Last thread: After Life
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2928784&page=1Reading an interesting article today about some research into online dating. (Online dating is now the second most frequent way heterosexual people meet their mates, and I would bet that if you stratified by age, it's probably the number one way that people over 40 meet.)The research shows two interesting things. One is that interracial dating increased significantly with the intro of online dating, beyond what would be expected by previous trends and changing demographics. That doesn't surprise me. What did surprise me is evidence that marriages that started with online dating have lower rates of breakups. So for all you naysayers about online dating, I think that research is pretty reassuring. Here's an excerpt:
"Meanwhile, research into the strength of marriage has found some evidence that married couples who meet online have lower rates of marital breakup than those who meet traditionally. That has the potential to significantly benefit society. And it’s exactly what Ortega and Hergovich’s model predicts.
Of course, there are other factors that could contribute to the increase in interracial marriage. One is that the trend is the result of a reduction in the percentage of Americans who are white. If marriages were random, this should increase the number of interracial marriages, but not by the observed amount. “The change in the population composition in the U.S. cannot explain the huge increase in intermarriage that we observe,” say Ortega and Hergovich.
That leaves online dating as the main driver of this change. And if that’s the case, the model implies that this change is ongoing.
That’s a profound revelation. These changes are set to continue, and to benefit society as result. "
As for my thread title, I'm continuing the process of purging things from my house, and feeling lighter with every load that goes to the Goodwill or every item given away on my local Buy Nothing group.
I'm also talking to my adult kids about maybe planning a long weekend trip somewhere local in a few months - someplace everyone can drive to. We haven't taken a family vacation since the divorce. There are a variety of destinations within easy driving distance, mountains, beaches, desert, cities - its mostly a matter of meeting certain restrictions and getting everyone to agree on a place. (Restrictions include the place must allow small dogs, and must have good mattresses for my son with Ehlers Danlos. Any hiking would have to be easy for that son, or at least have an easy option. I'd be happy just to lounge by a pool at a resort, but if we go that route, there needs to be other things to do nearby. ) It might be difficult to get all 3 to agree on the same kind of place, but I'll send out feelers.
I’m not surprised by this research KML (although my XH and I met online). Because it is online, it gives people the opportunity to meet people outside of their usual social circles. It is only natural this would lead to more exposure to people of different ages, races, religions, nationalities, etc… I think that is definitely a benefit. However, the down side of that is that it gives married people way more opportunity to cheat on their spouses so I think it likely contributes to the breakup of marriages as well. Just my opinion… don’t know if there is research on that particular subject.
RE: the family vacay. Having just returned from one, I highly recommend it.
Hey Past Life Recall, posting here to you instead of your thread. I'm sorry I forgot you were trying to keep things on the slow burner like you did before. It just ticks me off when long-term affair partners seem to show no shame whatsoever, especially once they've gotten to know the kids who were hurt by their and WASs behavior. I'm so thankful I haven't had to deal with that because clearly I am NOT that generous a spirit. Also thankful that my kids were all but out of the house (youngest was halfway through his senior year in high school when my ex left) so I never had to deal with custody etc. I'm sorry you still have to deal with this for a few more years, but it will get much better when contact is almost unnecessary.
My best new discovery is my local Buy Nothing group on FB. It's a great way to find appropriate homes for things that you no longer need but that aren't items that are really appropriate for the goodwill. (Example - half a case of Ensure). It would also be a great way for someone of limited means to find furniture, household items etc. for free. (Note: It would be really DANGEROUS for hoarders or shopaholics though!) I have several items I will be giving away this weekend. Every time I get more stuff out of my house I feel lighter. Wish I could just take a month off and devote my self to working on my house and on various errands! Still I'm chipping away most weekends at my long to do list. We Americans have SO much excess stuff, especially here in the suburbs.
When I started by purging my closet at the start of the pandemic, it really put me into a mindset. I think the grand total of new purchases I've made since (besides books, cleaning tools and things that get used up) were one pair of running shoes, one blouse, some running shorts and leggings on a screaming Costco deal, and some undies. I look at every new purchase as potential clutter and try to get rid of at least an equivalent amount of stuff if I buy something.
My sister is involved in doing the same at her home in another state. Every load of stuff that leaves the house leaves us feeling a little lighter. And with every nook or cranny that gets purged and organized, I feel a little lighter emotionally too. Next up is the rest of my garage. But this weekend I'm not sure I'll get any purging done, tentative plans to drive up to see my youngest son, and maybe middle son on the same trip.
What do YOU need to let go of - mentally or physical stuff?
kml
I am a big fan of minimizing. I have been letting go of all kinds of things since STBXW left 2.5 years ago. It is so freeing to come home to a decluttered space. If/when I ever look to get into a relationship again I will definitely look for someone who thinks along these lines.
T
First and foremost, speaking as someone living in a high stress situation with reduced income, TAKE THE VACATION! By all means, include your kids, but if they can't or don't want to go, go anyway. I'm telling you, if I had the means at all at the moment, I would be OUT of here even if it was just for a couple of days. Do it....you deserve it!
As far as the letting go and purging, I know exactly what you mean. Monday, I focused on finishing up getting our living room decorated (unpacking boxes of pictures and knick knacks that were stored in the back bedroom in the process) and I also cleaned out the small coat closet in the living room that we had just opened the door and shoved a couple of boxes in. I purged stuff that was mine, stuff that was Sparky's, stuff that I have no clue who it belonged to but it isn't ours anymore. LOL It was a GREAT sense of accomplishment.
When I divorced and moved from our marital home to a much smaller (and super cute) duplex, I purged a crap ton of stuff. Some of it was stuff I had owned prior to my marriage, some was stuff we accumulated together that he left because he just didn't want to deal with it. We had personalized Christmas tree ornaments and wedding decor and all kinds of stuff like that. Some got thrown in the trash, some got taken to the local thrift store, some got given directly to people who could use it. When I get ready to move here a few years ago, I went through and did an even harder purge so as not to move a bunch of stuff that never gets used. Much to the dismay of some, I threw out all my old high school yearbooks. Why was I keeping those? It wasn't like I sat around looking through them. It was just something else that my kids would have to go through some day and discard because they wouldn't want to keep them since they wouldn't know most of the people. It was very freeing!
My Monday project coming up next week is to start to tackle the cabinets in the dining room. There are some nice built in cabinets that I know are just full of stuff that belonged to Sparky's grandmother, so some of my boxes with seasonal serving ware, a set of Christmas dishes handed down by one of my favorite aunts, and other such items are still boxed in a closet in the utility room because I have no place to store them. We are letting that ish go! There are a few pieces Sparky mentioned wanting to keep for sentimental reasons, but much of it will go to our local thrift store. We are also putting together a large box of odds and ends for the daughter of one of my former co-workers and friend whose daughter's house burned down last weekend. So, even if it isn't stuff that is her taste, it will be stuff she can use to get by until they can get settled again and start rebuilding their own stuff.
I don't have nearly the issue I used to have in getting rid of physical stuff. I get rid of stuff all the time, which is why Sparky has to let me make the final cull decisions (he holds on to the weirdest stuff!) but mentally....well, THAT is a whole other question....................LOL I won't hijack any further to respond to that other than to say there is a whole crap ton of stuff I could likely benefit from letting go of mentally.
Ooh, high school yearbooks! Not sure I'm there yet!! lol. But as I get older, I'll definitely have to rethink thingd like that and get a little closer to Swedish death cleaning.
Ooh, high school yearbooks! Not sure I'm there yet!! lol. But as I get older, I'll definitely have to rethink thingd like that and get a little closer to Swedish death cleaning.
Yeah, I mean, I guess I get it. A LOT of people were surprised when I said I did that, but they sat on a shelf in a closet and I hadn't looked at them in literally years. So why just hang on to something taking up space in the closet that served literally no purpose. In this day of facebook and all other kinds of social media, I can keep up with the folks who matter to me and the rest I don't remember or care to be in contact with anyway. I also went through old pictures and threw out any that were blurry, severely faded, contained people that either of my parents would say things like "oh, I don't know....that may be MY great, great grandfather's neighbor's 2nd cousin" LOL.
I'm in a weird position here myself with oodles of room and not much stuff so I have little real motivation to reduce things. I could probably move out of this 4 bedroom house and into a 1 bedroom apartment without having to toss much.
As he's demolishing the old farm-house, my youngest brother passed on a few of the things that my mother had kept. Old textbooks, all my old report cards etc. And yes, I have my old high-school yearbooks on a shelf around here somewhere. I'm not sure what to do with the old textbooks and such because tossing books feels like sacrilege so they're on a shelf for now. 40 year old textbooks on technology are undoubtedly rather dated although the mathematics and physics are probably still relevant unlike the law and economics texts too.
My Dad was a bit of a packrat hanging on to things because "they might be useful" which as a farmer made a lot of sense. I know that I had a stash of buckets that cat litter had come in "you never know when you might need a bucket" after-all
Turns out that we needed buckets at the plant and so they've been re-homed and I felt validated
I do laugh going around the plant - visitors must think that we have a bunch of incontinent cats. They would certainly know what the preferred brand of cat litter is.
I also went through old pictures and threw out any that were blurry, severely faded, contained people that either of my parents would say things like "oh, I don't know....that may be MY great, great grandfather's neighbor's 2nd cousin" LOL.
One of my cousins sat down with my grandmother a number of years ago and went through pictures and wrote down who was who - usually the animals were named and the people she had more trouble remembering. I scanned them all in and shared them with the various cousins and my kids. I'm glad that that heritage that was sitting in a box in the attic of the old farm-house was able to be shared.
Ooh, high school yearbooks! Not sure I'm there yet!! lol. But as I get older, I'll definitely have to rethink thingd like that and get a little closer to Swedish death cleaning.
This is an interesting concept and one I can appreciate. Being a middle-aged fat guy living alone with his cat, I could theoretically pop my clogs at any time. I've had the conversations with the kids about what would need to be done and they have made it plain that other than a few things that there's nothing here they want so there's nothing much that I'm holding on to to pass on.
Perhaps that's one of the traps that some people fall into - accumulating things to pass on vs having things that they love and enjoy. I know that my ex in-laws made a big deal about who was supposed to get what. I was sooo glad to not be part of that sh!t-show when they passed. Certainly would have been quite the introduction into that dysfunction for OM though. I still get some feelings of satisfaction that that relationship was dragged out into the light where many of her relatives wouldn't have had any clue that anything had happened.
Had a nice visit with my youngest son this weekend. We had a good heart-to-heart chat about his current girlfriend - I think he's going to break up with her. It seemed well thought out and calm, which is a change for him - previous relationships often were ones where he was dumped and clung on with WAY too much OCD texting, or there was some fiery ending. In this relationship he is just seeing that their fights seem to repeat themselves, and that when he tries to discuss their differences and how to better handle things, she just deflects, deflects, deflects.
