Wow. Another thread! I checked the date and my last thread started in October last year. I guess I'm not spamming the forums all that badly, so let's fire up another one.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2747233&page=11Well, when I step back and think about changes in the last 10 months it's all pretty positive. My divorce is final and my finances are settled. I have 20 months left of front loaded maintenance support after which I will be able to start rebuilding for my financial future. My job is still stressful but it's livable again compared to a horrible situation last year. The kids are doing great overall. And I am doing great overall as well. This is the short version. Turn back now if you have a plane to catch
Little more detail on the above below:
Work: I just realized I hadn't posted this yet. I got a quasi promotion at work. I am a territory sales rep and a territory opened up that was a bit of a step up from one I had previously covered. I talked to my boss and explained why I thought it would be best for everyone if I took it on, and he agreed. At worst I'll make the same income with a little less stress, but realistically I think it has the potential to be a significant raise. Broomstick! (My friend used to text me 'boomstick' as a celebration but it always auto-corrected to broomstick, so now we just go with that)
Housing: Haha! I secured a rental! Only a year longer than I expected. But it doesn't matter anymore. It's done. I get the keys tomorrow. It has bedrooms for all of my kids and my mom, and also room for my 9 foot pool table. It's not on the bus route but my mom is still living with me and can help with that. The rent is very reasonable. No pets allowed, but I wasn't quite ready for that anyway. So while I'm not looking forward to the move physically, by 8/12 I'll be shooting pool and listening to "No Quarter" by Led Zepplin until the wee hours of the morning.
Games: I still love pool. Won a little weekly tournament yesterday. But am also playing a lot of poker. I've been working hard on my poker game. I don't believe I'll be able to play professionally while I have three kids at home, but I fully expect that when my kids are grown I can downsize substantially and probably live on poker and pool income. No kids this weekend so I just wake up, study a bit, play some chess, then play some poker, then some pool, then some more poker, then study some more. That is the world I enjoy, and God willing someday I'll just go off into my own little universe and shut the door behind me.
Family: Kids are doing well. I took the kids on a 5 day trip last weekend up to Northern Minnesota. My dad and his long term girlfriend came along. We went on a trip last year, this is starting to be an annual trip which is good because he's a snowbird that only is in MN 4-5 months a year. This trip is 95% of their time with my dad, and he won't be around forever. Anyway, we did some hikes, got out on a lake, roasted a few marshmallows, and played some games in there as well. Fun trip for sure.
S13 is having trouble with XW and XW's serious boyfriend. I don't know the whole story, but I know that my son has thrown angry fits over there for years now. He breaks stuff, kicks at her, threatens to kill himself, stuff like this. Happens a couple of times a year. Oddly my son has never had any issues at my place. I don't know if he's mad at XW for the divorce and hates the new guy for this reason as well, or if it's just because he has a bad relationship with his mom in general. I can't attribute it to him being 13 because we get along really well. Well, the other day he punched his mom in the stomach and ran away and wasn't seen for several hours. This is XW's version. His version includes the new boyfriend screaming nasty things at him like "please do kill yourself" and how "if you were my kid I'd..." with various threats.
I will pause just briefly and say how awful I think divorce is, how destructive, how unnecessary, how hurtful, and how difficult it is to be a parent and see this needless cross your child is having to bear and being powerless to prevent them from the pain that was inflicted on them. I won't say another word otherwise I will end up with a book on our hands and I don't have a publisher lined up or a snazzy title picked out so let's not go there.
Back to S13. OK, so I'm going to have to take a hard stance on something. The physical outbursts have to stop. Today. Listen, I'm ALLLLLLLLL about finding out what he's dealing with, giving him support, giving him guidance, giving him tools to cope, and so on and so on...but the minute he starts punching a female (sorry to be sexist here, but there is a big difference in my world between him getting into a scuffle with a bully at school versus getting angry and punching his mother in the stomach) he has cross a big, thick line that he cannot cross again. So here's my plan:
Tomorrow I am going to take him 1:1. I am going to get his version of the story. I am going to empathize for a moment. Then I'm going to explain that what has to happen is out of love, the same way that when we were hiking I would get very loud in warning if one of my kids was near a cliff edge, not because I like yelling at them, but because I love them. Well, tomorrow will be a day he needs to remember forever so he doesn't go off his own cliff. Because here's the thing: You DO NOT get to hit people.
I'm going to explain how when you have a dog (we've had a few), dogs are good. There are no bad dogs. There are dogs that haven't been trained, dogs that are being neglected, dogs that were abused...but there are no bad dogs. If a dog isn't behaving, we need to figure out why, and try to fix what we're doing wrong for the animal. That is, until, the dog attacks a baby in the house. The minute the dog becomes a threat to a human child, guess what happens? The dog gets taken to the pound and put to sleep. The dog is no longer under 'family protection', because now it is the threat and that threat must be eliminated. I'm going to make it very clear that I love him and I want to help him, but the minute he makes the decision to curl his fingers into a fist and strike someone else, he is putting himself in a very bad situation. I am going to take him to a mirror and explain that he isn't 6 anymore, that he looks more like me than a 6 year old, and that he is capable of causing real damage and needs to realize that.
There's a bit more of my lecture regarding accountability (not blaming his mom for his actions), but then the punishment starts. I am not going to ground him or take away a toy, punching his mom is not a 'grounding' offense, it is much more serious. Instead I have written up a homework assignment for him and I am going to give him a pen and paper, a bottle of water, and put him in an empty room, and he needs to write out answers to my questions. Some of those questions include things like "Describe ten ways in which your life might be changed forever if you had knocked your mother down and she ended up paralyzed from the waste down and in a wheelchair for life". There are a number of questions, I'd expect that this will take him 2-4 hours to write out. And at the end we'll review and discuss the answers together.
My goal is to give him a night that he'll NEVER forget. And believe me...while I won't be screaming, yelling, escalated, or threatening...I have an intensity which I can easily summon up that will be by itself enough to make our conversation memorable for him.
Once we get through that, then we can come back to what he is dealing with, and talk about getting him more tools. But he needs to know the hitting stops yesterday.
Someday he may end up living with me full time. I personally think that would be best for him now, but it's too early to bring that up, especially when XW is still angry I have 50% time. She thinks he likes me better because I'm the play dad and she's the one that has to do the real parenting, etc. I'd send her a copy of the essay questions my son writes out tomorrow to show how laughable that is except that I don't care.
Well, that's about it for the update. Just another person living life. If there's one thing I'm grateful for about this whole divorce ordeal it is to be appreciative for every little thing, because nothing is ours for long and it doesn't get any better. Excluding of course pool lessons with DB friends.
Hey, Zues, nice to hear from you.
FWIW, my D14 was acting out physically with me after tantrums and raging that escalated over years. It got to the point where I was dialing 911 just to get her to leave the room. I finally found the right therapist for her and it's like having a different child. She started therapy about 8-10 months ago and I noticed a difference straight away. Over the course of her treatment she has really settled down enormously. Also FWIW, her outbursts were limited to me, not her dad. She had her own reasons for that, but the point is, just because your child responds differently to one parent than another doesn't mean that he's just fine when he's with you. He's just learned what works or doesn't work with each of you. My daughter would scream at me that I was weak, that I had let things happen to cause the divorce, that I didn't stand up to my ex, that I was a victim -- that was her way of responding to the divorce.
I think your consequence is an appropriate response, but even with a loving conversation about what's happening there, it might be time to bring in additional help for him. Your son loves his mother, even if he's that angry with her; being that angry with someone you love is confusing for a kid that age. As you know, there's something going on with the relationship over there and he doesn't have the ability to cope with whatever it is. I suggest you get him in to therapy asap -- if he's threatening to kill himself, she's made an attempt before, and he's with her 50% of the time, it's possible the problem has moved beyond your ability to give him tools to deal with it and he needs at least a neutral third party to help him through this time. It's the suicide threats AND her previous attempt that worry me. She set a scary example for him.
I'm glad other things have evened out for you and I hope your S13 finds peace. Good to hear from you!
Hey Zues! Glad you checked in. I am really sorry with what's going on with your son. Parenting is really tough. Parenting kids going through puberty, even tougher. Parenting kids of divorce going through puberty.... YOWZA! I am sorry he is acting out in a physical manner, and as we all know, it's because there is a need for an outlet of emotions. I know you are a great father and will teach him physical violence is not ok and you will give him alternative outlets for his feelings.
Congrats on the house! Sounds nice and roomy! ANd you will be able to fit YOUR outlet in there, your pool table!
Hi Zues - happy to hear you are in a bigger space, but very sorry to hear about your son's anger.
I would caution you about taking your ex-wife's version for the truth. You already know how she's able to make herself out to be the victim - didn't she accuse you of abuse? Listen carefully to your son and make sure he has a safe space where he's not feeling run over or punished.
Also, he needs to be protected against mental or verbal abuse from the boyfriend. Don't get so lost in being a responsible father that you don't see that he might just be the victim here. Threatening to kill himself is a very serious signal that something is wrong.
He's probably old enough to be heard in court about custody arrangements, if you think he would be better off with you. But getting him to a good counselor would be step #1 in my mind.
Best of luck and I hope your son gets through this!
And I got to say - maybe you should rethink comparing him to a dog? It could be taken the wrong way. Kids can remember what their parents said to them for the rest of their lives.
Thanks gang. I appreciate your concern for my son and the support for the family.
Haha, too late, I definitely used the dog analogy the other day. But overall I executed the plan very well. After we spoke I had him write for a while, then we looked over his answers. The part about how his life would change if he permanently injured his mother was really well thought out and I could tell it made an impact. Frankly, just as importantly, he knows that if he crosses this line again he'll answer to me. If next time he gets angry the thought of me tips the scales just a hair towards finding an alternative method of handling things rather than violence then I'm good with that.
Now...assuming that's handled or at least addressed for today...yes, the next focus is on getting him the support he needs.
He is seeing a counselor. He had a visit Thursday morning and will continue to see her. Probably once a week once school starts up again.
Tonight I spoke with him a bit, no longer about the physical part (I made it clear I'll never bring that up again if he never crosses that line again), but rather to try to help him out a bit. Since this last incident there were two minor things that came up that lead me to believe that he is picking fights with his mom every opportunity he gets. My personal take on it is that he's angry with his mom over the divorce and he feels like letting go of his anger is betraying me or himself somehow, like he's saying he's ok with it. No one asked him, he's not ok with it, and he might feel like if he lets the anger go then somehow his mom can get her way, namely that everyone cooperates happily with her choices. So he wants to stay angry at her, and he wants to show her he's angry, and he does things that lead to conflict and finds ways to make himself the victim so he can reinforce his belief that she's the bad guy.
This seems pretty arm chair psychologist, but I've seen a lot that leads me to these conclusions. For example he sent my mom a text. XW had told me that he was grounded and wasn't supposed to have electronics so I messaged her that "Not sure if S13 is supposed to be able to use the cell phone, but just in case wanted to let you know that he just sent a text". Note, I didn't say he sent ME a text, just that he sent a text. I wanted to leave my mom out of this based on prior experiences. Anyway, she must've gotten into a fight with him and asked S13 if he sent me a text, and he must've said no. Because she then followed up asking me for a screenshot and S13 sent my mom another text saying that his mom was now "accusing him of being a liar". All of this was clearly escalatory. Had he just told her "No, but I sent my grandma a text" this would've all been avoided. Instead he caught her in a technicality and was able to say "I never sent dad a text" and then start a big fight so he could be the noble truth telling son that is getting picked on by his unfair mean mom.
This is only one example. If we were hanging out I could tell a much, much better picture. But I've seen enough to get a pretty strong read.
So I told him that's how it looked to me. I also acknowledged that I might be off a bit, so he could either do the same thing and dismiss everything I was saying because I didn't have it 100% right, or he could take anything that I said that was relative and use it to help himself. Because at the end of the day he's the one that has to live his life, I'm just here to help teach him some ways he can not shoot himself in the foot, but he's the one that has to live with the life he creates for himself. We talked about this a bit and I explained that while it is very reasonable to feel this way and natural to do what he's doing, in the end it's not working all that well for him since he's living with a ton of poison in his heart and dealing with perpetual consequences of these conflicts 50% of the time (and growing now that it's including me).
Then I said that since we'd now talked about what didn't work so well (carrying a grudge and picking fights whenever possible to keep it going). This gets a little longer so let's go with the cliff notes. I asked him if he knew much about the lives of slaves in the 17-1800s. He talked a bit about it. He understands that they were bought and sold as property, that families were broken up, that they were beaten and treated horrendously at times. I asked him to think about how they could live their lives in the midst of that injustice.
The point I made was that there were THREE paths they could choose from. The first was to live with anger all day every day, the second was to choose to accept slavery and not let it anger them anymore. Clearly living with anger every day all day didn't seem appealing and what we were on this earth to do. But to shrug and say 'meh, slavery, whatev, no big deal, I'm good with it...', well, that's pretty messed up as well. I talked about the middle path, the third option. That is to be passionately angry about slavery and all of it's works, and to use that anger productively should they ever have opportunity to make an impact...but then, when there was nothing more that could be done with it, at some point to let it cool down so they could still appreciate the moments in their lives that were good.
I explained how I got through the last three years with my mantra of appreciation. How if I looked at the sky and told God that everything I had been given, my life, family, health, shelter, food, job, friends, hobbies, passions, gifts, everything...if I look at God and say that's not enough, if I can't keep the marriage I wanted together then the rest of this is all garbage and I hate it...if I was really THAT ungrateful...well, in that case I'm just being a whiny brat and I will never be happy, marriage or not. IMHO. So I use that to remind myself to turn my focus daily on appreciating what I do have.
Basically I told him that I don't like divorce, that I think he has every reason to feel any amount of anger that he feels, that I'm even glad he doesn't like it. I told him in 100 years I think people will look back at this era and think that what we did to each other, breaking up families and such, will look as horrible to them then as slavery looks to us now. And he's going to suffer the consequences of this world and that stinks, there is nothing he can do about it. Both now and when he's trying to find a partner in a world where nearly everyone has this same crazy view that this is all somehow ok and normal. But that at the end of the day he has a life he's been given, and he has choices to make. And that I would recommend that given the choice to either pick fights with his mom and be a victim so he could live in constant anger and conflict so he could make sure some other person knew that he didn't like something they did, or the choice to voice and act on your beliefs when you have the chance and then to turn the focus on appreciating what you have left to celebrate...I would recommend the second path.
I know his mom is a challenging person to live with. And there is no doubt that her boyfriend has done some things completely out of line, because even if he was absolutely provoked some of these things are unacceptable. But I also know that my son has been provoking and escalating as well. I just wanted to help him understand that there are different choices he can make that would reduce the conflict without betraying himself. And he knows that I love him and don't want to see him living in pain, it's not betraying me to appreciate the life he has.
I did most of the talking. I gave him chances to respond but he was pretty quiet and I was ok with that. I just wanted to give him some food for thought and show him that he wasn't alone.
The fact is that he is a very smart kid and I believe that he understood everything I said. I'm not pretending to proclaim him 'cured' because I gave him a lecture. This was just what I felt was appropriate today. We'll see what tomorrow brings.
I'm keeping a close eye on what goes on at his mom's of course. His mom and her boyfriend. If things don't change there may come a time when I make a move for him to live with me. It's great to try to work things out, but there comes a point where if it's better for him to live with me then we have to do what's best for him. But right now I believe it's best for him that he learns to find that middle road and live with his mom and manage himself to avoid these conflicts more often. Part of life is managing through these situations. Now if I get the sense that he's doing everything a reasonable 13 year old can and it's just an unreasonable situation, then so help me I'll make a move to get him living with me.
Shoot, long, long post as always. I'm not pretending this was perfect, just me, the play dad, doing what I can to make it through another battle.
In the end we had a good day. We went out to celebrate my birthday (last week), I went to a mexican restaurant where they made me wear the sombrero (I took S13 there on his birthday and they made him wear the sombrero, he wanted his payback), then we came home and played a little 500, read together, and listened to some music. We watched the video for Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues which is pretty epic. D10 gave me a gift that she sewed, it was a heart pillow with "My dad is smart" and "my dad is funny" and "I love my dad" and things like that dangling from the heart. It was really sweet. She'll turn on me soon enough, but right now she just glows around me. I don't know. Just rambling now. Life over here is very warm and fun and exciting. No complaints gang. No complaints.
I'll let you know if anything further comes to light with S13. Thanks again guys.
Hey Zues, just stopping by to day hello! Hope all is well. JellyBxxx
Wow, a Jelly sighting!!! Thank you for dropping by and bumping my thread. If you're anything like me it takes ever increasing bursts of energy to overcome the inertia to post but should you feel the urge know that we will listen.
Hmm, what's new with me. Well, I've been doing pretty well while being aware of the low at the same time. It's kinda weird.
In general, moment to moment, I feel great. Things have never been better. There's no part of my life I don't look forward to, and the time I share with my family is profoundly fulfilling. Just hearing about some of the hardships around the world, be it hurricanes or the loss of a family member, and I realize how precious my time with my family is to me. I know the world will go on when me and my children are gone, but what we have right now is unlike anything I've known before. I don't journal much so if something were to happen to me please someone on the forum track my kids down and let them know that every hardship I've faced in my life was worth it many times over for each meal we got to share together, each page we read together, each joke we made, each trail we explored, each pool ball that plunked over the pocket edge. I finally know what it means to be content.
