Well, I tried as hard as I could...but I wasn't able to save the marriage. Maybe there was too much damage done to the relationship. I don't know.
I certainly didn't want it. But it's a reality now.
God bless
Sorry to see you here with us in Surviving the big D, Antlers..
My goal is to make it out of this a better, stronger, wiser man, who won't repeat the mistakes of the past.
You and I have some things in common, as I have found out by following your sitch, and I hope you find healing and happiness on your forward journey now.
My goal is to make it out of this a better, stronger, wiser man, who won't repeat the mistakes of the past.
I just about believe that very thing!
I hope you find healing and happiness on your forward journey now.
Me too.
Thank you.
I wish the best for you too.
Hi Antlers
Sorry to see you here.... wish it could've been different.
I wish for you the serenity to accept the things you can not change, since I know you have the courage to change the things you can.
Peace
Bridge
Hey antlers..
Here's a little something my wise brother told me:
The best is yet to come.
Believe it.
*hugs*
Hi Antlers
Sorry to see you here.... wish it could've been different.
I wish for you the serenity to accept the things you can not change, since I know you have the courage to change the things you can.
Peace
Bridge
Hi Bridge.
I wish it could've been different too.
Thank you. I wish that very thing too.
Hey antlers..
Here's a little something my wise brother told me:
The best is yet to come.
Believe it.
*hugs*
Hi Gypsy.
God, I hope so!
Ummm...excuse me, but isn't it customary to get a round of drinks over here? May I have a grande skinny caramel latte?
I'll be moving over here before long, or perhaps Separated...we'll see when my current thread locks up.
Meanwhile, Happy New Year antlers. Peace.
Goldey
Ummm...excuse me, but isn't it customary to get a round of drinks over here? May I have a grande skinny caramel latte?
I'll be moving over here before long, or perhaps Separated...we'll see when my current thread locks up.
Meanwhile, Happy New Year antlers. Peace.
Goldey
You are welcome to whatever you prefer.
Hopefully it'll be separated, if anything. Is that what you want?
Peace to you too goldeylox. I hope 2010 is a great year for all of us.
Just journaling...
Went waterfowling this morning with a buddy that I hunted with a lot in the years past. First time out this season. We did good...shot a limit of Gadwalls. Had to break some thick ice to set out the decoys. We got 14 inches of snow on Christmas Eve and it's still real cold.
Son has spent the night the last 2 nights, and it's been a pretty good time. This divorce is gonna be nasty and very costly. He told me last night that his mom thinks that I'm trying to "spend all the money" because I bought a nice Christmas for them (she recently said the same thing to me) and I bought myself a new truck a little over a week ago. She continues to say derogatory things about me to them. Sometimes I don't know how to respond. I just don't say anything derogatory about her to them.
I am getting more enjoyment out of my work. Haven't been able to take down the Christmas stuff yet because of the weather. I'm just working at building myself up in every way I can to get through this and come out of it a better, stronger man. It hurts like a b!tch.
Just curious. Who ended up filing. W or you?
She continues to say derogatory things about me to them. Sometimes I don't know how to respond. I just don't say anything derogatory about her to them.
You are the bigger person in this and it shows.
Kevin
This divorce is gonna be nasty and very costly.
As is mine, so you know I know where you are coming from. However, you MUST keep this from the kids, at all costs. I know you are, and that is the only thing you can control. Civility in the face of you STBXW, acknowledging your kids feelings, etc.
I just don't say anything derogatory about her to them.
This is good, and you know it, no matter what happens, you will be the better person for it, and while you can't predict how others will respond, you will know you did the best you could.
She continues to say derogatory things about me to them. Sometimes I don't know how to respond
I don't know the proper response either, but I have already called my STBXW on this type of behavior and will do so again if I have to.
I'd suggest a conversation when kids are not around, where you can acknowledge that you STBXW may be hurting from things in the past, or MR, but that involving children in this, in even sideways comments such as you 'spending all the money' is hurtful to them, and impacts them.
I believe you can state this without being aggressive, or putting her on defense.
That's MHO, and since we are both in StBD, who knows if it's correct or not, but I think your doing the best you can!
Just curious. Who ended up filing. W or you?
She left on Feb. 22 of this year. She filed on Oct. 1st.
She continues to say derogatory things about me to them. Sometimes I don't know how to respond. I just don't say anything derogatory about her to them.
You are the bigger person in this and it shows.
Kevin
But she's successful at it with the kids, especially my two daughters. It hurts like a mutha.
This divorce is gonna be nasty and very costly.
As is mine, so you know I know where you are coming from. However, you MUST keep this from the kids, at all costs. I know you are, and that is the only thing you can control. Civility in the face of you STBXW, acknowledging your kids feelings, etc.
I just don't say anything derogatory about her to them.
This is good, and you know it, no matter what happens, you will be the better person for it, and while you can't predict how others will respond, you will know you did the best you could.
She continues to say derogatory things about me to them. Sometimes I don't know how to respond
I don't know the proper response either, but I have already called my STBXW on this type of behavior and will do so again if I have to.
I'd suggest a conversation when kids are not around, where you can acknowledge that you STBXW may be hurting from things in the past, or MR, but that involving children in this, in even sideways comments such as you 'spending all the money' is hurtful to them, and impacts them.
I believe you can state this without being aggressive, or putting her on defense.
That's MHO, and since we are both in StBD, who knows if it's correct or not, but I think your doing the best you can!
Hi man.
I so want them to know what she is doing!
Yep, I agree. I did my best. Will continue to do so.
I've called her on it to, and she just lies to me and says she's "not doing anything". I've acknowledged her hurt for a solid year. She is completely non-receptive when I tell her that doing that is harmful to the kids. I am doing my best iwantittowork...under piss poor circumstances.
You can't control anything but you. If something bad is being done, it will come to light on its own. Just concern yourself with Antlers and let the rest go.
Hey antlers..
Your name sounds soo.. prongy!
The former spouse and I promised the kids we wouldn't speak negatively of each other. Within an hour of uttering the oath, the former spouse was telling our daughter that the divorce was Mommy's fault, that she didn't clean the house, etc, etc,. I even heard him saying it out loud from another room. Once he was done talking to her I privately asked him about what he'd said. His reply, "Oh, I would never say anything negative about you."
We all have our own reality. Me.. I saw him as a huge liar, throwing crap over the dam while I tried keeping it plugged with my thumb. At the same time, I didn't feel it was appropriate to call him on it. His actions consistently spoke louder than his words.
Everyone told me, "The kids will know the truth, the kids will figure it out." And it's true. It's better to listen to your kids than tell them what to think. Actions.. whether they're loving, hateful, apathetic.. speak louder than words.
Children learn what their parents live. When in doubt, opt for the role model.. being the person you're meant to be.
*hugs*
Hey Antlers,
Just checking in on your thread. Looks like I will likely be over here soon as well.
On your issue with STBXW making negative comments to the kids, you are handling this well. Do not stoop to her level. Not once.
My parents D'd and pretty much had a terrible M as far back as I can remember. My mother had all of us kids convinced my dad was at fault. She repeatedly said bad things about him after the D. My dad never made a negative comment about her. Never.
Eventually, we figured out the truth. My mom had a lot of mental issues (still does) and made my dad's life (before and after the D) a living he!!. And, we all have a great relationship with our dad, but very few of us talk to my mother now.
Hang in there. Be the better person. It will all come out in the end. How do you want to be perceived at that point?
1. You can't control anything but you. 2. If something bad is being done, it will come to light on its own. 3. Just concern yourself with Antlers and let the rest go.
1. True that! 2. I hope so. 3. Absolutely the best advice I've heard all day...thanks!
Just concern yourself with Antlers and let the rest go. - O'dog
Sound wisdom. Thanks.
Hey antlers..
Your name sounds soo.. prongy!
The former spouse and I promised the kids we wouldn't speak negatively of each other. Within an hour of uttering the oath, the former spouse was telling our daughter that the divorce was Mommy's fault, that she didn't clean the house, etc, etc,. I even heard him saying it out loud from another room. Once he was done talking to her I privately asked him about what he'd said. His reply, "Oh, I would never say anything negative about you."
We all have our own reality. Me.. I saw him as a huge liar, throwing crap over the dam while I tried keeping it plugged with my thumb. At the same time, I didn't feel it was appropriate to call him on it. His actions consistently spoke louder than his words.
Everyone told me, "The kids will know the truth, the kids will figure it out." And it's true. It's better to listen to your kids than tell them what to think. Actions.. whether they're loving, hateful, apathetic.. speak louder than words.
Children learn what their parents live. When in doubt, opt for the role model.. being the person you're meant to be.
*hugs*
Hi Gypsy.
I'm a hunter.
Yep. She gave me the speech about how wrong it would be to say derogatory things about each other to our kids. And she has done it consistently since she left! And it's picked up, a bunch, since she filed for divorce.
She's being successful with it, especially with the girls. I've called her on it, and she just lies to my face.
God I hope it's true. "Actions...whether they're loving, hateful, apathetic...speak louder than words". True that!
"Children learn what their parents live. When in doubt, opt for the role model... being the person you're meant to be." - Gypsy
I wholeheartedly believe that very thing.
Hey Antlers,
Just checking in on your thread. Looks like I will likely be over here soon as well.
On your issue with STBXW making negative comments to the kids, you are handling this well. Do not stoop to her level. Not once.
My parents D'd and pretty much had a terrible M as far back as I can remember. My mother had all of us kids convinced my dad was at fault. She repeatedly said bad things about him after the D. My dad never made a negative comment about her. Never.
Eventually, we figured out the truth. My mom had a lot of mental issues (still does) and made my dad's life (before and after the D) a living he!!. And, we all have a great relationship with our dad, but very few of us talk to my mother now.
Hang in there. Be the better person. It will all come out in the end. How do you want to be perceived at that point?
Hey GIMA.
Sorry to see you headed this way.
Thanks. I don't intend to.
Sounds like he had to eat a lotta crap.
I hope my kids will know the truth.
I intend to. It's a painful b!tch though! I want to be perceived as a man who did everything in his power to make amends, and preserve the family, and came out of an awful crisis a better father, partner, and man altogether. One who loves his kids unconditionally and with compassion, and loves himself the same way.
I just read this on another post, and it's so good that I wanted it here too...
LET IT GO!!
There are people who can walk away from you. And hear me when I tell you this! When people can walk away from you: Let them walk.!!!
I don't want you to try to talk another person into staying with you, loving you, calling you, caring about you, coming to see you, staying attached to you. I mean hang up the phone. When people can walk away from you let them walk. Your destiny is never tied to anybody that left. The Bible said that, they came out from us that it might be made manifest that they were not for us. For had they been of us, no doubt they would have continued with us. [1 John 2:19]People leave you because they are not joined to you. And if they are not joined to you, you can't make them stay.
Let them go.
And it doesn't mean that they are a bad person it just means that their part in the story is over. And you've got to know when people's part in your story is over so that you don't keep trying to raise the dead. You've got to know when it's dead. You've got to know when it's over. Let me tell you something. I've got the gift of good-bye. It's the tenth spiritual gift, I believe in good-bye. It's not that I'm hateful, it's that I'm faithful, and I know whatever God means for me to have He'll give it to me. And if it takes too much sweat I don't need it. Stop begging people to stay. Let them go!!
If you are holding on to something that doesn't belong to you and was never intended for your life, then you need to......LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to past hurts and pains ......LET IT GO!!!
If someone can't treat you right, love you back, and see your worth.....LET IT GO!!!
If someone has angered you ........LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to some thoughts of evil and revenge......LET IT GO!!!
If you are involved in a wrong relationship or addiction......LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to a job that no longer meets your needs or talents....LET IT GO!!!
If you have a bad attitude.......LET IT GO!!!
If you keep judging others to make yourself feel better......LET IT GO!!!
If you're stuck in the past and God is trying to take you to a new level in him......LET IT GO!!!
If you are struggling with the healing of a broken relationship.......LET IT GO!!!
If you keep trying to help someone who won't even try to help themselves......LET IT GO!!!
If you're feeling depressed and stressed .........LET IT GO!!!
If there is a particular situation that you are so used to handling yourself and God is
saying "take your hands off of it," then you need to......LET IT GO!!!
Let the past be the past. Forget the former things. GOD is doing a new thing!!
LET IT GO!!! Get Right or Get Left .. think about it, and then
LET IT GO!!! The Battle is the Lord's!"
"When push comes to shove, stuff IS stuff. I struggled to learn that. And what is most important in life is often intangible, like the love of your children, being the best dad you can be, becoming the man you're meant to be, having your health. Most things that are taken for granted.
You're not alone." - Gypsy
This on another post, and it's so good that I wanted it here too. Thanks Gypsy.
Today I'm kinda strugglin' with the fact that things are what they are.
My 12 y/o son and 13 y/o daughter are so messed up right now...full of resentment and anger, and disrespect.
And their mother seems like a different person from the one I've known for all these years. Hard as stone. It's hard for me to get my brain around it.
My oldest daughter (wife's from a previous marriage that I've raised since she was 2 y/o) has seemingly decided to erase me from her life.
And oldest daughter and her mother are working big time on the little ones...to turn them further against me.
Next court date is in May. Things have definately gotten much worse since she filed for divorce on Oct. 1st.
Sometimes...a lot...I just don't know what to do or how to be. When you're goin' through hell, keep goin'! But damn...how far do you have to go before you get out of it?
The love of my children is something that I treasure, and I feel like I'm losing it. My oldest daughter is especially hurtful. We've communicated, gone out to eat, etc. since her mother left in Feb. of last year...but since her mother filed...oldest daughter has dropped me like a dirty shirt!
All of this is very painful. It's been going on for over a year now. And it's getting worse.
I'm trying. And I'm so ready to see light instead of darkness...and I'm so ready to feel something other than pain.
The love of my kids is the most important thing to me now, and so is being the best dad I can be, and becoming the man I was meant to be.
Sorry for the gloomy post, but some days are better than others...and right now I'm havin' a hard time.
Hi Antlers - just checking in on you.
I'm sorry your kids are having a rough time, and it seems they are taking it out on you right now. It's hard not to take it personally, but I think this is about the situation, not you, and they are just lashing out. I agree with Gypsy's post on the last page... actions speak louder than words.
Stay true to yourself and your beliefs, and show the kids you love them - not with things but with your attention, your time, and maybe even some space right now.
Today I'm kinda strugglin' with the fact that things are what they are.
My 12 y/o son and 13 y/o daughter are so messed up right now...full of resentment and anger, and disrespect.
Are you sure it's about you? They are at 'that' age as well. It could be about her having a bad hair day, the girl that snubbed him at lunch... reframe, refocus, regroup.
They need support in dealing with the brutal facts of their reality.. can you do more for "THAT" than you are doing?
If no, then tell yourself you are doing the best you can... we can't protect our kids from pain, hurt, suffering.
We can lessen it.. if you've done all you can to lessen it, then you as much as you might want to .. I don't think you can 'fix it'.
It's OK to hurt, antlers. What you chose to do with that hurt can be productive for you emotionally or not.
Are you still in IC?
And their mother seems like a different person from the one I've known for all these years. Hard as stone.
she's detached because of breaking the bond the two of you had. It's almost impossible for their to be closeness without a bond.
My oldest daughter (wife's from a previous marriage that I've raised since she was 2 y/o) has seemingly decided to erase me from her life.
very few things in life are permanent.. parental erasure included
And oldest daughter and her mother are working big time on the little ones...to turn them further against me.
is this rational thinking? Do you have evidence for this? Or is this a fear?
Things have definately gotten much worse since she filed for divorce on Oct. 1st.
there is a reason there is a v. between the names on the divorce decree
When you're goin' through hell, keep goin'! But damn...how far do you have to go before you get out of it?
it is what it is.. fighting it doesn't get you out any quicker.
I'm trying. And I'm so ready to see light instead of darkness...and I'm so ready to feel something other than pain.
only you can make that choice of what you are feeling..& what you are seeing.
Sorry for the gloomy post, but some days are better than others...and right now I'm havin' a hard time.
yep we all have them... what are you doing for GAL besides your solitary biking? Are you seeking others out for a some positive interactions & affirmation? Attending social events? Trying new adventures?
Peace
Bridge
Sorry to hear it's bad on every front. Just do your part to not throw any more gasoline on this fire.
You and I need to go for a bike ride.
Hi Antlers - just checking in on you.
I'm sorry your kids are having a rough time, and it seems they are taking it out on you right now. It's hard not to take it personally, but I think this is about the situation, not you, and they are just lashing out. I agree with Gypsy's post on the last page... actions speak louder than words.
Stay true to yourself and your beliefs, and show the kids you love them - not with things but with your attention, your time, and maybe even some space right now.
Hey mnt_dreams.
Thanks for checking in on me. It's been kind of a hard day and a half. The kiddos are having a hard time, and she thinks it's for reasons other than the separation/divorce. They are lashing out at me. It is hard not to take it personally. Maybe the situation does have a lot to do with it. I agree that 'actions speak louder than words'.
"Stay true to yourself and your beliefs, and show the kids you love them - not with things but with your attention, your time, and maybe even some space right now." - mnt_dreams
Thanks. Your insight on this is, I believe, right on.
Are you doing good today mnt_dreams?
Today I'm kinda strugglin' with the fact that things are what they are.
My 12 y/o son and 13 y/o daughter are so messed up right now...full of resentment and anger, and disrespect.
Are you sure it's about you? They are at 'that' age as well. It could be about her having a bad hair day, the girl that snubbed him at lunch... reframe, refocus, regroup.
They need support in dealing with the brutal facts of their reality.. can you do more for "THAT" than you are doing?
If no, then tell yourself you are doing the best you can... we can't protect our kids from pain, hurt, suffering.
We can lessen it.. if you've done all you can to lessen it, then you as much as you might want to .. I don't think you can 'fix it'.
It's OK to hurt, antlers. What you chose to do with that hurt can be productive for you emotionally or not.
Are you still in IC?
And their mother seems like a different person from the one I've known for all these years. Hard as stone.
she's detached because of breaking the bond the two of you had. It's almost impossible for their to be closeness without a bond.
My oldest daughter (wife's from a previous marriage that I've raised since she was 2 y/o) has seemingly decided to erase me from her life.
very few things in life are permanent.. parental erasure included
And oldest daughter and her mother are working big time on the little ones...to turn them further against me.
is this rational thinking? Do you have evidence for this? Or is this a fear?
Things have definately gotten much worse since she filed for divorce on Oct. 1st.
there is a reason there is a v. between the names on the divorce decree
When you're goin' through hell, keep goin'! But damn...how far do you have to go before you get out of it?
it is what it is.. fighting it doesn't get you out any quicker.
I'm trying. And I'm so ready to see light instead of darkness...and I'm so ready to feel something other than pain.
only you can make that choice of what you are feeling..& what you are seeing.
Sorry for the gloomy post, but some days are better than others...and right now I'm havin' a hard time.
yep we all have them... what are you doing for GAL besides your solitary biking? Are you seeking others out for a some positive interactions & affirmation? Attending social events? Trying new adventures?
Peace
Bridge
1. I'm sure that some of it is about me, and some of it is about the situation. Some of it may be because they are the ages they are. But your advice is spot on, and appreciated..."reframe, refocus, regroup".
2. I know they do Bridge! We can probably always do more, and I'm trying my best.
3. I'll continue to try to learn more and be even more supportive for them. I know they feel pain, hurt, and suffering. But they also feel resentment, anger, and disrespact. It's not good for them, just like it wasn't good for me.
4. I can't fix it. I just want to do better for them and with them.
5. I do. And I know you're familiar with the pain. I've chosen to change for the better. I have, and I still will. But I'm growing weary of hurting this much.
6. No. During the separation, when I began to improve and get stronger and healthier and better...I stayed with it for a good while. Then the insurance benefits ran out and it got very expensive at about the same time I thought I could get by without it for the time being.
7. There is no closeness on her part, no bond, and no attachment...no nothing! I still feel connected. I still care.
8. Thanks for that. I hope it holds true in this case. I've always loved her as much as my own kids, and I've always considered her 'mine' as much as the 2 little ones.
9. It's true, whether it's rational or not. They are always telling me "mom said you did this" or "big sister says you did that"...always derogatory things. They won't even hug me in front of her because they are uncomfortable with her seeing them show me affection. It's not a fear.
10. That doesn't mean it has to turn vindictive and hateful!
11. Agreed. It's been over a year now. And I'm just weary of hurting so much.
12. I keep hearing that, and I do believe that ultimately it's true. Nonetheless, I'm weary of hurting this bad. The remorse prolongs the pain, I suppose.
13. Yeah, I'm doin' what I can. Sometimes I ride with others...but the winter has pretty much shut the riding down. I do things more with friends, they come over or I go over; I even went to our huge Christmas party for work. I haven't done that without her for nearly 2 decades. I have the kids every single day that I'm off. Sorta hard gettin' used to being single.
Thanks for posting to me Bridge.
Sorry to hear it's bad on every front. Just do your part to not throw any more gasoline on this fire.
You and I need to go for a bike ride.
Hello O'dog.
"Just do your part to not throw any more gasoline on this fire." - O dog
That's good advice. Thanks.
I look forward to riding with ya'...in Alaska or Oklahoma, or somewhere else.
How ya' doin' man?
Today I'm kinda strugglin' with the fact that things are what they are.
My 12 y/o son and 13 y/o daughter are so messed up right now...full of resentment and anger, and disrespect.
Are you sure it's about you? They are at 'that' age as well. It could be about her having a bad hair day, the girl that snubbed him at lunch... reframe, refocus, regroup.
They need support in dealing with the brutal facts of their reality.. can you do more for "THAT" than you are doing?
My 12 y/o son is at his moms house right now, and I got a text from him 0300 this morning that said this...
"you disgust me"
That was the text, in its entirity. It hurts, and I really don't know what to do concerning this?
My 12 y/o son is at his moms house right now, and I got a text from him 0300 this morning that said this...
"you disgust me"
That was the text, in its entirity. It hurts, and I really don't know what to do concerning this?
Antlers: two random thought/ideas:
1)"Wow, that sure sounds serious. Could you tell me why so I might better understand why?"
2)Ignore it until he's ready to open up.
fwiw
Hi Gardener.
1. Yeah, because he's mad at me because I went out of town this weekend when he was supposed to be over here. He's also mad at me because I wouldn't take the Wii over to his moms before I left. She confiscates and keeps anything I take over there. W and oldest daughter also have been hammering at the little kids about how bad I am and turning the little ones against me.
2. I don't know what else I could do? His emotions are all over the map...one minute he tells me "I love you dad" and the next minute he tells me something like I posted above!
Jeez Ant, I can understand how your hurt by that, but not knowing what the context is as well, try not to project on what your S12 is thinking about. Maybe it was even meant for someone else? You just don't know until you can find out why he sent it.
I agree with Gardener, anything other than that, and your just going to torture yourself with your own thoughts on what your S12 is thinking.
Bad for both of you.
After, and if your s12 opens up a bit, you can decide from there.
My 12 y/o son is at his moms house right now, and I got a text from him 0300 this morning that said this...
"you disgust me"
why is he texting @ 3am?? Are you sure it's him?
I'd follow the other posters advice & ask him about it, validate it, work towards understanding him first... compassion.
Peace
Bridge
iwantittowork,
see my response to Gardener for some insight. It wasn't meant for someone else. He gets bothered when I try to talk with him about serious stuff. Others think I should just let it go, and show him unconditional love anyway.
Bridgestone,
He stays up all night, mostly on the computer, when he doesn't have to get up and go to school the next morning. He's done it a lot over Christmas Break. Yeah, it's him. I'm gonna show compassion, regardless. He gets upset whenever I try to talk to him about anything serious. He's got some issues, and he's been bothered by this separation and divorce, and he was also affected by the way I used to treat his mom...I'd be remiss not to mention that. I want more than anything to rebuild the relationships with my kids, but circumstances are really hard right now.
Hey Ant,
I saw your reply to Gardener, but it seems your still assuming a bunch from what you posted.
Let's go under the assumption that it's directed at you, though. What can you do?
Acknowledge how he feels, and understand that in a way, he is struggling and reaching out as best he can, currently..
I would suggest that you discuss with your C, and try and formulate a plan. They may suggest getting him to C as well, and that may be what is needed, so you'll have to plan on that possibility as well.
I don't see much else you can do. You can react negatively to what is happening, and that won't help one bit. Compassion and help, in the face of even getting stuff like this thrown at you may eventually help.
I know I am not offering much here, but we're seeing things only through the context of forum postings, and don't know you or your family, and why I am suggesting you look to outside help.
I will keep you and your family in my thoughts though, as I have been doing, and say some prayers for healing for you.
Peace, Antlers, and try and work on your positive attitude as that will carry over into your day to day life with your kids..
iwantittowork,
it was directed at me, for the reasons I stated. I replied to his text with "I love you". If he mentions it, I'll discuss it with him...but when I bring stuff up like that, he doesn't like it. I do understand that he is struggling. There's not a lot I can do, except be there for him, be compassionate, and love him unconditionally. Thank You for your good thoughts. I'll continue to work on my PMA.
Just a thought, from someone who works with your son's age group for a living...
Yes, it was about you, about this whole crappy situation...but also about his mom, a classmate who made him look stupid in front of a girl, his hormones, the teacher who he thinks hates them. It's all wrapped up together like a big, drippy burrito. That's also why you get the I love you.
I've been reading along for the last little while...and okay, your posts drip with guilt and self-flagellation. Did you screw up? Yes. Welcome to the human race. You can beat yourself up about it, or you can do the best with what you've got, learn from the situation, and come out the other side a lot stronger and smarter. I'm willing to bet you won't make those same mistakes again.
Anyway, if your vibe is guilty on here, I'm willing to bet your vibe is sort of guilty in your real life. That makes you vulnerable, no matter what your kids truly think of the situation. You are the "safe" parent to attack...when my colleague was going through her divorce, her 13 year old daughter told her she wasn't fit to be a parent, who the hell let her procreate. And this lady is just about the nicest woman...her hubby had an affair and basically treated her like his personal servant. Fast forward 9 years, and this same girl has no recollection of that conversation, and mom and daughter are close as can be, closer than dad and daughter.
Now, I also think you need to set some boundaries with your son. The *way* he spoke to you is unacceptable. He knows that. He may not want to have a conversation with you, but I think it's important you express the following to him:
S, I'm sorry you think so poorly of me, and I can see how you might feel that way. I am, however, your father, and it is not acceptable for you to talk to me this way. If you're angry with me, if you disagree with something I've done or said, or if you have questions for me, I am willing to have a conversation with you at any time. However, it is not okay for you to use abusive or insulting language with me or anyone else. Part of becoming a man is stepping up to the plate and handling your problems face to face. That said, is there anything you'd like to talk to me about that we can sort out?
Does that make sense? Just because he's angry doesn't mean he gets to be disrespectful.
Now...are you willing to hear what he has to say without defending yourself? Can you listen and validate what your child says so he feels safe to express himself? Are you willing to find the truth in his words and make amends?
I know it hurts, but everyone in your family is hurting from this whole situation. It sucks. But what an opportunity to teach your son how to man up and handle his disagreements with respect.
SD
Just a thought, from someone who works with your son's age group for a living...
Yes, it was about you, about this whole crappy situation...but also about his mom, a classmate who made him look stupid in front of a girl, his hormones, the teacher who he thinks hates them. It's all wrapped up together like a big, drippy burrito. That's also why you get the I love you.
I've been reading along for the last little while...and okay, your posts drip with guilt and self-flagellation. Did you screw up? Yes. Welcome to the human race. You can beat yourself up about it, or you can do the best with what you've got, learn from the situation, and come out the other side a lot stronger and smarter. I'm willing to bet you won't make those same mistakes again.
Anyway, if your vibe is guilty on here, I'm willing to bet your vibe is sort of guilty in your real life. That makes you vulnerable, no matter what your kids truly think of the situation. You are the "safe" parent to attack...when my colleague was going through her divorce, her 13 year old daughter told her she wasn't fit to be a parent, who the hell let her procreate. And this lady is just about the nicest woman...her hubby had an affair and basically treated her like his personal servant. Fast forward 9 years, and this same girl has no recollection of that conversation, and mom and daughter are close as can be, closer than dad and daughter.
Now, I also think you need to set some boundaries with your son. The *way* he spoke to you is unacceptable. He knows that. He may not want to have a conversation with you, but I think it's important you express the following to him:
S, I'm sorry you think so poorly of me, and I can see how you might feel that way. I am, however, your father, and it is not acceptable for you to talk to me this way. If you're angry with me, if you disagree with something I've done or said, or if you have questions for me, I am willing to have a conversation with you at any time. However, it is not okay for you to use abusive or insulting language with me or anyone else. Part of becoming a man is stepping up to the plate and handling your problems face to face. That said, is there anything you'd like to talk to me about that we can sort out?
Does that make sense? Just because he's angry doesn't mean he gets to be disrespectful.
Now...are you willing to hear what he has to say without defending yourself? Can you listen and validate what your child says so he feels safe to express himself? Are you willing to find the truth in his words and make amends?
I know it hurts, but everyone in your family is hurting from this whole situation. It sucks. But what an opportunity to teach your son how to man up and handle his disagreements with respect.
SD
Good mornin' SDFoundGirl.
Wow. Serendipity. I'm glad you're here.
I understand there's more to it than just me, but I feel like a whole lot of it is me, and it's hard not to take it personal. He's going through a lot (so is my 13 y/o daughter), I know that. Thank you for pointing this out. There's a lot more to his angst also, I recognize that...but I think this whole crappy situation is the brunt of it.
Yeah, I do have a lot of remorse, regrets, disappointment, and rejection to deal with (not to mention the pain and heartache)...and some self-indulgence in what I did wrong. Beating myself up for as long as I have hasn't helped the situation, or me, in any way whatsoever. It makes sense to do the best I can with what I've got, learn from the situation, and come out the other side a lot stronger and smarter. I have no intention of making those same mistakes again. Thanks for pointing this stuff out. It's sometimes very hard to do, especially under circumstances such as these.
Yes, I'm sure my vibe is a negative one (guilt, remorse, etc.) around my kids. It's weak, and I can see how that makes me vulnerable, regardless of how the kids feel about the situation. I can see how I'm the "safe" parent to attack. I never looked at it that way. Thanks.
I agree. I just have to handle it differently because of my past behavior. I have to realize that they (the kids) can't 'make' me angry. They can't force me to give up internal regulation of my emotions. I think he knows talking to me this way is wrong.
Your example is great. Thanks. I can tell that you do what you do for a living. I'll use it.
Yes, it makes perfect sense. And I agree with you.
Yes, I can do that. Yep, I can do that too. Absolutely.
It does hurt, and I agree that everyone (well, almost everyone) in the family is hurting from this situation. It sucketh. Thank you for your insight and expertise. I hope that you will stick around, or at least come by regularly. Thank you.
Sincerely,
antlers
I'm glad what I wrote was helpful.
Now, here's the truth: most parents of middle school aged kids take it personally, and it's SO not. The reason I love this age and thrive as a teacher for this age group is because I *don't* take it personally AND I set really firm boundaries. My students (lovingly) joke that I turn misbehaving kids into new boots for my collection.
A book that might really help you learn how to navigate this is _How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk_. It is inexpensive and absolutely PHENOMENAL. I recommend it to all of my parents...it was the book that helped me most with classroom management (they have a book specifically for teachers). It costs about $12, and you can find it in the parenting section of most bookstores.
http://tinyurl.com/ykg5nvqI just checked on Amazon, and it looks like the same authors wrote a book specifically addressing teens, but I don't know anything about that one. The strategies are pretty much the same K-12, it's just the language, consequences and responsibilities that shift.
So...part of shifting that self-flagellation is appreciating the positives. Make a list of the positive ways you've changed and the things you like about yourself. When you're wrapped in guilt, take that list out and re-read it. Wear it on your person...put it in your wallet. You can't change the past; it's over and done with. You know better now, so do better now. Let go of what you can't change.
Good luck to you!
SD
Good mornin' SDFoundGirl.
What you post to me is helpful.
It's hard not to take it personal when it's your own kid. I believe you; and I can see how it would be easier to not take it personal when it's your students. But when my own kids lash out at me like they do, especially my son, it hurts...and it's hard to not take it personal. It makes me feel like a failure as a parent. Is it not personal when my own kids lash out at me?
I will check out the book. Thanks. My son turned into a demon this morning while getting ready to leave for school. Nothing in particular happened either. And on the way to school this morning, he was just as mean as he could be...lashing out at me for everything he could think of.
I have a 13 y/o daughter too, so maybe the teen book would be helpful too.
I was feeling pretty good, we had a pretty good night last, but this morning he got mean, beligerent, and disrespectful. Talking to him does no good. It just pisses him off. Keep in mind my past behavior...angry, resentful, and abusive. Actions do speak louder than words, and I'm not sure how to handle this. Sometimes I think the best thing to do is not respond to this type of behavior from him at all...you can't reason with someone when they're pissed...and after he calms down, just tell him what you told me the other day..."it's not OK for you to talk to your dad like that". What do you think?
I do not want to self-flagellate anymore...but it sure makes you feel like a parental failure when your kids treat you this way.
I know I can't change the past...but I still want to 'fix' it. I know it's over and done with...but I still care about my W and family. I do know better now, and I'm doing better...but I'm having a different kind of trouble with my kids now that is a source for a lot of pain. I can't change them, but I can change me, and I can change the way I interact with them. I don't have anymore control over their thoughts, feelings, or actions than I do over those of their mother! But it's a painful situation nonetheless.
My son is so full of angst. I told him I loved him this morning on the way to school, while he was lashing out at me...and it pissed him off!
Your expertise is really appreciated.
Another good book, has a long title that I can't remember the beginning, but it ends with, "...But First, Would You Take Me and Cheryl To The Mall?" I'll try to get the name of the author, or perhaps someone who knows this book will chime in.
Peace in 2010. Goldey
p.s. I also have a 13 yo daughter, who told me last week that I am an irresponsible mother. Ouch.
Hi goldeylox. Thanks. This age group is full of angst and emotions under the best of circumstances...and I'm sure it increases tremendously when there is marital discord, separation, and divorce to add to the mix. It's hard to navigate. My kids are hurt, angry, bitter, resentful, abusive, etc., and I'm having trouble dealing with them lovingly, compassionately, and effectively...I love them and have compassion for them, but those things don't seem to matter to them.
reframe this..
I love them and have compassion for them, but those things don't seem to matter to them.
to this
I love them and have compassion for them,forever but those things don't seem to matter to them right now
You're right. Thanks.
What does matter to them right now?
Both kids seem like they are so different from what they were this summer, and they continue to change rapidly...and not in a good way!
They treat me like crap. And it's hard for me to interact with them effectively, under the circumstances. It's just another heartbreaking and painful chapter to this whole awful ordeal.
They are innocent victims...kids shouldn't have to pay for the stupidity of their parents.
what "effectively" looks like under these circumstances is different than what standard you are trying to hold yourself to...
cut yourself & them some slack. If it's the best you can do right now.. that's ok.
what "effectively" looks like under these circumstances is different than what standard you are trying to hold yourself to...
cut yourself & them some slack. If it's the best you can do right now.. that's ok.
You have a way of helping me look at things from a perspective that I never considered. Thanks.
I got the book you recommended and I'm gonna start reading it tonight. I hope it helps...these circumstances are definately different from normal circumstances. Thanks.
antlers, this can't be easy. Doing the right thing is never easy. And it takes time. She may never heal, or understand. But I admire the fact that you are trying.
It's not easy. I lost my wife and now I feel like I'm losing my kids. My daughter was here 15 minutes yesterday before she started calling me names and yelling at me (she hasn't been here in over in 2 weeks)...so I told her to get her things and I'd take her back to her moms. I did. She said the meanest things enroute..."I no longer consider you my father", etc. And son gets mad when he has to mind and starts saying "take me to moms" and cussing and yelling. Things with these kids have gotten exponentially worse since Oct. 1 when wife filed for divorce. I'm doin' my damnest to not give up internal control of my emotions during these episodes. Son got mad during the night and started cussing and screaming and said "I hate you", "I wish you were dead", I hate coming over here", etc. It's tough to hear. They are both emotional wrecks.
((antlers)) that has to be hard to hear..
In my divorce stipulation our mediator put the following:
Each parent agrees to support the other parent's relationshp with the child and agrees to abide by the following:
1- Neither parent will do anything to estrange the child from the other parent.
2- If the child develops a negativity toward a parent, then the other parent is responsible to assist in elminating the negativity through discussion and counseling as needed.
I would make appointments for yourself & your children together & separately for them to have someplace safe to deal with their emotions & teach you both how to communciate better in a place where you are both hearing the same expectations.
Personally I would put the note to your wife on hold until this sitatuion with your kids was under control better.
Peace
Bridge
My wife is contributing to it Bridge! Ever since she filed, the relationship with my kids has plummeted. I've asked her to co-parent, co-support, co-everything when it comes to our kids...and all she does is continue to turn them against me. She is full of hatred and vindictiveness and is now using our kids as a weapon against me. They are aleays telling me "mom said you did this" or "mom said you did that". Now they're saying things like "mom said you're trying to spend all the money so she won't get any"! It's so bad!
The kids are so hostile and out of control, and they WILL NOT go to counseling with me. I'd have to physically pick them up and put them in the car, and then they'd try to jump out. It's so bad.
I can't change them...but I can change the way I act and respond when they do this.
I'm working on a couple of different fronts...she has to help with the kids, and right now she's not! She's making things worse with them. The note to her would, in addition to the book, hopefully help or affect her in a positive way. She thinks I'm just a mean bastard and I liked being that way...the book portion would show her another perspective...one
that would be helpful to the situation in several ways. Helping her would encourage her to help me with the kids, instead of intentionally making things worse for me with the kids. And, it would show her the things that you and I have corresponded about...me realizing what it was like for her to live with me.
Helping her would encourage her to help me with the kids, instead of intentionally making things worse for me with the kids. And, it would show her the things that you and I have corresponded about...me realizing what it was like for her to live with me.
2 words: "fixing" & "expectations"
I wouldn't call it "fixing"... to try and help a woman to heal who lived for years with a man who made her walk on eggshells. I'd call it empathy. And compassion...to care about someone's hurt and be willing to do something about it.
"Expectations" that she will be helped to heal...and also to help the kids emotionally...aren't a bad thing.
You said "It's more about validating her decision to not live with a resentful, angry, & abusive man.. & not just Antler's perspective but from someone who counsels them." And I agree wholeheartedly with that. I do think the Stosny book portion can help her to understand more...and to heal.
Helping her would encourage her to help me with the kids, instead of intentionally making things worse for me with the kids. And, it would show her the things that you and I have corresponded about...me realizing what it was like for her to live with me.
2 words: "fixing" & "expectations"
I hear you expecting that IF she reads the book & IF she takes it seriously.. then she would choose to view it in a way that she could heal and help you with the kids, not make things worse.
To me I hear a lot of assumptions & expectations of what she would do if...
OK Bridge. If I give it to her , there's no guarantee that she'll read it...but she might. There's no guarantee that she'll take it seriously...but she might. It might even help her to understand what went down and why. And it might even help her to heal. And it might even motivate her to help with the kids instead of doing what she's doing.
But NONE of it is going to happen via Stosney if she's not given Stosney. That's a certainty. Many good things for her, the kids, and myself are 'possible' if given the book portion. It won't 'hurt' anything...but it 'might' help many people in the situation.
We've gone off on a tangent from our original discussion on this topic, and I don't really understand why, especially the play on words...nonetheless, we have.