He's also seeing that she's impulsive in a rather immature way - and somewhat controlling. Example: she wanted him to start parting his hair differently. Now - first of all, my son is VERY fashion conscious, so he's definitely NOT doing anything with his hair that isn't totally cool. Second - he HAS to part his hair on that side because he has a cute little cowlick smack dab in the middle of his hairline. His hair looks just FINE! If that was the only thing I'd say no big deal, but apparently this is just emblematic of other things that are also very controlling. Like she doesn't want to stay at his place because it's too messy - I gotta tell you, I defy you to find a house with 3 young men that looks neater than theirs! Everything in its place, everyone takes their shoes off when they enter the house, nicely decorated, well organized - it looks great! So he stays at her place all the time, and then if they come to his house and it IS messy, it's hardly his fault, because he hasn't been there!
They've only been dating for about 7-8 months, and while on paper they seemed to be a good match, he feels it's clear that this is not going to be a good fit for him long term, and he doesn't feel it would be fair to keep the relationship going. She meanwhile lost a roommate and tried to talk him into moving in somewhere new with her (umm, no).
I'm proud of him that he seems to have tried to resolve their differences in a mature way, and is seeing that they may not be a good enough fit for a long term relationship. And mature enough to see that, although he doesn't want to hurt her feelings, it would be worse if he lets the relationship continue too long. And glad that he feels close enough to me to talk this all out.
FB memories showed me a photo from a year ago - CMM and me visiting my friend who had the heart transplant and his wife. CMM looked pretty good then - not like someone who would be dead in nine months.
Cancer is terrible. But I feel privileged to have walked that journey with him.
Finally got my new carpet shampooer out and cleaned the carpet in my family room. It’s a lot of work! Thankfully I have my oldest son to help me move furniture. It looks great now though - I plan to do one room at a time. Bit by bit.
I hope spring brings light and hope to all here. Do something nice for someone today.
UGH - prayers please. My friend's husband just had a chest xray which shows what is likely an aggressive lung cancer. I'm devastated for them, and it's also bringing me flashbacks of the day CMM was diagnosed. Nonsmoker, fit guy in his early 60's.
Hold your loved ones tight.
Really sorry to hear this KML. Cancer s*x. Lost a high school friend to cancer about a month ago and just found out another one, my roommate our first year of college, has terminal breast cancer. Both friends are (were) 53 years old. I’m pretty sure I will get it at some point in my life given my family history. Just a question of when and what kind. (((KML)))
DV - keep your vitamin D levels up. Pretty good research about low vitamin D as a risk factor for breast cancer and other cancers (my old professor in medical school was the first person to notice this association in the 1980's).
Wow. Just - WOW. Y'all have powerful prayers! Ya must have some kind of direct line to the almighty because my friend's husband's CT scan today was - CLEAR!!! What the radiologist read as an almost 4 cm new nodule on his chest xray was - nothing! An illusion!!! PHEW!
All there was was a little tiny bit of mucus plugging in one spot. We're thinking now that maybe his profuse nightsweats for the past 2 months might just be due to a little atelectasis?
So relieved!!!
BTW - anyone who likes time travel scifi out there - I am really enjoying this German series Dark on Netflix. It's pretty well dubbed. Set in a small German town next to a nuclear power plant. It involves missing children and time travel - I won't say anything more. But I'm digging it. The further in it gets, the more the paradoxes of time travel emerge.
I'll check it out. I love legit science fiction like Interstellar and The Martian. Fantasy sci-fi where "science" is magic doesn't do it for me. 'Dark' sounds interesting.
You'll probably like this then.
We (my children and I) have seen already several episodes last year and we really enjoyed but didn’t finish it. Thanks for the reminder. I’ll add it to my list again.
Middle son called me last night, he's bummed because his roommate is moving away. This was a really good, compatible roommate. And my son has a lot of prerequisities which can make it hard to find the right roommate. He's very sensitive to chemical smells and so needs a roommate who is willing to forgo scented products. (This is a medical need in his case, not just being fussy). He works from home so he cannot have a roommate who is noisy during the day. He needs someone who is LGBTQ friendly. And he has a physical disability which makes certain things difficult, so it's a plus if he has a roommate who is willing to take the trash down the stairs. Luckily, it is a nice apartment, a good deal in a nice area. I'm hoping he can find a grad student at the local university.
And, of course, if he cannot find a suitable roommate in time, it will be me who offers financial support to cover the gap, not my tightwad ex. Grrrrr.
Made a new cake yesterday - a recipe that I found a while ago that sounded like something my oldest would love. I finally promised I would make it this weekend, and my middle son happened to be coming down. It’s called Hawaiian Guava cake. And it was a HIT! They couldn’t stop raving about it!
Most recipes I’ve seen online are similar, so just Google them. A sheet cake - strawberry or yellow or white. Then a layer of frosting made from sugar, cream cheese and cool whip (I’m sure you could use real homemade whipped cream, I just was following the recipe this first time). . Then a layer of guava gel on top. SO good! Definitely something we will be making again for special occasions.
This year, we have a hummingbird nest in the hedge along my front walkway again. The eggs just hatched 4 days ago. The azaleas nearby are in full glorious bloom - probably a big draw for the hummingbird parents.
Tired this weekend - feeling like I could sure use a month off! But with retirement looming in 2-3 years (my business partner’s likely timeline) an extended sabbatical doesn’t make much sense. Better to plow through. I am planning that mini vacation with my kids though, and looking forward to my week in Hawaii in October (Covid willing!).
Just wish the house fairy could come and organize all the repairs and maintenance work that needs to be done around the house.
I was reminded of this quote today:
"If you inherently long for something, become it first. If you want gardens, become the gardener. If you want love, embody love. If you want mental stimulation, change the conversation. If you want peace, exude calmness. If you want to fill your world with artists, begin to paint. If you want to be valued, respect your own time. If you want to live ecstatically, find the ecstasy within yourself. This is how to draw it in, day by day, inch by inch." Victoria Erickson (no idea who that is, the quote was attributed to her).
Good advice for us I think.
A good meme today:
Don't let anybody treat you like free salsa.
You are guacamole, baby. You. Are.Guacamole.
I was reminded of this quote today:
"If you inherently long for something, become it first. If you want gardens, become the gardener. If you want love, embody love. If you want mental stimulation, change the conversation. If you want peace, exude calmness. If you want to fill your world with artists, begin to paint. If you want to be valued, respect your own time. If you want to live ecstatically, find the ecstasy within yourself. This is how to draw it in, day by day, inch by inch." Victoria Erickson (no idea who that is, the quote was attributed to her).
Good advice for us I think.
Love this so, so much KML!! Thanks for sharing it.
An old classmate died of ovarian cancer today. One important thing for LBSs to remember - life is uncertain, don’t let your past with your ex rob you of your present.
sorry for your loss Kml xoxoxo
Her death made me especially glad that CMM was able to die peacefully at home in his own bed. Her death was tortured, in the hospital. CMM had chosen to take advantage of the Medical Aid in Dying act that we have in our state. Any doubts I might have had about him taking that course have been firmly erased by seeing what she went through in the last weeks of her life. Everybody’s choice is theirs, but I have peace that he made the right choice for him. And I’m grateful that we live in a state where that was available to him.
Most people in our state don’t even know we have that option available. And I found out after the fact that his oncologist would never have been able to discuss that option with him, because they are affiliated with a Catholic hospital and are forbidden from discussing it.
I was raised Catholic, and I understand the mindset. I’m not sure what I would choose for myself. But when someone is days or weeks away from an inevitable death, what value is there in enduring more torture? I’m grateful that I was able to be fully present with CMM at his death. He didn’t die in the middle of the night, unable to wake me up. He didn’t die while I was out grocery shopping. He was not alone when he died, I held one hand, my son held the other.
Death is something that we as a society do not deal with well. I know a lot of my attitudes towards it have been formed both by my upbringing and also by the writing of Terry Pratchett.
I've known from when I was a boy where I will be buried. The kids and I would often go out and "visit the relatives" - something I still do on my own. I purchased my own plot about a year or so ago and my wishes are clearly expressed to the kids. Something I encourage everyone to do. My xW was phobic about it though refusing to even have our wills done up, something that especially when we had young kids was in hindsight, pretty irresponsible.
Sir Terry wrote one bit "I wish to die like a wizzard. Reluctantly."
But a lot of his writings both fiction and non accept death as an inevitable part of the journey of life. He wasn't a believer in an after-life and neither am I. But I can certainly understand the idea that at some point that I will find life a burden that I will want to lay down in a time and manner of my own choosing.
So sorry that your friend had so many struggles at the end. I think it really depends on the practitioner they are dealing with. You would know better than me, but I would imagine that some look to preserving life at any cost whereas others look to the patient's comfort and dignity. I remember when my grandmother passed that the staff just worked on keeping her comfortable and she left us in a medicated sleep with her daughter at her side (my Dad had passed some years earlier).
((kml))
I think because she was a physician herself, she was able to talk them into some treatments that were perhaps in retrospect ill-advised. They did finally decline to give her any more chemo.
So sorry to read about your former classmate. I wish our state gave us a choice as to how we would like to die...but we aren't so lucky as your state.
My condolences for your loss!
Sorry to hear this KML. My condolences. Having watched both my parents suffer needlessly a the end of their lives, my dad in particular, I, too, believe in having the choice. (((HUGS)))
Anybody else watching This Is Us? Last night's episode really got to me.
What kind of show is it?
The series follows the lives of siblings Kevin, Kate, and Randall (known as the "Big Three"), and their parents Jack and Rebecca Pearson. It takes place mainly in the present and uses flashbacks to show the family's past. Kevin and Kate are the two surviving members from a triplet pregnancy, born six weeks premature on Jack's 36th birthday in 1980;
I'm watching "Stranger Things", and I re-listened through Hamilton on my road trip!
It's a really really good family drama. But last night's episode dealt with divorce. Hit me hard.
I love, love, LOVE “This is Us”. I haven’t watched last night’s episode yet but I’d be shocked if I were wrong if I guessed whose divorce was involved. This show is just SO well written. It is my weekly ugly cry because, man…..I know they are tv characters but they are just so believable. (A testament to the writers and actors alike.) I hate is ending but also glad that they aren’t dragging it out longer than they should.
One of my favourite shows of all time. Haven’t yet watched the latest episode but thanks for the heads up. I will prepare myself accordingly. (((HUGS)))
Wow - phone call from a friend yesterday. She’d gotten herself involved with a guy who seemed great - gave her presents, said all the right things. He was either someone she knew growing up, or a friend of those friends. After a few months she moved to his state to live with him.
Over the next few months he became verbally abusive and controlling. That phone he gave her? Had tracking software installed so he could see everything she was doing.
She got smart and one day while he was at work she packed up her cats and drove back to her home many states away. But when he showed up all apologetic she let him into her place. Later she catches him changing passwords on her accounts and she kicks him out. He smashed her phone because she was trying to call the police and proceeds to post revenge porn and harass her such that she loses her job.
