Let's see if we can make this thread last a bit longer than the last two.
Last thread - And now another special feature
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906212&page=1[LION]
If I were King of the Forest
Not queen, not duke, not prince
My regal robes of the forest
Would be satin, not cotton, not chintz
I'd command each thing, be it fish or fowl
With a ruff and a ruff and a royal growl - woof
As I'd click my heel, all the trees would kneel!
And the mountains bow and the bulls kowtow!
And the sparrow would take wing
If I, if I, were King!
Each rabbit would show respect to me
The chipmunks genuflect to me
Though my tail would lash, I would show compash
For every underling!
If I, If I, were King!
Just King!
[DOROTHY, SCARECROW, & TIN MAN]
Each rabbit would show respect to him
The chipmunks genuflect to him
[SCARECROW]
And his wife would be queen of the mane
[LION]
And I'll be monarch
Of all I survey
Monarch
Of all I survey
Mo--na-a-a--a-arch
Ah, shucks
Monarch
Of all I survey!
[DOROTHY]
Your Majesty, If you were King, you wouldn't be afraid of anything?
[LION]
Not nobody, not nohow!
[TIN MAN]
Not even a rhinocerous?
[LION]
Imposserous!
[DOROTHY]
How about a hippopotamus?
[LION]
Why, I'd trash him from top to bottomamus!
[DOROTHY]
Supposin' you met an elephant?
[LION]
I'd wrap him up in cellophant!
[SCARECROW]
What if it were a brontosaurus?
[LION]
I'd show him who was King of the Forest!
[DOROTHY, TIN MAN, & SCARECROW]
How?
[LION]
How?
Courage! What makes a King out of a slave?
Courage! What makes the flag on the mast to wave?
Courage! What makes the elephant charge his tusk, in the misty mist or the dusky dusk?
What makes the muskrat guard his musk?
Courage! What makes the sphinx the seventh wonder?
Courage! What makes the dawn come up like thunder?
Courage! What makes the Hottentot so hot? What puts the "ape" in apricot?
What have they got that I ain't got?
[DOROTHY, TIN MAN, & SCARECROW]
Courage!
[LION]
You can say that again!
I'm still a wuss who can't make a decision in his own best interest / an empathic soul who doesn't wish to hurt anyone.
That may be, but how can you really expect to have a healthy R with S or anyone else of you lie to them? You were asked if you wanted S to move out and you said no. That is a lie. You are lying to S. But you are doing it under the guise of not hurting anyone. But isn’t lying to someone going to hurt them? It clearly would hurt you as you told S that you needed honesty from her. Doesn’t that need to start with honesty from you?
Sigh - this shouldn't be this hard.
No, no, it should not be - especially only a year in and less than 6 months in living together. It it’s this hard now, and knowing what you now know, is this really how you want to live the rest of your life? You could very easily live another 20 or 25 years. It would not be too far fetched to live another 30 or even 35 years into your 90s. Is this really how you want to live it?
You want her to be the bad guy here. You want her to do what you for whatever reason cannot or will not. Again, is that what you call, “being an empathic soul who doesn’t hurt anyone?” Are you even being fair to S? I’d be far more upset and hurt if my partner gaslit me be refusing to acknowledge what I was nearly certain was true. I’m pretty sure that’s not being empathic or honest - it’s making yourself feel better, at S’s expense.
Don made an excellent post. All that he said.
You aren’t being fair to her. You aren’t protecting her feelings. You are protecting your own.
A woman knows. And you keep lying and delaying the inevitable and in her gut she knows you don’t want her there anymore.
Don’t go on the premise of thinking you are being an altruistic empath. You aren’t doing her any favors. You are only going to cause her more pain.
Time to really put your big boy pants on and stop lying and be completely honest.
One day S may end up on Newcomers.
Her relationship has ended, but she’s confused. She can’t understand...she asked her man if he wanted her to leave and he said no.
Heck, he even told her he will miss her smooches when she’s not there.
I don’t have much time for S, but she deserves the truth.
You told us that your ex sent you a loving birthday card/valentines/Christmas, can’t remember which and still held hands with you just before she left.
You, I and everyone else here understands the confusion of these mixed messages.
It’s cruel Andrew....please stop sending them.
I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. Now we could call this self-justification if we want - the Wikipedia article on the phrase is helpful to me as it does describe one view of how I'm struggling with all of this and does slant it from a point of view that I think is important for me to explore. It's said that every biography has an obvious hero and I need to keep careful watch on myself to ensure that I'm not in fact a villain which I certainly feel like.
One option which appears to be the consensus both here and with my friends was to drop it on her like a bomb and tell her "don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya".
Instead I've struggled with this, "knowing" what the right choice for me is. Talked to S about that I'm unhappy. We've fought and argued and hugged and cried together. Said that I want to explore ways to see if this could work and followed through on that. Knowing that I need to do a lot more and follow through on enunciating how and why I am unhappy. Giving her a chance to see if this is working for her too.
I'm not cheating. I'm not hiding anything. I'm not running off for wild adventures (spatula city is too far under current conditions).
A favourite author who I quote probably far too often usually has a line that helps form my thoughts
Something Vimes had learned as a young guard drifted up from memory. If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat.
They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.
So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.
It was a decently good day yesterday. S and I went over the budget and she did expose a bit that she has indeed been setting money aside. Her justification was a bit thin but "whatever". I didn't ask for details and she didn't give any - just that there might be some more money out there if needed.
I did make it clear how much money was coming in, how much was budgeted and exactly what the shortfall was - which is a chunk less than her monthly surplus.
She talked about the settling of her Dad's estate. He had a decent savings account so there's no worry about short term bills. S did comment on how things are now so very uncertain for her and that she doesn't know if for example she should get rid of her Dad's couch because she might need one. But in a more matter-of-fact tone which I just accepted as "yes - this is our reality currently". She does go into a spiral because she is pretty sure that her portion of the estate is not enough to buy a house on her own. According to my math though it would be about 12 years of rent money on a decent apartment if she chose to go that route. We talked about her loan and she still doesn't understand how I think about debt. To her credit cards are things that carry a balance and you budget the payments. Instead I pull money out of savings, the chequing overdraft and carry no credit card debt. I think she "sort-of" gets it especially now that she herself has a fully paid of credit card that is remaining paid off.
We also talked about how we've been buying groceries that we don't need. She agreed that she has a "scarcity" mentality but tries to justify that by saying that we need to have enough food for over a month in the house. My counter to that is that we shouldn't own any food that isn't used within 3 months. We did both agree - I had to nudge - to both reduce our "pocket money" fairly substantially. I know that I've been running a surplus and she's been using her's as a separate savings account I think rather than to cover regular out of pocket expenses.
It is perhaps telling that her first concern isn't so much with her heart but with her living conditions and the need for a couch. A much more practical perspective than might be imagined if you think too much about it that may be based on her past experience or might be just a closer view of the reality of the person she actually is rather than the person she thinks she is.
I made a roast pork loin for dinner with butternut squash and a gluten-free pumpkin loaf made with one of the decorative pumpkins we had which was well appreciated.
Busy week this week. S is off shortly for a movie shoot which she's uncomfortable about because it does take her into the City. She's got perhaps 2 lines on some independent thing that her ex-h and daughter are in. I expect that they needed another body and unilaterally decided that she would do it. She's going to go from there to her Dad's place where she has a meeting with the lawyer. She'll probably be back sometime on Wednesday, baby-sitting her grandson on Thursday. S13 might be coming back on Wednesday too. That's rather up in the air.
I have my flu shot and a doctor's appointment today where he's going to review the results of my pulmonary test. We have a layer of snow on the ground and so it's time to put out the bird feeder again. I still get a lot of chest pain regularly that mimics what I believe angina pain to be so hopefully we can get some actual answers.
Thanks all for the kicking and caring.
I have started and deleted this post several times now because I kept starting with something along the lines of "I don't want to pile on and be negative", but then that is exactly what I'm doing so I might as well own it. I agree with what everyone said before me. Andrew, you know you are ready to end this R and you do not want to be the "bad guy" and actually pull the trigger so to speak, so you are waiting for S to do it for you. Honey, she GAVE YOU the out and you STILL DIDN'T TAKE IT. You say she straight up asked if you wanted her to move out and you "prevaricated". Man, if that isn't a $10 word for lied I don't know what is.
I get it, Andrew...you don't want to hurt her, but you say yourself that it must hurt her knowing that you had an enjoyable time when she was out of the house. So, you tell me, which hurt is worse: being honest and both of you hurting now because you know the relationship is ending or pretending that you are going to work on it and that things will somehow miraculously get better because she keeps SAYING she'll change (without offering any actual action to implement change) and then ending it a few months down the road for the same reasons that you want to end it now, but are too scared to?
What Westo said above really stuck a chord with me: "I don't have much time for S, but she deserves the truth." Ditto Westo! I couldn't have said it better. I'm not a mean or cruel person so I don't like to see people hurt just for the sake of hurting them, but Andrew, S is a manipulator. She has you right where she wants you and you both know it. She is playing a game with you and I guarantee you she is better at it than you are. She asked you if you wanted her to leave because she knew you wouldn't say yes to her face. She also knows, because it has happened before, that she could make promises of doing better without actually doing a darn thing and you would fall in line.
The other thing that stood out to me in both of your posts was how casual she is in both using you and defying your wishes. She came home late and had a big order at the café to pick up. Why didn't she stop and get it? What if there hadn't been money in the jar? She expected you to pay for it, so that is why she had you pick it up. The McDonalds thing....not sure when that happened without going back to look, but she and S18 wanted it and despite the fact that you don't eat McDonalds, you went and picked it up and likely paid for that as well. She couldn't go do it herself? Andrew, I live in a VERY small, rural town and there are no McDonalds, but the town where I work, which is a little larger, but still rather small by most standards, has TWO McDonalds. My point is that, one might assume there is at least one somewhere near you that she could have easily driven herself to. And, if she is so high on being gluten free and all that, how is she eating McDonalds anyway? I dare say that while there may be a few gluten-free options, if that were an issue for me, McDonalds would not be my go to. The carpet shampooer thing....come on now, seriously? She has no money, relies on you to pay for everything, doesn't contribute her fair share to the bills, even based on whatever budgeting you all did in the beginning and hides her money from you and now all of a sudden she goes and buys a shampooer? That seems like a very odd purchase to me, particularly when you say at one point that she brought home shoes from her dad's because S18 is in desperate need. Sparky and I don't have a lot of money, but I can assure you that if given the choice between a shampooer and someone needing a pair of shoes, we would definitely buy the shoes first. Doesn't that scream bad with money, impulsive, non-practical? I mean, sure, it will be nice to have, but really, how often will it be used? And, someone pointed out on your last thread before it closed (don't remember who...sorry) that the machine won't use itself, but if S is so tired, sore, etc. that she can't even wash dishes and put food away, how is she going to move furniture around and shampoo a rug. Those machines are a little heavy and cumbersome to operate. They don't just push easily like a vacuum. And, while I'm on this roll, you say she got upset about your complaining about her and her kids not doing anything. Who are you complaining to that is telling her you are complaining? You need to pick different confidantes if your current ones are running and telling her everything you said. And, as someone else pointed out, if she doesn't like your complaints, maybe she should do something to fix that. But, that would require ACTIONS and we know that she is a woman of words and not actions.
Andrew, honestly, reading your recent posts (and I'm not just talking about the ones from this weekend) absolutely break my heart for you. You are a kind, caring, loving, generous man. The light, breezy, humorous Andrew is slipping away and you are losing yourself in this chaos that S brings. Please listen to what everyone is saying and take it to heart. I get that it isn't easy and you don't want to hurt S but in not being honest with her, you may hurt her even more in the long run. You cannot sustain the life you have now. Something has to give, Andrew...something besides you!
Andrew,
I am glad you had a nice chat w/S concerning the bills, money, etc. However, I think she may have listened then, but it also may now have gone out the other ear. From what you written over the last few months, I just get the impression that these types of talks do not "stick" w/her. In fact, I think she becomes "tone deaf" and out the other ear once you have aired your concerns. You have to remember...she has lived on her own for a long time and survived on whatever she had coming in...hence, she doesn't get what you are attempting to talk to her about. She doesn't get it when it comes to shopping for food that needs to be used in a month or so. She doesn't get it that you don't hold on to things that are over and above 3 years or more. She doesn't get it that you don't bring home stuff that you aren't going to use in a period of time. She doesn't get it that you should attempt to pay off your loans and credit cards within a reasonable period of time and she is going to continue to do her impulse shopping. She just doesn't get the concept of living within a budget and you shouldn't expect someone else to pick up your tab when you order food that the golden goose doesn't eat.
Andrew, I do think that in the back of S's mind, she is planning to move, i.e., the comment about the couch. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she finds a way to work a deal w/her sibling and move into her father's home. She likes the area and the home is convenient for her and the kids. I don't see her pushing for the divorce that should have been done months ago. I just don't see her situation changing at all. In fact, it benefits her to say married, i.e., the insurance and live w/you and yes, sponge off of you until you've truly had enough or until she finds a goose that lays even bigger golden eggs.
BTW, I do hope that S is working w/her sibling on what needs to be done w/the house, the furniture, the car and the expenses. She shouldn't be doing all of this by herself. Her sibling may want some of the furniture as well as other things. She may be the executor, but she also has a sibling that should have his/her input into what needs to be done.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh today, but I am basing my opinions on what you post. You have been more than kind, considerate and patient w/her and her clan. It's time to make that list of pros and cons that I suggested a while back and then make a decision. Trust us, it's not going to get better. Sure, she'll say it will, and she will try for a wee bit, but leopards do not change their spots and she's lived like this for a very long time and some habits are very difficult to break, especially hoarding and impulsive spending.
I honestly hope that I am wrong about your situation and I will be the first to apologize if she truly manages to stay the course of change.
I don't really understand how a chunk of money that would provide 12 years of rent is not enough to buy a home. Granted, it might not be a house, it might be a small condo somewhere, but it seems to me that there must be somewhere she could buy with that kind of money. I'm assuming rent of at least 1,000 a month, 12 years is $144,000. Not a huge amount but wouldn't that buy her a small place in some rural area? Or a big down payment on a place for her daughter with a granny flat for her? Or a place with a small mortgage payment for the rest?
Either way, she's not penniless and won't be on the streets if you break up - that's good.
I imagine, from your statement about her approach to credit, that she's not volunteering to pay off the consolidation loan?
The couch question is precisely why I said a while ago, it's not fair to HER to not let her know what you're thinking, as she has to make financial decisions based on what she thinks the future with you will be or not. She SHOULDN'T sell her dad's furniture if she's going to need it when she moves out.
For those playing along on the home game ...
Just got back from the doctor's office. My pulmonary results are fine. He wanted to listen to my lungs himself and they are fine.
He's going to have me try a steroid inhaler in case this is asthma and if that doesn't work he's going to check my GI. If that doesn't work he's thinking panic attacks. Which to be frank are a real possibility. The attacks have certainly gotten more regular and stronger in the past year and past attacks could be over-exertion or panic. High stress does seem to be a factor and has been - generally - consistent. There is a lot more stress in my life in the past year or so. Which was absolutely not the plan and I don't think we can pin this exclusively on the pandemic.
If it is panic attacks then the question comes on how to best manage that. Removing the source of panic is certainly one thing to consider.
The medications for that are things that I really would rather not be involved with. In the past I've self-medicated with a cold beer and a sit in a quiet place but that's not an option any more.
I've let S know the basics and my kids know the greater detail via messages.
Acid reflux can also cause esophageal spasm, which can feel like a heart attack.
An Apple watch or the inexpensive Kardia mobile is an easy way to check a rhythm strip for arrythmias (new slightly more expensive version of Kardia will actually do an EKG).
And yes, removing stress from your life is beneficial.
For those playing along on the home game ...
Just got back from the doctor's office. My pulmonary results are fine. He wanted to listen to my lungs himself and they are fine.
He's going to have me try a steroid inhaler in case this is asthma and if that doesn't work he's going to check my GI. If that doesn't work he's thinking panic attacks. Which to be frank are a real possibility. The attacks have certainly gotten more regular and stronger in the past year and past attacks could be over-exertion or panic. High stress does seem to be a factor and has been - generally - consistent. There is a lot more stress in my life in the past year or so. Which was absolutely not the plan and I don't think we can pin this exclusively on the pandemic.
If it is panic attacks then the question comes on how to best manage that. Removing the source of panic is certainly one thing to consider.
The medications for that are things that I really would rather not be involved with. In the past I've self-medicated with a cold beer and a sit in a quiet place but that's not an option any more.
I've let S know the basics and my kids know the greater detail via messages.
Well, that’s a definite tick in the negative column box and, in my opinion, the most important tick.
Your health is suffering with all the stress that S and her brood have brought to your life. Not only physically but mentally too.
If that doesn’t put a firework up your @rse, I don’t know what will!
Westo,
I about died laughing at your last sentence. Well, it's surely obvious to one and all that these issues have gotten much worse in the last year...wonder why????? Well, let's face it, his son moved out (a very wise decision on his part), the "girls" have been moved out, two new cats, a dog, several bunnies and a hamster have moved in. Can you just imagine that many animals living in one household? Now, let's not forget S, S13 were originally to move in and then S18 came along as well. Sunday dinners were beginning to look like her other family members were going to make it a routine to come for Sunday dinner. Now, let's focus on the kitchen, leaving food out, dirty dishes, etc. and then move on to the dining table being piled up and then the living home with stuff lying around and boxes...oh, yeah, let's not forget the laundry room...piled up and the garage is in the same shape.
Is it any wonder that Andrew is having issues w/his health? If the above paragraph doesn't pin the tale on the donkey...nothing will.
Andrew, I couldn't live in those conditions. I would have many sleepless nights thinking about all of that and I know my health would be affected, especially if I have been use to having a clean home and one that smells heavenly not like 4 legged animals and their coops not being cleaned periodically throughout the 24 hour period of the day.
No, my man, something has to give and that means in order to get you feeling better, you need to make some decisions, i.e., either you accept that this situation that is currently going on in YOUR home will continue or you need to tell S that she has "x" number of months to find a place and move everything that she brought with her out of your house. You will then need to get your home cleaned and that means opening the windows and allowing the fresh air to come in and cleanse the place of the animal odors.
Winter is coming and from the looks of it, it is going to be a dark winter for you if you don't dig deep for that courage and tell her HONTESTLY that she's got to go. There's no way of working around this. She has a place to go, even if it is temporary and yes, those animals all need to go w/her and her two boys.
BTW, need to advise the other young lady that if she doesn't come by the end of November and pick up what is remaining of her stuff, you are going to sit it out on the street and put a "free" sign on it. Time to take back your house and get yourself back on track w/your health.
Blargh - let's hope that all the bad luck and karma has descended on me and the rest of North America will have a nice quiet day.
