My Previous ThreadI know it had to be close to time for a new thread - even though due to length I'm sure I'm still short of 100. Whatever, I figured I needed a new title anyhow - sort of the theme to start out with.
I in some ways hate to admit it, but I'm getting back to what I'd say was my "normal" self - or at least the self I am most happy being. I don't hate to admit that I'm getting back there - but hate a bit to admit that Wild Girl is a part of why - perhaps a big part of why. I really was and am happy by myself but I'd be lying if I didn't admit the past couple of months have been A LOT of fun! I'm feeling like I used to - much more confident, much more outgoing, just happier. It has been a needed confidence boost. Of course at this point I'm getting only the good parts of this budding R - no real downside. We all know the honeymoon phase doesn't last forever.
Not all too much to report on WG. I've not seen her since a week ago and our last phone conversation was this past Thursday night. I just got done last last night with a somewhat unprecedented seven gigs over the last five days. I'm sure I put on nearly 750 miles or at least close???, but I'm not as worn out as I thought I might be. WG's mother had a milestone birthday on Friday so I got the band to sing happy birthday to her on a short video that WG delivered at a family gathering. I think I got some major points for that! We've texted since but with me being busy that's been very light as well. I do have to say that she is perfectly great at doing her own thing. She's not said one word about the fact that I've gotten busy. She went to a friends house yesterday and out to a waterpark with female family today - just the girls.
I ran into her aunt - this is the lady I've known for 25 years - on Thursday. She said next to nothing about me seeing Wild Girl. I brought it up as WG texted just as I was speaking with her aunt. Makes me wonder, however... was she just being respectful and not prying? Why did I almost get the sense that if she didn't feel in the middle or this being family, she might try to warn me??? Is that just me? I really did get that feeling though as she is often somewhat outspoken and honest/blunt. Even when I brought up a previous event that I went to WG's house afterwards, she nearly ignored the comment. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all? Just got that feeling. Interesting.
I also can sense WG needs a bit of distance again. This is clearly a pattern every time we get a little closer, she needs to take a step back. It's getting more obvious to me. We made some plans for a month from now with her suggesting we "hang out" for three days. I've purchased the tickets, so it's set. We also talked about some other future plans. Later in Thursday's conversation she expressed how she feels lucky that she is getting to know me, I would have to imagine her parents and others at the birthday party Friday commented that this guy (me) would take the time to create and send a happy birthday video for her mom. Of course the guys in the band then started asking more about her as well - given what I asked them to do. They all think I should have asked her to go on the cruise by now - especially after seeing her picture, but it's been "only" 2 months - a little less than, actually. To me that is hardly nothing. Not sure everyone sees things the way I do.
So, we will see how this week goes. It sounds like her parents, aunt and certainly many of my friends will be at our state fair a week from today. We perform there for several days. I think Wild Girl and her daughters may come as well - though still just talking about it. I know someone will let it slip about the cruise so I may at least talk with her about it prior - just like I warned her that the band leader will likely call her my girlfriend - it's just some of the banter we do from the stage - anyone female who knows someone in the band or requests a song, etc., becomes one of our "girlfriends" - it's a little bit flirty and makes them feel important - no matter if they are 10 or 90.
Anyhow, my point is, I'm still very surprised that I may have found someone as cautious and slow moving as I am - or is it just an act on her part? May be a little bit of both? I too tend to need to take a step back or have a little space if things start getting closer quickly. In this case, she's doing it for us - which I have little doubt is keeping my interest. If she were not, what might I be saying here to everyone? Hey, I admit it - I am who I am and I move very slow and am very cautious - with EVERYTHING I DO - it's not just women, it's business, friendships, etc. Yet, I'm already more interested in WG than I ever thought I would be. I even admitted that to her. I never thought when I pursued her a couple of months ago at that event that we'd become intimate (sexually) and be communicating and getting together as much as we have. Then again, since it's been nearly 5 years... I'd say I'm past due.
I'll close with this, it's amazing how Wild Girl's actions are keeping me engaged and building my interest. If she were getting clingy or weird by now, if she were all "You have to work, I really want to see you, I really miss you." at least at this point I'd be cautious. Instead, she just goes about her life. If I text, she responds pretty quickly or calls or whatever but she just lives her life and acts like she is very confident with or without me. It's a very attractive quality and is keeping my interest. I'm trying not to worry about the red flags, the age, or anything else and just going with it as I'm clearly enjoying it. And that's something that sort of hit me a week or two back... I think a lot of this comes down to how Wild Girl makes me feel. She's just a lot of fun, I'm super comfortable and totally myself with her, but she makes me feel good... makes me feel like my old self. That's something that many of the others did not do. Yeah, she's still outside of my typical box and there are some potential downsides, but it's still a nice feeling. Hopefully it stays that way - for both of us.
If she were getting clingy or weird by now, if she were all "You have to work, I really want to see you, I really miss you." at least at this point I'd be cautious. Instead, she just goes about her life. If I text, she responds pretty quickly or calls or whatever but she just lives her life and acts like she is very confident with or without me. It's a very attractive quality and is keeping my interest.
Good advice for all of us dating!
CMM is totally besotted with me and it's a fine line. I'm enjoying the relationship and getting to know him - but feel like he's run on ahead a few blocks. I do understand that it's largely because we just started at different places: he was more than ready to get into a monogamous relationship and find his "last love", I was a little bit traumatized and just dipping my toe back into the dating pool when we met. Also, he's an extrovert who would love to spend tons of time with me while my introvert self needs some space. The good thing though is he's very receptive to talking about it and willing to give me space when I ask for it. And to be fair, he is very good company and he speaks my love languages.
It's just that, as someone who myself is often the pursuer, it's interesting to be on this end of things and see how too much enthusiasm too soon could easily put off someone who otherwise would be interested. (Not that CMM is putting me off, but if I were more of an Avoidant type it would definitely be a problem.)
I don't typically come here just to "journal" but if I did, this might be under the title of "journaling" from me. LOL. As I am starting off the third month getting to know Wild Girl, it's again interesting how things develop and you get to know someone. I had my original presumptions about her and some have proved to be correct while others I was wrong about. It's now been about 10 or 11 days since I've last seen her. I was very busy this past weekend plus a few days prior and she had other things to do as well. Now so far this week we've talked on the phone at least an hour each night. She's continuing her keeping her distance thing, or perhaps it's more a keeping her walls up thing, yet most of the time she is the one reaching out to me - which I'm fine with. It is interesting, however, how she almost wants to not see me for a couple of weeks yet wants daily contact and enjoys talking for hours with me.
We have several day plans in a few weeks after she gets back from a family vacation and I get back from a very fun festival road trip. I'm sure they will happen. Her parents, aunt and others will all be coming to see the band I'm with this coming Monday at our state fair. Will she? Hard to say and I'm just leaving it at that with her. She may be trying to surprise me - not sure. I off handily invited her to come along on this weekend's overnight trip to a casino but she said she had to work on Sunday. True statement but it's a two hour thing that I know she could get out of if she wanted to. She is clearly struggling with something. I thought it was the age difference, and might be. I also thought it was that she's not had a healthy R with a "boyfriend" type person in a long time. She even says she's very independent and clearly is. She's obviously still interested - but clearly cautious of anything getting even remotely serious. All of these things are again totally fine with me - if not what I'm looking for.
What really caught me, however, is a conversation she relayed a few days ago about her D15. This D is more reserved, not nearly as outgoing as D17 who is much like her mom. However, D15 told Wild Girl she is worried about her. Wait for this... she thinks her mom (Wild Girl) is drinking too much! I just listened and validated. However, wow, interesting observation from her D15. She's most worried, she said, because she's already lost her dad to alcoholism and other bad traits and she doesn't want to lose her mom either. However, it was the rest of the conversation that really caught me. WG has said before how she struggles with anxiety. It effects her sleep and I'm really wondering now if that's not also effecting her behavior as well. I've seen this pattern of wanting to see me but then is not sure. Is that the anxiety? More over, is she self medicating this with alcohol? I really wonder. I brought up the suggestion of ever considering medication - not additive types like Xanax or something but there are others out there, Zoloft for example, that can actually work well.
I may be as wrong about this as I was about a few other things. However, like with two weeks ago and her "still debating" if she wanted to come out to see me, then after she did, having a really great time and being by her own admission very relaxed with me the following day, You all may recall that on that day she didn't drink at all - even though I did a little. Hmmmmmm, felt really calm and doesn't drink. When anxiety kicks in, or can't sleep, self medicate? I'm not her psychiatrist and don't want to be. I'm just continuing to watch all of this.
The rest is still fine with me. It's nice to have someone who asks about my day, just wants to chat, tells me what she is up to. Some of the little things continue to hit me as well, for example, a few days ago she kept texting that her volleyball team "one the first game" I figured it was just a typo until she let me know they "one the second game" as well. Yeah, I know, let it go Don, but I do notice things like this - whether I should or not! I did not, however, say a word about it - I just let it go. LOL.
I'll continue to update or "journal" here as whatever this is continues to unfold. It's looking more and more like the cruise discussion will happen in a few weeks during our three day "hang out." LOL - she still doesn't want to call it a "date." Whatever is going on or whatever she is doing, she's clearly still keeping my attention. I would have thought for sure by now I'd start to feel pressured or pushed for more, and if anything I'm interesting in more than she is - at least with in person contact. She's clearly not looking for other guys, however. At least I really get that feeling. She even goes out of her way to let me know that.
I'll have more as it happens or early next week.
However, D15 told Wild Girl she is worried about her. Wait for this... she thinks her mom (Wild Girl) is drinking too much!
Ok - I stand by my initial assessment! Even her daughter thinks she drinks too much. What was Wild Girl's response to this?
As to the business of one versus won: it is always possible that she was dictating the text. Isn't it? Bad grammar and spelling really bother me but I've loosened up a bit in this age of autocorrect.
For what it's worth, it seems like your both enjoying it for what it is, keep it going and enjoy each other as long as it lasts (not implying it's time limited)... Enjoy your cruise
Even her daughter thinks she drinks too much. What was Wild Girl's response to this?.
I could tell she took it seriously but then also tried to explain it away - including her being a 15 yr/o and also stating that her 17 yr/o isn't worried at all. I also find it interesting how she is critical of people who drink too much. She talks about her exH as a total falling down drunk and says nearly the same about one of her brothers. She claims she "knows when to stop" which is I guess true as her behavior is not adversely effected other than the last time with the shots in the bar where she readily admitted she had too much to drink.
I see this very thing with a keyboard player I do a lot of gigs with. He has huge family history with his father but he too looks at how his father was clearly an alcoholic - would miss work, be held up in his house for days drinking, etc. Because he doesn't do any of those things he doesn't consider himself an alcoholic. However, some others do and he meets at least some of the criteria. I know someone else that can drink like Wild Girl does but I'd not consider her an alcoholic either as it does not effect her life negatively - which is often one of the criteria. It's the same with Wild Girl. I've never seen it effect her in like missing work, no DUIs in fact she is very, very cautious about drinking and driving. Some people get really mean, angry, have outbursts, their behavior and personality completely changes. That's not WG - she's the same when she wakes up in the morning as she is after a bunch of beers. She meets all of her obligations with the kids, etc. So her behavior is not negatively effected by her drinking - still she is high enough on the suspicion index - at least for me - to be cognoscente of it. If nothing else, I think she's unaware that she might be farther up the scale than she thinks she is. That's the case with many with addiction - admitting it is often the hardest part. I'm just saying, it's NOT at all a clear cut case. In fact, other than I am able to count - if I didn't count or know the consumption amount, I'd not even consider it. The other indicators are not there - it's just amount and perhaps frequency.
For what it's worth, it seems like your both enjoying it for what it is, keep it going and enjoy each other as long as it lasts (not implying it's time limited)... Enjoy your cruise
I'm going on the cruise either way. We'll see if WG wants to as well. It is interesting how people's behaviors change. Earlier on she was telling me how she was excited to get together, etc. but was still cautious of not being too excited. Lately, she's been more as if trying to tell me she won't see me for awhile - as if to prove something - like she can go multiple weeks without seeing me - even though we are still talking everyday. She's still not committed to this coming Monday and I'm not bringing it up again. Honestly i'll be disappointed if her parents, her aunt, some of her friends show up and she does not. Sensing her need for space, I've completely not contacted her much if at all this week - but I'll always respond. So what happens, I don't reach out and of course she does. Last night it was getting late and my phone rings. Again, for someone trying to play it cool and not be all that interested, she's certainly doing a lot of thinking about me, talking with friends and co-workers - one of which invited WG and I to do something this Saturday (I'm busy) and then calling last night and admitting she missed me. So far she's initiated contact Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.
It's again all fine with me. I continue to wonder if I'd be shutting down if she were constantly saying "I can't wait to see you this (fill in the blank)" or "I miss you so much", etc. Her words sort of say one thing while her actions say another. Who is really not that interested but then calling and texting several times a day? The two don't add up. Either way, I'm enjoying it because it really all is very casual in nature. The more it goes the more my initial thought that this is just a fun fling is reinforced. But beyond a few red flags (like the drinking) on balance there really is not a lot of concern and she always treats me well - as I do her. In fact, we've not really had an argument of any sort and that's not from lack of discussing lots of subjects and being together I'd say about 100 hours now. That says something as well I guess. So we'll see what happens this weekend as I'll be parking 10 minutes from Wild Girl's house to meet up with another band member and his wife this weekend. I'm guessing she wants to try to surprise me on Monday - perhaps the "surprise" will be she does something else? Then she leaves for her vacation a week from tomorrow and I leave for a really fun festival in Michigan a few days later. We both return the following Sunday and will be together until Tuesday night.
I do have to say, I like this way better than trying to find new women to date, going out once or twice and starting the process all over again. I will admit, I've missed this (whatever "this" is) more than I knew.
Don, it's really interesting reading your thread.
I have to admit though, I find it hard to read about the drinking part without my own experience of having been close to a heavy drinker/alcoholic.
A couple of things stood out to me from what you said here:
'That's the case with many with addiction - admitting it is often the hardest part. I'm just saying, it's NOT at all a clear cut case. In fact, other than I am able to count - if I didn't count or know the consumption amount, I'd not even consider it. The other indicators are not there - it's just amount and perhaps frequency.'
I think before even admitting it as an issue, comes the possibility of even just seeing it as an issue. My XH never even saw that his drinking was a potential issue. He just saw it as totally normal. And he refused to budge from that viewpoint.
Speaking from my experience, I learnt that it's never really a clear cut case. And that was as much to do with my own ideas and perceptions (and prejudices) of what an 'alcoholic' was/is as much as anything else.
One of the turning points in finding a different perspective was hearing one of his work colleagues say to me 'I mean, we all know how much he drinks'. I had noticed it, pointed out to him that it was an issue for me for years, in the way it was impacting our R and in the future would impact on his health. But he had always brushed it off/ignored me/carried on as previously.
Now, I'll say straight away, that from my perspective, at the time, the amount he drank and frequency of it didn't seem to impact on his work whatsoever. He was extremely, extremely good at what he did and incredibly successful at his job and very well known too on a national (and even international) l level. I was lucky to ride on the coat tails of that success, personally, financially, and possibly professionally as well.
Everyone knew who he was and what he'd done. You could go out and have the most amazing evening...he was the life and soul of any place whenever we went out (and that was a lot). Even places where when he walked in, he didn't know anyone. By the end of the evening, he would have chatted to everyone there and befriended everyone as well.
It wasn't until after everything fell apart that a couple of older people in the industry told me briefly about how his drinking affected his working life. And it really shocked me.
So, you'd think that spouse of 15 years would know pretty much everything there was to know about their partner. But some of the things I learnt about his behaviour around and as a result of alcohol afterwards really shocked me. And it tied in with the gut feeling that I'd had, and which I'd brushed off for so many years (for various reasons: cultural, over sensitivity on my part, personality differences, a live and let live attitude on my part...whatever the reason).
The thing I've taken away from it all though, was that I was always second place to alcohol in our R. That came first and was the thing that marked the boundaries of our R. Not in any obvious way, but in a very, very slowly, undermining, self esteem eroding process that took years and years. We were in a R for 18 years and M for 15.
Sorry if my really is a bit on the short and curt side, I'm just about to get up for work but wanted to write something anyway. And please do feel free to ignore some/most of what I say. I'm obviously hyper sensitive to issues around alcohol.
PS, happy to chat more about it, if you're interested.
I am going to chime in. My ex did not fit in with the classic portrayal of an addict or drug abuser. He was/is high functioning. He is great at his job. Highly educated. Very smart. His friends are all law enforcement!
Yet he was drinking in secret. I know this only from 5 years of credit card statements. I suspect drugs because of weird habits i never noticed till i learned the signs (constantly purchasing immodium, always running errands that made no sense) and saw the cash withdrawals from bad neighborhoods.
I appreciate your story Focuss - I'm just not sure how it relates to me?????? I know that anyone who has had to go through living with an addict is scared by and from it. However, I don't think I'm even close to that here - other than my own personal history with opioid addiction - now in remission for coming up on 9 years.
Anyhow, I wanted to get another update for those who have been enjoying following along. I've got a busy month going here and it's amazing how hard it is to get back into the swing of things after being "lazy" for many months LOL. Anyhow, I had a great time on my weekend trip. Texted a bit with Wild Girl on the way up there (5 hour drive) which was nice as it made it go faster. I was the 7th wheel with three couples. I did wish WG would have went along but I'm so used to being without a "date" on these things that it's more comfortable being the 3rd or 5th or 7th wheel than had she come with me. Didn't talk much on Sunday and then gave her a quick call late Sunday night as I was in my last hour of my drive home. She was not in a talkative mood and just told me so - which I just said okay, we'll talk later have a nice night. It didn't bother me and I appreciated the honesty.
Of course then first thing Monday morning I get a wake up text - knew I would LOL. At this point she's still trying to play it that she's not coming with her family to the state fair. I was pretty sure, she just wanted to surprise me but I also admit (to you guys) I'd have been disappointed if she didn't and would wonder why. Well, she actually beat me there so that was a surprise as I walked in for sound check a full hour prior to our first set and she was there with her parents. So it was a nice sorta "surprise," and I thanked her for coming. After our performance WG and I went off to explore the fair while her parents went off someplace else. We met up with other friends of hers - who all seemed to know of me. Hmmmmm interesting. Her parents are in their early 70s and still in very good shape - both look much younger - but by about 6 PM they were looking to go so I told her I'm happy to take her home. Remember she lives a little over an hour from me. She really didn't want me to have to do that but I certainly didn't mind so that's what we made plans for. We were both so glad that we did as we had a really great time doing all sorts of things. The group of her friends had to go to the grandstand show so for the last 4 hours it was just her and I. We finally left by about 11 PM, getting back to her house by a little after midnight. She offered to sleep on the couch and have me take her bed as her girls were home - even though both were asleep on different floors of the house. Still I just elected to go back home. I didn't want to put her out, she had work early Tuesday anyhow and I didn't want the girls to feel awkward with me being there so that's what we did and it was an easy decision on my part.
So she met some of my friends while many others saw us together. She also posted a bunch of photos on social media. I made the comment that I guess she is now on the radar. Oddly, it's still not bothering me. Everything was very natural and fun - and no, she didn't drink all that much - at least for 12 hours at a state fair.
But now for some insight. I really have not been "over-thinking" this at all - in fact, not even thinking much about it. All of my actions have been natural or even like as if guided on auto-pilot. I'm just going with it. So Saturday night I had a discussion with the keyboard player about a bunch of things as he and I were at the bar having a few drinks while others were out gambling at the casino we were staying and performing at. I've known him since I was 15 and he was 17 (we are now 55 and 57) We talked about Wild Girl - including the cruise date thing. He was giving me crap about how Relationship avoidant I am. I told him that she's just as much or more that way than I am. "I think she's just saying that for your benefit so you don't doing running for the hills" was his response. Hmmmmm, is he correct? For someone trying to be so casual and saying we are doing nothing more than "hanging out", her friends and family all know of me, we talk everyday, she acted like a girlfriend at the fair, met my friends, posted pictures of us. OMG, is he right? So as WG and I were talking on Tuesday night, which included how much fun she had, I brought this comment up - and she didn't have any defense for it nor try to deny it. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Am I being played like an instrument here? I don't mean that in a bad way but as I get to know her more... For example, I made the criticism of how her education is below that of others I've dated. However, her street smarts and people sense is beyond mine - and I'm a great judge of people. Of those she met, her initial impression of them was dead on as she would say "She seems like, blah, blah, blah" and dang if she is not 100% correct. She is so outgoing, warm and friendly that she made a great first impression on my friends. So my thought is, has she picked up on me and she really is just telling me what I want to hear? I think it's a good chance she has - but I still don't feel the need to distance or run. Perhaps that's because we are still only seeing each other every couple of weeks. It's also because I'm not feeling any anxiety or "bad" feelings inside. It's not like I've set out with others to distance, it just sort of happens when I feel pressured or cornered. I wonder if this relates back to me ExW???
So I've decided I will have the cruise discussion the following weekend after we both return from our trips. I'll see one of the main promoters right before so the timing is right. I again feel it as if I'm guided on auto-pilot. Until now I thought it was too soon but I know enough about her to know she will not embarrass me. She will get along great with my friends, she is very understanding and easy going about the fact that I'm working. In fact, even as we start to get to 3 months, we've still not had a disagreement or gotten into an argument with her. She's extremely honest about everything and I know that I get more upset when I'm lied to than about whatever the truth is. That might be part of why. There have been times I was turned off or put off by her but we've not like argued and certainly not had a "fight" about anything. She totally does not sweat the small stuff and has talked often about how upsetting she finds it when her friends btch and complain about their spouse or BF. She's very independent and will not take disrespect but is as sarcastic as I am and really doesn't let the small stuff get to her.
I thought for sure by now I'd be getting sick of her yet I find myself looking forward to the next time I'll see her. She even said something similar the other night - something like, "I'll bet you didn't think you'd still be hanging out with me this long." This time I could not disagree. I'm most fascinated by how all of this just came about. I didn't try to do this or that and certainly did not over-think it - at least I don't think I did. I just lived. I was just me and as I've said, acted as if almost on auto-pilot. Of course, since my last R was over 5 years ago... I guess it could be said that it's about time I date someone more than 5 times. LOL
Two in town gigs this weekend then I leave for Michigan next week Wednesday. If anything noteworthy happens I'll let you all know. Otherwise I'm just trying to keep my story going along here. Huh, I can say without any doubt that telling this story is much, much more fun than the story I was telling about 13 years ago after the bomb had been dropped on me! LOL
I appreciate your story Focuss - I'm just not sure how it relates to me?????? I know that anyone who has had to go through living with an addict is scared by and from it. However, I don't think I'm even close to that here - other than my own personal history with opioid addiction - now in remission for coming up on 9 years.
