Previous Thread:
Lightening My LoadPutting this definition here for LH who never answered my question of why he always insults people if they don’t agree with him:
“ An ad hominem argument is a personal attack against the source of an argument, rather than against the argument itself. Essentially, this means that ad hominem arguments are used to attack opposing views indirectly, by attacking the individuals or groups that support these views.
Ad hominem arguments can take many forms, from basic name-calling to more complex rhetoric. For example, an ad hominem argument can involve simply insulting a person instead of properly replying to a point that they raised, or it can involve questioning their motives in response to their criticism of the current state of things.”
While people have always offered blunt advice on this board, the bullying and personal attacks are a new thing.
No, I’m not a narcissist. My ex is and I am not the only, nor the first, to identify him as such. His behavior towards our adult children since the divorce confirms it
The main thing I did wrong in my marriage was not to immediately divorce his sorry a$$ when I discovered he slept with an old girlfriend the night before our wedding. The other thing I did wrong during my marriage was completely outside my control - I developed an autoimmune disease that caused me to be tired. (Oh, and don’t forget the infamous complaint I “walk too heavy”).
Other than that I was kind, loving, forgiving, hardworking, sexy, an intellectual and physical companion. Almost every man I have dated since my divorce has asked me what the HE-double hockey sticks was my ex thinking when he divorced me? So I have outside confirmation that who I am in a relationship is pretty darned good.
Spouses that want to cheat don’t necessarily need their wives or husbands to give them an excuse. Cheaters make up their own excuses for their infidelity. And yes, even really good spouses get cheated on.
No, I’m not a narcissist. My ex is and I am not the only, nor the first, to identify him as such. His behavior towards our adult children since the divorce confirms it
Well I never "attacked" or called you a narcissist. I simply said that narcissists typically think they are right and everyone else is wrong. Apparently you feel that applies to you.
The main thing I did wrong in my marriage was not to immediately divorce his sorry a$$ when I discovered he slept with an old girlfriend the night before our wedding.
You wouldn't have your children if that was the case.
The other thing I did wrong during my marriage was completely outside my control - I developed an autoimmune disease that caused me to be tired. (Oh, and don’t forget the infamous complaint I “walk too heavy”).
Was walking heavy part of the autoimmune disease?
Other than that I was kind, loving, forgiving, hardworking, sexy, an intellectual and physical companion.
Somebody's feeling pretty good about themselves today lol.
Almost every man I have dated since my divorce has asked me what the HE-double hockey sticks was my ex thinking when he divorced me? So I have outside confirmation that who I am in a relationship is pretty darned good.
Yeah so I am sure these men had a different view of you then your ex.
Spouses that want to cheat don’t necessarily need their wives or husbands to give them an excuse. Cheaters make up their own excuses for their infidelity. And yes, even really good spouses get cheated on.
Affairs are typically acts of anger -- he had built up a ton of resentment toward you, and since he's an avoidant, he hadn't given voice to any of it or worked any of it through. I'm not saying that you deserved his resentment, it could be completely irrational, but the point is that it exists. People typically leave relationships for 1 of 2 reasons. Loss of attraction or they do not see a happy future together.
Affairs are typically acts of self-indulgence, entitlement and opportunity - not anger.
I’m tired of your trolling LH so I’m going to blink you Mia. Go play on someone else’s thread. Or maybe start your own again.
While people have always offered blunt advice on this board, the bullying and personal attacks are a new thing.
LH you can’t seem to disagree with people without insulting them. Why is that?
I've noticed the increasing insults. Steve recently muted LH, too. LH has always been challenged by WAS like Wayfarer or Josh's who may not be wrong to end a toxic relationship, and LBS like May and Steve who saved their marriages in IHS and without waiting for years. (And truly at his best with villainous WAS and LBS who really need to find the strength to leave.) I hope LH is able to sort through whatever's made him grumpier and less empathetic lately! I wish him well.
K the point I was trying to make probably too jokingly is people don't leave happy healthy relationships. I know mine wasn't happy or healthy and mainly because neither of us had the tools to make it that way. I will stay off your thread.
While people have always offered blunt advice on this board, the bullying and personal attacks are a new thing.
LH you can’t seem to disagree with people without insulting them. Why is that?
I've noticed the increasing insults. Steve recently muted LH, too. LH has always been challenged by WAS like Wayfarer or Josh's who may not be wrong to end a toxic relationship, and LBS like May and Steve who saved their marriages in IHS and without waiting for years. (And truly at his best with villainous WAS and LBS who really need to find the strength to leave.) I hope LH is able to sort through whatever's made him grumpier and less empathetic lately! I wish him well.
Yeah I had issues with Steve when he said "I don't know how a PA isn't a dealbreaker for you LBS" or "Divorce is way easier than reconciling" or "everyone who likes to drink is an alcoholic". Yeah I have issues with you CW when you say "Josh's W deserves to go out and get the sex she deserves" A WW should try to screw the LBS and get the best deal" I still don't think you belong here you probably belong on a WW forum.
Having said that you are probably right I have been grumpier lately and I need to tone it down. It's no excuse but some things said here really tic me off.
Meme from my sister:
"I personally think Cinderella should have lived a happy life with all her animal friends rather than settle for a man who had her try on a shoe because he didn't recognize her without makeup".
This board is evidently not already in rough enough shape with only a handful of people remaining who post. So by all means let’s block the few that are still here and posting and further hasten the board’s extinction. Brilliant move. Plus it serves to scare those few who do post into worrying they will be blocked next. Maybe we need a new rule that only well padded or “safe” 2X4s are allowed. Or perhaps just ban anything we don’t agree with (and often can’t refute). I may not agree with some of what LH posts but silencing him is sorta like winning the debate by forfeiture. I’d rather silence him with my brilliant retorts. But that’s just me, well me and Elon Musk.
I've noticed the increasing insults. Steve recently muted LH, too.
Did you also notice the similarity that in both of these instances...multiple vets agreed with him and both of you disregarded/ defended against MOST of the feedback. Even when examples were given.
