It is the season when random woodland creatures think that coming into my house is a good idea. Training them to do house-hold chores can be difficult. So far none of them have asked where the broom is.
If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to ask for a glass of milk.
When you give him the milk, he'll probably ask you for a straw.
When he's finished, he'll ask you for a napkin.
Then he'll want to look in a mirror to make sure he doesn't have a milk mustache.
When he looks in the mirror, he might notice his hair needs a trim.
So he'll probably ask for a pair of nail scissors.
When he's finished giving himself a trim, he'll want a broom to sweep it up.
He'll start sweeping.
He might get carried away and sweep every room in the house.
He may even end up washing the floors as well!
When he's done, he'll probably want to take a nap.
You'll have to fix up a little box for him with a blanket and a pillow.
He'll crawl in, make himself comfortable and fluff the pillow a few times.
He'll probably ask you to read him a story.
So you'll read to him from one of your books, and he'll ask to see the pictures.
When he looks at the pictures, he'll get so excited he'll want to sign his name with a pen.
Then he'll want to hang his picture on your refrigerator.
Which means he'll need Scotch tape.
He'll hang up his drawing and stand back to look at it.
Looking at the refrigerator will remind him that he's thirsty.
So... he'll ask for a glass of milk.
And chances are if he asks you for a glass of milk, he's going to want a cookie to go with it.
rodenticide poisoning affects the food chain, meaning raptors and lovely woodland creatures who cannot go to McD's for a happy meal, so rely on the creatures eating the rodenticide as their meals. They die a horrible death of internal bleeding.
Mice hate the smell of mint. Please consider using mint essential oils on cotton balls in the basement where they are coming in as a deterrent. You will need to refresh periodically, but it will work and will not harm anyone - especially if you keep the other pets (cats especially) away from the exposed essential oils.
I read your final post on the parrot thread. All I can say is that I'm truly sorry you don't seem to have a refuge of your own in your home. Perhaps find a way to carve out something that remains sacrosanct, like a home office that no one else can come into without you being there and saying it's ok???
Thanks bttrfly. I regard poison as a weapon of last resort. I don't use herbicides even. My lawn has a high amount of biodiversity including tiny little strawberries in season. Or as others would call it - weeds. For my driveway I have a "weed dragon" that S has told me I'm not allowed to use as the boys would think it too exciting. In other spots I use a concoction based on acetic acid which makes the walkway smell like a fish and chip shop. Given this year's chaos, I've done some hand-pulling but that's about it.
There is no practical way to prevent the mice from coming in to the house but after 30 years I know their patterns. They come in through the north wall and congregate around the sump pump there which is an easy source for water for them. Generally they do seem to expire in the cellar when poisoned and stink rather badly when they do. I do worry about an ill mouse coming upstairs especially.
S is strongly against the use of poisons as well. But this is one place where I put my foot down. S and I had an argument in the summer about the number of flies that were in the house. Again - a problem I never had before. I eventually traced the problem to the kitchen compost where a significant amount of food waste is getting tossed. I wanted to use a poison to eliminate the flies as my home-made traps weren't working. S insisted on a fly strip which I felt was much crueler as it is so slow. Moving the compost barrel and then hunting down the puir flies with a swatter was my end result although a fly strip was obliged to be installed and it did catch a few.
S did have a significant fly problem in her apartment which she largely blamed (rightly) on S18's rabbits. She said she had the occasional mouse which she assumed the cats dealt with. There were certainly opportunities galore for a foraging species there. Her apartment was in the middle of an urban block without other residential around it nor green spaces so I think that helped keep the unwanted tenants out.
While I recognize that the end that the critters who are poisoned is also cruel and yes, worry about the result on the food chain, I don't see any other reasonable approach. I will certainly look in to using mint though as I would rather the mice just find somewhere else to live. Even yellow-jackets if they're not bothering me, I leave alone. Some come into the house from time to time and I wrap them up in a tissue and shoo them back outside. Among other parts of my anatomy I do believe that I have a soft and squishy heart
I've not had a mouse upstairs for years in part because of the deterrent effect of the cats but also because all food was stored in sealed containers. Certainly nothing left out overnight and any mess cleaned up promptly. Now there are accessible bags and boxes and she and the boys do seem to create a fair amount of crumbs. I figure it's only a matter of time before they get into the pantry contents. The few that did come in never made it out of the cellar and I would presume expired down there. I'd find 2 or 3 each year and smell a few that I would never find. Even when my ex was here in the later years, mice were rare.
As a laugh - years ago we used to keep pasta in plastic bags on the pantry shelves in the cellar. The bags were raided and we changed to sealed containers. Then at Christmas when I pulled the decorations out of their cardboard box out also came a huge amount of pasta that the critters had stored in there. I thought it rather funny but also clever of the wee creatures to set up their own pantry.
I'm going to take the approach that I miss the days when I had so much pride in the house. S assures me that we'll get back there.
I do have my own separate office which lately has had a futon and TV added and is where S hangs out separate from the boys in the evening. S13 has made an attempt to take this space over but I've shooed him out.
We'll see how this all turns out. Perhaps instructive to the others there watching me and my choices and struggles. It does help me to vent safely(ish) here. Sometimes I find the perceived negativity here colouring my IRL self.
More and more I get the feeling that this is just an interlude. There are some fundamental issues that I can see that have led to S's past relationships failing. She's not dealt with any of those as far as I can tell putting the onus on poor partner choices. How this would end I don't know. I do still clearly remember B recognizing that what was happening wasn't good for either of us and that she had work to do and things to take care of that prevented her from being as present in the relationship as she could have been. And I too learned that I needed to be flexible and accommodating, but only to a point.
On the other hand, I am generally a very positive and optimistic person who believes that with hard work and effort that you can achieve nearly any worth-while goal.
More and more I get the feeling that this is just an interlude. There are some fundamental issues that I can see that have led to S's past relationships failing. She's not dealt with any of those as far as I can tell putting the onus on poor partner choices. How this would end I don't know. I do still clearly remember B recognizing that what was happening wasn't good for either of us and that she had work to do and things to take care of that prevented her from being as present in the relationship as she could have been. And I too learned that I needed to be flexible and accommodating, but only to a point.
On the other hand, I am generally a very positive and optimistic person who believes that with hard work and effort that you can achieve nearly any worth-while goal.
Andrew, are you saying that the current issues are just an interlude, or the relationship is?
Forgive my lack of reading comprehension.
I agree, with hard work and effort mostly anything can be accomplished.
However, in a relationship and cohabitation situation both sides need to put for the hard work and effort. One side can’t carry it all.
I hope she decides that hard work and effort is collaborative and something she wants to do
Hey Andrew,
I wanted to let you know I'm still here reading along. I miss reading your excitement about upcoming meal plans and eagerness to tackle the first weekend of the month chores. You made huge progress with creating your own life and that seems to have all tumbled down with this big move. I hope you can find yourself again amidst the chaos.
♥ dream
I’m sorry - what functioning adult over 35 leaves dirty dishes and food out in the kitchen before going to bed???
I say this as someone who is NOT a clean freak and a bit prone to leaving piles of things around the house. But seriously, they were all adults there (except grandson) couldn’t each one have washed their own plate and silverware and S washed the pots? Or at a bare minimum put the dishes in to soak overnight and put the food away???
I’d make it clear that you expect all the dishes to be done and at least in the dish drainer and good put away before bed.
dream!!!!! - [squeals like a little girl and runs over with a hug]
Hey Andrew,
I wanted to let you know I'm still here reading along. I miss reading your excitement about upcoming meal plans and eagerness to tackle the first weekend of the month chores. You made huge progress with creating your own life and that seems to have all tumbled down with this big move. I hope you can find yourself again amidst the chaos.
<3 dream
How are you and the boys doing? Staying safe and sane I would hope. If memory serves they are both of school age now?
Yes - some of the things that brought me a lot of Joy are absent. Cooking, cleaning, spending time in the garden, going for really long walks. I also miss beer, a nice bottle of wine, a good single-malt scotch.
I remember having a discussion with Jack_Three_Beans here - it seems like forever ago - on one of my primary drivers and motivations. It's pride. It still is. And I think in one word that sums up why I feel like I'm living under a cloud. I am still proud of "me" and who I am but am living my life under a bushel.
Oddly this has prompted me to pull out my Bible for the second time in this past week. I'm not particularly religious - I figure that God has a lot going on and that I should just take care of me and mine and let Him worry about the universe - if there is such an entity at all.
For a bit of trivia, my parents were non-religious although Mother was raised Catholic. For a short time I attended a tiny little church in a hamlet about 5 miles away. Some friends of my parents attended there and took me hoping perhaps that religion would "stick" as did a number of my cousins. I was very keen and actually did over time read the entire Bible from cover to cover. It's a fabulous Book and is filled with great stories. I was disillusioned during a very memorable Sunday School session where the young lady running it described to me a city paved with gold and asked me if I would want to live there. I said no - in my young mind and certainly in my older one, Paradise is open fields, rolling hills, little streams and bright sunshine. She told me I was stupid and wrong and everyone laughed at me. THAT was the moment that my Faith died. I was probably 6 or 7 at the time.
My Bible is from the Canadian Bible Society. I don't see a print date but it would have been sometime in the mid 1960s. I've kept it safe for a very long time. It still has my attendance cards from Sunday School in it.
Anyhoodles - I always turn everything into a story. I looked up the reference to bushels which I did not know the origin of and came across this:
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candle-stick, that they which come in may see the light.
The light of the body is the eye, therefore when thine eye is single, they whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body is full of darkness.
Take heed therefor that the light which is in thee be not darkness
I think I'm going to spend a bunch of time in the garden today.
Happy weekend all.
this might sound odd.
but - it came to me, and odd as it sounds in my head, I'm gonna share it anyway:
perhaps this is God's way of bringing you closer to Him/Her.
just a random thought as I read your update. I hope the time spent in the garden was refreshing.
Hello Andrew
I figure that God has a lot going on and that I should just take care of me and mine and let Him worry about the universe - if there is such an entity at all.
Rest assured God does exist.
Not to debate an entity or not. His existence - belief makes real. God lives in the actions and kindness of people; caring friends and family, a helpful stranger. He lives within the individual and within the collective millions/billions of people who believe.
For what it’s worth, I also prefer your version of paradise over the streets paved with gold. That young lad of 6 or 7 showed much wisdom.
You, my friend, are a kind man, who has lived a good life. Perhaps, your faith is not as absent as you think. Faith is not all about attending church and praying. Faith is a way of life.
Don’t worry, I’m not here to get you to believe in God. You already do.
D
this might sound odd.
but - it came to me, and odd as it sounds in my head, I'm gonna share it anyway:
perhaps this is God's way of bringing you closer to Him/Her.
just a random thought as I read your update. I hope the time spent in the garden was refreshing.
A very dear friend of mine who happens to be Muslim I think gets annoyed at me saying In sha Allah - probably out of context.
It's weird perhaps. As DnJ suggests, yes in many ways I am perhaps a person of Faith. Just not any particular one. Spiritual perhaps. I certainly do espouse to a philosophy of "energy" permeating everything.
Oddly, S - despite her books and knick-nacks etc doesn't seem to be nearly as spiritual as I would have thought. The full moon and the equinox came and went and she barely noticed. As I was making digital copies of her stacks of CDs she did mention that all of the spiritual ones were ones she took from her parent's house after her mother died.
Odd - she's absolutely an empath and has lots of knick-nacks, books, potions and whatnot - but never seems to use them or have those principles guide her.
I am deeply worried that this relationship is headed off a cliff. Sadly, I don't really feel the necessity to make extreme efforts to save it - does that make me a potential WAS? On the other hand, in this past week S has begun I think pretzelling herself to be the person she thinks I want in my life. She's pushed the boys and worked herself on organizing and cleaning, she put away the left-overs the other night, she worked out in the garden for a bit, she certainly has become more directly affectionate as well. She's made mention numerous times about us getting married and how excited she is about that.
I'd be thrilled except for the fact that as someone who sees patterns, this is a pattern that she's mentioned from past relationships. Where despite the other person being horrible, she gives things one last try and pushes herself to "fix" what was "broken".
I hate that I'm so cynical about this. And perhaps I'm wrong and this is the beginning of her being a more active partner. I also hate that I lack the courage to have the honest talk with her about the fact that there are many things that just aren't working for me. We did have a talk yesterday about one of the things that bothers me - how when I disagree with her she just seems to shut me down and tell me that we're doing things her way. She of course doesn't recall it that way and says that I should just speak up at the time. We'll see how that goes. And yes - she tried to shut me down on that conversation telling me I was wrong and getting upset.
I do continue to have a belief that this can work and work out well for all parties - the tall AND the small. As I told her waaay back last fall when this was getting serious, I could see where we were at "A" and where we could be at "C" but had no clue on what sort of plan would get us through B and to C. Her approach has been to plunge in headlong and put things along by brute force I think. Which for someone like me can be an effective approach. I am very much an over-thinker, over-planner.
Oh - and the gardening. S had said that she would get S13 to "pull the flowers out of the flower bed" which raised some paranoia from me and I asked that they be really really careful to not pull out the 2 perennials that are in there. Some bleeding hearts that have been there since before I bought the house. She seemed to think my worry was misplaced. I don't know how much S13 actually did - he never seemed to move from the couch, but S was out there for a while and the perennials were still there.
I cleaned up the front and rear flower beds in preparation for winter. As I was doing the rear one, I thought I saw a rose that perhaps survived from when my ex took "her" plants from the flower beds. I'd not seen it before. S18 was cutting the grass and so I waved him over to get him to run over the main part of the flower beds, holding up this plant. Which he then ran over first. An honest mistake - he thought I was asking him to make sure that that one was mulched. We laughed. There really was nothing else that could be done.
It is nice to have that year-end prep somewhat done though. S left some plants that were still doing decently so it looks a bit lop-sided and patchy at present but a few weeks from now those will need to come out too. I believe that this is the very first time she's had anything to do with bedding plants. There were some things that she insisted on that didn't work out at all despite my suggesting they were bad ideas so hopefully next year will be better.
----
I went over and had brunch with S26. It was good to see him and "my girls". Amy came out with little coaxing and was very affectionate. Liz stayed in under his bed and wouldn't come out while I was there. Amy was thrilled that I brought their brush and had lots of purrs for me. She's way down in weight still but will hopefully chunk up again now that she's in a much lower stress environment. S26 is liking having them there a lot and is learning first hand what caring for them all on his own is like. I don't think he regrets it except for at 4:30am when they expect breakfast. He suggested that they are positive that "the rest of the house" is just beyond his apartment door and will paw at that wanting to go explore. Liz is pretty happy that she can get to the top of his fridge (her domain here) and can also wander along the top of his cupboards.
I took him a house-warming gift. A popcorn maker and popcorn for watching football with. And because he's a fan of the Bengals, a box of tissues for when they loose. He got the joke immediately and appreciated it.
Over lunch I had an honest conversation with him about my concerns with S and that things may well go off the rails. He seemed a bit dissapointed for me but also completely unsurprised. We also talked about B who he has very fond memories of, especially her kindness when he was learning to drive.
I'm going to skip making Sunday Supper today. Not sure if S will be doing anything special. We do have a functional kitchen again with everything more or less put away. The dining room is completely unusable though - mostly with "kitchen type stuff". I think I counted well over 30 mugs - and S doesn't drink coffee or tea. I have some household repairs to do and might look at doing some autumnal decorating. The trees are currently coming into their most spectactular - all rather suddenly.
This week should be fairly busy. Furnace service on Monday, month-end, and my pulmonary tests on Friday. S will be away at least a couple of days with baby-sitting - she stays overnight - it's complicated and I don't understand. And no - it is definite she's with her daughter and grandson. She's suggested leaving S13 here but I don't have time to help him with his school-work so we'll see how that goes. As usual she brushes off any concerns I may have by saying that S18 will take care of things which is her normal answer - and from S18's perspective that's a whole thread of it's own.
Ta for now.
Andrew, can you go to couple's counseling?? I think it will help. {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}
What I mean and would have changed if we had an edit button is this:
It seems to me that S could benefit from having a neutral party point some of this out. It would also allow you a safe place to say some of these things with someone neutral to point out better communication techniques.
Odd - she's absolutely an empath and has lots of knick-nacks, books, potions and whatnot - but never seems to use them or have those principles guide her.
See, to my eye this is not odd at all - it’s right out of the S playbook and MO. It’s all about talk and show, never about go or actual. She talks about many things, has plans to do all sorts, but when push comes to shove it goes nowhere. This is S through and through from what you’ve told us. So it makes perfect sense she’d buy or otherwise accumulate these things all with plans but the rubber just never meets the road.
I am deeply worried that this relationship is headed off a cliff. Sadly, I don't really feel the necessity to make extreme efforts to save it - does that make me a potential WAS?
No, not at all NOOOOOOOOO! It makes you human and points to you finally seeing this for what it has been all along. Not all Rs should be saved. Heck not all Ms should be saved but for certain not all 12 month Rs. You are not a WAW if you decide otherwise about S. You are not a bad guy or at all to blame if you don’t take on the mother load of trying to save something that perhaps should not be saved. I think deep down you know this and this is why you don’t feel a need to save things. This is a positive, not a negative.
S will be away at least a couple of days with baby-sitting - she stays overnight - it's complicated and I don't understand. And no - it is definite she's with her daughter and grandson.
Im sure she is. I’m also sure she’s using this as an opportunity to be away and stay away - if even n chunks and bits. Seems B did the same thing towards the end. This is S’s way of dealing with this - by not really having to deal with it. She will just leave HER kids behind while she stays away and avoids. Sad.