The bittersweet comes from the loss I have learned to live with but still feel. My wife is gone forever and as deeply as I love my children, I once loved her. Do I love her today? No, she was dead to me a long time ago and the person she is today is a total stranger. I have no feelings for her in particular.
No, the loss comes from the love that I had planned on giving to her that is now going to waste. When I married her I didn't agree to give her my love on our wedding day and then see how I felt the next day. I agreed to give her all of it, forever. Well, my heart goes on beating, and I have this love inside of me that I had pledged to her. And instead of sharing it, I put it in a nice heart shaped box, put a ribbon on it, and then throw it in the trash. The person that had wanted this love from me is long gone and my hearts ongoing generation of love is now just an aching reminder of what was lost.
I'm not interested in rehashing debates about looking for other partners, or why I'm not. I only write these words because it is the only natural progression of my post. I'm not doing that. I am the alien. It seems everyone else is talking about deal breakers, compatibility, red flags, what they want and need in a partner, and writing their books and blogs on how they thing relationships and the world and everyone in it should work. I can't begin to relate to any of it because it all seems so incomprehensible that we would let these trivial things get in the way of what is possible to share with each other.
I feel like a ghost. Like I died three years ago and am just haunting the planet for a bit longer before it's time to go. The rest of the world is bustling around and I don't connect with them. No one can see me, and if they could they wouldn't understand me, and if they tried to reach out our arms would pass through each other's anyway because we simply live in different worlds.
My kids know who I am. They have seen the ghost of their dad. They know what it means to share some time with them. And they know how special that time is. They will always cherish the love that I gave them. And even when they move out, marry off, live their own lives...even when our relationships fade or end...nothing can take away the time we've shared or diminish the wonder that it ever was.
I know we don't have forever, so I just say thank you every day. My job is tough but it continues. It's nice to have a pool table again. I finally paid my entry fee for the US Open last night and felt a jolt of enthusiasm that I haven't felt for years, all the childhood dreams of playing along side of the greats came rushing back. I practice with me kids and they get to spend some time with me in that special trance like world of just feeling the hit of a shot until it becomes your friend.
What else? Not much else to tell. I read a bit. Play a few local and regional pool tournaments. Solve some chess puzzles. Tell bad puns at the dinner table (my mom had bought a plane ticket, and she wanted to get a second for her other son who's name is jason, so I told her if she wanted to add Jason's seat, make sure it was 'adjacent' to hers...this is how ghosts have fun I guess).
Oh, and my best friend. I'm lucky to have him. We play poker together, we're going to a pool tournament in WI in two weekends and the best part is the 5 hour drive. When I have a funny story to share he is the one I tell. Like when I was at the pool tournament on Sunday night and this one match took 2 1/2 hours which is WAY long, so me and another guy made a side bet on when the match would be over, and I drew the line and he picked the 'over', and I thought I was stealing because there was no way it could take that much longer, and then somehow it got closer and closer to the deadline, and finally it was down to three balls but if the minute digit ticked over I would lose, it was down to seconds and the players didn't know we'd made this side bet, it was excruciating, and finally the guy shot in the winning 9 ball and I won the bet and looked at the clock and knew it was so close I started counting out loud, and sure enough I got to seven and the minute changed. I was SEVEN SECONDS away from losing that bet. What a nail biter. The guy I bet with beat me in the finals but that made the whole trip worth it.
I hope no one is worried about me guys, I promise I've never been better. The pain in my heart is a dull constant ache partly from loss and partly from the intensity of the joy in my life. Compared to the stabbing throbbing pain I went through at the end of my marriage this feels like a gentle massage.
My views may differ in some ways but I care for all of you as well and hope you each find some of what you're searching for, and some peace and joy with what you already have. Good night gang!
Hi Zues,
Glad you are doing well. I don't have much time to post right now, but upon reading your post my first thought was:
"He considers himself the ghost?"... Yet many view the walkaway as one. I know that's how I view my ex. And every encounter with him leaves me feeling like I have come across one. What prevents you from feeling alive and passionate?
Hi J! Thanks for the note.
I think I used a poor example with ghost. I didn't mean that I am a shell of myself, that I'm dragging around the earth, anything like that. Quite the opposite. I am alive and passionate.
What I meant was that I have given up trying to connect with other people in this world. Maybe I should have said a turtle.
It's like we all need a little personal space and a little time on our own. When we need this space and time we find ourselves withdrawing from others a little until we catch up on our deficit. Well, with me I've been withdrawing and withdrawing and withdrawing, like there is no distance I can achieve from the world that is enough.
Oh, I can still walk and talk and interact. I get fired up every day, pour my heart into my work and serve my customers with enthusiasm, work hard on my pool game, and I DO have real connections with my children and cherish the time I have with them. But I need my forcefields on to leave the house, and I don't lower them until I'm back home.
I don't have any problems with this. It may seem a little unhealthy, but I have seen how the rest of the world plays with each other, and it's rougher than I want to play. Things don't work the way it seems like they should for me and I know when I'm in a bad game. I don't want to be healed because I'd prefer my distance. At least at this time.
Had a weird dream just now. Not sure why it matters, but I felt like sharing with my DB crew. I dreamed that me and XW were living together. NOT remairried or together, but just living together. Like somehow the courts ordered us to move in together for the kids or financial reasons. In my dream it was so strange. On the one hand I felt like I wanted her to see me in a positive light, to maybe one day love me again. And it felt impossible that she couldn't, because I am her man, and I am a good man, and I am an awesome man, and this whole divorce thing still seems like a stupid angry lash out that got out of control because she was overwhelmed with resentment and didn't know how to avoid that buildup over the years. It seemed like any day she'd realize how stupid it all was and that she had overreacted and come back to me. But on the other hand, I didn't want her love. I mean, I did, more than anything, kind of. But I wanted a love from her that I didn't have to doubt. That I didn't have to fear being short lived and subject to change with her moods. That I didn't have to live with as broken, in a shadow of a memory of a bunch of other men in her life. So while we lived together I was still trying to be my best self and I longed for her acceptance, all while I would never have been able to get close to her again.
Then I woke up and as I type this I guess this is probably true for many of us. And actually, maybe that's also the best way I can explain how I feel about the world I live in as a whole and why I am withdrawn.
Anyway, quick update. I am heading to Beloit, WI, to the Carom Room for a pool tournament. When I say this it probably sounds pretty straight forward. "Oh, he likes to play pool, he's going to play pool, he's having fun doing his hobby."
Well, it's not that easy. I go through more emotional stages with a pool tournament than I can count. See, this tournament isn't just a local event. Quite a few of the world's best will be there. This even has grown to be quite savage, an unofficial bar table 10 ball championship.
So I start off by being excited. I get to play the best in the world!
Then I get alarmed. I better get practicing! Time to make sure my game is all set!
Then I get more excited. I'm hitting the balls really well!
Then I get discouraged. I realize that my best case scenario would probably be to scalp a couple of world champions and make a deep run (last year I took 4th and beat the #1 seed 8-2 but if felt like lightning in a bottle). But that even if I win it nothing will really change. That whatever I thought I'd accomplish through pool won't happen, that I'll always work for a living, that I am who I am and a pool title won't make anything any different.
Then I get frustrated. I am too tired to practice because I am working my rear off the last week. This is totally not fair. I am already the underdog. These guys are a murderer's row. Alex Pagulayan?!? He's been a hero to me for 15 years since I saw him in the finals of the US Open. These guys play every day, hours a day, they travel and play in championship events weekly. They are all better than me by leaps and bounds. And that's not enough, I have to spot them the handicap that my only preparation will be a 15 minute session where I zombie walk around the table, clawing at the balls for a few minutes before I collapse back into my bed and fall asleep watching a chess video? Seriously, this is stupid. I have zero chance.
Then I get depressed. How did I let my dreams escape me. How did it come to this? I traded my pursuit to be the best in for a normal life, and then was chewed up and spit out. Now I'm stuck with the remains. I'll never be the player I want to be. It's too late for me. I can improve a little, but I've fought for 20 years to improve and it's taken SOOOOOOOOOOO much work, truly water from a rock. There's no way I can close the gap between me and these 23 year old gun slingers that play every day and have zero fear. And even if there was a chance, some small chance I could, well...I have to go to work to take care of my kids, and I have to read to them, and I have to spend my energy there. I'll struggle for a few more years until my eye sight fades and my arms develop the trembles and then I'll just be a memory in the pool scene. A foot note on a few magazine pages.
Now I have to start a 5 hour drive. I'm still feeling pretty down about it all. I'll have some caffeine, it will be good to have the weekend off if nothing else and to hang out with my best friend in the car. Once I get there then I'll become nervous, or even terrified. Then we'll see how it goes. Maybe I smooth out and play well, maybe I fall apart and spew off opportunities. It is what it is. I've seen it all before. I guess my point was just to share that these events put me through the emotional ringer. Ha, and I registered for the US Open next month. Talk about an exercise in futility. I feel so out of place all over these days.
Thanks for having a small place for me here guys.
Hi Zues , hope its ok to post , you've entered the US open , WOW, kudos, instead of talking yourself down how about the opposite. Your obviously a real talent and even for guys that work at their sport 24/7 , the planets still need to align and lady luck needs to smile on them.
Maybe Zuess planets will align and his natural ability will do the rest.
Good luck and would love to put a bet on you , take care , Rd
Thanks RD. I am proud of myself for how far I've come, but disappointed I haven't done everything I've set out to do. It is just something I have to do. Doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to others or if no one understands why it's so important, but you'll just have to take my word for it. It is something I have to do. Almost like my life's work.
[CAUTION- TOURNAMENT UPDATE- FEEL FREE TO SKIP THIS PART] Just got back from this tournament. I didn't place in the money, tied for 17th out of 96. But I feel pretty good overall about how I did. It was double elimination, and sometimes who you draw and a little bit of luck plays a big role in the outcome. So here's how it went down.
I got a bye first round, but then I had to play the winner of two top players. No easy first match. I ended up playing a former professional from Texas. He got me down 3-0 (going to 9), then I tied it up at 6-6. I got a bad break and he ran two racks to get me down 8-6. This was a grind, a late night match. This was now 2AM and they were shouting at everyone to hurry, they had to close, wrap it up, etc. I ran two racks back to go 8-8. The last game I got a shot and ran that one too, a little dicey but I got across the finish line.
My next match was against another well known top player. Not elite, but a top national player that is just on the cusp. He had me down 2-0 and then I caught a gear and won 9 out of the next 10 games to win 9-3. At this point I'm feeling good, I've beat two champions that are both favorites to me on paper.
The next match was a tough blow. I lost. My opponent is a very solid player and he played a great set on me, so he definitely deserved the win. It was just tough. He got a couple of early breaks to get the first few opportunities and then capitalized on it to build up a 4-0 lead. I blew a critical chance and went down 5-0. From there I tried hard to rally and won 3 in a row to close the gap to 5-3. But I just wobbled one time too many, and while I'd been putting some heat on him my slips gave him just enough opportunity and encouragement to fight through. He ended up winning 9-4 but it was much closer than the score looked because I was very close to flipping it around there until the very end.
Finally I played this morning against a good player I hadn't seen before. This guy played stupendously, I was surprised I didn't know him. He also got a little luck and a lot of early opportunities, but he was playing just stellar and was playing near perfect. Before I know it I was down 3-0, 4-1, 5-2. At 5-2 I broke and a ball knocked the cue ball into the pocket so I lost my turn, he ran two more racks to get to 7-2. And then it happened! I FINALLY got some chances at the table, and I charged at him! I won the next 5 racks to get to 7-7! He broke dry and I had a shot with really tricky position. I played a brilliant shot and got a horrible break and scratched in a way that was really unfortunate. That cost me the rack. Finally at 8-7 I had one last chance to tie it up. I made a gutsy run but got tripped up on the last two balls. I had to play defense and left him two back to back hail mary shots to win. He calmly made both shots and my jaw was on the floor. Great shooting. Seriously. I lose 9-7.
Well, I just got curious so I looked him up on google. Shoot, I DO know who this guy is! He's some prodigy champion from Germany! I watched him play some 10K gambling match in January giving up a handicap to one of our strong national players and running him over for the cash. This guy is a flat out monster. But I watched that match on a stream (wasn't there in person) and didn't get a good look at him. I didn't place him when we played our match this morning. Hahaha. They had one live streaming table at this event and they usually reserve it for the best match of the bunch to sell pay-per-views. This morning when I played this guy they put me on the streaming table. I was confused, I mean, there were national champions playing on my left and right. Now I know. No one wanted to watch me, they wanted to see this German guy.
So now I'm wondering if I would've played better or worse if I'd have known him. Honestly I don't know that I could've played much better, I played a great set overall. I like to think I could've done one pip better through inspiration, but whatever, it is what it is.
This tournament is the beginning of my new run at pool greatness. I have been dedicated to pool my entire life, but 3 years ago at BD I had to put it on hold. The emotional distress, fighting financially, fighting for my children, being there for my kids, navigating through the legal settlement, and of course not having a house with a pool table in it. Pretty much put me out of commission.
Now I have the house, the pool table. Now it is the beginning of phase one. Phase two starts in April 2019. That is when I am done paying my ex the maintenance payments. By then my goals are the following:
-Great physical shape
-Striking the balls well
-Pool bankroll and time off budgeted for me to play 10+ events annually with professional level competition
I will be turning 40 in 2 years, my work should be going smoother, my kids are doing well, I want to be ready to make my last run at pool and give it 5-10 years of my absolute, absolute, absolute best.
So between now and then it's ramp up. Working out. Practicing daily. Competing whenever possible against more difficult competition for larger sums (out of my comfort zone). And most of all, locking that vision in my mind and using it as a compass to steer every move until I get there. I've got more plans than I've mentioned, but this is already way too long.
The match I lost last night was devastating. It was a huge, huge loss in the sense that I went from having a legit chance to make a deep run to being most of the way to elimination, and in the sense that I feel I had a good chance that set once I came back. That loss REALLY hurt. I regret in particular one shot I missed. I could've made that 7 ball. It may not have been enough, but I will never know. Because I hung it up. And I suffered from it. But the point is I realized that was the first loss in years that I have really suffered from. And that isn't good. That just means I haven't been competing enough. That ends today.
OK, calming down now.
In other news, I got some very good news from work while I was out. There was some concern on my team about the goals for September through end of year. Well, turns out they did a mid-year adjustment and reduced the goals based on actual business opportunities (versus projected). This is the second time this year. And this is very good news, it means I can keep my job and pay my bills. Always nice. And it gives me a lot of hope that I will be able to stay here. Things have been very up in the air, but my optimism that 2018 will be ok and I can stay for the count is slightly better. So yay.
I get my kids back tomorrow. Good times. Back to reality. Op, there goes gravity. Mom's spaghetti. You know.
Take care gang.
Zues
I don't think there is any harm is disconnecting from people for a while and putting your energy and mindset into pool. (Congratulations Btw That's awesome placement considering your handicaps)
I always thought how nice it must be to have a real talent and passion for something, like art or music. Something that is consuming because it gives you a focus and drive in life. An escape, but that is not really the right word. Maybe outlet is a better word.
A lot of us have put things on hold during this time. God I have not read a book in years. Or watched a television show other then Power Rangers and the Amazing World of Gumball. I'm still transitioning but looking forward to getting my life back.
Great goals, glad to read your posts.
Thanks for dropping by J!
Yeah, I'm good where I'm at. The game does make me happy. I think it's the pretty colors. And that feeling of a good shot. You take dead aim and see the point on that object ball you're targeting, and it's like everything's in slow motion, you aim on your back swing like drawing back and arrow, take a few practice strokes where the tip of your cue is right up next to the cue ball, the line is laser tight, then it's like your stroke is so powerful and straight that even on a long power shot it feels effortless, the cue stick goes through the cue ball and keeps going, remaining straight out along the line of the shot at the completion of the swing with a nice vibration, and the picture you had in your mind plays out with impossible precision. Again, again, like a hypnotic rhythm. Carving through racks with the cue ball on a string, stopping on the piece of lint on the table you had been staring at, making it spin, bounce off rails, dance through obstacles, landing in tiny windows, picking through clusters, slicing balls, smoothing them down rails, into pockets, until there are none left.
OK, I don't know why people play the game, but it is a great escape for me. I play some music and the hours, days, and years melt away.
Anyway, not much else to post. Kids tomorrow and this weekend. Nothing else new here and that's alright with me. Take care guys!
Hey Zues, I'm happy to see things are going well for you. Grats on the tournament, looks like you had an amazing time and did really well competing against these top level players. Not much else to add, just wanted to say hi and let you know I still read your threads a bit even though I rarely post anymore. Keep it going man!
Hey Zues,
I'm still reading. You're still in my thoughts, sending you lots of love to you and your lovely children.