She’s got a restraining order and a legal case against him. He’s a police officer which makes it extra scary. She’s getting a handle on her codependency issues.
Just another cautionary tale for middle aged dating, and another reason not to live with somebody for at least a year!
Also - be extra wary dating police officers. Now, there are lots of fine police officers, my brother was one. But there definitely are two issues that can come up. One is their irregular hours do provide lots of opportunity for infidelity and that happens a lot. The other is that sociopaths are also drawn to the profession and not always successfully weeded out. In this guy’s case, he’s a sociopath with a gun.
If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Take your time to get to know someone you’re dating.
If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Take your time to get to know someone you’re dating.
On the other hand, how many of us can raise our hands and say that our ex-spouse was someone we thought we knew who then did the unthinkable.
I have no actual proof but from the stories I've read it feels like there's a similar number of people who have split between those who jumped right in and those who waited and waited.
Some people, especially abusers are good at either concealing who they are or controlling the narrative. And yes - some people are really good at believing what they want to believe.
I used to say about my xW that she was very good at being charming and sweet for a short period of time but couldn't sustain it. Although she and OM are no into year 7 so there's that.
Your friend's story is certainly a cautionary tale. Long distance relationships can allow for people to only show their best selves which is one of the several reasons I would never get involved in one. And certainly there are professions, generally I believe ones where people have the training to be an authority such as police, doctors (hi kml!), teachers where they can tend to carry that into the relationship and also where infidelity is more common - or so I understand.
College professors - definitely a risk for dating students , even though that is frowned upon. Mostly about the availability of nubile young bodies who think you’re special.
Doctors - there’s definitely an issue of unique job stresses that someone also in the profession may understand better. Mostly though I think it’s the issue of nerdy guys who couldn’t get the girl when they were younger, now having enough money/prestige/power to make them attractive to other women. And like police officers, their hours make cheating easy especially if they take night call. So easy to say “I’m on call tonight” or “there’s an emergency at the hospital” and how would the spouse know otherwise?
That being said, I’m having trouble thinking of other med school friends who are divorced. One dumped her husband during residency, but all the rest I’m friendly with are still married after 20-30 years. Maybe I don’t know enough surgeons ?
In our 20’s, a lot of us didn’t have the knowledge to recognize the red flags. We can now though, if we use our heads and don’t get swept up in the emotions. Yeah, my ex looked good, but there were red flags.
College professors! Yep! My ex, AKA "Professor Playboy" definitely was having inappropriate relationships, meetings, "glasses of wine", etc. with his students during most of our 21 year marriage.
He also had a very irregular schedule that involved lots of driving to different campuses. I never knew when to expect him home for dinner, but at the time all of that was brushed aside as either traffic or staff meetings.
Yeah, S.G., your ex was a classic example.
My ex had plenty of opportunity outside the office but the affair of his that originally brought me here was with a traveling nurse on temporary assignment. Fortunately for me she moved on to another assignment after a few months - undoubtedly upset that whatever lie he told her originally about the state of his marriage wasn't true.
Wow. Oh wow. Can't believe I just read this. Some male news personality on a certain station that shall remain nameless admitted on television that, in order to get his (now) wife to date him, he let the air out of her tires so that he could offer her a ride home! Not only that, but when questioned by a co-host, his answer implied that it wasn't the first time he'd tried that tactic! (Never mind the fact that he was married at the time and she was a young coworker 14 years his junior!).
So ladies - I can't believe I have to say this, but if you find the air let out of your tires, do NOT accept a ride from someone who happens to come by, even if you know him! Call someone you trust! This is so far off the creepiness scale, I can't even!!!!!
Anybody listening to this Johnny Depp/ Amber Heard trial? The most ill-advised thing ever. They both sound like they were awful in this relationship.
Ugh - watched a little bit more of the Johnny Depp/ Amber Heard thing. I can only imagine how many people advised Depp against this. No possible good comes out of them reading his horrible texts in court, even IF Amber Heard was abusive to him (which it sounds like she was, but he was awful too). One text he sent to his property manager (I think) said he hoped "they find her dead body in the trunk of a Honda Civic". And that wasn't NEARLY the worst thing said.
He should have resurrected his career by getting clean and doing a mea culpa interview with Oprah or someone. That would have helped him financially much more than winning this case (unlikely) would have. And he's suing her for defamation, and in the process revealing SO much more bad stuff about himself that people will never be able to forget. Just stupid.
I haven’t been following it but sounds like they are two people with a lot of growing up to do.
The guy letting air out of his crush’s tires so he could offer her a ride home? Beyond creepy. Ugh.
Jesse Watters - super creep.
For sci-fi lovers - Sisyphus on Netflix is a Korean sci-fi time travel apocalypse romance. It’s got everything!
Thinking about why this Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial testimony affects me. My ex was never physically abusive, and not particularly verbally abusive. (Of course, infidelity and gaslighting are types of abuse). But listening to the recordings of their arguments, it does bring up memories of arguments with my ex. (We didn't argue a lot). He would push, and push, and push like Amber Heard. So relentlessly pushing HIS view of things that eventually I would just leave the room. There would be no resolution unless I completely negated my own viewpoint and acknowledged his as "true".
Frankly, I had mostly forgotten about those episodes, but listening to this brings it back up - kinda makes the hair stand up on my neck. Of course, I see now that many of those arguments felt particularly dangerous because, unbeknownst to me, he was cheating and hiding it.
I've made a point of not paying any attention at all to this - I can't imagine knowing those details without feeling like some of the dirt has rubbed off on myself.
I recall when I was dating "S" that she would also be pretty relentless with the pressure about things until I gave in. Certainly something to watch out for.
I didn't really "give in" to my ex, I would usually just find a way to exit the conversation if he was pushing too much. But what HE wanted was total capitulation to his world view. I often wonder how his current wife fares when he gets like that - I don't get the impression she's as strong as I am. But then again, she married a daddy figure, so maybe she just follows along. Or again, maybe he's not cheating on her and so there isn't that ugly undercurrent that I was unaware of at the time. Maybe with age and acquiring his younger Asian-American "trophy wife", he's no longer intriguing with other women. I wouldn't bet my life on it though. Leopards don't change their spots.
My ex and I were peers, academically, intellectually, age-wise (well I was 4 years older). For his second wife he chose someone 19 years younger, less intellectual, less well-traveled - someone who would not see through his facade, I think. I do still feel slightly guilty that none of us clued her in to his cheating history before they married (she was NOT an OW, came along after our divorce). But I hope he's too old and tired to cheat on her, I really, really want her to care for him in his old age so my kids aren't burdened.
But I hope he's too old and tired to cheat on her, I really, really want her to care for him in his old age so my kids aren't burdened.
You can certainly hope. In my mind cheating is a sin of opportunity and entitlement. I don't read the various forums out there nearly as much as I used to but there's an astounding number of people who are caught cheating in their 60s.
Yeah - when he retired I thought gee, he’d have a lot of opportunity while she’s working. But then he was immediately laid up with medical problems. Now that he’s better I have no idea what he’s doing, if he’s working per diem half time, if he’s completely retired, if his wife is still working or not (she’s not nearly retirement age but I could see him wanting to reduce her work hours to be with him). Not my circus nor my monkeys.
Ok, just have to share this little bit of snarkiness, even though I totally place all the blame on my ex and not any of the women he slept with:
Overheard on another site - the OW referred to as the "Whoreable Mistake" lol.
Overheard on another site - the OW referred to as the "Whoreable Mistake" lol.
OMG. I almost spit out my wine! So good…
So, a discussion on another thread has me thinking more generally - what DOES it signify when grown up adults say “I love you” in a dating situation? And how soon in a relationship do you say it?
I mean - it SHOULDN’T mean “omg my soulmate has arrived!” the way young people in their 20’s mistake infatuation for true love. We are wiser than that now.
It shouldn’t mean you are committed forever to the relationship - you can love someone and still figure out while dating that they are not right for you. (Aren’t most of us here because we truly loved someone who wasn’t really right for us, in that cheaters aren’t right for us?).
Thinking back over my post-divorce dating, I think I only said it to crazy ex-bf and CMM.
I loved my first post-D boyfriend but he was clearly an avoidant and it didn’t seem appropriate to say. I still love him in an agape sort of way. He’ll always be my friend, I’ll always be grateful to him for the role he played in my recovery from my divorce, and I would always help him if he needed it.
Crazy ex-bf and I said it to each other, I don’t have any memory of when we started. I don’t remember any awkwardness. Of course now we know he was duplicitous. But we were in a loving relationship where it seemed appropriate to say.
CMM started saying it to me way too early, maybe 3-4 weeks into dating. I told him he didn’t even know me yet. He was clearly infatuated, and I wasn’t sure how I felt about him. I did say it to him a couple months later as he was going into surgery that would diagnose his lung cancer. Why did I say it to him then? I cared enough for him that I knew I would stand by him through his cancer treatment if it was cancer. And I knew if I waited until after the diagnosis was confirmed that he would always think I was only saying it because of his diagnosis.
I didn’t think he was the love of my life, although I was enjoying the relationship. I certainly cared for him, although he turned out to be difficult to live with at times. I committed to traveling his cancer journey with him, and our relationship deepened through that. He loved and cared for me, and I chose to love and care for him.
Adult love post-divorce isn’t always fairytale, but that doesn’t make it invalid.
Would I be pissed the way some people suggest they would be if someone said ILU to me while we were dating and later broke up with me over some incompatibility? Nope. Would I feel I had been abused or misled? No. Dating is a process by which you learn whether someone is right for you, and someone can feel love for you but still decide - for whatever reason - that a longer term relationship with you isn’t a fit, for whatever reason. We need to be careful not to drag our sense of rejection from our marriages into our dating life. Saying ILU isn’t a marriage proposal.
So, my question for you all is, when do YOU think is the right time to say ILU in a dating relationship? When you’re feeling infatuated? When you decide you’re really really enjoying your time with a person? When you decide you really really like who they are as a person? When you decide to be exclusive? When you decide you want to live with them? When you decide you want to marry them?
I’d say waiting until a marriage proposal is too long, and saying it in the first flush of infatuation when you don’t know the person that well is too soon, but there’s an awfully wide swath in between.
I enjoyed the perspective of this article--
I was out to dinner with one of my partners when we started talking about love. We recognized that we loved each other but that it didn’t have to mean anything grand. We weren’t in a super commitment kind of place and that was perfectly okay. Our love for each other felt comfortable and at that moment, it worked for us. Neither of us was offended; we were actually very content.
A lot of the time, saying I love you to a partner seems to come with expectations. You love me so now we have to take things to the next level. You love me so this is definitely going to a “marriage, kids, lifetime commitment” kind of place. That stuff is all beautiful, of course, and if that’s where saying I love you takes you, then I’m so happy for you. It doesn’t always have to be that way, though. Sometimes love can just be love.
Sometimes we say I love you because we just can’t hold it in anymore. We don’t know exactly where it’s going but we know that love is here, now, and not saying it is just too much effort to keep up with.