Yes it’s hard to know all that is going on just from posts but in ways it’s also easier. The differences in how and what you post are striking. You even seem sure this is going off a cliff, which is a total contrast from even 4 months ago. You don’t seem to be looking forward to much. You have lost and miss the girls, your life is drastically different. You’ve given up much of what makes you happy from walks to a glass or two of beer to travel to puttering and tackling tasks to planning Sunday dinners. And in return???? In return you are much better off because...?
I think the best thing you can do is let S play this out. Don’t save her. Let her do what she will do. Let her show YOU how much she wants this to work. Let her show YOU what she is willing to do. That’s what dating is, or at least should be. It’s okay to walk away or let the other person do it. This is not a 23 year M, it’s only 5% of that - less than. You are not a bad guy for saving yourself and your future while you still can - that’s not being a bad guy in the least.
you know, Don is right.
I'm not.
Just trying to be optimistic in a spiraling situation is probably not helpful. OTOH, if you felt the need to try to save it, couple's counseling could do one of three things -
a. help prolong the inevitable
b. speed up the process of ending it
c. perhaps - long shot - help work things out
i just realized i'm telling you to consider couple's counseling with some other guy's wife, wtaf.
just ignore me Andrew, except for the {{{{{{{hug}}}}}}}
Andrew,
Reading your recent postings makes me very sad that your situation really has not improved in the 4 months that she and her clan have been living under your roof. Most people would be putting on the best behavior of all times to convince you that you had made the right choice when it came to a potential spouse in the near future. I honestly do not think couples therapy will help S figure things out. Her brain is wired differently, i.e., because of the ADD. I can't see you and S in couples therapy when she's not even divorced yet. BTW, her mentioning about getting married may have been to see how you would react to her comment or she really looking forward to saying "I do".
I do find it interesting that she can get herself together and go stay w/her daughter and grandson. How is she able to take care of her grandson if her back bothers her? I would think that being there and doing things w/the little one would create some situations whereby she needs to walk and move things when he's up and about. I want you to be honest...do you think the back issue is not as bad as she says and she uses that back issue to get out of doing things?
Also, it appears that she shuts you down quite often when you are attempting to speak to her about things. Communication is about two people talking to one another and that means one listens while the other speaks. She has an issue with relationships and she can't handle hearing things that are so obvious to others, hence the shutting down.
I have to agree w/Don. You need to allow this to play out w/S. I know you love a neat and orderly home, but step back a bit and let's see how long it takes her to unpack the boxes and get things put away. Again, I don't think she'll be much different 6 months from now when it comes to being neat and orderly. What you have seen is what you will get because it's the way that she may have always been. Sure, she may try to participate in activities w/you, but she'll get bored very easily and who go on to seek something else that will grab her attention for a short period of time. Their attention span is that of a gnat. The only things that hold there attention are the TV, what is on computers and the phone. I learned that from someone who is AD/HD.
Andrew, if this relationship does go south, don't be ashamed to admit it to her. Living together was the only way that you and S, both, will discover whether or not you are compatible in all areas of the living arrangement.
Take some time, make a list of what you've brought to the table, pros and cons and then make a list of what she's brought to the table, pros and cons. Look at all you have had to give up or arrange when she's not around, i.e., your son moved out and now the "girls" are gone. You have to enjoy your alcohol when she's not around and you come home to a house that is still unpacked or get up in the morning to a sink full of dirty dishes. Let's not forget you are the taxi for the two boys as well. Andrew, from where I'm sitting, you don't sound as happy as you should be 4 months into living together. I hope things turn around for you, but you may have to accept that what you see and what you will have to live with if you do decide to say "I do" down the road. Do not rush into a marriage once her divorce is final. Do not feel obligated to go through w/it unless you are absolutely happy with the entire relationship.
dream!!!!! - [squeals like a little girl and runs over with a hug]
How are you and the boys doing? Staying safe and sane I would hope. If memory serves they are both of school age now?
Yes - some of the things that brought me a lot of Joy are absent. Cooking, cleaning, spending time in the garden, going for really long walks. I also miss beer, a nice bottle of wine, a good single-malt scotch.
I remember having a discussion with Jack_Three_Beans here - it seems like forever ago - on one of my primary drivers and motivations. It's pride. It still is. And I think in one word that sums up why I feel like I'm living under a cloud. I am still proud of "me" and who I am but am living my life under a bushel.
((((HUGS))))
We're all doing okay here. Staying safe and at home most of the time. My older boys are 12 and 14. They are doing well with remote school (7th and 9th). I mostly stay out of it, but watch from behind the scenes if work is being turned in on time. I haven't done any "teaching" or helping with homework. My younger boys are now 2 and 4. They started a new day care this month and that's been going great.
My oldest is playing football. Only 2 tickets are given per player to attend the games. It's been a little weird spending so much time with XH, but we get along well enough.
Have you given any thought to how you can bring joy back into your life on a daily basis? Do you still get your roses? and scones? I'm glad you've reconnected with your son. And shared with him your concerns about S. That couldn't have been easy to do.
Perhaps you could get together for dinner with a friend sometime this week while S is away? I'm sorry things aren't going as you expected with S. One important thing I learned from my 1st marriage is that it takes 2 people to make a relationship work. I tried to do it all and obviously that didn't work. I couldn't force him to change and certainly no one is going to change S either. Only she can put in effort to contribute to your relationship and work to make things better. You said she tidied up a bit and pushed the boys to do some work around the house... real sincere changes will stay true over time. so we'll have to stay tuned! Time will tell.
she stays overnight - it's complicated and I don't understand
I suspect her daughter knows she can't count on mom to show up on time for the second day and so wants her to spend the night to ensure that she'll be there on time in the morning.
(((Andrew)))
Again, I feel the need to start this whole post with a big hug because your most recent posts can't have been easy to put out there and I'm sure that you are struggling mightily internally. A hug may help you feel better, if nothing else.
Having said that, I agree with Don. S seems to be really good at talking a good game, but she has little to no actual follow-through. When I went through my D, one conversation that I had with my XH repeatedly was that actions speak louder than words. He was cheating and then got mad AT ME when people started finding out. It wasn't me telling people, it was how HE was acting and behaving toward others. Actions tell the real story.
Here's my thing about S (I started to say question, but it is more an observation based on personal opinion than an actual question)...you say she's an empath. Sparky and I have been discussing this a lot lately because I think a lot of people throw that word around and very few actually know what it means. I was relating to him that I know someone who claims to be an empath (a friend of mine that he's met in passing once) and she is totally the opposite of one (he agrees that she does not seem to possess the actual qualities of an empath). I know another person who has said before that she is one and I can kind of see it with her. I don't know if S is or not because I don't know her personally and have spent no time with her, but I suspect that her "empath" qualities are much more put-on than she would lead others to believe. I just don't think she truly is one or she would be more wary of how you are feeling in all of this and she would do something about it.
You've made excuses for her medical issues and her ADD, but at what point does anyone hold her responsible for just being set in her ways and maybe even a bit lazy? (No judgment on my part, because I'll openly admit to the world right here that I can be lazy as the day is long on occasion and will every once in a great while work harder to avoid work than I would have to work to actually do the work I'm working so hard to avoid.) She lives in this world of chaos and then can't quite seem to get out of it because she's tired, her back hurts, she's overwhelmed because she has ADD, etc, etc, etc. She lived in chaos when you started dating and she lives in chaos now that y'all live together, but chaos is not the state you want to live in. If she was truly an empath, at some point, wouldn't she figure that out and at least make some actual gestures toward working on it?
I also agree with kml in that I suspect her daughter has her spend the night to baby sit so that she is actually there when daughter needs her there. The way you have described the family dynamic, the daughter seems far more responsible than S. I think it is just part and parcel of who she is and if she isn't putting her best foot forward NOW on the front end of this deal, what is it going to be like down the road when she has settled in for the long haul, so to speak.
I want to ask a question that has been plaguing me for awhile and I just haven't take the time to dig back through your threads to confirm what I think I remember. Isn't S the one that your son warned you against dating when you very first brought it up. If she is, I don't recall your ever mentioning what his actual issue was that prompted his warning, but maybe now it is making more sense. I don't know...I may be mis-remembering this whole thing and that warning may have been about someone else.
I may be wrong here, but it seems to me that maybe you are seeing the writing on the wall, so to speak. Please, whatever you do moving forward, remember to take care of Andrew first. You are a good man with many positive qualities to offer to a kind, caring, loving woman. Please, please, please do NOT settle. Think about what you want and what you need and act accordingly.
What a heck of a day yesterday. Call from the plant. The acid is purple. WTF??? We still have no idea how that happened. It was in the heel left in the container when it was shipped to us for re-filling. Actually the guys at the plant were having a worse day than I was - I just got the earful about it and had to do what I could to fix things. Hoping today is better all around. So far, so good - knock on wood.
S came across a puir wee dead mouse in the cellar. It looked like the one who had been on the main floor that the cats found but I can't tell them apart for sure. The poison worked I suppose. She thought it was still barely breathing but when I went down a few minutes later it was stiff. I carefully packed it into the trash so that it won't be in the food chain. It's very sad but S does fortunately agree necessary to prevent vermin in the house. She has used a more humane but still fatal trap in the past that I'm open to. I know the patterns they take through the house historically so we can be sure of catching them if we go that route.
Also - when I was outside getting prepared for our evening out, I came across a big squished frog in the driveway. I have no idea how he got there or squished as the car hadn't moved in a day or so and he was fresh. Perhaps dropped by a bird?
As far as signs and portents go, these are pretty bad ones I am sure.
I was tempted to respond earlier but have found that I've been getting very reactive to posts and also that the issues and the re-enforcement of my own perspective of the negatives have been souring me. I've made some notes over the last few days though which I'll talk about. After job's post - which I really appreciated like everyone's including - brace yourself - Don's - I just wanted to go to S and say "this isn't working - we're trying to put a square peg into a round hold". I slept on it and didn't feel as motivated to take action.
Difficult as it is for me, I do think as has been suggested, is to just let things play out. For good or for ill. I do have reduced - not expectations, but rather hope - that this will turn around. It makes me feel very sad and rather hypocritical about not trying to "fix" things or be pro-active in calling for an end. I honestly in many ways don't want an end. I would like this to work but as I've said, I'm not going to force it.
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Addressing some questions. Lots and lots of questions.
I want to ask a question that has been plaguing me for awhile and I just haven't take the time to dig back through your threads to confirm what I think I remember. Isn't S the one that your son warned you against dating when you very first brought it up. If she is, I don't recall your ever mentioning what his actual issue was that prompted his warning, but maybe now it is making more sense.
Good memory Dawn. Yes, S is the person that my son told me to not date quite some time ago. He didn't enunciate any particular reason beyond her being gluten-free which seemed weird. I do know that he had spent time in her home and if he had told me that she was a slob and that there was a house-full of chaos I would have indeed not dated her. But that's not the case. When I did tell him that I had been asked out last year, he appeared unconcerned. But then again, he perhaps never expected things to get serious.
she stays overnight - it's complicated and I don't understand
I suspect her daughter knows she can't count on mom to show up on time for the second day and so wants her to spend the night to ensure that she'll be there on time in the morning.
Difficult to say. Her daughter works at a pub and so works late. They are an hour away so the back and forth is a bit of work. There seems to be a reluctance to leave the toddler with his Dad.
Have you given any thought to how you can bring joy back into your life on a daily basis? Do you still get your roses? and scones? I'm glad you've reconnected with your son. And shared with him your concerns about S. That couldn't have been easy to do.
Working on that. I still get my roses and have adjusted my schedule so that it is guaranteed to happen. Because of the partial shutdowns I can get my scone but not the soup on Sunday as there is no eat-in. S got her nose out of joint one time when I popped over on my own so now I let her know in advance that I am going so she can decide to come along. She used to work there doing dishes one day a week - all she says her back could take - and likes to visit and gossip and expects to be bought a sweet treat. Last week I think she was annoyed when I handed her her own pocket money as we went in then ordered and paid for my scone before she could add in what she wanted :P
I am trying to do my own thing anyway more. And you are right, it wasn't an easy conversation with my son and one that he perhaps appreciated being aware of, but probably made him both sad and uncomfortable.
I do find it interesting that she can get herself together and go stay w/her daughter and grandson. How is she able to take care of her grandson if her back bothers her? I would think that being there and doing things w/the little one would create some situations whereby she needs to walk and move things when he's up and about. I want you to be honest...do you think the back issue is not as bad as she says and she uses that back issue to get out of doing things?
I am confident that her back does go out and can go out badly. I've witnessed it. With proper precautions and taking things easy she manages it but does live in fear of that one spasm that puts her out of action. It is indeed very physical taking care of a toddler, especially one as busy as this one is. She tries to have one of the other kids with her (she has S13 right now and D19 has helped).
I think that it is in many ways an excuse. She knows the exercises and ways to keep it safe. For anything - ahem - more athletic - she doses up on a particular fragrent herb before hand. Annoying to me but my nose has now been attached to my hormones as it were
She says it's necessary to relax her back muscles.
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And now the "news".
I do think that she has burned out her enthusiasm fairly quickly to "make things right". She was actively questioning me to find out what parts of the house bothered me the most which is the thing that she wants to "fix". She made good progress for a while but by yesterday was only able to poke here and there going through random containers finding random stuff. The physical affection has gone back to the usual playful or "normal" level from the over-the top way it was for a couple of days too.
I did make mention to her that the house feels "dark" to me which goes along with my "living under a cloud" description of my former marriage. But I think she puts it down to the physical environment rather than me not finding fulfillment in the day to day life and was really pushing on that plus being more affectionate in multiple ways. In talking about how we can decorate the house for autumn I did mention how much pride I had in how nice I was able to have the house look and hoped we would work to make it look nice this year together. But it didn't have much sticking power I think.
It was our "anniversary" yesterday. 1 year from our first date. Manufactured perhaps. It was my doing to celebrate it as S didn't recall when it was. I mentioned it a few weeks ago as coming up so she was aware. Unfortunately the cafe where we had our first brunch date is closed on Tuesdays so we went out to dinner somewhere else. I'd thought of doing something a bit more extravagant but just got a card and the dinner. I wrote in the card that it's been a bumpy ride but that love has helped smooth it. She also got me just a card and wrote in it the appropriate expressions of love.
It was a decent dinner out but there is certainly a continuation of the ongoing tension. I made comments about how great the progress has been to date. Her key focus I think is on getting me into the garage before snow-falls. Which I always felt was aspirational rather than achievable. She's stressing about it and I don't think it's doable as there are some large things in there like her reclining exercise bike which had lived under a pile of other stuff in her apartment that she says she wants to keep and use - got offended that I would ask in fact. I gave the one I had away when she moved in. I did ask about some of the things that are already taking up space such as the several totes of kids toys which includes a massive plastic doll-house. She said that the kids still play with it and all the other toys. Which is unlikely as it's been in the cellar for months and previously was in her hallway being continuously tripped over. I had thought it had special meaning but no - it's just a "valuable" doll house with a lot of bits. She did immediately go on the attack when I suggested that some things could be purged commenting that I too was attached to things like my lilac bushes and also complaining that I was consuming lots of storage with the sheds with the trailers inside, the garage for my car etc. Sigh. A wise man knows when to stand down. Her daughter is the only hope for getting her to let go of things but even then I know that it's a struggle.
Part of it I am positive is with how she perceives time. I think part of her is stuck in what was a happy time even though it was also pretty bad in some ways. She and the kids - with S13 just having been born, living in a big house in the country with a pond and lots of stars. It only lasted for I think a year or so before physical, financial and marital disaster over-took her and she lost it. I do know that a lot of the stuff she's been dragging around came from there or caught her eye as fitting into that place. She recently regularly comments on how she has brought in the stuff from a big house with 7 people in it. A perspective that she's unable to shake I think.
We did go over our October budget the other day and it's not looking pretty. S still isn't clear on how the money gets managed as I operate with zero revolving debt so there's nothing being "paid down". Payments are made on fixed debt on a pre-planned schedule. I know what bills are coming in each month and what expenses are usual like taxes and water bills and plan for those. I set money aside for annual bills so that when the come due they are covered. Seems straightforward to me but my brain does work differently than her's and I have had different financial life experiences. I have no visibility at all into her own finances and do not intend to push that issue. She has commented about contributing but she has "bills to pay" of her own. And some bills do indeed still exist. Given though that she was making about $400 / month in car payments, $1,400 / month in rent, plus utilities, insurance not to mention food and discretionary and paying back the money she owed her ex, the $1,500-$2,000 she has come up with each month is a smaller number than expected. She does pull in she told me earlier nearly $3,000 / month in various support payments. So the numbers don't add up and poking more into that is probably a bad idea unless I want to start a war.
On a more positive note, after we talked about the budget and I went off and added all the numbers up, I told her we were short and she buys in to the fact that we need to limit spending beyond what we had talked about and that she does need to contribute. I think she feels she is contributing "her share" with what she is putting in already.
In further news, Thanksgiving is coming up. I'll be having brunch with my S26 on the Saturday which I had talked to S about in the context that he won't be joining us with her Dad and that perhaps his mother will feed him. Then I got the hairy eyeball and she was upset when I mentioned that I wouldn't be going to see her Dad on the Saturday. But on the other hand she has no firm plans on anything and when I asked she was uncertain on when Thanksgiving will be celebrated, whether it would be the Sunday or Monday - depending on when her own kids were available. Sigh. I believe we are supposed to be going through a bunch of her Dad's heirloom stuff which he both wants to sort out and hand down, but is reluctant to because he is (in my mind rightly) worried that they won't be taken care of well by S.
