Donna--finding herself #37 - DivorceBusting.com

Just starting another one...

They aren't her in-laws. They are her X-in-laws.

Donna, what are you getting from continuing to live with your X-in-laws? Why are you unwilling to consider changing that? What is worth the costs it has to you and your kids in terms of slowing your progress down? What about simple financial costs?

They are family.

They are the kids' grandparents. They help with sitting if I need it.

MIL and I are friends.

None of the people we know in real life see an issue with it, or see it as unhealthy (except perhaps X). That includes others in the family, friends, our pastor... My IC has mentioned that I might not want to be the one who takes care of them in their old age, but that we have time for that, as long as I have boundaries in place.

You mention financial...maybe that is another issue. It is an "in-law" apt that they have. If I were to rent it out to anyone else, it would be an illegal apt. I'd have to deal with unknown people and whatever issues they bring, living so close to my home and kids, sharing my yard. The apt wouldn't be bringing any money in if it wasn't occupied, which can happen, and I count on that income.

So, it is what it is for now. And it really isn't bad...at this point, I realize that we will get along much better if we keep things between us, and not get involved in their relationships with any of their kids. If my x-SILs and BIL want to visit, call, etc., they know where I am. Again, it comes down to boundaries.

Well, I don't agree that they are your family, but nevermind that. They will be the kids' grandparents if you move. MIL can remain your friend if you move. They could still help with sitting if you move.

What are the costs of moving that make it worthwhile to stay in a situation that hurts you?

I count my xMIL and xSIL as family, they've seen my kids being born and grow, they welcome me in their home and are truly glad to see me, they are the kids' aunt/grandma, thus, they are family to me.

What happened to the drinks in this place?! a fuzzy navel please $\:\)$

Alternatively, what are you going to do to prevent the situation from hurting you?

Quote:

Well, I don't agree that they are your family, but nevermind that. They will be the kids' grandparents if you move. MIL can remain your friend if you move. They could still help with sitting if you move.

Totally agree.

Slap me upside the head if I am wrong but it sounds as if Donna has the house and they have an "apt" on the property. They are living with her. So you think she could kick them out?

I haven't been reading over here as long, so I am really trying to clarify this. thanks for being patient as I check out my future neighborhood.

kat

Yeah, that's the deal as far as I know too kat and I've been around here quite a bit longer. $;\)$

Donna, by now you know what your triggers are for the melancholy. You know what to avoid. Do your darndest and live your life fully! You're awesome!

It is my house; I own it (with a mortgage). They rent a 2 bedroom apt in my house. It has a separate entrance, kitchen, laundry, etc. There are some days when we don't even run across each other.

So, how does this sound:
Hey, MIL and FIL, even though my X and I welcomed you into our home 4 years ago when dad was laid-off from his job and you didn't know where to go, then X lost it and started an affair with a neighbor, lying to your face as well as everyone else's and took off, and now you are estranged from him, could you please pack up what you have considered home and find someplace else to live? Yeah, I know that dad will be able to retire in Nov. when he can get medicare, and your savings have taken a huge hit in the recession. So much for that - hit up one of your birth kids, or just keep working. Mom can go back to work, too. Maybe you can move in with X and the other 5 people who live with him already, even if you aren't speaking?
Oh, and can you stick around close enough to continue to visit your grandkids and help babysit when I need it, since I don't have any family of my own around here (they are all a state away)? Its only CT, the most expensive place in the country to live outside Hawaii. Nevermind that all of your other grown kids live out of state.
Or, for the same rent I charge you, you should be able to find a studio basement apt in the middle of the inner-city about 20 minutes away. Not sure if I'd like the kids going over there to visit, though.

Quote:

Alternatively, what are you going to do to prevent the situation from hurting you?

My in-laws and I have committed ourselves to setting up the boundaries that are necessary to make it work. Interaction with them does not trigger melancholy. Even the last bout wasn't them, but the absence of the larger family unit; we have been known to have holidays with more than 30 people, and it doesn't look like that will happen soon - its another loss, and normal to grieve, I think - it didn't lead to another depressive stint that I couldn't break.
I am still hopeful that someday I might be able to have some kind of "normal" relation with X, so that we could both show up for an event without any drama from either side. In the meantime, it is their family, and if he is attending something, I step aside, send my best wishes.

I apologize for sounding so defensive - I know that usually signals a problem. And there are probably things that will continue to have to be worked out, but that's life. For now, things at home are ok. I know where they are, where they stand, and what my place is in their lives. Vice-versa for them.

Remember, my "addiction" was to X, not all of the members in his family! $;\)$

Oh, and fuzzy naval for everyone who likes 'em!

Oh goody! I'm fasting so a virtually alcoholic beverage is permitted!

Just wanted to drop by and say hi! I hope you are having a wonderful time. Are you back tonight or sometime this weekend?

kat

OK, I just got back on, read a few posts and responded...
I have to put the brakes on a minute.

I know that the last few things I wrote were about how I can't fathom being friends with X.

I guess it is something that has been perculating in the background for me, not something I am dwelling on consciously. But, there it is!

Another way to beat myself up a little? I still struggle with finding it easier to forgive X than myself...but maybe that is me displacing the feelings.

I have to embrace how my life is, and is going to be, better off without him.

Wow, even typing those words out is hard.

I thought for a while that I should make up the Ann Landers list, "Are you better off with him or without him?" Without the list, I revert to the Better off With him stance, but that is only while I imagine what COULD be, not with what is.
Now, I think I should do something different...
"You're a single mom - what do you want to fill your life and thoughts with, now?"

Yes, he still has too much real estate up in my brain. Still having dreams about him. It all gets better in very small increments. But its not keeping me from work, or spending time with my kids, at least. I have to find some more outlets for myself, though - very busy with work and keeping up the house. I am looking forward to the summer!

btw, the Break was great - lots of time with the kids, a chance to kick back and relax. I wonder when I won't be thinking of what X is missing out on, though. We were all very in-the-moment while we were out and about, but the thought kept creeping back into my head, fleeting. And we had gone a few times while we were together, too, so I remembered that...
At least it didn't get in the way of us having a good time!

This was my horoscope:

Quote:

Your vision for the future is a bit foggy right now, but you need clarity now more than ever. Therefore, in order to understand what you want for yourself, you need to take all the time you need to ponder where you want to take your life over the next five years. Do not apologize for being slow -- your future is too important! Luckily it won't take long for you to come up with a few ideas, especially since you see a great opportunity that could change everything.

Oh, and on another note regarding in-laws (x inlaws)...

I put some thought on what all was said here about the sitch. Last week, I spoke with MIL about it. I reiterated that I didn't want to ever be in the way of her relationships with her kids and extended family, that I appreciated them and all that they've done. But, if there was ever a time that they wanted to change the living arrangements, I would "get it."

She said that she and FIL consider this home, but realizes that things would probably be different now if they hadn't lived here through the mess. That she thought God was at work that they were here, and doesn't know what would have happened to me if they weren't here then. I told her she doesn't have to feel responsible for me in that way anymore, or ever again.
She said, well, what would I do about the rent - didn't I need the money? I said yes, but I would either rent the apt out or sell the house if need be for something smaller, it wasn't a big deal.
She told me about her cousin's house back down on LI, and how he had assumed that they would move in there when FIL retired (in Nov!). She said she had no idea where he got that idea from. We ended the convo with her saying she would talk to FIL about it.

They are leaving for a short trip to FL tomorrow, for their nephew's wedding, her sister's son. This is the sister I visited soon after X moved out, but has been telling MIL that she has to find forgiveness for her son. Three of their five kids will be down there, too (x doesn't have the $). I wasn't invited.

And its ok. I bet if I had been able to remain friends with X, invitations would still be extended (maybe not). Who wants the drama? Same thing with a SIL, the one who excluded me from her wedding shower and caused a lot of drama within the family (she's pregnant now, and I'm not anticipating an invite to the baby shower, either).

If they move, maybe MIL and I will remain friends, maybe not. I would expect it would go back to much the way it was before they moved in here - cards, the occasional rare phone call, get-togethers for some family functions.
Some people are in your life for a season (remember that saying?), and I can accept that.

Donna,

These people from your husband's family are not in your family anymore. Try to stop looking at yourself as "not invited" and feeling rejected. I didn't invite you to my dinner party either. You are simply out of the picture. And, it isn't about you, so don't personalize it.

Regarding your EX-in-laws and their family -- you ARE in the way of their Rs with their kids and extended family. Wishing that wasn't the case won't change things. Maybe you all want to live with that fact, but don't avoid it. Your interference in their family would be greatly lessened if you were not living with them. Your MIL feeds on enmeshment, she isn't likely to stop taking responsibility for your emotional/physical/monetary welfare. You can already pretty much tell from her words that she has told someone that they can't move because you need their income.

And, try to give up your secret hope of saving the family home for when XH returns. It isn't going to happen, and if it did, you'd have a much better chance of reconciling on neutral ground rather than the scene of the crime, ongoing betrayals, and so on.

I actually wasn't feeling rejected from this wedding; more from the shower coming up. This baby would have been my nephew; it is weird. When my SIL (xSIL) got divorced, I was sad that her X made no effort to meet my new baby. It was only a short time after their split, and we had both "come into" the family over the same weekend - he just disappeared. I tried to understand, then, but it was hard since I felt as close to him as I had to the other sibs - I knew them all for the same amount of time. The other sibs actually got a bit ticked that he was so avoident, and gave up trying to be in touch with him after a while. I SO get it, now.
I guess I just develop loyalties and connections more readily than they did.

Would it be more "normal" to just stop caring about these people who were family to me for more than 20 years? I wonder about the enmeshment issue...where is the line?

Saving the family home? No, not attached to this place, either. Not sure if I could sell it, though - the market is not what it used to be (might not be able to sell it for what I have out in loans on it), and there are repair issues that would have to be addressed. Expensive ones, along with tax things and permits that were never secured. There is all the work that was put into the apt, a back deck, the hot tub, upgraded electric panel (not sure if that was done through the town or not - probably not), the front deck, a shed.....it might be a small fortune owed to the town for variances. And remember all of the things he did (and didn't do?), like the pool fiasco and the sun room? I am just now trying to get those repaired.

I actually wouldn't have minded finding another place - I have never loved this house. Its a long ranch. Nice yard, but on a slope. You can hear the highway from the front. There have been a lot of updates that have made me happier with it, and the apt income-potential, though. But being a seller in this market sucks, there were the in-laws, and it would be another adjustment for the kids...

You said "chance of reconcilling." What on earth gave you the impression that that might even be a possibility? Am I missing something?

I see that people are still referring to you living with them, not as it actually is. They are living in your apartment that is attached to YOUR house.

My understanding is that they don't have to interact if they don't want to. If you would like to talk to your former-in-laws and let them know that you don't want them to feel obligated to rent from you then fine. But I really don't think you should toss them out as long as everything is good between you. I think you have already discussed boundaries and as long as everything is laid out I think it is fine. Hopefully that includes not talking about ex.

Yes I think you are still hung up on your ex. It takes a while and if I have learned anything is that you will be ready to let it go when you are. You certainly will feel less pain once you do but no one can say it is time get over it, because it is different for everyone.

kat

In thinking back, there really isn't any kind of "talk" about X. On the weekend that we came back from vacation, I let the kids go to see him for lunch on that Sat. MIL asked me why: said she hoped I knew it wouldn't "earn any points from him," that he wouldn't reciprocate, etc. I just said that I did it for the kids - had nothing to do with him. And that's the truth; they had missed him. She seems angrier at him than I am; I have found that it is much better to not talk to her about the sitch at all, anymore. I don't bring it up.

As for being hung up on X...yep, but I think it is more in the abstract, now. I am hung up on a man who doesn't exist, who may have never existed. It is the idea, the possibilities that I could see in the future, based on long-ago perceptions from the past. And there are some of the more down-to-earth issues, like having someone to call on a whim, snuggle with, have help with the work of life, an understanding sounding board, the person in your corner all the time...being married in general, not as specific to him.

Just going with the changes, even if it is really slow-going.

Thanks kat - its easier to change a thought while you're awake, than at night in a dream. Those are a PITA, shows I'm still dealing with stuff.

Donna,

Being left for someone elso is the bisggest betrayal one can ever experience. It makes your head reel. That is slow to pass, even if your STBX is having an affair with "grandpa" as my STBX was and is.

There is no WHY. Yesterday, I heard that a couple who my kids went to school with are getting divorced after 22 years. He just left. She found emails that he was corresponding with 20 women from across the country. Ugh!!!!!

People are fu&ked up!

Hey Ms. Donna..

There's a ratty cage making ratty noises looking for your ratties!

This week I decided to sell my house (my proceeds from the divorce), sell the luxury car ex gave me for my birthday (if you know anyone who's interested in a Lexus IS 350 with the sport package at a reasonable price, let me know!) and let go of the the stuff that keeps me intangibly connected to him.

You've seen my house.. way too big for two people. I can survive here, but I can't save money... I'm a prisoner to the mortgage and can't afford much else.

It's about letting go. Your in-laws are not invalids, they're adults. They look for your direction. They feel a responsibility for your welfare after the your struggle with the divorce. You are not responsible for their wellbeing.

I have to tell you, getting the house ready to sell is a liberating experience. It's an action I'm taking for me, to make my life better, for me and the kids.