Couldn't fall asleep last night until about 2:00 am. Up at 6. S left the dog when she left yesterday morning and it relieved itself in the middle of the rug probably because she wasn't in with me. I think the dog is very not happy these days. She's lost a lot of bounce lately. She was very fond of "grandpa" and with all the location changes, stress here and other turmoil it's not a huge surprise. She's snoozing on the couch next to me in the office right now.
I messaged S around midnight knowing she was up that I was tossing and turning with lots spinning through my head without giving specifics. I would imagine that she knows at least part of what is causing me to not sleep. I'd like it to stay top of mind that we have issues we need to work through one way or another. She responded that I should turn off my brain and just imagine her there with me. Didn't help for some reason.
I'm worried about S18. He's well aware that something isn't right between his mother and I. I don't know if she's talked to him or not but I doubt it. He knows that I had my doctor's appointment yesterday plus a bunch of prior appointments to try to figure out my chest pains and I did let him know what the doctor suggested as possibly my issue being asthma or panic attacks. Given his own issues with anxiety he understands how that can happen. I'd rather him have accurate knowledge then do his own speculation and worst case scenarios. Knowing that I'm not going to - as has been said - "pop my clogs" is I would expect helpful.
He was telling me again yesterday on how I seem to handle things so much better than any of S's past partners. He also talked a lot about his resentment of his mother and siblings on how it feels to him that a lot of the load gets dumped on him and they all get off with making messes and not doing any work. He has clear memories as a 5 year-old of being responsible for all sorts of chores and tasks while his other siblings did nothing but make things worse and got away with it. The reality is perhaps slightly different but possibly not a lot. S does rely on him for a "lot" and he and his oldest sister always have been her core chore-monkeys.
He repeated multiple times, like he has for the last few weeks that "it's going to get better" as far as the clutter and mess goes here. I did tell him that I've really noticed him stepping up and being more responsible for taking care of things and we talked for a long time about pride, respecting ourselves, our house-mates and our environment and Don Quixote among other things. He was very clear that while he doesn't feel that for himself that taking care of himself or his surroundings is important that he feels that since this is "Andrew's house" that he needs to treat the environment with a lot more respect than otherwise. I worked on telling him that he was very capable and that while I was in no way his "Dad" that I will be supportive. He offered to take on the cleaning of the cat-boxes from me and I told him that what I "really" needed is for the others in the house to do the things that I'm NOT doing as there is lots and lots that needs to be done.
He already has a lot of issues with not respecting his mother that are very deeply rooted. And to be frank, have quite a bit of justification. On the one hand he may well start encouraging her to do better. He has a very clear picture of where he thinks she is coming up short from a house-keeping point of view. Not being accountable, leaving things to be done by others is only part of it. He lacks the tools to be supportive vs antagonistic though I think. On the one hand I hope that he doesn't take it out on his mother but on the other hand another voice encouraging her to step up and take responsibility would certainly be helpful.
I know that this is not an issue that S18 should be wrapped up in. But he is. He wants good things for everyone around him despite not having a lot of respect for himself. His suicidal urges from last year I hope are a thing of the past but he is still on a very long road out of that deep pit. I am somewhat stuck with something that I want to "fix" but am completely unable to do. I can't pretend that I'm happy with the way that the house and other things are going and so do my best to make sure that none of it sticks to him although some certainly does and he is very well aware of it.
Well - back to dealing with the chaos. We had a supplier come in late yesterday instead of this morning as scheduled, I have some containers that seem to have gone "walk-a-bout", the computer systems all crashed at 11:30 last night and I had to sort that all out remotely when I noticed this morning so that the company can function, I'm worried about some rush orders that I'm expecting, blah de blah de blah. When I couldn't sleep last night a favourite artist that I support on Patreon was doing one his regular give-aways and since he lives on the West coast, I'm never the first to respond. Missed it by about 4 minutes. And on a sketch I really would have liked.
One day at a time.
S18 and I are going to have steak and potato wedges for dinner again tonight. S18 is going to make the potatoes. He really likes them and if he learns that (it's dead simple) then he has one more non-convenience food thing he can do.
You're doing right by S18. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if he asks to stay with you if S moves out. Imagine how hard it is to grow up as the child of a hoarder who is so negligent of her kids.
I'm worried about S18.
I'd rather him have accurate knowledge then do his own speculation and worst case scenarios.
I think this is a good idea. Perhaps you shouid apply this same philosophy to what you tell S and how you share it with her.
S18 is lucky to have you. I’m sure that just makes it harder to do what you may want to do. It’s her another reason to go slow with intertwining children into Rs - not only for them but for us. You seem to very honest and forthright with S18. Why not with S?
Happy Wednesday all! Time for a non-update update.
Heard from S yesterday. She seems to have confidence in the lawyer that she is using. I presume it was suggested to her by the funeral home(?). Yet another firm called a "peacehold" is now involved in order to make the will legal. She's down there for at least much of today. I think she may be home tonight as she is supposed to be baby-sitting her grandson tomorrow but have no actual clue.
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As far as wills and such go, I went and reviewed mine over the past couple of days. At this point I'm not making any changes to the core document. My brothers as the exectors and my possessions to be divided between the kids. As per advice from my lawyer, my insurance policies and pensions have the kids specified as beneficiaries rather than the estate and doing it through the will. His advice was that that simplifies things and to handle any bequests etc through a separate document. I've re-read my will and it is very simple and clear. Something my lawyer emphasized as being important to simplify things when the time comes. If items went to the estate then the will has to go through probate before things can be dealt with. Or in the case with S - where there isn't an actual legal will even more complexity is involved.
My brothers are in charge and assets get split equally between the kids. It's basically a standard simple boiler-plate. On the separate documents outside my will that detail what assets there are and how specific bequests are to be handled, that could probably be disputed. I did update that back in March to give S the house and car. It's been changed (and as a separately dated document) so that S will get the "value" of the house after it is sold. There is no way that she would be able to maintain this place. Back in March I may have imagined that she would be able to with the help of her kids but know that to not be the truth now. S is aware that there are provisions for her but not what they are. I checked and my daughter at least can see the updated documents online and both kids have been told in "writing" (messages) that there are provisions for S and what they are.
I doubt it would be argued except perhaps by S. The kids don't want the house and I'm sure would rather have Dad than money but aren't living their lives in expectation of a bequest unlike S had been. The insurance money and pensions would give them a nice little boost and make them more comfortable. I'm not going to take that from them to give to someone who I've only known for a matter of months and who should be able to take care of themselves.
Reading through the will dated back in October 2016 - a time when I still hoped that I would have a reconciliation - I see no reason to revisit this simple document. If things do work out between S and I then the bequests to her could be handled through changing the beneficiary documents but as I mentioned - that's not in the cards at present.
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S did send across some money last night which will help - but certainly a lot less than she has before. I thanked her and mentioned that it was an odd amount but presumably what she could spare. I know that she has expenses that I'm not seeing anything on. Not that I personally care, but I could imagine her being upset if I was spending money without transparency. Different rules for the goose and gander.
A Facebook memory popped up this morning. It was of a productive day 2 years ago today. I'd made a pie, some soup, cleaned the house. Looking back here in my "diary" here I was feeling lonely and "stuck" though but very pleased with myself. I saw this in my post from that day
I was listening to an interview with a "relationship expert / divorce lawyer" and one thing she mentioned really resonated with me. She described one divorcing couple where the husband was complaining that at the beginning of the relationship, he "rescued" his wife who was badly in debt and had run up her credit cards by paying it all off but she never changed her behaviour and became responsible. That jarred me - it was pretty much exactly my story. In my case I paid up her back-rent, got her on to my credit card (which she/we ran up) and carried her and rescued her from her troubles - financial and otherwise for a lot of years. It was only until a major financial crisis about 15 years ago that she/we became much more responsible and she was so very proud of that. Just around when her EA started was when we finally got completely out of unsecured consumer debt. I recall how startled she was when one day when we were out shopping that I had no problem on dropping $2000 on a nice wooden bed. Something that had been inconceivable for the prior 25 years but now was no problem. We had the savings to more than cover it and paid cash.
Patterns repeat. I suppose that's what makes them patterns.
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Instagram keeps wanting me to be friends with my ex-wife. She has a private account that shows nothing posted. In recent days she updated her profile. I had quite the giggle about what she wrote. Well - at least she's embracing her past actions it would seem or is poking at me.
Dog mom to an elderly Pomeranian and a feisty poodle. Partner to a retired milkman. Loving my little house and the friends I keep close.
The milkman part is particularly funny to me. My profile isn't private so if she wants she can see lots of pictures of food. I would presume that the only reason people have and maintain an Instagram account without posting is so that they can lurk elsewhere. She set it up about a month ago but only completed the profile recently.
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Work has been crazy this week. There's no outbound load today but a huge load of containers to fill has shown up. I'd like to give the guy who actually does the work Friday afternoon off because he's been putting in extra time lately so am working on figuring that out. He's been doing this job since Moses was a boy and is very patient with me although I know he gets frustrated. I try to divert the "office" stuff from him which I know he appreciates. One grumble to me about someone bothering him and he doesn't hear from them again as I divert their questions. My job is to deal with the paperwork and nonsense and his is to safely fill and load product.
It's amazing how much math I use these days. So much for saying that algebra isn't necessary any more even in this world of computers. I have a large crib sheet on my wall with the different ratios and percentages and my old paper-tape calculator gets a solid work-out every day. I have 24 tonnes of product coming in on Friday, containers for about 35 tonnes and have to figure out who gets what while doing my best to make sure everything is full given 4 different container sizes. I also have a big tank that I use to store bulk product of different types but similar chemistry. Each one has a different specific gravity and the only indicator I have of what I have in the tank is one gauge that tells me either the number of inches full or the percentage full. Then "I math". And also remember that the darned gauges are never exactly accurate. A mistake and I have part filled containers that I can't sell or worse, run a pump dry which is a nuisance to restart.
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S18 and I had steak and potato wedges last night. Since he likes them, I had him make those. He of course treated it superficially as "no big" but I know was very stressed. He was very nervous handling the knife to slice up the potatoes especially. I think he's sliced himself badly in the past - who hasn't. I showed him how I do the slicing and then commented that he has to learn his own method that he's comfortable with and that there's no right or wrong way. He seemed pleased and they turned out pretty good. It's funny - when his mother is here he nags to get take-away food. When she's not he's happy to get / help with fresh made food or just grab something out of the freezer. I think he would prefer to eat "properly". When I commented on how important it was to me that the kitchen be "usable" he responded that his mother's kitchen never was. Something I remember clearly and one of the reasons I take ownership of keeping the kitchen usable here. And something I find sad that those kids at least for the last number of years didn't have what is to me that important feeling of "home" and "family" that comes out of any kitchen that I've ever been in.
S18 was talking again about how while he knows of a couple of friends who had places worse than where he was on how he knows that this place is no where near what most people would think of as "normal". A normal I think he would match to how I took care of things. If S and the boys are going to stay that "has" to get figured out. And I can't do it all by myself with them sabotaging it. I know that one of the excuses I made for S's apartment was that the 4 kids living there then were actively sabotaging the ability to have the place be livable but hadn't realized that S herself was one of the main culprits.
The self-doubt I'm fighting with is hard on me. As others have commented, it would be so much easier for me if the decisions were taken out of my hands. S isn't going to want to give up on her golden egg goose but she does have compassion (I believe). In her past it's taken egregious actions for her to be the one to leave and even then she's kept connected. I can see a path on how this could work but it would mean S really stepping up her game and working more "with" me and yes "for" me and not relying on others to do what she should be doing. I don't know if she's had her "come to Jesus" moment or not but doubt it. The easy solution would be for me to change the locks and leave her stuff piled on the lawn. Like my Dad though I keep giving people more chances. Hopefully unlike him, I can have a boundary on what I deem acceptable even if it's not very visible at present.
Well - back to it. This math doesn't do itself.
Patterns repeat. I suppose that's what makes them patterns.
Oh jeez - you really ARE repeating a pattern, aren't you?
As for the house in the will - I really don't understand why you put S in your will before you were even married. Did she pressure you into that in some subtle way? I'd take her off the will until such time as the relationship is stable and you're sure it's going to be long term. She's got an inheritance now, she won't be homeless or penniless if you die, and really your own kids should come before someone you've known so little for such a short time. Think of it as college funds for your future grandchildren.
At the 6 month dating mark you willed your house and car to S?!! OMG Andrew!!! Your kids may have not wanted the actual house, but they may have wanted to see it and split towards their own respective homes.
Please say you are taking her off the will! Please tell me she is not going to get your house, your pride where she turns it into a storage facility for her hoarding .
Oh man andy.
So this is weird but follows some projections.
S isn't coming home until sometime Sunday now. Too much driving she said. D19 will do the babysitting.
All she does at your house is watch TV, sleep until noon and play games on her phone. What can she possibly my be doing over there that is so time consuming and exhausting?
I think your luck is turning on you and she’s giving you the slow fade.
G - there's actually a surprising amount of things to do when a parent dies. Paperwork up the wazoo, arranging a memorial service, and in her case, picking through their things to make sure she gets what she wants. She's got the extra legal complications of trying to get that sketchy will certified and make sure she gets her inheritance. Heck, in my mom's case all I had to deal with were her funeral, bank accounts (which I was on) and two retirement accounts which listed all four of us kids as beneficiaries, but it was still a crazy amount of work.
That being said, it's equally possible she's socializing with friends (or ex-boyfriends) and trashing the place. Who knows? And it could be a slow fade. I do find it interesting what S13 said about his dad possibly living there with him and S - maybe just wishful thinking of a kid from a broken home, or maybe he knows something we don't.
Oh, I know there is lots to do when a parent does.
My point was, this is S. I can’t imagine she is working all day and night. 5 months in Andrews place, and she has barely unpacked and spends most of her days not doing much but sleeping, watching TV and playing on her phone. According to Andrewes accounts, none of the stuff you listed can be actually executed and followed through by her, especially alone.
I’ve got this gut feeling she is doing what she normally does with her day, only at a diffferent venue while Andrew makes sure her pets are cared for and her S18 has a ride and is cared for .
It’s a nice little earner though, isn’t it?
I mean, you catch the man, move in with your brood, pets (alive and deceased), and your hoard of many years. You get most of your meals either cooked or paid for, lounge around most of the day, go to bed when you want, get up when you want.
Your catch also does all the cleaning (because he actually likes it so you don’t have to, even if you wanted to) and running around for your kids to boot.
All you have to do, is give him a warm body and some nooky, once a week and ...........bingo bonus.
He also throws in the house!
Andrew. Please listen to what others are saying. How would you respond if a friend said to you to following:
Been with this woman for 6 months. In that time had an argument and that moved the relationship to a level of commitment I wasn't really ready for or comfortable with, had a second argument, now I find myself engaged and changing my will to favor her over my kids for the house and the car. She and her kids and pets move in 5 months ago and I co-sign a loan for her debt. There's boxes everywhere because she's still not unpacked. Dog craps all over the place and I have to pick it up. Cats, same. Food is left out, agreed to budget isn't followed, agreed to expense splitting isn't followed. I snooped and found that she's got a few grand squirreled away while she's not paying her share here. Her family descends like a plague of locusts every Sunday looking for dinner. My own son won't come by because he can't bear to see what his childhood home has turned into (my thoughts). I'm having anxiety attacks and am now under a doctor's care more fully. I really want to break up but I'm too much of a wuss so I've just changed my will again, and instead of giving her the house and the car I'm now giving her the proceeds of the sale of my house.
What would you say to this friend, Andrew? I really want to read an answer from you. A thoughtful, honest, not coming from a place of stubbornness answer.
It’s a nice little earner though, isn’t it?
I mean, you catch the man, move in with your brood, pets (alive and deceased), and your hoard of many years. You get most of your meals either cooked or paid for, lounge around most of the day, go to bed when you want, get up when you want.
Your catch also does all the cleaning (because he actually likes it so you don’t have to, even if you wanted to) and running around for your kids to boot.
All you have to do, is give him a warm body and some nooky, once a week and ...........bingo bonus.
He also throws in the house!
you forgot he also throws in the one year old car as well.
Sheesh! C'mon people - show some compassion here.
This poor woman has lost her father. The ONE person who has stood by her and behind her and is now an orphan. That feeling of aloneness is palpable and I know it myself. She's also going to lose her family home. That ONE constant refuge and safe place filled with memories. On top of that the man she found. The decent guy that she'd been searching for and had given up on existing, who she's thrown her whole heart into loving and risked herself and her children for is now showing he's no different than all the others and is talking about throwing her out on the street.
To cap it off she's got her brother who is pushing her to make decisions she doesn't want to, is being rushed along by lawyers and others to who knows what end and is having to trust that all these people are working in her best interest while at the same time coping ALONE with wave after wave of deep grief.
She knows that she struggles with being organized and getting things done and is doing the best that she feels she can and is probably surprising even herself.
Let's cut her some slack please.
I'm making sure her home, son and pets are safe and cared for. I'm not making any rash unilateral decisions. I am acting with compassion, kindness and patience and giving her the benefit of the doubt that we can turn this around if we can work together on it.
"Right or wrong", the right choice for me is one of compassion. To let her deal with the grief and stress and to find her feet under herself again. THEN we can deal with everything else.
PS - Westo - check your messages.
Andy P,
I like you. You’re a different cat but you have Canadian blood in your veins. I’m really sorry that S father passed away and I’m sure it’s difficult for her right now.
But you have to stop lying to yourself. S is a predator who preys on weak vulnerable men.
You are not acting out of compassion you are acting out of fear.
There is zero percent chance you are right and everyone else on the board is wrong.
I’m sorry.
I could go on and argue every point. But what for????
She is 100% a predator and yes, it’s tough to compassion for that.You are the man she risked everything and her children for? She didn’t have anything to risk, only to gain! And threw her whole heart into loving ?! How so?? Your narrative sounds wonderful and heartfelt. But she had her sights set on you because she has everything to gain and nothing to lose.
You should try some compassion for yourself rather than making excuses for her ways. You see them, know they aren’t right, but make excuses.
But you’ll believe what you want to believe. It’s honestly really tough to watch from over here.
But I promise not to comment any more and I just will wish you the best and pray you don’t lose everything you worked for out of fear.
do you know the difference between fierce compassion and enabling?
I will also address another point:
there is ONE commonality in that entire history you outlined. ONE. Think about that.
Is she a conscious predator? I don't know that and I'm not sure any of us here can tell that from afar. She could just be a needy and well-meaning mentally ill person with a severe hoarding problem.
AS for her grieving - we haven't heard from you about that, just her glee at being able to let her dog on her father's couch. If we've misinterpreted her response to her father's death, I'm sorry. (On the other hand, if you're PROJECTING what YOUR response to a parent's death would be ONTO her, take a close look at her ACTIONS to see if that's an appropriate assumption).