I do think that S18 knows that things are uncertain and troubled. He's a smart kid and we do talk a fair bit as I drive him back and forth to work. He also hears and notices my grumbling as I spend time picking up after everyone.
None of this is easy.
In other funny news, I have been getting random compliments from women on my t-shirts lately for some reason. They are nice shirts that I have owned for some time but for some reason I am now being complimented on them. And no - I bear no resemblance to Dwayne Johnson. I have much more hair.
Missing my girls still. Even Amy who would stick her entire head in my tea mug when I'm not paying attention. The two cats left are pretty stand-offish to me. I'm glad the girls are with S26 now though. It's best all around. One of the cats here got out yesterday but fortunately didn't make it far before he was caught. I expect it's just a matter of time before they are roaming the neighbourhood which I've been clear on not wanting to happen.
So the plan is to do my best - keep things on an even keel. Be a honest as I can be without being too negative or alarmist. And watch how this plays out.
As I've told S - and gotten the hairy eyeball for - if this was easy then everyone would be doing it.
Time for lunch.
I think she feels she is contributing "her share" with what she is putting in already.
Exactly how much is she putting in? And do you know how much credit card debt she has? (My guess, if she had all those fixed expenses on her income that she may have survived by running up large credit card debts. You ought to find out.)
As for the organizing/cleaning/hoarding stuff - she's not capable of getting the job done I don't think. Aside from relying on her D26 to come help, what else do you think you can bring to bear? She's obviously not keeping the dollhouse for her boys, so can D26 take it to her home? Or can it stay in the basement? Or would a cheap storage shed be a solution to put all her junk into and at least get it out of the house? I think she's going to have to learn to work with you to get some of this sorted because D26 doesn't have the time to come over every weekend. And at this rate it sounds like you're months away from her finishing, if ever. (And good lord, don't let her bring in more heirlooms from her father's place!)
I think you may have hit on an answer as to why she is attached to some of this stuff, but hoarding isn't really rational. It's frankly ridiculous that it would take this long to put things away - even given that combining households is a tough job and she is attached to stuff - so at this point I would be putting it in a shed and forgetting about it. Just get it out of your way. Once the house is uncluttered you'll feel better, and you'll also be able to have a better idea of whether she's able to maintain going forward.
If you've ever watched Hoarders on tv you know they are very difficult to treat.
And as for your budget - I hope you are putting a little "exit money" aside, so that if it gets to the point where you have to boot her out, you can pay the first month's rent on an apartment to get rid of her?
As for housecleaning - how about an agreement that "Saturday morning" is housecleaning day and EVERYBODY has to get involved and do their chores? Seems like relying on individuals/ chore chart alone isn't working so maybe it needs to be a group activity?
I'm sorry, Andrew.
Hello Andrew
I was tempted to respond earlier but have found that I've been getting very reactive to posts and also that the issues and the re-enforcement of my own perspective of the negatives have been souring me.
I am sorry you feel under a cloud as of late. The reinforcing of negatives isn’t helping that cloud cover.
I've made some notes over the last few days though which I'll talk about. After job's post - which I really appreciated like everyone's including - brace yourself - Don's - I just wanted to go to S and say "this isn't working - we're trying to put a square peg into a round hold". I slept on it and didn't feel as motivated to take action.
Good for sleeping on it. Feeling do flit away when not reinforced. As you say, the next day, you didn’t feel as motivated.
Difficult as it is for me, I do think as has been suggested, is to just let things play out. For good or for ill. I do have reduced - not expectations, but rather hope - that this will turn around. It makes me feel very sad and rather hypocritical about not trying to "fix" things or be pro-active in calling for an end. I honestly in many ways don't want an end. I would like this to work but as I've said, I'm not going to force it.
One of the many questions has been “What do you want?”.
I honestly in many ways don't want an end. I would like this to work
Good.
You would like this to work out. I’ll support you.
You are correct you cannot force it. However, you need to live and love like this is going to work out. That is going to give you the best chance. Along the lines of self fulfilling destiny. If you live like things won’t work out, they usually won’t; and if you live like thing will work out, they usually will. MWD mentions something along those lines in her books.
Andrew, you lead in life more than you probably realize. Find your passion and fun with S again. The messy house and stuff still in boxes is just stuff. It’s a problem that is solvable. So solve it. Stop dwelling on it. Lead her and her kids, gently.
Things we focus upon get larger. The more you dwell on something troublesome the bigger and more insurmountable it becomes. It’s just stuff. Yes, lots of stuff; and I am sure you can see a solution or two on what to do with it.
Just letting thing play out, is going to fail. You are going to get more and more resentful. It is already taking its toll upon your hope; reducing it.
Andrew, your feelings are pushing and pulling you around. What do you believe? Deep down.
I get it. Work has been difficult. Son moved out. The cats are gone. The house isn’t where you want it to be, or expect it to be. Lots to accept, which takes time.
Be you. That guy who made yummy dinners, even used turnip - on purpose, yuck!
Somehow made gray not from a package - I’m sure black magic is involved. Has duck at Christmas. Is kind, caring, responsible. Dresses up as a pirate at Halloween. And so on.
Be you. If S doesn’t follow such a fine example, or won’t step up, or decides to leave - it is truly her loss. You are a good man. Don’t forget that! (don’t let that go to your head either. Lol)
Have faith. And step into the light.
And dress up for Halloween. Arrrrrr.
D
Wow, DnJ…..that is the single greatest response I have ever seen on any of these posts. Seriously. It was perfect. I absolutely couldn't agree more with the entire thing and I couldn't have said it better. Read that VERY carefully, Andrew, and take it to heart, my friend.
Wow, DnJ…..that is the single greatest response I have ever seen on any of these posts. Seriously. It was perfect. I absolutely couldn't agree more with the entire thing and I couldn't have said it better. Read that VERY carefully, Andrew, and take it to heart, my friend.
I agree Dawn. That is one amazing post DnJ.
Sometimes the people here amaze me......
Nice post by Dnj. I would add one caveat though.
Dating is for discovering whether we are a good match with someone. The same level of commitment to working something out that is appropriate for marriage, is NOT necessarily appropriate for dating. DBing has limited usefulness in a dating situation. It's great for working some kinks out of a relationship, but that should not be mistaken for total commitment to working things out no matter what, which is only really appropriate for marriage vows. (And not always then, in cases of addiction or abuse).
Andrew has to be careful not to succumb to the sunk cost fallacy here. He's invested an awful lot, what with having her and her kids move in already and having made a foolishly premature marriage proposal. And sure, it's appropriate to take a little time to see if this can work out. But if the reality turns out to be that she is incapable of living in anything other than chaos, will never work again and is unwilling even to do basic housekeeping such as putting food away after dinner and at least rinsing the dishes, or that she is in serious trouble with addiction to pain meds for her back problem for which she is unwilling to even take walks or do exercises to try to improve - well then. In that situation there's really unlikely to be a good outcome.
I understand his desire to see if it will work - and that's reasonable, he desired to help her improve her lot in life and it might be premature to say she's incapable of taking advantage of this opportunity. But so far the signs are not looking good. Some people don't want to be saved and are comfortable living in their chaos. Or if it turns out that addiction is the problem, addicts will use people to maintain their addiction. I think watchful waiting - observing the real person instead of the facade or image that she projected when they were first dating, and waiting to see if she can indeed step up to the plate - is reasonable. I agree with Dnj though that if you bring anger and irritability into the situation it won't help things.
Andrew, all I have to offer is this: {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}
Happy Saturday all. A cool drizzly day here in Lower Upper Kanukistan. I'm planning on getting the storm windows up early this afternoon between the showers. S's S18 has been asked to research air purifiers as we will no longer be getting outside ventilation in his room for the rabbits. I'll need to stay on top of him about filter cleaning / changing.
I had a sort of nice call with D28 on Thursday. The call quality was crappy because of the poor cell reception as I drove home. She's under a lot of stress lately with a combination of world events and the fact that her H is leaving the Navy shortly. The recruiters are beating regularly on his door. With his qualifications he could work in a wide variety of places including any sort of steam plant which describes about 90% of the energy and chemical industry. She's confident that they will be moving out of San Diego and will certainly need to move somewhere because they are currently in base housing. The absolute latest date is the end of January to move but she expects it to be early November.
I talked to her about my own concerns with life and "stuff" and she was sympathetic and I think relieved that she doesn't have to figure out how to get up here for a fall wedding. She'd really like to be back on this side of the border though at present.
S came home late on Thursday after spending a couple of days with her daughter and GS. She was exhausted - bright red eyes - I gave her a big hug. We curled up to catch up. She shut me down abruptly when I was talking about my son-in-law's prospects. It seems that I've mentioned that before and am only able to talk about something once. She hates it when I repeat myself which as a story-teller I tend to do. I asked about her time and how her kids were doing which was a safer topic.
Friday she slept in until early afternoon which undoubtedly did her good then had to rush S13 over to his Dad's place and the out for a hair appointment. She also did the grocery shopping. I didn't know we needed so much convenience food or canned food and sauces and snack food. There was already lots in the pantry. Especially snack food. Just her style of shopping. I questioned it when she got home and she said that since it was the start of the month with a new grocery budget that it was time to stock up. Not the way that I personally view the grocery budget - but whatever. Very few base ingredients were bought. A small bit of fresh fruit, no vegetables or protein. A different way of shopping / cooking.
When I was talking to D26 she was horrified when I told her how much trash is produced out of here. Easily 100% more than there was with the former family of 4 that was here. Probably 300% more recycling because of all the packages and cans. I used to be so smugly proud of being able to put out one small bag and one partly full bin of recycling when it was my son and I here.
On Friday when S was out I did something I probably shouldn't have / should have and had a peek at her personal budget book. Superficially it's a confusing set of numbers written here and there but there is a system that works for S and she's explained it to me. I browsed back to when before her attempted reconciliation, during, the time up to when we started dating and up to the present. I'm a big believer that "following the money" is a good way to understand a situation.
Her reconciliation attempt was indeed half-hearted. Her expenses didn't change measurably as she kept the apartment and S18 - who would have been 16 was left there for several months on his own as he's mentioned in passing. There was an analysis sheet comparing the costs of one place vs two. After we had been dating for a while there was also a sheet looking at the costs of moving up to Ottawa to be closer to her daughter.
This plus numerous other pieces of evidence indicates to me that she strung her former partner along for years, never really letting go even though she was unhappy with him and the fact that they both were dating others. Strong echoes of how my ex-wife treated me.
There were also numerous notes about small amounts that she owed to a lot of family members including her own children and friends. And not even close friends. I've seen it happen - she commits to buy something, has no cash and her friend covers her for a short while.
The current sheets clearly show - if you know how to read them - what I'd been presuming. Significant amounts of money are being held back - probably about 50% of her net income after you discount out the expenses she pays herself such as car insurance etc. She probably has about $3k in cash at this point according to my math. This is sitting in three different bank accounts. This also makes sense based on her asking if she can make extra payments on the consolidation loan she took out when she moved in with me. I do know she is spending some out of there but not much. There have been things show up but no transaction showing in the chequing account.
To be honest, I really don't care but wish she was more open about it. My own finances are completely transparent to her. One of her complaints about past partners in fact was that they weren't transparent.
I have been trying to project rather than hide the fact that I'm not happy with the current state of my affairs. And yes - I take ownership of that. I'm the only one who is responsible. S is I am sure aware but may well be at a loss as to what she can do about it. And that's where again, it's about me. Even though I'm living under a cloud, I need to find my own sunshine where I can. It is difficult as I can feel myself being diminished and minimized and compressed. Even the physical space I have continues to reduce. I had to shoo S13 out of the office because there's now a couch in here for S to escape the boys to and he decided to camp out there the other day during my office hours. I don't feel able to create in the kitchen because it has to feed picky people with a variety of likes and dislikes. I can't just make whatever I want. Decorating the house for autumn should be done jointly - and so probably won't happen this year as I can't stir S to get out. She did buy two small pumpkins for the step which may be all that happens. Not my sort of thing - pumpkins are for eating but at least it's something. The living room is a no-go zone as the boys and random half-unpacked boxes are everywhere. My favourite chair usually has someone else's butt in it and the side table my daughter gave me is piled high. The dining room is impassible so hosting formal dinners in there isn't going to be happening for a while.
I really have no clue on how this will all pan out. It could continue along like this for years but I don't think it will. On the other hand I have a history of being wrong. My barber had strong words for me this morning saying that if S does leave - to absolutely under no circumstances have anyone move in again so quickly. With B - it was because of the fact that her apartment was un-inhabitable. With S it was because she aggressively pushed the agenda to where I asked. And I'm a push-over. I know this about me. Whether S not filing for divorce is a cynical hanging on to that thread with her former partner, a security blanket, or just plain laziness could be argued.
Enough whining for now. More later I'm sure
Fairly busy weekend. First weekend of the month. I hope to get some cleaning done although it's tough with the clutter. FSL at the flower shop asked if the boys were helping and easily interpreted the eye-roll over my mask.
Getting the storm windows up is the top priority though. S has asked that we set aside some time on Sunday afternoon for some "us" time. I have a few things to get caught up on for work - plans had to be adapted on the fly for a lot of the week and I have some things to set in train for a couple of big orders coming in. I'm taking a week and a half off starting next week. I intend to get the plaster work done in S13's room and some the repairs in the front porch done. I may also start tearing apart the kitchen. S has said that she wants to paint the cupboards and the inside of the front porch. I figure that if I do my part and have the rooms looking decent then they can be painted at leisure.
It can only continue on like this for years if you let it.
You have a voice. You have a choice. You don’t have to wait for her to make a decision for you and live in misery.
DNJ says to go in doing the things you love, but it seems like it is not physically possible in the environment you live in. And she doesn’t want to actually do anything so you’ll be doing that stuff alone, which is fine because you always enjoyed it. But cleaning up after 3 messy chaotic people I’m sure makes it a physically challenging environment and on top of that leaves you with little time trying to keep up with the added people and mess who don’t keep up in their own.
You have a choice if this goes on for years. You can’t change the way she lives, and she isn’t changing. But you can change how you chose to live.
Your spark is gone. It would be great if you could find it under the current circumstances, but it seems like a very large task with all barriers. My heart truly goes out to you
Andrew, i really wish things were different and you had the outcome you seak.
I am not a big fan of S. Imo, you got yourself a victim not a partner.
The victim who uses pity to get away with being responsable.
She even depends on our own kids to get the job done. Can she do anything on her own?
A quote who is straight to the point for YOU. " What you allow is what will continue. "
Put your foot down. This is your life, your house, your office.
You sharing those things with them is a blessing. They should have a huge amount of respect for you and they definately should do their part in making sure you do not pull away from them.
You are a wonderful, kind, generous and above all smart man. Don' t let them threat you and your generosity like it is deserved. You owe them nothing and you give them wayyyy tooooo muchhhhh!!!
Andrew,
If you want to decorate for fall, then by all means do so. I know that you enjoy bringing your boat out for Halloween and decorating and having candy available for the kids. I think Halloween is being canceled in my area this year because of the virus.
Andrew, take some time and really think about what you want and what use to make you happy. If it means that you have to step back from some of your projects to find that happy place for a day or so, then by all means do it. I know that you have a few projects to do, but tackle them one at a time and please, for goodness sake, don't take on any more until the projects that you have identified requiring your attention.
You are the only one who can determine what you and will not put up with. Don't be afraid to speak up. If you come here to vent (a safe place), then you should be able to speak up in your own home. As for saying something more than once...shame on her for shutting down when you mention the subject a second time.
It's your life and only you can determine when you've had enough. Let me ask you this question...is having S available and having sex frequently more important to you then your peace of mind and a good environment to live in?
She probably has about $3k in cash at this point according to my math.
I suppose this would be an appropriate safety cushion to have in case you boot her out? Or could be savings to pay for her divorce?
As for the junk food diet - not only is it unhealthy but it wreaks havoc with a food budget. Now, it certainly can be important to have some gluten free snacks around, especially for underweight growing boys. And picky eaters can be tough - I get it. You might have to restrain your cooking to sure deals like hamburgers or spaghetti with meat sauce for a while. You also might need to resort to Costco or whatever the Canadian equivalent is for some items - it would likely save you money on those kinds of groceries. The grocery budget is usually one of the biggest places for potential savings in a budget. But you’re only likely to get that kind of control and savings if the two of you sit down and plan meals and grocery shopping.
Teaching the boys to cook might be a good idea - the 18 year old needs to know, and if your relationship goes break up, I could foresee a future where the 13 year old needs to take it on.
Do your storm windows but I would forgo your kitchen plans for now - she’s not going to get it painted any more than she’s going to finish all this unpacking, and it will just be another source of strain. I’d suggest you spend this week instead getting all the clutter out of the house. Maybe she can’t part with stuff - if so, put it in boxes in the basement for now. Just reclaim your living room and dining room. Living like this is crazy. Get the house cleaned up and then make a rule that only one box comes out of the basement at a time.
Btw - get a HEPA rated filter for that bedroom. I know I bought one and someone mentioned in the comments that they saved money on filters by buying a large filter and cutting several out of one. You might look for one with that as an option, could save a lot of money in the long run.
I know you’re trying to avoid being the mean ogre, but if you stay on this path you’ll end up reaching the end of your rope and booting them out. Better to get rid of the crap and clutter next week, make a meal plan and grocery shopping list, and regain some sanity in your home. Your relationship will be better for it.
Oh and heck yes, your daughter and her husband should try to move back to Canada. Just one of them getting Covid could cost them thousands of dollars even if they’re insured in the U.S.