Set yourself free. Set your in-laws free. I repeat, you are not responsible for their wellbeing. It was a good situation when you were married, now it's awkward for both.

Shed the mantle of having to take care of the world.. and take care of yourself.

*hugs*

"You said "chance of reconcilling." What on earth gave you the impression that that might even be a possibility? Am I missing something?"

Nothing gave me the idea that it would be a possibility. In fact I said "It isn't going to happen..." I was just saying that holding onto the old family homestead and keeping his parents as boarders is not going to increase the likelihood of reconcilliation, if anything, it would probably lessen it. Why would I think that you were trying to hold onto the house and living situation for such a reason? Because I really don't see anything valuable about holding onto them if you are moving forward into a new future that includes letting go, really, of all this stuff with XH and his family.

P.S. I'll leave you alone now about your house and ex-in-laws living with you. It is true that the housing market makes things especially hard now.

Donna, I think you're doing fine and I don't see why ot is hell-bent on you cutting ties with ex-il's. It seems nicer for the kids this way.

Different families have different dynamics. I think it's to your ex-il's credit that they see that your h f'ed up. Many just blindly support their kids no matter what they do.

Went to IC today - first time in a month! I could hardly believe it. And no phone calls to her at all. That's pretty amazing, and she pointed out that it was a sign of growth. Told her all about the vacation, having kids see X for lunch afterwards, letting the little stuff go...
also about how I wondered about not being able to have any contact with him at all, but while recognizing that this is the healthiest way to be right now. She pointed out that he has proven that he isn't ready for any kind of civil dealings, either, not just me.
We spoke about in-laws and that sitch, how I have backed off relying on her for support for probably most of the past year, and that leaving the opening there for them to feel free to go is the best thing. I know I'll be fine either way, but it is nice for the kids especially, to have them here. So it is what it is for the time being. Meanwhile, I have to get back to concentrating on fixing up the house, first to live in, second, to make it marketable and protect my asset, if I do decide a move is in order in the future.

I am grateful for friends who tell me their thoughts and ideas, like you all do.

We are set to have a GLORIOUS weekend, in the low 80s!! Hope you all get to enjoy it, too!! My daughter's 10th birthday party is this weekend - a sleepover Sat, then up and off to the indoor water park with 7 kids!

Quote:

being married in general, not as specific to him

That is the perfect way to put that. I couldn't seem to put into words what I'm mourning still. It's not him, just the simple pleasures of being married. The companionship, support, cuddles, etc..

Thanks for putting it into words that make more sense. $\:\)$

Glad your vacation was GREAT!

We had a great weekend. Monday was, well, Monday, but D10 and I went to a beading thing at church and made some bracelets. Tonight was some shopping for her outfit for her concert Thursday.

Thursday........
My night with the kids, which is good.
But I also expect it will be the first time that I see X and his gf together, with her whole brood in tow. Her D, my D's best friend, is in the chorus, too.

I'm getting nervous. Today was the first that I thought of it. I have been doing so well, feeling so good. So far, I'm not hurt, just feeling a little sick to my stomach/bothered by the idea of seeing them together, hand in hand.
It seems that every time I get to an ok place, another cut comes. And I shouldn't be getting hurt, anymore. It is all in my own head - accept it, and it won't hurt.

This defies logic, what is in my head. This is all from the gut. But its just easier to pretend that he is dead. Its been so long, hopefully he'll look so different, so foreign...or I just won't see them together at all. Blech.

Show up early and sit in the front if possible. then bring a book or something to read while you are waiting for the show to start...don't spend your time looking around for him/them. You can do this.

kat

I'm hoping he doesn't hang around to talk to her as we are trying to leave...blech. I know I have to do this...hate that it still bothers me.

Hey, Ms. Donna..

I'm having a big ole tag sale this weekend, Friday and Saturday. Do you want to come by ahead of time to get the ratty cage (with assorted paraphernalia thrown in)?

Icky feelings are normal. It's a question of reaction or actions. If I'm reacting to him, I feel horrible. If I am taking action, I feel better.

Everyone only has control of three feet around them. The rest is out of their hands. Keep your feet in the present. You're worth it.

*hugs*

PS.. It doesn't matter if he hangs around to talk to your daughter. Most likely she'll be flitting about. And I do arrive early to performances with book in hand, get a great seat up front and read and relax. Why should I give ex prime real estate in my mind?

Thanks, Gyps...yes, I'd love to stop by. Kids are away tonight, so I'll call later. I'm thinking of a tag sale, too.

it will bothers us to a degree hon, to see those men again, but I pray it will get better)))))

I sent this last night to my IC (not scheduled to see her for a few weeks):

Thursday is D10's concert at school. Her friend (gf's D9) is in the chorus, too. X is planning on being there, and I would guess that gf will go along, too.

My stomach is starting to turn...my head says I shouldn't care, but my gut is a different matter. Blech.

It is the first time that I might possibly see them together.

Every time I get to some level of acceptance, something else comes along to cut.

It is so hard to try to be strong...I think I suck at it, actually.

I'm going to call another family from scouts who I know is going (D10's other friend), and see if I can tag along with them / sit with them, something of a distraction. I am trying very hard to not talk to others about this anymore, or let myself fall into a pit of bitterness. I don't want to succumb or fall apart, anymore, especially in front of other people.

When is my life going to be not all-about-this?

Donna,
Please don't be too negative with yourself. These
situations are very new and uncomfortable, you are
not wrong for feeling that.

I love the idea of going with others, I don't care if
it's a stranger, don't go and sit alone. My other suggestion
is to nip out early and have a pre-arranged meeting
spot with D10(or let Dad bring her home). This
will avoid the aftermath of hellos and awkward possibilities
of running into each other.

Know that planning ahead to manage stress works!

You can do anything...you've already climbed a way too
high mountain (and didn't even want to). I'll be thinking
of you.
IC

So, that is the plan. Think I'll have her dad bring her home, since I will be up front and bringing her, then cheering her on. I'll use the excuse of getting her some flowers for a job well-done. I'll sit with my S and my friend's family, right up front.

S13 has BMX tonight...I didn't email x to remind him. Wonder if he remembered to take him? No emails or calls, so I'm thinking not. But then again, S should have remembered, too.

(My stomach/thoughts are better, btw. Think it helps to have a plan.)

Good job. Plans are important to hopefully circumvent awkward situations.

$\:D$ $\:D$ $\:D$ !!!

I'm trying...

You are succeeding... Now, let it be ok to succeed $\:D$ It is really ok to be ok. You're still a good girl $;\)$

Did I tell you that I named my "inner princess" Celia Grace? Two of the most precocious, smart-mouthed, divas I have in my kindergarten classes this year! They are very smart, obnoxious, bossy, loud, funny, feared, revered, artistic, always-right, beautiful little girls!

Celia told me one day to come look at what she did - she had cut a pattern of holes in her socks in her lap under the table when she finished her work early. Didn't know why I was so upset...
Grace convinced all the kids at her table that it was a great idea to draw scribbles ON the brand-new table, like "frames." She had no idea how hard crayon was to get off silestone - but she does now, after 45 minutes and a sponge each for her and her "crew."

Neither of them cried - just met it all with more curiosity.

OK Celia Grace. I want you to wear something princess-like tonight :-) A hair clip, a bracelet, stick a piece of lace in your undies if you have to...

Do it often :-)

Think of it like the pitcher in Bull Durham wearing garters.

I swear I am going to the bridal store this weekend and buying a tiara. Ty isn't the only one who can feel pretty...

And I love that movie. Have you ever tried to breathe through your eyelids? But the tub scene is much more fun...or the kitchen table...
miss those days, but in due time!

Donna, love the Tiara idea....you go Celia Grace!!!

The first time you see them together will be hard...I still have yet to see that...but have seen her....and him with their baby in a picture...it was weird...but that is all it was...you may be surprised...

After the first time seeing them together you won't have to wonder anymore...

Hugs,
Vali/Alix

A$$ got there at the same, early time that we did - they were just going through the door when we pulled up to a close spot. The whole crew. And they took the first row.

So S13 and I had to sit farther in the back. I was distracted, but pretty ok.

Just blech - I don't want to deal with this emotional fall-out anymore.

X is broken up into pieces inside of my head at this point - I mourn the husband who died. I try to promote a R between this random-voice-on-the-phone-occasionally/free babysitter/kids' guardian when I can (kind of like one of the kids' teachers...?). And then there is this handsome man, walking around with some other woman, laughing and smiling, who reminds me of all I lost, and pain, and missing...it is only when I see him that I am brought back to a painful existence. It freaks me out to be close to him, because I can actually feel him before I even see him (even if he happens to be close-by on the same highway - its happened twice!) I so want that part to just shrivel up and go away...

ANYway....

The concert was nice, not too long, kids sounded great. Went and bought pink and green flowers for D when she got home, then took the kids out to the diner. We actually got very silly over some ice cream, laughing a little too much and goofing around, so things ended on a much better note.

I found out yesterday that I was transferred...2 new schools, sets of administrators, over 700 kids to meet and remember names, etc. Kindof sux, but at least I have a job.

I am looking on the bright side of things, too. I know that the principal here is going to kick herself after she sees my artshow Funny thing is, the woman I am switching with is actually someone I am mentoring! She will only be year 3 next year...

I'll miss the brand-new space and the kiln, and of course the kids I've gotten to know. But its going to be more of a PITA than anything - no major worries. I have taught in the toughest schools in the district and learned so much - this will be cake. And a chance to make new friends.

I covered bus duty this morning without being asked, and she came over while I was there, chatting and telling me about a problem she "solved" for me (I had already taken care of it with another teacher). Of course, no mention of me moving schools next year. Whatever. Another avoider.

*****

Well, went to the concert, early. Of course, x and his crew were just getting there, too! Blech; so much for plans. S13 and I just sat toward the back and left right at the end. X brought her home, where she found the flowers I bought her, then we went out to dinner - ended up a good night for her (even though I still got messed up inside - frustrating, but not terrible; poor S13 saw a weak moment, but not a weak night).

I had to call him back today - he left a message saying that he was picking the kids up earlier than I wanted (AGAIN!). I called him back and said no, that doesn't work for me, or the kids. He tried to get into how it always come back to ME, never him! Ah, poor baby. I just kept saying it doesn't work for me and the kids. He said he didn't understand why I "couldn't be ready earlier, isn't 1+1/2 hours enough, why aren't you packed the night before," etc., etc.. I said, You aren't here, and you can't tell me how to get ready the day before - this isn't about you, but about a calm transition for the kids. He complained that he had to change plans for haircuts - I reminded him that I have been telling him about this time change for a few months, now, and also that I let the kids go to his house more than an hour EARLY 3 times out of 4. I am trying to work together in this, don't make a huge issue over a half hour. [I didn't even mention him getting them back an hour late Wed from S13's bmx this week]
Finally, after some more whining from him, I just said You know, you CHOSE this life - deal with it! Very calm, never raised my voice.

Probably shouldn't have gone there, since of course he started saying "Oh, so its back to that again - get over it, etc., etc."
My silence made him change the subject to this weekend (he is taking the kids to Atlantic City since one of her girls is in some kind of competition), him telling me what he was doing with them (hotel for Saturday night, might be late Sun if traffic; my kids had already told me) - I asked what the sleeping arrangements were going to be for our kids... He said We'll all be in one room. I asked, S13 in a room with all those unrelated girls? He said Don't worry about it - he'll sleep with me. I started to ask, will a hotel even allow 8 people in one room? and he interrupted to say that he didn't have the money to spend on a hotel for a week in Boston (where I just took the kids). [Poor baby; life sucks, huh?]

I asked that if they couldn't hear the call on Saturday night, could he make sure the kids got in touch with me. He said Yes, I'll extend the courtesy, even though you never do. I said, When?
Oh, how about every Tues night when I am waiting for S13 to call me after Youth Group? I said, Look, I ask the kids if they called their father - sometimes they just don't feel like it - your relationship with your children is between you and them; I don't get in the way of that. He said he didn't believe it. Believe what you want.

So, he said he would be at the house "when he could," and I said they will be out to meet him "when they could."

Do these a$$es get some kind of playbook to go by?

So, you are both acting out a little after last night's mini-drama?

How about this instead:

"he left a message saying that he was picking the kids up earlier than I wanted. So, I texted him saying that would not work today, he could pick them up at the scheduled time."

In what way would that have been insufficient?

Great job not letting him push your buttons more than he did -- but why allow him to do it at all?

I should have thought of the text - I actually had considered it, but didn't know what to write (let myself think I had to go into more explanation than I really needed to).

At least I am getting better - I'll think of the least amount of explanation I need to provide the next time.

He showed up at 5:15 tonight and phoned into the house for the kids. They went out at 5:30, relaxed and with their things.
I actually spoke briefly with S13 about the time thing this afternoon, and that I was going to stick with the 5:30 - he said, Really? Good for you, Mom! We could use the time.

wow.

I can actually see x behaving and thinking this way for the rest of his life - poor him, I am such a selfish person who always has to have her way!
Oh, well. Let him think what he wants to think.

dork!

I kicked back yesterday, giving myself permission to just do close to nothing. Today should be more productive; went to Church.