On top of that the man she found. The decent guy that she'd been searching for and had given up on existing,........ is now showing he's no different than all the others and is talking about throwing her out on the street.
Wrong narrative. Try this one: "That decent guy that she had found who was willing to rescue her and make it so that she didn't have to actually work for a living like most people do, is now fed up like her former beaus with her hoarding, laziness and extremely poor housekeeping skills."
Look, nobody is saying throw her out in the snow right now. But we ARE saying it's not appropriate to put her in your will with your house and car so early into a relationship, and especially now that she has an inheritance coming that would mean she wouldn't be homeless if you died, your house should go back to your children in your will.
You have sympathy for her brother forcing her to sell her childhood home, but none for your children seeing THEIR childhood home being sold to benefit the woman they warned you against dating? Can you imagine also the fight S might put up and the legal problems she might cause your children? It is likely better, if you want to include her in your will, to give her a small cash amount that is designated as her sole inheritance - check with a lawyer, but might be some help against her contesting the will, in that it shows your express intent regarding her.
Is she a conscious predator? I don't know that and I'm not sure any of us here can tell that from afar.
Definition of predator
1: one who controls or exploits others for personal gain or profit
So in the first six months of dating while still married she gets him to propose, move in his house, get in his will while living relatively rent and chore free. I could go on but it's not worth my time and doesn't really matter.
If not then I guess I don't understand the definition.
Andrew,
You have been given very wise and sage advice. Why in the world would you put her in your will at this time? She is not your wife, but another man's wife at this time. She is not relation to you but a "live in" and doesn't even measure up to being an equal partner in the upkeep of your home or sharing in expenses all that often. Your estate should be addressed as that of your children. You are wise in having someone outside your immediate family to handle the estate so that there are no hard feelings between your two children. As for S....please, please, do not include her in your will for your home or belongings. After all, she has her engagement ring and she can sell that down the road and not feel guilty about it. Actually, I do wonder what an attorney would advise you to do since she's still legally married to another man and no divorce papers on the docket to be processed. I would be interested in knowing the answer to that one. For all we know, she may decide to move out sometime in the near future and yes, still not be divorced.
As for her father's estate, I hope that she's allowing her brother to have input for the memorial service as well as listening to his input when it comes to settling up the estate. After all, she is not alone in making all of the important decisions in this situation. If she doesn't want to sell the her father's home, she can buy her brother out of his "share" of the family home. As for the will...it's going to be interesting as to how that plays out. I do feel for her during this time because there is an awful lot to take care of....but....her brother does know how she is and he knows that he needs to apply some much needed pressure to keep her on track and get things done.
It still doesn't change the fact that your home is not the way you want it and you have boxes all over the place and things have not been addressed to the hoarding and/or unpacking, etc., and let's not forget that you have become Mr. Money Bags too. Are you going to be patient 6 months from now about all of this mess just because she may still be grieving over the loss of her father? I hope that I am wrong and that she gets her sh!t together, but I don't see it happening. I see more furniture and other items coming your way. You will need to put a sign out front that your home is now Andrew's self storage facility.
I hope your health improves, but I can see where things will only escalate and your anxiety level and blood pressure will be going up. Something has to give in your situation.
(((Andrew)))
I'm starting with a hug because I think you need one. And, if you don't need one, well I need one for you, so there you go.
Now, I'm going to try and be gentle here, but I agree with what most of the others are saying. You've gotten some great advice from some far more knowledgeable folks than me regarding the will and such, so I'm just going to say I agree with all those folks. There is no reason to leave her the house. Even if y'all do work through everything and stay together, when something happens to you, she will be alright and can find a place to go. You need to focus on your kids, even if you think they won't want the house.
I said this to you privately, but I'll say it here, too. I'm so very sorry that S lost her dad. That [censored] for anyone. And, I'm sorry that you lost him too. I know you were not terribly close to him, but when your partner grieves, you grieve and I'm sorry you are both experiencing that. Sparky lost his dad just as we were beginning to open up and get to know each other and 2 years later, I'm still helping him deal with it. Sometimes, he doesn't think much about it, but some days it is VERY prevalent in everything he says and does and it is hard to watch, so I know you feel a burden in all of this and I'm so very sorry for you. I keep reminding you what a kind, loving, gentle, genuine soul that you are BECAUSE YOU ARE! You don't want to hurt anyone for any reason and you keep likening yourself to your own dad who "gave lots of chances". You said something in your post that really jumped out at me and I want to focus on that.
On top of that the man she found. The decent guy that she'd been searching for and had given up on existing,........ is now showing he's no different than all the others and is talking about throwing her out on the street.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, Andrew! Just no! You really need to reexamine that. You ARE a decent guy. You are NOT talking about throwing her out in the street. Listen, man, you are going to make the choice that is right for you, or more accurately, you are going to make the decision that is right for S out of fear of losing her and hurting her, but I'm sorry to be mean, but this is just dead-a$$ wrong. You are a decent guy who has given her love, a home, money and everything she could possibly want and despite your discomfort, you are continuing to allow her to stay on. What she SHOULD be learning from that is that not all men are the same and that there are some truly genuine good men out there. What she shouldn't be learning is that when you find one of those men that you should use him for whatever you can get until something better comes along. I have asked this before and I still don't expect you to actually give me an answer, but I do REALLY want you to think about it...…..at what point do you and everyone else around S stop making excuses for her and start seeing that maybe she is part of the problem rather than all those other men just being horrible? Seriously...………..it kind of goes back to what bttrfly said above...there is ONE common thread through S's entire story...think about what that is.
You tell us to give her some slack as she just lost her dad. Andrew, as job said above, no one is suggesting that you box up and fling her stuff out in the yard today while she's gone to her dad's and change the locks so she can't get back in. In fact, no one is even suggesting that you tell her today she has to get out. What everyone IS saying is that you need to be planning your exit strategy and really be thinking about it. I'm sure she's grieving her father, but if you keep using that as an excuse, she is eventually going to pick up on that being an excuse and start to use it herself, then here we'll be 3 years down the road having these same posts where you can't bring yourself to ask her to move out because you caught her crying about something about her dad.
As far as her being a predator, I feel like you addressed that yourself in another thread. You said she basically stalked you until you asked her out, despite your children warning you not to go out with her, and now, moving forward, according to your own posts, every time things have gotten difficult (marriage talk, moving in, now breaking up and moving out), she has pressured you and gotten angry when things didn't go her way. I'm sorry, but I'm with LH...if those aren't predatory actions, apparently I don't really know what that word means.
Andrew, I am not trying to speak for everyone, but I think most would agree with me that we are not intentionally being hard on S just to get under your skin. We are trying to show you that we care about you and want to help you get out of a situation that is just absolutely not good for you. I said before and I will say again, something has to give Andrew...something other than you because you seem to be the only (or thing) giving at all in your scenarios.
Originally Posted by kml
Is she a conscious predator? I don't know that and I'm not sure any of us here can tell that from afar.
Definition of predator
1: one who controls or exploits others for personal gain or profit
So in the first six months of dating while still married she gets him to propose, move in his house, get in his will while living relatively rent and chore free. I could go on but it's not worth my time and doesn't really matter.
If not then I guess I don't understand the definition.
LH19 - I said "conscious" predator, as in premeditated, versus needy and not self-aware, clinging to a lifeboat. Could be either - none of us knows enough from a distance to be sure. The end result is pretty much the same though. It's one thing to take on a damsel in distress who cannot work but who can make things comfy and cozy at home and contributes in that way. It's another to take on a damsel in distress who turns out to be a difficult person who takes no responsibility for improving her health, is not sufficiently grateful to try to follow the budget that is making it possible for her to live there without getting a job, and contributes almost nothing to your homelife of value.
way too much focus here on S. focus needs to shift squarely onto Andrew. JMHO. So, Andrew, what are you getting out of this? Obviously you're getting something or you wouldn't allow it to continue. What's YOUR pattern here in sticking with a situation which obviously makes you miserable? You may think you're being kind to S, but you aren't. In fact, it's almost more cruel to lead her on this way, thinking there may be hope. You're keeping her in limbo, because she can't make decisions which could benefit her greatly if she knew how you really feel (sell or keep couch is only a small example).
There is nothing that says you have to say get out today. You can say this isn't going to work long term and I don't want to be married, factor that in as you settle things with your dad's estate. I will be here to support you through that as your friend but not as your romantic partner.
If you had told her how you really felt the day after thanksgiving, where would you be now? where would she be?
Thanks ((bttrfly)).
way too much focus here on S. focus needs to shift squarely onto Andrew. JMHO. So, Andrew, what are you getting out of this? Obviously you're getting something or you wouldn't allow it to continue.
I was thinking about this question earlier this morning even before reading your question while looking for the dog-doo in the back yard (looks a lot like leaves), finding it in the living room, and having her cats trying to trip me going down-cellar for their food.
To be frank I think you put your finger on the key important issue here. Which has been pointed out to me over and over again here and elsewhere but I'm a slow learner and rather stubborn.
The reason why I got engaged and the key thing that S said she wanted to bring to me was to reduce the stress and work that I had and to use her differences to add more joy to my world and to give me a different perspective on things. I saw her as a spiritual person with a wacky / quirky manner and a lot of hidden depths and a kind heart that would be a contrast to my button-down bow-tie Felix Unger self. For those who have taken the time to get to know me I do also have a wacky / quirky side myself. Even though sometimes it felt empty and lonely I was generally a pretty happy and content guy on my own (my son was a ghost who I rarely saw).
It hasn't worked out that way from at least my point of view. I don't know how much thought S herself has given to this but I do know she was very upset when I said that "I'm not afraid of hard work" saying that she wanted to be a bright and happy spot for me and not "work".
I've been unable to find those hidden depths and much of what I thought was "her" spirituality was actually perhaps her mother's. I've asked her for about a year now to help clear out the house of bad karma using smudging or other appropriate techniques and nada. She's also had people ask her to do readings and other things and again it doesn't happen.
My ex-wife was a capable and hard worker for her her employer. She was a decent cook when she put her mind to it and an active volunteer in the community. Things I had a lot of pride in as being associated with her.
With B - she was busy and loving with her family and grand-kids. Worked hard at her job which gave her a lot of satisfaction. A fabulous baker who made really nice breads and pies. She was loud, brash and constantly talking. Her family, especially her mother accepted me in while still keeping my own identity. Again, someone who I was proud to have on my arm.
In S's daily life other than vague awareness of the phases of the moon and lots of supplies all over the house, I don't see that "earth goddess" that was my original perception of her. I see - I hate to say it - a worse version of my ex-wife. Someone who is happy with others doing the various chores and is ok if they don't get done. Who is wrapped up with their phone and mindless TV programs and who has no apparent "depth" to their thinking or life despite being reasonably well informed. She doesn't seek out new experiences, spend time in nature or spend time thinking about healthy lifestyles either physically or emotionally. I know that there's a lot of negative piled up there but that's because I don't see the positives I want to see. And I don't see things that I can honestly point to and say "this is a fabulous person - I'm so lucky".
What's YOUR pattern here in sticking with a situation which obviously makes you miserable?
I know from my former marriage that one of the things that sustained me during the bad times that undoubtedly exist in any marriage was the fact that I'd made a
promise.I think that this boils down to one key factor here in my personality. When I give my word I stick to it. And I'm stubborn about it. And it ties into pride.
I'm also a soft touch. Those who know me IRL may recall how I was ripped off in Madrid last year by a street hustler with an aggressively friendly manner. This sort of thing has happened before too. I get sucked in and am too "nice" to pull the plug even after it is obvious that I'm being taken advantage of which would require me to be rude and abrupt.
I also have a burning need to "do the right thing" and to do no harm. Heck, given the chance I will wrap a wasp up in a tissue and carefully take them outside (yes - I'm sure some are drawing parallels :P )
I still have Senor Don Quixote - Knight of The Rueful Countenance staring at me steadfastly on my desk. Reminding me that even when the world thinks that you are mad that it is how I myself view the world and my place in it that matters. But I need to learn that there are times that perceived madness clouds the truth that lies underneath it all. I'm doing better at that but not great.
You may think you're being kind to S, but you aren't. In fact, it's almost more cruel to lead her on this way, thinking there may be hope.
I've still not completely convinced myself that there's no hope. I've had waves of the angry "I'm done" and times of the rational "I'm done" moments.
But making that arbitrary, unilateral choice is beyond me at present. Just like what kept me here and stuck for so very long even after my ex had built herself a new albeit secret life away from me. There were multiple times when I decided that I'd had enough and then either pulled myself back from the brink or was pulled back. Either by well-meaning people here or by miniscule crumbs - I even called them that - that I believed that my ex would drop.
If you had told her how you really felt the day after thanksgiving, where would you be now? where would she be?
Part of that question pre-supposes my ability to act rationally based on the feeling that I had earlier in that day. Kind of the "so - how long have you been beating your dog" question.
For the sake of argument let's say that I'd found my testicular fortitude and stuck with it. S would have been very angry, hurt and shocked. Her kids would have rallied around her and she probably would be sleeping on her daughter's couch or at her Dad's place while she looked for an apartment. Raises a further possibility about her Dad's passing while doing yard-work that isn't a good idea to explore.
Her stuff would be here and possibly S18 for a few months or perhaps longer.
I don't think she would have taken the approach initially of trying to find what was wrong and trying to work on that. She, like my ex-wife, seem to have the take that when I say something definitively that there is no point in discussing it with me.
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This is really helpful to me for forming my thoughts and comments around this in preparation for our counseling session which S has now booked for this coming Tuesday evening.
Looking at the contributions that each makes. The way that we fight and discuss things. Asking perhaps the honest question of if this is something that will work for both of us longer term - that will be a tough one to come out of my mouth.
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Trying to catch up here. Crazy nutso work days not helped by my computer dieing on Wednesday morning. Fortunately I've wizzed on computers before so was able to be my own computer wiz.
Work is very positive though. I work with some really good people that seem to appreciate my hard work and contributions. I've always been someone who largely ignores job descriptions which having a really vague one helps. Because of the way the universe works these days I technically report to the CEO who has given me a 2 word job description "Help (insert name of president here)". Everyone is interpreting that very broadly.
I scanned some documents that came in the mail to S and her brother for the insurance buy-out. She's got an appointment with the bank on Monday and will be staying down there. Not sure when she'll be home if it will be Monday evening or Tuesday before our counseling appointment. My view of the relationship is warped right now by the fact that she's been here less in the last 3 weeks than pretty much any time since we started dating last fall. I send her a message in the morning and evening and often at lunch. I hear little back from her. I do my own thing around the house albeit constrained by needing to do the pet care, whatever S18 happens to need for rides and occasional food and the piles of stuff that I'm reluctant to try to organize on my own.
Thanks all for your support.
Fortunately I've wizzed on computers before so was able to be my own computer wiz.
Lol - apparent differences in American and Canadian slang - here that would mean you have peed on computers before.
As for S - that fact that even after being asked she hasn't bothered to smudge the house or do any readings tells you all you need to know about her so-called "spirituality".
In fact, pretty much everything you thought she would be did not turn out to be true. And look at the contrast between the phone contact you had when you were dating versus now. I would expect most women, apart from their partner dealing with the tragic death of a parent, would welcome the occasional text or call and would at the very least call you at bedtime just for support.
Imagine a future where you have a more functional partner - someone who can discuss ideas with you, contribute to the household in some way, travel with you - or maybe stay in her own home and date you on the weekends! Wouldn't your life be so much better? Sadly I think that's not possible with S because that's not who she is.
Sit back when you first get to the counseling session and let her go first. You may learn a lot from where she goes. Then speak up for yourself - you don't see this working and want to work towards an amicable separation.
Btw Andrew - you made a VOW to your wife, not a promise. Being engaged is NOT the same thing as being married and you should not treat it the same. This time is for you to LEARN exactly what you have, whether that person is actually compatible with you for a long term marriage. You've discovered she's not.
Fortunately I've wizzed on computers before so was able to be my own computer wiz.
Lol - apparent differences in American and Canadian slang - here that would mean you have peed on computers before.
Means the same thing here
There were a lot of reasons that doodler and I got along.
I've tried to keep my skills current over the years and like to think that I can find my way around most machines and data warehouses. I think it surprises people sometimes that I am have such a depth and breadth of experience and skills. Most people generally slot themselves into a specialty which I'm sure you understand in your own profession and generalists like myself are rare. And also have a hard time getting a new gig because most companies look for specialists.
In fact, pretty much everything you thought she would be did not turn out to be true. And look at the contrast between the phone contact you had when you were dating versus now. I would expect most women, apart from their partner dealing with the tragic death of a parent, would welcome the occasional text or call and would at the very least call you at bedtime just for support.
I do find it weird that it's me that does the initiating 90% of the time these days.
Btw Andrew - you made a VOW to your wife, not a promise. Being engaged is NOT the same thing as being married and you should not treat it the same. This time is for you to LEARN exactly what you have, whether that person is actually compatible with you for a long term marriage. You've discovered she's not.
Yeah. The sunk costs fallacy is certainly part of it. Differentiating between a promise and a vow seems lawyerly to me.
One thing that keeps going through my mind is that scene from A Christmas Carol (the Alistair Simms version is the BEST one)
He was not alone, but sat by the side of a fair young girl in a black dress, in whose eyes there were tears.
"It matters little," she said softly to Scrooge's former self. "To you, very little. Another idol has displaced me; and if it can comfort you in time to come, as I would have tried to do, I have no just cause to grieve."
"What Idol has displaced you?"
"A golden one. You fear the world too much. I have seen your nobler aspirations fall off one by one, until the master-passion, Gain, engrosses you. Have I not?"
"What then? Even if I have grown so much wiser, what then? I am not changed towards you. Have I ever sought release from our engagement?"
"In words, no. Never."
"In what, then?"
"In a changed nature; in an altered spirit; in another atmosphere of life; another Hope as its great end. If you were free today, tomorrow, yesterday, can even I believe that you would choose a dowerless girl; or, choosing her, do I not know that your repentance and regret would surely follow? I do; and I release you. With a full heart, for the love of him you once were."
Sit back when you first get to the counseling session and let her go first. You may learn a lot from where she goes. Then speak up for yourself - you don't see this working and want to work towards an amicable separation.
That is really really good advice that as usual I will have a hard time following. But I'm going to try. Keeping mouth shut and ears open is the only way to learn things. I do have a tendency to dive into exposition and stick my foot in it.
I'm glad that what I wrote was helpful, Andrew
For the sake of argument let's say that I'd found my testicular fortitude and stuck with it. S would have been very angry, hurt and shocked. Her kids would have rallied around her and she probably would be sleeping on her daughter's couch or at her Dad's place while she looked for an apartment. Raises a further possibility about her Dad's passing while doing yard-work that isn't a good idea to explore.