I love you is always a gift, but it means different things to different people at different times. I'm sure CMM's meaning was different 2-3 years in than it was 2-3 weeks in. I like that K told me explicitly what she meant--I was her joy, her happy place after a tough week. I wouldn't assume ILU entails a commitment anymore than that sex implies exclusivity. These are situations where a simple talk with you partner can ensure you're both on the same page which is what truly matters.
I've been mulling this over as well and have no good answers. I know that for me that once the ILU had been dropped on me that I certainly felt a lot of pressure to return it. And we all know how good I am at coping with pressure
When I was young I "wanted" to be in love and also when I was dating post-divorce. Now? I dunno. Despite me being the classic "small town handsome bachelor" that is always featured in Hallmark movies
- I can't say that it's something that I can find in me to feel in the way that I did so many years ago.
Did the women I dated drop the ILU on me out of actual true feelings of love? Or was it something that was used to "nail down" a good prospect? Cynicism would certainly say the latter.
There's also the whole Eros and Agape division. I love my cat, but not in the same way I could love a woman or in the way I love my children. The English language is poorly designed for these sort of discussions.
I’m curious - what’s the longest someone has gone in a relationship with their partner saying ILU before saying it back?
(With a partner saying ILU repeatedly, not just once).
So, a discussion on another thread has me thinking more generally - what DOES it signify when grown up adults say “I love you” in a dating situation? And how soon in a relationship do you say it?
When you feel it in your soul. No timetable.
I mean - it SHOULDN’T mean “omg my soulmate has arrived!” the way young people in their 20’s mistake infatuation for true love. We are wiser than that now.
Who says it should?
It shouldn’t mean you are committed forever to the relationship - you can love someone and still figure out while dating that they are not right for you. (Aren’t most of us here because we truly loved someone who wasn’t really right for us, in that cheaters aren’t right for us?).
Not committed forever. But if you are truly in love you will want to work out issues with the other person.
Thinking back over my post-divorce dating, I think I only said it to crazy ex-bf and CMM.
Ok. Did you mean it?
I loved my first post-D boyfriend but he was clearly an avoidant and it didn’t seem appropriate to say. I still love him in an agape sort of way. He’ll always be my friend, I’ll always be grateful to him for the role he played in my recovery from my divorce, and I would always help him if he needed it.
Why not?
Crazy ex-bf and I said it to each other, I don’t have any memory of when we started. I don’t remember any awkwardness. Of course now we know he was duplicitous. But we were in a loving relationship where it seemed appropriate to say.
Sounds like you may have loved him.
CMM started saying it to me way too early, maybe 3-4 weeks into dating. I told him he didn’t even know me yet. He was clearly infatuated, and I wasn’t sure how I felt about him. I did say it to him a couple months later as he was going into surgery that would diagnose his lung cancer. Why did I say it to him then? I cared enough for him that I knew I would stand by him through his cancer treatment if it was cancer. And I knew if I waited until after the diagnosis was confirmed that he would always think I was only saying it because of his diagnosis.
Sounds like you may have loved him.
I didn’t think he was the love of my life, although I was enjoying the relationship. I certainly cared for him, although he turned out to be difficult to live with at times. I committed to traveling his cancer journey with him, and our relationship deepened through that. He loved and cared for me, and I chose to love and care for him.
Sounds like you may have loved him.
Adult love post-divorce isn’t always fairytale, but that doesn’t make it invalid.
Huh?
Would I be pissed the way some people suggest they would be if someone said ILU to me while we were dating and later broke up with me over some incompatibility? Nope. Would I feel I had been abused or misled? No. Dating is a process by which you learn whether someone is right for you, and someone can feel love for you but still decide - for whatever reason - that a longer term relationship with you isn’t a fit, for whatever reason. We need to be careful not to drag our sense of rejection from our marriages into our dating life. Saying ILU isn’t a marriage proposal.
K I think it's clear that ILUs are basically meaningless to you and CW. I think you two are in the minority.
So, my question for you all is, when do YOU think is the right time to say ILU in a dating relationship? When you’re feeling infatuated? When you decide you’re really really enjoying your time with a person? When you decide you really really like who they are as a person? When you decide to be exclusive? When you decide you want to live with them? When you decide you want to marry them?
When you love being with this person and you can't imagine living your life without this person. That's what love is all about. Anything else is likely manipulation.
I’d say waiting until a marriage proposal is too long, and saying it in the first flush of infatuation when you don’t know the person that well is too soon, but there’s an awfully wide swath in between.
How about simply saying it when you mean it.
When you love being with this person and you can't imagine living your life without this person
This sounds like you wouldn't say it then until you're ready to propose? That seems far outside the norm.
I wouldn't assume ILU entails a commitment anymore than that sex implies exclusivity.
uuummm sex doesn't imply exclusivity.
These are situations where a simple talk with you partner can ensure you're both on the same page which is what truly matters.
K: So Traveler what does love mean to you?
T: It means you in are my life to make me feel good until you don't live up to my expectations and satisfy my needs anymore because then I am dumping you.
When you love being with this person and you can't imagine living your life without this person
This sounds like you wouldn't say it then until you're ready to propose? That seems far outside the norm.
Uuuum I'll never get married again but am quite sure I will say it again.
The longest relationship where she said ILU and I did not was 5 years! After a marriage where ILU was an obligation to stay despite abuse, no feelings, and no sex I couldn't feel it for awhile, was hesitant to say it again.
I think you two should get together and say all the fake ILUs to each other until the cows come home lol.
Originally Posted by Traveler
I wouldn't assume ILU entails a commitment anymore than that sex implies exclusivity.
uuummm sex doesn't imply exclusivity.
Actually LH, there are a fair number of women out there who WOULD assume that sex implies exclusivity. So are you upfront with every woman before you sleep with them that you are not exclusive? Some people enjoy casual sex, some people only want to have sex with someone they are "in love" with and exclusive, and there's a whole range in between.
BTW LH I haven't seen you posting lately about your hanging out and hooking up.
Way less then woman who assume ILU means a level of commitment.
And how long into a relationship have you said ILU in the past, LH? A year? two? or do you decide something important like "I can't imagine my life without this person" in less time than that?
Actions speak louder than words, LH
Uuummm I haven’t said those words for the first time in over 25 years. Though I could imagine saying them in about six months in.
So K based on your postings you are still pretty bitter about your h leaving you many years ago. Why? Love isn’t forever. It’s certainly not a life commitment. That’s what you’re telling us.
So you think in 6 months of dating you know enough about a person to make a serious commitment to them? Or to continue dating and DBing the relationship even if you find out at 7 months that they are not at all who you thought they were? What's the line for you - would you keep trying to salvage the relationship if you found out they were hiding an addiction? A gambling or shopping habit? Serious financial irresponsibility? Infidelity? Would you stay if they became permanently quadraplegic and brain damaged at 7 months of dating? If you discovered they had untreated/untreatable bipolar disease with severe destructive manic episodes and you just happened to be dating them in between episodes?
I know different people would have different answers to this question in different situations with different people, but I would argue that at 6 months in, you are only just beginning to find out who the real person is, not the infatuated fantasy you have about them. So at what point would you consider yourself not committed to "making it work" after saying ILU if you found out one of these things about them?
Anybody else out there have a data point?
So, a discussion on another thread has me thinking more generally - what DOES it signify when grown up adults say “I love you” in a dating situation? And how soon in a relationship do you say it?
So, my question for you all is, when do YOU think is the right time to say ILU in a dating relationship? When you’re feeling infatuated? When you decide you’re really really enjoying your time with a person? When you decide you really really like who they are as a person? When you decide to be exclusive? When you decide you want to live with them? When you decide you want to marry them?
My .02
Love is a choice and when both parties make this choice - then you will be successful.
If either party decides to stop making this choice. Doom and gloom.
Point is - the choice needs to be made everyday and everyday you need to work at it.
Easier said than done.
Certainly it can be done, I think the point of your second paragraph above is that it needs to be done,
whenever that happens.
So K based on your postings you are still pretty bitter about your h leaving you many years ago. Why? Love isn’t forever. It’s certainly not a life commitment. That’s what you’re telling us.
MARRIAGE is a lifetime commitment. Dating and saying ILU is not. There's a reason we celebrate the commitment of marriage.
And actually, I'm not bitter about my divorce. I'm unhappy about the fact that my ex stole MY AGENCY by not being honest about who he was and what he was doing in the marriage. Instead he lied and deceived. I'm actually thrilled to be divorced from him now. I wish he'd be a better parent and not leave it all on my shoulders but that's just who he is, a narcissist.
MARRIAGE is a lifetime commitment.
When 50% of marriages end in divorce, this is no longer true. Actions speak louder than words.
There's a reason we celebrate the commitment of marriage.
A lot of reasons we 'celebrate' marriage are in fact social and have nothing to do with committment. It reminds me of Jim & Pam's marriage in The Office. A committed couple can choose to get married without fanfare or just stay committed to each other without even getting married.
And actually, I'm not bitter about my divorce. I'm unhappy about the fact that my ex stole MY AGENCY by not being honest about who he was and what he was doing in the marriage. Instead he lied and deceived. I'm actually thrilled to be divorced from him now.
I feel this is a good example of how the 'lifetime commitment' in a marriage is a actually just a contract. Both parties have to live up to the terms (or expectations) of the contract to make the marriage work. There is no commitment without the terms of the contract being met reasonably.
I know different people would have different answers to this question in different situations with different people, but I would argue that at 6 months in, you are only just beginning to find out who the real person is, not the infatuated fantasy you have about them. So at what point would you consider yourself not committed to "making it work" after saying ILU if you found out one of these things about them?
Point is - the choice needs to be made everyday and everyday you need to work at it.
Easier said than done.
Certainly it can be done, I think the point of your second paragraph above is that it needs to be done,
whenever that happens.
But does it? If you're married (and weren't deceived by your spouse about who they were before your marriage) then definitely yes. But if you've only been dating for 6 months and said ILU based on the limited information people have after only 6 months of dating (because it is impossible to truly know someone in that short a time)? Staying and trying to fix that situation if there are dealbreakers that arise sounds pretty codependent and unhealthy to me.
I'm not saying all people don't have problems or that we shouldn't work to help our partners. But 6 months is a pretty short time to be taking on marriage-type commitment to a person just because you had nice infatuation feelings. At 6 months its really usually still just that. It takes a lot more time to find out who someone really is. (BTW I took on CMM and his cancer not because I was in LOOOOVE with him at only 3 months, but because he had no one else, I had the capacity and skills to help another human being at the end of his life, I did care for him, and I viewed it as a mitzvah - is that the right word?- a good deed - that I could do in my life. We built the love through that process of caring for each other, but I would hesitate to recommend it to anyone else. I grew up on the lives of the saints. )
So should we not say ILU at all until we've known someone for a couple of years and are really sure of our feelings towards them? Or should we accept that you can say ILU because you have loving feelings towards them, but it is still acceptable to back out of the relationship if you subsequently discover something that is a dealbreaker for you?