Interesting revelation today:
my x-sil just had a very "old friend" move in with her yesterday. Seems he finally left his wife. I think the family always suspected that they were a couple, that she was the OW, for more than 10 years, but this pretty much confirms it.

What's the chances of having 5 children, and 2 of them seem to accept that adultery isn't such a bad thing?
Out of the other three sibs, only one seems to have a healthy, balanced marriage.

Amazing what not being in the thick of it can lead to perspective. Makes me not miss the deep involvement so much. I just hope I am providing a better moral compass to my kids than what happened in my generation - the in-laws seem like such a good couple, but something obviously went very wrong.

Donna, after reading here for the past year, I always am mystified as to why ex's keep f'ing with LBS over petty things. They got what they wanted with the D, why can't they "move on"?

that's pretty sad, how 50% of marriages dont' make it, how would I guessed 3yrs ago that I'd be, along with my brother, the 50% that didnt' make it in my family?, my two sisters are married to two great men, I pray for them daily.

Quote:

I pray for them daily.

The National Day of Prayer is this week. We are taking time to pray for our troops, our country, our families and our marriages. Praying to God about the dire state of marriage in our modern culture is a major one.

Have a wonderful Monday Donna!

OK, do you think I am shooting myself in the foot? Do I really want to work in an environment where the principal has already said as much as she doesn't think I am up for the job and wants a different art teacher?

Ugh, this is what I am facing. I don't have a track record with this woman - got the bomb 2 months after I started working for her.

I was saying good-bye today to the media teacher I've become friends with, and she told me that she is trying to figure out how it can even be feasible to come up with enough practicum hours for her admin cert next year, when she has to work full time. I had a thought on the way home from work, and wrote her this letter...
I appreciate any and all feedback:

Quote:

Dear Kathy -

I either had a God breeze or a flash of nonsense (told you I'm not sure which is which right now and I'm letting others with more experience decide!) pop into my head on the way home from work tonight. Don't feel you have to answer here or even in person; I just wanted to throw something out there.

If I wasn't afraid to toss my whole career, being pretty confident that I could do the job as I had always hoped to do...
and you need administrative hours...

I wondered if there might be some kismet thing going on, where you might be able to help me set appropriate goals and monitor my attaining them for the remainder of the year into next year...

all while getting the hand-on experience that you needed for your 902.

We could even do some work over the summer to front-load what your requirements are while I finish my grad studies and lay the foundation for work next year. I had planned on getting all of the lessons I developed for the mult-cultural piece down in writing, anyway. I know that one of my major goals would be to reach out beyond my students to their parents and the community more effectively, and will be doing that regardless of where I end up (bulletin boards, volunteers, special projects, etc.) Just wasn't something I had a lot of practice with at Morris Street.

If Helena still doesn't think it is a good fit, I can transfer at the end of next year - the same teacher who put in for it this year puts in for transfers every year so she has the option if she wants to take something new.

One little thing I would pass on to Helena about Donna Benner, would be to ask her what her philosophy is on supporting literacy and numeracy in the classroom. That and the tech pieces are the only issues that I could guess might come up - otherwise, she is an excellent teacher.

I really had no hope of any of this before we talked tonight - I was just saying good-bye to someone who I felt was a friend and had confided with in the past. And, like I said, this could be the LAST thing that you want to consider, let alone Helena, so I'm just kind of throwing it out into the universe to see what is meant to be. I can't say that I'm not a little afraid that this might even fly, as to "what did I get myself into?!" but I didn't want to drop it completely either and later wonder What If... As a former control freak, I have to say that the new go-with-the-flow thing is not all bad. If I don't hear anything of this, I'll just go-with-the-flow to the new schools, no prob!

I do hope that your discussion at WestConn went alright - spotlights are not fun (and I'm editing this to be more professional). See ya manana about the posters...

--Donna

So, if the choice lands back in my lap, should I try again with it next year, or just cut my losses and move on?

(Differences---

Now:
I know all of my students and staff members.
I have an awesome room in the "problem" building, brand new with a kiln. I helped with the initial order for the room and set it up (its a new building).
It is a high-tech building, and I'm a high-tech girl $\:\)$ My 5th graders all "messed with" Mona Lisa recently using computer graphics (they were AWESOME!) I also wrote and implemented the multi-cultural arts curriculum, with all of the authentic artifacts from around the world (an in-school museum that I shopped for, which would have to stay there).
The other building, which has the tougher students, is only 2 days/week (in a crappy room) - but I also a proven track record there, with admin and staff who have worked with me for almost 10 years - no involved parents, but appreciative kids for the most part.
I love all of my kids.

If I Change:
Have to learn over 700+ kids, 2 new sets of staff and 2 new admin I've never worked with - a clean slate.
Both rooms are older but pretty decent.
I won't have the highest and lowest kids in district, but more of middle levels.
And the whole, UNKNOWN aspect.

Thoughts...?

((Stupid divorce - I don't think I would even BE in this position if I hadn't lost my mind for a while there with the mess!!!!!!!))

rather than decide the future when you don't know what it is, why not wait to see what you options are :-)

(Well, part of it is I put in for a transfer...I could rescind it. But the principal would most likely NOT like that very much and would be a PITA.)

But wait and see is good, too. There I go again, trying to think ahead...

Happy Mother's Day!! $\:\)$

kat

I'd answer your question, but I can't figure out what you are talking about in that letter.

Happy Mother' Day, Donna. Have the best day possible!

Happy Mother's Day!!!

Sara--
That letter was to a media teacher in my building, who I just found out was going for her administrative license.
After the last 1+1/2 years since I got the bomb and struggled with the fall-out, things at work haven't always been the priority as I would have made it (to say the least - I actually missed quite a bit of work, being out on leave first for spinal surgery, then for depression). Because I didn't have the track-record with my current admin, she decided that she'd like a new art teacher for next year, "suggesting strongly" that I put in for a transfer.

When I went to say bye to the media teacher, a friend, I discovered that she just signed up for the admin program and was struggling to find a way to fulfill all of her observation and practice hours while still teaching full-time.

I would have very much liked to have stayed at the building where I am at. Major draw-back is sticking myself in a sitch where my boss has already decided that she'd rather have another teacher...

sounds like I'm in the LBS role again, doesn't it?! So, I am trying to be much more DB about it. I had an idea, I put it out there, and I've decided that I will be happy either way this goes - I want to be at a job where I am valued, wanted and respected. I am confident and know that I can do the job (I know the part that I played in her forming her current opinion about me, and I have set goals and taken steps to address that). If she doesn't see my value, it will be her loss and I will just bring my skills to the new buildings. I'm not taking it personally.

prayers your ways hon))))) place this in God's hands.

I have.

Media teacher wrote me back and said she discussed it with the principal, and I should make an appt to talk with her.

Principal saw me in the hall and smiled, saying to set something up through the secretary for us to meet.

Another friend heard what other schools I may end up with, and warned me that the admin over there was crazy - most teachers had put in requests for transfers from there, already. NOT something I want to deal with!

So, we'll see what happens today.

********

S13 had his concert last night - last year he is playing the cello, since he wants to pick up ROTC in high school. It was drama-free, thankfully.
OW was going to go, but S13 asked her not to - said it would make me upset. S13 didn't want her there, but doesn't want to seem mean or piss off his father, so took me up on my offer to blame me for anything that made him uncomfortable or might upset his dad!
(We had just had that convo concerning phone calls...his father gets pissed when the kids aren't available to talk to him every night at 7, but sometimes they are in the middle of something, with friends, just not in the mood, etc...so I told them to blame me- maybe not the best precedent, but there is no talking to this man...)

ANYway, the concert was awesome, and out to ice cream after (D10 had peanut butter cup & popcorn flavors, topped with swedish fish - eww!)

Congrats on the meeting with the principal, it sounds promising $\:D$

As for S13 and D10, probably better for you to not offer to be in the middle of their R with their dad. Authentic interaction with him will be better for them. Instead, you are teaching them how to manage various peoples feelings (including your own) rather than being true to themselves and direct.

PROBABLY ENOUGH SAID. Avoid 4x8 by skipping the rest of this post.

As for S13, after he saw your pain and struggle with seeing XH's significant other (she is not the other woman, there are not three people in a romantic R), S13 was probably more honest than you wish he was when he asked her not to attend to protect you.

I'll tell you this: I have protected my mother's feelings all my life. I was taught to do this to keep her from having a breakdown of some sort. I knew it was my job to help keep her stable. As a result, I was alone through many of the worst things that have happened to me in my life. There is no way that I would have shared my troubles with my mother when I was growing up, and there were terrible things that happened to me. S13 saw your pain at seeing X's GF. It doesn't matter that it was a few seconds. If you want your kids to feel safe enough with you to come to you with their problems, then you need to be strong enough to be OK with how the world is today.

Quote:

D10 had peanut butter cup & popcorn flavors, topped with swedish fish - eww!)

GAG!!!!!! Popcorn flavor ice cream? That is just wrong!

Quote:

As for S13, after he saw your pain and struggle with seeing XH's significant other (she is not the other woman, there are not three people in a romantic R), S13 was probably more honest than you wish he was when he asked her not to attend to protect you.

Seems that's just what happened.

It sucks so much that I have to now learn to be the pretender. I don't want either of them picturing me as the weak, pathetic, unwanted ex-wife. I don't want my kids to see me that way, either.
It hurts, and now I have to find a way to mask that pain. I'd still rather something unpleasant happen to her and she wasn't a factor, anymore.

I know it shouldn't matter at this point. I saw him in my driveway from the car yesterday when he dropped off D10 on the motorcycle, and he just looked like someone I used to know - my heart didn't flutter, his beard is too full and doesn't compliment him, but there is still...something. Familiar, maybe? I don't know.

I am trying so hard to put my kids first. But I don't know if or when I will ever really get over this. Be able to be in the same room with them and have it not matter.

You know the saying that when you have kids, its like walking around with your heart outside of your body? I feel like that...a huge part of my heart is in him, and I can't have it anymore. Being around him reminds me...and her there, having what was once mine?

Damn, I wish he was more of an a$$hole. I want to hate him. I want to be happy to be rid of him.

Or be happy for him, completely ok with the way everything is. Be grateful that she isn't a witch to my kids. Instead, I want her to disappear.

Quote:

You Were Mine lyrics

I Can't Find A Reason To Let Go
Even Though You've Found A New Love
And She's What Your Dreams Are Made Of
I Can Find A Reason To Hang On
What Went Wrong Can Be Forgiven
Without You, It Ain't Worth Livin' Alone

Sometimes I Wake Up Crying At Night
And Sometimes I Scream Out Your Name
What Right Does She Have To Take You Away
When For So Long, You Were Mine

I Took Out All The Pictures Of Our Wedding Day
It Was A Time Of Love And Laughter
Happy Ever After
But Even Those Old Pictures Have Begun To Fade
Please Tell Me She's Not Real
And That You're Really Coming Home To Stay

Sometimes I Wake Up Crying At Night
And Sometimes I Scream Out Your Name
What Right Does She Have To Take Your Heart Away
When For So Long, You Were Mine

I Can Give You Two Good Reasons
To Show You Love's Not Blind
He's Two And She's Four, And You Know They Adore You
So How Can I Tell Them You've Changed Your Mind

I Remember When You Were Mine

I don't wake up at night anymore. But I think I have only gotten good at ignoring the elephant that is in my life. There is just too much else to worry about most of the time, now. So I try not to think about it.

I feel like I have to be able to wrap this up tighter and tighter in an ugly little ball and bury it deep in my heart, because I can't change it, and I can't share it with anyone, anymore - who wants to hear this sh!t, anyway?

I don't know how people get over their spouses, someone you promised to love and cherish your whole life. I think the best I'll ever do is to learn to live without him.

Honestly you accept that the person you loved is dead. There is just someone walking around in the shell of his body. This alien...there is nothing to like so I try to not let him bother me but he just keeps picking at the same old places, trying to make me bleed and cave in to him. Nothing to like about that.

Make your own scenario or use mine, you are creative. I am sure you can think of something. $;\)$

kat

Hard to keep my head away from finding that old familiar groove. I keep striving for grace, but it always seems so far away. I just got my period today, to boot. And a giant canker sore that is tearing through my lower lip and making it impossible to talk or eat (anyone have a remedy to try? I even tried homeopathic - did squat).

I called the dr on the way home tonight; been sleeping or sleepy WAY too much. Doesn't feel like the depression (really - today was unusual as of late), but maybe a side-effect of the meds...?

Life has never been so hard as these last few years. I am just grateful for what I have left.

btw, I did talk to S13 quick about the gf and the concert. I said that if is didn't matter to him one way or the other if she went (his words), then it wouldn't matter to me, not to worry about it. He said ok. I've told him before that it is ok with me if he finds a way to be alright with the whole situation...he had to deal with her, where as I really don't. That I was actually proud of him and his sis for getting to a place to get along, and that I was working on getting there, too.

Quote:

I don't want either of them picturing me as the weak, pathetic, unwanted ex-wife. I don't want my kids to see me that way, either.

Ok, some of that may be the hormones talking but it comes from a deep place inside you that is still battling negative thinking. You have to stop thinking of yourself as the weak, pathetic, unwanted ex-wife. I think you are projecting your own feelings toward them. Honestly, does it really matter what they think? Your xh is living his own life and really not concerned with yours. Why be concerned with his?