Much love JellyB XXX
Hey guys, thanks for following along. Jelly, I figured you were out there but I appreciate the bump. Always good to get that confirmation that you're hanging around. Johntay, I appreciate your post. I'm assuming you meant something I posted elsewhere unless you find fish stories about pool matches amazing
One last day of work then shipping out to the US Open Saturday super early. I'll be in action Sunday or Monday depending on what bracket I'm in. I stopped all drills a week and a half ago and am not just playing racks to get loose. It's hard to explain how helpless it feels to go up against the best in the world. David and Goliath all the way. Not that I don't play strong, of course I do, but there are a few dozen guys out there that are borderline supernatural. It's truly going into battle with less troops and fighting to the end hoping for some things to go your way. But I love the battle. There aren't battles to be found in my metro area so if I have to travel and pick a fight with someone bigger then so be it, at least I get to fight.
I'll bring my lap top so I can keep tabs on all of you while I'm on the move. Be well and take care of yourselves!
All the very best with the competition, they all have two arms two legs and two eyes. Anyone is beatable and the planets need to align for anyone to win at that level so positive thoughts for Zues's planets to align. Take care, Rd
Thank you guys.
When I'm really in a tough spot before a match I always journal. You guys are some of my best friends so I'm going to write it out here.
Tomorrow morning I play my first match. My opponent is pretty intimidating. He is an young hotshot from across the globe that just broke through on the international scene by beating the top players in the world and winning a championship title a few months ago. This kid is scary in a few ways. He has grown up learning to play the game in a way that I didn't know existed when I was his age. He has tremendous fire power and all of the tools. He is also composed under pressure, and full of belief and confidence. He is on a roll right now and believes the world is his and things are going to go his way.
For me it isn't as easy. I have always struggled with doubts and fears, feelings of inadequacy that lead to frustration and despair. It isn't all in my head either, because there are simply things that I can't do on the table that some of these guys can. And it's not for lack of trying. I know I've put in more hours on the table then this guy, I know I've worked harder. Maybe I learned from the wrong people. Maybe I didn't get in the ring often enough when I was young enough to sponge it all up. Maybe I had some bad habits that we didn't know were bad back in the 90s but the bar has risen. Maybe I set the bar too low of my personal goals, and now I look around and others developed themselves into players well beyond what I thought I could become. All in all, this tournament is waking up a lot of those familiar feelings.
I have to work myself through these. Years ago I came up with what I call the "invisible ninja" theory. It goes like this: When you compete, you are facing both physical obstacles and mental obstacles. The physical obstacles aren't easy to overcome, but they are easy to see. The mental obstacles are like invisible ninjas. You may not ever see them but they can take you out before you even knew what hit you.
I have seen many players fail to overcome a relatively easy physical challenge only to say "I shouldn't have missed that ball". This is because they only saw the physical challenge, and didn't even understand the ninja that they were doing battle with. It's hard to beat an opponent you don't see. It's even harder to beat one you don't believe exists.
I believe in the ninjas. I've faced them many times, and I've lost many battles to them. So these days when I prepare to play, I barely practice pool. That's not the hardest part. I try to get ready to face those ninjas.
Step one is spotting them. They never show themselves directly. But you might see a foot print, or hear a rustling in the branches, and know that one is about to strike. I try to be conscious of the signs that a ninja is nearby. This might be a sickening feeling of dread in my stomach, the fact that the pockets suddenly look impossibly tight and that the table is starting to look like an alien trapezoidal shape that I barely recognize. And oftentimes this is accompanied by a negative thought pattern.
Once I recognize the ninja I'm dealing with, I have to be ready to face them and do battle. Just like in physical pool where you learn the challenging situations and then practice ways to overcome them, I try to anticipate the mental challenges and then be ready to be aware of them when they arise and be prepared to navigate through them.
So as I sit with a feeling of dread and despair thinking about my match, I ask myself where that dread is coming from. I just found the match he played in the finals on Youtube and watched it to try to wake up those demons further, to magnify them until I could hear what they were saying. Here's what I heard, and here is the beginning of my defensive game plan:
Comparison Ninja:
How to spot: Self critical thoughts. This is one of those shots you don't hit as good as these guys. You'll never be as good as they are. You're going to show that when you fall short on this attempt.
Defense: This IS a hard shot for me, and others may be able to make it more often. But I only compete against myself. I'm here to enjoy giving it my best effort and try to handle this pressure the best I can.
Doubt ninja (when I have opportunity to lead or win):
How to spot: Doubt in my own ability, negative narrative. You can't win against this guy. You will find a way to mess this up because you're supposed to lose.
Defense: I'm not here to win or prove anything to myself or anyone else. I'm here to challenge myself with this exact adversity. I flew here just to face these doubts and I look forward to meeting them head on.
Defect ninja:
How to spot: Thoughts about how abnormal I am. Something's wrong with you, you have so many demons and fears, you have to work so hard just to play a match of pool.
Defense: That may be true, but the flip side is that I am so driven I do whatever work is needed for me to be ready to deliver my absolute best. This is one of my gifts and an advantages.
You don't fit in ninja:
How to spot. Self consciousness. Feeling left out. Everyone else here is tall and athletic and covered with sponsorship patches and they all know each other. No one even talks to you.
Defense: I don't expect permission or approval from my opponents. The challenge of the game is for me to give myself approval and permission. I'm proud of myself for being strong enough to take this on by myself without an armor of patches.
Now, you might think this is a lot to be going through your head when you're at the table. You are right. This is why I prepare. In the past when I've done my best I've spent hours and hours letting my brain spin ahead of time with all of these doubt and fears. I picture myself at the table with a shot and then being attacked by a ninja, then I'll picture myself using my response. I'll practice with a 'ninja flashcard deck' and pretend I'm being attacked every few shots. Basically I try to get all of the hopelessness, fear, and dread out ahead of time. At it's best when I get in the ring I find out it's never as hard as I imagined it. But for me it's only ever been easy when I've over-prepared and planned on it being impossible. I'm not expecting it to be easy. But I didn't come for easy. This is the toughest pool tournament in the world and I came for tough, so bring it on.
You never know how it's going to go. Maybe I lose to the ninjas and don't even give myself a chance. Maybe I overcome all mental adversity, bring my best game, and it isn't enough. Maybe I win this match.
But regardless of outcome one thing is clear in my mind. The match doesn't start tomorrow morning. The match has already started. I am competing right now as I type these words, sit with my emotions, and allow myself to find some tranquility within the storm.
And whatever happens, I am glad I'm here facing these battles then sitting at home wishing I had the courage.
He got me. I am 100% satisfied with how I played. I brought my absolute best game, I felt pressure at times but it elevated my game, and I enjoyed the contest. All the demons were defeated last night, today it was just play and enjoy.
The kid flat out does a few things better than me and it showed up. I played my best. He played his best. His best looks a little different than mine.
That gives me some things to work on when I get home. That's good, I like working on my game. It's a road I'm glad I'm on.
I play again tomorrow, double elimination. Looking forward to watching some great matches tonight and trying again tomorrow.
Glad to see you in your happy place my friend. Much love JellyB xxx :
Thanks Jelly! I'm pretty isolated out here so thanks for letting me blather about it here. Normally I would have a road partner but that wasn't meant to be this season.
I play again in one hour. I play a regional player that is good but not rated quite as high as me. If I win I play a well known player who is about my speed but a bit more experienced. If I win again I will play the winner of another B bracket, the toughest of which is a former world champion (who I actually beat a few years ago in this event). That would be a $2,000 set to get into the money.
I want it so bad and my nerves are back again. I just took a nap because the people next door had an alarm that set for 6AM that they hit 'snooze' on for like 90 minutes and it kept waking me up this morning. I listened to my personalized hypnosis mp3 which allowed me to restore my energy. But I’m drawing short breaths.
I watched a few matches on the B side, one last night, one today. Both matches players dogged it (choked) back and forth. I’m excited to think my opponent might dog it to me as well. But I’m nervous that I might, too, dog it back. And I’m nervous that maybe he’ll play jam up (good) and it will be way, way tougher than I’m thinking. And I’m nervous that I’m nervous, and panicked that I'm so weak that all it takes is one player that is a ball under my speed (slightly beneath) and suddenly I just want the win and the money.
So then I get mad at myself, because seriously, that’s not why I came out here. I’ll never be the player I want to be if I start hoping it’s easy. I’m supposed to be here to fight hard matches and play my best.
What I’m rediscovering is that a player that you’re supposed to beat can be as tough as a player you aren’t supposed to beat. This ain’t like a local tournament where the skill edge is decisive. These guys can all play. There WILL be times they play great and knock you out. There WILL be times you dog it to them. That comes with competition.
What do I really want? Of course I want to let go of these things. I want to play my best. More accurately, I want to play unencumbered by the nerves that come from this. Even more accurately I want to enjoy the nerves because this is what it means to be in competition. My head is spinning a little trying to figure it out.
Taking a different tack, here are today’s Ninja’s:
The favorite ninja:
How to spot: Pressure coming from expectations due to paper rankings. You’re supposed to beat this guy. If you can’t beat this guy then that’s pretty bad. You’re supposed to be trying to beat better players, not losing to mediocre players. You’d have to dog it pretty bad to lose this one. Don’t be a chicken [censored] choker and dog it off to this guy. That would be embarrassing.
Defense: The fact that I’m thinking these thoughts proves that this is a very difficult match. It’s difficult for different reasons, but just as challenging as any set I’ve played. I’m not here to win, nor even to play my best. I know the player I want to be and I don’t get there by having opponents dog it to me, I get there by locking that picture in my mind and embracing every opportunity to strive towards it.
The hopeless ninja:
How to spot: Feeling sapped of energy because your prospects are so slim. You’re in bad shape. Even if you win this match you’d have to beat two more champions before you get in the money. It’s just a matter of time before you get eliminated. It’s probably not happening.
Defense: I didn’t come here to get in the money. I didn’t come to play a set in the future. I came to play this very set. Whatever happens in the tournament, this set here and now is my greatest challenge. The player I want to be fights hardest when it looks hopeless because he knows feelings can change when he keeps pushing. I’m going to push until they eliminate me then I’m going to leave cat’s claw marks on the table because they’re going to have to drag me away as I keep trying to fight.
Well, ready or not here I come. Match kicks off in 45 minutes. If I get suited up and down to the tournament room now I'll have 30 minutes. Hopefully there are some tables open I can warm up on. If not I'll watch matches and try to start thinking pool. Mental gymnastics aside it still matters what you do on the table and you have to be ready hit those balls. I'll catch you all later.
Nail-biter. I ended up on top with a final score of 11-9.
Next match in the morning against a guy that plays technically only a little better than me but has been playing full time for 10 years with a deep resume.
It will all come down to caffeine. Goodnight all.
I don't know if this is allowed, but have you ever thought of taking a beta blocker? We use small amounts to treat stage fright. Patients take it an hour or so before performing, and it blocks the adrenaline response - no shaky hands, no sweaty palms, no racing heart. Might be something to think about.
We're all taking this road trip with you Zues. Right here, cheering you on and holding our breath in those moments with you and releasing them too. Enjoy Zues, you have waited a long time for this, for you to meet this self again. You earned it.
Staying tuned. Wishing you a restful sleep friend.
xxx JellyB
Zues!
I love reading about your pool playing. What a difference since the beginning. You are enjoying it even if you aren't number world champion. You are loving the challenge, the sport itself, and working on your game for YOU. Not to be the best in the world. But to do the best you can. You aren't beating yourself up and you recognizing other people may be "better" but that doesn't mean you aren't awesome and you can't enjoy the game for what it is.
it's just really nice to read. If you ever have the chance, google Scott Simonetti. He is pretty inspirational.
Holy smokes what a set! I got there, 11-7. Panting a little.
He had me down 3-1, then I hit a super sick gear and won 8 out of 10 to get him down 9-5. He was muttering things like "This can't be happening" and that just pumped me up, I think that is a sign of weakness and it is gas on the fire. Then at 9-5 I was the one that got a little weak, there was part of me that just wanted it to be over. That spells disaster, and sure enough I let him creep back in to 9-7 due to a few mistakes and him taking advantage. I know he's a champion and is looking for any crack in the door. Now I put myself in a spot where it was a real crap shoot.
We took our break and I decided that win or lose I wanted to get out of this "I want it to be over" mindset. I just wanted to sit with the pressure and be friends with it. That's why I came out here after all. I want to experience it fully, and be really present.
Well, I got a chance at 9-7 and it was a triple tough opportunity. I'll spare the play by play but I absolutely came with my best game and ran the two racks out from there. Boom. It feels good, not just to win but to let go of the weakness inside of me and dive back into the fire giving myself a chance.
My next match is in 5 hours. I play the winner of two East Coast tournament players that both have some titles and lots of experience. It will be a 2K match and it's hard not to go back to that "just let me limp through this one and the money" mindset. I have no idea how it will go, whether I'll succumb to that, whether I'll rise up, and whether that will be enough to overcome my adversaries. But in the end I don't care. Even though it's hard for me to handle the heat sometimes I just keep telling myself to steer back into it, to savor the pressure. I definitely got what I signed up for.
Thank you all for letting me talk about it here. I'm not asking for a cheering squad, mostly I just like to put my thoughts on paper and get it out. But ok, a little support doesn't hurt
G, I'll check out Scott Simonetti when I'm done with the tournament. Don't need to put more crap in my head just yet, it's already got enough of a barrage going on. But yeah, enjoying what I have isn't always easy. Honestly it's something I learned from my divorce. Appreciation for what we have.
Jelly, thank you. It is good to be back. First serious pro tournament since BD and I sometimes forget how deeply important it is to me to walk into the fire. I'm really grateful for the opportunity, it does make me feel like I'm home again.
kml, you bring up a good point. I've heard of beta blockers and to be honest I'm not even sure if they're legal or not in competition, or how wide spread they are. Funny, that's something you'd think I would know. I'm also not sure if they'd help me or not. It's quite possible they could. It's also possible that they wouldn't, that the nerves I have give me the edge I need. Sure, I choke sometimes, but I also dig deep because I'm fighting for me life out there. Last set I played at a level I don't play at locally that I forget I'm capable of playing at. So pressure to me may be like spinach to Popeye.
Strategically it would make sense to experiment with them, but I'm really reluctant to do so. I guess it stems from the question "what is the purpose of competition?" If the purpose is to win money I wouldn't be playing. If the purpose was for fame I wouldn't be playing. Now if the purpose is to get the best results possible and beta blockers could help, then it would definitely make sense to use them. But if the true meaning of competition for me is to test myself mentally as well as physically, to face my demons head on, to walk through the fire and not flinch...well, then I'd be losing my opportunity to test myself in this way. My dad was a rock climber and he's talked about climbing aids, and how for him using certain aids was like bringing a step ladder or taking a helicopter ride to the top of a peak. So it really comes down to what the purpose of the competition is for me.
I'm not dead against it, this is something I'm sure I'll ponder more. But my gut is telling me that the pressure and my fear are challenges that are profoundly important to me, and I'm not sure I want to lose that.
I've posted this before but it's funny, my IC told me once before BD that "my life is run by fear". I scoffed and told him that was ridiculous, that I was in a scary sales role where I was constantly out of my comfort zone, that I continuously put myself into difficult competitions that scared me to the core. I made it clear that I make it a point to put myself out there whenever I can. He calmly explained "I didn't say you ran from the fear. I said your life is run by fear. You seem to want to defeat something inside of yourself, and since you can't beat if for good you have to keep recreating difficult situations that allow you to show it you're not going to be scared off." He had me there. Maybe this explains why I'm hesitant to 'take the edge off'.
OK, enough, enough. Time to relax and unwind (ha). Whatever happens I'm glad I've reconciled with my pool life and I get to have these experiences. Thank you all again, you guys are the best.
Well, it's a fine balance. Adrenaline does help you focus (a reason why people with ADD are often adrenaline junkies; also the reason why my ex would procrastinate on projects like writing papers - the stress of the pressure of being up against a deadline actually focused him).
On the other hand, if you're feeling the physical effects of excess adrenaline, they can cause sweaty palms, racing herat, tremor.
When it comes to stage performers, I find they only usually need to use it a few times before they overcome their fear. But I hear what you're saying about competition and doing it clean, and I respect that.
Since beta blockers are a common blood pressure medicine and heart medicine it seems like they would be hard to ban, but I don't know.
Well, it's over. One moment it was 2-2, the next minute it was 11-2 and I was shaking his hand. Funny game sometimes, he caught a big gear, broke well, got some good luck, and melted away the nine racks.
I'm pretty detached right now, I've been zoned out for a while and am kind of numb. Just the sinking sense that when I come to a bit the loss will hurt more and more. For now I'm just going to kill time until it's nightfall and wait for a new day to begin. I'll be fine. I knew what I signed up for and I can't get where I'm going without many more days like this on the way.
Until next time...
Hi Zues, hold your head higb buddy. Most people couldnt last one game at that level. You competed and fought and as i said before that guys planets aligned.
As you said, practice is all important and you work full time and have a life to live as well as prepare for these massive competitions. Im not trying to make you feel better but to see what you did achieve. Onwards and upwards, your at a level that most can't get to ever. Celebrate that and know your time will come. Bloody planets !!!!!!!!
Take care , Rd
reading your updates throughout the tournament was exciting for me. I felt your passion and joy and you were so totally alive. Keep focusing on that feeling. Remember that.
Beta Blockers to help focus? Now that is interesting. I guess slowing down the heart rate can keep you more calm and focused instead of feeling your heart pound out of your chest. Zues, if you ever decide to do that, please do it very carefully, it's a heart med!
