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Posted By: CWarrior I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/28/21 06:59 PM
Long ago, in a galaxy far far away I was a WAS from a bad marriage. More recently, I was an LBS in a life partnership gone wrong. I'm trying to rebuild my life and be pickier about partners!

See: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2922226

Auto Recap--I have a check engine light and my mechanic said I needed an electrical mechanic.

Electrical Mechanic Visit #1 - He claimed he fixed a wiring short causing the light. I asked how he fixed it--did he replace the connector, wiring, or what? He said, "I just fixed the short." What does that mean? I see no wiring or electrical tape changes. The light returned the next day.

Electrical Mechanic Visit #2 - He said now a new code was appearing saying the sensor needed replacing. I said great, so the original code is cleared and there's a new one. He said yes. He said the part was $285. I said hmm.. I'd already replaced it and that part cost $70. He said ones from shops are often "uncalibrated" and installing it is "delicate". It's actually a really simple part requiring no calibration and it's easy to test or replace. I Googled and the OEM part is $120. I said I'd take care of it, but it's great he cleared a code. I asked what the new code was. He wouldn't share the code at first. I said the original code was Pxxx. He said yes, that's the code. Hmm. I may need to find yet another mechanic.

I'm a terrible patient, but I need an honest doctor.
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/28/21 07:19 PM
Honestly I’d go to the dealer at this point. Might cost a little more but they should know what they’re doing. Because they work on the same cars all the time, they know their quirks.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/28/21 07:21 PM
Clearly, I created more work for myself by bargain shopping. My usual mechanic wanted $280 and several days--but always finds the issue. I should've returned there after the $100 mechanic said it was beyond them.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/28/21 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Honestly I’d go to the dealer at this point. Might cost a little more but they should know what they’re doing. Because they work on the same cars all the time, they know their quirks.
Dealer. Yes, that's probably an even better idea.
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/29/21 02:22 PM
CWarrior,

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I’m mid-date. I went in for a kiss early on and she turned it down and keeps putting space between us. After preparing me a 4-course meal and writing me longer poem. I’m confused again.
I realize the board recommends posting before speaking/acting, but mid-date??? That's a bit extreme! Lol

Romantic poem but turning down kisses after several dates? I concur with the others...move on.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/29/21 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by BL42
CWarrior,

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I’m mid-date. I went in for a kiss early on and she turned it down and keeps putting space between us. After preparing me a 4-course meal and writing me longer poem. I’m confused again.
I realize the board recommends posting before speaking/acting, but mid-date??? That's a bit extreme! Lol

Romantic poem but turning down kisses after several dates? I concur with the others...move on.
in a case like this, I think it was fine to signal for help mid-date.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 03:34 PM
Since Thursday, Ms. Sunshine's sent two messages. The first, lamenting our adventures are cut short. The second, beyond the "manly" comment she apologized for, she doesn't get why it's over. It seems our friendly get-togethers will also be more limited. smirk

I sent more on why we're incompatible--mixed messages, distance/pursuer, turned off by my "mushy" side, etc.. no blaming.. just personal preferences, and she's a good person. She responded in-depth--she accepts some rough edges she's working on. I'm her first date 1.5yrs after a 10yr sexless marriage. She thinks some of this is miscommunication. She wants another shot.

---

Nobody has ever written poetry like this about me or cooked me a 4-course meal. Those score points. She also is a high wage-earner (three cars, paid-off home) and good parent.

re: Writing a poem. Is it crazy? Well, she's known me for a year, and our first meeting was memorable. I met 5-6 people that day and she's the only one I remember. We exchanged digits. Our first "non-date" kayaking was idyllic. Her poem was about feeling alive again--not her undying love for me. She writes. She paints. A way to process? She shared it a few dates later.

Could it be love-bombing and something darker comes next? It's possible. I read her as more anxious. She has trouble being alone. She broke up with a fiance and 2 boyfriends when they got too busy for together time.

Quote
*Is this someone who consistently makes you feel good after you spend time with her?
It depends on what accounting method I choose! 1 date ended with me hurt and confused. 1 date ended with me feeling meh smirk. 2 non-dates were amazing days. Our weekly hangouts were good.

Quote
*Is this someone with whom you can feel safe/trust enough to be truly emotionally intimate?
I've shared more with her than anyone. This is partly because we have a common past and partly because I'm trying to be more emotionally open. I have multiple friends who know me better than my XW did.

Quote
*Do you want to be in a relationship with someone this controlling before you've even defined what it is you're doing together?
After breakfast and some kayaking training (my ideas) she asked where I wanted to go. "Home is fine." She says she rarely goes to this area and would like lunch. I say okay. I felt trapped because I really wanted to go home--but isn't that half my fault for not asserting myself? She asks if I prefer city A or B. I say city A--never been there. She says she just double-checked and it's too far, let's go to city B. I say okay. Time would be tight if we went to City A. For lunch we're sharing an entree and a side. She asks if I like crab cakes. "I don't like seafood, but I'd be open to trying them." "Are you allergic?" "No." She orders the crab cakes. Never had someone order us seafood when I say I don't like seafood. I pick a salad. She's allergic to walnuts. I pick a different salad. It turns out I love crab cakes. I'm glad she ordered them. Was she "controlling" or is sharing control a skill to improve at?

It's funny how many ways you can frame an event. I'm obviously talking myself into another go.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
It's funny how many ways you can frame an event. I'm obviously talking myself into another go.
My ex sister-in-law had a favourite phrase - "When I want your opinion I'll give it to you". Quite the piece of work. Lots of drama and everything was always all about her.

Going to be blunt here. From what I've read, "You" don't matter to her nor do your wants or needs. Having dated a very controlling woman last year I see the same strategies in play here. Wanting "equality" but only with them being the equal one. Seeing what they can get away with - offering carrot and then whacking you with the stick. If you take the hit then it becomes the normal.
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 04:31 PM
Quote
For lunch we're sharing an entree and a side. She asks if I like crab cakes. "I don't like seafood, but I'd be open to trying them." "Are you allergic?" "No." She orders the crab cakes. Never had someone order us seafood when I say I don't like seafood

Well - there's two parts to this. One is you saying you'd be open to trying them - that kinda lets her off the hook for ordering them, no? On the other hand, if someone said that to ME, I'd be saying "oh no, that's ok, let's order something else" because I would be concerned that you might not like the crab cakes if you don't like seafood, and I'd want you to enjoy your meal too. Sounds like SHE wanted crab cakes and you gave her the opening to do the selfish thing, which she took and ran with.

Look, we're all Monday morning quarterbacking here, but this interaction suggests to me that you're too accommodating and she might be the kind of person to take advantage of that. If you do see her again, PLEASE DON'T SLEEP WITH HER as your ability to think rationally will be clouded by that. She also might sleep with you just to "prove" that she's interested then back off again.

Also - I wouldn't have gone into all that detail about why you were dropping her, because that just gives her an opportunity to argue it with you and make excuses. The correct thing to do is just say "I don't think we're really a match". That doesn't lay blame at anyone's doorstep, and it's the honest truth.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 05:06 PM
@kml, yes, these interactions have highlighted I'm not as direct and assertive as I'd like to be. Even she says I "shy away" from uncomfortable topics. I want to get better at that. (:

After the "bad date", I was confused and made that poor approximation of LH's, "Just friends doesn't work for me" argument which didn't work because it wasn't true for me. When she asked me in the car on the way there "Why did you want to talk about that before meeting me--were you thinking of canceling?" I got uncomfortable and said "I hadn't thought that far." When she asked in the car on the way back, "Is everything okay?" I said I was just watching the scenery.

Should I have canceled? Could've gone either way. I do want to be more authentic. I wish on the way there I'd answered, "I had second thoughts about today. I still feel confused about last night. I'm not ready to talk about it, but I wanted to enjoy a day on the water with you." I wish on the way back I said, "I'm still confused about last night. It's pretty out there, though."

I'm not doing any favors to me or others dropping authenticity to keep the peace.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 05:13 PM
@Andrew, I'd love to hear your experiences, if you get time to write about them.

Well, things to do! If I do dip my toe back in, no sexy times for a while.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 05:37 PM
No, no, no, no, no....a THOUSAND times NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

CW, come on, man. I agree with kml's assessment that your dislike of seafood but giving her the out kind of muddies that particular exchange a bit, because you gave her the opening to do whatever she d@mn well pleased and she did. Now, let's get this straight, crab cakes are DELICIOUS, so I'm glad you had that opportunity to try them and you liked them, but I'm with kml in that if I suggested something and the other person said they don't like then I would totally offer up another choice or ask them what they think looks/sounds good.

You have gotten some great comments and the fact that Andrew, who got MUCH advice and some not-so-kind 2x4s over his whole thing with S, is saying hey man, hold up ought to really make you take a big step back and reevaluate. You say you want to be authentic, but if you are always going along to get along, I fail to see how that is authentic. Why the rush with this particular woman. You have said you don't think you are a match and now she pushes so you rethink that and are backing off of it why? You said you used one of LH's arguments with her but again, to me, that makes me wonder where YOUR authenticity is if you used an argument that someone else fed you. (Don't get me wrong, I actually agreed with what LH told you, but it was HIS words, not yours.)

It is ok to stick to your guns and hold out for what you want and someone you think is a good match. Just because this woman was already in your social circle doesn't mean that you HAVE to make it work. It seems clear to me that she is very much a woman who will take advantage of every opportunity that you hand her and use it for her own benefit. You said you were through, you weren't a match and she's still reaching out. That just seems odd to me.

Go back and read some of Andrew's exchanges with S because some of what you are describing here is reminding me of that situation. She seems to be fairly aggressive (for lack of a better word) when she doesn't get her way but then backs off when you seem to come around to her way of thinking. That is textbook manipulation!

What is it about this specific woman that is making you even second guess your assertion that you are finished with her? If you had already slept with her, I would be mighty tempted to think that was what was pulling you back in, but you haven't, so I don't get it.

Seriously, man, she's already shown you her true personality....RUN!
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn70
It is ok to stick to your guns and hold out for what you want and someone you think is a good match. Just because this woman was already in your social circle doesn't mean that you HAVE to make it work.
And actually S was in my social circle as well. As I learned, just because you know someone socially doesn't mean that you know what type of person they are.

I had thought that S was big hearted, somewhat eclectic, creative and hard-working. An "every-Mom" to all the kids around. The reality was very very different - even the Mom part. Her kids looked after her more than the other way around and she had no issues with her daughter's boyfriend (at 16 or 17) moving in and doing the horizontal tango. I could go on and on - but yeah - I was very wrong and kept on trying to see her as the person I wanted her to be rather than the one she was. We only got engaged and she moved in because she pushed me for it - and I caved.

It would have been so much better if I had run as soon as I saw how she lived and took care of her family. I didn't and people got hurt.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
@Andrew, I'd love to hear your experiences, if you get time to write about them.

Well, things to do! If I do dip my toe back in, no sexy times for a while.
he has written about them. at length. go look at his past threads. don't make him re-live it all.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn70
You say you want to be authentic, but if you are always going along to get along, I fail to see how that is authentic.

My son pointed out that I didn't give a certain person in my life a chance to be more than friends ... this ^^^^ is a big reason why. Once I realized that this was a significant part of his personality, I also realized that I can't really trust someone like that.

Hey, it's a viewpoint.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 06:53 PM
@Butterfly, I respect that. My inauthenticity in the car jumped out because it's not how I aspire to behave. "Don't make rash decisions" doesn't mean "Pretend everything is fine when it's not fine." I'll have to find a good Audiobook on "Authenticity" to listen to on my road trip this weekend. I have flaws but, like you, am committed to learning and self-improvement. (:
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 07:05 PM
@Dawn, I guess a few things changed: (1) Empathy - she really wants us to work. (2) Communication - she impressed me with how she validated my concerns and agreed with some of them without shutting down or getting offended (or, like my XGF, showing up crying at my house or stealing a plant). (3) I've made so many mistakes myself when it comes to intentions, authenticity, assertiveness, etc. I wonder if my best self shows up if that would make our interactions much easier. (4) She made it clear the close friendship is over for a while if we're broken up because she'd need space.

I have not decided. Thanks for helping to clarify my thoughts.
Posted By: DonH Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Nobody has ever written poetry like this about me or cooked me a 4-course meal. Those score points. She also is a high wage-earner (three cars, paid-off home) and good parent

Oh no and here we go again! The others are giving you good comments and I don't want to be overly harsh here. You are being very honest and putting it all out for us to see, which takes guts. So you want to do better, I know you do. I just don't get what you are doing most of the time. It's like you are just so confused about all of this dating stuff. You seem to really struggle to make a decision and stick with it - to know what you want, have confidence and make a decision. Why on earth would you let her talk you into something. Look, I think the biggest take home here is this: R's are really hard. They take work. Over time life throws a whole lot at a couple and they need to respond, from illness and children to work, friends, affairs, arguments, disagreements and compromise. AN R TAKES A LOT OF WORK. And that's the case when both people are up to it. It darn well should not be this much work and this much drama right out of the box. These are things that maybe should come up down the road, but in the first couple dates? The early months if not years should be the easy part. You're dealing with crazy right away. It's only going to get worse - ask Andrew. She should be putting on her best performance now and she's not. What you see is what you get - believe what she is showing you! This is who she is. She clearly wants things her way and doesn't care much about what you want. It's all about her. And if that's not bad enough, what she wants (or what she thinks she wants) changes on a whim daily. This is not a close call. As Dawn very clearly states - no no no no no nooooooooooooooo. You made a decision. It was the right decision in many minds. Now stick with it!

Also, while it's great if she has accomplished things in other aspects of her life - like finance and work. There is something to be said about that. The thing is, I can't tell you how many people who are great at those things along with others totally stink at Rs. This could very well be the case with your sunshine lady.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
It would have been so much better if I had run as soon as I saw how she lived and took care of her family. I didn't and people got hurt.

And if only more people here would have tried to tell you that you should run and that...oh wait a minute...never mind. crazy
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 08:34 PM
Quote
Nobody has ever written poetry like this about me or cooked me a 4-course meal. Those score points. She also is a high wage-earner (three cars, paid-off home) and good parent

The poetry - that's more of a red flag than a positive to me (no offense to poetry lovers out there). Just seems like a potential marker for somebody with a juvenile approach to romance. (Nothing wrong with poetry, like I said, but I'd be pretty embarrassed to show a poem to somebody I'd just started seeing at this early stage lest I seem like I'm coming on too strong). Also - poem and 4 course meal but AVOIDING YOUR KISS? Don't leave out the crazy part at the end.

Also - you mentioned she'd broken up with a fiance because he didn't have enough time for her. I thought she hadn't dated in ten years? Where did she fit the fiance in? And is she going to similarly resent the time you spend with your kids and on your athletic pursuits. Somebody tells me they broke an engagement because their partner didn't spend enough time with them and it makes me think "clingy" person who doesn't have a life of their own.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 08:57 PM
Kml - boyfriend high school to college, fiancé immediately after at her first job, a gap (nothing serious) focused on career, then married 10yrs, ex-fiancé as FWB, then single for a year.