I'd like to do it, for the same reasons that I originally mentioned when I first asked you about it. Healing and understanding for her...first and foremost.
ps - Are you still considering this...or have you changed your mind (I understand if you don't feel comfortable doing it)...."I'm still thinking about how I would like to hear it from Mr. Bridgestone... thanks for your patience. I'm slow to respond because I understand the gravity of this note for you & Mrs. Antlers, not because of being dismissive of it." Either way, thank you for your help and interest...not to mention your insight and expertise.
help her to understand what went down and why. And it might even help her to heal. And it might even motivate her to help with the kids
Antlers,
I'm sorry but at this point, if Mr. Bridgestone were to give me a book section with the explicit written intentions of helping me heal from our abusive R, to understand him & what went down, & let me know he thinks it would be helpful for me in becoming more helpful with the kids so he is treated better.... it would be like putting gasoline on a fire.
I guess that's what has bothered me about this.. your perecieved intentions.
I also get the impression this is really NOT what you want to convey to Mrs. Antlers.
I would want to hear....
Bridgestone,
It has taken me a while to understand even a tiny bit of the personal hell I have put you and our kids through with my selfish, immature,controlling, and abusive actions over the years. With the help of this book I have had a glimpse into the inner mind & feelings of an abused spouse. I am so regretful for my actions of treating the most precious people in the world to me as I did.
Because of things I have read in here & recognizing myself & you amongst the pages, I am learning to act in ways true to my core values of compassion, kindness, (&whatever else there is for you antlers) instead of reacting on the fear, anger, resentment that I did for years in our R. When I did that, you lived in fear of me.. that is a horrible way to live. I hope you can forgive me for that, but I can understand why you can't forget it, I know I can't.
You deserve nothing but the best in your life. I'm sorry I failed to be that for you during our R. I hope you can see that my core values of compassion & love for you are "letting you go" to live your life according to your core values, instead of in fear of mine.
Bridgestone,
Thank You. It is about her. Maybe I did a poor job trying to explain my feelings about it to you. What I want to convey to her is exactly what you say that you would want to hear yourself.
Sincerily,
antlers
ps - How are you doing? I hope I will be able to help you at times too.
Antlers. I'm a bit late returning to this. Sorry.
2. I don't know what else I could do? His emotions are all over the map...one minute he tells me "I love you dad" and the next minute he tells me something like I posted above!
Be assured of this one truism. No matter who says, intimates, does whatever to your kids - and despite their current response/reaction to it:
They'll be back.
Bridgestone,
reframe this..
I love them and have compassion for them, but those things don't seem to matter to them.
to this
I love them and have compassion for them,forever but those things don't seem to matter to them right now
Bingo! Great.
When my kids were growing up and would say any negative, "I can't..." "I'll never...", "I don't,", etc. I would finish their sentence with the word/comment, "Yet!"
Worked so well for them and I'm finding I (need to) do that kind of reframing more and more to
myself, lately!
antlers, hang on honey, I'm gonna give you a little whack here.
I walked (and filed for D) last year. And I couldn't see it through.
You want to know why? FEAR.
My kids said the same sh!t to me. Day in, day out. Not so good for the PMA. I cried myself to sleep every night. Couldn't they see I was trying to rescue them from a monster?
No.
They couldn't.
I was ripping apart the only family they had ever known.
This is the hard part. You have to let go of your expecations of others, and just work on you. Drop the rope with the kids.
Gardener is right. they'll be back. Someday. Trust me. Goldey
Antlers. I'm a bit late returning to this. Sorry.
2. I don't know what else I could do? His emotions are all over the map...one minute he tells me "I love you dad" and the next minute he tells me something like I posted above!
Be assured of this one truism. No matter who says, intimates, does whatever to your kids - and despite their current response/reaction to it:
They'll be back.
Hey Gardener.
Thank You for this. I hope it's a fact.
antlers, hang on honey, I'm gonna give you a little whack here.
I walked (and filed for D) last year. And I couldn't see it through.
You want to know why? FEAR.
My kids said the same sh!t to me. Day in, day out. Not so good for the PMA. I cried myself to sleep every night. Couldn't they see I was trying to rescue them from a monster?
No.
They couldn't.
I was ripping apart the only family they had ever known.
This is the hard part. You have to let go of your expecations of others, and just work on you. Drop the rope with the kids.
Gardener is right. they'll be back. Someday. Trust me. Goldey
Hi goldeylox.
Whack away. Never thought of dropping the rope with the kids! I'll work on it...feels counterintuitive though! I'll work on it.
OK...I trust you. Thanks.
How are things with you antlers?
some PMA today?
Yeah, I feel pretty good right now. I had a busy weekend at work, but now I'm off for the next 3 days. The weather is gonna be nicer here for the next few days too. PMA comes and goes, but I guess as more time passes, I become more accepting of my current reality. I don't like it, and it's not what I wanted...but it's what I've been dealt.
You doin' OK too?
One thing I forgot to mention recently...I bought myself a new truck on Dec. 21st! It's a Chevy Silverado LT with a crew cab. Nice!
I wasn't feeling very good that day and I was scheduled to work. I called in and took a mental health day...and my therapy was to go and buy a new pickup!
I'm really liking it!
wow... now that is retail therapy!
Antlers,
Hey Gardener.
Thank You for this. I hope it's a fact.
It was for me after my first D. To her credit, it was the current STBX Mrs. Gardener who kept repeating it, reassuring me of it.
And she was right.
Hey Gardener.
Haven't seen my oldest daughter in nearly 3 months (she's W's daughter from a previous marriage, and I've been the only dad she's ever known since she was 2 y/o). It hurts. My youngest daughter, 13 y/o, continues to be very mean and disrespectful...and I load her up and take her back to her mom's whenever she's that way. My son, 12 y/o, has spent lots of time with me recently. He didn't want to go back to his mom's last time, so he stayed with me the 3 nights he was supposed to be with her...he's been with me for 7 nights in a row now! He's supposed to go back with her tonight. He and I have been doing pretty good over the last week. He still has issues, but I'm responding to them differently than I have in the past. Incidentally, she was pissed that he wanted to stay with me...she even threatened to call the police! She even threatened me with her lawyer! I told her to take her threats and shove em'! I made it clear that my priorities are our kids and their well-being. Son has talked with her several times and she has quit sending me nastygrams. I haven't asked him what's going on over there either, if anything...I figured he'd tell me when he felt comfortable doing so. We've spent lots of QT together over the past week. I feel pretty good about the interactions between he and I over the past week.
That's a tough one, the oldest. How old is she? Of course it hurts. Bad. It can't not.
With your younger D, I don't know if it's your intent or not, but taking her back when she's mean an disrespectful let's her know that one thing hasn't changed: consequences for unacceptable behavior. And good for you and your son.
They are not all experiencing the same thing, not even the same "facts". They could all be present for the same event in the same room under these (or any) circumstances and each experience something entirely different.
I know it hurts.
My New Year's email to all four of mine was answered by StepD, 33 (as a reply to all) with a curt, "Stop contacting me." StepS, 30, dropped from the radar altogether. So now, in addition to striving to not take it personally, I try to turn it around. "It hurts," becomes a reminder that "StepD hurts; StepS hurts."
She's 20. Since her mom moved out she's made awful grades in college, she had to give up her apartment, she's lost one job after another, she moved in with her mom, she wrecked her car, her insurance went up, she recently totaled her car, and her life is pretty much screwed up right now.
She made the Dean's Honor Roll and very good grades consistently when she lived here and before her mom left.
It hurts like a b!tch for her to drop me like a hot rock like she has.
Youngest daughter will continue to experience consequences for mean and disrespectful behavior when she's over here...I'll take her back to her mom's.
I hope my son and I continue to do good.
ps - I'm learning to not take it personally...it's very hard sometimes. I know they hurt too. They are confused and bothered.
I'm learning that I have to accept/acknowledge my kid's unhappy feelings...if I try to push their bad feelings away, the more they become stuck in em'. The more comfortable I am in accepting their bad feelings, the easier it is for them to let go of em'. I guess you gotta be prepared to allow the expression of unhappiness.
I have to learn how to deal with all of their anger, hurt, frustration, etc....and still maintain my coolness and sanity.
Empathy.
Listen.
Sometimes I don't listen to my kids (or others for that matter). I wait for them to finish talking so I can say what I have to say. There's a difference between the two. Real listening is hard. I have to concentrate more if I'm not gonna just give a routine response.
I'm gonna become a better listener, not just to my kids, but to everyone I interact with.
She's 20. Since her mom moved out she's made awful grades in college, she had to give up her apartment, she's lost one job after another, she moved in with her mom, she wrecked her car, her insurance went up, she recently totaled her car, and her life is pretty much screwed up right now.
She made the Dean's Honor Roll and very good grades consistently when she lived here and before her mom left.
Sounds like Mom should insist on IC as a condition for living with her.
It hurts like a b!tch for her to drop me like a hot rock like she has.
I hear that.
Youngest daughter will continue to experience consequences for mean and disrespectful behavior when she's over here...I'll take her back to her mom's.
As long as the consequence is "leaving Dad's" and not punishment = "Back to Mom's."
antlers,
I'm learning that I have to accept/acknowledge my kid's unhappy feelings...if I try to push their bad feelings away, the more they become stuck in em'. The more comfortable I am in accepting their bad feelings, the easier it is for them to let go of em'. I guess you gotta be prepared to allow the expression of unhappiness.
I have to learn how to deal with all of their anger, hurt, frustration, etc....and still maintain my coolness and sanity.
Empathy.
Listen.
Sometimes I don't listen to my kids (or others for that matter). I wait for them to finish talking so I can say what I have to say. There's a difference between the two. Real listening is hard. I have to concentrate more if I'm not gonna just give a routine response.
I'm gonna become a better listener, not just to my kids, but to everyone I interact with.
Check out
How To Talk So Kids Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk.
Check out How To Talk So Kids Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk. - Gardener
I've got the book, and am reading it presently. It's awesome to be able to look at things from a different perspective that you never considered before. It was referred to me here on this board a couple of weeks ago.
Thanks G.
ps - how ya' doin' man?
Antlers,
I've got the book, and am reading it presently. It's awesome to be able to look at things from a different perspective that you never considered before. It was referred to me here on this board a couple of weeks ago.
Thanks G.
Interestingly, my DB TeleCoach suggested it to me for use in DBing. Said it was not just applicable to kids. I got it from the library but never finished it (was reading so many damn R books at the time). I may revisit it at some point.
Pretty good. Until about an hour ago. I just posted it. Overall, still good though, just a bit dismayed over the needlessness of it all (sitch), right now.
Thanks.
Yep, I agree that the book presents techniques that are not just applicable to kids.
Read your post. Sorry. The hard fact is that they wanted to do it more than they didn't want to do it. And they still want to do it...or they'd stop it.
We didn't want this, and they know it. They did want it.
ps - it's never too late to start doing what's right....for anybody!
antlers,
The hard fact is that they wanted to do it more than they didn't want to do it. And they still want to do it...or they'd stop it.
Love it. It doesn't get much more in-a-nutshell succinct than that!
Thanks.
I'm gonna become a better listener, not just to my kids, but to everyone I interact with.
Hey Ant, have not been by in a while, but just catching up with you. I love this above, and working on this myself.
That is a huge personal growth goal!
Sounds like you are doing well in your last few posts, glad to hear it!
Hey man.
"Become the best listener in the world".
It's a worthy goal.
I'm doin' OK. Some days are better than others. It's intermittent...hurt, remorse, sadness, regret, etc....you know, the usual.
ps - How are you doing?
I am doing ok Ant, I'd like to see if some people can stop by SirPrizeMe's new thread in Stbd he just posted. It really sounds like he needs some help and prayers.
I just ran across something that caught my attention...
He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers... - Malachi 4:6
Is there any hope for me with my kids? Is there anything I can do to recover lost ground? I am a dad who thinks he blew it. I hope it's never too late to close the gap with my kids. I have blown it with them in the past. Hopefully, as long as my kids and I are breathing, I'll have a second chance. Hopefully, my story as a dad isn't finished.
There are few things as bitter as regret.
Is there any hope for me with my kids? Is there anything I can do to recover lost ground? I am a dad who thinks he blew it. I hope it's never too late to close the gap with my kids. I have blown it with them in the past. Hopefully, as long as my kids and I are breathing, I'll have a second chance. Hopefully, my story as a dad isn't finished.
There are few things as bitter as regret.
Your statement above is ripe with helplessness. That this is permanent and won't or can't be changed.
WRONG!
First, you must believe that yes, there is hope. If you don't start from there, then there is no hope.
Next, you must realize that where you are now is not permanent. You can not predict the future, for yourself or anyone else, so why think and dwell on there is no hope of something ever changing?
Knowing that, allows you to maintain a positive attitude in the first place. Without it, you will be hard pressed to make any progress, and stay stuck in helplessness.
Regret is a useless emotion in my opinion, as it keeps you stuck where you are.
How about acknowledging that you made mistakes instead, resolve to correct them, which you have because you can not change the past, and work on a positive attitude for change for the future so you don't repeat the mistakes of your past?
Hi iwantittowork.
It's possible that you've misunderstood me. I don't feel helpless about this, and I don't believe it's permanent or can't be changed. I have hope, as I stated, that my story as a dad isn't finished and I'll have another chance. I believe that whatever has happened between my kids and I, under all those layers of hurt and distance...they long to be reconnected to me as I long to be reconnected to them. I think they want to forgive me and be right with me. We can't go back, but we can go forward. I believe they want to go forward as I do.
I've been acknowledging that I've made mistakes with them since before their mother left. And I have resolved to correct them, but it takes time...the dynamics here are totally screwed up. And they've gotten much worse since their mother filed for divorce.
It's gonna require some hard work. I want my kids and I to be reconnected at a heart level with each other.
Regret does shadow your life with a persistent, painful message of "what could have been".
Hey antlers... just checking in. Sorry about the communication problems you are experiencing right now. Great goal on working on your listening, vs. waiting for a chance to speak.
I wonder if you have considered, or perhaps already have, sitting your younger D and S down for a grownup talk about feelings, and where they are coming from, and where you are coming from? Much of what you've been sharing here should be shared with them. You're hurt, but you love them and always will, and you're willing to give them space if they need it, and will never give up on them. Also, a frequent fear for kids is that they are responsible for the breakup somehow. So, reassure them they aren't, and maybe speak about older D too... you love her and always will, and you understand this is tough on everyone.
Rambling thoughts, but if they haven't heard the good things you are sharing here - they need too! Set some ground rules for the discussion... time to talk, time to listen, no one yells, etc. and if you talk to them maturely, I think they will do the same.
antlers,
I forget if you are in IC or not. Might be helpful, especially with an IC who also does FC.
And there's this to consider, too.
We messed up, plain and simple. It doesn't mean that we have to stay that way.
Hey Ant, I don't think I misunderstood you, but also realize my post was a bit aggressive sounding, and that was not my intention.
I understand where you are at, but I really would hope you would work on your thoughts regarding this, such as:
Regret does shadow your life with a persistent, painful message of "what could have been".
Yes, understood, but it' recurring in your sitch and thoughts now, and you simply MUST get by this. Acknowledge that emotion, and then move past it, or it will permeate everything you do, your interaction with you stbxw and kids, etc.
I hope you understand where I am approaching this from. It's hard but liberating to move beyond it. Once you can, you can work from a place of health and happiness that will then be what permeates your relationships, etc.
My kids aren't receptive to serious talks with me. This separation and divorce has been a real b!tch so far, and it's getting worse. My kids know I love them, but they are at the age of puberty and they are flush with new hormones, new feelings, and new thoughts. Their mom and oldest daughter are taking advantage of that under the circumstances, and influencing the kids, especially youngest daughter, in a negative way against me. The kids are also manipulative at this age...and boy are they manipulating.
I wish they were receptive to things I have to say, but they aren't.
I got it a bunch after we were separated, and stayed with it for many months. I got stronger and was doing well, so I stopped when the insurance benefits ran out.
And I'm not staying that way. I'm better in so many ways. Doesn't change anything in the situation though. It gets worse daily.
I do honestly think I've 'regretted' enough! I agree with what you're saying. I gotta get past it.
I do understand your approach, and I so want to be liberated from the thoughts and feelings I have. I want so much what you describe.
There's just a huge amount of bad stuff going on right now, and things are really bad.
She's gonna try to take the kids away from me. I spent 4 hours today in the lawyers office looking at documents that she filled out, and she is lining her ducks up to take the kids from me. She paints a picture of how happy the kids are when with her and what a model parent she is. And she paints a dark picture of how unhappy the kids are with me and what a bad parent I am.
How on God's earth could someone you care about so much be so vindictive and intentionally inflict so much pain?
She's going after everything she can. Everything. I can't believe this is the woman I spent nearly 2 decades with!
'Yesterday is history. Tomorrow a mystery. Today is a gift.'
A friend sent me this by E-mail earlier today.
That's why its called the present!
That's why its called the present!
Catchy!
How on God's earth could someone you care about so much be so vindictive and intentionally inflict so much pain?
I don't know. You probably don't know. You can guess, but you'll likely not be right. The truth is, you may never know 'why'. You'll just have to accept the reality of the way things 'are'.
Your at the L, and trust he will do his best for you.
I can only offer advice from my own sitch and point of view, in hopes that others find what they need in themselves to persevere
She's going after everything she can. Everything. I can't believe this is the woman I spent nearly 2 decades with!
This is the reality. She may get it too. She may not. You simply do not know yet. Accept that she may, and work from there. Like your signature, look squarely at where you are, then accept it: Cut the fear in two and push through it.
How you handle this is the most important thing, and where you wind up in the end from it.
Read SurPrizeMe's thread, and decide if you will let this take you, or you will take it as it comes and continue to survive and thrive in the face of whatever happens or is thrown at you.
That is how you will persevere, in the face of this and all that will come.
That is what I have decided for myself. No matter what stbxw does, what the law decides, what my place and station will be at any given moment, if I have nothing but the clothes on my back, or maybe not even that:
I WILL NOT LET THEM TAKE OR BREAK MY SPIRIT, NOR TAKE FROM ME THE ME THAT I AM!! I almost slipped in that, when my STBXW dropped that bomb, and then as the financial devastation started. I then made the choice to not let those outside things affect the inside IWITW.
What will Antlers decide?
Hi iwantittowork.
Yes, I agree that 'knowing why or how' is much less important than just 'accepting' the reality of the way things 'are'.
I do trust that I and my attorney are doing our best. Things are getting unreal nasty.
And I appreciate you offering whatever you can...thanks.
I'm gonna fight it too, to the best of my ability. Thanks for the reminder about my signature line too, and putting it into perspective helps too.
Agreed. Hard to do...but agreed.
I want to take it as it comes, and I not only want to survive, but to thrive in the face of adversity.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
That's a determined and STRONG way to look at it, and it's the necessary attitude to have. That's stout!
Maintaining your coolness and staying strong no matter what seems tantamount!
Look squarely at where you are, then accept it: Cut the fear in two and push through it.
Great advice IWITW. Thanks.
That is what I have decided for myself. No matter what stbxw does, what the law decides, what my place and station will be at any given moment, if I have nothing but the clothes on my back, or maybe not even that: I WILL NOT LET THEM TAKE OR BREAK MY SPIRIT, NOR TAKE FROM ME THE ME THAT I AM!!
I almost slipped in that, when my STBXW dropped that bomb, and then as the financial devastation started. I then made the choice to not let those outside things affect the inside me.
Awesome. More great insight and advice. Thanks.
So true... whatever happens, we have the POWER to not let it break our spirits or sense of self!
Hi Antlers,
I am sorry you are having a tough time on the legal front. I think most of us can agree it is very stressful to address all the legal issues. Try and keep in mind in most cases, no matter what the laws of your state are, attnys will ask for the BIGGEST possible settlement so there is room to negotiate.
It took me a long time to totally trust my attny. He was great from day 1 but it is so difficult to put your whole life in the hands of another. Those four hour long meetings are so draining and I remember them well. I would leave my attnys office feeling like I had just been beat to hell.
You have learned from your past errors and that is what matters now for YOU!
Hi CityGirl.
Yeah, it sucks the big one. Yeah, I'm trying to keep that in mind. And also I'm trying to separate the emotional side from the legal side.
I trust mine. It's just ridiculously expensive.
I have learned from my past errors, and I have gained much insight as to why I behaved the way I did. A lot of stuff matters to me now that didn't matter before!
ps - thanks for stopping in. How are you?
antlers,
Even when you trust your attorney, keep in mind that so much of this is no longer between you and her: it's attorney vs. attorney. Their reputations and egos require them to go after and get as much as they can. To "win" for their client? Yeah, to some extent. But also to beat the other attorney.
My attorney (who really has just been advising throughout the Mediation process with another lawyer/mediator), said to me on more than one occasion,
"You want this!"
"Um, no I don't."
"Oh, yes you do!"
"No. I. Don't."
Have I taken some hits financially? Yeah, and she's taken a couple, too.
And I advise everyone to avoid Mediation like the plague. At least through regular litigation, the lawyers communicate and negotiate. In mediation, you're in that office sitting across from your spouse at every meeting. Emotion is always front and center.
It is said that marriage is about love; divorce is business. Don't get caught up in the business so much that you lose sight of all that you've learned about yourself. Or your dignity and integrity.
My hard-earned $.02.
Good luck.
So true... whatever happens, we have the POWER to not let it break our spirits or sense of self!
Yeah, we have more power than we realize. The trick is to access that power...to make the committment to exercise it. Hard to do under the emotional influences of our situations.
Tomato said it best... "I have resolved that life ebbs and flows all around personal confidence. Harness it my brother. Ask the Lord for His assistance on this matter."
Just got back from a 61 mile bicycle ride. Nothing like a fresh batch of endorphins to marinate my gray matter in!
It troubles me that she has become as vindictive as she has now that the divorce is in full swing. Using the kids as weapons is another thing that she swore that she'd never do!
I know that everone is fighting their own battles, but this situation is a bastard coated bastard with bastard filling!
Antlers,
Did you try mediation, and it broke down. Tell me more, i am in full swing right now of mediation. You said to avoid it like the plaque, could you provide some of your personal insight?
thanks,
Dane
Hi Dane.
It wasn't me. We haven't had any mediation, and I don't know if we will or not at this point. I'm in full swing right now of divorce. I didn't make the statement you're referring to.
I hope you're doin' good and stayin' strong.
oops, that was Gardener that made the statement.
You stay strong too, it is so hard I know. Just when you think you are doing better, you get an emotional whack that hits you in the gut.
Gardner weigh in please on mediation.
antlers,
Just got back from a 61 mile bicycle ride. Nothing like a fresh batch of endorphins to marinate my gray matter in!
While I am by no means sedentary (hiking, 10 mile walks, etc.), whenever I read things like this I say to myself, "Sixty-One
MILES? You people are
crazy!
Only kidding
It troubles me that she has become as vindictive as she has now that the divorce is in full swing. Using the kids as weapons is another thing that she swore that she'd never do!
That's tough. I've lost count of the things she's done that she swore she'd never do; as well as the things I'd have gone to my
grave believing she would never do/was incapable of doing.
I know that everone is fighting their own battles, but this situation is a bastard coated bastard with bastard filling!
With bastard sauce and a bastard garnish!
Oh, well. At least for me it ends the day after tomorrow.
Endure.
Dane,
Gardner weigh in please on mediation.
Gladly.
But, of course,
my experience with
my spouse and
one particular mediator: no sweeping judgements, here.
I had been warned by someone who went through mediation:
1) Mediators sometimes
seem to side with/favor the spouse who originally contacted and contracted with them. I think this was true -at times- in my case: Wife and mediator conducted a flurry of emails and phone calls. I needed to email mediator only once - and received a reply eight days later.
2) Mediators
seem to side with the same-gender party. Ditto, here, too.
Admittedly, 1) and 2) may be a case of my seeing what I was looking for, but I don't think so.
3) In mediation (as I just told Bridgestone), you and spouse are in the same room, face-to-face, side-by-side and the same old dynamics and emotions that got you to this point in the first place hang over the proceedings and interject themselves quite often - it can get snippy and petty on the part of the more bitter spouse.
For that reason (#3) and because I was/am a Mr. Nice Guy and wound up compromising
way too much, I put a stop to the whole thing in December. Told them both that everything thus far was null and void and we re-start the whole process anew. I also told mediator that she'll
really have to mediate from this point onward since she will have to relay everything back and forth between spouse and I because I will no longer negotiate in my wife's presence. And I do believe the Mediator seemed fairer and more impartial from that point on.
4)The mediator "mediated" far less than I would have expected. In other words, she often just sat there or said , "what do you guys think?" whenever we hit an impasse. I would then turn to her and say, "Your thoughts? Opinion?
Mediate, please!"
That being said, I do think that overall, Mediation was smoother, quicker, cheaper and less "war-like" than traditional lawyer vs. lawyer divorce.
And D is - finally - the day after tomorrow.
Hope that helps, Dane.
Thank you Gardener, Antler sorry for the hijack.
Dane,
Thank you Gardener, Antler sorry for the hijack.
Before we end the hijack: I forget, do you have a home thread or are you just one of the drive-bys?
Yes on the newcomer site, search for Dane. It is quite lengthy now.
I know that everone is fighting their own battles, but this situation is a bastard coated bastard with bastard filling!
I am thinking I may like bastard filling these days. Call me crazy ..
Whatever the stbx serves up, Ant is going to eat with a smile, as he knows it won't kill him, it'll just make him stronger for it, and will be able to handle the next helping of even worse bastard pie.
Well said.
I can't control what my STBX-Hus does. I can control how I respond. I choose to keep contact very brief, and to the point. It's all business now. Dissolving a partnership.
And if he gets angry, I hang up on him.
He's starting to figure out that I'm not kidding.
And that he can't hurt me anymore.
My last words to him, yesterday, "See you in court, babe".
Perfect Goldey!
I like it!
We can keep our side of the house clean, and that's it.
STBX may shovel mud and sh*t against the siding, and block the door, and occasionally break a window, steal some mail, and take some of the paychecks home, but if I keep cleaning up because we like MY house clean, and fix the window because I don't want a broken window on MY house.
Those are things I can fix and react to for what I want. I could retaliate, but then it will just escalate into all out war. I trust that in the end, when I do for my d9 and me what is right, that all will work out, and I will be happy and healthy.
I know the metaphor's are different across postings and people, but it all comes down to the same answers for most everyone. The road to those answers are different, and sometimes take longer for some to reach, but the end point is the same.....
antlers,
Just got back from a 61 mile bicycle ride. Nothing like a fresh batch of endorphins to marinate my gray matter in!
While I am by no means sedentary (hiking, 10 mile walks, etc.), whenever I read things like this I say to myself, "Sixty-One
MILES? You people are
crazy!
Only kidding
It troubles me that she has become as vindictive as she has now that the divorce is in full swing. Using the kids as weapons is another thing that she swore that she'd never do!
That's tough. I've lost count of the things she's done that she swore she'd never do; as well as the things I'd have gone to my
grave believing she would never do/was incapable of doing.
I know that everone is fighting their own battles, but this situation is a bastard coated bastard with bastard filling!
With bastard sauce and a bastard garnish!
Oh, well. At least for me it ends the day after tomorrow.
Endure.
Good luck to you today Gardener. Stay strong.
I know that everone is fighting their own battles, but this situation is a bastard coated bastard with bastard filling!
I am thinking I may like bastard filling these days. Call me crazy ..
Whatever the stbx serves up, Ant is going to eat with a smile, as he knows it won't kill him, it'll just make him stronger for it, and will be able to handle the next helping of even worse bastard pie.
I don't know about the "with a smile" part...but this is painful stuff. Maybe we need to learn to burn that pain as fuel for the journey that we're on.
It's all business now. Dissolving a partnership.
Feels like it's more than just that though.
yep it is business & just like with business one can approach it with a variety of perspectives, which brings about their own unique feelings & thoughts.
One that is common in divorce is:
"I'm taking all I can and getting out attitude & screw who ever thinks I should take less than exactly what is owed to me emotionally and financially."
or
"I understand both sides have positions that have arisen from both emotional fears & needs. As one of the negotiators in the process of dissovling the partnership, I can either feed the need & starve the fear or starve the need & feed the fear. To negotiate compassionately & fairly, with honor & respect, I need to understand the "why" of the other side in order to be able to adjust what I feed & starve.
acting in accordance to my core values determines which of the above I choose. It is difficult not to reciprocate, when the other side chooses to feed our fears & starve our needs.
One thing I used that helped to keep things in perspective for me was: how will "this" (whatever the contentious point was) affect my life (& my kids lives) in the next 5 weeks, 5 months, 5 years?
It's only when it started affecting things in the 5 year mark did I start pushing back by trying to understand his "why" & insisting that he at least try to understand mine.
Otherwise a lot of things got pushed to the side in light of the big picture.
I can sleep at my night given my settlement.
I wish the same for you.
Well said, Bridge. You are a class act.
Thanks Bridge. I'm dealing with an angry and vindictive woman right now.
If D is a business deal, mine broke down/melted down today and I cyber-stormed out. Eff 'em.
Sorry man. I'm not there yot. But the fight is definately on. One has to do (under these circumstances) what is best for their children and themselves.
She puts forth a lot of effort influencing our kids what a horrible person and unfit parent I am. But when it's convenient for her, she has no problem leaving our kids with this "horrible person" and "unfit parent"! She left a couple of days ago to go on another cruise, and guess who she left our kids with? Me! Oldest daughter decided at the last minute that she was gonna be too busy with other things to keep her younger brother and sister while their mom was gone.
She has become such a selfish and vindictive woman...something that she never was before!
Antlers, you know you have to be a horrible and unfit person in her mind.
If you're not then everything she thinks and thought and everything she's done would be......wrong.
And that cannot be.
Thanks G. They do paint a darker picture than the one that is actual reality in order to justify their actions! But the pure selfishness, at the expense of the kids, a home, a family...continues to boggle my mind!
Hmmm...I'm kinda busy this morning, but I'll come back and see you after I take care of my errands. Are you in the alt? I'm friends w/ Kerry K and Gypsy.
I'm not in the alt. I don't do FaceBook or any of those things.
I'm still working on having a different perspective regarding my kids. The welfare of my kids is the most important thing in my life. I've been weak in the past, since their mother left, and have depended on them for some of my emotional needs. That was wrong. They sensed it, and it bothered them.
They need me to be a rock. And I need to be a rock. For them. I'm doing better in that regard. I'm learning not to take stuff personal. They've got a lot of stuff going on in their heads now. Puberty, school, their parents are divorcing, the only family and safety and security they've ever known is shattered, etc.. They need me to LOVE them (and all that entails)...they don't need me to be their friend, and I don't need to worry about whether or not they 'like' me either.
I've had them for the last 7 nights in a row. Their mom went on another cruise, and made no provisions for them regarding getting them ready for school, getting them to and from school, who they were supposed to stay with, etc.. She's supposed to have them on my work days. She hasn't communicated with me at all regarding any of this. Oldest daughter was, I suppose, supposed to watch them and handle these things on my work days...but she decided, at the last nanosecond, thay she had other things to do that were more important to her.
Anyway, we've been doing pretty good since their mom has been gone (a couple of rough spots though). 13 y/o wanted me to take her to the movies last night, so we went and had a good time.
Unconditional love, strength, compassion, and wisdom...these are things I want to emulate 'to' them and 'for' them.
antlers,
I'll be back to you later, but for now:
Unconditional love, strength, compassion, and wisdom...these are things I want to emulate 'to' them
I must and will embody, personify and model for them.
antlers,
I'll be back to you later, but for now:
Unconditional love, strength, compassion, and wisdom...these are things I want to emulate 'to' them
I must and will embody, personify and model for them.
Duly noted. Thanks.
The kids are emotional wrecks. Their mom blames it all on me, but really, it's the separation and divorce that has them so whacked out.
The kids are emotional wrecks. Their mom blames it all on me, but really, it's the separation and divorce that has them so whacked out.
If you're not doing so already, I strongly recommend family counseling for you and the kids together.
Hi Gardener.
Yeah, they need it. They have needed it. Their mother threatened me during the separation not to take them..."You better not take them to counseling." I wanted to reconcile...so I was weak and didn't take them. Now, their mother has done such a job on them, that I think they would refuse to go if I tried to take them. Things are pretty rough right now.
Hard to imagine that we were married, and we had a family.
Hey Antlers..
I was told in a divorce kids model after their parents. I tried to do the best job I could with my explanation.
"You don't hold onto to someone who doesn't want to be there." Their dad had to want to be with us.
Just try your best. Go for counseling. Get in the best possible place to make good decisions.
"The kids will figure it out."
Be consistent. Live your ideals. Actions speak louder than words.
Read The Four Agreements. Don't make assumptions, don't take things personally, be impeccable with your word, always try your best. I filter my emotions through those agreements. Getting rid of the crap distills the message.
You are their father. Have been. Always will be.
*hugs*
Hey Antlers..
I was told in a divorce kids model after their parents. I tried to do the best job I could with my explanation.
"You don't hold onto to someone who doesn't want to be there." Their dad had to want to be with us.
Just try your best. Go for counseling. Get in the best possible place to make good decisions.
"The kids will figure it out."
Be consistent. Live your ideals. Actions speak louder than words.
Read The Four Agreements. Don't make assumptions, don't take things personally, be impeccable with your word, always try your best. I filter my emotions through those agreements. Getting rid of the crap distills the message.
You are their father. Have been. Always will be.
*hugs*
Hi Gypsy.
I'm picking up the book tonight after work. Been reading about it on the net and it looks uplifting. Thanks for the recommendation.
Your post is chock full of sound wisdom and good advice...and truths. Thank You.
Good choice Ant, you can surely find some good in that book.
Putting those into practice will be key.
For me, the best help has been 'Don't take things personally' I use it over and over, just saying those words at times when I start to dwell on STBXW or anything else that is going on.
What my STBXW is doing is not about me, it is about her and her Journey.
Not taking it personally allows me to focus again back to myself and what my d9 needs with me.
I think everyone needs to find there 'thing' or 'saying' that helps trigger or remove you from negative thought cycles.
Peace brother.
I think I'm going to pick that up myself...Looks like a good book...
3. Don't Make Assumptions
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.
This fits me to a T, I make assumptions all the time, not just with EX but at work too...
Hey iwantittowork.
Agreed. Taking things personally is actually selfish because you make the assumption that everything is about you! The whole darn world can think whatever they want about you, and if you don't take it personally you're immune.
Hey volleydog.
Yeah, assumptions often don't reflect reality at all. And assumptions can cause us to have thoughts that weaken us.
Hope things are going well for you antlers. I am in the same point as you, tried to give my W time and "space", did everything I could to save the marriage, she just didnt want to take the time and make it work.
Do you have a sitch summary anywhere?
antlers, the part about your wife whispering to the kids about your 'fitness to parent', and forbidding counseling for them, is not healthy. This is the exact thing that the Judge in our case warned us both not to do.
She is making a big mistake.
But enough about her, how do you choose to respond?
Be the better choice. Kids have pretty good BS radar. While Co-Dependent tactics may work a while (lying, using kids to do the grown-ups' work, avoidance) eventually it gets harder and harder to keep all the balls in the air.
Me, I'm using the Patience method, with a side order of Praying for Him to Crash and Burn approach.
I trust that God is watching out for me and my kids (and even my lousy STBX).
More legal stuff yesterday and today. The legal stuff is scary. It's intimidating and uncomfortable.
Acknowledge the icky feeling, and charge ahead.
The opposite of FEAR is FAITH.
The legal stuff is scary. It's intimidating and uncomfortable.
I thought the same thing so I did my own research, that helped a lot.
Her attorney is filing this morning, and the Court will grant, per my attorney, a GAL Motion and Motion for Leave to Amend Petition. She's trying to take my kids away from me. I don't understand what these motions are. I just know this thing is getting meaner and nastier. I feel uncertain and really bothered right now.
I don't know about your state, but here, if you file a sole custody petition and lose, it really makes the Petioner look bad. Most of the time backfires. NO FEAR. Trust that God is hard at work. He hears your voice, your prayer for help.
I want to clarify a bit...
In October 08, I filed for temporary emergency sole custody, and was awarded it, for 25 days because there was enough evidence to support that my H was abusive.
It was later amended, to a brief visitation schedule, when H came to court with half a dozen 'friends' from Church and told a different tale.
What is different in your case, is that you have NOT tried to demonize your wife, you have LOOKED at your own misgivings, and you are WORKING on you.
Sounds like you have nothing to worry about.
Unless you did something so hedonistic, so reprehensible, on the way to the courthouse TODAY, I think the Judge will see right through this charade. Peace.
Hey Ant,
Follow Goldey's advice. You don't know what is going to happen, so try and focus on the here and now.
I don't understand what these motions are.
Trust in your L to do what is right and best for you. You can't predict the outcome so don't waste energy on what 'may' or 'may not' happen. Focus on what you can, just as goldey says, and trust that things will work out in the end.
Sending thoughts your way, I know this is tough, but you can handle it. Step through that fear, and continue on!
What is different in your case, is that you have NOT tried to demonize your wife, you have LOOKED at your own misgivings, and you are WORKING on you.
Sounds like you have nothing to worry about.
Unless you did something so hedonistic, so reprehensible, on the way to the courthouse TODAY, I think the Judge will see right through this charade. Peace.
Yup!
Hope things are going well for you antlers. I am in the same point as you, tried to give my W time and "space", did everything I could to save the marriage, she just didnt want to take the time and make it work.
Do you have a sitch summary anywhere?
Hi man.
Things are a real pisser right now, but thanks. Sorry about your situation. It takes 2 to want it, and if 1 doesn't...there is NOTHING you can do except to start taking care of yourself better, and become a better person...for YOU! I'm presently fighting a war that NOBODY wins. I didn't want it, but it's what I got. The kids are innocent casualties.
I don't have a summary. Sorry. I've written a ton on this board.
antlers, the part about your wife whispering to the kids about your 'fitness to parent', and forbidding counseling for them, is not healthy. This is the exact thing that the Judge in our case warned us both not to do.
She is making a big mistake.
But enough about her, how do you choose to respond?
Be the better choice. Kids have pretty good BS radar. While Co-Dependent tactics may work a while (lying, using kids to do the grown-ups' work, avoidance) eventually it gets harder and harder to keep all the balls in the air.
Me, I'm using the Patience method, with a side order of Praying for Him to Crash and Burn approach.
I trust that God is watching out for me and my kids (and even my lousy STBX).
Hi goldeylox.
She doesn't 'whisper' anything to them. She makes sure they get it loud and clear. I know it's not healthy...she doesn't care! Her priority is her, and what she wants. The kids are weapons to her, something she uses to hurt me with. Her behavior is remarkably selfish. She knows I love our kids, and they love me. Yet, she's still doing this.
I know it's a mistake...but God himself couldn't convince her right now that she's doing anything wrong!
This is hard. I wouldn't wish this on someone that I despised!
Acknowledge the icky feeling, and charge ahead.
The opposite of FEAR is FAITH.
Thank You. I do acknowledge them...can't help but to feel em'. I sometimes ask myself...'what's the worst thing that could happen to me?' It sometimes helps put things in perspective.
I have faith...I have fear too. I sometimes feel alone in this though...don't feel a lot from the Man upstairs.
The legal stuff is scary. It's intimidating and uncomfortable.
I thought the same thing so I did my own research, that helped a lot.
Hey volleydog.
I hate it. I'm seeing and hearing things from her now that I NEVER thought possible with her! I'm dumbfounded!
Hey, antlers,
Yeah, they need it. They have needed it....I think they would refuse to go if I tried to take them.
