Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: AndrewP And now another special feature - 10/19/20 07:59 PM
I'm a huge Rocky and Bullwinkle fan which is undoubtedly no surprise to anyone. I was horrified by what they did to the Sherman and Mr Peabody characters in that crappy reboot that had them doing a talk show. Interestingly the episode that they did about Winston Churchill which quite offended me, was in some ways accurate. He did have a number of "Mommy" issues. His signature blue polka-dotted bow tie was a tribute to his father. I have a very similar tie which required much hunting. Interestingly (to me) his former tailor sold a "Churchill" bow tie but for a purist like myself, I was offended that it had the wrong pattern.

It's one of my favourite ties. It's actually in my will that I want to be buried in that one.

It's been a while since I did a thread summary. My oh my - what a long and winding road we have been on. 46 threads of rambling nonsense by me and exasperated commentary by others.

If nothing else, I do win I think an award for creative thread titles.

Fresh Meat
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2678621&page=1

Twisting in the Wind
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2691981&page=1

Confessions of a failed mind reader
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2696636&page=1

And now we wait
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2699223&page=1

Baking my own cake
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701127&page=1

Am I on the wrong bicycle
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701309&page=1

The phantom Cyclist
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2704064&page=1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2708284&page=1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2711943&page=1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2713880&page=1

Lost in the woods
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2717071&page=1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2719407&page=1

Cabin in the Woods
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2723724&page=1

Sitting in the cafe in Ravenna
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2727019&page=1

On The Far Shore / Songs and Stories
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758899&page=1

Songs and Stories From The Far Shore
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2768482&page=1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2778734&page=1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2789569&page=1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2789736&page=1

Travels through La Mancha
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2807877&page=1

Brunch in Ravenna
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2817355&page=1

Tacos in Icaria
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2825696&page=1

Saturday Siesta
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2831581&page=1

The Third Wish
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2835188&page=1

Sunday Supper
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2835656&page=1

Sunday Supper - 2nd Course - I Like Pie
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841443&page=1

Sunday Supper - 3rd Course
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2844544&page=1

Sunday Supper - 4th Course
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2848314&page=1

Flying without instruments
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2851576&page=1

Turn and face the strange - Ch-ch-changes
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2851580&page=1

It's a world of laughter
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2860908&page=1

From Ushant to Scilly 'tis thirty-five leagues
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2863272&page=1

These Boots
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2866822&page=1

I saw it on Mulberry Street
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870563&page=1

I have room for your stuff
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2876536&page=1

LBS Cookbook
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2876543&page=1

Adventures while on a coddiwomple
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2882372&page=1

"In the end it wasn't strength that won - It was careful attention to laundry instructions."
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2883176&page=1

Pyke notte thyne errys nothyr thy nostrellys
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2888804&page=1

"Every Day I'm Shufflin'"
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2891390&page=1

Three Little Birds
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2894235&page=1

Darned Skeeters
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2894255&page=1

Tell the cicadas to shut up
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2901568&page=1

Free parrot with every peg leg
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2904383&page=1

Give A Mouse A Cookie
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2905535&page=1

Where's the banana
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2905536&page=1

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Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/19/20 08:50 PM
Well - this might actually provide you and her an easy out, if she decides to try to live in the house (although that is a HORRIBLE IDEA as she will trash the place ,as already indicated by her eagerness to let her dog on the couch. Really? Instead of respecting her father in death, she's looking for a way to stick it to him??? ) At least if you told her now you would like her to move out, she has a place to go to.

If the will was "done up" by S without a lawyer it may well be useless. I don't know what your laws are in Canada. Here in the states, as I understand it (NOT a lawyer!) you basically have 3 options:
Formal will done by a lawyer - always the best idea

Cheap will done through an online company like LegalZoom- there are companies that will do a basic will with boilerplate templates that might be ok for very simple wills IF executed properly.

A holographic will - not accepted in every state. To the best of my knowledge, it has to be handwritten (if typed it is invalidated) by the person whose will it is, and signed by them.

If the will divides everything 50:50 between S and her brother it probably won't be too difficult since that's how the law would split it anyway. If, on the other hand, S convinced her father to write a will that favored her, she can expect a fight in court over it.

It seems peculiar to me that her father, who was financially competent and fastidious in other ways, would have left his will to something drawn up by his daughter. If this wasn't recent, they should check to make sure there's not another, more recent will out there.

If there is life insurance money that should come soon. Also in the states retirement accounts have beneficiaries named and those can be distributed fairly quickly if you have all the information and the beneficiary forms were filled out properly. Bank accounts here may or may not have a "payable on death" beneficiary.

Sounds like the house will be the big issue, may have to go through probate, and the brother may fight her over her being in the house since he probably knows what a terrible housekeeper she is. But possession is 9/10 of the law, and if they haven't been close, maybe he doesn't know how bad she is?

In your shoes, I'd be secretly hoping she decides to live there and that would give you the out you want. If you find yourself hoping that too then I think that tells you what direction you will need to go in.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 06:58 PM
Filled out the intake form for the couples therapy session next week. I was surprised but also not that a description of the issues was asked for. I wrote a short novel. I felt bad pointing out that I am unhappy and why. But it is vital to be honest especially with the therapist. She can't help if she doesn't know but the negatives are so glaring while the positives really can't be seen.

Doing that form though at least means that I won't need to go in with my sheet that I'd been working on - nothing to kill the mood of cooperation than bullet points.

-----

Having the place to myself (and the cats and rabbits) was like having a weight lifted yesterday afternoon. I cleaned the living room - found lots of treasures under the couch cushions. I wasn't sure what needed to be done with the piles of clothes etc but they are folded and on a chair at least.

I got the last of the Thanksgiving left-overs dealt with too and gave the stove a nice scrub. Some dancing and singing while doing dishes was done. Then I drank some beer and watched a program on TV.

Not much news from S - they are going this afternoon to check about arrangements for her Dad. He wished to be cremated so that will simplify things quite a lot.

I don't expect her home tonight but then again, I could be wrong. I do actually expect her to be starting to split her time between here and there until the house sells which could be up to a year depending on a whole lot of factors that I don't understand. She has a lot of ties to that city both emotionally and practically.

On a more practical and positive note, I would expect that the insurance money at least may well allow for S to pay off her consolidation loan which will be a big load off the finances. It's an open loan so there's no penalty. I also expect that her Dad's car will go to her D19 who isn't working at present in part because she doesn't have a car. It's brand new and was still on the first tank of gas at Thanksgiving. I'm assuming that it's fully paid for.

The house feels weird right now. And my own mood is bouncing all over the place as well. One thing that I remarked on early in our relationship was how things appeared to just re-arrange themselves so that life's travails fell somewhat lightly on S. Perhaps this is that again.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 07:05 PM
i'm not sure feeling that level of relief when one's partner leaves bodes well for any hope to salvage this.

also, i've been wondering this since it was stated that S is not celiac, but gluten sensitive. Why can't she even smell beer???

I cry BS on that, unless a medical professional (ahem) sets me straight.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 07:09 PM
Quote
I got the last of the Thanksgiving left-overs dealt with too and gave the stove a nice scrub. Some dancing and singing while doing dishes was done.


Andrew you are some woman's dream date! Someone who will dance and sing with you in the kitchen while cleaning up, and not days later after the meal either.

Quote
On a more practical and positive note, I would expect that the insurance money at least may well allow for S to pay off her consolidation loan which will be a big load off the finances.


I would not just assume she would do something so financially reasonable. You will probably have to suggest it and perhaps apply a little pressure. She's probably expecting to leave you holding the bag for that as she has with past relationships and debt. I agree that this is a good opportunity to get her to pay that off.and try to find a way to persuade her that it is the best thing for HER to do that.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
also, i've been wondering this since it was stated that S is not celiac, but gluten sensitive. Why can't she even smell beer???

I cry BS on that, unless a medical professional (ahem) sets me straight.
She is allergic to a "lot" of things. Alcohol is one of them and it causes a fairly bad reaction. So I drink dealcoholized (0.5%) beer most of the time. It's decent but not the same as my regular favourites and she has no issue other than not really caring for the smell which reduces the smooch transmission too. Scotch and rum are right out because of the fumes as is wine. It's a bad enough allergy that it could be fatal. She also has allergies to most pain meds.
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
I got the last of the Thanksgiving left-overs dealt with too and gave the stove a nice scrub. Some dancing and singing while doing dishes was done.
Andrew you are some woman's dream date! Someone who will dance and sing with you in the kitchen while cleaning up, and not days later after the meal either.
The only problem is that I prefer to do the dishes on my own but do welcome dance partners. My cats used to know to avoid the kitchen at those times smile
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 07:57 PM
Well then, a woman who will enjoy watching you dance around the kitchen singing and cleaning - I bet there are even more of those!
Posted By: exquisitetobe Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 10:20 PM
Andrew, is S13' s dad the one married to S?

Who ever is the presumed ex, you do realise that he may bring this inheritance in the Divorce, right?
She will not procede with the D now. She has too much to lose.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 10:23 PM
Actually who knows what the law is in Canada but here in the states, so long as you keep your inheritance separate (i.e. separate back account, not in a joint account) it remains to the person who inherited it and isn't considered joint marital property in a divorce.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 10:24 PM
It might however affect child support if she ends up better off financially than S13's father.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 10:25 PM
Which is a great argument for her to pay off her loan so it doesn't look like she has so much money!!!!!
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 10:27 PM
Which is a great argument for her to pay off her loan so it doesn't look like she has so much money!!!!!
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 10:27 PM
Sorry for the double post!
Posted By: DonH Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Scotch and rum are right out because of the fumes as is wine. It's a bad enough allergy that it could be fatal.

Oh, C’mon now. Is this something that S told you or that you actually heard from her treating medical professional? Certainly if true, she darn well better carry an epi pen with her every place she goes. Does she carry one with her at all times? I’ve treated some wicked anaphylactic reactions and yes they can be deadly. I’ve never seen a deadly reaction from odor. It’s always been directly ingesting the substance or being stung. I call BS on the mere smell of beer being deadly. Again, if she is one of these rare individuals that are extremely anaphylactic allergic, they are all hyper vigilant about not coming into contact and never go anywhere without 2 epi pens. Given all of her other crazy behavior I’m betting she’s greatly inflated this to control this aspect of your life just like she seems to want to control the other aspects - who you see, what you do, what you buy for your kids, etc.

Not that you are at all excited about or celebrating the death of S’s dad, but you do seem to be much more your regular self again the past few posts. If that doesn’t say it all, feeling a huge weight lifted when S leaves, I’m not sure what does.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 11:54 PM
Well, in the case of peanut allergies, just kissing someone who had eaten peanuts can provoke an allergic reaction. A true allergic reaction to alcohol itself (rather than sulfites or gluten or other things in the alcoholic beverage) are rare but not apparently unheard of (I had to research it because I've never seen that). If that's the case, and a true immediate allergy exists, I suppose that kissing or even inhaling the breath of someone with alcohol on their breath might cause some reaction that's less that full blown anaphylaxis but still uncomfortable.

As to whether her story of allergy is true or not, or whether she understands it correctly or not, should not really be a factor in any decision people around her make - people have died of anaphylaxis because the people around them didn't take their allergy seriously. Better safe than sorry. I might doubt her story or her understanding of it too but it wouldn't be my place to make a potentially dangerous decision about her health by ignoring her cautions.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 11:55 PM
And I agree with Don, the fact that you feel better with her out of the house speaks volumes.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/20/20 11:57 PM
actually K, not here. there's precedent for if the inlaws helped financially, then the ex is entitled to half the spouse's inheritance.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 12:07 AM
So - if the husband's parents gave $5,000 to the couple to help them buy a house, and later the wife inherited a million dollars, the husband would be entitled to half a million? That doesn't sound right to me! I could see him being entitled to getting the $5,000 back though.

Certainly in a community property state like California, an inheritance is not considered community property IF it is always kept separate. But if you deposit it into a joint account or use it to buy property with both names on the deed you lose that separation.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 12:52 AM
The three youngest kids' Dad was divorced about 12 years ago and makes decent money. For a lot of reasons I can't see him wanting to reopen the agreement.

The guy she hasn't divorced is a blue collar worker and by all accounts is a fairly decent guy but poor with money. It's unlikely that he would go after anything. He doesn't pay any support. A matter of pride for S that she didn't ask for any either nor for a share of the marital home.

If I recall my own divorce correctly, after the separation of finances there is no liability for new debts and so I would assume new assets.

A key thing I think is if the funds are co-mingled. If S were to pay off my mortgage for example. Especially since we are in a financial union and this wasn't something she brought in from before.

If she were here the advice would probably be for her to dump me to protect her inheritance.
Posted By: DonH Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 03:07 AM
Is it possible? Certainly, as anything is “possible”. Is it likely? Not at all. As for the better safe than sorry, it’s that thinking that has killed an economy and completely disrupted lives for the better part of a year. But sticking with S having this deadly allergy, again I’d say the first way to follow the “better safe than sorry” strategy is with her having an epi pen everywhere she goes. If she does not do that, I’d say either it’s not that large of an issue or she’s not even taking the most important precaution and not allowing Andrew to have a beer should stop until she at least gets an epi pen.

As for the shellfish kiss, without a doubt I’ve treated some pretty significant reactions with patients who only were at the same table of those eating fish or simply from preparing fish along side the allergy patients food. It’s certainly a real issue for some. Of course there is a huge difference from being allergic to something and having an anaphylactic reaction to it. I just have to wonder if S has allergies versus anaphylaxis. Again, if she carries an epi pen with her wherever she goes I’d be much more apt to believe of the severity. Absent that, it’s far more likely to be an allergy - which of course can be nasty and uncomfortable but rarely deadly - sort of like other medical issues that are very uncomfortable to go through but only a small percentage of people die from. 😉
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 06:13 AM
Yeah - and that a sizable percentage of people survive but have chronic symptoms after, like the patient I saw today who had it in March and is still running low grades fevers and having weird nerve pain. And she’s really mild. The 35 year old woman who is still incapacitated with cognitive dysfunction and severe fatigue after 8 months can’t even begin to think of returning to work - they had to move in with her parents so they could help with her kids.

It’s not simple die or you’re fine. We are going to be seeing the long term effects of this virus in millions of people. But if everyone would wear their masks and take appropriate precautions we wouldn’t be shut down like this.Turn off the anti-science channels Don.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by kml
So - if the husband's parents gave $5,000 to the couple to help them buy a house, and later the wife inherited a million dollars, the husband would be entitled to half a million? That doesn't sound right to me! I could see him being entitled to getting the $5,000 back though.