Hey Zues. I know you are likely feeling some deflation, but I'm so glad you got a taste of victory too, and that your mind, body and soul got to experience and remember the excitement and dread of competition. This is the igniting of life Zues. They say life happens outside your comfort zone. You moved out of a certain kind of limbo that embraces us all as we work through the losses we have experienced. I hope you get more opportunities to be in this place, where life happens, where healing happens and the brain is open to new ways of thinking and doing.
Still here, still reading, still offering you love and friendship Zues. JellyBxxx
Hi Zues, just dropping by the boards for the first time in a while. Wanted to check in on you. Happy to hear your tournament update, it's wonderful to feel the passion you have for competition. Glad you are experiencing that again.
Morning
Have really enjoyed reading your tournament updates! What an incredible achievement
Great posts and writing Zues! You make the sport really come alive through your words. Writing might be something to consider pursuing? But glad to see that your are back and pursuing your passion. So happy for you, regardless of the win or loss. Your out there!
Hi Zues,
I was reading over some of my old threads searching for answers, inspiration and not really sure what else, but something. I came across this quote from you on my Hilariously Pleased Thread 18th of January 2016. It made me smile.
"Originally Posted By: Zues126
Self love isn't about changing how you feel about yourself. It's about changing how you feel about how you feel about yourself."
I miss our exchanges, I miss your presence and advice. I always felt protected by you, kind of like the older brother I never had. God you are a million years younger than me too
Anyway back to the task at hand.
Lots of Love JellyBxxx
Thanks for all the posts gang!
Yes, pool is back in my life again. I've learned a few things from that trip and have been working on my game. I've never hit the balls any better and have seen signs that my best days are in my future.
The one kind of cool thing that is different is my vision for 2019 keeps getting more and more crisp. In the beginning it was just "I want to be playing well and fire at some tournaments". It grew to me being in better shape, playing 3 or more majors, and playing my best. Well, now I'm starting to hatch an even more clear plan.
Basically if I commit to 10 major events before they start of that year I can put together an overall budget of time and money. Maybe it costs me 15K to play all of those events. But then I can do what they do in poker and put together a package that people can buy into. So maybe people can buy a slice for $500, $1,000, or whatever. At the end of the year I total up my win and they get a percentage of whatever I cash. Maybe it's a little loss, maybe it's a little win. Unlikely I'll win big time, but equally unlikely I'll get busted out of all the events without recouping most of the expense at the least. But that could easily give me the opportunity to play compared to the time it would take to round up the 15K on my own or the reluctance I'd feel about firing it all away when my family has real needs.
After thinking of this I think I could round up the 15K in a matter of days or weeks. It wouldn't be hard. I already know I have people that would throw in most of it, I'd have to diversify more to protect them and make sure no one could get hurt. And of course I'd at least take a moderate piece of my own action.
Best of all, I think this could be a recurring thing. Maybe not just one crazy flyer year, but an ongoing year over year new way of life. I could even get a website, publish my schedule, and post blog updates of my tournament matches, similar to what I posted here (maybe a little less embarrassing). But I think a lot of players would get a big kick out of rooting my on all year, having a horse in the race, and getting to feel close and personal with a path I'm following that maybe they couldn't follow in their life. Who knows, maybe I develop some type of following, working class hero kind of thing. I'm not saying it would blow up into something where I'd be getting donations, selling ebooks, giving lessons, and quitting my job while I write about pool...but I don't really care. All I really want to do is play anyway, so as long as I can do that my cup is full.
It's funny. Sometimes having this happen in your mind is the hardest part. Once I can see the picture, making it happen in real life is the easy part. For some reason I just never really dreampt that big. I was just on my own, firing what I could afford to fire. I might not even go the website route, or to publicly open up the window for backing, I might just make it happen on my own or with a few friends. Again, I just want to play. But it's amazing how hard it was to mentally commit to it, and now I feel like it's all downhill and frankly that it's already a reality.
Nothing else much new. Kids are awesome. Work is still a challenge but I am not stressing about it and have faith that something will work out at some point.
Sunny, Ginger, rd, juju, Jelly, it's cool to have you on my thread. I'm big fans of each of you. It's funny to say, I'm not sure I want to meet any of you in real life, but only because I am so appreciative with having this forum. It's like the fantasy long distance relationship that so many of us were BD'd for, why let reality get in the way? And yes, Jelly, I'm not going anywhere. You need a ride to the mall you just let me know...
Well, I'm crashing now so until next time. Take care and talk soon!
Just want to say, you never know. People do manage to develop and build a career out of something they are passionate about. I know some people that have done great by tapping into that niche market. You have a talent for ideas and writing and pool. Why not combine them?
I was nervous about meeting people i wrote to here IRL. (More for safety reasons then anything else though and I made it as safe as possible) But i will take reality over fantasy any day of the week. I did end up clicking with the people I thought I would. Its not hard as we don't just have being left by our spouses that united us, but some underlying aspect of our personalities that
would attract us to a forum and approach like this.
I totally respect why its not for every one though. Glad you are still here and posting.
Happy belated Thanksgiving Zues. I hope yours was filled with love and warmth. Much Love JellyBxxx
Hey Zues! I have met many IRL and I have some great lifelong friends. Some, very very close that I even vacation with!
But I totally get you about the fantasy R! It's nice to know some people on a very "safe" level.
However, I am going to want a link to your pool website because I am a gambling woman, and I am putting my money on you!
My goodness, has it really been 6 weeks since I posted? I think about you guys every day. I guess when I post I put a lot into it so sometimes it just takes a lot of gumption for me to put the words together. And it can take a while for my thoughts to start to clarify.
First off, thank you all for following and checking in. Happy holidays to all of you. Each of you is dealing with your share of pain so I am hoping you also find some moments of peace with the people you still have in your life.
I just got back from a week in Vegas for the US Bar Table Championships. I probably couldn't afford to take another week off of work but I did anyway. I'll spare the play by play and just say that I had a blast, played outstanding, had some highlight reel matches on the pay per view table (including a 5-0 victory against one of my long time pool heroes in which he didn't even get to shoot because I ran all five racks, this one's coming to youtube soon
), and overall had pretty good results in these tournaments. Not my career moment, but I rediscovered the rhythm of competition, those doubts and fears became more and more distant and it was just fighting hard and scrambling through racks of balls, which is what I love to do.
One thing I find interesting is that my road partner on this trip was a younger guy, 25 years old. He has quite different views on the world than I do and it got me thinking about some things.
To set up my new train of thought I'll recap a few of my world views that form the basis. It seems to me for most of human history we didn't have choices about what our lives would look like, we were born into a certain life and that's the life we had to live. People had to find ways to adapt to their environment, instead of adapting their environment to them. It is this hardship that forced us to develop traditions and religions, to find meaning in our suffering and make the best of what we had. Marriage in particular was a dominant model because it was a requirement for survival throughout these oppressive times.
After WWII in the 1950s we started to accumulate a surplus of economic resources, technology was developing, and for the first time people weren't forced to follow the old rules for survival. The result was inevitably, the 60s counter culture questioning all of the old beliefs and traditions. It was like a rock long disturbed was uprooted and suddenly the beetles and insects started scampering every direction.
Some of this was good. Think about barbaric traditions such as sacrificing virgins to imaginary deities so the corn crop would come in. This is a tradition that humanity can say, 'hey guys, we've learned a little bit, we don't need to keep doing this anymore'. On the other hand there are many traditions that embody the collective wisdom of thousands of generations we've discovered on how we can best exist together.
One big challenge is how we can tell which is which. And another challenge is that if each of us tries to decide on our own which traditions are positive and which need to go, the result is that we don't have any universal set of values and therefor chaos ensues, like an orchestra where everyone is trying to play their own favorite song. Yes it's freedom, but something is lost in that we aren't harmonious. And as we interpret for ourselves our morality it is too easy to modify our beliefs to match our personal desires.
I've been looking at this with a sense of loss. A loss of the institution of marriage. A loss of the model of sacrifice, servitude, lives dedicated to finding purpose in our suffering. And I used to harbor much more resentment towards XW and other WAS's who I felt had made the choice to go down a road of pursuing selfish worldly desires that was creating a pattern that would bring tremendous pain upon ourselves and destroy much of what we built over many lifetimes.
My friend feels differently. He feels that we were chained down by circumstance and that we are now free to choose our own paths. He views this as a positive. He thinks that marriage and personal sacrifice are outdated traditions that we no longer need. Like we were chained up for so long we came up with traditions on how to live while being chained, and now we're not chained so it would be foolish to stay in our cells when the door isn't locked anymore just because that's what we've always done. I find this very interesting.
There are a few things we agree on. Right or wrong, we both think this is what is happening. We also think that it was and is inevitable. Human nature is human nature. If you leave kids to themselves they'll eat cookies and watch youtube. And similarly the members of our society aren't going to remain in miserable unfulfilling marriages and sacrifice their own personal happiness when they aren't forced to by circumstance. This is clear as even the anti-divorce forum members loath the idea of remaining in an unfulfilling marriage and can easily build cases in which abuse/addiction could justify divorce. We can talk about how we don't like it, but when it's our life that's miserable and we're free to define our own morality and society agrees it's hard for us to be the ones to remain in a difficult situation perpetually because of traditions that no one else is honoring.
And since I feel this is inevitable, I have let go of much of my resentment. I no longer look at my XW or other WASs as horrible people that made selfish choices that destroyed my family and are eroding the society we have built over millennia and dooming our children. Instead I almost feel they didn't have a choice, that we are all sinners and flawed humans and are being swept away in an irresistible current. Sure, a few people can be the exception and decide individually to fight the current, but the majority are going to be pulled downstream. I am no exception to that as proven by the fact I am debating these things for myself instead of following faithfully the teachings of the a priest or a higher power. While I still recognize each person gets to make their own choices, I am finding much more compassion for those being left to navigate their own way while the majority is racing down this path.
Another area I agree on with my friend is that we don't understand partnering up with another person at this time. He doesn't because he doesn't want to make the personal sacrifice, and would rather be free to pursue his own desires in life. I don't because I think that whoever I partnered with would think like he does and ultimately divorce me when they decided that the marriage was no longer working for them. And, as I've mentioned, I have a hard enough time making the sacrifice myself as while I don't always like it, I am human too. So to make a huge sacrifice that would test my dedication so I can endure a number of painful years until my spouse labels me as abusive and leaves to pursue their own happiness again, a result which looks like a foregone conclusion, doesn't seem like a bargain to me.
Maybe this will change at some point and I'll embrace the new ways of serial monogamy as a happy medium and content myself with 3-10 year stints of companionship that expires when it's no longer mutually beneficial. Maybe this will even be a sign of growth for me, a form of embracing what is available to me instead of rejecting it because it isn't everything I wanted. I'm not sure. But I'm not there at this point, that's for sure.
Much of this is churning over old ground, but as time passes and I hear other peoples' input my views gradually evolve. It's too bad we each have to try to go through this and find our own beliefs and we have lost the harmony and much wisdom of the ages, but it does seem inevitable and has carried many benefits in terms of reduction of suffering through oppression. While some will always succumb to chasing worldly pleasures, we still have the choice to appreciate what we have and find meaning in our suffering and purpose in our servitude. I, being human, have a nice mix of both in my life.
OK. Time to play some online chess and veg out for a bit, then back to work to get caught up. Hope you guys all had a good weekend and have a happy holiday!
Dearest Zues,
Challenging as always, I admire the way you direct your anger into productivity and drive.
Maybe this is a process with steps except I now seem to have some of the Zues philosophy of life. I do see these waywards in active selfish mode as wasteful beings especially when their selfish behaviour damages homes and children to either get their trousers off, knickers down or disappear into addictions of other kinds. And whilst previously I might have had a little softness on it that's gone.
Abuse is abuse, I do believe in M, I believe in standing, doing everything for the LBS so that they can be the strong stable one for their children. And actually OM and OW can rot in hell as far as I am concerned. Under pond scum and brown stuff.
Sometimes we play our part, I recollect screaming banshee in myself as a most unattractive phase. On the other hand accepting that the other has their choices and really it's none of my business is certain to be part of my thinking.
My battle with the G continues unabated so some of that Zues directed anger is needed by V. Zues is a man I admire very much, he is intelligent and gifted with words but more than that he has great love for his children, has been burdened (like V) with massive fin obligations and has not only survived but thrived.
I will merely say Happy New Year Zues and thank you for being here.
V
It's clear my life priorities have rearranged.
Work was so important to me for so many years. When I went through the D I didn't have the same energy to put into my job and I fell to the middle of the pack. I kept waiting for it to come back. It never did.
But the weirdest thing is I'm totally ok with that. It just doesn't seem as important as it used to. Now I look forward to the time I have with my children and work is just what I do to pay the bills. I am really, really, really fortunate to have the job I do. I set my own schedule which lately has been a fair amount of 10-4 type shifts with a few phone calls or texts or emails here and there as needed. I am good enough that I'm still getting what needs to get done done. Sometimes I'll put in a long day, just as often I'll put in a very light one. And I'm doing well enough to avoid any issues and still bring in enough money to pay the bills. Oh, and I'm down to 13 more payments to XW so after that things will automatically get MUCH easier.
The time with my kids has been irreplaceable. I'm reading to them every night still, this time it's "Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus". There are a few hard parts for them but we're getting through it and it's awesome. We're still playing a lot of games but I've given up on my kids really taking anything on seriously, we just dabble for fun. Last game we got was "Clue". D7 wouldn't stop wiggling in her chair and finally one of the legs broke off (it screwed back on). I couldn't help myself, I said "I think D7 did it in the dining room with her fat butt" and everyone just died laughing. Oh, I hesitated for a moment because that's probably not PC, but she's not overweight or anything and I couldn't help myself. I don't think I traumatized her or anything, she was laughing harder than anyone. Anyway, just randomly thinking about time with my kids.
Tomorrow we go volunteer, packing food for the hungry. I'm excited to bring them with, I think it will be good for them. What else? S13 is slacking again at school, so I'm doing my part to gently (or even a bit not so gently) guide him the right way. But we're also doing things together. He's the computer kid so I've got him starting to mine cryptocurrency. I don't know if we'll ever make ten cents but it's something we can do together. D10 has a book of riddles we've been working through. Just living life I guess.
And I'm hook line and sinker back to pool. I've rediscovered my desire. No wonder work looks dull. I'm working on my game again. I have to. It's not a choice like 'gee, it would be nice if I was better at pool, maybe if it's possible I should see if I can play well..." No, it's more of a must, like I just can't rest easy as long as I know there's still a shot that I don't have perfected. I'll never reach perfection, and the only solace I can achieve is from putting in enough hard work that I feel I've earned a break because I've pushed farther than I thought I could.
This hard work, along with being partnered with this young superstar, has me playing the best pool of my life. I've played two more tournaments since last post. The state championship 8 ball and 9 ball was two weekends ago. I took 3rd in the 8 ball and ended up winning the 9 ball. Then last weekend I took 2nd in a big 9 ball tournament and 3rd in the 8 ball division. What was cool about that is we had Ronnie Alcano, a two time Phillipino champion in the field. I played him and beat him 7-1, then later played him again and beat him 7-0. That's the short version. I'll just say that was rather special. My partner also had good finishes in these last few tournaments, taking a 2nd and a 1st along the way. And we played a doubles division as a pair and took that down too.
Man it feels good. Hard to describe. I told my friend the reason I wasn't choking in these pressure spots was because it didn't seem like a big deal. I'm going after perfection. I want to polish and master every shot of the game, and put it together flawlessly topped off by insatiable hunger and drive and an unequalled positive attitude. That's what I'm driving towards. I know I'll never get there, but that's the only goal that matters. As a consolation prize I'll have a lot of thrilling victories along the way. But they don't make me nervous because that's not the goal, it's not like "If I win this game I've done it" or something. No, if I win tournaments it's not because I've achieved perfection, it's because there are moments that my opposition has fallen further from perfection than I have. Not something to be all that proud of, and not something that I'm nervous about. I just keep trying to reach a goal I'll never hit. Not even because it's effective. Because I have to.
This week was a good example. There were some things I was struggling with that were very discouraging. Shots off the end rail, shooting with an elevated cue, whatever. Some things come so hard for me that I want to quit forever. This is where the positive results I've gotten help. I have to remind myself I'm not the worst player in the world, it just feels hopeless, I have to keep going. So I grind and grind and grind and grind and do drills and take a break, then more drills, then a break, day after day after day. Then finally tonight I'm drilling and the shots start looking clear. I completed a drill for the first time in my life yesterday I've struggled with for years, then I did it again today. Little signs that I'm making minuscule progress. But it's progress. Then I rack up the straight pool and run 98 on my first try. I did choke as I had a shot to hit 100 (which is a pretty nice sized run that is a lifetime milestone for many) but that wasn't important to me. I was so pleased with how I was striking the balls. After as discouraged as I felt, it was a blessing to have an hour of perfection at the table.
Anyway, that's it in a nutshell. I'm going to have a good weekend with my kids, then next weekend I'll degen out and put in some more work on my game. In between I'll make sure to put a few deals together at work so the wheel keeps turning. Life is going good guys, and just like in pool where by the time I get any positive results I definitely feel I've earned it for the work I've put in, I feel that way in life too. It's good, I'm blessed for what I've been given, but I've also had to go through an awful lot to be in a spot where all feels well.
Take care my DBing friends.