There was a season on this board when 2x4s were acceptable and honestly from a place of tough love. It doesn't mean there was a lack of empathy... but we are not the "trophy for participation award" squad. We are the "hold your feet to the fire" squad. The 1st most likely got you here. The 2nd - gives you the best chance of getting out of it.
LH has always been challenged by WAS like Wayfarer or Josh's who may not be wrong to end a toxic relationship, and LBS like May and Steve who saved their marriages in IHS and without waiting for years. (And truly at his best with villainous WAS and LBS who really need to find the strength to leave.) I hope LH is able to sort through whatever's made him grumpier and less empathetic lately! I wish him well.
T - We don't know if Josh's relationship is toxic. It's displaying Toxic traits NOW as all marriages do when they are falling apart. Rewriting of history happens on both sides of the fence. Only time will settle the muddy waters of emotions... but sadly most don't last here long enough for us to truly help them.
I’d rather silence him with my brilliant retorts. But that’s just me, well me and Elon Musk.
Love it!
T - We don't know if Josh's relationship is toxic. It's displaying Toxic traits NOW as all marriages do when they are falling apart. Rewriting of history happens on both sides of the fence. Only time will settle the muddy waters of emotions... but sadly most don't last here long enough for us to truly help them.
Exactly it is clear he doesn't want the marriage to end. Tell me CW how telling him his wife deserves to go out and find good sex is empathetic.
Did you also notice the similarity that in both of these instances...multiple vets agreed with him and both of you disregarded/ defended against MOST of the feedback.
To me, disagreeing isn't an excuse to launch into personal, ad hominem attacks. I journal here to offer and receive support, to share and receive different perspectives. I prefer empathetic advice. I accept 2x4s. I muted LH when he referred to kml and my behavior as "borderline psychopathic." Past ICs have pointed out my tolerance for bad behavior is lower when other people are involved, that if I wouldn't accept a behavior towards a friend or my kids, I shouldn't accept it towards me.
I prefer empathetic advice.
So not to accuse you for being a hypocrite again but how is telling Josh his wife deserves to go out while married and find good sex empathetic?
Spouses that want to cheat don’t necessarily need their wives or husbands to give them an excuse. Cheaters make up their own excuses for their infidelity. And yes, even really good spouses get cheated on.
Affairs are typically acts of anger -- he had built up a ton of resentment toward you, and since he's an avoidant, he hadn't given voice to any of it or worked any of it through. I'm not saying that you deserved his resentment, it could be completely irrational, but the point is that it exists. People typically leave relationships for 1 of 2 reasons. Loss of attraction or they do not see a happy future together.
LH,
What you say may be right for the average case but this is clearly not a "typical" case since her exH slept with someone else the night before his wedding.
I also find that sometimes your message gets lost because the conversation devolves into an argument such as what happened with T and KML above. Perhaps you can recognize when this happens and employ your active listening and validation skills instead?
You make a lot of good points and I would hate for your messages to be lost because of the delivery.
What you say may be right for the average case but this is clearly not a "typical" case since her exH slept with someone else the night before his wedding.
No I agree with the wedding night affair. I was talking more about his third affair when he left for good. I am sticking to my statements as I have done a lot of research on the subject.
I also find that sometimes your message gets lost because the conversation devolves into an argument such as what happened with T and KML above. Perhaps you can recognize when this happens and employ your active listening and validation skills instead?
You make a lot of good points and I would hate for your messages to be lost because of the delivery.
I agree. I have to do better on my delivery. I attend to attack when provoked or annoyed. Message accepted and understood. Bet my exw would back that statement lol.
MLCxH I don't believe most affairs arise out of anger, or any of the other things LH quoted. DIVORCES may arise out of those - because that's what healthy people do if they are unhappy in their marriage and don't think they can fix it - they get divorced. They don't cheat. But choosing to take your dissatisfaction (or anger, or whatever) and have an AFFAIR, and lie to your spouse's face (which LH did by omission for 14 years after he had an affair which he did not disclose to his wife until 14 years after it happened, depriving her of agency in her own life and her own decisions and likely poisoning the marriage in subtle ways long before she finally cheated on him) is a serious character defect at the very least. Sometimes (as in my ex's case) it's an indicator of a dark triad personality disorder as well.
I know many excellent people, here and elsewhere, who did nothing to deserve their spouses cheating except to be a little too trusting. Some cheaters plead to be taken back when their cheating is discovered, because they had no intention of leaving the marriage, they just wanted a little strange on the side.
In a calm demeanor I will say it should be pointed out it was an EA and I never once indicated I was not a flawed human being. I could say my ex is a narcissist and the only thing I did I wrong was fart to loud. No I own my part in the downfall of the marriage. Affairs are symptoms of underlying problems. Those are the facts and they can not be refuted.
What you say may be right for the average case but this is clearly not a "typical" case since her exH slept with someone else the night before his wedding.
No I agree with the wedding night affair. I was talking more about his third affair when he left for good. I am sticking to my statements as I have done a lot of research on the subject.
Statistical research focuses on the mean and median not the outliers.
Having sex with someone else the night before your wedding is usually an indicator of psychological problems. In many such cases, the person finds a reason to be unhappy (aka justify the affair) despite the best efforts of their spouse.
MLCxH I don't believe most affairs arise out of anger, or any of the other things LH quoted.
I agree with what you are trying to say. Technically, an argument can indeed be made that anger and unhappiness are what lead to affairs in many cases. However, a person can be unhappy or angry despite the best efforts of their spouse. In many cases it may have nothing to do with the spouse and the person just rewrites history to project the cause of anger/unhappiness onto their spouse.
Sometimes (as in my ex's case) it's an indicator of a dark triad personality disorder as well.
I know many excellent people, here and elsewhere, who did nothing to deserve their spouses cheating except to be a little too trusting.
Correct. How many times have we seen advice being given on this forum that the problems of a WAS are theirs alone and there is not much the LBS can do except focus on their healing?
Affairs are symptoms of underlying problems. Those are the facts and they can not be refuted.