You are the father. Insist. Period. After identifying a good counselor, see him first alone, learn his approach, his philosophy and get his advice as to how to overcome their reticence and possible refusal to attend. Years ago, my oldest wanted no part of it; my youngest wanted to go. We all went (sons and I, not W). Only about 6 - 8 sessions. Did a lot of good.
Hard to imagine that we were married, and we had a family.
Tell me.
Hi Gypsy.
I'm picking up the book tonight after work. Been reading about it on the net and it looks uplifting.
antlers, it is
liberating. And simple to immediately incorporate with minimal practice/effort. It is now my filter, too.
iwitw (and antlers),
For me, the best help has been 'Don't take things personally' I use it over and over, just saying those words at times when I start to dwell on STBXW or anything else that is going on.
Amen, iwitw.
When I got to "Don't make any assumptions" I did some serious soul-searching and realized - and had to admit to myself - that EVERY ONE of the dozens and dozens of assumptions I had made in the past year or so about my sitch, my wife, my life, my worries, my fears, etc. - EVERY ONE turned out not to be even
remotely true or factual. None come to pass. And for that I wasted time, energy, drained myself, lived an internal monolog of frenzied, fictional drama. And for what?
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Thanks, again, to Gypsy for turning
me on to the book, too.
antlers,
I hate it. I'm seeing and hearing things from her now that I NEVER thought possible with her! I'm dumbfounded!
Any judge worth his or her salt (and they see these kinds of cases dozens of times a week) is going to discern the truth about you, about her, about motives.
Stay calm. Remain unemotional. Do not allow yourself to be baited. OBEY your lawyer (and read or skim The Four Agreements beforehand.)
YOU are the better parent. Period.
I don't know about your state, but here, if you file a sole custody petition and lose, it really makes the Petioner look bad. Most of the time backfires. NO FEAR. Trust that God is hard at work. He hears your voice, your prayer for help.
Hey goldeylox.
I'm in Oklahoma. It's a no-fault state.
It is scary...the legal stuff and it's ramifications.
I hope God is hard at work, and I hope he hears what you say He does.
Thanks.
antlers, Hope is good. He is listening.
The Judges are really good people, and they have good BS radar. I'm so sorry your STBXW is using the kids as weapons. It sounds like she has a few issues to get worked out. Hopefully she will not end up a bitter and wrinkley like a crusty old raisin.
Things started to get better for me when I found myself on my knees (or one of them anyway) before God, begging for Him to save my little family.
And He did. Today, I sit here in my giant 3 bed apartment, with my cat, Hazel. S19 won't take my calls, S16 is hospitalized (and his Dad has unsupervised visits), and D13 is spewing poison every chance she gets.
Oh yeah, I'm a rockstar, allright.
(I'm reading, socializing, NOT working, and taking AD meds, btw, that last part sounds kinda whiney).
Best wishes as you move FORWARD.
What is different in your case, is that you have NOT tried to demonize your wife, you have LOOKED at your own misgivings, and you are WORKING on you.
Sounds like you have nothing to worry about.
Unless you did something so hedonistic, so reprehensible, on the way to the courthouse TODAY, I think the Judge will see right through this charade. Peace.
Hey goldey.
Yes, I have done those things...but, how does the Court know that? I feel worried, this legal crap is scary and intimidating.
Nope, didn't do anything like that on the way to Court!
Of course it's scary...Have you shared this with your L let him try to dumb things down for you, that helped me a ton.
The Court hears this cr@p all day, everyday. And they hear some pretty weird stuff.
You have acknowledged the things you've done wrong. And you are working to correct them.
A note about her: She is stuck with the 'old' version of you.
When the Court hears someone lie, or present some watered-down version of reality...they know.
You, my dear, will be a breath of fresh air.
A man. Doing the right thing.
goldey, antlers,
When the Court hears someone lie, or present some watered-down version of reality...they know.
You, my dear, will be a breath of fresh air.
A man. Doing the right thing.
Ain't it the truth!
Hey Ant,
Follow Goldey's advice. You don't know what is going to happen, so try and focus on the here and now.
I don't understand what these motions are.
Trust in your L to do what is right and best for you. You can't predict the outcome so don't waste energy on what 'may' or 'may not' happen. Focus on what you can, just as goldey says, and trust that things will work out in the end.
Sending thoughts your way, I know this is tough, but you can handle it. Step through that fear, and continue on!
Hey IWITW.
OK. I'm workin' on it.
OK. I trust my lawyer. And I certainly agree with what y'all are saying here. Just gets overwhelming sometimes.
Thank you for your good thoughts.
What is different in your case, is that you have NOT tried to demonize your wife, you have LOOKED at your own misgivings, and you are WORKING on you.
Sounds like you have nothing to worry about.
Unless you did something so hedonistic, so reprehensible, on the way to the courthouse TODAY, I think the Judge will see right through this charade. Peace.
Yup!
Hey O'dog. Thanks for keeping watch.
Hey, antlers,
Yeah, they need it. They have needed it....I think they would refuse to go if I tried to take them.
You are the father. Insist. Period. After identifying a good counselor, see him first alone, learn his approach, his philosophy and get his advice as to how to overcome their reticence and possible refusal to attend. Years ago, my oldest wanted no part of it; my youngest wanted to go. We all went (sons and I, not W). Only about 6 - 8 sessions. Did a lot of good.
Hard to imagine that we were married, and we had a family.
Tell me.
Hi G man.
Normally, that would be the case...but considering our past, when I was angry, resentful, and abusive...it's not that easy right now to have that attitude with them. I am a firm believer in counseling. I want more for myself, and I want it for them too.
Hi Gypsy.
I'm picking up the book tonight after work. Been reading about it on the net and it looks uplifting.
antlers, it is
liberating. And simple to immediately incorporate with minimal practice/effort. It is now my filter, too.
I've started it, but early on, it's kind of 'out there'. I hope to get past that and into the 'meat' of it soon.
iwitw (and antlers),
For me, the best help has been 'Don't take things personally' I use it over and over, just saying those words at times when I start to dwell on STBXW or anything else that is going on.
Amen, iwitw.
When I got to "Don't make any assumptions" I did some serious soul-searching and realized - and had to admit to myself - that EVERY ONE of the dozens and dozens of assumptions I had made in the past year or so about my sitch, my wife, my life, my worries, my fears, etc. - EVERY ONE turned out not to be even
remotely true or factual. None come to pass. And for that I wasted time, energy, drained myself, lived an internal monolog of frenzied, fictional drama. And for what?
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Thanks, again, to Gypsy for turning
me on to the book, too.
I've started doing that with my kids more, and it seems to help. It's hard to hear the things they say, and to put up with their behavior sometimes...but I'm really working on not taking it personally. They are eaten up with emotions themselves at their ages...and the crap that they've been dealing with between their mother and I certainly multiplies their angst.
It's been my experience, for the most part, that making assumptions has turned out for me the same way you say it has turned out for you.
antlers,
I hate it. I'm seeing and hearing things from her now that I NEVER thought possible with her! I'm dumbfounded!
Any judge worth his or her salt (and they see these kinds of cases dozens of times a week) is going to discern the truth about you, about her, about motives.
Stay calm. Remain unemotional. Do not allow yourself to be baited. OBEY your lawyer (and read or skim The Four Agreements beforehand.)
YOU are the better parent. Period.
I certainly hope so! You are giving me good advice, and I know it. Thanks.
I believe that too!
antlers, Hope is good. He is listening.
The Judges are really good people, and they have good BS radar. I'm so sorry your STBXW is using the kids as weapons. It sounds like she has a few issues to get worked out. Hopefully she will not end up a bitter and wrinkley like a crusty old raisin.
Things started to get better for me when I found myself on my knees (or one of them anyway) before God, begging for Him to save my little family.
And He did. Today, I sit here in my giant 3 bed apartment, with my cat, Hazel. S19 won't take my calls, S16 is hospitalized (and his Dad has unsupervised visits), and D13 is spewing poison every chance she gets.
Oh yeah, I'm a rockstar, allright.
(I'm reading, socializing, NOT working, and taking AD meds, btw, that last part sounds kinda whiney).
Best wishes as you move FORWARD.
goldeylox...thank you for your time and your help. I know He is listening...I just sometimes feel like He isn't. Things sound hard for you too. Sorry.
The rejection from loved ones is a b!tch...hurts bad! I know.
Of course it's scary...Have you shared this with your L let him try to dumb things down for you, that helped me a ton.
Yeah, she says I need to be completely non-emotional (damn hard) and look at it as strictly business.
The Court hears this cr@p all day, everyday. And they hear some pretty weird stuff.
You have acknowledged the things you've done wrong. And you are working to correct them.
A note about her: She is stuck with the 'old' version of you.
When the Court hears someone lie, or present some watered-down version of reality...they know.
You, my dear, will be a breath of fresh air.
A man. Doing the right thing.
Well I hope so. Certainly it will mean something to the Court that initially she wanted joint custody, and later on she changed her mind and filed paperwork to be able to get full custody.
I agree in that she is 'stuck' with the old me.
Thank you goldey for the positive strokes.
I prefer the term, getting De-Married.
goldey, antlers,
When the Court hears someone lie, or present some watered-down version of reality...they know.
You, my dear, will be a breath of fresh air.
A man. Doing the right thing.
Ain't it the truth!
Let's just hope the Judge and the Court see it that way too. Thanks.
Time to pick up that PMA. Wanna throw something on the CD player?
The Killers, "Everything is Going to be Alright"
anyone here use mediation instead of lawyers?
hey, antlers...think I might need to borrow your book.
I had a rough evening. Apparently I'm not done detaching.
Time to pick up that PMA. Wanna throw something on the CD player?
The Killers, "Everything is Going to be Alright"
Hey goldey.
PMA is always best, but sometimes hard...like when she changes the request for joint custody of the children to a request for sole custody of the children to be awarded to her, which is what she did on Wednesday. I'm pretty shaken over it.
Hey G.
Having kind of a rough go right now because of these new legal proceedings initiated ny her.
hey, antlers...think I might need to borrow your book.
I had a rough evening. Apparently I'm not done detaching.
I'm sorry goldey. I know the feeling. I think The 4 Agreements will be good...the first chapter is kind of 'out there' though. Thank goodness we are able to come here for help and support. Many here feel the same things that we do.
joint custody of the children to a request for sole custody of the children to be awarded to her, which is what she did on Wednesday.
What state are you in? I'd like to know what that sole custody means, legally before you build up your anxiety over it.
In my state, there is legal and physical custody, legal joint custody is pretty much the norm, and physical custody is where the difference is.
My stbxw will likely be the 'custodial' physical parent, but I have rights and that is not about taking my d9 away from me, it's just where she will spend most of her weekly time, at stbxw for school, etc.
There is little chance of me getting 50/50 physical custody, and that sucks, but that is NOT the end of the world.
Try and keep that anxiety away from you as best you can, or it will influence your decision making along the way.
Sending thoughts your way.
joint custody of the children to a request for sole custody of the children to be awarded to her, which is what she did on Wednesday.
What state are you in? I'd like to know what that sole custody means, legally before you build up your anxiety over it.
In my state, there is legal and physical custody, legal joint custody is pretty much the norm, and physical custody is where the difference is.
My stbxw will likely be the 'custodial' physical parent, but I have rights and that is not about taking my d9 away from me, it's just where she will spend most of her weekly time, at stbxw for school, etc.
There is little chance of me getting 50/50 physical custody, and that sucks, but that is NOT the end of the world.
Try and keep that anxiety away from you as best you can, or it will influence your decision making along the way.
Sending thoughts your way.
Hey IWITW.
I'm in podunk hillbilly Oklahoma. The paperwork seems cut and dried.
Initially we were supposed to have joint legal and physical custody, and the paperwork reflected that. Now, she's changed it so that she's requesting to be awarded sole custody of the children.
The kids have spent 50-50 time with each of us for over a year.
Well,I want to continue to have 50-50 custody. Their mother has already taken them away from me for 50% of the time that I used to get with them, and she voluntarily gave up 50% of the time that she used to get with them. And now, as vindictive and hateful as she's become, she's trying to take them away from me even more!
I'm trying IWITW, but it's damn hard. This legal crap is scary and intimidating. It's hard for me to get my brain around the fact that she's doing this!
Thanks man! Back at ya'.
ps - I really do appreciate you, and everyone else here.
FAITH.
Fear does not win where there is faith. (Well, I guess we have free will).
Look, your W is still living in the past. She cannot see the new and improved Mr. A.
THE JUDGE CAN.
Keep the faith.
God, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the Courage to change the things I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference. Amen
So, how to increase PMA? Get your GAL on.
Just read through your thread and am wishing you the best. You sound like a great dad and I am sure the courts will see it that way too!
FAITH.
Fear does not win where there is faith. (Well, I guess we have free will).
Look, your W is still living in the past. She cannot see the new and improved Mr. A.
THE JUDGE CAN.
Keep the faith.
God, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the Courage to change the things I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference. Amen
So, how to increase PMA? Get your GAL on.
Hi goldey.
Yeah, I'm scared and anxious about this. And yeah, she is still 'stuck' with the old me. I hope the judge can see me for what I really am.
My 12 y/o son spent 12 nights in a row with me...didn't want to go to his mom's. I thoroughly enjoyed having him around so much. Damn, I miss having him around all the time like he used to be before this awful crap started.
My kids are with me on my days off.
Just read through your thread and am wishing you the best. You sound like a great dad and I am sure the courts will see it that way too!
I hope so. I keep hoping that she's gonna pull her head out and process the reality that kids need both parents!
Antlers,
I'm sorry for what is going on in your sitch. I don't get what's going on with your W, especially regarding the need for a father for them. Keep up with the changes you're making. Maybe over time she'll see them.
Regarding your case, does your L think the fact that custody has been a certain way for a year now, that a judge will look at that fact?
Also, would it be a good idea to let the kids chime (to the court) in about their desire to stay with you, at least 50% of the time?
You may want to have witnesses on your behalf lined up, because it sounds as if your wife will use whatever tactics she can to get what she wants.
Antlers,
I'm sorry for what is going on in your sitch. I don't get what's going on with your W, especially regarding the need for a father for them. Keep up with the changes you're making. Maybe over time she'll see them.
Regarding your case, does your L think the fact that custody has been a certain way for a year now, that a judge will look at that fact?
Also, would it be a good idea to let the kids chime (to the court) in about their desire to stay with you, at least 50% of the time?
You may want to have witnesses on your behalf lined up, because it sounds as if your wife will use whatever tactics she can to get what she wants.
Hey man.
Yeah, it's a b!tch. I'm dealing with a hateful and vindictive woman, plain and simple. I'm gonna continue getting better and stronger, for me...whether she ever sees the changes or not.
I hope to heck the fact that custody has been this way for over a year will mean something to the Judge!
Their mom got a GAL involved with the case to do investigations, and they'll talk to the kids. Afterwards, they'll do an on-camera hearing with each kid individually and no counsel or parents will be there.
I'm lining them up right now...and yeah, she will do whatever it takes, regardless of who gets hurt (including the kids), to get what she wants. It's hard for me to get my brain around the fact that she's actually doing this crap!
This is an example of the whacked out thinking that I'm dealing with from her. Keep in mind that she has changed her filing from joint custody to sole custody. And she has constantly badmouthed me to the kids since she left. My son had stayed with me 12 consecutive nights recently. He didn't want to go to her house...he was supposed to be with her last night, but didn't want to go. He stayed with me again. Anyway, she sent me this e-mail last night...
"antlers,
1. Anytime I have the kids and you ask for them I let them go with you.
2. Anytime I have the kids and they want to go over there I let them.
3. If it's your turn to have them and they do not want to go, either I will
tell you or have them tell you. If your ok with them staying with me, then they
stay with me. If you're not ok with them staying with me then I support that
and get them to you.
You do not show that in return. You should be encouraging son to be with his
mother as much as he is with you. I would have never thought you would have
tried to drive a wedge between me and the kids as you are doing now. Kids can
deal with divorce. Millions go through it all of the time. But, for you to say
the stuff to these kids about me that you do and insinuate the negative stuff
about me to these kids that you are doing is causing more emotional and mental
damage to them that anything they are going through. The actual divorce doesn't
cause the emotional and mental problems, it's what they see and hear. In
addition, for your mother to say the negative stuff about me to the kids is just
as bad. As many times as we have been around my parents in the past year, they
have NEVER said anything negative about you to or in front of our kids.
According to our Temporary Order papers filed "Each party shall have temporary
visitation with the children about half of the time." You are now allowing
this. When it's time for them to come over here and you take them elsewhere and
I do not agree with it then #1 you are hurting them and #2 you are violating our
legal documents. One day they (son) will see what's really going on and you
will regret what you have done by not encouraging them to be with me.
I'm asking you that when it's my days to have them you support that as I have
done unless we agree otherwise. By not, it's hurting the kids more than the
parents. And if you truly love these kids like you say you do then you will not
do this to them.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
wife"
WTF? She's out of touch with reality. It's full of lies and misrepresentations of the truth! And, under the circumstances, it's unbelieveable that she wrote something like this to me! Sounds more like something I'd have written to her
hi antlers...
I'd let your attorney take a look at the email. It sounds to me like she will use the message and any response from you in the custody dispute. I'm sorry she's being so disagreeable. It's not fair to the kids, and in the end you and your W have to co-parent. Maybe a mediation would be helpful?
yes..i wouldn't even respond without your attorney looking at it.
Mr. A, thanks for your advice to take better care of Goldey. Working on it, really. "Some days are harder than others." Word.
hi antlers...
I'd let your attorney take a look at the email. It sounds to me like she will use the message and any response from you in the custody dispute. I'm sorry she's being so disagreeable. It's not fair to the kids, and in the end you and your W have to co-parent. Maybe a mediation would be helpful?
Good mornin'.
I have it saved in case I need it. It's not fair to the kids, that's for sure. Don't know about mediation...this is turning into a bad thing because of her.
yes..i wouldn't even respond without your attorney looking at it.
There's already been so much written and given to the attorneys, by she and I. I did respond to this e-mail last night. So be it. She wants to completely absolve herself of any suffering by the kids over this, and when she does it to me, I sometimes respond, like I did last night. There has been TONS of texting between she and I over the kids, so this e-mail and my response aren't gonna do much of anything one way or another in light of that. I just wanted to point out what I'm dealing with here. It's hard to get my brain around what she's doing, and then she writes me these messages that have the tone that they do!
Mr. A, thanks for your advice to take better care of Goldey. Working on it, really. "Some days are harder than others." Word.
You're welcome. I know you are...we all are! And we can all relate that "some days are better than others".
Mornin'. Had a busy weekend at work, and am now enjoying a peaceful day at home watching the snow fall and answering some more discovery questions from the other side. It's almost surreal that this is happening...but it is! That's the brutal reality. Sucks.
Made it through the first chapter of The Four Agreements...and it got much more appropriate at the end of the chapter. Now I'll be getting into the 'meat' of the book.
Feb. 22nd will be one year since she left the family home.
She filed for divorce on Oct. 1st.
It's been a helluva ride since about Dec. of 2008.
I'm sure as heck ready for some better times...but I still have this mean and nasty thing to go through, and it gets worse daily.
Kiddos come back over today after school...yea!
yes..i wouldn't even respond without your attorney looking at it.
There's already been so much written and given to the attorneys, by she and I. I did respond to this e-mail last night. So be it.
She wants to completely absolve herself of any suffering by the kids over this, and when she does it to me, I sometimes respond, like I did last night. There has been TONS of texting between she and I over the kids, so this e-mail and my response aren't gonna do much of anything one way or another in light of that. I just wanted to point out what I'm dealing with here. It's hard to get my brain around what she's doing, and then she writes me these messages that have the tone that they do! Good "I" message. I need a favor, would you be willing to post a portion of what you sent L? Blink once for yes, Twice for NO.
In an odd way, Mr. A, knowing you is helping me. As always, I respect your boundaries.
If it's comic relief you seek, I have a new thread, under construction. I laughed so hard, I thought I was going to pee my pants. Peace, Goldey
yes..i wouldn't even respond without your attorney looking at it.
There's already been so much written and given to the attorneys, by she and I. I did respond to this e-mail last night. So be it.
She wants to completely absolve herself of any suffering by the kids over this, and when she does it to me, I sometimes respond, like I did last night. There has been TONS of texting between she and I over the kids, so this e-mail and my response aren't gonna do much of anything one way or another in light of that. I just wanted to point out what I'm dealing with here. It's hard to get my brain around what she's doing, and then she writes me these messages that have the tone that they do! Good "I" message. I need a favor, would you be willing to post a portion of what you sent L? Blink once for yes, Twice for NO.
In an odd way, Mr. A, knowing you is helping me. As always, I respect your boundaries.
Hi goldey.
Not sure I follow your meaning here regarding the "I" message or the "odd way" that knowing me is helping you...but anyways, I have sent e-mails to my attorney regarding the way she badmouths me to the kids (they've told me) because it's a violation of the Court orders to do so. And I've let my attorney know of just how late she brings the kids to me, especially on school nights, and then gets pissed when I won't let her pick them up as early as she wants to when it's time for them to go back. Things like that. And I know she has done the same because when she sends me a nastygram by text or e-mail, she 'draws' her lawyer like a gun!
If it's comic relief you seek, I have a new thread, under construction. I laughed so hard, I thought I was going to pee my pants. Peace, Goldey
I'll check it out...but I really don't want to pee my pants!
Mr. A, you are being the better person. If my STBX-H (Roast Beast) had once, just once, indicated he had the capacity to join a website to save our M, instead of his "other" web activities, we'd be living under the same roof, with our children. Lucky for me, he is a Tool. An Insect. (I'm kinda angry with him today...it will pass).
I'd agree, peeing your pants is an attention-grabber, and I don't think you need your STBX-W going around telling everyone you wet yourself.
Keep up the good work. I really gotta go get this book. What is the Title, Author, exactly? I'll try to send someone to the library today.
The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.
You, and everyone else I know of, would also benefit from Love Without Hurt by Steven Stosny.
I'm so much a better man and father now...I just hate it that I don't get another chance with her now...another chance for our family!
Anyway, I appreciate you being around. Thanks. You keep up the good work too.
antlers,
Please go visit Gypsy.
antlers,
Please go visit Gypsy.
OK.
My son has been sick and I was letting his mom know that I was keeping him home from school today. There was some back and forth texting, and she attacked me, which is pretty normal for her. I then said that I was the only one who had 'owned' anything and accepted responsibility for the things I'd done but that didn't change the fact that she was also responsible for the things that she's done/doing.
She sent this..."the only thing I did wrong was stay in the God awful marriage for as long as I did. I allowed the kids and myself to go through hell which has and will have an everlasting effect on us. That's what I own up to and accept responsibility for. Done."
I thought about things for a while...the marriage, the separation, the divorce.
And I responded simply with this..."You're right, we didn't work , it wouldn't have worked. You're right, divorce is the right thing to do. You didn't care about me or trust my changes, and I couldn't trust you...and this is all for the best. I'll continue to be a good father to our kids, but I won't be a weekend dad. I want joint physical and legal custody of our kids. Honestly, I've begun to feel differently about the situation. I've had different thoughts about you and being married to you. I didn't feel like I could believe you or trust you. And so much stuff has happened. I should have told you sooner, but I was afraid of your reaction."
ps - wonder what robx would think about that?!?
I would have said:
"You're right, we didn't work , it wouldn't have worked. You're right, divorce is the right thing to do. You didn't care about me or trust my changes, and I couldn't trust you...and this is all for the best. I'll continue to be a good father to our kids, but I won't be a weekend dad. I want joint physical and legal custody of our kids. Honestly, I've begun to feel differently about the situation. I've had different thoughts about you and being married to you. I didn't feel like I could believe you or trust you. And so much stuff has happened. I should have told you sooner, but I was afraid of your reaction."
Why? I'm really interested in hearing your opinion and reasoning on this!
The response has too much emotion.
Too much emotion means she's hit an artery.
When you're confident and detached you don't need to get emotional. Facts and strong, positive actions will do the work.
__
But this is just my view. The Dog doesn't like to waste emotional energy arguing with the she. I just do my thing. If she makes a bunch of noise I ignore it.
And you know what? There's been less of that lately.
(Robx may have other opinions)
Although I would be guilty of writing something that Antlers did...I would have to agree that less emotion is better. Makes you seem so much stronger and indifferent to her crap.
The response has too much emotion.
Too much emotion means she's hit an artery.
When you're confident and detached you don't need to get emotional. Facts and strong, positive actions will do the work.
__
But this is just my view. The Dog doesn't like to waste emotional energy arguing with the she. I just do my thing. If she makes a bunch of noise I ignore it.
And you know what? There's been less of that lately.
(Robx may have other opinions)
It's the first time since she left that I've had a response like this. It feels counterintuitive...I agreed with what she said, instead of bantering back and forth with her. I'm not arguing with her, I'm not contesting her feelings, I'm agreeing with her...and she has nothing to fight against.
Arguing with her and trying to get her to change her mind by countering everything she said about me and the relationship, disagreeing with her, and disagreeing with reality (pursuit)...did nothing but push her further away.
Now I show her that I agree with her, and I agree with reality, and I'm moving on without her...I'm not pursuing. There's no fighting or arguing, no pursuit, and no pressure. The goal is to move on with my life and when she finally gets that I'm not pursuing her anymore and that I agree with the divorce and moving in that direction, her feelings will have nothing to fight against.
Will it make a difference? Damned if I know! I do know it can't hurt anything! Sure can't make anything any worse than it is. But doing what I've been doing all along, as far as trying to get her to see things differently, has done NOTHING helpful for me...at all!
Although I would be guilty of writing something that Antlers did...I would have to agree that less emotion is better. Makes you seem so much stronger and indifferent to her crap.
I've been doing what I 'felt' I should be doing instead of observing reality. It might have shocked her, and I don't think she expected it out of me. Maybe it shook something up...I don't know. But it didn't hurt.
Do you think it's 'not' strong to accept reality, choke it down, and move on?
Do you think it's 'not' strong to accept reality, choke it down, and move on?
No I think its strong...I was just saying that I am guilty of writing too many words trying to get my point across. Less words would be like shrugging your shoulders and saying 'yeah, yeah, whatever'. That her quacking didn't phase you one way or the other.
She texted me this later on yesterday in response to my text that I posted here earlier...
"It's not that I didn't "trust your changes" but by the time you decided to "change" you had already pushed me over the edge. And I did "care about you" or I wouldn't have put myself through hell for 15 years trying to make things work. Remember I was the one who always put the forth the effort first whenever we had a disagreement and I was the only one who apologized (even when it wasn't my doing) and I was the one who always said "I love you". I bet you didn't tell me that first 2 times the entire time we were together."
She texted me this later on yesterday in response to my text that I posted here earlier...
"It's not that I didn't "trust your changes" but by the time you decided to "change" you had already pushed me over the edge. And I did "care about you" or I wouldn't have put myself through hell for 15 years trying to make things work. Remember I was the one who always put the forth the effort first whenever we had a disagreement and I was the only one who apologized (even when it wasn't my doing) and I was the one who always said "I love you". I bet you didn't tell me that first 2 times the entire time we were together."
She is telling you what she wanted. This is gold. If you are still in the mode of wanting to reconcile, this is what I would say.
"I can see how me not telling you would hurt. I am sorry that I let my feelings go unsaid. I am going to say this for both of us, I did and do love you."
Then just be still.
What Coach said... said with empathy and compassion in your tone.
I thought about it for the day, and then I sent it to her about 11:30 that night. Texting is our only source of communication anymore.
We don't talk anymore, in person or over the phone. Texting is the only way we have communicated for a long time now. Anyway, I sent it to her late Wednesday night. No expectations. None. I 'meant' it with empathy and compassion though.
Just got back from doing the court mandated parenting class for children of divorce. Got my certificate for the lawyers and the GAL. There was some good information in there. It's sad...the place was packed! Anyway, got it done. I have an appointment next Wednesday with the GAL. Unreal that this thing has taken the mean and ugly turns that it has.
Just got back from doing the court mandated parenting class for children of divorce. Got my certificate for the lawyers and the GAL. There was some good information in there. It's sad...the place was packed! Anyway, got it done. I have an appointment next Wednesday with the GAL. Unreal that this thing has taken the mean and ugly turns that it has.
Just did the same type class last weekend, and you're right...it is very sad how packed they are. Sorry that things are so strained and have turned so ugly. Hang in there and be strong. I understand how surreal all this must feel.
I was also stunned at how many people where in the parenting class.
However, I did notice that there was several attractive ladies there!
Ant, you sound like your doing well, hope you can keep your PMA going.
Just got back from doing the court mandated parenting class for children of divorce. Got my certificate for the lawyers and the GAL. There was some good information in there. It's sad...the place was packed! Anyway, got it done. I have an appointment next Wednesday with the GAL. Unreal that this thing has taken the mean and ugly turns that it has.
Just did the same type class last weekend, and you're right...it is very sad how packed they are. Sorry that things are so strained and have turned so ugly. Hang in there and be strong. I understand how surreal all this must feel.
Thanks. It's a b!tch. Everyday it gets worse...wondering when it's gonna get better. The legal war between she and I, waged by her, is completely and utterly ridiculous. I feel like I'm dealing with Satan! And we were together for nearly 2 decades!
I was also stunned at how many people where in the parenting class.
However, I did notice that there was several attractive ladies there!
Ant, you sound like your doing well, hope you can keep your PMA going.
Hi.
I didn't notice the ladies. Everyone there had a sad countenance upon their face. Damn shame.
Well, I'm still alive. Presently going through hell, with no end in sight.
I hope you're doing OK.
Coach, she sent it back to me tonight with some commentary...
"I can see how me not telling you would hurt. I am sorry that I let my feelings go unsaid. I am going to say this for both of us, I did and do love you." You did and do love me, huh? Is this why you've spread those LIES about me to our kids, my parents, and your family, and no telling who else? I have to call BS on that crap.
Coach, do I respond...and if so, how?
ps - any comments are appreciated.
Here is my POV. She is now communicating with you even though it's in a negative way. She has all this resentment built up against you and it needs to come out. You need to be able to stand up against it, not get defensive, validate, support, call her on mind-reading all while remaining in control of yourself.
She's telling you that she doesn't believe you. She feels like you are still hurting her by telling lies (?). Even during divorce she wants your support and approval because she loves you way down in there. Why did she respond when you told her you loved her? If you respond you will have to put on the spew raincoat, never forget anger is good. There is not indifference in her response. What could you say that would let her know you hear her and that you do love her? Better how could you show her?
I would get Sandi to respond, I am asking the Greek to read.
You can handle it.
Cheers
What could you say that would let her know you hear her and that you do love her? Better how could you show her?
I would get Sandi to respond, I am asking the Greek to read.
I don't know, that's why I'm asking for help.
I'll enlist Sandi's help, and I would appreciate Greek too....and anyone else here who could help. Thanks.
antlers-
I agree with Coach. She's communicating, and that's good. Interesting that she went right for this thing about the lies. Do you know what she's talking about?
Hi futureunknown. During one year of separation so far, including divorce proceedings which have been going on for 4 and 1/2 months, many things happen. There are lots of emotions at play...many things get said and done...on both sides. I didn't want any of it, but it has become a war...a war that nobody wins. Everything that she has said and done is fine, in her opinion. But anything that I have said or done has been, of course, wrong (lies)...in her opinion.
antlers,
But of course.
1) In relationships, there is no
objective, only
subjective.
2) In divorce, only
one person is unreasonable: the
other one!
Yeah, I struggle with that too. Divorce is a war. How do you go to war with someone and simultaneously try to demonstrate a loving attitude? In my situation, the legal negotiations have destroyed nearly all the good will I've built up over the last year. She's suspicious of ulterior motives in nearly every interaction we have, and I admit, I'm suspicious too.
Hi ya Antlers! I saw you flagging me down. What's up?
Hi ya Antlers! I saw you flagging me down. What's up?
Hi sandi, thanks for coming. Please go to page 22 of this thread to post #1934617 on 2/9/10 at 1:27 pm and read on from there to get caught up. I'd appreciate it... I need your input. Thank You.
Yeah, I struggle with that too. Divorce is a war. How do you go to war with someone and simultaneously try to demonstrate a loving attitude? In my situation, the legal negotiations have destroyed nearly all the good will I've built up over the last year. She's suspicious of ulterior motives in nearly every interaction we have, and I admit, I'm suspicious too.
I could've written this myself. The legal system is so adversarial that it creates situations where any good will present on either side is destroyed.
In divorce, only one person is unreasonable: the other one!
Yep. It's that way!
While this sounds like an excuse I can say in my experience it is close to impossible to DB or do anything "good" while you are working through a difficult divorce. And Antlers, it sounds like the LEGAL side of your divorce is tough. I can relate as mine was as well.
What people seem to forget (maybe not forget but not "get" until they are living it) when the legal side of divorce starts there are lots of "cooks in the kitchen". You have 2 spouses, attnys that are both whispering "do this, do that", a REALLY screwed up legal system, judges and add in custody issues and an affair and its enough to send anybody over the edge.
It's not that you don't want to be loving and compassionate or be *something* but when one attny is saying "watch what you say" and you have another attny saying "don't do this, do that" it all gets *very* complicated.
I don't know about you but all the court stuff really frightened me. I have never been in trouble in my life! And I wasn't in "trouble" but for me it was *very* scary to see my name on legal documents and have to go to court. And IMO my attny was AWESOME! The entire thing just really twists your mind around.
Then I started to wonder if my H was being nice because of the legal stuff or not and everything you think is normal isn't. It's all just f'ing crazy.
And it's fine for people to say "take a step back or take your time" but sometimes the law does not allow for that. The pressure I felt was insane. Just thinking about it all makes my chest tight.
I can't say either way what you should be doing next but I just wanted to let you know I do understand what a difficult position you are in.
Hi CityGirl. The legal side of this thing is awful. Everything you say or do can be used against you by the other side. So, it's hard to do anything 'good' under these circumstances.
Absolutely. Once her sttorney saw what was at stake (assets) he started 'churning' big time! Crap has happened that I never thought I'd see from her! And it continues. The legal system is hugely adversarial, and it absolutelY pits her against me and vice versa.
Yeah, it's awful. Can't even communicate at all without considering whether or not she'll try to use it against me.
It frightens me too. I don't like it at all. I've never been in trouble either. Now we've got lawyers, a judge, a GAL, and God knows who else will get involved. I had to make a list of witnesses too. I think my attorney is good (she has a reputation for being a fierce litigator), but damn...I didn't want any of this crap, and I doubt she did either...AT LEAST TO THIS DEGREE!
It is crazy. It's become a war of attrition!
I feel like I'm under a tremendous amount of pressure. Decisions are being made by strangers that's going to affect me adversely, and for the rest of my life.
I appreciate you sharing with me. It sucks. I don't know what the hell to do...I wish it'd just stop! It is a truly difficult position.
Antlers I wished so much that I could honestly give you a lot of hope of saving this M, but I think your W has too many encouraging her to follow through with the D procedures. Think about who will gain "anything" from this (or who has hard feelings toward you) and you'll have an idea what she's up against. I have a feeling that her lawyer has already warned her that you might try to sweet-talk your way out of this. When you told her that you still loved her (and I'm not saying you shouldn't have....but just saying what she may have thought) then she already had that seed of doubt planted in her mind.
When she finally decided to leave the M, she was so angry & hurt...and she obviously is still very angry. I would not doubt that she doesn't have help keeping her anger stirred up. How long will it be until the D will be final?
I believe the anger is what fuels her energy and if she didn't have that, she would probably fear she couldn't go through with it. But anytime she should bring up the subject of your feelings for her, I think you should stick to the truth....that you do love her still, but that you don't expect anything from her. You can still choose to love her, right? And....you told her this after you had told her that you wanted 50% custody of the kids, so that statement doesn't appear to be out of spite over her not responding favorably to the ILY.
When it comes to our children, it will stir our emotions like nothing else. If she thinks you have told the kids anything that contradicts her or is negative about her, she is going to react almost violently about it. But, you know, they could have said something about what you "might" have thought or said and she took to be something you actually "did" tell somebody and perhaps that is where she's getting "those lies you told". IDK, just a thought, and it may be a long time before she will believe the truth.
I am glad that you followed Coach's advice and told her that you still loved her b/c you will always know that you told her again, and if the kids ever ask....you can tell them what you said to her. Wished I could talk as positive as Coach does! I'm just concerned that she will not be able to turn lose of so much anger until after the D. Hopefully she can begin to heal and won't subbornly hang on to this unhealthy anger.
I suppose the girls are still in their mother's corner. I think I might have told you this some time ago, but some day they will see the man you've become and they will make their own decisions about how they want to feel toward you. I have had to wait for two people reach adulthood before they finally knew the truth about something that happened in their lives.....so that time comes, but it takes patience.
Whenever you text your W about legal things, I believe you need to show as little emotion as possible, but I am sure I would have said almost the same as you did about custody of the kids. Like I said, who cannot get emotional about that? But from now on, she will realize that you are not afraid of her reactions and that you will fight for you children.
I am not much help, but I'm here for you. I really hope all the best in the world for you, Antlers. I think you have done a wonderful job in turning yourself around. Some lucky lady will appreciate that some day! Your children will also.
But anytime she should bring up the subject of your feelings for her, I think you should stick to the truth....that you do love her still, but that you don't expect anything from her.
Well, she brought it up...she said she had to call BS on that! What should I say? Should I say "I did and I do love you still, but I don't expect anything from you." ?
ps - thank you sandi for coming to see me when I asked for your help. I really take the stuff you say to heart.
Well, she brought it up...she said she had to call BS on that! What should I say? Should I say "I did and I do love you still, but I don't expect anything from you." ?
No, I wouldn't argue with her....and that is what it would lead to. I mostly meant
later if she brought it up like she did before, that you could remind her that you told her or that you do still love her. If she reacts in such a negative way, then about the best thing to say would be, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and let it drop. I meant that you don't need to expect anything from her or to even say ILY in a way that might
hint that you expected anything positive in return. You may or may not have another time to tell her, but if you do...that was my suggestion.
It must be very hard when somebody is saying that it is BS that you ever loved them. I don't think I would say it again unless you felt the time was right. I do think it was right to tell her when Coach suggested it b/c of the reasons I gave before. You may or may not have a "right" time again, but I wouldn't change that statement regardless of how angry she got. You love her, and are sorry she feels the way she does. Those are the facts.
Should I wait a couple of days and say simply "I'm sorry you feel that way."?
It is a response. It's standing up against what she said without arguing, it's not getting defensive, it's validating and supporting her feelings, it's calling her on mind-reading...all while remaining in control of myself.
It is hard when she says that it's BS that I ever loved her.
Or "I did and do love you still, and am sorry that you feel the way you do."?
It is hard when she says that it's BS that I ever loved her.
That's the TEST!!!! She really wants to know that you love
her. Change the medium, write a note.
"I understand why you feel I never loved you. I am truly sorry you feel that way. I regret that I didn't know how to show in the right ways for you. Given the opportunity for a second chance I would make sure I do things better for you and my family. I know what is in my heart and I do love you."
- Antlers
I don't see anything in there that is ambiguous or hurts your legal case.
Cheers
Thank You Coach. It perfectly describes the way I feel. I will use it...without expectations.
ps - I appreciate you, always have.
That is good stuff Ant, and remember your last statement. No Expectations.
Put the note on her windshield at work.
Make sure you are praying for her everyday.
In my mind I wasn't going to give up hope until the D was final. I agree it is hard to DB when there are lawyers involved. It also helped focus my energy.