The boyfriend she left because he stopped spending time with her and was always out playing pool.
The fiancé she left because he got busy working on his doctorate.

Yes, clingy/anxious is probably accurate. I wish I’d asked more! She does have a rich social life, though. She leads multiple clubs and is a dance teacher. She’s friendly but quieter among others.

The STBXH was different. She married after an accidental pregnancy and it was a sexless (3x in 10yrs) marriage by his choice and he behaved badly (emotional/verbal) to the son. That’s longer than I’d hang in!
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 09:14 PM
There's no way I could have hung in for ten years as a young person with sex only 3 times? And then, except for the fling with the ex-fiance, basically no sex since? I'd take that as a warning that HER sex drive may not be all you would like either. (Granted, she was raising a kid, but still. )
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 09:26 PM
I think I’m converging on that I want to go on more dates, not to woo her, but to learn more about whether she’s clingy, selfish, etc. or maybe these hunches are wrong. No sexy time. I’m setting a boundary at making out assuming she ever kisses me. wink

Originally Posted by Don
It darn well should not be this much work and this much drama right out of the box
I don’t know how easy relationships should be out of the box. We all have different paces and love languages. I’d hate to discard someone for one of those differences because they’re easy to accommodate once you understand them. Most here were rooting for Ms TallChemist despite no kiss within 5 dates. I have a friend who dropped a guy after 6 dates and sleeping together because she paid for two dates and he didn’t say “Thank you.” Friends pointed out other ways he’d expressed gratitude. I think we’re sometimes too quick to discard people. I know some good people who seem permanently single, others who wind up with a-holes, others who get a good one. I don’t know that matching is easy. I don’t know if an easy start means longevity.

I’m seeing her ability to validate and handle conflict. If she’s too selfish, too clingy, then NEXT.
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
It's funny how many ways you can frame an event. I'm obviously talking myself into another go.
I think objectively you know how it's going to go, but emotionally you're hoping it won't.

Originally Posted by kml
If you do see her again, PLEASE DON'T SLEEP WITH HER as your ability to think rationally will be clouded by that. She also might sleep with you just to "prove" that she's interested then back off again.
She won't even kiss him after several dates despite the poem and romantic overtures, and all of a sudden she wants to have sex? I don't see it.

Originally Posted by DonH
She should be putting on her best performance now and she's not.
Maybe she is! Think about that...
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/30/21 11:03 PM
Look who's here with the 2x4's!

CW, what the heck?! Why are you so attracted to crazy drama?! This mirrors your relationship with you ex GF. AN emotionally volatile and emotionally manipulative woman! This should be easy, CW. You have barely started "seeing" this woman and she is all over the board playing with you. You are an absolute sucker for it.

CW. Your home and car and things that need to be done are chaos. (and yes, props to working on all of that) Your choices in women. chaos.

Why? I mean, I am sure it goes back to your childhood. But you need to be able to recognize this before you get into another relationship like you had with your ex girlfriend. It reeks of the same dynamic

You need to run and run fast. And you could probably use an extended break where you just get your life in order. and dig deep into why you want chose such emotionally manipulative women and are drawn to drama.

A poem and a meal and does not outweigh emotionally manipulative.

And she left a fiance because he was working on his doctorate? Really?
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/31/21 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by Ginger1
You need to run and run fast. And you could probably use an extended break where you just get your life in order. and dig deep into why you want chose such emotionally manipulative women and are drawn to drama.

PREACH IT, Sister G! Every last little bit of this!!!!!!
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/31/21 12:50 AM
Dude, you can hang out with your social circle and OBSERVE HER BEHAVIOR.

BS on the love languages, etc on the front end. Any time I've had this much struggle with anything on the front end, in the long run it always proved to be a bad fit.

You've gone on 4 dates. There should not be this much talking, confusion, drama, saying one thing and doing another. THIS IS THE HONEYMOON PHASE!!!

IT'S ONLY GOING TO GET EXPONENTIALLY MORE OF THIS FROM HERE.

Act accordingly.
I just started following your thread. How can I help?
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/31/21 07:26 PM
Hey, Ready2Change! Back at you. Where is your thread hiding? (:

Today, life is looking better. Yesterday I moved 162 gallons of "stuff" from my living room into boxes and then the cleaners came through--I'd be okay having guests over. I think Ms BunnyBoiler's comment that it doesn't look like a "home" still stands. My bookshelf and display case are crammed full of things that don't matter to me--but I no longer look like a hoarder wannabe.

My daughter is facing severe challenges with two of her classes. I was up until 2am helping her, and spent a couple of hours thinking on it and sending one of her teachers an e-mail. She'd already tried talking to the teacher and only received words of encouragement instead of accommodations. Next step is the department chair, then the guidance counselor.

Yes, I talked to Ms BunnyBoiler II and will be seeing her Wednesday and maybe Thursday.
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/31/21 07:30 PM
Does your daughter have an IEP?
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/31/21 07:53 PM
kml, that's the next step. It seems to require a diagnosis that she requires special education, though. What happened is one of her teachers last year taught nothing but handed out As, and she wasn't self-motivated enough to learn when she didn't have to. Now she's a year behind in a class she doesn't love and getting Ds even when she studies.
Posted By: OwnIt Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 08/31/21 08:54 PM
CW, the federal law does not require a diagnosis, though in practice the school districts seem to require one before they will act. You may need to consult an attorney who specializes in the area of school disability issues and ask about a potential Child Find violation, if applicable, involving your daughter.

"Child-find is the term used to describe the legal duty imposed by IDEA 2004 on public school districts to “find” children who may have a disability and be in need of special education services. Under the law, schools have an affirmative duty to identify, locate, and evaluate students who they suspect may have a disability, in order to evaluate them for potential eligibility for special education services (see IDEA 2004, 20 U.S.C. § 1412(a)(3) and 34 C.F.R. § 300.111). It is not enough for schools to wait until parents ask about or request a special education evaluation based on suspicion that their child may have a disability and struggling in school as a result. Schools must maintain a system of notices, outreach efforts, staff training, and referral processes designed to ascertain when there are reasonable grounds to suspect disability and the potential need for special education services."
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 03:38 PM
My D's school stuff mellowed out. Teacher #1 responded and offered a "second chance" on any quiz as long as my D attends office hours, which should be enough for her to catch up. Teacher #2 pushed his big test out two days and I helped my D find a more engaging way to study 150pgs in 2 days than reading her book straight-through. She's reading a summary, taking quizzes, and then reviewing what she's weak on instead. Many hours spent but also bonding time and scored some parenting points. wink

The date--meh. She gave me two apparent openings to kiss--I didn't bite, rejected enough. Then she said, "You think I don't want to kiss you?" A little while later we kissed the tiniest, half-second peck. We enjoyed the moonlight, cuddled, danced, talked, a few more pecks she ended after half a second. She said I was the first guy she'd dated with a beard and she wasn't used to it.

I left feeling, "waste of an evening"?! Something is not clicking for me. I loved the bit outside. I loved the bit dancing. But sitting on a couch talking and snuggling felt like a waste of time. I guess I enjoy more engagement even on quiet nights--walking, watching a documentary or interesting film, dancing, cycling, strategic games, or making out and sex (yex xgf, you did something right!). Sitting still and doing nothing (cuddling with light chat) is extremely hard for me. A learning experience I guess!
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
She gave me two apparent openings to kiss--I didn't bite, rejected enough.
Again CW you need to learn to read the signs and go for it when she is open to it.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Then she said, "You think I don't want to kiss you?"
Your response should be a playful "why don't you come over her and prove it"
Originally Posted by CWarrior
A little while later we kissed the tiniest, half-second peck. We enjoyed the moonlight, cuddled, danced, talked, a few more pecks she ended after half a second.
What was your reaction to her ending the kiss? Did you act butt hurt?
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Something is not clicking for me.
A severe case of blue balls?
Originally Posted by CWarrior
But sitting on a couch talking and snuggling felt like a waste of time.

So my guess is that if you are feeling this way you are giving off a really bad vibe which she is picking up on. I am not going to sit here and listen to you babble if you won't have sex with me.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Sitting still and doing nothing (cuddling with light chat) is extremely hard for me.
This is why you are struggling and getting friend zone so much. That's how you make a woman feel safe and comfortable.
You need to tighten up your game my friend.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 04:56 PM
I have a different perspective. I think the entire evening was a waste of time because she's a game playing drama queen and deep down you know that, which is why you didn't go in for the kiss the two times she offered.

Move. On.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 05:17 PM
i'm sorry CW I hope I didn't sound too harsh, I just don't want you to waste precious time, especially when you've made some progress on the things that really can change your day to day life for the better.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 06:46 PM
LH, I would've preferred more physicality--a good kiss--so I'm curious about your thoughts!

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by CWarrior
She gave me two apparent openings to kiss--I didn't bite, rejected enough.
Again CW you need to learn to read the signs and go for it when she is open to it.
I get watching for her signals would maximize my chances for a good kiss. What about my feelings? I assume you only kiss when you feel it, and rejection tends to reduce feelings.

Originally Posted by LH
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Then she said, "You think I don't want to kiss you?"
Your response should be a playful "why don't you come over her and prove it"
I said, "I need to warm up a bit first." After some time under the moonlight and listening to Bryan Adams I felt like a kiss. I asked first--never done that before--because it's been weird.

Originally Posted by LH
Originally Posted by CWarrior
A little while later we kissed the tiniest, half-second peck. We enjoyed the moonlight, cuddled, danced, talked, a few more pecks she ended after half a second.
What was your reaction to her ending the kiss? Did you act butt hurt?
No, I didn't act butt-hurt that 1st kiss, I was surprised she kissed at all. I guess she noticed because she repeated, "You actually thought I didn't want to kiss you." I think I said, "You mentioned being new to beards." Just before our date she texted me that beard I'm the first person she's dated with a beard--she'd always instantly nexted any dating profiles with one and was still warming up to it. Two hours later she's been fully laying down, head in my lap for a half hour while I stroke her hair and arms--asking about my sleeping habits, mentioning she has a naughty side. It was getting late and I said I had to needed to go--that time when I kissed and she more bluntly cut it off at 1/2 second I probably did look "butt-hurt". Then, 3min later, she pulled me in and gave me like 4-6 1-second kisses in a row. I didn't enjoy it because it felt weird after the micro-rejection.

Originally Posted by LH
Originally Posted by CWarrior
But sitting on a couch talking and snuggling felt like a waste of time.
So my guess is that if you are feeling this way you are giving off a really bad vibe which she is picking up on. I am not going to sit here and listen to you babble if you won't have sex with me.
I feel impotent after so many rejections. Yes, I want one passionate kiss OR drop the whole romantic charade and let's return to cycling/hiking/kayaking/road-tripping. But that wasn't an option because she said her feelings for me would make that hard.

I think I need to stop doing activities I won't enjoy. Tonight's date is listening to music under a full moon at a winery. Sounds romantic, but 3 others going. I should cancel because I wouldn't enjoy that unless there's some romance and chemistry and that time could be better spent preparing for my road trip with a friend this weekend which will be epic. (:
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Butterfly
I have a different perspective. I think the entire evening was a waste of time because she's a game playing drama queen and deep down you know that, which is why you didn't go in for the kiss the two times she offered.
I concur. Whatever I'm doing "right" or "wrong"--whether I'm the more confusing one or she is--I'm not enjoying the dates. That's enough to discontinue.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 07:01 PM
As usual, bttrfly nails exactly what I was thinking. Dude, I'll be just as direct as bttrfly was, this chick is just not that into you and she's a game playing drama queen. I find myself again confused, though, after your responses to what LH said. She's laying in your lap, you're stroking her arms and hair, she's asking about sleeping patterns and saying she has a naughty side and you say I need to go? Then you feel rejected because she gave you little pecks instead of a romantic, deep kiss. Listen, I've been over this woman for awhile so I'm not sure why you keep going back for more, but that is certainly your choice. I'm not going to defend her actions, but there is the possibility that she feels every bit as rejected as you do and therefore is not terribly interested in deep passionate kisses until she gets a better handle on where you are. Now, having said that, I think you should run far and fast, but that is me. Here's where my confusion comes in, though. I totally agree with LH that the quiet evening slow-paced chat is exactly how you make this woman feel safe and comfortable, if that is your intention. Just because you prefer more activity doesn't mean that works for her. You seemed pretty set on being finished, then she basically talked you into another chance, and now you still don't seem super into it and now you have yet another date scheduled for tonight? WHY? You are already going in saying you won't enjoy the ALREADY PLANNED DATE unless there's some romance and clearly you are not on the same page with each other concerning said romance. You felt like last night was a waste of time, but you don't feel like the date you are already saying you won't like is a waste of time? I just don't get it.

It is ok to NOT want to date someone. All of this seems super forced to me. Like you are trying to make this woman fit into your world or your scheme just because she showed some sort of attention. The more things like this you post, the more I see shades of some of Andrew's adventures. Listen, I love Andrew and think he's a great guy and I feel like you are similar to him in many ways, but as I said to him many times, hold out for the one who sees YOUR WORTH rather than assuming their worth to you. You have SO much to offer....SO MUCH! Why waste any more time on this drama queen who is manipulative? You said she's already said "her feelings" wouldn't allow you to go back to your active friendship, so dude, LISTEN TO HER! She's not the only adventure partner out there for you and she's not the only woman you can date either. In the immortal words of Elsa from Frozen.....LET IT GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn70
As usual, bttrfly nails exactly what I was thinking. Dude, I'll be just as direct as bttrfly was, this chick is just not that into you and she's a game playing drama queen.
I am not so sure she is playing a game. I think she likes him but he keeps turning her off.
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I find myself again confused, though, after your responses to what LH said. She's laying in your lap, you're stroking her arms and hair, she's asking about sleeping patterns and saying she has a naughty side and you say I need to go?

Exactly! It's like WTF??? How about saying "I would love to see your naughty side.
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Then you feel rejected because she gave you little pecks instead of a romantic, deep kiss.
Exactly???
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Listen, I've been over this woman for awhile so I'm not sure why you keep going back for more, but that is certainly your choice.

As the Fonze use to say "exact demundo"
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I'm not going to defend her actions, but there is the possibility that she feels every bit as rejected as you do and therefore is not terribly interested in deep passionate kisses until she gets a better handle on where you are.
Sing it sister!
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Now, having said that, I think you should run far and fast, but that is me.
I think they should both run in opposite directions.
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Here's where my confusion comes in, though. I totally agree with LH that the quiet evening slow-paced chat is exactly how you make this woman feel safe and comfortable, if that is your intention.
It has to be or why else would you be there?
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Just because you prefer more activity doesn't mean that works for her. You seemed pretty set on being finished, then she basically talked you into another chance, and now you still don't seem super into it and now you have yet another date scheduled for tonight? WHY?
It's like WTF????
Originally Posted by Dawn70
You are already going in saying you won't enjoy the ALREADY PLANNED DATE unless there's some romance and clearly you are not on the same page with each other concerning said romance. You felt like last night was a waste of time, but you don't feel like the date you are already saying you won't like is a waste of time? I just don't get it.
That makes two of us.
Originally Posted by Dawn70
It is ok to NOT want to date someone. All of this seems super forced to me. Like you are trying to make this woman fit into your world or your scheme just because she showed some sort of attention. The more things like this you post, the more I see shades of some of Andrew's adventures.