And to the women out there - we've been raised on unhealthy Prince Charming scenarios. Usually if something seems too good to be true, it is. I'm very leery of a guy who wants to say ILU too soon. It's not attractive to me because I KNOW they don't know me well enough to truly mean it. I know what it actually means in that scenario is "I like you a lot" or "I am in love with the FANTASY I have of who you are" or "You're really hot" or "The sex is fantastic" or "You're a really cool person and I am really enjoying our time together and hoping it goes somewhere".
I'd put a lot less emphasis on what they do or don't SAY, and a lot more emphasis on what they DO or don't DO. You shouldn't be heartbroken because a guy said ILU at 3 months and then later ended up breaking up with you - you should have taken those words with a grain of salt and continued to do your due diligence to find out if HE was right for YOU.
K what I don’t think you understand is us healthy people can spot love bombers like you and CW a mile away and would have dropped you before the one month mark. If I make it to six months I will have a excellent handle on the type a person I am with.
Originally Posted by kml
MARRIAGE is a lifetime commitment.
When 50% of marriages end in divorce, this is no longer true. Actions speak louder than words.
The commitment is real, whether people honor it is another thing. I have peace in my heart that I did EVERYTHING possible to save my marriage. I honored my commitment - my ex did not.
I don't feel you have to be legally married to have that commitment btw - but just saying ILU after a few months of dating is NOT the same thing as making a serious lifetime commitment.
[quote]I know different people would have different answers to this question in different situations with different people, but I would argue that at 6 months in, you are only just beginning to find out who the real person is, not the infatuated fantasy you have about them. So at what point would you consider yourself not committed to "making it work" after saying ILU if you found out one of these things about them?
KML - you only seem to be looking at one side of this. If it's okay that CW doesn't have that "commitment love"... than it makes sense to challenge his reaction to her. Because let's be honest - if you don't love someone 6 months... you really shouldn't be p!ssed to all h3ll for the weekend debacle. To me - it seemed intense. At 3 months - with no deep love - Shouldn't it be more of a "That weekend svcked. She's not right for me.. moving on " with a shoulder shrug?? Shouldn't the venting be more to the tune of "I'm so frustrated.. or sad... or disappointed... versus "she's so irresponsible, how could she possibly live a life like this?"
I would continue to say how confusing that would all be EXCEPT for the fact that he struggles with anxious attachment. So it actually makes perfect sense!
I'm sure the comments around ILUs will continue on - and that's all fine.. but I really wish we would have stayed on the core issue - Anxious Attachment styles. I would have loved to help CW with that instead of getting wrapped up in all this noise
"she's so irresponsible, how could she possibly live a life like this?"
He actually didn't say it like that. But I think it's healthy for him to recognize the chaos in her life and realize getting drawn into it would be counter to the hard work he's done to make his own life less chaotic. And people shouldn't be beating him up for making that (sane) decision. Even if he DID say ILU already. People are acting like he's obligated to stick with her and work it all out and he's not! This is dating. Yes, he should slow his roll in the future but he's hardly the only person here who has jumped into something too quickly. (T, stop with the romantic weekends away btw! Save that for later!)
That's why I think it's good to have a larger discussion about what people mean when they say ILU and where they think the relationship should be before they say it. So far I've heard 6 months and "whenever you feel it". But if people are saying it's a very serious commitment to say it, then should we wait longer? Or should we acknowledge that it isn't necessarily the same thing as making a very serious commitment?
His observation was that this wasn't about her being broke, but about her being broke AND fiscally irresponsible AND relying on daddy to bail her out from bad decisions. That would be a dealbreaker for me any day. I think it's healthy that he recognized that it's a dealbreaker for him too now.
Lol. You act like CE has all his $hit together and this chick or so beneath him.
She doesn’t have to be “beneath him” to be a bad match for him. We all discover certain personality traits that are dealbreakers for us. I wouldn’t be a match for somebody who is into extravagant spending on status symbols. Doesn’t make them bad, just reveals they have values that don’t align well with my own.
But I’m not really raising this question to rehash the arguments over Ts decision - I’m genuinely curious what everyone’s different values are around saying ILU and levels of commitment in dating.
To me when you say “I love you” as cadet says, it’s a choice. Every day. It’s an action. It’s not just a feeling how.feel. It’s absolutely an action verb, just like cadet says .
It’s a choice every day. When the going gets rough, you chose to love instead of walk.
Love is an action, not a fleeting feeling . To me, anyways
Ok G - then if you said ILU after, say, 6 months of dating, and then discovered your beloved was a gambling addict, would you stay? What if they were a pedophile? Obviously everybody has some kind of dealbreaker that would cause us to break off a dating relationship even if we had said ILU. . Yet waiting to say ILU until you were fairly certain that there were no dealbreakers lurking would take at least two years I think. Does that mean you shouldn’t say ILU until you’ve been together 2 years? That would seem very far out of the norm.
How far into the relationship have you said ILU, G? If you found out a boyfriend had cheated on you one year into a relationship where you had already said ILU, would you feel obligated to work it out with him?
K as usual you are missing most the points here. Obviously ILU doesn’t tie you to someone for the rest of your life so please drop that from your justification. As Valeska said this is about CW fixing his attachment issues so no one else gets hurt. You also never touched on the fact that CW is always on here saying he wants someone who loves him for his warts and all. So she has money issues. So does he. Sit down together and try to figure out how something like last weekend never happens again. That’s what adults in love do.
You are always saying your exh is a narcissist when statistically speaking it’s highly unlikely. You know what a sure sign of a narcissist is? Thinking they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Now that’s something to think about.
You all are missing the point - there is nothing wrong with T leaving a dating relationship when he discovers character traits that are dealbreakers for him. He’s only dated her three months! And if you think “sitting down and figuring out how to avoid that happening again” with a woman who has multiple other red flags around her irresponsibility and entitlement around money is the way to go , I call you hopelessly naive. This is not about not knowing how to budget. He’s not going to change her. And he shouldn’t try.
Can we just trust that T feels this is sufficient reason to break up? Almost every one here is saying “he should work it out” like you are. I say he shouldn’t ignore the very real red flags and is under no obligation at three months of dating to continue the relationship. Even if he was foolish enough to rush in a little too quickly.
Again - I didn’t start this to discuss T but to see what people think is a “normal” amount of time to ILU and how does this time affect what you “owe” somebody you’re just dating?
You all are missing the point - there is nothing wrong with T leaving a dating relationship when he discovers character traits that are dealbreakers for him. He’s only dated her three months! And if you think “sitting down and figuring out how to avoid that happening again” with a woman who has multiple other red flags around her irresponsibility and entitlement around money is the way to go , I call you hopelessly naive. This is not about not knowing how to budget. He’s not going to change her. And he shouldn’t try.
Can we just trust that T feels this is sufficient reason to break up? Almost every one here is saying “he should work it out” like you are. I say he shouldn’t ignore the very real red flags and is under no obligation at three months of dating to continue the relationship. Even if he was foolish enough to rush in a little too quickly.
Again - I didn’t start this to discuss T but to see what people think is a “normal” amount of time to ILU and how does this time affect what you “owe” somebody you’re just dating?
There is no normal amount of time to ILU. It depends on The two individuals in the relationship. This thread shows ILU and even marriage means different things to different people. Your exH and you clearly had different ideas on what marriage or commitment meant. Dennis Rodman and Carmen Electra probably had their views on it when they got married
As in any relationship, the key here is clear communication. Before you say ILU try to understand how your partner will interpret it. Communicate with them so they understand what ILU means to you so they don’t misinterpret it. If you are not comfortable having the conversation about what ILU means, then it is probably too early to say it.
I would agree with that, M. Communication is key and different people will have different perspectives. This is why I’m so surprised to hear statements about T’s situation like “this is why women don’t trust men!” or “ he should try to work this out” or “he shouldn’t be judging her”.
Maybe people are still personalizing the rejection because they’re still raw from their divorce? Maybe people are overly stuck in DB mode and carrying that into their dating lives?
I agree with those that feel that the actions speak louder than the words and the words themselves can mean completely different things to different people. And if CW wants to use those words and the gals respond to it, then that is between them.
I don’t think anyone can honestly ever agree on the right or wrong time to say it, except the two people saying the words to each other. Love is not some simple emotion with a rule book anyway. It’s extremely complex and layered. You add in there the differences between the sexes, societal stuff, history, trauma, etc, and the word itself can’t contain what the feeling are anyway. That’s where the actions come in (along with deeper communication using a lot of words).
Why is everyone arguing about the timing? There are couples out there that say it very early and have amazing relationships that live up to the words spoken. There are other couples who wait to say it and take a bit longer to feel the same amazing connection without speaking the words. Then there are those that say it and don’t really mean it, or at least the person receiving it doesn’t feel it. I mean, really, can there be rules around something like saying you love someone? Communication is flawed. That’s just the way it is. It doesn’t cover all the feelings. That’s why Brene Brown has a new book about words for feelings to help…hahaha!
My STBXH said ILU really early, like within months. And I said it back not long after that and felt it too. But here I am now. Divorcing and he had an affair. Honestly, the love bombing actions should have been more of a red flag then the words. And he told me the dreaded ILYBINILWY, so explain what the heck that is then? It’s really all about actions and connections and two people just trying to say how complicated they are feeling in words.
It’s love after all. It’s different for everyone and every situation and every couple. And honestly, I told my cat I loved her the moment I picked her up as a kitten. Do you think she freaked out? She just absorbed the love I showed her…and I’m grateful to receive what I feel is love back from her even if it happened very early in our relationship.
MLC has a great point. ILUs to Ginger, Dawn, myself etc. mean commitment, honor, trust etc. ILUs to KML and CW mean I think I kinda dig you right now but we’ll see how it goes. Which brings up the point why even say it. Oh I know why, because she said it first. Sounds like a fight between my kids. “She said it first”.
Here are the facts of the case and they are irrefutable, we have two women who were once friends are now ex-gfs who most likely felt misled. Middle age dating is awesome! Lol.
MLC has a great point. ILUs to Ginger, Dawn, myself etc. mean commitment, honor, trust etc. ILUs to KML and CW mean I think I kinda dig you right now but we’ll see how it goes. Which brings up the point why even say it. Oh I know why, because she said it first. Sounds like a fight between my kids. “She said it first”.
Here are the facts of the case and they are irrefutable, we have two women who were once friends are now ex-gfs who most likely felt misled. Middle age dating is awesome! Lol.
Dude I'm telling ya - get a dog! Scr3w middle age dating!
Hey LH have you noticed we've kissed and made up? We're 1000% in agreement here.
BF you’ve always been one of my favorites I never hold grudges. I’ve made up with Don, May, Wayfarer etc. I have strong opinions and probably cross the line sometimes to get my point home. We are all here to be better.
I’m not ready to give up on woman yet lol.
