A future always happens

[AndrewP]

Sometimes the thread title comes to me only when I see job's message.

Prior thread
Rebuilding and Renewal - 8
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2928859&page=1

[LH19]

I've kept largely quiet during this debate - mainly because I don't want to get really dragged into an argument with people who have a fundamentally different world view than I do.

How do we see things different Andrew and should I take offense to this statement? Also we debate and give our opinions not argue.

I honestly don't "know" what drove my xW to cheat and then continue to cheat.

She was unhappy with the life she had and saw a better life with OM.

It was me that threw the towel in and requested a divorce which I still think shocked her.

Good for you dude!

I know that when I called her and gave her that final ultimatum she could do nothing other than weep.

Well and choose OM so those were most likely crocodile tears.

I honestly don't think she went "looking" for an affair which in no way in my opinion takes away from the fact that she had one.

Uuuummm I would think again.

I'm also confident that she wasn't wanting to let go of me and our life without nailing down her new one.

Uuuummm yeah. That's what monkey branchers do.

Something that from my limited knowledge wasn't an easy thing to do which is undoubtedly at least part of her "monkey branching".

Huh?

I hate applying labels to people and it's easy to toss them around as simple explanations of the complex. In the end though, she was a selfish jerk who I think went out of her way to give me a decent divorce settlement all things considered.

You have like 70 alimony payments left. Not a good deal IMO.

Look Andrew my EXW did the same thing as your but her OM dumped her. I don't ponder why she did it. I have moved on . You should do the same. We are here to help you move forward.

[Traveler]

Well and choose OM so those were most likely crocodile tears.

One can be selfish, roll the dice on a better life with someone else, and still feel terrified about giving up one's safety net. Been there, done that. What part of Andrew's tale makes you think the tears weren't a genuine display of emotion?

[LH19]

Well and choose OM so those were most likely crocodile tears.

One can be selfish, roll the dice on a better life with someone else, and still feel terrified about giving up one's safety net. Been there, done that. What part of Andrew's tale makes you think the tears weren't a genuine display of emotion?

Does it matter either way?

[Traveler]

Yes, in so far as he's worked through his anger enough to realize his ex is a flawed human being and not a monster. No, in that she's an ex and her true motives don't matter.

[Traveler]

(And aren't worth spending brain cycles pondering.)

[LH19]

(And aren't worth spending brain cycles pondering.)

You got that right cowboy.

[DonH]

What part of Andrew's tale makes you think the tears weren't a genuine display of emotion?

Well it almost certainly was a display of emotion. Was it genuine? Probably so. But WHAT was that genuine emoticon about? Did she feel bad for Andrew? Not likely. Was she worried about herself, her future, her needs? Very probably so. Many WAW are emotional but it’s all about them, they could often care less about the spouse they just dropped the bomb on. It’s all about THEM.

The thing is, LH is largely correct… most spouses are no longer happy or no longer feel connected or loved. Happy spouses rarely leave. Can it be something inside if them? Of course it can. Could it be how the left behind spouce behaved and treated them? It most certainly often is. But the great majority of the time it’s a combination of the two. It’s the faults of BOTH spouses. The LBS who wants to pin all or most of the blame on their spouse still has some lessons to learn.

[LH19]

What part of Andrew's tale makes you think the tears weren't a genuine display of emotion?

Well it almost certainly was a display of emotion. Was it genuine? Probably so. But WHAT was that genuine emoticon about? Did she feel bad for Andrew? Not likely. Was she worried about herself, her future, her needs? Very probably so. Many WAW are emotional but it’s all about them, they could often care less about the spouse they just dropped the bomb on. It’s all about THEM.

The thing is, LH is largely correct… most spouses are no longer happy or no longer feel connected or loved. Happy spouses rarely leave. Can it be something inside if them? Of course it can. Could it be how the left behind spouce behaved and treated them? It most certainly often is. But the great majority of the time it’s a combination of the two. It’s the faults of BOTH spouses. The LBS who wants to pin all or most of the blame on their spouse still has some lessons to learn.

I hate it when Don nails it. Loss of attraction typically comes from resentment. I’ve said before I read once it takes seven positive experiences to offset one negative experience. Those mismatches add up big time in long term marriages. Like when Andy’s W dyed her hair red and instead of him saying “baby you look sexy with your fiery red hair” he said “ your lying to yourself”. That put him seven in the hole. Next thing you know OM is complimenting the hairdo and the snowball starts rolling down the hill picking up steam fast.

[kml]

So LH, if the reason for your EA early in your marriage was that you lost attraction to your wife, why did it bother you so much years later when she cheated on you?

[devvo]

Look Andrew my EXW did the same thing as your but her OM dumped her. I don't ponder why she did it. I have moved on . You should do the same. We are here to help you move forward.

In the absence of any clear feedback from the WAS, (which is the case for pretty much anybody with an MLC WAS) how will we know that we've found the right 'failure' to work on avoiding next relationship? You say it doesn't matter because the WAS is an 'ex'. Why doesn't it matter? If you're saying it's at least partially the LBS' fault the WAS doesn't want to be there, how is the LBS to make sense of the WAS' departure without a bit of a ponder?

If you're as analytical as Andrew, an LBS would then go on to try and verify that any self-diagnosed failures are indeed root causes. Without clear feedback it's easy to pick potential root cause failures that perhaps weren't problematic. That might take a bit more pondering. Some people ponder a bit longer than others in the hope of a truer, more correct outcome.

I'm going to assume, LH, that you yourself actually did ponder where you went wrong in your relationship. How do you know though, if you were right? It probably goes without saying if you didn't ponder where you went wrong, you probably shouldn't be congratulating yourself for moving on. That's not moving on - that's just running away.

[LH19]

Look Andrew my EXW did the same thing as your but her OM dumped her. I don't ponder why she did it. I have moved on . You should do the same. We are here to help you move forward.

In the absence of any clear feedback from the WAS, (which is the case for pretty much anybody with an MLC WAS) how will we know that we've found the right 'failure' to work on avoiding next relationship? You say it doesn't matter because the WAS is an 'ex'. Why doesn't it matter? If you're saying it's at least partially the LBS' fault the WAS doesn't want to be there, how is the LBS to make sense of the WAS' departure without a bit of a ponder?

If you're as analytical as Andrew, an LBS would then go on to try and verify that any self-diagnosed failures are indeed root causes. Without clear feedback it's easy to pick potential root cause failures that perhaps weren't problematic. That might take a bit more pondering. Some people ponder a bit longer than others in the hope of a truer, more correct outcome.

I'm going to assume, LH, that you yourself actually did ponder where you went wrong in your relationship. How do you know though, if you were right? It probably goes without saying if you didn't ponder where you went wrong, you probably shouldn't be congratulating yourself for moving on. That's not moving on - that's just running away.

Devo I did delve into where I went wrong in the beginning. I’ve read countless books on relationships, attraction etc. I know where I went wrong and I have to live with it. Some day when I have the convo with my kids I have to own my part. I just answered the question for Andrew while he was pondering on his thread because believe it or not I’m trying to help him move forward. IMO 4 years later still pondering these questions seems like a waste of time.

[LH19]

So LH, if the reason for your EA early in your marriage was that you lost attraction to your wife, why did it bother you so much years later when she cheated on you?

It wasn’t so much that she she had an her EA we are all human and flawed it was that she gave up on the family with zero effort to try to repair it.

[bttrfly]

What part of Andrew's tale makes you think the tears weren't a genuine display of emotion?

Well it almost certainly was a display of emotion. Was it genuine? Probably so. But WHAT was that genuine emoticon about? Did she feel bad for Andrew? Not likely. Was she worried about herself, her future, her needs? Very probably so. Many WAW are emotional but it’s all about them, they could often care less about the spouse they just dropped the bomb on. It’s all about THEM.

The thing is, LH is largely correct… most spouses are no longer happy or no longer feel connected or loved. Happy spouses rarely leave. Can it be something inside if them? Of course it can. Could it be how the left behind spouce behaved and treated them? It most certainly often is. But the great majority of the time it’s a combination of the two. It’s the faults of BOTH spouses. The LBS who wants to pin all or most of the blame on their spouse still has some lessons to learn.

It can also be that the LBS did or said something that hit the original wound/trigger point. Suddenly they aren't leaving their spouse, they're reacting to the original wound and treating the LBS as though they were the original person to cause the LBS such deep pain. In the case of MLC, these are not rational people.

[bttrfly]

cause the MLCr not the LBS we NEED AN EDIT BUTTON, pretty please?

[bttrfly]

and yes, Don. Each person bears responsibility in the demise of a marriage.

[LH19]

Suddenly they aren't leaving their spouse, they're reacting to the original wound and treating the LBS as though they were the original person to cause the LBS such deep pain.

So I think you would agree that pain will cause a person to be unhappy right?

In the case of MLC, these are not rational people.

So BF if I murdered someone and I said MLC made me do it do you think that would stand up in court? Or did I make a conscious decision to murder someone knowing full well what the consequences are for the action?

[LH19]

I am flabbergasted how many of you take offense to the WW spouse being unhappy. I didn't even say it was the LBS fault. The egos on you people lol.

[bttrfly]

Suddenly they aren't leaving their spouse, they're reacting to the original wound and treating the LBS as though they were the original person to cause the LBS such deep pain.

So I think you would agree that pain will cause a person to be unhappy right?

In the case of MLC, these are not rational people.

So BF if I murdered someone and I said MLC made me do it do you think that would stand up in court? Or did I make a conscious decision to murder someone knowing full well what the consequences are for the action?

I'm not discussing this with you LH. Nor am I rising to your bait. My husband and I were in a marriage. It failed. You don't need to arm chair quarterback my life under the guise of helping me. When I want your help or anyone else's here, I will ask. To be clear, I haven't asked.

