseless tunel. How do you apply some of these principles when your spouse is not in the house? Obviously they are not around a whole a lot.
My husband passed the BAR exam. I send him a e-card as a congratulation and we all went out for a dinner to celebrate. Little uncomfy but we did it, his mother and her husband joined us. He also wants me to go to the swearing ceremony with him. I am trying not to read too much into it.
Our counselor said that at first of November my husband and I need to decide as to whether to commit on committing to saving this marriage. Is 5-6 weeks enough to make that decision. She also asked us what would change we both had something to say me = trust = friendship, him = more consistent behavior on my part. I was surprised that he didn't say it is too later she can't do anything, as that is what he has told me.
He hasn't said not to send cards, I have been nice when he comes over, trying to do the caring thing. took our D to his moms house so she can spend the night there with him. They had a lot of fun. Any tips, ideas?
If you can answer some of the questions above. I think I am all over the place in this message. But I have been patient and I am working really hard on not to bring OR talks over the next seeks weeks. I am trying to just set the friendship mood. Maybe in 3 weeks or so I will see whether he wants to go see a movie? ARGH decisions decisions.

thanks.

I agree that the book does seem to be aimed more at couple who are together.

I'm trying to deal with a h who is in MLC, has an ow, we've been separated since Jan., he is supporting me finacially, but we have no contact other than e-mail which is very brief and businesslike. There has been no mention of divorce, just no talk at all.

My question is: in reading your books you talk about 180's, if it isn't working, change, LRT. Yet, when I read your section on MLC, I understand that I should take care of me, and basically leave him alone. Go totally dark. Just wait it out. So is MLC handled totally different than other marital problems? Thanks for this column! I live in a very small town and don't have access to counseling.

Hi Everyone!
With all the tragedy going on I hate to focus too much on myself, but need some input.
Update: Been divorced 4 yrs, ex still lives with OW, but our hatewall is down and we have become casual friends. Have had lunch together several times, with last time being last week. We even had a quick hug goodbye and ex even gave me quick playful pinch on the bottom! Things slowly progressing as hoped..
I have two of my four children in the military. After Tuesday tragedy, one of them got a quick phone call to me. I, of course, emailed my ex and told him and stated I would let him know of any further contact and would hope he would do the same. Ex is career military and knows my feelings, etc about all of this stuff. The next day, I got a very brief impersonal email that basically said he had not heard of either son. That was it.
What did I learn?? That my expectations were way off base! I expected him to call me the night of the tragedy and we would worry together about the boys!! I expected him to act like my husband, and not an ex spouse, who lives with OW and is being comforted by her!. I wanted him to feel that emotional connection that obviously isn't there with me. His reaction caught me totally off guard, and I don't know how to handle his lack of emotional support--this isn't about marriage restoration right now. This is about our two sons probably going to war! I have plenty of friends that can offer emotional support, but its not the same as being with the father of your children at a time like this. I need advice. Do I just come right out and ask for emotional support from him, or just let him go his own way and get through this the best I can without expecting anything from him? With so much other pain and tragedy going on around America, I feel so very selfish asking for advice, but I think the hope of any future reconcilliation is hanging by a thread on the way my ex responds. It just doesn't seem appropriate for me to be setting any goal or formulating a plan right now.

db713, i know this is the place for michele to answer, but i know you're distressed and if it takes a few hours or so for her to answer....what struck me is this is a military guy, and he has been trained for a certain way of responding and this tragedy has probably invoked that kind of response from him. And that may be all he can do at this time.

thank you for the reply. I do not plan on contacting my ex again about this. I have to realize that despite being the father of my children, he still is ex spouse, not current spouse.That is going to be my "plan". My "goal" is for him to reach out to me for emotional support, and that will only be accomplished by him doing it on his own. I have made the "bid" and now will have to wait forany further response to my bid.
I am going to put aside my own personal drama and focus on reaching out and helping others, especially with all the world in chaos right now. There is more going on out there, and "it's not all about me!" My problems seems preety small right now compared to what is going on in our nation.

Pas,
Just a short suggestion. Say to your wife, "i know you won't agree with this and you probably wiil think I'm making excuses, but this is one of the big reasons I didn't do anything different." And then tell her your explanation. In order for her to disagree with you- which she might be prone to do right now- she will have to agree with you. See what I mean.

But, if she argues with you, don't argue back. Just say, "I could see how you'd feel that way."
Michele

kcee,
Here's the obvious advice, no more articles, no more OR's. But you know that already. You say wish you luck? I do, but you'll also need determination and self-control. Okay?
Michele

User,
It's hard to predict if your spouse is going to realize that the grass isn't greener. I wish I had that sort of crystal ball. Only time will tell. Keep following the 7-steps in the mean time and focus on yourself. You'll know eventually how things will turn out. I know this is difficult. It's hard enough to follow through with your plan especially since no one is guaranteed the outcome for which they're hoping. Hang in there.
Michele

jtolic,
Everything in your post sounds very positive- the fact that he wanted to be with you and the things he said in counseling. However, I am gravely concerned that you have a counselor who is giving you deadline about deciding on your commitment to your marriage. NO COUNSELOR HAS THE RIGHT TO DO THAT. IT'S NOT YOUR COUNSELOR'S BUSINESS TO BE TELLING PEOPLE THEY HAVE DEADLINES TO MAKE THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION OF THEIR LIVES. Please either confront your counselor when your spouse isn't present (or there will be a potential backlast) or go to someone else. I, of course would opt for the latter, but I know this might be complicated.

Aside from that, keep up the great work. Be kind, loving, responsive and don't participate in OR talks.
Michele

Graced,
The method of doing a 180 is the overriding method regardless of the kinds of problems you're experiencing. In short, If what you're doing isn't working, you've got to make a switch. Most people experiencing the MLC problem are pursuing at first, so the LRT would be a 180. However, if your primary response has been backing off and you've gotten no reaction, then, true to the do a 180 method, time to switch gears.

Without knowing more, it's hard to advise, but re-read the section on doing a 180 and devise a plan.

Although the book is geared to couples living together, the same principles apply to couples who have separated. Naturally, there are more challenges because when you change, it's difficult for your partner to notice these changes if s/he is not home. However, you have to become more creative in getting your message across about the "new you." Besides that, all the methods apply to both situations. If you or other readers who are separated have specific questions about the application of the methods in Divorce Remedy to their unique situations, feel free to ask.
Michele

DB,
My heart goes out to you and no, you are not being selfish at all. All of us are worried and concerned. You have family in the military. You have reason to be scared and desire comfort especially from the father of your children. It makes perfect sense to me that you reached out in that way. It's so sad that your ex didn't see your contacting him as an opportunity to share your pain. But I do think that sgctxok is right about her take on things. He's trained to be stoic.

I'm glad to hear that you have others to help you through this challenging times. Allow them to comfort you as much as possible. I also agree with your plan to back off for the time being. Take one step at a time.

And one more thing, although this is the place for me to respond, input from others who are reading or who have read The Divorce Remedy is always completely welcomed. Okay?
Michele

Thank you, Michelle.
The best thing for me right now is for everyone to support our military, so my sons,the children and spouses of others, feel the country is behind them, which will help give them the courage and fortitude to do what needs to be done.

Thanks for the reply. To add more information. I was totally blind-sided by h in Jan., he had never even mentioned that he was unhappy, I felt uneasy, knew something wasn't quite right. He confessed to the affair, we went to counselor (who told him he wasn't depressed...)twice, I continued going, he didn't. He met the ow on a hunting trip out of town, she has since moved to a town 30 mi. away and I believe he spends most nights with her, but he has not introduced her to kids or community. He is avoiding conflict at all costs, he runs from friends and his sons because they have confronted him.

In the beginning I tried to convince him to stay for the sake of our kids and because we had invested 30 years together and they were great years.(imho) When I discovered that he bore no resemblence to the man I knew and the things coming out of his mouth made no sense, I wrote a "love must be tough" letter. I wrote several letters that looking back were great dbing tactics. I see him running away from conflict, from the responsiblity of family. I have always been the nurturer so I thought the 180 was to stop pursuing. For me to go dark was a big change, but I see no results. Should I just sit back and watch the MLC progress?