What a lovely post dearest Zues
Almost zen
Although that's a V thing to say.
V
Zues, it's great to hear you are finding yourself again. It's like welcoming an old friend, isn't it?
I always love to hear what you are reading to your kids. I read to my kids daily long past the age that most people do. It was our daily ritual and we all looked forward to it. Sometimes I'll hear about a married couple that reads to each other and that seems like the most romantic thing in the world to me. Not something Mr. P and I ever did. I'd like to someday.
I hope your weekend is going well, my friend.
Zeus, reading your post brought back a lot of memories of my dad who passed away 2 years ago. His biggest passion in life, that I knew of, was pool. He wasn't the caliber player you are, but he was passionate about playing. Some of my best memories of him are from when he used to play, thank you for queuing those memories up for me.
You are lucky to be so good at something you have passion for, it must be so fulfilling in life. I'm finding things that I'm passionate about, I'm not that good at them, but I'm having a lot of fun...
HI Zues,
I just wanted to drop by and let you know I am always reading. It is so obvious you have a passion that ignites every part of you. Sometimes when we have one thing that fuels our soul, it accelerates every area of our life.
Keep on shooting high and having fun. I think that might be the difference in you these days. You still strive for perfection, but you have fun doing it. You don't define yourself by whether or not you have reached perfection or by a bad pool day, or even by a really good pool day. You are enjoying the ride, and that's what's most important.
And look up "Scott Simonetti pool" and a great story and clip will come up with an inspirational pool player.
So glad you found your "passion" again, in the form of pool. Sounds like things are going well for you. Keep that up!
A tip of the hat to you brother, looks like you're finding your passion again.
Cheers,
PP
Thank you all for taking the time to read and reply!
Coconut, thank you for sharing about your father. I will tell you this much my friend; in my entire life, some of my favorite memories with pool are the quiet times. Sharing some table time with a friend on a Saturday afternoon. Playing some music on the jukebox. Rolling them around for a few hours and trying to scramble over the obstacles that we create for each other. Then shaking hands win or lose in that manly way where we know we just shared some deeply quality time but we don't really need to talk about it, we can just do it again in a month or two. It sounds like your father found the same peace and fulfillment I do from the game. Who knows, maybe his spirit is still racking them up somewhere in the sky and giving you a big thumbs up right now. What I do know is I'm giving him a thumbs up from here.
Ginger, yes, I know of Scott S. The pool forums I read actually featured a news feed about him potentially getting into a big money match so I learned a little about him reading that thread. It is a very cool story and I'll let you know if he wins should that match go down, or if I ever run into him on the tables.
V, Dawn, PP, always nice to hear from you. I'm not sure if I'm approaching zen or re-discovering my insanity, but either way it feels like I'm home.
I am proud to share that my US ranking just cracked the top 30. The 7-1/7-0 wins over a highly ranked world champ really moved the needle more than I expected, combined with some other good performances lately. I'm pretty excited about this.
Here's why. At the table, there is often a bully and someone that is being bullied. There is one guy that is trying to beat the other guy, and there is one guy trying not to get beat. All of my life, I've been the guy that is being bullied on the pool table. Whether it was because I was the youngest child and all of my brothers and sisters were older than me by years and always beat me at everything. Or whether it was because I struggle with belief and everyone else always looks better and more confident and stronger at the table than I feel. But I've always felt outmatched by the top players. And they often act like real bullies, sneering if I am winning, making snide comments, offering to play me for thousands of dollars, things like that.
So when I play I am not trying to beat the other players, rather my goal is to defend myself. All I want to do is to be unaffected by their attitudes and intimidation tactics, and to play on the table the way I do on my practice table at home, to treat it as just another practice session. And the most satisfying thing in the world is that even though they look like Goliath and I feel like David, when I just shut my feelings away and don't allow them to trick me into surrendering and giving up, and instead I just keep working hard, staying focused on the task at hand...all of those skills I have worked on for so long hold me up, and sometimes I look back and have wins I never would've believe I could achieve. Normally in life belief comes and success follows, but for me it's been the opposite. I grind my way to high levels and then I truly can't believe some of what's happened for me. So to see my rating climb is incredible, because many of those I'm rated next to or even above make me fearful and intimidated, yet there I stand. Very satisfying and validating.
On to books. Sunny, I think we've talked about reading to our partners before. I tried that with XW but she wasn't into it and would inevitably fall asleep on page 1 or 2 of whatever I picked up. Yes, I agree it's the most romantic thing in the world. I haven't been reading personally as much as I used to, but when I find the right page turner I can still burn an evening here and there.
Hope you guys have a great day!
I've been watching the show "This Is Us" with my mom. For anyone that hasn't seen it it's a real tear jerker. I don't know that I've seen anything that evokes more heartache. And at the center of it all is this family and how the husband dies while the kids are still young. The show flashes forward and back during different times of their lives and it is just this gut wrenching tragic loss that has monumentally impacted and shaped all of their lives. The mother who is widowed after his death eventually remarries but on the anniversary of her first husband's death she spends the day by herself and allows herself to re-experience the grief of this loss. It's clear that she was able to keep living and continue to find some joy in the world in the second part of her life, but it's equally clear that the pain is something that she'll always have to bear.
What's strange about it is that my XW chose this. The same loss that this grief stricken woman would've given anything to avoid, and my XW chose this. And I'm not alone. I'm sharing this because you are all here with me. It's incomprehensible to me. I don't think I'll ever understand it and while some part of my brain still tries to in an effort of absolute closure I am kind of glad I can't.
The other part of the show I find funny is it's humorous attempt to show a 'real gritty' marriage. Back in the early sitcom days shows like Leave it to Beaver showed outdated but very unrealistically perfect family life. Now a days shows are still doing that, but instead of showing a perfect family life with no tension, they try to show difficult tension but then the characters somehow work through it all. For example, the husband is an alcoholic, and he hides it from his wife, and when she finds out he stays on his friend's couch for a few days...but then they reconnect, she says if it's his problem then it's their problem and she's there with him, and he starts going to meetings and gets sober. The whole time he is dad of the year. There are other examples but I find it hysterical. These shows still portray Disney marriages, but now they have evolved to PG13 version to make them seem more realistic. I call BS. Realistic would've been her filing divorce, or him cheating on her with an understanding coworker, or his drinking escalating and him never seeing the children and her changing the locks and deciding to wrench full custody of the kids with a trumped up abuse charge. I guess audiences vote with their remote control and people still want fantasy.
I think it's human nature to be entitled. I told my friend the other day that I am put off by the idea of making your passions into your career. Now, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it per se. If you can contribute to your community the most by using the gifts you are given, and simultaneously feel rewarded by success and the satisfaction of doing something well that you enjoy, great. It is when it becomes self serving that I get a bad taste in my mouth.
We are the generation where it's glamorized to find a job where you can just do what makes you happy all the time. Like someone that wants to be a life coach, so they wake up, do their yoga, hop over to the coffee shop to have a cappuccino while updating their blog, throwing an inspirational quote on their website, then going to some swank office so they can smugly advise their clients how they too can follow their passions and find the same enlightened way of living that they have.
The problem with this is it doesn't scale. If everyone followed their passion it wouldn't work. Streets need to get tarred, garbage trucks need to be driven, phones need to be answered. 7 billion people on this planet can't just pursue their passions and the world still turn. And until we reach the utopia where AI has solved everything and we can all write poetry about how painful our trouble free lives are, people that are pursuing their passions are doing so on the slave labor of the rest of society that doing whatever they need to in order to get by. They may feel like they earned their lifestyle by working hard and out competing others, but in many cases they are extremely privileged and fortunate to be the right person at the right time.
Again, I'm all about manifesting your potential, being successful, and enjoying that success. I think is should be the goal to contribute as much as possible with your gifts and then enjoy the rewards that brings, not to make your goal achieving the most rewards possible for yourself.
This is parallel to the entitlement I see in how people view relationships. People no longer work for one employer and get a gold watch retirement because they believe they are looking for the job with the ping pong table in the break room that wants them to sit in bean bag chairs to inspire creativity, and similarly people aren't ready to give up on the idea of that This is Us Marriage. The Life Coach Marriage. No one's ready to take the garbage truck marriage.
I'm a garbage truck quality guy. And most women are answering the phone quality women, only worse because they are looking for life coach lives. This is why things look like they break down.
I don't think this is a problem exactly in the sense that someone is doing something wrong, or that there's a solution. Just seems like human nature. Just posting a few of my thoughts. I don't talk about this stuff with anyone else so I'll just inflict it on you all.
Otherwise all is still going reasonably well, nothing so horrible it's stopping me from enjoying myself. I'll update more on everything else another day, take care and have a good weekend!
Hey Zues
Many people have recommended that show to me, but I have not yet watched it.
I have written before about how hard and hurtful it is that our spouses have chosen an elective death. I think the reason I have never been able to end a relationship (even when they were unhealthy, not bound by formality and no kids were involved) was because I did not want to have to grieve. That is a really hard experience and choosing it was something I could never do. Like you, it does not make sense that others can do it. Or elect to do it. Do they value another person less? Or themselves more? Perhaps they are stronger for it. I do not know. Its just a different perspective that I do not comprehend. its cold and self serving. But maybe it would have been better for me to have been more self serving. My life would have been better. Maybe its a better trait to have for evolutionary purposes.
Regarding addiction, it is annoying when movies and books neatly tie it into that "this is us" package you described. My ex was way too high functioning to be an addict. I didnt know you could be a junkie and not be skinny and on the streets. And instead of seeking help from me or AA meetings, he just kept his secret hidden by divorcing me. But not until after he villified me and marriage. Maybe I wont watch that show now!
I like your garbage truck analogy. I think its just a matter of perspective though. There are some people that prefer and find more security in something real and tangible. There are others that prefer ease and good feelings even if they are fleeting or not real. It works when 2 people have similar perspectives maybe.
For me, marriage was symbolic of family. Meaning, sure we all have flaws but family is family and you take care of each other because of love commitment and tradition. I never expected it to be endorphin filled or disposable or life coach quality.
Yeah Zues top 30!
So so proud of you.....
Not my place but I am
V
Juju, V, thank you and good to hear from you.
Tonight I wanted some input from you all.
My thoughts turned to XW's near live in boyfriend. I have always been aware that abuse could be a threat, but the reality of the possibility takes on more meaning when she stops looking like a little girl and starts looking like a beautiful young woman. This doesn't mean the threat wasn't always possible, it just seems more conceivable somehow.
Anyway, I have zero reason to think that her mother's borderline live in boyfriend is anything but a fine outstanding citizen. Yet I don't know him at all and have no idea what goes on at XW's house. I do know that XW is a very, very protective mother.
So my question is this- should I have some type of talk with my daughter? As I type this I realize I don't have to talk to her about this man in particular, I could talk about abuse in general. I don't want to start a rumor that I'm in any way suspicious. But I want to do my part to look out for my kids. What's the best way to frame that type of conversation?
Zeus, yes, you should talk to her. About abuse, about boundaries, about how she should expect to be treated in all types of relationships. But not in just one or two conversations. These are the things that come out and develop over time. After the movie or the tv show or when you see the couple at the restaurant or when you hear the news story. When you are in the car together and when you tuck her in at night. Yes, talk to her. And keep talking.
Agreed ^^^^^
I think it is also important for kids to know that you will always believe them no matter what. They need to be comfortable confiding in you. (Boys as well as girls)
Theres a great book called Protecting the Gift that talks about predators and how to empower your kids. Highly recommended.
Something interesting in that book was how we should not teach kids to never talk to strangers when they are young.
How teaching kids to talk to strangers is important because then they get the power of picking who to talk to if they do get lost or separated. Whats more helpful is teaching them who are more likely to be safe strangers to approach.
He had other advise for older kids and women as well. How often times a female is imbreded with the idea of being nice and agreeable amd polite and how predators exploit that.
Hey Zues, this is a talk a parent should have no matter what. I totally understand why this would become more pertinent if your ex's BF is moving in, even if he is not that kind of guy. These lessons will become valuable in many situations she may as well encounter. I am also hoping your exW is having these same talks with her as her mom teaching a her daughter how to protect her body and stand up for herself.
I have known some great single dads with daughters who have felt bad that they couldn't have sleepovers for their daughters on their time. They know it's not the right thing to do. My BFF's daughter has a best friend and even though my BFF's H is the greatest guy, she still wouldn't allow sleepovers without the presence of my BFF. I leave my daughter alone with her friend at their house because they are non-blood related family.
The best thing you could od is teach your daughter boundaries with her body and that she is always safe no matter what to tell you or her mother if something she is not comfortable with happened.
You are a great father, zues.
I wish I had the exact stat but I've heard Dr. Phil say countless times how the presence of a non biological male adult in the home increase the chance of molestation by, I want to say, 21 times. I know it's a large statistical increase. That's just sad but true.
It's also sad that those of us who would never think if doing anything inappropriate have to be careful with anything we do - like a sleep over with a friend of a daughter. I recently saw an attractive woman with her adorable daughter and was going to say something. Truth be told I thought the mom was hot and wanted to say hello. I did say something to mom but kept my mouth shut about mentioning how adorable her 10 ish year old daughter was for fear of sounding creepy. That's just so sad as I'm the last guy who'd ever have "those" type of thoughts but it's today's reality.
I don't like any of it but it is our reality. You don't like it either nor think that BF is a threat but you never know. Talking in general terms s a good move and well supported.
The kids that get abused are those least likely to say anything or be believed. That applies to all kinds of abuse.
The target will be the kid who is 'mousy' and sadly don't forget boys they can be targeted too.
Your children's best defence is YOU, and the confidence they have in telling you anything.
So, yes, it's your connection and openness with your children that counts and their confidence that you will listen.
V
Zues
You have been given some great advice from some solid people.
Remember Zues you have been engaging in "keeping yourself safe conversations" with your children since they were born.
Your conversations have been based on your children's developmental stages, and for the most part they were focussed on the 'safe topics' related to child safety, like not poking things into to electric topics and not running around with food and wearing helmets while skating or biking.
You have likely felt comfortable delving into stopping violence converastions- 'good behaviour' related to not hitting others and not allowing others to hit you, using kind words rather than unkind words. T
These conversations about violence tend to be a parents first interface with conversations about personal boundaries, often physical boundaries. The keeping yourself safe conversation related to personal space related to one's body and sexual safety is just an extension of this conversation. And often where parents feel less comfortable.
Ideally when discussing physical violence or verbal violence parents could or should be adding the boundaries related to good and bad touch too. Ideally again , the younger you start these conversations, often the easier it is when a new developmental stage and situation occurs, as you already have a language and narrative related to it to fall back on.
We haven't talked about stranger danger for a long time in this work. We instead talk about 'safe adults'. And this is based on a child's understanding of their own sense of who and what feels safe to them. This is a learned skill.
The research in this strongly supports that children who have experience of and language to articulate their emotions, are often able to identified and express there unsafe feelings and are better able to set clear boundaries for themselves and others, including adults. Those children who struggle in this area are children, who have often been on the receiving end of mixed messages from the adults in their lives.
Overall Zues these conversations are not necessarily about the topic at hand, but more about skill development related to recognising emotions....what behaviours in others makes me feel comfortable or uncomfortable... what does boundary crossing feel like to me, what does my body feel when someone has crossed a boundary. What do I do with these feelings when they confuse me. What is a respectful way of saying no.
You have written on occasion about how you have handled your son's at times challenging behaviours and your have presented reasonable and considered parenting interventions to address these. I believe you will find a parenting response that sits with your values and parenting style.
Please too, as V said abuse does not see gender.
Also I am not sure why people think children are safer when women are in a home. I am all for minimising risks for children. But lets be clear women perpetrate all kinds of violence on children; I can assure you of that. Men are not our enemy here, adults that hurt children are.
Just my invaluable two cents Zues.
Much Love JellyBxxx
Thank you. Sunny, V, Juju, G, JB, what a team I have. I'm glad I asked. You each brought up some good points.
There is a lot of this I haven't done directly, such as start young, or talk about boundaries too much. But as I look back maybe I have to some extent and just didn't realize the significance. I can think of a few conversations and am sure there were others, and of course there's leading by example. Regardless, I am going to look for opportunities to bring up these things without having a big sit down conversation. I'm going to sit with your posts for a few more days and probably read up on a few things and try to feather it in little by little.
OK- quick pool update. I am in full out beast mode. My buddy and I just got back from a tournament in WI. 9 ball and 8 ball. He took 1st in the 9 ball, 2nd in the 8 ball. I took 3rd in the 9 ball, 1st in the 8 ball. We essentially took home all the money.
It's fun to win. It's fun to make money. And it's fun to see improvement and use the skills you work on in battle. I've always played well when I was on my best game, but lately it seems like my average and low gears are getting really tough. When I stumble I bounce back very quickly. I fight much harder when I'm not in the mood (tired, feeling disengaged, right after a loss, frustrated, etc). All in all, I'm turning into the player I've always wanted to be and am getting the results I've wanted all of my life. Playing with this guy as a co-pilot is really pushing me hard to keep up, and I'm close. He's probably doing 60% to my 40% in terms of prize money won over the last 6 tournaments but I know I'm giving my all and I'm probably pushing him at times too!
In a few months I have some bigger matches lined up with national and international competition that will prove a bigger test. For now I'll play regional and keep preparing as best I can.