I think Andy P has more game.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
But sitting on a couch talking and snuggling felt like a waste of time. I guess I enjoy more engagement even on quiet nights--walking, watching a documentary or interesting film, dancing, cycling, strategic games, or making out and sex (yex xgf, you did something right!). Sitting still and doing nothing (cuddling with light chat) is extremely hard for me. A learning experience I guess!
I can sympathize. A lot of people enjoy being couch potatoes and just sitting there watching TV. With effort I can manage to sit through a movie on the couch, but it does take an effort.

Some people, that's "all" they want to do and that's their idea of quality time to spend together. But not me and it seems not you either. And no - I don't want to date you CWarrior - our beards would get tangled in the winter-time for one thing crazy

The two women I dated both were bothered that while I am a big cuddly guy, I'm not a sit on the couch kind of guy. In fact when my ex-wife stripped much of the furniture out of the house I never bothered replacing the couch but put an old futon in the living room with a blanket over it. I have a couch now, but only because the first woman I dated insisted on there being a couch and her daughter gave me one they had as surplus.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
As usual, bttrfly nails exactly what I was thinking. Dude, I'll be just as direct as bttrfly was, this chick is just not that into you and she's a game playing drama queen.
I am not so sure she is playing a game. I think she likes him but he keeps turning her off.

Sorry LH, I disagree. She likes the chase. She likes being in control. Her naughty side? May be full dom gear. Unless CW's into being a sub ... he needs to bail. The fact that he's got so many mixed feelings? He needs to bail. Way too early in the game for this level of BS. He's not enjoying himself. He is always second guessing himself, because of her previous actions.

Is it worth this?

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I find myself again confused, though, after your responses to what LH said. She's laying in your lap, you're stroking her arms and hair, she's asking about sleeping patterns and saying she has a naughty side and you say I need to go?

Exactly! It's like WTF??? How about saying "I would love to see your naughty side.

I completely understand why CW said he needs to go. He doesn't feel emotionally safe with her because of the stuff that's gone on before.

One more reason to stop this madness now. That's not going to change without some serious work. Too early in the dating game with her for that. This sitch is now in my mind nothing more than a distraction from him getting his life in order and finding someone more compatible. She likes more mellow dates than he does. That's a fundamental incompatibility long term that isn't going to change regardless of whether or not I'm wrong about her game playing.
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Then you feel rejected because she gave you little pecks instead of a romantic, deep kiss.
Exactly???

I feel like the fundamental incompatibilities continue here.
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Listen, I've been over this woman for awhile so I'm not sure why you keep going back for more, but that is certainly your choice.

As the Fonze use to say "exact demundo"

Yup
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I'm not going to defend her actions, but there is the possibility that she feels every bit as rejected as you do and therefore is not terribly interested in deep passionate kisses until she gets a better handle on where you are.
Sing it sister!

Maybe but remember she put HIS hands on HER @$$ and then left him with the Blues ...
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Now, having said that, I think you should run far and fast, but that is me.
I think they should both run in opposite directions.

LH and I in agreement? Has the world tilted on its axis???? smoochies to you LH :*
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Here's where my confusion comes in, though. I totally agree with LH that the quiet evening slow-paced chat is exactly how you make this woman feel safe and comfortable, if that is your intention.
It has to be or why else would you be there?
He has a hard time saying no and maintaining boundaries are an issue is my guess.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Just because you prefer more activity doesn't mean that works for her. You seemed pretty set on being finished, then she basically talked you into another chance, and now you still don't seem super into it and now you have yet another date scheduled for tonight? WHY?
It's like WTF????
maintaining boundaries is something I think you may want to look at CW.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
You are already going in saying you won't enjoy the ALREADY PLANNED DATE unless there's some romance and clearly you are not on the same page with each other concerning said romance. You felt like last night was a waste of time, but you don't feel like the date you are already saying you won't like is a waste of time? I just don't get it.
That makes two of us.

He's just a guy who can't say no.
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Dawn70
It is ok to NOT want to date someone. All of this seems super forced to me. Like you are trying to make this woman fit into your world or your scheme just because she showed some sort of attention. The more things like this you post, the more I see shades of some of Andrew's adventures.

I think Andy P has more game.
Andy P may have more game, but they both struggle with the boundary issue. I think S kicked the crap out of Andrew on that and he's much more aware of that now. One good thing Andrew, from what you've gone through with S.

"Always look on the bright side of life (cue the whistling) ..."
Originally Posted by LH19
You need to tighten up your game my friend.
CW, I agree. Don't make this complicated.


A woman can go from a 6 to a 9 by putting on makeup and wearing the right clothing. Most men are attracted to the visual.

For us men, it is about our behavior and the how we use our words. Change up your behavior and the way you speak with woman and you will be seen as more attractive.


Personally, when I was single, I made the first kiss something for the woman to remember. Any attempt by her to give me a "peck" would get a playful rejection. I knew what I wanted and wouldn't settle for less.

If I ask my lady tonight if she remembers our first kiss, she will describe it in crazy detail. It was over 11 years ago. Guess who starts getting turned on by my question....
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
I completely understand why CW said he needs to go. He doesn't feel emotionally safe with her because of the stuff that's gone on before.

One more reason to stop this madness now. That's not going to change without some serious work. Too early in the dating game with her for that. This sitch is now in my mind nothing more than a distraction from him getting his life in order and finding someone more compatible. She likes more mellow dates than he does. That's a fundamental incompatibility long term that isn't going to change regardless of whether or not I'm wrong about her game playing.

What I also meant to say here is this: the problem with this woman is that things ALWAYS have to be her way. Imagine 6 months down the road, CW decides he's had one night too many of the mellow dates and wants them to try something more active. My guess is she will consider it for a nano second then quickly reject it in favor of HER wants ... he will cave. This will continue until it becomes so unbearable he runs.

Cut your losses now, while you haven't invested too much into what is seeming more and more like a losing proposition.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/02/21 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Originally Posted by bttrfly
I completely understand why CW said he needs to go. He doesn't feel emotionally safe with her because of the stuff that's gone on before.

One more reason to stop this madness now. That's not going to change without some serious work. Too early in the dating game with her for that. This sitch is now in my mind nothing more than a distraction from him getting his life in order and finding someone more compatible. She likes more mellow dates than he does. That's a fundamental incompatibility long term that isn't going to change regardless of whether or not I'm wrong about her game playing.

What I also meant to say here is this: the problem with this woman is that things ALWAYS have to be her way. Imagine 6 months down the road, CW decides he's had one night too many of the mellow dates and wants them to try something more active. My guess is she will consider it for a nano second then quickly reject it in favor of HER wants ... he will cave. This will continue until it becomes so unbearable he runs.

Cut your losses now, while you haven't invested too much into what is seeming more and more like a losing proposition.

I completely agree with you here, bttrfly. I was playing devil’s advocate and not doing it very well. I understand he doesn’t feel safe and said he needed to go but the point I wanted to make and clearly missed was that if he WERE interested in actually making something happen, that exchange was one of the many examples LH continually points out where CW didn’t pick up or act on a blatant hint. I agree about her always wanting to have things her way and likely, even if CW had acted, she would’ve pulled back. These are the things that make me say she’s a game player, LH. I get what you’re saying about her not feeling safe or whatever but I think it is more surface level than that because I think she’s shown she’s pretty manipulative. And as many of us have pointed out continuously, CW, these early dates should be easy because everyone should be putting their best foot forward. Is she doing that? Only you can decide it based on what I am reading, I would say a big fat NO.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 12:57 AM
Dawn you said it quite plainly. I don't think he's missing the cues. I think he's so turned off by her previous behavior that he's being deliberately obtuse about it - and who could blame him???

I go on the assumption that this IS her best foot forward, so RUN in the opposite direction!
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 01:27 AM
I think you two read me very well. I’m going ahead with today’s group activity where she’ll introduce me as a friend despite it being a waste of time because I committed to it. Tonight as friend should be easier. Then, I have the weekend and wonderful solitude besides meeting a friend who’s easy and fun.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Then, I have the weekend and wonderful solitude besides meeting a friend who’s easy and fun.
I've bolded the parts which leapt out at me. Honey, I don't want a friend of mine to long for wonderful solitude 6 dates into a relationship. Are you listening to this part of you? If you were really into her you would be longing for more time together to get to know each other, or just be together ...

Easy and fun is the goal my friend.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 04:11 PM
I was running late to carpool for her event. I texted asking if I should abort. "I want to see your naughty side, not your annoyed-at-arriving-late side." -- tightening my game, LH lol.

The concert was.. amazing! B-list artists but very engaging and gorgeous scenery. She didn't want to tell her friends about us, but to my surprise, she secretly held my hand for 1/3rd of the concert. This was back to the delicious, romantic vibes instead of the frustrating ones.

When it was over, all her friends needed to use the restroom. She told me they actually knew about us. She guided me to a gorgeous view. I turned to her and she went.. PECK! Yes, just a peck. Back to frustration. She wondered why I didn't respond to her holding my hand earlier.

When we got home, I decided to direct--our issues needed solving or to be over. I heard what you said that she may feel ALMOST as rejected as me. I asked what she meant by not responding. I told her I was trying to be subtle since I thought she didn't want her friends to know about us--that her holding my hand enhanced the music, or maybe the music enhanced holding her hand. It was late!! She seemed to like my answer. I asked about the kiss--"That seemed like a romantic spot, what was up with the kiss?" She was worried about friends seeing. "I thought so, and now we're alone." She finally kissed me for reals. A couple of minutes later she told me her friends figured out about us when she insisted on changing into a short skirt and had her nails done--but I hadn't noticed? I told her I'd definitely noticed her sexy dress. She thanked me. I said I guess I should've complimented her on it earlier. She said acknowledged, yes. So, issues communicated maturely.

From there she took me to the backyard and moonlight, and when we went inside I didn't have to pull her arm too hard to make a part-time dance instructor dance instead of sit. It's what she prefers, why her living room has a big wooden floor and no t.v. She just hadn't wanted to overdue dancing with me since she's so into dance and most guys aren't. The turns got sexier. We took turns leading the type and length of kisses, who chose the songs, who led the moves.

She asked me if it was too early to invite me to her bedroom, to snuggle and talk, and next time I visited maybe to stay the night but no more.. yet. I'll skip what followed--PG-13 forum--but FINALLY after 8 months and for the first time in ages I didn't feel anxious or detached afterwards. I'm looking forward to our next dates--as long as I get another kiss, lol.

Now, for my road trip. Solitude and a friend. (:
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Butterfly
Easy and fun is the goal my friend.
Yes. I guess what made me want to try again--she likes me, many of my signals have been confusing too, and I have NOT been direct even avoiding uncomfortable topics. I do sense control is important to her. Literally, at one point she held my hands behind me while she kissed me. When I said "You seem to like that." she said "Hmm" with an evil grin. I'll have to watch that!
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 06:02 PM
She likes you. Shades of Andy P. Lots of people will like you. That doesn't mean you have to like them back.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 06:21 PM
DUDE! You are giving me whiplash with all this jerking around. You JUST said you were going last night as friends, despite the fact that she had said being just friends would be too hard considering her feelings, and now you make this whole post about how she didn't want to tell her friends "about us" and all the hand holding and pecking and what ever else I can only imagine since you didn't provide details (and thank you for that, by the way, because some things really should be kept private). I have WTF moments regularly. This is my first one today, so thanks for that.

Again, as always, bttrfly absolutely hits the nail right square on the head...just because someone shows interest in you, doesn't mean you have to show that back. Stop thinking with the wrong head. And, PLEASE, for the love of all things bright and beautiful, if you have not read up on Andrew's experience with S, do yourself a favor and read it all NOW. Andrew got some great advice along the way that you might benefit from as well. (Andrew, I love you, so please don't take any of this wrong.)
Originally Posted by bttrfly
What I also meant to say here is this: the problem with this woman is that things ALWAYS have to be her way.
This is a red flag.

This is her test:
Quote
and next time I visited maybe to stay the night but no more..

Lots of ways to respond: ranging from "Who says there will be a next time?" (Said with big smile) to "I only spend the night with women that want to have sex with me" (or some other direct statement about your desires).


Do you want to be in her frame, or do you want her in your frame?

My lady will be in my frame tonight. I am going to our normal drinking establishment. I will tell her where I am going and ask "Would you like to join me?" She will say yes (based on our previous interactions). I could do some research and find something more interesting, but the question is always the same. She might negotiate a different event, but she needs a break from making decisions and prefers her man to do that.

She will most likely give me a choice of several outfits. I will tell her which one I want her to wear by saying "You always look sexy in (outfit 3)"

I guess my point is invite her into your frame, if she doesn't come along, her loss. If she does, things are good for both of you. Challenge that "ALWAYS her way" statement.

No matter what, have fun!
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 09:29 PM
YIKES! You are now an "us"?

To use a question that helped me "Is this relationship acceptable to you?"

You appear to have been dragged into something you were just recently not been wanting. Exiting has now become much more complex if you choose that path.

Be careful this is what YOU want before it goes any further.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 09:51 PM
I found the beginning of Andrew's courtship of S. It's in the thread, "These Boots", pg 10. I'll read it soon.

Control - It's fair to say she's used to being in control more than I'm used to. I did 100% of plans with XW and 80% of plans with XGF. I was frustrated XGF second-guessed nearly all my plans. My Sunshine is quick to propose, quick to choose if I don't.. but when I've made plans or said a modification was important she went along with it.

Clinginess - It's fair to say she needs more together time than I'm used to. My XGF likes 10min calls, I liked 20min calls, Ms Sunshine likes 40min calls. She DOES have solo interests she doesn't need to share. She says partners should do solo things and together things, but if they want to do 50%+ of their vacations solo, something is wrong.