Certainly in a community property state like California, an inheritance is not considered community property IF it is always kept separate. But if you deposit it into a joint account or use it to buy property with both names on the deed you lose that separation.


no.

I know of a situation where the parents gave $50k towards a down payment. they also created accounts for each grandchild for college and helped out financially. the husband brought them to court and it cost them well into 5 figures in legal fees to save their daughter's inheritance and grandkid's accounts from this greedy fillintheblank. the precedent here legally is some trust fund guy with a drinking problem and his wife were so materially enabled by his parents that her lawyer successfully sued to have the wife get half the husband's inheritance in the divorce, thus opening the floodgates for others to try to do the same, with an astonishing degree of success.

My exh's lawyer tried the same tactic, because I'm an only child. When I calmly asked my exh what he wanted my parents to do (sell the land I've now built my home on and give him 1/2 the $$ was his answer) and then what, do they hire a realtor to get a market value on their home and take a mortgage out for 1/2 ... he said yes yes yes then realized how ridiculous that sounded. Especially when I said, well, we can do the same with your mother's assets as well, and yes, if he tried to put my parents through that, I would have absolutely gone to the mat. fun times. glad I'm single.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 12:40 PM
I think Don has some good points about the allergy issue. Let me say this first, so I'm not misconstrued. I am NOT saying that S doesn't have allergy issues. I don't know her, so she may very well have anaphylaxis or a very severe allergy issue. I do not know as I am not there, not part of her life, nor do I even know her. However, I agree with Don that it is certainly within the realm of possibilities that S has exaggerated an issue in order to assert dominance in controlling yet another aspect of Andrew's life. I have actually wondered this for some time (if it is being "amped up") and have meant to ask about the epi-pen when her level of allergy was mentioned before. If she is so severely allergic that the smell of alcohol gives her a strong adverse reaction (which is absolutely possible and Andrew is absolutely doing the right thing in taking it seriously), it would stand to reason that she would need to be VERY careful about where she goes and who she is around and that she would need to have an epi-pen close at hand in case of an emergency.

The other thing that makes it seem that exaggeration is at least within the realm of possibilities with some of her issues is Andrew's mention, on more than one occasion, of the pre-packaged and pre-made foods that S seems to have a penchant for purchasing. It would seem to me that, if one has allergy issues (particularly to gluten) and then has ADD issues on top of that, then there would be more caution about overall nutrition. I'm not saying S is necessarily doing anything bad, since MANY rely on pre-packaged meals and snacks, but I would just think someone who had a variety of issues and who had children with a variety of issues would be a little more cognizant of what they were ingesting and would be more prone to cooking their own meals so as to control exactly what ingredients are used. (Says the fat girl eating a blueberry muffin while she types this, but hey, it is homemade, so at least I know exactly what is in it...……………)
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 01:16 PM
Dawn my love this is what jumped out at me in your post:
Originally Posted by Dawn70
It would seem to me that, if one has allergy issues (particularly to gluten) and then has ADD issues on top of that, then there would be more caution about overall nutrition. I'm not saying S is necessarily doing anything bad, since MANY rely on pre-packaged meals and snacks, but I would just think someone who had a variety of issues and who had children with a variety of issues would be a little more cognizant of what they were ingesting and would be more prone to cooking their own meals so as to control exactly what ingredients are used.


Yes. I agree. However, that requires a few things which she demonstrably lacks:
* personal responsibility/accountability
* the ability to actually parent in a way that is largely recognizable by the majority
* the ability to get off her @$$ to do the hard work to prepare meals from scratch and read the numerous books she may have on the subject

Look - I know plenty of folks who fall on the spectrum of food sensitivities, from mild to full-blown celiac. The people I know who take it seriously - and by that I mean take ownership of their personal wellbeing - are doing just that, making food from scratch or minimally being very careful about the pre-packaged goods they ingest. One of my dearest friends is full-blown celiac. She is so mindful of her diet and makes everything from scratch. When she does veer off, she does so knowing she will pay the price and has learned what she needs to do to manage the ensuing stomach/digestive issues. My own dear friend K just had a heart health event which scared him so much that he's taken his vegetarianism to a new level, learning all he can about heart healthy diets, cutting all salt and only preparing foods himself, rather than buying pre-packaged convenience/comfort foods, which is what he'd fallen into the habit of eating.

What bugs me is the insistence that someone else modify their behavior in yet another way to accommodate her needs, and absolutely how can one not be accommodating when it's presented as a serious allergy? I have no idea if that is real, imagined, or misinterpreted on her end, but yes, I question if there's an epipen present. She doesn't work. What the h3ll else does she have to do with her copious free time, if not educate herself on her and her children's nutritional needs and then actually take ownership of those needs by cooking food for herself and her brood, from scratch. Most people fall into the convenience pre-packaged trap because they work 40 hours a week plus have a commute to and from that eats up their time. She does not have that legitimate excuse.

I also question how she being so sensitive could wash dishes in an establishment that serves both gf and gluten items. She's definitely coming into contact with gluten. I file it under "things that make you go hmmmm" and have largely concluded that S is someone who has an outsized sense of entitlement that manifests in a variety of ways. Perhaps that's unfair since I've never met her, but there you have it. That's my conclusion based upon what we've been told and how she's behaved.

I'm sorry if that is harsh, but that's my honest opinion.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 01:32 PM
Wow butterfly, that’s crazy in your state - and the gall of your ex! I can’t imagine feeling entitled to a future inheritance from one’s ex-in-laws! I guess that clinches what a creep he has become.
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 02:04 PM
I don’t know about the rest of Canada but here in my province, like KML said, as long as you keep your inheritance separate from your marital accounts, your spouse is not entitled to any of it. I was really lucky in my D because I didn’t keep the money I inherited separate. However, XH did not go after it and he did not go after the rental home I bought with my sister either. Maybe it’s because he wanted the D over with quickly and he knew I would fight him on it. Or maybe it’s because there is a decent person in there somewhere and he knew he didn’t really deserve to get any of it. Or maybe it’s a combination of both.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Wow butterfly, that’s crazy in your state - and the gall of your ex! I can’t imagine feeling entitled to a future inheritance from one’s ex-in-laws! I guess that clinches what a creep he has become.


in fairness, his TSH was 17 and rising, not getting adjusted by his ridiculous MD at the time, and his lawyer was fomenting as much dissent as possible to get her hands on the considerable equity in our home. Luckily once his tsh reached a high of 27 and he changed doctors, got the thyroid under control, he realized what a horrible lawyer he had and fired her, but not before she ran up his retainer significantly. But yeah, it's a really horrible precedent which has led to a lot of litigation that has caused considerable breakdown in families far beyond the couple themselves.
Posted By: DonH Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 02:55 PM
Masks are the new epi-pen. Who knew? Lol. Sadly I have zero doubt many believe both are equally effective in saving lives. That’s 2020 for ya.

As usual Dawn and Butterfly did a better job of explaining things than I may have. It did get me to thinking though, it’s a good thing S doesn’t have severe allergies to dust or rabbits or dog poop and cat litter. Or is that just a happy coincidence? Certainly makes ya think though doesn’t it?
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 03:06 PM
EXACTLY what I was thinking, bttrfly, but didn't elaborate as much as you did. I agree with absolutely everything that you said. Here's my thing about the hard work of cooking from scratch, though. Yes, it is time-consuming and certainly something that takes effort and planning. But there are wonderful inventions like crock pots and instapots and casserole dishes that do at least part of the work for you. And, these meals can be healthy too. One doesn't necessarily have to stand over the stove for hours cooking everything by hand if they choose healthy recipes and healthy ingredients and then use some of these other tools to just make things easier. We eat a lot of soups in the fall and winter. Fresh, home-made soup with fresh veggies and maybe a nice salad to accompany it can be a nice, balanced, healthy meal. I think, though, that goes back to what you said, bttrfly, about taking ownership and responsibility of one's own needs. I work full time, as does Sparky and both of us like to cook, but neither of us is a huge fan of making huge meals that take an hour to prepare after working all day. We do relatively simple meals during the week and more involved meals on the weekends that take more prep and cook time. It is really pretty easy to cook good, nutritious meals, but you just have to be willing to put in the time and some people just lack that ability.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 03:27 PM
I work full time plus and manage to put a from scratch meal on the table about 4 times per week. A treat to eat out or order in once a week and leftovers other times. It is not time consuming . I use my air fryer which really cuts down on time.

Truth if the matter is, for someone who doesn’t work at all has plenty of time to cook nutritious meals with dietary restrictions. It’s not time consuming. It’s takes some effort. But we all know that S just doesn’t like to give effort.

I’m sorry for the loss of her father. It is also sad that she just has no will to do basic things in life. Is it because no gives her a reason to? Who knows. But choice is hers in the long run. Enabling doesn’t help the situation for sure.

Andrew, this is too much for anyone. She’s got some serious major issues she has no desire to work through. She prefers excuses. She isn’t a partner. It’s like you now have 3 extra children in your home. But what you choose to do with the situation is your choice. What S chooses to do with her life is her choice. But you shouldn’t have to suffer from her bad choices
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 04:00 PM
Happy Wednesday! I've been posting a lot lately but there's a lot going on at least in my head. I yearn for the days when I was stuck coming up with something twice a week.

I did just have a laugh - I usually compose these posts over a matter of hours as thoughts come and go and as work ebbs and flows. Lots of activity. And quite a lot of validation and support ((hugs))

It's nice to see the various "old-timers" (I hate to think of us as the "vets" that Newcomers look to as the arbiters of all that is Truth) share stories of various divorce law permutations and of ex-spouse antics. Something that can be of value to others I am sure. And it also helps those of us to know that no matter how freaky our ex-partners may have been, just like The Four Yorkshiremen - there's is always a story that will top the last one.

Nothing much happening here. S sent the boys home yesterday via her son-in-law who had to go back to work. I believe she's down at her Dad's house for another day or so. S18 wanted to go to work today and S13 wants to go back to his Dad's house. I have some driving to do. They got in about 11:00 pm last night and were chatting away in the kitchen right below my bedroom.

Bizarrely to me - I'm not feeling much urge to defend S from the bashing which goes against what I "should" be feeling / doing. Perhaps because I am finding myself agreeing with a good portion of what is being written. Which makes me very very sad. S, I felt really wanted this to work and perhaps felt it was working. I certainly have shown a lot of patience and forbearance with the unpacking.

It does illustrate to me at least that the person you live with only resembles the one you dated although there were so many things I glossed over in the fury of her attention. Love-bombing does work, especially on low conflict easy-going people like me.

How much awareness does S or people like her have? I suspect not a lot. Is it possible that a therapy session will get her to realize that her actions and inaction are hurting our relationship? Dunno - but doubtful. Her past has numerous stories of her going back to a former partner repeatedly trying to "fix" what she felt she might have done wrong - which I interpreted in one way that might have been very different in reality. I took it as her pretzeling herself in unreasonable ways - being thinner, more fabulous, younger, all the things that many here are familiar with as they "fought for their marriage". None of it is sustainable for the long term though.

It bothers me how "normal" it feels to me to think about the probable end of this relationship. As if I never really invested heavily into it emotionally. Am I really that cold of a person? I do know that I do have the to view things dispassionately under some circumstances. When my marriage ended it was horrific. When the relationship with B ended it was hard and I kept looking for answers and fixes. This time ??

But I also feel very guilty. Guilt along with sadness are the fundamental emotions at play here.

And who knows - with help, I may be able to find ways to deal with things and to also assist S in getting herself on track for a more productive life where we can have more of a partnership here. And yes - I know that the odds could be considered slim and the question of if either of us would be able to commit to that investment is unanswered.

---

Speaking of food it was interesting to be bacheloring it again. I had liver and onions on Monday night, sausages and oven baked potato wedges last night. Easy to make. Like Dawn, I am a huge fan of the crock-pot. S owns one that still I think has the original stickers on it. My smaller one is the only one that gets pulled out. S likes to - when she cooks - to pull out the largest (and hardest to clean) pots and do things on the stove-top. She has made tomato soup once. We have a lot of random left-over meat in the freezer at this point and I think I may make up a "random meat stew" today. Feeling inspired.

Weird that the guy who used to only cook for the family once a week (but always made a hot breakfast) is the person who focuses on healthy meals vs the single mom who was under very tight budget constraints who bought convenience foods.

Part of this though I'm nearly sure on was because her kitchen was never actually usable. The dishwasher was always full, the sinks both filled with dishes "to soak", random dirty plates, cups etc scattered around the apartment. When I go to do something in the workshop, the first task is usually to clean up the surfaces and tools (and most days the last task). She does consider herself a "baker" but when we were dating she only baked one thing. Since she's been here she's done a couple of pies and a few other things that I don't recall.

I gave her a virtual eye-roll this past Sunday when she did actually get up around when I did and said that I could make her breakfast. We were down to 2 eggs so I made pancakes with a certain amount of muttering.

Normally it seems that the kids are on their own for most nutritional needs. She has put some effort into having a "normal" sit-down dinner a couple of times a week. I have commented that the high sodium content of most pre-packaged foods are a problem for me which I "think" hadn't crossed her mind. The boys aren't used to this and I think find it weird. S18 subsists largely on frozen pizza and "unsweet tea" (waves to Dawn). S13 pretty much eats nothing except for pre-packaged gluten free mac and cheese.

---------------

Back to work. Something that I've been worried about for a while now seems to be happening more. We're experiencing a driver shortage that is now starting to really be felt and seems to be getting worse. Train crews seem to be having some difficulty filling out too. Stock up on toilet paper everyone!

Since I never really disconnected from the office and plant, it's not too big of a shift for me to get back into the swing of things. I had a pretty clear idea of customer demand and available containers and product so was able to get things together for the day.

We're going into a planned shutdown next week. I'll be on site two days instead of the regular one. There's some people I need to meet with about some of the changes being made while the plant is cool. I also have to probably do a fair bit of juggling to make sure orders move smoothly - I've been told our heat-exchanger will be out of service for at least a few days and I need that for some of the products.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 05:32 PM
Quote
there were so many things I glossed over in the fury of her attention. Love-bombing does work, especially on low conflict easy-going people like me.


Yeah - one of the big challenges for us post-divorce is to learn how to pay attention to the red flags and not keep repeating the same mistakes.

Quote
And it also helps those of us to know that no matter how freaky our ex-partners may have been, just like The Four Yorkshiremen - there's is always a story that will top the last one.


Yes, bttrfly's story makes me grateful that the only way my ex has been a problem financially since the divorce is in him sticking me with all the unexpected financial help needed for our adult children post-divorce (he feels since he pays me alimony I should be responsible!). It's a d!ck move on his part but nothing like what some others have experienced, and I come out ahead in the end as my relationships with my kids are strong and his are crumbling as a result of it.