Apologies for not explaining better, I'm a bit zonked...working two jobs in two different cities this month, so I'm pretty tired.
I think you mentioned some red flags, and comments that other people had made, and also talked about how easy things seemed to be? Did I remember that rightly?
That resonated with me. Of course, when I met XH, he didn't have 'alcoholic' tattooed across his forehead, and neither of us were thinking about M at the time. We just seemed to have such a good time together, and I was flattered by his attention. Before long, all his friends knew about me, and welcomed me into the fold like and old friend. I felt very accepted and very much at ease with all of his friends. I was super easy going, very go with the flow and just seeing how things were unfolding and enjoying myself.
At this point we were just going out (a lot) and having a good time. He seemed incredibly socially at ease with everyone he met, straight off, and would be the life and soul of the party whenever we went out. All of my friends were charmed by his extrovert nature. Then before long, two years had passed like this. I met his parents, the rest of his family, he met mine, all that kind of stuff. We never fell out over anything, argued or disagreed.
We were both young, so I thought that his drinking was because of this - a hangover from student days if you like. And I thought that he would somehow, at some point 'grow out of it' and become more of an adult...more responsible. Of course, he never really did. And it got to the point where other people pointed out how much he drank and how irresponsible he was/could be. This was years later though.
And the never disagreeing, or arguing, or falling out over things was also to do with being conflict avoidant (both of us) as much as being live and let live and easy going. Neither of us ever really learnt to talk about our feelings. Well, I mentioned how his drinking would affect me, but he just carried on as before and we never really learnt to talk about these things in an adult, constructive way (even if it meant agreeing to disagree). So you could say he was very selfish in that way, refusing to even consider another point of view than his own. But that's the benefit of hindsight.
Does that make more sense?
Well, ya know it had to happen sooner or later... In a recent post I spoke about how Wild Girl and I have not yet even had a disagreement or argument/fight... I think that run came to an end on Friday - although I don't think it's that simple. Of course what I'm about to say has to include mind reading to a degree but I've also now seen her enough and gotten to know her enough over about 10 weeks to start seeing patterns. As I've always said, it's patterns and trends that I pay attention to.
So, what happened? I'm not totally certain. We had a great time last Monday as we were at our State Fair. I performed and was "working" for about 5 hours but then from about 4 PM to 11 PM we hung out and had a great time. I took her home and all was well. She said I could stay but I elected to go back home since the girls were sleeping and she had work early in the morning. She hugly thanked me for taking her all the way home (if you know what I mean) and all was good.
Thing is, while at the fair, she met some of my friends. I hung out with some of hers for several hours including her parents, aunt, etc. In the days that followed, both of us got a lot of feedback. A few of my female friends (who are going on the cruise) sent her friend requests on Facebook. Others told me how much they liked her. She got the same. Her friends we hung out with really liked me and told her so. Her mom then told a good friend of hers how happy she is that her daughter is dating me. My friends have decided she is going on the cruise whether I've decided or not. She is way a lot of fun - there is no two ways about it so from their view it's just another totally fun girl to hang out with. I just really get the feeling this again has scared her. Her mom saying she's so happy she's "dating" me when she's trying to play it off as we are casual friends who hang out, etc. I think she's feeling pressured and scared.
So, again what happened Friday? Well, she again called me Wednesday night, Thursday night and again Friday night - not me - HER. I could tell something was "off" right away on Friday. She was snippy, back to "I'm not sure about Sunday, plans might change" - you may remember she's pulled this several times now - seems to get really nervous and needs an out. By her own admission she has anxiety so I try to understand it. She then said something that I misunderstood and as honest as I can be, I may have said something insensitive - but not at all on purpose. Her tone immediately changed, she got very quiet and said "that was really rude" I'm like, oh, no that's not what I meant. But she was not having it. Now was this something to the level that went on with Ginger the same night and I'm just not getting it? Yeah, I guess it could be. She's just never acted this way. She after a minute of this said "I'll call you back". Of course that never happened. I sent a text again apologizing and saying that I may have blurted out something that I should not have but in no way meant it the way it was taken. I also suggested that she should know I've never said or done something to be mean or hurt someone, why would I now out of the blue?
I believe with all of my being she manufactured this because she needed distance. I swear it's the case. Things are going too good, everyone is saying so and she's not used to this at all. Remember right at the beginning I said I thought she was "broken"? This is what I meant. I left her alone on Saturday and did not hear anything. I can't remember if she texted me or me her on Sunday. We had a few exchanges with her giving me one or two words. "Yes", "Early" etc. I'm like, ya know, I'm way too old for this BS and I'm not playing these passive aggressive games so I just disengaged. Four hours later here come some pictures of a band friend of mine that was performing at an event a mile from her house. Then normal texts again with detail. She was leaving for family vacation "early" today with her daughters, parents, and other family. She will be gone until Saturday and I'll be leaving tomorrow or Wednesday. Might be good timing.
It's the pattern of this that bothers me the most. I'd say this is the third time she's felt the need to distance like this but the first time she picked a fight to do it. That said, I almost felt like she was trying to pick a fight with me a month ago - as in nearly 30 days to the day. Anyone see where I'm going with this? Things ended up fine but when she got home both of her daughters said she was really crabby. Do not flame me girls but is this PMS? I know you all hate it when guys call out behavior like this over PMS but I've had at least one GF a long, long time ago that I knew her cycle better than she did just by her behavior. And yes, she is right in the window for it - warning me about next Sunday.
So I'm just dropping back this week and will let her come to me. We are supposed to be together this coming Sunday, Monday and Tuesday including tickets to an event on Monday. She was already hedging on the Sunday, saying her vacation plans could change and they might stay longer. I would hope she's not going to bail on everything. If she does that might be it for me. I can live with no Sunday but I'm not burning over $100 in tickets for a slight disagreement that I've apologized for at least three times now.
Sadly, it makes me think, THIS is EXACTLY why I've not had a GF in so long. I hate this crap and really am too old for it. Just be honest with me or perhaps moreso with yourself. I know I can't know for sure but I am sooooo confident that I'm correct in my assessment about what is going on here. Now, that said, perhaps I was getting too attached as well - much on her lead. Again, it's not me calling daily, suggesting things like the three days this coming Sunday-Tuesday - it was HER idea. Yet, I am excited to see her and tell her so. Usually I'm the one needing distance - perhaps my comfort has come across as too desperate or needy or interested? Or is reality hitting her in the face and she's not ready for it? I also think she's not totally over the guy she was in love with her went back to his wife. Their baby is due anytime now. Or perhaps the baby arrived??????????? As for me she's constantly said that pretty much everything fits other than the age difference continues to bother her. This is also consistant with what she's told her friends - really likes me, get along great, etc. but the age difference bothers her. While the age thing is a concern it doesn't really "bother" me. What really does concern me, however, is the need for a 42 year old to be most attracted to and want to be with guys 10 years younger than her. What's that about? Again, I see that as dating boys rather than dating a man.
So I'm pulling back. What really stinks is I was told again last night they need names and DOB for the cruise. This time the head guy called our band leader for this info. They are getting serious. Of course the band leader followed with "What's the problem, you're taking Wild Girl, the girls (wives and girlfriends) already have decided she's your girl." I will feel like a total loser again if I have to say, nope sorry, WG is not going and I have to try to find someone else. It's at this point they will likely try to place me with another single member of another band - something I simply WILL NOT DO to the point I just won't go. That's PTSD for me as the last cruise I RAN a few years ago (nothing to do with music) I didn't go on for lack of someone to go with me. This part makes me really sad.
Still, I'm getting ahead of myself here. It's not even close to playing out like that and I don't think it will. I truly think this is just a natural speed bump. It's how she and I handle it that will spell things out. And there you go - a poopy Monday update to add to the 4 or 5 really good ones I've had. I guess that's still not bad - one real pull back in 10 weeks along with 2 minor ones. We will see what this week brings and what happens with what I thought were firm plans for next Sunday-Tuesday.
Hi Don!
I haven't stopped by here in a long time, but had to comment after reading your updates. I'm glad that you have meet someone who interests you and that you have a great time with!
I think you've met a highly sensitive person. A few things you mention - anxiety, feeling guided by a relative who has passed (if I read that right), picking up on what people are like quickly - all sounds familiar. If I'm right, her hesitation and hedging could have to do with the anxiety, not knowing if she'll feel up to going out or traveling. It sounds like you are at the same pace and that's very comfortable.
Enjoy the ride and don't worry or speculate too much!
Sadly, it makes me think, THIS is EXACTLY why I've not had a GF in so long. I hate this crap
I've often said, I'm glad I don't have to date women , they're a PITA.
My women friends are limited to those who are more straightforward and blunt types like myself.
Ok she sounds a bit like me with the sensitivity and with being a little bit messed up emotionally and with relationships.
I do believe hornones play a role especially when a woman is not entirely sure. This is true in my case.
I am just gonna offer this up based on me.... maybe she feels like you have a lot to offer her. But is not happy about something more superficial (you mentioned age) logically, this makes no sense to her. You offer her a lot. A good guy with stability. It would be stupid for her to not go for you. She knows this. But she is now on hyper alert for anything you do. Cause that would justify ending something that else wise is good for her. But another factor is there that is bothering her about you.
What was the comment? Or what did it pertain to. Sometimes women are also more sensitive to certain topics then men.
Another thing i note with you and my own experience and gingers... why is it that men like emotionally unavailable women? Im not emotionally available. Im admittedly being selfish and horrible post divorce. I have made superficial efforts and charm. No problems attracting men. But with my ex i was opposite. Very dedicated. And loyal and invested and he ran. Ugh...but i am bringing this up cause it sounds like you are going for soneone not truly available.
I guess what im saying is, maybe shes just not completely into you. She knows she should be because you are a great guy and will be good to her. For sone reason this attracts you more to her, then someone that is actually into you.
Juju I agree with some of your observations but not all. She is not emotionally unavailable- at least I don't see that. She seems into me and tells her friends so. When we first went out she told me I was outside of her box. She's dated mostly younger, tall farm boys. Her last BF was 34. Most of the guys she didn't "date" she admits. I think there are many things. She thought i may be a player. She's been dumped by guys who go to another girl - like Ginger. She told me early on she's continuing to date me because I make her laugh show her a good time and treat her better and nicer than most guys. She then said after our third or so date that the more she gets to know me the more attractive I become. There is huge sexual attraction on both sides. Her daughters and parents like me a lot. So take away whatever baggage she has and things are good I don't think either of us thought it would go this far and thus long.
Hope that sheds light yet then what else is up? Im not sure. She well may be looking for an excuse to run since she's scared. The comment I made was on the phone. She told me her mom told a friend of hers how proud she is of her and happy she is dating me. I blurted out without thinking "why would she be proud of you?" I really meant why would she be proud of you for dating me. I'd never say there is no reason to be proud of her for other things - never. I apologized hugely but she still stuck with that was rude. So now she's on vacation with her family and claiming her parents like her siblings much more than her. Said it's always been that way. She told her dad and he said she was acting crazy. Her ex put her down. So knowing this my comment really could have hurt her but man I'm only human! I miss spoke. I've never said anything like that - even kidding. She is almost like get them before they get to you.
So has she just pulled it together these two months and now the real her is coming out? I know she has the baggage but figured she sees I'm not a player etc. still i don't see this being a love connection but still think we can spend more time together and who knows. It just is a turn off. I'm still willing to give her a chance here but won't put up with this forever. Again Its been good and a lot of fun for the most part other than the last 10 days has just been different. If this is the real her I won't keep good my. If she had an off week and it dies not repeat again soon I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt. I've not connected thus well with someone in a year or two.
I think the next few days will tell. I'm fully intend to discuss it with her. I just hope she does not bail. It's odd to me how she can say we had such a great time on i day then do a week of being distant. Then again we are both on vacations and both have been busy with only texts. I'll know more Sunday afternoon.
I'd say your instincts are spot on - she is being unreasonable. Even if it is PMS, do you really want to go through this (and much, much worse as she starts to feel safer) every month? She's fun, yes, but is she going to be somebody you can live with and tolerate for a long time?
Okay so here we go. Just the fact that it's Wednesday before I'm posting means I'll likely have good news - and I do. But wow, there is so much here and so much to learn from - at least for me to learn from. I'll lead with the biggest news. Things are back to normal with Wild Girl and I finally did it - I have my cruise date. She is beyond excited and likely renewing her passport this week.
So what all happened? I'm not sure and it's complicated to be sure. I was right about some things, wrong about others. I'm very happy how I handled it. It remains to be seen if this is something that will repeat and is the real Wild Girl or if it was just timing and happened as an occasional thing? I'll be watching for a repeat there is no doubt. I had already said we had not had a single disagreement or fight in the 10+ weeks since we started going out. So I guess one in that time is nothing to get too excited about. It clearly worked out well and has both of us understanding the other much better and has clearly brought us closer - though I'm a bit more hesitant and pulling back slightly - but that again is me as the closer she gets, the more cautious I will get.
Okay, so my comment really did hurt her that badly. Should it have? Well on balance, I don't understand it fully, but other pieces I do. It was not an act on her part it was not her trying to manufacture, etc. I think other things going on in her life, including hearing her ex love had his baby, effected it. To her credit I do have to say she never got mean or pissy or inappropriate. It was never anything like "you're a f'n [censored], I don't want to see your ugly face again" type things. Instead she texted, "that really hurt and I don't feel like talking now. Have a nice night." I do have to give her some points for that. I think she employed more game playing and such later on with short texts, etc. Although even that, I found out later was also partly in response to my short texts back to her. However, in person, it was clear how much this bothered her. It was written all over her face and body language. This is why I so badly wanted to confront her in person and not on the phone and certainly not on text. She freely admits that her ex H did this to her and she believes somewhat her parents did was well. Her Ex TRIED to hurt her. He purposely said really mean things to try to tare her down. That's not at all what I did. I just misspoke. However, she thought I was just trying to get out of it by claiming I misspoke when I really deep down felt that way. I clearly do not but I get after what's gone on why she'd feel that way. It is yet again why I told all of you here I thought she was "broken" when I met her. This is that broken part coming out. She has such little selfasteam and just feels like "why would anyone be proud of her." So when I said "Why would your mom be proud of you?" without adding in "just for dating me" it really, really hurt her. All she heard and all she kept replaying over and over was "why would your mom be proud of you?" Those are her issues and I totally get that. It's why I say she is broken - and I'm not a fixer.
I really think she is so afraid of being hurt that this is why she won't admit she is "dating" but also wants to get them before they get her. She admitted it's not only with me she tries to play down the dating thing, it's with everyone. It was very interesting and nice to see her open up to me about some of these things. I really do think she has been waiting for me to break up with her or change into someone else - so much that any little thing triggers her. So if we are not really dating, we can't break up so she can try to make it no big deal - when really, it clearly is. That's her issues, not mine. It's part of why I still think this will never turn deeply serious, but that's also what keeps me "safe."
I waited until a few hours before she was leaving to bring up the cruise. This was mostly because I was still not sure but also because I didn't want that to effect or change anything. Interestingly enough even after that she asked "What happens if one of us meets someone else or something?" I of course took that to mean, what if she meets someone else. After I further questioned her on that, it because clear what she really was saying and asking was "Are you going to find someone else and drop me?" That was clearly her worry. I think it still kinda is as she's hesitant to tell anyone yet. The broken part of her thinks, this is too good to be true, he's going to find someone better and tell me he wants to go with her. That's what has happened to her in the past with guys. Does this not sound like at least a few people who have been here on the boards with us? I assured her I don't play those games. I would not be that mean to invite someone on something like this than tell them I changed my mind. I said if we start fighting or no longer want to see each other that's a different story but short of that I'm not looking for someone better for this. So on the outside, she has this tough exterior going, saying we are just hanging out, and everything that goes with it, when on the inside I really do think she's thinking, I really like this guy I hope he doesn't hurt me like the others have. By the time she left it was clear the old Wild Girl was back and more open and clearly even more connected to me. Of course, then love avoidant Don kicks in. Typically I have an urge to reach out after we spend a day or two together like this but this time, I was very content. Of course she called and we had another deeper conversation versus just our silly fun banter.
I am very happy how I handled this and somewhat happy with how she did. I could have escalated things and was even suggested by a few to just call her on her crap right away, not wait, and not let her get away with anything. I've never really heeded this statement I'm about to make but it really hit me in this case - you never know what someone else is going through that is effecting how they are acting. Ever hear people say that? "He's acting this way because of what he's going through." That was clearly the case here and what I think a good partner does is they are there for that person. That's what I tried to do. All that said, I also told her very clearly that she should not mistake my kindness, compassion and understanding for desperation or weakness. I was very clearly about this and I could tell she knew I was not playing. I also told her that the time may come when I'm going through a rough patch and I fully expect her to do the same for me. That's what being a couple and R's are all about - even though we are still at the friends stage and I still just don't see a LTR here but both of us are clearly in each other's life at this point in time for some reason. It's almost like she is relieved that I asked her to go on this rather big event five months from now - like she had the revelation of OMG, he really does like me and really will stick around for awhile and not dump me like these other guys have. She may have been waiting for the other shoe to drop - and will no doubt now think that shoe will drop at the end of January after the cruise is over. Who knows. But for now, if we do end up going, and I see absolutely no reason we won't, she will end up being the longest dating period or whatever you want to call it I've had since my D 12 years ago. An 8 month R of some sort I guess. Good way to get my feet wet again if nothing else.
I do have another pretty cool story about two friends that I'll share next time. I also have all sorts of sub stories that could come out of the last days and week. Just so many learning lessons. I just don't want to make this post any longer right now. So there you go... it's clearly all still to be continued... for at least another 5 months it might appear. And, perhaps best of all, you guys don't have to listen to me b@tch and complain about that stupid cruise anymore!!! LOL
I am glad that things have worked out and the cruise is on. I think you handled the situation w/class.
I guess there is more to comment about when things are not going well, huh? LOL What else is there to say at this point. But hang on, I'm sure bumps in the road will be forthcoming. LOL. So I said I had a good story and I do - I think.
Back in 1992, I'm pretty sure, I met this woman that an older guy that volunteered for the organization i administered had started dating. Both "Harry and Sally" have since become good friends - especially Sally. She just gets me. Harry had to have been between 45 and 50 and Sally was between 35 and 40 when they met. He was recently divorced from his first and I think only wife????? Not positive on this. He had several kids. She was D'd for the third time. I paid far less attention to couples and things like that back then. I was never married, pretty sure I didn't have a real GF, and still several years away from meeting my exW. They started living together within a year or so and things stayed that way, well, until now.
I used them as a great example of why you don't have to get married to be together over the long term. They pretty much were married in every sense of the word but after three failed attempts for her and at least one or perhaps two for him, neither wanted to get married again. Well Harry recently had triple bi-pass heart surgery. Imagine my shock then when I got a text last week informing me they got married. "It's amazing what staring death in the eye will do to you" Sally told me. LOL see for me staring death in the eye would be getting married again. But in part for practical reasons - Harry is worried his kids will cut Sally out of everything if they are not married - but he also realized how much he needed and loved her while staring death in the eyes, So there you have it, rather than celebrating what could have been a 25th wedding anniversary - they got married. And just like that, there went my example of why marriage is only a piece of paper. You just never know what lies ahead!
Wild Girl remains really, really excited about the cruise. I am as well - mostly because now I don't have to worry about finding someone to go with me. It is very interesting to watch her walls coming down, however. Or perhaps it's showing me how much she had her walls up. I can just sense and feel the difference in her. She really must have been waiting for me to dump her - which I now think was part of the reason for her trying to keep things casual. The more I get to know her, the more I see shades of Ginger in her - perhaps not even shades but direct comparisons. To be sure, Ginger does not keep things casual, but they are alike in many other ways. She said she was not going to tell anyone about the cruise for a while. Yeah, well so much for that, and I knew it would be the case. Just too excited not to share it with her close friends - who all continue to just tell her to relax and enjoy it all. Several have also told her - look you are dating him, he may even be your boyfriend now. She didn't tell me this but one of her BFFs did. I've been fine with the term of dating all along. But, damn, I may eventually have a girlfriend I guess - even though we've not at all talked about that, and I don't think she will bring it up - not for a while anyhow - and Lord knows I won't!!!! LOL
I'm a little on guard, but not as much as I thought I'd be. I'd still say we are at a good pace for coming up on three months - at least a good pace for me. Others might be much father along than me at this point. But that's just me, and as long as she doesn't turn into a clingy, obsessive, different person, i'll be fine. I can't see that happening. I just really do think, due to her past, etc., she really did think that I was going to move on pretty soon here. That's what many of the other guys have done - or she pushed them to do?????? I'm still doing very well living in the moment and not worrying about the future - perhaps the hour distance and three full years of high school for her youngest are also helping me with that. Those girls are totally #1 in her life - and I'm very happy to keep it that way. Still, this is interesting territory for me in recent years. I may date the same woman for 9 months or even a year. Totally did not see that coming. I have always thought I could see myself following in Harry and Sally's footsteps with someone. Well, up until this past week anyhow.
I still don't at all see Wild Girl becoming Sally, but I guess stranger things could happen.
I guess I get to say... for the first time in a while... life is good - life is really, really good!
Well things just got real - I mean they were real all along but now airline tickets have been purchased - it's really happening. I really thought that for a cruise 139 days from now (no I didn't calculate it, the electronic tickets did) they would not be moving this fast. I guess I really was the holdup. Unbeknownst to me at nearly the same time I was talking with Wild Girl about going a week ago Tuesday, the head guy was contacting the band leader saying they really need to move on this and just what or whom is the holdup? LOL I guess some of the incentives do go away at the end of September. But I was sorta shocked when here come the electronic tickets from Delta. Turns out we are flying to Miami a day early - at 6 AM. We then get back late the following Saturday - too early to drive out and too late for WG to drive home so she will arrive to my house on Thursday evening and return for her home 11 days later on Sunday. Holy Craap - 10 nights and 11 days together! The last time I've even spent close to that amount of time with someone was over 13 years ago when I was still married.