I don't want to discard a potentially good partner based on hunches. All will be revealed in a few more dates, no? I guess some things I see in her--the first person I've ever opened up to, deeply. She's not my XG in the epic outings department, but she is adventurous and determined. She's financially stable and attractive and the sexy time was solid. She dresses up for me. So far she's introduced me to scallops, shrimp, crab cakes, and new dance styles.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 09:59 PM
C-Dub, only going off what you write here, but in my head, I imagine the concert date as you being this puppy chasing her round whilst she sees you as this fun thing to play with....until she gets bored.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Andrew
You appear to have been dragged into something you were just recently not been wanting.
It was.. QUITE.. the pendulum swing! When you've only been on a handful of dates, one wonderful date plus communicating to resolve your issues can have a big effect. We'll see where we are in a week.. and after I read about your adventures with S. wink
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
C-Dub, only going off what you write here, but in my head, I imagine the concert date as you being this puppy chasing her round whilst she sees you as this fun thing to play with....until she gets bored.
She seems VERY into me, or at least very into what she imagines me to be. She bought me tickets to the concert, dressed up, got her nails down, initiated the hand-holding, and pulled me over to the romantic spot. I felt like the one being chased.. which makes sense from a distance/pursuer perspective.. given how I felt yesterday.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 10:57 PM
i have grave concerns about the yoyoing here. it's such a reminder of andrew's sitch with s. i've said my peace this is your life you will do what you think is best.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/03/21 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
i have grave concerns about the yoyoing here. it's such a reminder of andrew's sitch with s. i've said my peace this is your life you will do what you think is best.
As I used to tell the kids - if I can't be a good example then at least I can be a horrible warning crazy
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 01:36 AM
Quote
I do sense control is important to her. Literally, at one point she held my hands behind me while she kissed me. When I said "You seem to like that." she said "Hmm" with an evil grin.

Just one question, CW - given your childhood history, do you think it would be healthy for you to get into a relationship with a controlling dominatrix?

Not saying for sure that’s her, but some flags are waving. And no offense to anyone if that’s their kink.

Look - I can be difficult for some guys because I’m fiercely independent and can be a bit bold. But I’ve never given such mixed signals to anyone I dated, never held a guy’s hands behind his back when I kissed him - something just oddly controlling keeps coming up with her.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
I do sense control is important to her. Literally, at one point she held my hands behind me while she kissed me. When I said "You seem to like that." she said "Hmm" with an evil grin.

Just one question, CW - given your childhood history, do you think it would be healthy for you to get into a relationship with a controlling dominatrix?

Not saying for sure that’s her, but some flags are waving. And no offense to anyone if that’s their kink.

Look - I can be difficult for some guys because I’m fiercely independent and can be a bit bold. But I’ve never given such mixed signals to anyone I dated, never held a guy’s hands behind his back when I kissed him - something just oddly controlling keeps coming up with her.


^^^^ This.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 05:22 AM
I'm reading Andrew's saga with S.

Thread #1 she's getting by on alimony and child support and choosing not to work, and she's like.. "My support's about to go down.." KML's like, "This is a damsel in distress who never learned to live alone!" and 12 dates in Andrew's like "I love her, but I can resist rescuing her." Nobody has called out controlling tendencies, but Andrew seems to be ignoring red flags like me.

I'll be real. My 1st GF, XW, 5yr XGF, and last GF seem so broken compared to Ms Sunshine/Dominatrix. She's a Senior Manager. I see Andrew used the same argument. "S is so much better than B!"

The ideal would be to continue to date/explore without falling for her. Technically, we're 10 "1:1 meetings" in. I'm with Andrew. While this time I only said, "This means more to me than that you have a sexy behind.." and agreed to plan her birthday a month out, hormones are powerful. I need to set boundaries. "ILU" means committing to a future in thick or thin. That's not an afterglow topic nor something I should be discussing two more dates in. That's much later!
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I'm reading Andrew's saga with S.

Thread #1 she's getting by on alimony and child support and choosing not to work, and she's like.. "My support's about to go down.." KML's like, "This is a damsel in distress who never learned to live alone!" and 12 dates in Andrew's like "I love her, but I can resist rescuing her." Nobody has called out controlling tendencies, but Andrew seems to be ignoring red flags like me.

I'll be real. My 1st GF, XW, 5yr XGF, and last GF seem so broken compared to Ms Sunshine/Dominatrix. She's a Senior Manager. I see Andrew used the same argument. "S is so much better than B!"

The ideal would be to continue to date/explore without falling for her. Technically, we're 10 "1:1 meetings" in. I'm with Andrew. While this time I only said, "This means more to me than that you have a sexy behind.." and agreed to plan her birthday a month out, hormones are powerful. I need to set boundaries. "ILU" means committing to a future in thick or thin. That's not an afterglow topic nor something I should be discussing two more dates in. That's much later!

Ok, CW, I was going to play nice but now I HAVE to say something. You are a smart guy…..FAR too smart to not see what seems so obvious from the outside. First and foremost, if you haven’t read anything about anyone calling out controlling behavior with Andrew’s S, you just haven’t read far enough yet but you MUST realize that S and your “Sunshine” as you call her, are not the same and are not behaving the same. S was very much a victim/damsel in distress type, where Sunshine is clearly a more dominant/control person. You know why they are different besides the obvious fact that they are different women? Because they both know how to “catch” a man, for lack of a better description.

As if all the red flags that you yourself threw out there weren’t enough, you JUST referred to her as Ms. Sunshine/Dominatrix. Maybe that was a bit tongue in cheek considering all the comments you are getting but if it isn’t, man……..and if that is your kink, well, rock on, my friend.

You are using the same arguments/excuses Andrew did and it sounds like excuses coming from you just like it did Andrew. I’m sorry if any of this sounds harsh, but man, I just don’t think the outcome is going to be good because I think you are going to wind up in a situation where YOU don’t matter as long as she is happy.

Like kml, I have always been a strong and fiercely independent woman and have been told by men that dating me is intimidating because I don’t “need” a man and I can handle my own sh!t. I have never been a controlling person because I know relationships are all about compromise but I don’t throw my independence aside for any man. So, my point here is that I’m sure Sunshine does look better in comparison to some of your other relationships but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other women out there who are better suited for you who would also look better in comparison to your past choices.

Like bttrfly said a few posts back, I’ve said my peace and you are going to do what you are going to do. And honestly, that is what you have to do because you are there, living in it every day. I just urge you to be careful, keep your eyes wide open, and keep an open mind. You say you need to set boundaries so do it. Don’t get caught up say I love you too early because she’s going to. Mark my words, if you continue in this way, she’ll be saying it sooner than you expect and it will catch you off guard. Be careful, my friend!
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 12:42 PM
I don’t know that you are going to listen to any of us, but this has train wreck written all over it. You seek the same unstable dynamic from this woman as you did from your exGF. Both messed with your feelings and did a lot of gaslighting.

You crave it for some reason. There is kink, then there is self sabotage. I think it’s the latter in this case
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
I do sense control is important to her. Literally, at one point she held my hands behind me while she kissed me. When I said "You seem to like that." she said "Hmm" with an evil grin.

Just one question, CW - given your childhood history, do you think it would be healthy for you to get into a relationship with a controlling dominatrix?


^^^^ This.
I'm re-posting this and bolding the important part because you haven't answered the question and I think it's vital that you do so, if not here, then in your own mind and soul.

I'm bending my personal boundary of not disclosing intimate details to tell you this: I was an abused child, emotionally and physically. There are gradations of physical abuse and thankfully mine wasn't bad enough to seek medical treatment, but the emotional scars remain. For all that I'm extremely selective in terms of partners, I am also pretty broad minded once I do commit, but I am NEVER going to be comfortable with a lover who grooves towards sexual play that is reminiscent of the kind of physical abuse my mother meted out to me. I know this about myself and am very clear about that boundary. Can you say the same ???

If you heed nothing else, please please please I beg you to heed this. The psychological scars you could be opening yourself up for could be devastating. I do not want that for you, but the real question is do you want that for yourself?
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ginger1
You crave it for some reason. There is kink, then there is self sabotage. I think it’s the latter in this case
I think it's the magic two for one package
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I'm reading Andrew's saga with S.

Thread #1 she's getting by on alimony and child support and choosing not to work, and she's like.. "My support's about to go down.." KML's like, "This is a damsel in distress who never learned to live alone!" and 12 dates in Andrew's like "I love her, but I can resist rescuing her." Nobody has called out controlling tendencies, but Andrew seems to be ignoring red flags like me.

I'll be real. My 1st GF, XW, 5yr XGF, and last GF seem so broken compared to Ms Sunshine/Dominatrix. She's a Senior Manager. I see Andrew used the same argument. "S is so much better than B!"

I think you're getting way too caught up in her job title. I knew an executive who was an absolute train wreck serial philanderer in his personal life. He had an affair with a lower level employee, broke up her marriage, not his ... eventually though his chronic cheating did cost him his marriage. At the same time he went to a c-level position of a very high profile national company. If you looked at his professional life/title, he was tops in his field (and he really was quite brilliant at what he did for work). IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY TRANSLATE TO WHO THEY ARE AS PEOPLE WHEN THEY AREN'T AT WORK. That's no yard stick. It really bothers me that you keep harping on her financial success/job title as an indicator of who she is privately. It's a set up and an excuse for you to ignore the red flags we've pointed out as well as your own red flags.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I'm reading Andrew's saga with S.

Thread #1 she's getting by on alimony and child support and choosing not to work, and she's like.. "My support's about to go down.." KML's like, "This is a damsel in distress who never learned to live alone!" and 12 dates in Andrew's like "I love her, but I can resist rescuing her." Nobody has called out controlling tendencies, but Andrew seems to be ignoring red flags like me.

I'll be real. My 1st GF, XW, 5yr XGF, and last GF seem so broken compared to Ms Sunshine/Dominatrix. She's a Senior Manager. I see Andrew used the same argument. "S is so much better than B!"

I think you're getting way too caught up in her job title. I knew an executive who was an absolute train wreck serial philanderer in his personal life. He had an affair with a lower level employee, broke up her marriage, not his ... eventually though his chronic cheating did cost him his marriage. At the same time he went to a c-level position of a very high profile national company. If you looked at his professional life/title, he was tops in his field (and he really was quite brilliant at what he did for work). IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY TRANSLATE TO WHO THEY ARE AS PEOPLE WHEN THEY AREN'T AT WORK. That's no yard stick. It really bothers me that you keep harping on her financial success/job title as an indicator of who she is privately. It's a set up and an excuse for you to ignore the red flags we've pointed out as well as your own red flags.

I’m just going to follow bttrfly from thread to thread so I can say ditto. Every last little bit of what she just wrote! I guarantee you everyone of us has a story just like the one bttrfly shared. I have a very close friend who is very high up, very successful in his field, very well-respected in all his professional circles. In his private life, big ole hot mess. He’s been married twice, divorced his 2nd wife, after she caught him cheating for probably the 1000th time, ran around and slept with LOTS of women (and a few men), then went back to the 2nd XW. They have been back together for a couple of years now and I know he’s cheated on her at least 10 times since they got back together (and those are just the ones I know about because he told me). I’m not necessarily saying Sunshine is a cheater but I’m trying to support bttrfly’s point that professional acumen has NOTHING to do with personal relationships. We are pointing out red flags you’re ignoring, but even scarier to me, you are bringing up red flags on your own then excusing/justifying them. I wish you could go back and read all your posts about her objectively and really think about what you’re saying.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 03:50 PM
Job titles
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I'm reading Andrew's saga with S.

Thread #1 she's getting by on alimony and child support and choosing not to work, and she's like.. "My support's about to go down.." KML's like, "This is a damsel in distress who never learned to live alone!" and 12 dates in Andrew's like "I love her, but I can resist rescuing her." Nobody has called out controlling tendencies, but Andrew seems to be ignoring red flags like me.

I'll be real. My 1st GF, XW, 5yr XGF, and last GF seem so broken compared to Ms Sunshine/Dominatrix. She's a Senior Manager. I see Andrew used the same argument. "S is so much better than B!"



I think you're getting way too caught up in her job title. I knew an executive who was an absolute train wreck serial philanderer in his personal life. He had an affair with a lower level employee, broke up her marriage, not his ... eventually though his chronic cheating did cost him his marriage. At the same time he went to a c-level position of a very high profile national company. If you looked at his professional life/title, he was tops in his field (and he really was quite brilliant at what he did for work). IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY TRANSLATE TO WHO THEY ARE AS PEOPLE WHEN THEY AREN'T AT WORK. That's no yard stick. It really bothers me that you keep harping on her financial success/job title as an indicator of who she is privately. It's a set up and an excuse for you to ignore the red flags we've pointed out as well as your own red flags.

All of this. Look at politicians and their high powered job titles abs the the scandals they involve themselves in.

A high earning/ power job title does not make a good partner
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/04/21 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I’m just going to follow bttrfly from thread to thread so I can say ditto.
There's a reason why you two are some of my favourite people laugh
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/05/21 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Nobody has called out controlling tendencies, but Andrew seems to be ignoring red flags like me.
Most of the nay-sayers focused on the fact that she had multiple failed relationships. I put it down to her making poor choices which may or may not be true. A SAHM with 5 kids and big boobs could attract a certain sort of person who has their own priorities.

The controlling was insidious and started with consuming all of my available free time and minimizing my wants and needs. Because it was insidious, nobody here caught on to it before I did if I recall correctly.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I see Andrew used the same argument. "S is so much better than B!"
And boy oh boy was I wrong. B was loving but distracted by her multiple family and ex issues. She was supportive but not wanting to be involved. We were fundamentally not compatible though and B wasn't in a place where she should have been dating anyone.

S had good game at the beginning but didn't keep it up once she had me landed. I kept making excuses for her shortcomings in child-care, housekeeping, interest in the outside world. She was a pro though at keeping a man in his place. DARVO was her standard argument style to the point where I could basically count as she went through each step as it was so obvious now that I know what it is. "Knock him down, make him feel bad and then you get what you want and keep him quiet" was her modus operandi. I never felt "lifted up".

The key problem I feel with both relationships was how unbalanced they were. "What's in it for me" sounds selfish but I've learned is a necessary question. 5 Love Languages is a good starting point to look to see if your needs are being fulfilled I still think. I made romantic gestures, helped them with whatever they were needing and got little in return. The companionship that was a key want for me wasn't there. Plop either woman in front of the TV or their phone and they were content for hours. Neither one wanted anything to do with my friends or extended family but expected me to integrate into their's.

For me, any relationship - and S and I had conversations about this - should be additive. Where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. The "team" can tackle things that are beyond the individual. Never happened in either case.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
hormones are powerful. I need to set boundaries. "ILU" means committing to a future in thick or thin. That's not an afterglow topic nor something I should be discussing two more dates in. That's much later!
Yep - but when the steam-roller is bearing down on you and you are in the glow of those hormones it's hard.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/05/21 05:33 PM
BTW the most on point advice I've received was from kml, bttrfly, Dawn and especially job who has been my guardian angel for many years.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/05/21 06:35 PM
@Andrew, thanks for sharing more! Hormones are powerful. I re-read 1/3rd of a book of romantic poetry I had and sent her one matching my feelings. Logically, I know there's still so much to discover about each other. Film preferences, if she accepts my place, etc.

You've at least armed me to recognize DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim/Offender roles). "What's in it for me?" -- For now, I have a romantic evening ahead, then two adventures for her to choose Monday. I'll keep asking this. Small yo-yo's, normal. Big yo-yo's by her, I bail.