Yes, but it can be a problem with the person having the affair with the spouse having only a minor part to play, if at all.
I agree and if you read my post I do say it can be completely irrational but it still exists. Most marriages collapse due to contributions on both sides. Some more then others but a lot stems from unmet needs and expectations. The question becomes what we’re the expectations and where they clearly communicated?
As someone whose husband cheated ... this is my humble opinion, based on my sitch ... my exh can hold a grudge better than a camel can store water. He literally feeds on resentments, nurtures them like the Cookie Monster collects chocolate chip cookies. This is NOT the recipe for happy and healthy relationships of any kind. It fuels most of his behavior.
I believe he justified his affair because of his anger and his resentments. Did we have problems? Yes. Did I contribute to them. H3ll YES. I don't think anyone can be in a 26 year relationship without some resentment growing on both sides, or mistakes being made on both sides. We are human, after all. But I also know my exh, in some ways far better now than when we were married. He absolutely justifies the most outrageous behavior based on his whim du jour, which also is colored by his anger and his resentments.
As far as LH's point on expectations - I agree, but I also think that some of the expectations people have - in fact, the ones that probably cause the most problems - are the unconscious expectations, whose very nature makes it impossible for them to be clearly communicated.
Again, I see this with perfect clarity in hindsight, certainly, in my own sitch.
As someone whose husband cheated ... this is my humble opinion, based on my sitch ... my exh can hold a grudge better than a camel can store water. He literally feeds on resentments, nurtures them like the Cookie Monster collects chocolate chip cookies. This is NOT the recipe for happy and healthy relationships of any kind. It fuels most of his behavior.
I believe he justified his affair because of his anger and his resentments. Did we have problems? Yes. Did I contribute to them. H3ll YES. I don't think anyone can be in a 26 year relationship without some resentment growing on both sides, or mistakes being made on both sides. We are human, after all. But I also know my exh, in some ways far better now than when we were married. He absolutely justifies the most outrageous behavior based on his whim du jour, which also is colored by his anger and his resentments.
As far as LH's point on expectations - I agree, but I also think that some of the expectations people have - in fact, the ones that probably cause the most problems - are the unconscious expectations, whose very nature makes it impossible for them to be clearly communicated.
Again, I see this with perfect clarity in hindsight, certainly, in my own sitch.
Great post BF. I agree 100%. My exw is your exhs brother. She’s still angry. But guess what? LH19 hasn’t been in the picture for 4 years.
As someone whose husband cheated ... this is my humble opinion, based on my sitch ... my exh can hold a grudge better than a camel can store water. He literally feeds on resentments, nurtures them like the Cookie Monster collects chocolate chip cookies. This is NOT the recipe for happy and healthy relationships of any kind. It fuels most of his behavior.
I believe he justified his affair because of his anger and his resentments. Did we have problems? Yes. Did I contribute to them. H3ll YES. I don't think anyone can be in a 26 year relationship without some resentment growing on both sides, or mistakes being made on both sides. We are human, after all. But I also know my exh, in some ways far better now than when we were married. He absolutely justifies the most outrageous behavior based on his whim du jour, which also is colored by his anger and his resentments.
As far as LH's point on expectations - I agree, but I also think that some of the expectations people have - in fact, the ones that probably cause the most problems - are the unconscious expectations, whose very nature makes it impossible for them to be clearly communicated.
Again, I see this with perfect clarity in hindsight, certainly, in my own sitch.
Great post BF. I agree 100%. My exw is your exhs brother. She’s still angry. But guess what? LH19 hasn’t been in the picture for 4 years.
LH my exh started a screamfest with me the day our D was final. It was 12/23 and I called to find out what we were doing with son for Christmas. I didn't even know our D was final that day, because in our state they don't tell you unless you pay the extra $25 to have the divorce nisi mailed to you. I'm like WTF, I'm just trying to figure out Christmas, I had no specific "tone" and he's telling me to lose my nasty tone? So I said, "Why are you so angry? You've gotten absolutely everything you wanted - house sold, more money than you've ever had, free access to our son whenever you want, ability to come and go as you please, see whomever you want, do whatever you want, buy whatever you want. I don't call you or bother you in any way unless it's about scheduling or for something directly related to our son. Why are you still so angry at me?"
Man, that unleashed an absolute $H!tstorm!!!! "DON"T YOU TRY TO PIN THIS ON ME! I NEVER WANTED THIS!" was my favorite quote from that conversation. I asked, "Well, I certainly didn't want a divorce. I've made it abundantly clear that you could stop this at any time, but you didn't. So if you didn't want one why are we divorced and what can we do about it now?" I think he hung up on me at that point.
He's married to his AP. Apparently he's still angry. Living in paradise. I have zero contact. Why is he still so freaking angry all the time? Maybe, just maybe LH, your ex and my ex are really angry people who don't know that anger masks fear.
Mine wasn't angry with me bttrfly, only chronically dissatisfied with life. His inability to be happy manifested in many ways unrelated to me:
- constantly planning his next big adventure because he'd get depressed without something to focus on in the future
- getting in trouble at work because he couldn't be satisfied with his great career and his great job with exceptionally good hours for a surgical specialty and good money and national prestige, and because following the rules was beneath him. They even sent him to anger management once.
- constantly remodeling, even things that didn't need it (this has been even more of an issue since the divorce, when he has remodeled a single room with bath 3 times that I know of in ten years. Not redecorated, remodeled).
I contributed a LOT to him staying relatively sane and happy during our years together - I doubt he could have been married to anyone else for 24 years as successfully. But his inability to be satisfied also led to cheating, some of which I had no clue about at the time but that seems pretty clear now.
And bttrfly, if he never wanted the divorce then I guess he shouldn't have carried on a years long affair behind your back, should he? You didn't cause that. He was probably just mad because he wanted to have his cake and eat it too, and you ruined that when you figured out he was having an affair. Poor baby - he had CONSEQUENCES! And he didn't want CONSEQUENCES!
Well K that’s fantastic that you are the first person maybe in history that didn’t contribute a single thing towards the downfall of their marriage. Congratulations!