Your spark is gone. It would be great if you could find it under the current circumstances, but it seems like a very large task with all barriers. My heart truly goes out to you
It's worse I think because I had found that spark - so to lose it is more difficult than to have not had it.
A quote who is straight to the point for YOU. " What you allow is what will continue. "
((exquisitetobe)) - You are very entitled to a loud "I Told You So"
It's your life and only you can determine when you've had enough. Let me ask you this question...is having S available and having sex frequently more important to you then your peace of mind and a good environment to live in?
LOL - it's about once every 2 weeks. Usually at about 3:00 am when I am sound asleep. I have a lot of sympathy for women who have partners show up with demands now. It may be less frequent then when I was married but is at least enthusiastic.
She probably has about $3k in cash at this point according to my math.
I suppose this would be an appropriate safety cushion to have in case you boot her out? Or could be savings to pay for her divorce?
She only needs about $300 for the divorce. Any equalization settlement was taken care of when she got that consolidation loan a few months ago. It's either a nest egg or it's a "this is my money" situation. No clue.
Teaching the boys to cook might be a good idea - the 18 year old needs to know, and if your relationship goes break up, I could foresee a future where the 13 year old needs to take it on.
I've been told bluntly that S18 has been taught to cook and doesn't need me to do that. I've been told that he just lacks confidence. On the other hand, he seems to want me to teach him. S13 believes he already knows everything, refuses to eat pretty much anything other than packaged gluten free mac and cheese anyway. Funny - one of S13's favourite meals is a pan-seared chicken that I cook. His mother has never tried it or anything similar and complains about how hard it is to get protein into him. She does know that he will eat plain pasta so will cook that.
Do your storm windows but I would forgo your kitchen plans for now - she’s not going to get it painted any more than she’s going to finish all this unpacking, and it will just be another source of strain.
Storm windows are up. I had a decent break in the weather. S wanted S18 to help but knowing that he's generally in bed through the time of the day that I'd be doing it, I said that I would be fine. S18 and I had talked about it and I did say that I could use a hand but that if he wasn't around that it was no big.
I believe that she went and woke him up. I did the more difficult parts myself. I've been doing this for 30+ years and like to think that I know what I'm doing. When I saw that he was "coincidentally" up, I mentioned that there is one particularly difficult downstairs window that I could use a pair of hands with. When I saw him sitting inside waiting, I got him when I was doing the last upstairs window and explained to him what I was doing and tips like running the hoisting rope around something so only a tiny hold was necessary and to never never never wrap a rope around your hand. He seemed quite engaged and interested.
I did have him lower the big ladder which he was nervous about and pretty happy to do well "on his own" (I held one side). My approach is to just assume that he is capable of doing something and to guide him through it as necessary. I think his mother starts from the point of view that he's got challenges and "can't" do things without a lot of effort. She wanted him to have 3 therapy sessions before he could go to buy garbage tags. I told him where the money was, how the shop was set up that he had to go to, he rode his bike up, grabbed the tags and came home. No big. Just like with cutting the grass - walk him through it the first time and then leave him to it. He is I think pretty proud of being able to do that with no supervision and also that I tell him that he's done a good job and a "lot" faster than I would do it.
--
I'm off on vacation next week. My plan is to get the plaster work done on S13's room. Why nobody else could do that is beyond me. Install the cabinet we got in the laundry room, and work on some of the basic cleaning that hasn't been done or has only been "teenager" done. S was annoyed at me for scrubbing the bathrooms yesterday "it was on the boy's chore chart" - but it wasn't getting done and is something I enjoy doing. She does pester me regularly to just let things slide, that I work too hard and that dishes and cleaning aren't all that important. They are very important to me.
There are some repairs to the front porch that are needed for S's "office / shop" which I think isn't going to be anything for a while. But the badly damaged paneling needs replacing anyway.
I may get a start on the kitchen. It's one of the projects that had been on my own list. I have no expectation that S will get anything painted. But I can get the false ceiling down and do some plaster repairs and get the walls primed perhaps. Things that were intended to be done early this year by my son and I but because of the amount of time that S consumed, never got done. She did push for us to get together every possible moment - last fall my leaves never got raked because I never had a free weekend.
S is still I think working for ways to "fix" things. When I was taking a rest yesterday after carrying the last air conditioner to the cellar, she sat with me. I did mention that I do feel very "compressed" which then got me some rather persistent questioning demanding specifics. Since I knew that whatever I would have to say would sound like a pity party / whine fest and because it's hard to put feelings into actionable words, I went with "not able to say in words exactly what that means". Which is true. She has been told that I find the clutter stifling and I have mentioned that I hope to be able to have pride in how the place looks again. I also take myself and the dog on at least short walks fairly regularly. It's prime walking season right now - I hope to get some of that in.
Well - quieter day today. I might get some sweeping done. There is a scheduled - ahem - recreation period when S18 goes to work. I'm not planning on making a Sunday dinner tonight. Not sure if S has anything planned. She had said yesterday that she was going to re-heat a frozen shepherd's pie but when I said that I wasn't too hungry she and S18 went out and got McDonalds for themselves. I didn't bother eating as I couldn't find the energy to cook.
I'm glad she's not asked me if I'm happier now than I was when I was single. As ginger says - I've lost my spark.
It's not as gloomy here though as you might think reading this though. I still haven't lost myself. He's just in a box right now.
((( Andrew )))
I can' t say " i told you so ".
Like you, i gave her the benifit of the doubt. I hoped she would come around and put your needs and wants as important as hers. Sadly, It is not so. In order to find out, we needed to experience her day to day routine .
We are discovering who she is through you on here.
You do not want things to end... ok then changes must be made.
Just like sll of them, you have the right to demand a bare table so that you can enjoy a meal all together. ( doesn' t she demand more time together? This is how she can get it. ).
Your office is a place of WORK. Off limit to ANYONE who does not need to be there including S.
She can retreat in your bedroom or in tge porch or better yet, she could clear up a room by unpacking her stuff.
Solution exist to please both party.
Make your voice be heard ..
I wish you nothing but the best Andrew!!
Xox
oh Andrew.
This, plainly speaking, s*cks.
It's not like I didn't have serious concerns, which you (and everyone else) knew, because I'm not a shrinking violet.
But, I hoped I was wrong.
There is no pleasure here in your current situation. To have watched you re-claim your home inch by inch, create a new routine that not only worked for you but that you enjoyed immensely, and to read your recent posts in contrast makes me very sad.
If you want to decorate, do it. Don't wait for anyone. Do it yourself. I waited years for exh to do things like that and nothing would get done, and I'd become resentful. Much, much better to do what matters to you without the help/"partnership" because at least you will have joy in doing it yourself.
I know you plan to let this play out. Always please keep in the back of your mind damage control. It's ok for an ending to not be scorched earth. I know YOU know this. Not sure about the other side, because I do not know S ... lead with kindness, make sure your voice is heard and keep standing up for yourself.
BTW, just because someone assaults you when you're unconscious doesn't mean you need to participate if you'd rather sleep.
It's worse I think because I had found that spark - so to lose it is more difficult than to have not had it
Very understandable, but was that spark ever really there? Or were you seeing what you wanted to see and hoping there was a spark. Sure, S may have done some things to fool you but I’ll bet at least in hindsight you can see now that the red flags were there all along. In time people will reveal themselves as who they are. I think it was more you seeing what you wanted to see
You are very entitled to a loud "I Told You So" it
I am somewhat fond of saying this but I will even take a pass. It’s more important to learn from this. To start, stop dating married women. There is a clear pattern here in most all the women you’ve dated are still married. Yes, they may be separated but still married. Both women who moved in did so within months and were married. It also appears S is a lot like your ex. It’s time to do something different and at least learn from these mistakes. There are better women out there. Yes, it may be harder to find them and harder to have reciprocal feelings from them but that too may say something.
It's either a nest egg or it's a "this is my money" situation.
It probably doesn’t matter. What does matter is you are subsidizing whatever it is. You are covering the budget shortfall so S can bank some of YOUR money. This is not right. She needs to contribute a fair share - not put your money in her bank for her nest egg!
LOL - it's about once every 2 weeks. Usually at about 3:00 am when I am sound asleep.
I had a sneaking suspicion. So now even sex can’t remain in the plus or positives column.
It's not as gloomy here though as you might think reading this though. I still haven't lost myself. He's just in a box right now.
You used to say this about your ex W - or was it in a box on a shelf? So at least you’re not on a shelf? People very often pick the same person over and over again - the same type of person. I really have to wonder if that’s not the case here. Your friends, family, even your barber see this is not working. There is zero shame in cutting your losses here. I didn’t say that this could play out and wait and see because it was the best plan. I just sense it’s the only plan you’ll accept. The thing is, you are smarter than this. It’s one thing when someone can’t help themselves when they just don’t have the tools to do better. But you do. Your friends see this. They won’t look down on you if you cut your losses. I’m not sure the same can be said if you continue on. I’m sure S feels it just as B did. Do you really want her to be the one to decide your future? Maybe instead of everyone supporting you in seeing this thorough we should all be supporting you in getting out. Is there really any good reasons to stay at this point?
I do give you huge applauses for your honesty. It can’t be easy to admit this to us all. Some would try to claim it’s all going well and fake their way through. You are strong enough to get out of that box. That should be plan A.
It's worse I think because I had found that spark - so to lose it is more difficult than to have not had it
Very understandable, but was that spark ever really there? Or were you seeing what you wanted to see and hoping there was a spark. Sure, S may have done some things to fool you but I’ll bet at least in hindsight you can see now that the red flags were there all along. In time people will reveal themselves as who they are. I think it was more you seeing what you wanted to see
I thought Andrew was talking about his own spark for life. Not his spark with S. He definitely had spark in his life prior to S. We could see how much he was enjoying his new life without XW once he embraced it.
I thought Andrew was talking about his own spark for life. Not his spark with S. He definitely had spark in his life prior to S. We could see how much he was enjoying his new life without XW once he embraced it.
You very well may be correct and if so I totally missed the point. Sorry about that. I would agree however that based on the tone and substance of Andrew’s posts in the last few months there is much less passion and zest for life than either current day S or the first few months post S entering the picture.
Turn over rocks - find worms.
I'm going to sound grumpier than I actually am but these are some hard facts. Many of which I've known - just not laid out so clearly.
S and her D26 are busy downstairs getting some basic organizing and tidy done so that we can host Thanksgiving for her family this coming weekend. She asked me to invite my son and when he stopped by on Sunday on his way to poker to drop off the cat carriers I did but also mentioned that it will be packed with S's clan. We're having brunch on Saturday and going to fix up a couple of things around his apartment.
I read back like I do from time to time and it was almost exactly a year ago that S planted a big smooch on me after date #2. I quipped at the time that I had found a "huntress". Yes indeedy do.
I've been making digital copies of S's music CDs for her although she makes amused expressions and doesn't really seem to care. While doing that I also found a stack of old photo CDs so copied those off to the portable drive I got her to store her backups and whatnot on. There were also a few old notebooks which had a dream journal and some random musings that I leafed through.
So - contrary to my belief, and exactly to the point that so many here made, S has never really gone any amount of time without some sort of man in her life. Including some overlaps. Meanwhile I'd admired her pluck and determination of surviving as a single Mom most of her adult life.
The revised math - which I actually had some knowledge of but didn't share is:
- #1 got married young - divorced quickly. Claims abusive.
- #2 common law for a few years, baby #1, temporary split
- #3 date new guy, get back together briefly with #2 have baby #2
- Marry #3 baby #3, split, baby #4, split, baby #5 hard split involving bankruptcies and him trying to get her forcibly evicted from the former marital home
- #1 again - get engaged, lots of happy family pictures, find out he's married, dump him. This probably overlapped with #3
- #4 - found on POF - quickly married - menopause so no more kids. Dream journal shows pining for #1 Dumps after it turns out he likes a tidy house, expects a perfect house-keeper and demonstrates poor financial acumen.
- #5 - turns out to be a total loser who lives above a strip bar - dramatic end
- #4 - reconciliation for probably 3 or 4 months at end of 2019 where it turned out he never changed. S16 left in apartment by himself for those months. A few years earlier he had actually moved in with his oldest sister for a summer - so a history of his mother just letting the chicks wander off.
- #6 - waves hand
There may well be others in there too. There certainly were long periods where she wasn't co-habitating with a partner but there always was one - or perhaps more in the wings. Is #4 still being kept in the wings as a backup? The odds are non-zero.
Interestingly S mentioned that she's had her "tornado" dream again which she said she's not had for a long time. Her dream journal mentioned those dreams as part of a series of bad dreams shortly after she married #4
The pattern appears to be - have a partner, have problems, leave partner but keep partner on the hook. Have someone else, go back to partner, get pregnant (waves to doodler who isn't here any more) and then end relationship with original partner. Gaps between are perhaps measured in months if that. I'm confident that she was going to reach out to me within a month or so of her failed reconciliation with #4 but that B beat her to it. Which is why she was waiting in the wings after B dumped me and leapt into action.
Does this actually change things? Probably not. It does hurt my sense of optimism and annoys me that in some ways that I've been "played" by a pro - even if not deliberately. From the first date or so though, I've not been given time to breathe and drama and anger has been used to push me along when I seemed slow to make a commitment which resulted in the engagement and then when I seemed slow to have her move in.
Introducing to kids and family all is done quickly. Prospective mate is love-bombed and not given any time to breathe / think and guilt is a common pressure tactic. Arguments usually start with S being offended at something I've said / done or if I question her choices. Then immediately deflected back, "you never listen to me", "I'm only trying to do what is best for you" yadda yadda yadda
---------------
Again - does this change anything? Not really. It does make me more cynical. "Can" this work? Sure. Will it work? The jury is out on that. Is it possible to form a healthy relationship here? Questionable. The fact that her family including her kids and parents have undoubtedly seen this pattern at work has to be tough on them as well. Her immediate family may perhaps treat this as "normal" but I do believe that her son-in-law has pretty clear vision.
Does S herself look at this so impartially? Doubtful.
Beyond the primary participants, I do worry about the boys. S18 has been making huge progress in self-confidence and behavior. He regularly expresses optimism that his mother is going to get her act together and purge and tidy. I've noticed that some of the manic behaviours he's had have slowed down and he's actively contributing more and being pro-active about things.
S13 - now that the good behaviour period is up has shown himself to be a rather lazy entitled little sod. I've gathered that his acting out is a thing of legend, especially when he's around his father who for a variety of reasons is paranoid of cracking down on him.
S herself knows that I'm unhappy but I don't see her ever changing her core behaviours. As we learn here, people are who they are and generally don't change. It's been suggested that some of her sleep and motivational issues may be chemically related. She's got a doctor's appt on Thursday to review her and S18's meds in fact.
Personally, I know that I'm one bad grump away from saying "you don't have to live here". Got close last night when she got home well after I was in bed from babysitting her GS, came in, woke me up in a friendly way being happy to be home / see me, dumped the dog on the bed and closed the door to watch TV and play on her phone. I don't like having any critters in with me and the dog tends to wander. So - I got up, handed the dog back to her remarking that the "moonlight wanderer" was perhaps happier with her then went back to bed where I then couldn't sleep. The dog made her pleasure known by depositing on the living room run - again - which was there for me to clean up in the morning. I don't believe anyone was in the living room so perhaps it's reasonable that got overlooked.
Trying to decide if I'll hit post on this. I've composed similar posts a few times and canceled. I hate to feel like I'm whining and complaining. It is plain and the crooked nose on my face though that she is indeed taking advantage of me and my good nature. The real question - which remains unanswered - is how will I proceed. I am conflict avoidant, optimistic and tend to believe in people. I am though also a much stronger person than I was 5 years or so ago not to mention more cynical.
Put her things back in the basement. Don't give away anything else you think she might need in her new place. Start saving some money up for the move out. It's terribly sad about the boys but it's not your responsibility, you've done the best you could with that.
Then - consider either returning to couples counseling, OR simply making an exit plan. You know better than us whether you think she's capable of change. (it sounds unlikely). She has $3,000 to contribute to moving out funds, you know that now. If you have to add a bit to that it sounds like you would still come out even in the end as you would be saving money in the long run.
It does sound like she lacks the skills to really be in a caring relationship (waking you up in the middle of the night and dumping the dog on you? She appears to have no respect for the fact that you work early in the morning! )
Also - you mentioned that you dated for a while before you saw the inside of her apartment. That might have just been because of the mess. OR - could she have still been with the last guy and just meeting up at son's apartment for your dates? You might have overlapped with her last guy.
She's UNLIKELY to go to her doctor and ask for a reduction in her pain meds. He might adjust her ADD meds but it's unlikely that she'll suddenly become more organized because of it.
And at the bottom of this all - everything else aside - this is simply not the lifestyle you want to be leading. You don't need someone who goes to bed as early as you but you do need someone who respects your sleep time and doesn't sleep in until afternoon. You don't need a compulsive housekeeper but you do need someone with at least minimal standards of cleanliness who doesn't leave food out on the stove overnight with dirty dishes. You don't need a frugal master but you do need someone who can see the benefit of a budget and can work with you on one. Taking on someone else's kids to raise sounds like a lofty goal but the reality of kids who have been raised in chaos may be a lot more than you really want to take on if the rest of the relationship with their mom isn't working.
Be prepared, if you do ask her to move out, that S18 might ask if he could stay with you. I don't know what you would feel about that. It could be bad to have a continued tie to her but if he really seems to be thriving and is perhaps a year away from being able to move out on his own, it might be a thought.