Quote
It bothers me how "normal" it feels to me to think about the probable end of this relationship. As if I never really invested heavily into it emotionally. Am I really that cold of a person?


No, you're not. It's just that after what we've been through, we're more realistic about relationships - and their potentially temporary nature. I've known CMM was going to die since very early in our relationship, so I don't really feel quite the same sense of impending loss that one might feel if this had happened after a long time together - it's more as if I got into a relationship with a guy who was terminal from the beginning. It's sad and I feel bad for him and I choose to be here for him through that process - but he can be so difficult I'm sure I'll feel a sense of relief when it's over too.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 05:59 PM
*Waves back from behind a big ole ice cold glass of sweet tea*

Seriously, what is it with you people north of the Mason/Dixon line? I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against unsweet tea and actually drink it just as often as sweet tea, but there is just something about good, ice cold sweet tea to make everything seem right with the world. Of course, what can I expect from people who don't know about biscuits and gravy either...………...sigh...………………………..
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 09:16 PM
You didnt get the chance to invest emotionally. She pushed her agenda. You skipped the actual fun dating getting to know eachother period to getting married and moving chaos into your home. You became a caregiver instead of a partner right off the bat.

There is a lot of value in the dating phase. And I hope in your future you take the time and date instead of rushing into cohabitation and engagement
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 10:52 PM
Quote
You became a caregiver instead of a partner right off the bat.


Oh Ginger, you nailed that one!!!

Happened to me too but more accidentally (not CMM's fault he got lung cancer) and honestly I don't feel like it's too uneven since he cooks for me every night and does a lot (too much!) of the cleaning in the house.

But in your case Andrew you got very little of the goodies and went straight to being her life jacket.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/21/20 11:42 PM
Out of the mouths of babes ....

I had to drive S18 to work and S13 over to his Dad's which takes 45 minutes. S13 was chatty and passed on some information without being asked.

Each kid is getting a legacy of $2k which is pretty exciting for them and they have spent some time thinking about how it would be spent. S13 won't get his until he turns 18 which he's fine with.

He also had this great plan that his Dad would move with his Mom into that house - not that he's looking for a reconciliation I'm sure, but that his Dad lives in varying rentals. There's been a couple of times that the question has come around - presumably from the kids - of if he could move in to where she's living.

It seems that his Mom's plan (which I know nothing about) is to come home for a few days and then go back to her Dad's house for a few days. My only information is that she is coming home tomorrow - undoubtedly quite late. S18 isn't expecting her until Friday.

From what S13 said, I'm sure that the option of them moving into that house was talked about. Personally I can't see that happening as she won't have the funds to buy her brother's 1/2. Since her Dad is in his mid 80s I would presume the insurance policy he carried was modest and the house will probably go for about 500K given that it is in a quiet suburb well placed for access to hospitals, universities etc. We can assume no outstanding debts.

After I dropped the boys off I took a chance and messaged S a suggestion that we postpone or cancel our counseling session set for next Tuesday because the world is spinning just a bit too fast right now. She asked if she could get back to me later as her best friend had just stopped in - and I'm sure it was a suggestion out of the blue. We do need to give decent notice to cancel though. Also, if she is indeed going to be here for a few days and then away, that overlaps our appointment which I could imagine would escape her mind given the circumstances.

It was perhaps not good that I nudged S on this at this time but it seemed like the decent thing to do.

I do really think that she is taking this opportunity to weigh her various options. This would be the first time "ever" that she would be in a position to make it completely on her own without the belt tightening of living on child support. She has her daughters there who may or may not know about the tensions back home although I'm sure that D26 is more than clever enough to figure that out especially if she's getting feedback from her husband who has a perspective that matches mine more closely.

I can't see her making that choice quickly though - although perhaps an ADD brain will be impulsive rather than procrastinating.
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
You became a caregiver instead of a partner right off the bat.


Oh Ginger, you nailed that one!!!

Happened to me too but more accidentally (not CMM's fault he got lung cancer) and honestly I don't feel like it's too uneven since he cooks for me every night and does a lot (too much!) of the cleaning in the house.

But in your case Andrew you got very little of the goodies and went straight to being her life jacket.
I know that S in many ways thinks that I do too much around the house and that undoubtedly she feels that dishes don't need to be done every day nor the cat boxes cleaned. They weren't at her apartment.

You are right kml - in many ways I'm doing about as much here as I did when S was laid up with her back out and I was nurse.

Time to call it a day. I'm at the plant tomorrow. I doubt if S will be here when I get home. I have left-over "random meat stew" (mostly pork - some chicken) in the fridge that I made today. It's not that good, but it's food we own. I have the few dishes that are dirty to do, the cat boxes to clean and then off to bed where I probably won't be woken at 2:30 am to get up at 5:00
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 12:03 AM
Quote
From what S13 said, I'm sure that the option of them moving into that house was talked about. Personally I can't see that happening as she won't have the funds to buy her brother's 1/2.


Oh Andrew, Andrew - you naive boy! She's gonna move into that house, and wait for probate (which could take a very long time if the will is as sketchy as it sounds) and try to gain the advantage over her brother. Possession, after all, is 9/10 of the law, and she seems to feel perfectly entitled.

Also, I suppose it's possible that between 1/2 the insurance and 1/2 of his retirement savings, she could have enough to buy her brother out. It's also possible that the will isn't 50:50 as you assume, but that she got her dad to sign a will that favored her over the brother. You ASSume she would take the prudent financial path - be fair about the inheritance, maintain the house in good condition until it's sold, and use her share to perhaps buy a less expensive home outright to live in with the kids or pay off her consolidation loan and invest the rest to provide some income. But that would be completely out of character for her AND not in keeping with her hoarder/shopaholic tendencies.

Interesting that S13 told you that about his dad moving in. I wonder if that's just wishful thinking on his part, or if this was being planned while he was there? Seems like a clueless thing to be telling you. But he probably just sees it all through the lens of here's a nice (clean!) place we could all move into - ignoring the reality that it will become another hoarders palace in no time.

Too bad about his $2k though - I'd be very surprised if it's still there once he turns 18.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 12:05 AM
In fact, my prediction is she WON'T pay off the consolidation loan so she CAN buy out her brother and you will be left holding the bag.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 01:08 AM
oh G*d ... so much to comment on. Where to begin?

Andrew, as G so rightly pointed out, you weren't given the opportunity for this relationship to develop naturally. You are not a cold person. How invested can one be after 1 year? There's no comparison between that and your marriage.

I have a good friend who won't even consider dating someone exclusively for 8 months in. Why? Because he maintains that for about the first year both parties are on their best behavior, so you don't see the real person until you're close to the one year mark. Make of that what you will. Please stop owning what isn't yours to own. The expression "stay in your own hula hoop" comes to mind.

Andrew, you didn't co-sign that loan, did you? I'm confused by Kml's 'left holding the bag' comment.

At this point my friend I'm wondering on the odds of her bailing before you have a chance to air your items. Any gamblers care to weigh in?
Posted By: exquisitetobe Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 02:34 AM
I think she will bail and i also think it would be best for both Andrew and S.

Not so much for the kids. ( sad ).
Posted By: Westo Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 08:37 AM
Oh dear,

Seems like the old boy did everyone a favour by popping his clogs at just the right time and her D also gets a shiny new car to boot.

frown
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Andrew, you didn't co-sign that loan, did you? I'm confused by Kml's 'left holding the bag' comment.
(Hangs head)

All her past debts including to her former partner and payments on her van were rolled into one loan that is secured by the van. The payment is roughly what she was paying separately. As a "couple" it made a lot of sense to give her a clean break and fresh start. 4 year term I believe and fully open. She's already commented about making additional payments on it, presumably with the money she's been squirreling away. If she stops making payments then she loses her van plus her credit rating would be thoroughly trashed. She went through that before and I can't see her being willing to do that again. I know that when I co-signed a loan for my Dad (I'm a slow learner) and he defaulted that caused all sorts of problems with his credit and eventual bankruptcy.

We need to be careful here that we don't get ahead of ourselves. We can't put this all to bed and presume that she's going to go on her merry way since that's not happened. We are still a couple, still engaged, still co-habitating, her boys still think of the house as home and still - yes - financially entangled.

It's fun to speculate and muse but I need to focus on the here and now. I asked S via Messenger yesterday afternoon about the counseling. She never did respond to that being "busy". I expect she's got a lot on her mind right now and hasn't been communicative but that's not abnormal. I'm still expecting her to come home late tonight and for everything to be as it was.

I don't know how communicative she'll be about the estate, her plans etc and that will be a telling factor on where this will be going. If she's open and wants input then we're a couple. If not - she could be presumed to be looking for the door.

I did have a minor epiphany yesterday. I like to be able to summarize things in simple aphorisms "easy to love - hard to live with". I just Googled and it turns out there's a book with that title. It may be worth a read - I'll see if my library has a copy.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 12:34 PM
i would keep that counseling appointment, perhaps using it to give her an opportunity to discuss her plans in light of recent events. no way would i cancel it. if ever one needed counseling, now would be the time, imho.

i would speak to some of my items if the opportunity arose in that session, but i would tread lightly and push for that to be an ongoing thing until you got your message across completely down the road.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 12:42 PM
I echo bttrfly's sentiment...SO much to comment on. That is a LOT to "unpack" and digest, so to speak. Several things from your post hit me and then some comments by others as well. First and foremost, I do NOT think you are cold. Like others said before me, you didn't get to fully develop a relationship before you got steamrolled into being a fiancé with a live-in partner (and ALL her chaos) and talking of planning a wedding when she isn't even divorced yet. That's a LOT Andrew. A whole lot. I honestly don't use this phrase very often because I just think it is kind of stupid and I'm too old to use it, but S and her whole situation are one big old hot mess.

As far as the "new" developments, refresh my memory again (sorry, I'm old and forgetful)….is S13's dad (the one who is talking of moving into the house with S and brood) the husband that she is not actually divorced from yet? I'm sorry, but that whole conversation about him moving in just seems super sketch to me. And, then you casually mention it has been talked about before? I'm wondering if this is the guy that I (and I think bttrfly agreed with me too) thought a few weeks back was her "waiting in the wings" guy. Number 4, maybe? I can't recall….I need graphs and charts to keep up with them all, but there was one who I had the distinct impression she might come back around to and I think this is him and now you are saying that there has been talk before of him staying with them wherever they were. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…………………………..

Honestly, I'm not sure why you say that this is an opportunity for her to be fully on her own. She isn't on her own, she's still living off another man, who just happens to have passed on. S clearly is not a money manager so I can't imagine that she will be able to be fiscally responsible for a big house in nice neighborhood by herself, but then again, maybe that is where S13's dad comes into play...not sure. Whatever actual money she inherits will likely be frittered away. And, good luck to S13 on getting his $2000 at 18. It will be long gone, likely before he turns 14.

There is a lot more I could say, but I'm going to just let it lie for now. To me, I think the best outcome would be for her to decide that living in that house is what she needs to do and you could get her shuffled over and then kind of fade into the background. I think, in that scenario, the likelihood of her son wanting to stay on with you is probably higher, but that is something that you will have to work through between yourselves.

I don't know, Andrew, and I know there are things that are going on that you aren't sharing, which is fine, but just from what you are laying out there, I'm getting the feeling more and more like S is incredibly opportunistic and always looking for the next big thing. I suspect that if she can get into that house and she can move S13's dad in that you will be a distant memory, baby sitting all her crap until she can be bothered to come retrieve it, which will be around the 42nd of NEVERember.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 12:43 PM
Oh and by the way, Westo totally wins the internet with that "popping his clogs" comment. I am still laughing!
Posted By: Westo Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn70
Oh and by the way, Westo totally wins the internet with that "popping his clogs" comment. I am still laughing!


lol! Yes I believe it’s a British term,

Also.....kicking the bucket grin
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 01:58 PM
Kicking the bucket is pretty common for my southern vernacular, but popping his clogs was a new one. That was why it struck me so funny. Of course it isn't funny that the man died, though...……..
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 02:13 PM
I again typed a whole post and deleted.

You co-signed a loan with someone who is awful with money and barely has any of her own.

You are waiting for her to go on her merry way, which she may not do, instead of doing what’s right for yourself and choosing to go on her merry way.

She is horribly irresponsible with money. I would not imagine she is going to use it to pay down those loans. It won’t destroy her credit, she already had bad credit, that’s why you had to co-sign. Yours on the other hand is in grave danger.

I would bet the farm on the fact she will waste her money away on stuff like hoarders do rather than responsibly paying off debts. She just has more play money in her pocket now.

This isn’t going to play out like you hope. You have hinged hope of her doing the right things. And she hasn’t .
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 02:22 PM
I agree with what G said. It would be a neat and tidy little wrap-up if she did just go on her way right on to the dad's house. But, you have already said it may not be that way and you are still very much a couple. I know her dad's passing threw a wrench in the works, but Andrew, you can't sit around and wait for her to decide. You are going to have to take the bull by the horns on this one. I'm not saying you have to do it now, since her father just died, but I don't think this is going to play out in any other way than her maybe temporarily walking away because she has this money (and leaving you holding the bag on the loan that she won't pay) and then try to come crawling back when she fritters away what she gets from her dad so that you can support her again. She is not equipped to live totally on her own and that is no one's fault but hers (and those who enable her). She's got to have a fall back guy and, sadly, I think you are going to be that guy unless you cut ties firmly and finally. Again, not saying you have to do this now...give it a few days or weeks, by all means. But, I think what happens in the next couple of weeks is going to be very telling.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/22/20 03:08 PM
Agreed that you don’t need to do anything right now - after all, the poor man hasn’t even been buried yet.

But this is a very important time to be observant. We are all making educated guesses here but you will see a lot in the next couple of weeks that should inform your decision. Is she grieving the loss of her father ? Or just gleeful about taking over his house and letting her dog on his couch? Is she trying to be fair in executing the will? Or is she trying to cheat her brother out of major things? (I’m not talking about ordinary household furnishings, which are probably worth very little in resale and brother has already demonstrated no interest). How does she respond when you bring up the idea of paying off the loan?

And - Andrew, it’s ok to be sad about the romantic side of this relationship. That was a positive thing. It just may not have been enough to overcome the many obstacles and differences.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/23/20 07:27 PM
S came home very late last night. I now know more.

First things first - she says she'll cancel the couples counseling appointment for next Tuesday. We are very much on edge with each other in our interactions. Lots of unspoken words makes things very uncomfortable. I'm doing my best to be supportive but also not pretending that there are no issues.