I believe that when it's one's time that's it, pop go the clogs ...
we are not powerful enough to stop death when it's someone's time to go.
The difference between a promise and a vow?
When you married your XW you both made a vow. You publicly stated before the people gathered there, and your God, all the things with which I'm sure we're familiar. When you promised S that you would love her that was an agreement made solely with her.
Before you bind yourself to the "I never break my promises" yoke, you should recall that you made that agreement:
-with the belief she was serious about her commitment to you (e.g. she was actively seeking a divorce)
-with the (incorrect) knowledge you had of her strengths and weaknesses (i.e. she was spiritual, energetic, entrepreneurial etc), and
-with the belief that she'd follow through with whatever promises she made you.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Andrew, everything we think we know about S has been written by you. This woman that you say you are going to work hard for - who is absolutely worth your every effort - is the same woman almost everybody here sees in a deeply unflattering light. That light is cast by you!
I couldn't believe you could take us to task for a lack of compassion then go on yourself to write posts with semi-scathing remarks about her, or her brood or her habits. If you truly believe what you write on this forum, why are you trying so hard to convince yourself that S is anything other than what you say she is?
The will thing is also particularly alarming. I simply cannot believe you dislike your children so much you want to effectively disinherit them. I know they aren't particularly involved in your life right now, but if the worst were to happen today would you really be OK with them having to fight S for their inheritance?
I'm going to look a bit harsh here, but I believe it's ridiculous to consider yourself honour-bound to stay with, and provide for, S considering the obvious disrespect you have for her. That pride you say you have in keeping your word is looking like a very large and heavy rod for your back. Are you really sure your long-term happiness is so worthless?
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Andrew, everything we think we know about S has been written by you. This woman that you say you are going to work hard for - who is absolutely worth your every effort - is the same woman almost everybody here sees in a deeply unflattering light. That light is cast by you!
I couldn't believe you could take us to task for a lack of compassion then go on yourself to write posts with semi-scathing remarks about her, or her brood or her habits. If you truly believe what you write on this forum, why are you trying so hard to convince yourself that S is anything other than what you say she is?
Nail firmly hit on the head, right there.
Bravo Devvo!
Stressing about lots of things today and burning through another thread because of it.
Surprisingly my blood pressure was about the lowest I've seen it at 93/68 even after I got angry at the dog for barking on and on and on. The radio was cutting in and out and it bothered her. I did yell at her which is highly unusual and then set her in the living room where she sat on the couch perhaps knowing that she did wrong. My usual blood pressure is up around 131/72
S contacted me late yesterday afternoon with a computer problem with her Dad's computer. She was pretty desperate I think. Even though she never talks to me on the phone I called her and was able to walk her through some of the steps over the phone. I used Messenger to see her screen and her and walked her through the rest of the issues. Technology isn't one of her strong suits.
It was weird to see her and hear her voice. She was thankful for the help. S18 commented that he was surprised at how patient I was. I have a "lot" of practice though doing remote support. He's also mentioned that he's not looking forward to having her back at the house. Sad in a number of ways. By the sounds of it S13 isn't in any rush to see her either.
S said she'd had a busy day of doing yard work and dusting there but was trying to take it easy to spare her back. I do expect that she's making an effort to keep the place to the standards that her Dad had. Her D19 is going down to hang out with her this weekend and watch movies. She asked how I was doing and I told her that I was very tired and rather stressed. Looking at her screen reflected on mine, I really looked it I'm sure.
S was saying how bizarre it was for her to be actually alone for the first time she can ever remember. No kids, no critters, just her.
Nail firmly hit on the head, right there.
Yeah. I own this. Reluctantly and guiltily but I own this.
It's difficult to capture nuance and feelings and I do feel bad about also piling on S for my perception of her faults.
As a bit of background on the whole "being dead" thing. S and her brother have decided that for the present that there will be no funeral or memorial. They'll do something when people can travel again. So the fact that she's not spending time on that but is instead working on sorting out the estate is reasonable I feel.
As far as me being dead - a colleague of mine who was common-law with her partner for quite a few years was left "out in the cold" after he passed. That really stuck with me on how at risk people can be in a relationship if the other person passes and how "unfair" is seems for that person to just be left aside.
It was easier to add an personal codicil to ensure that S got something to help her start fresh (let's ignore her Dad's legacy) rather than change the core document or the beneficiaries on my pensions or insurance policies. Saying "proceeds from the house" seemed the logical move. Given the uncertainty these days I'm very reluctant to put in anything more binding. It's not a lot of cash as the house has a good sized mortgage on it after I bought out my ex-wife. It "is" the family home yes and the importance of that to my kids didn't stick in my head as well as it should have.
The documents are not witness nor signed. The kids would be reasonable though in believing that this reflects my wishes as stated to them. And if I change my mind, the documents are easy to revise. They would also be difficult to enforce if challenged. I'm going to leave it all alone for now. Yanking things around during uncertain times just adds more uncertainty which I can really do without.
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The counseling session next Tuesday will be difficult as will S being back in the house and those are what I'm stressing on the most. She said she may be home late Monday but I have my doubts that she'll be here before Tuesday afternoon. kml's suggestion to keep my big yap shut and listen is a good plan although I can imagine both the counselor and S staring at me with a "well - this was your idea we needed this" look.
I want to focus on a couple of key things. "Easy to love but hard to live with" described from the perspective that I'm feeling more stressed, less healthy and less happy than I was before we were together. That goes into the fight we had just before I proposed where S pushed that I was too stressed and not taking care of myself and that she wanted to help me. What I perceive as our communication issues where I feel confined and constrained because I'm afraid of being shut down and then attacked. I think that is pretty much the whole time we'll get.
I'm conflict avoidant. I know this. I'm upset with myself that I'm in a situation where these things need to be faced. While the argument could be made that I was pushed into this situation, I allowed it to happen.
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Enough whining. The weather today is unseasonably warm. I have one load of laundry out on the line and 2 more to go. No ironing this weekend. The shirt I wear on my one day in to the plant / week is a uniform shirt that is wrinkle resistant so hanging it out will be good enough. I believe that I'll be getting some more uniforms shortly. I remain the only person who wears a bow tie with them.
I have a side trip to my favourite butcher shop which has decided to only do curb-side orders for the next year. Going to skip the bank today though as I have lots of cash in my wallet and S has said that she can skip her pocket money infusion this week.
I'm going to get the trampoline taken down except for the frame and put away.
I'm thinking that I'll do some pan-seared chicken for dinner tomorrow. I may just graze for tonight. I'm going to have brunch with my son tomorrow and see "my girls".
I have a bunch of office work to do this weekend too. I fell behind last week due to a combination of factors and I've found that the weekends are a good time to do some of the more serious math and planning that is needed. I have 2 special orders coming in that will need some extra work. Friday was a crap-show in many ways because I messed up by about 9 tonnes on an order and had to call the supplier to sort things out. Fortunately - as I should learn in my personal life - if you call someone and just explain things to them, they can often be quite accommodating. Sigh. Slow learner.
Hard to believe that it's only a few more shopping weeks before I need to get the parcels in the mail for my daughter and her husband for Christmas. Given that I don't know where they will be moving to the usual membership to the local zoo (they never really got to use their one for the San Diego Zoo) won't be an option I think.
Thank you everyone for your support and arse-kicking as I work though this very very difficult time. I'm grateful for a venue where I can explore my feelings even if they make no sense to pretty much everyone, especially me.
I want to focus on a couple of key things. "Easy to love but hard to live with" described from the perspective that I'm feeling more stressed, less healthy and less happy than I was before we were together. That goes into the fight we had just before I proposed where S pushed that I was too stressed and not taking care of myself and that she wanted to help me. What I perceive as our communication issues where I feel confined and constrained because I'm afraid of being shut down and then attacked. I think that is pretty much the whole time we'll get.
Do you realize you said you wanted to focus on a couple of things, then only mentioned what you think are your communication issues? Sure there’s going to be communication issues when you’re dealing with a hoarder! Just like any other addict, they’ll adroitly turn things around into you in order to avoid having to face their own problem.
Don’t you think that bringing up her hoarding and the effect it is having on you would be pretty important?
And btw I didn’t mean be silent the whole time - but just see if S will speak up first. You might learn a lot from what she starts with. If she complains you’re a clean freak and won’t watch dumb tv shows with her - I think it’s fair to just admit you’re not really compatible. If she doesn’t start with some ownership of what a mess she’s made of your house, I doubt you’ll get far. Just to remind you though - what you’re asking for isn’t unreasonable. You’re not freaking out about a few crumbs on the counter like CMM.
Thanks kml - that was what I presumed you had meant. As Samuel Clemens once I believe said "It is better to close your mouth and be perceived as an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt".
One good thing about this essentially 3 week break is that it's given me time to work through my own thoughts on this. The fact that I'm perfectly happy if not more comfortable when S isn't here is certainly both obvious and telling and is certainly something that I should be talking about when we go to counseling. Her limited messaging and my own certainly seem to have a continuing distancing. Like those buzzards in Disney's Jungle Book we have gotten stuck in a "so what do you want to do loop" with no Shere Khan to bump us out of it.
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Just an update on a pretty good day. I slept in for about 11 hours and felt fairly rested. Made myself a decent breakfast then took S18 in to work and headed out to see my own son. It is a Glorious day here. Warm, sun-shiny.
I dropped off some halloween candy as well as some sausages from our favourite butcher shop. He was very happy especially about the sausages which are a "thing" in our family at least with the kids and I. I think my ex-wife was annoyed at always being asked for them.
The place we were going to go for brunch wasn't open so we walked a couple of more blocks to a more traditional coffee-shop place where there was some darned amazing comfort food. I had a BLT with home fries and S26 had eggs that were cooked exactly as he liked them. We'll definitely go back.
"The girls" were happy to see me and belly-rubs and pets were distributed. Liz actually demanded affection which is her normal. In the past she's hidden under the bed when I've visited and has had to be coaxed out. Amy seems to have lost quite a bit of weight but S26 says that she's eating fine and both seem to be healthy. I really miss them a lot. Oh and my son.
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In other news I asked S18 to take over cooking dinner for us last night and he did a pretty good job. Much less nervous than before. We had potato wedges which he made earlier in the week for the first time and sausages. We both quite enjoyed them. I'm pleased that he's stretching himself and I think I've changed how he looks at nutrition and food in the past few weeks. I've not ordered any take-out and he and I have had a few simple made-from-scratch meals. Which is actually my normal. S18 has noticed the increase in "healthy food" around the house and joked about it.
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I wish I had a crystal ball that worked for me. There actually is one somewhere in the house but I have no idea how to use it. Mapping a path to a life where I'm comfortable and happy is proving to be difficult. Not just the mapping but the putting my feet on to the path part too. I feel horrible that I regret some of the choices that I have made and that there are 10 other souls who are impacted by that. The hamster perhaps doesn't count, but I'm including him too.
I have to find the courage to be honest. Completely honest. That I am unhappy with the way things are and that I'm not seeing a path towards a better future. Back in November / December S and I talked and one of the things we talked about was that I could see where we were as "A" and where I hoped we be as "C" but that I couldn't see the path that took us from A to C. She assured me that she had a plan. Where I am is not what I imagined as "C". That had us being a couple who supported and encouraged each other, who complemented the other's strengths and filled in on the weaknesses. S is loving but I don't feel like we are at all a team and are living different lives.
Well - much cleaning to do and I've not made much of a start. Making pan-seared chicken for dinner tonight. I have a bunch of math to do for work as well to figure out the production plan for the start of next week. And I'm terrified of the counseling session and how to approach things. Courage and Honesty. Honesty and Courage. (pats pockets) now where did I leave those ...
I noticed a similarity between your situation and mine.
The anxiety and stress level of each individual at your house seemed to be peaceful for the moment.
What is the common trait?
Could it be stability, comfort, peaceful environment??
From what you share, you are not the only one who is happier ..
I remember OW' s kids telling my kids that they wish their mother was more like me.
Ironic and sad.
I see S' s kids having more faith in you than in their own mother..
This alone says alot ((( Andrew ))).
In my situation, i actually considered taking her kids in. My kids talked me out of it because we finally had peace at home and they had grand-parents that were taking them in once in awhile. I always felt sorry for her kids. They both walked out on them and never returned...
Imo, best decision they could have made..
Stress level through the roof and wandering around the tree-tops.
I've composed a post here 4 times so far and deleted each.
S might be home very late tonight or sometime tomorrow. Counselling session is scheduled for tomorrow at 6:00. I honestly don't expect her tonight but rather tomorrow afternoon.
So many things spinning around in my head right now. I struggle because finding the negative is so very easy and finding the positive is so very very hard. Much of the positive that I can see is tied to the fact that this has been a good change for her and at least S18.
I feel disingenuous going for counseling when I have so much difficulty seeing an outcome or process that doesn't seem like just being negative about her. I suppose that this is "normal" for couples counseling.
Even though it probably doesn't seem like it from what I write, I like to think that I try to paint things in a positive light and notice the good in people and events. I seem blinded to be able to do that. The best I can do is that she means well and does as good as she can despite her handicaps.
The word "predator" has really stuck in me. And it hurts. She initiated the first kiss on the second date. She initiated physical contact. She reached out to me within days of knowing that I had been dumped. She pushed me that I needed her to help me and so I proposed. She pressured me into setting a move-in date.
I'm choosing to believe that it was all sourced from good intentions.
I don't do well when dealing with people and emotions. Thanks to the kindness and support from here I know what I need to do. I need to be honest about how I feel and how and why I am struggling. It feels like being lazy to say that it's easier to be alone. It feels disingenuous to be so selfish as to prioritize my own comfort and happiness over the well-being of others.
On the other hand, I have complete confidence that for a particular value of "ok" that S and the boys would be ok without me. So it's not so much about me being a rescuer as it might be otherwise. I recall telling S repeatedly in the early days of dating that I did not want to be in a situation where I was rescuing anyone. And she would probably be offended if I believed that.
I have found some words. Words that I am confident enough to use that aren't in themselves confrontational although S may well be offended. She's heard me now say "easy to love but hard to live with" several times. She's not heard "hoarder" from me and I expect she would have a hard time denying it. Predator I don't want to use. "Forcing things faster than we should have" is perhaps accurate though.
This is hard. Really really hard. Perhaps more difficult in my imagination and conscience than the reality will actually be. I wish I knew in advance what the outcome will be. I fully expect that this first session will be exploratory and we'll be sent back with things to work on although I did send in a novel in the pre-screening questionnaire and this counselor is presumably already well aware of S and her issues. I do know that she seemed surprised as were many others that we were a couple.
Courage in steps. Going to proof-read one last time and then hit post.
Wish me luck.
Andy P,
Your posts are very difficult to read. You jumped head first into this with a woman who is about to go on her 4th or 5th marriage completely discounting statistics base on an obscure post from Jack &three beans. Why? Because you fear you’re not enough and will die alone.
So now you’re in the midst of it all but still not married. You’re miserable because of your living circumstances, your children pulling away from you and losing most of your prides and joys. Why? Because you fear you’re not enough and you will die alone.
On top of that you are going to couples counseling and you wrote a novel when technically you should be in the honeymoon stage. Why? Because you fear you’re not enough and will die alone.
Lastly you cling to this one line you must have heard in a country song “ your easy to love and hard to live with”. If you truly love someone then you accept all their flaws. So the million dollar question Andrew is do you really love this woman or is this life out weigh your fear of dying alone?
BTW there is no truth to that fear because you are a really good dude Andrew you just need to believe in yourself.
Why? Because you fear you’re not enough and you will die alone.
No - not this at all. I have no fear of being alone and know that I am enough. I don't "need" to have someone in my life. I "wanted" to to have someone to share my good life with - and it's not turned out the way that I hoped.
I'm just in over my head right now.
Hi Andrew
(((Hug)))
Be honest and sincere. See what happens tomorrow and go from there.
D
Andrew, if you seriously just wanted someone to share your good life with, you wouldn’t have given in to all the pressure for things you weren’t ready for.
You say you feel disingenuous to prioritize your happiness and comfort at the expense of the well being of others. Well, if you don’t prioritize your happiness and comfort it is at the well/being of YOURSELF. You aren’t a martyr. You are a human who shouldn’t have to sacrifice your well being for others
I hope you can find the courage to do what you need to for your sake and for S’s sake.
Andrew, re the disingenuousness of prioritizing yourself... do you honestly think a relationship will be heathy and mutually happy and satisfying if only one person gets what they want all the time?
yes, I've not been in a relationship since my divorce, however my exh and I were together for 26 years. We were happiest when we had a balance. I was miserable when it was all his way, whether that was only my perception or whether it was reality. I'm sure there are literally thousands of people who have come through these forums who would say the same thing. This is the point you need to focus on in your own personal internal work: why is your happiness not as valid as others in your life? Do you want your daughter to have a marriage where her happiness doesn't count, only her husband's does? Think about it.
xoxo
It feels like being lazy to say that it's easier to be alone. It feels disingenuous to be so selfish as to prioritize my own comfort and happiness over the well-being of others.
It's not lazy - it IS easier being alone than "raising" an adult human being who acts like an irresponsible teenager.
And it's not selfish to prioritize yourself. You have given S every opportunity to meet you in the middle. I'm quite sure that if you had taken up with a woman who was incapable of earning a living for some reason but was consistently warm, loving, attentive, considerate, and did her very best to show her appreciation by helping to keep a nice home, you would be quite happy with the situation. Unfortunately, that's not S.
Example - again - CMM is reliant upon me for housing (he has enough to cover half our groceries and his own bills, but without me providing housing he'd be in quite a pickle). So even though he has stage 4 lung cancer he tries very hard to "pull his own weight" by cooking me dinner almost every night, and doing a lot of the cleaning (although granted half of the cleaning is his own OCD thing lol). I feel the trade-off is pretty fair, I don't feel taken advantage of in any way.
And please DO use the word "hoarder". Like I've said before, her therapist may have NO IDEA that she's a hoarder. I raised my kids in an affluent town and the most normal looking rich suburban housewife could (and did) turn out to be a terrible hoarder. It's a mental illness that's easy to hide if you keep people out of your home. And since she's never shown any insight into her problem with you, she's most likely not bringing it up with her therapist either.
(((Andrew)))
I don't really even have anything to add to what everyone else has said and I'm not going to pile on or be negative (I know....who the h3ll am I?). I just wanted to say good luck today and try to make sure YOU are heard.
I echo Dawn,
Good luck and make clear your position in this R.
Thinking of you today and I sincerely hope that you can find the courage to actually state what is on your mind. No matter how much it hurts, you've got to be honest w/S and the therapist. This will be the safest place to actually state what is on your mind. Do not be afraid to speak up for yourself and state the facts. Do not pussy foot around the dance floor in a passive manner. Be direct, maintain eye contact and keep your voice neutral. You can do this.