((((Andrew))))
My heart is absolutely breaking for you. You are a good guy and you deserve a partner who has her stuff together and can treat you as well as you treat her. I know others on here say those people in our age group don't exist but I choose to hold out hope just for the sake of people like you that they DO exist. I just don't happen to think S is one of them. I have tried so hard to stay on team S through all of this, but honestly, I'm just going to say what I always say...….people do NOT inherently change. She has a pattern. She has used her manipulative behavior over and over again to get her way, to make people feel sorry for her. She has never been a "single mom" in the true sense of the word because she's had a revolving door of people taking care of her and her brood. She is not likely to change that behavior, even for a good man such as yourself.
I'm not an expert on anything in this life, but I have been an educator for a long time so I like to think I know at least a little bit about kids. The things you pointed out about s13 and s18 seem to be fairly typical. S13 is ruled by the chaos and will likely, like his mother, manipulate and play on people's pity to take care of him for his entire life because he has learned by her example. S18, it sounds, though, has found a structure and routine under your tutelage that ALL kids crave whether they realize it or not. You've done right by both of those boys and s18 is reaping the rewards. Like kml said, I would not be at all surprised, if she goes, that he might be more than happy to stay. Something to think about and prepare for ahead of time so you aren't caught off guard if it does happen.
I have a pretty hard-line and unpopular opinion on ADD and other similar issues. I do believe that those issues actually exist in some people. I do not believe that they exist in everyone who is diagnosed. I saw it a lot in the 90's sadly, when kids were just spoiled or rude and parents were convinced they were ADD and insisted on them being given Ritalin or whatever else when what the kids needed was structure, guidance, etc. I think it is the same way in adults. S may well have ADD but I think she also has a laundry list of excuses and manipulations to keep people feeling sorry for her and feeling like she is incapable. It has been pointed out before, but if she has all these issues that she claims keeps her from organizing her crap in your house, how does she effectively take care of a small child on a regular basis? I realize she is the child's grandmother, but I wouldn't want her keeping my child, grandmother or not.
I don't normally advocate just throwing in the towel, but Andrew, honestly, I think you are looking at a lost cause at this point. You are waiting/hoping for something that just isn't going to happen. S isn't going to miraculously put all her stuff away and start cleaning up after herself and making her kids clean up after themselves. She's just not. She's found a meal ticket and is taking advantage of your kindness and your generosity. She is disrespectful of your wants, needs, and boundaries. She blatantly defies your budget and your wishes, despite you talking to her about it.
You say you are conflict avoidant and I get it. I am too. But is being conflict avoidant and just keeping your mouth shut and living with it really worth the crap you are dealing with at the moment? Honestly, there was a point in time where I would've kind of felt a little bad for S if this whole thing didn't work out. Now I just feel bad for you that you are losing yourself to the chaos.
((((Andrew)))) Take care of yourself, Andrew. I'm worried about you. I don't want you to be unhappy, but I also don't want you to be used and manipulated.
I suppose, too, when you're on vacation next week and doing all that work around the house, the picture may become clearer to you of what she's actually doing all day while you're at work. I've almost suggested several times that you consider a nanny cam - it might be revealing to see what's happening when you're asleep or at work (but be careful of laws in your area around recording people without their permission). It might just be that she's puttering around getting little done because she gets distracted or her back hurts - or you might find she's just lying on the couch, chatting with friends, watching the Kardashians and eating junk food all evening. (Hopefully not injecting or snorting any of her meds. )
It does seem clear though that she's not a noble single mother done wrong by her men but rather someone who has made bad choices repeatedly and always relied on men to bail her out and support her financially. Or maybe, more charitably, a very dysfunctional person who cannot really make it in the world, or someone with chronic back pain who slid into addiction.
I imagine you can't get away with this in your nationalized healthcare, but here in the US, a dead giveaway is if a patient had multiple prescriptions for pain meds from various doctors.
"Doctor shopping", showing up in urgent care and ER with an "acute" problem and getting another prescription. There are tighter controls in place now in my state but not yet in some others.
I again have to applaud you for having the courage to come clean about all of this - even if it took several attempts to do it. I know it can’t be easy to admit all of this.
Does this actually change things? Probably not.
---------------
Again - does this change anything? Not really.
You can’t be serious!!! After confirming pretty much what many here have told you and what I strongly suspect you’ve known all along, it still doesn’t change anything for you? Seriously? Then what would?
The real question - which remains unanswered - is how will I proceed. I am conflict avoidant, optimistic and tend to believe in people.
Yes, that is the real question. And you may be conflict avoidant and those other things but those are also only excuses. Time to put on your big boy pants Andrew. It’s not easy. Many things in life are not easy. But claiming you somehow can’t act because of avoidance is just a flat out excuse. Not saying again it’s not true and a real issue for you. Then get some help for it. Go see someone and change it. No, you will never be like me - lucky for you.
but you can learn skills to grow a pair for lack of a better phrase and a professional can help you with this. You will feel so much better about yourself and your life when you do. The info you are now admitting to yourself does change things. It most certainly does! Don’t run away from that. You must act on what you believe to be true and not stick your head in the sand hoping it will si ehow get better on its own.
"Doctor shopping", showing up in urgent care and ER with an "acute" problem and getting another prescription. There are tighter controls in place now in my state but not yet in some others.
Actually, all 50 states now have prescription monitoring databases. The majority have for about 5 plus years with the last state, Missouri, pretty much making the St. Louis system state wide and bring #50. The laws requiring when and who has to check it still very by state but in all honesty it’s not like they can somehow check that a doc is looking at the history before writing a script. Still, the days of doctor shopping in the USA are pretty much gone. Not saying it can’t still happen here or there but it’s now rather rare. Of course I have no idea about Canada. Stereotypically it’s often easier for a 50 something mother to convince a doctor she needs to continue narcotics than say a 23 year old who fell from a horse. It’s also harder to get those who’ve been on them for many years off than just not starting them in the first place. That is to say S might not get started on these meds today but already being on them is a more difficult issue. Of course there are some who do okay and dont fall into addiction. To say being on either of these much less both of them are not effecting things would be foolish. It’s just another box to check as to why you have got to get out of this situation.
I don’t want my tough stance to get overshadowed here. I know this is all hard for you but just like the drug therapy S is on, it’s hard to get off of but can be done. Also like the drugs it’s always easier if you don’t start to begin with. You can keep hoping your passive aggressive behavior will drive S away but at some point you may have to be the one to end this - especially since you have the most to lose. S and the kids will survive and move on. S will find #7 or #8 or whatever in no time. She’s done it before.
what she's actually doing all day while you're at work.
I work from home 4 days / week so I have a somewhat clear idea. She does help S13 with his home schooling which is only in the past week or so. She says she has "work" to do although that seems to involve leaving her bills unopened (a huge red flag) and she does some mild puttering and will go through boxes and put things away.. There is occasionally paper that gets moved around. Meals and housekeeping are reluctantly done as rarely as possible. Once I'm done for the day it's in front of the TV with her phone until she goes to bed. One of her biggest complaints is that there's nowhere for her to "work". Other than like the kitchen, the dining room, the table she put in the dressing room, and the table she has in the office. So she finds that difficult.
I do think she's responsible with her meds. Even the supplemental weed (to relax her back muscles) is fairly rare. She's more likely to forget to take her meds than abuse them. While I won't post what the meds are, I believe the one for her back isn't pain related but more to reduce the chances of spasms. There may be a dependency there but I don't feel that it controls her life. She seems to run out of her ADD meds before renewal fairly often and gets sleepy and dis-organized. I don't "think" she has an after-market for those.
Again - the picture being painted is very dark and gloomy and yes, I'm not a happy camper at the present. Would I be happier alone right now? Undoubtedly. Is this a more difficult situation compared to what I lived with for 26 years? Also, undoubtedly. Would me being a grump and grumbly make this any better - not at all.
I'm not someone who gives up easily. I would be less than honest to S and more importantly to myself if I didn't give this every chance to succeed and attitude is a big part of that. I do need to work on trying to ignite my own spark that has been lost. A key difference between now though and the past is that in reality, I've got nothing to lose if this doesn't work out beyond what I've sunk into it. My "self" is still intact.
Well then, you’re going to have to be more assertive about what you want. And you might need to go to couples counseling to do that. She’s sleeping half the day so she can “work” half the day then knock off when you do.
Seems to me it would be reasonable to say:
Anything not put away by ex date is going into deep basement storage because this level of mess is not acceptable to me
I need you to leave me alone when I’m sleeping. If you can’t align your sleep schedule with mine you need to at least let me sleep in peace. (Or you could passive -aggressively wake her up at 5 am on weekends for sex lol)
We need to sit down and plan out weekly menus so we can control our grocery bills.
A key difference between now though and the past is that in reality, I've got nothing to lose if this doesn't work out beyond what I've sunk into it. My "self" is still intact.
I actually fear that you may well have more to lose if it does work out. Your motivation, willingness to try and make this work is much less in doubt than hers. Of course you can only control you. I know you want to give this every chance but I’d be willing to bet most of the rest of us are praying it does not work out - for your own good. Please make her prove herself and put any thought of marriage on hold. Then again with her not even pursuing D yet that does prove a safety valve.
If she’s not on an opioid narcotic and is instead on a muscle relaxer that would actually be a good thing. Even a benzo would be better though still of a high concern. Unless used as part of a drug cocktail a muscle relaxer is not addicting and has far less chance of creating other problems. A benzodiazepine like Valium, Atavan or even Xanax carries addiction issues than can sometimes be as bad as an opioid. Still if she’s not on Vicodin, morphine, dilaidid or oxycodone, (or similar) that would offer a bit more encouragement and be a good thing.
You keep saying you don’t want to give up, you want to remain hopeful and optimistic....
But you can’t remain hopeful and optimistic that she becomes someone she is not. She is who she is, she does what she does. It’s not going to change. Just as you aren’t going to change. She isn’t going to magically become clean, tidy, or motivated. She isn’t all of a sudden going to be able to care for herself and take responsibility. She isn’t going to become unlazy, want to get off the couch, go for walks, go on adventures, travel.
She’s going to remain her. That’s not changing.
You would have to change or just tolerate and accept living as you are. And why would you do that? What Benedict is in it it for you to do that?
I just can’t u sweat and what “being optimistic and hopeful” means to you. What do you hope for? That she becomes someone she fundamentally she is not? Or that you adapt to who she is ?
I do agree with Don, it takes a lot of guys to share this stuff. I also think it’s good that you are aren’t turning a blind eye to all of this . But I do believe you have to realistic with what the situation is and not hope it magically changes. Hat may take you some time, and that’s ok.
And instead of being optimistic and hopeful that this relationship will work out, be optimistic and hopeful that your life will be very rich if it doesn’t. Just like it was. Think about everything it was and could be.
The only shame that could ever come out of this is repeating this again pattern again. Meet someone and move them in right away. It was very romantic when you were a young unattached man and your ex wife was a young unattached woman where you were just beginning to build your lives. It just doesn’t work that way in adulthood after we’ve established careers, had kids, and became fundamentally who we are over many years. Finding and taking the time to make sure we are compatible is necessary later in life. There are too many important things at risk. And you shouldn’t have to be “risky” if someone really loves you and wants to be with you.
We all wish you the best. No one wants to see you be hurt and used and unhappy. And I imagine if some random people on the internet and your barber feel that way. I could imagine how your kids and friends and family feel.
And instead of being optimistic and hopeful that this relationship will work out, be optimistic and hopeful that your life will be very rich if it doesn’t. Just like it was. Think about everything it was and could be.
I really like this. Thank you.
The pattern appears to be - have a partner, have problems, leave partner but keep partner on the hook. Have someone else, go back to partner, get pregnant (waves to doodler who isn't here any more) and then end relationship with original partner. Gaps between are perhaps measured in months if that. I'm confident that she was going to reach out to me within a month or so of her failed reconciliation with #4 but that B beat her to it. Which is why she was waiting in the wings after B dumped me and leapt into action.
Would you say this is where you currently are in her pattern, because it seems to me to be so??
Does this actually change things? Probably not. It does hurt my sense of optimism and annoys me that in some ways that I've been "played" by a pro - even if not deliberately.
I can understand why you feel that way. This part, though, leaps out at me:
From the first date or so though, I've not been given time to breathe and drama and anger has been used to push me along when I seemed slow to make a commitment which resulted in the engagement and then when I seemed slow to have her move in.
Introducing to kids and family all is done quickly. Prospective mate is love-bombed and not given any time to breathe / think and guilt is a common pressure tactic. Arguments usually start with S being offended at something I've said / done or if I question her choices. Then immediately deflected back, "you never listen to me", "I'm only trying to do what is best for you" yadda yadda yadda
The parts in bold are especially HUGE red flags to me. It indicates an unwillingness towards self-reflection, personal accountability, and creating a hostile environment so that there will never be any true open or honest communication of anyone's needs but her own. This is absolute BS and my friend, you deserve better.
---------------
Again - does this change anything? Not really. It does make me more cynical. "Can" this work? Sure.
How are you defining "work" because where I'm sitting the only one working is you, and that's not likely to change. My question to you is have you come this far to spend the rest of your life in a relationship where your basic needs aren't met and won't even be acknowledged? Only you can answer this.
Will it work? The jury is out on that. Is it possible to form a healthy relationship here? Questionable. The fact that her family including her kids and parents have undoubtedly seen this pattern at work has to be tough on them as well. Her immediate family may perhaps treat this as "normal" but I do believe that her son-in-law has pretty clear vision.
He's probably got the over/under down, if you want a true look into the possible future.
Does S herself look at this so impartially? Doubtful.
I would say no, Hedoublehockeysticks NO. Kind of makes me wonder what #s1-5 would say about their relationships with her in contrast to her perspective/what's she's said to you.
Beyond the primary participants, I do worry about the boys. S18 has been making huge progress in self-confidence and behavior. He regularly expresses optimism that his mother is going to get her act together and purge and tidy. I've noticed that some of the manic behaviours he's had have slowed down and he's actively contributing more and being pro-active about things.
S13 - now that the good behaviour period is up has shown himself to be a rather lazy entitled little sod. I've gathered that his acting out is a thing of legend, especially when he's around his father who for a variety of reasons is paranoid of cracking down on him.
You worry because you are a caring, decent human being who is unselfish to a fault. Remember that they are not your responsibility and that you can extend an invitation to her 18yo should you choose to, as others have already stated.
S herself knows that I'm unhappy but I don't see her ever changing her core behaviours. As we learn here, people are who they are and generally don't change. It's been suggested that some of her sleep and motivational issues may be chemically related. She's got a doctor's appt on Thursday to review her and S18's meds in fact.
Personally, I know that I'm one bad grump away from saying "you don't have to live here". Got close last night when she got home well after I was in bed from babysitting her GS, came in, woke me up in a friendly way being happy to be home / see me, dumped the dog on the bed and closed the door to watch TV and play on her phone. I don't like having any critters in with me and the dog tends to wander. So - I got up, handed the dog back to her remarking that the "moonlight wanderer" was perhaps happier with her then went back to bed where I then couldn't sleep. The dog made her pleasure known by depositing on the living room run - again - which was there for me to clean up in the morning. I don't believe anyone was in the living room so perhaps it's reasonable that got overlooked.
No. The FIRST thing she should have done upon getting home is taken that poor animal out for a gentle airing. That's called abuse. Abuse towards the animal, who has no option but to crap in the house and abuse and extreme disrespect of you and everyone else who lives there. As an animal lover this just frosts my cookies until they snap!!!
Trying to decide if I'll hit post on this. I've composed similar posts a few times and canceled. I hate to feel like I'm whining and complaining. It is plain and the crooked nose on my face though that she is indeed taking advantage of me and my good nature. The real question - which remains unanswered - is how will I proceed. I am conflict avoidant, optimistic and tend to believe in people. I am though also a much stronger person than I was 5 years or so ago not to mention more cynical.
{{{{{{{Andrew}}}}}}}
I'm confused about timelines. You stated she was involved with #4 reconciliation at the end of 2019? did you mean 2018? Because she was clearly with you and pushing for marriage by the end of 2019.
Ok, I'm just gonna put this out there: clearly, she's exhibited some behaviors she's shown in the past: half-hearted attempts to clean up her act, etc. to "fix" what's wrong with the relationship du jour ... I have to ask this Andrew- how do you know she's not lining up #7 right now? i'm sorry to be that direct, but it does seem to be her pattern, and you've said she knows you're not happy.
You are absolutely NOT whining or complaining. It seems to me you're taking a hard, honest look at this situation and pondering your options.
I apologize if I've been harsh here. Her utter selfishness and immaturity with regard to her children and these animals she is supposed to be responsible for sends me over the edge.
Maybe a more Buddhist approach would serve everyone best, so here's my feeble attempt:
We do not know what the soul contract is between you. Perhaps she is in your life to simply give you an opportunity to choose whether you want the life you'd created for yourself pre-S coming on the scene or would rather live in a situation that's the antithesis of that. Perhaps she's supposed to teach you that you are worthy of standing up for yourself. Perhaps you're supposed to teach her 18yo son another way of life. I'm deliberately not calling him S18 because language is important and that implies he's your responsibility in some way, which is absolutely not the case.
Andrew, you're a good guy who deserves more than you're getting. I'm sorry this is where you're at with this relationship.
Andrew,
Please, please read all of the postings that you have received in the last 24 hours. I agree w/them 100% and you know, how I feel about unpacked boxes, smelly rabbit hutches, stuff lying around....unacceptable by all of our standards.
All I can say is this...we all can't be wrong in what we are reading and stating, especially if people IRL are saying the same things to you. Maybe it's time you take a little trip away from your home for a day or so by yourself and just ponder if this is really what you want to come home to every day for the rest of your life.