I'm surprisingly still doing okay with it all - actually I'm really, really excited. It's been a long, long time, well, again 13 years, since I've planned something like this with anyone I was romantically involved with - or more than just platonic friends with. I almost sense Wild Girl bringing some of her walls down as well. We've had some very nice conversations earlier in the week. The best mind reading I can do is, for all of her casual bravado, she really was waiting for me to dump her. She had commented before of not knowing yet if I'm a player, etc. I think she now figures, well if he's taking me on a cruise nearly 5 months from now, he's not dumping me anytime soon. I think it's allowing her to relax some. That said, I'm also still seeing and experiencing some of her random little distancing comments - which I think is just her. Perhaps I've been reading too much into some of her actions? Hmmmmm, ya think? LOL
Thankfully, she is still not getting pushy. In fact I've not seen her in about 10 days, since I asked her to go, and may not for a week or two yet. She did have camping plans with her family this weekend but they may be getting cancelled due to all of the rain we've had in the area the past week. That may change things, we shall see. Otherwise I'm scheduled to stay at her house in a few weeks - something she's already told her daughters about happening. They are now calling me her boyfriend - she is not. LOL To say she is excited, however, is an understatement and that makes me feel good. I'm still just enjoying the ride and everything that comes with it. Other than our misunderstanding from three weeks ago, it has been a pretty good three months. We'll see if anything repeats in about a week to 10 days when the cycle comes around again - if that was a piece of it. I did see and talk with her parents - mostly her mom - last week Sunday. She even mentioned that Wild Girl had said she was upset with me. When I told them, what I said was taken out of context, they both right away said, yeah, that's Wild Girl. Her mom even added, "you must know that by now." Oh great. So they are sort of confirming it for me. I totally see it as a function of her old wounds but it still is not an attractive attribute - even if it can be explained. Clearly something I'll continue to watch.
Anyhow, just wanted to provide that update. On balance, it's still been a really good summer. For someone that is totally fine being by themselves and on their own - often preferring it - I've really enjoyed the time we've spent together and continue to look forward to the next time. Or is it all of the physical parts I've been missing and now look forward to? Might be a bit of both. Whatever, it would appear this will be continued at least through the end of January. Who knew!!!!!!
Those of you following along with me here the past three or so months might figure, well it's a Tuesday and it's been two weeks since Don saw Wild Girl so there should be a wild update coming. Nope, not this time. Not sure what is going on but of course it's given me too much time to think - and that's not usually good. If I am not sure, I'm not sure how any of you can be just from what I say but you may well see things I don't. So let's go.
So on the surface things are mostly fine and it was a good week. However, I'm not so sure. Is it because of what we all know happens and you just can't trust people? I've been so happy I solved the cruise thing - which I'll admit has been too big of a deal for me but it is what it is. It really bothered me since February when I found out and seemingly it's all come together nearly as best as I could have hoped for. Tickets were cut for the air last week Wednesday so there is no backing out now. So it's happening. I really don't think Wild Girl would pull out at this point yet that's what is often on my mind.
So last week Monday we talked on the phone for several hours as typical for us - -all good. Tuesday we texted a bit and I quickly got "I'm sorry I can't talk have a wonderful night" okay no big deal. Wednesday was when the tickets came through so I let her know. Turns out her two girls expressed displeasure/concern/whatever on Tuesday that she spends so much time on the phone with me and a few days together. They are feeling neglected and a bit jealous according to Wild Girl. I totally get that and told her, just be with your girls. She understands them but also says that they want her to be happy and are glad she has someone who is interested in her - but then when that happens, they don't like it. Now for the most part the girls really do seem to like me, especially D17 who will grab the phone and tell me about something she just did or whatever. So Wednesday again went very well with Wild Girl being more emotionally close than typical saying things like "It makes me feel so good how excited you are, my smile couldn't be any bigger." and "I am so blessed Don and it's all because of you." Even called me "sweetheart" which is not typical of her. So she is obviously very, very excited about the cruise. We even talking about some other weekend trip ideas for Fall - she brought them up. She then says it looks like camping plans are getting cancelled so we might be able to get together this weekend (this past weekend) - which I'm excited to hear.
Thursday she had to see her ex H - which is rare. Not sure if that means anything or not. She saw her dad, who immediately talked about me I guess. Her, her dad and the girls were picking up some new furniture. We texted a bit Thursday night and all seemed normal although she said she was not as sure about coming out this weekend - had friends coming over Friday, might have a party on Saturday and for certain a cook out on Sunday. I'm like well okay and made plans myself so I was busy all three days.
So turns out she did nothing on Friday night, just stayed home. She texted me late in the night and told me later her friends wanted to watch the college football game at the bar and she opted out - just felt like staying home. I had met up with a friend I've not seen in many months. Saturday I was very busy and didn't hear from her at all. By now I'm starting to feel some anxiety like what is going on. Why not come out like you said - especially if you didn't do anything else? But, I need alone time too so perhaps that was it? Anyhow, we somehow end up on the phone late Saturday night after I got home from a cook out and everything is 1000% normal. We ended up talking for over two hours and were both shocked when we saw it was near 1:30. She even told me that she told the girls about the cruise - something she said she would not do for a while yet (but I knew she would not be able to wait) They were all fine with it - other than they wanted to go too! At this point I'm thinking, see Don, it was all in your head! Things are fine.
Sunday we both had separate plans and once again, I don't hear much from her. Monday, we both did nothing. It was a hugely dreary day, rained all day long. We both binged watched shows, though had no contact until after 9 PM. We did text later at night and that seemed normal but then when she was going to sleep she tells me "hopefully I'll be able to sleep, too much on my mind" followed by "I thought too much today and wish it didn't rain so I could have taken a long walk" I asked if there was anything I can help with and was told "Not at the moment" followed by pleasant goodnights.
I keep coming back to her being broken but I also am really thinking about me. I don't know if she has depression with her anxiety? She's done this dance before but often goes through with the plans, we have an incredible time - with her talking about it for weeks after - yet she can't seem to get out of the way of herself. I hate the unknown. Just let me know - don't lie to me and don't surprise me with stuff. It makes no sense that we both did nothing and would have had a great time had we just met up. I really think that her daughters are a part of it - especially D15. But she also brought up past BF of many years who she took back when he said he left his wife only to find out they were having a baby - which was delivered a week or two ago. She is honest with me about these things, which I value. It would be far easier not to tell me. She even sort of asked me about kids and why I didn't have my own, etc. She sort of hinted at would I ever want a baby, to which I said, Wild Girl, at 55 there is simply no way that is in my future and for her at near 44 or 45 before it would happen at this point that ship has likely sailed for her as well which she agreed with, but I can tell it makes her very emotional. She thought her and ex BF were going to marry and have one more baby together -with him at 34 it makes total sense. He's now done that with his wife.
I'm certain we will talk about what went out for her this weekend in due time, but I'm all about timing and this was not the right timing - especially not on text. We have firm plans for next weekend with me staying at her house. She has never cancelled firm plans and only once cancelled other plans - unless this weekend counts but that was just a mention. For me I'm getting what I've always said I wanted - someone who is not pushy, doesn't want an R, will see me a couple times a month - no more than once a week. I'm getting some of the best sex of my life (Sorry if that's TMI but I'm really being honest). She is total fun. So I really am getting what I thought I wanted. But now, am I wanting more? I think I'm mostly wanting consistency and reassurance - not very much in on Wednesday with being so happy and on and on and then distant three days later - although certainly not distant Saturday night. Or am I reading too much into it? Go with your gut is what I often say and my gut tells me something is up - and what is up is a broken Wild Girl. I don't at all think she is playing games or trying on purpose to do any of this - I think it is her in her core and she can't help it. Time will tell as the picture continues to unfold I guess. What's even crazier though, is if she was all in, I'd be running away and distancing - perhaps like she is now? Maybe that's what's going on - we are both avoidant and when one gets closer the other pulls away?
Complicated to say the least. It will all come out in time and I just need to be a bit more detached and continue my GAL. Nothing is ever easy. I'm still having more fun and enjoying this than I did in the first half of the year before it started. Still, this angst and anxiety is no fun - I hate this part. But it's part of every R - at least on some level. Things are never smooth sailing and even when they sometimes are, that blows up out of nowhere. Okay, I've got to stop typing here as it's too long already.
Me recent revelation?
Consistency and reassurance is found in a RELATIONSHIP. People who are avoidant of those qualities don't want a relationship.
So, basically what you want from her, is a relationship.
I agree with G DH.....it sounds like you are wanting more and are questioning your current arrangement. IMO this is generally what happens with casual type of hook ups only a couple of times a month....eventually someone wants more.
Hey Don. Following along on the home game here. A divergent opinion as well.
I think you are having an expectation or wish that you were dealing with someone who is a lot more healed than she is. It sounds like a lot of her recent relationships involved her being kicked when she's down. If so, it's no surprise that she would be skittish.
You are 12 years out roughly. She's perhaps (picking number out of the air) 12 months from her last disappointment? You are both in very different places in terms of trusting in yourself and others.
She's also having to deal with the whole being a Mom thing. Her kids, while they sound happy for her, are undoubtedly jealous of the time she is giving you that they used to get. She's got a lot on her plate and is used to the plate being wobbly. I would suggest cutting her some slack and giving her the space to be a Mom.
Just my own opinion.
Some good comments to make me think so far. Let me respond.
I don't know what that means? Typo perhaps?
IMO this is generally what happens with casual type of hook ups only a couple of times a month....eventually someone wants more.
I don't disagree with you - the thing is, that "someone" rarely has been me. It was once before - nearly 25 years ago now - but I have three or four true FWB, but we flow in and out of each other's lives much less frequently, rarely more than a few times a year and sometimes only a few times every few years depending what each of us has going on.
Consistency and reassurance is found in a RELATIONSHIP. People who are avoidant of those qualities don't want a relationship.So, basically what you want from her, is a relationship.
See, this, along with Joseph's comment do kind of sum it up. I may want more of a real R. But here is the thing, as sure as I'm sitting here typing this, if that happened, I'd back off and distance. It may eventrually be put to the test, who knows. This is why I'm trying to be cautious because "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it."
It's really ironic and perhaps telling to me that I was thinking, "hmmmm I wonder if this is how my exW felt early on." When we first met she wanted to see me ALL OF THE TIME. Perhaps that's why I'm now so avoidant??? If she didn't see me at least twice a week, there would be hell to pay - well okay not that but it bothered her and I could tell. The thing is, I was interested - obviously, I married her for crying out loud. I just didn't see a need or feel the need to see her all the time - yet she did. That brought me to wonder if this is how she felt back then. And I was not looking to break up with her or anything - for the most part anyhow - I just didn't feel the desire to see her all the time.
Even now, every couple of weeks really is fine. It's the unknown that bothers me. And it's also the realization I may be correct about my intial assessment that stinks. If only the broken part was not there - much else fits. That then gets my mind going - like Saturday yet when we talked, it was clearly just all in my head - and it may just still be all in my head. She posted a pic of the girls on social media today for first day back to school and said she thought she was going to cry. I'm sure this is part of the picture. But, and I hate to keep coming back to this, a Google search seems to point to 5 to 10 days prior to her period for the time of PMS - including all of the emotional aspects. Well guess where she is on that calendar right now???? I'm just sayin LOL
You are 12 years out roughly. She's perhaps (picking number out of the air) 12 months from her last disappointment? You are both in very different places in terms of trusting in yourself and others.
That's a good point and something I didn't think through fully. See, she's D'd for 9 years. That's a long time. But you are correct, she knew this guy while she was still married and started dating casually after they D'd. That intensified but then he broke it off for this other woman and married her. However, even while "dating" it doesn't sound like it was what any of us would call really dating. He didn't date her, he "hid her away" by her own words (this was prior to the wife) and didn't really act as a couple - didn't do family things, etc. It sounds largely like a sexual R than anything.
Beyond that, she talks often about what her ex H did. Beyond his drinking, constant verbal put downs and some physical abuse, he tried to take the kids from her. This was only a few years ago and for the life of me I can't see how he could even try. Perhaps there is something I don't know but the judge threw it out rather quickly and nothing ever changed other than the girls have little if any interaction with him. He has no visitation, they don't communicate much at all. Other than stopping to pick up money for drivers ed that he agreed to pay, D15 has not heard from him since her birthday in May. Wild Girl and the two girls are very, very tight. She really has done well with those girls. You'd think based on this info they would be very screwed up but from all I can tell, they are really, really well adjusted girls - especially D17 who is rather amazing from everything I can tell - work, school, interests, friends, boyfriend, outgoing, personable, you name it. D15 struggles a bit more but I'm betting she will blossom in the next year or two like her sister has. Anyhow, this court action profoundly effected her. She still talks of it somewhat often, blames her anxiety on it, etc.
She has a very solid, confident exterior. She really does, including saying how this is who she is and if guys don't like it, too bad. She also is very good about not trying to change me - really good. Even the things that my friends give me crap and tease me about, she rarely does. I don't know if she accepts it or not but she clearly does not try to change it. Anyhow, for all of this confident exterior, I think there is someone else entirely deep down. At least she's doing a great job of faking it until you make it! I'm just still discovering the real Wild Girl - including she's not nearly as wild as I first thought.
So, yes Andrew, her baggage is much more recent and more raw. I don't fix people so all I can do is step back a bit and support as needed as I can. She needs to work through all of this. And at this age, everyone has baggage - it's just the case, including me. I'm just not very good at dealing with it. It's largely why I've not had a significant R in many years. I just don't do well with drama and emotions and all of that. I'm a very, very even guy. On a scale of 1 to 10 I usually am at a 7 or 8, rarely lower than a 5 and rarely higher than that 8. That's me. Others can be an 8 in the morning and a 3 in the afternoon followed by a 10 the next day. It's who they are. I may just have to learn to live better with those who are different than I am - which might be most people - as well as re-learn to deal with women and all that comes with them.
I think you're overthinks ng. She has PMS and just found out her ex boyfriend finally had his child with his wife - the child SHE thought she was going to have.
That's a lot, And none of it really has to do with you. Let her process it. You're good - she called you sweetie, you're in.
Relax and enjoy.
You are totally correct KML but I need to give myself some 2X4s here:
Let's start with I don't understand women and I can't mind read for crap. I really can't mind read text. I have to stop trying. I don't know if it's still PTSD from my bomb drop 13 years ago? Or one of the two GFs did somewhat of a bomb drop as well - it came out of nowhere. That's not at all what's going on here. Looking back the two times we talked on the phone, things were totally normal, it was the texts but even those I was wrong about minor, every day things.
So my plan was just let her come to me. I was not going to text or call tonight. What happens, of course early in the evening while I'm still out taking my hot tub pump in for repair I get a text saying she's free in a little while if I want to talk. I'm not going to lie, a little part of me was like, um talk about what, oh no here it comes. Well of course I could not have been more wrong - about everything. She explained the weekend - well mostly. Even me thinking she didn't have fun at the cook out her and the girls went to... nope she totally did (again mind reading text). Then she says how she misses seeing me since it's been two weeks and would this coming weekend work? Yes, her reaching out to me - not me having to ask like is often the case. We already have plans for me to stay over the following weekend due to back to back gigs close to her.
So, yes, all good, it was never not. Why am I looking for the next shoe to drop? And that is typically NOT me. I'm rather confident and rather good at selecting and passing by - I mean how many women did I discard and move on from in the past several years? Perhaps that's part of it - try as I might, I just could not bring myself to be excited about them - something that's not a problem with wild girl - I am excited to hear from her and to spend time with her.
So this is the third time now that I've been wrong. I totally need to get myself together. - yes, KML, I am in and need to relax and enjoy. I really am good until the end of January at the very least. It's all good. Get your shlt together Don!!!!!!!!!!
It's been a couple of months when I and my partner decided to end it up and so far I am doing good. I am getting used to the fact that it's just me, my baby girl and our pug, but he still visit Lace and I don't see any problem with it. It's like we are back to being friends again. I feel like I am more independent now than before. I do the lawn trimming, the dog bath time, and I am taking the trash outside(which is BTW I hate doing the most). I am also planning to do a freelance job since I wanted to gain new knowledge and I don't want to forget about my passion. I just need to keep myself busy, and the only thing that is left is to move on and be happy.
******MY MOST RECENT REVELATION*******
I was on the phone when I got the message and wasn't paying attention to the details:)
A relationship is on where you consider the other persons feelings, make an effort to make sure they feel secure and have a level of consistency. Perhaps she is saying she doesn't want an R because she can't offer those things right now?
Hey, that was HC's thing. He wanted to see me, date me, dessert me, whatever you want to call it. But he wsn't in a place to offer me consistency and reassurance. Hence, no R, hence, it doesn't work for me or him.
Hang in there DH.....it's hard to hold the line and make them come to you when you start to get a taste of some booty
Are your edges starting to soften
Aw, you rascally Avoidant you, Don - you're catching feelings!
The reason you feel so - uncomfortable - is because once you have feelings you have something to lose. That's generally why Avoidants keep people at arms length. But as my friend once said - "Avoidants need love too!".
You may just have found the right woman who doesn't want to see you all the time and crowd you. You got what you wished for so just enjoy and stop looking into the ditch. (A friend taught me to ride a dirt bike once and he said - "Don't look into the ditch or you'll end up in the ditch. Look where you want to go.")
The reason you feel so - uncomfortable - is because once you have feelings you have something to lose. That's generally why Avoidants keep people at arms length. But as my friend once said - "Avoidants need love too!"
I don't want whatever this is to end - or at least I'm not ready for it to end yet. I still can't see years down the road and am not trying to but I've finally found someone I look forward to seeing. That's kinda rare for me. I think the last time was 2.5 years ago now! I often am interested to see them but I could take it or leave it and often feel like yeah I want to meet up more than I don't but there is not much excitement. I'm totally enjoying this. It's fun planning things to do. It's great to have someone to call and tell about my day, etc. I just have this nagging fear that all of a sudden she will change her mind, or a guy closer to her typical type - ie younger - will come along. But just as much, I also worry that I'll lose interest. It's not like I try to but it's happened before where all of a sudden... Or the "cute" things she does will become really annoying things.
I actually remember some 25 years ago sorta being in the same situation. Thing is, as soon as she said "okay let's do this for real, how about I come down with the kids and we all spend the weekend together" I was so turned off and so out. Of course let's hope I've matured some in those 25 years - including a marriage in that span. In that case I look back now thinking, what in the heck did I even see in her? But again it was 25 years ago.
But I could see doing this with Wild Girl for good while yet - so long as things don't change - but we all know they will. It won't stay like this forever, so I'm just enjoying it while it's here and hoping it lasts at least as long as I want it to. That's as honest as I can be. I just need to stop torturing myself or at least annoying myself in the meantime. There was no reason to have the doubting thoughts I had, or put myself through the negative thoughts - NONE. I need to stop that as there is no reason for it!
So looks like about a week and a half since I've updated so it's time. Really, a lot I think has shifted, I guess I'm just not sure about all of it, I'm really not sure of why but I know it's changing.
When I look and think back, all of this recent Wild Girl run started with me needing to find a "date" for a 7 day cruise. That really is what spurred me to be more active in the dating world again. I had three or four women to explore/choose from, plus had a semi-solid back-up FWB that I could go to if really needed. But then WG popped back on my radar after being introduced in June of 2017. The following now 3.5 months has been chronicled here so I won't recap any additional recent history.
Last week was again weird - much like the week before. I sensed something going on two weeks ago but then it appeared like I was overthinking and mind-reading too much. Well, perhaps not. We've only been seeing each other a couple times a month - but often for a couple days at a time. In between there has been lots and lots of phone calls and texts. I went to her house for the opening Sunday of football, after she backed out on coming over Saturday to Sunday two weekends ago. Things seemed rather normal. Then this past week she clearly was distancing. Finally by Wednesday I just dropped the rope. We still had a text here and there but not the often now common hour or two phone calls at night. I knew she was getting to that time of the month and chalked it up to that, plus the girls are back in school and around more needing her attention. We already had prior plans for this Saturday including my staying over at her house due to multiple band gigs near her so I figured I'd just see her then. She showed up with her parents on Saturday and all was normal. She told them about the cruise - her daughters and friends already knew, even though she said she would not tell anyone for a while. Things seemed normal with fairly normal physical touch although we've now not had sex the last I think three times we've been together - mostly for lack of opportunity, although when there could have been opportunity, she didn't want to take it. A few more of my friends met her with other onlookers asking other band members "Is that Don's girlfriend, or who is Don with?" as it's not typical for me to have a GF type person at a gig. Since her parents picked her up and brought her, I took her back to her house. She gave up her bed and slept on the couch as her daughters were home - something I am more than totally fine with and would have encouraged if she suggested otherwise. Sunday morning seemed a little strained. I had to leave about noon to perform at the Sunday gig and was not sure if I was stopping back at her house or not. Ends up I left a few items behind - no big deal but went back for a few drinks on her deck in the eve anyhow.
Glad I did as we had our normal very good conversation and time, but it became more clear something was up or perhaps she's just going through too much at the moment. Most upsetting to me, even though it really should not be, was that for whatever crazy reason D17 who I really thought a lot of and who seemed to really like me, now doesn't want me around. Hmmmmm interesting. I have zero idea why other than she's a teenager. WG seems to think that they are both afraid I'm taking their mother away. But wow the attitude on this girl last night and Wild Girl took it all from her as if SHE is the daughter and D17 is the mother - which is not at all her personality normally. D17 was very disrespectful to her, would not even acknowledged me, very interesting to experience and totally out of nowhere as last weekend D17 talked my ear off with Wild Girl saying "Why do you talk with Don about all of this stuff but you never tell me these things?" So truly a 180 overnight - or during the week. Makes me wonder if WG was discussing me with D17? Also odd... or perhaps it's just she's a teenager getting away with it so she continues.
To add to it all, Wild Girl's ex bf, from what I can tell, perhaps the only guy she thinks she's ever loved, had a baby with his still somewhat new wife, there is a friend family connection and WG came face to face with exbf, wife and baby about 10 days ago at a birthday party. It almost seems like whatever is going on started then. Then her actual ex husband she D'd 9 years ago got married a week ago. She has zero feelings for him, but you still have to wonder if that didn't effect her in some way - just seeing his life is moving on while her's at least romantically, is not - including getting that 3rd baby her ex bf promised her. Then her BFF since kindergarten and her had a bit of a falling out. She did tell me she hasn't felt like talking to anyone lately. At least, I know I didn't do anything, other than be myself. I get some feeling that she thinks I'm only looking for sex. That's an odd dynamic for me given she's very sexual, initiated things much faster than I would have yet now might think that's all "I" am looking for? Very odd. Although I've seen others here post about thinking that guys are only after sex even after they had sex with them very quickly.
Sadly, or perhaps fortuitously, it has me taking a much more clear look at the reality of all of this - and it's what it has always been, only now I'm seeing it clearer or not looking past it. Wow, maybe I am just looking for sex? But I swear, I really don't think that way consciously. I very much enjoy just hanging out, talking on the phone, having a goto person to do things with, etc. Bottom line remains however, she can be a lot of fun to play with but I know more than ever that I don't want to do full-time, or whatever catchy phrase might apply - perhaps a fun place to visit but I would not want to live there? She's clearly stressed, and increasing her already solid level of self-medicating with alcohol, but I'm seeing her downsides much more than the up lately.