Antlers I wished so much that I could honestly give you a lot of hope of saving this M, but I think your W has too many encouraging her to follow through with the D procedures. Think about who will gain "anything" from this (or who has hard feelings toward you) and you'll have an idea what she's up against. I have a feeling that her lawyer has already warned her that you might try to sweet-talk your way out of this. When you told her that you still loved her (and I'm not saying you shouldn't have....but just saying what she may have thought) then she already had that seed of doubt planted in her mind.
"She is dead-set on it....that's for sure. She was that way before she ever went to see her lawyer. Her initial filing was simple, and my lawyer said it looked like she just wanted out and didn't want anything complicated. I believe that her lawyer started 'churning' the minute he saw my discovery paperwork and saw the assets involved. Now things have gotten awfully nasty, even a custody battle."
When she finally decided to leave the M, she was so angry & hurt...and she obviously is still very angry. I would not doubt that she doesn't have help keeping her anger stirred up. How long will it be until the D will be final?
"Yeah, she's still pissed! Now the divorce has turned into a war of attrition. Our next appearance before the court is scheduled sometime in May. That could change though depending on any new filings."
I believe the anger is what fuels her energy and if she didn't have that, she would probably fear she couldn't go through with it. But anytime she should bring up the subject of your feelings for her, I think you should stick to the truth....that you do love her still, but that you don't expect anything from her. You can still choose to love her, right? And....you told her this after you had told her that you wanted 50% custody of the kids, so that statement doesn't appear to be out of spite over her not responding favorably to the ILY.
"I think she uses the anger too. I will stick to that truth. I told her that after she changed her filing to a request for sole custody! I let her know that I will fight that."
When it comes to our children, it will stir our emotions like nothing else. If she thinks you have told the kids anything that contradicts her or is negative about her, she is going to react almost violently about it. But, you know, they could have said something about what you "might" have thought or said and she took to be something you actually "did" tell somebody and perhaps that is where she's getting "those lies you told". IDK, just a thought, and it may be a long time before she will believe the truth.
"Well she has told the kids plenty of negative stuff about me...she has drilled it into them; she wants them to think the way she does about this. She doesn't want to feel bad about any of the decisions she's made. In a thing like this, going on for over a year now, things get said by both sides because of hurt, anger, etc.. I'm not saying it's a good thing, because it's not...it just is that way."
I am glad that you followed Coach's advice and told her that you still loved her b/c you will always know that you told her again, and if the kids ever ask....you can tell them what you said to her. Wished I could talk as positive as Coach does! I'm just concerned that she will not be able to turn lose of so much anger until after the D. Hopefully she can begin to heal and won't subbornly hang on to this unhealthy anger.
"I'm glad too. Agreed sandi. She's hanging onto it, and she draws it like a gun!"
I suppose the girls are still in their mother's corner. I think I might have told you this some time ago, but some day they will see the man you've become and they will make their own decisions about how they want to feel toward you. I have had to wait for two people reach adulthood before they finally knew the truth about something that happened in their lives.....so that time comes, but it takes patience.
"Yeah, the girls are hugely supportive of their mother. I hope you're right about 'someday'. Sure does hurt!"
Whenever you text your W about legal things, I believe you need to show as little emotion as possible, but I am sure I would have said almost the same as you did about custody of the kids. Like I said, who cannot get emotional about that? But from now on, she will realize that you are not afraid of her reactions and that you will fight for you children.
"My lawyer tells me the same thing. She says I need to look at it like the dissolving of a business. Easy to say, hard to do! She has told me several times about leaving emotions out of it. I have told my kids mom that I would spend my last dime and my last breath thrying to keep her from taking the kids away from me."
I am not much help, but I'm here for you. I really hope all the best in the world for you, Antlers. I think you have done a wonderful job in turning yourself around. Some lucky lady will appreciate that some day! Your children will also.
"You are a big help sandi. I know you're here and that means a lot! Thank you for your kind thoughts and wishes. I am proud of what I've accomplished with myself. I hope so!"
Went to see the GAL for the first time 2 days ago and spent a lot of time talking with her. She and I will be talking, I suppose, several times in the near future. She'll be talking with my kids, in both my home and their mothers home, and she'll be talking with my kids mother also. She'll also be talking with people that my witnesses and the opposing sides witnesses. I feel like the initial meeting went OK.
It's scary to me. I've never been in trouble. Now I'm having to deal with lawyers, judges, courts, investigative attorneys, and seeing my name on legal documents. It's intimidating, and makes me uncomfortable.
This has become a war, a war of attrition, a war that I never wanted. I would say it's a war that nobody wins, but she stands to gain a significant amount of money. My children are innocent victims, casualties. I will be a casualty also.
I disagree with calling yourself and the kids casualties of this sitch. It's not the end of the world. Hurts, sucks, bites.. yes, yes, yes! But you can/will overcome this and come out stronger. I believe your kids can as well. It's up to you. Focus on what you can do...
Show the GAL how you care for your children, positive chances for yourself and the kids... but show, don't tell.
Antlers,
I can hear you are really sad & frustrated with the fact that your marriage is over & the ending of it appears to be an all out war.
War has casualties, it also has survivors.
Try reframing this
My children are innocent victims, casualities. I will be a casualty also.
to this
My children are innocent of causing this war. I own my part in causing it and trying to prevent it. Regardless, we will all be survivors.
I copied this off another DB'er's thread yesterday because it spoke to me at a time I was looking for hope.
I share it with you to hopefully pass some along to you
RosesIts madness to hate all roses because you got scratched with one thorn..
To give up on your dreams because one didn’t come true...
To lose faith in prayers because one was not answered...
To give up on your efforts because one of them failed…
To condemn all of your friends because one betrayed you…
To not believe in love because someone was unfaithful or didn’t love you back…
To throw away all of your chances to be happy because you did not succeed on the first attempt.
A new friend, a new love, a new life… never give up because life is indeed beautiful.
=====
You can handle it.
Peace
Bridge
I disagree with calling yourself and the kids casualties of this sitch. It's not the end of the world. Hurts, sucks, bites.. yes, yes, yes! But you can/will overcome this and come out stronger. I believe your kids can as well. It's up to you. Focus on what you can do...
Show the GAL how you care for your children, positive chances for yourself and the kids... but show, don't tell.
Casualties doesn't mean 'killed'...it also includes 'wounded', and that was what I meant. I know we'll all go on. I regret that it came to this though.
I have to 'talk' to the GAL quite a bit. She's gonna come to the house too when the kids are there. There is a lot of 'talking' involved, but I know what you mean.
I'd like to get some help from you folks. My son spent the night with me last night when he was supposed to be with his mom. I assume she had something else to do because our daughter went skating, and she brought our son to me on her night. Anyway, this morning he asked me to take him to his grandmothers house instead of his moms on my way to work. Grandma lives less than a mile from his mom. So I did. He said he's text his mom.
She texted me this morning at work..."where is son? He said you would bring him over here on your way to work."
I texted back "That's what I was gonna do. He asked me to take him to his grandmothers. He said he'd text you."
So I get this back from her..."you need to communicate to me about these kids like I do you and not through them. Don't you realize this was one reason for the failure of our marriage...the way you communicated. If it's my time to have them and I'm willing to let them stay with you then you need to bring them here and not take them somewhere else. That's working together. If you're not willing to do that then neither will I. Your choice."
So, there's at least been some dialogue recently. Coach and others have helped me with some of this dialogue. I have no expectations. I just want to respond with validation, strength, and compassion, etc.. I need some help responding to this last text of hers.
thanks
"OK.. you are absolutely right, we should be communicating directly with each other about the kids & not through them. I'm sorry about not doing it this morning. I will do my best to communicate with you about them, not through them, in the future. I can understand why you'd be frustrated and see this as the same old same old from me."
"OK.. you are absolutely right, we should be communicating directly with each other about the kids & not through them. I'm sorry about not doing it this morning. I will do my best to communicate with you about them, not through them, in the future. I can understand why you'd be frustrated and see this as the same old same old from me."
Hi Bridge. Thank You. The communication problems we had in our marriage weren't because I communicated through our kids. So it's really not the "same old same old from me". I like your response. Could you maybe help me do something other than that last sentence?
I can understand why you'd be frustrated since we did not communicate well in the past.
That sounds great to me. Thank You.
Antlers,
I can hear you are really sad & frustrated with the fact that your marriage is over & the ending of it appears to be an all out war.
"YEAH, I AM SAD ABOUT IT. YEP, IT HAS BECOME A WAR...A WAR OF ATTRITION."
War has casualties, it also has survivors.
"I KNOW. WE'LL SURVIVE THIS. I JUST HATE IT THAT I DIDN'T MAKE MY CHANGES IN TIME."
Try reframing this
My children are innocent victims, casualities. I will be a casualty also.
to this
My children are innocent of causing this war. I own my part in causing it and trying to prevent it. Regardless, we will all be survivors.
"I DO OWN MY PART IN CAUSING IT AND TRYING TO PREVENT IT."
I copied this off another DB'er's thread yesterday because it spoke to me at a time I was looking for hope.
I share it with you to hopefully pass some along to you
RosesIts madness to hate all roses because you got scratched with one thorn..
To give up on your dreams because one didn’t come true...
To lose faith in prayers because one was not answered...
To give up on your efforts because one of them failed…
To condemn all of your friends because one betrayed you…
To not believe in love because someone was unfaithful or didn’t love you back…
To throw away all of your chances to be happy because you did not succeed on the first attempt.
A new friend, a new love, a new life… never give up because life is indeed beautiful.
"I KNOW. I CAN'T DENY THE FACT THAT I STILL FEEL THE WAY I DO ABOUT HER THOUGH. I FEEL BAD FOR HAVING MESSED UP LIKE I DID. I FEEL GREAT FOR MAKING THE CHANGES THAT I DID. WISH I HAD MADE THEM SOONER."
=====
You can handle it.
Peace
Bridge
I need some help.
My neice communicates some with my kids mom. She's a young 24 y/o. She feels like I get mad at her for doing so. She has communicated this to my kids mom. I get a nastygram after midnight tonight from my kids mom telling me that my neice told her this, and then she throws it up in my face, word for word, the texts that I've been sending her recently (with help from you all) telling her that I still care for her...and finishes it by saying "you love me, huh? Is that why neice is not "allowed" to talk to me since you will get pissed at her if she does? If that's how you love then I'd hate to see how you dislike. Wait...I already have."
I've felt good about the texts that I've sent her recently...she's referred to them several times during subsequent communication with me. I'd like to negate the negativity communicated to her from my neice without going into detail, and still reiterate my feelings for her in a way that would be compassionate and honest, but without seeming weak and pursuing.
Could you folks please help?
Stop involving your niece, DB her.
Throw truth darts. What did you really say to your niece? What could be construed as controlling? Your wife is projecting some, she is controlling you. Your STBX is still filling in the blanks (mindreading.) She's playing the victim here, remind her she has a choice that she can talk to whoever she wants.
I would say the text messages must be a 180 if she is commenting on them that much & has them memorized... they have caught her attention.
She's testing you.. she's watching you...looking for 'old antlers'..
She's pushing your buttons...seeing what you will do... what will be your choice?
I agree with Coach on the niece.. what could be possibly remotely be construed as 'controlling' from your end?
Clear it up with the niece ASAP, validate her feelings of "she feels I get mad at her if she talks to my kids mom..."
.. show your empathy & changes to bothbecuase obviously what is shared with the niece makes it back to the StBXW
You can handle this.
Bridge
I will add something here
I fully admit, when I started seeing some of my StBXH changes over a year ago when he got some serious counseling..
I had very very mixed feelings.. relief, fustration, fear, but a LOT of anger.
Logically I wanted him to make those changes and for himself, not just out of compliance and I tried really hard to be supportive of his efforts, encouraging of his changes, empathetic to the emotional carnage IC does in it's first few sessions.
But emotionally, watching him making those changes after YEARS of me asking in direct & not so direct ways to stop the destructive actions and pleading for changes... the resentment I felt was overwhelming at times & I know at times, it came out as anger...
In statements like "oh wait.. I know what's that's like", lots of sarcasm
in tests of his changes.. by baiting him & pushing his buttons
in stonewalling his requests for communication because of my fear of his not being able to handle hearing what I had to say
I'm not excusing my behaviour, it was not pretty at times.. I tried my best to work through my anger in other ways, but it would come through in a ways I stated above. Even when he didn't deserve it and really was 'different' I know I was testing.
Just something to think about.
To Coach and Bridge. First, thank you both! Second, How can I respond to my kids mom? It has to be by text because that is the only avenue of communication between us.
What can I say to her?
How about you try it out what you've been learning about communicating with her, here first.. type something up..
we'll (or at least me- I won't speak for Coach or others) take a whack at it.
Hey Ant, just passing through and wishing you luck, I can't offer any advice on what to do, but you are doing well, and Bridge and Coach are giving you some outstanding advice.
I am hoping you make progress, and also learn from what they are telling you (I know I am, in just following along) and incorporate that learning into the new Ant.
Kudo's to you both Bridge and Coach for looking in on Ant, he is worth it!
How about you try it out what you've been learning about communicating with her, here first.. type something up..
we'll (or at least me- I won't speak for Coach or others) take a whack at it.
"Making assumptions can lead to a lot of misunderstandings and a lot of difficulties. I'm sorry about doing that at times. Don't make the assumption that you know what I think. You can talk to whoever you want. And I'll do my best to not make assumptions about you. I understand why you'd be upset since so many assumptions have been made along the way."
Well?
I'd like to also mention again to her that I care for her and my family deeply but I don't know what to say (or even if I should)!
Antlers..
I THINK
she's asking you (in a woman's way) to address
"you love me, huh? If that's how you love then I'd hate to see how you dislike. Wait...I already have."
not
Is that why neice is not "allowed" to talk to me since you will get pissed at her if she does?
Antlers..
I THINK
she's asking you (in a woman's way) to address
"you love me, huh? If that's how you love then I'd hate to see how you dislike. Wait...I already have."
not
Is that why neice is not "allowed" to talk to me since you will get pissed at her if she does?
OK Bridge. I'll work on THAT! Thanks. I'll run it by here too, first!
I agree with Bridge.
she's asking you (in a woman's way) to address
Originally Posted By: mrs. antlers
"you love me, huh? If that's how you love then I'd hate to see how you dislike. Wait...I already have."
Woman's way: Questions are statements, statements are questions.
She's testing you. "You love me, huh?" (statement- she knows it) "Wait I already have." (Question????? this is what she wants you to address. She wants to see/hear/feel you validate this love.)
How can you bridge the gap from her perception to your reality? Look at your sitch like you are watching from outside a fish bowl looking in on it.
Antlers..
I THINK
she's asking you (in a woman's way) to address
"you love me, huh? If that's how you love then I'd hate to see how you dislike. Wait...I already have."
not
Is that why neice is not "allowed" to talk to me since you will get pissed at her if she does?
OK Bridge. I'll work on THAT! Thanks. I'll run it by here too, first!
"I can see how you would think I never loved you. I hate it that you feel that way. Making assumptions can lead to a lot of misunderstandings and a lot of difficulties. I'm sorry that I did that at times. Don't make the assumption that you know what I think or feel. And I'll do my best to not make assumptions about you. I care deeply for you and our kids."
ps - Well?
I wanted to mention again to her that I care for her and my family deeply but I don't know what to say (or even if I should)!
I think you need to address the neice issue in some say.
Do you know why your niece might say that you get mad at her for talking with your ex? Any truth to that?
Coach, Bridge, others...
"I can see how you would think I never loved you. I hate it that you feel that way. Making assumptions can lead to a lot of misunderstandings and a lot of difficulties. I'm sorry that I did that at times. Don't make the assumption that you know what I think or feel. And I'll do my best to not make assumptions about you. I care deeply for you and our kids."
ps - Well?
I wanted to mention again to her that I care for her and my family deeply but I don't know what to say!
Hey Ant,
Don't make the assumption that you know what I think or feel.
I just don't like that sentence in the context of your reply, it just seems to me that will put her immediately in a defensive position vs the rest of your reply.
However, I completely suck at communicating with Venusians, so I would defer to pretty much everyone else on your threads opinion first...
Hi IWITW.
"I can see how you would think I never loved you. I hate it that you feel that way. Making assumptions can lead to a lot of misunderstandings and a lot of difficulties. I'm sorry that I did that at times. I'll do my best to not make assumptions about you. I know my heart and I do love you and my family."
Better? Feedback from all would be appreciated.
Hey Ant-Buddy..
*hugs*
Here's a different spin.
Step out of the
emotional triangle between you, your niece and the kids' mom. At issue is your attitude/relationship with your niece. Deal with that. Take accountability. It's a minefield for most folks, even worse for young adults.
Family members by marriage can be casualties during a divorce process. Cousins deserve to remain cousins. As my 25 year old niece on my former spouse's side recently told me, "It's always been Uncle Bill and Aunt Kathleen. I couldn't let Uncle Bill take away MY Aunt Kathleen."
So.. this isn't about explaining yourself to the kids' mom because that's not what is at issue. It's about keeping a direct line of communication open with your niece. Cuz anything you say to the kids' mom based on her text puts you on the defensive.
Communication works when it's a straight line, the proverbial straight from the horse's mouth. Otherwise what you get is straight from the horse's other opening.
My advice about the text from your kids' mom. Work with your niece. Address her fears and insecurity because it is scary loving folks enough to walk in the middle of a war zone.
Leave the 'bait' behind. Keep Coach's "Questions are answers and answers are questions." in the back of your mind. And.. is a reply really warranted when actions speak louder than words? At most, "thanks for the head's up. I'm so happy our niece is maintaining contact with the kids."
Remember... straight lines. Just a thought.
*hugs*
Hi Gypsy.
I do feel like a reply is warranted. Bridge says she wants me to address her statement of "you love me, huh? If that's how you love, I'd hate to see how you dislike...wait, I already have." Coach says the same.
That's what I'm trying to do. I don't wanna mess up. So, I appreciate all feedback that I get, especially yours.
I initially worked up a reply to the neice thing and posted it here, but Bridge and Coach steered me in a different direction based upon what they thought she wanted me to address.
I adjusted some wording, but this is more for me to learn as well, so don't necessarily change what you have, based on what I put. You know your stbxw, family, and yourself..
"I can see and understand how you would think I never loved you. I hate it that you feel that way. Making assumptions can lead to a lot of misunderstandings and a lot of difficulties. I am sorry that I did that at times. I will do my best to not make assumptions about you. I know in my heart that I do love you and my family."
However, I do like what you have written, it is compassionate, validates how she feels or felt, doesn't offer to 'fix' anything of hers, nor blames yourself for everything that is wrong.
I feel communicating in this way may take some of her anger out by simply agreeing with what she is saying.
On the issue with your Niece, I still believe that you need to address that as well with her, but feel that could be separate, if you reply to your stbxw with what your doing with niece to 'fix' it, it could just be seen as an excuse, or you defending yourself, etc.
Again, take my advice with a grain of salt, as I am clearly not good at this, given the sitch I am in right now...
True..
It's like taking care of things in their order. It's nice that the niece thing may have provided an opening.
The separation process is emotionally chaotic. Communication skills that were weak usually don't get better.
I guess it's like jumping from the smoke to the fire. Take care of the smoke first.. the niece. She's doing yeoman service trying to maintain contact with everyone. Your wife's text was in reaction to the conflict the niece felt.
The calmer your niece is, the manner in which you allay her concerns will directly impact how she communicates with your wife. And you. And the kids. Actions.
Your wife is the fire. She can go any direction. Know yours. Any text to her should take ten words or less.
Otherwise you're reacting to your wife. Not addressing concerns. And in emotional triangles, who ever tries to save the other gets bitten in the ass.
Straight lines of communication.
Actions speak louder than words.
Become the best you're meant to be.
*hugs*
Theoretical text..
I screwed up. You, the kids are everything to me.
Heck... maybe three words are enough.
*hugs*
However, I do like what you have written, it is compassionate, validates how she feels or felt, doesn't offer to 'fix' anything of hers, nor blames yourself for everything that is wrong.
That's my intention. I also like Gypsy's sentence of "you and the kids are everything to me."
I also like Gypsy's sentence of "you and the kids are everything to me."
I like it, but not necessarily for where you and stbxw are right now.
I feel that puts to much pressure on your stbxw to be your 'everything' when you are in the process of D. I like your original txt on it, as it still tells how you feel about her, without putting any requirement or pressure on her to change the way she feels, or validate how you feel, etc.
Makes sense. Thanks. It's great to have others help us on things like this.
I like the 2nd version with IWITW's pieces. I think the "the you are everythin to me" .. is too over the top for her to hear now.
I think the niece & the 'love me???" texts need to be 2 different ones.. with the initial text telling her that.
EX: "I will be sending 2 more texts to address the two issues I hear you having concerns about."
Keep them separate.. accept responsibility.. show her the difference you have made.
I like how you did most of the writing yourself.. it sounds like "you"
Stop involving your niece, DB her.
Throw truth darts. What did you really say to your niece? What could be construed as controlling? Your wife is projecting some, she is controlling you. Your STBX is still filling in the blanks (mindreading.) She's playing the victim here, remind her she has a choice that she can talk to whoever she wants.
W's parents communicated with me regularly for 8 months during the separation. Once she filed for divorce, they dropped me like a dirty shirt. No communication at all since then. It did hurt my feelings that my neice still was 'friendly' with my W, especially since now she is trying to take the kids away from me. I communicated this to my neice.
I want my W to know that I still care, regardless of her projection that I didn't and don't!
I would say the text messages must be a 180 if she is commenting on them that much & has them memorized... they have caught her attention.
She's testing you.. she's watching you...looking for 'old antlers'..
She's pushing your buttons...seeing what you will do... what will be your choice?
I agree with Coach on the niece.. what could be possibly remotely be construed as 'controlling' from your end?
Clear it up with the niece ASAP, validate her feelings of "she feels I get mad at her if she talks to my kids mom..."
.. show your empathy & changes to bothbecuase obviously what is shared with the niece makes it back to the StBXW
You can handle this.
Bridge
I really am different about things than I was all the years we were together. She said in the past my changes were too late...she said she cared about me, but I'd already pushed her over the edge before I started making changes.
I will add something here
I fully admit, when I started seeing some of my StBXH changes over a year ago when he got some serious counseling..
I had very very mixed feelings.. relief, fustration, fear, but a LOT of anger.
Logically I wanted him to make those changes and for himself, not just out of compliance and I tried really hard to be supportive of his efforts, encouraging of his changes, empathetic to the emotional carnage IC does in it's first few sessions.
But emotionally, watching him making those changes after YEARS of me asking in direct & not so direct ways to stop the destructive actions and pleading for changes... the resentment I felt was overwhelming at times & I know at times, it came out as anger...
In statements like "oh wait.. I know what's that's like", lots of sarcasm
in tests of his changes.. by baiting him & pushing his buttons
in stonewalling his requests for communication because of my fear of his not being able to handle hearing what I had to say
I'm not excusing my behaviour, it was not pretty at times.. I tried my best to work through my anger in other ways, but it would come through in a ways I stated above. Even when he didn't deserve it and really was 'different' I know I was testing.
Just something to think about.
Yeah, I think she had/has those feelings too. Then again, she may be simply 'done'. I did make the changes for me, because it needed to be done. She still has TONS of anger and resentment.
Hey Ant, just passing through and wishing you luck, I can't offer any advice on what to do, but you are doing well, and Bridge and Coach are giving you some outstanding advice.
I am hoping you make progress, and also learn from what they are telling you (I know I am, in just following along) and incorporate that learning into the new Ant.
Kudo's to you both Bridge and Coach for looking in on Ant, he is worth it!
Hi IWITW.
Thanks for being here. Your input sure helps me. I'm glad that you're learning here too. Bridge and Coach help many here. Thanks for the pat on the back man!
It did hurt my feelings that my neice still was 'friendly' with my W, especially since now she is trying to take the kids away from me. I communicated this to my neice.
I want my W to know that I still care, regardless of her projection that I didn't and don't!
Maybe what your W is saying, (in a sarcastic way) is that whatever you may
feel for her, that your
actions, which could be construed as not wanting niece to be in contact with her, are not loving actions. If you 'love' her, how could you try to drive a wedge between her and people important to her?
I agree with Bridge.
she's asking you (in a woman's way) to address
Originally Posted By: mrs. antlers
"you love me, huh? If that's how you love then I'd hate to see how you dislike. Wait...I already have."
Woman's way: Questions are statements, statements are questions.
She's testing you. "You love me, huh?" (statement- she knows it) "Wait I already have." (Question????? this is what she wants you to address. She wants to see/hear/feel you validate this love.)
How can you bridge the gap from her perception to your reality? Look at your sitch like you are watching from outside a fish bowl looking in on it.
I'll remember "questions are statements, statements are questions." Thanks.
Is she testing me, or just being sarcastic?
By communicating like I'm trying to do.
I think you need to address the neice issue in some say.
Do you know why your niece might say that you get mad at her for talking with your ex? Any truth to that?
I've been talking with my niece.
Yeah, I posted it earlier.
I adjusted some wording, but this is more for me to learn as well, so don't necessarily change what you have, based on what I put. You know your stbxw, family, and yourself..
"I can see and understand how you would think I never loved you. I hate it that you feel that way. Making assumptions can lead to a lot of misunderstandings and a lot of difficulties. I am sorry that I did that at times. I will do my best to not make assumptions about you. I know in my heart that I do love you and my family."
However, I do like what you have written, it is compassionate, validates how she feels or felt, doesn't offer to 'fix' anything of hers, nor blames yourself for everything that is wrong.
I feel communicating in this way may take some of her anger out by simply agreeing with what she is saying.
On the issue with your Niece, I still believe that you need to address that as well with her, but feel that could be separate, if you reply to your stbxw with what your doing with niece to 'fix' it, it could just be seen as an excuse, or you defending yourself, etc.
Again, take my advice with a grain of salt, as I am clearly not good at this, given the sitch I am in right now...
Thanks man. Bridge liked how you changed some words around. I do too. I also agree with what you said about keeping it separate.
True..
It's like taking care of things in their order. It's nice that the niece thing may have provided an opening.
The separation process is emotionally chaotic. Communication skills that were weak usually don't get better.
I guess it's like jumping from the smoke to the fire. Take care of the smoke first.. the niece. She's doing yeoman service trying to maintain contact with everyone. Your wife's text was in reaction to the conflict the niece felt.
The calmer your niece is, the manner in which you allay her concerns will directly impact how she communicates with your wife. And you. And the kids. Actions.
Your wife is the fire. She can go any direction. Know yours. Any text to her should take ten words or less.
Otherwise you're reacting to your wife. Not addressing concerns. And in emotional triangles, who ever tries to save the other gets bitten in the ass.
Straight lines of communication.
Actions speak louder than words.
Become the best you're meant to be.
*hugs*
Your insight is so helpful...thanks. I feel like my communication skills have improved a lot over the last year. I don't want to 'react'.
I know that actions speak louder than words. But under our circumstances, words can be important too.
I like the 2nd version with IWITW's pieces. I think the "the you are everythin to me" .. is too over the top for her to hear now.
I think the niece & the 'love me???" texts need to be 2 different ones.. with the initial text telling her that.
EX: "I will be sending 2 more texts to address the two issues I hear you having concerns about."
Keep them separate.. accept responsibility.. show her the difference you have made.
I like how you did most of the writing yourself.. it sounds like "you"
I do too. Thank you for your help so far. I hope I can be helpful to you too at times. Really, I do appreciate your 'special' insight...knowing what you have shared with me so far about your own situation.
It did hurt my feelings that my neice still was 'friendly' with my W, especially since now she is trying to take the kids away from me. I communicated this to my neice.
I want my W to know that I still care, regardless of her projection that I didn't and don't!
Maybe what your W is saying, (in a sarcastic way) is that whatever you may
feel for her, that your
actions, which could be construed as not wanting niece to be in contact with her, are not loving actions. If you 'love' her, how could you try to drive a wedge between her and people important to her?
I agree. I feel like she's doing just that. My niece isn't important to her though, and hasn't been for years! There are so many emotions on both sides in a deal like this...W doesn't want to feel like the 'bad guy' at all for doing what she's done, and she'll reach out to anyone to justify her feelings, even if it's to someone who mattered little to her before. Anyway, my feelings were hurt for the reasons I posted earlier to Coach. My W put her foot down and got her parents to stop communicating with me after she filed for divorce. Before that, they communicated with me regularly during the separation. Things like this happen in situations such as these. It's not good, but they do. But she should know that I still care for her even though my feelings were hurt by their communication (niece and hers).
Hey Ant, it's been a couple days, just wondering how things are going lately with you.
Hi IWITW.
Things are going OK. Had the kids for the weekend and now I'm back to work today. I'm trying to keep the legal side of this divorce separate from the other aspects of it; smart people here have mentioned on this board that they really are separate...so I'm trying to keep them separate. The lagal side is a real b!tch though, and it hurts...bad. Anyway, she knows how I feel and I know how she feels.
Met with the GAL week before last...haven't heard anything else yet.
I'm gonna get my a$$ kicked financially in this thing. Not much I can do about it but take it on the chin. Gotta go on though. I built our retirement account up singlehandedly over the years to over 6 figures, got a lot of equity in the house, got a lot of belongings that she left behind in the house (furniture, etc.) and said she didn't want any of it...now she wants "half" of everything, even my firearms!
I paid for her college aducation.
Spilt milk now.
It hurts though, that it's come to this.
You asked! :-)
ps - thanks for checking on me. How are you man?
Hey Ant..
When you're a couple sharing is the norm. Paying for college, saving for retirement are just normal things you do reflect responsibility and an eye to the future. It's being a couple, pulling together.
I became a stay at home mom, leaving my career to tend to a sick toddler and the former spouse's episodic mental breakdowns. We talked it over. I viewed it as a long term commitment to marriage. That the risk I was taking in not building a career was nullified by our belief in always being at each other's side, working together. Ooops.
Now he is an angry man who's upset at the 'salary' he has to pay me and I'm all wobbly in entering the job force, at potentially minimum wage earnings.
Entitlement raises it's greedy head during divorce where what was done lovingly is wrenched into purely monetary value.
What I learned is stuff is stuff. You negotiate, keeping what is 'yours', giving her more more of other things. But in the end emotional drama is more expensive and taxing than what is demanded. Although it may hurt, things can be replaced. But peace of mind is priceless.
Go Zen, baby. That will pull the wick out of her candle.
*hugs*
Entitlement raises it's greedy head during divorce where what was done lovingly is wrenched into purely monetary value.
Hi Gyps.
That's why it hurts so bad...because I did all of it lovingly.
Go Zen, baby. That will pull the wick out of her candle.
Please explain?
Ant, I can relate to what you talking about. Somehow we must endure.
I believe what Gypsy is saying is, trying not to let the financial burden change who we are, and that we can can overcome it.
I am having a tough time today accepting that myself....
IWITW,
It's stressful enough as it is, but with the added difficulties of this crap that shouldn't be happening it makes it even worse, but in a different way. This crap that's going on now is just wrong and unfair...not to mention costly. Still incredible anger on her part. Everything that I've worked for and built up over the years for US is now being assigned a monetary value, and her attorney is 'churning' because of the assets involved.
I hear you ant, and I am in exactly the same spot, her lawyer wants alimony, child support, me to pay for her housing, and utility bills, and then divide half of what is left of 'assets' and leave me holding the debt and bad investments. You can see I know where you are coming from. Anger is a natural reaction, and I have more than my share of it right now and trying to find a way to handle it. How we handle it is important. It seems completely unfair and it may well be, but ultimatley the courts will decide, the lawyers will get richer and there is not much we can do about it. I know I am supposed to be compasionate but I can't find it in me right now and that is something I had thought would never happen.
While this sounds childish I think what I struggled with the most (and still do to an extent) is how "dictated to" I felt. I was told what was going to happen and that was that and I just had to follow along like it or not. Then you start piling on the financial crap and it just becomes maddening ON TOP of being painful.
It is very frustrating when considerable assets are at stake that took many, many years to build. It's not as if we happen to find somebody passing out money and that is how our assets came to be. We worked and saved for all of this and for me that is the hard part I guess.
A while back I was at the copy center for what seemed like the 100th time and I just felt like screaming. If I looked at one more statement, one more insurance booklet, one more ANYTHING I felt like I would just lose my mind.
I wish I had a magic remedy for you. All I can say is what I tell myself each day... "keep plugging along".
IWITW and CityGirl...I understand the frustration and the pain. I myself have been put into a position where I'm having to do things that are against my core values in order to protect myself and my ability to provide for my kids. I spent my life building up what we had, as far as assets go, and now I'm being financially torched. I'm really working hard at not taking things personally, not making assumptions, and doing my best.
I'm ready for the weather here to get consistently better so I can get back outside on a regular basis and ride.
Finally got a break in the weather today and I took a 60 mile bicycle ride after I took the kids to school this morning. Guess what I thought about the whole time I was out there? NUTHIN'! It was so nice to get a reprieve from all this bad crap I've been having to deal with on a daily basis. I just enjoyed being outside, the sun on my back, and movin' on down the road! Medicinal it was.
Good for you Ant, working out is sometimes the best thing, and I plan on another workout tonight, relieve some stress..
It seems weird that thinking about NOTHING is so nice at times..
SIXTY MILES? I would be dead!!!!!!!!
That is awesome! Glad you enjoyed it!
Good for you Ant, working out is sometimes the best thing, and I plan on another workout tonight, relieve some stress..
It seems weird that thinking about NOTHING is so nice at times..
Yep, it's a good thing. Nothing like bathing your gray matter in a bunch of fresh endorphins and letting it marinate!
SIXTY MILES? I would be dead!!!!!!!!
That is awesome! Glad you enjoyed it!
It's something that I started doing last year after all this crap started, and I really liked it. It's been good for me in a lot of ways.
How 'bout you? You hangin' in there?
I am hanging in! I see the dr. tomorrow and I am hoping I am cleared to enter society again! I have been home bound for over a week and it is really getting to me! This infection has been a real bugger. I am working from home, going to school from home and generally going nuts (more nuts than before, lol!). During the summer of 2008 I was stuck home for almost 8 weeks so I guess I shouldn't complain too much.
It's pretty sad when you are counting down the days till you can go to the market!
"I am...generally going nuts."
Not having to go too far to get there either, huh?
There's been a lot of crud going around lately, maybe since Spring is just around the corner, people will start getting out of the house more and quit staying bunched up inside making each other sick!
What kind of work do you do, and what are you studying for?
No, my road to nuts is pretty short, lol!
I actually have an infection in my leg. I had a debridement last week. This has happened before so it's not new to me, just a big pain.
I am back at school studying to be a paralegal. I am self employed within the small business sector.
"Nothing you ever say to me will change the amount of hate I feel towards you."
This is part of some texts I got from her last night because my son wanted to come over and stay with me when he was with her. She threatens me with her lawyer all the time...she 'draws' him like a gun! She accuses me of driving a wedge between her and the kids. She tells me how I haven't changed, never will, and how much her hatred for me continues to increase, and how bad of a person I am. And she tells me how happy she is now.
I told her I had no desire to change how she felt, and that I understood she felt the way she does. I also said that since I've made some changes, it sure feels nice to say just how I like myself again. In the midst of her angry texts to me, I also told her that I respect myself enough now to let go of people who don't value me. She's texted me a good bit recently...angry stuff. She said that I "wished" she were unhappy, and I said "nope, on the contrary, I wish us both well." A couple of days ago when she was texting me nastygrams, I told her that I'm looking good on the inside for the first time in a long time.
Trying to feed my spirit more daily with some inspirational reading. Weather starting to change for the better so getting outside and exercising will increase...YEA!
Boy Ant, I know my stbxw is bottled up with some of the same feelings towards me. A lot of it justified, but also a lot seems unjustified, over reaction, rewritten history, etc, etc..
You seem to handle this better than I when your ex is blasting away. That is some strength and courage under fire you have. Can you bottle some of that up, and forward it to me please?
"Nothing you ever say to me will change the amount of hate I feel towards you."
This is part of some texts I got from her last night because my son wanted to come over and stay with me when he was with her. She threatens me with her lawyer all the time...she 'draws' him like a gun! She accuses me of driving a wedge between her and the kids. She tells me how I haven't changed, never will, and how much her hatred for me continues to increase, and how bad of a person I am. And she tells me how happy she is now.
I told her I had no desire to change how she felt, and that I understood she felt the way she does. I also said that since I've made some changes, it sure feels nice to say just how I like myself again. In the midst of her angry texts to me, I also told her that I respect myself enough now to let go of people who don't value me. She's texted me a good bit recently...angry stuff. She said that I "wished" she were unhappy, and I said "nope, on the contrary, I wish us both well." A couple of days ago when she was texting me nastygrams, I told her that I'm looking good on the inside for the first time in a long time.
Trying to feed my spirit more daily with some inspirational reading. Weather starting to change for the better so getting outside and exercising will increase...YEA!
You beginning to see a trend here?
Me thinks she isn't too happy.
Hi IWITW.
Well, I've been listening to it for over a year. I've learned a lot during that time. I've let her blast away, I've validated her feelings, called her on stuff when I felt I needed to, and I continued to work on me despite it all. Still am.
Yeah, she's still pissed like a mutha!
I don't think that happy people are so full of hatred and resentment.
ps - I appreciate you checking in on me Coach.
I need some help. I got this in an E-mail from her late last night...
"I don't know if you've looked at the kids' grades lately but they are horrible.
Son is making C's, D's, and an F. Daughter has a C and D also. Starting
tomorrow (Monday) I want their agendas brought home EVERY day and I am going to
look at them (whether they are with me or you). I want them to write what they
did in class and what is coming up (assignments, tests, etc). Also, school
offers "Tuesday Tutors" where the kids can go and get help. I want Son to
start going this Tuesday. Daughter can go also to support him. It's from 3:45 to
4:45 so he'll need picking up. These grades need to be brought up. I will
start looking at them daily and you need to ask them about them as well. With
those kinds of grades they should be having homework every night. I'm also
going to email Son's teachers and see about him staying in during recess
and/or lunch to get some work done. It looks like he's missing assignments from
when you checked him out of school and kept him home. These should have already
been done. We need to work with them on this. This is their lives we are
dealing with and I do not want them to have low gpa's or repeat a grade. Both
of them are much smarter than the grades they are portraying.
W"
I've told her all along this crap has and is affecting the kids in a negative way, and she didn't want to hear any of it! Anyway I need to respond and I'd like some help from you folks.
ps- son was very sick with sinusitis and he missed a few days of school because of it (that's what she was referring to). Our kids always made good grades when they lived at home with both parents.
I might respond by first agreeing the poor grades must be addressed and a plan to get the children back on track is necessary. I might also express your desire to get to the root issue as to why the grades have dropped so drastically.
You said the children always had good grades before the divorce. While the workload may have increased as they move from grade to grade certainly there is more than just an increased workload or a more difficult curriculum causing such poor grades.
I would agree/validate your W's idea of a concrete plan on how to bring the grades up (tutoring, school work at home, having a parent check the list each night) but also be very clear in YOUR desire to find and address the root cause of the poor grades.
I don't know, CityGirl. Antlers clearly believes the breakdown of the M is the root cause -- and most likely it is. BUT Mrs. Antlers isn't going to want to hear any of that.
So I'd pick apart the plan. Does it sound reasonable -- it sounds a little overboard to me -- and work together on it.
Last year both D11 and D7 had terrible years in school -- for varying reasons.
The crux of the problem with D11 was the afterschool sitters weren't making her do her homework, leaving two bickering, tired parents to do it with her when we'd get home.