Yes, these are all the same things I battle every darned day so I feel your pain.

I think of my life as a long winding road, a mosaic, full of colorful and different stones... back back there are the happy times when kids were little and x was still a decent person, those are still colorful and pretty parts, then there is a gray part, these past 3yrs, a bit dull, but part of my life nonetheless...
It's been a year now that he's not in my life -- the present is a new part of my road and it has began to take more color, I have so much road ahead of me and, oh! the choices!!

Him in my life during the good years, was part of my journey, not the culmination, not the main part, but a section of my life, it's behind me, the good memories still shine and I think of them sometimes, they are part of my past life after all.

Now let's both look ahead, let's keep walking hon, there is still a lot of road ahead and so many more things await us.

Job front - looks like I am going to stay put. Had the meeting with the principal and we'll have a plan in place. She is just more of a politician than I am used to, and these parents are very active and vocal. So, have to promote what I do in my classroom more, make sure bulletin boards go up, send out a newsletter, get volunteers in my room. Once I have the backing of the parents, I'll be golden.

Been way to tired as of late, no matter how much I sleep. I put a call into the dr, and she said its ok to cut back again on the Effexor - back to the low-dose. I'm starting today, so we'll see how that goes.

X is just not a part of my life. The slight things that I come across (the occasional tool, the time thing with the kids, minor $ things) just get dealt with pretty quickly. And my energies are turning elsewhere. Another therapy session this Fri - I need to see what the next step is. I don't think I am co-dependent anymore, but need to learn more about that, get the focus back on me alone and my goals.

Work was started Tues on my studio - I'll have it done for the summer, and hopefully will have some classes to bolster my income, plus room to get back to my art. I'm excited, know its going to look beautiful!

Hope everyone has a great weekend to kick off summer!

Glad to hear the good news :-)

Well, looking at patterns, being away from the boards usually means that things are getting much better for each of us. Seems that's the way it's going for me, anyway. Things HAVE been much better. Lot of good stuff in my life, and too busy to post it all.

But now, just as I was going to go to bed, I contemplate what today is.

May 31st.
5/31/86

Must have written that date thousands of times. It was our special day, the most revered on my calendar. The day we met, then our wedding anniversary in 1992.

23 years today...or I guess more truthfully, would have been 23 years today. I'm not sure when to stop counting. Would it be the anniversary of the divorce? The first time he slept with the ow? The bomb?

So, a little grief. Similar to thoughts of my mom or dad on their birthdays, or the anniversary of their deaths.

He emailed me tonight about Father's Day and wanting to have the kids most of the weekend; just business. Can't help but wonder if he feels anything on this day, or on any day. Not that it matters.
This is the third year that we haven't been together on this day, that we didn't recognize it together. And the year before that, our anniversary was only a week or two after they started the PA.
I didn't look up to the night sky, hoping that he would feel me, hear me from across the miles, realize that we were both under the same moon.

I think, for me, this passing sadness is just in honor of what had been - recognizing it. My own little Memorial Day. Thankful for all the good that was, and for the good and growth that has come out of it.

So, now for some Thought Changing:

Sunroom / studio is 90% done. It is open to my bedroom, now, having taken a double-set of sliders out to replace a bad, outer set. I can't wait to paint!

This has been a glorious weekend! I can't remember the last time that we actually had a real Spring with normal temps in the 70s. Yesterday, my district hosted a celebration of the Arts at the local college, and it was fantastic! I worked hard for 11 hours with like-minded people, made new contacts for my networks in local art studios, and hob-knobbed with the Superintendent, Asst Spt., a few other principals, saw many of my students, and made art things with kids out in the sunshine!
Church was great today, and I bought the flowers off the altar to bring home. The scent is wafting through the whole house. Afterwards, went out to lunch with some friends, planted flowers, read the Sunday paper, went shopping for homegoods. And then the kiddos were home!

Lots of things coming, and things are looking up.

Heard a great quote today:

If you live with one foot in the past and the other in the future, you end up pissing on the present eventually!

Nightmare last night: X being executed by electrocution for the sh!tty things he did to me and our family. No one went to support him. He died alone, with no mention of gf in the obit the next day. I was really upset and sad for him - didn't want it to happen. Woke just weirded out.

Tired from work - it's going to be a crazy week. No one volunteered to help hang their own kids' artwork, so I stayed and worked for 3 hours alone. One volunteer set for tomorrow; my kids will come help, too.
And a fourth grader stole a confiscated iPod right off my desk today. Then lied and cried that it was so unfair that he was being blamed - he was innocent!
Well, 2 other kids saw him. The iPod was found in his shoe after getting permission from his parents to search him. WTH?!

Such a weird dream!!!!!! That had to be really unsettling.

Sorry about work. That doesn't surprise me that no one volunteered to help. Parents don't get very involved in their kid's schooling anymore. I wish I could be more involved but unfortunately I work full-time plus plus plus.

The 4th grader doesn't surprise me at all. Happens all the time. It's the entitlement thing these kids have now.

Originally Posted By: Donna...Found

If you live with one foot in the past and the other in the future, you end up pissing on the present eventually!

Great quote , one I need to take to heart a bit more , Great to read that you are doing well , I have not had time to read the 30 odd previous threads though !

Dave

Hey Ms. Donna..

*hugs*

((((((((((((Donna))))))))))))))

I see you are sans voice again huh? Sorry! That stinks.

Donna! Talk to me! What's up lady-friend!!!!!

FA!!! (and all

)

Things are doing pretty well. Yesterday was a year post-D, and it wasn't terrible. Wrapped up the day with students, cleaned my room, went to my women's group to talk about "the ground where you sow your seeds." Just got back from a trip into NYC for a play my cousin was in.

I am SO looking forward to this summer!! I can't emphasize that enough. I put in long hours in the last month or two of work, and can't wait for things to ease (only one or two days over the summer of work).

My studio is DONE!!! The painting is complete, and it looks incredible. I picked a warm beige that matches with everything, and can't wait to decorate. I'm not worrying about the floor right away, so I can paint and make a mess to my heart's content this summer while I think about what I want.
Other work on the house is coming along, too. I'm having a deck built around the studio into the garden (which is also being completely renovated), and trying to decide on what to do with the pool. The garbage dump was removed, remember, and now I have to see if I should either 1) fill it in, 2) gunite, 3) liner, 4) fiberglass drop-in form, or 5) fill it in part-way and sit an above-ground pool partially into the hole.

X is set to complete the A/C work on 7/11, almost a year past the agreement date, but at least it will get done. There has still been some drama that I do my best to stay above about the holiday schedule, him thinking there are still things here at the house that belong to him, him getting the kids excited about stuff before he asks me about it, but it goes through email for the large part. Had a rather decent phone convo of about 15 minutes with him last week, though. I know now that he will never apologize for anything that happened, that he will blame me for any inconvenience or hardship that he experiences in his life (did you know I am the cause of all the east coast rain?), and I just don't care anymore. It's just the way it is. I still frustrate the he!! out of him when I just don't roll on what he wants, anymore (like trading a leaky 96 pop-up camper for the $12,000 hot tub! Um, NOT!)
He wants to take S13 to a Yankee game on 7/1, and I said that instead of driving all the way north only to have to drive all the way back, maybe I would take the kids to the Bronx Zoo during the day and he could pick him up from there. He said that he'd like to spend some time with us at the zoo, too (!), and I said that we might as well, that it would be good for the kids if we could work a way to be around each other with and for the kids, so we'll see what comes of that.

I still have to say, I can't believe the rabbit hole this whole thing has been. And I finally feel like I have come back to being me, again. I can't explain it, except to say that I am at peace, feeling normal, getting excited about things in my life again.

Tired, so off to bed. Tomorrow is looking promising...

I need some advice on the following email exchange:

X: i heard back from someone about the tub. he is very interested wants to meet me there to see it on tuesday afternoon on my way home. we should be there by 4. he was the most serious offer and most interested. it should sell for $1600. if he wants it it should be out this week. i will let you know as soon as i do. please, please let me know you received this. thanks

Me: I want to put an offer in for the tub; I think the kids would get a lot of use of it since we don't have a pool. I have to stretch, but can offer $400 (which would be equivalent to $1200 since I will also not get the 1/2 profit from a sale). Looks like the season of the "staycation." Please let me know by tomorrow, so I know if someone else would be coming by the house.

X: i understand that the kids may use it, but i am also sure it would only be a couple of times. there is no room to swim they will get bored very quickly. also, if i have an offer on the table for 1600 why would 400 be resonable. you say you wouldn't be getting half the profit but you would be getting the tub. if this guy calls me we will be there tomorrow afternoon.

Me: So, you are looking at getting $800, instead of $400, and not letting the kids have the use of it. You can't be "sure" that the kids would only use it a few times - I'm not getting the lake pass this year. Both of them have said that they would use it - ask them. What do you think would be a reasonable offer?

This all after him saying he was listing the $13,000-original-cost hot tub for $5000. This other guy certainly talked him down quite a bit. Can't believe I am haggling with the kids' FATHER for something that the kids would use! So bizarre that he would even take money for it, since it is for them. (I tried to be good and not mention this fact). I think he has taken up permanent residence on the other planet.

So, I am out $1200 but get to keep the tub.
Or, I get $800, and no tub.

ugh, more...

from X:
the tub has been there for almost 7 years and they have barely ever used it. is still don't think it is for them. if you are "sure" they will use it how's this. i know money is tight but i think this is reasonable, you give me 500 and a letter saying that i am not responsible for the a/c. my time is worth alot more than that and i think you really don't want me in the house anyway. then we can stop "haggling" and be done with all this crap and move on. what do you say?

me:
They barely ever used it because you kept the temp too high for ANY of us to use it (remember when you bought it to bring us closer together?) Do you really think I want to keep the thing for ME, given all the history that it has? Of course, I would rather not haggle over something that is for our kids.
Do you even notice when I put the kids first, like this past weekend? I don't have ulterior motives.
If you are so desperate for the money, I'll give you $500. I can't afford to have someone else do the A/C - that needs to be done, and it's almost a year since you signed a contract to do the work and gave your word. Your children live in this house, and need the AC to work reliably. You have no idea what I think, not for a very long time, so stop making assumptions.
Funny thing, I stumbled across cards from 2005 from you yesterday while I was looking through the file cabinet. What have you turned in to. Try to eliminate the nastiness.

We still have to find a mutual time to go over the holiday schedule; give me a few times that work for you, and I'll get back to you with a confirmed time.

***
Yep, I let a little emotion slip in. But come on, I'm human! WHY is he such a continual a$$???????

Hi Donna,

Saw your plea for help on FB and came over to read. And - oh - the memories this all brought back. Gosh - you'd think his name was "Chuck" or something.

First off - divorce is a business transaction and as much as it is tempting to go off on him during this time - it doesn't help you or your situation. (I was told this repeatedly and still reacted the way you did.). He will not "get it". He is just about the money now.

Compare to this. Our house was built for our disabled son. That didn't stop him from wanting me to sell it so he could get his bucks out. To heck with the fact I had to move into a house with stairs with an adult son who could not climb them - not his problem!

Neither of you can say whether the kids will use it or not. I think you should decide which is of more value to you - the tub or the AC repair. If it were me - I'd take the tub. I'd figure out the AC with someone else, anyone else but him. I'd never let him in the house again. That is what I did and things got better since I made that rule.

As far as schedules etc - I think some of this negotiating needs to be handled by the attorneys since it is back to being a hurling match between the 2 of you. Divorce can be quite nasty and you and I had some of the worst situations to deal with.

He can't really sell the tub without your approval. If you want it, don't sign. But be prepared - you'll lose something else. Think carefully about what you want the most and what you're willing to concede. Choose wisely.

SF

You wouldn't know that it has been a YEAR since our divorce! He just keeps shoveling the crap. It stuns me, really.

He is just pissed that I didn't "fall" for his stupid offer to trade the 96 leaky camper for the hot tub he started the affair in (I was SUCH an idiot, and turned the other cheek when he kept it too hot for his own family to use, but then-OW would walk across the street, past his parents' apt, and hope in for an hour or 2 while I was inside with the kids and the dishes).
I've never said it to him, but if he insisted that the tub was half his, he was going to get his half - cut down the middle with a demo saw! That, or filled with as much dog crap as I could find....
I mean, come on, talk about rubbing my face in it. I can't believe to what depths of insensitivity he goes to.

And now he wants to get out of other things he agreed to, and I was good enough to not bring it to court and have contempt charges filed!

Are we all really sure that a skillet up the head doesn't bring any sense back into them? I've been tempted over and over again for close to three years, now!

Ugh, just frustrating, and venting.