Andrew, adding to the pep talk. Sometimes you need to rip the bandage off to prevent greater pain in the long run.
Best of luck. I know you can dig deep and do what's necessary. If not now, Andrew, then when? As Job said, you're in the absolute safest place in the therapist's office to let it rip.
Carpe Diem.
Sometimes you need to rip the bandage off to prevent greater pain in the long run.
Excellent analogy! And you can use the (accurate) reasoning that you wouldn't want her to be making current financial decisions based on the relationship continuing when you don't think that's going to happen.
Andrew, here is something to help you get through this...
If the tables were turned, would you want honesty or smooth talk ?
Wouldn' t you be more hurt or angry if your partner would not be truthful with you?
You can do this... Honesty!!
Just echoing what others have said.
Andrew... Last year, if you recall, I was dating someone I knew was not right for me. I engaged in all kinds of mental gymnastics to make him right for me until finally I couldn’t lie to myself any longer and I ended things. Two months went by with only a few contacts and then he came back around. I knew he missed me. I knew that he probably wasn’t going to find someone anytime soon and he was lonely. So...I went down that road again and did a few more mental gymnastics to make it okay...and TBH, I liked the physical closeness which I hadn’t had with anyone in a long time. BUT...I still knew in my heart of hearts that we weren’t right for each other...so I finally broke up with him for good. It was hard because I HATE hurting someone BUT staying with him when I knew we didn’t have a future was hurting him even more. It wasn’t fun but when I finally made the decision and I stuck with it, it was like a huge weight had been lifted off of my shoulders. You will feel that way too Andrew. (((BIG HUGS)))
Thanks all.
The counseling session happened. Some surprises, but not many.
I was pleased with the counselor. She was engaging, friendly and very professional. In asking later it turned out that S had only seen her once or twice and it was around when we started dating. I had the impression that she'd been seeing this person for years but like many things, the reality is a lot thinner than the story-line.
It was pretty plain to me that the counselor believed the same things about S that I did when we were first dating. A hard-working Single Mom who is doing the best she can. An entrepreneur. A sensitive person who is very spiritual and can see the "inner truth" about people. I think a some of this got tossed out by the end of the session but certainly not all.
There is a second session planned for the start of December. The counselor wanted us back earlier but on the one hand I felt that we needed to work on what we were given and also scheduling just didn't work.
I did my best to keep my mouth shut and listen and try to absorb things. I also tried to make sure that my core issues with household contributions and hoarding were heard.
When asked how committed we were to the relationship on a scale of 1-10, S said without hesitation 8. I was at 3.5 and there was some obvious waffling on that number. This got no surprised reaction from anyone which given that we were in to couples counseling might make sense. I think it concerned the counselor that this early in a relationship that we were in for counseling which it certainly should.
The counselor had a standard list of couples problems. We hit pay dirt on communication and finances and perhaps on substance abuse.
S said that she didn't take anything but then accepted the correction that she regularly smokes marijuana which caused a large raised eyebrow from the therapist. Prevarication that it "helps her sleep" and that she doesn't do it too often was given.
She was surprised that there were no parenting issues and supported my "these are not my kids" comment which I think bothered S. This lead into a discussion about how I felt that S's kids that didn't live in the house were to me guests and to S and the therapist (who has a young teenager) that they were labour to be dragooned.
On communication, it was her opinion that I am over-reacting to what I feel are smack-downs and that it points to some deep-seated problems from my youth. I'm willing to give her that one. S went into some detail on how I have a very selective memory and that she tells me lots of things that I forget or ignore. What she feels are just "conversations" I am taking as "fights" and "arguments".
S did go into detail on some things - how I didn't take her into consideration and how she was upset when I did things without checking with her. Although I don't need to check with her, I need to check with her especially if she indicated some interest. And I'm a jerk for not doing that and it hurts her.
For finances, I said that I was concerned about how we were always short on money and that it had been my expectation that S would be able to bring in enough to cover the expenses of her and her kids and that jointly we would be better off. I mentioned that expenses, especially on groceries had gone waay up and that having gone from a situation where I was supporting 2 grown men with good appetites where I was able to accumulate savings for working on the house and for nice vacations, with 4 people, two of whom hardly eat I'm now continuously broke.
S asserted that she is indeed open about finances and is contributing what she can and that her income had gone down - she threw out a number I don't believe but wasn't willing to argue. Groceries were because she didn't shop like me and only buy what was needed in the next week and felt it necessary to have lots of food "just in case". This is a hill that I feel is important to recognize but not to die on.
I was asked if I needed to see her bank accounts and said that no - I didn't need to see them and that I felt it necessary to trust what I was told. S said that she has shown me her "budget book" which to me reads that she's setting money aside which other evidence points to. I see no benefit though in digging into that muck. Either she's being honest, or she's not. It shouldn't require scrutiny and I refuse to walk down that path of policing the truth.
S for her part painted me as being overly complicated with finances, went on about charts and graphs and spreadsheets (I use a commercial program YNAB) and that she doesn't understand how it's possible to budget and then not spend everything. She also said that she was upset about the fact that I insist on paying down my credit card every month, something she doesn't understand the need to do. She said that she's trying and that the systems I use make sense but that she's not embraced them.
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S said that she upset at being painted as taking advantage of me. She pointed out that if she was looking at taking advantage of someone that she would have stayed with #3 as he makes "lots of money" despite going bankrupt twice.
The therapist supported her in that echoing what was my own original impression - that S would rather live in a cardboard box than be in that situation.
I'm glad though that that comment and impression that I have that I did say was being reinforced by my friends was heard.
For background the therapist asked how long it had been since our last relationship. I said 4 years + and S said 7. That caused a bit of a jaw drop from me and I interjected that she had had an attempted reconciliation for several months and there were lots of pictures around of them having been a couple. S didn't have much of an answer to that other than to say that they were "just dating". The therapist asked about her divorce and got a bunch of noise and prevaricating.
S dredged up quite a number of things that bother her. The house is a dump and needs a huge amount of fixing which I'm refusing to do. The back porch is falling down, the kitchen floor is peeling, there's no insulation and I have no interest in replacing the windows. She was quite animated about how crappy of a place this was.
A big thing for her was that she has no separate space and started crying describing how she needs to carry her piles of paper from room to room seeking a place to "work". As an aside she only briefly got such a space at her apartment, she did get a front room from a friend for her "store" but never actually opened it but rather used it as a place to get away to. She had been planning on using the room that S18 has as "her space" but then he moved in. She is upset that she has "nothing" and I have a fixed desk, chalkboard, and bulletin board.
The therapist asked about her business and got the "I've been really busy and then Andrew told me to put all this stuff in the front porch which isn't heated and blah de blah de blah." and then the crying started (yes).
We were running out of time (had actually gone over time) when I finally was able to mention that one of the things I struggle a lot with is the sheer volume of "stuff" that showed up here. The therapist asked if there was stuff in storage and when S said no, I corrected her that there was and that a literal truck-load had arrived from her former partner's place. She minimized that. It seems that her former apartment is now 2,700 square feet and not the 2,000 that she had said. I'd have to measure it but it probably was about 1,500.
I gave a specific example of a doll-house which hasn't been played with in probably 15 years and is in the basement. S stated first that it was actively being played with and then had to walk that back but it was pretty obvious that holding on to "stuff" was an issue that the therapist pursued. I also expressed concerns that there was going to be an incoming wave of stuff from S's Dad's house which got me a confused look from S and an initial denial. Then digging a bit deeper she started crying about how they had such nice stuff and she'd spent her life living with rejects from the land-fill and just wanted to have nice stuff for a change. When prompted about giving up some of the stuff she had to make room, she was confused and pushed back on that.
So - the hoarder issue, while not specifically called that is out there.
I was also able to talk about this within the context of being suddenly overwhelmed by people and stuff and how that caused me so much stress and upset. I believe that was heard by both S and the therapist. It seemed to be a bit of an eye opener to S.
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I was able to talk about how timelines had been compressed and that I was bewildered on how everything had happened so fast. How when pushed on S wanting to help and support me I proposed 8 months ahead of plan. How the move-in was similarly rushed. I talked about how I had had a vision of the happy life I wanted but that I had had no clue how to achieve it and how it all seemed to be suddenly pushed and "happen" and that I was very confused and overwhelmed about the whole thing.
The therapist identified me (correctly I think) as a "people pleaser". I do try to make sure everyone is safe and cared for which is how she described it. To me, that's a good thing.
I also used the phrase that I had "made a promise" as a reason to stick it out and work on it. S has heard this before and rejected it - for the reasons that all the people here have as well. The therapist also rejected this as a valid reason. So that's out there too - that the main reason I'm still trying is because of a sense of responsibility and duty. Which nobody is happy about.
I asked for help on how I could just "suck it up" and accept things as they are. Again, both S and the therapist vigorously rejected this as the wrong attitude.
And yes - I know that this has all been talked about here and similarly rejected. I felt that it was important to bring my own perspective of how I've been unsuccessfully attempting to cope.
It took some effort to change topics but I was also able to talk about how this has affected my health. The idea that my chest pains are panic attacks was supported by both S and the therapist. The therapist suggested that I work on grounding techniques and such.
I was also able to talk about how I had so much pride and was happy before. The therapist encouraged me to try to rediscover the things that gave me Joy - like walking. Pride she had more troubles with. Because a lot of my self-identity is wrapped up in my pride of my contributions to the community, my work, and how I was able to keep my home up she challenged me on that. The assigned homework is to consider how I would live if I was a homeless person with no job and no way to contribute - sort of a "Tom Hanks / Castaway" thing. I joked that Wilson would be well cared for and polished.
I have no idea how I will imagine this and told both the therapist and S that they were asking me to change the very definition of who I am and of the person I like. That I would look at this closely and seriously but that I didn't have any confidence that at 56 that I would so fundamentally redefine myself.
S's homework is to start checking out organization tips including two of my favourites - Fly Lady and Marie Kondo. S has seen some of Marie Kondo and has rejected that approach to "stuff" previously. Fly Lady is great but it requires a commitment. She was also told that if one thing comes in that one thing goes out - a policy I follow carefully for myself. She was very unhappy about that and I believe has rejected that as well.
The therapist was surprised at the low frequency of our sex life and when I mentioned that S often had back pain she poo-pood that as no good reason and admonished us to make some booty. S then pushed back that there were also kids in the house.
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On the way home I made a point about talking about my Dad and how he was a kind soul who I admired but how he was pushed around and taken advantage of - in one case by a hoarder who was largely responsible for the ending of his moderately successful real estate brokerage. I tried to present this as just a story about someone who I missed but I'm sure that it was heard as an echo of what I see myself.
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S came to bed fairly early and was stiff as a board and we all (including the dog who was annoyed at the lack of space) had a poor sleep.
She is very sad today it seems and upset. I can only hope that this means that she is giving things a lot of thought.
She's here for the next few days but may well go back down to her Dad's place next week to work on getting it ready for a valuation.
I feel good that we had this session with the counselor and that I feel that I got heard. As I told S though - I'm not holding out any hope of fundamentally changing who I am - letting go of what was called "externalities" that are part of my identity and pride in self. I can't even imagine what that would be like but I will try to figure out what that means and what it would mean for me. I do quite like myself as I am and am very reluctant to give up on the person who I found post-divorce. And changing that - just to make a partner happy - means that I'm not the right person for that partner I feel.
Well - time for some lunch and perhaps a short walk.
Sounds like a lot of territory was covered in the first session. You both have homework to think about and come up with info for the next meeting. I do not think S will follow through with Fly Lady. It's too much of a way of life that she's not willing to do, i.e., bring one item home and get rid of one.
Andrew, some of the comments that S made really just rankle me. For one thing, if she needs space for herself, then she should be willing to clean up the mess that is downstairs and be able to find some space that she can work at. She can close the bedroom door and have that space to herself when you are working. Also, she knew what your house was like before moving in and to now throw up in your face how the house is...well...look at the place she was living in w/kids and animals and yes, her stuff. She's living far better now than she was.
I may be wrong in this...but S has a lot to mull over and she'll be doing a lot of that in the days to come and especially when she's at her father's place. I may be wrong, but I do not think S is going to be willing to do the hard, necessary work to make this living arrangement work. I think S is going to move out in the next 6-9 months. She's not happy w/your house, not happy about being accountable for cleaning up and going through her stuff and not happy because she's coming to realize that she can't manipulate you. She's realizing now that you are more aware of what she's got going on in the way of hoarding, etc.
Also, do not let her being a bit moody/distant get to you. She's acting like a very spoiled person at the moment and she's not happy that she's not getting her way. Just leave her be and go about your business. She'll either get over it or she'll move out.
well....that's a lot to unpack, Andrew. Thank you for doing so in an open way. I'm sure it can't be easy to lay all of this out in a vulnerable way. I will have to read it again and actually process more, but a few things stuck out to me instantly:
1.) I was under the impression this was someone that S had worked with a good bit, so finding out that wasn't the case, again points to how manipulative S can be. Not sure what she gets from that, but just another example.
2.) How can one of you be at an 8 and the other at 3.5 and one of you be surprised by that? Seriously? What world does S live in that she thinks the way she lives, despite how often you have mentioned it to her warrants an 8 but you are at less than half that? That just strikes me as her being fairly out of touch with the reality of her situation.
3.) I wonder if therapy works for someone who spends much of the time "prevaricating", as you so eloquently call lying. I mean, if she's lying about it, is she going to work to change it or is she going to hold on to the lie to keep up appearances?
4.) Did I completely miss the whole pot smoking thing before? I know I have a much squarer view of that than pretty much anyone else on the board, but to me hearing that kind of makes sense with her overall general lackadaisical attitude toward life.
5.) I'm sure that you kind of gave us the highlights, though you did share a lot of information. Likely there are some things you didn't share, mainly in the interest of brevity, but from your entire account, it seems like both S and the therapist are expecting/asking YOU to make changes while S isn't really being directed to try to make any changes within herself. I don't remember exactly how you worded it, but S was shocked (or whatever word you used) about your views of her hoarding? That surprises me, as it seems to be something you have mentioned before, though maybe not actually using the word hoarder.
You have to make the right choice for you, but her tears and dramatics would be the final nail for me, if I were in your shoes, because whether my perception of how you portrayed the whole scenario is accurate or not (and likely not completely since I wasn't actually there and my bias is toward you and against S), S comes across in this post as being pushy and dramatic when she doesn't get her way and I get the sense that she went in thinking that it was going to be her and the therapist against you and she didn't like it when it was you and the therapist against her. (Now, I'm not saying anyone "ganged up" on anyone else, because that would be unprofessional, but I do suspect that S thought she had some perceived advantage that would win the therapist over to her viewpoint more often than not.) It just seems like a big old hot mess to me. Like I said, you have to make the right choice for you. I hope you are able to do that and get some peace from all of this.
What job said!!!!!!!! I totally agree on the rankling part....that is some kind of nerve!
I do quite like myself as I am and am very reluctant to give up on the person who I found post-divorce. And changing that - just to make a partner happy - means that I'm not the right person for that partner I feel.
Amen to this. Not that every relationship doesn't take a little give and take, but at this age, I wouldn't bother to be with someone if they weren't compatible. I wouldn't even be living with CMM right now if he didn't have stage 4 lung cancer.
AS for the other stuff - it really boils down to one thing, Andrew. She's a HOARDER. Hoarders cannot bear to part with their "stuff". I don't know why on earth you didn't just use this word with the therapist present, because it's the truth of the problem. And hoarding isn't going to be fixed by reading Fly Lady. Bad housekeeping can be fixed by reading Fly Lady if someone is motivated, but not hoarding. And you don't have until December to figure this out because S was clearly planning on bringing all of her Dad's stuff to your place. I suggest you make it clear to her that it needs to go into a storage unit that SHE PAYS FOR until you get this figured out.
Also - beyond the hoarding issue (which is THE BIG ISSUE) - you two are completely financially incompatible as well. She's actually upset that you don't want to carry a balance on your credit cards? She's an irresponsible child when it comes to money matters and she'll drag you down with her if you let her. No way would I ever marry someone with those financial attitudes and risk their debts becoming my own.
Also - I know it is party of her DARVO response, but the GALL of her to complain about your rate of house repairs when so much of your time is going into cleaning up after her and her brood!!!
Again - let me use the example of my sister, not that she's on the market because she's not lol. But just as an example of what might be REASONABLE to expect from an imperfect partner.
My sister is about your age. She's not a perfect housekeeper - in fact, I'd say it was one of her weaknesses. To be fair, this was exacerbated by her working two jobs until her husband died (full time as a school secretary and 20 hours a week at Sees in order to pay off their debts in advance of her older husband's retirement). So no, her sewing room might be overrun with fabric (she's a quilter) and her floors might not be vacuumed quite as often as they ought with several cats and a dog in the home, and her kitchen isn't always immaculate. Nonetheless, she routinely makes valiant efforts to get things back to order, intermittently follows Fly Lady, and if your dropped by her house unexpectedly, it would certainly not resemble a hoarding house - just a slightly untidy home. Last weekend she spent painting the shed by brother helped construct for the lawn mower etc.Weekends s he's almost always working on a project, whether it's a quilt or some reorganizing or something to be done on the house like earlier this year when she resealed the back deck stairs. She has a bad knee and asthma but still manages to get things done. And since her husband died, she's taken over managing the finances, and has done an admirable job of planning for things like property taxes and budgeting larger purchases. While I think she's extraordinary because she's my sister, all of these parts seem like ordinary things one might expect from an ordinary, imperfect adult woman. The gap between this and what you are currently dealing with is pretty extreme, no?
Wow Andrew. That was really though to read. She took almost no accountability and then had the nerve to say you need to do all this work in YOUR house which she lives in for free while she pretty much trashed it? That’s really low. And there is no one who doesn’t know that carry zero balances on your credit cards is the RIGHT choice if it is an option. My credit car debt makes me batty and I would do anything to have zero because of the interest charges!
She is a gas lighter through and through.
Why should you change being the man who has pride in his house or providing for the community!? Why should you change those positives?
What do you feel was gained from this session?
And why did you actually ask what you could do to just “suck it up”?
Love yourself more, Andrew. Respect yourself more.
And I'll say I don't fully understand the point of the exercise the therapist gave you. Is it to try to understand what's most important to you besides the material??? I mean, you're hardly a material person anyway. You're sensible and a bit frugal - you like to take care of your things and budget and plan for expenses, which is prudent at your age and your financial state. You're not the least bit interested in keeping up with the Joneses or owning flashy expensive things - which I agree with.
Again - the main points?
Hoarder - with no insight or likely ability to change.
Financially irresponsible - again, unlikely to change at this age, and she doesn't strike me as someone who will be willing to just hand all the money over to you to manage. And notice she had nothing but excuses for her not working.