So that was a disaster.
This year we screened our afterschool sitter much better and told her the NO. 1 priority was for D11 to have her homework done by 6 p.m.
D7 is a different story. The school district started a special program for kids with ADHD. It's been a Godsend and she's thriving.
Now in W's brain, I can see her thinking, "see, we split up and the girls are doing better."
They are doing better acedemically because we learned our lesson last year and came up with a plan. Emotionally, they are both hurting.
But I'm not going to fight that fight with W. She'll figure it out eventually. I just focus on the girls and their emotional well being.
Focus on the problem. She's probably sitting there waiting for Antlers to focus on the R. I don't think it'll do any good to go down that road.
Hey Ant..
Sounds like school is tough for the kids now.
Their mom has a good idea in monitoring the kids work. However, alerting the teachers and setting up a meeting with you, their mom and the school might work better. Instituting a plan in which all are on board helps it work efficiently.
Many schools will have homework sign off where the child brings home the homework assignments (signed by the teacher) which the parent sign before the kids take it back.
Maintaining contact through email with the school is also good. Any and all emails should have both your names.
The book, "Love and Logic", provides straightforward ways of the kids learning to take responsibility. Living between two households adds its own confusion making maintaining consistency difficult. Having both parents working toward the same goal helps immensely.
A gold star for their mom for taking steps toward addressing school problems. A pat on the back for your awareness of the effects of the divorce on the kids. Now it's roll up your sleeves time to make it work for the kids.
Address the schoolwork, providing consistent structure and expectations between both households.
Address the emotional issues, conflicts and/or stress the kids are feeling. Many schools have divorce groups, etc. for kids. Talk to the school psychologist or social worker about whether the children would benefit from outside counseling.
I was told that kids watch as the parents tug the rope back and forth between each other, fighting with all the negative emotion. Drop the rope and hug your child instead.
Your divorcing/divorced? spouse crosses boundaries with the level of venom she spews. Responding does nothing. I remember what I did..
If the divorcing spouse screamed, yelled, was insufferably insulting, I'd hang up.
If the divorcing spouse was on a roll, I'd say.. "Absolutely!", "I can see how you'd feel that way." "Perfect." It takes two to fight. I'd opt not to stir the pot since his was usually a toxic stew.
If I received an email with insults, I'd reply based solely on the facts, or ignore it if there was no need to follow up.
A lot of this is learning your own boundaries, what is healthy for you.
I don't care if she's unhappy. Her misery and/or joy in life is her responsibility. So is yours!
Do what it takes to keep you on an even keel. She's right on track about addressing the issues for the kids. But make sure the whole picture is seen.. and work with the school. If everyone is involved it forces the kids to be more involved, too.
*hugs*
I wasn't suggesting Antlers call her up and some long R talk to show her how it is hurting the children.
No matter what the root cause is though if it is not addressed it won't ever go away, right? I can't say I know the best way to address it but it would seem that somehow it would need to be addressed.
A plan is a good idea to improve the grades. Understanding why the grades dropped and how that can be rectified is equally as important. Just my 2 cents!
Hey Clinging..
Children also model after their parents. Amazingly all my kids are doing better than ever from about nine months since the divorce was finalized. And this is even with their father basically seeing them for a diner meal on holidays with an occasional dinner with our daughter.
When going into this unexpected emotional chaos with the former spouse blaming me for ruining his life, I decided I was a good person going in to this, and that I'd be a good person coming out of it.
The kids would watch me struggle, keep trying and then succeed. They heard me when I said that there was so much to be grateful for in our lives, all that we had. That it's a choice to focus on the negative or embrace the positive. Accepting both, realizing what can and cannot be controlled.
I tried to never spoke negatively about their dad in front of them. Just strived to be the best I could be.. results varying day by day, but always trying.
Personal counseling helped me immensely as far as learning what it is to be healthy, creating boundaries. I always thought my job was to fall on the sword, take one for the team.
At least for me it's been a multi-step process.. and one that I'm still working on.
*hugs*
CityGirl, Gypsy, and Clinging...thank you for helping me with this. I simply agreed that their poor grades must be addressed, and that a plan to get them back on track was necessary. I did say that I desired to get to the root issue as to why their grades have dropped so drastically. I said they'd always made good grades before, and that there had to be something other than an increased workload or harder curriculum causing such bad grades. I agreed with her plan, and said it was a good idea. But I was clear that I wanted to find and address the root cause of their poor grades.
Hey Ant, that sounds like a reasonable reply to me, hope that today finds you doing well..
Hi IWITW.
I've been getting lots of nastygrams from her recently, calling me names and cutting me down in nearly every one of them.
I'm doin' OK, especially under the circumstances. Sucks.
Hope you're doin' OK too.
Ant..
That is one angry chihuahua.
*hugs*
Hi Gyps.
Yep. She left in Feb. of 2009, and she's 'still' that pissed!
Hey, ant,
Been following along. While it could be considered good that W is proposing addressing the grades, it comes across to me a little like a Drill Sergeant rattling off orders ("Get down and give me fifty!")
Unless I missed someone suggesting this already, I'd set up a meeting w/wife and the appropriate (or all) teachers. This would provide you, W, and the teachers with some much needed info and perspective.
Don't read the nastygrams. You can probably tell they're nastygrams within the first couple of words. Stop at that point and delete.
Hang in there.
Hi G.
She is militant. She is pissed! She doesn't want it to be that some of the decisions she's been making has had a disasterous effect on the kids grades. She doesn't want to feel any responsibility for that at all.
Their teachers know what's going on, I know what's going on, and their mother knows what's going on...she just doesn't want to feel any responsibility for it! A meeting right now would serve no purpose; we are in the midst of a nasty divorce, and a nasty custody battle (brought on by her). The children are victims.
Every single bit of communication from her these days has something nasty in it!
The kids and I leave for San Antonio early in the am for Spring Break. The kids are with her right now. I asked if she would mind helping each of the kids pack a bag for their trip...her response was "they can do it themselves"!
Antlers, I heard this story on NPR this morning. Here is the link:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124582959This quote made me think of you.
Overcoming Disappointments
In his seventh decade, Kushner wrote Overcoming Life's Disappointments. He says that when people look back on life, they realize that many things they had their hearts set on doing remain incomplete.
"Does that brand your life as a failure? Or can you find the secret ... of failing and not feeling like a failure?" Kushner says. "The difference between a person who has a happy old age and the person who has an unhappy old age is not how successful they were, but it's how much the things they failed at continue to gnaw at them. And no matter what you've achieved, if you're not able to still that little voice of disappointment, you are never going to be happy."
I hope you can get out and ride this weekend.
Cheers
Thanks for the link Coach. The disappointment is a b!tch. Knowing what I do about her, I know it could have been great for both she and I, and our kids, had I been given a chance. So yeah, the disappointment is a monster!
I have been riding some because the weather is finally turning better here. The kids and I are headed to San Antonio for Spring Break in the am. We'll come back Wednesday.
ant,
I feel for you, friend. You've got a tough, tough sitch.
And while I know you've got to live it every day, don't slip from the living in it reality to the wallowing in it mire.
Have
FUN! in San Antonio.
And like Coach just said, go out and ride today.
Thanks G.
I've started riding some, finally, because the weather here is improving. I'm working today.
This situation is tough, I know in my soul that she genuinely loved me in the past...now she HATES me.
I plan on us having a good time on Spring Break. The kids are 12 and 13 and they can be mean and very disrespectful because of the circumstances...manipulative too. Any way, they know I love them. And I'm doin' the best I can under very difficult circumstances.
ant, I don't remember all the details on your sitch. Nor would I ever hold out any hope when I'm neither informed nor qualified enough to do so but
I know in my soul that she genuinely loved me in the past...now she HATES me.
Anger comes from pain. Pain comes from love. The opposite of love isn't hate; it's apathy.
Just sayin' is all...
Hi G.
I don't know. She's just been sending me more mean texts in the past month or so than she has in the past.
Anyway, the kids and I had a pretty good trip in San Antonio. We just got back last night. We had some bumps, but overall it was a good trip for us all. I'll post more about it later.
They like to go to Barnes and Noble so we went to one down there, and I happened upon a book about forgiveness. It caught my eye because it's something I've been struggling with for over a year (forgiving myself). It's called The Forgiveness Formula by Kathleen Griffin. I started reading it sitting in the Alamo Plaza while my kids were playing in the attractions across the street. I'm liking it so far. It also gives me some more insight into her being able/not able to forgive too. But I'm reading it for me.
Why is it so difficult for us to forgive ourselves for the mistakes and bad things we've done. We are much more willing to forgive others for their mistakes and the bad things they've done...even when those things have hurt us to the core!
I just got back from a 25 mile ride and I'm headed out to do some more physical activity. I plan on reading more from now on to nurture my mind and learn. The kids went to Texas last night with their mom and won't be back till Sunday or Monday.
This was the first time I've gone to San Antonio without her in nearly 2 decades; it was always a special and fun place for us to go.
I honestly can't think of anything that I wouldn't forgive her for, over time ...so I should be just as willing to forgive myself for the wrongs I've done that hurt others as well as myself. I'm working on it.
TTYL,
antlers
I texted her on Feb. 14 to try and coordinate our Spring Break plans with the kids, and so I could finalize the plans I was making with them. She ignored me.
Later on in the day I texted her again, and mentioned that Spring Break was coming up soon. She texted back she couldn't touch bases with me then, but she would when she had time. I never heard from her about it again.
I provided that info. to my attorney a few days before Spring Break started, and she said we should split the time, with me taking the first half and her taking the second half. She said she would forward that plan to the opposing attorney.
The night before we left when the kids were with her, I asked if she would help them pack for their trip. She said no, "they can do it themselves", and then she told me when she planned on leaving with them! I then asked if she would see to it that they do it themselves...and I never heard from her. The next morning, I had to help them pack...there were some problems because it should have already been done, and we were late getting off.
We went to Fiesta Texas, spent a lot of time on the River Walk, went shopping, ate good food, saw a movie, and they did a lot of things across the street from the Alamo...haunted house, Guinness World Records Museum, Mirror Maze, and we did some sight seeing, etc. We had a pretty good trip.
She gave me no help at all, and didn't help the kids at all to get ready for their trip. They left as soon as we got back from our trip, and they took the clothes that I had packed for them for our trip on the trip with their mom...just like she had planned.
Unreal how mean she is.
As far as forgiving myself, I still feel bad for having hurt the people I cared about the most as much as I did and for as long as I did. She did suffer from my anger, resentment, and emotional/verbal abuse.
So forgiving myself is something I'm still working on. I can't take it back. My future shouldn't have to be defined by my past...should it?
ps - I ran 9 stadiums after my ride this morning. The university here has a big stadium too.
So forgiving myself is something I'm still working on. I can't take it back. My future shouldn't have to be defined by my past...should it?
No. Unless you plan on repeating the past. I firmly believe you do not.
However, you won't move forward without forgiving yourself for the past. You can't change it, so you must forgive it. Acceptance of that is the first step. You must accept it, and then forgive, then use the lessons of the past to shape your future, even though you can't predict your future.
Living in the here and now is where you should be, Today. What are you doing right now? Focus on that first, not your past, nor your future.
My future shouldn't have to be defined by my past..
How much have you learned, grown, changed and improved over the last twelve months? Your future will be shaped by the actions you take today. You were wise and brave enough to look at yourself and make healthy change for yourself. Not everyone can do what you have done.
"Love your neighbor as yourself." Name one person you wouldn't forgive for making a mistake.
When I was first seperated I used to have awful dreams and wake up sobbing. One night I felt a hand on my upper chest by my throat holding me down and a voice saying "Enough, enough, enough." It was God telling me to let go of the hurts I held in, the shame I felt, and the anger that was holding me back. That's when I started "loving myself."
You are handling it.
Cheers
Hello IWITW.
I DO NOT plan on repeating my mistakes of anger, resentment, and abuse. I DO NOT plan on repeating my mistakes due to a failure of compassion.
Forgiving myself for the past is something that I'm working on. I've made progress...but I've still got work to do here. It's not easy. I know I can't change it...this lady says in her book 'forgiveness is letting go of all hopes for a better past.' And I believe in order to learn from the past, a man must 'forgive it.' I have accepted, I know it happened...and I hate it that I was like that.
I agree. The here and now is where we should be living. It's just a hard thing. Like I said earlier, we forgive others easier than we forgive ourselves...and it shouldn't be that way. We should be just as willing to forgive ourselves as we are willing to forgive others!
ps - How are you?
Hi Coach.
Man I always appreciate it when you stop by. Thanks.
"How much have you learned, grown, changed and improved over the last twelve months?" A pantload!
"Your future will be shaped by the actions you take today." I must remember, and believe, that!
"You were wise and brave enough to look at yourself and make healthy change for yourself." Yep, I did do that!
It's too bad that crisis is what motivates us to change!
I can't think of one person that I wouldn't forgive for making a mistake.
I wish He would tell me the same Coach, and have it be as pronounced as it was to you!
Hope so. Got no other choice.
Surviving.
Been away from the site, and just living, keeping things going, will post some updates on my thread.
How are you doing Ant?
Hey IWITW.
Glad you're gettin' by.
I got more stuff in the mail today (a ton of it) that I need to supply by 3 weeks time for the Resolution Conference. Good grief! I've already supplied everything...including my sperm count
and my grandmothers sister's maiden name
! It's intimidating, ridiculous, and wrong. I feel like everything I've worked for, for decades, is being stripped from me. I wouldn't wish this crap on Hitler!
What's the worst thing that can happen?
It ain't gonna kill me!
antlers,
What's the worst thing that can happen?
It ain't gonna kill me!
There ya go. Good to hear.
Hang in.
The legal stuff is very intimidating, and scary. But I know that it ain't gonna kill me either! Jusy gotta maintain my coolness and perspective.
Sometimes looking back, it feels like the few months of the legal was every bit as brutal and as draining as the nearly 1 1/2 year sitch.
I think the few months that the legal struggle went on were worse than anything else. It is hard to look at a person who shared the most intimate parts of your life and see them as an adversary. And they know how to hit you below the belt because they know your weakness. The final day in the guardian ad litem's ofice was horifying. I was afraid of throwing up the entire time. I looked at a man I had loved with all my heart and saw such venom in his eyes, because I didn't back down and let him take my children, leave me destitute, and sail off into the sunset with the OW. I had the nerve to stand up for myself and my children and expect him to support the family he created then destroyed. How dare I!!! I remember my attorney hugging me, then I walked out, hands shaking, got in my car, drove around the block so X wouldn't see me, before I pulled over and cried.
It's pretty bad. What bright_new_day has to say about it rings loud and true. I can totally relate to what she describes.
I think the few months that the legal struggle went on were worse than anything else. It is hard to look at a person who shared the most intimate parts of your life and see them as an adversary. And they know how to hit you below the belt because they know your weakness. The final day in the guardian ad litem's ofice was horifying. I was afraid of throwing up the entire time. I looked at a man I had loved with all my heart and saw such venom in his eyes, because I didn't back down and let him take my children, leave me destitute, and sail off into the sunset with the OW. I had the nerve to stand up for myself and my children and expect him to support the family he created then destroyed. How dare I!!! I remember my attorney hugging me, then I walked out, hands shaking, got in my car, drove around the block so X wouldn't see me, before I pulled over and cried.
Hello. Boy, you hit the nail on the head. She got a GAL involved also...she's trying to take our kids! This legal stuff is awful...all of it. We shared the most intimate parts of our lives, as you said, and now we're adversaries! I've dealt with almost nothing but pure venom from her since she left well over a year ago! And now that we're in this huge legal battle, her venom is even worse! She's even more pissed because I didn't just roll over and go along with whatever she wanted! She helped me create our family. I admit that I did some damage in the past...lots of it. But she destroyed it! I changed, and she knows it...although she wouldn't admit it. She says that I had already pushed her over the edge by the time I started making my changes. She told me that she didn't think it was possible to hate somebody as much as she hates me!
I'm sorry that you had to go through the crap that you did.
She got a GAL involved also...she's trying to take our kids!
Yep, mine claimed I was mentally unstable and said he was the more fit parent. (I had been on anti-anxiety/depression meds for the last few years of our marriage. Went off of them about 4-5 months after he left!) As my atty pointed out, why did he move out and leave me with the kids if I was unstable!!! Then he had his atty put in for a court-ordered psych eval for me. LOL I passed just fine! He threw away $700 for it! And it was all to intimidate me into signing his ridiculous proposal.
And now that we're in this huge legal battle, her venom is even worse! She's even more pissed because I didn't just roll over and go along with whatever she wanted! She helped me create our family. I admit that I did some damage in the past...lots of it. But she destroyed it!
Exactly! The WAS gets so angry that they can't leave and have everything their way!!! I admitted my problems and was willing to try to work them out. He didn't want to, but boy was he mad that I suddenly grew a backbone!!
The WAS gets so angry that they can't leave and have everything their way!!! I admitted my problems and was willing to try to work them out. He didn't want to, but boy was he mad that I suddenly grew a backbone!! - bright_new_day
Yep. She wanted to leave and have EVERYTHING her way. It pissed her off that I retained an attorney and have bucked her when I felt like I should. It's become a war...a war that nobody wins. Except the lawyers. It's very nasty, unbelievable even! Venom and hate is what I get from her. Nearly every communication (always by text) from her contains venom and hate.
My X started with "we can just do it ourselves and save the money" line. I was concerned about the legal issues involved with the property, taxes, and his retirement account. And I guess I knew deep inside that I could not trust him at all. I suggested hiring a lawyer to draft a property settlement agreement for $750 (w/3 revisions included) I did that, he didn't like it and he filed for custody of the kids. Rather than try to negotiate he went right for the jugular. In the end I spent over $6000 and I am sure he spent close to $10,000 and we ended up with a property settlement agreement that could have cost us $750. We didn't end up that far off of what my attorney and I originally proposed. I was not one who asked for over and above what I was entitledd to and planned to negotiate down. I asked for what was reasonable. The only thing that changed from my initial paperwork is that spousal/child support was lower, but that was inevitable because I got a full time job; and he got one more week with the kids in the summer. And that cost roughly $16,000 that could have gone toward our kids college. Ugh, sometimes I want to run him over for that!
bright_new_day...it's almost unfathomable how ruthless they can be during times like these.
I got off work a little early yesterday and got on my bicycle, even though the wind here was atrocious. I did 77 miles yesterday...I was a glutton for punishment. It was good for me though...in lots of ways. I was too tired to drink my beer when I got in. I laid in bed and watched the OU women whip Kentucky. Yea Sooners! Final Four here we come.
Our choices as adults are almost unlimited, and sometimes they are painful...but it is still within our power to make choices. We here are having to deal with some really bad and painful things...but we have the freedom to choose every step of the way the manner in which we are going to respond to these bad and painful things. We have to acknowledge this freedom.
The more I learn about it, I think compassion is a huge strength, especially that for ourselves!
The life of wisdom must be a life of contemplation combined with action. - M. Scott Peck, from The Road Less Traveled.
I have learned so much over the past 16 months, and have changed a lot...even my way of thinking about things. I wish I could have turned things around. Reality and truth are the same thing though, and that's what we have to dedicate ourselves to. Things are what they are.
Hey Ant,
Happy Easter my friend, I have not been on the board much lately, but thanks for keeping up on my sitch.
Hope for the best for you and your family.
I don't know about you, but I am trying to avoid eating ALL he chocolate in the house this weekend.
I don't know about you, but I am trying to avoid eating ALL he chocolate in the house this weekend.
Yep...it's too hard to play catch up when we do things such as you mentioned above. Our mouths can outdistance our feet any day!
It's been horribly windy here in Oklahoma for the past few weeks. Nevertheless, I rode 51 miles yesterday morning and 52 miles this morning. Thank God for my bicycling.
Still working on taxes...supposed to file married but separate this year. It's the most expensive way to file...even higher than filing single.
Also still working on a huge information packet that my attorney sent me recently in preparation for the final conference and possible trial. This crap is neverending...I've already provided them with everything except a sperm sample!
I've already provided them with everything except a sperm sample!
Oh man, I can't believe I am going to go there, and I hope you have your sense of humor on today, but you already have provided that.... *snicker*
Sorry man, I couldn't resist...
No problem. I hope things are better for you when you get where I am than they are for me right now...I wouldn't wish this crap on Hitler!
Anyway, I'm a better man now than I've ever been...thank God for that. And I'm still workin' on me...probably keep doing that until they plant me.
Antlers,
It gets better, I promise.
Peace
Bridge
Antlers,
It gets better, I promise.
Peace
Bridge
Lord, I hope so. I know it could be worse...I 'could' have pancreatic cancer or something like that! My kids haven't been to our house with me pretty much since we've been back from Spring Break. Daughter got pissed because I wouldn't let her take a suitcase to her mom's (her mom has already kept 1 that I let her borrow to go on one of her cruises) after my son encouraged me to not let her take it because "mom will keep it." Son is mad because he got grounded from the computer for strong profanity, being mean, calling me names, and not minding. I've heard from them how they "hate" me and wish I weren't their father, and what a "horrible parent I am", etc. It breaks my heart...but I don't show it to them. I know that hurting people say hurtful things, and mad people say hurtful things. Son got suspended from school when he was at his mom's last week, and she let him stay home on the computer all day while he was suspended. Tonight she's taking him to an NBA game! Whatever it takes to keep them over there...that's what she'll do. She has poisoned them against me since she filed for divorce. I've seen a huge change in them since then. I'm trying not to take what they say personal...it's hard. I have to use sound judgement to regulate and modulate my emotion. This all comes at such a bad time though, as we are in the midst of an awful custody battle. But I can't let them curse, be mean, call me names, or not mind...regardless of the situation. That's not being a parent, and it's not loving them. They are being 'coached' by their mom...they say pretty much word for word the same things that she sends to me in her nastygrams via text.
ps - Isn't it true that without boundaries we cannot have healthy relationships with others...even our children?
I'm asking for help here.
I got this text from her last night about our kids...
"You are still emotionally and mentally abusive to them. You still get some sort
of sick satisfaction out of manipulating and controlling their little minds. You
have caused them more harm than good. They remember the way you treated all of
us when I was there and they will remember the way you treat them now. They are
smart kids and see you for the true person you are."
Our kids are cussing, not minding, and being mean. I know they need counseling. My daughter has kicked a hole in her wall over here when I told her 'no', my son has been suspended from school for fighting, and they both are getting in a lot of trouble at school. These kids were NEVER like this before. Their mother is using them as 'weapons' against me. When I take a privelege away from them because of their behavior (like those mentioned above), she let's them do whatever they want at her house. As a result, they are not wanting to come over to my house. It hurts bad!
I'd like to respond to her text. I'm asking for help here with that. And any other words of wisdom you folks could give me. Thank You. This is awful and painful.
Boy Ant, I don't have much advice, Since this is a recurring theme in your sitch, have you brought this up with our IC? For that matter, are you in any counseling?
I would bring this text to my IC and ask for advice, before responding.
My first inclination would be to validate how she feels, but then state that when your kids are at your house, there is boundaries for behavior and there are consequences when they: Kick holes in walls, cuss, talking back to there father, etc.
On the one hand though, you probably do want to give them a little lee way in there behavior as they go through this, until you can get them to counseling.
This seems a fine line for you, so I'd really discuss with IC first, but that's just my 2 cents, (Or as I like to put it, my 2/3 of a cent after giving the rest to stbxw... :o)
Tough to deal with, I can understand, but keep a smile where you can..
Hey Ant..
There's no need to continue to apologize for the past. It's over, done with. It's the present that counts. Actions speak louder than words. A positive, confident attitude goes a long way.
Some books might be helpful,
How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk and
Parenting With Love And Logic.
DB kids. Listen without forming a reply. If you feel angry, walk away, telling the kids that you'll continue when you're in a better place. Anytime they talk, when you respond, use fewer words than they did.
This is a tough time, stuck with the mountains of legal paperwork, the steady nastiness of your divorcing spouse and now feeling the kids are turned against you.
Eventually the kids figure it out. One parent demeaning the other always comes back to bite 'em in the ass. Focus on being the best person you can be in mind body and spirit, growing to be the best dad, letting go of the texts she sends you.
Talk to your lawyer about her harassment, see if there's anything that can be done.
In the end, it's you.. and your choice in how you make your home a safe place for the kids. Never put down their mom to their face or in earshot, or share details about the divorce.
Set the boundaries, let the kids know the consequences for their actions. And family therapy might prove to be very helpful.
Keep you chin up. They're worth it. You're worth it.
*hugs*
Ant, Gypsy took the words right out of my mouth:
Eventually the kids figure it out. One parent demeaning the other always comes back to bite 'em in the ass.... Talk to your lawyer about her harassment, see if there's anything that can be done.
From where I sit, your children have one true parent: you. If they hate you for setting boundaries and consequences, you are doing it right. Be the one true parent you are. And remember, spew coats are useful with kids, too
You are doing fine. Don't second guess yourself. Your instincts and actions are right on the money.
Oh, and...
Delete All Texts from her.
Before reading them!
Hello IWITW. Thanks for responding. This is what I sent back...
"Nothing could be further from the truth than the crap you just texted me. By making me responsible for everything, you make yourself responsible for nothing!
And we both know that's not the truth.
Our children are in crisis, especially because of your actions since December of 2008. I miss our kids. Im love them, and I'd like them to be with me when they are supposed to be."
I felt better after sending it. I've validated out the a$$ over the last 15 months! I went to counseling for several months last year after this crap started, and I got stronger over time. It definately helped. Her filing in October hit me hard though.
I especially like this advice from you..."state that when your kids are at your house, there is boundaries for behavior and there are consequences when they: Kick holes in walls, cuss, talking back to there father, etc."
I do have to give them some leeway because of the circumstances, but it's friggin' hard when they are so out of control, especially my son. He's become violent. He was always a soft hearted boy...now he laughs when he physically hurts others (including me)...doesn't seem to feel remorse, and NEVER apologizes for physically hurting others.
Hi Gyps. Thank you for responding.
"There's no need to continue to apologize for the past. It's over, done with. It's the present that counts. Actions speak louder than words. A positive, confident attitude goes a long way."
And thank you for reminding me of that. God, I so need reminding of that often!
I am reading the first book you mentioned; the second one is a little too biblical for me, right now anyways.
"Listen without forming a reply. Anytime they talk, when you respond, use fewer words than they did."...that's good advice...thanks.
"This is a tough time, stuck with the mountains of legal paperwork, the steady nastiness of your divorcing spouse and now feeling the kids are turned against you." - you hit the nail on the head there!
"Eventually the kids figure it out. One parent demeaning the other always comes back to bite 'em in the ass. Focus on being the best person you can be in mind body and spirit, growing to be the best dad, letting go of the texts she sends you." - God, I hope so. Thanks, I'll work harder on this.
"In the end, it's you.. and your choice in how you make your home a safe place for the kids. Set the boundaries, let the kids know the consequences for their actions. Keep you chin up. They're worth it. You're worth it." - I love all of this...thank you .
If I can ever get my mind and spirit as strong as my body is right now...I'm gonna be out of control.
Ant, Gypsy took the words right out of my mouth:
Eventually the kids figure it out. One parent demeaning the other always comes back to bite 'em in the ass.... Talk to your lawyer about her harassment, see if there's anything that can be done.
From where I sit, your children have one true parent: you. If they hate you for setting boundaries and consequences, you are doing it right. Be the one true parent you are. And remember, spew coats are useful with kids, too
You are doing fine. Don't second guess yourself. Your instincts and actions are right on the money.
Oh, and...
Delete All Texts from her.
Before reading them!
Hey G. Thanks for responding. They do seem to hate me for setting boundaries and consequesces for their behavior. Thanks for the reminder about the spew coat!
"You are doing fine. Don't second guess yourself. Your instincts and actions are right on the money." - And thanks for that too!
The communication between she and I, on her part, spoken and unspoken, is so mean that it's hard to get my brain around it. But it's real. She's doing whatever she can, no matter how wrong it is, to facilitate the best outcome for her. She wants me out of her life, and out of our kids lives, and she will stoop to whatever low is required to help her accomplish that. This woman that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with has become a true adversary.
I'm a better man now than I was in the past...and I'll be a better man after this 'war that nobody wins' is over. She's figuring on 'winning'...on 'cashing in' big time. But I'm fighting to the bitter end for my kids and myself...so that WE can have the best outcome obtainable. It doesn't look good for me right now...but I'm gonna fight to the nth degree of my capabilities.
I've felt, since before she left and ever since...the consequences of my actions. I've tried to atone. I've changed.
She needs to feel the consequences of her actions.
Our children are in bad shape. She has used them as weapons. She's impervious to the damage that she's doing to the kids. Selfish...in the truest definition of the word.
Adversary is the key word. You'll endure Ant, for you and your kids to have that best outcome possible.
Keep it up, and I am keeping you in my thoughts..
Thanks.
She's going for the full nut-cuttin'. Changed her original filing to seeking full custody, going after my firearms, going after the contents of the home that she didn't want, going after the equity and whatever increased value of the home there is compared to the purchase price, going after as much child support as she can, going after the retirement account that I single-handedly built up for our future, and she's 'using' the kids (especially my 13 y/o daughter) as weapons against me in the custody fight.
It's hard to get my brain around all this. But it hits me in the face daily. All the ramifications and considerations involved in this sordid mess compound and add to the difficulties involved.
It's unreal to see what she's become and what she's doing. It's possible for some people to change for the worse just like it's possible for some people to change for the better.
I hate it that things are this way. But they are.
Why does your post remind me of this car I have seen sitting in the front yard on my way to KC? It is on the back highways, not the interstate and it is cut with just the front end sitting in the yard. It has a big sign painted on it: She got the other half in the divorce!
They become aliens that's for sure!
kat
Hi. Yep...alien!
Saw this on Thinker's thread, and I can relate...
"My STBXW is emotional and tries to win arguments by making grand, vague and accusatory statements." She also tries to justify her actions by convincing herself of things that are no longer true.
"My plan is to remain unemotional and have facts and figures available to counter any accusation she makes." I'm providing sound facts and figures...just gotta hope there is some 'justice' in the legal system.
"She is hanging on to a fantasy view of her life after D." Yep, she's dyed her hair blond; has a FaceBook thing that she spends a lot of time on, and runs around with our 21 y/o daughter like they are friends instead of mother and daughter. And she's figuring on 'cashing in' big time in the divorce.
On a more pleasant note, my 12 y/o son and I have been spending more time together and things have been going good. Still haven't seen my 13 y/o daughter since we got back from Spring Break. :-(
Antlers,
Let me tell you something. I've followed your thread from the beginning. You're a good man. Keep on keeping on.
We've made alot of mistakes. Can't take those back now. Keep doing good, and doing the right thing as much as you can.
You seem to be handling everything that's being thrown at you as well as can be expected. I pray that God gives you much blessing and the desires of your heart.
Antlers,
Let me tell you something. I've followed your thread from the beginning. You're a good man. Keep on keeping on.
We've made alot of mistakes. Can't take those back now. Keep doing good, and doing the right thing as much as you can.
You seem to be handling everything that's being thrown at you as well as can be expected. I pray that God gives you much blessing and the desires of your heart.
Thank You TulsaTime. I appreciate everything you said here.
It's coming right down to it now. The final resolution conference is on May 10. I'm nervous, and I'm kinda scared. I'm also sad and hurt.
I'm not gonna die from whatever happens, but thinking about stuff sure does cause a huge ration of painful emotions.
My 12 y/o son and I have been spending some really good time together though!
ant,
You'll be nervous, scared, sad and hurt.
And you'll be fine.
I hate this. Mountains of legal paperwork. Intimidating and scary legal proceedings. Financial burdens never known before. Children that are in turmoil. Children being used as weapons against the other parent. A family torn apart. Hopes and dreams for the future shattered. And utter rejection and hatred from someone whom you thought you would spend the rest of your life with.
That's my life right now.
I feel a lot of stress. I'm doing the best I can. It hurts.
I wish things weren't this way...but they are. I wish the past wasn't what it was...but it is.
It still bothers me to no end that I was the way that I was. And it has cost me dearly. Given that, what else could I have done, after the fact? I've had true remorse, I repented, I shouldered what I had done, I apologized profusely, I tried to make amends and atone, I asked for forgiveness...and I changed.
What else could I have done, other than what I have?
What else could I have done, other than what I have?
Nothing. You can't change the past. When you can look in the mirror and say I tried my best then you are a success.
Knowing what you know now, what kind of man are you going to be? This is how you survive and thrive in this turmoil. You are a changed man for the better Antlers. I can't imagine the pain you are feeling. Just know it won't last forever and that you are loved and appreciated in this world.
Strength and Honor
Coach
I see now where you are coming from... I'm sorry that you are int he worst/thick of it, hope you got good legal advice and that negotiations didn't screw up your finances...too much.
It still bothers me to no end that I was the way that I was. And it has cost me dearly. Given that, what else could I have done, after the fact? I've had true remorse, I repented, I shouldered what I had done, I apologized profusely, I tried to make amends and atone, I asked for forgiveness...and I changed.
hmmm... i think I was on blame mode for about a year and a half... then I had to make myself remember that it wasnt' just me, there were too many factors why things went they way they were, that no matter how many times I'd torture myself trying to pin-point what happened/where/why it was just not going to make sense and fit in a neat box. What I did end up telling myself is that I did fight for my M, I did change, I asked for forgiveness, I gave us a fresh start and we had a great chance at working things out...but he wasn't interested.
So, even though the blame game will continue to play in your head try to cut it short telling yourself that you gave it your all, as someone put it here 'it might be too late but damn if it's going to be too little'... you came around and did your damnest, and that's what counts in the end. IT is easy to look back and see what we should've done, but you did the best with the knowledge you had then.
It will get better, I promise. Such a shame the kids are getting hurt in the process, jeez, that woman is selfish!... I took my kids to counseling when things were going bad, is that a posibility? it did them a world of good. My teacher told us one day that if your kids don't say you are mean then you are not doing a good job...so when when my son calls me mean when I dont
let him do something I dont' think is right I just say 'that's ok, it's my job' and don't get hurt about it anymore.
Best of luck with the paperwork!
antlers, you posted such wise words in my thread that I wanted to come and read your sitch. I'm sorry you're going through a rough patch. I know what you're going through with the legal paperwork and the uneasiness about the laws etc. I'm in the same boat, I have a child-custody mediation date of May 12th and then a court hearing date on May 24th. I absolutely have no idea what's going to happen on those dates but I know I'll survive. Whatever life throws at me I'll stand up and take it and some day I'll be able to look back and tell my grand kids about my own 'war' stories.
As for what else you could've done? really nothing! it's a two way street, one single person can't fix it alone. She has to be willing to work on it with you but she has no desire or the strength. She'd rather take the cowardly approach of cut-and-run. Just know that one day she'll realize what she did, just not right now. So stand tall for all that you did for your M and her and the kids and be proud! those of us that know what it takes to do that understand that it takes utmost determination and will...so the heck with those that won't appreciate it.
While it's not a good idea to hope that after D is final she'll come back but that's always a possibility. D doesn't mean an end of you two forever, it just means the end for now. So for now just focus on getting it done and getting it off your plate.
Just do your best and forget the rest.
Hi Antlers,
I'm sorry you're in a rough spot right now in life.
The craziness of the legal side of things, the intensity of the emotions... fear, anxiety, disappointment... all colouring the thought process.
I hope you can find some way to get some relief from the stress of it, support from your friends & family, and peace from self-forgiveness.
I was happy to read that you & your son are having more positive interactions.
Something to think about that has helped me reframe events of loss in my life in the past few years.
"That's what learning is, after all; not whether we lose the game, but how we lose and how we've changed because of it and what we take away from it that we never had before, to apply to other games. Losing, in a curious way, is winning.”=== R. Bach
Take care
Peace
Bridge
Coach, cat03, StupidRomeo, and Bridgestone...Thank You all for your kind words of support. I really took to heart the things you all posted.
Today is the Final Resolution Conference between the Judge, my attorney, and her attorney. I'm working today, and I don't believe she is there either. They're gonna try to come to some agreement on things, and I have to be available by phone.
Otherwise, there's gonna be a trial.
It's been mean and nasty going so far...leading up to this point.
My son and I have been spending some good time together. Thank God for that.
Thanks again folks for your support. The things you wrote really mean a lot to me.
"I wish things weren't this way...but they are. I wish the past wasn't what it was...but it is."
Antlers,
I can't remember if I've ever posted to you before, but I will say some things now.
First, I just learned, from reading your thread, that you and I are on the legal side of a divorce together, at almost the same time. I'm going to court today for temporary support, and you are having some legal issues today too. That makes us akin to a parallel path.
As for your quote above: I use to wish things weren't what they were too, but I don't anymore. I see my H as a monster now, knowing what I know now has changed the way I feel about him. I see you as blaming yourself for most of this; someone told me to look at the way he treated me. And I did. Now I see that it wasn't all my fault, that he had at least half the blame. Maybe if your wife didn't treat you the way she did, you would have treated her differently.
"I hate this. Mountains of legal paperwork. Intimidating and scary legal proceedings. Financial burdens never known before."
Think of the paperwork as a bothersome detail. I did. Money is a matter too. I have $1.05 in my checking account. I'm going to this court hearing today with little emotional support from family, friends and others. I'm completely alone, except for my attorney. You have children. Always, be thankful for your children. If you didn't have children, you'd have less support from others.
"And utter rejection and hatred from someone whom you thought you would spend the rest of your life with."
(I'm just throwing this out there. I don't even know if you believe in God). But, this is what I do, every day. I pray for God to forgive him. I've been doing it for two years. The tears don't come as often. And I'm able to see him for the monster that he is. God doesn't always give us what we want, but he always gives us a vision. Your case is different than mine. Don't you want to see the vision that will set you free? I did.
"Given that, what else could I have done, after the fact? I've had true remorse, I repented, I shouldered what I had done, I apologized profusely, I tried to make amends and atone, I asked for forgiveness...and I changed."
And, I believe you. Now, you have to believe yourself. That's the key. Turn all of what you just said into, "I'm better than than now. And, I deserve better."
just my .02.
poet
Hey antlers,
Whatever you feel about marital possessions and assets, they're still considered joint property. Stuff is stuff. Only your children and the intangible, what makes you a good person, what you are grateful for, are important.
Being on the receiving end of the blame game is draining. I believed and/or felt guilty for everything he accused me of. Then I realized I gave him that power. I thought back to what he said and viewed his words from a different light.
Something broke. It wasn't fixed. It ended.
And I started chuckling when I thought back to some of my actions in the relationship. I might not want to be married to me, either.
Your divorcing spouse is a walking wound, spewing pus and anger. She needs that to justify her actions. She doesn't trust you, she's enraged and lashes out at you. My divorcing/former spouse continues to do that to me, even though he married the woman of his dreams (2.0) The saying, "Thou doth protest too much.", comes to mind.
When your kids get stuck in the middle, think of what you'd say to a good friend's child going through the same thing. "This not your responsibility. This is something for your mom and me to work out." Don't take the message. Write/call/text her back and set a firm boundary. Otherwise it will become the norm.
Validate your departing spouse's words when she spews, "I can see why you feel that way." "Absolutely." It takes two to fight.
So Antlers, I'm sorry to hear how miserable this is for you. It can be viewed as an unending crucifixion with self flagellation thrown in or a pain in the ass project. Your choice. Put your energy where it counts most.
And congratulations on becoming the person you're meant to be, an intangible no one can take away from you.
*hugs*
Gypsy and poet...Thank You for your supportive words. All of what you wrote resonates with me, especially...