[kml]

I am flabbergasted how many of you take offense to the WW spouse being unhappy. I didn't even say it was the LBS fault. The egos on you people lol.

The danger in not saying that clearly LH is that LBSs are particularly prone to taking responsibility for the failure of the marriage on themselves - and it's really important for them to know that they were not in charge of their spouses happiness. Sure, there are bad spouses that are responsible for the breakdown of their marriage - that is NOT most people who linger here. Most of us have done tons of work on ourselves, re-examined our assumptions, improved ourselves - that is the gift of this crucible. But it's important for people to know that none of that will necessarily save the marriage because the typical LBS leaves because of their OWN issues, which may be unhappiness, or may be narcissism or sociopathy, or may be a cheater who has to leave because their spouse found out or because they get stuck in a relationship with an OM/OW through pregnancy or some other factor.

As for still trying to figure things out - that's REALLY important. People that don't do that repeat the same mistakes when they choose their next partners, or make other errors trying to partner up too quickly. When I say that my ex was an idiot who had it all and that his leaving was about his own issues, I can say that with confidence not because of my own ego, but because I have examined my role, his role, made numerous changes, seen hundreds of similar situations here, and seen both his behavior since the marriage and the viewpoint of several men who have dated me since the divorce. It is really freeing to understand in the rear view mirror that it truly never was about me. Analyzing what went wrong, what red flags we missed, how we might avoid similar mistakes in the future is important.

For instance - have you truly understood how YOUR affair may have been what brought down your marriage, LH? You swept it under the rug, buried it, and deprived your wife of the agency in her own life to decide whether she wanted to be married to someone who had cheated on her. She likely sensed something off in your relationship when you were in your affair - no one hides it as well as they think they do. She may have just thought you were stressed at work, or irritable for some mysterious reason, or whatever - but it likely changed your relationship in ways that you aren't aware. And I can only imagine that finding out years later that you had lied to her for YEARS - well, that may well have been the reason she wasn't willing to do the work to keep the family together. She might well have made different choices in her life in those years if she had known, even if she had stayed in the marriage. She might have made different career and financial choices, knowing that the marriage was on shaky grounds. Maybe it would serve you to do more work on why you cheated, rather than just "I was unhappy and I saw a better future with someone else". That's okay for when you are just dating, but not for when you have taken wedding vows.

[LH19]

As for still trying to figure things out - that's REALLY important. People that don't do that repeat the same mistakes when they choose their next partners, or make other errors trying to partner up too quickly.

I agree it's important to understand what you contributed to the downfall. Wondering why the other person left 4 years later is IMO a complete waste of time.

When I say that my ex was an idiot who had it all and that his leaving was about his own issues, I can say that with confidence not because of my own ego, but because I have examined my role, his role, made numerous changes, seen hundreds of similar situations here, and seen both his behavior since the marriage and the viewpoint of several men who have dated me since the divorce.

I agree. He left because he didn't see a happy future with you or had what he perceived as a better option. That is his issue and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you.

Maybe it would serve you to do more work on why you cheated, rather than just "I was unhappy and I saw a better future with someone else". That's okay for when you are just dating, but not for when you have taken wedding vows.

Well I never saw a better future with this woman. I was NEVER going to leave my W at the time for her. I got caught up in an EA that I shouldn't have that met some unfulfilled needs and I will regret it until the day I die.

[LH19]

I saw this reason article and it's highlights:

Kate Cohen-Posey, a mental health counselor, says that “80% of those who part due to infidelity regret their divorce – both the betrayer and the betrayed.”

She believes that it’s because “people who divorce due to cheating have greater post-divorce distress than from other types of marital ruptures, and remain emotionally connected to their spouses.”

Why Do Some Couples Wish They Hadn’t Got Divorced?
Among the reasons that most often make spouses regret their decision to divorce are:

feelings of loneliness;
renewed love;
the negative impact on children;
financial problems, etc.
The reasons for men and women differ.

Women regret divorce primarily because of children and insecurity. Men regret divorce mainly because they still love their ex-wife or because their following relationships keep failing.

Conclusion
Statistical data suggests that at least one-third of people regret their marriage dissolution.

That number can rise to 80% for ex-spouses who chose the wrong reasons to get divorced and feel that it could have been prevented if both parties had put forth more effort.

Thus, we should remember that every serious decision concerning family can have long-lasting consequences and should be made with a considerable amount of thought.

[AndrewP]

I figured that since I'm actually the OP on this thread that I should maybe say hello.

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Not much going on here. I've come down with something, probably Covid which hit me fairly hard on Sunday. I called my doctor's office and they said to isolate and not bother driving in to get tested. I got a good night's sleep, felt somewhat ok on Monday and Tuesday and then it hit me fairly hard on Wednesday. Feels just like a case of the flu but then again, I'm triple vaccinated so am likely getting off lighter than a middle-aged fat guy with a bum ticker would otherwise.

The doctor's office also insisted that all members of my household also isolate and asked their vaccination status. I assured them that the cat was up to date on all his feline shots and that both of us would stay home.

A couple of the guys at the plant have also come down with something too and have tested positive for Covid so the odds are pretty high that's what I've gotten. Given that there has been illness at the plant, the message came out to work from home if you can anyway over the weekend. The guys there are I hope taking more precautions than they have in the past to isolate etc. They'd gotten pretty lax over the past year.

My appetite has plunged, but my sense of taste is still there. Or at least the smoked kippers I had for breakfast certainly tasted nice - which they usually do for me. One advantage of living alone is that I don't have to worry about other people's sensitivities.

I have enough left-over haggis from Sunday to last a few weeks - going to have to package that up and freeze it I think.

The cat seems decently happy to have me around. He has a bed right in front of the vent in the home-office that he camps out in a lot of the time when I'm here. He's on my desk right now watching traffic out the office window.

---

Working from home when ill isn't great. It's difficult to keep focus and since I'm doing stuff, the expectation from my colleagues is that I'm running at full throttle. I actually emailed in yesterday that I was taking a sick day - after setting up the production plan, dealing with some customer enquiries and then went back to bed with my phone on silent. Put in another 4 hours in the afternoon doing planning for today's loads - so much for "day off". I did get about 13 hours sleep last night though and feel a bit better.

I'm thinking that I'll keep isolating through the weekend. Even though I try to keep what I have around to a minimum, I have lots of food. I did clear out my driveway so that my neighbours will know that I'm still alive and have let the kids know that I've been ill. My daughter and I chat back and forth almost every day so she'll know something's up if she doesn't hear from me.

In related news, the photos I mailed to my daughter have finally arrived and she's having fun going through them. I'm glad I scanned them in post bomb-day. There's a lot that she's never seen, especially of her and her brother which is specifically what she was looking for. After he was born, with two small kids and busy lives, we stopped putting photos into albums and they just ended up in boxes on a shelf. There's a lot of her mother and the whole family too of course. I didn't purge those although I did purge the digital copies of pictures of my xWife's family that she had that didn't include any of us.

Her mother has all the originals - I put them into the boxes I packed of stuff to take but who knows where they might be. Heck, some of the boxes were of things that were still packed from her child-hood home nearly 30 years previously so I wouldn't be shocked if there's stacks of unopened boxes at her house. It still baffles me what she made an effort to take when she moved out and what was left. She took all the more valuable antiques, collectibles and artwork but left the picture of her parents sitting on top of the piano along with numerous other more sentimental things related to her family. But then she took the picture of me that had been on her bedside table. I still shake my head sometimes. She certainly appeared to be a very confused gal from the outside. And since she went through the house numerous times when I wasn't here on "shopping trips" she could have picked up anything she missed the first big pass through.

---

The railway is continuing to have problems getting the job done - crew shortages were one of the reasons. It's been difficult for us but worse for the plant next door just down the line. They've not gotten a full switch in a couple of weeks and I believe have gone into shut-down. They're currently investigating if they can do some of their own intra-plant switching which they do a lot more than we do. For any intra-plant work we would do we would have to use the main line so that might not be an option for us. The railway is pretty particular about who is leaving cars laying around.

Given that we are primary commodity manufacturers I'm sure that these things that are affecting us are causing secondary and tertiary effects all through the economy. Going to be tough times for a while I think.

At least I have enough haggis and tea to last me for quite a while.

[DejaVu6]

Sorry to hear you are feeling poorly Andrew. I think it is probably fairly safe to assume you have Covid. KML probably knows more than me but I have heard that loss of taste and smell is not a common symptom of Omicron the way it was for previous variants. Take care of yourself… lots of fluids and rest. I know a number of people who are vaccinated and caught it. Some described it as flu-like, for others it was a scratchy throat and sniffles. None of them had symptoms for more than a week. Hopefully it will be the same for you. (((HUGS)))

[bttrfly]

feel better soon friend.

[kml]

Yeah, Covid. Make sure you get enough rest - Covid can have an up and down pattern, pushing too hard tends to cause relapses. If you must work from home, pace yourself.

If you can work from home, I’d stay home the whole ten days, even if you feel fine earlier, and wear a good N95 or KN95 mask when you go back to avoid spreading the virus. Earlier studies showed Covid patients shedding virus up to twenty days, most ok after 14. We really don’t have great data on the combination of breakthrough cases (shorter shedding time in vaccinated) and Omicron (shedding way more virus, which could prolong infectivity).

[Traveler]

Andrew, I’m sorry you aren’t feeling well, and glad you’re triple-vaccinated. I’ll defer to kml on bedside care but take care, get plenty of rest, snd drink some fluids.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Andrew

Glad you’re feeling not too bad. Although smoked kippers? You sure your sense of taste ain’t messed up? Lol.

Rest and get well soon.

D

[job]

Hope you feel better soon!