Disrespectful - not willing, actually, to take responsibility for anything. I didn't hear anything in your description of the visit of her acknowledging how lucky she is that you took her and her kids in and are pretty much supporting them. Did she thank you for that?
The good news here is that her father's unfortunate demise has given her the financial resources to move out so you don't have to feel guilty - they won't be homeless or penniless. She can find another sucker or maybe even get a job. That's her future and not yours to worry about.
Don't let this drag on too long. You're giving her a chance - and your willingness to look at your own issues speaks well of you. I think the issue you need to focus on though is not your "homework" (like I said, I seem to be missing the point of that, maybe the therapist can clarify it a bit?) but whatever childhood issues have led to you having such poor boundaries and being so willing to let someone like her walk all over you.
I agree with kml...I'm not sure what the point of the homework is, particularly if S has been given homework that she can't or won't actually give the good ole college try to complete. She's proven over and over again she isn't willing to so I'm not sure why the therapist giving as homework is going to change that. I read through again and the other thing that stuck out to me this time around, like job pointed out, is if she is in such desperate need of her own space, why doesn't she clean one up? I mean, it isn't like she's lived there for years AND she does NOT work, so why the need for all this space with a desk and such. What "papers" is she having to carry from room to room to work on? I mean, I understand the need for a private space, especially in a chaotic house with teenagers and pets, but it is almost like she is suggesting that she deserves a work space in your house when she isn't working and then being angry at you because you do have a space and are working. That little exchange screamed entitlement to me.
I have to say this....I'm a crier. I always have been. I cry when I'm sad, but also if I'm REALLY p!ssed. If we are arguing and you see tears, you should probably move far the h3ll away from me quickly. I am pretty tender hearted and I do get my feelings hurt easily too, but I am really good at masking that. Really the only time that I have a hard time masking the tears is when I'm just about to blow angry or I'm so frustrated I can't see straight. I would never do it to manipulate someone and honestly can't even make myself cry just for the sake of having tears. I have to be legitimately bothered to get there. You pointed out several examples of times during the therapy session when S turned on the waterworks. Now, since I am a crier, I totally understand that it happens at very inopportune times sometimes. Sparky and I were having a heated discussion about something not long ago and I felt the tears coming, so I quickly excused myself and told him I needed a minute and went in the other room to get myself in check. I did not want to cry and have him think I was using that to get to him when that wasn't what was happening at all. In your examples, though, S seems to be able to use it to her advantage and that worries me. It worries me for you, because I fear that you will get your head on straight and get the gumption to get her out, then she'll start with the woe is me and tears and you'll give in. You can't let her do that, though, you have admitted she has done it before. I think that speaks to G's point that she is a gaslighter.
On re-reading your homework assignment, I wonder if it isn't a poorly framed attempt to get you to see what you would like to do for YOU, outside of working on the house and taking care of other people? Maybe it would be easier to envision if you imagined living alone and having all your house repairs finished. Would you travel? Take up a hobby like photography? What would you like to be doing more of for YOU?
Also then, maybe try to see how a normal partner might enhance that life rather than interfere with it. Imagine someone who could help you with the repairs or at least keep the rest of the house in order so that you had time for it? Someone whose financial contribution to living expenses made travel a reachable goal for the two of you? Someone who actually had an INTEREST in the larger world and enthusiasm for traveling and going to museums etc.?
Also - watch for ACTIONS. Not words. See what you come home to tonight.
Look Andy if the border was open I’d come help you fix up your place. After all I wouldn’t want S and her brood to live in a hole in the wall.
I agree with Dawn, btw - I suspect her crying is less about romantic loss and more a reflex strategy that in the past has helped her to get her way.
Honestly, if I was really in love with a guy and he had all these specific concerns, I'd be busting my butt to try to do better. But I suspect she'll just be mad that you aren't "responding" to her manipulations the way she'd hoped. As a hoarder, giving up any of her stuff is not something she's willing to do. That addiction is more important to her than her relationships . Or at least more powerful.
Sounds like a lot of territory was covered in the first session. You both have homework to think about and come up with info for the next meeting. I do not think S will follow through with Fly Lady. It's too much of a way of life that she's not willing to do, i.e., bring one item home and get rid of one.
My then-wife turned me on to Fly Lady. It took her quite a long time to do more than have it be aspirational and become inspirational. The setting of small achievable goals was the part that worked best for her. And for me, having that one thing I can point to with pride such as a well shined sink helps a lot on those bad days. Marie Kondo had a lot of good insights I feel into how to think about possessions. Does it spark joy. Is your life better for having this object in it.
I may be wrong in this...but S has a lot to mull over and she'll be doing a lot of that in the days to come and especially when she's at her father's place. I may be wrong, but I do not think S is going to be willing to do the hard, necessary work to make this living arrangement work. I think S is going to move out in the next 6-9 months. She's not happy w/your house, not happy about being accountable for cleaning up and going through her stuff and not happy because she's coming to realize that she can't manipulate you. She's realizing now that you are more aware of what she's got going on in the way of hoarding, etc.
Also, do not let her being a bit moody/distant get to you. She's acting like a very spoiled person at the moment and she's not happy that she's not getting her way. Just leave her be and go about your business. She'll either get over it or she'll move out.
For me - the whole DB acting "as if" thing is where I am. She commented a couple of weeks ago that I'm the first partner she's ever had who seemed to be blasé about if she was here or not.
As far as the house goes, there's a lot that I know she's not happy about here. The fact that it was "mine" before bothers her as does anything related to my ex-wife. She really hates that it's hot in the summer and cold in the winter, , there's too much sunshine in the front rooms, that there's not nearly enough storage inside or outside etc etc etc. As bad as it sounds, I've found that if she demands something that is irreversible such as when she insisted that the pegs for hanging towels in the upstairs bathroom be sawn off, I just ignore her. She did in the first while demand that my book-case in that same bathroom be emptied which I did. And now there's little to read there and an empty book-case. She wants to take away without offering anything in it's place - something that I think describes a lot beyond this.
My impression is that she's thinking quite hard right now. As people here have cudgeled me on - I need to stay the course. Need to be honest. No pretending that things are all happy.
What I'm "hoping" for is that she has compassion and can see the damage that she is causing and will take appropriate steps to remedy that. I hate to say it, but in many ways she is like my ex-wife who was the master of the "sorry-not sorry". So I'm expecting some token short term efforts. I believe she's actually making dinner tonight instead of pushing for us to order take-out.
She says that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with someone who is only there because they made a promise or out of duty. The reality? I really don't know. Part of where I'm stuck is that I fully believe that it takes two people to make a relationship work. That it's a partnership. Ending it shouldn't be done unilaterally either. Giving the other person a chance to examine what's not working and then mutually deciding that this can be fixed or not fixed is the more honest way in my mind and one that I am ethically more comfortable with.
It would be easier if there were no kids or so many possessions involved. And if the place where I am were somewhere I would be willing to leave.
4.) Did I completely miss the whole pot smoking thing before? I know I have a much squarer view of that than pretty much anyone else on the board, but to me hearing that kind of makes sense with her overall general lackadaisical attitude toward life.
It was something that I didn't know about for quite a while until she threw her back out in the early days and I had to take care of her here. The impression at the time was that it was medically prescribed and while I don't like the substance, nor the smell I can't honestly tell someone they can't take "medicine" - which is what she refers to it as. When the therapist asked her if it was prescribed she got all cagey and changed the subject and minimized her use of it. It is only a couple of times a week at the most and usually to relax her before she would be up for doing sexy time. Something that I'd commented on that if she needed to be stoned for that .... I was assured otherwise.
One of S's traits that bothers me is how she will conceal things that she thinks will bother other people. I didn't know she was an anti-vaxxer until just a few months ago when I was talking about wanting to make sure I got my flu vaccine right as soon as I could and found out that she doesn't get one nor support her kids in getting a shot either out of a belief that they do more harm than good.
Also - I know it is party of her DARVO response, but the GALL of her to complain about your rate of house repairs when so much of your time is going into cleaning up after her and her brood!!!
Yep. It's a pattern of attack and I saw it as such immediately. She knew what the house was like. I've been transparent about how money is prioritized into necessary repairs which on this house are pretty regular. The state of the house is more a function of a lack of funds than a lack of effort. Up until a couple of years before my divorce, money was always very tight and so only the necessary things were done. If it could wait, it did wait. I don't define myself by having a fancy house with all the latest conveniences. My pride and effort were put into taking care of what I had. And to me, the difference between "wanting what you have" vs "having what you want" is pretty important.
One way that I think I've grown in is that I didn't feel any need to defend. It's factual. There's a favourite cartoon short from the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show that I've actually shared with S before. The fisherman, his wife and their "shabby but neat" life. "Be content with what you have - or - it takes more than wishes to do the dishes". It describes my attitude towards a lot of things quite well.
On re-reading your homework assignment, I wonder if it isn't a poorly framed attempt to get you to see what you would like to do for YOU, outside of working on the house and taking care of other people? Maybe it would be easier to envision if you imagined living alone and having all your house repairs finished. Would you travel? Take up a hobby like photography? What would you like to be doing more of for YOU?
I have this pretty much figured out and have for years as my retirement goals. Even before my divorce. Volunteer work in the community. There's at least one charity that I used to sit on the board of directors for that would love to have me back. Lots of chances for a guy who is handy with a screwdriver, keyboard and calculator to make a difference. I plan that in retirement that I'll be busier than I am now and loving it. This is where the concept that I would be unable to contribute and make things better outside of myself is just so incomprehensible.
Also then, maybe try to see how a normal partner might enhance that life rather than interfere with it.
Cats. Lots and lots of cats (and by that I would mean maybe 2). People are too much trouble.
Someone who actually had an INTEREST in the larger world and enthusiasm for traveling and going to museums etc.?
I think that if someone says they are interested in going for long walks or to museums that they will need to show me ticket stubs first before I will believe them
Oh - and I missed one of the key things in S's homework. "Write out Andrew's inner truth". Can she actually see me as I am, or as she wants me to be? The counselor was pushing for S to use her ability to do psychic readings on me.
PS - S mentioned to me today that she has some money "set aside" for "bills related to her Dad's place" and that she might be able to contribute more to the household budget if she gets his banking sorted out. Sigh.
PS - S mentioned to me today that she has some money "set aside" for "bills related to her Dad's place" and that she might be able to contribute more to the household budget if she gets his banking sorted out. Sigh.
Do y'all have this saying up north, Andrew: "the proof is in the pudding". Sometimes I take sayings that I assume are common and realize that they are very Southern indeed and people just think I'm nuts. My point here, as we have all said MANY times, actions speak louder than words. She can SAY it all she wants, but until she forks over money, then it is just empty promise.
As far as the house goes, there's a lot that I know she's not happy about here. The fact that it was "mine" before bothers her as does anything related to my ex-wife. She really hates that it's hot in the summer and cold in the winter, , there's too much sunshine in the front rooms, that there's not nearly enough storage inside or outside etc etc etc.
The phrase "beggars can't be choosers" comes to mind!!! The fact that she aspires to a fancier lifestyle while doing nothing whatsoever herself to earn money speaks to an incredibly entitled mind. Now, if she really didn't like the house and was earning enough income herself that your combined incomes could comfortably pay for a more comfortable home - or to remodel your home - that's be one thing. But her expecting you to foot rather large remodeling bills - or a larger new mortgage- without any contribution towards that on her part seems pretty cheeky. (Granted, there are women out there whose whole life operates on the premise that men should be "daddy" and take care of them in the manner to which they would like to be accustomed. Most of those women though at least bring fake boobs and bleached hair and short skirts as their end of the bargain lol).
Also - NO place will ever have enough storage for a hoarder. She simply cannot see the link between all the junk that she brought with her and the current "lack" of storage. She wants enough storage to be able to keep every single thing AND bring all her father's things AND keep buying things.
There were a number of times you said you didn't want to correct a 'prevarication' or explore an untruth during that session because it would get messy. Isn't that the whole point of being there?
Whilst I was gobsmacked at her preference for paying extortionate interest on maxed out credit cards, I was truly mystified as to why you don't want to know how much S has been able to save since she's been with you. If finances truly are a bone of contention, why don't you want to see the full, true picture?
The moaning about the house made me laugh out loud. Seriously? Her sense of entitlement is truly spectacular.
As for your homework, I agree that it's an invitation to look into you, and what you truly want. That's what I'd expect a counsellor who has tagged a participant as a 'people pleaser' to do. I think she's planning on unveiling the 'real Andrew' over the course of the counselling. S is going to get the choice then to accept you as you are or to agree that things just can't work. What do you hope it to be?
It's not really S's choice, is it? If left up to S she would manipulate and badger Andrew into extraordinary debt, fill his house to the rafters with junk, then move on with another guy. Seems to be her pattern, no?
I think what you need to look at Andrew, is that this is not going to work. I understand that you want to be fair and give her a chance to step up to the plate but NOTHING about her responses in therapy hint that she's capable. Sure, she might cook you dinner tonight and she might even make a feeble attempt at cleaning up. But without serious professional help addressing her hoarding - and a WILLINGNESS to get help which she lacks - nothing is going to fundamentally change. Nor is her approach to finances likely to ever be compatible with yours.
And btw - I'd suggest you just drop a line to the counselor and tell her "I don't know why I couldn't bring myself to say the word in counseling, but we are talking about hoarding here, not just sloppy housekeeping."
(Pretty sure that if the therapist understood it was a hoarding situation, she would also be realizing that Marie Kondo ain't gonna fix this.)
I did mention hoarding prominently on the intake form.
She seemed to be watching for a reaction to her suggestions. And what she got was textbook hoarding speak. As a professional I would imagine that she would prefer her own diagnosis.
It's going to be a difficult time of things. Walking the path where I am true to my own moral code where I am looking for a mutual respectful decision on what's going to happen may not be possible. And that bothers me.
As DejaVu pointed out as well, my inability to act is undoubtedly doing more harm than good. But I also recognize that I don't know everything and just because I am unable to see a path to a happy future with S doesn't preclude one from existing. But I am unable to find it, just like when we were dating and things just got shoved along.
That is perhaps where I need step back to. Recognizing that I don't see the path and asking for directions either to one destination or another. Recognizing that one answer may indeed be "You can't get there from here"
Well, what are her actions showing you? Did you come home to a home cooked meal and clear signs of her working on cleaning or decluttering?
Seriously - what would a path to a happy future together look like? To me, it seems that this would require:
- She admits she has a hoarding problem and seeks professional help for that.
- She is SUCCESSFUL with that professional help (a big giant IF)
- She changes a lifetime of attitudes around money to become a responsible adult.
There may be many other things that you both could do to arrive at that destination but without these three things NONE of the rest really matters.
And as for HER happiness - she likely thinks that she would be much happier with somebody who is willing to live with her hoarding and spend their way into bankruptcy with her, than with someone who is responsibly thinking about her financial security in the future. WE may think that's stupid, but that may be the way her mind operates - in which case, she's never gonna be happy with you either.
In asking later it turned out that S had only seen her once or twice and it was around when we started dating. I had the impression that she'd been seeing this person for years but like many things, the reality is a lot thinner than the story-line.
red flag #1
It was pretty plain to me that the counselor believed the same things about S that I did when we were first dating. A hard-working Single Mom who is doing the best she can. An entrepreneur. A sensitive person who is very spiritual and can see the "inner truth" about people. I think a some of this got tossed out by the end of the session but certainly not all.
red flag #2
I did my best to keep my mouth shut and listen and try to absorb things. I also tried to make sure that my core issues with household contributions and hoarding were heard.
Good. I know that was hard. I'm proud of you.
The counselor had a standard list of couples problems. We hit pay dirt on communication and finances and perhaps on substance abuse.
S said that she didn't take anything but then accepted the correction that she regularly smokes marijuana which caused a large raised eyebrow from the therapist. Prevarication that it "helps her sleep" and that she doesn't do it too often was given.
Red flag #3 to def con 3:
Well. Now. There's a little tidbit you've been keeping close to the vest. S is self deluded so I would really, REALLY explore "she doesn't do it too often" to dig into what the actual reality of that is. Regularly smoking and not too often are pretty far apart. Denial about that is curious to me, as it could point to a bigger underlying problem, which will affect you far more than you realize. Plenty of people indulge from time to time. Those are people whose indulgences do not have a serious negative impact on their lives or the lives of those around them. She exhibits some classic "stoner" traits: sloth, laziness, lack of motivation or ambition, unemployability, etc. The hoarding of junk food. This is not what a casual pot smoker exhibits. I stand by my prior suggestion of checking out some zoom Alanon meetings. See if anything resonates with you.
On communication, it was her opinion that I am over-reacting to what I feel are smack-downs and that it points to some deep-seated problems from my youth. I'm willing to give her that one. S went into some detail on how I have a very selective memory and that she tells me lots of things that I forget or ignore. What she feels are just "conversations" I am taking as "fights" and "arguments".
Since I am largely unimpressed or concerned with anything S says at this point, since she would tell you snow is purple if it suited her, I almost deleted that sentence. I chose to leave it in in case there actually might be something there worth examining to uncover these deep-seated problems from your youth. This is an opportunity, Andrew, for you to uncover those more thoroughly and do some real healing work for yourself, separate from this, or any, relationship. I hope you see this opportunity and use it to your advantage.
S asserted that she is indeed open about finances and is contributing what she can and that her income had gone down - she threw out a number I don't believe but wasn't willing to argue.
I was asked if I needed to see her bank accounts and said that no - I didn't need to see them and that I felt it necessary to trust what I was told. S said that she has shown me her "budget book" which to me reads that she's setting money aside which other evidence points to. I see no benefit though in digging into that muck. Either she's being honest, or she's not. It shouldn't require scrutiny and I refuse to walk down that path of policing the truth.
Def con 2:
Really? Your refusal to "walk down that path of policing the truth" confuses me greatly. You know she's got $3k at least socked away. You don't want to rat her out on it (your own untruth) ... yet don't take the opportunity to truly bring it out into the open???? How do you expect money issues to be resolved if there isn't 100% transparency on both sides? I think you didn't want to have to deal with it, even though that was the perfect opportunity to do so in a controlled environment with suggestions of how to improve communication around it. How committed are you to this exercise of couple's therapy? You can re-visit this in a future session and I certainly hope you do so.
S for her part painted me as being overly complicated with finances, went on about charts and graphs and spreadsheets (I use a commercial program YNAB) and that she doesn't understand how it's possible to budget and then not spend everything. She also said that she was upset about the fact that I insist on paying down my credit card every month, something she doesn't understand the need to do. She said that she's trying and that the systems I use make sense but that she's not embraced them.
Honestly - I don't see this issue ever getting resolved between you.
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S said that she upset at being painted as taking advantage of me. She pointed out that if she was looking at taking advantage of someone that she would have stayed with #3 as he makes "lots of money" despite going bankrupt twice.