It sounds like you rescue damsels in distress. My last XGF was a Harvard professor and international athlete. My XGF before that was tight with the mayor and city council of a big city. At first glance, our partners are very different, except unbeknownst to the public high-performers often need significant support. Ultimately, maybe we both put ourselves on the backburner?

---

@Ginger, it's not lost on me the rollercoaster pattern--the great kayaking non-date, the meh dinner date and her breaking up, the great kayaking non-date, the miserable home date and me breaking up, the wonderful concert date. But I'm half that yo-yo, aren't I?

Today I give her the gift of consistency. I sent her my first romantic poem and am coming over for the planned sleeping next to each other, kisses, and day tomorrow. A slight change in feelings, not ready for more sexy times? Normal. No kiss, no sleepover, or no date? Too much.

---

@Butterfly - You're right--a good career and home are only 2 of 7 dimensions of wellness. re: BDSM, I agree that may not be healthy to explore based on my childhood. Interesting thought! Thanks for sharing. I get it's a deeply personal thing and I appreciate it.

---

@Dawn -

[quote= So, my point here is that I’m sure Sunshine does look better in comparison to some of your other relationships but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other women out there who are better suited for you who would also look better in comparison to your past choices.[/quote]

Dawn, I think a few here have half-jokingly, half-seriously said we both have red flags. For her, what I see most clearly is her inability to be alone and her inconsistent affection. You guys see control issues--I am still assessing that. For me, it's my disorganization and.. inconsistent affection. I do think LH's assessment was dead on that both her and my behavior were confusing. wink

I think if Sparky had a twin sister--I like Sparky, lol--she probably wouldn't date me yet. I need to keep building myself up while I vet if she is okay with me being alone, she can be consistent, and if these control issues are real or imagined based on a few interactions.

---

Update - I re-organized my bookshelf. Removed--a shelf full of albums and scrapbooks from my childhood that doesn't spark joy; I looked through them! I put that off for years. Added--a shelf about my son to go with the one about me and the one about my daughter; Clarified--removed nicknacks and books that hold no meaning; Cleaned--the top shelf. Lazy maid service. wink

The bookshelf near my entrance now says something about me and my family!

I also have a valid driver's license again to go with my credit card.

On the minus side I'm late on a payment and will have a $100 fee. The problem is I can't find my checkbook, which may or may not be in one of the boxes of "things" I removed. I found one debt I hadn't paid and the store agreed to drop all late fees--yay!

The car--looks like the transmission is toast. Oof. smirk

Slowly putting things in order.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/05/21 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
You've at least armed me to recognize DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim/Offender roles).
an important skill, separate from whether this relationship progresses or not.


---
Originally Posted by CWarrior
@Ginger, it's not lost on me the rollercoaster pattern--the great kayaking non-date, the meh dinner date and her breaking up, the great kayaking non-date, the miserable home date and me breaking up, the wonderful concert date. But I'm half that yo-yo, aren't I?

---

@Dawn -

Originally Posted by Dawn70
So, my point here is that I’m sure Sunshine does look better in comparison to some of your other relationships but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other women out there who are better suited for you who would also look better in comparison to your past choices.

Dawn, I think a few here have half-jokingly, half-seriously said we both have red flags. For her, what I see most clearly is her inability to be alone and her [/b]inconsistent affection[/b]. You guys see control issues--I am still assessing that. For me, it's my disorganization and.. inconsistent affection.

This resonated with me. About 3 years ago I met someone. We started hanging out as friends. I sensed he was interested in more but would back off if I gave the impression that it was ok. The bottom line is we were both wishy washy. People attract what they give out. Something to think about, eh?

---
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Update - I re-organized my bookshelf. Removed--a shelf full of albums and scrapbooks from my childhood that doesn't spark joy; I looked through them! I put that off for years. Added--a shelf about my son to go with the one about me and the one about my daughter; Clarified--removed nicknacks and books that hold no meaning; Cleaned--the top shelf. Lazy maid service. wink

The bookshelf near my entrance now says something about me and my family!

I also have a valid driver's license again to go with my credit card.

On the minus side I'm late on a payment and will have a $100 fee. The problem is I can't find my checkbook, which may or may not be in one of the boxes of "things" I removed. I found one debt I hadn't paid and the store agreed to drop all late fees--yay!

The car--looks like the transmission is toast. Oof. smirk

Slowly putting things in order.

AWESOME. Good job! Keep moving forward.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/06/21 11:18 AM
You are the absolute mother part of the go yo. But why?

Hey, if you are enjoying yourself and having fun, who am I to say end things now?

At this point in time you should be having nothing but a good time. So if you are, good for you!
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/07/21 04:57 AM
Had a great evening and a good day with Ms. Sunshine.

The 1/2-second kisses continue. We spent a night and a long day in each other's arms and--peck, peck. I told her I like long, deep kisses. She says she likes gentle, short kisses. I guess this is part of why we date, to see if differences can be negotiated, accepted, or not. (:
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/07/21 04:51 PM
I feel good about this weekend's date. I was assertive about some things, flexible about others. She made me breakfast. She introduced me to more firsts while out adventuring. We're dating. We all have different preferences for romance vs. passion, frequency/duration of sex. I could fall for her--I'll give it time and some effort--but if not, it's okay.

I am not yours, not lost in you,
Not lost, although I long to be
Lost as a candle lit at noon,
Lost as a snowflake in the sea.

You love me, and I find you still
A spirit beautiful and bright,
Yet I am I, who long to be
Lost as a light is lost in light.

Oh plunge me deep in love—put out
My senses, leave me deaf and blind,
Swept by the tempest of your love,
A taper in a rushing wind.

When dating future partners, I may be quicker about kissing and sex. I prefer an emotional connection, but by delaying those, I may be self-selecting away from partners very into them. I also am not as carried away by emotions as I imagined I would. I remember I was deeply affected the one time my XGF and I broke-up for a month and I slept with someone.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/07/21 06:30 PM
Today I'm taking a 90-min 1:1 dance lesson. I enjoy dance, and how often do you date a dance instructor? I'd like to solidify some basics since Ms. Sunshine likes to do intermediate/advanced moves.

Tomorrow Ms Sunshine is coming over. Extra impetus to de-clutter my home.

Thursday I see a friend who's returning from a month of travel. (:
Originally Posted by CWarrior
When dating future partners, I may be quicker about kissing and sex.
I am not sure that is in your control. My experience is that each interaction with women is different.

Bill Murry in groundhogs day is a perfect example. It is more about how he behaves and his intentions and her level of attractions to his behaviors.

One of my mantras: "The man is in charge of the sex and romance department".

Keep honing your skills on reading the signals from a woman. Have fun building the sexual tension. It should be clear to you that she wants a kiss. Never initiate a kiss before she is ready....Don't wait too long after she is ready.
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/07/21 11:54 PM
Quote
"The man is in charge of the sex and romance department".

What century are we in again???????
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
"The man is in charge of the sex and romance department".

What century are we in again???????
It's the Year of the Beleaguered Badger in the Century of the Rat (waves at any other Discworld fans)

I expect that CWarrior has figured out that the inconsistent advice he's been getting is because different people have different points of view. Some are big believers in "the Coach" and his systems for getting a girl to fall for you. Others aren't and have different priorities.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
"The man is in charge of the sex and romance department".

What century are we in again???????
KML I am really interested in why you have a problem with that statement?
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 02:55 PM
Quote
Some are big believers in "the Coach" and his systems for getting a girl to fall for you. Others aren't and have different priorities.

Even IF you are interested in using a “system” to get a woman to fall for you - it’s too early for that! CW is still figuring out whether he WANTS this woman or not - he’s still shopping!

Now, once you’ve decided this IS the woman for you and you definitely want to woo her- figure out her love languages and speak them. And be yourself because ultimately, if she falls for someone you’re not, it’ll come out eventually. It’s much better to be in a relationship with someone who thinks you’re great just as you are.

If you’re just looking to get laid and don’t care about the other person, then fine , use your “system”. But in this century, most quality women are looking for an equal partner, not some “big daddy” who’s going to “take charge” -ick.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 03:33 PM
women let men think they are in charge of the sex and romance department. some are more adept at that than others. the truth is, the woman gets to decide. the man needs to make it worth her while ... and i don't mean monetarily or materially. See Kml's answer.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Even IF you are interested in using a “system” to get a woman to fall for you - it’s too early for that! CW is still figuring out whether he WANTS this woman or not - he’s still shopping!
Falling for you is Andy P's words and sounds like manipulation. R2C just said "the man is in charge of the sex and romance department. Which means he takes the lead.
Originally Posted by kml
Now, once you’ve decided this IS the woman for you and you definitely want to woo her- figure out her love languages and speak them.
I would argue you are not going to find out if this woman is for you until you had sex with her. Possible for some. Not me personally.
Originally Posted by kml
And be yourself because ultimately, if she falls for someone you’re not, it’ll come out eventually. It’s much better to be in a relationship with someone who thinks you’re great just as you are.
Again if you learn to take charge and show a woman romance then it is who you are.
Originally Posted by kml
If you’re just looking to get laid and don’t care about the other person, then fine , use your “system”. But in this century, most quality women are looking for an equal partner, not some “big daddy” who’s going to “take charge” -ick.
Who says you can't get laid and care about a person? What system? Big Daddy? WTF is that lol. The last thing a woman wants is for a man to show up with no plan and sit there and say "uuummm I don't know what do you want to do?

I think you are way overblowing what R2C said KML. But that's just my opinion.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
women let men think they are in charge of the sex and romance department. some are more adept at that than others. the truth is, the woman gets to decide. the man needs to make it worth her while ... and i don't mean monetarily or materially. See Kml's answer.
I agree that ultimately the woman decides if sex happens. It's a man's job to lead her to a place where she feels safe and comfortable to have sex with him. This is where CWs usually screws up by saying something like "I'm tired I want to go" etc.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
"The man is in charge of the sex and romance department".

What century are we in again???????
It's the Year of the Beleaguered Badger in the Century of the Rat (waves at any other Discworld fans)

I expect that CWarrior has figured out that the inconsistent advice he's been getting is because different people have different points of view. Some are big believers in "the Coach" and his systems for getting a girl to fall for you. Others aren't and have different priorities.

Honestly, I didn't think CW was getting terribly inconsistent advice before I read the last few posts. I think we were all kind of saying the same thing, albeit in different ways. Most of us were saying she's crazy and you should run and if you do intend to stay, you are giving off mixed signals. (Which, ok, those are somewhat inconsistent, but overwhelmingly, I think many of us were in the slow your roll camp.)

But, now, this new discussion and I must say, I'm totally with kml and bttrfly on this one. Of course women don't want wishy washy dudes, but we also don't want a guy who comes in with the mindset that he is "in charge" of anything. Can the man take the lead, sure, but sometimes women also like to take the lead. I have never been one to sit around and wait for a man to take charge of any part of anything. I want to feel safe and comfortable and all those things, but it isn't on the man solely to put me in that place. It is also on me to choose wisely and learn about the person and to gauge where he is at interest wise. I have a dad who used to be in charge of me, when I was a child. I don't need ANY man, my husband included to be in charge of anything about me now that I'm an adult. I'm not putting words in kml's mouth because she's plenty able enough to express herself, but that is my problem with the statement as it was made.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 04:45 PM
Lol. We are comparing a father being in charge of a child to a man planning a date and making the first move for a kiss.

You people are too much lol.
Posted By: pinn Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
"The man is in charge of the sex and romance department".

What century are we in again???????
It's the Year of the Beleaguered Badger in the Century of the Rat (waves at any other Discworld fans)

I expect that CWarrior has figured out that the inconsistent advice he's been getting is because different people have different points of view. Some are big believers in "the Coach" and his systems for getting a girl to fall for you. Others aren't and have different priorities.

He has not been getting inconsistent advice... everyone has been telling him the same thing.
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 04:51 PM
You put the right words in my mouth, Dawn. And coming from a generation where men would sometimes do really weird controlling stuff like ordering for the woman in a restaurant (without her permission!) anything that smacks of manipulation doesn't sit well with me.

Sure, we don't want a guy to have no opinion - we also don't want him to be "in charge", we are not children. I like a guy to put some effort into planning a date or activity to show he's genuine in his interest in me, but if it's something I would hate to do I have no compunction about discussing changing plans - just as you would do with any friend.

As for CW's conflicting signals - they are conflicting if your goal is just to get the woman in bed, they're not conflicting if you're still trying to figure out if you WANT to sleep with a woman who might be a bunny boiler.

And while both parties should make an effort to put their best foot forward, they also should be honest - because, as I said, someone who falls for a fake version of you isn't going to be very happy in the long run with the real you. And there's nothing more uncomfortable than being in a relationship with someone who is constantly trying to change you to their ideal (ask me how I know).

AS for not knowing if the woman is for you until you've slept with her - true. BUT you may find out she's NOT for you before you get to the stage of sleeping with her, and if either A) she's got bunny boiler potential or B) you're likely to get too attached once the hormones are flowing even if she's not right for you (see Andrew ) then taking your time getting to sleeping together may be a good idea. (Note well: this is coming from a woman who has jumped into bed on a couple of first dates, BUT was not necessarily looking for a permanent relationship AND is very capable of not getting attached if the other person is not really available or right. Most of my friends can't do that. )
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Lol. We are comparing a father being in charge of a child to a man planning a date and making the first move for a kiss.

You people are too much lol.
it's all about language, and the language used was a bit more authoritarian than take charge/non-wussy.

BTW, I prefer a man to assess the vibe and go in for the kiss without asking for permission first. Gotta be able to assess the vibe or there's gonna be problems in other areas, if things progress that far.

I think this woman has CW so confused by her off-putting back and forth behavior that I don't blame him for bailing when she gives the 5th green light after putting the stop up the 4 previous times. I'd be so far gone she wouldn't even be able to see the tail lights of my car.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by bttrfly
women let men think they are in charge of the sex and romance department. some are more adept at that than others. the truth is, the woman gets to decide. the man needs to make it worth her while ... and i don't mean monetarily or materially. See Kml's answer.
I agree that ultimately the woman decides if sex happens. It's a man's job to lead her to a place where she feels safe and comfortable to have sex with him. This is where CWs usually screws up by saying something like "I'm tired I want to go" etc.
??? why does one person have to lead? Can't this all just evolve organically, with two people just going with the flow? Seems so manipulative ... and if I found out someone was using a 'system' to get me into bed, they'd never get me into bed a second time, if they were lucky enough to have success once.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
??? why does one person have to lead?
Ok let the woman lead. You want to see a pi$$ed off woman. Let a woman get the sitter, make the reservations, pick out a place to go, then drive there and get the table, pay for the bill and then go home if by a fraction of a chance she wants to have sex she can make the first move. I have friends who husbands act like that and guess what they get zero sex.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Can't this all just evolve organically, with two people just going with the flow?
Yes!!!! This is how it goes when you have a man who knows what he is doing and is gently leading.
Seems so manipulative ...
Originally Posted by bttrfly
and if I found out someone was using a 'system' to get me into bed, they'd never get me into bed a second time, if they were lucky enough to have success once.
LOL for some guys it's not a system. It's natural and they do it because they love the way a woman responds.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 07:51 PM
A man “gently leading” is one thing, LH. A man being in control of all sex and romance is another thing entirely. Put the shoe on the other foot and if a woman said all women should be in charge of sex and romance, some men (note I did not say all nor did I specifically call out anyone here) would be calling her a controlling b!tch or worse.
Originally Posted by LH19
Ok let the woman lead. You want to see a pi$$ed off woman. Let a woman get the sitter, make the reservations, pick out a place to go, then drive there and get the table, pay for the bill and then go home if by a fraction of a chance she wants to have sex she can make the first move. I have friends who husbands act like that and guess what they get zero sex.
That has been my observation.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn70
A man “gently leading” is one thing, LH. A man being in control of all sex and romance is another thing entirely.