I think that we / I may be on the hook for a number of expenses. The insurance policies are modest and one may well be stuck in probate as it may still list his wife (dead for 10 years) as the beneficiary. Goes to show that some people aren't as organized as you might think. A small policy will cover the basic death expenses at least and those funds are going to be available soon-ish.

I do think that the phrase "Easy to love, hard to live with" fits this situation to a "T" - more or less - more below.

S made some comments that could have been interpreted as snarky about how nice and peaceful the house must have been and how I must have enjoyed keeping things tidy. I chose to treat them positively and did agree that it was indeed nice and quiet.

She'll probably be leaving again either on Sunday or Monday and will probably be gone most of the week.

S did post a couple of pictures on social media of her Dad along with an announcement today from Thanksgiving and surprisingly one has me in it.

--------------------
I did some reading back as I do from time to time, this time with a specific purpose. My heavens - what a cautionary tale - of cautions clearly stated and then ignored by our intrepid hero.

I think that if menopause hadn't hit that as doodler kept suggesting, a baby might have been involved given the aggressive tactics and timetable.

10-Aug-19 (estimated) Mention to cafe staff (including S's daughter) that I'm now single again
First contact 25-Aug-19
Asks me out 5-Sep-19 after I am friendly but not obviously interested
First date 29-Sep-19
2nd Date the next Saturday and first kiss - initiated by S.

Engaged 25-January. I found the post
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2883176
S and I were having an argument. She is after me because I am working myself too hard and she's worried about me, especially my health. Wants to help me but I won't let her. Pushes me hard, I had been planning on waiting until mid-summer for the engagement to give her time for her divorce plus to make sure it was the right thing. Timeline now expedited.

Couldn't find the post specifically on the moving in. She spends quite a bit of time here, especially after the engagement and spends multiple days at a stretch here soon bringing the dog and her youngest along with her plus a lot of "stuff" back and forth. By March the dog is moved in and S is spending much of her time along with her youngest. Her second youngest is left at the apartment.

Comments are made about my son moving out so that they can move in. I resist.

I can't put my finger on the exact post but sometime around mid-April we have another fight where S is upset that I'm vague about when she can move in. The particular event was just after I made a comment after she had spent 3 consecutive days here that I had thought we were still dating and she storms off and then loses (?) her engagement ring.

She comes back to visit - we fight some more with S saying that she wants to give notice on her apartment but because I'm vague she doesn't know for when. By this time my son had his apartment and so I make the decision that move-in is the long weekend in May.

A pattern. Easily visible to everyone including me now. One that I know that I'm vulnerable to. Upset pretty girl who uses guilt on me, I fix things.

One to watch for and manage. 'Cuz it's going to happen again. And for women looking on how to "land a man" - this does work, but leaves them resentful.

We have a "lot" of work to do. S made a comment today again that she really likes how things are tidy and that I like tidy. Right now she's doing some sorting and organizing.

Well - time to post. We just had a tornado warning but down here in the valley I'm not worried.

"Interesting times" indeed.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/23/20 08:09 PM
Ok, Andrew....far be it from me to take it easy on you. Why in the world would "we" be on the hook for things related to her dad's death, particularly if she has been stashing money and not contributing to other household stuff. I realize now is not the time to play tit for tat, but this one should seriously be on her to figure out and not further entangle you or needlessly empty your personal coffers. That isn't right. I would like to say surely she knows that, but I know that is a pointless statement as even if she does know it, she likely doesn't care and you are too nice a guy to say no.

I'm honestly glad to see that you are reading back and seeing what we were all saying all along. I don't say that in the spirit of "I told you so" because even I am not that harsh, but more in the spirit of I hope that helps your learn different ways moving forward so that you may not get yourself in quite an encumbrance next time around. I am not the least bit surprised that you think her lost ring came at such a weird coincidental juncture, but I recall at the time how you explained it away as being like her. (There may be a small "I told you so" here, but I'll just let it go...……)

As far as pretty girls using guilt on you and your fixing it....stop that right now! Easier said than done, I know, but I hope all of this with S will serve as a cautionary tale for you moving forward to be more wary of that kind of behavior and maybe try NOT to give into it.

You are who you are and you, by nature, are a nice guy and a rescuer, so I KNOW it is very easy for me (or anyone else for that matter) to sit here and tell you what to do or not do, but it is something that you have to figure out for yourself. I just hope that you will look up all that you have lost and given up because of this one guilting you and think twice about how you respond with the next one.

(((Andrew))) I so wish I could wave a magic wand and help you make this all go away. Patience, my friend. Good things come to those who wait.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 10/23/20 08:57 PM
Ummm, why are you on the hook for anything to do with her father’s death? You aren’t married to her and he wasn’t your father in law. Perhaps her current husband should be on the hook??

Seriously. The expenses that arise from her fathers passing are not yours to incur. You have already incurred most of her expenses
Posted By: exquisitetobe Re: And now another special feature - 10/23/20 09:26 PM
Andrew, please do not offer any financial help. You already co-'signed for her. This is a S's family matter. She can ask uncles, aunts, cousins or even her kids for help. At least, they' ll have a better chance of getting their money back.
You on the other hand will never see a dime of it. She has given you the duty to provide for her family, fully and completely. And what exactly is her part and duty?

Help her by offering her ideas and options she can use to get this money ON HER OWN! Let her be the RESPONSIBLE ADULT she should be.

((( Andrew)))
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/24/20 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by AndrewP
S came home very late last night. I now know more.

First things first - she says she'll cancel the couples counseling appointment for next Tuesday. We are very much on edge with each other in our interactions. Lots of unspoken words makes things very uncomfortable. I'm doing my best to be supportive but also not pretending that there are no issues.

exactly when it's time to go to counseling, not cancel... please keep that appointment.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/24/20 01:44 AM
Andrew 0 I echo everyone else - do not pay for anything. I'm going to go further. Check out CODA meetings. I think you need some support.
Posted By: devvo Re: And now another special feature - 10/24/20 03:01 AM
Andrew, there are more red flags here than at a Chinese rally. I can't believe you can't see them and to be blunt, I don't believe you can't see them either.

I 100% agree with bttrfly. You need to address your very obvious co-dependency issues.
Posted By: job Re: And now another special feature - 10/24/20 02:30 PM
Andrew,

Do not offer to assist in paying the bills of her father and the estate. If anyone should be coughing up money, it is her sibling(s). You are not married to her, in fact, she's still married to someone else.

If I were in your shoes, I would keep the counseling appointment even if you have to go by yourself. It's well worth the time and money to try to sort out things that have been waving red flags since move in day back in May. It would be a good time for you to lay everything out on the table w/o her being there to throw a hissy fit.

Please, please listen to the posters...her father's funeral expenses, etc., are not your responsibility. You've taken on way too much of the responsibility already that should be squarely on S's shoulders.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/24/20 06:12 PM
So if there’s a small policy that covers the funeral expenses, why do you have to spend any money? Please don’t pay the probate costs. That’s on her and her brother. They will be the ones benefiting from it.

If the will specifies the house is split 50:50, it should be sold ASAP. But I’m betting S plans to stay there as much/long as possible. Which will, of course, reduce the value of the home.

Presumably her father’s retirement savings/bank accounts will also be split - that money should be relatively easy to get if they are specified as beneficiaries. If the beneficiary of the larger life insurance policy is a wife who was not S’s mother then that money might go to her heirs, whoever they may be.

I would stay out of it as much as possible except where it affects you directly.

As for the possibly snarky responses to you cleaning the house - just so you know, the proper response of someone who is not a hoarder but simply overwhelmed with the job of organizing might have been “ Andrew, the house looks great. I’m SORRY I haven’t been more help with getting it done”.

Instead you got a defensive response - and that comes from either the hoarding or the reactivity against her dad
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/24/20 07:16 PM
Just a thought experiment for you, Andrew - what would be a good outcome for YOU of couples counseling? Are you hoping the therapist can convince her not to be a hoarder? To get a job? To pull her weight?

Because if that’s the outcome you’re hoping for, I think it’s very unlikely to happen. Hoarders are difficult to treat and usually aren’t interested in changing until things are intolerable to them, which doesn’t really happen much.

If your goal in counseling is to reach some kind of equilibrium between her hoarding and your happiness- that’s not likely to happen - I’d guess you’re always going to lose that one.

I know I haven’t listed all the possible outcomes - my point is just to think hard about what a really good outcome would look like to you, and whether that’s feasible.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/25/20 01:43 PM
A bit dis-jointed this morning. I don't have the time or energy for some of the editing and re-organizing of my thought flow that I usually do.

Originally Posted by devvo
Andrew, there are more red flags here than at a Chinese rally. I can't believe you can't see them and to be blunt, I don't believe you can't see them either.

I 100% agree with bttrfly. You need to address your very obvious co-dependency issues.
I disagree with your arm-chair diagnosis of co-dependency. There is a tendency here to toss around blame-the-victim labels including this one. It is unproductive and for those in a more vulnerable state like I was years ago in Newcomers, can do actual damage.

I know that I have issues. I am too trusting. I can fairly easily be bullied into taking actions that I later regret as is the case here (again). But other than being affected by the issues of my partner, I'm not enabling nor is my own life wrapped up in trying to "fix" her's which is my understanding of the definition of co-dependency.

Originally Posted by kml
So if there’s a small policy that covers the funeral expenses, why do you have to spend any money? Please don’t pay the probate costs. That’s on her and her brother. They will be the ones benefiting from it.
Sorry for any possible confusion. I was never implying that I would be assisting with covering the costs directly related to her Dad's passing. I was figuring though that we may have to cough up a few bucks to pay utility bills etc to keep the house running until they can get it all settled out. It does seem that the death business is a well oiled machine though and S has been guided to a number of service firms that will guide her and assist her with the various issues. Personally I don't have absolute faith in well oiled machines but then again, I'm not involved and from the little I've learned they seem to be very competent. I am sure that they have methods of making sure that the heat and electricity stay on and that his car payment is made. There is an awful lot I don't know about how being dead works.

Originally Posted by kml
Just a thought experiment for you, Andrew - what would be a good outcome for YOU of couples counseling? Are you hoping the therapist can convince her not to be a hoarder? To get a job? To pull her weight?
I do know that this therapist has been working with S for some time on her various issues. But I also recognize that long term, sustained changes are unlikely. S is aware - perhaps more than most - of what her issues are and what the coping mechanisms are. She just svcks at implementing them.

Setting aside a "good" outcome, the ideal outcome would be for the counselor to work with us on how to end things in a respectful, compassionate, but definitive fashion. It saddens me to think that.

A good outcome would be to provide me / us with the tools to be able to work together on a living arrangement that is acceptable to us both. More and more, I feel that to be an unlikely, but not impossible accomplishment. It would require a commitment from both of us to "do better" in creating a living environment that is healthy and productive for us both.

-----------

S is (probably) heading back to her Dad's house this afternoon and is planning on not coming back until Friday. She said she will probably go while I'm out for brunch with my son. I nudged her to take her dog again as I am at the plant 2 days this week and cannot take care of her. She suggested S18 be responsible but then backed down from that quickly.

Certainly a very tense weekend here in many ways. I did let S know that I had found some of the words I'd been looking for "easy to love, hard to live with". To nobody's surprise she rebutted immediately that my ex-wife was a hoarder and an all-round nasty person and that I was good with that. Implying that she wasn't nearly so difficult. I don't think she "got" my response that she's taken that to a whole new level on the hoarding part at least. To illustrate that it takes time to get comfortable with someone else, I did say that as far as a "perfect match" goes that perhaps there was just the one person - my ex - who I could live with without working at it. Because we had so much practice getting used to each other's ways. That did "not" go over well even when I commented that there was no way on this earth that I would entertain her coming back. I was trying to illustrate that it takes time for people to get used to each other and especially when you get older and used to something that having something different is difficult. S has never had any stable long-term relationship (I believe) so doesn't have that frame of reference. I think that this wasn't a productive line of conversation though with her (dodges the bricks being thrown).

We spent a couple of hours watching TV together last night. She had been binge-watching baking shows and so I asked for something a bit more thoughtful like a mystery. Poirot would have been my choice - surprisingly she is not at all familiar with Agatha Christie other than general knowledge of the author. That wasn't available though and so we watched a couple of episodes of "Monk". I teased and she teased back that living with a character like Monk was probably as difficult as living with me. For those unfamiliar with the show, the Monk character is stricken with OCD and phobias especially around cleanliness and organization and will obsessively clean and tidy.

She has let drop a number of comments which I'm choosing to not interpret as snarky about how much I'll enjoy having the house to myself and be able to clean and tidy and drink beer. Hey - it's true. I did assure her that I would certainly miss having her to cuddle up with.

It perhaps didn't help that after we watched TV that I did the dishes, cleaned the cat-boxes and then swept the stairs and the cobwebs that I had noticed in the living room ceiling. This place "really" needs a good clean. She at least didn't try to stop me this time telling me that "the boys are supposed to do the stairs".

I think that what S really really wants me to do is to just grow a pair - tell her bluntly that this isn't working out and to haul herself, crew and hoard out onto the street. She's had this happen to her before I think. Someone who is trying to be compassionate and isn't a jerk is I think different for her. This would put the blame and onus completely on me and not her and would make it easier on her in some ways. On the other hand, I would prefer it to be a mutual choice to either split or work on things and at this point "work on things" is where we are at.

I think one of the challenges with her and her former partner is that the guy - from all accounts - is a decent enough guy who would I think like to have her back under his terms. The reasons S used, I am now confident, his gambling, lies and secrecy about his activities as an excuse to move out. But kept being drawn back in and did take advantage of his good nature to store quite a lot of stuff at his house. It was on-again and off again for now going on 8 years. And as has been speculated, she may chose to "give it another try" with him if she leaves here. I wouldn't be surprised. They've never really let go of each other despite S's assurances to me that it was very much over years and years ago.

S has made a comment several times that she didn't take having her boys and herself move in here lightly - putting the onus on me for that choice which is no surprise. I didn't say no so I will accept that. I had been told up to a few days before move-in that it would only be S13 - but it is what it is - to paraphrase a certain orange politician.

S did do quite an amount of laundry this weekend though and even folded mine that was in her way in the dryer. She also found most of the laundry room floor, picking up and putting away the random baskets of clothes and this and that that were there. It had been impossible to get to the pantry shelves without stepping in/on stuff so this is very helpful.

She never cooked a meal all weekend. Friday we ordered fish and chips from the new shop around the corner. Fairly decent. Last night S ordered in pizza. We do own food. I had suggested that we eat up some left-overs but she had no energy or interest in that. I suppose that I could have cooked too. I do know how to do that but S didn't seem interested in that either.