If anyone is going to change in that household, it will be you, i.e., either you accept the mess and half hearted attempts to get things done, her lack of a job, etc. or you get firm w/her and no matter how she acts out...get the words out and tell her what needs to be done. You are going to have to be firm w/her. If she gets upset and/or angry at what you say, what is the worse she can do? Pout, pack a bag and run away? Maybe that's what she needs to do and come to the realization that you are a wonderful catch and if she doesn't step up, she may very well be out the door.
Time for S to either sh*t or get off the pot. She's been sitting on that pot long enough.
Man, we have some smart folks on this board. Seriously, Andrew......please take what everyone is saying to heart. The underlying message that I'm reading from all of these posts is that people think you are a stand up guy and want better for you than what you are currently getting.
I really do hate to come to your page and always be harsh or negative with you, but I swear it comes from a place of genuine concern and virtual friendship. I want you to have a happy life and your current situation is not giving you that. You have to see and know that S isn't going to change. I have had the same thought that bttrfly voiced ever since I read your post where you outlined her "history". I have been wondering if the next one is already on the hook and she's biding her time in your house until she has that one locked down.
I also agree with bttrfly about the HUGE red flags that her responses of anger, manipulation, "you're not listening to me" bring....she is steady trying to blame you for anything and everything while not taking any of that on herself. That is NOT how rational adults behave. It just isn't. You know that, I know that, we all know that.
You are a nice guy. You have a HUGE, caring, loving heart. And, I dare say you are a tad stubborn (Scottish maybe?) in that you don't want to give up. I get it. I really do. But, Andrew, love, PLEASE take time to really think about all this and act accordingly. If you are waiting for a miracle, well, sadly, those are few and far between and I just somehow don't think you are going to get one where S is concerned. Furthermore, I think she's taking you for a ride to see how much she can get out of you before moving to #7. I said it awhile back and bttrfly touched on it too....think about what she's said to you about all the men before you and how everything was all their fault and look at how she is with you. Don't you wish you knew more about the other side of the story now? I bet it looks a whole lot different than how she tells it.
I know you don't want to be alone/lonely, but is acquiescing to her needs all the time really preventing you from being lonely? You aren't alone, obviously, but are you lonely even with her since you share no common interests? For me, personally, the biggest red flag in all of this is that despite forcing your hand in the marriage arena, she STILL isn't divorced. It seems to me that while at one point, her excuse was more about the financial aspects, you now know that she has more than enough money saved up to get it done. So, is that guy going to be #7 or is she just really that lazy? I mean, seriously, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but when my XH wanted out, I was done and there was no d@mn way I would've drug it out for any length of time. He dropped the bomb on me on Sept. 29 and we were divorced before Christmas....3 months total. And, the only reason it took that long was because we lived in a small, rural area and there was only one judge and he was out sick for a couple of weeks so the actual signing of the papers got pushed back until he got better. We should've been out by 1st of Dec, which would have made it 2 months. My point is, where there is a will there is a way and she doesn't seem to have the will to get it done. There has to be a reason and I'm not buying that the reason has anything to do with medical insurance. As a "poor single mother" there are surely programs she can get on for assistance with healthcare so that she doesn't have to rely on her HUSBAND (notice I didn't call him STBX because that doesn't seem to be her progression) to provide that to her.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Andrew)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Seriously, man, I'm not a fan of cold weather, which is one of the reasons I stay in the South, but d@mn dude....she is gonna make me come up there and have a come to Jesus meeting with her. #freeandrew
Dawn my hit is that #4 is going to be #7.
Only Andrew can free himself, but I'm thinking we need to form #TeamAndrew, and maybe get tartan scarves to show our solidarity. Andrew, dear, we need to know which clan Tartan our scarves will be???
Dawn my hit is that #4 is going to be #7.
Only Andrew can free himself, but I'm thinking we need to form #TeamAndrew, and maybe get tartan scarves to show our solidarity. Andrew, dear, we need to know which clan Tartan our scarves will be???
Could be...is that the husband? And, yes, only Andrew can free himself, but I'm totally #TeamAndrew and will wear my tartan proudly, despite the fact that Arkansas doesn't really get cold enough for scarves until about January, but I'm down to wear mine now with my short sleeved t-shirts.
#4 - found on POF - quickly married - menopause so no more kids. Dream journal shows pining for #1 Dumps after it turns out he likes a tidy house, expects a perfect house-keeper and demonstrates poor financial acumen……….
#4 - reconciliation for probably 3 or 4 months at end of 2019 where it turned out he never changed.
Sounds more to me like he discovered her hoarding and sloppiness, they broke up, she probably came back claiming to have changed (and maybe claiming it'd be easier for her to keep things clean with S18 out of the way? Maybe he was the scapegoat?) . Then she went right back to her old ways - it wasn't HE who hadn't changed but HER.
She actually left her son at 16 years old alone to be with a man?
That’s absolutely awful. My ex and his sister got left alone at 15 and 16 as their father went to live his girlfriend. He came on sundays to cook and shop. The other days of the week there was drugs sex and alcohol going on in that house. Their mom got sent off to live cross county after her psychotic break....
I always thought it to be so horribly sad these kids were left to watch after themselves. It was pure neglect.
She neglected her child. That is not the kindness you say is so important to you.
Honestly, I don’t see her kindness anywhere. She uses men, neglects her children, shuts you down when you try to communicate , neglects her pets, and dumps them on you.
Is this truly kindness, Andrew?
ok in an attempt to help Andrew and throw some positive vibes this way, can I get a show of hands for the #TeamAndrew Tartan-wearing crew so I know how many scarves to order? So far we have myself and Dawn. G? you in? Job? Kml? DonH? LH? Don't wanna leave anyone out ...
She actually left her son at 16 years old alone to be with a man?
That’s absolutely awful. My ex and his sister got left alone at 15 and 16 as their father went to live his girlfriend. He came on sundays to cook and shop. The other days of the week there was drugs sex and alcohol going on in that house. Their mom got sent off to live cross county after her psychotic break....
I always thought it to be so horribly sad these kids were left to watch after themselves. It was pure neglect.
She neglected her child. That is not the kindness you say is so important to you.
Honestly, I don’t see her kindness anywhere. She uses men, neglects her children, shuts you down when you try to communicate , neglects her pets, and dumps them on you.
Is this truly kindness, Andrew?
I agree, I haven’t seen any kindness at all, either to Andrew, her kids or her pets. I can’t imagine storing my dead pet in my freezer.
Dawn my hit is that #4 is going to be #7.
Only Andrew can free himself, but I'm thinking we need to form #TeamAndrew, and maybe get tartan scarves to show our solidarity. Andrew, dear, we need to know which clan Tartan our scarves will be???
Scarves? Not bow ties?
My mother always claimed that on my Dad's side that we were related to the kings of Scotland and were a sept of clan Donal. Not sure how true that is as my own experience is that my ancestors were all poor dirt farmers who were so bad at it that they probably grew more rocks than dirt. A distant relative actually got quite rich and famous selling rocks. I do have documentary evidence in the form of a letter and plaque that my direct ancestors were thrown out of Venezuela 200 years ago for being "drunken idle Scotsmen". A revelation that did not shock my ex-wife at all and perhaps is appropriate for royalty? A very distant relation was also the last person burned at the stake for witchcraft in Scotland. Not sure what the tartan is for that
I loaned one of the two books I have on that to S I think and can't find it. Fortunately that one is still in print so I can get another copy if it doesn't turn up.
Thanks all. I do appreciate the love and support so very much.
There's more whining and grumbling I can do but I'm going to avoid it. S curled up next to me shortly after I got to bed and stayed, held me and said that everything will work out just fine and get better. I had apologized for being "a big ole grump lately".
Listened to a favourite podcast this morning and as if often the case and is no surprise given the truly amazing writing, there were nuggets in there.
I’m tired of being cool. I was going to say trying to be cool, but trying implies the possibility of failure, and there has never been a moment when I’ve failed to be cool. But here’s the hard truth I’ve come up against: being cool is a young person’s game. And that’s not because young people are better or more interesting than older people. God no. God no. God no! It’s that coolness itself is a concept tied to youth. Coolness is a reactionary manifestation of insecurity. The more insecure you are, the cooler you need to be. It’s colorful plumage.
But as I’ve gotten older, I no longer need flashy plumage. I just wanna sit in the comfort of who I am, and not worry about what that looks like from the outside.
An abundance of words, words falling, fluttering to the earth. Words crunching beneath our feet. They were beautiful once, the words. Now they are beginning to rot, to wilt, to compost, to ferment new growth. To fertilize new words growing upon great trunks of paragraphs and chapters, but not now. Those will come later. Now the words sputter and drop in spiraling arcs to the ground.
Busy day today I think. A customer had a spill yesterday which is something we take very very seriously so I'm digging out paperwork and checking forms, procedures and ensuring we have been and continue to be not just compliant but exceed the norms of material handling. It appears that the container was damaged after it was shipped although the customer is claming that they couldn't possibly have damaged it. Fortunately the affected employee got to the shower quickly and only had very minor burns plus undoubtedly damp under-gotchies.
I expect a big pile of dishes when I get home. I didn't do them last night as the kitchen was in chaos but S and her daughter made strong progress on finding enough of the dining room to host Thanksgiving. S is off with her S18 to yet another doctor's appointment today and so probably won't be home until quite late.
I'm having brunch with my son on Saturday and we're going to repair his screen door so "the girls" can go "yik" at the wee birdies. Certainly very very different having them gone. S's two cats are much less engaged in the goings on in the house.
Thanks again my friends.
well, the guys can wear bowties while we ladies sport scarves ...
there's more I would say, but I'm choosing to shut up.
Just watch for the actions to match the words.
Just watch for the actions to match the words.
over time. not a one or two-off
Just watch for the actions to match the words.
over time. not a one or two-off
I totally agree... and would add don’t make excuses or give her a pass for her actions or lack of them. I think she’s been given too many passes for not doing things, not following through, and living like she has because of X, Y ,Z or because she has A, B, C. She’s going to “start a business” but can’t even clean up dog poop? People are who they are. Us trying to hope or pretend otherwise does no one any good.
Andrew,
I can't help but notice that S has this way of coming back around and reassuring you that everything will work out when she knows that you are upset or pointing out that things are not getting done. Listen, that song gets old and just how long does she think it will take for "everything to work out"? Another six, 10 or 12 months? Sounds to me that she's concerned that the wedding band won't be placed on her hand and she's weaving you a tall tale to get you back in her sticky web with reassurances.
As others have pointed out....actions speak louder than words. So far, her actions don't like up w/her well meant intentions.
hey i just had a thought - what's the cohabitation rule in Canada? Meaning, how long does a couple have to live together before one party is entitled to some financial recompense should things not work out? Am I being overly cautious in thinking that's good information for Andrew to have in his back pocket?
I believe he looked into that before she moved in but maybe not with this scenario in mind
I can't help but notice that S has this way of coming back around and reassuring you that everything will work out when she knows that you are upset or pointing out that things are not getting done.
I wonder if she reads here.
what's the cohabitation rule in Canada?
In Ontario, Canada, two people are considered common law partners if they have been continuously living together in a conjugal relationship for at least three years. If they have a child together by birth or adoption, then they only need to have been living together for one year.
Add me to the scarf list please!
((dream)) - and everyone else.
I wonder if she reads here.
It's certainly within the realm of possibility. She knows that I have a number of friends from "an online divorce support group" and she's walked up behind me while this screen has been up although the logo is obscured. And she's undoubtedly noticed that windows get minimized when she pops in behind me.
I've not written anything that I would need to take back, nor even have difficulty explaining. I used to hope that my then wife would find this place and read and know how much I was hurting, but in this case, no. It would certainly be awkward and she would be pretty upset to read what I've written I'm sure and there's no sign of the sort of anger that I am positive would be directed my way.
I do know that she did have her kids "hack" her former partner's computer where they found his online dating profile and evidence of porn usage. She knows the pass-code to get into my phone as I know her's. While my phone is pretty much always on me, my tablet is usually left laying around here and there. So - if she looked - it could be found.
But just like the fact that while I have access to her devices, I've not looked at her texting / messaging despite a level of curiosity on the matter. Private conversations are best left private. In the musings of a person who is finding their way through the muck, there is undoubtedly muck to be found. And as we all know very clearly, it is so very easy to mis-interpret or take the written word out of context.
And there's a concept on another site called "marriage police" and sometimes here as "trust but verify" and I never want to be in that situation. I choose to trust in good intentions while at the same time knowing that there could well be surprises lurking around the corner. As has been mused, with S it could even be an OM although I strongly doubt that. More likely I would find perhaps similar grumbling to her own friends and family or perhaps nothing much at all. Interestingly like with B, keeping quiet about her personal life is a thing. There's nothing on social media anywhere about us being a couple / engaged etc. Like with B, I've followed her lead and kept things quiet as well. It does strike me as odd though because you would think that someone who has found a new partner and new life would be happy to share that. But no - as far as her external profile goes, I don't exist. So there may be little to see even if I did go looking.
As I've said many times in the past, I firmly believe in not doing anything that I'm reluctant to explain to my Maker, my auditor or my wife. S has a bit more casual approach to the truth I think as I have probably mentioned in the past. Certainly something that would have been a hard no for me but also something that I never found out until later when she was annoyed at my refusal to lie about something trivial to her boys.
I'm still in a place where I am pretty sure she's looking for the exit. She seems to continue to draw back from me physically, emotionally and in communication. In the absence of some sort of "casus belli" it's perhaps harder to do. It's odd how I see similarities to my ex-wife coming out but then again that's undoubtedly my colouring her with the brush of what I was used to. Certainly a problem with any new relationship and I need to recognize her individuality and uniqueness. Like her though, she doesn't seem capable of sustained effort. And as job so wisely put, it is consistent actions and not just intentions that count.
Part of the issue too is undoubtedly the fact that I am fairly obviously and demonstrably grumpy about the state of things. It is no doubt harder to love someone who isn't happy. I take that on myself both from the point of view that I'm being true to my honest feelings but at the same point poisoning the well we both need to drink from. A difficult thing to manage. I do my best to find the good and the positive but can only go so far. And there are good and positive things. S has put in effort into organizing her stuff and the house. She is loving and sweet the majority of the time. I didn't start dating her because I needed a housekeeper after-all - although I could perhaps use one now
And no - a housekeeper is out of the question especially for the present. There is too much chaos that they would not be allowed to deal with.
One foot in front of the other as it were. I tried to wake S up at 10:00 which used to be her goal for getting herself on a schedule. Two hours later she's still where I left her. I believe that in part it's exhaustion from a very busy couple of weeks and I also believe that she's feeling blue and not wanting to face the world. She opened the door briefly when the dog was fussing and then again to let her back in. I made a correct assumption and did the clean-up on aisle #2. There is a pad in the bathroom which got used as intended and the use of the rug was perhaps a "statement". I am the only one who cleans up the pad and I didn't double-check it this morning so perhaps that was part of the issue too. I rarely use that bathroom and perhaps need to adjust my patterns.
This afternoon we're going to go pick up S13 from his Dad's place where he's been all week - rather to my surprise especially considering his dad is working full time from home and S13 needs supervision for his online schooling. But then again, she doesn't seem to have an issue with her kids being someone else's responsibility - which is certainly superficially bizarre but is a consistent pattern with all of her kids. According to reports, school is happening.
Saturday I'm having brunch with my son, get to see "the girls" and we're going to fix his screen door which will make the girls happy I'm sure and S26 able to get more fresh air. Sunday, big Thanksgiving dinner here - 6 more large boxes of "stuff" came up from her Dad's house - mostly the good china and silver from what I understand that S has been dreaming of getting into her possession for many many years. Her Dad kept saying that he was worried that she wouldn't take care of it properly.
Her middle daughter is unexpectedly in Alberta for reasons nobody is clear on and won't be attending which is fine by me because she's back with her BF who I can't stand. So it will be S, myself, the two younger boys, her Dad, oldest daughter + husband and grandson. 8 people total.
I grumbled a bit that I miss cooking nice dinners - Thanksgiving will be done by S and her oldest daughter - so S suggested that I do up one on Monday for her, her boys and my son. I passed on that for a whole bucket full of reasons.
It will be odd to not spend Thanksgiving to my son for the first time ever I believe. I hope he goes and spends it with his mother.
There was another quote in that podcast that was actually the part that I meant to reference. With such great writing, it's easy I suppose to get lost.
My favorite song of all time is a blank cassette tape still in its plastic wrapper. It was owned by a man named Gary Joy. He was a real estate lawyer, reasonably successful, but he always dreamed of being a singer/songwriter. He dreamed all the time of quitting his job and writing songs, but he had never even written one song. Then one day, in a fit of optimism and energy, he bought this cassette, intending to make his first demo. But the day got away from him, and then the week, and then the rest of his life, and he never quit being a lawyer, and he never even wrote one song. This blank cassette tape, still in its wrapper, contains the potential of all the songs he could have written but never did, which is better and more powerful than any song anyone’s actually managed to write. The potential of the thing is always more perfect than the reality of the thing. However, and this is the crucial drawback, the potential is absolutely useless and the reality, however imperfect, can be quite useful.
Anyway, I like to hold Gary Joy’s unwritten demo and imagine what it would be like.
But just like the fact that while I have access to her devices, I've not looked at her texting / messaging despite a level of curiosity on the matter. Private conversations are best left private. In the musings of a person who is finding their way through the muck, there is undoubtedly muck to be found. And as we all know very clearly, it is so very easy to mis-interpret or take the written word out of context.