OK, ok, enough now. Just feels to good not to share. Thank you again and talk soon!
Hey guys! It's been a while. I haven't had much to post and it's pretty easy for me to retreat within myself.
Everything is going great.
My job, which has been a two year roller coaster, seems to be on an upswing. I was number one in April and am leading so far in May. January-March I had two of my best months, and what I did in the last 5 weeks has already exceeded that for quarter two. I don't know if it's repeatable but that buys me some time to figure all of that out and means I won't be looking for work in 2018 at least.
Family is awesome. Let's see. S13 is about to turn 14. He, like me when I was his age, is a huge Beatles fan. Ringo Starr, the drummer, has a concert in MN in September and I got him tickets for his birthday. I couldn't surprise him because his birthday is 3 weeks out and he was stressing about tickets selling out every day, sometimes the surprise isn't the most important thing. He's thrilled. He's a good kid, he's still been spending time with the rest of the family when we play games together and he's done an impressive job setting some better habits and keeping his grades up. It will be good to go to this show.
D11 is a blast. We went to the Mall of America yesterday for a school field trip, I ended up being a chaperon and riding on a ton of roller coasters and eating ice cream. Good times. We're still reading every night, watching shows (the new National Geographic series about the Earth, "This Strange Rock"). D11 is also starting to play some seriously good pool. I found out that the pool youth league next season is on Sundays, it is a little ways away but since it's on the weekend I think I can get her there. She has the potential to do very well and may find herself getting opportunities to fly and compete nationally. Or she might lose interest. Who knows. But it's fun to play with her. I'd like her to see what it's like to play other kids instead of her dad.
D7 is doing pretty well. She is becoming a read-o-holic which is awesome. I'm reading her choose your own adventures and she loves them. She's gotten a lot bigger. She still thinks she is a little kid sometimes and it's possible her mom might encourage that. There was a time XW liked my kids to be someone dependent and needy to feel needed and loved, but who knows, that was three years ago and I've been impressively distant since then so she may be a different person now. But I've been really impatient that D7 doesn't demand more from herself. She is kind of ditsy, like "I'm just a little girl" which doesn't fly with me. So I'm kind of putting the hammer down a bit, not accepting excuses and demanding what I know she's capable of. My kids may have a complex or hate their dad when they get older but they're not going to be helpless whiny victims that shrug and mumble 'I dunno, that's all I can do'.
What else? Pool? Man, I haven't been playing much. Tournaments haven't been popping up at the right times, and I don't skip my family weekends to compete. It's been two months of mostly practicing. And 80% of my practice is on my break, which is tedious, tedious work. I don't really have any desire to achieve any particular outcome with pool, but I have a vision of what I could do if I had a top notch break on top of my current level of play. I think it would be fun to put that together and then run it a few times in national competition. Just to do it, to enjoy the feeling of putting my true best self forward. The results will be what they will be and don't really matter to me.
Boy, pretty boring really. Oh, I have problems. I have been struggling to try to get into a work out routine and have been intermittent at best. But overall I just feel like everything is about as good as it gets. Something will give at some point and rock my world so I'll enjoy this while it lasts. But I also know that I've gone through the darkest hours of my life and I am prepared to survive more suffering when it next surfaces in my life.
Thanks for the note and be well DB gang!
HI Zues,
I haven't been around much lately (well for months really) and this morning (saturday May 5th almost 8am NZ time) I thought I would stop by and say hello. And find that you updated yesterday.
I'm pleased that life is finding a pace that is good. After the years that we have faced a little boredom and lack of drama is refreshing. I appreciate your comments on the "something will give at some point". We have grown Zues when the anticipation of the next part dip on the roller coaster of life isn't anxiety producing.
Your children sound delightful and real. You worked hard to have what you do with them. Great to see you have that reward.
As for me, from mid 2017 work has got me down, I took on a role I don't really think I am suited to. Management is not my thing. But I am learning more about my self and my skill set. I am learning more and more that too much contact with people leaves me drained and anxious. Still trying to figure out the balance.
My home life and relationship are settled in some kind of way. It is at least predictable in it's unpredictability. My man and I celebrated two years of our long distant relationship in March 2018. We have been back and forth between our respective home countries over the last two years. It has been a significant investment in time money and emotion, but well worth it. I am a very lucky woman to have found him. I am by far the happiest and settled I have ever been. We are not the perfect couple by any stretch. We have lots of similarities, in that we are both introverts, lacking in self confidence. We have some points of contention, and unresolveables. But we neither of us a fighters. We have found some good problem solving strategies and have both learned to let go. He loves my body as it is. His view is that all women are beautiful and sexy and I am more so given he chose me. I have learned to trust his view of my body, I trust him when he says I am sexy that I turn him on. I don't push his hands away or hide my naked self from him. I think this level of trust makes him feel good. I however remain in quiet discord about my body and the reasons he would be physically attracted to me. More importantly though our values are and our feelings about commitment in relationships are the same. The trust is high between us. We have been talking about our future together which has involved conversations about marriage and a move of countries for one of us. Things will likely start moving forward in the fall when his youngest starts college.
So if am moving to my man's home town a new career path is likely on the horizon. I cannot practice in his home town very easily. A big process and financial investment. It's a starting over at the bottom of the rung for me if I choose to remain in my current career. His home country pays really poorly for what I do. I am struggling with the thought of being so financially dependent. He says it would be a pleasure to support me, given that I am moving my life to be with him and if are to be partners this is what needs to happen. He says it is the right thing to do. I have never been financially dependent on anyone, not even my mother. I had my first part time job at 14 years old, as my mother was a single parent on minimum wage. From age 14 my mother paif my school fees and my school uniform and put food on the table and roof over my head. I looked after everything else. It will be a challenge for me. But I feel lucky that he he values the opportunity to support me.
My mum has been in remission from her cancer for about 16 months. She seems to be in the place of balance between feeling old but still wants was to live her life. But seems so incredibly torn with feeling her body it is not up to it. The mind wants and the body is slowing her down. We have talked a lot about what she wants at her end of life. I love her dark humour about it all, I know I am my mother's daughter in the way I can match her in conversation about death and dying. The the thing she worried about the most is a pain death. We have decided that we will experiment with medicinal marijuana. Some edibles first we think. Let the baking begin. BTW we don't have medical marijuana where I live. We joke about her getting her first criminal offence as a 76 year old granny. Personally I love the idea. Finger to 'the Man' I say. Anyway my mum has been able to convince my 85 year old aunt to go on a cruise to and around French Polynesia. This is something for her to look forward to. She cannot fly due to two blood clots she got from the chemo for her cancer. Which makes my possible move overseas a little devastating for me. But we will figure it out.
Anyway Zues a wee update from me. I still think of your often. You and a few others are the only reason I still stop by. Good to hear from you.
Talk again soon. Much love
JellyB XXX
Hi Jelly, thank you for replying! I'm very glad to hear the update and have you around.
That is a predicament with the move. I'm all for you going, but it is a hard sacrifice to be away from your family too. I don't know the right thing to do. I know my family is scattered all over the world these days, but somehow we are still here for each other when it really matters. Maybe you can move and start a new life with your man and still stay close when the chips are down. Don't let money stand in the way at least, when you make this move you're investing a lot more than money already, might as well go all in.
Well, it's been a hard week for my family. My sister, the one who I've had a fragile relationship as she was an accomplice to XW during her wayward period and ultimately bff's through the divorce, has had her life crash down. She is 41 and has had a hard life from angry divorcing parents as a child, to heroin addiction from her late teens through her 20s, to a pretty abusive relationship through her 30s. It's like a spiral where she was dealt a tough hand and made some bad choices and they have rippled through her life and no matter how hard she's tried to get back on top of it she's struggled to come out on top.
The last year or two it seemed like she broke through. There is a guy that she has known for a long time but despite a strong friendship kept a distance because he too came from a checkered background and that's where she knew him from. She wanted to avoid that. But years later he'd straightened up his life and they reconnected and eventually fell in love. I can't describe the 18 months they had together, it was romantic and passionate and filled her life up, like the Titanic love affair that never ended. It was culminating with wedding plans for this summer. It seems like I just rsvp'd the invitations.
She came home Sunday and found him dead. Overdose. Apparently he had an old friend that was desperate to score something and he finally agreed to help out and made a connection for him. Not sure what prompted him to the lapse for sure, but I know they'd recently suffered a huge loss. See, after a lifetime of gradually resigning herself to never becoming a mom (she was recently single at 40 and had given up), she had gotten pregnant and was an expecting mother. Well, she miscarried and they just lost the baby. This was obviously devastating. Regardless of why, this man made a horrible mistake and didn't get any more chances.
Now my sister is suffering the loss of her fiance and love of her life on top of the loss of the children she thought she'd have with him. And she kind of had all of her eggs in one basket, he was her world. Given her past and the road she's been down I really don't know how she'll make it through, every purpose she had and her identity has been revoked utterly. I'm at a loss. It's so profoundly shocking how you can truly lose everything.
I was with her today and will be again tomorrow and the next day and will go from there. I'm looking at pictures with her and listening to stories about him. What can I do?
Meanwhile my son isn't doing well with it. He's dealt with a lot and never really recovered, so events like this trigger him in frightening ways. He had to leave school today and wasn't in a good spot. It wasn't my night with him but I arranged to see him, after I left my sisters we went for a drive and talked for an hour or so. I'm not up to duplicating what I shared with him but it was what I was given to say and I think, despite feeling totally helpless, I think I found a way to help. Both by being there and in some other ways too. He's a good boy and I believe he will find his way through.
So now I'm just shot.
In general I feel super solid right now. I feel like I went through a 3 1/2 year boot camp and I am prepared to do whatever is in front of me. It's funny, I was a bad husband in many ways and cringe at how immature I behaved. For the first time I feel like I'm a strong man.
Doodler, if you're reading this, I've been a Jordan Peterson fan as well. I love what he says about reducing suffering. He uses the example of standing up tall so when your parents die you can help organize the funeral and say a few good words instead of sobbing in the corner and getting into fights with your siblings. JP also is the first person I've ever heard who appears to make the same case for marriage that I've made. It's pretty validating. Maybe another post I'll mention the key words that will call up that video clip, I wanted to share but not my point right now. But I booked VIP tickets to a JP lecture coming to MPLS and am taking my best friend. I played a JP clip for my friend and he likes him as much as I do so we're going to go to his gathering and even meet him after the show briefly. That's something to look forward to.
What a day. I'm still in so much shock I am just stunned and in 'task completion' mode. But please, a moment of silence for my sister's sitch. Thank you all.
Wow, that's so tragic for your sister. You're a good brother and dad. God bless.
Doodler, if you're reading this, I've been a Jordan Peterson fan as well.
Zues,
I really like JP. He's a deep-thinker and, regardless of what anyone may think of him, he's certainly a caring and passionate person. I'd like to see the debate between JP and Sam Harris scheduled in June; I like both of them, but they have some real points of contention.
My parents are fundamentalist Christians but, even as a young kid, I couldn't swallow the literal interpretations of the Bible as used in their brand of religion. Needless to say, I'm not a religious person, but JP's metaphorical interpretations of religious and biblical teachings is very good. And, he integrates that into our modern day scientific knowledge. Good stuff.
I'm sorry about your sister.
My condolences zues. I imagine you must feel loss, but also sadness and concern for your sisters well being as well as your sons.
There are no words for such a loss. I look at addicion at that level as a really sad, unfair and destructive disease that extends out and beyond and deeply affects family amd society. Its a shattering loss of love and potential.
Im very sorry and wish for strength for your family.
Prayers and a moment of silence. I am so sorry. For the life that was lost, for your sister's hopes and dreams, for your sons fears, and all you have to deal with.
It really is a tragedy. I know you will be there for your sister and you are very empathetic to her sitch.
Again, I am so sorry.
Sincere condolences on the sad loss of such a precious life.
V
Zues, I am so sorry for your sister and the loss of her love and her child. Sometimes we don't understand the reasons for things occurring as they do, but your journey through loss, may provide her with some comfort and allows you to show the compassion and care she likely is desperately in need of at this time.
We are here for you as a shoulder to lean on, as she leans on yours.
All our love; you are in my thoughts.
JellyBxx
Thanks guys. It's been a heck of a week. Whirlwind of family, tears, and confusion.
I'm worried about my sister. I know she's in a very vulnerable spot. I know she doesn't feel she fits in with the normal group and feels more at home with the tortured artist types (musicians and artists, who are also recovering or active junkies and addicts). But there is a high cost for being part of that scene. She's been paying that cost for 20+ years. At what point do you decide to give it up?
I feel like she should reconnect with people from the church we grew up in. They know her and care about her. And while they may be 'boring', they are also ALIVE. I guess I'm a little angry about this. It seems so clear to me.
My sister got married to a guy 15 years ago, but divorced him a couple of years later because he was 'boring'. She just wasn't feeling it. She ended up hooking up with a drummer who was an active heroin user and was extremely abusive for the last few years of their relationship. I can't say it to her so I'll say it to you all: DUH!
I DON'T UNDERSTAND PEOPLE. Look. There are surface things like looks and fashion. Then there are measures like money, status, and education level. Then you've got things like personalities, interests, goals and dreams, political views, and religion. But underneath all of that you have values and beliefs.
It's these values and beliefs that in my mind really define a person. Do they stay in their marriage or do they walk? Do they follow a destructive path and bring everyone around them down with it, or do they take care of themselves and then try to help guide others through?
I am VERY careful about who I am close friends with. My best friend is married with three kids, a committed husband, and active in his church. He's very reflective and holds himself to a high standard. He is also a very successful business man, top pool player, funny, smart, and I'd imagine most women would think good looking. But my point is that he inspires me to be more like him. I'm lucky to have a friend like him and he's made a positive impact on my life. My other friends share these qualities. And while I have some fondness with good acquaintances that have some checkered lives, I won't get too close with them because I know I become the average of my 5 closes friends and I want to push myself in the right direction.
I just don't understand why people get so hung up on the surface things. So many people are careless with who they let into their lives. When it comes to partnering up most claim they care most about the values and beliefs (or they admit they want the unicorn partner that is a clean sweep on all levels), but there are so many examples of how this isn't what people do in practice.
I get it. The superficial is appealing and easier to identify, and we are animals that are influenced by emotions and hormones. But isn't there a point where we can become humans who transcend those? It's like the whole 'men want good looking girls and women want bad boys' thing. OK, that's fine, each to their own...but is that really how you're going to determine who you build a life with?
I am frustrated with my sister for leaving her husband who was an awesome guy. Oh, I don't know what went on behind closed doors but I do know that in her post divorce narrative she never accused him of anything nasty. And you all know how rare that is. Why did she leave him? For an abusive junkie? And then for another guy who would destroy her life and hopes of ever having a family?
I guess it wakes up feelings about why I'm where I'm at as well. Why did I get BD'd? I never closed my fist in anger. I didn't call her horrible names. I didn't refuse to get a job, or drink, or anything crazy. Looking back at the man I was in my 20s I was immature, lacked relationship skills, and definitely wasn't a great husband. But I was a rookie. I was still learning the job. I just will never understand why I was dumped any more than why my sister left her husband. And it's not just XW or my sister. These boards are filled with the same story.
I'm ok. These are just some of the questions I got numb to asking years ago. I understand why it was triggered, and now I can let go and keep going down my road. Meanwhile I can be there for my sister and give her a bump in the right direction when she's open to it now and then, but ultimately it's her road. This is hard to type but I'm I'm pessimistic about the quality and duration of her future. That stinks. A lot. Having her still here but feeling this sense of doom that something horrible is going to happen and you can't stop it.
She's my sister and I love her and don't want that. I just want to stop time so I don't have to see her taken away.
My prayers are with you and your family Zeus
This post resonated to me Zues.
Maybe people are just on different life paths. They have to figure it out themselves. Something so glaringly obvious to you does not really enter into their mind set. Not at this time. And yeah, its frustrating while you are watching it. Its like post BD. It is all so senseless and destructive and most of all avoidable.
Quantum physics does not come naturally to me. I am not even interested in attempting to learn about it. I do know it exists though. Some people do not. Same thing with relationships. For some people they don't know what they don't know. Or they just don't have the capacity. They view relationships and partners as I did when I was 15.
We all mature and grow differently. We all have different capacities. Different levels of emotional intelligence.
Maybe just be a friend to your sister for now. Accept her for who she is at this time. I think that's all you can do.
There are so many scenarios that makes no sense to us, but makes sense to other people.
One possible one with your sister, and I have seen with many people, and in this book I am reading.....
People self-sabotage because something in their brain tells them they don't deserve something good. Like your sister and the awesome first husband. Perhaps there is something in there that felt like she couldn't be good enough. It's truly sad. Sometimes people actually think they are doing the other person a favor.
There are so many depths to people that we could never truly understand. I have been learning that so much over the past few years.
I think I have told you..... my exH was my friend's boyfriend. I never ever let myself live it down what I did. I still have to deal with it in IC. She showed me at the time in my life it was a survivial mechanism. I lost everyone, I was 18, and I was scared I was going to die. In my head, it was hurt my friend, or not survive. I was not the kind of person who would hurt anyone like that. But I did. Good news is our friendship survived and we are very close.
I think not all people who do bad things are bad people. For some it is a survival mechanism.