[DonH]

Sorry to hear that your number came up. It’s pretty clear at this point that everyone is going to get some form of Covid sometime in their lifetime, probably many times - just like we will get a cold or the flu or all sorts of other illness. It’s part of life. I seem to remember you being a very devout mask wearer though. Hmmmm. Guess the only way to really avoid it is to never leave your house and never let anyone in. Lots-O-fun that would be. It makes total sense not to bother seeking out a test. What would it change? Probably nothing. Just curiosity and nice to know. Now see, if you were a US citizen you could go online and order a Covid test that would arrive to your door in 10 to 14 days. LMAO. It is interesting your doctors office was pragmatic in saying don’t bother getting a test (it won’t change anything). This really is how we should have been dealing with this over a year ago. Get a bug, isolate, rest, get better. But then they asked if others in your house are vaccinated? What will this information provide? What good would it do? What does it change? Now asking you I get. But others who are symptom free????? Just nosy perhaps. It’s too late for them to get vaccinated now. Maybe they would offer some treatment if not vaccinated and positive?

I’m sure you’ll do fine like 99%+ of the others who are vaccinated, though it’s not a given but, very likely. You’ll also have T cell immunity and be much more protected from getting it again, at least for awhile. Another plus! Thankfully the trend in many places is clearly downward and will very likely continue falling through the summer and into the fall when it will rise up again. It used to be called cold and flu season. Now it’s going to be cold, flu, and Covid season. It’s now part of the human experience or the human condition. Get some rest and feel better soon!

[kml]

Remember, all, though, that deaths in hospitals right now from Covid are at the same levels as last winter. Most of those now in unvaccinated people. The documentary on Hulu The First Wave is about the initial wave of Covid, but the same darn thing is happening today in ICUs around the country - largely unnecessarily now. But with greater shortages of healthcare workers. And yeah, we have a few more treatments - but not enough and not strong enough to save everybody (imagine how much higher the deaths would be right now if we didn't have monoclonal antibodies and antivirals).

I hope, like you all do, for a quieter spring and summer. I hope the BA.2 "stealth" Omicron variant doesn't slow our recovery from this spike. But do not get overconfident. We cannot predict what will come in the future. A new variant that can evade our prior immunity is still a distinct possibility, made more likely by the extremely high numbers of people infected in this last wave. Covid will not "go away" nor is there any guarantee it will become milder. The best tool we have to keep people from dying is to stay up to date on your vaccinations and boosters.

[kml]

P.S. watch that documentary to see what health care workers have gone through and are STILL going through. If I hear one more patient tell me they're not getting vaccinated because they "did their research" I'm gonna throw up.

[Ginger1]

P.S. watch that documentary to see what health care workers have gone through and are STILL going through. If I hear one more patient tell me they're not getting vaccinated because they "did their research" I'm gonna throw up.

We just had a patient die of covd who came in with a "list of demands". NO remdesivir, no vaccination, no blood transfusions from someone with covid. Only to be treated with IVermectin. Guess what. He died at 68.

A 300lb unvaccinated 48 year old refused remdesivir too. But agreed to actemra. Makes no sense at all. He made it out. Age was on his side.

I had a 44 year old patient who went on and on about how she is anti vax ( like every vaccination). SHe got Covid, had a rough recovery, then came back for extensive PE's and actually said to me " I take alot of vitamins and tumeric, I don't understand why I am so sick".

This is where validation comes in handy. because i really wanted to say " really, you Fing idiot? you have no clue why you are so sick?!" Can't afford to lose my job

[kml]

Ugh. I hear you.

[AndrewP]

This is where validation comes in handy. because i really wanted to say " really, you Fing idiot? you have no clue why you are so sick?!" Can't afford to lose my job

My former doctor who retired a couple of years ago was hugely frustrated by the fact that so many of her patients had conditions that were essentially their own darned fault. I know my xW hated going to see her just to hear "if you lost a few pounds ...". At 4'11" and about 190lbs at the time it was no surprise that she had sore joints and some other pain issues as far as the doctor was concerned.

The doctor eventually went on sabattical and went to Israel for a few years just to get away from how people are around here.

Before she left, my xW took up hiking (which eventually became her cover story to see OM a few years later) and even did a couple of those "warrior dash" endurance races where she successfully finished. She was still pretty heavy by some people's standards when she left. No clue if she kept it up but I have my doubts. I was very proud and supportive of her for making these active choices for her health (not so about the OM thing )

For me, I'm quite a lot heavier than I want to be - back to pre bomb-day weight in fact. I did get down to 100 kg post bomb-day which is where I should be at. I think I eat pretty well which is an advantage of liking to cook - just undoubtedly too much. Portion control has always been an issue for me. I'll start making breakfast (my favourite meal) for example then look at it and realize that I probably could feed two with what I made. I know what I need to do with my diet - I paid a lot of attention during the divorce diet phase - just have to actually do it. Through the week is easier because I have an enforced portion control by the size of the lunch I make for myself which has a balance of fruit, vegetables, proteins and carbs). Breakfast of 2 eggs and porridge (just oats with a bit of local unpasteurized honey) is the standard then too vs some of the more elaborate things I'll do given time.

Still fuzzy headed and snuffly here. Going to keep isolated. I have enough groceries to get me easily through into mid-week next week without effort although I will run out of some things. I could probably easily go over a month if I had to before getting right to the end of things although it would get a bit monotonous towards the end. I hope to get out of here on Monday to top up the groceries but am feeling that I'm stuck inside for the weekend still. I want to be symptom free for at least a day or two before I interact with others.

Work continues to be tough. The railway didn't show up again last night which is leaving us tight. We have product we need to have in and need to get out and it's just not moving. One of our biggest customers is leaning on the railway (they are also one of the railway's biggest customers) to get us service tonight.

Ah well - time to focus and go through some numbers to see how to tick off the least number of customers.

[Dawn70]

Sorry you are sick. Here's hoping you kick the crud soon and Monty doesn't get it. LOL At least he has you home more, so there is that. Take care of yourself and rest when you can. And, still, come get your d@mn weather out of my yard. Winter can be done and just go straight to h3ll now.

[kml]

Andrew - the problem with self-righteous doctors about people’s weight is that everything they learned about obesity is wrong.

Sure, if someone is drinking soda all day and eating nothing but fast food - that’s a lifestyle obesity issue (although one enhanced by addictive chemicals in the food and economics that result in soda being cheaper than juice and food deserts in poor neighborhoods).

But - obesity is not as simple as calories in and calories out. Stool transplants can make a skinny person fat. Toxic chemicals in our environment and our food cause weight gain. Repeated restrictive diets lower your metabolic rate.

Modern medicine still has very little success with long term weight loss, and it’s offensive when they berate their patients without offering real solutions. I’ve had patients who were following strict 1200 calorie a day diets and not losing weight, while their doctors told them to “put down the cookies”!

[DonH]

The best tool we have to keep people from dying is to stay up to date on your vaccinations and boosters.

Sadly that is very true. Even more sadly it’s in large part our own doing and healthcare epic fails. What other illness is a vaccine pretty much the only tool being pushed. It’s all vaccinate vaccinate vaccinate even though the vaccines have fallen far short of what was advertised they would provide. Other countries are using a variety of early treatments and have done studies that appear to show these treatments work. The US has largely tried to keep treatments away from patients going as far as to dissuade and even persecute physicians who dare to use them. When that fails they try to get pharmacists to stop filling their prescriptions. And if that doesn’t work they go after their licenses - those who have not already been threatened with termination if they dare practice medicine. Even the newly released treatments are not being pushed. What other illness is the patient essentially told “well you should have gotten vaccinated. Go home and come back to the hospital if you get really sick and can no longer breathe.” What a joke. It’s been two years and we are doing no better than we were when this started or as KML states even with huge vaccination rates in the elderly and more than one out of two in all adults we still have the same number of deaths. That’s a healthcare fail.

Sadly healthcare is failing at an ever expanding rate outside of Covid with more and more staff getting frustrated and leaving the profession. It’s not good. It’s going to get way worse.

As for the weight loss, I don’t know a lot about it. I weigh the same now that I did in high school. I have noted however many who claim they’ve tried everything, they claim they have exercised, reduced calories, tried all sorts of diets, yet if anything they gain wait… until one day they get bomb dropped or divorced, or they have a family tragedy or they become very sick… and like magic within weeks to months they lose large amounts of weight. Wonder why that is.

[bttrfly]

As for the weight loss, I don’t know a lot about it. I weigh the same now that I did in high school. I have noted however many who claim they’ve tried everything, they claim they have exercised, reduced calories, tried all sorts of diets, yet if anything they gain wait… until one day they get bomb dropped or divorced, or they have a family tragedy or they become very sick… and like magic within weeks to months they lose large amounts of weight. Wonder why that is.

All I can say to this is I lost 25 pounds in less than 2 weeks after BD. Why? Because I could not keep food down. I felt physically ill if I ate more than 3 teaspoons of food at one time. It got to the point where I was drinking my food thanks to the Nutribullet my parents gave me. I would make one smoothie with veggies and protein and vitamins and have to nurse it all day, because even that would make me sick if I drank more than a couple of mouthfuls every couple of hours. Within 8 weeks I'd lost 45 pounds. It wasn't a healthy way to lose weight. I also did not sleep more than 1/2 hour to (eventually) an hour at a stretch for months. I don't recommend it.

[DnJ]

Ditto bttrfly.

That divorce diet is a terrible way to loose weight. Fitful sleeps. Anxiety. Terror. Yep, not recommended at all! Lol.

[Ginger1]

I can tell you had to lose postpartum weight. The divorce diet! That baby weight came right off plus some.

But there is something funny about that divorce diet weight that comes off. I was at an ideal weight when I lost it. And everyone , including me thought I looked “too thin”. A doctor I worked with expressed concern over my weight loss.

It’s not really the healthy kind

[Ginger1]

I wish I could edit that. I was interrupted by some crazy teens in my house

[kml]

It’s been two years and we are doing no better than we were when this started or as KML states even with huge vaccination rates in the elderly and more than one out of two in all adults we still have the same number of deaths. That’s a healthcare fail.