Michele,

I've read your books and they've been great. I'm going into my 11 month of separation. My H is in deep MLC. The one thing that is very confusing to me is the fact that after all these months, he hasn't talked about anything regarding where we are.

I know that I'm not supposed to bring up OR or discussions about the situation, but how long is this feasible. My therapist tells me I have to talk to him and ask him some questions about his feelings after almost a year of separation. I am very confused. I want to sit him down and discuss but I don't want to damage the little I've accomplished. Any suggestions?

Mary

Graced,
Re-read Step 5. What sorts of things have you thought of trying but haven't tried yet?
Michele

Mary,
You say you don't want to damage the little progress you've made. Tell me, what progress have you made since this thing started? Then I'll be better able to advise whether no OR talks is the way to go or not.
You always have to look at the results do know whether what you're doing is working or not. Sometimes things work so slowly, the progress is almost imperceptible. That doesn't mean you're not making headway. So, let's take a closer look here before you do anything.
Michele

Michele,
Thanks for adv.
I thought I would get a chance to speak to W with C. Here's how it went.

1) Set up appt with C for Thur. intending to go on my own. W said she wanted to go to "explain herself". W called Thurs had important meeting can't make it. Not a lie she's busy at work.
2) Called C said I'd come alone. C said no wants W there with me. Told him it was to late nothing he could do (pessimist). C said, "lets try" (optimist). I like him.
3) Fri. sent W e-mail asked if she could schedule appt since my schedule is flexible.
4) Sat asked W if she made appt. W said she didn't get chance.
5) Tues. Still no word from W on appt.

My intentions:
Call C and schedule appt for myself.
Don't even tell W I'm going.
Possibly bring kids at later date.

is familiar with your books and methods. Very pro marriage, makes no promises. All I could hope for.

Well, a bit of an update. First off, I found out through her parents that she's been living with them in Chicago. The weird part is (based on my best guesses) I think the condoms and lingerie would have been taken just before she moved out there which makes no sense. I'm really extremely tempted to ask her about that, and it's so hard not to. But anyway, I got a response to her about that email I sent her. I really don't know how to respond. Needless to say, I disagree with her on a lot of things..

(first, stuff about insurance which I'm not bothering to copy...)
I do need the insurance, but then
again I'm not in CA right now anyway, and I don't know
when I'll be back. I have read your other email, and
I want to respond to it, but I am so confused as to
what to say. I actually hadn't read any of your emails
for a long time, because I was afraid you were mad at
me (note - I'm not sure how long she's been talking about since I've been going dark for a while now), and I finally read them all last night. I'm really
sorry about everything...I don't know how something
good could turn ugly either...when we first met, it
seemed like the right thing to do to be in a relationship,
but now it just doesn't feel right anymore. I'm going
through so many internal changes, and I really do feel
that I need the space to grow as an individual. Maybe
I shouldn't even be married, or in a relationship right
now for that matter. I don't want you to keep wondering
if I'll come back to you, because what if I never come
back. And it's been hard for me just knowing that you're
waiting for me, because it makes me feel tied down.
You're a special person, and I really do want you to be
happy, but maybe I'm not capable of giving you the
happiness you deserve. I want you to be free to find
someone who will, or even just to find happiness within
yourself. In the beginning everything seemed right,
and we had a lot of fun together...but now that the
infatuation has worn off, the deeper issues are coming
out, and I'm starting to express more of my true
personality rather than having it masked by the SAD,
it seems to me that we don't see eye to eye on a lot
of things. I don't want to get into who's right or
who's wrong, and maybe there is no right or wrong,
but I do need to express my own opinions and viewpoints,
and make my own decisions about what I want in life.
You may have ideas about what you think is best for
me, but I think I know myself better than anyone except
God, and I hope that you can accept and respect my
decisions. I am really sorry everything is such a
mess. I didn't intend for it to be this way. Maybe
I got married too soon, maybe I wasn't ready...I
thought it was what I wanted, and I was planning on
having it last forever...I guess I just never imagined
that I would want anything different. All the changes
I've gone through this year have made me reassess myself
a lot.

I guess I'm just starting to ramble now. What I'm
trying to say is, I really do care about you and
want you to be happy. I hate that things are so
messed up, because I just want to be happy. I think
maybe we both need the freedom to make our own way in
life...we jumped into a relationship so fast, we barely
had time to just get to know each other as friends.
I regret that now. I hope that we can still be friends
in the future, and I think that whatever's meant to
happen will happen. But I don't think my life can
move forward at this point until I have the freedom
to make my own way, with no ties to anyone. I hope
you can understand that.

I might have more to say later, but right now I have
to shower and eat and stuff.

--g

There are so many things I want to say in response to that, but I don't know what will make things worse, and what will help. This has been going on for way too long and it's tearing me up inside and I really don't know how much more I can take before I completely crack. Should I maybe start pusing for divorce and she how she responds? I feel incredibly alone right now. I've found friends and other things to occupy my time, but I still feel like a huge part of me has been torn away. I'm so confused....

Michele,

The progress I've made in 11 months is basically that we have better communications, he's been hagging around the house a lot more, he includes me in outings with the kids which he had not, he's more relaxed around me, he has slipped and talked about "we" or future things.

He told his mom about a month ago that he was very in love with me (which is not what he said to me back last Oct.), and he mentioned to a friend of mine about 2 weeks ago that we had not divorced but were working on reconcilling (news to me because he hasn't said anything to me).

I don't know if any of this is progress but for someone who wanted a D last October and he has done nothing as of this day, I see it as progress. I just don't know if it's time to test the waters and find out where we stand. Whether or not we stand a chance. He may not even know the answer.

Mary

Hi Everyone:
Michelle, sorry to be back so soon, but need advice
I had decided to back off communicating with ex husband after his last email that you and I discussed in earlier post. Anyway, on another forum there are other military spouses, young ones, who are very fightened about world events, and as a carreer military spouse, I knew I could be supportive to them and felt it was something positive I could do and decided to post to them. THe OW in my situation has been lurking on that site going on almost 4 yrs now, and ex has asked me not to post on there. I agreed to not post anything about him and me on there, which I had been complying with.It seems she checks everyday to see if I post, and has confronted him several times.
I emailed him this am and explained the situation and stated I posted there over the weekend,butit was nothing that should be a problem for him. I also took the opportunity to tell him that I also was afraid about the current situation and the possible involvment of our sons who are both in the service. I told him it seems we can go out to lunch and talk about trivial things but when it comes to making an emotional connection, there is a wall that seems to go up when anything personal is brought up. I then closed by saying , if he was concerned about the boys, and wanted to talk he knew where I was. I tried to make it fairly light, non judgmental, and not like I was pursuing.
I got an email back right before he left work tonight stating," I will try and respond more tomorrow,because things have been really hectic here. Post whatever you need to, but please DO NOT mention the lunches or phone conversations we have had the last few months."
It seems from the response I got, he is more concerned about any reaction from OW, than he is about giving any emotional comfort to me, or having any major worries about his sons and expressing it to me.He seems to be more honest with me than he is with OW. I am going to wait for whatever further response he decides to send, but am at the point where I am ready to totally bow out. It seems his loyalty is with her from the response I received tonight. Concern about the boys seemed second. Anywords of wisdom?

Just as an addendum to my earlier post... I took out the insurance stuff, but looking back at that email it actually is kinda relevant with the way things are phrased, so here it is.

>I need to know ASAP if you want to be on my insurance which I have to
>sign up for this week. If you plan on filing the divorce papers anytime
>soon, then we probably shouldn't bother with the insurance since I'd have
>to
>take you off right away. Actually, I might not be able to take you off
>until after everything is finalized anyway, which wouldn't be for six
>months
>so maybe I should put you on anyway. But, to be honest, I don't want the
>extra money taken out of my paycheck every other week if we're going
>through
>with a divorce anyway. On the other hand, if you actually do plan on
>giving
>things another shot and I agree to it, I'll put you on. I dunno, just let
>me know what you want. If nothing else, I can put you on until the divorce
>is final and you can just pay me the extra $40 every other week.