So where that brings me is I'm giving lots of space. In fact I won't contact her and will wait for her to come to me. I think that's likely needed in order to reach January 19 anyhow. Remember this was my fear all along - having to name someone so far out and then get through the next 5 or 6 months with them. I really don't see her backing out - I mean who would. And for all I know whatever is bothering her will pass in a week and she will be blowing up my phone and wanting to come out and visit. Who knows. Perhaps it's like the stock market and is a needed correction. Things can't always go up and up and up, you have to have fall downs, fall outs and corrections. I was getting too connected (for me anyhow) as it was, so another positive for a correction. The way it's all happened has me feeling totally fine about it all, which is also very helpful.
I am in what might be my busiest season for music. I "only" did 3 gigs over about 24 hours this weekend but man I was beat, at least my mouth was. Friday will kick off what might be my longest string in a long, long, long time - 11 gigs in 10 days. That's a lot of sax playing let me tell you! I've gotten so good at being a semi-retired lazy guy... So life is still good and I'm doing just fine. I miss that, met a really fun girl newness. It really was a fun several months with ball games, fairs, dining out and of course sleep overs!
And this is not yet the end, but something really tells me that the end of January might be as we become a very occasional FWB situation.
Perhaps what stinks the most is now knowing for sure that I'll eventually have to find someone else. I really have come to not like the finding someone new dating process. There really is something to be said for finally getting comfortable with someone and not always having to do another first date, another first kiss, etc. Either way, Wild Girl is not going to be my last first kiss - just no way - but I pretty much new that, and said it here, right off the bat. So more dating it will have to be - just not for at least a few months yet. I'll hang back here for a little while and see if things work themselves out. It really is her loss much more than mine, in that I have no doubt.
So there you go. Sorry this update is not as exciting as some of the others. I know I'll still have more exciting and positive ones before whatever this is fully concludes - just might not be for another month or so. As always, I'm very open to thoughts, opinions or suggestions should anyone have them. If not, hopefully you at least enjoy reading my updates.
Dh.....I agree with your assessment back off and give her space, let her come to you. Trust your gut if you sense that something is off. You’re right, it is a long time until Jan.
I agree that stepping back is the right move.
But it looks more painful than enjoyable for your right now. You aren't even getting that great sex, her kids are being nasty, she is being distant, you aren't having your fun dates.
What's keeping you there? The cruise? The hope that something wonderful will come out of this? The though of having to start from scratch with someone else?
I don't like the finding someone new dating process. But I realize it's a better option than being in a crappy half-arsed relationship. Or being alone for the rest of my life. You got to see which thing you dislike the most, I guess.
What's keeping you there? The cruise? The hope that something wonderful will come out of this? The though of having to start from scratch with someone else?.
Great question! I'd say much of the above other than something wonderful - I don't see that. It's likely that the cruise is number 1. I've tried to explain the dynamic of this but unless you are in it I guess it's hard for you guys to understand the significance of this. First off it's a tremendous opportunity to get and do something that rarely comes along. We are getting as a band over $10,000 grand to do a gig that would normally pay about 1/4. But that's just the start. The potential is great for this to become a yearly thing. For one band this will be their 5th straight year. Our drummer got tapped to go to Hawaii on a 10 day trip and cruise. That coukd happen to me amd the full band could go again for several years if we don't rock the boat. I'm 3 layers down here. Everything is now booked including flights. If I come back to them and ask for changes I'll be seen as high maintainence. I know there will be charges. Here is a separate example, we used to perform at a place 6 or 9 weekends a year. We needed one or two extra hotel rooms for a festival they were part of. For whatever reason they got P'd off. They never hired us for that festival again and we rarely if ever play the bar/restaurant anymore. It's just how this biz works. Think of how many bands would kill for a $3,000 vacation (per band member and guest) in exchange for less than 10 hours of "work". The leaders wife is very savvy on this stuff and dealt with the promoter on the flights. I guess he was rather difficult and was already a bit upset with something we had already done that caused them a slight hiccup. She already said, you guys better not rock the boat or you'll never get asked back. Imagine if I were the guy who capsized us? Nope, I'm nit raking that chance.
Hopefully that makes it more clear why now that Wild Girl is all booked and ticketed I'm extremely reluctant to change it. But then, change it to whom? The other two I was considering now know I'm taking wild girl. I can't hardly go back to either of them and say, "hey do you want to be my second choice to go". The thought of starting from scratch also is there. Those of you who've been following know my struggles there.
All that said, I won't stick with wild girl for fear or reluctance to do anything else. That's not me, I've totally always been happier alone than frustrated with someone else. While I don't think something wonderful will come out, until about two or three weeks ago it had been really nice. So we are talking about 1/6 or 1/5 of the time has been more strained. So it well may return. It would be just as stupid for me to bail at the first speed bump. Had thus started at week three it would be a different story, I'd be gone, but also not this far in. But I need to give it time. There is no rush to bail. Should I meet an awesome girl thus weekend, I'll ask her out. There really is no rush as long as I detach.
I really do wonder if this doesn't relate back to sex. The most baffling part is D17. There is nothing I could have done for her reaction - I swear wild girl had to say something to her. I've got a great intuition and I'll bet I'm right about this. I'll maybe elaborate in another post but I wonder if Wild Girl was testing me with some comments, etc and I totally failed - and I even know better. I know, it's not making sence but if I tell the story it may.
Thing is, it's not like I even want to contact her and am not. I have not had one urge - especially since she asked me, as always to text her when I got home Sunday night. I've not heard from her since. So I will wait this week. I really will be surprised if I don't hear from her but if not, at some point I will just cut to it and ask what's up, something is obviously going on and put her on the spot with it. It's a little different than an OLD thing as she can't just ghost me away with not only the cruise but her family all know me, my friends know her, her friends know me. I'd be shocked if she would even try if these other things were not in place, but certainly not when they are. But I'll first give her time and space. That's number one
Don - just my 2 pence here for what it's worth. This is only my perception based on what I've read so I may be way off base here.
It's sad to me to read what appears to be you giving up on this person but planning to string her along for your own reasons for the next number of months.
Yes, she's damaged and no you're not a knight in shining armour there to rescue her. From what I read though, she's clinging to you and really wants to make this work despite the difference in age, the geographical challenges, challenges with her kids etc.
Perhaps I'm painting this with the brush of my own potentially budding relationship - there are always similarities if you look for them. My lady-friend is going through probably the second worst part of her divorce process right now.
Is this the "right" relationship for you long term? I have no clue. I don't know you. I don't know her. What I do read though is that she needs quite a bit of patience and a lack of pressure go get through this. If you are willing.
None of this stuff is easy. Especially the second (or subsequent) go-around.
I know we cannot turn back time, but unless this R was on solid ground and an actual R and a future was seen, you probably shouldn't have invited her on the cruise. I know you really wanted to bring a date this year. Trust me, I am the single one most of the time amongst couples, even on vacations. But putting in for a ticket for one probably would have been best for you and best for the organizers.
I agree with Andrew, keeping a woman around because you don't want to rock the boat (pun intended) for the cruise people, isn't really fair to her. You can't keep an R together for this reason. Find a buddy or another friend and I am sure being back-up on an all-expensive paid cruise isn't that bad of an insult. So please, do not drag this on for the sake of the cruise. Do what is right and fair for the both of you.
Don - I disagree with everybody here. You're overthinking. She's been hit with a lot lately with the ex's and also her girls just started school.
You've got just what you thought you wanted - a woman who is available for fun (but not too often) and doesn't demand anything of you. Enjoy it! Stop worrying so much!
The only thing I might change is, your default position is to go back to not contacting her. After reading here how many women really appreciate that simple good morning and good night text, may I suggest you just do that? Friendly, supportive, but not demanding. Maybe she is feeling like you're not paying her enough attention and mentioned something about that to D17, who is then feeling defensive of her mom?
The bottom line is - every time you spend time together everything seems ok. So you may just be overthinking/over-reading things in the meantime. Try being consistent - not pushy - with your communication and see if she responds to that.
And as for the cruise - stop worrying about it. Either you two will be good when the time arrives and you'll have a good time, or it won't work out and you'll be in the same place you were initially - single on the cruise with your pick of groupies. No worries.
I again want to thank all three of you for your input. I do value and honestly do try to see all views. I have to say, I by far identify and agree with KML's thoughts and suggestions - perhaps because I want to??? Who knows. Try as I may, I just can't seem to impress on everyone the dynamic of this cruise. You guys just can't seem to grasp how dicey this is - perhaps because you've never dealt with something like this. Going by myself was NEVER an option. Well, it was kinda presented that way early on but quickly became not an option and I was told that very clearly. That is because the price is the same for 2 as it is for 1 - other than taxes. What I was quickly told was if I don't bring someone - they will stick me with another single band member - from another band - likely someone I would meet for the very first time on the ship. Hell to the no! I don't know about you and women seem to be better at this than men but I'm a very private person to begin with . There is no way in hell I'm going to share a small cruise cabin with some strange guy I've never met. Would you do that???? Seriously? And what's worse now is if I go and she doesn't, and if I don't let them know ahead of time and just show up, oh trust me, I'll be toast because they will have spent $379 on a flight that never got used and will think I tried to pull one over on them. This is not some big corporate conglomerate here - this is a small travel agency ran by another somewhat established shall I say B or perhaps C level national musician from the east coast. He's still on television, has a tour bus, plays around the USA, is the real deal - or at least was years and years ago, but like a lot of these "stars" from the past try to do what they can to keep on keeping on into their senior years. You don't screw with people like this and if I screwed this up for the other guys, OMG, they will be PO'd and rightfully so. I already said something to another band members wife about flights that got me in trouble - evidently our deal included flights and their's didn't. No one told me it was a secret so how did I know not to say anything? Yet, I got yelled at for it and still do. So I already have strike 1!
As for not asking her, I said all along - even when others here said "don't wait, do it sooner than later" - that I'd wait as long as I possibly could, which is exactly what I did. I even thought they were pushing me needlessly until the air tickets came in within days of me providing the information. When I spoke with her about it, I stressed that I didn't want this to change anything. Perhaps it has? Who knows???
As for your comments Andrew, how do you see her clinging to me? She's distancing if anything. She's clearly not clinging - at least not to me. Clinging would be calling me, texting me, wanting to see me. She's done the opposite for the last week. If I'm missing something with this, please tell me what it is Andrew. This distancing kinda started last Wednesday and I did exactly what you said, just sent one or two texts a day of that nature. Here is one word for word: "Hey beautiful, hope your long day at work is going well so far. Maybe we can catch up more tonight? Have a great day Wild Girl." She did respond rather quickly with "Thanks you too!" certainly nothing wrong with that, but I can tell you from months of history, it's not typical of her. Even more untypical, I heard nothing else for a day or two. The next two responses days later were single words. So I don't at all see her clinging to me. Again, if I'm missing this, please clue me in.
As for stringing it along - she fully could say "Don, I think I'm changing my mind about going on the cruise with you." Right? Why would it be on me to cancel it on her - and honestly that's not who I am. There is no gun to her head here, she is a 42 year old manager of a salon/spa, she is more than capable of making her own decisions. I should not have to make them for her. That's not my role nor should it be. I've never lied to or mislead her about anything. In fact, if anyone could stand more, I'm pretty sure it's me!!!! If anyone says we are dating, she's quick to correct them. She's very quick to call me her "friend" or her "Buddy" - that's not me doing that.
The bad/sad/wrong part about this is all we can do is mind read - me included. Something is going on, but it's mind reading as to what. I have my own mind read as to what it might be with regard to me and something I may have said totally kidding, but even if I'm correct, it's only a fraction of the total picture. As is very often the case, whatever is going on very likely doesn't have much if anything to do with me. I'm sure many other things are a part of it. Hell, she may not even know why she feels the way she does? She may well just need time to sort it out or let it pass.
I am overthinking it too much - YET AGAIN. Nothing has to happen quickly here. I do think I have to agree with KML and wait another day or so, see if she contacts me and if not, just give her a few, light, casual texts or maybe give her a quick call. Perhaps it's time we do slow down a bit - and honestly it's the change that I sense more than anything. I just purchased a new iPhone 8 Plus - Yay Me LOL - to replace my nearly 6 year old phone. I was SHOCKED when I looked at my past stats for phone time.
April - 59 Minutes
May - 130 Minutes
June - 1,330 Minutes
July - 1,259 Minutes
August - 980 Minutes
Pretty obvious, hey? Perhaps we were in too much contact the first couple of months but honestly, it has just been natural and I think in part due to the distance. I'm sure if we lived closer I'd have seen her in person more than a couple times a month rather than spending 20 hours a month on the phone. KML is totally correct, I don't think we've even been together and not had a great time. Even times when she or I might not have felt like getting together but still did, time flies by and we both agree we had a really, really fun time. It actually did even happen again this past Sunday. I was not even going to stop back but forgot a few minor things and said I'd just swing by and have a beer with her... well nearly 5 hours later... Yet, I've not heard from her since my text telling her I got home - radio silence since then. That's the difference as even the last time she came out and we were together for two days, she called a few hours after getting home saying "I'm not even sure why I'm calling you but I just wanted to." That's what's now different. Then again, the kids are back in school and life is different as well.
You've got just what you thought you wanted - a woman who is available for fun (but not too often) and doesn't demand anything of you. Enjoy it! Stop worrying so much!
I think I need to print this out in huge letters and hang it on my bathroom mirror. I'm being stupid about it all. Whatever it is, it is, I will wait and see and if I don't hear anything by Wednesday evening I'll give her a gentle text and see what happens. Thanks again for your input everyone. Even if I don't agree I do look at it all and take it in - and by all means if you have more, or anyone who's not commented wants to, have at it!
As for your comments Andrew, how do you see her clinging to me? She's distancing if anything.
I perhaps expressed myself poorly. I'm not talking about current events, I'm referring to what I've read as a larger pattern / initial reaction.
Her very strong initial push to as some might say "seal the deal" combined with some fairly consistent (and inconsistent) efforts to keep you interested speak to something to me rather different than what a "normal" relationship would be. She is making what seems like a lot of effort to carve out time for you at the detriment of her relationship with her kids for example.
Because I have a tendency to use bad metaphors, you were perhaps a lighthouse in the storm. She knows you are a safe place to rest but is also pulled in other directions. She undoubtedly has other influences around her that you've mentioned that are encouraging her to spend time with you and to have a relationship but there is a lot of "noise" and she's unclear on what "she" actually wants. Hence the bouncing off the windows of the lighthouse and not really trying to find a way in. This is stretching it a bit far now - but perhaps she is self-medicating to quiet the noise and get away from it.
Is she feeling these theoretical expectations from you, from those around her, from herself? No clue.
Well, tonight starts my string of gigs through the next weekend - although one for tomorrow (Saturday) bailed yesterday Long story that just points to the hap-hazard, lackadaisical operations of the band leader for this one but I guess all things considered I should be thankful for the break.
Since re-meeting on June 9, this week has represented the very least in communication between wild girl and myself. Sort of amazing how things go from talking for hours several days a week together with a fair amount of texts, to near silence. Just as amazing is how that change has happened seemingly overnight. We did talk two days ago on Wednesday, with her actually initiating that. We were both watching the ballgame on television from our own respective living rooms. I kept it very casual and in fact thought we were done several times only for her to come back with another comment before finally saying goodnight like she often has. Then nothing yesterday although that's her 12 hour day at work so not totally uncommon.
My mom had her hip replacement earlier today so I'll update Wild Girl on that while on my way to her area to perform tonight at a wedding. I'm kinda sad that I don't really miss it all that much. Perhaps this has forced me to take off the rose colored glasses and look more clearly at what I saw and reported back in June when this all started. I'm not giving up, mind you, just that I guess if it were to stop completely, I won't be missing all that much. I honestly don't think that will happen. I more see that we'll cool things for awhile, they may pick up again and we'll just go on the cruise, likely have fun and rekindle or that will formally finalize it. I was very clear about her not backing out if she agreed to go so I highly doubt she will. Plus she just told her parents 5 days ago! The bigger dilemma would come should I meet someone else and have another 3 month run like this one. That would be difficult, but let's not put the cart before the horse.
Of course, I might end up talking with her this weekend and whatever is bothering her could be passing and things could be back to normal - who knows? I think if anything I'm more sad about potentially losing SOMEONE to do what Wild Girl and I have been doing - less than losing Wild Girl herself. Make sense? And that may sound crass but I'm just trying to be as brutally honest as I always try to be. Of course we cold go right back to where we were in July and August as well - who knows? Time will continue to tell. Plus, with 10 gigs, well now 9, starting me in the face over the next 10 days, who knows who I might meet along the way?
Just thought I'd provide that update. Dang, I do have to admit that these are not nearly as much fun as some of the past Tuesday morning updates I've had. Once you start... LOL
Don
You are dating lovely, wild girl isn't a gf. So just enjoy what you have and it's ok to have great sex too and keep that dating R at that level.
I am thrilled she is going with you on the cruise as that will be fun too.
V
I was talking with a friend last night when I said "I really want June and July back again." Perhaps even August can be tossed in there as well - actually it should be. But starting with mid-September things have gotten a bit more poopy for me - and I'm not at all just referring to Wild Girl - although it's possibly, or likely related?
Music-wise I made it through my 10 or 11 gig string pretty well, but beyond that... Just not a lot of fun. Clearly I've got some sort of cloud over me. The main guy I gig with clearly has something going on as well and he's been zero fun to perform with. I won't go into details but he clearly wants to be any place else other than on stage. Well, to me, that's tough schnit. Suck it up buttercup and play to the best of your ability. Saturday was something else for my black cloud. Got yelled at from a cop which again too long of a story but none of it made any sense as he kept saying the road is closed and I can't get into the park where I was due on stage within the hour. Well dude, how do you want me to get to work - by helicopter. So after yelling at me he lets me in anyway! And I see all sorts of other cars driving in the same place. HUH? That gig was beyond bizarre in may ways and was capped off by going to the row of portable toilets before getting back on the road. I barely exit the little unit and some middle-age woman gets in my face and reads me out for banging on her urinal. I was stunned/shocked. I'm like, huh???? Lady I'm 50 years old (little white lie there) do you really think I'm going to be banging on urinals? Do you think that's my way of hitting on you or something? I just walked away making some choice comments about how crazy she is/was. I did have a couple good gigs thrown in, including getting to perform with a great blues guitar player I've not seen or played with in at least three years, so that was fun.
My mom's surgery got strange beyond strange and clearly I need to be more involved in the future. I'm not sure what all happened but after delaying her release date by a day and then another day, they wanted to send her to inpatient rehab for two weeks. This was not at all planned and a shock to my mom. My mom and dad just picked a name and went there. Imagine my shock when my dad shows up in my home office about three hours later in tears saying he signed my mom out AMA and had her in the car!!!! So this is where I got involved to try to straighten things out. She is doing much better at home with home rehab so it worked out, but could have been a real problem and was very much an eye opener to me.
I've got one more busy week of gigs here this week and weekend and then I'll be back to my normal pace. I've got to ride with the keyboard player going through whatever he's going through on Wednesday so maybe I'll find out more.
And then there is Wild Girl. I have no clue what is going on with her. We've texted on and off over the last week but not at all like had been the case in the past. She responds rather quickly and engages but has not reached out herself in at least a week if not two - not at all typical for her. I called her on Saturday as I was leaving one gig and on my way to the second where the cop could yell at me and lady accuse me of banging on her porta-potti
I got VM and left a message. I was sort of surprised to get a text back within about 30 minutes saying "Sorry I missed your call, I was out shopping with D15 and now am at a house warming party. Maybe we can catch up later?" Hmmmmmm, sounds like the normal wild girl. I told her I'd text her when I was home later and she immediately responded "sounds good". I texted her after I got home, as I said, and have not heard from her since. She was very off the grid on Sunday and Monday - the days her and I would often get together. Of course that just made my mind wander.
So then... there is a friend of a very good friend of mine who was D'd this summer. I didn't pay all too much attention when my friend mentioned her to me but also included "I thought she would be really good for you but she says she's not ready to date yet." Other than thinking, that's a wise choice on her part, I didn't think more of it - until seeing her photo and finding out more. Wow, very, very much my type. I won't go into details as nothing is coming of it right now but it really showed me how much more this lady would be inside of my box and how outside Wild Girl is.
It's almost as I had such a fun summer and now I have to pay the price for it! I mostly really HATE just not knowing what's going on. I really can handle pretty much any truth, just talk to me - something I know I've told Wild Girl early on - yet she is who she is. But as I look at it closer, I'm not at all missing her - I'm missing what I had - namely someone to do things with and I won't lie, fun-filled sleep overs. If we were not tied together with this cruise I'm betting I'd not see her again, but as it is... Eventually this will have to come to some sort of conclusion. If she just wants space, I'm fine with that - just don't limp this along until December and then back out on me. Even backing out on me now I know will be headaches for me. I'm not good at waiting, but I have no choice so I'm back in no contact, at least for now.
It's sad on many levels - for example I'll be meeting the keyboard player 10 or 15 minutes from Wild Girls work and home. If this were back a month, I'd stop in , perhaps bring her lunch or even flowers or something - but clearly not the right move now. I'll get back later in the evening and could swing by for a little while since I've not seen her in person for a little over 2 weeks. Again, not something that makes sense now. What I'll likely do is wait to see if I hear from her or perhaps just shoot a quick little text on my way through.
I'll end here but my next post I want to expand on how all of this is just so senseless and widespread. As I read Joseph's thread on OLD and the craziness of all of that. I know I've said it before and I know many of you disagreed with me but I can't help but say that as a broad rule, the good ones are still married. That's not an absolute as I know there are those of us who are good ones yet still D'd. Nothing is absolute, but we make up the clear minority. There are perhaps 15% of us good ones who were D'd beyond our control. The fact still remains, 80% of the people that are out there and single and that way for a reason. They can't even engage in a healthy starting R. I really wonder who the real Wild Girl is? Is she the person I reconnected with back in June or the person I've experienced since mid-September?
Hopefully these black clouds will move on quickly. Oh, look, it's raining outside - AGAIN.
LOL
Wow, hard to believe but in just two days, this Tuesday, I'll have been D'd for a dozen years already. Where does the time go? I would not have known the date had I not looked here - and I'd not have looked here had my ex W's brother and my favorite member of that family not have died a few days ago - of, sadly, stage 4 lung cancer. More on that in a minute. I really have a great life - pretty much everything I've wanted. I'm very healthy, financially set, semi-retired for nearly 9 years already and for the last year mostly only doing band gigs and a few projects. I'm pretty much acting retired this past year. I've had a really great summer, thanks in part to dating and Wild Girl. Still, it's been 12 plus years since I've been in love. Yes, that's in part by my choice but if anything is missing in my life, it's a SO or someone to love me. The rest is near perfect.