No - because the vast majority of the deaths are in the unvaccinated now. That’s not a healthcare fail, it’s the result of massive amounts of disinformation being fed to people. And it would be greAt if one of the off label drugs actually worked but so far the evidence shows they don’t. Fluvoxamine maybe, it’s too early to tell. Pfizer’s new antiviral drug reduces hospitalizations by 90% but it’s slow to manufacture so supplies are limited. Two of the three monoclonal antibodies don’t work against Omicron at all. But if everyone would just get vaccinated we would see a 90% drop in Covid deaths. Better still if they would also wear their masks so we can decrease the spread.

The horrible strain on our healthcare system is due to the people who refuse to get vaccinated. We have a great supply of free, very effective vaccines. That’s a healthcare success. But you can’t fix stupid.

[BL42]

I lost 30 lbs after BD and IHS. When I found this site I was amazed how common the drastic weight loss was among those posting here. So many sitches I read through where 25-30lbs seemed to be spot on.

[AndrewP]

But - obesity is not as simple as calories in and calories out. Stool transplants can make a skinny person fat. Toxic chemicals in our environment and our food cause weight gain. Repeated restrictive diets lower your metabolic rate.

There's a lot of interesting science being done in this area in recent years. From some points of view, a body could be looked at as a colony organism like a coral reef with micro ecosystems scattered throughout.

Stepping even farther back, we're really just some chemistry that has figured out how to self-replicate. But when I go down that path, I start wondering about bigger questions about vital forces and what actually makes a living creature a living creature. My mind thinks that it "must" be something more than just chemical reactions, some sort of - for lack of better word - divine spark.

Modern medicine still has very little success with long term weight loss, and it’s offensive when they berate their patients without offering real solutions. I’ve had patients who were following strict 1200 calorie a day diets and not losing weight, while their doctors told them to “put down the cookies”!

I had actually been tracking my caloric and nutrient intake via an app pre-bomb day. Back then it was close to 3,000 calories / day and included a lot of carbs. Right after bomb-day it plunged to about 1,200 calories and stayed there for about 2 months. By the time in-house separation ended and I was on my own I was about 1,800 calories and weight was still dropping. Of course I was also walking obsessively, probably 10-15 hours / week easily. I've not been tracking lately but am probably a bit over 2,000 calories / day which "should" be where I should be.

Interestingly to me, my weight gains haven't been gradual. I'll just suddenly put on 5lbs of weight that refuses to leave - seemingly over the course of a day or so. I then work on grinding that down with limited success.

I do agree that some medical practitioners can be myopic about weight. I recall when I was at my most fit prior to being married. I'm 5' 11" and weighed 185lbs then. I had abs (fuzzy ones but they were there) and such low body fat that you could see muscle definition fairly clearly.

My doctor called me overweight and told me I should be 145 lbs based solely on their chart. I'm a pretty big guy with wide shoulders and very dense bones. I'd be skeletal at that weight. Even now if I told someone that I needed to lose 50 lbs (which I do) they'd look aghast not thinking I had that much to lose. I'm fortunate that I carry it well but know that it's there.

I was surprised to learn in recent years that the body burns fat through the lungs by creating organic ketones like acetone which I think there are some people who have built sensors to measure. I would joke with "B" that heavy breathing was very good for weight-loss But I do agree that the science has more or less agreed that it's what you put in to your body that makes the difference. Both how much and what.

My goal is to work harder on portion control. Continue to eat healthy with as little processed food as possible (making a pot of extra-spicy chili today). I need to get my activity level increased, not so much for the weight loss, but a car that sits in the garage gets all rusty. Got to keep things moving in all parts of the cardio-vascular system. But for right now with it being about -30C outside and on what I think will be my last day of isolation (feeling a lot better), I'm just going to take it easy still.

[Ginger1]

I am going to strongly suggest a book/podcast by a nephrologist , if I am allowed. “The obesity code” by Dr Jason fung.

It is life changing. The reason why long term weight loss is not sustainable is because we have been told to do it all wrong. You can restrict calories all you want, but if those calories have a negative impact on your insulin, you won’t sustain weight loss.

He isn’t a diet guru . He’s a real doctor who cares for many many patients who were diabetics with renal failure and obese. He wanted to figure out how to help them. And he did.

The book is science. Not opinion. I suggest the book and or his pod casts

[AndrewP]

I am going to strongly suggest a book/podcast by a nephrologist , if I am allowed. “The obesity code” by Dr Jason fung.

My public library has a digital copy that I've requested. Thanks.

[LH19]

If you ever listen to Tony Robbins he breaks people down into two categories. People who must have a healthy body and people who feel they should have a healthy body. People who must will find a way. People who should or would like to won’t because it’s too difficult and they just don’t have the motivation.

[Ginger1]

I think what is in question is HOW to make the body healthy in a long lasting healthy way.

People usually go about it wrong. There of course has to be effort to do it, and some people require more effort than others due to physical factors. However, it is doable. And much more doable when done know a healthy way

[Traveler]

Sometimes I have an amazingly fit body, sometimes I have an amazingly obese body. It takes effort to build healthy habits. When those break down--due to temporary re-prioritization (life changes, emergencies, medical advice, medical issues)--they can be difficult to rebuild. I hope someday weight loss is "solved' and 80%+ in our countries have healthy weights for life.

[bttrfly]

I lost 30 lbs after BD and IHS. When I found this site I was amazed how common the drastic weight loss was among those posting here. So many sitches I read through where 25-30lbs seemed to be spot on.

According to Christopher Titus (Love is Evol) that's because that's how much a soul weighs. Grim humor. Worth a watch.

[DonH]

Just to be clear, I’m not at all advocating people do a divorce, bomb drop or any other type of crash diet. It’s not healthy. My entire point is to point out the very same body (person) that loses 30 pounds without even trying but can’t lose the same 30 pounds when they try. Their body is clearly capable of the weight loss, but as LM sort of points out, they are not and instead blame other reasons. This does not apply to everyone. There are clearly medical reasons for some not being able to shed pounds. It’s just not the norm.

KML you’ve turned into a one song band singing the same song over and over again. We’ve tried masks for 2 years and vaccines for 1. If that’s still all we are pushing it’s a fail. Medication that works but can’t be obtained is a fail. I’m just judging by results. Slowly but surely the religious mask wearers and basement hiders are also getting Covid - while still claiming hiding away and wearing mask works.

The two (weight loss and Covid) are very much the same - blaming other reasons for the failures. We’ve got to get better at Covid treatment. We did it for HIV. We can do it for this virus - but not if we don’t think about and try different things.

[kml]

Lol - Don, we didn’t get better at HIV treatment for a decade and we STILL don’t have a vaccine. People still need to wear condoms and practice safe sex to prevent its spread. What we have achieved with Covid is a freaking miracle. Paxlovid has only just been approved (because research takes time ) and takes five months to manufacture. The failure of two out of three monoclonal antibodies because of a new variant is just one of the things that can happen with a new virus. The best way to alleviate the terrible pressure on our hospitals and medical staff right now is for people to get vaccinated and to continue the public health measures that slow the spread - masks and distancing.

[OwnIt]

I've spent a lot of my life dealing with issues pertaining to diet, being exposed to issues around diet, been a life-long dieter (since about 21 anyway), and have failed many a diet.

Losing weight is not about willpower. People have the will, they often don't have the knowledge, the resources, or the emotional ability to see it through. Ginger is correct, Dr. Fung's book is life-changing. I mentioned on my thread the other day about work on aging, which very much correlates with Dr. Fung. The geneticist behind the work on aging I mentioned is an intermittent faster and like Dr. Fung sees glucose/insulin as a major contributor to most health issues, including aging.

I lived with someone for 25 years who wanted me to be thin. He became obsessed with diet and was an early adopter of paleo/Atkins/Keto/intermittent fasting. He begged me to read the Obesity Code and I finally did. But what he could not do, was to change my thoughts around food, how I interacted with food, and how my brain processed thoughts around food.

Obesity can, I think, in some instances be medically-related and be in a different ballpark I'm not addressing here. For the most part, obesity is driven by other factors. There are people who don't have access to grocery stores/farmer's markets and fresh fruits and vegetables, there are people who don't have access to information about how we lose and gain weight, there are people who don't have the funds to buy healthy foods. Those are social issues that society as a whole needs to resolve. There are many doctors who shame obese patients without endeavoring to help them. Obese patients often avoid doctors as a result (I am one who did). Most doctors get a couple of hours of training on nutrition and obesity (as my then H confirmed). Perhaps it is different now.

There are experiments showing that little girls playing with dolls would rather play with the ones missing arms/legs than be fat. As all other forms of discrimination started to become unacceptable, it was still safe to discriminate against fat people. Think of how many movies have the fat character, the fat target of the joke, etc. I won't get into body positivity here, there are parts I agree with, but parts I think are misguided from a scientific point of view.

I could easily lose weight on a carb-restricted diet. What I could not do, is stop the mental thoughts around restriction/deprivation/scarcity. As a result I always gained the weight back (and then some). Weight loss has two components: the physical part and the mental part. To lose weight and keep off, both of those have to be in the picture.

I wake up every day now and make a commitment to myself about what I will eat for the day (I write it down). I only eat when I'm hungry. I stop eating the moment I'm satisfied (and if I'm not sure I wait 20 minutes or more after I've eaten and drink to make sure I'm not thirsty). I eat very few carbs, I generally eat only once a day, but if I want a carb or I want more food, I eat it as ong as I've planned for it and if I haven't I consider it an urge that I need to resist.