You being there for support the way you are I am sure is a great help.
Thanks guys. You're right G, who the heck knows the deeper reasons people do the things they do.
Today my sister posted something about how she had married dead finance (DF). DF's mom performed the ceremony. She heard DF's voice say "I do" and felt his spirit in the nature as they walked through the places they used to spend time in together. This post was two pages long.
Now, this could be done in a way that made people think "That is so sweet". But the way it was done made me think "Norman Bates". It wasn't just me. My mom agreed that the post was creepy and delusional, and my mom is heading over to my sister's mother's place because she is freaked out after reading that post. You'll have to take my word for it. It was an 11/10 on the craziness scale.
My mom thinks sister was addicted to DF. I think she projected so much onto DF she hardly could see who he was, her glasses weren't just rose tinted, they were solid rose. Rose everywhere. DF stopped being a real person and he just became the symbol for every positive emotion she ever had. I'm talking major fog.
I'm ashamed to say this but I don't care. I'm almost sad that he died because I wanted to see this thing go down in flames so maybe she could get a wake up call and stop being so darn crazy.
The funny thing is it reminded me of the facebook post my XW made the day she came to after her failed suicide attempt. It was so expansive and overly dramatic and attention and sympathy and support seeking. I can't describe it. It was like a celebrity that goes to treatment and wants to be adored for it. When I told that to my mom she one hundred percent agreed. She speculated that's why sister and XW hit it off so well. They both lived in this dreamy world of twue wuv and happiness. No surprise they both were swept up in their respective affairs and both filed Ds.
This is why I have a low tolerance to embroidered sayings on pillows and pictures of pretty clouds with cliches about life on them. It's so XW.
And I have a deep distrust for people. Jordan Peterson said that money doesn't solve problems, and that in many cases it exasperates them because it removes the limits on the damage they could inflict on themselves. As long as someone has to go to work, as long as they can't afford to go off the deep end because of life consequences, reality holds them in check. But with enough money they can get lost. Think middle ages. A serf that had to work 14 hours a day might have crazy potential, but it couldn't be let out because they have to work. But the kings, boy, could THEY get out of control! Let's drive out all infidel, or conquer the world, or have 500 wives, or whatever else they feel they are destined to do.
I feel like there are two things that traditionally kept people's crazy in check: Hardship and society's belief system. And they are both eroding. Everyone of us today lives like a king of the middle ages. And our cultural values are helter skelter with the most consistent belief being that we are all free to find our own beliefs. What's left to reign in people's craziness? NOTHING.
I look around and so many people are so smug in what they think are enlightened belief structures, but meanwhile when you zoom way out and look at their lives they are train wrecks causing collateral damage to whoever gets too close. But they don't see that, because they either rewrite the narrative or don't acknowledge the damage they've done because hey, if it makes you happy it can't be that bad.
So you guys want to know why I'm the lone ranger over here? That's it. I think people don't place enough value on what matters that I could bring, they're too caught up in things that I don't feel matter that I might not, and they are too destructive for me to want to invite that into my life.
And I'm human and probably no different. I might be crazy and just as destructive. But for some reason when I'm on my own I feel sane and grounded. I am being a good father, a good employee, and I'm doing what is in front of me. I don't feel crazy. But who does? So just in case, it's nice to know I won't hurt anyone else.
Maybe I'll feel differently in 5-10 years. I could write all the rebuttals, there's probably women that feel the same way, you just have to know what you're looking for and get out there, etc. Well, I know what I'm looking for right now. What I've got. I'm doing ok. I'll raise my kids and see where I'm at when my youngest graduates.
Thanks for listening gang. Sorry I haven't been more active on your threads. I feel close to y'all and distant due to some differences we have as well. No one needs to hear how I don't think serial relationships or FWBs or casual sex are terrible or that they should quit dating forever for the reasons above. So I just keep to myself. But I love all of you guys and hope you each prove me wrong. For what it's worth you are some of the lease crazy people I know
I think people of all socioeconomic backgrounds cheat, lie, betray, get addicted to drugs and alcohol.
I dont agree that hardship keeps them in check. Lets not romantacize the working class. That argument in itself sounds a bit classist.
I also dont blame society. I think ending marriage or committing acts that end marriages (cheating) is an individual decision. Its a choice each individual makes. And to blame it on society, absolves them of responsibility.
I grew up in the same society. Watched the same crappy reality tv shows. Have aquaintances that have made awful choices regarding betrayal of spouse/dissolving of a marriage.
I was very unhappy in my marriage. Looking back, i had more of a reason to cheat or leave then my aquaintances ever did...my son and i were ignored, my ex could physically not perform. He couldnt give me a 2nd child. He couldn't provide. He did not give me companionship. He could not give me financial stability (despite higher education and a 6 figure income?) He was living a secret double life for years.
I was loyal, because thats who i am at the core. Im not religious, wasnt raised with any moral upbringing. Its who i am. Who my parents are.
I dont even know if its necessarily a good thing.
Perhaps people that are less loyal, more self serving do better in life. Get higher up on that food chain. Procreate more. Evolved to be that way by some gene that sets them up to move up in this world. To have easier lives cause they have no sense of responsibility for others.
Now does society nurture this?
Yes. These forums were all about absolving individual responsibility of our waywards. So maybe you have a point. But i dont think society makes us like that.
Do you think society should play more of a role incorporating punishment to those that dont stand by marriage?
Would that work? Or would it just get swept up under the rug?
Do you support presidents like clinton and Trump who blatantly dismiss marriage? I believe jordan Peterson said he suppprted trump? Is that hypocritical and where is your stance on the hypocritical? Do you sweep it under the rug because you suppport their bigger ideologies?
On a side note...God. I wish my level of committment did not exist!!! Had i been capable of leaving earlier, Had i been more self serving i would have been younger and had more options post a divorce.
But my point is that, i believe committment is something ingrained in the individual. Marriage works only when you get 2 people that are responsible/honest types together. Thats why 50 percent of marriages fail..cause there are a lot of individuals out there that are just dishonest or are self serving.
Changing the topic
Regarding you post divorce...I dont think any one is saying its right or wrong to be a lone ranger. I understand where its easier to go it alone. Relationships bring out emotions which are not stable nor are they predictable. They bring out vulnerablity. They are risky investments of time, and money, and emotions of nott just you but your kids as well. So if that doesnt benefit you in any way, why pursue one?
Also, an individual matter. Some people benefit..they like companionship (or whatever else a relationsjip brings to them . For others, the benefits of said companionship/monogamy does not not outweigh the risks.
Personally, i think my strategy was to find someone that was less risk. But that was also my strategy with ex. So i dont not see your point. Maybe i have more to gain from the risk then you? I dont know. Just rambling now:)
I think people of all socioeconomic backgrounds cheat, lie, betray, get addicted to drugs and alcohol.
I dont agree that hardship keeps them in check. Lets not romantacize the working class. That argument in itself sounds a bit classist.
For sure all types of people can have these types of problems. My main point was that while anyone can blow up a family, if Donald Trump goes off the rails he could blow up the planet. In some ways more resources can mean more destruction. I'm not dying on the hill that people today are able to cause more destruction with their dysfunction than in the past, it was just an idea I was toying with.
I also dont blame society. I think ending marriage or committing acts that end marriages (cheating) is an individual decision. Its a choice each individual makes. And to blame it on society, absolves them of responsibility.
People are responsible for their decisions, but society defines the rules to the game.
For example, in society A 95% of adults are married and remain married. Extramarital sex is taboo. Affairs and divorce are condemned. Everyone is generally raised with this outlook. Society B, though, 50% of the adult population doesn't marry, 50% of those that do split up, singles continuously engage in extramarital sex, and affairs and divorce are commonplace. Each individual determines their own set of rules to play by and they can find plenty of support for whatever they feel like doing, be it divorce, affairs, etc. Now...in which society are you going to see more of these types of behavior?
You're right. Each individual makes their choice. But to me there is no question that there are going to be a lot of people that might have avoided these roads had they not been so readily available and so widely accepted and encouraged.
I'm not sure I "blame" society. I think I let go of any expectation of how I think the world ought to be to some degree. It was like hitting my head into a brick wall. The world isn't changing because I don't like it. So I just kind of shrugged and am mostly able to accept it for what it is. Then I just have to decide what choices I want to make within this weird landscape. I may not personally believe in these things, but it's not my world. In some ways there's nothing to blame society for, because by definition if the majority is ok with everything then nothing wrong really occurred. If there are no rules, can you break them?
Maybe that's not quite it, but it's late and that's the best I can explain it. People are flawed humans living in a weird world. I don't have to like it, but apparently this is how it's going to be. I'll just try to pass my beliefs on to my kids, but I'll also have to warn them that most people aren't playing by the same set of rules.
Do you support presidents like clinton and Trump who blatantly dismiss marriage? I believe jordan Peterson said he suppprted trump? Is that hypocritical and where is your stance on the hypocritical? Do you sweep it under the rug because you suppport their bigger ideologies?
I am not a Trump fan. I'm not sure if poor morals would eliminate a political candidate from contention in my mind or if I could just elect who I thought would do the best job. I'm not marrying the person, I just want them to do their job. When I was a manager I had employees and bosses that did things I didn't approve of, I left it at the office. I wouldn't be close with them, but it's pretty hard to wall off the majority of the population for acting in ways I disagree with. But there is a line I suppose that goes too far, and yeah, for me Trump has crossed it. Plus I haven't voted republican before.
As for Jordan Peterson, he's not a big Trump fan either. I think he flippantly said he would have walked into the voting booth with the intention of voting for Clinton, then saying the heck with it and voting for Trump. He believed in Hillary because she had the experience, but he was more opposed to her identity politics than he was to Trumps idiocy. Something like that. But again, I don't have to agree with him on every topic to find value in some of what he says.
On that note I wanted to share this with you guys. The first guy I found in a long time that views this similarly to me. OK, I can't do links but these are easily searchable on YouTube. Agree or not, I think they are interesting and not too long:
Jordan Peterson: The Real Reason To Get Divorced and Married
Jordan Peterson: Divorce May Ruin You
What I find amazing is that after he lays out a really good reason to stay married, the first question he gets (beginning of the 2nd video) is from someone in the audience argues that there are times when leaving a marriage is the only option. I laughed when I heard this. Typical. You can lay it on the table like "Here is why divorce doesn't work", and people immediately try to find the exception that they can use to justify their lack of commitment. I just shrug and say, yeah, you beat to that drum along with the rest of the world, see how it works for you.
I get it, there's a trade off between freedom and commitment. We live in a world where personal freedom is considered paramount. JP is a believer in voluntary enslavement in the form of commitment and responsibility.
He makes a case that in life there is suffering, and there are two strategies to try to handle that:
1. Try to avoid any commitments that could infringe on your freedom, then use your freedom to pursue pleasure and try to avoid discomfort. The problem is that you can't hide from suffering in life, it gets us all, and without anything meaningful to justify suffering the pain is even worse. And chasing pleasure is not the road to fulfillment.
2. Taking on responsibilities. This provides purpose and meaning. You will still suffer, but you'll have a reason to endure the suffering, your purpose. JP says "You want to have a meaningful life? Everything you do matters." He goes on to point out that is difficult, but the alternative is to forego the whole meaning thing.
My young pool playing friend believes in option 1. He avoids any commitments and responsibilities, and he's trying to amass enough wealth to have no financial obligations driving his behavior either. His dream is to be free to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, with nothing limiting his choices. Without giving it much thought I think many people fall into assuming this is the optimal way to approach life. I think it's foolish and empty. And there is no way to outrun the suffering in life, so in the end it will get him just the same and he'll have nothing to hold on to. Potentially. It's not all or nothing and I wish him the best.
My best friend agrees. And it's a good thing to remember. There are days when we wish we were rich so we didn't have to deal with our jobs and problems, but then we remind ourselves and each other that we've taken on responsibilities that make us full. That the greener grass of a desert island somewhere isn't the answer. That we are blessed to have the weight we carry, because it's an honor to serve and give purpose to our suffering in this way.
I don't agree with JP on everything, but these are some of the things that resonated with me.
Thanks for posting Juju!
Oh, I like his reply too..."I can't promise you'll always solve your problems...but there's no guarantee sequential relationships will be differnt"
Then he goes on with listing all the other damage, but this was something people overlook. People tend to assume that they can get what they desire if they look hard enough because hey, they're special and they deserve it. I think the perfect is the enemy of the good.
I don't agree with JP on everything, but these are some of the things that resonated with me.
Zues126,
My first exposure to JP was his lectures that were posted to YouTube. Watching those videos, it became very clear the JP put a lot of time and effort into thinking about the human condition and his clinical practice gave him plenty of exposure to the vagaries of human existence.
Like you, I don't agree with JP on everything, but I know his intentions are good and I know he's a deep thinker. I don't consider myself to be a JP follower or disciple, and I certainly don't want to hump his leg. But, I've often noticed that if I mention JP, I'm almost immediately tagged as one of those "JP guys." For some reason, whatever it is at the core JP's message, its seems to be very polarizing. I suspect, and it's just a guess, that for many people, the idea of personal responsibility isn't the message they want to hear.
I also like Sam Harris, April Wilkerson, Richard Dawkins, Sean Carroll and Joe Rogan (I'd hump his leg). But, none of them seem to garner the automatic "you're one of those" reflex that occurs when you mention JP.
Hi Zues!
Can I ask an honest question?
I see you doing so well, so I think this is a good time to ask it.
Which life do you think would be healthier? (I would say happier and healthier, but I know how you feel about happiness in regards to marriage)
this life you live now, as a single dad raising your kids, enjoying your hobbies and working, or....
Being in the marriage you were in at and before bomb drop. Saying your wife stayed just to honor her vows, but she had no intentions of changing.
Aside from all the morals.....
Which life would you rather live? Which do you think would have been healthier for you or healthier for or for the kids?
That's a great questions G and gets to the heart of the matter.
I think it's healthier to stay married and grind it out, even if much of the marriage is miserable and unfulfilling.
I could build a good case for why it's better that the marriage ended. For sure I am in a better spot now than when I was married. Less conflict. Less resentment. Less dysfunction. When contrasting that to an unhappy marriage with hostility I can see why it's easy for so many people to buy the "It's better to model being happy" narrative.
First of all, this makes a HUGE assumption: That NEITHER of us would have grown or changed, EVER. I don't believe this for a moment. Even if she never changed, if I could be the man I am now in my marriage I could've done enough to eliminate most of the dysfunction on my own. Could I have inspired her to take that journey along with me? Maybe, maybe not. And realistically the answer is probably to some degree. Not to the degree I desire, but more than not at all. But if I budged a lot and she budged even a tiny bit I think it could've turned into a strong, lifelong partnership.
To be fair, the divorce was a catalyst for much of my growth. But I can't credit that to the divorce. XW kind of thinks this way in justifying the D, she told me once "If this is what it took for you to be a better father then it's worth it". I don't buy that at all. That's like if she shot me and while in the hospital I realized how fleeting life was and became a better person. Does she get credit for my growth because she shot me??? NO. Would I have grown on my own in the marriage? Absolutely. It would've looked different, but I wouldn't have been stagnant forever, that's not who I am.
OK, but now assuming that neither of us ever grew or changed, and the marriage would have been miserable for the rest of our days. I still believe it would've been worth keeping together. On the surface this makes no sense. We weren't on speaking terms during some periods, didn't touch each other for months at a time, and there was a lot of resentment. But even in the midst of this, we were in love. I would pay the bills, pick her up her favorite dinner, get her something on her birthday. She would grocery shop and make my favorite meal for me, and stock the granola bars I liked that I started each day with. Little things in the middle of the storm that showed a love that was rooted deeply enough to survive the storm.
More importantly it was my purpose. Like I said in my last post, responsibility is sacrifice which gives meaning to our lives. I had a purpose to endure the suffering of life: To be a husband. Even if she decided to be a horrible W her entire life, I had someone I could serve that gave meaning to my life. Her decision not to meet my needs wouldn't interfere with me meeting my deepest needs in loving and serving her all my life.
I think that's the crux. People think marriage is about getting, not giving. And in today's world people think they should look to get more, instead of realizing that true fulfillment comes from giving more. People dating are all about trying to find someone that meets all of these expectations. In reality there is no one that could do enough for you to make you feel fulfilled, while most people that have the character to stick around could allow you to achieve your own fulfillment by giving your life to them.
Yes, I am doing better than I ever have in my life. But that has come from me finding my own happiness. There is a hole in my heart where I miss having someone to love, someone that drives me to power through the obstacles of life, someone to know that I am here and witness my life. Right now I have my children in my life, and my mother and father. But they have their own lives to live. I love playing pool and am having a blast in my life. But there is something very profound missing from all of it.
Look at it this way. Suppose you had a child that was mentally challenged, and possibly physically as well. And that child passed away. Would your life be easier? For sure. Would you be able to pour more resources into your hobbies? Go out for wine with friends when you wanted? Absolutely. But no one (or most people that aren't horrible) would choose for their child to die. They'd happily sacrifice all of those things and endure a difficult road if it meant they could care for their child and celebrate the time together, even if it was paved with hardship.
I know there's an argument about what we model for our kids. As far as I'm concerned I'd like to model these values and outlooks to my children as well.