Uncle M, as he was known by many, my exW brother, was a great guy and by far my favorite of the family. He helped me greatly during and after the BD with W - his sister. I've not kept in touch with the family other than my step kids and even that R has been less frequent over the years. I've not spoken to or seen my ex w in what might be 8 years. Uncle Ms funeral will be on the date of our D. If that's not ironic. Wonder if exW even realizes? The visitation will be at a newer church 5 minutes from my house - which is 25 minutes from where he lived and I'm out in farm land for the most part. It's odd that it would be so very close to me. I will for sure go. I'm actually totally fine with seeing everyone. I know they will all be surprised while exW will be majorly uncomfortable. Her AP I'm sure will be there as well. They have been married now longer than we were. So much for affairs not lasting huh? I'm still very pssd that I was not told when my X MIL died. That was totally done so exW would not be uncomfortable. Well not this time. Don't get me wrong, I want to go to pay my respects to a man I really did like very much and was great to me. The fact that it will make ex w squirm is just a bonus. My life really is great and it will be so nice to show up looking and feeling great and to see and talk with everyone. If I can somehow drop in hat I've got a 42 year old hottie going on a cruise with me, that will be total icing on the cake.
Speaking of Wild Girl, not much has changed. Today marks three weeks since ive seen her. She continues to respond enthusiastically to texts but we've not had a long conversation about anything. I recieved my new passport on Friday and sent her a pic. She again said she is "really busy" and "feels like she is never home". She said she was going to try real hard to call me this weekend but warned with my gigs and her girls having homecoming plus her working this weekend plus a football/baseball party on Sunday it may not happen. She said "hopefully she can call me on Monday". Something has clearly backed her off. She has always spoken about us being casual - which I'm totally fine with. But at the same time we'd talk for hours several times a week and txt often, including a few sexts here and there. She'd tell her friends about me and think of me often. All of that has ground to a halt for nearly a month now. Still, when we do communicate and when I saw her last, things were mostly normal. That's the odd part - going from before to now. Thing is, what we have now is not all that abnormal for a casual R. If anything the level of intencity before was likely a lot. So, I'm just staying backed off and letting her have space. That's pretty much all I can do, even though I really do miss the connection and communication. So often something will happen or I'll think of something and ill want to tell Wild Girl about it. I really miss that and hope it returns. Even though I've never thought of her becoming a major LTR, I really do see her as a long term friend or FWB is perhaps more likely, but not closing the door that more could happen. I really enjoy spending time and talking with her. It's weird to have gotten along so well every single time we were together, have a strong sexual connection, really enjoy our conversations, and then without ever having a fight or falling out at all, have things cool off so fast. I really just wonder WHY? Why does this happen so often to so many of us? WHY??? I just don't get it. Still, I believe it could all heat up again just as abruptly as it cooled off and still am hopefully we will have our typical great time when we are together for 10 days in January.
I guess it just goes to show, whether a 25 year R or a summer fling, you just never know when someone will change their mind or have their feelings change. I was a bit fearful that it would happen to me, as it has in the past sometmes. At least that didn't happen. Lol. I'll let ya all know how the funeral goes and if I get a call from Wild Girl.
I am sorry to hear about Uncle M. I hope it isn't awkward with the exW, but I bet it won't be. it's usually only as awkward as you make it.
As far as WildGirl. I believe she is doing the "slow fade". She's hoping eventually it will just die so she doesn't have to do any dirty work. I wouldn't even send the random texts and just stop communication. See what happens. I am glad you can recognize the fun in it while it was happening. I don't think she is the one for you, and she doesn't sound much like fun anymore. If it wasn't for the cruise, would you just end it?
Sorry DH....my favorite uncle died about 5 years ago and he was like a father figure to me. It was really hard so my condolences to you.
I kind of concur with G........I would recommend reaching out to her and trying to coordinate a date or meeting. If she blows you off or gives you the "I am too busy" or something excuse then just retract the offer and tell her that when she figures out her schedule to give you a call and after you do that just walk away....ball is in her court. If she really wants to see you then she will make it happen and find time in her schedule. Good luck!
So sorry about your BIL. CMM has been having a difficult week
As for Wild Girl - sounds to me like what we have here is two Love Avoidants in a relationship! You may want to google Love Avoidants. Fairly typical is you will have a great time together (Love Avoidants need love too, as my friend once said, and they can be very seductive) and then you don't hear from them for a while once their needs for intimacy have been met.
Exhibit #1 - when I was dating (ok, call it "seeing") my old Love Avoidant friend earlier in the year. Our time together was great - great conversation, great sex, lots of laughter, he's very compatible with me and I enjoy him a lot. But the minute it seemed like I wanted anything more (I didn't - my expectations of him were set appropriately low as I knew him from a previous round of dating) - but I think me inviting him to share a fancy hotel room that I got for free while teaching at a conference a short drive from where he lives spooked him. So he has ghosted me since! God bless him, I know he suffers from periodic severe depressions and it's possible he just sunk into one of those. But I think it's most likely that he just felt himself starting to care a little too much about seeing me and had to run back into his cave. I don't take it personally at all.
Just pointing out that IF she is a Love Avoidant, things might have been getting a little too good and that cruise might feel like it's a big expectation.
Exhibit #2 - a guy who I call my "Coffee Buddy", not someone I dated but used to chat with at Starbucks in the mornings before work - he was a Love Avoidant and explained to me once why he doesn't usually call a girl for a date until the day of or the day before. He said "If I make a date on Monday for Friday night it hangs over me all week like a dentist appointment. What if I don't feel like going out on Friday when it rolls around?"
So I guess my point is this: Maybe she's just an avoidant in which case this is just normal behavior - get a little too close and pull back. Doesn't mean she doesn't like you or enjoy your company. I'd quit making ASSumptions and just take it easy, see where it goes.
Thank you KML - and Ginger and Joseph as well - but I more often than not very much connect with what you say KML. As for Uncle M - while he was my favorite in that family, I've not spoken to the man in nearly 10 years, heck it might be more than that. So right or wrong, it's not any major trauma for me that he has passed. It's sad but it's not like when my guitar player friend died of the exact same thing last January. It's really a bigger deal that I'm going to walk in there and it's going to clearly be - OMG, Don is here!!!!!! I've not seen any of them in 10 plus years, or at least close to it, other than the kids.
I'm just in a funk. It's been one of those periods where everything seems to be going wrong where for June, July and August I felt better than I've felt in many years. I thought my life really was finally getting back to full on good. Guess again. Perhaps I'm just seeing the bad but it just keeps happening. I got a call to play sax on a new CD for someone I really am thrilled to play for. Again, these are not people like Billy Joel or something but she has won a Grammy (in a non-televised category), been on the Tonight Show with Leno, etc. So I'm doing the parts and that's a done deal. However, it looked like I might have the chance to meet up with all of them at really famous recording studio that I'd kill to record at. I'm a studio owner since the 1980s so for me this is a HUGE Deal. Of course, my schedule just won't allow it. I am soooooo bummed as this is what being semi-retired is all about - doing things like this. Soooooo bummed. The dates I was first given by a mutual friend would have worked but when I got the real info, they just don't. Instead I'll just do the parts in my own studio and ship off the tracks - which is very common these days. I just so would have loved to attend and be part of the full session, hang out with a small group of fun people (including another FWB that I've not seen in 8 months and not had benefits with in nearly two years) - almost as exciting as going on a week long cruise - I'm not kidding. But oh well, it's not June anymore so of course it's not going to work out.
As for Wild Girl, I think you are hitting it on the head KML. I don't take it personally, at least I'm trying not to. It's even odd because why would I care if she's not someone I really see myself falling in love with. Yet, I really, really was enjoying it. The thing is, KML you are describing her very well - right from the beginning. Early on, like within the first month I remember setting up a Sunday/Monday date with her and by Tuesday before she was hedging on it. I then stopped at her house that Thursday and she was back to hedging. Thing is, she could not even tell me why. I was like, what's up? She struggled but just could not say why she was not sure. She finally just said "I'm just tired and I get like this when I'm tired" So I left it at that, she gave me an amazing kiss goodbye, and seemed normal. Sunday came, she said she was still debating on what she wanted to do. I just said look I'm not going to beg you and this is starting to not be fun if you don't want to come out then don't. Of course she immediately then said she was and also of course we had an amazing time - really, really, really a lot of fun. So odd that it was major anxiety for her leading up to it but after she did, she was so glad and happy.
She's clearly had walls up from the start. I have to wonder if she has EVER had a regular/traditional relationship. I really don't think she has. She married her husband when she was about 25. That sounds like it was a train wreck from the start and she now says she only married him because she didn't think anyone else would want her and she didn't have selfesteam. She finally got herself out of that and a year or so later started dating the guy who recently had the baby. But even that seemed "off." I don't think he was ever referred to as her boyfriend. Perhaps I'm wrong. He then dumped her saying she was mean to him or just not nice to him. Everyone else seems to be a casual hookup thing or guys around the county. She had one in the Midwest, one that would fly her out for New Years or her birthday. She calls one of them her "besti". However, she's not seen any of them or done any of those things for over 4 years.
Remember my first words here... saying she's broken. This is what I mean. Ginger may be correct in that she's doing a slow fade but then why be so nice? That part makes no sense. Like I call once, don't even leave a VM and she's texting me back saying "sorry I missed your call, maybe we can catch up later..." etc. Why not just ignore me? Even her texts, I can tell when she's annoyed or doesn't want to talk from how she texts and this is not it - lots of "!" and lots of emjois and her typical excitement with wordy texts. So she's clearly not done with me - just not at the level she was a month or two ago.
So what would I do if I didn't have the cruise? I'd just let it go and not contact her. That's just not an option now. In fact, October 1 was the end of the promotion and the start of the 50% refund period for anyone who cancels. The flights were purchased as non-refundable - which only makes sense as we are the band and we are contracted to be there. Why purchase a higher class fare when they don't have to. So if she pulls out now, it will be a huge deal - even if I had someone just as fun to slide in her place - it would still be a huge deal to get done and I'm sure costly.
The thing is, I really deep down do think this is just her. This is how she rolls. If she was not wanting to continue she'd either say so or go no contact at all. I really can't imagine she's planning on not going in January. I think at this point she just sees me like these other guys who she will not see or talk with for months and then just start right back up. Even three weeks ago when I could tell things changed, even though she was not texting or calling, she ran right up and gave me a hug and kiss. I think to her, this is all "normal." I've had other girls like this over the years. Now Wild Girl might be an over-the-top case but, I've seen and experienced it before. I guess I mostly would just like to know where things stand. However, I don't think she knows herself - so how can she tell me? In fact, I've exhibited similar behavior myself where feelings come and go.
In many ways someone like Wild Girl is what I'd rather have - just not like this. Hope that made sense. I mean, I'm fine with casual just don't leave me guessing. Pushing or pursuing won't get me anywhere. All I can really do is just go about my life, assume we are good for January and then after that I'm guessing we'll just become friends that occasionally get together and do things but not a lot more.
Finally, KML, I have done a lot of reading on love avoidant and I fit many parts but not all. Specifically I did not have parents that exhibited the behavior that is part of this syndrome. And who knows, if someone was pursuing me heavily I might be doing exactly what Wild Girl is. I don't know how much of meeting her and having someone to date regularly, talk for hours on the phone with, etc. had to do with providing me with an awesome summer. All I do know is now that I've had a taste of that life again, I'm disappointed it's no longer happening. Right/wrong or screwed up as it might be, I just don't often connect with someone at the level that I did Wild Girl. I feel dysfunctional just saying that but it's the truth - don't as me why - it just is.
As an aside, I found out a little bit more about the friend of a friend who is recently D'd. Wow, doctorate, associate or assistant dean of a nursing program at a very prestigious private Catholic college. Sort of the opposite of Wild Girl. LOL. I get the feeling she might be a little too snooty for me, but totally just a guess. I'm not easily intimidated, but with her. hmmmmmm. No clue when or even if we'll end up meeting but from outward appearances she seems like a real qualify woman.
Just want to reassure you Don you've got multiple things going in your favor that make you a good catch. I'd be thrilled to date a guy as financially stable and responsible as you. Not a single one of my post-divorce dates comes even close. (Examples - the restaurant owner who skipped his insurance payment because he "couldn't afford it" and ended up having a leak from a coffee machine that flooded the business downstairs and the resulting financial ruin ended his restaurant. The exterminator who ran his own business but never paid taxes - he'll be in for a surprise when he tries to collect Social Security. The Love Avoidant guy who took a very early retirement payout from his city job at the height of a market run-up then lost most of it in a crash - at least he was responsible and purchased a condo outright so he has a home but had to go back to work to support himself at a much lower wage. )
As someone who has saved for retirement, lived within my means, have no debt other than a modest mortgage (I owe less than a third of the value of my home and it's at a nice low interest rate) - my life would be significantly enhanced just by being with a guy whose finances didn't stress me out.
Thanks KML - I'm having one of "those" days so it was nice to read your comments. The thing is, while my financial responsibility may appeal to you, I'm not sure you and I are the norm when it comes to this area. Something like more than half the people in America don't have enough savings to cover 6 months. I think I recently heard that near half of all millennials (or perhaps anyone????) could not last a month without income??? So while I and perhaps you could last double digit years, most can't and worse yet, many simply don't care. Sad but true. So you find that trait in me to be a good catch, I'm not sure other do - or by reality, they clearly don't.
So I finally talked with wild girl last night. Seemed to pretty much be the same person she's always been yet her actions just seem different. This cuts both ways, she's always been very clear, we are just hanging out, not my girlfriend, I'm not her boyfriend, rarely like to admit we were dating. That's never changed from pretty much day one but her actions were to call all the time, text, send pictures. None of that has happened in the last near month now. She's clearly struggling with something - I can just tell by the way she talked. Still, we might get together this Sunday otherwise for sure talk more as she had just gotten off over 12 hours at work and I was tired as well since it was past 11 when we finally connected. And like in past times, she ended up texting me after we hung up. I really don't get it and it's just taking or taken much of the fun out of it. I know it could come back but now I'm the one losing ambition to reach out. Why is this so hard?
I made a comment on Jospeh's thread about my totally inadvertent return to OLD - well not return per say but quick drive by. I kept getting these emails that I'd just delete all the time. They didn't come all that often but enough that I finally tended to them and sure enough I still had a couple of profiles that while not truly "active" where still out there. As I was deleting or trying to figure out how to, I got a quick message from someone. Of course when you are least looking... LOL, That somehow turned into a lot of lengthy emails with both of us sharing a lot. She seems like very much my type - which often means a broken train wreck - but, like with Wild Girl, it has been fun. Amazing how it was very easy to find her online and I now fear she may have found me as well - which can scare some people off due to something I have in my past from 9 years ago. I'm very open about it but I understand how it can be scary if someone happens upon it and it's not something I bring up that early on. I don't know for sure that she found it but poof, I've heard zero now for a day and a half - compared to her responding back in hours if not minutes.
Do i really care, no, not all that much in specifics. But in general, this all just gets so darn old. I've always been very pessimistic about finding something again and I swear it really is starting to seem like a needle in a haystack. It's almost like I have to decide, do I want to live a pretty happy life with not a lot of down side but do it by myself or get that bit of extra upside followed by drama, depression, anxiety, etc. There is a reason I've been single so long and this is it. Yet it's not deep down how I want to live my life - safe all the time. But this is no fun either.
I know I'm just in a one or two day funk here and I'll pop back up but darn it anyhow, this was such a fun summer and I really want that back - not just in terms of Wild Girl but in terms of all of it. Guess God and life has other plans at the moment.
Hey Don,
I'm sorry to hear that things with WG aren't living up to what you would like them to be, it does suck. One thing that I think a lot of us share are high standards, just by being here we have gained a fundamental understanding of what a healthy R looks like, how people in a healthy R should treat each other, and I don't think there are a lot of other people who have that knowledge. They tend to just wing it, causing them to be all over the place, which can be fun at times, but also can be frustrating.
I hope she can work through whatever she is dealing with (or has changed) and it becomes fun for you again. At least you know to, and are able to, step back and give her space, that might be the only thing that has kept "it" (whatever it is) from ending. Do you know if most of her past R lasted longer or less than where you two are? This could be a pattern for her.
Do you know if most of her past R lasted longer or less than where you two are? This could be a pattern for her.
Oh for certain it's a pattern. I really have to wonder if she's ever had a healthy relationship in her life. This is something I brought up here after nearly day one. Nearly everyone is/was a "buddy" or "hanging out" etc. Even the only guy I think she feels she ever loved I don't think had a traditional R with her. She is EXTREMELY independent - which is part of her appeal as she doesn't at all need a man. After KML re-brought up the whole love avoidant thing, as i re-looked at all of that, it's totally clear. As strange as it may sound, I think she pushed herself out of her comfort zone with me already. I don't know if she's scared of being hurt, dumped, intimacy, getting close, or all of the above. It's all clearly there and I knew it all along. That doesn't mean it still wasn't a lot of fun while it lasted. That's my point. But dang it gets old having to always find someone new. That was fun years ago, just not anymore. Now, all that said, part of her "pattern" I strongly believe also involves coming back. I've had other FWBs like this and something tells me she will drift back in as unexpectedly as she drifted out. I just have to either decide I can live with or cut her off.
So, to be clear, it's not Wild Girl that I miss near as much as just the whole rigmarole that upsets me. It's no different than all that you've gone through, or Ginger or any of us. That's why I pretty much had given up and really didn't try at all for several years - well didn't try much anyhow. But then you get a taste of it and it's like dang, I've been missing out - but that means both missing out on the fun as well as "missing out" (not) on the pain.
I also forgot to comment/report on the funeral for ex w's brother. I was never nervous, or worried or anything of the kind. That said, my assumptions were wrong. I assumed people would be very surprised that I was there, would be rather happy to see me and my ex would be very uncomfortable. It didn't appear I was correct on any of those! While everyone was very nice and welcoming, I didn't get the feeling they were all that surprised nor happy to see me and THEY were a little uncomfortable. Ex W on the other hand came right up to me and gave me a hug. I've not seen in or hugged her in I'm betting 8 years. The people that were there that I still see on a regular basis, including step son and daughter were their normal selves. I was very much my normal self. Of course it was a funeral so it's not like we were at a wedding or something - just was, I don't know, not what I expected. They were all friendly but almost like because it was the right thing to do? I don't know, just not what I was expecting.
As for ExW she does not seem to be aging well at all. She was walking very stiff and when i commented she said it was again her back - something she struggled with throughout our time together. She is still with the guy she had the affair on me with 13 years ago now. I don't say this to be snarky at all but she is just not aging well. If I had to guess she is really struggling with menopause. She was very puffy and just not at all the beautiful, vibrant person I knew. She always has had health issue and they may be catching up with her. Steroids can also have the effect that I saw. I didn't feel "good" about this mind you but it's not like she was the same hottie I married. Then again, we all age and she is 54. I'm just blessed with great genes and look much younger than the 55 I am.
And finally, the OLD girl actually did message me back and wants to meet for a drink or lunch next week! LOL. It's soooo funny how this happened as I was not at all trying nor am I back to OLD. We have hit it off well over email, including multiple shared interested - aviation, travel, etc. She is totally my type looks wise. I think she may be yet another of the somewhat outgoing, free-spirit, type women but who knows. I was mostly bummed and upset because I assumed by past was coming back to bight me - something I understand but now do informational talks about. Drug addition is a disease yet even someone like me, clean for 9 years, can be looked at differently. I also see she had to take out a restraining order on someone a few months ago so I'm sure she is very careful - or at least should be - and rightfully so. I told her about the cruise and she responded how jealous she is and wished she could get an offer or a deal like that. Oh girl, you have no idea... You never know what the future may bring!
Hey don
Congratulations on 9 years clean. I think you are a very strong and honest person on here and i respect your posts very much. I know you have felt that you are an emotionally/committment avoidant personality. Do you find any relationship between that and your past addiction? Did the addiction contribute to that in any way or was it there to begin with and perhaps led to the addiction?
My ex was/is a secret and very high functioning alcoholic but im pretty sure also had a pain pill addiction (700 dollars a week). I am very much afraid of addiction now. For me, it would be a red flag because i am afraid of that coldness or avoidance or emptyness (hard to describe) that went with it.
And heres something weird. When i was dating, i met a guy whose demeanor reminded me of my ex. I cant put my finger on it. He was attractive, successful, strong, interesting. Hero type of profession. But something about the way he was detached. Like he was flirty. He kept the date going. But i could sense something .i knew he would be a distancer. When i asked, he admitted to having a problem with addiction in the past.
Regarding the funeral, i think dont think much about anything. Mourning a family member often makes everything else surreal. People are usually too affected by grief to really think or focus much on who is there.
What you are saying makes a lot of sense about wild girl. You suspected that going in though. I think its a good idea to keep your options open now and date! Wild girl is distancing and giving signs of fading out, so this is fine. Maybe she self sabatoges? Maybe she doeant want a relationship? Regardless it doeant matter. Her actions do. And the beat thing is to go by what works for you.
I know you have felt that you are an emotionally/commitment avoidant personality. Do you find any relationship between that and your past addiction? Did the addiction contribute to that in any way or was it there to begin with and perhaps led to the addiction?
No I don't believe it did nor have I seen any reported correlation of being avoidant causing addiction. Very clearly in my case it did not. Now, on the reverse, addiction often will cause people to pull back, retreat, give up friends, family, loved ones. They most certainly retreat into their addiction. So if you saw this in your husband it is very likely caused by his addiction. That said, being avoidant does not, in my view, cause addiction.
As for me, I've long had these traits - way before I knew what they were. I've always been very independent, enjoy being on my own, very selective of friends, etc. Now, with people that I connect with I am extremely outgoing, friendly, etc. I am also that way with people I am interested in romantically. However, for whatever reason, one of two things have been common - I pursue, pursue, pursue, and remain very interested right until the person says "Okay, I'm yours, you have me, I want to be with you, let's get serious" after which I sometimes to often lose interest at that point. The other thing that has happened is I can stay invested so long as pressure is not put on me - like where is this going, let's take this to the next level and especially "I want to get married again, that's the end goal" - it's not for me.
I was thinking today how sick I am of this always ending this way. I feel so much like Ginger has said - waiting for the next shoe to drop. It always seems to happen - just like it has with Wild Girl. Even as things are just starting out with this OLD lady that I'm supposed to meet with week - I'm already waiting for her to ghost me, pull back, say she's changed her mind or whatever. And that's because that's what always seems to happen. The thing is, I wonder if it's because I'm choosing people who are often free spririt types, bounce from one thing to another, are not looking for commitments themselves. Those who are really looking for a relationship often turn me off. I see them as clingy, or over bearing, needy, etc. The thing is, those types likely would not do what those I find an interest in do. By their nature, they are all in, clingy, needy, really want someone. That's somewhat how my ex W was. So should I be at all surprised when the types of women I am attracted to get a whim to move onto the next best thing. Not sure how this all came to me but it did and I wonder if I'm not on track with that.