We did go grocery shopping yesterday and S suggested that we stock up on convenience food since her S18 and I would be on our own (the freezer is full of convenience foods). She was startled and I think offended when I got fresh vegetables, yogurt and other things and said that I would probably make a couple of stir-fries, and also pack my lunches the way that I used to. Frozen pizza was purchased for S18. S bought some groceries for herself that she'll take saying that she will probably make spaghetti. If she is there by herself, that's an odd choice as she usually makes enough for 8. She has pretty much zero experience though cooking for one and that is her general "go-to" as it was for my ex-wife. I always knew when it was a "minimal effort" day when pasta was on the table.

Even though I think it's adding on complexity that perhaps isn't good for S right now given everything else she is dealing with, she is intending on making a fresh appointment for us to go to counseling next week (start of November). I can in many ways feel her literally pulling back from me - last night she spent a bunch of time on the edge of the bed. Usually she's sprawled largely on my side. The attraction and love are there still. I can feel it. But I can feel her slipping away as well. And she can perhaps feel me not pulling her back in.

I think the words I found are helpful to us both. I think I've been able to reassure her that I do love "her", just not "living" with her. I am committed though to giving this my best and most honest shot while not subordinating my own needs to have a healthy environment to live in. If she is unable to live in that environment as a contributing member, then we'll need to part ways as I can't do it all alone.

It's not going to be easy. In part because S has a mind-set that others will take care of things and that it's the responsibility of others to fix them. Easier when she had a house-full of kids perhaps that she could chore-chart and nag. Her oldest really took care of pretty much everything and everyone from a very young age I am sure. She has asked me to talk to S18 about cleaning his room and rabbit hutch (very barnyard here) and to say that it was me asking and not her. While I know it to be the case, I can't comprehend the mind-set where you are sure that your kids will listen to a virtual stranger vs their own mother.

I don't know how relationships "usually" end. In most cases I've been the guy who gets dumped - often as a shock to me. Sometimes gently, sometimes not. In a few cases the person I've been involved with and I have drifted apart and then just lost touch. Certainly easier in the pre-social media world of the 1980s.

On the other hand, I have less experience with making a difficult relationship work other than that one case that turned out rather well over-all until the end. Which I am still confident had nothing to do with me as a husband, father and partner.

Ah well - positive attitudes gives positive feelings. It should be a good day today. I get to see my son and "the girls". I may get some tidying done - perhaps try to scrub the cat pee stink out of the laundry room floor. Might have a nice soak in the tub with - gasp - a bottle of wine and a good book. My current plan is to broil up some steaks and do up potatoes - perhaps home-made baked wedges or maybe baked for her son and I for dinner tonight.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/25/20 03:52 PM
Andrew, any of this ring a bell?

* Difficulty making decisions in a relationship
* Difficulty identifying your feelings
* Difficulty communicating in a relationship
* Valuing the approval of others more than valuing yourself
* Lacking trust in yourself and having poor self-esteem
* Having fears of abandonment or an obsessive need for approval
* Having an unhealthy dependence on relationships, even at your own cost
* Having an exaggerated sense of responsibility for the actions of others

Has a yes answer to any of the above questions made your life unmanageable?

Denial is more than a river in Egypt.

I'm putting down the 2x4 now.
Posted By: DonH Re: And now another special feature - 10/25/20 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP
I disagree with your arm-chair diagnosis of co-dependency. There is a tendency here to toss around blame-the-victim labels including this one. It is unproductive and for those in a more vulnerable state like I was years ago in Newcomers, can do actual damage. I know that I have issues. I am too trusting. I can fairly easily be bullied into taking actions that I later regret as is the case here (again). But other than being affected by the issues of my partner, I'm not enabling nor is my own life wrapped up in trying to "fix" her's which is my understanding of the definition of co-dependency.

Oh, now here comes the stubbornness. I’ll agree, none of us have the training or experience to hang a diagnosis here. But, clearly there is something within you that could use a professional adjustment. It’s glaringly evident.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
S is (probably) heading back to her Dad's house this afternoon and is planning on not coming back until Friday. She said she will probably go while I'm out for brunch with my son. I nudged her to take her dog again as I am at the plant 2 days this week and cannot take care of her. She suggested S18 be responsible but then backed down from that quickly.

See, to my eye, this seems very much like enabling. Beyond that, S is “probably” heading back this afternoon and “probably” living there for the week? Probably? Did the two of you not discuss it? Or do you just not trust what she told you? Either way, how is this part of a healthy R? She does whatever she wants and you fund it. Like a car payment for her father. How in the heck should you be making or helping to make this payment?

Originally Posted by AndrewP
She never cooked a meal all weekend. Friday we ordered fish and chips from the new shop around the corner. Fairly decent. Last night S ordered in pizza. We do own food. I had suggested that we eat up some left-overs but she had no energy or interest in that. I suppose that I could have cooked too. I do know how to do that but S didn't seem interested in that either.


Why does S get to make all of these decisions? Why do you have zero say in your own house? with things that you then have to pay for - and we know you paid for the take out - correct? Again, I don’t know if this is enabling or codependency, but it’s certainly not healthy.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
I think that what S really really wants me to do is to just grow a pair - tell her bluntly that this isn't working out and to haul herself, crew and hoard out onto the street.

I hate to speak for the others here, but I’m pretty sure this is what many of us here really want for you. S and the rest of us finally agree. smile

There’s a lot more in there but perhaps others can tackle those items. I know this remains difficult but just like S expects everyone else to take care of things, you seem to expect someone else or something else to change them. It’s here that I think Devvo, myself and others think you really could benefit from some C - but only if you truly want to change how you deal with S and others. Otherwise your quite of S seems to scream sense to me. Im willing to bet S would have much more respect for you if this were to happen. Her always getting her way slowly erodes that away.

Enjoy the time with your son. It would seem you’ve seen him more in the last month than in the mast 3. That’s great to see. And yes, I again agree with S, you will likely enjoy your week alone and a few beers. Nothing wrong with that either.
Posted By: DnJ Re: And now another special feature - 10/25/20 04:46 PM
Good Morning Andrew

My advice of “be you” a few weeks ago is around 200 posts back. Things have sure been busy in your life.

S’s lacklustre desire for what to have for supper is pretty reasonable. She is going to be depressed for a while over the death of her father. That is going to show in all kinds of ways. Staying on her side of the bed for example. Of course there are other pressures her, and you, are under; sorting out relationship strife.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
We need to be careful here that we don't get ahead of ourselves. We can't put this all to bed and presume that she's going to go on her merry way since that's not happened. We are still a couple, still engaged, still co-habitating, her boys still think of the house as home and still - yes - financially entangled.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
I think the words I found are helpful to us both. I think I've been able to reassure her that I do love "her", just not "living" with her. I am committed though to giving this my best and most honest shot while not subordinating my own needs to have a healthy environment to live in. If she is unable to live in that environment as a contributing member, then we'll need to part ways as I can't do it all alone.

When the feelings have faded and beliefs and values reassert themselves, your clear picture emerges. That is where you currently are. And the direction and heading of your values - your best and honest shot.

I am on your side and will support you.

I would like to dispel (in my humble opinion) the idea that people cannot, or do not, change. This is false. People are always changing, it is just that the rate of change is slow.

I am different than I was five years ago. You are different as well. I, and you, are also different than we were one year ago. People are continually changing.

Granted some values and convictions we carry throughout our entire lives. Beliefs are deeply ingrained and slow to change. Most times we amble along and live our values, seemly never altering them. Over time some get strengthened, some get altered, and some get discarded.

People usually do not look to affect their own belief system. Therefore, it seems that people are unable to change, due to not knowing how, and one having not recognized their own changes over time.

Absolutely S can change. So can you. Anyone can change. It depends upon them and their choice to do so. Not try to change. Do change.

Deep ingrained habits require effort and time to alter. Convictions and values would be the good habits. Addictions and vices would be the poor habits. Both are part of one’s beliefs, the system that guides us.

And by the way, good or poor, values or vices, is dependent upon viewpoint. People are seldom the villain in their own story, their beliefs are “good” in their eyes.

So how to change. First one realizes their willingness and desire to change. Then it is breaking the old habit and forming a new one. One can only influence their beliefs. One influences by utilizing that which they have direct control over - their own thoughts and physical actions.

An example is leaving dishes undone. Of course the cause in not always simple and usually the roots of one thing affect many. However, see clearly. Be accurate. Dishes undone is too vague. Dishes are unwashed, sitting on the counter and filling the sink. Why? To complicated, and the reason why doesn’t get the dishes washed, dried, and put away. (By the way, that just clearly identified the change you’d like to make)

What can one control? Themselves. Their physical action (or inaction). Every single meal. Every one! Wash the dishes. Dry the dishes. Put them away.

It takes on average three weeks of consistent effort to create a habit. It takes somewhere around twice that to break one. The habit / belief of leaving dishes “undone” can be completely altered in 9 short weeks. Maybe even less.

It takes time, with consistent effort, to break an old habit. And it takes time to create the new habit. These habits, these beliefs, are second nature to us. They appear to be who we are, for they truly are. And how many people are wanting to change who they are? We have grown accustom to ourselves. After all, we have lived with us for our entire lives. Lol

Dishes is a simple example. Although it’s roots will touch upon other things. Other habits/beliefs are obviously more complex and have more pulling at one’s self than a sink of dishes. Poor money management, living in clutter, and such are changeable once one decided too.

The idea of needing to hit rock bottom before one can change is pretty true. The fact is, the bottom is where you decide it is. Hitting it, is when you decide it is. These decisions are usually the result of some major upheaval; for example the death of a father, or the destruction of a marriage.

One doesn’t need to wait to actually hit the rock bottom and end up in an emergency from an overdose or nervous breakdown, although plenty do. One just needs to hit their rock bottom. I think most go well beyond their point due to lack of support and their own shame and guilt and the stigma attached to it prevent one from reaching out. And of course there is the wide spread misbelief of “people cannot change”.

Nothing quite like a firm belief to hamstring the process and possibility of change.

Andrew, be you.

You are committed to giving this R your best shot. So do it. Believe in it. For if you don’t believe, I guarantee that will self fulfill.

Support S through this sad and difficult time of loss. Assure her, and you, the value in your relationship. Be open with her about what you need and want. Ask her what she needs and wants. If she is happy and proud of her life. And lead by example.

I think I’ve shared plenty of my beliefs. It’s your’s that matter.

Strengthen those you like and are proud of. Alter or discard those you aren’t.

D
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/25/20 05:16 PM
Dnj - I agree that people CAN change. But sloppiness is a different thing than hoarding. The problem with the dishes MIGHT be fixable, although you are fighting a rebellious child mindset against her father, transferred to Andrew.

But hoarding is a form of mental illness, related to OCD but more difficult to treat. Her relationship to her stuff is typical for a hoarder. Unused things with price tags still on them. Buying things for future grandchildren. Difficulty letting go of anything because she “might” need it. Replacing stuff with more stuff as soon as any space is cleared.

It requires medication, an experienced practitioner, and a willing patient to conquer this. Usually what happens is the hoarders house gets cleaned out, either by family or under legal threat. But over time the problem returns, unless they are willing to cooperate with intensive treatment.

Also - re: codependency. Not everyone who is kind or even a rescuer is automatically codependent. Being manipulated by an experienced manipulator doesn’t automatically make someone codependent. Andrew might have codependency issues, or he might not.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/25/20 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by kml


Also - re: codependency. Not everyone who is kind or even a rescuer is automatically codependent. Being manipulated by an experienced manipulator doesn’t automatically make someone codependent. Andrew might have codependency issues, or he might not.


true dat. my suggestion of attending some zoom CODA meetings was so that Andrew could determine for himself if anything there resonated or was helpful. He clearly needs some help. Whether or not he wants it is not so clear.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 10/25/20 08:01 PM
I agree.

People
Can change.

If they want to.

If they see there is something they need or should change.

Otherwise, it isn’t going to happen.

And how long should we sacrifice ourselves hoping that change will happen?
Posted By: devvo Re: And now another special feature - 10/25/20 10:11 PM
Andrew, you could indeed continue with this relationship but you'd have to address the fact you have many other choices of life partner. Yes - it's most definitely possible to keep a relationship alive through difficulties provided there is an underlying level of respect for that person. I've said it before though - I don't think you respect S anywhere near enough to last the distance.

That was my original point about who pays for this. It looks like you are paying now with having to find a way to process thoughts and feelings related to unmet needs. Unfortunately though, without serious work from her end S will only continue to accumulate a long-term relationship debt that she will pay with more lost respect and belief in her suitability as a long-term partner. The fact there's no 'sunk cost' to speak of means you're in the position of truly being free to make a decision based on your needs, wants and beliefs. There is nothing really holding you back.

It's not being judgemental to dispassionately assess a potential life partner to determine whether you mesh. It's not a blame game or a way of picking a person apart - it's working out whether your shortcomings and foibles are able to work with theirs. Pretzeling yourself to deal with another person's issues is a short to medium-term solution. I think everybody in this forum understands that!

I agree with kml - I think S has undiagnosed mental health issues that will be very difficult to treat. If your best friend were offered the choice of a life partner with likely unresolvable issues, or to keep on looking for a more suitable partner, which would you counsel them to take? Be your own best friend Andrew. You deserve it.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 02:46 PM
I'm definitely in the minority with my opinion that people do NOT change. Now, people change hairstyles, weight, manner of dress and can even change their attitudes, thoughts and opinions over time. But, I just don't think people change who they inherently ARE. I mean, I suppose, as G pointed out, that if someone really wanted to change, they could, but it would take a lot of work and effort on their part, likely. Things like being an alcoholic who stops drinking or being an addict who stops using comes to mind when I think of people working to make an actual change. I think who we are is who we are, though, in general. I think S is a hoarder and whether that is part of a larger mental issue or is a product of who she was when she was younger and her sum of life experiences, only she knows that, and I'm not judging or belittling her for it, but I just don't think she'll ever change. You say that her C has been working with her on some issues. That is great she is seeking help, but if she is seeking help for these issues, it doesn't seem, at least by outward appearances, that the help is working.

I am clearly also in the minority on something else that I'm reading in these posts. I understand and appreciate the value of seeking counseling for a variety of issues and have done so more than once in my life for varying reasons, most recently a few years ago when going through my D and learning to get past all that. I think counseling is a good thing that can really benefit people in a wide variety of situations. Having said that, though, I'm wondering why the push to attend counseling with S. You have already decided this thing isn't right for you, but now you seem to be back-pedaling to working on it. Which is fine, if that is the choice you are making, but is counseling really going to change anything? Again, you say she's been seeing this person already. This may just be me and I may be thinking incorrectly here, but if I were in your shoes and I was going to agree to counseling with her, I would want to choose a different counselor who didn't know either of us because I just don't think S is getting much out of the current one, particularly if they are friends. That just seems shady to me. But then again, maybe it is just me. I can be skeptical and even a tad conspiracy theorist, but I would worry that seeing S's current counselor whom she has a friendship with might sway the bias of the situation to S's viewpoint and somehow make you come out on the negative side of the deal. I may be way off, though, so that is really just my own thoughts and opinions. You can use it or toss it out like old trash as you see fit.