I have told myself there are no foods that I cannot have. There are no banned foods (even carbs). I just ask myself to plan for it. To move the urge from the primitive brain to the logical brain which can (the next day or a future day) say, huh, do you really want that cookie you wanted yesterday? You know it will cause an insulin spike and cause a cascade of events that will take a lot of time and effort to recover from. Guess what, I never want the cookie anymore. The difference between a primitive brain afraid of scarcity and telling me to eat it now in case I don't have the chance later, and a logical brain that says hey, the fridge has food, the supermarket is open, there is always another cookie, so is that what you really want to do? Again, the answer is usually no. But when it is, I eat the cookie, don't beat myself up over it, and don't have perfectionist fantasies of oh well, I blew that, I may as well eat everything I can, start again on Monday, next week, the New Year, etc.

I've never been a drinker, but I know there is a concept of a dry drunk. When I lost weight in the past I was white-knuckling it, waiting for the reward later and the diet to be over. I failed every time. Now I just see myself as someone (like most people) who doesn't handle glucose/insulin well. But the difference is that I'm letting my logical brain control the situation and not creating a sense of deprivation. Just as I understand recovering alcoholics benefit from continuing participation in meetings, I will continue to follow the research on obesity, participate in the discussion, and make this a priority. But I will no longer feel shame for what I weigh, look down on other people who don't have the benefit of the resources, education, and time that I do, or simply have not chosen to make this a priority in their own life as I have.

[AndrewP]

Grrr - railway has bailed on us for the better part of a week. They can't put together a complete crew. If one guy on a crew is sick, they cancel the run since they don't mix separate crews together. Kind of makes sense as I would expect running a train and swapping cars in and out of sidings is undoubtedly complicated and requires close team-work. I have a call in to my service rep to see if he can confirm if we'll get a switch tonight. Latest news is that it's looking unlikely.

I have 5 cars on my siding that should have shipped out last week and now am up to 23 cars waiting to be called in. Just getting behinder and behinder. I have one tank that is completely full so production has been diverted (can't just turn this thing on and off) and two tanks that are pretty much completely dry.

Rather worrisome given that we're on the back end of the supply chain as a bulk commodity producer. Each car holds a bit under 200,000 lbs of product that we make out of air, water and gruffy dust so that comes to a bit over 6 million pounds of raw materials that aren't moving. And we're one of the smaller producers in our industry much of which moves by rail. I've seen a few customers pop out of the wood-work in recent times too who had gone to our competitors - so I expect everyone is struggling.

I'm still working from home for this week to minimize the people at the plant. I was talking to the lead operator this morning who was still coughing like a life-long smoker. Worried about a few of the guys. One of them - who works in an out-building by himself has a wife with COPD and refuses to go into the main plant for very good reason.

Our plant staff is split about 50-50 between guys my age and the under 30 crowd. Most of the drivers who haul our loads are in their 50s or later. Not a lot of young guys want to haul hazardous bulk even though the pay is good. It's a tough rig to handle and takes very steady nerves.

[kml]

How are you feeling? Well enough to be shoveling all that snow without relapsing?

I’m actually surprised that the supply chains haven’t broken down more and earlier than they have. Then again, the thing about Omicron, at least in the States, is that as bad as the numbers look - the real numbers are likely 5-10 times higher due to widespread use of rapid tests which are not getting reported. Thank god Omicron did turn out to be less deadly than delta, if it had been the equally deadly with this high transmission we would be seeing society starting to break down right now.

[AndrewP]

How are you feeling? Well enough to be shoveling all that snow without relapsing?

Thanks for checking in. I actually have a nice little self-propelled snowblower that does all the heavy work. I did shovel the drive by hand while it was above freezing - just a couple of inches - but I didn't want it to freeze in place. I had to go in to town yesterday at lunch on an errand and saw OM out shoveling out their driveway by hand. We'd gotten close to a foot of snow on top of the wet stuff that my snowblower dealt with without issue.

I'm feeling "ok". Still have a touch of a cough that gets better every day.

I heard from 20S yesterday. She's stuck in isolation in a hotel paid for by her employer (she lives with her Gran so probably a good thing) and has tested positive. The group home she works at has pretty much everyone both staff and kids down with Covid. Not good.

I’m actually surprised that the supply chains haven’t broken down more and earlier than they have.

Keep in mind that even with just-in-time inventory that most places try to operate at, the supply chain is a pretty long and slow moving thing. For example I have about 200,000lbs of potassium hydroxide sitting on a siding right now that I can't get to - railway cancelled again last night. I believe that the end customer is using this as part of their paper making process. Stock up on toilet paper This load should have been unloaded nearly a week ago so my customer's customer has probably had to pause their production until we can get this on to our siding and unloaded.

Most of the logistics companies I deal with are short on drivers. We used to be able to promise customers delivery within a couple of days of order. We're now out almost a full week. I'm having to make decisions now on more or less which customers to disappoint because we just don't have the product to ship even if we had a truck to haul it with. I have noticed as well that a few of our customers for one of our more unique products seem to have just dropped off the map which in some ways is good because my tanks are pretty dry. But worrying as well. Their order patterns historically have been very stable with a lot of them taking 18-20 tonnes every 3 or 4 weeks.

---

In other news I did a foray into online dating and got some success. A local charity offered "blind dates with a book" so I picked one up. I'm looking forward to seeing who my date is. Currently they're wrapped up in plain paper and string in my living room. I'm sure they'll be fine there for a week or so

[Traveler]

I have noticed as well that a few of our customers for one of our more unique products seem to have just dropped off the map which in some ways is good because my tanks are pretty dry. But worrying as well. Their order patterns historically have been very stable with a lot of them taking 18-20 tonnes every 3 or 4 weeks.

A loss in volume doesn't bode well long-term. Hopefully, it's bound to a reduction in demand that will rectify as markets open up more, and not them switching to one of your competitors. Everyone is having supply chain issues so my money would be on the former.

In other news I did a foray into online dating and got some success. Currently they're wrapped up in plain paper and string in my living room.

I rest my case--if your living room's clear of baggage, dating is easy!

[AndrewP]

I rest my case--if your living room's clear of baggage, dating is easy!

Especially since it's a brown paper package tied up with string .... this is one of my favourite things ....

[AndrewP]

Being a single parent even with adult kids can be tough. Boy - I wish I could "send for backup". Not that the kids' Mother would be of much use, she just tended to get angry if there were any issues.

Nothing really serious though - just be nice to have some help. Double-teaming the kids was a lot more effective.

Friday night I was starting to run the water into the tub for my Friday night soak and movie (Treasure of the Sierra Madre) when the land-line rang. It was my son who apologized for not getting back to me (last I saw him was at Christmas) and that yes, he was on for brunch on Sunday. We chatted for a bit, caught up on some of his accomplishments (finally has his full driver's license) and then he mentioned that he was in a parking lot in the town his mother lives in and had locked his keys in his car. Sigh. It's only 10 minutes away for me and I have his spare key. Not clue if his mother does or not - she would have been 3 minutes.

Sigh

I drove in, we chatted some more and he mentioned in passing that he'd just left his job with no other job to hand. I knew he'd been unhappy there, made noises of support and reassured him that if he got stuck that the Bank of Dad could help out. He assured me that there would be no need. Of course though that put my worry warts into over-drive.

---

Had a lovely brunch with him today. Got a few more details. He's been having a lot of stress around his job so I suppose it was a positive thing. He's examining his options which include going back to school in some fashion. He's kind of stuck in his geography as he has a pretty cheap apartment but there are in fact quite a few options around both for education and employment. We chatted for a couple of hours - the cafe is located in an old mill that is also a book-shop so we wandered around there for a while too looking for some specific books I'm wanting and he browsed for himself.

His cat is doing fairly well. He has her on a diet because when her sister got sick she was eating both of their dinners and got rather chunky. He's also thinking very hard about adopting a kitten to have 2 cats again. I did warn him that if he got more than one (then they'd have a buddy) that the smell of 3 cats in a one-bedroom apartment might be a bit much which he agreed with.

He's pretty excited about the Super Bowl coming up - he's a Bengals fan. I understand very little of such things so he kept the explanations simple so that's going to occupy him next Sunday. He's well supplied with food. He just pulled his 18lb turkey out of his freezer and plans on cooking that up later this week. He's seen me do up the duck for enough years that he'll figure out the left-overs and probably make broth as well. So I don't need to worry about his food supplies. I was actually very proud of him when he was talking about what he's been eating lately. No convenience foods, everything made from scratch using whole ingredients. It's perhaps funny in some ways that I've perhaps been a bigger influence on his diet, cooking and housekeeping than his mother. I think that the years he spent here with it being the two of us were very formative for him.

Despite my worries I think he's doing ok. It bothers me more than a bit that this young man who is coming up on 28 seems to be just drifting along. I suppose that I can't measure him against the standards of my generation though. I do hope that he gets his next thing sorted out fairly soon. He's probably got at least a couple of months expenses saved - he spends practically no money and has no interest in "stuff".

I'm proud of both of my children. They are great human beings. Are they as materially successful as I might hope? Nope. They both though have their feet under them and are determined to make it on their own and don't want any sort of rescue from Dad. They also know that Dad is out there though.

As a funny aside we chatted a bit about if something where to happen to me. My son's opinion - and probably a correct one - is that his sister who is an organizing diva would have everything sorted out and he would be "boots on the ground" and certainly take in my cat. Nice to know that he's got a clear vision on things although both of us expect these sort of issues to be at least 20 years out at least.

---

On Friday night I nearly reached out to his mother though - someone who the last time - probably 6 years ago I tried to co-parent with just told me that I needed to just tell him what to do and that he should just listen to me. She did always try to make me the heavy. Wish I had some help on this which I think is something that pretty much everyone else here can sympathize with.

---

Just needed to get that off my chest. Monthly house-cleaning done. Haggis again for dinner with fresh bread. The diet book suggested here was released by the library to my e-reader. I've made a start on it so that will probably be my companion tonight. I don't really expect it to have an opinion on haggis though.

