Despite earnest DB efforts since July, D looks inevitable. I need to get my house on the market in February. We need some kind of legal agreement in place first. Since H is not moving the D along, I'm going to have to. This is his standard M.O. Do nothing so long that I have no choice but to take care of things.
Next week his L will get my settlement proposal. Any tips on how to navigate this with grace and mercy?
Hi Becky, welcome to the club! No one wants to join, but we have great parties!
I'm sorry this has all been so quick for you. The divorce part, however, needs to be thought of as a business deal - not a place to settle the emotional baggage.
His eagerness to get the divorce done may work in your favor if you can get him to agree to a favorable settlement; the longer things go on, the less generous they get.
As for selling the house - you are smart to wait until you have an agreement in place before doing that. The division of the proceeds from the house need to be calculated into other division of assets. For instance, one of you might want to trade house equity for an interest in the other's pension, etc.
Make sure you get good legal advice about the financial matters, and remember - your divorce attorney is not a financial expert, so while they may be able to tell you about fair division of assets, they may not be able to discuss tax ramifications of different decisions.
Check out wife dot org which has excellent financial information for women getting a divorce. Also think about the following:
- don't be pushed into selling right away if it's not what you want to do. If this is your dream house and you fear you'll never be able to afford your own home again, it may pay to find a way to keep it. On the other hand, don't make yourself house poor, especially if you're not sure you'll stay in town or you don't want the upkeep.
- don't trade retirement assets for the house unless you are entirely secure on your own benefits.
- look at the tax ramifications of everything.
- I wish, in retrospect, that I had taken a lump sum instead of alimony in my divorce. It wasn't really possible, because our biggest asset was the house equity and ex wanted his share so he could purchase his dream beach cottage. But the bitterness that has been engendered by him having to write that alimony check every month has been extremely corrosive to any friendship we might have been able to develop post-divorce, and harmful to my adult children as well.
What is your financial situation like? Are your incomes comparable, or is there a big discrepancy? What assets are there to be divided?
And also - what would your dream future look like? Are there any ambitions you have put on hold during your marriage? Any crazy dreams you might want to pursue? (after my ex left, I took up playing the drums at the age of 53 and now I play in a punk rock cover band in my spare time:) )
Things have moved pretty fast in your sitch it sounds like, and there's no telling where things will go in the future, but take care of yourself financially through this process.
(And no, he won't do any of the work, most of them don't because they want the "zipless divorce", just like the zipless f___ in Erica Jong's Fear of Flying.)
KML, thanks for your reply.
I make more money than my H and have my own retirement. Initially the thought is we would just split the house but now I think he has a different idea. He said we would not agree but I don't know what he wants. We used money from his job buy-out as a down payment so he thinks he's owed more. Legally though it was a marital asset. Not to mention the fact that my salary has kept us in this house. He's had a lot of health issues and has been off work a lot the last 4 years.
We've already split the household goods and the cash we had. Theoretically it should be easy but I think H is panicking and he has OW influencing him.
My retirement accounts are more than his but it would cost more than it's worth to figure out the difference. However he's not being very logical lately. I have no idea what he is going to counter with.
I do want to sell the house. It was our dream but it's not mine. It's too big and too far out of town.
My dream is to have a family again with an emotionally stable husband who wants to travel and garden and go camping with me.
In the mean time I'm carrying on with life. I recently started Pilates classes and I'm learning to play piano. Definitely not sitting around although the last month or so I'm feeling more depressed. I think it's the impending finality and the holidays.
All in all I haven't completely stopping DBing so I'm trying to approach this with grace and mercy. Even though I'd like to tell him exactly how I feel!
If you make more than H, he might ask for alimony (although, if he's living with OW,he may not be able to get it. I lose my alimony if I cohabit with my boyfriend; the archaic legal presumption being that if I live with him, it's now HIS responsibility to support me).
As for the retirement funds, it didn't cost that much when I did the QDRO, less than $2000, so don't assume that he won't try to even those up.
Make sure you get good legal advice, and don't negotiate anything with H without running it past your lawyer first.
I'm not going to negotiate with him. I'm way too emotional. It will go through L.
I'm so frustrated with my attorney. I like him and feel like he knows what he's doing but he's an independent guy with no support and he's taking forever to finish my settlement agreement.
I really need to get my house on the market mid February but I need an agreement in place first. I don't think negotiation is going to be easy so we really need to get going now. Ugh.