BF you’ve always been one of my favorites I never hold grudges. I’ve made up with Don, May, Wayfarer etc. I have strong opinions and probably cross the line sometimes to get my point home. We are all here to be better.
I’m not ready to give up on woman yet lol.
Darlin, chicks love dogs ... and dogs are great judges of character ...can you dig the groove i'm laying down?
I haven't given up totally - yet - on the notion of there being a guy out there who not only flips my skirt but also has the same definition of love as me ... but dang, reading this side of the boards sometimes makes me want to run screaming from the room as though my hair was on fire. Yeah, we definitely are all here to be better, but wow. please tell me this isn't representative ... give me some hope, Obi Wan ...
Truthfully people like CW you would spot a mile away because they come on so strong and that would make you feel uncomfortable.
Not gonna lie finding a man that gives you the tingles and is interested in a committed relationship won’t be easy. I think Ginger will can attest to that.
Patience is the name of the game BF you have to have it in this business.
Clearly this woman who was dating T did not have the same definition /criteria for ILU since she said it after only 6 weeks. So I doubt she’s going to be as broken-hearted as you think. That’s infatuation not love.
Omigosh, is K and I still the topic?!
Clearly this woman who was dating T did not have the same definition /criteria for ILU since she said it after only 6 weeks. So I doubt she’s going to be as broken-hearted as you think.
Yes, especially since while I journaled about breaking up, she's the one who decided to move hours away, effectively ending the relationship. Ladies don't feel like you're coming on "too strong" when they say things first, nor do they feel betrayed when they break up first. LH noted back in my thread I was lucky. I pause before big decisions and often that works out well.
K I will keep asking until you answer. Why say it then?
Because you feel love for that person? That doesn’t mean you’re committed to working it out if that person turns out to not be what you thought, or if other issues arise while dating that mean the relationship is no longer right for the two if you. Y’all are treating it like a proposal or something. Or like the climactic moment in a Lifetime romance movie.
I guess the warning for those of you who DO think it’s like a Lifetime romance movie is, many (I would say most) people over the age of 35 can understand there’s a difference between infatuation - which is fun - and real love, which takes time to build. So pay more attention to the actions not the words.
Because you feel love for that person? That doesn’t mean you’re committed to working it out if that person turns out to not be what you thought, or if other issues arise while dating that mean the relationship is no longer right for the two if you. Y’all are treating it like a proposal or something. Or like the climactic moment in a Lifetime romance movie.
Because for some of us, saying I love you implies commitment. You clearly don’t feel that way, kml, and that is fine, but it is also fine for of us who do feel that way to feel that way. Our OPINIONS do not make us right or make us an authority on anything. I personally think CW and K said it too early but I’m not in that relationship so if they felt comfortable saying it, more power to them. When I say it, I’m professing my commitment to someone and I don’t say it lightly. Some obviously do and I say the onus is on the individual to be sure they are accurately communicating what it means to them.
Several have thrown out timelines and, forgive me if I misunderstood, kml, but I interpreted your comments as your saying that ILY are just words until 2ish years in then you really know someone and are committed. (Again, if I misunderstood what you said, kml, my apologies, as I’m not trying to be argumentative or put words in your mouth, so to speak.) I contend that everyone is on their own timeline and it is important that people communicate openly and honestly with their partner. For me and Sparky, our timeline was about 6 months to ILY, started talking about marriage around 10 months, got engaged at 11 months, then married a year after our engagement. Too fast? Some here would say yes, others would say no. It was worked for us and that is what matters.
Same with CW and K. Whatever works for them. In my opinion (WHICH DOES NOT MAKE ME RIGHT) there is a disconnect in there. Not one person said they shouldn’t break up. What most of us said was CW should be more empathetic when it comes to the financial stuff because he had his own issues for which he expected empathy and he had other admittedly really awful choices in the weekend fiasco. Kml, you keep insisting we are all telling him to stay with her when literally no one said that. It’s all moot now since they have worked it out. I again credit CW for continuing to come here and take what people say and try to digest while also trying to stay true to himself. Again, that’s my opinion that some may or may not share.
What it all boils down to, in my opinion, as I have said here MANY times, is that everyone had their own timelines and experiences and they have to rely on those because the information that we are receiving from posts is only a little sliver of ALL the conversations, interactions, feelings, etc.
I guess the warning for those of you who DO think it’s like a Lifetime romance movie is, many (I would say most) people over the age of 35 can understand there’s a difference between infatuation - which is fun - and real love, which takes time to build. So pay more attention to the actions not the words.
That’s a little insulting to my intelligence, kml. Just because ILY implies commitment TO ME doesn’t mean that I’m unaware of the difference between infatuation and real love. I don’t think love is like a romantic movie. It can be, but it is also painful, messy, difficult. I’m a grown @$$ woman and I know the difference and if I say ILY means something to me then that is my business. The one thing you said I actually agree with is real love takes time to build. Absolutely it does! But that time frame is different for everyone.
Dawn of course nailed it.
Meaningless words work for KML and CW and that’s ok. They do them.
Omigosh, is K and I still the topic?!
Clearly this woman who was dating T did not have the same definition /criteria for ILU since she said it after only 6 weeks. So I doubt she’s going to be as broken-hearted as you think.
Yes, especially since while I journaled about breaking up, she's the one who decided to move hours away, effectively ending the relationship. Ladies don't feel like you're coming on "too strong" when they say things first, nor do they feel betrayed when they break up first. LH noted back in my thread I was lucky. I pause before big decisions and often that works out well.
Yeah I thought you were luck finding a girl who puts up with your needy behavior. Apparently you don’t agree so that is that.
Ok G - then if you said ILU after, say, 6 months of dating, and then discovered your beloved was a gambling addict, would you stay? What if they were a pedophile? Obviously everybody has some kind of dealbreaker that would cause us to break off a dating relationship even if we had said ILU. . Yet waiting to say ILU until you were fairly certain that there were no dealbreakers lurking would take at least two years I think. Does that mean you shouldn’t say ILU until you’ve been together 2 years? That would seem very far out of the norm.
How far into the relationship have you said ILU, G? If you found out a boyfriend had cheated on you one year into a relationship where you had already said ILU, would you feel obligated to work it out with him?
I don’t equate a bad weekend and financial responsibility with finding out someone is a pedophile or an addict! Illegal and stinks at managing money are no where on the same level.
I have said “I love you “ with 2 people only. First, my exH, who didn’t exchange those words with me for TWO years. He knows saying that would lead me to believe in commitment and he wanted mess around. The second time, kind of soon, 3 months in. He said it first. And guess what he did? He took it back! And it crushed me. Number 3 was M, we were 6 months in. Him first. And yeah, he didn’t take that word very seriously either.
I also agree that there are no rules regarding the timing of saying I love yous. It works different for everyone. I just chose to live it when I say it.
Texan and I had a weekend away together. We hit a similar bit different snafu that K and CW did. But we addressed it right on the spot . Talked it out, came up with a plan and ended up having a fantastic fun time together. We didn’t want to end anything over it . We just communicated.
Not one person said they shouldn’t break up
LH kept saying they should work it out, G implied it was terrible if him to break up with her.
I don’t equate a bad weekend and financial responsibility with finding out someone is a pedophile or an addict! Illegal and stinks at managing money are no where on the same level.
G, I wasn’t implying they were. I was pointing out it’s a spectrum and everyone has a dealbreaker somewhere along that continuum. And the point wasn’t just that she was bad at managing money, but that she spent irresponsibly buying new stuff she couldn’t afford and then expected her dad to bail her out. This speaks to her character. It’s completely different from you working two jobs trying to keep your head above water and having medical debt.
For me and Sparky, our timeline was about 6 months to ILY, started talking about marriage around 10 months, got engaged at 11 months, then married a year after our engagement. Too fast? Some here would say yes, others would say no. It was worked for us and that is what matters
That sounds about right Dawn - at 2 years you knew him well enough to marry. But when you said ILY at 6 months, would you have felt obligated to stay in the relationship if you discovered a dealbreaker, just because you’d said ILY? Again - where on the spectrum of dealbreakers would your breaking point be? I’m pretty sure if you’d discovered he was a pedophile you wouldn’t stay and work it out at that 6 month mark. You might or might not try to work it out if he was unfaithful, although I would argue that would be a bad idea with our histories. Everybody has a dealbreaker.
I guess the warning for those of you who DO think it’s like a Lifetime romance movie is, many (I would say most) people over the age of 35 can understand there’s a difference between infatuation - which is fun - and real love, which takes time to build. So pay more attention to the actions not the words.
That’s a little insulting to my intelligence, kml. Just because ILY implies commitment TO ME doesn’t mean that I’m unaware of the difference between infatuation and real love. I don’t think love is like a romantic movie. It can be, but it is also painful, messy, difficult. I’m a grown @$$ woman and I know the difference and if I say ILY means something to me then that is my business. The one thing you said I actually agree with is real love takes time to build. Absolutely it does! But that time frame is different for everyone.
yes and btw whats wrong with romantic movies? the world needs love stories or they wouldn't be so popular. and just because you watch one doesn't mean you believe that love and life can be wrapped up with a pretty bow in under 3 hours or that your IQ is inferior.
re love vs infatuation etc, love morphs over time. there have been enough studies on the subject to prove that biologically ... I've said ily to two men and only two. both times it was under the six month mark, once I said it first, once he did. both relationships lasted for years, and love wasn't the reason either ended.
I don't think there's a set formula for timing. it's individual to the relationships/people involved, as has been said in earlier posts, but clearly I will be asking for a definition the next time someone tells me they love me so I can be clear we're both speaking the same language. that's my takeaway from all this.
I have a really good guy friend who's played the field extensively in between long term relationships - his view isn't so much about exchanging ily's as it is being in a committed thing. he won't go exclusive in under 8 moths because his belief is that both people are on their best behavior for the first 6 months and since that can't be kept up forever you start to see the real person between months 6-8. his view. I don't really disagree with him ...
also, imho love doesn't just morph, it grows deeper over time and with shared experiences. certainly love is different at 73 years of marriage than it was at 2 years. mom and I had numerous conversations about that. dad and I did, too.
If I’m being honest pedophilia is not necessarily a dealbreaker for me if I said ILU.
Not one person said they shouldn’t break up
LH kept saying they should work it out, G implied it was terrible if him to break up with her.
Wow just wow… I’m sorry kml but are completely missing what everyone is saying.
For me and Sparky, our timeline was about 6 months to ILY, started talking about marriage around 10 months, got engaged at 11 months, then married a year after our engagement. Too fast? Some here would say yes, others would say no. It was worked for us and that is what matters
That sounds about right Dawn - at 2 years you knew him well enough to marry. But when you said ILY at 6 months, would you have felt obligated to stay in the relationship if you discovered a dealbreaker, just because you’d said ILY? Again - where on the spectrum of dealbreakers would your breaking point be? I’m pretty sure if you’d discovered he was a pedophile you wouldn’t stay and work it out at that 6 month mark. You might or might not try to work it out if he was unfaithful, although I would argue that would be a bad idea with our histories. Everybody has a dealbreaker.