"Given that, what else could I have done, after the fact? I've had true remorse, I repented, I shouldered what I had done, I apologized profusely, I tried to make amends and atone, I asked for forgiveness...and I changed." - antlers
"And, I believe you. Now, you have to believe yourself. That's the key. Turn all of what you just said into, "I'm better than that now. And, I deserve better." - poet
and...
"Your divorcing spouse is a walking wound, spewing pus and anger. She needs that to justify her actions. She doesn't trust you, she's enraged and lashes out at you." - Gypsy
It's about 1:30 in the afternoon here and I haven't heard anything yet.
Thank You again for your kind words of support.
ant,
No words of wisdom; you've already gotten the best today.
Just prayers and support for a good outcome.
And inner peace.
Thanks G. I appreciate it.
Didn't hear one word yesterday regarding things. Hectic day yesterday anyway...anticipation/anxiety regarding the Final Resolution Conference...plus we had bad tornados all over here yesterday with some fatalities and some very critically injured people. Had to stay late last night because of it. Back at work again this morning, wondering if/what I'm gonna hear from my attorney regarding the case.
My son texted me yesterday evening that he wanted me to come and get him after I got off of work last night, so I did.
He's 12. We've been spending lots of QT together recently. Thank God for that.
I'll see what today brings.
Hi Antlers,
There is a newbie in newcomers that I think could benefit from your experience. her name is fudwoman.
I know you are in the midst of a lot of high tension issues and that time & mental/emotional energy may be at a premium, but I know if someone has been there, done that in making changes from 'angry' to 'at peace', and can have compassion for where she is at right now in growing & working on her R, it's you.
Thanks for whatever you can do.
Bridge
thanks
Finally heard from my attorney yesterday. Trial date is set for July. I wasn't wanting a trial. Anyway as Gypsy said on another thread..."She IS your adversary. Treat it as a business proposition, cut and dry. Get the best possible deal and walk away." It's hard to see me being able to survive this financially right now. It's cut throat, scorched earth litigation...propagated by her attorney and her. It's bad. I do not look forward to a trial.
oh no, sorry to hear that! will keep praying til then...
Just wanted to put this on my thread too because it is such sound wisdom...
"Life is better when a former spouse's antics (on either side of the spectrum) are not monitored." - Gypsy
Greek posted this earlier on Thinker's thread, and I can relate...
"She's in full tilt 'entitled princess' mode and you are not going along with it as you once did. It's rocking her world." - Greek
She's just pissed because I'm messing up her game plan. This divorce has turned into the most nasty and awful thing!
Must be tough when they follow "the script" for so long and the spouse has the temerity to not play along.
They are so selfish and self-centered at this point, that they think of NO ONE but themselves. For the overwhelming majority of our relationship, I never knew her to be this way. But she is now, and has been since she decided to leave. I got so 'walked all over' for a long, long time after she left...I got stomped into the mud.
I wish I hadn't been the way I was during a lot of our relationship.
I've had true remorse, I repented, I shouldered what I had done, I apologized profusely, I tried to make amends and atone, I asked for forgiveness...and I changed.
But damn! I'm not going to be 'walked all over' any more...I'm not going to be stomped into the mud anymore. I'm fighting like a mutha' to come out of this awful divorce as well as I possibly can for my kids and myself.
Why do I still hurt? And why do I still wish that I could 'fix' things, and make the situation better for all of us?
Why do I still hurt? And why do I still wish that I could 'fix' things, and make the situation better for all of us?
Because you are human. Because you made a commitment and expected to see it through for your ENTIRE life, not just until you felt like walking away from it, or something that sounded better came along. Because you actually meant the vows you took.
Thanks bright_new_day.
You described exactly the way I feel.
"Actions over time speak louder than words." - Gypsy
I haven't seen my oldest daughter since last October. I haven't seen my youngest daughter since we got back from Spring Break. It breaks my heart. I still text them to let them know that, despite all of this, I still care. I never hear from them.
My son and I have been spending some good time together though.
I still text them to let them know that, despite all of this, I still care.
That's the right thing to do. It's honorable and is a reflection of who you really are. Doing this matters. Even though your daughters aren't responding they are watching your actions. You are a good man Antlers.
Coach
Boy, Antlers, coach is correct, continue to do what you are doing now, because it is the right thing to do, and I know that is why you are doing it.
Keeping you in my thoughts man, I was away for 3 weeks, but catching up with some people now..
Coach and IWITW...thanks guys. I plan on continuing to do so. Even though things are so bad, I know in my heart that I love them. And I want them to know that too. I hope they will someday want me to be a part of their lives.
Honor - A code of dignity, integrity, and pride maintained without legal or other obligations.
I got this from one of sandi's posts earlier today. It's such good stuff, that I wanted it here too. Living with 'honor' these days, I believe, is the exception rather than the rule.
"Living well is the best revenge."
"Living well is the best revenge."
Yes indeed it is. Not only for Ex-spouses, but the family members & those "friends" that just didn't get it, as well.
Peace
Bridge
ant,
Why do I still hurt? And why do I still wish that I could 'fix' things, and make the situation better for all of us?
Because you are human. Because you made a commitment and expected to see it through for your ENTIRE life, not just until you felt like walking away from it, or something that sounded better came along. Because you actually meant the vows you took.
And
I still text them to let them know that, despite all of this, I still care.
They'll be back.
Keep doing what you're doing; keep being who you are.
They'll be back.
Bridge and Gardener...thank you.
'Living well is the best revenge' is kind of like 'when you're in touch with your core value, you cannot do wrong'. There is no downside to it. Only good things can come from it.
She said back in February that "It's not that I didn't trust your changes but by the time you decided to change you had already pushed me over the edge. And I did care about you or I wouldn't have put myself through hell for over 15 years trying to make things work."
I wish I hadn't been the way I was. But I know in my heart that I have done everything that I could have done, after the fact, to make things better, including changing. I've become what she'd wanted me to be all along. I did it because it needed to be done, and for no other reason. It sucks that she wouldn't give me a chance.
Still spending some good time with my son...he stays with me a lot these days. I miss my daughters. The trial is set for the last week in July. Not looking forward to that. I wish the lawyers could work something out before that.
I've been doing some 80 mile bicycle rides over the last 3 weeks...I've done 6 of them during that time. It's tough, not only physically but mentally...especially now that it's getting much hotter here. It feels really good to know that I can push myself to those extremes...and even more if I choose to. Sometimes makes the tough things in life seem like no big deal.
"Forgiving does not mean forgetting. When we can get to the point that we can wish them peace, we've reached a point of forgiveness. We have set them free, and in doing so, set ourselves free. They no longer have that power over us." - Drew
I saw this wisdom earlier today and wanted to have it on my thread.
It's still hard for me to get my brain around how someone who you know loved you very much, can come to hate you so much. It's equally hard for me to understand how she can try to take my kids away from me. I've got to stand in front of the Judge tomorrow and be arraigned on contempt charges that her attorney filed recently. They are legal tactics intended to make me look bad to the court. I'm in the midst, and have been, of some really awful stuff...and my kids are suffering for it...and she doesn't seem to care.
I am so ready for this..."We have set them free, and in doing so, set ourselves free. They no longer have that power over us."
I feel like I'm in an awful fight for my life, and for my kids lives...and things are not in my favor. It doesn't seem to be enough for her to hurt me like she has...she also wants to use the kids to hurt me further, and take them away from me...and she wants to crush me financially.
Anyway, my son is still with me...his choice. He and I are spending some good time together. I pray that God will allow me to make up for the mistakes that I made with my son in the past.
Hey Antlers, I will keep you in my prayers tonight and tomorrow hoping for a decent judgement... I pray for a ending of her madness and for things to go the best way possible for you and the children.
Hey Ant..
*hugs*
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpaContinual self flagellation and/or laying blame keeps the past firmly anchored. Aspirations inspire forward movement. It's all a choice in what to keep, what to release.
You messed up. So did she. You changed. So did she. It broke. It wasn't fixed. It ended.
Continually wondering why, where, how, what if is like unendingly flushing a nasty clogged toilet with plunger in hand. The choice.. let the filth overflow or just plunge the literal crap out of it until that gurgle of total disposal is heard.
As far as the divorce goes, just get it over with. Some folks say to threaten the worst possible outcome forcing the other party to settle out of fear. Others suggest offering a good settlement and getting the hell out of Dodge. The one thing I do know is that folks with pissed off egos piss away a lifetime's worth of savings.. and then some.
No one wants to go to trial. And I don't know all the crap she's throwing at you, though I do remember her going after your guns and things she never cared about. Stuff is stuff. The longer this goes on the longer it screws everyone up.
*hugs*
Along with texting your love to the kids.. consider sending funny lines, or a picture of some place neat that reminded you of them. Light, fun.. like a poke, jab, wink, smile of being with them.. only with websites, jokes and photos. It's the thought that counts in those actions.. but make it short! And laughter eases tension, relaxes the soul.
You're a good man.
*hugs*
Antlers, hang in there man, I feel for you. I can relate to your situation somewhat as my STBXW is doing things I never thought she would. She's even threatened me about full custody of our DD and then saying "...but I think you're a good dad" WTF? I know I'm a great dad and was a good H too you narcisstic bi-polar crazy woman!
I agree with Gypsy that if you have the option of ending it sooner the better it'll be for your own well being. You sound like a good man. No one's perfect but what matters is that we own up and work on improving/fixing ourselves, it proves that we care enough to want to change.
Hey Ant..
And one more thing..
With the settlement look at what really is important, what your priorities are, what is most valuable, intangible in your life. Fight for those. Perhaps it's more time with your kids to diminish the amount of estrangement. The longer it goes on (I'm guessing) the harder it is to re-establish a closer relationship. It's great that you're having lots of quality time with your son. However, girls learn how to love, what to expect in a man by how he treats them. Only you can determine how much time you want, fight for.
Kids need both parents.
*hugs*
Thank You cat03.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness. Her counsel charged me with contempt of court, I plead not guilty, I had to put up a PR bond, and there's gonna be a trial for this too...probably will coincide with the trial for custody and property/assets in late July. I too wish her madness would end, and for things to go the best way for my kids and myself. Your post meant a lot to me...thanks.
Hello Gypsy.
Thank You for your support. I know what you say is right, and I continue to work on it. I believe I'm much stronger about it than I was in the past. It just still pisses me off that I was the way I was. In a way, I was like Jesse James in that I had something really good, and I took it for granted and pissed it away. I know I have to let go of it. The opposition doesn't want to settle...they want a trial! So I'm gonna gird up and fight like hell. It has nada to do with my ego...I've already lost her, my future with her, my hopes and dreams with her, my family as I knew it, and my kids have suffered tremendously. Now she wants to make me destitute financially, and take my kids away from me! F#@K that! I'm fighting. I don't want to go to trial, they do, so I gotta go too. It gets nastier and nastier daily, and it does screw everyone up. I have no choice. Thank you for the suggestion of lightening things up via texting with my estranged daughters. I'll do that. I get no response from either of them just letting them know that I love and care about them. Your posts are wise and heartfelt...thank you.
StupidRomeo, that name is a trip!
I've seen and heard things from her that I never thought I would. I would have believed the world would end before I would see and hear the things from her that I have. I don't have the option of ending it sooner...they want a trial! They're getting it. The investigative attorney that she got involved in this case told me that a trial would be the worse thing for all involved, me, the kids, her...everybody. But she doesn't care. I'm a better man now than I've ever been, and I've done exactly as you describe at the end of your post. Thank you for posting to me, I needed the support.
Gypsy...what's important? The well-being of my kids and myself. I believe that kids need both parents too. I feel like I'm in a fight for my life, and the lives of my kids. It will be harder for me to care for them like I want to if I'm left financially destitute like their mother wants. I'm doing good with, and for, my son. I want to do the same with, and for, my daughters.
To the community here on this board..."When it seems that our sorrow is too great to be borne, let us think of the great family of the heavy-hearted into which our grief has given us entrance, and inevitably, we will feel about us their arms, their sympathy, their understanding."
Helen Keller
I saw that quote earlier today on this board, and it hit home...thanks.
Antlers, great to see the renewed energy and attitude. Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire. You've done everything you possibly could to do this amicably but if that's not enough for her then you'll stand up for yourself.
When is the hearing? Why the contempt of court?
There is no hearing. There's gonna be a separate trial for the contempt charge. My lawyer is gonna try to consolidate it with the trial concerning custody and property.
Her lawyer filed contempt charges against me for failure to pay child support, about a week after the final resolution conference.
I didn't understand the initial order. I'd never been to court in my life. The initial hearing was last October. Nobody ever said "you need to start paying." My attorney should have, and I would have. I got something in the mail last Feb. telling me that I was supposed to start paying the previous November! I e-mailed my attorney about it and she never got in touch with me about it. Then, in preparation for the final resolution conference, some papers asked about child support arrearage, and my attorney's staff wrote "not applicable"...so I still believed that there was not a problem.
After the final resolution conference, my attorney told me that I needed to start paying it, so I did...right away. I made the first check out to my kids (I wanted them to know that I was helping them even when they were with their mother). Then I wrote another check about a week later (made out to the kids mother), and later on that day I was notified by my attorney that the opposing counsel had filed the charge...and he mentioned that I made the first check out to the kids. I guess it pissed them off. I made 3 monthly payments in a 3 week period, and have since made a 4th...all before the arraignment on last Monday. I'll definately be more than caught up by the time of the trial in late July.
I explained to the kids mother that I didn't understand the order, and after it was made clear to me, I started paying right away...and that I had made 3 monthly payments in less than 3 weeks...it didn't matter at all.
It's a tactic to make me look bad to the Court, plain and simple.
Hard to get my brain around the hatred that she has for me.
I'm really sorry antlers...I can completely understand how you feel. My STBXW is doing some crazy stuff too. In fact, I just got done writing her temp support payments and it pisses me off to no end that she even complained to her attorney that I didn't give her the money from last year's tax return. Hello!!!! you were unemployed the WHOLE year!!...you didn't pay any taxes but you want half of my tax return too? The really f'd up part about is that financially she's always been irresponsible whether she made $40k/yr or $80k/yr and I always saved money for the rainly day (retirement, vacations etc) and still bailed her out most of the time. And now I gotta give her half of every thing I saved on top of the ridiculous alimony+cs because she's making next to nothing. It's such a sore topic for me.
I'm sorry she's turned into a witch for you. Hang in there, you sound like an honest, caring guy...don't let her take that away from you.
charges against me for failure to pay child support, I got something in the mail last Feb. telling me that I was supposed to start paying the previous November!
Hard to get my brain around the hatred that she has for me.
Really??
To her.. you were ordered to pay child support
over 6 months ago with no action on your part to follow through or on your attorney's part to indicate you would contest it.
To her.. you have been shirking your duty as a father/provider, despite your words during this 6 month time.
While I understand you didn't understand the initial order and your lawyer appears to have dropped the ball on explaining it to you... try seeing it from her perspective.
And now, that you have been 'forced' to pay (from her perspective with the contempt charges)... you apparently can come up with the cash all at once...
I can understand why she would be at least irritated with the situation and your actions.
I say this not to poke at you.. but to give you some perspective... because I know you are open to it
Peace
Bridge
Then, in preparation for the final resolution conference, some papers asked about child support arrearage, and my attorney's staff wrote "not applicable"...so I still believed that there was not a problem.
Bridge, I see what you're saying but the way I read it was he didn't know or wasn't told by anyone he had to pay. Why didn't she/her-attorney call or write to antler's attorney after the first 'missed' payment? why wait 3 months let alone 6!
I see you getting caught up in seeing only one side..
we've have heard Antler's side.. I understand WHY he didn't pay (as you have pointed out)... I wouldn't have paid either based on what his lawyers gave for advice.
HOWEVER it's not JUST about antlers.
It's also about HER perspective. He stated he didn't understand where her anger was coming from.
You asked "Why didn't she write or call??"
Our lawyers tell us (& the advice here) is DO NOT talk the D stuff directly to the ex spouse.. deal only with the lawyers.
Did she? who knows..
did her lawyer drop the ball on it? who knows...
maybe to her she was giving him ample opportunity to show his changes. SHE did not see the "Not applicable" writing from his lawyer to understand
End result TO HER: she had a court order for child support.. and despite antlers words of supporting & loving his family.. his action were to NOT pay until there were contempt of court chargers brought.
I would be pissed too, but perhaps I am the only one.
StupidRomeo and Bridgestone, thank you both for your posts. I appreciate your input.
I started paying after the final resloution conference (that's when my attorney made the order clear to me) and BEFORE there were contempt of court charges filed.
During this long separation (we were separated for 8 months before she filed for divorce), I continued to make her car payments, and I continued to make her car insurance payments. I wasn't bound to do these things. I've since paid her car off completely. During this time, I've also spent a couple of thousand bucks on clothing for the kids. I've continued to take care of my family as I always have, under the difficult circumstances that have been documented in the pages on this board.
She was pissed during the 8 month separation, from Feb. of 09 to Oct. of 09...while I was paying for her car and making her insurance payments (even though I wasn't required to). She was pissed when she borrowed my luggage to go on one of her ocean cruises, and then stole the luggage; she was pissed when she borrowed my expensive Craftsman drill to hang up something in her house, and then stole the drill, and she's been pissed since she filed for divorce last October, even before there was an order to pay child support...and she's been pissed ever since. She's basically been pissed since she left in Feb. of 09...and I have no doubt that she would've still been pissed had I understood the order and been paying since last November!
She started seeing changes in me before she left, and she saw plenty of changes in me during the separation...before she filed for divorce. Her anger sure isn't about not getting her 'child support'!
OK then..
She's pissed for no particular reason.
Hope you find a way to enjoy your week-end.
Peace
Bridge
She's pissed for no particular reason.
women! they don't need a particular reason to be pissed!
Only kidding Bridge!!
Antlers, how're you doing?
OK then..
She's pissed for no particular reason.
Hope you find a way to enjoy your week-end.
Peace
Bridge
I never said that Bridge. I just stated the facts.
I'm working in the ER this weekend. I'll make the best of it.
She's pissed for no particular reason.
women! they don't need a particular reason to be pissed!
Only kidding Bridge!!
Antlers, how're you doing?
I think people, some of em' anyway, are able to justify their actions...regardless of how mean, vindictive, and wrong they are. Destroying a family, destroying the only safety and security the kids have ever known...and then trying to take the kids away from the STBXS by whatever rotten means necessary, and also taking punitive actions designed to leave the STBXS destitute financially by whatever rotten means necessary...and being completely able to justify these actions in one's own mind...well, it's hard for me to understand that when it's being done by someone that once professed undying love for me...someone who I believed I would go through life with.
I'm doing great!
Actually, things are kinda rough. I'm doing my best, but damn...I really wouldn't wish this crap on a devout Nazi! Hurt and disappointment are the main emotions in my life right now. I keep thinking it'll get better, but so far, it continues to get worse. Found out today that my attorney charged me 400 bucks for the appraisal on the house! What a screw...pants on, no vaseline, and no kissing.
I'll make the best of it.
That's a great option.
(((antlers)))
Bridge
ant,
I think people, some of em' anyway, are able to justify their actions...regardless of how mean, vindictive, and wrong they are. Destroying a family, destroying the only safety and security the kids have ever known...and then trying to take the kids away from the STBXS by whatever rotten means necessary, and also taking punitive actions designed to leave the STBXS destitute financially by whatever rotten means necessary...and being completely able to justify these actions in one's own mind...well, it's hard for me to understand that when it's being done by someone that once professed undying love for me...someone who I believed I would go through life with......
Hurt and disappointment are the main emotions in my life right now. I keep thinking it'll get better, but so far, it continues to get worse.
No words of wisdom for you,man.
Just - I understand completely.
it's the hardest part, it /WILL get better! it just doesnt' seem like it now.
Bridge, StupidRomeo, Gardener, and cat03...thanks all for posting. I feel pretty 'beat up' right now. All this horribly bad crap going on, and the relationship I have with my attorney isn't a good one. I've got lots of money invested in the case already. She gets pissed off at me, talks down to me, and doesn't communicate well with me regarding the case...especially via e-mail. It's frustrating and disappointing. I don't understand it; I've even asked her about it via e-mail...no response. I just gotta get through this crap, and try to come out of it as well as I can.
Thank God my son is still with me. I feel like he and I are doing so much better. I'm still learning better ways to do things and handle different situations with him. It warms my heart for him to say "I love you dad" out of the clear blue. He is volatile...but I'm learning not to 'react'. I'm learning to wait until he calms down, and then saying very few words to him about the situation that pissed him off in the first place. People, I'm learning, aren't receptive to reason when they are pissed. So don't bother. The time that he and I have been spending together is overwhelmingly good. God, I've give a testicle if I could go back a few years knowing what I know now. His mom got mad at him because he wanted to stay with me, so she wouldn't give him back his MP3 player, his cell phone, his iPod Touch, his green security blanket (which he's slept with every night since he was a baby), his bathing suit, or his Nike high socks! It's been over 2 weeks and she still hasn't given him his stuff back. I'm seeing some of the sweet boy that was part of his character starting to come back out...he's gotten a lot of hard bark on him since his mother decided to leave. I miss my youngest daughter, and I miss my oldest daughter. The opposing side did not want to settle, they pushed for a trial...so now we have a trial date set for the end of July. My sons grandparents (on his mothers side) have been berating and belittling him on FaceBook for wanting to be with his dad. It bothers him a lot. I can't wait to pick him up after I get off tonight.
Sorry to hear it antlers.
Facebook- tell your son to de-friend them all...
I hear what you're saying about this divorce crap but you're getting closer to the end so hang in there. In probably less than 6 months time you'll be a free man! just hang in there and do your best.
Also, don't email her etc unless it's about the kids or a life threatening emergency. Please just go through the lawyers...she's no itentions of talking with you directly and you'll only keep getting hurt from having expectations from her...even about her responding. So go completely dark.
You'll be OK antlers, it may take time but you'll be OK. She's just showing her true colors like my STBXW and quite frankly it's helped me get over her emotionally because I was still hoping for a reconciliation but now I just want her out of my life so I can move on with my DD.
How old are your kids (sorry still haven't gone back to read your sitch from the start)
The relationship I have with my attorney isn't a good one. I've got lots of money invested in the case already. She (my attorney) gets pissed off at me, talks down to me, and doesn't communicate well with me regarding the case...especially via e-mail. It's frustrating and disappointing. I don't understand it; I've even asked her about it via e-mail...no response. I just gotta get through this crap, and try to come out of it as well as I can.
Just wanted to clarify that I was talking about my attorney here!
My son is 12, my daughter is 13, and my oldest daughter (hers from a previous marriage) is 21.
holy cow! antlers you need to fire her @ss now! she already screwed up big time getting you in more a tough situation that was completely unnecessary. antlers, I'm urging you to look for another attorney. I went through this myself and the new (law firm as opposed to a single dirt-bag) attorney's *much* better and I have access to other attorneys in the firm as needed. Please do this now before the trial. I know you've invested money into her (like I did) but a one time cost of $3-5k is well worth it to have someone that's good, willing to work with you and won't drop the ball.
Facebook- tell your son to de-friend them all...
I've just been listening to him when he wants to discuss it with me, and being supportive. I don't want to encourage him to de-friend his family members...if he wants to do that on his own, he can.
holy cow! antlers you need to fire her @ss now! she already screwed up big time getting you in more a tough situation that was completely unnecessary. antlers, I'm urging you to look for another attorney. I went through this myself and the new (law firm as opposed to a single dirt-bag) attorney's *much* better and I have access to other attorneys in the firm as needed. Please do this now before the trial. I know you've invested money into her (like I did) but a one time cost of $3-5k is well worth it to have someone that's good, willing to work with you and won't drop the ball.
I really don't know what to do at this point. I've been working with this attorney for 8 and 1/2 months...so you can figure that I've got a ton of money invested in the case, via this attorney, already! I'll lose it all, for naught, if I fire her. I can't take a financial hit like that, especially now. She does seem to have some animosity towards me. As I said, I don't understand it. And 400 bucks for a 20 minute appraisal on my 2000 square foot home was a total screwin'...IMO. She came highly recommended, and is well known in this area for her litigation skills. I do feel like she dropped the ball on the child support thing, and I wouldn't be in that trouble if she had been on top of things like she should have been. She's taken zero responsibility for it. I want her to put the effort into my case like she has for some rather notable cases in this area. I am dependant on her to a huge degree. I'm going to attempt to communicate with her again regarding the poor relationship that I feel exists between she and I.
ant,
holy cow! antlers you need to fire her @ss now!
I agree 100% with Romeo on this. You may lose what you've already dropped on her $-wise, but her actions - or inactions - may cause you to lose a lot more in this process.
and the relationship I have with my attorney isn't a good one.
She gets pissed off at me
doesn't communicate well with me regarding the case.
I've even asked her about it via e-mail...no response.
Broke this down into multiple quotes for emphasis.
Rethink this, ant.
I don't know what to do. I feel like, before I fire my attorney, I ought to try, once more, to touch bases with her and let her know how I feel, very specifically, about how things have gone so far. She seems like the type that, after I talk to her, she just might fire me!
I'm sorta up a stump with this. I've spent a TON of money already!
If you have spent a ton of money you should be getting good service. What about a meeting with the senior partner or somebody above your attny do express your displeasure?
I feel for you. All of *this* is hard enough w/o having to worry about your legal counsel.
I think about you all the time and wish you strength and peace.
1. If you have spent a ton of money you should be getting good service. What about a meeting with the senior partner or somebody above your attny do express your displeasure?
2. I feel for you. All of *this* is hard enough w/o having to worry about your legal counsel.
3. I think about you all the time and wish you strength and peace.
1. I should be getting better service than I have. The law firm is her's; she is the boss...there is nobody at this firm that is above her.
2. Thank You. You hit the nail on the head. All of 'this' is hard enough without having to worry about your legal counsel.
3. Thank You. Likewise.
My only other suggestion would be to call the Bar Association and see if they can advise you how to better communicate with your attny or what your legal options are.
I've got an appointment with her (my attorney) Wednesday afternoon. I'm gonna voice my concerns to her at that time.
I'll see how that goes, then go from there.
Incidentally, I found out today that if she wins full custody, the monthly amount that I'm paying now will increase by nearly 350%! By Oklahoma law!
That's her motivation right there!
antlers it is true that full child custody costs the other parent a lot. I think it's the worst possible financial outcome in a divorce. But more and more courts are trying to assign joint custody for the sake of the kids and I hope that's the case for you. You'll need to fight for it with all you've got starting with getting the right attorney. I'm sorry to push this but it's for your own benefit. Whatever gets decided you'll have to live with it for the rest of your life so do whatever it takes to get the best possible attorney you can find.
Mornin'.
I appreciate your posts. I pray to God that the courts will assign joint custody in my case for the sake of the kids. I reviewed all the opposing sides exhibits/evidence yesterday...saw specifically what she and members of her family (one's that communicated with me regularly during the separation) had and are doing to damage me. I'm feeling pretty low today because of all this. I don't know how I'll be able to make my house and truck payments, and live, if the courts award her full custody! A 350% increase above what I'm paying now will kill me financially. I've sent her 5 payments already and she hasn't cashed a single one of the checks! Damn it's hard for me to comprehend this from her after spending nearly 2 decades with her!
I'm gonna voice my concerns to my attorney Wednesday afternoon. Based upon how that goes, I'll make a decision regarding my legal counsel. I want to fight with all I've got, and I want to trust that my legal counsel will do the same. When I hired this lady, it was me getting the best possible attorney I could get. She's known around here as being a tenacious litigator...a pit bull! I'm not comfortable with how things have gone so far. So, I hope things can be resolved, or bettered, one way or another, as a result of our meeting tomorrow afternoon.
It would be very easy to be overwhelmed by the situation, the pain, disappointment, remorse, fear, grief...and all of the other negative emotions that go along with an awful situation such as this. I have to fight hard, daily, to not be overwhelmed by this. I hate it that things are this way.
Why is forgiveness from her so important to me...even in light of the things she's done and is continuing to do?
I've had true remorse, I repented, I shouldered what I had done, I apologized profusely, I tried to make amends and atone, I asked for forgiveness...and I changed.
And it has fallen on deaf ears.
I'm in a bad spot in this divorce, and I feel pretty much overwhelmed right now. Negative emotions, like those I posted earlier today, are consuming me right now. I'm getting some good exercise this morning, but it's odd to be jumping rope and hitting a heavy bag...and feeling profound grief, and even crying, while you're doing it.
I'm considering sending her an E-mail and asking her if we could 'stop' this adversarial war that is going on via the legal system because of the damage that it's doing to all of us?
Thoughts?
I'm considering sending her an E-mail and asking her if we could 'stop' this adversarial war that is going on via the legal system because of the damage that it's doing to all of us?
Thoughts?
Don't do it... I don't think she won't take it the way you intend it.
I'm sorry that what you read from her & her family was hurtful to you. I hope you can understand they provide one perspective and there are often multiple sides. And judges are skilled in exmmining all. I'm assuming that your legal team has similar statements to make your case for you.
What are you doing that is adversarial? It takes two to go to war. What indication do you have that "she" is being damaged by this process?
((antlers)))
Peace
Bridge
Maybe not. I'd just like for this 'scortched-earth' litigation to end. I've written her lots of stuff over the last 18 months, and it's all fallen on deaf ears.
My oldesr daughter had been gathering 'evidence' for her mother by copying FaceBook postings and texts from the little kids to her, and then giving them to her mother and her attorney. Her father had been forwarding communication between he and I to his daughter and her attorney. I hope the Judge is as skilled as you say, as far as examining all sides. I have provided much documentation to my legal counsel since she filed. I'm dependant to the GAL to help make my case for me. I saw the GAL back in February, and as of the final resolution conference a few weeks ago, the kids mother had yet to even see her!
The legal system we have is adversarial by it's very nature. Once the lawyers get involved, it gets that way. If someone's coming after you with everything they have, and they're trying to take everything that you have...it becomes a war. Maybe 'she' isn't! The GAL told me in February that if this thing goes to trial, "it's gonna be worse on everybody involved...you, the kids, her...everybody." I know that my kids are suffering, and that alone makes it harder on me. Maybe it doesn't bother her to see the kids damaged like they are. My son is currently at odds with his mother and her side of the family, and my daughters are at odds with me. It's an awful situation that continues to get worse. Her parents, and his big sister, have even been berating and belittling my son on FaceBook because he wants to stay with me!
Her parents, and his big sister, have even been berating and belittling my son on FaceBook because he wants to stay with me!
And I'm assuming you are printing those off & forwarding to your lawyer and the GAL as evidence?
My son shows them to me because it's upsetting to him. He doesn't want to print them off. And he deletes them after he shows them to me. I can't print them off because I don't do FaceBook. But I do send E-mails to the GAL and my lawyer describing what is going on. That's all I can do under the circumstances!
No one can force you to do what you don't want to do, but the best advice has already been given. Find a way to print them off....(suggestion) tell your son not to delete them until they are printed off. (strong suggestion)
Hint: I have been providing my atty with emails and Web sites for more than a year. She used one of them already in a hearing, and the judge ruled in my favor. (Not saying this was the tipping point, but it certainly helped persuade him, I'm sure).
This afternoon...
Me: Son, do you still have that stuff those people wrote to you on FaceBook that upset you?
Son: Yep, still have it.
Me: I wish you would make a copy of that stuff for me.
Son: How many copies do you want?
Me: One will be fine.
Me: Thank you son.
And later on this afternoon, the GAL called me and wants to set up an appointment to meet my son. I'll be taking those copies to give to her. My youngest daughter refers to me now by my first name! She doesn't say "dad"' she says "antlers"! She's heard her big sister doing it recently, so now she's started doing it. When she mentions me to others, it's "antlers" and not "dad"! That hurts.
I've got to handle him (my son) with kid gloves. He's so messed up because of the last 18 months, and especially because of the last 8 months.
My youngest daughter refers to me now by my first name! She doesn't say "dad"' she says "antlers"! She's heard her big sister doing it recently, so now she's started doing it. When she mentions me to others, it's "antlers" and not "dad"! That hurts.
to me that would be unacceptable and time for a boundary. your wife is teaching your daughters how to disrepect a man. you are those girls Dad & Father. this is a teachable moment between you and your girls. you can handle it. your daughters husbands will thank you for it down the road.
Cheers
Srtength and Honor
I can't teach them if I'm not around them.
I haven't seen my oldest daughter since last October. Her choice. She told me that night that I was still her dad and that I was the only dad she'd ever known.
I haven't seen my youngest daughter since she and her younger brother and I got back from Spring Break in mid-March. Her choice.
My oldesr daughter's mother has done a 'number' on her for the last 18 months, and especially for the last 8 months. My youngest daughter's big sister, and her mother, have done a 'number' on my youngest daughter for the last 18 months, and especially for the last 8 months.
They have been less successful with my son.
Hey sweetie. So sorry that you have had to suffer like this. You really fought hard to save the M! You have always been valuable to the board and you continue to be b/c you have learned so much from your personal experience. I hope you will read this Newcomer's post and perhaps give him the advise he needs. When I read it I immediately thought of my old friend Antlers....and I knew you were the man to talk to him.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2020975#Post2020975
I can't teach them if I'm not around them.
I haven't seen my oldest daughter since last October. Her choice. She told me that night that I was still her dad and that I was the only dad she'd ever known.
I haven't seen my youngest daughter since she and her younger brother and I got back from Spring Break in mid-March. Her choice
How come you don't see them? Don't you have a visitation schedule? Can that hurt you later if you don't?
My oldest daughter -21- is actually my STBXW's from a previous marriage. Her mother has schooled and encouraged her to where she doesn't want to see me.
My youngest daughter -13- has been greatly influenced by her mother and her older sister to where she doesn't want to see me either.
The petition papers say that the kids are supposed to spend about equal times with each parent, but it's not enforced...it's just a guideline. If the kids don't want to go, then they don't have to go.
There is no set visitation schedule. 'Hurting me later' is what my STBXW is counting on...and there's not a lot I can do about it currently.
They've been less successful with my son. He and I are spending good time together. I miss my girls, and it hurts, but it is what it is right now!
She has 'used' the kids as weapons against me.
Just some catching up...
The meeting that I had with my attorney a week and a half ago went really good. She put me at ease about a lot of things, and I feel very good about the situation (our case). I am very confident of her abilities after talking with her, and of her determination to fight for me and my best interests. I feel as good as one can under these dificult circumstances.
The meeting between the GAL and my son went well. She came to our house to meet with him. I didn't ask him anything about their meeting; I made myself scarce while they met.
My son is still with me. His mother's side had a family reunion a month ago, and he didn't want to go. I didn't influence him at all, but he wanted to stay with me. That really pissed his mother and her family off. That's when my son and his mom got into a fight in front of my house...because he didn't want to go with her. Her side had a big 4 day get together at the beach still going on, and he didn't want to go. I didn't influence him at all, but again, he wanted to stay with me. That pissed em' all off all over again. He and I just got back from a short trip to Texas and we squeezed a lot of fun into that short trip. I'm doing better with him than I've ever done. I've learned to not 'react'...I've learned that people aren't receptive to logic when they're pissed. He and I are really close right now. He is comfortable at our house.
I still wish things weren't the way they are...but they are. Trial is set for the 28th of July...not looking forward to that. She still hasn't cashed a single one of the child support checks I've given her. Still haven't seen my daughters in a long, long time. It's hotter than fire here this time of year, and the humidity sucks. The long distances I ride have been effectively cut in half because of this weather. But I'm still stayin' after it.
Last night my son was lying in bed with me for a few minutes, talking, and he told me..."Dad, do you remember when mom took me and (his sister) to the OU women's basketball game last season when they played UConn?" "I told mom that it didn't seem the same without you being with us, and mom got mad at me for that!"
I told him that I was sorry that he had to be on the receiving end of that. She and I used to take the kids to a lot of the OU women's home basketball games.
Later on, he came back in there, and laid next to me and said..."I don't care what mom says...I think you're a good father."
That was awesome! That's validation right there! That's coming straight from the source that matters! I gave him a big hug and thanked him for telling me that. He told me these things out of the clear blue!
^^ Antlers, that's great. Sorry you still haven't seen your Ds...they'll come around.
Glad to hear about the L too, keeping my fingers cross for you.
BTW, I came across this book that I recently ordered if you think it may help you with co-parenting:
The complete single father
...I think you're a good father."
Nice!
Cheers Mate
Antlers, that is awesome.
That basketball game struck a chord. This is the second straight summer I won't go with the girls to the family camp ground. It has a beach and MIL is too heavy and STBXW isn't a strong swimmer so I was the one always swimming with D11 to the dock -- out in the lake where you can climb up and jump in.
This summer D7 thinks she can make it to the dock, but she said she doesn't want to go without me.
I had no real answer. I said someday I'll swim to the dock with you.
Who cares what the ex says. It's what the kids say that's important.
^^ Antlers, that's great. Sorry you still haven't seen your Ds...they'll come around.
Glad to hear about the L too, keeping my fingers cross for you.
BTW, I came across this book that I recently ordered if you think it may help you with co-parenting:
The complete single father I hope they'll come around. I still text them regularly.
Thanks for the good thoughts. She really put me at ease. I think her reputation for being tough in the courtroom is accurate.
Thanks for the link. It'll be good...I've been looking at it online. Their mother isn't interested on coparenting, but I am committed to being the best father to them that I can be.
...I think you're a good father."
Nice!
Cheers Mate
Yep. Totally out of the clear blue from him! It made me feel something that I hadn't felt in a good while! My son got a lot of hard bark on him over the past couple of years, but I'm starting to see some of the heartfelt emotions come out from him again, and it's good to see!
Antlers, that is awesome.
Who cares what the ex says. It's what the kids say that's important.
Thanks. It made me feel so good to hear him say that to me.
The kids have it rough in these situations. God love em'! Yep...what the kids say is truly important! He and I seem to be doing really good right now.
"I can handle anything life brings before me. I will be just fine." - gucci loafer
Had to have this in my thread! Thanks gucci loafer!
I need to print it out and place it in the car, at my desk at work and home.
Thanks for sharing.
ant,
..."I don't care what mom says...I think you're a good father."
That, sir, is what it's
all about!
I hope they'll come around. I still text them regularly.
May I suggest laying off on the texting?
a) It's pursuing.
b) They may need to feel the consequences of their decision for a while (i.e.,) your absence.
All the best,
I missed the texting part but I agree with G. Perhaps text them on b.days only.
My son told me this morning, "I'm really enjoying spending my summer with you."
Gardener, you think I should lay off the texting to my girls? It's 'pursuing' to my girls?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Yesterday, I asked her, via text, "do you ever wish we'd moved to Boerne or San Antonio instead of coming up here?" (to Oklahoma)
Her response..."you ask me that...how many times did I try and talk you into going there after I started school and your parents renigged on helping us out? Regardless where we lived we would have ended up where we are now because I would have put up with your abuse towards me and the kids for only so long."
I replied simply, "when we know better, we do better. People can change."
She followed up with, "they may change but the damage they caused has already been done and cannot be erased. That damage goes deeper to the victims and it is with them for the rest of their lives. And you haven't changed a bit. Look at the major damage you've caused between son and me. Ever since he's been staying over there you've told him lies about me. That's the kind of damage that doesn't go away. 'My mom's done bad stuff to my dad that you don't know about' is what son told my mom. That's bs and you know it as well as I do. How can you sit there and tell me 'people can change' when you're still doing what you've done for years?"
I replied simply, "if I'd have known better, I'd have done better. I wish I'd have made these changes years ago. We would've been fine. I wish we'd have gone to the hill country instead of coming up here."