How do you all survive all the things that need to be done jointly - like taxes and closing bank accounts. I don't even want to talk to H - it's too painful. I dread everything we still have to deal with together.
I can I be ok with pushing my divorce through? It goes against everything I believe and want. But H has shown very few hopeful signs and I feel his heart is growing harder. My DB coach thinks there may be still some DB opportunities so I'll keep my eyes open.
Bottom line is emotionally and financially I need to get my house sold so I have no choice but to put forth a settlement.
I hate this.
Above should have said.. How can I?
Remember that the divorce is about business and protecting yourself financially. Make the decisions that are best for you financially. There is nothing about the paperwork of the divorce that will prevent him from coming back if he wants to come back.
I've seen WASs here turn around at the last minute before a divorce was finalized, or try to come back years later after divorce and remarriage to the OP! Anything is possible. But it's usually a mistake to put off the divorce if it means you will suffer financially in some way. I haven't seen anybody win their spouse back just because they rolled over and gave everything away in the divorce.
Also, the longer you wait, the less generous the WAS becomes. It's often better to strike while they still feel some modicum of guilt.
Thanks KLM. Unfortunately I think I missed the guilt window. T D does need to move forward. Now just wait for attorney to make my edits to the proposal.
Well my L still has not gotten around to making the edits to my settlement proposal. I talked to him this morning. He's supposed to send it to me today. However, I'm having a hard time dealing with the holidays and have decided to delay sending it until after Christmas.
There is a court-scheduled attorney conference on Jan. 11. It will be sent in time for H and his L to see it and respond on that date. In the mean time H hasn't asked about it again and has not talked to his L at all. It's very easy to get divorced in my state. H could have had it done and over with by now. So confusing.
I also discovered that OW apparently is not living in our state with H. Saw a picture of her and her H on his FB at a Christmas party. I should have know she wasn't around b/c H has been friendly and helpful.
Also went to my first Divorce Care group tonight. I think it's going to be good.
Nothing like waiting until the last minute. We have an attorney conference in 2weeks and h has done nothing. Yesterday my L sent a proposal to his L, and of course his L is out til next week.
In the meantime I'm out of town and basement is flooding. I decided not to come home since house still belongs to both of us. I arranged for a clean up crew and trying to handle this calmly. H is trying to blame the young house sitter for not calling sooner. Things were already wet when she discovered the water! Geez, he always has to blame.
Becky,
I'm sorry you are having to deal w/divorce issues as well as flooding. Both are a PIA to deal with.
I'm not surprised your h hasn't done anything. Some of them won't do the work and expect others to do it or they realize it's too much work and hope it can slide.
The blame game is very famous w/them. I'm just glad your house sitter discovered the issue before it got even worse. Hopefully not a lot of your belongings are damaged.
Breathe! You've got this and the clean up crew will take care of the flooding for you.
So ready to get this divorce over with. H is so passive-aggressive and sef-centered. This morning at 9:15 I texted to remind him about taxes that need paid. He said Whatever. I replied with Wow, and let me know if I need to take care of it. He replied, Stop texting, we are still sleeping. We. So not necessary.
I know I have a lot of work to on myself too, but feel.
I'm so nervous. H will get my settlement proposal early next week. We talked about most of it but that was this summer. And I know he won't like my proposed split of the house proceeds.
Turns out this is probably a terrible time for this to happen. H is cranky and overwhelmed by having to move his stuff in the middle of a rain and minor basement flood.
I still can't believe I'm taking these steps. Things are moving so quickly. I have so much to do but no motivation. I will soon have to move and I don't know what do to. Buy, rent, where? Not a decision I ever planned to make on my own again.
Becky,
We're the same age... for good or bad.
You need to find your inner lioness and roar. Start protecting yourself and see yourself through your own lens and stop being afraid of the opinion of an a*hole. Don't ever feel bad for taking the protective measures you need to take to live the rest of your life with something that works for you.
Your H will not want you to get anything. Anything more than nothing is probably going to piss him off. Who cares? He's out of the marriage, he got what he wanted so why give him another moment's free rent in your head? Sure, I absolutely know you didn't want this. But it's your reality for 2016, and you have to deal with what's on your plate now.
It doesn't mean down the road you won't have a second chance. But stand firm and negotiate what is FAIR TO YOU. Who gives a rats a$$ if he's cranky or not getting his way. If he were a toddler, would you feel bad for him? My guess is not. So pull yourself together and make a plan. Don't apologize for that.