[DnJ]

Hello Andrew

Congratulations to son! Yay, his full license. That’s great!

I do hope son finds other employment. However, further education is a very good thing as well. Especially when they are older, and have seen and be treated by the world. My oldest boy went to university with a more zestful approach than when in high school. If S28 were to decide something along those lines, university, trades, whatever, I’d suspect he’d push all in.

Being a single parent even with adult kids can be tough. Boy - I wish I could "send for backup".

I hear you man.

On Friday night I nearly reached out to his mother though - someone who the last time - probably 6 years ago I tried to co-parent with just told me that I needed to just tell him what to do and that he should just listen to me. She did always try to make me the heavy. Wish I had some help on this which I think is something that pretty much everyone else here can sympathize with.

I empathize with how things feel right now, yet reaching out is not likely to garner a better way forward than what you are doing.

Forgive me if I’m a bit dense here, “wish I had some help on this”, sounds like there is more to “this” than you related. Perfectly fine, and I’m not prying, to be clear. I know you are a responsible level headed guy who wouldn’t consider reaching out over minor stuff. Big old (((bro hug))) for you.

And yes, getting it off your chest always makes the load a bit lighter.

Take care my friend.

D

[bttrfly]

I had to reach out to my ex this week relating to an insurance issue (he carries son's insurance)... that's was such a boatload of fun I'm sure I'll do it again real soon (sarcasm dripping off my keyboard) ...

Your son's come a long way and will do fine. You've set a great example for him!

[kml]

If your son has any interests in healthcare or teaching, there will be openings in those fields for years to come. Many boomers retired sooner than planned because of the pandemic.

[AndrewP]

Forgive me if I’m a bit dense here, “wish I had some help on this”, sounds like there is more to “this” than you related. Perfectly fine, and I’m not prying, to be clear. I know you are a responsible level headed guy who wouldn’t consider reaching out over minor stuff.

Yeah, there is more. Things I wish I knew how to fix but also know that they are beyond my skills. They are also probably beyond his mother's skills too. It comes down in my mind to the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

Fortunately he is a good kid who has grown a lot in his self awareness in recent years. He'll be fine. It would just perhaps be easier if his support team was unified in their approach. I operate assuming I am doing this alone and hoping I am wrong.

[devvo]

Andrew I know exactly how you feel. Both of my sons have needed careful parenting over the last couple of years and I've felt like I'm operating blindfolded and with one arm tied behind my back. Everybody knows that a unified approach from the parental units is Parenting 101. Everybody on this board also knows the chances of us being able to achieve that are pretty much nil.

It can sometimes be just a little bit depressing.

[LH19]

Nothing really serious though - just be nice to have some help. Double-teaming the kids was a lot more effective.

Why can't you text/email your ex concerns about your son?

I drove in, we chatted some more and he mentioned in passing that he'd just left his job with no other job to hand.

So when my kids were young my ex and I started a rule that if you join/start something you need to finish it. We would not let them quit things half way through. Mainly for this reason to show them you have to finish things out even if you don't like it.

I knew he'd been unhappy there, made noises of support and reassured him that if he got stuck that the Bank of Dad could help out.

So do you think that statement helped or hampered his urgency to obtain new employment?

Despite my worries I think he's doing ok.

You say this then.......

It bothers me more than a bit that this young man who is coming up on 28 seems to be just drifting along.

You say this. Which is it?

I suppose that I can't measure him against the standards of my generation though.

Why? What's changed? Adults need to work and take care of themselves.

He's probably got at least a couple of months expenses saved - he spends practically no money and has no interest in "stuff".

Does a couple months savings sound good to you?

On Friday night I nearly reached out to his mother though - someone who the last time - probably 6 years ago I tried to co-parent with just told me that I needed to just tell him what to do and that he should just listen to me. She did always try to make me the heavy. Wish I had some help on this which I think is something that pretty much everyone else here can sympathize with.

I set my issues aside and talk strictly business with my ex when it comes to the kids. Maybe something to think about?

[DnJ]

Good Morning Andrew

For many LBS with an (ex)spouse who basically abandons their parental duties, we end up doing double duty.

Along with being the positive role model; explaining the facts of life; the bank of Dad (or Mom for those gals out there reading my good friend Andrew’s thread); being the strong stable parent; accepting/listening to angry outburst from sad/confused kids who cannot yell at their less stable other parent for fear of loosing them; we do double duty with loving parental concern too.

Things I wish I knew how to fix but also know that they are beyond my skills.

Unless you broke him, you cannot fix him. However, you can certainly influence and inspire him. Son will grow and heal himself, within your kind guidance.

just be nice to have some help. Double-teaming the kids was a lot more effective.

[XW] told me that I needed to just tell him what to do and that he should just listen to me. She did always try to make me the heavy.

I think you know how ineffective a coparenting team would be.

What made the prior team effective is still here - you. Remember, it only take one strong stable parent.

I operate assuming I am doing this alone and hoping I am wrong.

Interesting.

I operate and do this as if I’m alone, and hope oddly doesn’t factor in.

It would just perhaps be easier if his support team was unified in their approach.

At first, that seems true. Even noble, or something worthy of seeking out. It is a good strategy when kids are young, and we carry that belief forward as they grow up and become adults.

At 28, son now (or can) benefits from dissimilar viewpoints. If all one hears is the same message from all sources, one never finds or challenges their convictions.

I drove in, we chatted some more and he mentioned in passing that he'd just left his job with no other job to hand. I knew he'd been unhappy there, made noises of support and reassured him that if he got stuck that the Bank of Dad could help out. He assured me that there would be no need. Of course though that put my worry warts into over-drive.

When my eldest son quit his well paying job of somewhere around $60,000 / year, I was worried. He had saved, not purposefully albeit, still saved nonetheless, quite a bit of cash. He had by this point gone through three well paying jobs. Life kicked him around a bit, realized that the good pay with his education / skill set came from working some long nonstandard hours. Early mornings as a trucker, weekends as at the tire shop (even with his starring role in a commercial ), soft drink delivery man (another Class 1 driving gig) had few but really long days, like 14-16 hours.

So, he decided to go to university. Poof, and just like that, no income.

My support, as you can probably guess, was completely for him. My advice and suggestions and clarifying questions were middle of the road. Both sides. Pros and cons. To encourage and help him to see his reasons and find his convictions. After all, it’s his life, not mine.

I will and do, tell people to do a certain action when necessary. If someone is floundering and drowning, they usually need to be told and directed to grab the life preserver I threw out to them. Once safe and calm, we can discuss the situation. How/why they find themselves here, and where and what to do now. I’m sure you can see how that applies here. It also applies to our interactions with our kids.

Son’s not drowning. Discuss where and what he wants to do now.

It bothers me more than a bit that this young man who is coming up on 28 seems to be just drifting along. I suppose that I can't measure him against the standards of my generation though. I do hope that he gets his next thing sorted out fairly soon. He's probably got at least a couple of months expenses saved - he spends practically no money and has no interest in "stuff".

I understand your reaction to feel you should not measure son to “our” generation’s standards. Ask yourself why? Why can’t I? Why shouldn’t I?

Dig a bit.

You should measure him against that standard. For he is.

Son looks up to you. Who do you think he is measuring himself to? Who do you measure yourself to?

Believe me, son (and people in general) will amaze, often surpassing expectations when those expectations are clearly set.

This is not the arena where we keep expectations to zero. That is for interactions with irrational emotionally driven individuals.

Healthy, rational, strong, stable people require expectations. Goals, timeframes, deadline, and such. Expectations from both authority and self. That fosters responsibility, accountability, honour, loyalty, perseverance, and so on. Instils and inspires generationally handed down standards of conduct and life.

Don’t leave something that important to some goof YouTube influencer.

Without guidance, kids, people, will find it. And often accept without question. Provide viewpoints and discussion, and people can make their path and way in life. With the appropriate challenging questions along the way.

I'm proud of both of my children. They are great human beings. Are they as materially successful as I might hope? Nope. They both though have their feet under them and are determined to make it on their own and don't want any sort of rescue from Dad. They also know that Dad is out there though.

Fantastic! What a great foundation!

Fortunately he is a good kid who has grown a lot in his self awareness in recent years. He'll be fine.

Yes, he will be fine. Be open and discuss things with him.

Recently my daughter moved into a house with three roommates.

One day, a few weeks ago, she called out of the blue and ask me what I thought about her maybe moving into a four bedroom house. We discussed. She’d have three roommates and her rent would be half. Bills, electricity, internet, etc, would be roughly a quarter. Basically same distance from university, and classes are still mostly online. Same part of town, so same perceived safe neighbourhood. Three people, roommates, bring challenges. Things she hadn’t yet had to deal with. Common spaces, boyfriend/girlfriends visiting, your food disappearing, dishes, etc.

I batted around the pros and cons with her, and basically agreed that this sounded like a good thing. I then said, you are 19, you know don’t need my permission, you can move if you want. She laughed and said, yes, but I want and value your opinion.

Kids seek out guidance. And measure themselves. Be the role model they “expect” and need.

Kids really do work to make us proud. Ensure you tell them you are. Directly. Openly.

The next call, was to borrow the truck. Lol. A quick hi, bye, got to go. Ha, kids.


Andrew, I believe you are doing a good job. Just some encouragement and thoughts from a friend.

D

[Ginger1]

I know LH can be a snarky A$$. Sometimes, but he is on point.

At 28 I was a newly divorced mother of a baby. Lord knows my life didn’t go age appropriately.

As an adult your son let go of his job without a back up plan. And you let him know the bank of dad is available? You say he is drifting, so how does that motivate him to get focus?

As bank of dad , the only offer of help I would give would be a trade school. The guy I did go on that date with told me the story about how he went to a 4 year college and didn’t want to do what his major was. His grandmother offered to pay for a technical school and if he didn’t get a job in one month, he had to pay her back. Well, he did all over the above and has loved what he does for years

I realize as a parent it can be counterintuitive as well. We want to fix everything for them. But we only hurt them when we enable them.