It would be very, very interesting to see if #3's financial picture improved post relationship with S. Too easy to say he went bankrupt twice on his own. She was a willing and able participant, I'm sure.
The therapist supported her in that echoing what was my own original impression - that S would rather live in a cardboard box than be in that situation.
I'm glad though that that comment and impression that I have that I did say was being reinforced by my friends was heard.
And yet, for all her protestations of living in a cardboard box rather than taking advantage of someone aside - the facts on the ground belie that statement. Her actions in hiding money belie that statement. A simple trip to the cafe resulting in your spending $4 on yourself and several times that on her belies that statement. Do you see where I'm going with this???
For background the therapist asked how long it had been since our last relationship. I said 4 years + and S said 7. That caused a bit of a jaw drop from me and I interjected that she had had an attempted reconciliation for several months and there were lots of pictures around of them having been a couple. S didn't have much of an answer to that other than to say that they were "just dating". The therapist asked about her divorce and got a bunch of noise and prevaricating.
DEF CON 1, Nuclear alarm sirens screaming into the airwaves and over the inter webs ...
Andrew, S was not the only one prevaricating here. You were most certainly in a relationship with someone just prior to getting together with S ... Why has no one else bothered to point this out? What about B???? She LIVED WITH YOU! She moved in quickly and you claimed to love each other. Come on Andrew, this is not being disingenuous, this is being actually disrespectful to your relationship with B and also harmful to YOU, because frankly it speaks to YOUR patterns in relationship, which are just as important, if not more so, than S's. More so because we are all invested in you, not S, and if you are ever to have a healthy relationship WITH YOURSELF (never mind anyone else) you need to understand your patterns and change what doesn't work!!!!
I'm thoroughly gobsmacked by the fact that you left B out. Forget about S's lies. Focus on your own.
S dredged up quite a number of things that bother her. The house is a dump and needs a huge amount of fixing which I'm refusing to do. The back porch is falling down, the kitchen floor is peeling, there's no insulation and I have no interest in replacing the windows. She was quite animated about how crappy of a place this was.
"Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya".
So this home, that was your pride and joy, is a dump ... she's living there FREE, storing her copious amounts of stuff FREE, dumping responsibility for her pets on you, and even her responsibilities for her kids on you where and when she can (driving her S18 about, etc). That's beyond cheek, in my book - them's fighting words.
A big thing for her was that she has no separate space and started crying describing how she needs to carry her piles of paper from room to room seeking a place to "work". As an aside she only briefly got such a space at her apartment, she did get a front room from a friend for her "store" but never actually opened it but rather used it as a place to get away to. She had been planning on using the room that S18 has as "her space" but then he moved in. She is upset that she has "nothing" and I have a fixed desk, chalkboard, and bulletin board.
IT'S YOUR HOME.
SHE MOVED IN.
YOU ARE GAINFULLY EMPLOYED, AND THE $$$ YOU EARN PUTS FOOD IN HER AND HER KIDS' (AND PROBABLY PETS') MOUTHS.
THIS MAKES ME APOPLECTIC.
The therapist asked about her business and got the "I've been really busy and then Andrew told me to put all this stuff in the front porch which isn't heated and blah de blah de blah." and then the crying started (yes).
The is no "business" she is a charlatan, delusional and a discredit to the very real, gifted healers who work hard to make a difference in this world.
We were running out of time (had actually gone over time) when I finally was able to mention that one of the things I struggle a lot with is the sheer volume of "stuff" that showed up here. The therapist asked if there was stuff in storage and when S said no, I corrected her that there was and that a literal truck-load had arrived from her former partner's place. She minimized that. It seems that her former apartment is now 2,700 square feet and not the 2,000 that she had said. I'd have to measure it but it probably was about 1,500.
I gave a specific example of a doll-house which hasn't been played with in probably 15 years and is in the basement. S stated first that it was actively being played with and then had to walk that back but it was pretty obvious that holding on to "stuff" was an issue that the therapist pursued. I also expressed concerns that there was going to be an incoming wave of stuff from S's Dad's house which got me a confused look from S and an initial denial. Then digging a bit deeper she started crying about how they had such nice stuff and she'd spent her life living with rejects from the land-fill and just wanted to have nice stuff for a change. When prompted about giving up some of the stuff she had to make room, she was confused and pushed back on that.
So - the hoarder issue, while not specifically called that is out there.
Good. Miss Hoarder McHoardypants needs to be exposed.
I was also able to talk about this within the context of being suddenly overwhelmed by people and stuff and how that caused me so much stress and upset. I believe that was heard by both S and the therapist. It seemed to be a bit of an eye opener to S.
I bolded the part that made my eyebrow go waaaaay up into my hairline but quoted the entire piece for context ... Why. Is. This.. An. Eye. Opener. To. Her. When. You've. Been. Talking. About. It. FOREVER? Yes, I am actively grinding my teeth as I typed that.
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I was able to talk about how timelines had been compressed and that I was bewildered on how everything had happened so fast. How when pushed on S wanting to help and support me I proposed 8 months ahead of plan. How the move-in was similarly rushed. I talked about how I had had a vision of the happy life I wanted but that I had had no clue how to achieve it and how it all seemed to be suddenly pushed and "happen" and that I was very confused and overwhelmed about the whole thing.
How much richer this picture would have been had the therapist known about B, your relationship, recent breakup, etc and how swiftly S moved in on you. Bring it up next session, is my suggestion.
The therapist identified me (correctly I think) as a "people pleaser". I do try to make sure everyone is safe and cared for which is how she described it. To me, that's a good thing.
It most certainly, absolutely, unequivocally is NOT a "good thing" and frankly, does no one any good. Here's a valuable homework assignment for you Andrew - do a quick internet search on the term "people pleaser" ... learn what it really means and what the unintended consequences of people pleasing are to the people pleaser and those around him/her.
I also used the phrase that I had "made a promise" as a reason to stick it out and work on it. S has heard this before and rejected it - for the reasons that all the people here have as well. The therapist also rejected this as a valid reason. So that's out there too - that the main reason I'm still trying is because of a sense of responsibility and duty. Which nobody is happy about.
and only you accept. I'd take a look at that as well. Why are you the only person who accepts this? What are you getting out of it, really? Dig deeper.
I asked for help on how I could just "suck it up" and accept things as they are. Again, both S and the therapist vigorously rejected this as the wrong attitude.
Finally, something I agree with S on - shocking, I know.
And yes - I know that this has all been talked about here and similarly rejected. I felt that it was important to bring my own perspective of how I've been unsuccessfully attempting to cope.
It took some effort to change topics but I was also able to talk about how this has affected my health. The idea that my chest pains are panic attacks was supported by both S and the therapist. The therapist suggested that I work on grounding techniques and such.
good.
I was also able to talk about how I had so much pride and was happy before. The therapist encouraged me to try to rediscover the things that gave me Joy - like walking. Pride she had more troubles with. Because a lot of my self-identity is wrapped up in my pride of my contributions to the community, my work, and how I was able to keep my home up she challenged me on that. The assigned homework is to consider how I would live if I was a homeless person with no job and no way to contribute - sort of a "Tom Hanks / Castaway" thing. I joked that Wilson would be well cared for and polished.
I have no idea how I will imagine this and told both the therapist and S that they were asking me to change the very definition of who I am and of the person I like. That I would look at this closely and seriously but that I didn't have any confidence that at 56 that I would so fundamentally redefine myself.
I think, Andrew, the point is simply this: if you had nothing of material value to contribute, what then would you do? I think it's a valuable exercise in stripping down to basics your core values and competencies and is worth an effort on your part.
S's homework is to start checking out organization tips including two of my favourites - Fly Lady and Marie Kondo. S has seen some of Marie Kondo and has rejected that approach to "stuff" previously. Fly Lady is great but it requires a commitment. She was also told that if one thing comes in that one thing goes out - a policy I follow carefully for myself. She was very unhappy about that and I believe has rejected that as well.
Come on. Seriously? This woman is going to therapy because it's easier than making the actual changes necessary to make this relationship work. This is patently obvious to me. I'm sorry.
The therapist was surprised at the low frequency of our sex life and when I mentioned that S often had back pain she poo-pood that as no good reason and admonished us to make some booty. S then pushed back that there were also kids in the house.
Presumably there were always kids in the house previously which led to there being more kids in the house. With the absolute neglect (benign or otherwise) that she exhibits towards her children this is the flimsiest of excuses, to say the least.
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On the way home I made a point about talking about my Dad and how he was a kind soul who I admired but how he was pushed around and taken advantage of - in one case by a hoarder who was largely responsible for the ending of his moderately successful real estate brokerage. I tried to present this as just a story about someone who I missed but I'm sure that it was heard as an echo of what I see myself.
You have mentioned this so very many times I wish you would actually work with your own IC on this and what it really means to you. I think it would help you personally quite a lot.
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S came to bed fairly early and was stiff as a board and we all (including the dog who was annoyed at the lack of space) had a poor sleep.
She is very sad today it seems and upset. I can only hope that this means that she is giving things a lot of thought.
She's here for the next few days but may well go back down to her Dad's place next week to work on getting it ready for a valuation.
My bet is she leaves for there much earlier than expected.
I feel good that we had this session with the counselor and that I feel that I got heard. As I told S though - I'm not holding out any hope of fundamentally changing who I am - letting go of what was called "externalities" that are part of my identity and pride in self. I can't even imagine what that would be like but I will try to figure out what that means and what it would mean for me.
I don't think that's what the exercise was about. Your resistance to this I think makes this worth exploring further. Just why are you so resistant to it?
I do quite like myself as I am and am very reluctant to give up on the person who I found post-divorce. And changing that - just to make a partner happy - means that I'm not the right person for that partner I feel.
Correct, but that's not why you are so resistant to it, I'd bet.
I believe the many differences between you are not resolvable. Take this opportunity to dig deeper, learn more about yourself and your patterns in relationships and do some real healing so that when you and your two cats get together you'll be much happier and more satisfied with your life, enough maybe to actually include a lovely, willing partner who is truly available to meet you in a way you not only want but deserve.
Andrew,
I am right there 100% w/all of the posters. One thing that continues to bug me is that S has a sibling and she needs to be working w/him on their father's estate, i.e., paying the bills, cleaning the house, putting said house up for sale/rent, removing furniture, etc. She is not an only child and no matter what she tells you about having extra money later after paying father's bills...if that extra money is coming from the estimate, she better darn well work w/her brother or he may very well have a say in taking her to court over this stuff. But, S may not even be thinking about all of that.
Actions speak louder than words and until she's sat down, gone through all of that stuff and either donated items to charity or taken stuff to the dump, it's just going to continue to pile up and collect dust.
As for your home, your salary is currently paying your xw off, taking not only care of you, but groceries for 4, utilities, etc., but the upkeep on your car as well. Money doesn't stretch as far as it use to. You can't just drop a bunch of money on home repairs and/or take out a loan and put all of that on a charge card. Home repairs cost big bucks. As I stated earlier, she knew what your house was like and she could have said "no" and not moved in. Seriously, she reminds me of "B" wanting to purchase another home w/you and moving out of your current one. I don't get these two women at all. They both had been in your home and knew what the place was like. S's complaints need to be taken w/a grain of salt. I seriously would have told her "there's the door, don't let it hit you on the @ss when leaving".
Look, I'm going to be brutally honest here...she needs to go. S18 may want to stay w/you since he's got issues w/his mother, but S, S13 and all of those animals need to go as well as all of that stuff she brought w/her. If she stays, all of the stuff that is not being used and currently boxed up needs to go to a storage facility and yes, Andrew, she pays the monthly rental fee. It is time to wake S up and give her a good taste of reality and if she doesn't like it, she can leave.
I am sorry that she pursued you and put the pressure on you about everything. But the one thing that I am really sorry about...that she moved in when she did. It's true that you don't really get to know someone until you live together....but you had a preview of what she was like when she lived in the other place. She talks a good game, doesn't accept blame for much of anything and yet has the nerve to point fingers at you. She's not going to change because she is so use to living the way she is and hoarding is an illness and very difficult to overcome, if ever. She is a spoiled woman who is selfish and wants everything her way or no way.
If she continues to sulk...leave her be. She'll either get over it or she will fester...but whatever she does or doesn't do, you have given this relationship your all...now it's time for her to sh!t or get off the pot. Remember...actions speak louder than words.
((( Andrew )))
How i wish things were different...
S makes me angry and i am not the one living with her
She is in NO position to complain about YOUR HOME, YOUR WAY OF LIVING.
She is the one who wanted this sooooo quickly.
What is keeping her from earning a salary and fix this place she now calls " A DUMP ?? "
She has alot of nerves. She is FULL OF EXCUSES and will never GROW-UP.
With everything you have learned about her, do you really believe that the ex who had 2 bankrupty did so without S' s
involvement? To fulfill her demands and lack of responsabilities or to cut strings on providing for her and her crue?
She cannot accept responsabilities nor consequences for her choices and NON-ACTIONS!!
i said it before, she is a victim ( poor little me ) and manipulate to make everyone around her do everything for her. If they no longer do, she moves on to the next.. and the next.. and the next..
How many marriages so far? How many dads to her kids? How many jobs? Does she even have a work experience?
Time for S to grow-up and face the consequences of HER OWN!!!!!
But sadly, i don' t believe it will happen because there are good people out there and she knows how to find them and infiltrate herself in...
As for the transparency of the finance: tell me again how you discovered her HIDDEN STASH? in my opinion, that " stash" is as much yours as it is hers. While YOU PAY, SHE SAVES??? NO NO NO
YOU BOTH PAY AND YOU BOTH SAVE..
What kind of relationship is this?
Get out Andrew.. You need to set the record straight. She will be just fine. She knows how to play the game.
Hello Andrew,
I've had to step away because of my situation but have been following along. I'm sorry that you are where you are and sorry that it feels so difficult to get out. I know first-hand the pain that comes from waiting for someone else to call the end to it. In my case it has dragged on a very long time, and I think that we kid ourselves that waiting makes it easier or less painful, it doesn't, just more complicated. What you have described is not a life partner, it is someone who knows how to work it to get by. And while in some situations that could be admirable, the way it is being executed here is not. Having lived through the times I have, I continue to value peace above all else. I suspect that you realize now the value of the peace you had, but it is not too late to reclaim it. Regardless of what you do, and when you do it, please know that there are those who care about you so very much and long for the days of your regular updates filled with the wonderful details of a quiet and quaint life lived on one's own terms.
OwnIt! We miss you! Hoping for an update sometime.
Andrew - what's the update on last night? What did you come home to?
Thanks everyone. I actually started typing a response early this morning when I got to the plant.
Crazy, crazy day here at the plant. Trying to get 5 days worth of on-site work done in one along with what usually fills up my day plus a number of things going sideways as they often do. Fortunately I work with great people. Most people who know me personally would imagine that any sort of upset of a carefully laid plan would throw me but that's what I deal with every day at work and find it interesting and challenging. I think my ex-wife understood that about me though. It's not the things going wrong that bothers me - it's the feeling of loss of control. Which is why I love go-carts but hate roller-coasters. Probably says a lot about me right there.
Wow bttrfly - thanks for taking the time on this. You've certainly given me things to think about.
Red flag #3 to def con 3:
Well. Now. There's a little tidbit you've been keeping close to the vest. S is self deluded so I would really, REALLY explore "she doesn't do it too often" to dig into what the actual reality of that is. Regularly smoking and not too often are pretty far apart. Denial about that is curious to me, as it could point to a bigger underlying problem, which will affect you far more than you realize. Plenty of people indulge from time to time. Those are people whose indulgences do not have a serious negative impact on their lives or the lives of those around them. She exhibits some classic "stoner" traits: sloth, laziness, lack of motivation or ambition, unemployability, etc. The hoarding of junk food. This is not what a casual pot smoker exhibits. I stand by my prior suggestion of checking out some zoom Alanon meetings. See if anything resonates with you.
I suppose I should look more into Alanon. I do know that it's not very regular at all from some perspectives but the amount that I know about marijauna consumption could be written on a rolling paper. What she said about only a couple of times a week does match what I see. The bit that bothers me was that I had thought that it was doctor recommended but instead appears to be self-medication. The other traits I think are pretty long-standing habits that go way way back. She's never had a full time paying job since her 20s but having a posse of kids is a pretty full time job and then some. Although she did rely on them quite heavily for a lot of the day to day tasks well beyond just "chores". I would imagine that when her oldest moved out that things really took a nose-dive based on what I've heard about how she took care of things for her mother.
Since I am largely unimpressed or concerned with anything S says at this point, since she would tell you snow is purple if it suited her, I almost deleted that sentence. I chose to leave it in in case there actually might be something there worth examining to uncover these deep-seated problems from your youth. This is an opportunity, Andrew, for you to uncover those more thoroughly and do some real healing work for yourself, separate from this, or any, relationship. I hope you see this opportunity and use it to your advantage.
It is something that I will need to work on - among other things like being a door-mat. Personally I think it doesn't stem from my youth but rather from my marriage. On the other hand my room-mate in University was a psychology major that I nick-named "Doc" because he felt that I was a whole DSM on my own. My over-reacting is certainly a thing. Oddly it doesn't affect my personal or professional life and if I recall, didn't with B either. Only with my ex-wife and S who have I think similar patterns of communication.
It would be very, very interesting to see if #3's financial picture improved post relationship with S. Too easy to say he went bankrupt twice on his own. She was a willing and able participant, I'm sure.
He makes a chunk more money than I do. Not a huge amount more but a good amount. His finances are a complete disaster as far as I know. He lives in rentals at one point saying that he was going to live in a tent. He totaled his car last year and is still paying it off and can't afford another one. When they were married he was a "consultant" but after they divorced got a "real job" so that he could be close to the kids. It sounds creepy but S18 was telling me that he would often move to whatever town S was in whenever she moved.
He actually texted S a couple of days ago suggesting that he stop paying now that she has come into money - I do believe that S rightly feels that the world is spinning in the wrong direction for her at present. I do believe that he lives paycheque to paycheque but I do know too though that he'll have a decent pension when he retires which I know he would like to do.
I'm thoroughly gobsmacked by the fact that you left B out. Forget about S's lies. Focus on your own.
:P - The question was about how long since we were "divorced" but your point is well taken and valid.
IT'S YOUR HOME.
SHE MOVED IN.
YOU ARE GAINFULLY EMPLOYED, AND THE $$$ YOU EARN PUTS FOOD IN HER AND HER KIDS' (AND PROBABLY PETS') MOUTHS.
THIS MAKES ME APOPLECTIC.
It was an attack in her usual pattern. Deny / Accuse / Reverse Victim.
Easier than facing that there "should" be oodles of space for a family of 4. There certainly used to be. And for some time both my wife and I worked from home. Certainly she didn't have the separate "crafting room" that S wants but we managed.