The taxes should be clearly spelled out in your settlement agreement. Remember this is the business aspect of your marriage. It's not a state on your feelings or what was. Just protect your future. You don't have decades to recoup income so go get what you and your L feel is fair.
Can you get a friend to help you execute a plan? Don't wait for the flood to bury you before you make a plan. I don't know where you live, but if you have the option to rent until you can get a plan that truly IS what you want, is that possible? Here in Denver, we have a horrible renting situation, so hopefully it's not the case where you are. Go get settled and start creating a blueprint for your life from this day forward. It's the new year, and an ideal time to start carving out some personal goals for yourself, with the assumption that the only person you need to please is yourself.
Make a commitment to YOU.
My toast to you for a fresh start.
Betsey
Thank you Betsey! That is exactly what I needed to hear. H has stopped communicating so I'm guessing he got my settlement proposal. I offered to discuss with him but he has not responded. Oh well.
On Monday there is a conference with the attorneys and the judge. He'll have to have some kind of response by then.
My proposal is fair and reflects mostly what he and I talked about this summer. I think he is feeling less guilty now so that is not good for me. I make significantly more money than H and he has been way over spending so I'm pretty sure he's feeling desperate.
When this all started my attorney got the case moved to a female judge who had a bad divorce and doesn't like adulterers.
Plus my H hired a L from another county, which was stupid. I don't want to go to court but if it ends up there I thing I'm in a good place.
I'm mad as heck that he started this whole thing and I'm the one having to finish it.
Renting here is not great either. I can't see myself living in an apartment and the rent for a decent house is as much as a mortgage. I do have the option to move in with my mom (ugh) until I find the right situation. I'll have to wait and see what happens with the sale of our house. I'm going to get approved for a loan and start looking just in case. My goal is to put the house on the market 2/15.
Personal goals including defining what I want my future to look like, working with my IC on some of my issues, losing 2 pounds and exercising regularly, learning to play piano and learning to shoot a gun.
Becky,
Since you have that L, let her do all the negotiating with your H's attorney. She's your agent. By virtue of the issues, every D winds up in court. I had a mediated D (no attorneys) and we still had a court date. It wasn't fun, but it was a necessary conclusion so that I could go forward.
You're going to have to train yourself to see your situation differently. It will take time, but like exercise, it gets easier to absorb. I know you're mad that you have to finish it. But look at it this way, you're doing what any healthy person does to protect their self interests. I think it would speak volumes if you were to tell yourself that you deserved this and to let him call all the shots.
Good luck with the living situation. I think our generation is so programmed to feel that renting is throwing away good money. I did a pro/con list several years ago and found out that repairs/insurance/upkeep negated much of the benefits of owning. The only way that wasn't true was if I was living mortgage free. There's something to be said about letting someone else take care of the handyman stuff. Plugged sink? Call management. Leaky faucet? Call management. I think it's a great way to negotiate life for a spell. BTW, I'm moving this week myself. Not very fun. But I'm embracing the necessary change in 2016. I want a much more carefree lifestyle - no more home maintenance, roof replacement, painting, landscaping issues or shoveling snow. I'm done with that part of my life!
Great goal list! One of mine this year is to take some wood working classes. I want to learn how to do the stuff I would have learned how to do if my mom let me take shop in high school like I wanted. LOL. I did learn how to sew in home ec, though, and I can't be mad at her for that. It's come in handy more than a few times.
Make 2016 the year of Becky. Any actions, thoughts, desires must be supportive of Becky's wish list. It helps make things a little more clear. When in doubt, ask yourself, "Will this bring me closer to my goal?" If not, you have your answer.
Good luck!
Betsey
Becky, for what it's worth... Whenever I had to deal with the legal stuff, I made sure I had some really amazing underwear on. REALLY amazing -- like the kind that I'd wear for a really hot date. I knew what Mr. Fantastic was missing out on and I felt empowered and ready to move forward.
Good luck. It's not fun and it's not fair but It can make your life a lot better.
Maybell I love that! Right now I'm finding it hard to shave my legs, let along worry about great underwear.
Betsey, in my state if both parties can come to an agreement a hearing is not necessary. If we can negotiate an agreement ahead of time I nave have to see H or go in front of a judge. Sadly, it is very easy to get divorced here.
I am still DBing and working with a coach. Even though I don't think I will be successful it helps keep me focused on what I need to do while keeping the door cracked just a little.
If I could find a decent place I would rent.
Looks like the pre-trial conference that was scheduled for 1/12 has been cancelled. I don't know why yet. So frustrating.
Hopefully H will just respond to my proposal and we can get on with the negotiation.