Mine wasn't angry with me bttrfly, only chronically dissatisfied with life. His inability to be happy manifested in many ways unrelated to me:
- constantly planning his next big adventure because he'd get depressed without something to focus on in the future
- getting in trouble at work because he couldn't be satisfied with his great career and his great job with exceptionally good hours for a surgical specialty and good money and national prestige, and because following the rules was beneath him. They even sent him to anger management once.
- constantly remodeling, even things that didn't need it (this has been even more of an issue since the divorce, when he has remodeled a single room with bath 3 times that I know of in ten years. Not redecorated, remodeled).
I contributed a LOT to him staying relatively sane and happy during our years together - I doubt he could have been married to anyone else for 24 years as successfully. But his inability to be satisfied also led to cheating, some of which I had no clue about at the time but that seems pretty clear now.
And bttrfly, if he never wanted the divorce then I guess he shouldn't have carried on a years long affair behind your back, should he? You didn't cause that. He was probably just mad because he wanted to have his cake and eat it too, and you ruined that when you figured out he was having an affair. Poor baby - he had CONSEQUENCES! And he didn't want CONSEQUENCES!
well, i knew he was "dating" but i had no idea she was the AP and still in the picture until 5 YEARS LATER.
My son knew immediately, kept it to himself and it's caused some serious damage to his psyche, as you know KML. I mean, exh was kissing me and telling me he loved me all the while.
What's most interesting to me is that he did EXACTLY what his mother did in his parents' marriage: cheated, left with no recourse or willingness to go to MC. What's REALLY interesting is that his mother has behaved since in a manner which has left all of us thinking that she never intended for the marriage to end, just for her to manipulate her husband so she would have "hand" from then on in the relationship. In her case it backfired.
It also seems from things exh has said and done that he possibly didn't expect it to go so far in our case either. I stopped the ILYs cold after our home sold. Something inside of me really broke at that point, and I wasn't so sure how much I wanted to stand, especially since I started to suspect that the whole thing was a massive manipulation. I don't tolerate being manipulated, as my mom did that a lot during my childhood. So I stopped the ILYs and held some firm boundaries which probably ticked him off. Our biggest problem, honestly, in hindsight was a power struggle between us. Oh, for a man who isn't threatened by a strong woman.
Well K that’s fantastic that you are the first person maybe in history that didn’t contribute a single thing towards the downfall of their marriage. Congratulations!
Not sure if you’re the person to ask LH but I honestly do not know. Would this be narcissistic behavior - someone believing they contributed nothing towards the downfall of their marriage?
Well K that’s fantastic that you are the first person maybe in history that didn’t contribute a single thing towards the downfall of their marriage. Congratulations!
Not sure if you’re the person to ask LH but I honestly do not know. Would this be narcissistic behavior - someone believing they contributed nothing towards the downfall of their marriage?
Don I don’t feel comfortable answering this question do to some recent events but I believe there is a saying about ducks that may assist you in your quest for information.
Our biggest problem, honestly, in hindsight was a power struggle between us. Oh, for a man who isn't threatened by a strong woman.
Bttrfly, can you really call it a power struggle when you are just being a normal human being with agency and he's a jerk who wants more than 50% of the power in the relationship just because he's "the man"? Unfortunately there are many weak men like that. Even today.
I'll say though, I haven't found it to be as big an issue in my post-divorce dating life as it was when I was in my twenties. Whether the times have changed a bit, or whether mature single men in their 40's - 60's have started to see that damsels in distress are a drag, or that my radar for picking men who aren't put off by strength and intelligence in a woman is better now - not sure.
On a completely different note - Mr. Big Lots got married! I'm so surprised - he was such a died in the wool Love Avoidant! (So much so that after I broke up with him, and he wanted date me again, I made him read an article about Love Avoidants. He showed it to his mother and she said "Yup! That's you!". ) She looks like a lovely woman and he looks happy - heck, he even changed his FB status to "Married" as soon as he announced their surprise destination wedding (not a surprise to his family who were there, I don't think, just not announced to his friends in advance). So that's a good sign and I hope it works out well for them!
Lol dyed not died - typing too fast
Also - if anybody wants a "feel good" cry, read today's Humans of New York. All the feelz.
On a completely different note - Mr. Big Lots got married!
Just curious...how long ago did you date him?
9 years I think? We didn’t date that long, but have remained friends. I was not impressed with his habit of making a date with me, then not showing up until 3 hours later, if at all, with no warning that he would be late (wasn’t work related either). Plus I was looking for something more than a booty call twice a month - that was NOT enough for me! So I called it off.
I did give him a second chance, on the condition that he read about Love Avoidance. But he was back to his old mode in no time at all, so I just told him it wasn’t right for me. I didn’t break his heart or anything. He’s super handsome and has no problem getting ladies. We stayed friends, plus once a year I check in with him because he once had a pituitary tumor removed, and because he didn’t have a doctor when I knew him, I ordered the follow up blood test that he was supposed to be getting. So every year the Tumor Registry at the University contacts me about his status, and I contact him to make sure he’s still asymptomatic.
I call him Mr Big Lots because he picked me up while shopping in Big Lots, plus he was 6’6”. (So he says - I think he lies about his height, I’m guessing more like 6’7” or maybe even 6’8”)
(Honestly, I was surprised when he asked for a second chance because I figured he just wasn’t that into me. But I met a guy in my morning coffee klatch at Starbucks who explained to me that he wouldn’t make a date with a woman on Monday for Friday night, because he wasn’t sure if he’d feel like it by Friday. So he’d wait until Friday to ask her, and if she was available, fine, if not, fine too. It really helped me understand how Love Avoidants think! )
T - We don't know if Josh's relationship is toxic. It's displaying Toxic traits NOW as all marriages do when they are falling apart. Rewriting of history happens on both sides of the fence. Only time will settle the muddy waters of emotions... but sadly most don't last here long enough for us to truly help them.
Exactly it is clear he doesn't want the marriage to end. Tell me CW how telling him his wife deserves to go out and find good sex is empathetic.