He hasn't been in the house since about 3 weeks after I tossed his stuff, back in 7/07; his friend helped him clean out the rest of his things. I've made so many improvements, finished so many jobs that he half-a$$ed started....I almost welcome him to come in one last time and see that, hey, she didn't fall apart! Wow, what did I really leave behind? (Of course, I KNOW that he will never allow himself to think this way, but it would make me feel better to kind of go Nah-Nah silently to myself).

this reminded me of me and my X. he was always so concernd about the money he would make off of something. we had a desk (no drawers, just a cheap thing we bought and put together) and I wanted to donate it to good will and he wanted to sell it. I say keep the tub. You know your kids.. if you say they will use it than they will. Stay strong ! sorry its not much advice, I am alittle rusty posting on here.

ditto on the very last line above. And do think very well if the kids will get to use it or if it will one huge thing on the way that will need maintenance/cleaning and that no one uses often, will it cost to keep it in good shape, can you deal with it?
if yes then keep it.

this is the last email from him. color me surprised (not).

from x:
go to hell!! i am not the one who has a problem with making assumptions. you had no right to assume the tub to be yours and incorporate it into your yard after you signed a contract saying it was to be sold. you spoke to the kids and brought their emotions into this when they should not have been involved. you were the one that insisted that the tub be sold in the first place. as for the a/c, i tried multiple times in the fall to get in there and do the work but you were not "emotionally ready" for me to be in the house. (i have the e-mails to prove it), then in the winter my back gave out and i had surgery and lost an entire month of pay as well as being on four day weeks for 6 months, all the time while my income dropped by 20% you continued to receive your money. now i am able to do the work and I WILL!. you also gave your word that you would not be in the house and signed a contract to that effect. you want to pull this paperwork out of your ass whenever it is convenient for you. keep your 500 i will sell the tub for as much as i can get. the kids can swim here whenever they are here. i have at least three neighbors that have offered swim time. i can't believe that you have the nerve to accuse me of being the nasty one. look in the mirror once in a while. you are unbelievable.

as far as the holidays...i have the same contract you keep pulling out. you signed it too!!

Oh Sweetie, you know that they can still push those darn buttons when it suits them. I think you should go through your attorney and really not talk to him because he is going to do his best to make you feel terrible. You know he certainly couldn't be doing this kind of stuff to someone who really is as wonderful as you.

Find someone else as far as repairs, he just isn't worth it. this is your home now and it doesn't matter what the kids can do at "his" house, you are interested in what they can do at yours. Hang in there hon.

kat

I sent the whole mess to my IC. It still seems we need a referee, doesn't it? Like we don't even speak the same language...
It is so sad, especially after seeing some of the sentiments that he wrote such a short time before the bomb. Still makes no sense.

I want to speak to the IC, and am hoping that I can set something up between her, the kids' IC, and the two of us, to see if we can get to some kind of communication without him flying off the handle every time he doesn't get his way. The kids' IC was going to do co-parenting training once we got to that point....just seems that it all has to come out in the open, handled, and then left in the past.
Cheaper than the lawyers, anyway.

I wonder how he would feel if his emails got forwarded to all his friends and family? I would never do that, but does he really think that he comes off in a good light in the way he speaks to me? Would he be happy if the kids read this junk from him? I just don't get it.

I really believe that at this point, he wishes I had outright killed myself in my suicidal depression. His mother has wondered if he didn't try to push me to it.

I am sure that he feels totally comfortable and correct in his thinking. Just as I do. Only difference, is there is ZERO empathy of attempt at understanding on his part.
Am I just as delusional as he is, at this point?

Donna,

Whoooooaaaa.

Yes, XH is being a complete jerk. No doubt. But you have launched into rehashing and emotional blackmail in what should be a business deal. The button pushing is definitely not one-sided here.

You are throwing a bunch of random stuff at XH that is totally inappropriate. The mention of the card, the "bringing us closer together" line, and so on and so forth. You are trotting the same old sort of stuff. Why? Make him see the light? Whatever your goal, change it. This is really where things started to escalate. Just stop. Focus on the business.

What exactly is the arrangement with the hot tub? Does your divorce settlement say who will sell it? Does XH have the right to sell it without your agreement?

Right now, you are quibbling about $400. This is so NOT worth it. If he sells it for $1600, then he would get $800. You have $500 available. Ask your tenants for a one-time $300 hot-tub premium and be done. Or, give him $500 and ask him to take $50 off support for 10 months to give him a total of $1000. This gives him $200 more but spreads out the cost to you. Whatever. Focus on the financial arrangement.

Also, you are effectively asking for him to give you $400 for a luxury item. This is not reasonable, nor should you expect it. How much are you willing to contribute to the upkeep of his swimming pool? It would be unreasonable for him to ask you to do so. How would you feel if he tried to emotionally blackmail you into reduced support so that he can better maintain the pool and get a new slide for it because the kids would enjoy it. No way. Same with proceeds he can get from the hot tub.

That being said, again, XH is clearly being a jerk. Zero surprise there. If he refuses $800 when that is all he would get from the guy he wants to sell it to, then you should look closely at the actual divorce settlement to discern your rights and weigh your options carefully.

"XH,

The offer you are considering would put $800 in your pocket. I propose the following so that you will benefit equally: __________________.

Alternatively, I will trade your labor for the AC service for your share of the hot tub. This might be attractive as it is a quick way to tie off two loose strings at once. So, you give me your share of the hot tub and I will take care of the AC.

Let me know what you think.

Donna"

P.S. Just read your last email. I'd skip the idea of using this business matter as a way to pull him into some kind of C session with you. Let it go. This is business.

Stick to business. Stay off the phone, and skip the zoo.

I was wondering where you were

wish I had a way to get in touch, but glad to see you here.

It is a business deal, you are right. SO going to skip the zoo. Let him figure out the transportation.

I like your written response, and will send that in the morning. An objective viewpoint was needed.

I know that I let some emotional stuff get in there. I've kept it bottled up for more than a year, and this whole thing just got to me.

What was my goal? I did loose track of that. It was to have the hot tub for the kids (I probably won't even use the thing). And I let it go towards trying to get some empathy from a stone. Pisses me off that I have to pay for something that our family already paid for and has been sitting in the yard for more than a year. I have been slow to anger, and some things are still fuming below the surface for me, which I have to let go. I keep thinking I did, then the sticky thing comes back in sitches like this. (Remember the $500 in jewelry that he put on my credit card just after the bomb, but "threw away?" And I had to pay the bill with my refi. Still needles me, and I just have to let it go - it's BUSINESS).

The agreement said the hot tub would be sold and the proceeds split evenly. We both placed ads (at least he said he did); I concluded that no one wanted to buy the thing. I don't think he even tried to sell it, hoping that he could talk me into giving it to him. It just sat here for a year.
My assumption was that, something of no value, split evenly, means that he gets half of zero. He didn't like that.

OK, in the grand scheme of things, if it takes another $800 to be done with him, it is worth it. Better yet, he takes the offer and writes it off completely. We'll see.

This was the response I sent tonight before reading here:
"Do not come to my house tomorrow. If the gentleman would like to see the tub, give him directions and I will be here to show it. I need his name and number.

I am not addressing the rest of your email tonight."

As far as the co-parenting thing is concerned, do you see this dynamic changing, ever, without some mediation/intervention/referee?

Thanks for stopping in, friends. I am so glad to have you all here for the times I need it - I never would have dreamed that it would have gotten better, though, but it certainly has! LOTS less drama overall, so not much to post about over the last few weeks (before this)!

"I've kept it bottled up for more than a year, and this whole thing just got to me."

There is no reason at all to keep it bottled up. But the thing to do is to find an appropriate outlet -- your XH is not the right person. There is no R to work out anymore. You don't need to resolve those problems in your XM because it no longer exists.

I think far more important to co-parenting than roping your XH into therapy (YOUR agenda for a long time which I suspect amounts to some WIN in your mind) is your ability to let go and move on, to dump the view that he still "owes you" in some way (as with the hot tub), and to get past the need to punish him. You are still being somewhat co-dependent on a man in an M, of which neither exist anymore. So, you are putting that on XH. For instance, you still fantasize about "showing him" how far you have come... Have you considered going back to al-anon for awhile?

P.S. Great job with the heat-of-the-moment last email before bed -- very impressive

so what did xh say? Any progress?

I relented and the tub was sold today. Just got $800 cash. He will still be doing the work on the A/C.

Progress...maybe. After a set-back. We talked by phone yesterday morning. It lasted too long and went beyond business. He really wants to get together with an intermediary (IC) so we can get on with co-parenting. It went back and forth, lots of old stuff rising to the surface yet again.

But I finally figured something out (not before me telling him that I don't want to be divorced - I was SO angry at myself for even going there, because I know that I don't want to be married to him anymore, either!)

After calming down, I called him back and read him the following:

Quote:

I wanted to say something. I am not happy with the way I reacted before. But I finally realize what it is about, what it has been about all along.

Divorce is not the way things should be; it is against God�s plan. It is terrible for the kids, and has long-standing effects on them, especially as they go into their adult lives. I see how it hurts them on a daily basis.

I am not like what you experienced on the phone today; not anymore. I can�t even remember when I had that reaction last. On most accounts, I have adjusted very well to the way things are, and am making a good life for myself, happy with friends and family.

But I carry around the knowledge that things aren�t right. This is not the way children were meant to be raised � it hurts them.
And my mind keeps going back to the one thing that would make this right for them � an intact family. I am angry with myself that I keep going back there, like a worn groove in a record, trying to fix what can�t be fixed, for the kids, for the family, for us.

I know that it is not possible, anymore. I don�t want you in my life that way. And I mourn for that, for them. The kids and I are left to pick up the pieces, and make do with second best (or worse � second best would have been if you had died). It will never be right.

If you wanted the best for these children, you should have thought about what the consequences were when you betrayed your wife, and your family. You should have thought about that when you decided you didn�t want to try anymore, even when you KNEW that I loved you and would have done anything to make this marriage work. If you didn�t want a crazy ex-wife, as I suppose you love to see me and make sure to tell everyone I am, then maybe you should have lived up to your vows and made this right in the first place. I bet it�s so much easier to think you made the right choice when I fall apart like that. Anytime that I loose my own struggle in trying to make things right, remember what drives it before you get angry. Things would not be this way, I would not get this way, if you had made other choices. You don�t want effects on your kids? Well, that is just a consequence of your choices.

It tore you apart when I stepped up after the bomb, because you had already given up, and you saw that you shouldn�t have. You had already gone too far. This was a marriage that could have, should have been saved. I am angry about that, but will get over it. My life will settle and I will get past the effects of all this.
I don�t know if our kids ever will.

And that was ultimately your choice.

Not DB, I know. But something that I have needed to say for a long, long time.

Even after all this, he still wants to go to the IC (his idea, not mine). He wants to be friends, be able to do the best we can for the kids, given the situation.

I feel like I have just given up. Maybe that will be a good thing; who knows.

Part of the earlier convo included how he sees me as neglecting him and the kids. Said I tried to get away from them as soon as they were born. Um, I exclusively nursed until they could eat and have regular milk. I couldn't be away from them!
It comes down to this - he married someone who was more than he wanted. He said he wanted a wife and mother. He got, a wife, a mother, a sister, a daughter, a friend, an artist, a teacher, a community activist, a girl scout leader....I get involved; it's what I do (even when he met me, I was in Student Council, Senior Class, yearbook, scouts, etc.)

I think that the only way that this could have worked, is if I had given up everything. The woman he is with is only a girlfriend and mother. Period. No friends, hates her mother, etc.
I might have been able to do it for a while, but not permanently. And I know that I would not have been happy.

Maybe it isn't even the real reason, but it is enough. Enough for my brain to wrap around. Enough to know that I am not the terrible person he painted me to be. And I hope enough to remember that I don't want that, anymore.

Now write that down where you can see it. You don't want it(nor deserve it) anymore. Now move past it. You have said what you felt you needed to and now you won't be dragged back there again. Good for you hon.

kat

"he married someone who was more than he wanted. "

Donna,

You both married someone who was very different than what you really want in a mate. The marriage was never going to be one that met both your needs. It was a mismatch. Maybe it is time to countenance that XH was right -- divorce was the best thing. Of course, his path was not OK, but that does not mean that divorce was not ultimately the best thing for each of you.

As for your kids, you and XH are both strong presences in their lives. They have not been abandoned. They will be OK, and the more whole their parents are, the more OK they will be.

Glad to hear you have given up, the fight at this point amounts to nothing other than self-flagellation.

Now that you've found some anger, express it. Try any art like that?

I just said that same thing to my bff today...that if he really wanted the stay-at-home-and-have-no-outside-life-or-interests kind of person, then even if I tried to mold to that, I would be the one who was miserable after a while. I remember loving my children fiercely, but still longing to have adult convos, get back to teaching and making art, etc., after about a year.
Amazing it lasted that long.

On a different note, the studio is painted, electric all done, ceiling fan in

It looks AWESOME! Now, I just have to figure out if I can afford to repair the pool mess...

Good work, Donna! You're building for yourself here, it's great when you discover all the things that you can take care of yourself without a spouse. Keep at it

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was coming to an end...

he turned into a butterfly."

I found that on a plaque and bought it for the new studio yesterday

nice

&

told ya so

horoscope for today:

Quote:

Every now and then, relationships make you feel as if you've been cursed -- that's when they're not working out the way you want them to. The truth, however, is that when emotional situations don't work out the way they should -- in your opinion, anyway -- that doesn't mean the powers that be are angry, or that they're not listening to your silent pleas. It means that they have a slightly different opinion about what's good for you. Resolve to accept whatever comes along with a good attitude.

My son's best friend is having his birthday party today, and they were worrying out loud about the weather (it's raining - AGAIN!!) I said hey, if you want to throw in some work, you can have it here.