At what point is DBing no longer helpful? I feel like I need permission to "give up" on my marriage. It feels very wrong to simply move on. I know there is nothing I can do to make my H come back but I still put everything through the DB filter. And I feel like that keeps me on the edge of hope and keeps me from fully coming to terms with what is happening.
If anyone has any insights about how to move fully forward to accept and process the divorce, please chime in.
Becky,
DBing is a way of life for many of us here. The goal is to save ourselves first. If we have a legitimate shot at showing our spouse that we *can* change ourselves and improve our marriage, that's the gravy on the mashed potatoes. You can't make someone love you. But you CAN love yourself.
You don't move on, you move forward. You can't allow yourself to disappoint yourself based on what others think or do. First and foremost, you must prioritize yourself.
DBing your STBXH might look differently now. You might want to make a goal that you just change the way you communicate. I'll bet that many of your issues (like 99.9% of us here) are the direct result of an inability to communicate well? So DB him (and everyone else in your life) so that you say what you mean and mean what you say. Learn how to state your needs firmly but with compassion.
I challenge you to replace that sentence about keeping you on the edge of hope with one of faith that you are resilient and will prevail, no matter what the outcome may be. You don't need to be bitter or cynical to be in a mindset of accepting what today has to offer and making it the best day you can.
DBing isn't manipulating. For me, it was a lasting change. I've had a couple relapses, namely with a very tough period communicating with my now D21 when she was a senior in high school and for a couple years of college. I had a really tough time when some of my DB pals here reminded me that I possessed the skills to get out of our stalemate. So I got back to basics with the DB principles and worked my way back into a harmonious R with my daughter. Not perfect, but I begin with the end in mind, ask myself if what I say or don't say will bring us closer together and I pay attention to what she has to say.
I still do this with my XH, because we parent two girls together. I want my family to be as emotionally healthy as we can be, and I want to teach them how to live by example. It was very tough to change, but with discipline, it really makes an everlasting difference. It's helped me in my friendships and business relationships as well.
It's nothing more than the golden rule: to treat others the way I want to be treated. Sometimes I just need to show them how to do that.
It sounds like you feel you're wearing a halloween costume and wanting permission to take it off. It's a permanent way of dress. Otherwise, we come off as manipulative and phony.
If that's the case and you're truly not comfortable with your path, what do you feel you need to do to make yourself feel better about your life and your prospects for a happy future? In other words, what are your plans to MOVE FORWARD with your bucket list?
Or are you just feeling bad about the prospect of a failed marriage? I understand that. We all go through our mourning on that. It's not linear and it takes time. But you still need to make your future all about you. It took about 2 years for me to fully process my divorce and the fallout. It's like death - it takes time for the rawness to go away, but you still have grieving to do along the way. It's especially hard when it's not a clean break and obvious. For me personally, that two years was spent mostly forgiving myself. Be gentle with yourself.
In the meantime, I'd like to know more about who YOU are as a person and what you want to be when you grow up. Put that focus back on you...
Hugs,
Betsey
p.s. Probably the hardest R for me is my R with my mom. I love her, and we're good most of the time. But I have to put my DB hat on with her more often than most people in my life. Sometimes, she can be cruel and I expect her to be different as she ages. Why, I don't know. Because it's insanely stupid.
Sometimes I get so angry at our reality. I wonder how a mother could say what she says to me, yet go to church every day and do many things right otherwise? When I get stuck, I have a few people I can call. My biggest ally was her sister, who passed away suddenly in April. I lost the one person who understood both of us and found a way to help me work through stuff that can't be taken back. I've chosen to forgive her for her shortcomings and I remind myself that she does the best job she can with what she knows. Even though it falls short of the bar I set for myself and my R with my girls, it's true. She's chosen not to fix things or how she feels. The reality is that I have choices too, and I've chosen this path. Sometimes it's the hardest choice I have to make.
DBing gives me a way to communicate better. My old self would retaliate or say something equally hurtful to her. Now I evaluate if that brings me closer to my goal. My goal isn't to change her, Becky. It's to change me. I can fix how I respond to that. I choose to shut it down and not give it fuel to live on. I can sleep better at night when I choose that path. I figure the ugliness that occasionally comes out is a reflection of how she feels about herself and her anxieties. It's not about me.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Thanks for your response. I am a very strong and resilient person, sometimes too strong. I will be ok no matter what. That's not really the issue.