I stumbled on this flame war about me lol.
If I recall, the sex comment was in reaction to my statement post BD that I knew she was having an EA and wanted to travel to meet him. Because it's post BD, and S is clearly on the cards, she's entitled to find her happiness.
I'm pretty sure the relationship was toxic from the start. I specifically recall incidents early on, and during the entire M. Now maybe they were just infrequent incidents at the start. And over time they got more frequent. Or if I manned up, they would be just be infrequent incidents. Who knows.
FWIW, deep down I know M needs to end. It's just easier to hold onto the hope that she'll change.
Thanks for clarifying that, TT180.
T - We don't know if Josh's relationship is toxic. It's displaying Toxic traits NOW as all marriages do when they are falling apart. Rewriting of history happens on both sides of the fence. Only time will settle the muddy waters of emotions... but sadly most don't last here long enough for us to truly help them.
Exactly it is clear he doesn't want the marriage to end. Tell me CW how telling him his wife deserves to go out and find good sex is empathetic.
I stumbled on this flame war about me lol.
If I recall, the sex comment was in reaction to my statement post BD that I knew she was having an EA and wanted to travel to meet him. Because it's post BD, and S is clearly on the cards, she's entitled to find her happiness.
I'm pretty sure the relationship was toxic from the start. I specifically recall incidents early on, and during the entire M. Now maybe they were just infrequent incidents at the start. And over time they got more frequent. Or if I manned up, they would be just be infrequent incidents. Who knows.
FWIW, deep down I know M needs to end. It's just easier to hold onto the hope that she'll change.
With all due respect the many posts aren't about you specifically, but rather are about someone on a divorce busting board telling a poster their WAS has a right to go off and have sex with an AP. Let's not forget the real issue here. This is a divorce busting forum and we have posters telling people it's ok for their spouses to sleep with someone else. Not acceptable.
Especially when the poster is always whining he doesn't get empathetic responses.
Apparently I need a translator or something to read all these posts because I get a little lost somewhere along the way. As usual, I agree with bttrfly and much of what LH said as well. While I may not blindly agree that all affairs arise from anger, I certainly realize that some of them are. And while I would NEVER blame the person who was cheated on because I realize cheating is about the person doing it, not the one it is being done to, there are those occasions where issues between the partners causes one to go astray. Like bttrfly, my xh cheated on me so I really can only speak to my personal experience. He asked for a divorce, claimed it was all about him and how unhappy he was, but morphed into being all my fault along the way, and then I found out after our divorce was final that he'd been cheating when his new girlfriend started posting their relationship all over facebook claiming he was the love of her life. Were there things that I did or could have done differently that would've made him happy? In retrospect, absolutely. I didn't drive him to cheat, but some of my actions did help create the unhappy environment he felt and I am sorry for that part. Did I own part of the issues in our marriage? Absolutely! Did I own 100% of them? Absolutely not! Here we are now going on 8 years later and while my XH isn't angry like some ex spouses are, he's not living the life of Riley that he thought ditching me for someone else would bring him. I mean, he's still dealing with the same medical and corresponding psychological issues that come with them and changing spouses certainly didn't change that. I can't speak for everyone else's marriage, but it would seem to me that, in many cases, there is fault on both sides. Sure, there are cases where one is abusive, an addict, or maybe one of those terribly charming folks that lies really well (note I did not say narcissist because I think that word gets used WAY too much when it may or may not be applicable). There are cases where good spouses are doing everything right and their partner falls out of love with them for whatever reason. As I have said many times, we are ALL different and have different experiences, so the confusion I get from some posts is when some people insist that the way their particular case went is how they all should be because that just isn't true.
Just to be clear for anyone who is confused, I'm not the one who said those things to TT180.
I just want to clarify that this is what I posted. My assumption is it ruffles K's knickers because it doesn't play along with her "she did nothing wrong" narrative.
"I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, or that you deserve the resentment, it could be completely irrational, but the point is that it exists."
Just to be clear for anyone who is confused, I'm not the one who said those things to TT180.
nope. you sure didn't. But I wanted to respond to his post here to clarify for him what I believe the real issue is.
But I have come to believe more and more that a cheater who carries on a long-term affair is abusing their spouse and revealing a character defect that is not compatible with a good marriage. It's the act of lying repeatedly to your spouse, directly or through omission, making a fool of them, that to me is the dealbreaker. Even worse when they gaslight the innocent spouse, as so many do, into thinking it is somehow their fault. The ONLY person whose fault the cheating is, is the cheater. People who are unhappy can do the right thing and get divorced first, then date.
I've never been cheated on, and I get we never know our true boundaries until that happens, but I agree I don't see all affairs as dealbreakers. 1) I didn't consider my XW to be "cheating" when she slept with others after we moved out and I announced my intentions to divorce. 2) I wouldn't consider sleeping with others cheating in an open relationship, 3) I think I could forgive a one-time affair if the outcome wasn't super predictable based on the circumstances they entered into.
Funny meme today:
“I just got called “hot”. Actually, the full statement was “you’re one big hot mess” but I’m only focusing on the positive today.
Lolol
Nice belated Mother's Day/ birthday visit with my kids yesterday, we took a nice walk on the beach and got some nice pictures with the younger two (oldest was asleep by then, works graveyards).
Youngest son, the one who broke up with his girlfriend of a few months recently, was telling us more about the fallout. Even though he broke up with her as nicely as he could, she unleashed a torrent of bile on him. (Among other more vile things, she called him an Unhinged White Guy, which I think will be the name of my next punk band!). Of course, her unleashing the crazy has just made him more sure about his decision. He feels bad that she was hurt but he could see their relationship wasn't going to go anywhere, they couldn't resolve their arguments in a healthy way and now we can see why. I'm proud of him for making a healthy decision and not taking the bait when she insults him.