[quote=Dawn70] "The man is in charge of the sex and romance department". .
Holy smokes! No where here does he say a man controls all the sex and romance.

Originally Posted by Dawn70
Put the shoe on the other foot and if a woman said all women should be in charge of sex and romance, some men (note I did not say all nor did I specifically call out anyone here) would be calling her a controlling b!tch or worse.
Quite frankly I would love it! lol.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 08:08 PM
I’ll admit, I’m obviously not a guy and don’t see it from a guy’s perspective so, LH, what I’m about to say is not meant to be argumentative but rather asking for clarification because I’m not sure I understand. R2C quoted above what I am about to ask about so I’m not going to require it but assuming you just described a woman someone is seeing but NOT married to. I’m not sure how the woman is going to be pissed off in this scenario. If I wanted to go out with someone bad enough, I would do all those things and at the end of the night, if I was interested in sex and he wasn’t then so be it. Would I be frustrated, probably, but pissed off, probably not. Besides, think about a typical marriage (again, NOT saying all marriages or calling anyone out specifically) but typically in a marriage scenario, the woman IS the one doing all that with the exception of paying (probably still coming from a joint account though) and maybe driving. Again, I’m NOT trying to argue, just trying to understand your point of view because I’m beginning to think Sparky and I have our roles reversed. Lol
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 08:25 PM
Well what I described is from a marriage I know and I think it happens a lot in marriages.

I think that's why R2C and myself have found that women respond better when we take charge/lead.

That doesn't mean we control everything.

Some women like to be in charge all the time. That usually doesn't work for me.
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 09:55 PM
Bottom line - confidence is sexy. Manipulation is not.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Bottom line - confidence is sexy. Manipulation is not.
Sometimes I feel that you guys don’t even read my posts lol.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 10:46 PM
I did read them and that is why I asked for clarification. Maybe it is a semantics thing. I don’t mind a guy who takes charge occasionally as long as I have veto rights. I don’t mind being in charge occasionally and would most certainly extend veto rights to my partner. The way I read and interpreted the quote about men being in control of sex and romance seemed controllling to me which is why I likened it to how a father would treat a child. Again, maybe that is semantics. Or maybe it is a female vs male point of view. For me personally, I want an EQUAL partnership because I can bait my own hook and load my own gun. I don’t NEED a man for anything, but I WANT an equal male partner to share my life with. That means sometimes he takes charge and sometimes I do. Now honestly, in my marriage, I am the planner. Sparky loves to cook so he’ll plan amazing meals but if I expect him to plan a trip, not happening. He’ll sit down with me and say “I’d like to do a,b,c” or whatever but he has ZERO interest in the minutiae of planning, making reservations, buying tickets, etc. I, on the other hand, am detail oriented (and a bit of a control freak) so I’ll gladly make phone calls and find websites to book reservations. That isn’t to say that I’m in control of everything because I ask for his input but I don’t mind handling things and he couldn’t care less so that works for us. On the other hand, when he sets his mind to something, Sparky does fine planning. For my 50th birthday, he surprised me with tickets to the touring show “Wicked” and planned our whole evening. He also worked with my family to plan me a 50th birthday party. I agree with kml that confidence is sexy but manipulation isn’t. I don’t think your characterization of gentle leading is manipulation, but if a man is ordering for me or some of those other things kml mentioned, THAT is manipulation. And let me get this out there. WOMEN CAN BE MANIPULATIVE TOO. And if you aren’t sure about that, I invite you to go back and read CW’s posts about Sunshine and Andrew’s posts about S again. Pure manipulation on both parts, one FAR more blatant than the other…
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 11:03 PM
Lol. No one said “men are in control of sex”.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
One of my mantras: "The man is in charge of the sex and romance department".
I can plainly see R2C said “in charge” rather than “in control”. I won’t keep belaboring the point because we’re clearly not seeing eye to eye, but obviously I interpreted his “in charge” as “ in control” and I still fail to see how those are different. You keep saying they are but I just don’t get it. If I’m in charge of something, I’m in control of it.
Posted By: pinn Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 11:29 PM
good thing this is getting locked... what a multipage de-rail.... back to C-dubs dating life!
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 11:31 PM
Let’s just say for arguments sake that in many marriages with children the women is in charge of getting the school supplies. That doesn’t mean she’s in control of the supplies and the man can’t pick some up. It means she’s the one who takes the lead and makes sure the supplies get bought.

Hope this analogy helps.
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I did read them and that is why I asked for clarification. Maybe it is a semantics thing.
Definitely.



This is MY mantra, maybe LH19's, but not everyone's:
Quote
The man is in charge of the "sex and romance" department.

I have a choice to go home and sit in front of the tube or the PC and ignore my lady, but I find it is much better for my relationship with her to swing by store and pick up some flowers just because. I find it better to be romantic rather than boring or distracted by other things.

Same thing regarding sex. If the bottle of lube (or condoms) runs out, I feel I should replenish it. I don't believe it is her problem to solve.

I definitely do not want the bedroom to become boring. I do not believe my lady does either. If she expresses interest in new areas, I will make it happen for her.

I am also in charge of the "Car repair" department. That doesn't mean my lady doesn't do things that help with the maintenance of the cars. Same thing in the S&R department.



CW is getting his feet wet with the ladies again. It was a big shift in my belief system to go from a married man to dating. How does one wrap their head around forsaking all other until death do us part to dating/kissing/sex?
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 11:41 PM
I think everyone is different.

For me, I do a whole lot on my own and I’m always charge. I personally like a man to lead and be decisive and not wishy washy. It makes me feel like they are just uninterested and don’t put forth effort.

If a man makes me feel comfortable by being strong, confident and leading, I feel much more confident, and well, much more turned on.

What does not work for me is game playing and drama. Huge turn off.

If a man is interested, he needs to act interested. Otherwise, I’m probably pissed for one day and then I’ve lost interest totally.

Is a man in charge of sex? No. But I do believe he yields a lot of power in wanting to get the woman to have sex with him. Not through games or does he decide when a woman should have it. But I do think a man controls the level of sexual energy.

That’s my two cents.

I honestly don’t understand what is going on with CW’s dynamic. It’s confusing. Poems of love. The teasing. The sleeping next to eachother but no kissing. Sounds like a total control tactic on her end. But that’s only something he knows and if
He is getting enjoyment out of it, power to ya.

And for the record. I don’t think he’s getting a bunch of different points of views. We all kind of warned on the bunny boiler stuff and her games. And that he is as well, the other part of the yo yo which isn’t helping much .
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/08/21 11:53 PM
For the record, take what I say with a grain of salt, because I am clearly bad at love and relationships , lol
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
CW is getting his feet wet with the ladies again. It was a big shift in my belief system to go from a married man to dating. How does one wrap their head around forsaking all other until death do us part to dating/kissing/sex?
same thing for married women. still trying to wrap my head around it...
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 03:08 AM
Haha bttrfly - I guess because I dated a lot of guys before my marriage, the first time I slept with a guy after my divorce was - well - like riding a bike. Didn’t hurt that he was tall, handsome, smart, and devastatingly sexy though wink
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 05:17 AM
I don’t know Ginger. You make a whole lot of sense to me…lol. I’m also getting a bit confused at what is going on. It just seems like way too much trouble to me. And so complicated when it should be really straight forward at this stage of the game. Honestly, reading about it just makes me tired. But…if he’s enjoying it, all the more power to him. smile
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 06:53 PM
I'm realizing two things: (1) Ms Sunshine is probably (80%) not a match for me--her passionate/sexual needs may be much higher than her STBXH's 3x/10yr marriage but are lower than mine, (2) I'm part of the drama in my relationships and I need to stop.

So, we had a blow-up. This weekend we slept overnight in each other's arms and had a wonderful outing--and then, at farewell, 1/2-second PECK PECK. I asked for a good kiss. 1/2 second PECK PECK. She ended the day feeling very enamored. I ended the day feeling frustrated. I considered breaking up as incompatible. Instead, I called her to tell her longer kisses were important to me. The next day she was fairly quiet, then that evening she blew up that it sounded like (never stated) not having a good kiss had invalidated all the amazing moments--laying in each others' arms, sharing poetry, etc. and she felt like I was considering breaking up with her and she didn't feel safe.

So, last night we made-up. I told her the other parts had been important to me, and (she likes quantifying) said the kisses were 10% of the day--she'd gotten the impression they were 90%. Apparently, I'd forgotten the rule to start with positives. I got 1-second kisses. This morning, I found myself again thinking about breaking up so I could date someone more.. passionate. It's not that she and I are exclusive. It's that she's taking up all my date slots. wink

A few things dawned on me. Yes, a) Ms Sunshine is probably (80%) not a good match--but b) Why am I being anything less than direct that LONG-TERM sex has to be more than a weekly thing c) Why am I spending 30-60 minutes considering whether to break-up after each date? I'm adding instability, and she can sense it, as could my XGF. If my mind is not settled, date more, if it is settled, breakup. While her drive may be lower, adding instability probably drives it even lower. She wants to feel safe just like I do. d) Why am I not spending more time on how I deliver my messages?

+ "Why am I bothering?" - My mind is only 80% settled. I'm learning more about myself. I've learned a new wilderness skill and discovered I enjoy seafood (scallops, caviar, and crab cakes). I'm continuing to foster friendships. I've learned more about building tension with someone who is not super direct and passionate. Today I'm going with a friend for her Back To School Night.

+ As for who controls sex, obviously the lady must concur, but often I pull back or "have to go" when things are heating up. Ms Sunshine overcame that by literally saying, "Do you really HAVE to go?" I won't seek out one-night stands, but I'm done with backing off when I'm feeling it. And my house is good enough I had her over and she said, "What was the big deal??"
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 07:34 PM
My head is spinning.

How can you break up if you aren’t a couple ?

How are you having a “blow up” after a few dates?

This is incompatibility at its best. Now is the time to cut your losses.

I mean, CW, I could have told you how delicious seafood is .

This pecking thing is really weird
Posted By: AndrewP Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
1/2-second PECK PECK. I asked for a good kiss. 1/2 second PECK PECK.
That's her method - some people aren't deep passionate kiss types. If it's a deal breaker for you, then the deal is off. Don't try to make someone into what you want. Accept them for what they are or let them go.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
It's that she's taking up all my date slots. wink
This is very familiar. Part of the "how to land a man" system. I had that happen to me and I've seen it with others that I know.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
a) Ms Sunshine is probably (80%) not a good match
Assuming I'm reading this correctly 80% NOT a good match is waay down the list. Even 80% good match sounds like the 0ther 20% are deal breakers.

From this perspective, based on what you've written, your subconscious is tapping you on the noggin and telling you that this isn't working and/or that you aren't ready for this level of a relationship. It's not been all that long since you had your rather difficult breakup from XGF from some perspectives. Are you confident that you've taken care of everything on your side of the street and are ready and able to be a consistent and reliable partner?
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 07:53 PM
Quote
Ms Sunshine is probably (80%) not a match for me--her passionate/sexual needs may be much higher than her STBXH's 3x/10yr marriage but are lower than mine,

Ummm - (clearing throat) - may I remind you what I said on August 30th?

Quote
There's no way I could have hung in for ten years as a young person with sex only 3 times? And then, except for the fling with the ex-fiance, basically no sex since? I'd take that as a warning that HER sex drive may not be all you would like either. (Granted, she was raising a kid, but still. )
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 07:55 PM
And again - you do NOT have to list all the things wrong with the relationship, because she'll have an argument against each. The proper answer is simply "I just don't think we're a match" and that's it. No fault. Just the truth - not a good fit.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ginger
How can you break up if you aren’t a couple ?
I'm baffled by that one, too. By her count, I've broken up 1.5x, and she's broken up 0x.

Originally Posted by Ginger
This pecking thing is really weird
She said she considers short pecks romantic. I asked if she considered longer kisses or with tongue more passionate. She said no, kisses with tongue are just "aggressive". She scrunches up her face when she says "aggressive".

She says she's teaching me "normal kissing" and acts like I have a kissing fetish. She really wanted to drill down into why I believe longer kisses are important. I could improve, but my kissing technique is mostly on-point and I don't think 2-second kisses or making out is a fetish. I could probably accept this quirk if she were passionate in other ways.

And that's probably how to approach this. Are you open to trying making out? Are you open to trying sensual massage? Are you open to...? It's only going to work if it's mutually enjoyable, not if one of us is doing something to hang onto the other.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I'm realizing two things: (1) Ms Sunshine is probably (80%) not a match for me--her passionate/sexual needs may be much higher than her STBXH's 3x/10yr marriage but are lower than mine, (2) I'm part of the drama in my relationships and I need to stop.
Put her into friend zone. I love KLM statement :"We are not a good match". Go date multiple women. Keep sifting. Go read NMMN again. Do not settle.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by Andrew
this isn't working and/or that you aren't ready for this level of a relationship
I guess this has been the most fascinating part. I felt TERRIFIED letting her into my home. At the same time, I'm glad I'm overcoming these hurdles with her instead of someone more likely to work out.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 08:25 PM
Well, and of course the "I've got to go!" business. Self-sabotage due to unreadiness. My XGF was afraid to touch many of my things when she lived there due to their "emotional weight". I may be unprepared for a great relationship but I'm more prepared than I've ever been. Kind people here pointing out problems has been incredibly helpful.

@kml - Totally agree with your "I would never have accepted that." I know from personal experience.

@R2C - I'm hesitant about NMMNG only because the first chapters felt misogynistic, something I've never felt reading your posts. I should read something on assertiveness for sure. wink
Originally Posted by CWarrior
@R2C - I'm hesitant about NMMNG only because the first chapters felt misogynistic, something I've never felt reading your posts. I should read something on assertiveness for sure. wink

I always enjoy looking up new words. My point about NMMNG is more about doing more personal growth work. NUTs or other "how a man should interact with women" books/videos etc. I really like to balance attraction and seduction with my lady.