The is no "business" she is a charlatan, delusional and a discredit to the very real, gifted healers who work hard to make a difference in this world.
Indeed. The fact that in the more than a year that I've known her she's not done anything other than suggest garlic pills to help battle my leg infection is certainly telling. Heck, I'd be happy if she ran around the house in her all-together whacking things with a voo-doo stick to get rid of bad sprits. And I'm the skeptic here - although I do believe in energy flows. Which also makes the fact that I refer to environments as "dark" and that the energy isn't flowing in a healthy way not seeming to be important to her weird.
I was also able to talk about this within the context of being suddenly overwhelmed by people and stuff and how that caused me so much stress and upset. I believe that was heard by both S and the therapist.
I bolded the part that made my eyebrow go waaaaay up into my hairline but quoted the entire piece for context ... Why. Is. This.. An. Eye. Opener. To. Her. When. You've. Been. Talking. About. It. FOREVER? Yes, I am actively grinding my teeth as I typed that.
Goes back to the point above as well. S sees this I think in a very simplistic fashion - that her stuff isn't put away - which is only just part of it. Even the fact that I have had what I now believe are panic attacks over the stress doesn't seem to be noticed - despite me saying yesterday - "I think I had a panic attack an hour or so ago". And I've been telling her for quite some time that I'm not sleeping well and lately that I have insomnia and the stress is hard on me.
How much richer this picture would have been had the therapist known about B, your relationship, recent breakup, etc and how swiftly S moved in on you. Bring it up next session, is my suggestion.
Yep - I need to own my own - er - animal excrement (waves to job before she presses the censored button
) Although it is top of mind to me that this woman is being paid by the hour and is not covered by my health plan.
It most certainly, absolutely, unequivocally is NOT a "good thing" and frankly, does no one any good. Here's a valuable homework assignment for you Andrew - do a quick internet search on the term "people pleaser" ... learn what it really means and what the unintended consequences of people pleasing are to the people pleaser and those around him/her.
More homework .....
I think, Andrew, the point is simply this: if you had nothing of material value to contribute, what then would you do? I think it's a valuable exercise in stripping down to basics your core values and competencies and is worth an effort on your part.
More homework - really??
Presumably there were always kids in the house previously which led to there being more kids in the house. With the absolute neglect (benign or otherwise) that she exhibits towards her children this is the flimsiest of excuses, to say the least.
Yep - she seemed to not be bothered too much by "my" son in the next room. It's an excuse.
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My bet is she leaves for there much earlier than expected.
That's where the smart money seems to be in a couple of scenarios. I know she has to go down there for a day or so in the middle of next week.
She is the one who wanted this sooooo quickly.
She does rightly throw that back at me though as I am the one who asked her to get engaged. And she said she was confused when I talked about us moving in together but wouldn't set a date for that.
As for the transparency of the finance: tell me again how you discovered her HIDDEN STASH? in my opinion, that " stash" is as much yours as it is hers. While YOU PAY, SHE SAVES??? NO NO NO
YOU BOTH PAY AND YOU BOTH SAVE..
It was just basic math based on the income and expense numbers that I know that she had shown me. The amount she contributes is just a bit higher than what she used to pay in rent alone.
The amount she contributes is just a bit higher than what she used to pay in rent alone.
Although, to be fair, she no longer receives child support for S18, correct?
Honestly, I don't quite understand the sources of her income anyway. I'm assuming child support for S13. But was she married long enough to any of her past spouses to still be collecting alimony from any of them? I know you said she was "too proud" to take government assistance but I really can't understand what she has been living on without that. Remind me again, what's your understanding of her income sources?
Andrew my dear, that Lonnnnnnng post from me is an example of what those who know me irl are subjected to when I get a bit, shall we say, "Italian" about something. Yes, Andrew. More homework. I think you will find it helpful. And a final assignment to help with the stress --- guided meditations from excel at life courtesy of our very own Roist ... google it - there's an entire list of audios on the left frame scrolling down to help with relaxation.
My most favorite and healing though is the loving kindness meditation. Saved my bacon more than a time or two.
Thank you for being open to the comments. I know it's not easy.
xoxo
and re the "not very regular" and self medicated vs prescribed ... you know, it's not the amount or frequency. It is the effect on self and those around one. Her life is pretty unmanageable (although that's for her to admit to and do something about) and it's unfortunately making yours unmanageable also. The suggestion is try 6 different meetings. We can talk more about this elsewhere. You know where to find me.
Thx {{bttrfly}} - I have a weakness for Italians
I still remember B and I having a rather loud "discussion" and me calling back to her mother "We're not fighting - we're communicating" or something like that.
Some of the things that bothered me back then certainly are small potatoes compared to what I've got now. It still wouldn't have worked out between us but I do still think of her fondly. I've not heard from or about her other than she went back to her husband when he got sick and seems to have stayed there. I hope she's doing well - that was a pretty unhealthy relationship. There are things about her that I certainly miss - even her continuous chatter and perhaps not surprisingly her mother who was a doll - and a rather formidable woman at I believe 94 now. I keep a bit of a watch for an obituary which may be morbid but inevitable.
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I had a nice dinner with my best friend last night who administered several no-holds barred kicks at me. It seems that his wife also refers to S as a "predator". He also is very strong in his belief that I need to end this sooner rather than later - 6 months ago being his preference.
Weird weird weird dreams last night. So incredibly vivid - I recall a few times thinking "I really need to get some sleep" - and then waking up enough to realize that I was. Again a very awkward time in bed - S just "stiff" although she did seem to fall asleep fairly quickly when she did eventually get into bed around 1:30.
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Andrew - what's the update on last night? What did you come home to?
I was actually home all day Wednesday and S made one of her standard dinners. Pasta and sauce out of a can. Any Italians reading that would be horrified
Pretty high sodium but tasty enough. S left everything out on the stove for S18 but did actually put the left-over noodles and sauce away. Some frozen vegetables she had steamed are still in the pot 2 days later.
Well - S is giving it a try but she's not happy about it
She's done quite a bit of "putting away" and organizing today as well. I don't think it's sustainable. She even washed many of the dishes (left in the drying rack). She has some sort of chicken dish planned for tonight it seems - probably about 4 times the amount of meat needed is defrosting presently.
I was unsurprised when the garbage that I put out on Wednesday night was roughly 1/3 of what it was with S here full time.
At lunch today we spent a bit of time going over the books and what the spending is expected to be for the next week and through the end of the month and what our margin is. She had also sent over another few hundred dollars that she "had saved but didn't need" which helps.
Although, to be fair, she no longer receives child support for S18, correct?
Honestly, I don't quite understand the sources of her income anyway. I'm assuming child support for S13. But was she married long enough to any of her past spouses to still be collecting alimony from any of them? I know you said she was "too proud" to take government assistance but I really can't understand what she has been living on without that. Remind me again, what's your understanding of her income sources?
S gets child support and a smaller amount of spousal support plus the government benefit. The latter is what got cut and it's not nearly as big of a number as she let on.
Given the direction that things appear to be going, I'm certainly not going to raise a big stink about it.
Some more documents showed up that I saw and she'll shortly have access to a good chunk of liquid cash cashing out the balance of her parents' pensions on top of the insurance money. Certainly lots enough to get an apartment and pay for that for a few months without dipping into anything else. It turns out that her D19 and boyfriend have been living in the house for the last week as well. They are what I think of as "taker" personalities with no jobs - something that it's become apparent that S is as well.
S has said that she's going back to her Dad's place probably sometime Sunday and will be down there all week again. Hopefully this time she takes the dog. That will make it 4 weeks roughly since she's been here regularly. She does have a number of legitimate reasons to be down there related to medical appointments for her daughter and things related to the estate.
S has said that she's glanced at some of her reading homework but that it doesn't mean a lot to her. I've done a little on mine, done a bit of reading on how to deal with panic although perhaps stress attack is maybe a better definition. My friend that I had dinner with completely agrees with that diagnosis as well. I did try the steroid inhaler my doctor gave me and it did seem to have a minor impact. I've done a lot more thinking as well as talking to S about what I was assigned - she has no input. I think though to look deeply at my inner self is something that perhaps I've not done enough of lately. I've been in a cloud of unhappiness for a while and have lost touch with that part of myself.
So - we continue on. Things are now in play and out in the open for me to be more honest than I have been. I really don't think that S has the will to try heroic efforts to "win me back" because you would imagine that if she did that she would be doing a lot more. She knows she has the ability to charm me and while I still will give her a hug if she looks like she needs one she's not seeking me out for attention or affection. I'm expecting another night with a mannequin tonight again. I've made sure to notice what she's accomplished but there's no excitement of "I'm on a roll" or "oohh - look at me being a domestic diva". Just the grinding along you would expect of a teenager who has been assigned some chores.
This must be a unique experience for her though - she literally has the power to make it on her own without outside support and has the power on her own to choose to walk out with minimal financial impact and into a life where she would be dependent on nobody at least for the medium term.
Well - time I think to call it a day - fairly quiet at work for a change. We had a single large order go through that was easy to organize. We landed a chunk of new business (probably) that will give us some volumes in a chemistry we do a bit of work on and will be dropping an entire product line that has been an administrative nuisance.
S has gone "in to town" to drop off S18 and to pick up prescriptions and a bit of groceries. I think it's a good time to bundle up in some warmish clothes and go for a walk.
You've mentioned several times that S will receive enough benefit (for lack of a better word) from her dad's estate to be able to take care of herself, at least in the short-term, but I have never gotten the sense that she was terribly interested in doing that. You say she can move into a life where she isn't dependent on anyone, but I think she rather enjoys living off of other people. If she does that, she has no real responsibilities. While I don't doubt she loves her children, she doesn't strike me, based on your description, as overly maternal in any form or fashion and allows her kids to be taken care of by others and themselves so that she can sleep late and do whatever it is she does with all of her time. Why would she want the responsibility that comes with being the adult in the house, paying bills and such, if she can have someone else do that for her?
I'm sure I will sound super nitpicky, but the fact that she prepared a half-a$$ed meal and then still left stuff out despite the fact that you have pointed out to her repeatedly you don't like that would tell me all I need to know about her intentions to really toe the line and make some serious changes. Sure, she put leftovers away and washed dishes, but she didn't fully clean up after herself. What adult does that after 2 days? I mean, ok, I'm not perfect and as of right this minute, there are a few dishes in my sink from this morning because I didn't take the time to unload the dishwasher I ran last night and take care of the breakfast dishes I dirtied this morning, but I did rinse them thoroughly and put away/throw away all related items and will unload and reload the dishwasher tonight while I'm cooking supper. Really not that difficult! And, I work full time, so I can figure it out. And while I'm on my negative roll here, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a quick pasta and pre-made sauce dinner and Sparky and I have that occasionally because it is a fast, easy meal, but we both work full time. When I was working from home, even though I was still working full time, I was cooking full, actual, homemade meals. If I stayed home I would most certainly do that. H3ll, one day last week, I had a stomach bug and stayed home one day and I made homemade potato soup because it was a cold, rainy day and I wanted Sparky to have a warm and filling meal when he got home. Not fancy, but nutritious and homemade and I was sick! So, her excuses just wouldn't fly with me at this point. But, as I have said numerous times and will continue to say, you have to make the choice that is right for you. I'm not there, living in the situation, so I can't make the choice.
i'd be loathe to have her putting stuff away - rather, i'd prefer she packed her $h!t and left ... but, that's just me.
her lack of enthusiasm is all you need to know.
her going back on Sunday rather than the original mid-week, again - telling.
we all know where this is going, just not sure why it's taking so long ? prolonging the misery?
I am still not understanding what you are waiting for? What miracle you are expecting to happen? I think you know exactly where this is going. So does she. Why wait until she [censored] you dry financially, emotionally and mentally? I don’t understand what’s to be gained. Maybe it’s not for me to understand
I am still not understanding what you are waiting for? What miracle you are expecting to happen?...
I don’t understand what’s to be gained. Maybe it’s not for me to understand
If you have not figured this one out, you’ve either not been paying attention or are just not trying very hard (to figure it out). Andrew is waiting for S to do what he can’t bring himself to do. He’s waiting for S break off their engagement and to say that she’s leaving. That’s what Andrew is waiting for.
I’d guess it’s coming sooner than later. Or she will just continue to live 75% of the time at her new home while Andrew takes care of the dog and S18 and rabbits and cats and whatever else - oh yeah, the finances.
The true S has become clear to everyone, including Andrew. Then again, many here already had strong suspicions. There is really no reason to try to figure out how to make this train wreck of an R work or analyze why it hasn’t. What I really hope Andrew will do is figure out why he allowed and actually in great part caused this to happen. Is LH accurate in his assertion that he doesn’t think he’s enough and doesn’t want to live, or die, alone? Might be part of it, might not. But clearly there have been patterns at play here with S, with B and others. Why would many, perhaps most, others not give S a third date let alone put a ring on it and move her in after mere months together?
I will again give you huge credit Andrew for opening all of the details to comparative strangers here. That cannot be easy. It also shows that you are willing to look at things. Hopefully you’ll find a good C who can work with you to figure this out. Much more importantly, find a good C to help you from continuing the pattern any longer. Please do this BEFORE you go out on a single date post S.
Andrew, you know what you need to do. You know you need to do it now. You're sitting back, with a sad smile, acknowledging the truth of this. You're doing absolutely nothing about it.
Right now, watching this train crash, it doesn't look like you're going to move quickly enough. We're all seeing the S train bearing down on you and shouting to jump out of the way, but you refuse. The idea of a continued descent into misery and illness isn't enough to galvanize you into action.
It seems to me that you are content to wait and see how terribly awful your life can actually get. Why is that?
It just seems like a long drawn out face off to see who is going to do it first. s has more to lose by leaving and Andrew has more to lose by staying.
particularly uncomfortable game of chicken which leaves Andrew far more exposed than S ... esp financially and health-wise.
i'd be loathe to have her putting stuff away - rather, i'd prefer she packed her $h!t and left ... but, that's just me.
her lack of enthusiasm is all you need to know.
her going back on Sunday rather than the original mid-week, again - telling.
Thanks bttrfly - Yeah - I'd love to have a time machine that works in reverse - go back a couple of years to when my son told me that he didn't want me dating her and whack myself on the back of the head with a whiffle bat. I expect that he at that time had no idea of what she was really like to live with as her oldest daughter (his friend that he would be visiting) was still around taking of everything for her mother.
I am still not understanding what you are waiting for? What miracle you are expecting to happen? I think you know exactly where this is going. So does she. Why wait until she [censored] you dry financially, emotionally and mentally? I don’t understand what’s to be gained. Maybe it’s not for me to understand
I'm trying to do the
right thing. Probably most of us here are the victims of a spouse who made a unilateral choice on the relationship. We think that the right way to do it is to
1 - let the other person know there are problems (with minimal mind-reading)
2 - work with the other person and counselor to address those problems
3 - after giving it some time and effort, if the problems are insurmountable then do a split in a respectful fashion
That's what I'm trying to do. Right now I'm on step 2
I will again give you huge credit Andrew for opening all of the details to comparative strangers here. That cannot be easy. It also shows that you are willing to look at things. Hopefully you’ll find a good C who can work with you to figure this out. Much more importantly, find a good C to help you from continuing the pattern any longer. Please do this BEFORE you go out on a single date post S.
I hope you're sitting down. Thanks Don.
Yeah - I've certainly recognized that I have things to work on. From my point of view the first thing is my vulnerability to women who move too fast. How does that old Country song go? Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money .... I have them in the wrong order and haven't had a glass of whiskey in perhaps 2 years now. I do like a nice single malt as long as it's not too peaty in flavour.
One important thing that I knew that's been reinforced though is that other than my cowardice in certain situations, I quite like me. I'm happy in my own head and with my own company and don't have a "need" for others. My skills in dealing with conflict certainly need work. I started to write "before I try again" - but that's not in the cards. I have no interest in replacing S with "someone better" except that that might be with a cat. Perhaps a little tortoise-shell. I had one years ago who was very dear to me. I miss having a pet of my own. I'm just a care-taker of the zoo here.
I do think that this train is starting to pick a direction. For both of us. S is certainly not acting like a person who has any real interest in working on "winning me back". She just seems like someone who is very very tired. She has done a bit more house-keeping in recent days that was her usual and it exhausts her. I do know that when you are trying to deal with some unpleasant task like in her case sorting and organizing that it can draw a lot out of you. Like always I've tried to notice and let her know that I do see that she's been putting in an effort.
The physical magnetism that she had towards me is absent as far as I can detect. No seeking out hugs, kisses. No random flashing me as she walks by. Certainly the dog is less disturbed at night than she used to be
I'm sad. The
only way that I think that this could work for me as things are would be to minimize myself, my own priorities, wants and lifestyle. S13 once commented back in February that I should change my name and become "one of them". No. Because it's the "proper" way to do it, I feel that I need to give S a chance to work with me to try to figure this out but at this point I'm not getting anything much other than perhaps the superficial. Which is perhaps all she sees. I don't know.
Should be a generally good weekend - superficially at least
. I have my first load of laundry in, I'm getting a haircut - might be the last one for a while. S did some groceries yesterday but was fairly clear that she's expecting me to do the rest which I'm fine with. Get my fresh flowers, a scone from my friend at the back-shop. Putter in the office.
We're heading back into lock-down here again I think. We've learned a lot in the past year I think. Mask wearing is now common as is keeping physical distance so I think that more will stay open than did in the spring. The expectation is that this lock-down will probably last until the new year.
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I'm re-reading the Narnia series for the umpteenth time. A nice escape.
I don't know of any activities that S might have for us to do together and can't think of any that are likely. I know that I'm perhaps fairly limited in the "couples / family" activities that I enjoy. I don't care for watching TV, especially with boys who talk over top of everything with loud commentary. I've never enjoyed board games and am only an occasional card player.
She's heading out sometime on Sunday with S13. I need to find out if she's staying for dinner. I'm thinking of making a meat-loaf. The chicken S got out yesterday turned out to be more work than she was willing to do so I believe she's planning on that for tonight. Cooking isn't something she's passionate about but she is capable. I did up the dishes last night and probably will again tonight. A reasonable division of labour that gives me the clean counter that is important to me.
If S isn't going to be here for Sunday dinner I may pick up a nice bottle of wine to go with it. I haven't had a chianti for a while and there are some quite nice ones. Reminders of a different time, sitting at a - metaphorical - cafe in Ravenna with some good friends.
New Thread - Courage - Part 2
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2908475&#Post2908475
Your 3 steps to doing the right thing apply to a marriage. But a dating relationship? Dating is recognizing differences that DO NOT WORK before marriage. There is absolutely nothing wrong with recognizing those and then doing the right thing for yourself
I know people are not going to agree but S is just as much as a victim. Both sides misrepresented themselves in the early stages of the relationship.