I made the delicious Guava Cake again and it is SO GOOD. I highly recommend looking up a recipe for it on the internet if you like to bake. It's best made the day before. It's a layer of cake, topped with a layer of cream cheese, sugar, vanilla and whipped cream, then that is topped with a layer of gel made from guava nectar. SOOO yummy, and actually not too overly sweet. My favorite cake ever. And easily made gluten free if you just use a GF cake mix for the base.
Sounds like your son made a wise choice to pull back from the relationship. Communication is SO important in a relationship and not being able to settle arguments in a healthy way would be tough for me. Calling him an "unhinged white guy" just seems out there, but I know a lot of people "fight" that way and I just don't get it. Interestingly, Sparky and I were just talking about how people fight yesterday because he said his mother had asked him if we ever fight. We've had disagreements that we talked through, but we have never had a huge, blow-out fight. Apparently his mom and dad fought a lot and to hear Sparky's version, it is because his mother was just downright unreasonable about everything and would just push and push and push until his dad couldn't take it anymore then he'd blow up. I suspect Sparky is a lot like that. I can definitely see where his mom would be a button pusher because she does it to Sparky. The difference is that Sparky and I talk through things and we NEVER get nasty. Apparently his mom is one of those bile unleashers when she's upset (and I have witnessed it toward him) like your son's xgf. I have just never been that way. Like I said, Sparky and I disagree but I would NEVER call him a name. That was part of our conversation...I might jokingly call him an a-hole or more likely a smart a$$ (both of which he readily admits to being), but I would never do it in the heat of argument when it could be taken in a harmful way. His mom is just astounded that we don't fight, but we're both older and have honed our communication skills so it isn't necessary for us to argue much. We can disagree and talk about what we disagree about in a respectful and civilized manner.
Yes, I'm proud of him for recognizing their pattern wasn't healthy and he wasn't able to change it on his own - now we have a better idea of why. He didn't feel it was fair to keep dating her if he didn't see their way to a long term relationship, and I'm proud of him for recognizing that too.
Funny side story - recently he was hanging out at a local place with his dog and with a guy friend and three women approached him (the dog is a major chick magnet) one of whom it turned out my son knew slightly from years ago. One of her friends decided she liked my son and they had a nice time talking together. Finds out later that his guy friend and this woman had just matched on Tinder that afternoon lol (just a match, they weren't meeting up for a date or anything). My son did not mean to steal her out from under his friends' nose!
Wow - just watched a very good documentary on Netflix - Wormwood. About that case in the 50's where an American scientist died by jumping out a window after being dosed with LSD in a government experiment - except that's not actually what happened at all. Fascinating story but also a very well done documentary about his son's search for the truth.
Another recommendation for TV watching, if you have HBO Max - the new series of the Time Traveler's Wife. I much prefer it over the Rachel McAdams movie version. The first episode incorporates a lot of the beautiful writing from the book. It's really a meditation on relationships.
Middle son texted me yesterday about a financial request. It's something that may help him with his medical condition, and so I want to help him. But it's yet another example of where his father is a cheap jerk who is so unlikely to help with the expense that son doesn't even want to contact him, or allow me to contact him. Which leaves me, of course, to foot the entire bill, which I can do, but only by postponing certain minor house repairs and keeping my own budget very tight. Just another way in which my ex is still sticking it to me financially. It would be much easier for me to cover half of this expense rather than the whole. But it is what it is. GRRRRR.
Had a little pleasant text chat with the first guy I dated after my ex left. (He's the one who broke up with me to date his old high school love, and is still with her - sort of. In a Love Avoidant way where they live 10 hours apart and she comes to visit him occasionally). We are still friends and stay slightly in touch.
We reminisced a bit about our time together and it's nice to know he still remembers it fondly. I just couldn't compete with the nostalgia of his old love. It did get me to thinking, though, how would my life have turned out if she hadn't shown up? Would I have stayed in that relationship - he was darned sexy and intellectually compatible - or would I have left eventually because at some point I would have wanted more than he offered? I suspect the latter, although a long distance relationship like that doesn't look so bad to me anymore. He's one of two guys I dated since my divorce who were the most compatible - with the glaring exception that neither of them were really available for a real relationship, Love Avoidants both. Sigh.
CMM had his issues - several of them - but he loved me deeply and was not the least bit avoidant. Guess at this age you can't have everything.
{{{{{{Kml}}}}}}
Yes, you can. It may just take a bit.
xoxoxo
Perfect is the enemy of the good. If I'd waited around for the perfect guy I would have never been in a relationship in all these years since my divorce. Everybody has some baggage at this age.
Perfect is the enemy of the good. If I'd waited around for the perfect guy I would have never been in a relationship in all these years since my divorce. Everybody has some baggage at this age.
Indeed. The question is - do they acknowledge it and deal with it on their own or not.
That was part of the reasons B and I split. She had unresolved baggage with her xH - who as far as I know she went back to - and with her oldest son. I still think she did the smart and mature thing by recognizing that as well as some fundamental incompatibilities between us. I learned a lot from that time.
S on the other hand was more than happy to be the distressed damsel and just take and expected everyone one else to deal with her issues. Always had an excuse.
It's been more than a year and half since then. Still reluctant to put myself out there. I like to think I'm smarter, and certainly less trusting and optimistic than I was.
I certainly have my own baggage. I have two kids who while they don't take up a lot of time or effort, are a priority if they need me. I tend to work too many hours including on weekends, I'll spend hours doing things that I could probably just hire someone to do. I'm attached to my house and the area I live in and wouldn't be interested in moving etc etc. Things that would make me incompatible with some people. I've also noticed a disturbing tendency to neglect to close the bathroom door
A neighbour of mine once opined that she felt that the longer someone lives alone, the more that they like it. Certainly seems to be the case for me.
kml,
Had a little pleasant text chat with the first guy I dated after my ex left.
We are still friends and stay slightly in touch.
Just curious...purely friends, or might there be a "keep the connection as a backup plan" aspect?
Perfect is the enemy of the good. If I'd waited around for the perfect guy I would have never been in a relationship in all these years since my divorce. Everybody has some baggage at this age.
Indeed. The question is - do they acknowledge it and deal with it on their own or not.