What you are saying makes a lot of sense about wild girl. You suspected that going in though. I think its a good idea to keep your options open now and date! Wild girl is distancing and giving signs of fading out, so this is fine. Maybe she self sabotages? Maybe she doesn't want a relationship? Regardless it doesn't matter. Her actions do. And the beat thing is to go by what works for you.
I think she does self-sabotage. I think that's been her all along. She's long said she's not looking for an R - those were her words though while her actions were very different. What she is saying really has not changed, what has changed is before, while she was saying we are not dating (just hanging out, etc) she was very into me - likely too much so. Her words kind of said one thing while her actions said another. I'd say her actions are now more matching her words. It's just disappointing as it was a lot of fun and I was hoping it would continue. Now being connected with this cruise adds another level to it. It's all guesses and mind reading but I have a strong feeling she's met someone and has done this weekend what her and I did over the summer. I'm betting it will be another casual thing and likely drop, but something tells me she's doing with him what she was doing with me. She really is broken - look at my early comments and I used those words. Still I got sucked in because it was fun - and well to be honest, the amazing sex didn't hurt. Knowing her family also helped. I guess just as much, it's the not knowing. I've never been good with that in all aspects of life. I want to know what's going to happen next. If I knew, that would be helpful to me. As it is, I'm left guessing.
I'm hoping my lunch date for this week doesn't bail. While deep down all of this is no huge deal, I'm just wore out from it all. Who would ever have thought that at age 55 I'd be going through this high school-like crap? Do people ever grow up? I expect teenagers to ghost and change their mind and have a new boyfriend or girlfriend every month, etc. But at this age, really? Is it too much to ask to just find someone who is as honest as I am and won't play these games? Clearly it is - just look at all of the stories on here!
Those who are really looking for a relationship often turn me off. I see them as clingy, or over bearing, needy, etc. The thing is, those types likely would not do what those I find an interest in do. By their nature, they are all in, clingy, needy, really want someone.
I guess just as much, it's the not knowing. I've never been good with that in all aspects of life. I want to know what's going to happen next. If I knew, that would be helpful to me. As it is, I'm left guessing.
Don, these sentences really jumped out at me. I'd be interested in finding out more. Why do you see those really looking for a relationship as clingy, overbearing, needy? And how would these traits manifest themselves for you?
And what is it about the not knowing that troubles you? How do you know what it going to happen next?
It's my understanding that many Avoidants become so because they had a high maintenance parent (like a borderline, or alcoholic, or just smothering). Because of this they fear being "engulfed" in a relationship.
Often the tip-off that you're dating an Avoidant is when something happens in your life where most people would offer condolences or assistance, the Avoidant goes silent. I've told three of my Avoidant friends or exes about the boyfriend's cancer. Two have said nothing, one has just forwarded me a couple of political items he knew I would enjoy.
I wonder the same thing as Focus does. Why does someone who really wants a relationship needy and clingy? They don't go hand in hand. I am not needy and clingy, but I would really love to share my life so someone, because it adds so much. There is definitely an in between. I don't think there is nature in those who want to share their lives with someone. That's a pretty broad generalization.
It's my understanding that many Avoidants become so because they had a high maintenance parent (like a borderline, or alcoholic, or just smothering). Because of this they fear being "engulfed" in a relationship.
Often the tip-off that you're dating an Avoidant is when something happens in your life where most people would offer condolences or assistance, the Avoidant goes silent. I've told three of my Avoidant friends or exes about the boyfriend's cancer. Two have said nothing, one has just forwarded me a couple of political items he knew I would enjoy.
Ah, kml...thank you. This is so interesting for me. I think XH's father is an alcoholic. He was put on some sort of medication for his alcohol consumption and should have stopped drinking altogether, but he just carried on a previously.
There was a point in my life when a lot of difficult things happened for me (family deaths, court case against an ex work colleague, lost a job I had done for a long time and really loved, plus others), and XH was just not there for me, to give me any support. He just sort of disappeared, emotionally. In fact, it was shortly after that they As started.
Don, these sentences really jumped out at me. I'd be interested in finding out more. Why do you see those really looking for a relationship as clingy, overbearing, needy? And how would these traits manifest themselves for you?
I wonder the same thing as Focus does. Why does someone who really wants a relationship needy and clingy? They don't go hand in hand. I am not needy and clingy, but I would really love to share my life so someone, because it adds so much. There is definitely an in between. I don't think there is nature in those who want to share their lives with someone. That's a pretty broad generalization.
I didn't write that or state that very well at all. It's not at all simply someone wanting an R that that repels me. That's not it at all - it's how they act. It's someone who can't be by themselves, someone who is too anxious, is too excited, and acts clingy, etc. It's that type of thing that pushes me back. So if she is like "I'm pretty busy this week but maybe we can get together over the weekend" i'm fine with it, but if she's like "I can meet you anytime this week" or "I can cancel the plans I have so we can go out" and maybe those are even bad examples but I guess what I'm trying or even struggling to explain is someone who is happy with their life but is willing to add to it I'm fine with, someone who is not happy unless they have a BF, wants me to make them happy, make their life, etc. really puts me off - as well as other things.
I can just sense it - sometimes it's overtly clear. I had one woman, several actually, who as soon as I'd pick up my phone or logon to Facebook within minutes there would be a message - "Hi how are you, what are you up to?" It got so I didn't even want to log on anymore. I finally turned off messager so they could not see when I was on. It's being too available, it's wanting too much. Now, this girl was smart enough to back off some - and I did finally say, "are you stalking me or something, seems like you know when i pick up my phone," but I caught it again this weekend as she's really trying to get me to do that trip that I mentioned to Nashville to record. Yes, she's being nice, but she also knows Wild Girl is not currently in the picture and I think she thinks this is an opportunity. Now, I also only find her partly physically attractive. She's not the greatest kisser or intimately either. Personality wise her and I connect well, and I know we'll have fun together. I just don't know that I have more than friendship feelings for her.
So I don't know - i'm the broken one here - you guys tell me. I just get this uncomfortable feeling in my gut - a feeling that I don't at all get with Wild Girl and some others. A feeling that this does not feel good, I feel cornered and pressured and want space. BACK OFF!
Ginger, it's hard to tell just from knowing you here - plus you are much more honest and open here and the things you may say to us you would not to others. That said, I think it comes across that you really want an R. I know I've said that before to you. I know for sure some of your previous guys have sensed it. It remains to be seen if current guy is starting to. It stinks, it sux, you should be able to be honest, yet with some people - including guys like me - it can be the kiss of death.
I hope that clarifies better - Suffice to say, I'm not at all claiming of feeling that anyone wanting an R pushes me away and/or is needy or clingy. Some clearly are, but not even close to all.
And what is it about the not knowing that troubles you? How do you know what it going to happen next?
I've always been this way. Does that make me controlling? And it's not just with Rs it's with life. I am a planner. I don't at all like it when things don't go well or go as planned. Early in my work life if projects would not be going well or something was wrong or off, it would really bother me, i'd not be able to sleep. I remember some 35 years ago not getting a track "right" for a recording and I could not sleep until I woke up in the middle of the night, drove the studio and re-did the part. Now I'm not nearly that OCD these days, but it's an example. Again, perhaps not the best example but with Wild Girl, if she would just say something like "Don, I'm busier, I've been hanging out with a few other people, the girls are back in school. I still want to go on the cruise with you, don't worry i won't bail on you, relax, we're good" I'd be fine - TOTALLY FINE. My fear is she's going to limp this along and bail after it's too late. The thing is, if I push her, she will bail for sure, so all I can really do is quietly try to lineup a backup and start dropping hints to the promoter I might be making a switch. My gut tells me in the meantime, whatever is going on will run it's course and we'll be fine in January.
It's my understanding that many Avoidants become so because they had a high maintenance parent (like a borderline, or alcoholic, or just smothering). Because of this they fear being "engulfed" in a relationship.
I've read that many times myself and can say that in my case it's clearly a piece of the puzzle that does not fit. I did not at all have the type of parents that fit the mold of an Avoidant. In fact if anything, at least my mom is avoidant herself. She nor my dad had any sort of addiction issues (other part that doesn't fit for what happened to me) neither relied on me in an unhealthy way. Just none of it. Read what the parent of an LA is supposed to look like and it's nothing like my parents.
I've never heard about the LA also not being able to relate to life struggles either. Clearly that was not my reaction to even your news KML with CMM. Perhaps like my addiction, where the main pieces fit but some of the others do not at all fit the typical addiction mode, I don't have all of the LA traits either. And I may not even be one. Remember I'm self diagnosing here. I just first came to believe this might be the case when I first read about it and that first article so clearly outlined my ex W (a love addict) and me. I was like OMG, that's US - that's ME!!!! I really do think I could and would overcome it with the right person. So far, I just don't connect with many "right" people, those I do connect with sometimes appear to be broken and unhealthy, and even the ones that do seem to come together, something falls apart.
I'm hoping my lunch date for this week doesn't bail. While deep down all of this is no huge deal, I'm just wore out from it all.
And, so what do you think has happened - well sorta? Again, It's like either I can sense it, I find the wrong women, or nearly everyone does it so it's so common. Anyhow, short recap, while removing my very old profile from an OLD, had someone contact me. We had quite a bit of conversation, somewhat quick responses and very lengthy on both of our parts. We agreed to meeting, she suggested this Tuesday or Thursday for a drink. As the week went on her responses took longer to arrive and some got shorter in length. She suggested Tuesday or Thursday on this past Friday afternoon. I responded Saturday morning with Tuesday working and suggested details. I didn't hear back over the weekend and left it hang. Got a message through the system (even though I did give her my number days ago already) saying:
"Can we plan on meeting next Tuesday by chance? I have a lot going on this week! Also I will answer all of your questions and touch on the topics that we have been discussing when we meet if that’s OK too..."
Now, she is laid off and seems to have nothing but time on her hands. I'm going to take her at face value here but something just tells me we will never end up meeting. Let's see if I'm right or wrong. I just get the feeling something is spooking her, she's met someone else, or she just likes the attention or who knows what. Just something as a simple one hour meeting for a drink needs to be put off for a week? Odd, and certainly not the actions of someone anxious to meet me.
As for Wild Girl, no call and not even a response to my text on Sunday. I won't go into all of the details of why I suspect or perhaps even know (okay very strongly suspect) but I'm near positive she had a sleep over with someone on Saturday and into Sunday. Her presence or lack of on social media is somewhat a giveaway. She has even said as much when with me. She may have been with him when I texted or she just didn't want to talk with me after a weekend with someone else. As I wrote today on another thread, at this point, I just want this cruise to go through - for all sorts of reasons. After that, whatever - bye. I am back to looking for a replacement and may test the waters or at least let out a few comments that I might need to ask for tickets to be done with a new name and see what kind of a response or as I fear, what kind of blow back and financial hit I get back.
That cloud that I felt move in over my head two or three weeks ago now just doesn't seem to want to move on. I have thoughts on that too but this has already gotten far too long!
Comments are always welcome. I'm going to respond to the new OLD girl tonight. Any suggestions on that are welcome.
There was a point in my life when a lot of difficult things happened for me (family deaths, court case against an ex work colleague, lost a job I had done for a long time and really loved, plus others), and XH was just not there for me, to give me any support. He just sort of disappeared, emotionally. In fact, it was shortly after that they As started.
I can't remember if it was you or someone else who asked me about LA and addiction being related. I again very strongly believe that what you are seeing when an addict cannot be there for family or for you when bad things happen is a function of addiction. LA for all I know may do the same but a hallmark of addiction is the booze or the drug comes before anything and everything else. I "think" I've been a LA much of my life but it was only when I was addicted to opioids that I failed to visit my wife in the hospital when she had a one night admission. I still feel bad about that to this day. It's something I never did before and never would do now that I'm clean and sober - yet in full blown addiction it wasn't even an afterthought - my addiction kept me at home with my drugs rather than visit her. That happened clearly because of addiction NOT love avoidant behavior and would never happen today - never.
KML perhaps you'll feel differently but I think addictive behaviors in this care are being confused for LA.
My 10 cents DH she is offering an alternative day...it's not like she is saying she is busy and is not sure of when. If she offering up an alternative date and time, and it fits your schedule then make it happen. If it doesn't then suggest something different.
You may not be an Avoidant - although if your ex was really a Love Addict, they often end up with Avoidants because they're the only ones willing to pursue the Avoidants that hard.
You may also just be prudent and encountering a lot of Clingons. Some women can be very needy and dependent, I won't deny that, and if those are the women you're cool to, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
I'm not an Avoidant or an Love Addict, but in my old age, I find myself loving differently. Not sure I have it in me to be romantically infatuated or swept off my feet any more. I want someone stable, who appreciates me as I am, is intellectually stimulating, and at least reasonably good in bed. Speaking my love languages is a plus. If they share my sense of humor all the better. But I lost my rose colored glasses and don't really NEED someone, just like having the companionship.
Gosh Don, so much of what you write in your past totally resonates with me (from the other side of it all).
The thing you wrote about your EX being in hospital and not visiting her...I had a similar experience. I had hurt my back quite badly (because of the stress of everything happening in my M). I had been told by the doctor I wasn't going to be able to work for 3 months, that I should be lifting anything heavier than my handbag in that period. I wasn't going to be 'better' for 6 months. I had super strong painkillers, lots of one on one physio sessions and then group physio for people with back pain/injuries (someone in my group had had the same thing as me and had been in hospital on a morphine drip). It still suffer from the pain of it 4 years on.
Right at the start of all of this, maybe just a few weeks in, XH was finishing a job. They all have a leaving party. I decide to go along as well, to be a part of it (it's an organised party, not a spur of the moment one). I've not 'slept' for more than a couple of hours a night since the start of it all - and I've not been able to 'sleep' in a bed at all, I've had to sit, immobile in a chair. I'm very, very sleep deprived and in constant pain. The pain killers I was given didn't touch the pain at all. But I go along, have as nice a time as I possibly could, and genuinely enjoy chatting to people. But they can all tell I'm very, very unwell. After a couple of hours, about 11.00pm, I suggest to XH we leave. We have to leave together as we only have one key to the place where we are staying. I give him 30 odd minutes to go round everyone and say goodbye. Then I go to look for him. Can't find him. Try to call, no answer. Two hours later, when I'm out of my mind in pain and exhaustion and really unable to speak to anyone at all by that point, he turns up. He's been taking drugs in one of the rooms. I'm just relieved to finally be leaving.
Anyway, about 6 weeks in to all of this, not having been able to sleep in my bed at all for pretty much all of that time, and not being able to 'sleep' for more than a few hours a night because of the pain, I'd booked to take part in a work event. I have taking my stall to these events down to a fine art. But it's a porter's trolley I take, it's stacked really high and it's very, very heavy. I can't drive, so I'm wheeling it to the train station, getting to the nearest train station to the event and wheeling it there.
I'm self employed, so not taking part would have meant losing the money I'd paid and on top of that, potential sales from the event. So it wasn't really an option.
I asked EX to help me get to the event and back in the car. And he flatly refused. He said he was going to be going out the previous evening. I asked if he could come and pick me up at the other end of the day and help me back.
So, it gets to about 3.30pm and I try and call him on his phone to make sure he's awake. No answer. I try another few times. Nothing. I pack up and head out, hoping he'll show up. Nothing. All the other business owners leave, they're all passing me and asking me if I need a hand. It's dark and it's cold (it's January), and I'm in **a lot** of pain, exacerbated by the cold. I don't have money for a taxi with me, and I'm thinking that if I try and get to a cashline machine or back to the train station I might miss XH. I start crying, then I stop, just totally defeated. Eventually he turns up, 90 minutes after the end of the event. No apology, no asking how I am, just a sort of air of defensiveness about him. He says he's been asleep/hung over because of the previous night.
Next time I see the person he went out with, this person looks really, really sheepish and apologetic (and he wasn't the sort to act like that).
Sorry for taking over your thread with this Don, I don't talk about this much IRL. A mix of being quite private, not wanting to come across as a 'victim', not wanting people to feel sorry for me, not wanting to talk about people (XH) behind their back and when they're not there to give their own version...that sort of thing.
Recently, I've been more taken up with the question of trying to work out why I had been attracted to XH (and probably people like him) in the past. Not any more though, those sorts of character traits really, really put me off someone, big style. But yes, why was I attracted to that? What was I looking for? Was it something that was missing in me? What questions was I trying to find the answer to? What did he give me that I thought was missing in myself?
Recently, I've been more taken up with the question of trying to work out why I had been attracted to XH (and probably people like him) in the past. Not any more though, those sorts of character traits really, really put me off someone, big style. But yes, why was I attracted to that? What was I looking for? Was it something that was missing in me? What questions was I trying to find the answer to? What did he give me that I thought was missing in myself?
Totally understand that feeling. I have bouts of that on occasion. Mine is more along the lines of "what the h3ll was I thinking?????"
[quote Mine is more along the lines of "what the h3ll was I thinking?????"
quote]
Hahaha - me too! In retrospect I can now see what a narcissist he was and how I should have held out for someone less critical and more loving. The stupidity of youth.
I'm pretty sure that there was very little thinking going on above my shoulders 30 years ago.
Many people, hell many of us, tend to find, seek out or at least connect with the same type of people over and over again. That's been written in the literature often.
Focus your lengthy story again certainly is indicative of addiction and the behavior addicts exhibit. Like much of all of this however it says far more about him than it does about you. Honestly, while it felt terrible to you and felt like he was doing it TO YOU, he really was just doing what addicts do. I don't excuse his behavior but I would no more take it personally for what he did than take it personally if he had epilepsy and had a seizure with you in public. I know it's hard to understand but it's just part of the disease process. It's why many say that addiction that the person refuses to get help and treatment for is an actual deal breaker for ending a marriage - much like abuse, etc. It's a terrible disease - but many of them are - cancer, heart disease, diabetes, mental illness - and yes, addiction is a disease too!
Wild Girl put a post on FB that confirmed what I was pretty sure I already knew - that she had a "date" with someone Saturday. I'm positive she would never call it a date - she was just "hanging out with a friend" - is I'm sure what she would say or would/will tell me. Here's the strange thing, her post was much like the ones she made when with me - mentioned what she did with a non descript photo and said what a great weekend she had. However, the larger part of the post showed pictures with her cousin's family and related to Sunday and Monday. But here's the really weird thing - she deleted the post by the time I went back to re-look now so I could accurately describe it to you guys. I really don't think I dreamed it - in fact I know I didn't. Yet it's gone - why? Perhaps she was drunk or drinking when it went up - it was late Monday after our Brewers and Packers both won. Or... I really wonder if she didn't get to work this morning, where the girls all gossip about their weekend and her good friends, who all know of me well, including our future cruise plans suggested, "Hey WG, do you really want a post out there like that?" or after they pried her weekend out of her the question "What about Don" came up. Who knows, I can only speculate, but it's down within 12 hours of going up. Interesting.
So, OLD girl responded right away after I said "no worries we'll just meet up next week" and that we'll touch base later in the week or this weekend. Within half an hour I had an enthusiastic response so she may not be trying to fade away just yet. Time will tell.
I just need to detach, step back, stop thinking and deal with whatever happens. This really is not me - how did I get so sucked in? I swear the only major difference between WG and nearly everyone else I've dated in the last 5 years maybe 10 is, well two things, the much, much better than typical sex and the much less pursuit and much greater independence on her part. I can't say for sure that either of those are the reason - something certainly has knocked me off my typical path and I really don't like it - not one bit. PTSD from the past perhaps? Seeing how so many here have the same things happen over and over and over again? Who knows, but just about every part of this has not been typical of or for me in many, many years and in all sorts of respects. Glad I can at least vent about it here as I'll bet I'd have worn my in person friends out by now. LOL
Sorry to hear about WG Don.......what are your plans for the cruise? I am glad OLD woman didn't fade away, she offered an alternative date so I thought that was good. Have you exchanged cell numbers yet? I would just hang tight the rest of the week and reach out to her over the weekend to make plans. Let her wonder about DH and what he is doing.........:) IF you really wanted to gauge her interest you could have put the ball back in her court and told her to get back with you once she figures out her schedule and left it at that. Either way though it sounds like she is interested.
Thanks Don, I really appreciate you giving your time and writing your thoughts. It sure does help me understand things, a lot.
I'll chat about it some more on my own thread...I don't want to hog yours : o)
You had a summer love, fling, relationship, and it ended. And she didn't do it in a mature way. It's normal to have feelings towards that. What is "sucked in"? considered. Caring? That's human nature. I don't think we can be with someone intimately and have 3-4 hour phone conversations with them and not be attached on some level. You liked her, it ended and it hurts. And that it is ok. And I am sorry that it happened and the way it did. Very immature on her part, but I saw the slow fade coming. She isn't mature enough to handle a real breakup.
As for your online date. You've got to calm down. I didn't think she was putting you off at all. She suggested an alternative day because the proposed week didn't work for her. She was expressing a real interest.
I think perhaps ego is getting a bit in the way. You can be knocked off your feet a little. It's normal. Don doesn't have to be tough guy who doesn't get attached all the time. It hurts when we are interested in someone and they aren't interested in us the same way. All normal human emotions!
Give this new woman a chance, and don't go assuming she is blowing you off or is broken, or whatever. She may not have job right now, but if she is a responsible woman, she is busy using that time trying to find one! If you are going to continue to date, you have to give some credit to women.
Great comments Ginger. I much agree with most everything. Yes, I'm used to and expect nearly everything to go if not perfectly, perfect for me. The "everything" I talk about excludes Rs of any level, where I expect to be lied to, blown off, ghosted, left. Cheating is about the only thing that has not been common. Of course these things typically only happen with those I see as a match or potential match. I tend to forget or discount those who like or are interested in me but me not them at all or as much - like the gal from Thsnksgiving nearly two years ago trying to get me to Nashville.
So what am I going to do about the cruise Joseph? Well I actually watched more videos from that "coach" and his personality aside, his advice for what to do with someone like Wild Girl is totally on. So I have a huge resolve to not contact her again. Up to this point she's never ignored a text or phone call - or very rare. I figure I'll wait at least to the end of the month if I have to. In the meantime, I'll float a trial comment about making changes and start the search again. At least now we are at three months - where I'm much more comfortable being.