I still have to talk to my parents about this. I don't
really have the money right now to pay you $40 every two
weeks, but maybe they would be able to help me out.
I got a job with my cousins working on
their website, but I just started yesterday so I don't
know just how many hours I'll generally work or how
much money I'll make. I do need the insurance, but then
again I'm not in CA right now anyway, and I don't know

I'm feeling stuck, and so is W (her word). W has expressed some very reluctant interest in moving ahead, but is still seems totally under influence of PA and divorced friends who what her "to be happy". Her exact expression (it's been repeated a few times) is that she "holds very little hope" for us working out our marriage, but that's up a tiny notch from "there's no hope".

I feel stuck between LRT and the space just beyond where you begin encouraging more interaction. The dim dusk of LRT has not really worked, but some subtle pursuit seems to. She seems to respond my frustration at her not letting me know what she's thinking, like when she said she'd hired a lawyer and to expect a letter from him directing me to do the same. My exasperation at this nudged us into OR talks that have made slight progress. It seems the past lack of OR talks has been interpreted by her as ceasation of any progress, and proof that things wouldn't/couldn't work. LRT says no "dating", but informal "dating" gets us talking (not OR), and being together and close. Arnold has been encouraging that with me. Another example, she moved out of our bed, before which time it was getting to the point that she would really slink away to her side with no contact at all. Now, sometimes I go crawl into her bed just for closeness from time to time, and she reaches out and we hold hands, or drape arms over each other. I don't stay all night, I don't pressure. I'm trying to interpret whether this is "good" physical affection, or if it's "bad" pity. If I appear pitiful, that can't be good, if she feels guilty it's not either. How do you read these things?

Secondly, she's expressed interest in "working some of the exercises" in the book. I think she might just be humoring me, pending filing and starting her "end game". I need to know how to present concepts to her without necessarily giving her the book. Sections like "the beginner's mind" and "Know what you want" I want to present to her, and I want her to understand "cheeseless tunnels" and "taking stock". Other areas I'd like her to see are MidLife crisis and Infidelity, but we are still a long way from those. I need some advice about how to encourage her to set some measurable goals. Last night I asked her "what she wanted", and she said "to be divorced". I said that's not a goal, that I needed to hear something more. She said "to change partners". I suppose that's a goal, but kind of undefinable and unmeasurable. I need to know how to coach her into simple, measurable, attainable goals. Help?

Sorry for the lenght, and it this is vague. I'm re-reading again, and will have more specific things soon.

Thanks.
z

Michele,

My wife has been receptive to talking with me and I have helped her move into her new duplex. She is genuine with me she is playful and we laugh. We have had better union in issue with our children better then ever before. I have a true PMA today and she seems to enjoy my company. I do not over stay my welcome.

Question here. It feels to me like we are in a courting situation again. Which is something I really like because I am having feelings toward her I have not had in many years but am concerned it is one sided. I have to rain my heart back here. She is playful and laughs and talks with me. Nothing about OR talk but about WTC, kids, a little of her thesis stuff. Seems like she is slowly telling me more about her life each time. Am I on the right track here and do I keep pulling back at times having her call me then respond and continue this process.

Tracy

Michele,

My W and went to C yesterday. I think I made a mistake. He diagnosed her as co-dependant and said she was doing the right thing. When I went to get the car he reconfirmed this with her and said he would tell me so next time we met.

Also,
I got my W papers the other day. She wants a lot including the kids. She has a house she's buying and my att wants me to get an order to stop her from taking them out of our home until an agreement is reached. He also recommended that I take 1/2 of our savings and move it to a separate account. She was really mad.

I'm very scared. I love my family but my W stated during C that she didn't even like me anymore. I read your book over and over but there doesn't seem to be a section on what to do when your facing loosing your children, savings, retirement, . . . .

Does this mean it's over? Do I risk it all to find out there was no hope? It slipped out in C that she knew in March but didn't tell me until July.

Michele,
I've done a lot of thinking since your reply. I reread step 5 and I think that I am probably on the right path. I have steadily worked on who I am, strengthened my faith by going to church, studying. I just found out that I have been accepted for the job I wanted, classroom assistant for Headstart, working with 3 yr old kids. My relationship with my kids has gotten so much closer, stronger. If my h cannot respond or deal with my sons then I know he can't with me. I need to stay on my path of growth and allow him the same choice. Easy to say right now and I'm sure I'll have more of those twists of indecision and pain, but for now this is where I need to be. Thanks for your input, it helps.

RE book Getting through to the man you love. Is this a book for women/wifes that have had affairs and are wanting out of the relationship/marriage or is it geared for women as the betrayed spouse when their husbands think they are wanting out. I would like a book recommendation for my husband who is MLC and PA. He said he want to work on marriage but hasn't been really doing any "work." Baby steps, I know.

Thanks

Have finished reading the book.

Posted something here a couple of days ago.

Now it's gone?

In the chapter about affairs you mention that most affairs end in 6 months. I've seen this same statistic mentioned in the book Surviving An Affair by Harley. I have a couple of questions about this.

1) Where does this statistic come from?

2) By most do you mean simply 51% and that maybe 49% can last years, or is most an average?

Thanks!

SBT

Graced.
I like your plan. You're right, it won't always be easy to stick to it, but nothing is easy all the time. You'll do great.
Michele

Pas,
Of course, things look bleak right now. If you are going to continue to fight for your marriage despite the legal proceedings, you need to try to balance protecting yourself and your children- your att should help with this- and continually assessing how what you're doing will effect her. Usually, this goals are at cross-purposes so it makes things tricky. I wrote about this in the section about the legal system.

I know it's devastating when you're faced with losing everything that's important to you. It's not clear to me why she's willing to continue to go for counseling. What does she say about this? What's the goal?

Don't lose heart. You'll find your way. Keep posting here and DBing.

Michele

User,
Boy, she sounds confused. But, for that matter, so do you? Are you still fighting for your marriage, or are you ready to throw in the towel? Your goal dictates what you need to do next.

In any case, I think without a whole lot of explanation, you can tell her that you want to be included on her insurance. That would be the safe thing to do.

Michele

Distressed,
Yes, of course, this is tremendous progress! It sounds good to me. Lots of people here would certainly tell you the same thing!

Is there a way you could test the waters without coming right out and asking him his feelings about the future? What else have you thought of?
Michele

DB713,
Yes, He seems quite concerned about the OW. Has he written you again as promised?

His unwillingness to focus on your sons or the situation may not have anything to do with his lack of feeling for you. Some people have a hard time dealing with tough emotional issues. Your ex might be one of them. In the meantime though, don't sit around waiting for him to be more expressive. Keep moving on with things. If he comes around, you'll know it, but I'd hate to think that you're stopping your life in the hopes that he'll be more attentive. Don't do that! You've got a bigger job to do now. Focus on that for a while.

Keep posting on this board too. We're with you.
Michele

Zebra,
If gentle nudging works, nudge gently! It's difficult to know if she's kind out of interest in improving your marriage or not, but for now, it doesn't matter. Give her the opportunity to be kind to you regardless of her intentions. If she's going to go through with the divorce in the end, you still haven't lost anything, have you?

Rather than set goals with her as outlined in the book, ask her what I suggest couples ask each other in my seminars- the miracle question. "IF you went to sleep tonight and a miracle happened so that your problems and bad feelings about the marriage disappeared in your sleep, and you woke up tomorrow morning, how would you know watching yourself and me that the miracle had happened in your sleep? What would you/I/we be doing or saying to each other? How would or kids know (if you have them) by watching us that the miracle had happened last night.

If she's not interested in talking about it, drop it. Don't worry about her reading the book. IF you push the issue, it will backfire. If she wants to work on the marriage, she can always read it at a later date.

Good luck.
Michele

Tracey,
You are definitely on the right track. Be there, be genuine, love her and let her pursue you sometimes. And above all, be patient. Okay?
Michele

BMT,
Getting through to the Man You Love is for women who want to improve their marriages and have felt frustated because little they have done seems to work.

If your husband hasn't been doing much, don't press the issue. Change you. Read Getting Through... or The Divorce Remedy.
Michele

SBT
To be honest, I don't know the original source of stat. However, it's been around for a long time. Sorry.

And to your second question...it seems as if you're looking for reassurances that, in the end, there's something worth fighting for. There are no reassurances. Plus, if I told you that 99% of marriages end, would you place yourself in that group and give up, or would you think you could be in the 1% that makes it? If it were me and I wanted my marriage to last, I think it would be the latter. At least, it would for as long as I had energy to fight.