If given the opportunity, what would you want from your ex in coparenting this situation ?

[LH19]

I know LH can be a snarky A$$.

WTF???????? et to Ginges

[AndrewP]

If given the opportunity, what would you want from your ex in coparenting this situation ?

I honestly have no idea. It's been so long and the kids' lives have changed so much in the past 6 years that I don't know. There's days though as I'm sure you can appreciate where it would be nice to be on a team to do the parenting vs doing it alone. It's the hand that's dealt me so it's the hand I play.

I could get him a job next week with a couple of phone calls. He knows this. We've talked about it before - he has the training and skills to do quite a number of things already. He wants to do it on his own and he's a grown man and will do what he thinks is best.

He emphatically doesn't want any sort of rescue and he certainly doesn't want me telling him what to do. He'll figure it out. I see my role as being supportive and listening to him. I would be beyond shocked if he did actually ask for money and I certainly am not pushing him to take any.

If his mother wants to have any involvement in his life that's between her and him and has nothing to do with me. Everyone involved in this are adults and have agency to make their own choices. I'm not going to shove myself into anything that doesn't involve me.

It's like I told him when we were out to brunch. It's not often a person gets the opportunity to re-think how they want to live their lives. He has no dependents other than his cat. Few bills, no real debt. He could open a taco stand or do whatever. The world is his oyster. Hmmm - seafood tacos? Now I'm hungry.

[kml]

Well aren't we being a judgy group? It's been my observation that kids these days suffer generally from much higher rates of depression and anxiety than in my generation. As the parent of three kids who have suffered from (variously) depression, anxiety, OCD, Tourette's, Asperger's, anorexia and bulimia and drug addiction, I will say tough love is NOT always what is called for.

Andrew's son isn't a slacker, he has some issues. And it can be darned hard as a parent if solutions aren't readily available or your child is resistant to those solutions.

I'm happy to say all of my kids are doing pretty good these days (NO thanks to their father) but none of them as good as I had hoped by this time. I am still having to parent them in some ways and my ex is zero help, so I hear you, Andrew.

[Ginger1]

I don’t think anyone was calling him a slacker. I t don’t think any of that is tough love. It’s just love. Love is teaching your kids to grow and stand on their own, but knowing you’ll be there if they are really in trouble. Nearly everyone feels anxiety, depression, stress, etc. i think teaching how to manage those while growing as an adult is just plain old love

[Ginger1]

And 28 is no longer a kid. He may be andrews kid. But he is an adult

[LH19]

I don’t think anyone was calling him a slacker. I t don’t think any of that is tough love. It’s just love. Love is teaching your kids to grow and stand on their own, but knowing you’ll be there if they are really in trouble. Nearly everyone feels anxiety, depression, stress, etc. i think teaching how to manage those while growing as an adult is just plain old love

Beautifully written G-money!

[kml]

Teaching how to manage is good. Declining to offer support unless they join a trade school? Not so much.

Some of the advice given would be absolutely wrong for, say, a suicidally depressed kid, a kid on the autism spectrum, a kid in some kind of crisis. My middle son quit a job without lining up another one - I wasn't happy about it at the time. But it was absolutely the right decision, his (as yet) undiagnosed Ehlers-Danlos syndrome was causing him excruciating pain with all the driving he had to do for that job. He was trying to tough it out (my ex's family's philosophy) but it backfired and instead he worked until he simply couldn't do it anymore and had to quit. He did get a new job in short order, got his diagnosis and some medical help (very difficult to find for his rare condition, so proud of him for being able to navigate and advocate for himself). I helped him get a new car, an SUV which he can drive without his hips subluxing. He needed support, both financial and emotional, from me in that transition, not criticism or more pressure than he was already putting on himself.

Yeah, it's awesome that some of us were able to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps - but I also acknowledge the advantages that I had that made that possible. I have good brain chemistry, had good family emotional support, and knew 100% that I could always go back home if needed. I don't suffer from anxiety, depression, or any of the other things that my children have faced. That doesn't make me better or tougher than them, just luckier. I also was a young adult in a time when a part time job at a diner was enough money to pay my rent and bills in a shared house during college- not possible today where we live, or most places in the US.

Andrew - I know he's not easy to talk to, but did he say what it was he didn't like about the job? Was it personal (bad manager or coworker stuff) or the job itself (hours, nature of the work)? I don't know how it is in Canada but here in the US there are lots of jobs available. If it's like that he may not have any trouble getting a new job, but it does seem like a good time to have conversation with him about future plans and goals. Would he like to go back to school of some kind now that he has had a taste of working blue collar jobs? Would he like to just find a different kind of work he enjoys better, or that has better room for advancement?

[LH19]

Teaching how to manage is good. Declining to offer support unless they join a trade school? Not so much.

Who said this?????

[LH19]

I also was a young adult in a time when a part time job at a diner was enough money to pay my rent and bills in a shared house during college

Yean but back then you could see a movie, get a popcorn and a soda for a nickle.

[Ginger1]

I think I’m being misunderstood. I said I wouldn’t just put it out there “bank of dad is open” . I suggested offering money help with a career path.

I’m sorry your kids have been through so many mental issues, K. That must be really difficult for all involved. But I don’t think every kid has issues to this extent. andy has never mentioned that his son does. Some anxiety and depression he might have mentioned, but those are very manageable unless they keep you clinically disabled while being treated.
I mean, nearly every single chart I read has a diagnosis of anxiety and depression on it. But they are all pretty high functioning adults who hold down careers and jobs. It can be done. Andrews son did have a job for long while. Do I think it’s irresponsible to let a job go without having a back up? Yes, I do. Unless it was really that bad of a situation with harassment and bullying, which I pray it wasn’t.

Andrew, I’d there is something truly medically and mentally amiss with your son, I hope he seeks out the help he needs to get on a path with direction and get mentally healthy.

[Traveler]

Yean but back then you could see a movie, get a popcorn and a soda for a nickle.

I get the impression kml is slightly older than me, but quite a few years shy of the age of Nickelodeons (1905-1915). By the 60s, an average ticket cost a full dollar (or about $11.50 when adjusted for inflation), by the 70s twice that!

I do love that to this day there are other opportunities to see films for cheap or free.

[AndrewP]

Andrew, I’d there is something truly medically and mentally amiss with your son, I hope he seeks out the help he needs to get on a path with direction and get mentally healthy.

He has some anxiety and depression but heck, who doesn't these days. He's doing so much better than when he flunked out of university and moved in with me with no prospects and no plans all those years ago.

He's going to be fine. He knows he's loved and that his father is there for him. And I think he's very happy about not having to worry about being unable to see going in and out of the freezer section and having his glasses ice up

He'll figure it out on his own and doesn't need me to fix anything for him. I'm a Dad though, so I care and I worry.

[bttrfly]

Forgive me if I’m a bit dense here, “wish I had some help on this”, sounds like there is more to “this” than you related. Perfectly fine, and I’m not prying, to be clear. I know you are a responsible level headed guy who wouldn’t consider reaching out over minor stuff.

Yeah, there is more. Things I wish I knew how to fix but also know that they are beyond my skills. They are also probably beyond his mother's skills too. It comes down in my mind to the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

Fortunately he is a good kid who has grown a lot in his self awareness in recent years. He'll be fine. It would just perhaps be easier if his support team was unified in their approach. I operate assuming I am doing this alone and hoping I am wrong.

Operate as though you're doing this alone and you will be fine. We cannot fix things for anyone, spouses, exes, kids, not for anyone. If being here has taught us nothing else, we at least have learned that.

All we can do is let our children know we love them and are here for them, and stay out of their way as they find their own path. Sometimes it looks like they're floundering, but they really are on their own personal voyage of discovery.

[DonH]

I know LH can be a snarky A$$.

WTF???????? et to Ginges

I was wondering about this as well because pretty much everyone here knows this is my job.

But pretty much EVERYTHING else Ginger said is exactly correct. You are on fire today Ginger! Some connect all this enabling and shielding children from real life with child abuse. Most certainly dad or mom or family should be there when the really bad stuff happens. The bank of dad should be available if the plant closed unexpectedly and he’s suddenly without a job. It’s not for quitting a perfectly good job for all of todays reasons - it’s hard, the boss doesn’t like me, I don’t like the hours, I should be getting $25 an hour (even though I have no skills) and etc. helping in this case only makes the helper feel better. It hurts the child, it is supposed to help. It just makes the parent feel important, needed, and perhaps fill the need to come to the rescue. The child suffers and remains a child long into adulthood.

For the rest, see Ginger's comments which lay out my thoughts better than I could, including keeping in mind Andrew’s son doesn’t have special needs like some legitimately do. Unfortunately it’s become vogue (or is it woke) to have mental illness these days. It’s become the go to excuse and diminishes the significance of those actually properly diagnosed with such afflictions - rather than self diagnosed or parent diagnosed.

What some parents have done to damage their kids in the name of love should be criminal. Not at all saying this is you Andrew - I’m just talking in general terms. Just might want to hire a new loan officer for the bank of dad. The current guy is too much of a pushover.

[Ginger1]

Friday my D and I stopped at kohl’s for some Amazon returns . She found this $50 Nike sweatshirt she loved. And honestly, I loved it too. I wanted to buy it for her so bad. She wanted me to buy it for her so bad. I told her I would only split the cost . She decided to put it back .

She went to her dads on the weekend and called to tell me she is starting a babysitting business and she made a flyer. I told her she can’t until she does a babysitting course and infant and child cpr. Well, without me even asking for the money, her dad agreed to split that with me. She wants to make her own money. I try to teach her she has to do what it takes and there is no fast way to the finish. Hard work pays off.