And so, the "man room" has been transformed! With the help of two teens, my D10, and me. I am SO pleased with it!!!! The space had become a dead zone since the x moved out 7/07 (he had been sleeping down there the last few months, and it is also where their relationship was consumated - eww). The mice, spiders and clutter had taken over.

We cleaned, put down baking soda on the carpets and furniture, vacuumed, febreezed, shined, rearranged...Even had the in-laws come down and take the last of the booze that they wanted, and I'll sell/give away the rest at a tag sale.
I want to be the house where all the kids come to hang out - then I know where mine are, get to know their friends, etc. The room has a gas fireplace, pool table, air hockey, fridge and microwave, slushy maker, wet bar (which will soon be sans alcohol), computer with internet that I can set up controls on, an older large screen tv with tapes and dvds, surround sound, board games....
I wish I had it growing up! I hope this is the first of many days and nights that they will use it.
Now, to really think about the pool....

What started out as a spur-of-the-moment idea turned out to be a great feat of accomplishment!

oh, and by the way, the hot tub is gone.

"oh, and by the way, the hot tub is gone."

Doesn't that feel great

I still have stuff in storage from the XM -- long story, we've moved a few times and house is under construction -- but the old stuff is like an albatross. I WANT IT GONE.

The new rec room sounds great! Can you spend $20 on creative decorating?

Quote:

You both married someone who was very different than what you really want in a mate. The marriage was never going to be one that met both your needs. It was a mismatch. Maybe it is time to countenance that XH was right -- divorce was the best thing. Of course, his path was not OK, but that does not mean that divorce was not ultimately the best thing for each of you.

Reflecting on this when I ran across this:

Quote:

..Too Young
The divorce rate for those 20 years old or younger is a whopping 85%�that means only 15% of all marriages between couples who are 20 years old or younger will survive. One key reason why these marriages dissolve is that a strong concept of self-identity needs to develop in someone before being matched well with someone with whom they can spend the rest of their lives.

Too Eager
When a person�s self-identity is not yet as developed as it could be, he or she may believe that marriage will make them whole and emotionally secure. Once married, however, they may find that their personal problems are still there, leading to disillusionment and sadness. In some extreme cases, someone in this situation may even project anger and resentment onto their spouse because their spouse hasn�t made them whole. Other times, a person�s concept of self-identity has been through substantial changes from the ending of a relationship or a series of relationships. Divorcees and those who have recently lost a partner are especially vulnerable to being over-eager to get married because they can feel so emotionally bad about themselves, and in general, that they feel the pain they are experiencing will magically go away once married. This notion is the farthest from the truth. Taking self-improvement steps to rebuild emotional health is necessary before partnering with another..."

X and I were together since I was 16, him 15.
He started to propose marriage to me within 6 months of dating; gave me a promise ring 9 months into the relationship, just 2 months past his 16th birthday and days before I turned 17.

Like I said in an earlier post, I guess I should be amazed that it lasted as good and as long as it did. I just thought we were one of the lucky ones, truly blessed.

I guess my own fog has lifted.

On one hand, I can clearly see areas of incompatibility. But, part of me still sees the potential that we had, that he had, to grow along side each other, if he had chosen that path.
Here's the thing, though - he didn't it.

I still don't believe in divorce. This is a marriage that could have been saved. But a more recent question I am coming up against....should it have?
Then, I look at my kids and think, Yes.
I wonder if I will feel the same when they are grown. I wonder if it would have been me who slowly fell out of love when the nest was empty, and I was left with a man who is a "light thinker," watches poker, fishing and NASCAR, etc. and falls asleep by 9 every night. I wonder if I would have ever realized his capacity to lie, betray trust, his lack of communication skills, etc. What would it have taken?

The IC said something to me this week....
when I was growing up, I learned to hold on for dear life, no matter how much it hurt, no matter if I ever got anything back out of it. Fear of abandonment was on an equal plane as my fear of death (and my mom played on that).

Apparently, I have a special, unique capacity to love, beyond reason. If that is a flaw, then I'll take it. It makes me more vulnerable, but I'd rather risk it than not feel deeply at all.

A realization - I am unusually open to loving others, even those who might not deserve it - unconditionally. Fiercely loyal, often naive.
My sister, raised in the same household (although 10 years difference), is afraid to open herself up to loving anyone at all. In fact, she goes out of her way to NOT have contacts and connections with other people.

Me, I think I have a secret t-shirt that says "Please Love Me" printed on it.

Glad that I have been working on asking myself to do that recently! And it seems to be working - I'm pretty content with my life right now. Who knew?

Family-of-origin stuff is hard....

I did not realize that young marriage had such a high failure rate, but it does make sense. But 100 or more years ago, people seemed to marry at such a young age. Guys would sometimes have to marry more than once because of the higher mortality rate women experienced giving birth.

My cousin, who is 1 year older than me, got pregnant when she was 15 and went to Nevada to get married. She is still married to the same guy and is now a Grandma. I have also since heard that 2 other cousins who married young experienced affairs, but their marriages survived.

Donna, there is nothing peculiar with being fiercly loyal, unconditionally loving and naive. It was the norm at one time. Unfortunately, it is rare in this age.

Quote:

One key reason why these marriages dissolve is that a strong concept of self-identity needs to develop in someone before being matched well with someone with whom they can spend the rest of their lives.

I agree with this to a certain point, but I believe it has less to do with calendar age other than as a by-product. The problem is that regardless of actual age, one's mental age is more critical.

Don't forget that in olden days (as when our great grandparents were young) people were quite often getting hitched in their teens, but successful marriages were just as likely. I believe the fact that people were less coddled and had to grow up faster was a key factor -- people matured mentally more quickly, and thus they were more established in their character sooner than today's so-called adults. Plus, there was less of this arrogant sense of entitlement our modern culture promotes.

We have adults today who refuse to mature mentally, but then our culture actually encourages that thinking. (I have a "kid" brother who will turn 40 next year who I think will never really grow up.)

So, I think whenever you have two people secure in their own individuality and have established their adult characters, regardless of their actual ages, you have the foundations for a sustained relationship. It's just as I have told others, you each have to bring a whole person into a marriage, not half of a person, or else it won't work.

(Now why couldn't I follow my own advice when it came to my now xW?!?)

Quote:

Apparently, I have a special, unique capacity to love, beyond reason. If that is a flaw, then I'll take it. It makes me more vulnerable, but I'd rather risk it than not feel deeply at all.

That is not a flaw, Donna. Not at all.

I am meeting my ex tomorrow at the kids' IC, who had also agreed to do our co-parenting training. This is at his request.

I am glad some time has gone by since I was able to express my current state to him; I don't feel the driving need to go back over things, anymore. There are a few small loose ends of things I need him to hear, but that should be a small portion of tomorrow's time. I plan on speaking little and listening a lot.

Any other advice for me?

Why do you "need" him to hear "loose ends"? The R is over, there is nothing to be worked out anymore. Work out the loose ends with your own IC.

This is what I wrote to the IC, for before the meeting:

Quote:

Dear Karen:

I know that Chuck and I are meeting with you tomorrow. I understand that the agenda will be about going forward with co-parenting training. I wanted to give you a little background into where I am, currently, and let you know that I am still working with Sarah. I will actually see her on Monday the 13th.

I am attaching two documents that I wrote, directed to Chuck. The first was never delivered to him (I wrote it with the intent of reading it to him while in a joint session); the second, shorter one, I read to him over the phone.
In having some time and space, I don't want to rehash everything that is in the first document with him during this initial session, if ever. It is enough that I know it. The communication that I had with him over the phone, while brief, was very cathartic. I do want to make the point with him that, while I don't hold hatred for him, I do hate what he did. He has never really come clean with his actions, but instead continues to justify it all, that "it had to happen this way," because of me - at this point, I feel like anything that he doesn't like about his life is now my fault, and I am done being the scapegoat.

On the other hand, he seems to wonder why I can't be friends with him, accepting him and his girlfriend and thinking it is all wonderful. He actually accused me of "illegal parental alienation" because I don't promote a relationship between that woman and my children; that it reflects badly on him! Besides the obvious, I have never held values in line with hers, and I hope to minimize any influence she may have on my kids. She never became a close friend to me because of her lack of intelligence, her negative outlook on life (the perpetual victim), and poor parenting skills, even before the affair.

I do hope that you might be able to translate, bridge the gap, referee, whatever, so that things can go a bit more smoothly between us, for the kids. He seems to be clueless as to what effects this has had on them, and again, blames all bad effects on me and how I must be handling things. He simple skips over the fact that he was the cause of my near-unraveling.

I am actually quite comfortable dealing with him via email. Perhaps if he learned a little empathy and understanding, and stopped throwing his other relationship down mine and the kids' throats, I might be able to tolerate more direct communication. I have given up hope in trying to get through to him in any way - his ego can't let him hear a thing I have to say. (Remind me about the recent time I asked him not to put S14 on the spot when he didn't want to ride with her....and then Chuck did, anyway).

Thank you again for any help you may offer

grr...IC called to confirm the appt and said she can't promise she would read the email before the session.
I don't know if I want to attend if she doesn't read it first.

Maybe I'll bail and leave him to it for the first session...we'll see.

Donna,

I must be honest and say that your email to the kids IC comes off as wanting to use the IC to do some controlling of your X.

And the part where you take the dig at the girlfriend makes you look a little too judgmental.

You need to both work with the IC so as to find coparenting solutions that the IC feels is best practiced by both you and your X. Bringing up the past or how you percieve your X (dont hate him but hate what he did) accomplishes nothing in moving forward in the best interest of the kids.

Thanks for the feedback, Kerry.

I'm not sure about the controlling part. I know that I don't want to listen to any more blame from him, which is one of the reasons I went to email/business only. I also know that any parenting issues that are contested between us, he refuses to hear anything from me, so hopefully she can fill him in on options that are in the kids' best interests. He has told me that he will discount anything that I have to say. I can only hope that he becomes educated - what he does with that is completely up to him.

Judgmental about the gf? He11, yeah. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm being judgmental about her - I don't like her and want her as far from my kids as I can keep her. Her own kids are a mess, and I'd rather protect my kids as much as I can. I am trying very, very hard to handle this whole thing with grace, but it has me at my outer limits.

The last part is because x has a certain impression of me, who I am. That needs to change; I gave up a lot of "power" and standing in his eyes when things went badly - I need to assert that I will not be taken advantage of or lay myself open for him to dump all over anymore in his bid to justify his actions and ease his guilt. The "don't hate him" part is in direct response to him telling me that he was surprised that someone who had become so religious could hold so much hate toward him.

But again, in the end, I plan on speaking very little and listening a lot, especially to the IC.

"I have given up hope in trying to get through to him in any way - his ego can't let him hear a thing I have to say."

No, you haven't, or you wouldn't be trotting out the old stuff for the CO-PARENTING session. This is not about your old-R. This is not about his significant other who WILL be in your children's life for the forseeable future.

If you want him to see a difference, then simply act differently. Don't let him take advantage of you. Stand up for yourself if he starts dumping on you IN THE PRESENT. Trotting out the old stuff is merely more of the same, it will show him the same old stuff, it will be counterproductive.

Respond when it is appropriate at the time -- if he says with the C that you hate him, then clarify it at that point. But quit going back to past stuff.

Right now, your email to the kid's C is all about your agenda about old stuff with X. Drop it. Work on it on your own time with your own C. You will never get what you think you need from X to feel better, you have to find that all by yourself.

Remember, this session is not about yesterday. It is not MC.

Let tomorrow be about the future and about having a better co-parenting R for the kids.

God, maybe I'm just not emotionally mature to deal with this the right way, ever. I don't know what I want. I don't know what to say.

Although it is quieter, this still plays out in my head during every calm moment of my day - when I go to bed, dream, start to wake up...whenever my thoughts wonder.

And I don't want it to, anymore.

And it is hard to live with this failure, my failure. I want to stuff it away somewhere, and I can't, because I still have to deal with him.

I marvel at people who are able to detach, who can DB. Act as if none of it bothers them.
How is it that those seemingly looser connections are the only ones who have a hope of surviving this, of reconciling?

Frustration. Tears again. damn it. I hurt, and I don't even know why anymore.

What is it that I am supposed to do, now? Smile and pretend that everything is great? Yay, my husband left me for another woman! Yay, now she wants to pretend that she is their step-mother!! Whoopie, now there are even more people to love my kids - aren't they lucky?
Should I pack a picnic lunch for all of us to go out with, or maybe plan another family vacation that we can all go on again, just like old times? Who cares that the partners all got switched around, right?
Aren't I lucky that I got to grow so much....I should go in there tomorrow and THANK him for doing this! What bravery he showed to be the first one to act on it! I was just a dolt for not seeing it sooner.

puke. I'm going to bed. unconscious seems to be a safer place.

I just re-read the note I sent the IC. I was giving her background info on where I was, and said that I don't want to go into things with him again during the meeting.

I don't know what all is expected of me at this point. I can give him any info he needs about the kids over email.

I just feel like I did everything wrong.

I chose the wrong man.
I didn't push when I should have.
I didn't continue to grow but let myself get mired and comfortable.
I glossed over things that were important.
I loved the wrong man, and I loved him poorly.
I became only part of a person, dependent on another.
I made substitutions to meet my own needs.
Everything that I thought was so right, almost perfect, was wrong.
My happiness was wrong.