Just a thought..
Michele

Canadian,
Sorry, in the move, a few things got lost. I apologize, couldn't be helped.
Michele

Not at all what I was thinking of in the second question, but thanks for your insight.

SBT

Michele,

Hard weekend. She came and got all of her stuff and moved it into her duplex. Harder then I expected for me. Did not take a lot but certainly feels empty. Took 1 item to her last night knowing OM was there because I wanted to see him. He walked in with her, I handed her a jewlry chest I got her before and stuck out my hand and introduced myself. Said Hi I am Tracy you must be David. He said no and walked out. It was him, I can plates with some friends. Today she is nice as I picked up my medications from. Helped carry in some new items. She asked if I would put them together. I told her I had plans as I did, I needed to study. Feels like she wants her cake and eat it to. She says OM is just a good friend. One that she spends weekends with, called for months, and did not tell me about.

Ok what do I do here. It is killing me. I do not want to get used or be foolish. She is genuine but is it a game to play me? Suggestions would be helpful.

Tracy

Hi Everyone:
Thanks Michelle for the input written earlier today.
Here is latest update. Ex did send reply. Briefly mentioned one of our sons he heard from 6 days ago. Stated he tried to call me ,but did not want to leave voicemail or email!!
Now on to latest about him and OW. It seems they have been going to counseling for quite awhile-separately for sure, but I'm not sure if they attend jointly. According to ex, OW is jealous of me, and feels very insecure and feels like he is "cheating" on her, if he associates with me, or at least that is what the counselor tells him. That is the reason he doesn't want her knowing about talking to me or having any lunch with me, because it causes turmoil at the home front. He said he is becoming tired of it, but right now is "dealing with it." Also, seems their sex life is not at all going well. OW has old history of breast cancer from which she is recovered, but side effects from the medication have severely diminished her sex drive! Of course he told me to please not repeat any of this on other forum!! That was the highlights of the note he emailed me. The last sentence being that he really wants to remain friends despite "this bump in the road". Also commented earlier in note that during our 29 yr marriage, he considered us good friends, partners, lovers, and so much more.
I am really at a crossroads here. I don't know if I want to continue with a "friendship". I sent my ex an email thanking him for responding to my email, but that I need some time to think about whether it is possible to continue a friendship, especially if it is causing OW so much turmoil. I am not comfortable with this situation. Again, I will wait for response.
I do keep busy and am not just sitting around waiting to hear from him, although sometimes it sounds like it.Thanks for the concern.
As usual, any advice will be appreciated. My goal right now is to distance myself from this situation for awhile.

Michele,
"Getting Through to the Man You Love" is my favorite of all your books.(I read it when it was "A Woman's Guide..." I don't think it gets enough publicity! I think it's the best book around for explaining the differences in Men/women thinking and communication skills. I think you ought to do a forum on this book sometime.

rayanne

I think you may have misread that. The stuff with the > behind it was me asking her if she wanted to be on my insurance that I have to sign up for. I asked it that way mostly to see how she replied. It's all pretty much a moot point right now anyway. She emailed me today saying that she basically doesn't think it will work and that "her relationship with me is holding her back from becoming all that she needs to become" or somesuch crap

. I'm not going to bother cut and pasting that one because it's all the usual stuff you've heard 1239870234096 times before. She says how I was such a wonderful guy and always made her feel special, yet somehow we bring out the worst in each other.

She says how she cares for me and doesn't want me to be hurt but then goes and hurts me. I don't get it.

And my response was very un-DB, because right now I don't care. If this is the "real her" like she says in her email, then I don't want any part of it. Actually, in some ways maybe it's not such a bad response. For one thing "letting her have it" is a big 180. And it can't hurt to hit her with a big dose of reality that might possibly knock her out of the fantasy world she's been living in. And I did tell her that I highly doubt we could be friends after the way she's hurt me. That was one thing she was always afraid of that if she ever left me she would also lose her best friend. Now she has. In reality I probably did more harm than good and I'm probably just justifying my negative behavior the same way that she has been and I've been pissed at her for doing so. But maybe not. Now the only thing left for me to do is go completely dark. 100% dark. Dark to the point where she's going to wonder if I killed myself in despair (now that would be interesting to see....) And if nothing changes, oh well. It's her loss. After all, in her own words "I always thought you were a cool, funny guy. You have a good sense of humor, good taste in music, you're *very* creative, and very sensitive. You're
also a very devoted boyfriend/fiance/husband. You always made me feel special. You made me feel more special than Chris, James, or Sean ever did. The guys I dated before you all ended up being pretty jerky, or unappreciative of me. You were very devoted, and I appreciate that very much." (Why would anyone give up someone that you can describe in that way? I just don't get it

)
Now I should probably get to sleep. I need to wake up in a few hours because I'm going out all day tomorrow, but I can't seem to get to sleep. Gee, I wonder why. Not like she cares....

Anybody in the market for a slighty used, bitter, depressed 25-year old soon-to-be-divorcee?

Michele:

I think the Q&A is a great idea! I'm one that needs specific examples in order to get something out of a high level statement, so I'm very interested in what goes on in this board.

Like another, my H has accused me of being cold and hard and having an edge that is not soft and nurturing to him. The problem is, I have been told that I am one of the nicest, caring people around by many others. I have total strangers spilling their guts to me after just a few days of knowing me. I do not know how to be any softer.

Currently, I am doing a LRT. H has stated that he is definitely NOT interested in me, our relationship, or saving anything remotely connected to our marriage. He does, however, want us to be best friends. I am to tell him all of my comings and goings, allow him over in my home whenever and for all holidays, give him free access to our S at any time. He, on the other hand, will talk about his work only, not invite me to any events that he has planned, and basically contribute to "friendship" in only a superficial way. This is how he is with all his friends (of which there are two).

I do not know how to reconcile my LRT of going dark and being unavailable with his need to have me around as a type of social crutch.

I'm open to any ideas. I have been supportive and loving and friendly for the last 2 years. During that time, he moved us to a different state for his work, moved out, had an A, and I don't know what else. His rejecting me has been on all levels: I'm unattractive, I'm not for him, I'm hard, I use an annoying voice when telling stories, I just don't measure up.

We are miles from where we started. He actually talks to me now, where in the past he wouldn't give me the time of day. But in exchange, my own self-esteem has dropped so low that I am on the verge of dispair.

How do I save myself AND be soft and comforting without being an emotional doormat?

Any help is appreicated.

Michele,

I’m not sure what her goal is. She went that night because she was so mad I was able to convince her we needed a Ref so that we could communicate. She is very tactful and may be planning to move our C’s to another house that she has purchased. In the mean time she remains nice to me to throw me off. Either that or she’s seriously conflicted. Yesterday she changed the sheets in my bed. Today she made it for me. I feel like a yo-yo.

Please warn your readers. When you look for a C make sure to ask if they’ve ever been D. I can’t believe this guy told her she was doing the right thing after just one session. Do you ever do that to win over someone’s confidence? Kind of like telling them what they want to hear. She did leave there saying she liked him. I think I did score one point. I asked if our situation was hopeless. He responded, “Not if you both wanted to work on it”.

No, I didn’t ask.

Michele,
Your book is in Barnes & Noble where I work and I read it as soon as it got there. I realize now that there really isn't anything that I can do in my situation. I am D and have been for 6 months. Bomb May 00 D March 01. OW was EA from the internet. Major issues with S for about 5 years, job problems, separations due to Navy service and kids in high school. Gave NO indication he was unhappy in our marriage. Refused to work on it because he had been for a long time. Gives me the standard love you not in love, grown apart etc... Only contact now is email about money issues. XH is furious about the settlement of the D. Wanted me to settle and it ended up in court. He really lost big time. He is still not employed after retiring from military after 22 years in July, is having physical problems, BIG TIME Classic Text Book MLC and is living with OW who is so controlling that she is even writing his emails for him. She pays all of the bills. Has convinced him what he has done is the right thing and is trying to win over our 18 and 20 YO kids.