My resolve is/was very firm. And what happens not hours later last night.... "OMG I am so sorry! I thought I responded to your txtd message. I was helping out at the bar with bingo and raffles when I got it and then watched my nephews Sunday night amd Monday and must have totally forgot. How are you?" Ugh seriously? If nothing else, THAT didn't take long. We proceeded to talk all night while watching the Brewers game. She seemed the most "normal" in weeks. Interesting that if I'm correct PMS should have ended on Monday. She was honest about Saturday - though no details nor do I want them. So I have no clue. But I can just feel I'm sucked back in at least slightly so. Then got a text this AM too. WTF
Who knows? Did she feel bad? Did her friends at work knock some sense into her? Was her "date" Saturday not nearly as fun as me? Did she create enough distance to release the pressure and anxiety and feel attraction again? Is this just her and this level of casual is just all she is capable of? If it's the last one, I need to adjust my response.
So what will I do? Carry on. I will for sure go meet OLD girl next week. I thought about asking Wild Girl,out - which is what the "coach" suggests - I just don't feel like it. At least not right now. Just never easy is it. Clearly the fact that I asked, she accepted, and tickets were purchased for a 10 day "date" three months from now totally complicates it - at least for me. I don't want to turn into the bad guy here. Totally hitting it off with and continuing to date OLD girl coukd change that but one thing at a time.
Amd on it hues!
Is this just her and this level of casual is just all she is capable of? If it's the last one, I need to adjust my response.
I vote this one, you understandably have expectations from her due to the length you all have been seeing each other, but expectations have never been discussed much less agreed upon (has she ever actually even said ya'll are/were dating?).
Personally, I agree with backing off, I would keep some communication going (maybe a text every 2 or 3 weeks) just to keep communication channels open, I wouldn't mention the cruise until one of two things happen:
1. You have to know she isn't going so you can notify promoter (even if you don't have a replacement)
2. You want to replace her with someone else regardless of if she wants to go or not
I know you feel differently about her, but maybe change the mindset more towards booty call type relationship unless her actions start matching more closely your expectations.
...I expect to be lied to, blown off, ghosted, left.
Gonna throw something in here about the law of attraction...
DH - Your dating coach would say that when she reaches out to make a date and if she gives you some lame excuse or says she is busy then just tell her once she figures out her schedule to give you a call. Then go dark and never look back. If/when she contacts you again ask her out again and if she makes the same lame excuse then tell her the same thing then never bring up getting together ever again. If she continues to contact you make some small talk maybe a couple of messages back and forth then tell her you have to run.
If you don't like that then never contact her again and if she reaches out to you don't respond (you can ghost her).
Or you can just call her on the phone and ask her all of these questions. I personally like the coaches recommendation as you never want to burn a bridge or back baby in a corner
I wouldn't mention the cruise until one of two things happen:
1. You have to know she isn't going so you can notify promoter (even if you don't have a replacement)
2. You want to replace her with someone else regardless of if she wants to go or not
Coconut, #1 is here and has been for a couple of months. We both have non-refundable, non-changeable flights. The cruise itself I think is less of a concern and I could put a different name on the cabin without too much trouble. This cruise is bigger than even I thought it would be. They are nearly sold out of the 300 cabins for the group. I've ran group cruises and I will tell you 300 cabins and nearly 700 people is HUGE. It's like 25% of the ship is this group. It's the biggest one they have ever done - likely because it has the largest number (and I'd say best) bands and musicians. So I'm not even sure what answer I'll get back if I request changes nor the cost that may be involved. They may be nice as heck, friendly, and have no problem with it. Or they might be ticked off at me to the point I'm seen as high maintenance and not worth a repeat. Or anything between the two.
#2 is a larger fear - at least recently. I thought that was where this might be going - that I'd say "see, everything happens for a reason, Wild Girl wants to back out, but look, I found someone even better to go with me!" Now, I'm not so sure. I'm starting to fear I might find someone better and then have a real dilemma on my hands. Remember, she's NOT ONCE even hinted at pulling out. That's not true of some previous dates where she said "I might have to take a rain check" and "I'm not sure this weekend will work" and "I'm still debating about coming out." She's never said ANY of that about the cruise. My fears are totally mine based on these other behaviors and her recent distance. Keep in mind, I know her parents, friends, family and they know many, many people who know me. The last thing I want happening is the word on the street being "did you hear what Don did, he asked our daughter to go on a cruise and she was so excited and then he found someone else (or spin it as found someone better) and dumped her." I've never been that kinda of guy and don't want to be. I'm betting this is the longest and most expensive trip anyone has ever taken her on. A few guys have flown her to a destination for a few days for new years, birthdays, etc. but it's a couple days at a hotel and fly back home - not a 10 day vacation. So I gave my word and my word is HUGE in my life. If I say I'm going to do something or be somewhere, I do it. And what would my excuse or reason be at this point - "she's been distant, I've not seen her for a month, she didn't respond to a text I sent" I mean, that's really the truth and it would make me look bad.
See, THIS ^^^^^^^^^^ is what a lack of communication brings to the table! It causes guessing and your mind running away with you.
Gonna throw something in here about the law of attraction...
Okay, I guess I don't get it. Or, okay please throw it in. Were you going to make more comments or was this your comment? Please explain as I'm not getting it.
Joseph9, you're a special case. I'm going to provide a separate response for you.
LOL
...I expect to be lied to, blown off, ghosted, left.
Gonna throw something in here about the law of attraction...
The thing you said about expecting to be lied to, blown off, ghosted, left. If that's what you're expecting, then that's what you're attracting to you.
DH - Your dating coach would say that when she reaches out to make a date and if she gives you some lame excuse or says she is busy then just tell her once she figures out her schedule to give you a call.
Okay, so first off, he's not my dating coach and I would still strongly caution you against following some to much of his "advice" I've just softened a bit on him and concede he makes some good points. But, as I said, yes, that's exactly what he'd say to do - which is what I thought of. But, you know what, I don't want to ask her out! I just don't feel like it. She's kinda killing some of my attraction to her. I also don't want to meet up with her, not have fun, and then one or both of us will have to dread being together for 10 days. No, I don't think that will happen, but I also don't have the urge to plan a fun date or meet up with her - I just don't. I think I need some time now.
DH - If/when she contacts you again ask her out again and if she makes the same lame excuse then tell her the same thing then never bring up getting together ever again... If you don't like that then never contact her again
See, Joseph this is exactly why I'm fearful for you and how you are being robotic and trying to follow some rules or script. It's like in medicine, we have protocols, but you still have to use critical thinking because not all patients follow the rule book or fit the protocol. Yes, this coach dude would say do this but, hello, in my case I can't "never bring up getting together ever again" as we are going on a 10 day vacation together in three months! So the "protocol" or "playbook" does not apply - which is the case much of the time. This is why you have to learn to embrace these concepts but still apply them uniquely to each person and each set of circumstances.
and if she reaches out to you don't respond (you can ghost her).
OMG now this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No, NO, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! This is why ghosting has become the epidemic it has. I swear, I see all of these anti-bulling campaigns, I want to start and anti-ghosting campaign. It's become so common, it's happened to us, so now we not only do it ourselves but we start to suggest others ghost people as well. No, just stop that. It's not right and just because it was done to us does not make it any less wrong. Do not ghost people even if it is becoming commonplace. Be a man. Be an adult. If I need to end things with Wild Girl or anyone, I am going to be a man, tell them to their face preferably or at least on the telephone, and not just stop responding or ghost someone. I strongly encourage you to do the same. Don't Ghost!!!!!!!!!!!! And don't suggest others ghost!!!!!!!!
Or you can just call her on the phone and ask her all of these questions. I personally like the coaches recommendation as you never want to burn a bridge or back baby in a corner
Yes, now I agree - one way or another, however this ends, I will do it as an adult, up front and with class. That's who I am. I also agree just in life in general there is rarely a good reason to burn a bridge. Not sure what back baby in a corner totally means but making her look bad, etc. If I had to guess, and it's just purely a guess, we'll end up going and likely have a very good time together. After that, one of two things will happen although the end result will be the same. After 10 days together, just like after 2 days together this summer, (unless we don't have fun and lots of sex) we'll again be rather connected and on the post vacation high. I'm sure I'll be hearing from her a lot and she'll be very interested again. Or, we'll just both pretty much go our ways, perhaps still get together now and then but that's about it. I'm betting both will happen, we'll have a post high couple weeks or month but then that will kinda be it other than I'll have another FWB to go to if I need a date for something or want to go to a concert or ballgame or whatever. I'm invited to a wedding in Nashville and my niece is getting married after that, maybe I'll take her if I'm not dating someone else. But that's likely what it will be. But, that's where this all started, isn't it? Read my first comments back in June and tell me if that's not pretty much exactly what I predicted back then.
Jospeh, I think you are down deep a pretty good guy. I just think you're not sure what to do and you've read and watched so much about all of this that you're trying to apply it by like step by step and I think you've thrown out all critical thinking. I think that if someone is getting cold or distant, backing off may build attraction. For certain chasing them will not. But when you've been on one date, had fun, and then don't talk to the girl for a week or more - that DOES NOT build attraction. All that does is build confusion. That's one example of where I think you are just not applying things correctly. Life is not black and white, follow the numbers, connect the dots. There is both art and science to so many things in life. I think you are focusing on the science and starting to understand it but you just don't have the art part down. It's like two musicians reading and playing the same piece of sheet music. Both can play the notes correctly, but one has the artistic ability to bring the music to life, play from the heart, really make it sound great while the other plays the notes. Hope this is making sense. You can't always "see A therefore do B" It's not the simple! At some point you have to meld the science with your art and BE YOURSELF!
Don,
I could be off base here and making stereotypical statements but here goes..
Most women (not all) are "clingy" when they really like a guy. The fact that WG is not clingy does not necessarily make her this super cool, independent female. ( She kind of sounds like a mess) i think there is the possibility that shes just not that into you. (Which we all know is not a reflection of you ) i think it could be something as superficial as age. Im talking purely from intuition and because i have a lot of honest and morally questionable female aquaintances/friends
A lot of guys really like the girl thats not into them. Archie had a hot blond chasing after him, but worshipped veronica (no i dont watch riverdale. I loved the comics) . Maybe the girl acts more natural around them, or is herself more. Or does not care much about the outcome. Makes less demands cause she is not taking them seriously.
Do you want to be taken seriously? Meaning as a serious consideration to be a life long partner to another person?
I dont know your background story on DB. Was your ex wife wayward or a walkaway? Are you at peace with the way things ended? Do you feel guilt? Have you come to terms with that guilt? Have you made amends?
My ex kept his addiction a secret from me. The way he treated me was cruel and his behaviors did serious damage to me and my son. Like focus, I have tons of stories. I dont knownifbhe understand or is capable of ever understanding just how painful his actions were. I always wonder if he will one day truly recognize this and regret it. An apology, acknowledgement would mean so much. The difference between addiction and cancer is that addiction comes with gaslighting. His gaslighting makes it hard for me to even know what actions were due to his addiction.
Again. I dont know your back ground. But could remnants of your role in your marriage, your addiction be part of why you are going for women that are not taking you seriously? Do you feel worthy of being in a relationship with someone capable of loving you?
Yo DH...yeah, I am great guy. I was a great guy when I was married to my X, I just got lazy and took things for granted, that and loosing my identity along the way combined with my X's emotional needs changing was the perfect storm. I don't have any issues with who I am as a person, I can look at myself in the mirror each morning and sleep like a rock all night long.
I do think though "The Coach" is more right than wrong when it comes to this new world of dating. So "Yes" you have made a financial commitment with this woman who seems to be or is wanting to date other people which should be fine since your not exclusive (you and her I don't think have ever had the talk) but in your mind it bothers you (or seems to bother you) because you have feelings for her and might want a relationship Which is why you "need some time" because it sounds like you started to fall for her (maybe her doing this hurt you a little????). So I think taking some time is good as you don't want her to see that your mad or angry or whatever emotions you are feeling. As we all know it is never good to place expectations on people as if you do you will always be let down.
So if you want nothing more than a physical relationship, or a phone relationship (essentially and EA), until you get to the vacation then I think you are going to need to reset your expectations of WG. Take it for what it is and as the coach says "Hang out, hook up, and have fun".........if WG wants a relationship from DH then WG will bring it up
Honestly just because you have made a financial commitment doesn't mean your locked in. Yes loosing the money would be unfortunate and I really do understand but don't let that financial piece put you in a position to sacrifice your own personal values, or accept table scraps from WG, or put you in a position of just accepting whatever she gives you. Which is why I think you need to reassess your expectations of her.
I understand you spent the money on the cruise, and lord,I hate losing money too, and I know you were expected to bring someone. But the problem is , when you invite someone to something like that who is committed to you and was kind of flaky from the getgo, you run a high risk of loss. I for one, don't think you should be shaping your life and relationships right now around this cruise.
basically, I completely echo what J said in his last paragraph.
Well it's mpre complex than that around the cruise, right, Don? The money comes from the company that hired the band, but if Don shows up without a date then he's the guy who wangled his way into having his own room by himself instead of sharing with a bandmate and that looks kinda bad. I get it.
But seems like the solution, IF it came to her bailing which I actually doubt will be the case, is to just pony up for a new gal's plane fare, which seems a small investment and something you can afford. So I'd just quit worrying about it.
I DO think Joseph is on the money though about you having caught feelings for WG. Truthfully, if it was just casual for you too you wouldn't be pulling back now - you're doing so to protect your feelings. That's ok. Just be aware, that it's possible that you are actually ready for a relationship again - maybe not living together or marriage, but a steady monogamous dating thing. If so, you'll need to turn your attention to likely candidates.
Well it's more complex than that around the cruise, right, Don? The money comes from the company that hired the band, but if Don shows up without a date then he's the guy who wangled his way into having his own room by himself instead of sharing with a bandmate and that looks kinda bad. I get it.u'll need to turn your attention to like
OMG, KML thank you for bringing me back off the ledge and keeping me from losing my shlt LOL. I've been trying to explain this concept here for over six months now - must be a dozen times I've tried, yet it's clearly a difficult concept to understand - I guess if you're not in the business. But yes, exactly as KML said - it's more complex - she 100% nailed why. And if it was my money - seriously, giving up nearly $2,000?????? - KML, do you see what I mean how you and I look at money TOTALLY differently than much of the world and how the fact that I might be financially secure means little to most women.
Just be aware, that it's possible that you are actually ready for a relationship again - maybe not living together or marriage, but a steady monogamous dating thing. If so, you'll need to turn your attention to likely candidates
Ding Ding Ding and I think we have a winner! JuJu you asked so many questions that I'm going to try to answer later but you made the comment of she is just not that into you. Well the "problem is" she totally was. That seemed to have changed a month or so ago and is less so now - clearly. I came into this with the totally right mindset. My bottom line feelings about her have never changed in that she's not a LTR contender - never was - very likely never will be. But it was many of you that said, well why not? Give her a chance, etc. And I did and as Ginger and others pointed out we got much much closer as she was very into me. Read back through everything I wrote and that was as clear then as it is the other way now. Her being that into me I'm sure increased my interest and attraction towards her. I was having way more fun that I ever though I would and enjoying things more than I ever thought.
So right along those lines, yes, I have warmed to the idea of exactly what KML stated:
"maybe not living together or marriage, but a steady monogamous dating thing."
I think that's what I'm kinda waking up to here - that I guess I do want exactly what KML is suggesting. Wild Girl is not the girl to do that with. But until I find that person, Wild Girl can still be fun to do things with. We just need to get over whatever bump we hit this past month and then I need to stay in the right mindset. Now, if she does disrespect me or anything of the sort, trust me, I will not kiss her butt (or anyone's) That will not happen.
As we all know it is never good to place expectations on people as if you do you will always be let down.
Really Joseph? That's what it's come to? And I guess I don't totally disagree with you but wow, what a sad world and a sad life if this statement really is true.
I do think though "The Coach" is more right than wrong when it comes to this new world of dating.
He might be, but then that's why I want less and less to do with this "new world of dating." If ghosting is the norm, accepted and the right thing to do, I guess I don't want to be a part of it. I think this coach will help you find the wrong women - the ones that will turn into WAW and WW. The ones that will cheat on you, play you, etc. He will teach you how to beat them at their own game. If so, then his rules will land that girl. I just don't want to land that type of girl.
___________________________________________
So I had another night of communication with Wild Girl last night that was again pretty close to normal. So I continue to agree with KML that she's clearly not thinking of bailing at this time and as we get closer, unless I've completely mis-assessed her including my connections and ties to her family, she won't wait until it's too late to do that. So, really, it appears I have EXACTLY what I THOUGHT I wanted - someone to go on the cruise as well as hang out with occasionally - or as you guys keep saying, hang out, have fun and hook up with. I just need to not get sucked back in - and since I'm rather good at learning lessons, I don't think I will again. And it would appear, the less interested I am, the more comfortable Wild Girl is. It's a win-win.
In the meantime, it's getting more and more clear to me, as KML stated, that I may want more from someone. Perhaps it will be with OLD girl, or with the friend of a friend dean of nursing or with someone I've not yet met. Sadly, I know me and just like how I was wrong about what I thought I wanted before - then got - then wanted more anyhow, I could be wrong again when i get the new things I think I want. Or perhaps I just want what I don't currently have? Who knows but the past seems to be towards that. I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.
As for now, I'm in a much better place than I was a week ago, including being more optimistic about things. Let's hope it holds. I've got to get some work done here and then I'll tackle JuJus questions - because she took the time to ask.
DH,
I want to start by saying J9 was mistaken when he suggested the coach would tell you to ghost someone. He would not, he clearly teaches that when someone is not meeting your needs or offers different terms in a relationship (ie lovers to just friends) you need to communicate to them in a loving way that that is not acceptable to you. If the other person is not willing to meet your needs or come to an agreement on relationship terms that are acceptable to you, then you need to walk away and never look back. You keep the door open by saying if you change your mind then give me a call.
Now what happened to you with WG would have been prevented if you read the book. Coach teaches that until a woman is in love with you and you are in an exclusive relationship, the phone is used for making dates. Those 3-4 hour phone calls you were having are a no no. You are not her therapist, gay male girlfriend or her emotional tampon. (sorry his words). By having these phone calls she knows everything about you which takes away the mystery and excitement. Let's face it Don everything probably became predictable and boring. How long do you think that would last with a girl you nicked named wild girl?
Look I know you are skeptical but I think you would agree you need a new strategy. Like Einstein said " the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result"
Or what coach says "if you keep doing what you have been doing you will keep getting what you have been getting".
That's something to think about.
LOL.......L is right, the coach would never suggest that and if I said that then I was clearly mistaken. It is clear that I need to go back and read his book another time
.
"emotional tampon"
That's a new one I may have to use.
OMG, KML thank you for bringing me back off the ledge and keeping me from losing my shlt LOL. I've been trying to explain this concept here for over six months now - must be a dozen times I've tried, yet it's clearly a difficult concept to understand - I guess if you're not in the business. But yes, exactly as KML said - it's more complex - she 100% nailed why. And if it was my money - seriously, giving up nearly $2,000?????? - KML, do you see what I mean how you and I look at money TOTALLY differently than much of the world and how the fact that I might be financially secure means little to most women.
No, it's not that difficult a concept to get, Don...even for those of us who are not "in the business". Seems pretty cut and dried actually: the company hires you and provides you with airfare and cruise "passes" and you provide names to occupy those spots (yours and your guest). If your provided name (guest) backs out last minute, you look bad because it looks like you were trying to get one over one someone and have a room to yourself which would seem to scream diva behavior, I would imagine. And, not being a musician, I can WELL imagine that many musicians do NOT want to be viewed as so-called divas because you would get a reputation for being difficult to work with and that would not be good for your earnings or future earnings.
As far as the financially secure thing...I'm glad you clarified that being that way means little to MOST women, because I can assure you that there are some of us in this world who value that way at the top of the list of things we are looking for, not necessarily because we want to be taken care of financially but because we've spent our own lives handling our own sh!t and we don't want to have to take care of someone else. I don't mind being an equal partner in the care-taking in a relationship, but I don't expect a man to financially support me nor am I willing to totally support a man, period. As far as "giving up money", if I was in WG's position, I would do absolutely EVERYTHING in my power to still go on that trip regardless, because if I backed out after I had allowed you to commit me to it (thus committing your own reputation to it), I'd feel like I owed whatever money had to be paid back or put out to make the necessary changes. I'm sure not many people feel that way either, but it was drilled in my head from a very young age to pay my own way in life and I would be damned if I would put someone else between a rock and hard place financially just because I was fickle.
I think that people sorely undervalue those sorts (financial security, loyalty, the value of giving your word, etc.) of things these days in our fast-paced, microwave, gotta have it now, instant gratification society. It's totally insane. But, while I thoroughly enjoy my job, I do earn a salary for doing it and I plan to protect that salary to the best of my ability to give myself the things that I need and the things that I want. It isn't on any man (or any other person for that matter) to do that for me.
DH,
I want to start by saying J9 was mistaken when he suggested the coach would tell you to ghost someone. He would not, he clearly teaches that when someone is not meeting your needs or offers different terms in a relationship (ie lovers to just friends) you need to communicate to them in a loving way that that is not acceptable to you. If the other person is not willing to meet your needs or come to an agreement on relationship terms that are acceptable to you, then you need to walk away and never look back. You keep the door open by saying if you change your mind then give me a call.
Now what happened to you with WG would have been prevented if you read the book. Coach teaches that until a woman is in love with you and you are in an exclusive relationship, the phone is used for making dates. Those 3-4 hour phone calls you were having are a no no. You are not her therapist, gay male girlfriend or her emotional tampon. (sorry his words). By having these phone calls she knows everything about you which takes away the mystery and excitement. Let's face it Don everything probably became predictable and boring. How long do you think that would last with a girl you nicked named wild girl?
Look I know you are skeptical but I think you would agree you need a new strategy. Like Einstein said " the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result"
Or what coach says "if you keep doing what you have been doing you will keep getting what you have been getting".
That's something to think about.
I still don't understand what is wrong with phone calls. I absolutely do NOT want to speak for Don nor am I trying to but it seemed to me when he was talking about those phone calls, they were occurring primarily because there was a distance between he and WG physically (as in they don't live in the same town) and they weren't seeing each other in person and therefore were communicating by phone. I mean, I get you and J9 are saying this dating coach that y'all are a fan of says this is a no-no, but if Don and WG were both into it and it was working for them, who cares what the dating coach says?
I like texting and phone calls and no that doesn't mean I'm using whoever I'm talking to as my therapist. I don't need to do that. I just like the idle "how was your day" chit chat and witty banter when I know I won't likely see someone for a few days. As I said on my own post the other day, maybe I'm the weird one. Maybe I'm just some sort of odd freak, but I just think if 2 ADULTS have something that is working for them, some arbitrary dating advice shouldn't matter.