I am examining my life and trying to make some changes. STBX and I don't communicate much, so not much room to improve. I'be been so concerned about not pursing, going dark etc. I don't communicate. Now I'm ready to say "screw it" and do what I want.
I believe all the stuff you described is great but it's not DB. It's becoming a better person. To me, if you no longer have a goal of saving the the marriage it's not DB. Some of the concepts transfer but it's different.
I am realizing there is no hope for the marriage but it doesn't feel right just letting it go, even though it's out of my hands.
Right now I have my hands full getting my house ready to sell and dealing with the settlement. I'm staying busy no big new things right now.
Kind of rambling.
Maybe a little more clarity. As I move closer and closer to really letting go of my marriage it feels both good and bad. In 8 months I've gone from happily (I thought) marriage to almost divorced. Lots of emotion as I wrap my head around that.
Update: I have been posting here and there for a while but here is an update on my situation. From now on all my updates will be here.
My H and his L have my proposal. H is still submitting accurate financial information. Our court dates were cancelled due to the judge's schedule and likely won't happen until early March. So, unfortunately there is no sense of urgency for H.
I have no idea what his response will be, or when but I'm really ok no matter what. Unless the judge is completely crazy the worst-case scenario will still be tolerable, though hard to swallow. I'm no longer stressing about it. It is out of my hands now. And God has always provided more than enough for me.
I am dreading the whole legal process, selling a house, filing taxes and all that stuff. Can't wait for it to be over.
I accept that my marriage is over. I don't think any amount of DBing will change that. My goal is to get through this with grace and mercy.
My feelings toward H are mixed. I am disappointed, puzzled and sometimes angry at what he has done. I also feel sorry for him. He is not happy, he is not healthy. He is very far from God. I pray for him and I pray that I will be able to forgive.
This weekend is the 1 year anniversary of his father's death. Today I sent him a text saying I was praying for him as he deals with this. No agenda. No ulterior motive. He said Thank You.
I've been gaining insight into a lot of other things in my life that I will start to share. From now on my updates will be in Surviving the Big D.
Well it looks like H finally got all his stuff out of the house. Very mixed emotions about this. He still owes me back a hand gun he took, he took a few things I didn't intend and he left me with junk to clean up. I would expect no less from my hoarder husband. He is so broken. Sigh.
Still no response to my proposal and still no new court dates.
On the plus side, with a lot of help from family and friends I'm checking stuff off my to-do list on the house.
I think it's time for some new goals. I feel a bit adrift waiting for the divorce process to run its course.
Physical:
*In addition to Pilates 2x per week I will do something aerobic 2 days per week.
*I will track what I eat and drink in the WW app
Emotional/Mental:
*I will do Brain Training exercises every day for 10 minutes.
*I will finish Mater Plan months 3 and 4
*I will listen to 1 Ted Talk or other talk per week
*I will read 2 books per month. One fiction, one non-fiction.
*I will resume piano lessons
*I will do one activity per month with someone outside my core group
*I will attend Divorce Care every week possible
Spiritual
*I will read some scripture everyday
*I will pray for other people everyday
*I will write 3 gift in my journal everyday
*I will attend women's bible study every week possible
Nonfiction book suggestions for you - Just Mercy by Bryan Stephenson, and Picking Cotton by Ronald Cotton.
Thanks. I'll check those out.
Well I finally got a response to my proposal from STBX. He is delusional. It's all I can do to keep myself from calling him and telling him so! The fact that he is asking for so much feels like a betrayal all over again
I believe it will all get sorted out but it is a frustrating process! Our court dates got cancelled and won't happen now until early March. I hope negotiations will move forward in the mean time.
I really can't wait for this to be over.
I'm trying to stay focused on getting the house on the market. It's really hard not to sit a wallow right now, especially since this time of year I'm usually in a funk anyway. Ready for some sunshine and longer days!
I could use some perspective.
A couple of things of happened lately. First, I'm nearly positive that A is over. H is communicating a little more and suddenly made me a very generous offer on the house. Via text not his L. I told him I appreciated it but we needed to look at the entire settlement before we decided.
Here's the thing. H's health is not good. He is in a lot of pain. He told me he is seeing 2 news doctors this week but he is feeling hopeless. I am very concerned about his mental state.
I limit my responses to these emails. I expressed my concern and told him I pray for him. And I asked his brother to check on him.
I have a lot of sympathy and concern for H but he has never expressed any 2nd thoughts about the D. But I feel my caregiver self rising up. So I need to balance my concern with proper boundaries.
Any thoughts or advice?-