I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. Everything is a learning experience. You and MsSunshine both need to have these experiences. You both have issues and the R shines light on them. You are fortunate to reflect on these experience with a group of people and can gain insight from others.

From my POV, you should just enjoy MsSunshine for who she is as a freind. If you are not good match, that is OK.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by Ginger
How can you break up if you aren’t a couple ?
I'm baffled by that one, too. By her count, I've broken up 1.5x, and she's broken up 0x.

Originally Posted by Ginger
This pecking thing is really weird
She said she considers short pecks romantic. I asked if she considered longer kisses or with tongue more passionate. She said no, kisses with tongue are just "aggressive". She scrunches up her face when she says "aggressive".

She says she's teaching me "normal kissing" and acts like I have a kissing fetish. She really wanted to drill down into why I believe longer kisses are important. I could improve, but my kissing technique is mostly on-point and I don't think 2-second kisses or making out is a fetish. I could probably accept this quirk if she were passionate in other ways.

And that's probably how to approach this. Are you open to trying making out? Are you open to trying sensual massage? Are you open to...? It's only going to work if it's mutually enjoyable, not if one of us is doing something to hang onto the other.
why? why do you have to negotiate all this at this stage of the game? why the investment? i don't understand. It seems so clear that you two do not click ...
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/09/21 11:26 PM
ps what happened to the 100 post per thread rule?
Posted By: DonH Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by Ginger1
My head is spinning.
OMG that’s the understatement of the year. This is F’ng craziness and dysfunction at it’s heifers form. CW this is just such foreign behavior i and others are seeing that I just can’t imagine it working over the LT. figuring out or diagnosing what’s going on is way beyond my pay grade but unless you get to a professional who can help you sort through this I can’t imagine you having a successful R with never mind Sunshine but with anyone. This is just not how healthy dating and R is done. Something is way way off with all of this.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
1/2-second PECK PECK. I asked for a good kiss. 1/2 second PECK PECK.

That's her method - some people aren't deep passionate kiss types. If it's a deal breaker for you, then the deal is off. Don't try to make someone into what you want. Accept them for what they are or let them go.
Every so often Andrew hits a home run with a comment and this one went deep into the seats. He’s exactly correct. Dating is supposed to have you decide if the other person is a match, is compatible, is a fit. It’s not to figure out how to change them into a match or fit. She is who she is. Either that’s a match or it’s not. Clearly in this case ITS NOT. So what are you trying to accomplish? You know 80% of her is not a match. What’s left to figure out? Like KML says, no harm, no foul, no need to try to spell it out - just tell her, we tried and it’s not a match. STOP already just stop. It shouid not be this hard to be with someone - EVER - let alone the first dates.

But then DO NOT DATE ANYONE ELSE until you get yourself figured out. The whole way you are going about this is going to bring you disaster and heartbreak. You have to find someone to help you sort this out. You’re not ready for a healthy R dude, you’re just not. This all seems normal to you because it’s familiar and what you’ve always known and done. But it’s not. Not even close. You need to learn what normal dating feels and looks like. This is not it!
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 11:34 AM
While I would have phrased it differently, I agree with DonH.

stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole ... you two are not compatible, period. Again, she is putting you down because your needs are different from hers - you have a kissing fetish? If anyone has a problem here it's her, not you. Stop this. Now.

The only reason I can think of for you to continue with what is clearly not a match is because (as Dr Phil would say) you're getting something out of this. Figure out what it is, exactly, that you are getting out of a mismatched relationship where the other party puts you down for expressing a different need. She does it with food, with sex, with I don't know what else.

Great, you've learned that you like seafood. Guess what my friend? You can find out things you like and dislike on your own or with friends. Go to a tasting at a restaurant. Buy one thing you've never tried every week when you go grocery shopping. You don't need someone else to experiment and grow. Or maybe you do? If so, why? Look at why you don't want to be alone.

I really think you need to close the book on Sunshine and open the book on CW. Spend some time with yourself, maybe go into therapy for a focused stint on learning about why you are attracted to crazy women or controlling women. Figure out how to set and maintain boundaries. Read ALL of Andrew's threads about his relationship with S ... S stood for Stalker, btw.

Just my two cents. Worth what you paid for it. The goal is a healthy relationship with another ... guess what doll, that begins with a healthy relationship with yourself. You can do this!
xo
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 01:15 PM
Ditto bttrfly and DonH...what they both said a gazillion times over.

Originally Posted by bttrfly
Great, you've learned that you like seafood. Guess what my friend? You can find out things you like and dislike on your own or with friends. Go to a tasting at a restaurant. Buy one thing you've never tried every week when you go grocery shopping. You don't need someone else to experiment and grow. Or maybe you do? If so, why? Look at why you don't want to be alone.
So much this! Listen, I was relatively picky when I was younger, but my tastes have changed since I have gotten older, but I never waited around for someone else to introduce me to things. I just tried them. And, guess what, I found out there are some things I didn't know I liked that I actually really like. Now, sure, sometimes I will try something mainly at Sparky's urging, but I get inspiration from all sorts of sources, some internal and some external. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad you discovered crab cakes and other seafood because you were totally missing out there, but when push comes to shove, is that really a reason to keep going down this road with someone who you have continued to pull back from and who makes you feel "some type of way" after every encounter and you have even said you think you are 80% NOT A MATCH (that one speaks the loudest to me).

Originally Posted by bttrfly
I really think you need to close the book on Sunshine and open the book on CW. Spend some time with yourself, maybe go into therapy for a focused stint on learning about why you are attracted to crazy women or controlling women. Figure out how to set and maintain boundaries. Read ALL of Andrew's threads about his relationship with S ... S stood for Stalker, btw.
Ditto bttrfly yet again. CW, you seem like a reasonably intelligent guy so I'm not sure why you are such a glutton for punishment, but as many others have said, at this stage in the game, things just should NOT be this difficult. There really is no reason at all, other than that Sunshine is playing games and trying to maintain control to mold you to exactly who she wants you to be, regardless of how you feel or what you want.

She thinks you have a kissing fetish because you want more than a peck? GTFO with that! She's controlling you and making you feel bad about something that you have no reason whatsoever to feel bad about. I'll make a confession here that is somewhat out of left field for me, because I usually try to keep really private things really private. But, for the sake of showing you how far off this particular thing is, I'll share with the class. Sparky was physically and emotionally abused as a child (not sexually) and as a result, he has a few "triggers" that are still present, though he has gone through extensive counseling and works really hard to keep them at bay. One of those triggers, based specifically on something that happened to him repeatedly as a child, is having his face touched or in any way feeling like his breath is being held (someone used to "punish" him by holding him down and holding their hands or a pillow or whatever over his face so that he couldn't breathe). So, long make-out sessions and deep, passionate kissing can be a little difficult for him sometimes. I love it and he enjoys it when he is out of his own head, but occasionally, when it is going on, he gets in his head and I can tell that he gets a little weirded out because he'll pull back or something, so we've had to have some serious conversations about the whole kissing thing and work through things so that he feels safe and good if we are doing it and we can both enjoy it. I let him take the lead on when he wants a deep passionate kiss vs when he wants a soft, shorter kiss. He is more than a peck guy all the time, but sometimes a shorter, no tongue kiss is more in his comfort zone and I'm ok with that because I understand where he's coming from. Now, I tell you all that to tell you that maybe she really isn't interested in those same deep, passionate kisses that you are, but that doesn't mean that you couldn't find a happy medium IF she weren't so controlling. The fact that she just shuts down your interest by saying kissing with tongue is aggressive and acting like you have a fetish because you like it are just straight up manipulation on her part. Maybe she has a past issue like Sparky does and if so, then she has to handle things how she has to handle them, but I just don't get the idea that it is the case. I honestly think she just wants things her way and she's going to do whatever she has to in order to accomplish that.

Really, let this one go and focus on you for awhile. You need to get your own self in order before you can have a positive, HEALTHY relationship.
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 01:39 PM
Even if she DOES have a past issue which is the explanation for her non-kissing fetish, the fact that she is not self-aware and projects blame onto you for it is the PROBLEM. So CW, don’t start thinking all rescue-y that you’ll work with her on this - don’t! Because she’s not working on it herself.

You’re not a fit, move on.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 01:58 PM
While I would have phrased it differently, I agree with DonH.

stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole ... you two are not compatible, period. Again, she is putting you down because your needs are different from hers - you have a kissing fetish? If anyone has a problem here it's her, not you. Stop this. Now.

The only reason I can think of for you to continue with what is clearly not a match is because (as Dr Phil would say) you're getting something out of this. Figure out what it is, exactly, that you are getting out of a mismatched relationship where the other party puts you down for expressing a different need. She does it with food, with sex, with I don't know what else.

Great, you've learned that you like seafood. Guess what my friend? You can find out things you like and dislike on your own or with friends. Go to a tasting at a restaurant. Buy one thing you've never tried every week when you go grocery shopping. You don't need someone else to experiment and grow. Or maybe you do? If so, why? Look at why you don't want to be alone.

I really think you need to close the book on Sunshine and open the book on CW. Spend some time with yourself, maybe go into therapy for a focused stint on learning about why you are attracted to crazy women or controlling women. Figure out how to set and maintain boundaries. Read ALL of Andrew's threads about his relationship with S ... S stood for Stalker, btw.

Just my two cents. Worth what you paid for it. The goal is a healthy relationship with another ... guess what doll, that begins with a healthy relationship with yourself. You can do this!
xo
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 02:37 PM
One thing I'm getting from this is it's revealing issues I didn't know I had.

I definitely am sensitive about my home. I'm more inclined to let strangers in than people I know well. I see some truth in what you said before, that the clutter and disorganization is like a shield around me, an excuse to keep people at a distance. Cleaned up "enough" I was still terrified to let Ms Sunshine in and almost broke-up instead of inviting her in. It was rewarding that Ms. Sunshine was immediately drawn to the bookshelves I'd decluttered. Can't wait to do more.

1) My XW never saw the inside of my home even though it was a big issue for her (we finally moved into a new place).

2) My XGF was rarely welcome the last 6 months we were together. She critiqued my home.

3) My parents, who I see annually, haven't been into my home for a decade. I hid important things when they visited.

4) I was an inch away from breaking up with Ms. Sunshine rather than inviting her in.

5) I stopped allowing my D's best friend's dad inside after he criticized an art book on my bookshelf.

6) My home was a turn-off for the 3 dates who visited it.

7) My home turned off an acquaintance who seemed into me before visiting.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 02:48 PM
I am starting to worry about our admin team who usually warns about thread limits. I'm not worried the universe will implode after 10 pages, more hoping they are doing okay. I will start a new thread today so they have one less thing to worry about. wink
Posted By: wayfarer Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 03:04 PM
Hey CW,

I don't really comment over here much because y'all seem to have it pretty much on lock with the balance of perspectives here, but I do come to check up on you. I just want to lead with Don would likely hate me in real life. I'm sure I wouldn't be a fan of his, but I cannot possible agree with him more. I wanted to physically high 5 him after reading that.

I've been watching you're life play out for quite some time and sitting back and waiting. And waiting and waiting. Bro...."It’s not to figure out how to change them into a match or fit. She is who she is. Either that’s a match or it’s not." This needs to be a mantra for you. Don literally could not have said it better. I have a whole tirade about this on Gecko's post on Newcomers. You cannot force a person to fit your check boxes CW. You are constantly trying to find that 100% match and when you like let's say 70ish% of them you either completely ignore the 30% that doesn't fit or you try and force the 30%.

Let's discuss your XGF. She met your intelligence, and athletic markers. But your kids couldn't live under the same roof. You, and still to this day I don't understand why, thought well we'll just date until the kids grow up and then we'll be together, together. WTF is that CW? That is not how blended families work. When you come into a relationship with kids it's a package. And XGF was just as much a package with her kids as you are with yours. Either your families learn to blend or it's a no go. Is it hard? Absolutely. Someone in the house has to be the grown up and lead the family regarding expectations and growing pains of blending families but neither of you were capable of that. And yet the two of you persisted. For what?? And then when that wasn't the hurdle you kept pushing and pushing to make this work when she treated you terribly.

Now Ms. Sunshine. She seems fine. She seems like she'd be really great for someone who isn't you. There's been some disconnects from the beginning. As I can see it that's kind of on both of you. Currently, I feel like it's more you than her. She kisses they way she kisses. You kiss they way you kiss. She like one thing. You like another thing. And while a lot of people seem to think this makes her crazy, excluding past behavior, I honestly think she's telling you you have a fetish because you're obsessing over the way she kisses instead of just accepting it or moving on. What I want to point out about this is your side here, because there's that weighty percentage that she meets your checkboxes you're trying to bend her to your will because you think that's progress. It's not. It's the flip side of the coin. Instead of ignoring you're essentially demanding she change to fit your desires. It doesn't work this way. None of this works that way.

No one will ever be a 100% match for you. No one. Because that's not how this works. There's a moment in The 5 Year Engagement where Jason Segal's character is talking to his parents and they are discussing his break up, and he says something to the effect of well we were great, she was great, but we weren't 100% perfect for each other. And his parents start laughing hysterically at him. His mom then says "Do you think your father and I are 100% perfect for each other? Ha. Absolutely not. Not even 80% perfect. H3ll not even 60%. But that isn't what love is about. If that's your person, that's your person and that's what makes you 100% perfect for each other." You keep telling me how you're relinquishing those check boxes and I don't think you are.

If a person meets some of your check boxes you should chat. Should the chatting go well, then wonderful, go on a date or two. If the chemistry is there and you still like taking to them keep going. If red flags pop up, back out. If you seem incompatible, give a few days or a week, if it seems to get worse not better, back out. You don't have to hold on if it isn't working. What you do have to do though is meet a person where they are at. People aren't supposed to change for you because you want them to. What if Ms. Sunshine was harping on how your long kisses gross her out, and brought it up every single time you tried for a long deep kiss? This is a two way street. The people you meet have to meet you where you're at too, and I'm sure you're not 100% perfect for every single lady who swipes right on you either. The goal here is to be a person who doesn't try to fall in love with potential but a person who falls in love with the person in front of them. The other goal is to accept that people aren't check boxes. I don't know how many time I have to say this. It's ok to have deal breakers. It's ok to have desired traits. It's not ok to think you're special enough that you get to play build a b*tch. A woman who gets you, who gets it, who enjoys your company, who makes you want to be the best you you can be that's what you want. And more than likely she's not going to fit all the other non-important check boxes you've created. More than likely she'll have different interests, and different opinions, and different tastes. The ideal one is one who has enough in common with you to get it, but has enough difference so that you can be and stay two separate happy people with fulfilling lives.

The other thing I can't possible agree with Don more on is you are not ready for this. You aren't ready to fall or date or be in a long term relationship with any one. Long term relationships are hard work. Falling in love is not. And if you're struggling to fall, it is not meant for you. If you're fighting to fall because you want it so badly, this is not the time. Walk away, not just from Ms. Sunshine but from dating.