"I see how I hurt you and for that I am sorry. People make mistakes. Some people learn from them, they change, and become better people. The past, despite it's wrenching pain, cannot be unlived. That doesn't mean it can't be overcome. It can."
---------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, my son and I watched another movie last night, Grown Ups, and took a pretty good motorcycle ride today. We're gonna go watch fireworks tonight.
I miss her being the way she used to be, loving and caring towards me. That, coupled with the changes that I've made over the last 19 months...and we coulda been in tall cotton. I hate it that things are this way.
I've got no choice but to continue to let go and move on.
((antlers))
it is what it is
keep growing & moving along.. where you are is only temporary.
personally, texting the daughters shows he cares for them, as long as he isn't texting every day several times a day (that'd be creepy) a few times here and there with a simply 'hope you are having a good day' says tons... I know that if I were mad at my dad and being stubborn, secretly I'd still want to hear from him, to know that he thinks of me and it would contradict whatever crazed mom is saying about him not caring.
Thanks cat03.
I think too much of a good thing is not a good thing.
I agree with you.
Occasional texting, simple messages are OK.
I was texting them each one time per day for a little while.
I have cut back.
Today was the first time I had texted either one of them for 10 days.
Maybe once a week would be OK?
Son and I are still doing good; he's still staying with me right now...the GAL even came to our house and met with him here.
That boy stayed up at night and worked on the house for over 4 solid hours, cleaning it up and making it look nice for the GAL's visit. He did that on his own!
"It hurts to be rejected, especially for something that is at the core of your being." - Gypsy
Yep, it does. It's hard to deal with.
I've sort of gotten off track over the last 6 to 8 weeks. As the date of the trial draws nearer(July 28), I've been more depressed, and I haven't been as motivated to take care of myself as I have been. I feel a lot more stress and other negative emotions. I'm kinda strugglin'. I want to feel better.
For many years, she and I only had each other. Our families lived far away, and she and I worked and raised our kids without any help from anybody. We were the 'here' person for each other. I miss that.
I'm heading that direction as well. I found out today STBXW rejected our settlement offer and wants a pre-trial conference. I absolutely never wanted to sit in a court room across from STBXW arguing over how to end the M.
It looks like I'll have to. It's like an emotional trifecta nailing me in waves lately. Seeing an OM at my house two weekends ago, having my girls for a week and so feeling like a family again and then realizing a trial is in my future.
Antlers, it's all about attitude. Today is a great day. I played softball this morning. I'm back at work. I have a singles group that have things scheduled every week I'm free. I looked at my journal from last summer and I'm much better in every way than I was a year ago.
And yet ... I'm really, really, really down. Like you, she was my 'here' person. She was the one I really, really thought, deep down, would always be there for me.
I'm with you.
Antlers, it's all about attitude.
I know it is. Mine just sucks right now, and it has for about the past 6 to 8 weeks.
My son and I are going on vacation in a little over 2 weeks. I'm sure his mother will try to throw a wrench in the works once she finds out about it. I plan on letting her know about a week in advance (which happens to be a couple of days before the trial). She doesn't let me know ahead of time when she is going to take the kids out of state. I can't wait to get away. I'll be more than ready for it. He and I will be leaving 3 days after the trial.
antlers, I feel for you.
Yes this is hard but believe me you'll survive and later thrive. Jul 28th will pass and it'll be Jul 29th and you'll look back and say 'that wasn't as bad as I thought'...then you'll go on to think about other things. Us men have this nasty habit of putting all our emotional and physical energy into our spouses and families. When they're gone we're usually left with no one. That deep emotional connection is left severed. Women on the other hand can reconnect and 'talk' about stuff with their girlfriends that we have a hard time with. It's a widespread situation here and I'm in the same boat as you as well as many others.
Do take care of yourself, who else will especially right now? Hang in there.
about txting dds, once-twice per week should be fine, I bet a thousand bucks they wondered why you havn't text them...
When depression hits you go out there, run, do something physical, even if you want to curl up and mope, that's when you want to be on the move... use this horrible experience to make you stronger, you will, doesn't seem like, but you can grow stronger.
I think all the love songs and sappy movies teach us that the loved one should be our all, our everything, that nothing matters if they are gone... as with everything in this earth, we should hang to things/people loosely...nothing is ever for certain, nothing should define us in such a way that pulverizes us when they/it is gone... alas, we can only learn through experience.
Thanks.
My son and I are leaving for a road trip on July 31st. 'That' I am looking forward to. I'll be alright after all this is said and done, I believe that...I just hate like hell having to go through it. And I hate it that things are the way they are.
"Us men have this nasty habit of putting all our emotional and physical energy into our spouses and families. When they're gone we're usually left with no one. That deep emotional connection is left severed." - 'That' I can relate to also!
On Wednesday, I texted my youngest daughter with...
"Hi daughter. I hope you're having fun during the summer. Sure do miss you! And I love ya'.
She texted back...
"Thanks".
Then I later texted my oldest daughter with...
"Honey, I want you to know my criticism and wrong behavior in the past reflected how I felt about myself instead of how I felt about your mother, you, and the little kids. Some people learn from the mistakes they make, they change, and become better people. I wish I was 'then' what I am now. I love you, always did, always will."
She texted back...
"I understand your 'self-hate' in the past, but it takes time to heal, too. And if you're not wearing a helmet when you ride that motorcycle I'm gonna be pissed."
I've been doing a lot of physical activity over the past few days. Riding my bicycle a lot. Endorphins are a good anti-depressant.
"Ne te quaesiveris extra." - Emerson
Antlers, those are positive hopeful interactions with your kids. Just don't over do it...give them space and time and just casually check in once every other week or so or and let them know you're there for them. Let them come to you...slowly.
You're doing great...what kinda m/c do you ride?
I was kinda surprised...hadn't heard from them in a long, long time. I hear ya'.
Thanks. I ride a Honda VTX1800F.
VTX1800F - that's a big bike. I have a little NightHawk that I don't ride much at all...I'll be selling it after D. I used to spend a lot of time reading advrider.com - even wanted to buy a Suzuki VStrom or a BMW F1200GS and do a coast to coast trip and then up to Alaska! but it may have to wait until DD's grown up.
Ride ATGATT!
Yep, the VTX1800 is a torque monster! I enjoy that bike so much! I bought it so right that I get giddy every time I ride it. My friend bought a new Harley Fat Bob and, although it's a wonderful bike, he paid a ton for it...and it made him kinda sick when he found out how much more he paid for his bike than I did for mine! He really liked that VTX when it was sittin' next to his bike too!
Rode a charity bicycle ride this morning...we did 65 miles in awful heat and humidity, and over hills that were so tall they blotted out the sun! It was one of the hardest rides I've done. I rode it with some friends who also ride...good fellowship and comaraderie with good people.
My son is still with me.
wonderful news about your son and congrats on the bike ride!
Bridge
My son has been staying with me for quite a while now (his choice)...not as long though as my daughter has been staying with her mother. I haven't seen my daughter since the middle of March. I have pleaded with STBXW over these many months that she shouldn't be influencing and/or keeping my daughter from me. I have told her many times that I miss my daughter and that I want to see her. STBXW never responds to me regarding this.
Haven't heard from the kids mom since since July 3rd. Today I get this from her...
"You have and continue to destroy the bond son and I had with your lies, manipulation, and controlling behavior. You continue to hurt me and these kids because you are a selfish individual. The only thing you're sorry for is that we even got married and are financially bound. I want to see and talk to my son. This is one of the worst things you've done, however it doesn't surprise me that you'd do something so sick even to your own child".
How do I respond to that?
By making me responsible for everything, she makes herself responsible for nothing! She is doing, and has been doing, the very thing with our daughter that she accuses me of with our son! And she sees no problem with that!
Isn't there some hypocrisy there on her part?
How do I respond?
Antlers, that's a loaded email- don't take the bait. Remember cool, calm and collected.
"STBXW I'm sorry you feel that way. I will never want any of our kids to not speak to us nor will I ever tell them anything bad about you. I'll suggest to S to contact you."
I didn't respond to the first text from her...so she sent another one. Here it is...
"You have never given a crap about my family. You showed that every chance you got, especially when they would come and visit. Remember those fun times? When you made them feel so uncomfortable in our home. And you wouldn't even let them stay with us. Then when they would leave and say for us to come and visit...I knew good and well the next time I would see them was when they'd come back. And I'm sure they were planning their next trip seeing as how welcome you made them feel. And you continue to show you don't give a crap about them by keeping their grandson from them. Wonder how you would have felt if your parents kept you from your grandparents. Or how would your grandparents have felt if they weren't able to see you? And ironically you still 'are' now what you 'were' then".
Incidentally, her parents have both told me (during the separation) that they have forgiven me for being the way that I used to be. I've also apologized to my STBXW for 19 months straight...not only about this, but everything! Also, my parents, who live in the same town that STBXW and I both do, haven't seen my daughter since the beginning of last March for the same reasons that I haven't!
Again, isn't there some hypocrisy here on her part?
And again, how would I respond to this text?
The previous text was S related so I suggested replying but don't reply to this one...I guess she's having guilt trips and she's trying to convince herself that she made the right decision by rehashing all the past and blaming you for everything.
I didn't respond to the previous text either.
'IF' she is having guilt trips, and she's trying to convince herself that she made the right decision...is there anything I could communicate to her that would influence her to think that she made the wrong decision?
No, unfortunately there's nothing you can say that will make her think that way. The best you can do is adopt two approaches:
1. Ignore anything from her unless it pertains to your kids or finances until the D is done.
2. If you really want to and I don't think it's a good idea at this point you can validate her VERY briefly "I'm sorry you feel that way" - but then she'll respond and then you'll want to respond and it goes no where.
No, unfortunately there's nothing you can say that will make her think that way. The best you can do is adopt two approaches:
1. Ignore anything from her unless it pertains to your kids or finances until the D is done.
2. If you really want to and I don't think it's a good idea at this point you can validate her VERY briefly "I'm sorry you feel that way" - but then she'll respond and then you'll want to respond and it goes no where.
Well, I've validated her feelings for 19 months already. While it may have been good for me, and I felt that it was appropriate to do that for her, especially with me having been the way that I was...I honestly haven't seen that it accomplished a single good thing regarding the way she feels about me.
The trial is scheduled for next Wednesday.
ant,
Do not respond to such hate-spewing, demonizing baiting.
Well, I've validated her feelings for 19 months already...I honestly haven't seen that it accomplished a single good thing regarding the way she feels about me.
That'a one looong cheeseless tunnel, friend.
Peace,
ant,
Do not respond to such hate-spewing, demonizing baiting.
Well, I've validated her feelings for 19 months already...I honestly haven't seen that it accomplished a single good thing regarding the way she feels about me.
That'a one looong cheeseless tunnel, friend.
Peace,
May have been, but I felt like it was necessary...maybe not for 19 months...but she walked on eggshells for a helluva long time. That's a hard way for someone to have to live. I wish it would have done some good between she and I...but it didn't. She seems to hate me as much now as at any time during the last 19 months.
I was told by the GAL that a trial would be worse for me, worse for her, and worse for the kids. My attorney contacted them about mediation...with the hopes that a trial could be avoided. No go. She wants to go the scortched earth litigation route...the members of the shattered family be damned! Especially the kids. They are so shattered and torn. It's a shame.
Anyway, gotta 'man-up' for the trial, since it's just around the corner.
Don't worry about the trial too much, your L will be with you. To them it's a routine as well as for the judges. Besides she's probably feeling the same anxiety as you if not worse.
Hang in there...things will start to get better when the legal crap is over.
And again, how would I respond to this text?
You're right. You are always right. It is my fault. All my fault..
Now.. Get over it and leave me alone. Don't email me unless you can say it with respect. If you can't do that then I will immediately DELETE them..
LEAVE ME ALONE.
Ugh, Antlers. Those messages she sent you were quite cruel. don't get defensive if and when you do respond to her. Just be cool as a cucumber. As for your son, has he explained to her that he wishes to stay with you at the time?
Hi gucci,
I appreciate your input...always.
I still haven't responded to those mean texts from her.
Man, I wish I'd heard more from you along the way!
Ugh, Antlers. Those messages she sent you were quite cruel. don't get defensive if and when you do respond to her. Just be cool as a cucumber. As for your son, has he explained to her that he wishes to stay with you at the time?
Hello soleil.
Yep, she's been meaner n' hell ever since she left 19 months ago. No forgiveness in her heart at all! I won't get defensive if I do respond.
Yeah, he's made it clear to her that it's his choice to be with me at the time...she won't accept it. It makes her feel better to accuse me of "brainwashing him" and "lying to him" and "destroying the bond betwen them". She won't accept that it's his choice, plain and simple, and I haven't influenced him at all. She refuses to believe that she is at fault for anything whatsoever!
Man, I wish I'd heard more from you along the way!
Me too! or from Coach, RobX or Puppy...
Man, I wish I'd heard more from you along the way!
Me too! or from Coach, RobX or Puppy...
Yeah, I'd agree. Those guys all give good advice. Too often we communicate from a position of weakness as opposed to a position of strength. Strength of character, especially, are what these guys espouse.
ant,
And again, how would I respond to this text?
You're right. You are always right. It is my fault. All my fault..
Now.. Get over it and leave me alone. Don't email me unless you can say it with respect. If you can't do that then I will immediately DELETE them..
LEAVE ME ALONE.
ImprovedRomeo,
Are you formerly "StupidRomeo"?
She sent me this yesterday...
"I want to see my son. Please bring him over to my house on your next day to work."
I told my son what she said, and he didn't want to go over there. He wanted to go to his grandparent's house instead while I was at work. Keep in mind that she and our oldest daughter have been encouraging, successfully, my 13 y/o daughter to stay with them exclusively. They have been much less successful with my son, athough they have tried. I haven't seen my 13 y/o daughter since the middle of March, when we got back from Spring Break. And when she sends me these hateful texts, she NEVER mentions our youngest daughter, nor the fact that neither I, nor her grandparents, have seen her in over 4 months. I haven't encouraged, or 'schooled' my son at all. He is making his own decisions regarding this.
Just received the following test message from her...
"You didn't learn from your mistakes, you didn't change, and you didn't become a better person. The only person you love or know how to love is yourself. To this day you are still as selfish as the day I met you. If you have actually changed like you try and say you have, then you would not keep my son from me like you have. You know that he and I had a bond and you couldn't stand it because you weren't in control of it. Now that you have him away from me you have corrupted his little mind. You have told him lie after lie about me. And so has your family. He will one day realize it and resent you to the bone for it. You are a sick man. One day you will have your material crap but you'll still be sitting all alone with it and no one to share it with. You will never change. And you prove that more and more each day you keep our son from me."
See what I mean? Not one word was mentioned about our youngest daughter! Her hypocrisy is unfathomable! She accuses me of doing the very thing that she has been doing with our youngest daughter all along! And she always attacks me with the "you'll never change" stuff! She uses that as a weapon when she doesn't get her way!
I still haven't responded to this crap...but I'm tempted to!
You could just delete any messages from her and not read them if they upset you.
Will your son not even see her for short period, maybe dinner?
She does sound very angry and hurt.
1. "Will your son not even see her for short period, maybe dinner?"
He doesn't want to. I certainly don't want to force him to.
2. "She does sound very angry and hurt."
I am too! I haven't seen my 13 y/o daughter in over 4 months! She's being 'encouraged' and 'schooled' by my STBXW.
ps - She's trying to take the kids from me in court, and my son staying with me is really messing up her game plan.
HI Antlers,
Have you ever asked your attny how to respond to these types of messages?
As I learned in therapy when somebody reaches a *certain* psychological point no amount of validation will EVER work. Period. For over a year I validated my H up and down and all that did was give him a forum to bash, blame and emotionally abuse me to a point that was beyond cruel. When one reaches the point of emotionally abusing somebody (which I feel your W is doing) validation is fruitless.
Your W, my H were not emotional abusers prior to divorce but something in them clicked and put them on this path. My H's verbal abuse, manipulation and emotional blackmail became so bad my attny had to step in after talking to my psych. Nobody should have to endure that just to keep things "civil" during legal proceedings.
Just so you know, this type of treatment is VERY common among people who are guilty. So they don't feel remorse for their behavior they keep on slamming. It is very alarming to be on the receiving end. I put in an effort that was nothing short of REMARKABLE to deal with it until my attny decided enough was enough. Nobody should have to be verbablly abused and I don't care who says what about DB'ing. If validation leads to more abuse and tirades then you are dealing with something more than a WAS.
I always have you in my thoughts and will be sending you every bit of strength I have for your proceedings on Wed.
xoxox
CityGirl
I haven't seen my 13 y/o daughter in over 4 months! She's being 'encouraged' and 'schooled' by my STBXW.
Damn, ant, isn't there
something your L can do about this?
I haven't seen my 13 y/o daughter in over 4 months! She's being 'encouraged' and 'schooled' by my STBXW.
Damn, ant, isn't there
something your L can do about this?
Hi G.
The kids are of the age that they have a say-so as to where they want to stay. That's what my attorney, and the GAL both say. The trial is on Wednesday. Wife is trying to get custody of our kids so that I'll have to pay her triple the amount of child support that I'm already paying now. It's bad. It's scortched earth, no holds barred litigation...from her side.
I responded yesterday and said...
"Your hypocrisy is unfathomable."
She replies with...
"Can't stand for anyone to call your bluff can you?"
I said...
"I can't stand hypocrisy, and YOU are the epitome of hypocrisy. You've done the very thing with our daughter that you falsely accuse me of with our son."
She then said...
"Daughter's decision is solely based on your abusive behavior towards her and the favoritism you show towards son. Son's decision is based on the lies you've told him, especially about me, and you buying him stuff to stay with you".
The fact is that my daughter's decision is based upon 'encouragement' and 'schooling' from my STBXW and her family. They haven't been as successful with my son. He has been able to see through her lies, deceipt, and manipulation...and that of her family. His decision (and it is totally his decision) is based solely upon the way she is 'now' compared to the way that I am 'now'.
Hey ant..
Sorry to read that things are still so contentious; that your children are stuck in a tug of war over which they have no control.
Cuz.. really. They are the children. You are the adults. You would not give them carte blanche to set their own curfews, decide to start driving, drinking, play roulette with loaded firearms, watch or buy porn.
Kids at this age aren't mature enough. Kids need both parents.
And each parent who's unable to see their child accuses the other parent of the same type of manipulation.
Something is extremely unbalanced when children below the age of driving have the control to eliminate a parent from their lives.. at least a non abusive, danger to their well being one.
With that said, it's probably to your advantage if your son continues to stay with you. After all, possession is 9/10th's of the law. And if this estrangement continues consider having something written in about siblings being able to have time together without worrying about being 'snatched' by the other parent.
In this contest of wills, no one wins. Don't respond or try to explain things to your divorcing spouse. Toss in the validation (I can understand why you feel that way) and let it go. This is a cheeseless tunnel coated with explosives.
Here's something from FIB's thread by Bworl:
"The important thing here FIB is that you WANT a close and regular relationship with your children. If you want it, you will find a way, through time and trial and error, to have as close a relationship as you can have given the situation.
I feel for everyone who lose that every day contact with their kids as a result of divorce or separation. The truth is that there is no perfect answer in these situations, which simply emphasizes again the sanctity of marriage and why it is important to do everything possible to keep a marriage healthy, viable, and lasting."
"Again I will say that your children will never doubt that you WANT to be in their lives each and every day. While that does not fill your empty times, it does mean that your children will never be without their father, whether present with them or right at the front of their heart."
*hugs*
HI Antlers,
Have you ever asked your attny how to respond to these types of messages?
As I learned in therapy when somebody reaches a *certain* psychological point no amount of validation will EVER work. Period. For over a year I validated my H up and down and all that did was give him a forum to bash, blame and emotionally abuse me to a point that was beyond cruel. When one reaches the point of emotionally abusing somebody (which I feel your W is doing) validation is fruitless.
Your W, my H were not emotional abusers prior to divorce but something in them clicked and put them on this path. My H's verbal abuse, manipulation and emotional blackmail became so bad my attny had to step in after talking to my psych. Nobody should have to endure that just to keep things "civil" during legal proceedings.
Just so you know, this type of treatment is VERY common among people who are guilty. So they don't feel remorse for their behavior they keep on slamming. It is very alarming to be on the receiving end. I put in an effort that was nothing short of REMARKABLE to deal with it until my attny decided enough was enough. Nobody should have to be verbablly abused and I don't care who says what about DB'ing. If validation leads to more abuse and tirades then you are dealing with something more than a WAS.
I always have you in my thoughts and will be sending you every bit of strength I have for your proceedings on Wed.
xoxox
CityGirl
Hello CityGirl. I always appreciate your straight talk and logical posts.
I've talked with my L about it some, and she said it'd be more trouble than it was worth at the time...more expense and legalese. Now, we're so close to the trial, that it doesn't matter at this point.
I agree. I validated her for 19 months, and I honestly don't think it did one bit of good. She reached a certain psychological point, just as you said, that validation was fruitless...she was completely different from the person that I've known for 2 decades. She has used my validation to bash and blame me without taking any responsibility for anything herself. It's been hard for me to understand...hard for me to get my brain around how she could be this way. To know that you experienced the same thing kinda helps me understand.
Nope, she was completely different before she made the decision to leave. I do believe, as you said, that something in her 'clicked' and put her on this path. It's like she is hell bent on doing this, regardless of the consequences, regardless of the damage to our kids. She has in fact put forth more effort to make it much worse than it should have been...for everybody involved. And she doesn't seem to be bothered by it at all. Again, hard for me to understand how she could be this way.
I've wondered if she feels guilty...about anything! She sure seems to be 'driven'. Heartless! And I've thought that maybe she needs to be this way in order to 'justify' her decisions...to continue to 'convince' herself that what she is doing is right. Or, as you say, so she doesn't feel any remorse she just keeps on being mean. I've dealt with it quite well, I believe...but all of my validation has just led to more attacks and hatred on her part. Your explanation, and take on this kind of behavior, kinda helps me get my brain around it. Could you clarify...what else would one be dealing with in a situation such as this besides a WAS?
Thank you for sending good thoughts my way, especially for the trial on Wednesday. I need it. I hope and pray that she doesn't get full custody of our kids. I'll send some good thoughts your way too CityGirl. Thank you for your post to me.
antlers
"What's wrong with sitting home alone?
You're only alone if you don't like the person you're with...think about it.
You must get to a place where you are okay with being alone before trying to enter into a relationship. Otherwise, you come across as "needy" and "desperate" and those are the exact kinds of people you will attract.
Remember, you don't attract what you want, you attract what you are. That might be hard to hear, but it's true." - Golfgirl1
Saw this on Gardener's thread and I liked it.
I found this on Gardener's thread also...
Keep telling yourself that you can heal from this.
You are a good person.
No one deserves to be abandoned.
Nothing you did warranted this kind of
treatment from the woman who promised
to love you.
The issue is within your wife.
It is a flaw in her that has caused
her to walk out on you.
You do deserve better treatment.
It is better to be alone and happy
than to be with someone who
would choose to leave you."
Susan J. Anderson
The Journey From Abandonment To Healing.
Hi Gypsy.
Yeah, things are very contentious...and the kids are stuck in a tug of war over which they have no control. But it's a tug of war waged by their mother, and the kids are innocent victims of this war. I didn't want it...but I'm gonna fight with everything I can for my kids...to keep her from taking them away from me.
It's hard for me to understand how mean she is now...how she's hell bent on destruction, especially concerning the kids, and causing me pain and financial difficulty. She's certainly different than I've ever known her to be.
Hi Gypsy.
Yeah, things are very contentious...and the kids are stuck in a tug of war over which they have no control. But it's a tug of war waged by their mother, and the kids are innocent victims of this war. I didn't want it...but I'm gonna fight with everything I can for my kids...to keep her from taking them away from me.
It's hard for me to understand how mean she is now...how she's hell bent on destruction, especially concerning the kids, and causing me pain and financial difficulty. She's certainly different than I've ever known her to be.
Its common. The WAS because they are not in the wrong, will turn things around on the LBS. I feel miserable, it MUST be you.
Its amazing that you can get cheated on for getting cheated on, and in the end you become the scapegoat for everything.
Antlers, you're going through a rough patch and I know things will smooth out after the D is done. You're doing a great job of keeping your priorities straight. I really don't think you should engage in any kind of texting wars with STBXW, it'll only make you both further upset. Just bite your tongue and let it be at least until the D is done or I suppose you could just tell her to leave you alone without discussing anything else like Gucci suggested. You should tell her you're done, you've accepted the current situation and you'll be fine. When we keep engaging them it feeds the fire and they think we're still hurting and we're in pain which furthers their excitement. At least that's my logic.
I know your court date is coming up in a couple of days, be strong, yes it's a bit awkward and strange but you'll be OK!!!
She absolutely refuses to accept any responsibility for anything, especially the damage she's done since she left...especially to the kids. Our children are emotional wrecks...she doesn't want to hear of it. She's bound and determined to do as much damage as she can to hurt me now...and damn the torpedos! The consequences and repeurcussions mean nothing to her.
Good afternoon.
I feel pretty good right now. Got up early and took a 42 mile bicycle ride...got the endorphins bathing my gray matter. Yeah, it's been especially rough the closer we've gotten to the trial date. I hope things smooth out and get better. My son and I are doing really good together. I don't want any kind of war with her, but she texts me this crap...she's doing the very thing with my daughter that she falsely accuses me of doing with my son! I did send gucci's text to her...didn't matter, as she just kept on. She wants out of my life, and she wants our kids out of my life, and it pisses her off to no end that my son is preferring to be with me.
"You should tell her you're done, you've accepted the current situation and you'll be fine."
I plan on doing that when the time is right.
"When we keep engaging them it feeds the fire and they think we're still hurting and we're in pain which furthers their excitement."
I agree with what you say here. I think she gets some kind of satisfaction knowing that I still care. She likes to be able to hurt me now.
Yeah, it's (the trial) coming up in a couple of days. I hope I come out of this thing OK...she wants full custody of the kids, and she wants to devastate me financially and emotionally. I'm fighting it every step of the way.
Good afternoon.
I feel pretty good right now. Got up early and took a 42 mile bicycle ride...got the endorphins bathing my gray matter. Yeah, it's been especially rough the closer we've gotten to the trial date. I hope things smooth out and get better. My son and I are doing really good together. I don't want any kind of war with her, but she texts me this crap...she's doing the very thing with my daughter that she falsely accuses me of doing with my son! I did send gucci's text to her...didn't matter, as she just kept on. She wants out of my life, and she wants our kids out of my life, and it pisses her off to no end that my son is preferring to be with me.
"You should tell her you're done, you've accepted the current situation and you'll be fine."
I plan on doing that when the time is right.
"When we keep engaging them it feeds the fire and they think we're still hurting and we're in pain which furthers their excitement."
I agree with what you say here. I think she gets some kind of satisfaction knowing that I still care. She likes to be able to hurt me now.
Yeah, it's (the trial) coming up in a couple of days. I hope I come out of this thing OK...she wants full custody of the kids, and she wants to devastate me financially and emotionally. I'm fighting it every step of the way.
All of this is part of her pleasure. They key is you have to let her go. Think about how life is going to be where you don't have such a negative force in it. Also know that there are other women out there who will value you just as you are, happy to take what you have to offer and who will want to give to you.
Let the wife go, and the pain goes away. Once you distance yourself from her, her attacks will have no effect on you. Some of the attacks use so many manipulations that it really is crazy, and its funny to look at.
ant,
I did send gucci's text to her...didn't matter, as she just kept on.
Then could you text her and inform her that you now immediately delete all texts from her unread?
Non-diatribe (e.g., kid, D business, etc.) info should be emailed or a phone call. Because, if texted, they won't be read.
Worth a shot?
Also know that there are other women out there who will value you just as you are, happy to take what you have to offer and who will want to give to you.
Let the wife go, and the pain goes away. Once you distance yourself from her, her attacks will have no effect on you.
Hi DLS.
I believe that, it just takes time for these things to come about.
I hope so. I'm ready.
Hi G.
Well, my attorney called this evening and said that they accepted our offer to try mediation, at the last minute. So, no trial tomorrow.
WOOOOOHOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I told you antlers, if her attorney is any good your case shouldn't go to trial AND she's probably as concerned about it as you if not more!!
I'm so happy for you!!!
Thanks man. A trial is still possible though, if we aren't able to come to an agreement on the issues in mediation. But, instead of going to trial tomorrow, I'm gonna be taking a good long bicycle ride in the morning with a couple of friends. I'm looking forward to that.
Hi G.
Well, my attorney called this evening and said that they accepted our offer to try mediation, at the last minute. So, no trial tomorrow.
Good to hear.
Hi Antlers,
I am happy that she is agreeing to mediation. I would guess that her lawyer convinced her that she will not get a better deal going to court than you are offering and to go to mediation.
I hope it can be worked out & that you both can put this behind you & move along in rebuilding your lives.
Sitting in a mediators office will also give you a chance to show her the new you and an impartial party will not allow 'abuse' by either of you towards the other in any form, including disrespect.
My thoughts & prayers are with you.
Peace
Bridge
My thoughts & prayers are with you.
Me too Antlers. Glad that you got some relief from the immediate stress.
Cheers
ant,
Sitting in a mediators office will also give you a chance to show her the new you and an impartial party will not allow 'abuse' by either of you towards the other in any form, including disrespect.
Bridge is right. I found it's also true that the same dynamic that got you there and the same tensions that exist right now are gonna fill that room.
That was my experience, anyway.
Hi Bridgestone.
I am too. Don't know how it'll go, but it's worth a shot. I'd like to avoid a trial.
I hope that it can be worked out to.
I don't know if we'll be in the same room or not when we go to mediation.
I appreciate your good thoughts.
Thank You.
My thoughts & prayers are with you.
Me too Antlers. Glad that you got some relief from the immediate stress.
Cheers
Hi Coach.
Thank you for your good thoughts.
I did get some relief...man, I've been under a bunch of stress over the last couple of months. Yesterday, instead of going to trial, I did a 55 mile bicycle ride with a couple of friends instead. It was nice. Got the ol' endorphins going.
Been gettin' nastygrams from her recently..."the only person you love is you", and stuff like that, especially when I tell her how much I love our kids. "I will NEVER forgive you for telling the kids the LIES that you have. I'm done talking to you".
My response..."I'm done period. I've accepted the current situation and I'll be fine".
ant,
Sitting in a mediators office will also give you a chance to show her the new you and an impartial party will not allow 'abuse' by either of you towards the other in any form, including disrespect.
Bridge is right. I found it's also true that the same dynamic that got you there and the same tensions that exist right now are gonna fill that room.
That was my experience, anyway.
I dunno if we'll be in the same room or not. Not really looking forward to it, but I'd really like to avoid a trial. There is still, apparently, a tremendous amount of hatred that remains on her part.
I am so pleased you did not have to endure a trial. Like you, my H and his legal counsel waited until the 11th hour to inform me and my counsel they did not want a trial nor a divorce. It's a relief yet hell when an attny and a WAS decides to play on emotions.
Since your situation is so volatile I would bet that you and your W will be in separate rooms and the mediator will move from room to room during negotiations. I assume your attny will be present during mediation?
Her hatred is HER problem. Maybe one day she will see that her choice to remain in the cycle of hatred has yielded her nothing more than damaged children and relationships. Or maybe not. Either way you are a good man.
Almost three years later my H is now back to sending me very nasty texts and e-mails. I equate it to a petulant child who can't seem to find their way and is too spoiled to realize "finding their way" takes work. His self proclaimed happiness sure is cluttered with lots of anger and insecurity. Sounds an awful lot like your W.
I am so pleased you did not have to endure a trial. Like you, my H and his legal counsel waited until the 11th hour to inform me and my counsel they did not want a trial nor a divorce. It's a relief yet hell when an attny and a WAS decides to play on emotions.
Since your situation is so volatile I would bet that you and your W will be in separate rooms and the mediator will move from room to room during negotiations. I assume your attny will be present during mediation?
Her hatred is HER problem. Maybe one day she will see that her choice to remain in the cycle of hatred has yielded her nothing more than damaged children and relationships. Or maybe not. Either way you are a good man.
Almost three years later my H is now back to sending me very nasty texts and e-mails. I equate it to a petulant child who can't seem to find their way and is too spoiled to realize "finding their way" takes work. His self proclaimed happiness sure is cluttered with lots of anger and insecurity. Sounds an awful lot like your W.
Thank You...me too, I'm glad we didn't have a trial yesterday...and I hope we don't have to have one period! It does almost seem like it was done intentionally that way...at the last minute.
I would rather she and I be in separate rooms with the mediator moving from room to room during negotiations. Nope, I don't think my attorney will be there.
I appreciate you saying that I'm a good man. I'm definately a better man, and certainly a better father, than I've ever been. And I agree with what you say about her hatred being her problem...and the fact that so far it has only yielded damaged children. Although she assures me that she is "happier than I've been in 15 years". She now has bleach blond hair, has lost significant weight, does FaceBook, and Zumba, etc., all big changes.
Her self-proclaimed happiness is cluttered with lots of anger for sure!
ant,
I would rather she and I be in separate rooms with the mediator moving from room to room during negotiations.
If not, then request it. Should be no problem. Insist if you have to.
I appreciate you saying that I'm a good man. I'm definately a better man, and certainly a better father, than I've ever been.
For months, I've witnessed a good decent man and a
very loving father grow - painfully - as a person.
As we all have.
Y
ou are a good person, ant:Keep telling yourself
that you can heal from this.
You are a good person.
No one deserves to be abandoned.
Nothing you did warranted this kind
of treatment from the woman who
promised to love you.
The issue lies within your wife.
It is a flaw in her that has caused
her to walk out on you.
You do deserve better treatment.
It is better to be alone and happy
than to be with someone
who would choose to leave.
Susan Anderson
The Journey From Abandonment To Healing
Peace,
Hi Gardener.
If it's not set up for us to be in separate rooms, then I will request it...I hope it won't be a problem.
Thank You G. I've seen this from an earlier post of yours and I really like it.
My son and I are going on a vacation...a last big 'hurrah' before school starts. My son is stoked! Although she takes the kids to Texas and doesn't inform me, I feel like I should let her know that he and I are heading out west (we're going to Las Vegas). He will miss his school registration, as will many other kids who are still on summer vacation that day, but I've already talked to them and they said it's OK because he can just come and register when he gets back. I'd like to run this text by you guys before I send it to her...
"Son and I are leaving Saturday morning (July 31) to go on vacation. We will return on Wednesday (August 11). We are going out West (Las Vegas). I've already talked to the school district about his registration and they said 'no problem, he can register when he gets back'."
Whaddya folks think? Good enough?
Could you guys give me some feedback on the above message please? I wanna see what ya'll think about before I send it. Thanks.
I think it's good. And you let her know you've already talked to the school which is great.
Thank You soleil for your feedback. I'll send it this evening.
My son and I are still on vacation. The night before we left, he and I were coming out of the store and we ran right into STBXW and her mother. They both completely ignored me...like I wasn't even there. Son didn't have much to say to either of them. We left after a couple of minutes.
He and I drove to Las Vegas...1150 miles...a road trip. We've been having a good time. He's enjoyed the spectacle of this place.
I really think he prefers to stay with me these days because of what I've become...compared to the way his mother is now. Instead of accepting this truth, she continues to blame me for "lying to him" about her.
She continues to assert that she "did nothing wrong". Yeah right...ripping apart his family, trying to take he and his sister away from their dad, trying to destroy his dad financially, not to mention the cheating and lying...she's convinced herself that none of these things have an adverse effect on him or his sister!
My son and I are going out to the dam today, then he wants to go check out some more of these huge hotel/casino complexes.
I treasure the time that he and I have been spending together. More challenges are ahead as school will be starting for him, and I go back to work, and the legal proceedings pick back up.
I haven't had any kind of relationship since she left. I am 'still married'. I don't want to have to be validated by another person. I don't want to approach another relationship from a position of neediness or weakness. I want to approach it from a position of strength.
I wish things weren't this way, but they are.
ant,
Enjoy the rest of what sounds like a wonderful trip!
I haven't had any kind of relationship since she left. I am 'still married'. I don't want to have to be validated by another person. I don't want to approach another relationship from a position of neediness or weakness. I want to approach it from a position of strength.
I wish things weren't this way, but they are.
^^^This^^^
Ditto.
Healthy.
Peace,
See, as a woman (female, lady.... whatever term suits you
the quote that is above from Antlers is EXACTLY what I would want from a man! So IMO you are right where you should be Antlers.
I think it's SUCH an important outlook to have. IMO it's not *always* about being on the rebound but more about NOT needing validation from somebody else. If you feel needy or clingy even for a second (generally speaking) then you (generally) should not even be dating. No way!
I have realized this tenfold and I think it's only recently that I really *get* it. I will NEVER again under ANY circumstance involve myself with a man on ANY level that is weak and unsure how to be a leader in a R. I get that in R's sometimes one person has to do more "work" but really, that should be very specific pockets of time.
When I think of how much burden my H dumped on me (and more important how I did it ALL thinking it was making me a good wife) I could vomit.
I certainly don't want an a-hole but I will never even consider being with a weak man again. So YAY for you - that statement alone pretty much cements the what we ALL knew all along... you are a good man that "gets" it. And you know what? It doesn't matter how long it took you to "get it" because what matters is you do now.
Enjoy the rest of your trip!
Antlers,
I have no doubts that at some point in the future you will be ready for a new R as the new Antlers... confident, compassionate, with good boundaries & healthy self-respect and respect for others.
I am glad you & your son are having a wonderful time on vacation. I too am enjoying each & every day I have my D16 with me (I have 12 left until she goes back to her Dad's for school).
Something I 'd like to ask you and you can answer it here or on my thread.. your choice (or not at all even!).
when the time comes where you do find yourself exploring the dating world again... and the question is asked... why did your wife leave you?
How will you answer that? And what do you expect their response to be to your answer?
I ask because I hear my XH tell me in one breath he is a relationship disaster and shouldn't be with anyone (but is making no moves to work on himself in IC) but his FB page has him looking for friendship, dating & a relationship.
I know my D16 has talked with him about dating and sprucing up his waredrobe so he is more 'in style' for dates. but I can't help but wonder... when a woman asks (& we do ask),
why did your wife leave you after 22+ years of marriage?
what will he tell her? What would you tell her? And if you & he tell her the truth.... what would you expect her response to be?
Peace
Bridge
Hi Gardener.
We spent half a day at Hoover Dam yesterday. He was pretty interested in it...how they accomplished what they did. We've had some fun. I've drank more Pina Coladas in the past 9 days than I have in the past 9 years! He's been drinking 'unleaded' ones. And sushi...wow! I think they could detect sushi in my blood right now.
People are attracted to other people who are strong. Superficially, they are attracted to people who they find 'pleasing to the eye'. But deeply, they like to be in the presence of people who are strong. The superficial attraction is short-lived...but the deep attraction is the long-lasting one. I choose to be strong, not because I think it will make me attractive to others, but because I believe that is the best way for me to be...period. I believe that is the healthiest way for me to be...period. If being strong produces any 'fringe benefits', then so be it. This is how I feel.
"Do not seek outside yourself" - Emerson
I appreciate your support Gardener, and I hope you are doing well.
Hi CityGirl.
Your input is really appreciated by me. Thanks. You're always a straight-shooter who has both feet on the ground.
It makes sense to me that whatever I depend on for my happiness will always end up controlling me, and if I feel like I 'have to' be involved in a relationship in order to be happy, then the approval of that other person will control my self-esteem...and I don't want how another person views me to dominate the way I view myself.