I think my biggest issue of late with the whole S thing is that she goes away to deal with her father's issues, then she comes back and makes little snippy comments about the house being clean, you being alone and enjoying the quiet and your beer. It is almost like she is trying to goad you into saying that you prefer her chaos to your solitude, as though she needs some reassurance. Old Andrew would've given her that assurance that he preferred her company so I think maybe you are making some strides in asserting yourself, albeit baby steps. Baby steps are still steps, right? For me, that attitude on her part just makes her come across as even more insecure and just not the right fit for you. I also keep going back to the intellectual differences. I could've sworn you mentioned in a post that she had gone to college and majored in English. Maybe I'm getting my wires crossed on people here, but I find it hard to believe that someone who majored in English, even if she didn't graduate, would be as so poorly read and aware of things as S seems to be. You were talking about how unfamiliar she is with Agatha Christie....that seems unusual for an English major. But, like I said, maybe I'm getting my people crossed and it is someone else who was an English major.

Originally Posted by DonH


I hate to speak for the others here, but I’m pretty sure this is what many of us here really want for you. S and the rest of us finally agree.

There’s a lot more in there but perhaps others can tackle those items. I know this remains difficult but just like S expects everyone else to take care of things, you seem to expect someone else or something else to change them. It’s here that I think Devvo, myself and others think you really could benefit from some C - but only if you truly want to change how you deal with S and others. Otherwise your quite of S seems to scream sense to me. Im willing to bet S would have much more respect for you if this were to happen. Her always getting her way slowly erodes that away.


Feel free to speak for me on this one, Don. In response to your own posting that S probably wishes you would "grow a pair" and end it, Andrew, above was what Don said and I couldn't agree more. I hate to see how S leads you around by the nose and makes all the decisions and calls all the shots and you are usually very reluctant to rock the boat. I, too, like Don and others, think that you might benefit from counseling. I'm not necessarily going all in on the whole co-dependency thing because I think it is more about S being a master user and manipulator who knows how to work her wiles to get what she wants and that is not a co-dependent thing. I am just not sure that you can benefit from couples counseling with S because I don't see where she has the impetus to actually change. She seems to be quite masterful at saying just the right thing at just the right time and then failing to follow through. Remember, Andrew, ACTIONS speak far louder than words. Pay attention to what she does because that is where her true intent lies.
Posted By: LH19 Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 03:09 PM
Dawn,

Do you see the irony in your posts? You start off by saying that people don’t inherently change but you expect Andy P to change. He came to the board with NGS and he still has NGS. Nothing’s changed and nothing likely will because change is hard. Everyone’s posts to him is a waste of time.
Posted By: dream Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I'm wondering why the push to attend counseling with S. You have already decided this thing isn't right for you, but now you seem to be back-pedaling to working on it. Which is fine, if that is the choice you are making, but is counseling really going to change anything?

I'm confused by this Dawn. Because Andrew said this about his couples counseling session-
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Setting aside a "good" outcome, the ideal outcome would be for the counselor to work with us on how to end things in a respectful, compassionate, but definitive fashion. It saddens me to think that.

A good outcome would be to provide me / us with the tools to be able to work together on a living arrangement that is acceptable to us both. More and more, I feel that to be an unlikely, but not impossible accomplishment. It would require a commitment from both of us to "do better" in creating a living environment that is healthy and productive for us both.


*I think* Andrew is using the session as a way to end things. Whether it's in the actual session, or afterwards when they talk about the session and see how things are not going to work due to all of the effort needed in the relationship and to create a safe/healthy living environment.

In my first marriage, I blindly thought we'd be together forever no matter what. I've since realized that relationships are work. It's not always hard work, but there is work involved to maintain it and stay on track. Not just within the relationship realm, but also in the household and daily activities. From what Andrew has posted, I don't see continual effort put in by S. I see Andrew running around trying to maintain the household he once had while 3 additional people are living in his home, and not contributing to tidying. There are several other areas of concern, but no need to continue to re-hash them out.

I can see a lot of myself in Andrew when it comes to relationships. I stayed with my ex for far longer than necessary. I gave it my all and looking back, there's nothing more I could have done. We all have to live with the choices we've made.

-dream
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Dawn,

Do you see the irony in your posts? You start off by saying that people don’t inherently change but you expect Andy P to change. He came to the board with NGS and he still has NGS. Nothing’s changed and nothing likely will because change is hard. Everyone’s posts to him is a waste of time.


I don't think I said anywhere that I expect Andrew to change. Did I agree with Don that he should man up and end it? Yes I did. Do I think he actually will? Probably not. Andrew has to decide what is right for Andrew and we can all give advice until we are blue in the face, but if it doesn't work for him, then he isn't going to use it, just like everyone else on this board does (or doesn't, as the case may be). Yes, Andrew is a nice guy and that is NOT a bad thing. Andrew knows he is a rescuer and a fixer. Those won't likely change because they are who he is inherently. My hope in the posts I make are that something I say will at least get Andrew to think about things, so that is why I post. Maybe that will happen and maybe it won't. That is up to him because ultimately, he has to live with the decisions he makes.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 03:58 PM
People CAN change but they seldom DO change. Most of us here are proof that a crisis like a WAS CAN lead to significant personal change IF you are willing to look at yourself. Hoarding is a mental illness that is difficult to treat.

As for NGS, I agree with Dawn - being a nice guy is not a bad thing. Having poor boundaries and letting people walk over you is a different thing. But wanting to do the right thing, and caring for others, is not a bad thing.

(Side not - not to be political, but heard some people being interviewed about their choices yesterday, and one guy said - proudly - that he voted solely on who he thought would lower his taxes. And I thought that was one of the most despicable things I had ever heard - no care for others whatsoever, just pure unashamed self interest).
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by dream
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I'm wondering why the push to attend counseling with S. You have already decided this thing isn't right for you, but now you seem to be back-pedaling to working on it. Which is fine, if that is the choice you are making, but is counseling really going to change anything?

I'm confused by this Dawn. Because Andrew said this about his couples counseling session-
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Setting aside a "good" outcome, the ideal outcome would be for the counselor to work with us on how to end things in a respectful, compassionate, but definitive fashion. It saddens me to think that.

A good outcome would be to provide me / us with the tools to be able to work together on a living arrangement that is acceptable to us both. More and more, I feel that to be an unlikely, but not impossible accomplishment. It would require a commitment from both of us to "do better" in creating a living environment that is healthy and productive for us both.


*I think* Andrew is using the session as a way to end things. Whether it's in the actual session, or afterwards when they talk about the session and see how things are not going to work due to all of the effort needed in the relationship and to create a safe/healthy living environment.

In my first marriage, I blindly thought we'd be together forever no matter what. I've since realized that relationships are work. It's not always hard work, but there is work involved to maintain it and stay on track. Not just within the relationship realm, but also in the household and daily activities. From what Andrew has posted, I don't see continual effort put in by S. I see Andrew running around trying to maintain the household he once had while 3 additional people are living in his home, and not contributing to tidying. There are several other areas of concern, but no need to continue to re-hash them out.

I can see a lot of myself in Andrew when it comes to relationships. I stayed with my ex for far longer than necessary. I gave it my all and looking back, there's nothing more I could have done. We all have to live with the choices we've made.

-dream


Maybe we are just interpreting differently, dream. I don't know. I stand by what I said, but even in the example you gave of what Andrew said, he seems to be saying both things. He first says the good outcome of counseling would be working with them to end things in a respectful way. The very next paragraph says it would provide them tools to be able to work together on a living arrangement that is acceptable for both. Maybe he was talking about moving apart from each other in that, but that wasn't how I interpreted it, which prompted my comments about back pedaling, because I interpreted his comments as either wanting the counselor help them separate or help them resolve issues and stay together. Again, as I said to LH, everyone has their own opinions and Andrew will do what is right for him. I merely offered my own opinion, as we all do when we post to others, and he can take what I said or he can leave it...that is his decision to make and whatever he decides he has to live with the outcome. I don't happen to think that counseling with S is going to do anything, but I'm clearly in the minority and that is ok. Andrew obviously thinks it will help and that is the important part. What I think really doesn't make one d@mn bit of difference to anyone.

And, to kml's point about people changing. That is what I was getting at but maybe didn't say it well. I do think people have the ability to change. I just think it is rare that they actually DO change. By in large, people do not change who they are inherently without some big push and a lot of hard work and most people just don't put in that sort of effort.
Posted By: LH19 Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 04:13 PM
Ok ladies so you know I meant it tongue and cheek. Also my point was Nice Guy Syndrome is in DB 101. You doing something nice for someone and don’t get the response you want and then you get mad about it. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Andrew has been on here for 4 years and ultimately he has learned nothing. Hence he won’t change and quite frankly doesn’t have to but keeps running into Einstein’s definition on insanity.
Posted By: LH19 Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 04:26 PM
K we are saying the same thing. NGS is trying to please someone and when they don’t get what they are looking for in return they get angry and become resentful and P/A because they don’t have boundaries.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 04:43 PM
If Andrew one day said “ I really want to work towards having boundaries and being able to enforce them. The current status is not working well for me”

And then S said “ my hoarding and laziness is becoming a really big problem problem in my life and for my relationships, I really want to work towards changing that “

Maybe then Things could work

What are the odds of the stars aligning? Ehhhh
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Ok ladies so you know I meant it tongue and cheek. Also my point was Nice Guy Syndrome is in DB 101. You doing something nice for someone and don’t get the response you want and then you get mad about it. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Andrew has been on here for 4 years and ultimately he has learned nothing. Hence he won’t change and quite frankly doesn’t have to but keeps running into Einstein’s definition on insanity.

yeah, may have been tongue in cheek but i cannot deny that at times i've felt that way.

i've seen people grow exponentially and change the most outrageous behaviors. I have also seen people change, turning from the light and love in their loves to embrace a whole lot of ugliness. really it's about motivation, imho
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by dream
*I think* Andrew is using the session as a way to end things. Whether it's in the actual session, or afterwards when they talk about the session and see how things are not going to work due to all of the effort needed in the relationship and to create a safe/healthy living environment.

In my first marriage, I blindly thought we'd be together forever no matter what. I've since realized that relationships are work. It's not always hard work, but there is work involved to maintain it and stay on track. Not just within the relationship realm, but also in the household and daily activities. From what Andrew has posted, I don't see continual effort put in by S. I see Andrew running around trying to maintain the household he once had while 3 additional people are living in his home, and not contributing to tidying. There are several other areas of concern, but no need to continue to re-hash them out.

I can see a lot of myself in Andrew when it comes to relationships. I stayed with my ex for far longer than necessary. I gave it my all and looking back, there's nothing more I could have done. We all have to live with the choices we've made.

-dream
Sheesh! I go and do some some work and then there's another 4 pages here? Do none of you have lives either? laugh crazy And you've broken the DB site in the process too!

dream - you are right as you so often are. I would not be honest to myself if I just pulled the chute on this without trying everything reasonably possible to make it work. I'm just not selfish enough to look myself in the mirror if I did that unilaterally. Like when I finally gave up on my marriage, I was able to look at myself honestly and know that I had done everything possible to do the impossible and that I had no regrets of paths not taken.

If this was still just dating - which is where it should have been - then ending things is much more guilt-free. But I willingly allowed myself to be pushed into a timeline that I have been uncomfortable with.

S knows she has mental health issues. Some of them at least the ADD are well diagnosed and there must be 4 bookshelves of books on the subject which she also reads to the kids. There are also piles of relationship books here too. Do she or her counselor recognize that some of these can be destructive to her relationship? Dunno. One of the reasons why I am in favour of seeing this particular counselor is that all that background work of understanding S has we can presume been done already and we can focus on the relationship part.

I also know that I have my own issues which are firmly rooted. Just like my father, I give people the benefit of the doubt, undoubtedly more than I should. He was a kind man who was in the end taken advantage of by numerous unscrupulous people.

I'm not overly optimistic though. S has been through multiple failed relationships and I know that the one with her former partner (she's had others since) had core issues around finances, housekeeping and communication as well. It didn't help that at least from my point of view that neither S nor the kids had a lot of respect for the guy. She recognizes that she moved too fast then and here she is repeating the same pattern again. No amount of reading books will make a person change. As has been stated, she has to want to change for her own reasons and then implement those changes even if difficult. I don't know if she can do that. Again - bad comparison to my ex who was also avoidant of anything difficult or where she could be interpreted as being wrong.

In other news I had a nice visit with my son, rubbed some cat bellies that I've been missing. When I got home, I went and scrubbed the floors in both bathrooms and the laundry room. There was quite a stink from the prior cat fights in the laundry room so hopefully this will help. It's nice to see the floors gleam again. I think the last time I was able to scrub them had to have been summer of 2019. Heck, it was nice to see the floor laugh I did have to put back in a fair amount of stuff into the laundry room that I had to move.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 08:09 PM
Quote
I would not be honest to myself if I just pulled the chute on this without trying everything reasonably possible to make it work


Andrew - this is NOT a marriage. While it's appropriate to "try everything to make it work" once you've made that commitment in marriage, it is NOT appropriate to apply that to dating situations (yes, even dating situations where you've been prodded into proposing and cohabiting too soon). Dating and engagement are periods to DISCOVER more about the other person and whether you are truly compatible. It's a time to start to see and investigate the red flags.

Would you advise an engaged person whose fiancee cheated on them to go through with the wedding and work on making the relationship work, or would you advise them that it's good they found out before the wedding that they are a cheater and to get the heck out? I'd say most people would chose the latter.

You've found out during this time of cohabiting that S is very different from the image you had of her in your mind, and that her hoarding problem is not something you can/want to live with.

I think what G said is key:"And then S said “ my hoarding and laziness is becoming a really big problem problem in my life and for my relationships, I really want to work towards changing that “"

If she's not capable of saying that and following through on that (which it certainly sounds very UNLIKELY) then I really don't see that it makes any sense to keep trying to make this work.
Posted By: job Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 09:08 PM
Andrew,

I am curious...are all of her kids by the same father, i.e., the last one she was married to? I can't help but wonder if all of the men that she's been married to and gone w/didn't have the same issues with her living arrangements as you do.