You both make great points.
A neighbour of mine once opined that she felt that the longer someone lives alone, the more that they like it. Certainly seems to be the case for me.
I wonder the same, plus does the long period of independence make it harder to merge lives and compromise?
Just curious...purely friends, or might there be a "keep the connection as a backup plan" aspect?
Just friends. It's been 12 years.
So - an odd phenomenon. I’ve been obsessed for the last few weeks with watching Boys Over Flowers. First the very popular Korean version, then the 2018 Chinese remake of the original Meteor Garden version, then the Japanese version, then just started the original 2001 Taiwanese version.
For those who don’t know, these are all tv series based on a popular Japanese manga, about a plucky girl of modest means who ends up attending a school for the scions of uber-wealthy families. The top of the school pecking order is 4 very wealthy boys, childhood friends, dubbed F4, and admired and feared by their classmates, because the leader of the pack is a bully.
The plucky girl stands up to him, eventually administering either a round kick to his head or a punch to his jaw, depending on the version. This actually commands his respect, compared to all his fawning, simpering admirers, and he pursues her. She is not impressed by him or his wealth, and much of the show is not just about their star-crossed love (his dragon mom does not approve) but also how, through her example and with the help of his friends, he becomes a better man.
The question is - why am I so drawn to this story? I’m not usually a reader of romance novels or watcher of Hallmark movies. I do love Jane Austen and there’s something a bit reminiscent of her in this story. I’m not depressed - sad, still, over CMM’s death, but not depressed.
Is it because I identify with the girl? Is it because of the sweet romantic scenes? Is it just good escapism (but I’ve been watching plenty of other escapist stuff)?
I don’t tend to be obsessive, so it’s sorta peculiar behavior for me.
Yesterday was 6 months since CMM chose to exit this mortal coil. I posted some photos of him - every one shows him gazing at me behind the camera with love. He was a difficult, complicated person, but his love for me was true.
Maybe that's the key to why I'm so obsessed with Boys Over Flowers right now. The male lead is also a difficult, complicated character (in other ways than CMM) but his love for the female lead is true.
Trigger warning though - the Korean version is delightful, but some of the other versions - especially the Thai version - have a lot of violence and some domestic violence in them.
Wow - I just got a call from a favorite patient of mine. A sweet elderly woman, her husband is a veterinarian and he always comes in with her, they are a charming, devoted couple. And he got murdered last night while working late in his veterinary office.
Life is short and unpredictable, people. Tell the people in your life you love them, and don't put your life on hold - get out and live it.
Oh dear God, how horrible for her!
What an awful situation for your person. May she find peace somehow in the craziness.
Omigosh--that's insane.
I hope she's able to pull through this. Aye, carpe diem!
Turns out he wasn't working late - happened at 3:30 in the afternoon. They think he interrupted a burglary. Died of a head wound.
probably trying to steal drugs. horrible. i hope she can get through this.
Murdered? Omg. That's shocking. I hope your favorite patient can work through the grief. That's horrible.
Life is short and unpredictable, people. Tell the people in your life you love them, and don't put your life on hold - get out and live it.
Indeed. And hug your little ones!
Tonight I’m going to see Carlos Santana and Earth Wind and Fire. I’ve had these tickets for almost three years! I bought these tickets before Covid with plans to take CMM. I’m disappointed he didn’t get to see them, but looking back, I did manage to take him to a few other concerts before Covid.
Instead I’m taking my friend Survival Goddess, whom I met on these boards a long, long time ago.
Enjoy! Sounds like it will be a great show.
Hugs to you on the sad anniversary of CMM and I’m so sorry to hear about your patient’s husband. So horrible and unnecessary.
Hope the concert is a blast!
EL
The concert was great. The positivity and love from both bands was the healing our country needs. Cindy Blackman, the drummer for Carlos Santana (and his wife) is a wonder.
Check out the video on YouTube for the Carlos Santana/Chris Stapleton song Joy and you’ll have an idea of the vibe.
As mentioned before, I’ve been binge watching Asian rom coms and dramas for the last few weeks. Six months out from CMMs death, I’m really feeling his absence.
I think what is appealing to me about these shows is that they are filmed from the female gaze, and they usually dwell on the sweet little firsts in a relationship. The first time you hold hands, the first kiss, the first confession of love. It brings back lots of memories of those moments early in a relationship, when you’re feeling that first thrill of liking someone and them liking you back.
So I thought I’d put here, for the guys discussing dating over on LHs thread, the little things that make a woman’s heart go pitter pat when first dating (assuming she’s interested in you and vice versa). Asian rom com tropes:
- hand holding. I’m not talking about fondling a woman’s hand at the dinner table so much as the grabbing her hand while you’re walking along. I have fond memories of the long-distance guy I first dated after my divorce, the first weekend I went to visit him, showing me around his small tourist town. He held my hand as we walked around. I guess it made me feel - special? reciprocated? - that we were walking around his home turf, where EVERY body knew him, with him holding my hand. Nice.
- chilly girlfriend. Seriously guys, if it’s the least bit chilly, take advantage of the opportunity to take your coat or jacket off and put it over her shoulders. It’s like wearing a hug. Makes a woman feel cared for. And if she likes your pheromones, she’s smelling them on that jacket and thinking how good you smell. In my temperate clime there are fewer opportunities but I remember my first boyfriend when I was 15 giving me his plaid button down shirt to wear as a jacket one chilly night (he had a t-shirt underneath). It was a well worn cotton madras plaid shirt and smelled deliciously of his pheromones -I don’t think I ever gave it back.
- face touching. The scenes where a guy wipes something off a girl’s mouth, or an eyelash off her cheek, or pushes her hair back out of her eyes. Sweet.
- that first kiss. Maybe it’s just me, but the guy who put his hand behind my neck or head as he leans in to kiss me - that just gets me.
I miss hand-holding. That only stopped after I found out about her affair.
Mind you I also miss holding my children's hands too. The cat's all well and fine but after a short while he starts gnawing on my hand ...