When everything went to hell, I couldn't detach, reacted in every way that every bit of advice told me would doom the marriage.
I lost control, and almost lost my sanity and my life.

I lost my dreams, and those I had for my kids.

And I couldn't fix it. So now I have to live for a forever-wrong. And just make do as best as I can.
Wasn't it enough that I had the forever-wrong childhood, live and learn and move on?

Everything that I feel and think about this, even the thinking about it, itself, is wrong.

I just want to drop the whole thing off the side of a cliff somewhere, turn around and walk away from it all. But how do you do that when it is something that is inside you, something you can't get away from?

Wake me up when it's over....

except, it's never over.

Donna,

This is depression talking. You did better during the school year when you had work and school to ground you. I don't have answers for you, but I don't believe any of that stuff above. You didn't do everything wrong. You are in a bad time now, but honestly you are a very capable person and you have been succeeding very well at taking care of your children and functioning as a single parent. I think the idea of facing him in a counseling session is scaring you. Don't go if it is too much pressure. But stop being so down on yourself. You have come a long way in a short time.

Yes, it will be over. You are having a bad night because you know you will have to deal with X tomorrow. It is normal. You are OK.

Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone gets some things right.

You are doing very well these days, just circling back a bit, but the circle is much smaller. It won't be much of a dent. You'll see.

In the meantime, quit dumping on yourself and fine a truer narrative. You are a strong, loving, intelligent, talented, compassionate woman that was in a marriage that didn't work very well. That is not uncommon. It certainly doesn't make for a "forever wrong."

So, stop the self-indulgent self-berating. Give yourself a big hug and drect some of your compassion and strength toward taking care of the scared freaking-out Donna. Can't you see why she hurts so much? Give her comfort.

I just want to be happy again. I can't begin to tell you how content I was, how blessed I felt.
And now, it seems that I shouldn't have. But I did - it was good for a long time, wasn't it?

There is that saying, If I am dreaming, please don't wake me up!

I miss the life I had. Even with the flaws of all it was, I miss it.

Do I have a good life? Absolutely. But I also have this pain...I didn't have that undercurrent, that constant, for a very long time. I don't know what to do with it.

Well, my face is swollen and hurts a bit, but the other feelings have diminished. There is that undercurrent, though...

The IC wrote back:

Quote:

I did not read the attachments as the intro was overall coverage to where you are at this time. We need to address our goals for joint sessions at the beginning of our meeting. We need to adhere to no more than a 50 minute session and we should attempt to create an atmosphere that will invite two adults to want to continue meeting for the benefit of effectively parenting two beautiful children, therefore, our first meeting may not provide you with the time to address the past. Let us be sure to create mutual goals so that we can attempt to meet both your needs over the next few sessions.

So, I go in with no plan and no expectations, except to answer questions thoughtfully and listen. I honestly have no clue what I am doing.
I guess the note I sent her did seem to focus too much on the past.

Sounds like the IC is more solution based therapy which is great. Hopefully the bitter past does not need to be brought up so as to come up with solutions to a successfull path forward.

Going in with no expectations is great!

So go in with how you know you want communication to flow. What things you want to be notified about, how do you prefer to be notified, etc. I think if you go in thinking this way you might be surprised with how much you agree. You are going to do fine.

kat

Have a great session!

Start with a beginner's mind, and be ready to let go of trying to get some control over X that you would like to have. The more YOU let go, the better he will be toward the children. Sounds odd, but you need to give him space to be the generous, compassionate, empathetic, understanding father that you would like him to be. When he feels he has to play constant defense against you, he is busy trying to prove himself "right." Give him the chance to be a good dad, and he'll very likely start trying to improve things himself. (Basic principle: less old emotional overhead/defensive crap = much more energy to be a better dad)

You'll do well. Let us know how it goes.

P.S.

You wrote: "He has never really come clean with his actions, but instead continues to justify it all, that "it had to happen this way," because of me"

I wonder how often he says it is because of you, and how often YOU ADD that part in your own head. Either way, the truth of the matter is very likely something like:

"It has to happen this way because of HIM."

Clearly, you were willing and able to do things differently. Unfortunately, you can't control whether he was willing or able. And, if you really listen to him, what he is telling you is that he was not willing NOR able to do things differently. That lies within him, not you. But LISTEN to it. BELIEVE him. Consider him to be someone so broken that what he did was the best he could do, as messed up as it was. It is really very very sad that it was the best he could do, that he was so broken that he could not do things differently. Do you see that?

"I just want to be happy again. I can't begin to tell you how content I was, how blessed I felt."

No, you really didn't. When you are in moments in which you have a more objective view of your M, you recognize the pain and emptiness that lurked within it.

Above, you are just swinging back for a quick revisit of the post-bomb starry-eyed fairy tale fictional marriage that pretty much all LBS's create. Post-bomb, the LBS carries the waaaaayyyy over-idealized picture of the M, the WAS carries the waaaaayyyyy over-negativized picture of the M. Eventually, both will move toward a more objective view, but in times of stress, both will swing back out toward their favored fictional view.

oh honey)))))))))))))) big hugs, it's one of those times huh? when the whole thing falls on you like it just happened yesterday? I get you hon, from time to time my mind wants to drag me fully to the past and relieve all that happened, the should'ves could'ves ... remember the allegory of the putting our hands into a jar filled with broken glass? don't revisit the past and expect it to make sense, to be a linear timeline... it isn't... it took me a whole year to realize x lost his way looong ago, before our 6yr old was born, he slowly lost his way for many reasons, our ignorance in keeping a good M was part of it but not the whole reason.

I know you are a woman of faith, and thus you must realize who the main culprit is, the one who was there at the right time to make things as worse as possible, the one who is like a hungry lion looking for someone to devour... You dont' know for sure what would've happened if you would've done the "right" things... whatever that is... of course it is so obvious to you what you "should've" done back then because you are in the present looking back! you had no crystal ball to know the future, you did the best you could've done with the knowledge you had at the time, no one put a gun to his head to find that woman, he opened the door to that, he is an adult who had the choice to say "NO"... but he didn't

No one can blame you for how you handled things back then... today I got a call from my mom... and she hurts for my broken M even more than me because the same things and worse happened to her. My dad went to another city to work back when I was 9 in my country. After a year she got wind that he was cheating on her (perhaps was true) she went wild with grief, she drunk herself to a stupor, had men over the house, just plain lost it, a woman who was very honorable hard working and the best mother around... she couldtn' handle it... and only now do I understand her pain...though I didnt' loose my kids the way she did... after my dad heard that she was drinking and stuff he moved myself and my 2 siblings to live with him... she was left all alone in a huge house, I don't even want to think the pain that brought on her...

I love her and could never blame her for the way things happened, no one can blame you for what happened, the pain we went through tears apart the soul. But you have found your footing, you are just in a bad spot right now, but remember you WILL find peace again. Your life is different, not the ideal you had, but you can again live a new ideal life, one you love with no undercurrent pain. You and me will get the occasional kick in the gut when we hear about their lives with the new women in their lives... but we have the power to live FULL lives the way God intended us to live. They were part of our lives but NOT the culmination of our lives, how many single people full happy lives on their own?

It will take some give and take to co-parent (I'm looking back and remembering my kids crying and upset when gf lived with x) it was hard and sad but things have improved, no more crying (except when gf combs d6 hair) not will work the way we want... if x and I agreed on everything we wouldn't be separated, but we dont' agree and our lifestyles are different, keep that in mind honey, not all will work out smoothly nor the way we think it's supposed to.

Ok, I'll shush now. Feel free to vent vent vent on my inbox at FB, hugs))))))))))))))

Hang in there Donna. This to shall pass...it always does!

So how did it go? Hopefully you were able to make some progress.

kat

It went. I'm not sure what is going to come of this whole thing. Today resulted in me saying that I will notify him right away about medical issues with the kids (I had been emailing him within a day or two, and he'd like it sooner; whatever). He'd like to be able to have both of us go to events for the kids; I said I would if I was assured that his gf would not be there. The IC pointed out that this is where I was, that it must be incredibly difficult for me to be put into those situations, and could he meet those parameters - he said yes.

I brought up how he discounts anything that I have to say if he doesn't like it, in regards to the kids and how they are dealing with things. That S14 will talk about things with me and just isn't interested in doing that with him. One of the goals was to educate us on the effects of divorce on the kids, and make the best of it.

I said that I'd like to have right of first refusal if he wasn't going to be around during his visitation (like this Saturday). He agreed, but after this Saturday. I asked that they be supervised, since I just heard how the oldest girl there sprayed her sleeve with perfume and set it on fire with a lighter to show the younger kids, including mine.

I was happy with the way that the IC kept things on track; she noted when she felt tension and emotion but brought things back. I know that I needed that, and it felt safer.

When I went outside, he hung around long enough to angrily tell me that I should not be demonizing everyone at his house, especially since I wasn't with S14 at the BMX track, where x feels he should be supervised. He yelled, "Weren't you the one who grew up with that kid who killed animals?" (um, he was a product of DIVORCE, idiot! - talk about harping back to the past) - I just said yeah, and look how well I turned out. He left in disgust, and I don't care.

Another appt at the end of the month.

You did great!!!!

As for this: "When I went outside, he hung around long enough to angrily tell me that I should not be demonizing everyone at his house, especially since I wasn't with S14 at the BMX track, where x feels he should be supervised. He yelled, "Weren't you the one who grew up with that kid who killed animals?" "

WHAT A CREEP!!!

This I think is worth bringing up at the next session and/or emailing the C about. It is NOT OK for him to use these sessions as assault-opportunities. What B.S. Thinking about it more, I really think you should definitely email the C. Those sessions are supposed to be safe spaces for the two of you to work together. He needs to be called on that crap and it needs to be agreed that it won't happen again. But let C determine the strategy here...

And, in any case, next time: "This conversation needs to happen with C, save it for next time." Then, walk away. Don't give him the power. Don't engage with him when he pulls this crap. What a tragic figure he cuts, and tragic figures really are not attractive life partners. Yuck.

This has been the pattern of our communication outside of email. Now, there have been many times when I went to the "you should have stayed" thing (and now I am relieved to know where that came from!), but he would turn angry and use it as a lead-in to justify himself at my expense.
I hope my quip took some of the wind out of his sails.

Tragic is a good descriptor. In the same vein as Anakin Skywalker (ok, I'm a geek).

NOT a la Anakin Skywalker -- he is too romantic, noble in his fictional way.

I was thinking more real life tragic -- like Michael Jackson.

You just made me laugh out loud!!! X was extremely homophobic - I think he would have punched wacko right in the head, just for standing there, if he ever came across him.
The more distance I have, the better I feel about the way things are.

I needed to read this today, and remember it.

Quote:

Forgiveness Is Not Relieving the Other Person of Responsibility
Day 298

Forgiving someone does not mean you are letting that person off the hook. The wrongs that have been done to you and to your children need to be righted, but it is not your responsibility to bring that about. God is a just and righteous judge. He is the only one who can judge and condemn a person for an unrepentant heart. This is not your job and should not be your job.

Doug Easterday explains what your responsibility is in forgiveness: "Forgiveness is getting your heart right with God. The people who have wronged you are still responsible before God for what they've done. You're not alleviating them of their responsibility. You're simply transferring it to God where it actually belongs. If you require them to answer to you, you have just the same amount of problems they do."

Harold Graham shares how his pastor once explained forgiveness: "When you forgive, it seems like you're taking that person off the hook. But what you're really doing is taking him or her off your hook and allowing God to put that person on His hook. As long as you have that person on your hook, you block God from that person and you also block God from you."

Your job is to be right with God, and not seek vengeance or retribution, or hold on to blame. You must let go of that person's wrongdoing so you can be right with the Lord.

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven" (Luke 6:37).

Holy God, I'm holding on too tightly to things that are only hurting me. Forgive me for blocking Your work and Your healing in the life of my former spouse and in me. Amen.

X was required to complete the AC in the house as part of the divorce agreement. It was supposed to happen by 11/1/08. He just got it done yesterday, and I had to be out of the house (long story). It is the first time he has been in the house in more than a year.

He called to tell me that he was done, but not done (are we surprised?). He'll be back tomorrow, since he didn't have all of the materials he needed. But even then, it won't be complete. There are things of his parents' stored upstairs, and he doesn't want to move it out of the way to complete the job. His father certainly can't get up there to move the stuff.

Now, the convo had started off pretty well - respectful and business on both parts. When I asked him a little more about the work, and if he would be able to get here in the fall to finish it up, he simply said he feels his "obligation has certainly been met." So much for that - just another reminder of what he is and where his head is at. And I have been so careful to not ask him for ANY favors (I remember us walking through the house, me taking notes on how to take care of things, with him crying, saying it wasn't like he wouldn't ever be back to help - and I said then, what do you think divorce is?)
I'll let him do what he is going to do on Monday, then have my contractor finish the job right. At least it won't cost as much as it could have (that is, if he did it right to begin with). I was riled, but not for too long - a vent to a friend got it out of my system. Anger still feels so much better than sadness, though! And I can let anger go much faster.