The hoarding will not get better in time. As it has been pointed out, hoarding is a issue that is very, very difficult to break, if ever. She's formed an attachment to all of that stuff she's moved into your home, has at her h's place, etc. She can't face letting any of it go. Problem is, a lot of that stuff will never be used by her or her children and as time moves along, some of that stuff will dry rot or just plain fall to pieces and/or rust away. I don't see this particular behavior changing. Sure, she'll make an effort, but it will not last very long.

She has been so use to living in chaos that she's blind to it all as well as nose blind to the odors. Trust me, you may have your house neat and tidy, as well as the floors clean at the moment, but they won't stay that way for very long. There truly is no excuse for living like that in your home. S, S18 and S13 are old enough to keep things tidy. They should be picking up after themselves as well as keeping their animal cages clean, as well as taking care of their pets.

Now, about the spending. S has absolutely no problem spending YOUR money. Instead of ordering in, if you know you have items in the freezer, call her out on this and advise her that you are not going to fork over the funds for ordering in when you can whip up a good home cooked meal.

BTW, I, like the others, think that you have given this relationship your best shot. She's been there five months and nothing has improved in the way of getting your house in order and quite frankly, I don't think she respects you as much as you think. If she did, she would be listening and doing things to make your life better. Put the wallet away, close the bank down and make her responsible for whatever expensive treats that she wants to buy and consume.

Grow some gonads and start speaking up. You, in your own way, are passive as heck. You need to be very to the point and just tell her that her hoarding and her way of dealing with household chores is not making you happy. Also, you need to address the fact that she needs to get out of that bed and take her S18 to work. She is his mother and you are not the taxi for her children. You are not their father and they are not your responsibility.

Andrew, you will know when you have had enough and I sure hope it is not far off. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it will be to tell her that she needs to go. Winter and the holidays are fast approaching...if she needs to move, it will need to be before the snow season begins.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 11:05 PM
You say you want to give this every chance you can......

There is one thing you haven’t tried

Actually having boundaries, speaking up, and not being so passive.

Is that something you want to try?
Posted By: DonH Re: And now another special feature - 10/26/20 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I do think people have the ability to change. I just think it is rare that they actually DO change. By in large, people do not change who they are inherently without some big push and a lot of hard work and most people just don't put in that sort of effort.

Of everything said, I could not agree with this statement more. I believe it is true with every inch of my being. The guy or gal you knew in high school is probably pretty much the very same person 50 years later - for sure 25. People may alter who they are but it’s rare they change. It doesn’t mean it’s not possible - just not common or likely. The sooner people figure this out the better their lives will be. How many people have you heard, after a M went bad, say, “I thought he (or she) would change after we got married.” OMG. People rarely change.

Originally Posted by Ginger1
You say you want to give this every chance you can...... There is one thing you haven’t tried - Actually having boundaries, speaking up, and not being so passive. Is that something you want to try?

Another very good point. For once I’m taking a bit of a softer approach (LH 19 - lol) but I have to say, these things keep happening, and there seems no indication Andrew even wants to change. To the contrary, I’ve seen responses that almost seem disgusted or offended with a suggestion like being a bit more alpha make - as if you’d rather lose your legs than be an alpha male. I see excuses almost like it’s better to be a nice guy who gets walked all over than stand up for yourself and risk hurting someone’s feelings. You almost wear it as a badge of honor. You see how your dad was walked over and taken advantage of but almost strive to be the same or at least see nothing wrong with it - as if being nice and not hurting someone’s feelings Trumps everything. Then again some think that voting for someone who will lower your taxes is also an evil thing. I just don’t get it. We can’t fix the world. It’s a huge bonus if we can make it tiny bit better but not at the price of being harmful or detrimental to us. Remember when people used to utter phrases like, nice guys finish last, or look out for number one? Evidently those have been added to the PUC or micro-aggression list of things you can’t think or say anymore. There’s a lot to be said for the happy middle. For sure it’s best not to intentionally cause harm - but the first person we shouid make sure is not harmed is ourselves - with the possible exception of children or family.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/27/20 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by job
I am curious...are all of her kids by the same father, i.e., the last one she was married to? I can't help but wonder if all of the men that she's been married to and gone w/didn't have the same issues with her living arrangements as you do.
The oldest D26 was as far as I know unplanned with #2 who she then had a common law relationship. S22 she was required to get a paternity test on as she was already in a relationship with #3 at that point even though she goes to great lengths on having been faithful to #2. The timelines appear a bit scrambled to me.

The other three were from her marriage to #3 - one at the very beginning and then one that coincided with each breakdown in the relationship. Money seemed to be the main problem there.

She hit menopause in her early 40s shortly after S13 was born in 2007 which was also coincidental with her formal diagnosis of ADD. She was grateful for that diagnosis because she recognized that she had zero ability to concentrate and get stuff done. She married last in 2012 after co-habitating for a year or so I believe.

I have little information on S's past house-keeping beyond hearsay from her kids - especially her oldest on how she was always picking up after her mother.

#3 was / is a definite slob and she was left on her own with the kids most of the time while he traveled for business (and emptied the bank account). If she wasn't a slob before then those years solidified that it was ok to not care.

I know that she had a lot of resentment towards her former partner and his insistence on "his" house being "just so". So I know she's capable of doing it. Just doesn't like to especially when forced. She described the joy she had on being able to load the dishwasher any old way that she wanted when she moved out.

Her Dad was very much a traditionalist who expected women to be seen and not heard and that his dinner be hot and ready on the table when he got home from work. His wife as far as I can tell was a pretty tough lady who while she did the domestic things also spoke her mind.

Originally Posted by Ginger1
You say you want to give this every chance you can......

There is one thing you haven’t tried

Actually having boundaries, speaking up, and not being so passive.

Is that something you want to try?
It's tough but I think is the best answer. I know that I have been harder on people than my Dad was and have had conversations with S about her D19's BF being a "taker" and how I did not want such people around. Even with that, it's still pretty easy to steam-roller over me.

Originally Posted by DonH
The guy or gal you knew in high school is probably pretty much the very same person 50 years later - for sure 25. People may alter who they are but it’s rare they change. It doesn’t mean it’s not possible - just not common or likely. The sooner people figure this out the better their lives will be. How many people have you heard, after a M went bad, say, “I thought he (or she) would change after we got married.” OMG. People rarely change.
Oddly I still have people come up to me who remember / recognize me from high-school and who I have no clue at all who they are.

Got the kitchen floor scrubbed yesterday, cleaned out some stuff from the fridge and had left-overs for dinner. S's response to my day and accomplishments when I messaged before turning in to bed early to read was just "love you". She did message later that she was busy and was sorry she didn't chat.

It may perhaps seem weird that when she goes away that instead of being a slob that I go full on Felix Unger and start scrubbing the house. Depending on how the day goes today I may wash the inside of the windows.

Given that she's commented in a perhaps snarky way about how I seem happier when she's not here and given her history with bad relationships she is hopefully aware that perhaps past patterns seem to be repeating. She's not a stupid person and I believe has actually read all of those relationship books that she has.

I did hear from her a short while ago - she is up astoundingly early and has to pick up her Dad's ashes. I still don't expect her home until sometime Friday - probably very late.
Posted By: Westo Re: And now another special feature - 10/27/20 02:13 PM
Andrew,

Reading above about you scrubbing the floors....... a song came into my head.

‘I’m gonna wash that man right out of my hair!’

Just saying.
Posted By: Dawn70 Re: And now another special feature - 10/27/20 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP


It may perhaps seem weird that when she goes away that instead of being a slob that I go full on Felix Unger and start scrubbing the house. Depending on how the day goes today I may wash the inside of the windows.



I'm not trying to speak for everyone, but surely I'm not the only one thinking this...…it doesn't seem weird at all because that is who you are, Andrew. You run a tight ship and want it a certain way. You don't get that when S is around because you are too nice to tell her to get her @$$ up and help and make her boys help as well. So, the fact that you do it when she isn't there isn't at all surprising to me (and likely not surprising to anyone else who has read any of your posts either). It goes back to my point and Don's agreement that people just do not typically change. You want things a certain way and you can have that when she is gone. Does that at all give you some insight into her protestations that the one X of hers wanted his things "just so"? Don't you think that is part of her narrative to manipulate? I suspect that if you all do end up apart, you will get a similar narrative when she recounts her side of the story to others.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/27/20 05:51 PM
Quote
I know that she had a lot of resentment towards her former partner and his insistence on "his" house being "just so". So I know she's capable of doing it.


I don't see how it logically follows that she was capable of doing it. Sounds more likely to me that she was NOT capable of doing it (and that his demands may be exaggerated by her, as I'm sure she exaggerates your reasonable demands to others). I imagine she tells others you are a clean freak fussbudget. Which you certainly do NOT seem to be, your requests seem quite reasonable and her sloppiness seems way out of the ordinary. While I certainly can agree that people can have very different standards of cleanliness, and I'm certainly no clean freak myself, routinely leaving food out overnight is a health hazard, and leaving dirty dishes not even rinsed overnight is an invitation to a cockroach infestation. That seems outside the realm of most adult people's standards.
Posted By: DonH Re: And now another special feature - 10/27/20 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Originally Posted by DonH
The guy or gal you knew in high school is probably pretty much the very same person 50 years later - for sure 25. People may alter who they are but it’s rare they change. It doesn’t mean it’s not possible - just not common or likely. The sooner people figure this out the better their lives will be. How many people have you heard, after a M went bad, say, “I thought he (or she) would change after we got married.” OMG. People rarely change.
Oddly I still have people come up to me who remember / recognize me from high-school and who I have no clue at all who they are.

Well, yeah, physically people change - that's pretty much unavoidable. In fact, in many ways, they change whether they want to or not - loss of hair, saggy body parts, wrinkles, etc. I'm talking about changing who they are as a person. The wise-arse is still likely the wise-arse, the driven academic is likely the same person, the bully is still the bully, and the shy, introvert is just as shy - their personalities, who they are and how they act is often very recognizable, even if their face and body are not.

But I'm pretty sure you already knew that. Odd you'd divert it to something different. I don't understand what the point was, but I don't understand many things that occur so, no difference there. LOL
Posted By: bttrfly Re: And now another special feature - 10/28/20 02:04 PM
Don - distraction technique because Andrew doesn't really a. want to or b. know how to change his own piece of this particular pie.
JMHO
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 10/29/20 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Don - distraction technique because Andrew doesn't really a. want to or b. know how to change his own piece of this particular pie.
JMHO
Or I'm completely oblivious and interpreted it differently and superficially.

-----

What a week! We're going through shutdown / plant maintenance just before month-end, inventory counts, full moon, clock changing and Halloween. I personally expect to see doodler rise from the pit we use as an environmental buffer as a specter of DB past wearing an old bed-sheet and sequined pumps holding an "I told you so" sign and asking where the really nasty stuff is stored.

Today was particularly crazy as we are hoping to get the plant started back up tomorrow morning and it's not looking good. As could be expected with something as complicated as it is and the number of things being adjusted and refreshed especially along the steam lines making sure we do it "right" is very important. Since I'm generally fairly useless with the engineering parts I traveled around picking up random parts that were needed as I was a pair of hands that could be spared. One of the engineers was joking that we needed Amazon Prime to which I replied that they had Andrew Prime where I would buy stuff on my personal credit card, pick it up, deliver it and hope that my expense report would go through. One of my roles was with the updates to the control systems which was largely finished today. Doing some more work on that tonight while reading and typing. A bunch of updates that I just need to monitor.

I think that it's appreciated that I really don't care what I'm doing as long as it adds value. I spent about 15 minutes running around the plant trying to find the driver of a particular pickup who had parked right exactly where we needed to move some equipment. A necessary job that someone had to do and certainly the guys who were doing actual real work weren't the right ones to do it. The company president was dispatched to pick up a replacement fan housing for similar reasons.

I will say that I've not had this much fun at work in years. One of the people who I regard as a role model, Admiral James Stavridis (ret) wrote in one of his several books that I own that it's better to be an officer on a small ship than a big one and being able to be involved in pretty much "everything" is certainly one of the benefits.

I messaged S when I got home and got a brief answer back. She did agree that "beer-o-clock" seemed like a good idea after such a crazy day and regretted that she couldn't do that.

----------------

S has been gone since Sunday lunch-time and as far as I know is working through things at her Dad's house. In some ways it's hard to believe that she's been gone more or less for the last 2 weeks. The house is certainly tidier and feels lighter and brighter as sad as that is to say.

I do think that she is aware that I am not devastated that she's not here and have been managing perfectly fine which I would "think" would be something that would be bothering her. I've not had much chance to do more cleaning but the house doesn't get dirty as fast with just her S18, his bunnies, her 2 cats and me here.

I've heard very little from her since she's been gone. Very few messages initiated by her, few facts. S18 has said that he's heard from her some. She did suggest yesterday that she wants to call me and misses my voice but I haven't heard the phone ring. Somewhat of a contrast to B who was constantly on the phone with me (and everyone else).

My understanding is that she's going through her Dad's (and Mom's) clothes and such-like and figuring out what is to be donated or not. She is hoping to meet with a lawyer tomorrow. She's shared nothing else about what is going on and I don't really expect her to even when she comes home this weekend.

In other news S18 found an air purifier with a washable filter at a decent price so he and I went out and bought that on Tuesday after he was done work. I don't feel that I notice the barnyard smell from his rabbits quite as much.

S18 and I have had a number of talks of varying degrees. He has a lot of depth of opinion for an 18 year old and is willing to listen to contrary opinions and absorb in new facts. He's quite smart and it's too bad that circumstances have prevented him from academic success. I think that especially without his mother pushing him along that his attempt to return to school this year has stalled.

He's commented again that I am significantly better than any of the other men his mother had been with. That she had pretty much given up on meeting anyone decent before meeting me. He's a pretty harsh critic of his mother. Nasty in fact, especially about her house-habits. He does love her sincerely but perhaps like me, finds her hard to live with. Not that he's a neat and tidy person either. He does clearly remember what the house was like before though and how much I was proud of it and I think understands that I am struggling now.

That does make one wonder if S would think that this relationship would be one that would be worth trying harder on working on herself to be a better partner for someone like me. Of the two of us she certainly is much more the one with a lot to lose if this doesn't work out. Her father's passing would help her be financially independent for a while which I am sure is on her mind.

I've been giving things a lot of thought lately and I think along with the phrase "easy to love, hard to live with", there's one key word that I think is core to the issues here. Respect.

Typing that word really makes me think. Does S in fact respect herself? She doesn't respect her environment and doesn't treat those around her with what I would think of as respect. Love yes. Respect no.