I sure am a sucker sometimes and I want to give her everything. It makes me feel good to see her happy. But that is often selfish. Because this world just isn’t going to give her what she wants when she wants it.

I dated 2 guys who stated they are saving to give their children everything and “set them up in adulthood so they don’t have to worry about a thing” nah man. I couldn’t get on board with that. I will give my daughter the best environment to work towards her independence, but I’m not saving all of my money for her not to work hard. I’m setting her so she doesn’t have to struggle like I did. I’m only paying for a small portion of her college. The rest is on her.

Am I hard a$$? Maybe. But what happens if I’m not there to bail her out? It is absolutely imperative to me she can stand on her own.

Maybe you just needed to talk it out Andrew and you know your son is going to be fine and find his way. You and your ex don’t need to be a United front and intervene. He just has to figure it out on his own.

And I agree, the bank of dad should actually be for dad. It is not cheap to live to be old these days. You are going to need to take care of yourself

[AndrewP]

Friday my D and I stopped at kohl’s for some Amazon returns . She found this $50 Nike sweatshirt she loved. And honestly, I loved it too. I wanted to buy it for her so bad. She wanted me to buy it for her so bad. I told her I would only split the cost . She decided to put it back

I'm sorry Ginger - but that is one of the most bizarre false equivalencies that I've encountered. I'm not normally rude and usually I just let things slide by because to be honest, I don't have any interest in negativity. A sweatshirt vs being able to make rent?

Sigh.

I have no expectation that he'll take me up on my offer.

I do remember how my parents helped with the down-payment for this house. We paid them back in a combination of cash and sweat equity. I'm sure that most of us at one point in time or other had assistance from our parents. It's nice knowing that your family has your back. How are the kitchen renovations your Dad is paying for coming along?

Careful casting stones please.

[Ginger1]

It wasn't an equivalent. It was just an example of where I am with her at her age and in the journey of her becoming an adult. That’s all. No more no less and I’m sorry if I offended you . Definitely not my intention and I wouldn’t compare a 14 year old with a 28 year old. I would absolutely assist my daughter as an adult when needed as long as I know she is going in a positive direction. I accept assistance reluctantly from my dad . And I’m 41. There is absolutely no shame in it

Definitely wasn’t casting stones and I made you feel like I was.

[LH19]

I have no expectation that he'll take me up on my offer.

So if you knew he was too proud and wouldn't take you up on it then why did your offer? I think this is more about your rescuer personality and your desire to be needed. I think you know this and that is why Don & Ginger's comments set you off. I was 49 when I got divorced and my dad helped me out. He knew it wasn't my choice and I needed it to keep my family home. If it would have been because I quit my job he would have laughed in my face. The job market is great right now so I am sure he will find a job soon.

[bttrfly]

I can only speak for myself, but it's very important that my son knows, beyond doubt, that he has at least one parent who will not abandon him.

I wouldn't have a house today if my parents hadn't helped me after my divorce. I was absolutely mortified that I had to borrow money from my parents to pay first last and security for my apartment after BD. I was able to pay them back quickly once our marital home sold, but it was humiliating to have to ask, at 50, for their financial help.

Family is the most important thing. It is between each parent and their child to determine the appropriate level of support that kid needs, regardless of that child's age. These are private matters. Armchair quarterbacking isn't helpful, imho.

[Ginger1]

Just for clarification I never ever suggested that we shouldn’t be there for our kids . Never. There will always be a room in my home for my child if she ever needed it as adult.

Andrew I will gladly step out of conversation. You don’t need me in it. You know what’s best for you and your son.

[LH19]

These are private matters. Armchair quarterbacking isn't helpful, imho.

Fair enough BF but I think this site about helping each other learn and grow.

Relationships are private and you seem to enjoy Arm Chair Qbing Traveler when you see fit. As do we all lol.

We all admitted we got some kind of help. We never told Andrew NOT to help his son. We were pointing out possible teachable moments.

[Ginger1]

This whole board is filled with private matters and response to them. Affairs, bedroom matters, every private matter is aired on here. It’s an advice board

But I will always respect not giving input where it isn’t wanted.

[bttrfly]

I am speaking strictly about myself and my situation. seems that there are a million opinions about how I should handle my relationship with my son, but the only one that matters is mine. An aunt told me at my baby shower that of all the women in this world God chose me to be this baby's mother, because I was the best person for the job. I took that to heart and it's sustained me through some pretty dark times.

[bttrfly]

These are private matters. Armchair quarterbacking isn't helpful, imho.

Fair enough BF but I think this site about helping each other learn and grow.

Relationships are private and you seem to enjoy Arm Chair Qbing Traveler when you see fit. As do we all lol.

We all admitted we got some kind of help. We never told Andrew NOT to help his son. We were pointing out possible teachable moments.

I am not going to be armchair quarterbacking him or anyone else here. My time here is coming to a close LH.

[LH19]

These are private matters. Armchair quarterbacking isn't helpful, imho.

Fair enough BF but I think this site about helping each other learn and grow.

Relationships are private and you seem to enjoy Arm Chair Qbing Traveler when you see fit. As do we all lol.

We all admitted we got some kind of help. We never told Andrew NOT to help his son. We were pointing out possible teachable moments.

I am not going to be armchair quarterbacking him or anyone else here. My time here is coming to a close LH.

That is too bad BF you will be missed.

[bttrfly]

These are private matters. Armchair quarterbacking isn't helpful, imho.

Fair enough BF but I think this site about helping each other learn and grow.

Relationships are private and you seem to enjoy Arm Chair Qbing Traveler when you see fit. As do we all lol.

We all admitted we got some kind of help. We never told Andrew NOT to help his son. We were pointing out possible teachable moments.

I am not going to be armchair quarterbacking him or anyone else here. My time here is coming to a close LH.

That is too bad BF you will be missed.

thanks for saying that.

[Ginger1]

I’m sorry if I am the reason you are leaving.

Parenting is always a very touchy subject. When I was OG on these boards under a different name I was parenting a very difficult kid as a new mom with no support. And trust me, EVERYONE had an opinion. I would be really upset sometimes and feelin like a failure as a mother.

And to be honest with you, in retrospect, it actually was like my village here helping a scared new mom trying to figure out the mom thing going through a divorce with no mom or husband herself. When the heat wore off from some of the opinions, I really saw what was said and I was so grateful for it.

Actually when my ex and was marrying his wife, I told him he was not taking our daughter to the wedding. I was so distraught and disgusted. If it wasn’t for the opinions of friends from these boards and the strong urging, my daughter may have not gone . And she would be asking me now why. And I would have regretted that so so so much.

Honestly, while I truly think I was chosen to be my daughters parent, I have always valued the opinions of others who have different perspective. People have helped me see things the way I couldn’t see them on the inside. Maybe about how I some of my everyday tendencies into my child that I should not.

I’m sorry you are leaving as well. And I will reiterate over and over again, I fully believe every parent should be there for their kid and never let them drown. I never in anyway suggested that is right thing to do.


And I am thankful to my armchair QB’s over the years on this board quite honestly. She got to meet a good deal of folks from these boards who helped me along the way. And they all love her. They always felt like a part of the family and vice versa. I will forever be thankful for the help in a trying situation I wasn’t prepared for.

Probably why after all these years I’m still here

[RedDog]

Hi,
I would like to hear peoples experiences using Michele's 2 day private retreats. How do I finds posts on this? I am new to this site and have no idea how to use it. Guidance would be great. Thx.

[Traveler]

Hi,
I would like to hear peoples experiences using Michele's 2 day private retreats. How do I finds posts on this? I am new to this site and have no idea how to use it. Guidance would be great. Thx.

Hi Bema, welcome! First, I would create your own thread, ideally in the Newcomers section. Repeat your request and tell us a bit about yourself. This will get more replies than “hijacking” / using Andrew’s thread. Not that we’re offended, of course! You’re new here.

A few members have gone to those, of course. I’ll search for your thread later today and point you to those experiences, and probably you’ll get other replies sooner.

[kml]

I can only speak for myself, but it's very important that my son knows, beyond doubt, that he has at least one parent who will not abandon him.

Amen, bttrfly. Amen.

I won’t apologize for helping my children, especially when my ex is so unhelpful. (My ex- FIL loaned us the down payment for our first house - I don’t expect my ex to help with any thing like that when the time comes, once he couldn’t even cough up a lousy $200 a month for a year to help out middle with his health insurance).

If I’d been willing to walk away from the kids like my ex, I could have bought a smaller home, would be at least a couple hundred thousand dollars richer and could be retired already. But my kids would be in horrible places, all of them. If me continuing to work and living frugally is what it takes to help my children not end up mired in poverty or debt then that’s what I will do - and I’m happy to do so. And in many cultures this would not be unusual, members of a family pulling together to help each other.

[LH19]

I won’t apologize for helping my children, especially when my ex is so unhelpful.

So nobody asked you to apologize for helping your kids.

If I’d been willing to walk away from the kids like my ex, I could have bought a smaller home, would be at least a couple hundred thousand dollars richer and could be retired already.

K we know your ex is a narcissist and a bad father.

But my kids would be in horrible places, all of them.

Really? Like homeless?

If me continuing to work and living frugally is what it takes to help my children not end up mired in poverty or debt then that’s what I will do - and I’m happy to do so.

So are there boundaries? Or is bank of KML open 24/7 for any amount for any reason?

It boggles my mind how saying one little thing gets so blown out of proportion here.

[RedDog]

Thanks much. I will give it a try. See if I can figure out how to do that!!!!

[AndrewP]

New thread time

I do believe that this is a new record for the least number of posts by the author on a thread.

Plans can break down. You cannot plan the future.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2929700&#Post2929700

[kml]

Putting this here so as not to clutter up Andrew's new thread:

Originally Posted by kml
But my kids would be in horrible places, all of them.
Really? Like homeless?

Yes. At least one definitely homeless, possibly 2 or all 3. Not kidding.