From at least this guy's point of view, it's a sign of / announcement of a level of commitment as well. It states "we are together" to all who witness it. Probably true from the woman's point of view too.
Yes that was what was so nice about that first post-D boyfriend holding hands with me in his small town. He ran a popular restaurant there and everyone knew him. I’m sure he probably had some ex-lovers there too. So it was a nice feeling that he was “announcing” I was with him.
Sigh. I really liked him. Maybe if his old high school love hadn't shown back up in his life we would still be together. But more likely I would have grown tired of of his Love Avoidant ways and wanted more than he can give. I’m happy I’ve been able to keep him as a friend in my life though. That may be better in the long run.
We held hands in court as we waited our turn ... and walked out hand in hand ... and kissed at the car ... wtf.
bttrfly, your ex was the king of Plan B gaslighting.
bttrfly, your ex was the king of Plan B gaslighting.
and furious at Plan B when she wouldn't comply.
He's someone who has always followed his feelings, however illogical or irresponsible those became. And, he's someone whose impulse control got less and less as he got deeper into his misery. Horrible FOO Fighter (thanks Own) role models. Had plenty of positive role models to follow as an adult, but for some reason that went south in his existential crisis, and he opted for the FOO Fighter methodology of life.
It can be a mind eff if someone isn't able to get some distance and perspective.
We have plenty of examples, one right here on this Post D board, who imho are far more entitled to that crown than my ex.
I was just entering tomorrows date in a planner and it dawned on me, tomorrow would have been my 38th wedding anniversary if we had stayed married. (Normally the day passes by without me even remembering it).
And instead of feeling nostalgia or regret, all I felt was a vague sense of “OMG, 38 years would have been WAAYYY to long to be married to him!” Lol. Guess I’m over it.
I’ve also been divorced now half as long as we were together. I’ve lived a lot in that time!
I’ve also been divorced now half as long as we were together. I’ve lived a lot in that time!
It's a big milestone. Enough time to compare life with them, compare life without them and be confident in the choices that we made. I noticed you attended Carlos Santana. I hope it was fun! Years ago my company invited him to play at our all-hands meeting. It was wild. When I hear him it feels like I'm listening to both modern music and music from my childhood.
Santana was fantastic - and his wife Cindy Blackman is an INCREDIBLE drummer. Earth Wind and Fire was great too. And spiritually, it felt like what we all need right now. It was the first night of the tour that has been delayed 2 years by Covid and they were all clearly SO ready to be back onstage!
KML, you are so dead on with the Asian romcoms! Have you ever seen Secret Garden, Descendants of the Sun, the Heirs, or Guardian, the Lonely Great God?
No, I’ll have to add them to my list. I’ve watched every version of Boys Over Flowers except for the Bollywood one, Business Proposal (which stars Dylan Wang from the 2018 Meteor Garden remake), Crash Landing on You, Something in the Rain, One Spring Night, just finishing Was It Love?, too many others to name. I need to start Pachinko just because I have such a crush on Lee Min- ho.
Oh the one with Dylan Wang was Her Private Life
Did you see Lee Min-ho in The King: Eternal Monarch? He was also in the Heirs. The male lead from Crash Landing starred in Secret Garden too. There are too many to see. The ones I named are all by the same scriptwriter; she's one of the powerhouses of Korean television. The finite number of episodes makes them so well-crafted.
Admittedly it is women's porn. But so long as I am aware of that I enjoy them hugely.
Where is Secret Garden streaming? Haven’t found that one yet.
Oh, looks like it's on Viki
Apsara, Oh My Venus is pretty hilarious too. On Viki.
(I’m also enjoying it because it’s the first time I’ve seen a main character having hypothyroidism as the plot premise).
People you meet along the way:
As y’all know, my dating life since my divorce has been - interesting! But one story I think I never told happened a couple years after my ex left, after my first post-divorce boyfriend broke up with me. A much younger guy approached me online (yes, I think he had some Mrs Robinson fantasy) and although it sounds creepy, it wasn’t - he was actually smart, and funny, and sweet, and adorable. We never met in real life (he lived a couple hours away at the time) but for a time we exchanged sexy fantasies and talked about life. Something I’d never done before or since but with him it felt safe and friendly and sexy, not creepy at all.
The sexy stuff stopped when I moved on to a new boyfriend, and he eventually married and moved home to the Midwest. We drifted out of touch for a bit but later he found me on Facebook and friended me. Everything is G rated now, but we have stayed friends and occasionally chat about life. I lost my mom, he lost his dad. We talk about movies (he’s a film editor) , politics, current events. This is an occasional thing, not frequent. We just happened to be chatting last night when the news about Shinzo Abe came out and we talked about that.
Anyway - my point is - if there wasn’t the age gap, and we had met when I was young? I think we would have been crazy about each other, and probably happy together. Instead, we just have this funny, warm friendship and mutual admiration society that anyone else might think is weird. But it’s lovely and one of the nicest things OLD ever brought me.
Being open to new experiences after my divorce has brought me some strange things, but this lovely friendship is one of the nicest strange things.
7 months since CMM’s passing, and the protective initial numbness is wearing off. This weekend I cried when the robot boyfriend died in my Korean drama. ( I’m not normally a crier).
Got the sad and shocking news that a man I know died suddenly of a heart attack yesterday. He was probably my age or a little older. He had a radio show back in Connecticut and was a big fan of my bestie who I play music with. He interviewed us for his show last time we were touring there. We were Facebook friends and he was a genuinely nice guy who was friends with everybody.
He had white hair and since I’ve been growing out my white hair, he always had encouraging comments. Comments on his FB page from others show he was always this kind and nice with everyone.
Remember, everyone - none of us are promised tomorrow. Don’t let focusing only your past keep you from living today and tomorrow.
sorry for your loss K xoxo
wise words
Had a chat with one of the guys out in the plant about this today when we were talking about the ladders to be climbed for some of the maintenance work and how us "old guys" need to be careful.
It certainly does make you re-think your priorities.
I try to live my life like I will never die but have everything in place in case it happens this afternoon.