Honestly I've been wanting to say this for a long time: CW get your house in order then date.

I mean that figuratively and literally. Get your house cleaned and decluttered. Get it in a state that you can maintain. Watch videos on making homes functional. Leaving things out that get used often that you normally wouldn't think to leave out, like brooms or vacuum cleaners. Getting rid of things you don't use. Or putting things away right away. Clean as you go techniques. There are tons of resources to help change your habits with this stuff. The other thing I want to bring up to you is my mental health. I have ADHD and as you know I suffer from clinical depression. Cleaning is really, really hard for me when my mental health is not ok. And even when it is good, I struggle because of the ADHD. It is all or nothing with me. I will clean one room for 5 hours ceiling to floor, or not at all. That's it. I have no middle mode. I try to have my kids help me with routine maintenance so I can stay on track. I deep clean every room once a month. They keep up with the minor upkeep. So far that's what works. You may need to find your own unconventional technique to find what works for you. But the other part of that is CW, have you noticed you're always moving? Like you can't stop moving, and you use active lifestyle and adventurous nature as a way to explain that, but like you couldn't even hang out and cuddle on the couch for a few hours with out getting weirded out. There are many ways depression manifests. Constant activity like a shark is one of the ways functional depression appears. Living off endorphins and sunshine. If you never stop moving you can't be left alone in your head. I mean maybe you're not depressed. Maybe you're avoidant. Maybe you're anxious. Maybe you have ADHD like me. I'm not sure. But if you live in clutter but you can find time to hike, bike, run, kayak, date, etc, it's not just a "cleaning isn't fun" or motivation issue. You're prioritizing those things for a reason. And I'm guessing just because they're more fun isn't it. I really think you should sit with that part for a little bit.

I hope you understand this is all coming from a caring place. And I'm sorry if it was a bit of an unload.

~way
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Even if she DOES have a past issue which is the explanation for her non-kissing fetish, the fact that she is not self-aware and projects blame onto you for it is the PROBLEM. So CW, don’t start thinking all rescue-y that you’ll work with her on this - don’t! Because she’s not working on it herself.

You’re not a fit, move on.

I agree, kml! In telling my story, I may have muddied my own waters, because what I was actually trying to say was that it is possible for couples to have different kissing styles and be ok, but for her to insist his is a fetish just seems manipulative to me. And, yes, for sure, I didn't mean to imply that even if she does have some secret issue from her past, that is NO reason for her to put it on CW. Sparky doesn't put his on me, we work through it together. I certainly don't think this is an issue to work through, though, with CW and Sunshine. I think they just plain don't fit.

Wayfair offered some EXCELLENT comments and I can't even add to them because it was so spot on accurate. What I will say about the whole house organizing thing, though.....I have mentioned before that we have a couple of spare bedrooms in our house that are full of stuff that belonged to Sparky's grandparents that never got dealt with after they passed and we just close those doors and ignore it, but it is starting to weigh on both of us and we know that if we could get those rooms cleaned out and "decorate" them and put them into a different function other than storage for dead peoples' stuff, we would feel more comfortable so to that end, we have been working on both rooms, pulling stuff out and going through it. Some days we get a good bit of stuff done, other days we go through a drawer or 2 and call it good, but in the next few months, particularly as it gets cooler and it gets dark out earlier, we'll spend more time and our overall goal is to have them completely cleaned out by Jan. 1 so that when the new year rolls around, we can start redecorating and actually purposing them for what we want them for: one room will be an actual spare/guest bedroom with a bedroom suite that Sparky wants to keep because it is an antique that belonged to his great grandparents and the other will be an office/craft/game room with a tv, Sparky's old game system, a futon or sofa bed to pull out if we have even more guests, and other assorted entertainment opportunities (probably even a few toys so grandkids can go in there and play when they visit). I am fully aware, as is Sparky, that when we have cluttered rooms or areas in our home, we both feel more dragged down by it as opposed to when we have everything cleaned up and put away. This weekend, I'm finishing up organizing our bedroom and actually, finally, hanging pictures that have been sitting in the closet for awhile. It's a work in progress, but it is something you can totally do in short bursts in amongst your other fitness activities. I do think, though, that several have pointed out that you should focus on all that FIRST before trying to date or fit in so many other activities because if you can get your house in order, you'll feel more put together yourself.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I just want to lead with Don would likely hate me in real life. I'm sure I wouldn't be a fan of his, but I cannot possible agree with him more. I wanted to physically high 5 him after reading that.

Pretty sure you both live in Wisconsin. You two should meet up. I'll fly in to referee it.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
And while a lot of people seem to think this makes her crazy, excluding past behavior, I honestly think she's telling you you have a fetish because you're obsessing over the way she kisses instead of just accepting it or moving on. What I want to point out about this is your side here, because there's that weighty percentage that she meets your checkboxes you're trying to bend her to your will because you think that's progress.
I have been saying from day one they both should be running in the opposite direction.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
It's not ok to think you're special enough that you get to play build a b*tch.
Spit my coffee!!!

Originally Posted by wayfarer
The other thing I can't possible agree with Don more on is you are not ready for this. You aren't ready to fall or date or be in a long term relationship with any one. Honestly I've been wanting to say this for a long time: CW get your house in order then date.
100%
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 03:52 PM
Hi Wayfarer,

I wanted to quickly say I really appreciate your perspective and you make some good points.

Originally Posted by Wayfarer
I honestly think she's telling you you have a fetish because you're obsessing over the way she kisses instead of just accepting it or moving on. What if Ms. Sunshine was harping on how your long kisses gross her out, and brought it up every single time you tried for a long deep kiss? This is a two way street.
Ha! Yes. First, I broke up over it but relented based on her interest and wanting to know why. Second, after a great date BUT for that I brought it up as a serious issue to negotiate. Neither of those played out well.

My instinct that our kissing styles weren't a match was spot on. If it was a dealbreaker or the dates weren't fun, I should've stuck to my guns and broke-up. If it was a seeming incompatibility but otherwise I was having fun, I should've expressed my interests--"I like longer kisses" or "Would you be open to trying a longer kiss?" or "Longer kisses are important to me." and given it a few dates and see what rolled. I get my approach has added drama and made us both feel less safe.

When I said I'm 80% sure we're not a match, I feel an emotional and intellectual connection, and I love her romantic and adventurous sides, but I don't enjoy quiet evenings together and the physical side is unsatisfying. This week is her birthday and we have 2 dates planned--one a quiet evening, the other a booked overnight adventure. I don't intend to cancel these.

If I read you correctly, TheWayfererWay(tm) would be to stop negotiating for her to do her kissing style vs. my kissing style. We know each other's preferences. Better is to be playful and exploratory in other ways and see where we do and do not have common ground, e.g. how we spend our quiet evening. Remember I control me. "No, I don't want to do A or B." Be open. "I'm willing to try C." Express my interests "I like a, b, or c." Maybe we match, maybe not, and either is okay!
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 03:59 PM
Honest question , CW. How do your kids feel about the state of your/ their home?

When living in the state in which you describe your home, do you think perhaps it’s difficult for your kids to sit down and concentrate on their school work? I know when my home is cluttered, I have difficulty concentrating on important stuff. My child needs an organized area to concentrate too.
Have you asked them about your shared space and how it makes them feel? What they would like to see happen and how you could all come together and make that happen?
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Ginger
Honest question , CW. How do your kids feel about the state of your/ their home?
Zing! That question stings.

To be clear, the kml approach of boxing up the clutter was a success and the house is "clean". I had a male acquaintance over for an hour and he didn't notice anything out of order. Ms Sunshine's biggest comment was I had a curtain across a window instead of blinds. I told her a half-truth--that the blinds allowed too much light in, in the TV room.

The blinds are partly broken and expensive to replace. The curtain also hides the backyard which is in terrible shape. A year ago my backyard was a place of calm and full of roses and fruits and vegetables.

The problems are hidden. When my D wants a cup/glass of water, she has to ask me to clean one. When my D wants a snack, she asks me what's safe to eat and to clean a pot, bowl, and spoon. When she feels her clothes are getting gross she reminds me to wash them, but she's also a bit afraid to, because some things that go into the garage are never seen again.

The dishwasher is broken. Anyone replacing it would come through the garage and I can't have anyone in the garage until it's in better shape for fear they'd report violations. I've boxed/disposed of about half of my garage but the other half remains. Once that gets done I can work on the "underlying issues". I've bought the parts to do that.

It's a work in progress, I'm making progress every few days and plan on more this weekend.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 04:32 PM
priorities .... the house
not Sunshine
Do you think breaking up after her birthday will make it sting less than if you're more honest now?

Do you even want to break up?

What are you really getting out of this, other than not having to work on yourself more directly?
Posted By: DonH Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
This week is her birthday and we have 2 dates planned--one a quiet evening, the other a booked overnight adventure. I don't intend to cancel these.
OMG (face palm) this is turning into insanity - dysfunction at the very least bordering on insanity. You just are not hearing or certainly not comprehending what nearly all of us - about 10 rather different people and personalities are trying to tell you.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
If I read you correctly, TheWayfererWay(tm) would be to stop negotiating for her to do her kissing style vs. my kissing style. We know each other's preferences. Better is to be playful and exploratory in other ways and see where we do and do not have common ground!
NO NO NO. That is NOT what Wafer is saying nor the rest of us. We are saying word for word STOP DATING SUNSHINE. What part of that do you not want to hear or even react to. We are all saying this. Why are you not hearing it? Beyond that half of us or more are saying you should not be dating ANYONE right now. Why are you not hearing us? Do you have to take our advice? Absolutely not. But to ignore it, not even consider it, let alone not even acknowledging it is rude at the least and honestly just wasting everyone’s time.

Do you even want our help and input? Many have writen detailed posts yet you are hell bent on continuing with her and think it’s all about how to handle different kissing styles. Not one person has suggested continuing this with sunshine. Not one - or if they have I missed it and please correct me. This is crazy.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Butterfly
priorities .... the house
not Sunshine
Truth. I'm going to prioritize this weekend decluttering and stocking my D's study space.

Originally Posted by Butterfly
Do you think breaking up after her birthday will make it sting less than if you're more honest now?

Do you even want to break up?
80% certain. A couple more dates will give me more clarity.

Originally Posted by Butterfly
What are you really getting out of this, other than not having to work on yourself more directly?
Will think more on this. I did enjoy a 45-minute chat with her last night including playing two songs for me and sweet messages this morning. The emotional connection, romance, and companionship? I saw an acquaintance and close friend yesterday, and am off to see another now, so I no longer look to dates to fully fulfill that role, but it's a pleasant addition.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by Ginger
Honest question , CW. How do your kids feel about the state of your/ their home?
Zing! That question stings.

To be clear, the kml approach of boxing up the clutter was a success and the house is "clean". I had a male acquaintance over for an hour and he didn't notice anything out of order. Ms Sunshine's biggest comment was I had a curtain across a window instead of blinds. I told her a half-truth--that the blinds allowed too much light in, in the TV room.

The blinds are partly broken and expensive to replace. The curtain also hides the backyard which is in terrible shape. A year ago my backyard was a place of calm and full of roses and fruits and vegetables.

The problems are hidden. When my D wants a cup/glass of water, she has to ask me to clean one. When my D wants a snack, she asks me what's safe to eat and to clean a pot, bowl, and spoon. When she feels her clothes are getting gross she reminds me to wash them, but she's also a bit afraid to, because some things that go into the garage are never seen again.

The dishwasher is broken. Anyone replacing it would come through the garage and I can't have anyone in the garage until it's in better shape for fear they'd report violations. I've boxed/disposed of about half of my garage but the other half remains. Once that gets done I can work on the "underlying issues". I've bought the parts to do that.

It's a work in progress, I'm making progress every few days and plan on more this weekend.

CW, it’s not hidden. That is not healthy for your daughter. Her clothes should never get “gross” and she shouldn’t be afraid to ask them to be washed. Also, she should know how to wash her own clothes and take that initiative. She should be able to go in her own kitchen and grab a clean glass or be able to wash one to use. She shouldn’t have to ask what’s “safe to eat” this is anxiety building for a kid! A kid should go in their kitchen, help themselves, and have clean clothes.

I know you are trying hard. But I can’t possibly imagine how you can focus on anything of this very very important stuff while you are kn a roller coaster with a new woman trying to fit a square peg kn a round hole. I wouldn’t be able to give the time needed to a house that needs a lot of work, my job, and my kids while trying to navigate a relationship that tumultuous in the very beginning .
Posted By: wayfarer Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by DonH
NO NO NO. That is NOT what Wafer is saying nor the rest of us. We are saying word for word STOP DATING SUNSHINE. What part of that do you not want to hear or even react to. We are all saying this. Why are you not hearing it? Beyond that half of us or more are saying you should not be dating ANYONE right now. Why are you not hearing us? Do you have to take our advice? Absolutely not. But to ignore it, not even consider it, let alone not even acknowledging it is rude at the least and honestly just wasting everyone’s time.

Do you even want our help and input? Many have writen detailed posts yet you are hell bent on continuing with her and think it’s all about how to handle different kissing styles. Not one person has suggested continuing this with sunshine. Not one - or if they have I missed it and please correct me. This is crazy.

We will never agree politically but we are very much seeing eye to eye on this and that should tell you something CW.

I genuinely don't understand why you can't seem to get on board. Why would you string this woman along? This isn't just crazy it's cruel. If you don't think it's going to work out stop wasting her time and yours.

Please, please understand what I'm saying. I'm saying stop dating. Get your house and life in order. Stop with the adventures, and women, and anything else that isn't bringing money and stability to your children, and do nothing but get your house and life in order. Even at my most depressed can't shower, barely leaving my bed unless it was necessary, isolating, deep depression my kids always had clean, clothes, they always had food to eat, fresh fruits and veggies, snacks, meals they could make or meals I would actually make. You couldn't see the top of my desk, dinning room table, or my dresser, but they had plates and cups

Listen, here's just one tip. It's not great for the environment, but it's what needs to be done. As long as the dishwasher is broken paper and plastics only. Buy paper plates, paper bowls. Plastic cups and plastic cutlery. And get a sharpie. Mark the cups with names and dates so the kids don't use 50 in a day and so you know they can be tossed after 24 hours. Then all you have are pots and pans from cooking One, two max 3 dishes per day to wash.

Second make a path to the washer and dryer. Make sure it's safe and well lit just from the house to the laundry. That's it. Show your kids how everything works. Help them clean all their clothes. And after that they're on their own, you're job is to make sure they can do the job.

This is not ok CW. This is not ok for you. It's not ok for your kids. It's not shameful. It's not wrong. But this is unhealthy and you need to mitigate it now. Nothing else should matter other than what I said above. If it isn't contributing money or stability to your household it all goes on the backburner until you get your life together. Adventures should be your reward system. Not your avoidance technique.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: I'm Going To Stop Being Disorganized II - 09/10/21 11:13 PM
New Thread -
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