I think that one of the things she doesn't "get" about me is that while I'm not attached to things, I do respect them. Sort of a Marie Kondo thing. I look around me and the objects that I see all have some sort of meaning to me and I take care of them. The small statue of Don Quixote, the little wooden mouse my daughter gave me, heck - my pen basket, work calculator. I could go on and on. I take care of them. I also care about people and critters and take care of them too.

S doesn't. Tossing a box with my grandmother's hand-made quilt on top of a pile of other things. Pouring cooking grease into my "Dad" mug, using the good kitchen scissors to trim the dog's fur. Her kids are here, there, move out, move back. Her own father was incredibly reluctant to have S to be the custodian of his things because he felt that she wouldn't take care of them. This offended her. And he was undoubtedly right.

This also perhaps goes out to people including me and is perhaps a point of conversation that is non-confrontational enough to be of use during our - presumably - upcoming therapy session next week.

----

On another note, I came across a backup of things related to my divorce which included the surveillance videos from my wife's roaming through the house. Yeah - so much arrogance and anger. Seeing her in those now 4 year old images makes me not miss that life.

I have referred to my wife has a hoarder and perhaps she was. Certainly in the earlier part of our marriage although around the same time as she "got it" about our finances she also started purging and being proud of reducing the clutter and stuff around. I still thought that there was too much un-organized stuff piled here and there. I saw the pictures again. My word- I'd be thrilled to be back to that level of mess. The dining room was unusable yes - but most of the house was pretty well organized - a mutual accomplishment. Some piles here and there that had accreted for a decade or more, but they were small piles by comparison.

One of the things that does go through my mind is that S does know - I think - that I was happier before she was in my life and that her being away is a bit of a holiday for me. Will that help her let go of me? Will it encourage her to examine why this is the case? I don't know. Is she considering moving her and her boys to her Dad's house? It's a simple short term solution. She's already spent the better part of 2 weeks there. Will she be willing to do the hard work that we here tell people in Newcomers to do? I was thinking earlier today on what sort of feedback she would get if she were on that side of the fence and if she would actually heed it. I know that I was particularly dense and resistant. Some things never do seem to change laugh

Ah well - perhaps enough for now. I'm certainly enjoying beer #2 as I watch the numbers count up on the updates for the plant.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 10/30/20 12:07 AM
You can have respect without love.

But you cannot have love without respect.
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 10/30/20 12:17 AM
Quote
I still thought that there was too much un-organized stuff piled here and there. I saw the pictures again. My word- I'd be thrilled to be back to that level of mess. The dining room was unusable yes - but most of the house was pretty well organized - a mutual accomplishment. Some piles here and there that had accreted for a decade or more, but they were small piles by comparison.


Certainly gives you some perspective on how bad it is now, right? This is not about you being a fussbudget, it's about her hoarding. I think a lot of the other lack of "respect' comes about as a consequence of the hoarding - in that mess, you can't expect to find the right scissors to trim the dog's fur, so you grab the scissors that are available, even if they are the cooking shears. You grab any available mug for the grease because it doesn't occur to you that you could find another more appropriate receptacle.

I hear you secretly hoping she will exit without you having to be the one making that decision. That would be great if that happened but you shouldn't make big life-changing decisions based on hoping the other person will do it for you. If it's what you want, you should be prepared to accomplish it, even if it is difficult.

I find it a bit odd that she's going through her parents' clothes instead of organizing a funeral right now. I mean, going through their clothes is something that will need to be done, but it seems that other things would be a priority first? This may be a hoarding thing, she may be "shopping their closets", beware of her coming home with a bunch more stuff.

It does seem really sad that her son has suffered academically from her neglect. If he's a bright kid as you say, is there not a way for him to test out of high school, such as the GED here in the US? And then go to a community college (or whatever your Canadian equivalent is)?

It's hard for kids of hoarders. It affects their social life, their self-image. My middle son had a friend whose mother was a hoarder. I kind of suspected it as I was never invited in when I dropped him for playdates and there were always a few random items on the front porch - son told me later it was really bad inside, unusable kitchen, trails between stacks of stuff. I've often thought how sad for that kid.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 11/01/20 03:39 PM
Almost made it to page 4! This thread is about to go poof yet again I think. Sheesh - so much drama.

I was going to post today but thought that I'd wait until today when I would have more information.

Happy Sunday from blustery Upper Lower Middle Kanukistan. We are under both a thunderstorm watch and a snow-squall watch. Welcome to November. A good day to putter around the house.

S said that she'd be home on Saturday morning. To no-one's surprise she got her a bit after 6:00 pm so I had an uninterrupted day to do my historical past routine. S had a big order at the cafe to be picked up but the owner wasn't sure about giving it to me. A bit before 5:00 S texted me and asked me to pick it up. We keep a jar in the kitchen for incidental expenses "the grocery jar" so I raided it for the $50 needed. It's a great innovation suggested a lot of years ago by my ex-wife so that if we needed milk etc that we don't have to dig into our pocket money. We put $20/week into it which was the usual appropriate amount but is a bit high I think in current circumstances. It's usually running a surplus as S and the boys will go for take-out food whenever they have the nibblies and we don't go through a lot of the usual staples like milk and bread that we would normally use this for.

When S got home I'd not made dinner - wasn't really feeling hungry so she and her S18 decided that they wanted McDonalds (which I "don't" eat) so I drove in to pick that up.

It felt really really weird giving her a hug and smooch. Awkward - I think for both of us. There's a definite feeling of a wall there. She had brought little home which was a bit of a surprise. Some of her Dad's shoes for S18 who badly needs a new pair. She did show up with a brand-new carpet shampooer which was a surprise to me. She said she paid for it out of her pocket money and "some money she had". I know she really wants a new machine and that if I'd done something like this that I'd get the hairy eye-ball and a "don't you think you should have talked to me about this first" followed by anger and tears on how horrible I am. DARVO. She said that we'll talk about it. My intention had been - which we had talked about - was to rent a unit and get the rugs clean. S's attitude I think is that she "needs one" - which she certainly did in her apartment with incredibly messy kids who though nothing about food and drink falling all over the floor and pets that constantly soiled the carpets as well.

I may just decide that this isn't an important hill to die on along with questioning where she suddenly found several hundred dollars when she couldn't find money to assist with the grocery and other bills.

Surprisingly S came to bed with me last night around 9:30 and stayed. She read for a while while she and the dog took up a lot of the bed. It was a rather restless sleep for me when I eventually got to sleep. S usually is a restless sleeper and as usual will interact with me throughout the night.

I am sure that S knows that we still have problems and that I'm not addressing them right now. From her commentary she knows that I actually was perfectly fine and somewhat happy when she was gone which can't make her feel good. I think she'd like to have it all out in the open which I can't bring myself to do. I feel horrible about that but just can't seem to suck it up and face it. A sense of duty and obligation are very likely the key barriers here.

When she was gone it was in many ways like being single again albeit with the burden of her annoying cats plus the clutter and the need to be available for S18. It felt good - like I was in control of my own destiny again.

--------

S's daughter and 1 year old grandson were supposed to have driven the hour down and stopped off to pick up candy. That got cancelled when her father-in-law got sick and is being tested for COVID. The grandson is also sick now with a pretty solid fever but he's also teething and kids do get sick. S didn't tell me in advance other than "she needed to explain when she got home". She had gotten the treats with an expectation that all of her kids would be by and that they'd have a cookie decorating party. None showed up. S13 is still with his Dad (I was surprised she didn't pick him up) and her D19 and BF were presumably going to a party according to her Instagram page.

We got 14 kids to the door in about 4 batches. Several of them asked where the boat was. Certainly down from the 80+ that we would have gotten on such a perfect night. I was thinking that we might not get any. I feel pretty blue about the whole thing. Halloween is such a big day for me. I commented to S how hard it was on me this year and mentioned how it had been nice to be able to sit in the enclosed front porch to watch them going down the street and be easier to see them come to the door. The front porch is unusable as she set up her "store" there and then piled in a lot more stuff on top of that so we sat in the kitchen. I was surprised that she sat with me while I waited for the kiddies.

----

I spent a foolish bit of time these past few days scrolling through old pictures from the 1980s and 1990s. As D might say - we had a good life. Not perhaps a "great" one all the time, but there was Joy, love and affection showing in those old pictures. Unlike where kml could see how uncomfortable her ex was in those situations being documented, the woman that I used to love shone through in the bright smiles, silly actions and the just being "family" that was my life for now nearly 1/2 of it.

I know what I had. I'm pretty sure what happened. I know that while I wasn't a perfect husband, that there wasn't anything specifically to do with me that caused the end of the marriage. One key difference between with her and even with B - I was so very proud of who this person was that I was with. They were clever, capable, bright and loving. My ex and I still held hands up to just before bomb-day whenever we'd go anywhere. We were that "cute" middle-aged couple that still were obviously in love. People regularly told her how lucky she was and I think she knew that.

I've tried to find things about S to be proud of but struggle to pin that down. Undoubtedly one of my key problems as pride is so very important to me. The things that I thought she was, in tune with the universe as a spiritual person, a capable baker, a loving Mom who cared deeply for her children, a keen business person and entrepreneur, are all not the reality. I almost wrote lies but I have to take ownership of my own perceptions.

When I was out I was chatting with my old friend FSL - who unfortunately I unburdened on. One of the things that I always liked about her and that attracted me was what a great empathic listener she is. I felt bad about that - putting my burdens and venting my unhappiness on someone else isn't the right thing to do. I did tell her that I will bring her in some Halloween candy as I always do for her and her son who I think is 7 or 8 now. Where does the time go. We chatted about our normal habits - we're both it seems the "can't sit still" and need to be puttering all the time sorts.

Ah well - time to wrap this up. We have bright sunshine coming by every few minutes - going to be weird weather day. I picked up some fresh cider - might be a good day for a big mug of mulled cider with cinnamon sticks and a good book plus some puttering today. I have to take S18 to work in a few minutes. S is still in bed but was awake when I let the dog back in. Not sure what her plans are but she would probably agree that a "veg" day is a good idea.

A bien tot mes amis.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 11/01/20 06:18 PM
Had a long deep conversation with S. She challenged me to come right out and say that I wanted her to move out. I didn't. She challenged me on if the only reason that I wouldn't say that was out of a place of duty and honour. I prevaricated. It's obvious to me that she wants to put the entire onus on that choice on me which admittedly is perhaps where it belongs.

A "lot" of laundry got aired and is the better for it. There are some obvious points where we are mis-understanding each other that we both agree that we need to work on. There were a good number of tears from S as she unearthed things that were bothering her that she perhaps hadn't examined before. We're going to set aside time each week for cuddle and talk time and wait for a couple of weeks before seeing a counselor. We both, especially me, know that we need better tools on how to deal with what is bothering us.

S specifically called me out on my griping to people that she and the boys don't lift a finger around here which understandably makes her feel bad. I tried to explain that just because I didn't need or want help with what I'm doing that there wasn't lots that they could be doing but I don't think that got heard.

We talked about the fact that she went and did a major purchase without talking to me about it and how I felt that we should each be trusted to make those sort of decisions. I talked about how secrecy and lies were a big problem for me and that I was upset that she hid that from me. For her part she said that she was upset that I had shut down the idea of buying a shampooer to consider renting. Personally I think that was a bit of petulance on her part that she just went ahead and did what she wanted even after we talked.

We agreed that the phrase "easy to love - hard to live with" undoubtedly applied to both of us. We also talked about the words Pride, Joy and Respect and how those are important to me. Finding words to hang a concept on is very helpful for me.

We also talked about how I made the decisions to get engaged and for her to move in after us having a fight and how we need to make sure that pattern stops.

S went on to say how much she really really wants this house to be tidy and organized and that she just "needs more time". There is incremental and intermittent progress I admitted.

S was I think prepared for me to toss her out and has been making some plans about the practical parts of that. She said that she was completely blind-sided by my comment a few weeks ago that I didn't think things were going to work out.

Going to keep working on things.

Sigh - this shouldn't be this hard.
Posted By: LH19 Re: And now another special feature - 11/01/20 06:36 PM
Soooooo what’s changed?
Posted By: kml Re: And now another special feature - 11/01/20 06:40 PM
Quote

S went on to say how much she really really wants this house to be tidy and organized and that she just "needs more time".


Sounds good - until you realize she doesn’t “need more time” to learn to put food away and do or at least rinse the dishes.

Actions speak louder than words. Watch her actions carefully. And pay attention to how it felt to have her gone.
Posted By: Westo Re: And now another special feature - 11/01/20 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Soooooo what’s changed?


Exactly......
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 11/01/20 07:10 PM
She opened the door for you and gave you the perfect opportunity to say “this is not working for me, and yes, I want you to move out”

I know you would rather her be who you thought she was, but she is not. That’s not an option.

And I also ask the same question. What has changed?
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: And now another special feature - 11/01/20 07:11 PM
I’m still also trying to find where she is “easy to love” anytime you express yourself she puts you down, makes you feel bad and berates you. So how exactly is she easy to love?
Posted By: job Re: And now another special feature - 11/01/20 07:47 PM
It's good that the eye of the hurricane finally came to be...but it looks like the merry-go-round is still in operation. Andrew, actions speak louder than words.

I do agree w/the others....what has changed? More tears, is she in a snit and will she act all hurt and pouty for a day or so? Well, that's just the way she deals w/being called out. She'll either get over it or stay in a snit. For what it's worth, a lot of what you discussed needed to be said. Now, let's see if her actions match her words. My money is on her seriously thinking of moving out.

BTW, I would have rented a shampooer because it's cheaper and you don't have to store the equipment. Also, how many times do you actually need to use it? She doesn't sound like she's good at thinking things through and this is where I see a pattern of "splurge" shopping being done. I would have weighed the $$$ amount before I purchased the shampooer with what I owed on my bills and yes, in helping out with grocery purchases, etc.

I sense that the merry-go-round will continue to turn round and round for a while until one day, she will finally move out. BTW, one last thing...if she's so tired of you talking to others about her and the clan, etc., then she needs to go to bed at a reasonable hour, get up at a reasonable hour and get to work on cleaning and tidying up the place...you would have the need to talk to someone if she was pulling her weight around the place. The shampooer can't operate itself...now can it?

Learn to speak up more frequently and when something isn't right...point it out at that time...not later and she should do the same....it's best to clear the air when something rankles either of you.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: And now another special feature - 11/01/20 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Westo
Originally Posted by LH19
Soooooo what’s changed?

Exactly......
Not a darned thing.

I'm still a wuss who can't make a decision in his own best interest / an empathic soul who doesn't wish to hurt anyone.

Unlike might be perceived though and this is perhaps one of the issues I have is that I'm not heavily emotionally invested in the outcome. It creates a troubling cognitive dissonance.

New thread - Courage
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2907349&#Post2907349
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