Is there anything you can think of to do except act as if and go on with my life? I still love this guy but I have no respect for the person he has become. He has little to no self respect and justifies that his life is crap because of me. Not because of his actions. Of course he is throughly happy with OW just can't do what he wants to do because of me. Has little contact with family even his kids. No reason to call except S is home and he emails so he doesn't take the chance of talking to me. Is trying to get kids to accept OW and has brought her to every time he has been with them since the D except 1 and he kept that one short. Now wants them to come to Tampa (where he moved)for Xmas so they can get to know her entire family and that is a problem for me.

I understand the DR principles and have use DBing since January 01 when I found this site and read the book. It just did not help because he had his mind made up that he wanted out to pursue this new relationship. I was his only partner and we met at 15 and married at 17 when he went into the Navy. He really is the total oposite of the person I married.

Carol

OK Michelle, I've read Divorce Busting twice and used it as a reference many times, and I've read The Divorce Remedy once and used it as a reference as well. I feel totally stuck right now.

After several months of living apart in the same house with H totally ignoring me most of the time, continuing his A with OW, going AWOL from home, H spending no time with S, etc., and DB techniques I had used for months hadn't worked, I did an LRT. My attorney wrote H a letter and told him although it is not W's (my) desire for the marriage to end, W can't continue to live in the present circumstances. Letter asked H to be out of the house by a certain date at a certain time. If H didn't move, W (me) would file for divorce. Long story short, H moved out.

We've now been separated for 3 weeks. No OR talks, not much initiated by me. This all after almost 26 years of marriage.

I don't see any progress being made in either direction (divorce or him coming back). Now that the tension is gone at home (since he moved out) I am moving on with my life and I can honestly say I will be happy with whatever happens (with or without him). But I'm not happy in stuck mode. Perhaps 3 weeks isn't long enough to see any progress. We have separation agreement that lasts until Nov. 2, and will be 2 months separated at that time.

Any advice about steps I should be taking? When we talk on the phone occasionally (he calls) I keep it light and friendly. But when he comes by in person for any reason, I don't handle it well. I tend to ask him too many questions which he sees as badgering, I'm sure, but I can't seem to bite my tongue yet when he's there in person. On the phone I have no problem.

Michele,
It has been about a week now since we have had our baby. He has been around some but due to very bad work hours he is not able to come over in the evenings. He noted his disatisfaction with that situation (hours 11pm - 7pm).
I have been toying with the idea of asking him to come over and spend couple of nights to help out. At the same time I have said to myself I will not do that. Even though I WANT HIM BACK HERE I don't want to be the one asking him to move back in and I am affraid he would look at it that way.
Any ideas? We are very friendly towards each other, no OR talks in two weeks now. Once headed there and I stopped it. (posting under newcomers 'he is out so what now').
Any ideas?

Michele,

Thank for your input. I have hit a wall right now. I have no idea how to test the waters without actually asking him straight out.

Do you have any suggestions? I'm open to anything.

Mary

Michele,

Had OR talk sunday with wife about what she was wanting. Short of it is that she does not know herself, can not give me the love I want, and admission of OM as a good friend and EA and denies PA but agrees if roles were reversed she would believe the same. I told her go find herself, I am distancing myself for me, that we should keep our conversation and interaction to our kids, that I love her, want her as my wife and if and when she ever wants to try a new relationship with me and if I am available I would be receptive to that.

Yesterday I was talking with my youngest son who has openned up to me (he is 7)and I am letting him express his feelings. I empathize with him, tell it is normal and the reassure him that both I and his mom love him and are there for him. She was made because he is emotional with me after we talk, I told her not to blame me. That this is a result and natural reaction of children in divorce. That I am not the one that made this decission there for sole respoonsibility of this lies with her not me. I am trying to help our son. Asked her to let me talk with Brett. I talked with him and got him laughing and reassured him and plan on having lunch with him today.

Ok a lot here. I am very angry at her. Betrayed by her and she is being nice and listening to me but I doubt it is going change her mind. I am concerned with my sons at this point. OM she admits to be close to.

Any advice with her or my kids?

Michele,
My D told me the other day about OM. I told my D that I was having a BBQ and inviting some friends. She asked if W could invite friend from work. Said he was going to take them to the park and W talks about him a lot.

Should I confront her about this? We still live in the same house. We're still M.

Michelle,

A brief update on my situation. Our therapist seems now to be more focused on solutions and issues...a good thing I think. In our last therapy session, W said that, while she knew before we were married that I wasn't "an intensely emotional, passionately romantic" man (while I am not a cold fish, and I have my passionate and romantic moments, I would never describe myself as a passionate romantic), and in fact it was my emotional stability and practical nature that attracted her to me, she says that she now (13 years later) realizes that she really wants and needs an emotionally intense passionately romantic marriage. And while she agrees I could be more passionate and more romantic, it just won't be enough (she seems to think she is judge and jury when it comes to me, and I guess from her perspective she is). In the session, I asked her for some examples of how her life would be different, what different things she would be doing that would give her the "feelings" she feels are missing. She responded with more vague terms like, she would feel comfortable and would have more enjoyment and more fun and there would be more passion. When I asked her for more specific examples of what she would be doing that was different than what she and we can do now, she got mad. The counseler said that my questions were valid, as we are trying to get to the bottom of W's strong assertion that we are not compatible, and we need to see clearly if there is common ground or not. The counseler gave W a homework assignment to provide specific examples of what she would be doing and how her life would be different if she had the emotionally intense and passionately romantic relationship she says she now wants and needs. This really made W annoyed.

My question is as follows: to the extent that the counseler now seems to be pushing W to be specific as to her issues, and no longer seems satisfied with W's vague statements and circular logic ("I can't be intimate and emotionally close to you because I'm not in love with you, and I don't feel romantic love for you because I don't feel emotionally close or intimate with you"), will this have the same affect of pushing W away, as it would if I were pushing her to be more concrete in her descriptions of her feelings, or questioning the basis of these feelings.

Is the counselers new approach a good thing or a bad thing?..it feels right to me, but I'm afraid that it will have an adverse impact on my WAW.

[ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: kcee ]

quote:
Originally posted by Jen:
OK Michelle, I've read Divorce Busting twice and used it as a reference many times, and I've read The Divorce Remedy once and used it as a reference as well. I feel totally stuck right now.
After several months of living apart in the same house with H totally ignoring me most of the time, continuing his A with OW, going AWOL from home, H spending no time with S, etc., and DB techniques I had used for months hadn't worked, I did an LRT. My attorney wrote H a letter and told him although it is not W's (my) desire for the marriage to end, W can't continue to live in the present circumstances. Letter asked H to be out of the house by a certain date at a certain time. If H didn't move, W (me) would file for divorce. Long story short, H moved out.
We've now been separated for 3 weeks. No OR talks, not much initiated by me. This all after almost 26 years of marriage.
I don't see any progress being made in either direction (divorce or him coming back). Now that the tension is gone at home (since he moved out) I am moving on with my life and I can honestly say I will be happy with whatever happens (with or without him). But I'm not happy in stuck mode. Perhaps 3 weeks isn't long enough to see any progress. We have separation agreement that lasts until Nov. 2, and will be 2 months separated at that time.
Any advice about steps I should be taking? When we talk on the phone occasionally (he calls) I keep it light and friendly. But when he comes by in person for any reason, I don't handle it well. I tend to ask him too many questions which he sees as badgering, I'm sure, but I can't seem to bite my tongue yet when he's there in person. On the phone I have no problem.

Michelle: I didn't know since you started a new thread for your book club if you were still planning to go back and pick up unanswered questions from the first one. Therefore, I have quoted my entire question from the first threat originally posted Sept. 24.

Thanks.

Oldmedic,
You have asked for advice in general, but it would really help if you had a specific question. I realize you're having a hard time right now, and anyone in your shoes would be, but it's hard for me to comment on it all. What, specifically, would you like to ask me?
Michele

Db,
It's interesting. You ask for advice, but your last sentence indicates that you know exactly what you want to do- distance. Then go for it. I believe you do know what you need to do next. Pull back for a while and see what happens. IF he really values your "friendship", he'll notice you're missing and you'll see if he sticks his neck out to find you.

Like you, I sense trouble in his relationship. Just don't burn bridges behind you and wait to see what happens. Time will tell. Be patient and fill your life with good things.