And I don't want to make any big decisions based on feelings. I want them to be based on wisdom.
There is wisdom in your words CityGirl, and I appreciate your input and feedback. I hate like he'll that things are the way they are...but they are. I'm nearly 50 years old. I never figured that my family would be ripped apart, nor that all my hopes and dreams for she and I, and our kids, would be destroyed...but they have been.
Strong, powerful, secure, confident, compassionate, resiliency, persistence and
determination...these are all words I want to live by.
I think "straight shooter" is a fancy way of saying I have a big mouth
I really do agree with everything you are saying. Experiences and the people we allow in our lives may reshape us to a degree but I think the foundation that is US needs to be pretty solid before any of that can happen.
I have learned destruction leads us to the opportunity to rebuild. It presents us with the option to keep the very best parts of ourselves and discard the pieces of us that put us in this terrible position to begin with.
Reinvention is a gift that everybody always seems to want. When it is forced it's difficult but still a gift.
There isn't one aspect of *this* that is wrapped up in one neat package. But lots of shreds still equal something much larger than perhaps we can see right now.
Being alone is a good thing and really, not many adults get the opportunity to really be alone and learn about themselves and life with so much experience to draw on. Sometimes the greatest gifts are born from the greatest pain.
CG,
Great post.
Every sentence (except the first one)
is cogent, insightful and a gem.
Thanks.
Peace,
Being alone is a good thing and really, not many adults get the opportunity to really be alone and learn about themselves and life with so much experience to draw on. Sometimes the greatest gifts are born from the greatest pain.
I like the word "solitude" because it doesn't imply being "lonely".
You go out with your friends and family sometimes, but you have time to just be you and do you stuff. It isn't bad, is it?
Now if we can just convince the people who either won't let go or who go off on an immediate rebound...
J/K, they'll learn soon enough
TH,
Being alone is a good thing.
I like the word "solitude" because it doesn't imply being "lonely".
I'm with you. I also like "quietude." In fact, most words that end in the suffix, "tude" (state of or condition of) are usually darned good words: fortitude, gratitude, etc.
Peace,
when the time comes where you do find yourself exploring the dating world again... and the question is asked... why did your wife leave you?
How will you answer that? And what do you expect their response to be to your answer?
Hi Bridgestone.
When that time comes, especially if I'm just 'dating' someone, I doubt I'd go into much detail. I'd probably say "because sometimes they don't last" and let that suffice.
I can remember when my STBXW asked me that early on in our relationship about a previous relationship I'd had...and I remember saying "because sometimes they don't last"...and sufficed. She didn't ask anymore.
I think the importance of what I've learned matters to me, deeply, and what matters to others is that I am the way that I am...period. Most people aren't interested in the details, and it's not necessary for them to know them.
I don't think that 'reliving' the past with a potential new mate is necessary. It might even come across as still being emotionally invested in it, instead of having 'let it go'.
I know how I got here, what I went through, what I learned, how I changed, etc.. That matters to me. What I've become, what I am...that matters to others.
I will say that it's hard for me to imagine, at this point, caring for another the way I cared for her. Being with someone, and enjoying their company...yeah, I can see that. But caring for another the way I cared for her...I don't see it.
I have learned destruction leads us to the opportunity to rebuild. It presents us with the option to keep the very best parts of ourselves and discard the pieces of us that put us in this terrible position to begin with.
Being alone is a good thing and really, not many adults get the opportunity to really be alone and learn about themselves and life with so much experience to draw on.
Sound wisdom.
Agreed.
Hey Ant,
It is good to catch back up with your sitch, and see that you are doing well! In reading your last few pages, you sound like you are getting to a good place.
Just some thoughts on your recent post.
I don't think that 'reliving' the past with a potential new mate is necessary. It might even come across as still being emotionally invested in it, instead of having 'let it go'.
I don't feel you have to 'relive' your past, nor do you have to regret it, as you can't change it. What you can do, though is use your past to shape your future, something I think you are doing now. I am going to call it 'experience'
Recalling it, even fondly at times does not necessarily mean you have not 'let it go' but that you have accepted it for what it is. Your past. Uniquely yours, and what has built the current Ant.
Most people aren't interested in the details, and it's not necessary for them to know them.
Some may not be, and other's may. Some may want to know what makes the 'real' Ant, and those details may be part of it. Don't fear opening up to people, it's called 'intimacy' for a reason, and sharing deep, profound feelings with someone whom you care for, and whom cares for you can take a relationship, romantic or not, to deeper levels.
I will say that it's hard for me to imagine, at this point, caring for another the way I cared for her. Being with someone, and enjoying their company...yeah, I can see that. But caring for another the way I cared for her...I don't see it.
Understandable, but never say never.
The way I look at my past with STBXW, why would I want to have the same caring/relationship? That didn't work out at all, but maybe I can have a different, and even better one in the future.
(PS, I have already had some of this above, and truly enjoying things in ways I didn't think were possible just a year ago..)
Take care Ant, hope to keep caught up with you!
Hi IWITW.
It's good to hear from you, and to get your feedback. I understand your position, and I don't disagree with it. What I mean is...it's not necessary for someone to know that I was once an angry, resentful, and abusive person...a man who despised himself and took it out on those he loved.
If they know that I went through a bad separation and divorce, and came out of it a better man...I believe that'll suffice.
As CityGirl said earlier, these awful periods in our lives allow us to retain the good parts of ourselves, while getting rid of the bad parts of ourselves that got us into these terrible positions to begin with.
I too thought I wouldn't find anyone I care about as deeply as STBXW, but I'm looking back with clearer vision and it was a very one-sided relationship. She cared almost nothing about my life. She never asked about my day, what I was working on, how my friends were.
So if I find someone who is as into me as I am into her -- meaning she wants to know what's going on with me and my life and not just how I can make her life easier -- then I'll be like a man in the desert finding an oasis.
What I'm sad about is that STBXW is central to my life. She's most of my 20s and all of my 30s and the relationship failed. So as I get older and look back it'll always be with the realization that it didn't work.
That I can't change.
Hang in there Antlers. I'm proud of you and the changes you have made.
Kevin
Hi CTH.
I know what ya' mean.
There may be someone in my future that I can enjoy being with...someone that I can care about...someone who cares about me. And I'll welcome that.
I'm just sayin' that I cared for her with my heart and soul...I wanted to be with her until I died, and I can't imagine caring about someone else to 'that' degree.
Thanks Kevin.
I feel good about it too.
I wish I had known then what I know now.
Whaddup wichya'?
I'm just sayin' that I cared for her with my heart and soul...I wanted to be with her until I died, and I can't imagine caring about someone else to 'that' degree.
No doubt I think a lot of us feel that way. Nobody ever gets M'ed thinking they will D one day...
Well, my son and I are back home. We left Las Vegas and drove straight through all the way back to Oklahoma. I am whipped from that drive...18 hours driving time!
We had a blast. We were there for 10 days! That's a long time to be in Vegas if you don't live there! I drank more Pina Coladas in the past 9 days than I have in the past 9 years! My son drank them too (the 'unleaded' version). And sushi...I ate so much sushi out there I think you could detect it in my blood!
He really enjoyed the 'spectacle' of Las Vegas. He also enjoyed seeing, and going down inside of, Hoover Dam.
Yesterday after we got back, I went and got him registered for school for the coming school year.
Don't know how things are gonna play out...I'm just doing my best. I really enjoyed spending all this time with my son while we were on vacation (he enjoyed it too).
What part of Oklahoma. I lived in Oklahoma City for two years as a kid. Went to countless Oklahoma City 89ers games. Became a Sooners football fan for life. God Bless Bob Stoops.
Central Oklahoma. I'm very familiar with OKC and the surrounding area. My son and I are big Sooner fans too.
I remember playing football in the front yard on Christmas because it was 75 degrees outside. It snowed once in two years and they closed the school so everyone could enjoy it.
Now I'm in the Midwest with basically three good months to play golf. Back in 2004, I had a chance to take a job in Florida and my STBXW said she wouldn't go ... so I let the opportunity go.
That was a mistake. Getting her away from her family and her comfort zone may have helped -- and if it didn't at least I'd be in Florida.
Just taking it a day at at time bro. Enjoying my kids, my job, have my dog back, and my blessings from the Lord.
Kevin
It snowed 10 inches last Christmas Eve...a real blizzard. It was snowing sideways because of the wind. Now the place is burning up because of temps. greater than 100 degrees and no rain for a long time. Pretty humid too...makes the heat worse. And of course the wind is always blowing hard! If you don't like the weather here...stick around...it'll surely change!
This place sucks for golf...awful wind.
Sooner football is just around the corner.
Continued best wishes man!
Hope you keep getting better and stronger no matter what!
My 13 y/o daughter came over yesterday for about 6 hours or so. I think she enjoyed her visit. I sure enjoyed seeing her. I took her for a pretty good motorcycle ride. My son has friends come over often, and some of his friends came over yesterday, so my daughter got to play with some of them too. They played on the trampoline, my daughter rode her RipStick, and they played X-Box 360. Her mother came over and picked her up yesterday evening. It was the first time my daughter and I have been around each other in 5 months. She was pleasant, but didn't show any affection towards me, even when she left.
Even though, it was 'something'.
My 13 y/o daughter and I have been texting with each other a little bit recently...and my 21 y/o daughter and I have been texting with each other a little bit recently too.
I got each of them a gift while my son and I were in Las Vegas, and they both said 'thank you'.
There has been zero communication between their mother and I.
I have been very happy with my son and I spending so much time together, and I feel that he and I get along better now than at any other time in our lives.
Antlers, that's soooo nice to hear you got to spend time with D13 and you've been talking with D21 too. It's heart warming to see your dedication and love for your kids. See things will get better- sure there maybe some occasional blips but things will continue to improve. Believe it.
Thank You. I hope things will continue to improve...I would LOVE that!
My son and I seem to be pretty solid.
Hey Ant,
I am glad you are getting to spend time with your kids, just keep doing the right thing, and I believe it will work out, as has been talked about in your sitch before.
I had this image in my head from your last post, of your kids having fun, and Ant watching them with a smile, and it makes me smile, even though I wasn't there, and don't even know what you all look like.
It sounds like it was a blessing for you, and hope that it stays in your heart, and you know now that you are doing the right thing..
ant,
How wonderful to hear about you and your beloved daughters.
Small steps.
Right direction.
They're coming back. They'll be back.
Be open to letting them do so at their own pace and in their own way.
Great news.
Peace
Hey IWITW.
Thanks. My son has been pretty much living with me since last Spring. He and I have been, and are, doing real good. Got to see my 13 y/o daughter for about 6 hours last Sunday...1st time in 5 months! Took her on a pretty good motorcycle ride while she was over. Took her to see my side of the family too. She and I have texted a little since then.
I actually did have a smile while she was over. And I actually smile a lot with my son. He and I get along better now than at any other time in our lives. I think your image was pretty accurate.
I'm gonna continue doing what I have been. I hope it continues to get better. Having my son is a true blessing, and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing my daughter. Still haven't seen my oldest daughter, but she and I have been texting some.
How are you doing?
Hi Gardener.
I hope you're right about them coming back. They have been small steps, and I do believe they've been in the right direction. I'm not gonna push anything either...I plan on doing it just as you say. And I hope it comes to pass that the girls and I can be close again.
Thanks G.
You doin' OK? Sounds like it from reading your thread...traveling to the mountains!
ant,
I'm good, thanks.
Home tomorrow night after a great week.
Recharged.
Peace,
Still some texting going on between my daughters and myself. I'm taking it very slowly, and having no expectations. It appears they are moving into a new house with their mother.
My son and I are doing good. Busier now that school has started.
Haven't heard anything about any legal matters since before my son and I went on vacation.
I did a 100 mile bicycle ride in Wichita Falls yesterday. Tough ride, especially the last 40 miles...heat, wind, and rough roads. It was good for me in many ways...the doors to the spirit swing open with physical effort.
ant,
DB your daughters:
Say less than they do.
End exchanges pleasantly - before they do.
Be a Daughter Whisperer.
Be you!
Good news. Good baby steps. I'm so glad to hear this (can't wait until I'm able to report the same "ice-breaking" with beloved StepD & StepS someday.
Peace,
Antlers, I agree with GMan 100%...
100 miles! NICE! you must be in good shape
STBXW did 100 miles not long ago...she was pretty stoked about it- I was underwhelmed of course
I went for a long bike ride today myself, the weather was awesome, my mp3 player blasting, lots of great scenery- I was in heaven. Until I almost face planted trying to show off
Hi G.
That's good advice, and I'll heed it. It's slow going, but there has been some movement over the last month or so.
Hey IR,
I agree with him too! I'm pretty much doing what he says.
Riding my bicycle has been a Godsend for me. I started riding in May of 2009, and have progressed with longer and longer rides until I basically became an endurance athlete. This is the second year in a row that I did the Hotter 'N Hell 100. And again, same as last year, I did stop at the beer joint at mile 98 for free beers and hotlinks!
Well, despite your 'near miss', I hope riding is as medicinal for you as it is for me.
When things are very damaged slow going is the best way.
Like you said, for a good part of your life (therefore I surmise for most of your daughter's life) you said you were very controlling. Just like it took you a long time to acknowledge and address the issue it will take a long time for you daughter to really believe it.
Slow progress is good but it has to be at her pace. Allow her to explore the new you so she can see for yourself things have changed!
Mediation is set for September 14th. I'm not looking forward to it, but we gotta do it. Hopefully we can avoid a trial.
Still going slow with my daughters. Some texting between us. Son and I are still doing OK.
Hey Antlers,
Glad to hear you are doing well. Exercising is such a great thing. I don't bike but I do some spinning classes and they definitely help out (mind, body).
Mediation will be here for you know. Another step in the process.
Hi soleil. I'm doin' alright under the circumstances. I like the endorphins I get from endurance activities...I like to let them bathe my gray matter.
Mediation...here's some stuff off of Smiley's thread that I found interesting...
"Maximize any leverage you have. These women tend to be transactional in their relationships, so you might want to find something to withhold from her in order to get a more equitable outcome. Also, stop being so damned reasonable. Being fair and reasonable doesn’t compute for this type of individual. When you’re generous and give away more than you’re obligated, she sees it as a greenlight to push for even more. She doesn’t think, “Wow, he’s being so generous. I’ll take it.” She thinks, “Sucker. I’ll bet I can get even more if he’s willing to agree to this.”
You are probably a very nice guy and want to be seen as a nice, reasonable guy. She knows this and is working you. The reality is that no matter what you do, your ex thinks you’re a jerk. When you’re reasonable or make concessions to her demands, she thinks you’re a stupid jerk. No matter what you do, she’s going to see you as the bad guy, so do what you need to do protect your best interests. High-conflict people/bullies only respect people who push back hard. Don’t sink to her level, but it may be time to play hardball, which is also probably best handled by your attorney."
When things are very damaged slow going is the best way.
Like you said, for a good part of your life (therefore I surmise for most of your daughter's life) you said you were very controlling. Just like it took you a long time to acknowledge and address the issue it will take a long time for you daughter to really believe it.
Slow progress is good but it has to be at her pace. Allow her to explore the new you so she can see for yourself things have changed!
Hi CityGirl.
I agree. Slow and steady wins the race.
You are correct, and I totally agree.
Agreed. That is the best way.
ps - I always enjoy your posts and responses. They are down to earth and rock solid. Thanks.
Mediation on Tuesday. Her attorney made it clear that he's gonna be there...so my attorney plans on being there. I requested seperate rooms for the mediation, and my attorney will request seperate rooms also. My attorney said the GAL report suggested that my son be with me, and my daughter be with her mother. The division of assets is gonna be a big deal, as are the custody issues. I absolutely hate this crap...but I gotta go through it. I have felt a tremendous amount of stress in the months leading up to the trial/mediation/divorce.
Good idea on having your L there tomorrow, Antlers.
I agree with the poster who told you not to be a martyr and generous. Be fair but don't give your left arm up either. LOL.
It does suck having to do all these darn things but think of it just one more thing to check off your list...
Good luck at mediation today! Let us know how things went! Thinking of you!
Been sending prayers up for you.
soliel, CityGirl, Coach...and others -
Mediation today lasted 6 hours. Cost me another $1500. Came up with a resolution though. Basically she gets 6 figures straight cash from me. She's presently buying a house with this money. The retirement portfolio that I singlehandedly built up over the years has been dealt a mortal blow. I have significantly less money now than she does. I'm gonna have to borrow to pay her! How is that right? Why does the one who left, and destroyed a family, get rewarded? And why does the one who tried to save the family, get punished?
I did get custody of my son...she was not able to take him from me, and she was counting on that in order to get even more child support money from me. She got custody of my daughter, and I have to pay her child support until my daughter is 18. It's crazy that I have to pay her child support when we each have legal and physical custody of one of our children.
She also demanded that I give her my wedding ring back (the one she gave me).
I'm numb.
But we avoided a trial, which would have cost me a bunch more money, and taken any decision making ability away from both of us. It would have also been much harder on the kids, and I did not want them to suffer any more than they have. My attorney believes that, under the circumstances, I came out of it as well as I possibly could..."it could have been worse". I do believe that...this is all just hard to stomach.
I even offered to pay her the entire 4 years worth of child support on this end, and add it into the total...no go. I might get a raise over the next 4 years and she wants to have access to it in case it happens.
I am physically and mentally exhausted...depleted. I am hurt, sad, pissed, poor, and in debt.
I'm upset that one person can unilaterally dismantle a family and be rewarded financially for doing so; I'm upset that a person can be punished financially in a situation like this because they make more money than the person who destroyed the family.
I told her that I would spend my last penny, and my last breath, to keep her from taking my kids away from me. She didn't seem bothered at all losing custody of our son. The GAL's report didn't do for her what she thought it would, especially when oldest daughter told the GAL "mom degrades my dad every time he is mentioned at our house", and "my mom is always making comments about when little brother is coming to live with us permanently, likes she's for sure getting full custody of both kids".
Son is happy that I get custody of him.
It's been awful. I feel like I got beat up severely, both emotionally and financially. It's going to take years to pay off this debt. Anyway, I did the best that I could possibly do. It is what it is. And I hate it.
Sometimes we have to make choices that are not ideal but it sounds like you did just that. Be proud that you allowed yourself to have decision making power via mediation. A trial would have eliminated most of your decision making power.
Your W is a greedy, greedy, greedy woman. But you know that. Her (your) children will know that too. Clearly she is not generous in spirit since she is comfortable bashing you in front of your children who are deeply suffering.
You might be in financial debt and for a while you will feel like you are in emotional debt but you will never have moral debt. And maybe that is the best victory to savor.
Be well, friend. While this experience is riddled with pain for you, it has been a great pleasure to watch you grow and rebuild yourself as a man. And make no mistake about it, you *are* a good man.
CityGirl, thanks. Sincerily.
I'm awfully down. Can't help it. Worst it's been in about a year or more. It was like she's heartless...without a conscience. My life has taken a turn that I couldn't have imagined only a couple of years ago. Just can't grasp that this is the same person that shared life with me for so many years. I don't know what to do, or how to feel. I ask God for help, and it doesn't come. I hurt.
I know you hurt and I am so very, very sorry. I know the very hurt you speak of (we all do) and I wish I had a magic pill to make it all better (well, I *do* have magic pills that make things feel better but that wears off in about 24 hours
...
It is okay after such an intense mediation that brought things to a legal close you are unsure how to feel or what to do next. My goodness... you are a human being, not a robot! Several years of uncertainty and marital discourse was brought to a close in 6 hours. Give yourself a break!
Sometimes when we ask God for help we feel let down because the help is delivered to us in a way that we don't clearly see. I think your son will be an amazing source of strength and light for you.
It will take a long time to grasp all of this. Hell, I had an appt. this morning in a building next to the family court building and I almost had a panic attack right on the street! I saw all the divorce attnys milling around and people talking strategy and glaring at their spouses and I just wanted to scream at *something*. These wounds are deep and frequently reopened during the viscous legal cycle.
I know I am not helping, lol! We are all here!
Hi Antlers,
I am sad for the pain & loss you are experiencing. It sounds like taking this financial hit is even more of a double whammy.
I am happy for you about the custody of your son and have hope that the baby steps you are taking with your daughter will bear fruit soon. It sounds like from the comments from the GAL that your daughter is aware of what your XW is doing to manipulate them.
Thinking of you & wishing you peace.
Bridge
(((((((((((((( Antlers )))))))))))))
Keep your head up. I know this is hard and totally not something you would have ever imagined but you will come out on the other end. You are in the process of doing so right now, even if it doesn't feel like it.
Antlers, I'm sorry man! There are no words to make you feel better but take heart in knowing that you at least have some clear ideas of what needs to happen now and how to start rebuilding your life.
The financial hit is horrible when you're the one who worked so hard to build it up piece by piece. I'm in the same boat as you and heading down the same lake so I know how you feel. I'm sorry. But it's only money...it can be had again. And don't give up hope in your prayers. I'm not religious but lately I've started to believe in karma...she'll have to deal with hers when it comes knocking.
I'm not religious but lately I've started to believe in karma...she'll have to deal with hers when it comes knocking.
LOL
I might get a raise over the next 4 years and she wants to have access to it in case it happens.
Did you check with your L on that? Can you she even try for that if you are already D'ed and an agreement has been reached?
You might be in financial debt and for a while you will feel like you are in emotional debt but you will never have moral debt. And maybe that is the best victory to savor.
Indeed. You can rest easy every night knowing you TRIED and you are a better person today for it. Hug, Antlers!
How are you doing today, Antlers? Are you taking any biking adventures this weekend?
CityGirl...thank you for your posts. It's hard for me to get my brain around this...that she and I were so close for so many years...and she's become so heartless, and devoid of a conscience. I have to go sign papers in the morning releasing me from any liability for, or any claim to, the new house that she is closing on tomorrow afternoon. She has been so done with me for so long...she has a super big jump on me there.
I can't imagine me being so easily capable of, or just being capable of period, so utterly being done with someone that I once cared about so much...like she has.
Hi Bridge.
Thank you for posting. Yeah, it's a tough hit. It's gonna take me 7 years to pay off the money that I have to borrow to pay her completely. Thank God I have my son...I am saddened that I lost custody of my youngest daughter. I am going slow and steady with her, and I hope things will continue to improve. I was certainly surprised when I saw what my oldest daughter had told the GAL the derogatory stuff about her mom that she did. I bet that her mother was very surprised when she saw it also!
How are you doing today, Antlers? Are you taking any biking adventures this weekend?
I've struggled, but I did OK under the circumstances. Hadn't been on the bicycle lately, and I'm gonna be working this weekend.
My son and I went to the State Fair this afternoon though, and we had a blast. Seeing him with a genuine happy smile on his face means the world to me.
Hey soleil.
You're right. The stuff that has gone down over the past couple of years is something that I would never have believed would ever go down! She's not ashamed, she's not embarrased...she's proud! The agent that she's using to buy her new house is the same one that we used 10 years ago to buy the house that our family lived in. It's hard to stomach that she's done what she has' and has become what she has. I have so many feelings, thoughts, and emotions...I don't know what to do with them...except hurt. I don't know how I could ever fully trust another, after all of this.
Good mornin' IR...yeah, reality has hit me clearly in the face.
Her sense of entitlement is unfathomable. My family was torn apart, my children have suffered tremendously, I've spent 5 figures on legal fees that could have been used for my kids, I've suffered the loss of all my hopes and dreams for the future, and taken huge emotional and financial hits, while she broke the marriage vows...and she got rewarded trendously for her actions. I tried as hard as I could to prevent it all...and I got punished for my actions. It leaves one numb, and in a state of pain. She's happy as a clam. She's euphoric. Losing her son meant nothing to her; she was completely willing to put the kids through a trial if she didn't get her way.
soleil, concerning the child support that I'm obligated to pay her until my youngest D is 18...yes, she is 'entitled' to any increases in my income that I might sustain over the next 4 years. Great and fair system...huh?
I do have moral debt in being the way that I used to be... But I had already started making the changes that she'd wanted me to make all along BEFORE she left. It didn't matter. She had others involved at that point.
I do feel OK about me doing everything within my power to keep this from happening. I know in my heart that I did do that. It means nothing to her, but it means something to me. And I have made huge changes, good changes, along the way, in myself. I feel good about myself now, being the way that I am now. I wish it hadn't taken me so long though. I feel like I could have prevented much pain and suffering, for all of us.
In order to learn from the past, one must forgive it, but it's hard.
gabbysmom23, thank you for posting. I do feel a sense of injustice...in a HUGE way! Yep, nothing's unclear now. It's a done deal. And thank God that I have my son! PTL. I intend to send my 13 y/o daughter a card soon, letting her know that I fought just as hard to keep from losing her, and that I'm saddened that I wasn't able to! I want her to know that I didn't give her up. My son's mother didn't seem bothered at all when it was made clear to her that I got custody of our son...she was only concerned with how much money she was gonna get out of all of this!
I hurt...and she's euphorically happy! Go figure.
She's not ashamed, she's not embarrased...she's proud!
Grr. How frustrating. The good thing is you know the things you did wrong in the past so forgive yourself and in the future, work on those things and don't repeat them.
Someone once told me "divorce is an opportunity." D royally sucks but in a way, it is an opportunity. You are starting a new chapter in your life and the pages haven't been filled yet. It's kind of exciting.
I hurt...and she's euphorically happy! Go figure.
This is our time to hurt and grieve. Her time will come later. Karma's a real bitch.
My 2 cents for you would be to consider her gone, out of your life like a sist infection on your back. No talking, texting, etc. Don't tell her you're hurt, don't give her the privilege of even knowing that you exist. At this point you owe her NOTHING.
I know this a tough time for you and we're all feeling your pain through your words. Take time to acknowledge and accept it and then pull yourself up by your bootstraps, meet with a financial planner build and plan a roadmap for your life 2.0 and start working the plan. You've done it once you'll figure out a way to do it again.
Hang in there. You've made it to the top of the hump, it's all downhill from here.
I have so many feelings, thoughts, and emotions...I don't know what to do with them...except hurt. I don't know how I could ever fully trust another, after all of this.
I understand this. I hope you can find other feelings in there as well with someone eventually, yourself first and foremost. To learn how to trust again.
It is scary to vulnerable and risk hurting like we are/have, but it's even scarier to think I will never love/be loved again too in an intimate R, and I need to be vulnerable to allow that to happen.
I hope you can allow yourself the time to heal so you too can be vulnerable and learn to trust. We are not all your XW.
Hugs
Bridge
My 2 cents for you would be to consider her gone, out of your life like a sist infection on your back. No talking, texting, etc. Don't tell her you're hurt, don't give her the privilege of even knowing that you exist. At this point you owe her NOTHING.
Yep. Do this. Go dark with regards to your R to her. The only contact you should have should be about co-parenting things.
Question for the board...
Since our spouses so clearly want out...do you guy sthink they have grieved the R already (while we are here feeling like scum?) Or do you think they grieve later down the line, after the fact, when reality hits them that they wanted the D?
I think they've grieved enough to find the courage to become a WAS...which in itself takes a lot. They do have a lot of guilt which comes out as hostile actions towards us. However, I don't think the reality and remorse truly hits them until much much later.
WAS and courage hardly belong in the same sentence.
WAS's run on a "high" for a very, very long time. Some never crash and if they do we won't know a thing about it.
Make no mistake about it though - there is ZERO courage in being a WAS that just ups and leave w/o any discussion (unless there is physical abuse).
soleil, I do know what I did wrong...and I now understand why I was that way. I have no intention of ever being that way again.
It's never too late to start doing what's right...but I wish I had learned a long time ago the things that I've learned over the past couple of years.
Well I am hurting and grieving. I don't know if there's any truth to the old addage 'what goes around, comes around'. It's hard to choke all of this down.
I do consider her gone. It would be illogical and unrealistic to consider her any other way.
I appreciate your thoughts and empathy. I've been feeling it for a long time, but it's hit me big because of things coming to a legal end.
Thank God I have my son.
Hi Bridge.
I guess there's not any room for any other feelings right now. I've had opportunities to meet others and date, but I didn't want to, at all, until I was legally not married anymore. I do trust myself...I know my heart.
It's hard for me to think about another relationship right now. Period.
"We are not all your XW." God I hope not.
ps - there was infidelity involved, on her part, in addition to everything else I've shared on these boards. Haven't mentioned it until now, since the legal aspects of things have come to a close, but I've been aware of it since before she ever left. I was in the past what I've shared on these boards, but there was more to it than just that. I believe that she used the way that I was as an excuse, or justification, to do what she was doing.
I can remember how distant and angry she became all of a sudden...because she was already cheating. She projected anger and distance when she resented my positive changes...now that she had done something that violated her own previous moral code. It's as if she was saying, "I am livid that you made me do something so reprehensible, and only now are you making positive changes! If you had done these things sooner, I wouldn't have had to cheat on you!"
Fact is, I'm not responsible for her cheating...she is responsible for that all on her own.
I have no intention of communicating with her about anything. If communication needs to happen regarding the kids, I will weigh it heavily and decide whether or not it really needs to be made.
I think, in my case, she made up her mind to leave long before she actually left. And the fact that there was someone else involved made her decision easier...maybe even provided some motivation. Any grieving that was done by her, if any, was probably done before she left. She obviously wanted to divorce. She's no longer a person that I know, that's for sure. I can remember her telling me, shortly after the separation and during the separation that "I don't even know who you are anymore!"
I think some of them greived before they left, they are just too emotionally devoid to have real feelings like real human beings. They lash out now towards us, because it is the only way they can live with themselves, to rationalize and justify what they have done.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
WAS's run on a "high" for a very, very long time. Some never crash and if they do we won't know a thing about it.
I agree with this too. She's been on a 'high' ever since she left, and continues to do so.
Well based on the books I've read and speaking to STBXW after we reconciled I know there's a lot of hurt and unhappiness inside them which turns into anger and anger eventually turns into strength to make a change. The only change they think they can make is to run.
However, if there's OP involved then I'm sure that changes the dynamics. In my case there was no OP involved as far as I know...initially anyway.
The fact is that most of their hurt and anger is because they're unhappy with themselves and are trying to make others feel them better. So when despite walking away from everything they find that they're still unhappy that's when it hits them. In this case it doesn't matter if there was OP involved or not. However, they're not willing to admit (their self protection mechanism kicks in) they're unhappy or the fault lies with them- this is the part that can take a long time but eventually it happens. In most cases it's too late by then to make a difference for the LBS.
Fact is, I'm not responsible for her cheating...she is responsible for that all on her own.
Exactly, they have other options than cheating but they feel justified to do it. However, again, it eventually catches up with them and when it does it too becomes your fault.
Hello IR,
I believe there was much hurt and unhappiness inside her because of me being so darn angry, resentful, and abusive (verbal) over the years. It turned into anger, and she continued to get angrier as time passed, especially after she left...man did she get angry after she left. I started changing before she ever left...but it didn't matter to her at that point. She changed a lot during this time (starting about 3 months before she actually left). I watched her change into something I never thought possible during this time. She went from a loving and caring wife who placed a huge importance on our family...to a stranger...cold, hard, uncaring, mean, who placed no importance on our family.
I think the involvement of another person gave her even more motivation to do what she did (leave, tear the family apart...regardless of anything or anybody).
Jesus Himself couldn't tell her that she did anything wrong...to this day!
Fact is, I'm not responsible for her cheating...she is responsible for that all on her own.
Exactly, they have other options than cheating but they feel justified to do it. However, again, it eventually catches up with them and when it does it too becomes your fault.
Yeah, another option would have been to not cheat, stay in the marriage, go to counseling with me, not tear our family apart, and be happy about the changes that I was making (the changes that she'd wanted me to make all along).
ant,
Catching up after some time away.
I'm sorry for your intense grief. I can (we all can) relate.
In my case I continue to grieve a memory for when I
do see her (re: house sale and such) I am amazed at how indifferent I feel and how
there is nothing about her that I recognize.
Improved Romeo, Gabby'sMom, CityGirl and others are dead on.
In fact
The only change they think they can make is to run.
Every book I've read, every C I've spoken to, and Snodderly says the exact same thing: Run. As fast and as far away as they can.
The fact is that most of their hurt and anger is because they're unhappy with themselves and are trying to make others feel them better. So when despite walking away from everything they find that they're still unhappy that's when it hits them...they're not willing to admit (their self protection mechanism kicks in) they're unhappy or the fault lies with them- this is the part that can take a long time but eventually it happens. In most cases it's too late by then to make a difference for the LBS.
^^^Wisdom.
True, sad, unfortunate wisdom.
I wish you strength and healing.
Peace,
Hi Gardener.
This is some stuff pulled from IR's thread, and it describes the way I feel, and have felt for a long time...hard stuff to deal with.
"A betrayal of this proportion is not easy to fathom and heal from regardless of who the OP is. The feeling of a sudden loss of your dreams and hopes, severing of that deeply rooted trust two people built and held near and dear and the feeling of rejection- it's horrible. One of the worst things that can happen to someone- especially someone who was blindsided and never could've imagined THEIR spouses were capable of such things." - ImprovedRomeo
Then, there's a side to these things that we don't think about much, but it's true just the same! I'd rather not have to go through it though!
"Sometimes I think it's a miracle we've made it this far and we can look back and be proud of how many obstacles we've over come, what we've learnt from all this despite the grave conditions and even joke about it. And that is having it easy...because in addition to all the emotional pain when you have to also take care of your health, finances, legal BS etc in the midst of the sh!t storm you really have to be a rock of a person to survive it all." - ImprovedRomeo
"Sometimes I think it's a miracle we've made it this far and we can look back and be proud of how many obstacles we've over come, what we've learnt from all this despite the grave conditions and even joke about it. And that is having it easy...because in addition to all the emotional pain when you have to also take care of your health, finances, legal BS etc in the midst of the sh!t storm you really have to be a rock of a person to survive it all." - ImprovedRomeo
I agree with this and it's so true.
I wonder if some WAS' ever apologize later? Like it matters anymore, but I do wonder.
Antlers, I am sending you a GREAT BIG HUG today. I hope your day only gets better
Antlers, you're that rock for having survived what you have - especially you because of how angry and vengeful your XW has acted. So believe that and be proud.
Reminds me of Bob Seger's "Like A Rock":
Like a rock
Standin’ arrow straight
like a rock
chargin’ from the gate
like a rock
carryin’ the weight
like a rock
oh like a rock
the sun upon my skin
like a rock
hard against the wind
like a rock
I see myself again
like a rock
oh like a rock
IR, it greatly amuses me how you find a song for every sitch on here. It's awesome
1. I wonder if some WAS' ever apologize later?
2. Antlers, I am sending you a GREAT BIG HUG today. I hope your day only gets better
1. I doubt it. That would be an admission that they actually did something wrong...and that's something that they can't tolerate (the fact that they did something wrong).
2. I appreciate that. Thanks. I've had a pretty good day today.
I doubt mine will ever admit she's wrong. I can't ever remember her admitting she was wrong in the 15 years we've been involved.
She already apologized after our second mediation session. On the way to my car she said "I know this isn't what you want. I'm sorry."
I looked at her and didn't say anything. That didn't help me at all.
That's strange CTH,
Come to think of it, My XW also never would admit when she was wrong. Even when it was obvious that she was. Hmmmm.
Maybe that is one the red flags I should have taken a closer look at. But she was this way for our entire marriage so I thought it was just a personality flaw.
Well count me in with you guys who say your spouses hardly ever apologize. I can count on my two hands the times that stbx said the word "Sorry." It was just not in his vocabulary. That's weak, IMO.
She already apologized after our second mediation session. On the way to my car she said "I know this isn't what you want. I'm sorry."
I looked at her and didn't say anything. That didn't help me at all.
Yeah, really. What are you supposed to say to that?
Well count me in with you guys who say your spouses hardly ever apologized. I can count on my two hands the times that stbx said the word "Sorry." It was just not in his vocabulary. That's weak, IMO.
They would let the world come to an end before they would ever truly admit that they were sorry about the decisions they made that resulted in destruction of the family and marriage. They can't tolerate the fact that what they did was wrong...and truly apologizing would be an ownership that they did wrong...and that ain't happening! On top of that, I think they have truly convinced themselves that what they did was OK...regardless of how wrong it truly was. Jesus Himself couldn't convince them otherwise.
! On top of that, I think they have truly convinced themselves that what they did was OK...regardless of how wrong it truly was. Jesus Himself couldn't convince them otherwise.
LOL
Hey Antlers, how're things with you?
Hey Romeo.
Things are OK, especially under the circumstances. My son and I are doing well. I'm so thankful that I got custody of him. Me working, him being in school...typical everyday stuff. We spend lots of time together.
Thanks for asking.
I've noticed that the cheating spouses have convinced themselves that they have justification for what they are doing...regardless of how wrong it actually is. They all 'rationalize' and convince themselves that not only is what they are doing OK, it's "justified". Jesus Himself couldn't convince these people that what they are doing is grossly wrong. Some even convince themselves that they were "forced" into it. And if a spouse snoops and finds out about the infidelity of their spouse and they confront the cheater with it...the cheating spouse gets mad at them for snooping! The fact that they were cheating is irrelevant...they're pissed because of the snooping by their spouse!
I wouldn't recommend anyone expose their spouses affair in order to "shame" them. I think most people expose their spouses affair because they (the victim) need support. The pain is so deep. It is such a gross violation of trust, committed by someone who vowed to spend their life with you and be faithful to you, that once it happens...you need to tell people you are close to and trust, so they can be supportive of you.
I myself never said a word to anyone about my wife's cheating. I kept it to myself for 22 months. All of the time that I've spent on this board during the long separation, and after the divorce was filed by her, I kept it to myself. I worked on me, I addressed my shortcomings, and I succeeded. I remember vividly all of the times that she got off work at 5 pm, and wouldn't come home until 8, 8:30, or 9 pm at night. This was when she was pulling away. I would question her. She would lie. I remember vividly one night in particular that she came home about 9 pm after getting off work at 5, and she went and got in the shower (something that she NEVER did). And her blue panties were laying on the bathroom floor with fresh semen stains in them. I questioned her. She lied. I questioned her further and she went berserk! I remember her telling me that it "sickened and disgusted" her for me to touch her anymore. I had no control at all over her or what she did. All the while, I concentrated on myself and the changes that I needed to make in myself. She never acknowledged anything, she never accepted any blame at all, and was more than happy for me to shoulder all of it myself.
I needed the support of my family and close friends. So, after such a long time, and after much water had gone under the bridge...I told...my family and close friends, because I needed their support. It was after the mediation.
She still won't accept any responsibility to this day.
My favorites are of the "I am doing you a favor" variety.
For example, "This is really best for everybody. You deserve to find true love.".
It's absolutely hysterical to think about how drop-dead serious somebody in an affair can be about "finding true love" until the wheels come off of their affair.
My favorites are of the "I am doing you a favor" variety.
Au contrair. When stbx eluded to this being right for us (the D) I agreed and told HIM that I was happy because I saw his decision as him doing ME a huge favor
Antlers, your story is very touching- and sad. What's impressive though is that even through the sh*t storm you kept on and worked on yourself. You're a better person, you've learnt a lot through this experience and while the results are not what you wanted it wasn't all in vain. They say things happen for a reason even when we don't understand them at the time. So who knows maybe in 5 years from now you'll look back at this experience and find that this really did launch you on a path that was better than the one you were on before.
When you know that you're capable of dealing with whatever comes, you have the only security the world has to offer. - Harry Browne
I'm not saying I'm there, but I believe in it, and it's something I aspire to.
Your thread is extremely large. Please start a new one.
Thanks,
sg