As G already pointed out, financial snafus and pedophilia are wildly different issues. Of course everyone has deal breakers and nowhere did I ever say or even indicate that I didn’t. Of course I would end a relationship if a deal breaker popped up even after I’d said ILY. What would that be, outside of the obvious illegal situations? Well, honestly, it would depend on the person. Infidelity is absolutely a deal breaker for me. Drug or alcohol abuse, stealing, being a deadbeat dad….all deal breakers.
OBVIOUSLY many of us would end a relationship after ILY or we wouldn’t even be here. We wouldn’t be divorced. Bttrfly is so right that love morphs. It changes over time as partners grow either toward or away from each other.
Not one person said they shouldn’t break up
LH kept saying they should work it out, G implied it was terrible if him to break up with her.
Wow just wow… I’m sorry kml but are completely missing what everyone is saying.
No! Not at all! It even close! It’s terrible to lead someone to believe you’ll be there through thick and thin, then break up over some thing like that without so much of a discussion.
In the beginning he likes to hook them hard because of his anxious attachment issues. Then once they get hooked abs begin to feel safe, it’s a messed up time to just walk away.
Pin, I’m not misinterpreting what LH has said. He most definitely said that T should work it out with her, and has implied T and I are both shallow because we would break up with someone after saying ILU if we encountered a dealbreaker - yet everyone admits they have a dealbreaker somewhere where they would do the same.
Not one person said they shouldn’t break up
LH kept saying they should work it out, G implied it was terrible if him to break up with her.
[quote] Not one person said they shouldn’t break up
Forgive me for speaking for you, LH and G (and absolutely correct me if I’m wrong), but what I believe LH was getting at was they should work out the financial crap rather than CW being angry and ending it just because she made bad choices that he went along with. And G’s implication was more about it would be bad to break up solely abruptly just because she mishandled her money and he had to bail her out. Again, LH and G, please forgive me for speaking and misinterpreting if I did but after the week I’ve had at work that has been full of stuff like this, I had to add my 2 cents.
Pin, I’m not misinterpreting what LH has said. He most definitely said that T should work it out with her, and has implied T and I are both shallow because we would break up with someone after saying ILU if we encountered a dealbreaker - yet everyone admits they have a dealbreaker somewhere where they would do the same.
Apparently I’m the defender of LH today and I don’t know why since he is perfectly capable of handling himself but NO….he is not saying y’all are shallow for breaking up after saying ILY and encountering a deal breaker. He’s pointing out that saying ILY has a deeper meaning to some while others toss it out like they’d say “you want fries with that?” He didn’t say you were shallow nor say anything about anything related to a deal breaker.
And I’m not against romance - but almost every true crime story starts with some woman or man being “swept off their feet”. So it pays to keep our wits about us and not ignore the red flags.
And if some dude is telling me he loves me a few weeks or a month in, I’m assuming he is trying to sweep me off my feet so yeah, I agree it is important to keep my wits about me and not ignore red flags.
Thanks Dawn for having my back and I’ll take it from here. K I didn’t say you were shallow I said the two of you are inauthentic and have no honor because your words don’t mean anything. They are just words you say in the moment either to make you feel good or avoid an awkward situation. Like when a man says at the end of a date “I’ll call you”. And then doesn’t.
If he loved her he should try to work it out. Obviously he doesn’t so or at least what 99% of us equates to love so I say “dump her broke a§§”!
And G’s implication was more about it would be bad to break up solely abruptly just because she mishandled her money and he had to bail her out
He shouldn’t try to work it out if irresponsibility is a dealbreaker for him. It is and it would have been for me too. And it doesn’t mean we are inauthentic , just that we recognize red flags when we see them. If it’s not a red flag for you, fine. It is for me - a big one - and apparently for T too.
K I think you are just trolling us now. No one can be this out there.
Also CW is irresponsible! You think he changed 40 plus years of behavior in 3 months?
LH you can’t seem to disagree with people without insulting them. Why is that?
What is so out there about this being a dealbreaker? It’s not that she’s broke or can’t budget. It’s that she’s spending irresponsibly - new car, new sofa, expensive weekend trip -when she doesn’t have the money or even an available credit card and while expecting daddy to bail her out. To me that says something deeply important about a person’s personality traits - entitlement, impulsiveness, maybe overly concerned with appearances. And that’s a personality type I don’t care to be in a relationship with. Others are not bothered by this, in fact some guys are attracted to “damsels in distress”. Have at it.
A lot of us women were raised on “our prince will come” fantasies. I’ve known a lot of women who didn’t think they had to be responsible with their money or plan for a career because someday some guy was going to bail them out. It’s not a trait that I respect in my female friends. I certainly would consider it a dealbreaker if I was dating a guy who turned out to be that way - or who turned out to be overly concerned with status, or keeping up with the Joneses. Definitely not my type.
I wouldn’t be likely to say ILU to someone as early as T did, and I can’t currently recall ever having said it first - definitely never uncomfortably so. But I don’t believe just having said it obligated me to work through dealbreakers if they crop up, and most of you don’t either. We just have different dealbreakers.
Well K you are bringing out the worst in me so I’ll explain it one more time. Dealbreakers are great, awesome and a must. Now if CW would of took his time to know K he would have found out the dealbreaker before the ILU. I will say it one more time and then no more. CW has displayed his disappointment many times that no one lives him for his warts and all. Too many on here that sounds very hypocritical.
I’m done with this subject and will no longer comment on it.
Well K you are bringing out the worst in me so I’ll explain it one more time. Dealbreakers are great, awesome and a must. Now if CW would of took his time to know K he would have found out the dealbreaker before the ILU. I will say it one more time and then no more. CW has displayed his disappointment many times that no one lives him for his warts and all. Too many on here that sounds very hypocritical.
I’m done with this subject and will no longer comment on it.
Ditto LH!!!!!! I came here to basically say the same thing. It isn’t about deal breakers and obligation. Everyone has deal breakers and acknowledges that theirs might or might not be different from other people’s. Seriously, it is not secret that LH and I don’t always agree and we’ve always said what we needed to say and moved on but I have never agreed more with EVERYTHING he’s said in these comments.
And by the way, not all women were raised with that “some day my prince will come” mentality. Some of us were taught to independent grown women who can handle our business all by ourselves. I don’t need a knight in shining armor because he would just get in my d@mn way trying to mansplain stuff to me.
Yet the culture surrounds girls with Disney princess stories and other stories that reinforce that thinking for many. If I was a guy I would steer clear of those women. And look for the women like you and I that can handle our own sh!t . But an awful lot of men want damsels in distress or avoid women who are as smart as them.
I can see why a person who struggles with financial responsibility might find financial irresponsibility in a potential life partner a dealbreaker. Even if you loved them to the moon and back, expecting them to miraculously change in order to balance your weakness seems...well... a bit unrealistic. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I wouldn't give betting odds on that relationship's survival.
Along with early recognition of general red flags, early recognition of our own weaknesses in potential partners is a great thing - it helps us avoid catastrophe. Whether or not you say (or don't say) that you love those people is irrelevant.
One thing I've learned - love does not conquer all.
I don't even know why I'm chiming in here, but...
I've always seen there to be a big difference between "love" and "in love" and I think this was a pretty commonly accepted dichotomy. I would say "I'm falling in love with you" or "I think I'm in love with you" or "I'm in love with you" in those early, romantic stages. (And I believe every person I said it to or said it to me shared this definition.) "I love you" has always been a much deeper emotion that does imply a certain level of commitment or forgiveness. As Chris Rock says, you can't really love someone till you've seen the crust of them. I remember back in the day with my girlfriends talking about this, and people feeling like you couldn't say "I love you" and mean it until you'd at least been on a vacation with someone and had some opportunities for each other to not be on their best behavior. You don't really know each other -- how can you love each other?
It seems to me that CW and K both said "I love you" when maybe in my book it would have been more like "I'm in love with you."
I couldn't give a flying F about K and whether or not CW stays with her, or if her financial irresponsibility is a legit red flag or not. (I will say I know ZERO disney princess women who think they should be rescued. ZERO.) I did not see anyone saying that he should stay with her, as others have said. Just that it is a d!ck move to say ILY then bail when the person exhibits some very similar problems that you yourself had a few months ago, and talk about her in such a dismissive way to all of us. That behavior doesn't mesh with how many of us define "love."
What I did see-- and what I think I've been trying to point out to CW for a long time-- is that he moves so quickly and sweeps these women off their feet. He has done this consistently, from the watermelon and feta salads and bubbly picnics on hikes to whale watching at sunset. Or whatever. Early ILUs are all in line with that. He comes off like a player. Someone above said he sets that hook hard so that he can soothe his anxious side and then it feels like if they don't keep his interest he moves on. (Just like my neighbor, who has now taken yet another woman to Europe (this time Paris) on a whirlwind trip, she totally fell for him, he's bored now and broke up with her because he just doesn't really feel it anymore.)
CW only likes the ones who are cruel to him and play hot and cold. i doubt we would have even heard about this situation if she was a drama queen and made him feel insufficient or insecure. My guess is that he would have seen the similarities between her situation and his own not so long ago and been over the moon that they had so much in common.
CW... I think you're such a great person in so many ways. I am so confused about why you won't really dig deep here or spend enough time uncoupled that you can actually stop these repeated dysfunctional patterns. You are so impatient to move on and find a partner but I am worried that you'll just keep repeating the same thing-- either you get swept up with someone terrible like the kebab lady or your ex, or you'll keep breaking the hearts of women who fall for you. (Or, maybe K is actually exactly like you and bored now too, so totally fine with what is happening.) And I do also worry that most women without some sort of issue will see right through you and pass you by if you don't seriously work on your attachment issues, since many of the things you've shared with us would be true dealbreakers for many women. I'm guessing it is hard to be truly empathetic to another person in similar circumstances when it is still too close for comfort for you, and maybe there are still things you haven't shared with us that you're dealing with around finances. IDK. But I hope you'll take this all seriously.
M
Wow! I mean wow! Such great comments May. That also goes for Dawn and butterfly and a few others. Then we have this.
You are always saying your exh is a narcissist when statistically speaking it’s highly unlikely. You know what a sure sign of a narcissist is? Thinking they are right and everyone else is wrong. Now that’s something to think about.
Okay just who are you and how did you manage to hack into LHs account? Seriously, great comments dude. My old and now renewed favorite radio physiologist talks about this all the time how labeling people, especially ex husbands has as narcissistic hit epidemic levels and do not come close to matching how few actual true narcissists there really are out there.
Nearly everyone is seeing these topics and the latest Traveler saga the same. Are we all wrong? Really? And again May you nailed it - including the compliments. I’ll just say, “what May said”. It truly is amazing to watch people do the same things over and over again. Just reinforces my belief that people typically don’t change. They are who they are. We either accept them or not. But the first step in changing is admitting there’s a problem.