Michele

Rayanne,
I love that book too! It was the most fun to write. It should have gotten more publicity, that's for sure. The Germans love it, I've been in every magazine and newspaper. Funny, isn't it? THanks for your feedback.
Michele

Dear Username,
Don't worry about letting her have it, especially since it was genuine and at the same time, a good 180. Now it will be interesting to see how she responds. Has she responded yet? How are you doing?
Michele

Crisch,
First of all, have you read the book? I know you read DB, but have you read The Divorce Remedy.

To answer your questions, you need to be more specific about the things he's asking you to do, what you've done recently, and how things have worked. Then it will be easier to see what might be considered a "do something different." Remember, respond in action-oriented terms.
Michele

Pas,
I never tell people that they're doing the right thing by getting a divorce. I also wonder whether your wife twisted what she heard from the counselor to suit her own needs. Who knows?

Also, I would definitely confront your wife about the situation. Tell her if she's going to see OM, that's one thing, but since you're married, it gives a terrible message to your d. She how she responds.
Michele

navywife,
I think you're absolutely right about acting as if. Right now he's really into blaming you and nothing you can say or do will make a big difference. Hopefully, time will clear his thinking and if you aren't rude or antagonistic, he might be open to reconnecting with you in some way.

I know this must be devastating to you, but you can at least tell yourself that you are wise enough and have good enough values and morals to have fought for your marriage. Continue to take the high road. Make your life as rich as possible. Who knows what the future brings? Rebuild your strength and sense of self. And remember, despite your sadness, this is his loss.
Michele

Jen,
You're right when you say a few weeks is too short to notice a difference. You are going to have to wait whether you want to or not! You are going to have to be patient. Read the part about the importance of patience again and again.

Also, I find it interesting that you don't "badger" him on the phone but find it harder in person. Since I know you can control yourself over the phone, I know you can control yourself in person. You have to if you want to show him that you've changed. And you do. Try not being there when he comes over. Try being upbeat. Be mysterious. Re-read the LRT. Then follow it exactly. Don't give yourself an out. Just do it. And wait and see what happens.

No one ever said this is going to be easy. It isn't. As I wrote before, it will be the hardest thing you've ever done. Just wait and see what happens. Hang in there.
Michele

Jtolic,
It's been a few days since I've been on the board and I'm just wondering what you decided to do about asking him to come over to help with the baby. And congratulations! What good news. Enjoy your baby.

Michele

Kcee,
I'm worried that your wife will feel ganged up on. Perhaps she already does. Even if your questions are valid, if they annoy her, she'll lose interest in therapy and that won't be good right now. So here's an alternative.

Your therapist can assure her that s/he understands that you migh tnot be a real romantic kind of guy, but if a miracle happened overnight, and somehow you turned into that guy, what would the two of you be doing that you don't do now that would really light her fire?

Hi Michelle and everyone:
Thank you as always for your reply and support, not just to me but for everyone who is writing in. It means so much to all of us.
In answer to your statement, My head knows I have to distance right now if there is any hope for our relationship to progress. Unfortunately, my heart is scared to death that he won't miss me and reach out and "find me". The heart tends to rule over the head,many times in my case, when it should be just the opposite. My judgment gets clouded and I wanted your professional support that I was doing the best thing at this time. I don't trust myself totally yet to make the wisest decisions in regards to this. Its funny how I make major decisions all day long professionally as a nurse, but when it comes to this, I am such an amateur! Thank you for the support!
By the way, I'm looking forward to hearing about the Illanya program. Good luck with that-it is so great of you to do it.

Michelle,

My last post was probably a little vague. What you are suggesting is what I think the therapist is going to be asking W. Today is our therapy day, and I am preparing to be on my very best behavior (neutral body language etc). I'll let you know how W responds. If she is evasive, I'll just let the therapist deal with it.

Just venting here...it's so very strange to have my W show such trust in me as a father (she does treat me as a full partner in this regard...it is the only interaction I have with her that feels as though she doesn't have a wall up around her), but treat me as a highly respected but not particularly favored or well liked member of the family in our one on one relationship. Very weird.

Michele,

Thanks for the adv. The problem with confronting W about OM is that she'll just deny it. I already hinted that I knew and she just commented that he's a really nice guy that loves kids. At this point she doesn't care what I think. The OM is very successful and so is she. He’s going to have to mess up big time for her to change her mind.

How can I find a SBT C in my area? I doubt I’ll ever get the chance to go with my W. But just in case a miracle occurs.

DB,
You wrote "My judgment gets clouded and I wanted your professional support that I was doing the best thing at this time. I don't trust myself totally yet.." My professional judgment is that you should trust YOURSELF. You're the health care professional. Act as if you are the patient and minister to yourself! You're on the right track.
Michele

Pas,
Email my office, divbuster@aol.com and let me know where you live and my office will see if there's a therapist in your area.
Michele

Michele,

I finally got the guts to approach my H about our situation. I told him that we had been separated for a year and it was time for us to talk and discuss the situation.

He told me that we would talk this week. That was last Thursday and as of today, he still hasn't said when we could talk. He's acting quite normal. Haven't seen any changes in his behavior or communications with me.

I plan to open up the conversation. I have a pretty good idea of what I need to address. What should I not let him get away with?

Mary

Michele,

I've read the chapter regarding the legal system and I agree with you completely. If a D is unavoidable than mediation is the best answer. However, what do you do when your S will not consider this option?

Let me briefly explain my situation.
- My W has been unhappy for some time now. I've tried to make her happy, maybe too hard. She lost respect for me.
- W meets someone at work. Gets him involved with the K's. Then drops the bomb.
- W goes to att and files for uncontested D.
- I try to get her to consider mediation. She refuses.
- W starts having her att send letters through my att. "Stop scaring the K's" and such. I'm not scaring the K's. D is scaring the K's. My att says it's a tactic toward a custody battle. Nasty, ugly, dirty business.

I now there's some small chance that my W feelings toward this OM may fade some day. The problem is it may not happen for years. I can offer my W a D through reckless abandonment in my state. I doubt this will upset her because she already has her mind made up. I don't want to loose my family but I can't bury my head I the sand either. Would putting up a real legal fight be a 180? Up to this point I've been walking on eggshells. How do you DB around this ugly mess?

Michele,
Couple weeks since last posting here. Saw wife on monday, mainly to spend time with SD. She acted somewhat distant. Topic came up about when I asked her to move out. She makes is sound like she didnt want to move but didnt want the R to work either. I just said I made a lot of mistakes and wish I had done somethings differently and left it at that. A day or so later I sent an email thanking her for letting me spend time with her daughter and a few small compliments, ie her place looked nice. However 2 days after she read it she hasn't responded, which is unlike her. So I think after reading Ch 5, I might have to use LRT. I have stopped saying the L word, but do compliments have to be cut out as well. I know she thrives on these and are part of her love language (did I just answer my own question?). Or is just being more unavailible good enough? We still have joint bank accounts which she still has access too, but doest use much, yet! Do I need to close these and let her start working w/o a net as it were? Is this also part of the LRT technique, becoming distant in many areas that where once available?

Thanks. D

Michele,

In follow-up to my post of 10/2, my H and I have since talked.

I've discovered he is more messed up that I thought. He said he had not talked about our R because he is so messed up in his mind that he doesn't know what he wants. He knows he doesn't want a D but he doesn't know if he can come home or just wants to be alone. He finally came to the conclusion that he needs professional help to assist him sort things out in his head. He says that this past year has been horrible for him. All he tries to do is stay busy so he doesn't have to think. He says that he still loves me but that he can't set aside the marital issues which brought us to the separation. He's afraid that nothing would change if he came home. He was in tears and very upset throughout the conversation.

I listened carefully and told him that I was very pleased that he was finally considering therapy. I told him that I sought help early on and that I feel better about myself and the future. He commented that I was obviously smarter than him to have done that early on.

He told me that he was going to go to a therapist that had been recommended. That he wasn't very happy about having to do this but knew it was necessary.

I stressed the need to pick a good therapist that would help him and not add to his confusion. He said that he had.

I feel like this is a major breakthrough although I don't know what the outcome will be. I just want us to be happy whether it's together or on our own.