And there's a concept on another site called "marriage police" and sometimes here as "trust but verify" and I never want to be in that situation. I choose to trust in good intentions while at the same time knowing that there could well be surprises lurking around the corner. As has been mused, with S it could even be an OM although I strongly doubt that. More likely I would find perhaps similar grumbling to her own friends and family or perhaps nothing much at all. Interestingly like with B, keeping quiet about her personal life is a thing. There's nothing on social media anywhere about us being a couple / engaged etc. Like with B, I've followed her lead and kept things quiet as well. It does strike me as odd though because you would think that someone who has found a new partner and new life would be happy to share that. But no - as far as her external profile goes, I don't exist. So there may be little to see even if I did go looking.
When Sparky and I were first dating, there wasn't a lot of our presence on the other's social media, but once we got serious, we started posting a lot. I can't help but wonder if S's lack of posting about you on social media is tied to her current state as being married to someone else. Suddenly announcing she's engaged to Andrew would, no doubt, raise a lot of questions that she may just not be able or willing to answer. Isn't that a red flag for you? It would be a huge one for me. I mean, not necessarily the part about being private about your personal life, but the whole part about still being married so there almost being a forbidden component to what she can put out there and what she can't.
As far as the marriage police, maybe I'm naïve (don't bother to tell me I am or I am wrong because this is how I believe and how I choose to live my life and if it bites me on the butt later, well, so be it), but I just don't see the need to have access to my partner's phone or give him access to mine. I will freely hand him my phone if I'm driving and get a text or phone call and ask him to open it and respond and he does the same for me. I occasionally give him my phone to look up something specific or look at an app I have and he doesn't or whatever, but I don't have anything to hide, so I don't care if he scrolls through my whole dang phone while he's got it. He's the same with me. However, both of us trust each other, so we don't feel the need to have unlimited access to the other's phone. I just don't get it. Like I said maybe I'm naïve, but I have way more things to worry about than trying to dig through Sparky's phone to see if he is cheating on me. There is a level of trust with him that makes that unnecessary for me. Others see it differently, I know, and that is on them.
One foot in front of the other as it were. I tried to wake S up at 10:00 which used to be her goal for getting herself on a schedule. Two hours later she's still where I left her. I believe that in part it's exhaustion from a very busy couple of weeks and I also believe that she's feeling blue and not wanting to face the world. She opened the door briefly when the dog was fussing and then again to let her back in. I made a correct assumption and did the clean-up on aisle #2. There is a pad in the bathroom which got used as intended and the use of the rug was perhaps a "statement". I am the only one who cleans up the pad and I didn't double-check it this morning so perhaps that was part of the issue too. I rarely use that bathroom and perhaps need to adjust my patterns.
So, Andrew....I have to be firm here. STOP IT! Just stop it. You can believe what you want and I'm not going to change that regardless of what I say, but what part of ANYTHING that she has DONE shows you she is serious about "getting on a schedule"? This is what people have been saying. Actions speak louder than words and her action (or lack of action, more precisely) speaks VOLUMES.
I'm really perturbed about this whole dog thing. Why is that yet another thing in the house that is YOUR responsibility? She clearly doesn't take responsibility for anything, including her self. When Sparky and I got married, I had a smaller inside dog and he had 2 large outside dogs. Since my dog is in the house most of the time and only goes out under supervision (one of the big dogs is kind of aggressive, though he really is just trying to play), I take the lead in cleaning up after her if she has an accident. Now, yes, every once in a great while, Sparky has to do it, but 9 times out of 10, I handle it without a thought because she is MY responsibility. Sparky loves her and treats her well and he feeds her a lot of the time, mainly so she'll know that she can rely on him too and that he loves her, but it is on me to clean up after her. I'm sorry, but this is now what, the 3rd time in a few days this has been an issue and you have handled it every time without a word, as though you are just supposed to clean up everyone's sh!t.
I grumbled a bit that I miss cooking nice dinners - Thanksgiving will be done by S and her oldest daughter - so S suggested that I do up one on Monday for her, her boys and my son. I passed on that for a whole bucket full of reasons.
Why not cook on occasion like you used to and S and her brood can join you or not, but you can still get the joy of cooking and eating your nice meals. Why let her steal that joy from you? This will sound super judgy on my part, but it seems pretty clear that S doesn't cook much and that she and her boys subsist on a lot of pre-packaged stuff. Whether that is a convenience thing or she will say it is a gluten or allergy issue or whatever, doesn't really matter. I just think she is too lazy to cook very often so she grabs whatever is easy.
I'm sorry to be so direct and judgy because I have plenty of my own faults, but seriously Andrew, it really makes me angry to see such a nice, good, decent guy get taken such advantage of. Some of the things you have said about her just don't add up for me. I think you have mentioned before that she is educated and majored in English maybe? (I could totally be getting her confused with someone else.) I just feel like her whole adult life is a pattern where she has never learned to take responsibility for or take care of herself and her own "mess" for lack of a better word. And, now she's roped you into her rodeo. It just isn't right...…………………………………….
Interestingly like with B, keeping quiet about her personal life is a thing. There's nothing on social media anywhere about us being a couple / engaged etc
I think that’s not a very good sign. I don’t post a ton about my relationship - and I’ve never used that relationship status thing, I feel like it’s a trap! But someone who is engaged and excited about moving in with the man she wants to spend the rest of their life with, and doesn’t post about it? That’s a huge waving red flag. It might just be that she’s afraid to jinx it . But it also might be that she doesn’t want any info on her FB profile that would discourage/turn off a prospective new guy. Or conflict with whatever stories she’s telling her exes.
A married woman (even if it's legal only) does herself no favours by posting about being engaged to another man.
Andrew, imagine you have a hula hoop around you. Everything inside of that hula hoop is your responsibility. Everything outside of it is NOT.
Someone else's dog's poop is NOT your responsibility. If you don't clean it, will it just be left there? My guess is, probably, and that's probably what happened at her apartment.
Andrew, honestly, go away for a few days. Maybe go visit your daughter. Alone. Come back and really look at what's become of your home and what you've agreed to become a partner to for the remainder of your life. You need some serious detachment so you can get some true perspective and decide for yourself what's acceptable and what just plain and simply isn't.
You do not have to wait for someone else to make the break. Are you concerned about how it will look if you tell her and the various animals and children they need to leave? Whoever would judge you can come over and clean the dog $h!t.
xoxo
((((Andrew))))
I'm teary eyed. Just want to cry for you.
There's so many things wrong with your relationship in your last post... no need to share my negative thoughts about them.
We're here for you.
I'm happy you're having brunch with your son tomorrow.
I agree with Bttrfly,
I honestly think a few days away at your daughter’s would be very beneficial. Removing yourself from the chaos for a while will do you good.
I agree with Bttrfly, I honestly think a few days away at your daughter’s would be very beneficial. Removing yourself from the chaos for a while will do you good.
And I'm going to agree with both of them - although perhaps not for the same reasons. As I read this latest round of truth, I kept thinking about how people fall into situations and more quickly than you might think, the situation they are in becomes normal to them. It's sort of like the nose blind thing people talk about. I used to remember going into all sorts of homes on 911 calls and the stench could knock you over from just outside the front door. Once inside it was all we could do to put up with the smell. Yet, the person or person's living there didn't even notice. They had gone nose blind. The exact same thing happens in Rs and clearly has happened in this one. Case in point - wondering why a married woman is not posting on social media about her engagement. Really? That's a head scratcher? See to me it's way, way more odd that a married woman is engaged. But I'm not nose blind.
The same comes up with sleeping until noon or into the afternoon. Who does that? At least unless you're not working 2nd or 3rd shift, who does that? Who leaves dog poop? Who leaves teenagers to live by themselves? I mean, just look at pretty much ALL OF IT!!!!! This is pretty off the rails crazy stuff. Yet we are often trying to make sense of it. Friends, you just can't make sense of nonsense. And I know I'm being very harsh again, but from outside - just like the smell that is as plain as your face - these things are so simple. Yet when in them, or when trying to help, it can be confusing and difficult. It's not. This is just not normal behavior - or at least behavior that most people would want to hitch their wagon to. So, yes, leaving for a few days or even weeks, and then coming back might give you a much need new perspective - just like when leaving the smelly house will allow things to right themselves whereby upon the return home, you say "OMG, what's that smell?" You need this reset Andrew.
((((Andrew))))
I'm teary eyed. Just want to cry for you.
There's so many things wrong with your relationship in your last post... no need to share my negative thoughts about them.
Yes, there are so many things wrong and they have all been there from the beginning. The good news (yes there is good news here) there is nothing keeping Andrew from ending it all. There are really no nasty financial ties, no job or work ties, no children ties, really none at all. If somehow S left tomorrow, it would be a pretty simple detachment. Sure, Andrew would feel bad for a time but I'm not even sure that's the case at this point other than longing for what was hoped was there but never really was. I think if we could wave a magic want and just make S go away, Andrew would likely feel a weight off of his shoulders. He might even be making Thanksgiving dinner and having his son over.
You can put an end to this Andrew. You really can. If a list were created noting all of the positives and all of the negatives, we'd need pages for the list of negatives and probably could write the positives in a few lines. So when Dream and others say "We're here for you" I think that needs to start meaning here to support you in getting out of this mess and getting your life back. We'll then go to work trying to prevent this from occurring a third time.
But, right now, there really is good news in this can all be undone relatively easily. That won't be the case with every passing month.
DonH that is exactly the reason I suggested Andrew get away for a short respite, because I hoped that by doing so he will come back into this with a fresh perspective and clarity that one often loses when in the think of it.
I'm sorry if I didn't make that more clear.
I agree with the others
You speak of her trying to find a way out or looking for an exit. You don’t have to wait for that. You should be doing the same. There is too much at stake here for you if you wait too long.
It’s ok for YOU to make the decision to exit because it’s not working.
Have a great brunch with S26 and the girls. So sad you had to give up the pets that you have always cared for when hers stay and she couldn’t care less about them.
I agree with taking a little trip. I know you can’t see your daughter because borders are closed. But a nice little trip to a quaint town you can walk around in, take in the sites, reflect, think and get some peace might give you some clarity. It’s hard to leave your own home, and I think part of you knows you will come home to an absolutely disaster, but that might be even more eye opening for you.
Thanks all. Yes - going to visit my daughter is a non-starter for a whole lot of practical reasons. I really wish I could. I've not seen her in over a year what with her moving cross-country, us having a falling-out for a few months, COVID. They are actually probably moving again in a month or so and "because military" I have no idea where to and actually I don't think they do either.
I really miss her. I mailed her down a parcel of Halloween candy though which will hopefully get through and not get counted as a mail-in ballot.
One thing that I've been doing perhaps is the common mistake of projecting. I am unhappy so I presume S is unhappy. I'd like to use my "make it didn't happen" wand and project that she's looking for the door. We actually can know none of these things despite the evidence that we see.
Yesterday I did actually go through and enunciate some of the reasons why I'm not happy. Some of them are necessarily vague - like losing my "spark", not able to do the things that used to bring me joy, a feeling of disrespect for me and the surroundings. When I mentioned that I was upset that the handmade quilt my grandmother had made for me 30+ years ago was pulled out and tossed onto a pile of S's stuff, her response was to say "it was still in the box". She just doesn't "get it" I am sure. I joked (I always joke) that I felt like Dobby the house elf a lot of the time. She responded that she doesn't know where my socks have gone
. I was glad that while we lay there and talked that she seemed to listen and didn't get obviously defensive and upset.
S has made suggestions since on "fixing" things as well as before. I could make a pie she suggested. She did say that we should spend a day together while I'm on vacation this coming week, perhaps recreating one of the dates we had wandering trails that we enjoyed so much. It was a really really good day.
I was joking with a friend the other day that in some ways this is like having a skunk under the back deck. They're kinda cute and you mean them well, but the stink can be a problem.
S has put in quite the effort in the last few days to get ready for her Dad to come up for Thanksgiving dinner. He keeps his house as neat as a new pin and it's what S grew up with. The living room rug has been found and I believe that various boxes and piles are being shifted around. S was going to shampoo the rugs but the machine had had enough and I believe blew an internal fuse. S woke me up to tell me and suggest that the shop-vac could get up the water. It was a good suggestion, worked reasonably well and she seemed pleased when I told her that she had done the exact right thing. As Don suggested, the noses won't notice the fragrance after a bit although I'm sure it was under a different context. I pointed out to the boys that their mother had worked hard on getting the living room clean and that it was to be left in a clean and tidy state at least until after Thanksgiving.
I could ramble on more and I really appreciate the love and support here even if at times it feels a bit over the top. From the inside it doesn't feel as bad as it looks from the outside.
I have to get S18 up though as he's got an extra and early for him shift at the grocery store he works at. Then off to do the banking and go see S26 for brunch. I may take the sheers and get some random roadside weeds to decorate the side porch as usual. S assures me that she has many boxes of autumn decorations but other than the usual wreath I use and 2 small pumpkins that S picked up and set on the steps (price tag still attached), nothing is up. It will make me feel good to decorate the entrance again as I've been doing since my ex-wife left. She never had any interest in doing much in the way of decorating.
Happy Thanksgiving to all my fellow Canadians! And have a great weekend all.
Happy Thanksgiving! I'm glad that you are going to spend time w/your son and the "girls".
I don't think S is unhappy at all. She's got it made. You get her son up and out the door for his job. You attempt to clean up, both the house and the dog poop, you are providing a roof over their heads and a food, you are providing storage for all of the boxes of stuff that they brought along and yes, an driver to take the kids wherever they need to go. She doesn't have to worry about paying the rent on time, keeping the noise level down or even cleaning up all that much. She and her clan moved in and brought along a freezer w/deceased animals in it. Now, really who does that? She pretty much does whatever the heck she wants and when you mentioned something, she cuts you off and gets snippy...maybe she's forgotten she's not married to you yet and that she is living in YOUR home. Seriously, what is there not to be happy about?
Andrew, I mentioned a page or two ago, as well as others have pointed out, it's time for you to take a trip for a few days away from the situation. I guarantee when you return, nothing will have been done to improve upon the mess that is there at this time. The only reason she's doing a little bit of cleaning now is because of her father coming to visit. Evidently, the only one that motivates her to clean is her father. That tells me that she is quite capable of cleaning and putting things away when she is pressed to do so. So, the key is to discover what truly motivates her to get out of that darn bed at a reasonable hour and get cracking on cleaning up? If it is something that truly interests her, she does it, If her father wasn't coming over, everything would have remained the same...
I don't like to judge people, but from what you've posted over the months, she has health issues, but I also think that she's used those issues to get out of doing stuff for many, many years, hence she's become a bit lazy in getting things done. She knows that you will eventually will go ahead and do the chores and she can sleep her day away and stay up all night texting and watching TV.
There is no shame in pulling the plug on this relationship. It's better to do it sooner rather than later.
Do your decorating outside. You've always enjoyed doing this. If you can get to your boat, bring it out and decorated it again this year. Do the things that make you happy. It is YOUR home...do what you need to do to make you happy.
She and her clan moved in and brought along a freezer w/deceased animals in it
Say WHAT???? How did I miss this part of the story????
She and her clan moved in and brought along a freezer w/deceased animals in it
Say WHAT???? How did I miss this part of the story????
I know....I thought I read it wrong in Andrew’s post a couple of weeks ago so I read it again.
I wasn’t.
She and her clan moved in and brought along a freezer w/deceased animals in it
Say WHAT???? How did I miss this part of the story????
I know....I thought I read it wrong in Andrew’s post a couple of weeks ago so I read it again.
I wasn’t.
to quote Vinzinnini "inconceivable"
I’m pretty sure I missed the deceased pets in a freezer.
Good lord. I would have had to draw the line there
Yep...dead pets in a freezer is a special kind of crazy. Run Andrew run!!!
Add me to the list of those who missed the freezer of dead pets. What the actual f@&k?!?!?!!! How did I miss that, but more importantly who the h3lllllll does that. And keep in mind this is from the person who twice a year has boxes of dead, preserved cats in boxes in my office until they go up to the anatomy lab for dissection. YIKES Andrew!
I’m guessing it was a “there’s no access to any place to bury them and no money for a pet cemetery so let’s save them until that magical day when we can bury them properly. “
Or else a really creepy aspect of hoarding.
I’d suggest the go out to Andrews brother’s property and bury them but then he would be putting his brother at risk of visits from this crazy woman. But I sure C.C. as he!! Wouldn’t be storing them at my house. Heck just dig a hole in the backyard before the ground freezes and bury them!
why can't they be buried at her dad's??
It always amuses me on how what seems minor to me gets picked up and noticed and then burns through multiple pages of my thread.
S's S18 who has a "lot" of anxiety issues had wee birds a few years ago - yes - these are long dead pets. When they died he couldn't face that or burying them or having them cremated so they were put into random boxes and tossed into one of two small chest freezers that S had. Now keep in mind that the way that these freezers - which were both full to the top despite S and the boys saying that they "had no food" - were used by whatever new stuff came in being just tossed and in many cases shoved in.
When she moved in, 75%+ of what was in the freezers was tossed. I saw the boxes just piled in with everything else, was told the story and because I didn't want to be looking for something and come across a dead bird, I built a plywood box that the three cardboard boxes fit in so that it could sit at the bottom of the freezer undisturbed. I also felt that would be more respectful of some critters that meant a lot to S18.
They are largely forgotten but do get mentioned from time to time - most recently in the context that S18 was feeling more confident of this being "home" and that it was safe to bury them here. They are right under the frozen pizzas that S18 uses for 80% of his sustenance.