I want to be careful how I word this because I really, genuinely value pretty much EVERY SINGLE COMMENT that is provided here. I may not agree, I may even very much disagree but I value and consider the input and don't ever want to diminish or discourage that. That said, it does get tirering when people seem to just shoot from the hip, give two seconds of thought and maybe even repeat things I think I've clearly explained in the past. Once again, Dawn you do not even come close to falling into this group. You clearly take the time to read, think, weight your comments and then provide them as best you can. You never shoot from the hip, so I just wanted to be clear about that.
Of course just because I may often agree with what KML or Ginger or Dawn say, does not mean I always do, nor that I don't value or want to hear from others!
As KML did this morning, Dawn has now pretty much answered the telephone thing just as I would have. But I'll ask as well, what was I supposed to do? We live over 60 minutes apart - and with a major road construction project going on that Wild Girl really didn't want to drive through, it was taking her closer to 75 minutes to get to me - and another 75 to get back home. We are both rather busy - her being a full-time single mother. The kids NEVER EVER NOT ONCE stay with their dad. If we didn't talk on the phone, we would not have gotten to know each other. I am careful about text - especially early on as it can get confused. But even on the phone, much of it was just mindless banter and fun. It was not deep, serious stuff but even when it was, it was NEVER her crying on my shoulder, talking about other guys, etc. We did have deeper conversations but it was often on the phone - not in person - that she'd tell me how she just had a long conversation about me with her BFF or with her work BFF. It was THOSE comments that pulled me in closer. While she said "We are just hanging out" her other words and actions showed different - like going to a concert with her female cousin and sending me pics while it was going on and calling me on her way home while cousin was driving. She would often text me a photo of where she was and share things with me. It's these things that brought us closer and SHE initiated much of it. I know this coach would say, don't do that, but if I didn't I'm betting we'd never have gotten as close as we did.
Again this coach is mostly running a business, from what I can tell, has absolutely ZERO training other than being self taught by experience, and is selling his books and coaching "services". All the more power to him. Some of his concepts are solid and I'd agree with them. Others, especially these "rules" and "read my book 10 times" I just question more heavily. I just don't think his tactics are for getting a quality woman. I think it's for having better game to hook up. That's just my take.
Again Dawn you are very much on target with saying you'd reimburse me for costs if you bailed. I strongly believe Wild Girl would do the same - or at least offer to. Among the things in the "plus column" for her is she has always from the first date on been extremely generous. No matter how much I tried, she would not let me pay for our first real date and has always continued to pick up the tab, bring things along with her, buy things, etc. She may well have paid for more things of us getting together than I have. She's also never done one thing - even hinted about backing out of the cruise. EVERYTHING toward this end is ME mind reading or guessing - based on her past and now more recent behavior. She did back out of one or two planned events and talked about backing out of more than half of them - but then went through anyhow. I think that's just part of her and her anxiety. I really do think the only way she will bail on me now is if we have a really big argument, or she gets a BF who doesn't want her to go. I don't think either will happen but if they did, I think she'd offer to pay whatever it took to fix. I know if she did, her friends, family, kids - everyone will look at her and say "Wild Girl are you crazy, you're going to back out on such an incredible opportunity?" And I'm sure she knows this.
Yet again, the costs involved have really not been my concerns, it's the logistics of it all - including now assigned seats on Delta. Even if I did blow off that ticket and pay for someone else, she'd likely not get on the same plane - and for sure not sitting with me and the 6 others. What would have to happen is to get that plane ticket name changed. That's really the only legit option.
But let's stop talking about it. It's not yet happened (WG bailing), I don't think it will so what remains now is what I want to do going forward - not only with Wild Girl but with anyone. That's my focus. I still need to respond to JuJu and then it's getting close to time for a new thread - very opportune time for a new thread actually. Life is a process and you learn new things with every R you have - no matter what kinda of R it is. I've learned things about myself and am discovering more. I thought I knew what I wanted and didn't want, and mostly still think I do but I may be wrong or it may be shifting. That's where I'm going to start my focus on for the new thread when it's started. Thanks again EVERYONE for your comments. They are valued..
JuJu, you asked quite a bit of questions, some going back quite a bit in time and I'm not sure are as relevant as you think they might be, but who knows, so I wanted to try to answer and maybe I'll learn something.
Most women (not all) are "clingy" when they really like a guy.
Ugggg, if this is true, then I'm screwed. LOL. Right or wrong, I just am hugely turned off by this. Perhaps much too deep for here, but I guess in someways, I'm turned off by anyone who wants me that badly. I'm hugely confident, as you all know, but I don't think I'm all that. I hesitate to put it this way but I sorta feel like, what's wrong with you that you are into me - or into anyone - that much that you are acting sooooo clingy. Whatever, it lowers my attraction.
Do you want to be taken seriously? Meaning as a serious consideration to be a life long partner to another person?
Well, I most certainly always want to be taken serious BY EVERYONE. Very much so. But that's far different than wanting to be a serious consideration to be a life long partner. Because - ABSOLUTELY NOT am I looking to find a life long partner. Anyone looking to find their next husband or says they want to be married in the next 5 years or looking for their soulmate or want to find someone to grow old with - yeah, not what I'm looking for. For the last 10 plus years what I've wanted is simply to find someone to do things with on a regular basis, talk with, have fun with, be intimate with, etc. If I happen to meet someone that goes farther, I will try my best to not run away from it and do all I can to embrace it. I can see myself possibly living with someone, I have no problem just dating one person and no others as I'm actually very sick of finding new people to date. So that I will do but if the questions is "Do you want to be seriously considered as a life long partner by the next person you date" that answer is NO!!!
Was your ex wife wayward or a walkaway? Are you at peace with the way things ended?
My ex was a walkaway. Knowing what I know now, she was very likely a love addict. She lied to me in the beginning which just added to going against what I'd do now. She was not yet D'd when we met and started dating. Knowing what I know now, I'd never have even dated her. I would not take anyone until they are D'd for at least 6 months. To top it off, she told me they had been separated for over a year and were just finishing the D paperwork. Seemed fair enough. However, the truth was they started separating over a year ago but she ran away or became his WAW only three weeks prior to us meeting. She clearly ran away from him and right to me. I was the only guy she dated after that husband.
Yes I am very much at piece with how her and I ended. I saw her for the first time in I think 8 years last week and had absolutely no feelings. I am glad I am away from her and pretty sure I'm happier. I very much value the time we had together - it was likely among the happiest time of my life, including with the kids, who I am still close with. Thing is, while I was like 99% happy with my life, she was not with hers - and I'll bet she still is not. So I'm not at all happy of being lied to and used, but I'm fine with how it all ended.
Do you feel guilt? Have you come to terms with that guilt? Have you made amends?
Guilt from how I was in the marriage you mean? I'm not sure I feel guilt. I feel bad about some of it, I've learned a lot, I've changed quite a bit. But I was very much who I said and showed myself to be. I told her clearly what I wanted and did not want out of future life - including that I really never wanted to get married again. Yet, she thought I would change or things would change after we were married. Nearly everything she told me was just not the truth. Heck, I'm not sure she even know this of herself. I told her I value my alone time, absolutely do not want to have more kids, etc. She claimed she was fine with all of that while the truth was, she HATES to be alone, wants to be with her partner 24/7 and wanted to have another child - and now has adopted a DOWNS baby who is 4 or 5. Not at all even close to the life I wanted with her. I wonder how long the guy she had the affair with and has now married will hang in there. He's her third H but I will give him this, he's close to being the longest and I'm pretty sure is her longest R.
Do you feel worthy of being in a relationship with someone capable of loving you?
Great question! Do I feel worthy? Absolutely. Again, I have huge self-esteem. I am very worthy of pretty much anyone I chose to let in my life. I'm very picky as to who I let in - and I guess sort of am picky about how worthy they are to be in my life. But, being worthy is different than wanting it. I don't want the obligation, I don't want to put in the work, I don't want the hassle. I love being able to do whatever I want to do when I want to do it. I constantly told my friends that anytime I think about getting or wanting a GF, all I need to do is hang out with them and listen to all of their stories and struggles and that will knock it out of me. I have no problem being alone. The only real downside is not having someone to do things with. Yes I have lots of friends and a smallish family that keeps getting smaller, but it's not the same as having a special someone. I've just not at all found that person and the "cost" is just too high. However, when things like this cruise, or a wedding, or vacation trips come up is when I regret it. I have extra PTSD around the cruise - mostly because I did so many with my ex w, with friends, family, the kids. I was on and/or ran nearly 10 cruises and they were among the happiest times in my life. I skipped one opportunity right after my D but then went on one in 2009 and it was HELL for me - really, really bad going by myself, to the point I never wanted to go through that ever again. I even skipped another free offer three years ago because I could not find anyone to take. It was truly depressing to say no to a free 7 day vacation THAT I PLANNED but it really was that bad for me. That's why I'm so over the top hyper about this one. I'm sure it's partly PTSD.
That's wordy but sum it up with, I'm not looking for a full on R so I mostly look for someone like myself and they are out there - or at least I'm told they are. The problem is, I got in deeper with Wild Girl than I thought I would and it's now making me wonder if I don't need or want more. Using people here, taking away looks, age, everything other than their mindset and what they want, I would NOT be a match with Ginger. She wants to get married again and wants a full-time BF. Being in an R is one of the most important things in her life. I might be a better match with Dawn as she doesn't want those things as much but has not closed the door and could see herself back there again. I could fully see myself with someone like KML who can take it or leave it, has no need to get married again but could see herself with one guy for as long as that works should it happen. That's what I need to find, but in my area, that I'm attracted to, etc. etc. etc. Easier said than done.
I hope all of that both answers your questions, helps everyone better understand me, and maybe even gets me to understand where I am. Best I know right now, I guess I want more than I thought I did, but still not as much as the typical person seems to.
DonH, I have always been honest with you, and I plan on continuing to do so, and I hope you don't get offended.
But you sound like you want your cake and you want to eat it too. You want an R only on your terms, where you only get the fun stuff and none of the real stuff. You just want the good parts of someone, but not all of them. Is that really fair, or even feasible? I mean it sounds all nice on paper, but reality does not work that way. What are you willing to give to make the stuff you want happen?
And no, we wouldn't be a match. But no, I don't want to get married again, and having an R isn't one of the most important things in my life. You are way off base on that. What is important to me, is that when I am in an R, is that a person can take all of me, and not just the pieces that they see fit. I lived in a marriage like that, subsequent R's like that and it is an awful feeling. But I do think our age makes a difference perhaps in what we want, and the fact I have a young child. I do desire a life partner, whether we marry or not, someone who takes the good, bad and ugly and not only the parts they want. That is a true life partner. And you are correct, I desire it. But I think you need ot truly look at the reality. I am not intentionally trying to speak for Dawn or KML, but yes, they are comfortable alone (I am too, just don't want toe alone for the rest of my life) but these are strong women who value themselves and I think they want to also be someone who doesn't just chose the easy and fun parts of an R, and understand that to get the fun person to go on cruises, have good dates, good sex, and to have their partners show consistency, there will be work and commitment to do so.
Don, you have a lot to offer a partner. And there is a woman who has a lot to offer you out there. But do fully capitalize on that and get the most out of that, you might have to get out of your perfect scenario comfort zone.
I get you and J9 are saying this dating coach that y'all are a fan of says this is a no-no, but if Don and WG were both into it and it was working for them, who cares what the dating coach says?
Dawn,
I also understand what you are saying and agree that his teachings are not for everyone.
I admit I got a little defensive when Don totally discounted what he teaches mainly because he doesn't have credentials and was divorced. We all no that's BS because there are plenty of people with credentials that don't know JS.
Coach was mainly trained under Tony Robbins who is probably the most world renown strategy teacher ever. So it's not like he is just making the $hit up. I combine what I learned from DB and him and other various sources and it is working really well for me right now.
Lastly is response to Don's comment to J9, the coach basically tells you not to be robotic in your responses. He just teaches fundamentals so you are prepared for every situation thrown at you.
I just offered up to Don what might have happened to his relationship with WG. Certainly only she knows.
I just don't think his tactics are for getting a quality woman. I think it's for having better game to hook up. That's just my take.
What is your definition of a quality woman? Is WG a quality woman by your standards?
I am not intentionally trying to speak for Dawn or KML, but yes, they are comfortable alone (I am too, just don't want toe alone for the rest of my life) but these are strong women who value themselves and I think they want to also be someone who doesn't just chose the easy and fun parts of an R, and understand that to get the fun person to go on cruises, have good dates, good sex, and to have their partners show consistency, there will be work and commitment to do so.
I don't mind you speaking for me on this one. I'm just fine alone. I was raised to be independent and to NOT rely on anyone else to take care of me or make me happy. And, it is a good thing I learned that lesson, because it just never seemed to be in God's plan for me to be with someone until I was a little older. Sure, I dated and had relationships prior to meeting my XH in my mid-30's but even when I was younger, I didn't know what it was like to have a boyfriend all the time, so I was very conditioned to being alone. I had a full life then with friends and family and I continue to have a full life post D. I'm not saying I don't miss companionship from time to time as I do, but I honestly have no idea if I'll ever get married again and I'm ok with the thought that I very well might not. I could live with that. I think I have a lot to offer a partner. Like Don said of himself, I am very confident in who I am and what I bring to the table and my self-esteem is not at all lacking. And, because of those things, I'm not willing to settle, so if my choice is being alone or settling, I'm going to choose alone every single time. Of course, right now, I have Sparky in the mix and I'm enjoying that but if it ended tomorrow, while I would be sad in the moment, I would eventually get back to a place of "it wasn't meant to be". I was so blessed when I was growing up to be raised by parents who taught me to value myself first and most and to not rely on others for my happiness. It is a good feeling.
Having said all that, I don't necessarily think it makes people who do seek relationships bad or anything. They just think differently than I do and as I say all the time, that is a true blessing, because I'm ok with myself, but Lord help us all if everyone was Dawn. YIKES!!!!!! I don't want to live in a world of Dawns. I want to live in a world that includes one Dawn (me) and lots of other opinions as well.
Dawn,
I also understand what you are saying and agree that his teachings are not for everyone.
I admit I got a little defensive when Don totally discounted what he teaches mainly because he doesn't have credentials and was divorced. We all no that's BS because there are plenty of people with credentials that don't know JS.
Coach was mainly trained under Tony Robbins who is probably the most world renown strategy teacher ever. So it's not like he is just making the $hit up. I combine what I learned from DB and him and other various sources and it is working really well for me right now.
Lastly is response to Don's comment to J9, the coach basically tells you not to be robotic in your responses. He just teaches fundamentals so you are prepared for every situation thrown at you.
I just offered up to Don what might have happened to his relationship with WG. Certainly only she knows.
LH,
I think that everyone has to do what works for them. If this "coach" person works for you and J9, more power to you. I'm not a man so I don't think from the same vantage point that you all do, so I have not looked this guy up nor listened to him. He may well be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I will say, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, based on what you and J9 have said about him, he just seems arrogant to me, but that may be WAY off since I have not taken the time to actually listen. Again, that is just my perception of things I have read that you all have said. Maybe I misunderstood something J9 posted to Don but it seemed to me that he (J9) was saying that this coach advocated just ghosting someone if you weren't feeling it and that just seems immature and childish to me. Not saying that women don't do it, so don't think I'm dishing on men here. I think bad, immature, childish behavior absolutely goes both ways in the dating world.
While I understand your feeling defensive about what Don said (don't we ALL get defensive when someone talks against someone that we respect, like, listen to, whatever?), I also understand Don's point. I wouldn't want to take dating advice from some chick whose goal in life was to be a sugar baby. Don doesn't want to take dating advice from someone who seems to him as a player (sorry for putting words in your mouth, Don...feel free to tell me shut the h3ll up and not talk for you). It's like I say all the time to my friends and family, I want to take advice on specific subjects from someone who has walked a mile in my shoes. That is one reason I value this DB site. We have all been down a similar path, whether we got there the same way or not. I mean, I'm a fat girl, so if I want to go to a work-out class or watch a work-out video or whatever, I don't want some skinny little twig leading it who doesn't break a sweat or breathe heavy. I want a fat chick like me who can't even hardly talk because she can't catch her breath but she's giving it all she's got. THAT would inspire me to keep going, not the 95 pound chick who can run a marathon and still go out and party the night away with her friends. May be a bad analogy but hopefully you get my point...............we all have value in our viewpoints and we have said viewpoints based on our own experiences, reality, perception, etc. And, I end this hi-jacked message on Don's post to you, LH, by saying exactly what I said at the beginning of it, you have to do what works for you and if this person has things that work for you, rock on with it. We all have to take our sage advice from the person that is giving it to us in the form that best works for us.
Dawn,
It doesn't really matter but I just want to clarify two things:
1. He doesn't teach ghosting people. J9 was wrong and admitted so in this thread.
2. He is not a player. Now if you use his teachings to be a player that's on you. His website is called Understanding Realtionships.
The point really is before being critical people should take the time to actually do some research first.
Who is this coach? I am intrigued.
Dawn,
It doesn't really matter but I just want to clarify two things:
1. He doesn't teach ghosting people. J9 was wrong and admitted so in this thread.
2. He is not a player. Now if you use his teachings to be a player that's on you. His website is called Understanding Realtionships.
The point really is before being critical people should take the time to actually do some research first.
You are absolutely right on both accounts. It doesn't matter and people should do research before being critical. I did see where J9 admitted being wrong about what he said but if I hadn't happened to see it and was just left with the impression that ghosting is good is part of this person's message, then that would leave a bad taste in my mouth about said person's teachings. I didn't say the guy was a player. In fact, I said he may be the best thing since sliced bread. Don't know, haven't listened/watched. What I DID say was maybe Don doesn't want to take dating advice from a player and that is a total assumption ON MY PART based on what I read of Don's responses about this guy. He may not think that at all and I spoke out of turn. If so, I apologize to you and Don both for assuming and making statements based on my own assumptions.
My whole point was that we have to take the advice that works from us from the sources that work for us. If this person gives advice that works for you and J9 and whoever else it works for, that is awesome! I'm glad that you found advice that works for you. We are ALL different and we see things and react to things differently. We are also "talking" via text conversations and as I have stated time and again, there is absolutely NO context behind this written word, so you don't know if I'm being hateful, condescending, supportive, nice, whatever. I can disagree with someone and still "hear" their opinion and even respect it. If you all get something out of this guy's advice, I'm glad for you. I'm sure I could site sources that I appreciate advice from that other posters on this forum might well think are just crazier than a bag of hammers and that is fine. We all are entitled to our own opinions and we all receive/perceive information differently.
Ah! Didn't read LH's response before I posted. Found it.
DonH, I have always been honest with you, and I plan on continuing to do so, and I hope you don't get offended.
Oh, c'mon, I think you know me better than that, but thanks for being concerned. Absolutely not offended! I actually agree with much of it. I don't deny it. I'm not sure it's as severe or deep as you may think, but yeah, I don't want all the drama, i don't want to put in all of the work. I don't want to go to some stupid event that I have absolutely zero interest in week after week (once and awhile, sure, that's just natural). Yes! I want a casual R.
Now, that said, I think I am there for my friends and causal Rs more than many people might think. I also, got a glimpse that I can go deeper as I started to with Wild Girl. One thing that I have totally come to grips with is that after being without a true partner for over 12 years now, I will not walk away from the right person. I will know just how hard it was to find her. This past 12 years has really taught me the value of that. So I think it could possibly happen but I think the only way is very slowly, by happenstance, without me knowing it - in other words it just totally evolves and all of a sudden, five years later, it's like OMG, look at the wonderful R we find ourselves in. I just rarely find any woman: single, in an R or married, that I'd currently want that with. I just don't and I don't know how to change that. This is something I am going to try to start to explore in my next thread below.
So Ginger, I very much agree and accept what you are saying. I think you are somewhat denying what I said however. This is probably best for your thread but I think many of us see it. You very very much want an R. I think you would be thrilled if someone that you were in love with asked you to marry him after a few years. If you were not fully interested in finding a partner why would you be putting so much time, effort and energy into it? If you didn't want this so bad it would not upset you so much. You would not try so hard. IT'S NOT A BAD THING GINGER! There is nothing wrong with it. It's healthy. There is no reason for you to deny it - I'm just saying, it's not for me and that type of mindset is not a match for me. But we are in rather different phases of our lives. Perhaps that's why KML is far less interested in an R as well but has found herself in pretty much all ways being a GF and partner to CMM. I think if you'll dig deeper you'll agree with what I'm saying. It may take a year or so but I'm betting I'll be proven correct - and hope like all get out that I am because I think it is what will make YOU the happiest - I'm just not sure it's what will make ME happiest.
I admit I got a little defensive when Don totally discounted what he teaches mainly because he doesn't have credentials and was divorced. We all no that's BS because there are plenty of people with credentials that don't know JS.
That is not the only reason I discount him - only among them. But trying to say that credentials don't matter is crazy. That's somehow the world we have gravitated to. That's where fake news comes from - with people just making stuff up as they go along. But the fact he has no education in what he's portraying himself as an expert in is only part of it. He's all talk. It's totally a business for him and from what I can tell, he's making boatloads of money off of it. However, has it been tested? Has there been research into it? What is his end game? For one thing, while my first comment was indeed after only an hour or two of evaluating him, I've watched more of his videos than I care to admit at this point so it's no longer a first reaction. It seems to me like the total win, the end game for him, is to hook up with the girl. That's the goal line. Well, again, if that's what you are going for, far be it from me to say otherwise. But just as Dawn very well stated (thank you Dawn) while she would not want to follow what a sugar baby suggests, I'm not looking to be an alpha, pickup artist, hookup dude that "seals the deal" with a dozen different women a year. Yes, I obviously missed regular sex more than I even knew, but like is nearly always the case, the sex with Wild Girl got better and better each time. It was fun but more average the first one or two. It was after we "hooked up" a dozen times that it was something I didn't want to give up just yet and clearly want more of. That doesn't happen, well near as much, with casual dating. I'm sick of casual dating. It's almost as the thrill of the chase is as important as scoring. 25 years ago, yeah, I was there. At 55, I'm just not. It's gotten soooo old going through all of this.
Still, after all of that, I think this guy has some great points. I know I've learned and for certain reinforced some points from his videos. And you seem to get that it's just a guideline. That's the "art and science" part that I was talking about. I just really fear that Joseph is still at the robotic part - in fact I'm nearly positive he is. You just can't "see A and therefore do B" all of the time. It doesn't work that way. Since we are on the website we are, and I totally have no allegiance to MWD, but for example to compare her to this guy - there is just no comparison. This Coach is self-anointed, self-trained. He's best at what he does - and that's selling his books and services. He's a salesman - and a cocky, douchee one at that. He's one guy to get some information from - one of many. Anyone that makes him their number one source and head coach I think is going to be disappointed.
Since I'm sure this thread is close to being closed, It's time to move on so I can hopefully figure out what I really want and what comes next. Here's where you can find the new thread:
Here is my new thread