Mary

Hi Everyone and Michelle:

Thid is continued update on situation. Last post, I had decided to distance myself from situation for a awhile, and see what happens. It has been two weeks since we have spoken. He did email last week asking if I had anything for him to take back to either of our children living there.Normally, I would probably answere question, ad then write something chatty, but this time, I only replied with a "no". He did go back to his high school reunion, but it appears OW did not accompany him! I received an email from him yesterday, chatty about the reunion, plus giving me an update on all the things he did with two of our adult children who live there. He said he would tell me more at "lunch", although no specific invitation was extended. He wrothe more in this email and chatted more than he usually does.
I have been reading about the distance/pursuer relationship, and it seems we may be one of the couples that have experienced this, and continue to do so. I can't believe that Michelles's article addresses this in another section.
My goal " keep him talking! What are my steps? 1. Not answer the email right away.Wait 24 hrs. Usually, I answer them immediately. 2. Make all responses polite, but brief. 3. Do not ask any questions, especially about any lunch plans.
How will I know if I am successful in working towards goal? 1. He will send another email that includes small talk and not just business 2. He will ask for lunch date.
Michelle-it is so easy to become discouraged, after so long a time, but I think I am getting back on track again.

Please excuse all the typing and misspelled words in above post. I misplaced my glasses.

Hi,

A couple of things -

DB713 - I just wanted to chime in that: it's perfectly okay to compete for a relationship. That's what you are doing, and that's what everyone does, whether they know it or not - we are all competing for what (or who) we want. What matters is, what *works* and what is *ethical*. Ultimately, choices that include both these qualities are best.

Second, I am not married, but in a fairly serious, monogamous (at his request) 1-year relationship. I've read DB, & plan to get 7 steps. I think they're both relevant to a good relationship of any kind. (I also read & apply The Rules book series, the Mars/ Venus series, and Technique of the Love Affair - all of these books seem to apply similar techniques that I find described on this site.)

So here's my question Michele: How can I find a really great SBT therapist in my area (Los Angeles)? I've called all around, web-searched, and am currently seeing a therapist who claims to understand DB & SBT, but her interviewing questions aren't in line with what I've read about (both here, & in articles by the folks at the Brief Family Therapy center in Milwaukee.

Otherwise, I'd be glad to read 7S & post here while continuing the search for a good SB therapist here in town.

My relationship isn't terrible, but I'd like us both to meet each others' needs more fully & both *feel* that those needs are met too (& maybe make it permanent!)

We are both from divorced homes - but I recently emailed info about SBT to my boyfriend's almost-divorced 40-something cousins (who I'm good friends with, and luckily, live sort of near Milwaukee!) So, there my be some optimistic dialog about SBT bouncing around in this extended family soon!

Thanks tons Michele, for getting the optimistic message out there & look forward to reading more here!

love,
L

Michelle

I'm not sure exactly where to start. My wife moved out a month ago and she filed for a divorce two days later. I went straight to the Last Resort Technique.

I am trying to be loving and not be overenthusiastic.
I am trying to be vague. But I usually tell her after the event was over how much fun my daughter and I were having.
I don’t say “I Love You.” I don’t try to hug or kiss her.
I try to leave after an event. Sometimes I talk the STBX and daughter into staying a little longer.
I don’t talk about the future. Especially since she filed for divorce and we are going through the motions.
I don’t talk about our marriage. I kind of slipped once in a while on small topics.
I try to have a PMA
I have only tried to invite her once or twice to events I know she wants to attend. Also, I am trying not to inquire about her events. I usually say, “Have a good time”
I am reconnecting with old friends and getting out of the house.

I am not sure exactly how to proceed on the LRT. Or is this the only technique I should be using? She says she left me because I am controlling. I could never get a clear definition of what is controlling. I have posted several incidents on the board and they do not appear controlling to the DB public. But as someone pointed out their opinion does not matter; it’s the wife’s opinion that matters.

The LRT is difficult because we have a young child. Sometimes, our daughter is at mom's and sometimes at dads. We allow each other a nightly phone call to the parent that does not have her.

Here are some of the events that have happened in the last few weeks.
1) We already had a Halloween costume for our daughter. I asked are we going to trick or treat together this year? She says yes. The STBX asks if she can show up the night before to show me the correct way to put on the costume for our daughter’s school party the next morning. On Halloween night she shows up and we have a great time. She tells me she had a good time.

2) Monsters, Inc. came out this weekend. She called me three times to ask if we all could go. I was unsure on how to proceed because on page 130 it says, "Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all." So I was a little hesitant in responding with a Yes. She tells me "I would like to go see Monsters with both of you. I am available Sunday after 1pm. Just give me a call when you have a schedule." We did go on Sunday. She showed up a little early and purchased movie tickets for the family. I purchased the food and drinks. After the event we went to dinner. We mention to each other that we had a good time the next day. She tells me I looked handsome on Sunday.

3) Some subjects she appears to be angry or annoyed. For example, I called last night to talk to our daughter. My daughter was a little cranky and my STBX said she would call back in a few minutes. She didn't. I called back 2 hours later and she said, "What do you want?" in a mean tone. I guess my daughter was still cranky.

4) She tells me once in a while she still loves me. She tries to hug me once in a while or touch my hand or shoulder.

How do you do the Last Resort Technique when you have a child that both of you are trying to take care? I am trying to do everything on page 130. It appears if I let her control the shots she and act as if I don’t care then is more responsive to me. When I try to be vague she becomes angry. But on the other hand, she does not want to give me any information about her life and that's o.k. with me.

How do you LRT when you are proceeding through a divorce and you need to communicate about property and other things?

Lastly is the Last Resort Technique the only thing I should be doing now?

[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Doodle's Daddy ]

Update on progress since 10/2 post:
Son who lives overseas emailed ex and myself about he and his wife are now getting dovorced and daughter in law would be moving to our town as she has no family. Ex and I met for dinner {OW OOT again} to discuss situation and to agree upon a plan to be able to help her if needed. We also talked about other subjects, and I found out through the conversation that OW did actually go back with him to class reunion-It came out accidentally in conversation. I didn't say anything, but it just about broke my heart., especially when he had told me previously she wasn't going. Since that incident, he came over and fixed something on my car on his way home from work, accompanied by the guy he carpools with, who lives a few doors from him. I also ran in to him at a local store and he flirted with me a bit and actually followed me to the checkout and walked out with me. Things were going well. I didn't realize how much his telling me about OW and reunion upset me, till he called again this week, while OW was OOT agin. It just hit me wrong, and although I was upset, I didn't yell, I just told him I was getting tired of all of this etc, and I wanted a husband who loved me, wanted to be with me, etc, and talking to me only when OW isn't around really hurts me, etc, and he doesn't know how difficult it is to try and remain friends under the circumstances. I wasn't rude, but got my point across. After I hung up, I realized I had fallen into the old trap, and sent him an email apologizing, stating I had had a bad day, and his call came when I was at a low point. He emailed back that it wasn't necessary to apologize but thanked me. The next day, the child support check from him arrived in the mail inside a Halloween card! This is the first card I have received from him in 5 years!!! It had to have been mailed prior to our phone discussion!! I, immediately sent him an email thanking him for the card and stating what a nice surprize it was, and again apologized for my tone the night before. I have not heard from him since and it has been two days.
I think I have caused a set back, but my goal is to let him be the one to make the next contact. That seems to be the only thing to do at this point. One thing I learned is that it is easy to slip into old patterns and you have to be on guard!

Can't sleep. Can't get the book, at the moment, but thought I'd get a taste of it here and I have. Can tell you Michele, that I am quite touched by your dedication here and appreciate your work. A lot of people are changing their lives here and saving their families. Hope we all find inside us what it takes to make the difference. It really can change things not just for us but for the next generation.
ALTL

Thanks so much, ALTL, you're very kind. Yes, that's what we've all got to do, change the world, one family at a time. We're working at it, aren't we?

Michele

Michele
I have not read the books.I'm 4000 mile away from home and would take 5 weeks to get a copy.
Three weeks ago wife said her feelings have changed and she does not feel the love for me any more. But she wants to wait intill Jan,Feb to do any thing. Said she needs to think things out.But since she told me this news she has been every cold to me and family.She is always bringing up that her feelings chnged, well what about the people ho love and care for her they dont have any feelings. I keep hoping that since she wants to think about it that she will see I love her.We have only talked small talk by e-mail, she will not talk about why she is feeling this way. How can I talk to her and try to help if she just shuts up. Should I just step back and give some space,but then I feel if I dont try to talk she will keep the feeling and leave or file for D.Dont ask why but I have feeling their is OM, she has started doing things she never done before.Been with her for 19 years,our D said she told the kids that she still loves me but the feeling have changed. I dont know what to do, but It is driving me crazy.