There is one important thing that is possibly being overlooked in this conversation. CW was upset that K promised an all expenses paid trip but he was being put in a situation to step up and pay. This indicates a lack of trust because even though he was just loaning her the money, he felt she would not pay him back. How do you love someone in a middle age relationship without even this level of trust? If you love someone and know she has put in a lot of effort to do something nice, would having to help them out temporarily irk you this way? If you went to dinner with a friend and they forgot their wallet would you be that upset if you had to pick up the tab regardless of whether you thought they were going to pay you back later?
What bothered me personally was what I perceived as the lack of empathy on CW's part (sorry, CW - don't mean to be harsh here but just stating my observation). It was all about how everything affected him without looking at things from her perspective. I am not saying he should not break up with her, but this is something he needs to address as part of his self-improvement if he wants things to be successful when he eventually meets someone that is a better fit for him
What I did see-- and what I think I've been trying to point out to CW for a long time-- is that he moves so quickly and sweeps these women off their feet. He has done this consistently, from the watermelon and feta salads and bubbly picnics on hikes to whale watching at sunset. Or whatever. Early ILUs are all in line with that. He comes off like a player. Someone above said he sets that hook hard so that he can soothe his anxious side and then it feels like if they don't keep his interest he moves on. (Just like my neighbor, who has now taken yet another woman to Europe (this time Paris) on a whirlwind trip, she totally fell for him, he's bored now and broke up with her because he just doesn't really feel it anymore.)
May, too tired to write more just now, but I hear you.
CW was upset that K promised an all expenses paid trip but he was being put in a situation to step up and pay. This indicates a lack of trust because even though he was just loaning her the money, he felt she would not pay him back. How do you love someone in a middle age relationship without even this level of trust? If you went to dinner with a friend and they forgot their wallet would you be that upset if you had to pick up the tab regardless of whether you thought they were going to pay you back later?
MLCxH, your analogy misses that this was a "small fortune", and I had to pay a good chunk of it just to get home safely. I'm sure we all have a dollar amount we'd feel traumatized losing. I was also uncomfortable because her account had $50 and she was struggling. I offered listening and validation on the trip. At some point, I get to honor my frustrations too!
The dinner on the trip was my decision and I own that and all expenses I could say no to.
The good news is--after telling me the next day she might not pay me back--K secured her loan and returned thousands of dollars to me. She failed on responsibility. She came through on honesty. My savings are whole again.
he felt she would not pay him back. How do you love someone in a middle age relationship without even this level of trust?
Returning to kml's query about ILU, love doesn't require blindly trusting someone to repay a loan. Trust is earned by past actions. I know parents who love their kids, but if they loaned them a large sum, wouldn't expect to see it again.
Wow! I mean wow! Such great comments May. That also goes for Dawn and butterfly and a few others. Then we have this.
You are always saying your exh is a narcissist when statistically speaking it’s highly unlikely. You know what a sure sign of a narcissist is? Thinking they are right and everyone else is wrong. Now that’s something to think about.
Okay just who are you and how did you manage to hack into LHs account? Seriously, great comments dude. My old and now renewed favorite radio physiologist talks about this all the time how labeling people, especially ex husbands has as narcissistic hit epidemic levels and do not come close to matching how few actual true narcissists there really are out there.
Nearly everyone is seeing these topics and the latest Traveler saga the same. Are we all wrong? Really? And again May you nailed it - including the compliments. I’ll just say, “what May said”. It truly is amazing to watch people do the same things over and over again. Just reinforces my belief that people typically don’t change. They are who they are. We either accept them or not. But the first step in changing is admitting there’s a problem.
I read in a book once that if you label someone as a narcissist or that it’s MLC that you don’t have to take responsibility for your part in the breakdown of the relationship.
I said I wouldn’t comment anymore but just wanted to say that I agree May nailed it!
Happy Mother’s Day to all the Mothers on the board!
he felt she would not pay him back. How do you love someone in a middle age relationship without even this level of trust?
Returning to kml's query about ILU, love doesn't require blindly trusting someone to repay a loan. Trust is earned by past actions. I know parents who love their kids, but if they loaned them a large sum, wouldn't expect to see it again.
Hi CW, my point is exactly that. Trust is earned and since trust is the foundation of any good relationship, you may want to slow things down till your partner has earned your trust.
If she did not pay you back, you could have lost a lot of money because of trusted her blindly and agreed to go on an expensive trip. You had control and ability to say no more than just the dinner. It’s good learofor you since you may not be as luck next time.
Happy Mothers Day to all the moms!!
“It’s good learning for you”….not “good lerofor you” 😊 I wish this forum had a better phone interface
T- 3 months in you agreed to have her take you on a trip that costs THOUSANDS of dollars?
Wow! I mean wow! Such great comments May. That also goes for Dawn and butterfly and a few others. Then we have this.
You are always saying your exh is a narcissist when statistically speaking it’s highly unlikely. You know what a sure sign of a narcissist is? Thinking they are right and everyone else is wrong. Now that’s something to think about.
Okay just who are you and how did you manage to hack into LHs account? Seriously, great comments dude. My old and now renewed favorite radio physiologist talks about this all the time how labeling people, especially ex husbands has as narcissistic hit epidemic levels and do not come close to matching how few actual true narcissists there really are out there.
Nearly everyone is seeing these topics and the latest Traveler saga the same. Are we all wrong? Really? And again May you nailed it - including the compliments. I’ll just say, “what May said”. It truly is amazing to watch people do the same things over and over again. Just reinforces my belief that people typically don’t change. They are who they are. We either accept them or not. But the first step in changing is admitting there’s a problem.
I read in a book once that if you label someone as a narcissist or that it’s MLC that you don’t have to take responsibility for your part in the breakdown of the relationship.
I said I wouldn’t comment anymore but just wanted to say that I agree May nailed it!
Happy Mother’s Day to all the Mothers on the board!
LH, whoever wrote that book has a point, but hopefully they aren't speaking for the majority of people whose spouses went off the rails into a spiral of MLC insanity. Trust me my friend, I can pinpoint to the day when I screwed up in my marriage, hindsight being 20/20 and all. I couldn't see it in real time, or I would have made a different choice, but I've owned that and am working on forgiving myself for my part in it. No salacious details to share - my part didn't involve anything illicit. It was simply a combination of anger, resentment and fear because of something he did and said which I never addressed because I no longer felt completely safe with my exh emotionally. I had a chance in couples counseling to address it years later, but I wouldn't. I was quite frankly too afraid to do so, and too traumatized to be willing to open myself up to more of the same. I decided at that moment that my resentments and fears were my own problem to solve rather than choosing to tell him how much his words and actions hurt. I was wrong. Resolving that wasn't something I could do alone or even in IC, and it eroded my side of the marriage while allowing him to continue the behaviors which eventually led to his affair and finally to the breakdown of our relationship.
This doesn't negate that fact that my exMIL is, in fact, a true blue Narcissist of the hopeless variety, who caused incredible damage to her exh and her children and if I'm honest, to me as well. In fact, I'm just now unwinding how much personal damage she's caused me, years later, and how much damage she's tried to cause my son.
Does my exh exhibit narcissistic tendencies? Yup, but in his case I wouldn't label him a narcissist; rather he's the very damaged child of one. I've read that it's really almost impossible, especially for a son, to overcome the damage caused by a narcissistic mother. Does this give him a pass on the truly awful choices he's made? No. Was he physically and mentally compromised by his out of control hypothyroidism? Yes. Does this give him a pass on the truly awful choices he's made? No. Did he go through a MLC? He's the poster boy, if I use Michele's book as a guide. I've said it before and will again - her chapter on MLC in
Divorce Remedy made me feel like she'd written it from the comfort of my living room, using my exh as her prototypical MLCr. Does this give him a pass on the truly awful choices he's made? Once again, and emphatically, no.
The failure (God, that's still a hard one to type and admit to myself) of my marriage was due to a perfect storm of factors, some my fault, some exh's. I have to live with my mistakes just as he has to live with, and find some way to reconcile within his psyche, his own choices and mistakes.
May nailed it. There's a reason I don't read CW/Traveler's thread. Sorry T, you ask for help then not only don't take it, but justify all the behaviors which continue to hurt you and others. It's not easy to read. After a while, I stopped trying to help because I don't have enough energy to spare for someone who really doesn't seem to want to change their fundamental issues. It gets to a point, for me, when it actually hurts to read the ongoing damage. So I rarely do so any more and frankly, after this latest, I'm not going to follow along at all. The hardest thing we have to face is our own damage, but if we don't face it, acknowledge it, and do our best to heal from it, we will never live the life we could have. What we will have instead is a series of unsatisfying relationships with the common denominator being ourselves and a trail of broken hearts in our wake that we also have to feel guilty about. People who live that way do not have an easy end of life. I've seen it, and I don't want that for myself or anyone else for that matter, but others' life choices are not up to me. The change must come from within, and usually, in my observation, if that change happens for someone, it's because the fear of change hurts a lot less than repeating the ssdd.
LH, you talked a few posts back about honor and it so resonated with me. If we aren't honorable in word as well as deed, then what are we, really, and what do we have to offer the people in our lives? Maybe it's the writer in me, but I believe words have incredible power. If one says ILY, then one d@mn sure better back that up with action, not run when things come up which make one uncomfortable, or strike a nerve or trigger point.
Maybe I'm naive, a romantic fool, or immature or something because until reading all of this I never really considered that ILY meant such divergent things to some people. I took it at face value that ILY meant at the least a commitment to each other and the relationship, not something that one says lightly. Thanks. I'm wiser now. The kernel of hope for me in all of this is that the majority of people posting on the subject agree with my definition of ILY, so the odds are in my favor that the next time someone says those words to me there's a better than 50/50 chance they mean the same thing I do when I say ILY.
The question at the beginning of KMLs thread was about saying ILY, timeframes and dealbreakers. I find it so frustrating that someone would try to apply left brain ideas to love, of all emotions! We're not talking about how many sprockets fit into a box. It's love. People since the dawn of time have tried to describe it and cannot. For me, I don't say ILY lightly. Keeping score, it's been 25 years for LH since he said that and for me it's been since 1989. ILY implies 'in love' rather than what our Greek friends called Agape. There's a different expectation when one hears ILY, and there's an implicit obligation on the part of the one saying it that they will work hard to keep the object of their affection's heart safe.
Timeframes, really? Good luck with that. Timeframes are as individual as the relationships themselves.
Deal breakers. We all have them, but when I say ILY I don't mean "ILY unless you do/say/act/believe thus and such, then I'm out of here faster than you can say Jack Robinson." If that's your definition of love, I hope you find someone with the same definition, so fewer hearts will be broken. Do I have dealbreakers? Yes. It's why I never pursued anything with either A or K, but those guys were kept in the friend zone for a long time while I sussed out whether or not I wanted to pursue what they had to offer. Do dealbreakers come up after ILYs are said and if so, how do you handle that? Again, that's as individual as the people responding.