This idea that it's best not to be 'taken advantage of' by giving more than you get, being self sufficient so you can be nobody's fool and not having to put up with disrespect from a partner that doesn't treat you right, and the focus on the superficial pleasures you can achieve when you unchain yourself from the oppression of a vow...this is the Devil's best lie in my estimation. It's very convincing. It reminds me of this quote:
She remembered the story from her childhood, about Adam and Eve in the garden, and the talking snake. Even as a little girl she had said - to the consternation of her family - What kind of idiot was Eve, to believe a snake? But now she understood, for she had heard the voice of the snake and had watched as a wise and powerful man had fallen under its spell.
Eat the fruit and you can have the desires of your heart. It's not evil, it's noble and good. You'll be praised for it.
And it's delicious.
I don't really have time for an update so maybe for once I'll keep it short. Today is not just father's day, it's my four year antiversary! I can't believe how different things are in my world.
It's been a fun weekend. Yesterday I played pool for 12 hours on tough equipment, first practicing, then sparring with a good local player. I was so tired last night, and pool shots kept replying in my mind. Awesome day.
Today I will be picking my kids up to watch Incredibles 2. I am so lucky to be their dad. They are awesome and interesting people, it's a privilege to be the one that gets to chaperone their childhood. After that I'm meeting my best friend for a couple hours of pool, then we're going to an upscale steakhouse for dinner, and finally going to the Jordan Peterson event where I booked us VIP and meet and greet tickets. Why not!
Thank you guys for helping me through the last four years.
Happy fathers day. Your kids are lucky too. Parenthood as a gift and privilege!
Thank you J!
So the Jordan Peterson event was pretty cool. There were a lot of good moments, but to me the most profound had to do with cynicism. Keep in mind that he is a long time clinical psychologist with books on this subject, so it's a well thought out viewpoint.
Basically he said that there were three states. We start out naive, totally oblivious to the malevolence in the world. We tend to think things are all good. Then we are betrayed and hurt, sometimes terribly. At that point we fall into cynicism. We start to think that things are all bad. Eventually we can find a balance in which we understand that while it's true that things are good, that's only part of it, and it's only part of it that things are bad. They are both.
He got chuckles when he talked about people moving from naivety to cynicism say when we feel everything is bad "Not entirely, but you're one step closer to the truth!"
It also doesn't mean we only fall into one category. We might be naive about some things, cynical about other areas, and very mature in others.
This really was profound to me. Juju, you have mentioned how high my walls seem to be. And this is absolutely correct. I've had a couple of moments of clarity in the last 12-18 months in which I have seen that. It's more than an impenetrable forcefield, it's almost like a magnetic repulsion in which pushes back against the outside world as it approaches.
Now, I'm not saying that's all bad. I am nice and cozy and doing better than ever. And I think there are some very rational reasons to keep these walls right where they are.
But I'll absolutely admit that they might not be there rationally and strategically, but defensively and reflexively out of cynicism and fear of being hurt.
If I was through my cynicism to the maturity phase would I take down my walls? I don't know. Probably some of them some of the time. But I can't say from where I sit. But it's nice to get a shot of hope that as I work through my sitch, someday it may feel differently. And it would be nice to be in control of my defenses instead of the other way around.
My IC said recovery after a D is a long process. He used 5 years as a benchmark. I'm 4 years out. There's so much more to it than not wanting to R, or being ok without your WAS. I'm starting to see that. It really changes the way you view the entire world and how your brain and body act independently of your consciousness to protect you. I'm curious where I'll be in another four years.
Happy belated father's day Zues! There really is no greater gift in this world than getting to be a parent, in my personal opinion.
I did read your very thoughtful reply to me, and to be honest, I just didn't know how to answer back. I know why yo feel the way you do.
I guess I do think you were meant to be a husband, as you said. I think I was meant to be a wife. I wish you would give a second chance at the husband thing, but I know why you won't.
Yes, recovery from D is a long process. And honestly, I don't think I felt recovered until the 5 year mark, if I am being totally honest. My issues now are residual issues of divorce that don't go away, but I am pretty far on my recovery, definitely with some scars, no doubt about that.
I am glad life is treating you good, you are enjoying your kids and some fun activities that spark passion in you.
Zeus, how are you my friend? Time for an update.
Well, I owe you all an update. Busy week with the kids going back to school but I was getting ready to post. Then I got broadsided yesterday.
I've mentioned the young man I travel to pool tournaments with. He is the best in my state (I'm number two and am close, but he's really strong). Last season we probably traveled to 6-8 tournaments together with exceptional results. Not only was it tremendous fun, I emerged as a much stronger player. I'm very close to breaking through to the highest levels and he has been a big part of it. We practice together, spar together, talk pool, and compete in tournaments. All while making good money and having a blast.
He came over last night so we could firm up our tournament schedule and he said I should know something. He is currently in a relationship with a married woman. The woman he's talking about is married to another very prominent pool player in our community, and the wife is a pool player herself that is well known in these parts. Almost like one big pool circle around here. He says they've been seeing each other since April and things are getting serious, and that she's divorcing her husband. FYI, he is 26, she is probably 45 or older and has a teenage daughter that is knocking on the door of 18 if she's not already there. He felt he should tell me this because there may be some 'drama' as we go to pool tournaments, particularly when all parties involved are at the same place and most people will be connected to one party or the other.
I'm sick to my stomach and dumbfounded. What a horrible thing to be involved with. I hold the married woman slightly more accountable because she's the one that took vows, but not by much. It's almost like she killed 5 people, he killed 2. Either way for him to have anything to do with the destruction of a family is disgusting to me.
I think that's about the worst thing most people can do in their life. Sure, there's murder and child molestation, but only 1 in 10,000 people is a killer, and 1 in 2,000 is a child molester. When it comes to people having affairs and initiating divorces we're up to probably 60%+ of the general population. I think it's the worst thing done by humans on that type of majority scale. Horrible, horrible, horrible. I get he's 26 and doesn't understand the depths of the destruction, while growing up in a culture that says anything goes, but I am absolutely disgusted by this.
So now I have a fork in the road. I can continue to go to tournaments with him or not. It's almost like we're in a band together and have a bunch of gigs lined up. If I stop going to tournaments with him I no longer have a band, and the plans I've made for myself with pool all take a devastating blow. I was so pumped, I could almost taste the success because I saw the trajectory I was on, and this would derail almost everything.
But I can't see continuing to partner with him. Travelling to pool tournaments isn't just business, the friendship has to exist. There are 8 hour car rides both ways, days and even weeks sharing a hotel room, hours between matches day after day. If there isn't a good friendship that just isn't viable. I don't see any way to keep him at 'arm's length' while taking on this type of schedule. And I can't see being his partner publicly when everyone knows what's going on and sees me continue to ride shotgun with him.
Most of all it comes down to my personal vote. I am heartbroken this type of thing happens, and have feel outraged that our society is so complacent. I can't change my friend, and I can't change the world, but I get to cast my vote. I can't say I disapprove of this behavior if my behavior doesn't change in any way from how I'd act if I endorsed this behavior. The only thing that makes sense to me is telling him I enjoyed our friendship and partnership and wish him the best, but that I need to take some time out. That I can't be part of this both socially but primarily ethically. That he's free to call me if he needs help at some point, and if the situation changes we could revisit it, but that at this time I need to take a break.
Man, everything about this stinks. I am so discouraged. It's a huge loss for me for many reasons and seems so unnecessary. My heart really goes out to the LBH on the other end of this. He's not my favorite person and no friend of mine (although I've known him 20 years) but it's a shame this happens to anyone. Ever. And I am just feeling down about humanity right now. I swear I only have 1 good friend and maybe a couple more that I'm connected with in any meaningful way. To see someone I liked do something like this and having to say goodbye to that is brutal. It just seems like no matter how high my walls are and how many people I wall off, it's not even safe to let the few people I choose to allow in close to me. I don't hate everyone, but I'm at the point where I don't want to talk to anyone again. I just feel like keeping to myself altogether because the rest of this screwed up world beats to a drum that not only can't I relate to, I don't even understand.
Arg. Didn't mean to be overly dramatic. Just venting a bit. Sick. I know what I need to do. It's super hard, I hate confrontation and loss, but I've gotten through worse. Haven't we all...
Comments welcome. Hopefully I can shake this off and post a real update soon. Thanks guys.
Done. I called him and explained I needed to take some time off and why.
Hi Zues, you stood by your values and thats the only way to live your life. We can't control others or expect them to live by our ( right or wrong ) standards but we can keep them for ourselves. IMHO you can sleep easy with a clear mind. Tough situation for you but you handled it well.
Take care, Rd
Hi zues
I get what your feeling.
I agree that cheating and walking away from your family is one of the cruelest things someone can do. Like there is a special place in dantes inferno for that type of betrayal. And the reason its such a sin is because they are committing it against the people they vowed to protect. Their own flesh and blood is affected and damaged from it. You have heard the term' "you cant betray an enemy" ? That is why it is just so painful.
When i was in the most painful part of my divorce, my favorite patient (who was going through some tough health issues) confessed to me that she was having an affair. This person was an incredible person. Kind, had a lot of depth, and soul. The type of person that put everyone else first. If she wasnt my patient we would have been really good friends.
It was hard for me to rationalize that such a good person could do this. It was hard because i needed to villify my own ex for doing the same thing to me. It was easier for me to let go of my ex by writing him off as a selfiah narcissit. But i swear to you' this woman was not in any way a selfish narcissit. Yet she was doing this. She was depressed and upset and stressed. She was not the charming type that knew how to appeal to the public or work on keeping up image and appeatances. . To be honest. I think she was insecure because of her health issue and history of weight problems.
Now, our relationship dynamic was different from you and your friends. So i am not sure how i would respond in a similar situatuon.
I will say that i think your reaction was very powerful. And i hope it has an impact. I hope it makes your friend think and reflect. You are right. Many people just do not get the severity of cheating and breaking up a family and if more people responded the way you did, i wonder if it would result in more people understanding thebtrue consequences of their actuons.
Thank you guys.
The funny thing is when he explained his perspective to me. It was all script. Her husband was a bad guy, she had already made the decision to end the marriage, they knew what they wanted and weren't going to wait for a document from the courts to make the divorce official. This almost sounds like a couple moving in together before marriage, after all, it's just a piece of paper, right?
The problem with that is that my friend doesn't understand the role he plays in taking her words (that she's done with the marriage) at face value, when in reality she's in pain and confused. If the entire world unanimously told her "You shouldn't do this, stay with your man, make it work, I don't want anything to do with you if you walk away from your vows" then maybe she'd rethink her decision. But when there are a line of men saying "Hey honey, was he a bad guy, well, c'mon over here, the grass is greener, I can show you..." then it just makes it easier for her to follow this path. It's almost like giving drugs to people in rehab. It's ultimately their choice to use, but they're in a vulnerable spot and making it available to them is going to sabotage progress that they might be able to make if they had a clean environment for a few weeks or months.
So again, I can't help the fact that most people will shrug their shoulders and not object. After all, I am more passionate about this topic than most and am closer to him than most and I could barely muster the gumption to do this. But at least for my own sake I did. I felt like I was a third party voter; it felt like throwing away my vote, but it was my only choice.
I have some other thoughts on this but I'm so wiped out and down right now I just have to call it a day. Thanks for being there for me guys.
Zues,
You did what was right for you and that is a wonderful thing. You are correct that we can’t change others, only how we respond. Good for you!
And i think you are also making a statement that we all play a role. Like in bullying. It happens because there are many kids that stand back and just dont say anything. I think that the new anti bullying training tries to involve every one.
And yeah. The OM/OW is a big part of this and does have a responsibility. Sure it ultimately falls on the waywards choices. I have heard if it wasnt this person. It would just be someone else. But i think its a very clear' your in the wrong to go out with someone that is married and has a kid. Although a person with no relationship experience in their late teens early 20s really does not understand the gravity of this unless they witnessed it happening in their own family. When ineas in my late teens mone of my close friends was running around with a married man. She would tell me how evil his ex was. I stayed friends with her but told her shebwas crqzy to date this guy. She ended up stalking him and scaring him. And our friendship ended cause i realized she was a pretty bad person for other reasons too.
Your friend is 26. Does he have relationship experience? She is much older and knows how to manipulate a situation i am sure.
And one more thought (because i get very upset about this stuff as well) it seems like the only people that really empathize with the person getting betrayed is people that have been betrayed themselves. That type of empathy or foresight is like some sort of secret language you just cant fully comprehend unless you have been on the receiving end.
I recently wrote about this mom telling me about how her ex DIL is still bitter about her son ending their marriage when their special needs child was young. (Hes now 19) and how ex dil was remarried and she could not understand why she was still bitter. Her son paid a lot in child support and religiously saw his son twice a week but daughter lin law was way to over protective to allow sleepovers. Her narrative and perceptive upset me so much.
I saw through that BS right away' but i know the world does not. I know they listen to that sweet old lady"s story and have no comprehension of if the pain her DIL went through raising a child with special needs on her own. (Of course the reason for the special needs child was that the mother herself was slow and they were not a good match from the very beginning) ugh!!
Being betrayed is like opening pandoras box. You have a newfound wisdom that comes at a painful cost.
Hi Zues!
I want to speak to this.
It was hard for me to rationalize that such a good person could do this. It was hard because i needed to villify my own ex for doing the same thing to me. It was easier for me to let go of my ex by writing him off as a selfiah narcissit. But i swear to you' this woman was not in any way a selfish narcissit. Yet she was doing this. She was depressed and upset and stressed. She was not the charming type that knew how to appeal to the public or work on keeping up image and appeatances. . To be honest. I think she was insecure because of her health issue and history of weight problems.
I don't know if I ever told the story to you, but my ex husband was my friend's boyfriend. I was the OW. I was 18. People who know me, know that it is not who I am. I, of course, felt guilt beyond guilt, even to this day. Me and that friend are actually close friends to this day, 20 plus year friendship. I was in the worst place in my life at the time. I actually wished I was dead. My mother went off the rails, back on drugs, my dad, my rock, was living with his AP, I had no home of my own, and everyone abandoned me. When he paid attention to me, I latched on like a literal life preserver. Just about the most unhealthy dynamic in the world, and heck, look where it got me. To this day, I deal with it in therapy. My friend forgave me, because she knows it's not who I am. She knew my life at the time.. I do believe good people make bad mistakes.
All that being said, I understand where you are coming from and your stance. My best friend, my biggest support in my life, one of the people I love the most wasn't faithful. My cousin is also not faithful. The internal battle is real. When I realized my dad was cheating on my mom with his now wife of 16 years, I lived in denial of it. I love my dad and he was always a great dad. Separating the relationships from the cheating is really really hard. In the end, you need to do what is right for you. What you are comfortable with. I am sorry this is happening,, because I know pool is your happy place, is a loss of a partner in something you do that makes you feel good.
Put Zues first
I was talking to my kids about the 'good people' idea the other day. Right now they are at an age where everyone is a 'good person'. As they grow up they'll need to learn how to pick friendships and relationships. They'll find that not everyone is a good person, but how will they tell? So I really tried to explain to them that you can't tell a good person by their manners, or how friendly they are, or how funny they are, or if they care charming and make you feel special to be around them. Rather as they make decisions in their life those decisions reflect their values, and over time you gain some perspective and can really get to understand what you're dealing with. Then you can make decisions about what role, if any, they should have in your life.
I wish more people measured character this way and were disciplined about what type of behavior we accepted near us. I believe it would be better for each of us individually, and it would reinstate some social pressure towards better behavior and be better for everyone as well. Instead it's "Do what works for you", and "Who are we to judge", and "yadda yadda [INSERT NEWAGE WISE SOUNDING NARRATIVE].
Personally I don't believe the 'good guy/bad guy' stuff. I tend to think more along the lines of the Christian belief: We are all flawed sinners. It is our job to do the best we can to follow a better path. This makes sense to me. I have long been put off by the attitude that all of us on these forums are good guys and all of our ex's are narcissistic adolescents. I think that narrative says more about us than them.
That's why I'm not surprised when a good person has an affair. I just shrug and realize they aren't that good of a person. Why would I be surprised? Because they were kind? Mild mannered? Charming? They loved their children? They knitted something as a gift? Look, we are all nice people, we all have those we love, we all do generous things at times. But to me the more important things are what picture comes into focus when I zoom way out and look at what principles they've used to guide their life.
Now G, this doesn't mean I think you're a bad person because of a choice you regret 20 years ago. Remember what I said about credit reports? As far as I'm concerned, you had a really bad mark on your credit report. That doesn't mean you have bad credit for life. It means you had to reestablish. And you have. You've acknowledged it was a bad choice, and have since made many positive choices in your life that have earned you credit as a higher quality of sinner than others. As for my friend, he is in a good spot in his life and is deliberately choosing to ignore society's taboo because he doesn't see the issue and he wants what he wants. Even if the affair ended I'm not sure I could be friends with him. I'd really need to see him reestablish the way you did.
Bottom line, we become like the friends we choose. I am very protective of myself in that way. The same way when I was married I wouldn't spend 1:1 time with other women, I don't want to even put myself in a spot where I'm influenced by people I don't aspire to be like. This serves a dual purpose as it also casts my vote on what type of society I want to live in. Bad choices are bad choices, but if we don't call them out and respond accordingly then we can't sit on the side lines and call them bad choices, because our actions say we're fine with it.