Michele,

I have posted in the Newcomers(In need of immediate help) section but am not getting the responses I had hoped for. I have read both DB and DR and am still a little confused on what to do. I'm not sure you are still reading this forum, but hopefully you are.

I got the classic "I love you, you're my best friend, but I haven't felt loved, so I want a divorce" bomb. I will admit that intimacy has been a problem but only because I was pushed away quite a few times and because of a lack of communication, we were waiting for each other to make the next move. Well I never thought the next move was the Dreaded D. But that is where it seems we are headed. I got my papers served to me this past Sunday. Even God rested on Sunday!!! I have been trying to keep a PMA while using the LRT. We are still in the same house, which is good but I am still dealing w/ her alien most of the time.

I've concentrating on myself lately and have done alot of soul searching. I have been doing alot of weightlifting (which I think is driving my W up the wall because I only did it sparingly in the past) and trying to better myself w/ things that I know that need improving, such as being neater around the house. I have also become alot closer w/ our dog than in the past. I guess by doing these things I was hoping to show my w that I could change.

Unfortunately, I am not getting any feedback from my W. The only time that we talk is in the AM. At times she is very receptive to our talks(normally about the dog who has been sick lately) and other times she is not receptive at all. But most times I have to initiate the conversation. I normally try to give her her space in the PM. She has been staying out later than usual on the weekends and she doesn't tell me where she is going and I never question her. Every now and then she will do something for me that is unexpected such as folding my clothes for me, or getting something for me at the store. So I am sure that these are good signs. But other times she won't even look at me or she will make disgusted noises at me when crossing each other in the hallway.

I feel that time is against me. I will have my lawyer drag this D out for as long as he can but I don't know how much time it will take. MY major goal right now is to get back to being friends and from there we can get back to being lovers but that is a long time away I feel. But I am so confused. Do I continue to lift weights knowing that it really bothers her???? Do I just totally stay away from her and give her all the space that she needs????? Should I give her a Dr. Dobson "Freedom Letter"???? Please I need help immediately. Thanks in advance.....Helpless

P.S. Sorry about my Handler name I didn't know about the rules of a positive name but I do have a positive outlook on myself now.

Hello Helpless, I too posted in the Newcomers (new to this board) and have not gotton the responses I thought I would - I don't have much advice for you as I am going thru pretty much the same except no papers have been filed yet. They have been talked about by my H from time to time as he keeps threatening me about separation, etc. Just try to hang in there and keep doing as you are doing - sometimes it takes a while for them to notice any changes, and sometimes they notice but the don't let us know they notice - kind of a controlling thing, I think. I have a good day and then bam! either I say or do something to set us back or he says or does something and I react to it in a way that sets us back..so just keep your faith and try to have a good turkey day! Judie

My husbands MLC started a year ago. In August I filed for divorce knowing that is not what I really wanted. He let me know he didn't want to work on the marriage. I figured that was enough to make myself realize it was time to see an attorney. He always told me not to waste my money on a legal separation and just file for divorce cause that's where it would end up anyway. I just wanted him out of the house so he had time to himself to think about what he really wanted and I believed this would do it. He refused to move out when I asked him to so I needed the court system to do it. He wasn't happy when he was forced to leave.
He has always been a pessimistic person, me the optomist. Part of our problem now since the negative memories are the ones staying with him right now. Anyway, I am fearful that his being so negative about everything is the thing that will keep him from letting his guard down and want to try again.
I wish I would have found Divorce Remedy sooner because I just finished it and really saw our situation very similar to Carol & Dean's. My husband is however abusing alcohol but doesn't see his drinking as a problem. And I haven't seen anyone mention this, but this thing about me not being able to touch him. Even if its just to reach across the counter in front of him he jumps away. It's driving me nuts. How can they just shut you out and be so cold like that? I told him he treats me like I have the plague and since then he doesn't make it as obvious, but I still notice it.
He moved out Nov. 1 and the kids jump back and forth every couple of days. (Our county is totally 50/50 when it comes to divorce.) I have done the LRT by not calling him unless its for the kids, have gone back to work part time after raising the kids for 11 years, and am even enrolled in our area Technical College to go back to school. All of this has been very positive for me and I'm very happy with myself.
One of the things that has bothered me about him getting the kids so much is the fact that I have always been the one to be there for them and without going into details, literally raised them while he made the money. Well the kids (14 and 11) feel they can't talk to him and are afraid of him cause of his temper. My son has started having problems at school and this was all kept from H cause of my sons fear of him. It finally came to a point where I had to let H know how the kids felt. He was very receptive to what I had to say (of course he first had to ask if I had put these things in their minds) and admitted he didn't know how to communicate with them. We then had the kids join us and let them know they needed to help their dad learn how to communicate. He also promised to work on patience with them. Big step for him since this is what has bothered me for years about our marriage. Things are more relaxed between us since that talk. And I notice a change in the kids as well and am very thankful.
My question is now that I see his changes in him towards the kids, I really want to let him know how much this means to me cause its been the basis of the anger he has accused me of having that has, in his words, "brought us here". Being the pessimist that he is, would it be a bad move on my part to let him know that I appreciate the positive changes he has made towards his relationship with the kids. I'm just afraid, not knowing his state of mind lately, that he may take it as "I told you so" and not take it as a compliment. But I want him to know how much it means to me that their relationship is improving cause of him. That could be taken as blaming him. And he may think that I assume he is doing this for me which he wouldn't be happy with either.
Being the pessimist that he is, it makes it so difficult to believe that he can put aside his negative feelings and forget about the bad times in our marriage and believe that this new me is here to stay and that he could possibly even want to get to know this new me.
Michelle, your book has helped me a great deal so far and I know I will be going back to it time and time again for support and advice. You have really been a God-send for so many of us! I can't help to wonder if I read it too late since we are in the divorce stage. I just couldn't continue to let my daughter (14) believe that a husband treats his wife like a doormat and its okay. I felt I had no choice but to ask for a divorce. I still don't want the divorce but I couldn't continue the way it was. Help me believe its not too late! Thank you!!

Dear Michele

l will try to briefly explain my sitch.Sep for 10 months. young childn.For 5 months l pursued h.Great job l did too.Begging...to guilt trips...to manipulation with chiln...even justified the man.because he used drugs and partied hard.

During 10 months...4 months we went to couns.Did not work...l made no changes neither did he.He moved 5 times in 10 months.4 months ago he started a r/ship with a girl.Now they live together.L have consistently Db since beg of Dec.

During 10 months there was very little contact from him.It was all me.

H started the property sett and child access through the court.He flaunted the ow at the court.

Since db l applied me being happy,upbeat,agreeable,never ringing,etc...

My dilemma is the house is up for sale and l must move.l want to live in another state at the beach.He disagrees with my decision.It is a 180 for me to do this and he acts like 'as if'.l am a co dependant and typical pursuer.It breaks my heart every day to live this sitch.Relocating to a place where l want to live gives me focus and a pma.He does not see it this way.

l want him to come back...while the ow is still there l wont happen.Do you think the move will still give me the opprtunity to DB...the distance l know will be a problem but l dont want to live here anymore.

l dont know what else l can do.

db713,
I too am divorced (12 months) and I'm also working towards reconciliation w/ my ex wife. We still love each other but alot has happened. Long story, if you and your ex husband still have a underlying bond of love, this can bring you back. Please pick up "Getting Back Together" by Dr. Goetz.This will help so much. I also consult w/ her and she is wondeful.

Michele;
My wife is having an EA and says she wants to work on our marriage but does not seem to want to end the A.
I've been trying to follow your suggestions for when he/she does not want to end the affair, including the "Last Resort".
One problem, though, is that I cannot bring myself to stop saying "I love you" or having sex (which she's wanted more now that before), and really, I think in many ways we've both begun to change the many problems our marriage had.
Any suggestions for a "modified" or "hybrid" Last Resort? / or other way(s) of dealing with her not wanting to end the affair?