The expectation has been that one day I'll dig a big enough hole to fit the plywood box and, with respect for the contents of the box and the boy who cares, they'll be respectfully given a permanent rest. Just one of several things that are in my head.
It doesn't really bother me much to have them in there especially with them safely contained.
----
Very chatty here which is good even if we are burning through the thread yet again. I'll have to send job another box of cookies soon by the looks of it to pay for a new one.
Thanksgiving day here. I went to bed early and S spent some time with me. Woken up early too. The "moonlight wanderer" dog started roaming around the bed at about 5:30 - I really don't like sleeping with pets on the bed but it is preferable to barking, scratching and do-do on the floor. The dog has always slept with S - and it would be cruel to stop that. S13 came in complaining he was cold (currently refusing to wear warm clothes) at about 7:00. It got crowded, the dog was needing to go out, so I got up, took the dog to the yard, fed S's cats, turned the heat up and made myself a breakfast.
I'd gotten the dishes done up before bed as usual so the counter was still clean. S had said that she would be spending the evening baking and preparing for Thanksgiving dinner. She didn't. I suppose I should nudge her soon. Her Dad is expected around 11:00 with the turkey. Her daughter will probably be around about then too.
Her D19 seems to have decided that the rules don't apply to her and appears to be driving with her BF across the country - last seen in Alberta I think. I expect they are fueling the car on love as neither of them have had a job other than D19's occasional modeling gigs in many months. This is a surprise to S who know nothing about this trip but she doesn't seem to concerned. Me, I'd be freaking out and on the phone - and not just because they have driven right past DnJ's house which is in a hot zone at the present I believe. So - we're not expecting them for dinner. More practically D19 has some pretty substantial savings that generally she refuses to touch so they can have funding that way. I have almost complete confidence that S isn't sending them money since this trip is a surprise to her and she continues to have no knowledge of where they are, where they are going, when / if they are coming back etc. D19 has suggested that she wants to live in British Columbia and she does have an uncle there. Maybe they're moving?
The day will turn out fine I am sure. S's D26 will undoubtedly pull a rabbit out of the hat and all will be fine. S is happy but also scared that her parent's fine china will be out. It was a good study in how we view things very differently. There were some very thin cups that S believes belonged to her great-grandmother in the pile. She is concerned about them being damaged because "they are very valuable" - my comment that there must be a lot of memories wasn't her point of view - it was that they were "valuable". Sigh. Are all women my ex-wife? I am attached to very few "things" and those that I am attached to are there because of the memories involved. People may be more ephemeral than things, but they are what matter to me.
------
I did have a really good day with my son yesterday. He - with some minor guidance from Dad - repaired the screen door to the balcony of his apartment. "The girls" (Liz actually came out for a bit of a petting) were very pleased as was S26. He felt good that this normal house-hold repair was now in his repertoire. He's been in the apartment since May and probably could have used that fresh air during the hot parts of the summer. I walked him through the process, held the screen in place and he did all the actual work. He was happy that I brought my splining tool as it does make screen installs much easier.
We had a nice lunch out as well. He gave me a set of spare keys to his apartment as a backup in case he gets locked out. He mentioned in passing that there were two sets cut - presumably the other for his mother.
We talked a fair bit. He's got an annoying co-worker and so vented about that but over-all it seems that he's pretty happy with his job and recognizes that the frustrations he has will exist no matter where he works. He's a bit of a perfectionist (wonder where he got that
) and co-workers who don't care about doing a good job bother him a lot.
We also talked about my own situation and I did ask about his prior warning. He said that he had told me that there was a lot of chaos around S - which I interpreted as her being a busy, active, whirlwind sort of person which I had actually thought would have been good to get me out of my rut. He had no comment about messy chaos so perhaps it is indeed a temporary thing as S keeps suggesting - although we all, including me doubt that.
I did mention that I thought that S would be pulling the plug - or not. He agreed with everyone that S does have it pretty good here and has no real reason to bail. And then gently pushed me that if I was unhappy that I also had the ability to end things. As is the case 99.5% of the time, he is absolutely right. It's funny - some decisions I can easily "just make". And others I waffle about for ever on. I can feel the answer within me. That I would be happier and healthier alone, possibly with a new feline buddy. I certainly would not want to have another partner which is a bit annoying as I quite liked being married. Having someone there who you can trust and lean on - albeit I've not had anyone who I can
really do that with. Being part of a team. I don't want to be the one who pulls the plug - I hate the idea of being "the bad guy" and know that it would be very hard especially on S18 (I don't think S13 will really notice). A mutual decision would be best. S does know that I'm unhappy and I have now told her to the best of my ability the reasons why. I think she's stepped up her game but I do agree that it is unlikely to be sustainable and that she will resent it.
I asked and S26 did confirm that he's going to be spending Thanksgiving with his mother. I asked him to tell her "Happy Thanksgiving" from me. A tough thing to let out and to ask. I think it pleased him and does show that I am continuing to grow and move on.
I did take time on my way home (S was texting - where are you) and picked up some wild grasses and such and did the usual decorating of my side porch. I think it looks nice and I'm glad that I did it. S complimented it as well. She has a lot of decorations but none have gone up. She thinks that she can talk her daughter into doing it when she comes over (yes yes - there's the pattern).
Well - on with my day. I want to get my breakfast dishes cleaned up so that S and her daughter have free reign in the kitchen. I won't be doing any of the cooking which will just weird for me after having done it for several years now on my own for my son and I. The hole that their absence leaves is still very palpable. S's critters are no replacement - annoyances if anything a lot of the time although the dog is indeed a sweetie who is extremely fond of me. The boys are just "there" - mess making roaming blobs and S herself is more a passing presence than a constant especially given our very different schedules and lifestyles.
But - from Me, and from my village here in Upper Lower Middle Kanukistan, a very Happy Thanksgiving to all. I know that despite my grumbling, that I have so very very much to be thankful for.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. I pray that the day turns out well and everyone can enjoy themselves. I also pray that everyone chips in and helps with the clean up and does not leave all of that to you.
I'm glad you were able to guide your son on repairing the screen and the girls now can enjoy some fresh air. I'm sure you miss your son and the girls. However, you can always escape the "clan" and go over to visit w/them for a while.
Take care and don't over do it today...try to relax.
happy thanksgiving.
no, not all women are your exw. some hold onto things because of the memories they evoke - I've worked hard to remedy holding onto the memories now rather than the things.
Yes, Andrew, I thought that's why you weren't pulling the plug - you don't want to be the bad guy. I'm offering you a different viewpoint today - that there is no good or bad in this situation, rather it is a matter of lifestyles being incompatible. What's that old adage - love is blind but living together is an eye-opener?
Are all women my ex-wife?
The question is, why are you picking people like your ex-wife?
There are an awful lot of women out there who aren’t hoarders or shopping addicts, who bend over backwards baking cookies for people and know how to stretch a budget. Who read and take care of their pets. (Ok I’m thinking of my sister as an example here but there are many women like her out there).
What is it about your past that makes you ignore these red flags? What was your family of origin like? Your relationship with your mom? Why do you believe you don’t deserve more?
It’s a challenge for all of us, to get to the root of bad patterns and stop repeating them.
So. I've made the decision to end it. This is incredibly tough and it will be on everyone.
I have largely figured out how to tell her, probably tomorrow and the rest is just logistics.
It is the right choice for me which feels selfish. I know that I have to not let what would be best for the boys and S interfere. They are on their own journey.
Now to actually do it. ((everyone))
So. I've made the decision to end it. This is incredibly tough and it will be on everyone.
I have largely figured out how to tell her, probably tomorrow and the rest is just logistics.
It is the right choice for me which feels selfish. I know that I have to not let what would be best for the boys and S interfere. They are on their own journey.
Now to actually do it. ((everyone))
This is no surprise to anyone, and I don’t think it will be a surprise to S. You and S are simply incompatible. I do feel for her boys but they are her responsibility.
You are doing the right thing, you know this. (((Andrew)))
(((((((Andrew)))))
I know this is really hard, but stick to your guns. This isn’t working for you, and now you have a much clearer picture of what you’re dealing with. There’s no need to go into details with her. It simply isn’t what you expected and she isn’t who you thought she was. End of story.
And if she tries to say “you’re just like all the others” remind yourself that you ARE probably like them, but not in the way she means. You, like them, realized she’s not going to change and that you were sold a bill of goods.
This decision is not selfish at all. You are doing the right thing here. Perhaps it was selfish to let it get this far but what’s done is done. You can only learn from it. You are not being selfish!
Why do I suspect something else just happened which has helped you come to this decision? And if that’s the case, it’s okay. But my fear is S is so good at this and you already feel guilty that she will try to manipulate you out of it. What really matters is what your family thinks, what your friends think, you son, your daughter and mostly YOU. It’s okay if S doesn’t agree. She likely won’t. That’s okay. Things should have never progressed this far this fast. You know that now and are just doing what should have been done right away.
S will be fine. Her kids have gone through this so many times they will not be the least bit surprised. Most importantly, you will be much better off. Be proud of yourself for making the tough decisions and following through on them.
Crap. I'm all over the place on this. I hope I can find it in me. A house full of happy people isn't reinforcing anything.
I really really hope I can do the right thing.
Happy people because they’re not having Thanksgiving in a hoarders house. Not your responsibility.
Remember - you thought you were getting a partner, someone who was going to start her own business, be capable of cleaning with your help, would support you and offer back to you what you put into the relationship.
Instead you got somebody unwilling or incapable of working, who doesn’t even attempt to adjust her hours to yours, who spends twice as many hours of the day watching television as dealing with her stuff, and who appears to be a classic hoarder. Who also doesn’t respect the household budget and seems content to live in this chaos. It’s just not a fit and it doesn’t need to be anything more than that.
Like I said - you thought things would be different and that she was a different person than the one you are living with now. End of story.
I know this is a very very hard thing to do. But you are making the absolute right decision.
And yeah, a house full of happy people on a holiday.
What comes after that?
They leave, no one cleans up, you’ll be cleaning, and she will be sleep until 12-1pm tomorrow, get up and do nothing productive with her day. Her pets will be your responsibility, her kids will be your responsibility.
She can’t even get up to drive her son to work. And good for that boy, he actually has a job he seems very dedicated to!
Happy people today, tomorrow will be another day where you are not happy:
Get your life back, Andrew. You can do it
((((Andrew))))
This is NOT a selfish decision. I can’t add anything the others haven’t already said but I agree with all of them. You’re sacrificing yourself to accommodate someone who isn’t even willing to pick dog poop up off your rug. Think about that! Sure it is a difficult choice but ending it does NOT make you the bad guy. It makes you a guy who is standing up for himself and taking his own life back. S will be fine and so will her kids because this is her pattern and their life. Hang tough, Andrew...you got this!
Andrew,
I don’t post much here. In fact I may have never even posted in your thread, but I read here and there. Just wanted to say good luck with what’s coming next. Looks to me like you’ve made a decision and I don’t think anyone here thinks it’s a selfish one. You have to put yourself first also, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Sending good thoughts
remember: there is no good or bad here, just two people whose lifestyles are incompatible.
And, if you want to you could always offer her S18 a place to stay until he is able to get out on his own.
Andrew, I commend you for coming to a decision, albeit one that's not easy. While I know telling her will be difficult, I think it would be incredibly selfish to keep the charade going by not ending it. That's just my opinion. Don't allow yourself to be manipulated. Not all endings have to be horrible.
I agree, there is nothing selfish about this. You are being kind to yourself.
And, if you want to you could always offer her S18 a place to stay until he is able to get out on his own.
While I know telling her will be difficult, I think it would be incredibly selfish to keep the charade going by not ending it. That's just my opinion.
I’m not so sure about having her kids stay with you post breakup. If this were some 4 year thing maybe, but they have been living there all of 4 months. It could be very messy and complicated for everyone. If he asks you, that’s perhaps something to consider but I would not offer.
Now on point #2, that’s a very good point. Yes, ending it may be difficult, but keeping a charade going is both wrong and unfair to both of you, but especially to S. It’s just not fair. It’s disingenuous and that’s not you, Andrew. Be honest and true including true to yourself. Letting her know is the honorable thing to do.
yes it could be but S seems to have an "out of sight out of mind" attitude towards her kids so, perhaps not ...
Andrew, remember that it's usually best to end things sooner rather than dragging things out, for all concerned.
So very difficult. So many easy to find reasons to not pull the plug.
I now have more sympathy for the leaving spouse.
I am very torn.
Probably time to lock this thread.
Wish me strength, compassion and courage.
Repost from my thread -- I also visited your thread as a result of you visiting mine and realized I had missed quite a few chapters. I don't know about this lady in your life, I wasn't following for a while, but I will say this-- a lot of us ended up in our MLC mess because we thought this was how things were, or that we shouldn't trust our guts. I think we have to start trusting our guts. Hurting someone is painful, and I am very sorry for her if she loves you and will be hurt. But for myself I have found that part of my healing was learning to trust my gut. If I had done that long ago, I would not have married my H to begin with. (I don't regret it exactly, glad for my kids and how this brought me to faith. But I can see that I didn't trust my gut, and that I still struggle to.)
I will say one thing about her son -- when I was a child of divorce, it was the idea that I was expected to bond and then unbond with each guy and his family that really drove me into a rage and a wound. I still struggle with that with my stepfamily and I am almost 50! So I agree with bttrfly. If her S came to trust and care for you, I think you should make it clear to him that you can be an adult he can rely on when he needs it. That can make or break a kid.
Andrew, I wish you courage, strength and compassion today. It doesn't have to be ugly. It does have to be honest and in integrity with who you are and what you want in your life.
It's ok, and it will be ok.
Have faith. Do the next right thing.
New thread
Where's the banana
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2905536&#Post2905536I can't today. I just can't. Other than when I gave up on my marriage and my wife, I've not faced anything this hard to do before.
Thank you all so very much for your love and support. I do know that this is the right choice for me. While I continue to be confident that this is the right choice, putting it into action is currently beyond me. When S came to bed last night around 2:00 she was on her phone - as is often the case. Was she reading here? I don't know. The odds, while non-zero are low. She seemed very off but that could perhaps be explained by a physically very very difficult day for her.
Thanksgiving dinner was pulled off and was a success. S did pretty much all the work, preparing food for about 20. There were 7 here but serving sizes aren't something that she is good at. The boys were assigned simple tasks like sweeping etc that never got done. I was of course in a weird mood through the day.
Her Dad and I spent a lot of time chatting about politics, business etc. For some reason I usually end up in "old guy corner". Like my former father-in-law and other older men at family gatherings, he was largely ignored as people bustled around. He was very happy to be here and really enjoyed spending time with his offspring, especially his wee great-grandson.
S's daughter helped make up a nice lunch of cold meats, cheese etc. I was up in the office catching up on book-work and staying out of the way when I heard the sound of cutlery and laughter. When I went down, there was no place for me to sit. S said that she thought I was "still outside" - a place I hadn't gone. I went for a walk which is I think when I posted my intention to leave. Not out of anger or grumpiness, but because the decision had gelled that it needed to be made and that I was the one to make it.
We all - other than the boys - went for a nice walk in the afternoon through the park and S and I were hand in hand. I both felt horrible but also connected to her and remembering why and how I do love her. It is possible I suppose to like and love someone but be unable to live with them.
S was so very very happy to be using her grandmother's china for dinner. I don't think it's been something she's been able to do on her own and it's been 10 years I think since her mother passed. I carved the turkey which was weird for me as it is such a massive bird and shaped much differently than a duck. S roasted it belly up vs breast up which I would normally do so there was some confusion there.
The toast was to "family" as you would imagine which made me sad that my own children aren't part of my own Thanksgiving. I still can't think of S's family as "mine". I don't think that S really "gets" it on how I feel.
S13 as is often the case refused to eat pretty much anything and complained loudly and a lot about it and only spent a small amount of time at the table. He did eat a piece of pumpkin pie with whipped cream. The kid is skeletal thin. S18 though has similar issues and said that much of the time he just doesn't think to eat nor want to eat until the pain in his stomach reminds him. Even then he has no hunger. He does eat regularly though but very little and generally only frozen pizza that he makes himself.
I went to bed at about 9:00 - exhausted. I did suggest that I would start working on the dishes the next day and yep - this morning - after I cleaned up the dog do-do from the rug, there was everything pretty much still out including a lot of the food sitting out uncovered. The turkey carcass at least had been covered and put in the fridge. I'm not sure if S is intending to make a stock from it. I'd mentioned that was something I would normally do which struck her as odd. Not sure if that will be my task or not. I'd heard some clattering and voices in the kitchen after I went to bed, but my optimism was mis-placed.
I know that I've made the right choice. I know that S isn't going to fundamentally change who she is. People don't. I suspect that like when I made the choice to terminate my marriage that it will need to be that one big thing that pushes me over the edge. A confirmation of what I already know that is so egregious that there is no turning back and no disputing. Or I need to pull up my big-girl panties and do what is right. As some have rightly suggested, delay does no-one any good.
On towards new horizons. And trying to find bananas. There is a lot of clean-up to be done today and it will be all me. S very much over did it yesterday and I could see her back spasming fairly frequently towards the end of the dinner when she was just passing plates. I don't look badly on her for the state of the kitchen as she would have been physically unable to deal with such an undertaking. As is the case with her, it was something far more ambitious than she is capable of and is incomplete.
Thank you all so very very much for your kindness and support. And hopefully patience as this does indeed drag out. I have at least taken ownership of the matter rather than waiting for others to act. A vitally important step. And I'm indebted to my son for so very clearly and kindly enunciating that to me on Saturday which was indeed the catalyst.