He took the flagpole that his parents hoped he would leave. I guess he doesn't care about their requests, either. It didn't bother me either way; just surprised (for a minute). He asked me about copies of the old photos, back when I used to have doubles made up. I just said that I haven't gone through them in years, myself (I was tempted to ask if his gf wanted to make a scrapbook for him - what the hell does he want pictures of something that was "so terrible" he decided to leave? I don't get it, but whatever...) I guess I'll get to that over the summer...although I'm also thinking of asking a high schooler to sort them for me - they need to be sorted, anyway.

I have my IC tomorrow (not the co-parenting therapist, but they are colleagues with clearance to talk freely about our family), so will bring up the end-of-session attack. I have to say, with every encounter, it is easier to shake things off without the previous clutching...the shedding gets easier, feels better. I wouldn't be surprised if I find both of them complete irrelevant in the very near future. What a difference....

Kids are home at 7:30 tonight. I think we'll go out for ice cream

I love this! Gives me a new way to look at things. Thanks for sharing

In a strange/melancholy mood tonight.

My x-BIL and his new wife had their baby today. I will be on LI tomorrow, having been invited by the x-SIL to go camping with my kids, her, her H and son (a scouting thing, something I practically grew up with). I will be close enough that I could stop for a short visit to the hospital. I won't without an invite, though...

I'm not sure if I will be an aunt to this baby. I don't know my place, anymore. I am guessing not. I can send presents, but he probably won't grow to know me. The natural consequences of divorce. My FIL was the one to call me with the baby's name - it was at 4pm, and the baby was born at 8:30am. And it's ok, just an observation.

Yesterday was my S's birthday - 14. He is really growing to be a good person; in a quiet moment today, I asked him if there was anything I could do to make things better for him, something I wasn't doing, for where he is, where our family is. I mentioned how I was seeking forgiveness, and to be able to forgive other's hurts against me, even if I have to re-forgive every day, every time a different thought comes into my head. He said there wasn't anything else I could do for him, that he was ok, and said his father had never asked him that.
This was after the gf's kids, having come over from across the street (where their father had met them for their weekend visitation), were all hanging out at my house. It is bizarre - these little souls, stuck in this mess, and they won't even remember a time when it wasn't like this. They don't ask to come over, they just wander here when they see me or my kids outside. They make small talk - the littlest is going into 1st grade, the other into 2nd. My kids' psuedo-step-sisters. My sister is not convinced that one or both of them isn't fathered by my x. Nothing would surprise me, anymore.

I had been pulling into the driveway when the gf was across the street, dropping her kids off for the visit. I just went inside; her and her x are cordial, talk to each other often, and can be together "for the kids."

I guess it brings me to wonder if...

stupid word, if.

But this is more the "if he ever thinks back on me, on us, and remembers any of the good....if he misses his friend." I sometimes envy those here who have a WAS who comes to them and says they realize now that it was all a mistake, not what they wanted. Those WAS's who are confused and flip-flop.
My X never did. The light-switch got flipped, and he was gone, then only angry. Just like that. He has never waivered. Does that make him more screwed up, or less?

I know....none of it matters. It is all as if from a dream, something that I used to know, long ago. And I wonder how much of it was dream, was real. I know that I chose to be happy in the marriage I was in, in spite of the flaws.

And I choose to be happy, now. But there are still moments of quiet mourning. I will take the moments; it's not my entire life and existence, anymore.

I do wonder about my other friends, the "in-real-life" friends. I think I have a collection of acquaintances. I have one very close friend, but she lives in another state and we can't be together often. My x was my closest of friends, so I didn't develop many other ones. I am working on that, but it is hard. Even here, I wonder how others' perceive me, as I post less and less but don't seem to be missed much (that is NOT a convert ploy to have people post! I just wonder what it is about me...too serious? too boring? too something.......) I think I remember reading once that ACOA people have a poor idea of how others perceive them. I don't rush out to try to become someone I'm not, or do things for others to validate me - I am just trying to be who I am, my authentic self. Maybe I am just wondering where that will take me...
working on becoming the best ME I can be, the best version of my authentic self.

***

On another note, X did the work on the AC in the house last weekend. It isn't finished, and he nearly killed the tech who came to get the unit charged and running (wiring mistake and the guy got electrocuted). So, I called in an electrician and will just pay to get the work complete.
The contractor guy who has been doing work on the house came back from vaca, except he had bought the materials for the deck that I had scapped the idea of, since the money is quickly drying up. A new major leak in the basement required him to redo the front porch he had worked on for me. Then, I needed him to tear out the mess of a bathroom downstairs that X had started and left a mess, instead - so, that is straightened out, and the bathroom is gutted. I even found a new sink that I can re-use (I have NO idea where it came from or how long it was in the basement!) New windows are on order for the basement, and the in-ground pool will be demo'd by the end of next week. With those major projects done, I will feel like my investment (the house) is up-to-date with maintenance.

I'm just so fortunate that I have some time to address all of these things before work and school is pressing down on me again.

It would be good to share this with your C and the kids' C: "Yesterday was my S's birthday - 14. He is really growing to be a good person; in a quiet moment today, I asked him if there was anything I could do to make things better for him, something I wasn't doing, for where he is, where our family is. I mentioned how I was seeking forgiveness, and to be able to forgive other's hurts against me, even if I have to re-forgive every day, every time a different thought comes into my head. He said there wasn't anything else I could do for him, that he was ok, and said his father had never asked him that."

What a relief it will be to have all of that work completed! Great job :-)

I'm not sure where it would go, OT, but plan on it. I have learned that the kids and I just have to deal with the way things are -
I don't bring things up or "test the waters" on a regular basis with the kids, anymore. They know that I am there if they want to talk.

I had a great weekend. D10 and I went to the campout and got to see lots of people I've missed. Some were my xBIL's closest friends who I watched grow up, and they are all having babies of their own, now (made me feel a little old!). We all used to hang out together at least a few times a year; x's family was just like that - siblings and friends. Anyway, I got to see their kids, but not BIL or his new baby. MIL asked me if I was going to go to the hospital, and I told her that they had my number and new I was in the area if they wanted to see me (she had a c-section and really discouraged any visitors, anyway).

We stayed over, then went to visit my closest friend who also lives down there. We got up early and went to the ocean beach, then ate out for lunch, mini-golf, ices, etc., before heading home.

Work continues on the house. I keep writing checks to fix messes that x left, do work that I'm not up to (electrical, etc.) That is what alimony is for, right?

donna, haven't been around for a while but just stopped by and read your newest. just had to say I am very impressed with how well you are doing!

Sally / Morgan!! SO good to hear from you - I really hope that things are going as well for you as they had been last we spoke. I was always pulling for you...

"I'm not sure where it would go, OT, but plan on it."

Good, I'm really interested in what they have to say. I see both positives and negatives.

On the one hand, it is great that you are offering DS support and showing your forgiveness. On the other hand, you put some pretty heavy stuff on DS on his birthday, perhaps made him feel as if HE should struggle more with forgiveness because there are SO MANY things EVERY day that you have to forgive. Also, I fear you may have showed that you were pleased when DS said XH "never asked him that." I dunno how to better explain it. All I can tell you is that if I were your son, after that convo I would have felt that I "should" have big problems with Dad for his past actions and that I "should" feel neglected by him, otherwise I'd be letting you down. THEN AGAIN, certainly offering support is a great thing, and it does no good to deny that DS might be struggling with forgiveness himself, so being open about it might have been just what he needed. So, again, I really see pros/cons to the interaction and would be very interested in what C and kid's C have to say.

BTW, what did C say about XH's attack post-kid's-C session?

Glad you had a great weekend!!!!

I've actually held up the kids' ability to forgive as an example I am trying to follow - I've said that it is good that they have a positive relationship with their dad, and that I was hoping to continue growing and be able to "get along" better through forgiveness. It was actually a form of apology, since I reacted negatively recently upon seeing the gf with the kids and x during a drop-off - I said I am trying hard to stop that, that it is time to forgive and let it go, get past it. I didn't give him any response to his saying that his dad never asked him how he felt (my feeling is, that is a shame; not sure if my body language sent that idea).
I think the whole thing came up when he mentioned the weirdness of the gf's kids coming over to our house.

IC today said that it is good to check in with the kids every now and then; that I would probably be doing this, anyway, opening a door that the kids might then jump on. But to let them know that I am open, considering how they are feeling, etc. It doesn't have to focus on the divorce - just life in general.
And S and I have had those kinds of discussions, too (about school pressure, friends, girls). I just try to find a quiet time, one that he isn't just sitting across from me "in the hot seat," where I can ask a simple lead-in question and see if he has anything to say. If he doesn't, I tell him ok and that I am there for him whenever he'd like to talk about anything.

About the x's statements after the last session, she just said to make sure to address it with the next meeting, right at the beginning. That the anger and baiting is not surprising, since he was always most comfortable with me acting out / defending / being upset, etc. He didn't get that response this time.

Yeah, it's gonna be all about the particulars of the context of the convo...

"About the x's statements after the last session, she just said to make sure to address it with the next meeting, right at the beginning. That the anger and baiting is not surprising, since he was always most comfortable with me acting out / defending / being upset, etc. He didn't get that response this time."

A line of a movie struck me last night...something about how everything is now different and there is no going back, so better get to know the stranger who she now found herself to be.

I kind of feel like that.

Everything, or nearly so, that I thought I knew, was wrong. So much around me, and within me, has changed over the last 2 years, and I'll never be the same. Part of it is an innocence, part of it is a blind denial in order to be happy. Not sure what the worth was in that, anymore. But man, did I try to hold on to it, with every bit of strength and will and prayer and pleading and personal contortion that I could muster.

And now, I'm just left with me.

I remember being so alone as a kid...waiting and hoping that some day I wouldn't be, then finally accepting / that it was the only way I would end up.
No one was more surprised than me, when I wasn't alone, anymore.

But in reality, I don't think I ever stopped being alone; I just found a way, my own way, to pretend. And so did he. It feels like so much of it was all smoke and mirrors now to look at it.

I think that maybe I am just lonely.

My kids aren't home. And it's not the same connection with them, anyway - it can't be. But I can hear the life I used to have, over the phone, when I call to talk to them. The simple home sounds of getting ready for dinner.
And I miss that life.

But is it just the comfort, the familiar?

I don't know. I don't know much of anything now a days. Back to the untethered balloon feeling. So, I guess I'll just keep going with the motions; there is always more that needs to be done, that I want to get done, that can fit into one day, anyway.
Well, the sensation and situation hasn't changed, even though the depression has lifted. I must be getting used to it. Life as it is, rather than as I would have it be.

Sleep often comes at just the right time...

Hey donna, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I also sometimes feel like the stranger I've become. What I used to think was heartfelt emotion now seems like self-deceiving justifications. My D taught me that I'm a bad judge of others' intentions and it's since been hard to get past the sense that life is about to throw out another 180.

Like you, I hope I'm just lonely, but so many times I feel like my GAL and PMA is just going through the motions. I've lost the happiness I used to be able to experience. Time with friends is fun but I feel an innocent joy is no longer there.

I could counsel you with stuff you've already heard - i know because I've heard it too. But I really just wanted to say I hear you.

take care - lodo

Quote:

Like you, I hope I'm just lonely, but so many times I feel like my GAL and PMA is just going through the motions. I've lost the happiness I used to be able to experience. Time with friends is fun but I feel an innocent joy is no longer there.

Exactly! Well put.

lodo, you added to my thoughts. Seems we are in similar places.

MIL came over and said I should up the dosage on my "happy pills" again. Sometimes her judgments are such a PITA.

It didn't help that my toilet overflowed around midnight last night...

I overslept today, then sat around watching mindless tv. I need a shower. Blech. I know that hibernating is not good (see my tag line). D10 called to ask if they could stay with x a little later since they just got back from the waterfalls hike they took today.

Man, that sounds really down. I guess I am today; have to move more tomorrow and snap out of it.

Things are better in my head. I do have the co-parenting session this afternoon with x, but I have no expectations at all about it, anymore. And even some of the past ideas that I had, about telling him what he did and where I was, etc. - there's no point to it, and I don't feel compelled to share that, anymore.

I get the DivorceCare emails, and they are up up reconcilliation, as in, forgive, live and let live, not holding resentment and anger, etc. The pendulum swings on all of that, but gets me a little closer to that being my reality each time, just a little further along.

****

Well, the day flew. D10 surprised me with setting up materials in the new studio, and we sketched together.

I went to the meeting today - not much eye contact, but some, and no xanax or anxiety before I got there (or during it). I started off with how I had felt attacked at the end of last session and how it was just an illustration of how I had been treated these last 2 years (all his justifications, etc.). The C kept things in the present, kept both sides to the point, showed how to use "I" statements. These are all things that I know, but it is so good having someone referee, make sure that he learns to speak respectfully, etc. Even reminds me what is my work and what is is to keep the focus between us on the kids.

Next appt is 9/1. I might write more about the session later, but I am glad it is done.

All sounds good. So how did the session go?

I'll get back to the session, but I want to document what happened today.

D10 had a sleepover at a friend's house today, and the gf's daughter was also invited. Knowing the dropoff time, I planned to be fashionably late to avoid any drama, etc. Well, she must have had the same idea, and was still there when I showed up.

First time I was that close to her (within smacking distance, I thought to myself), and felt - nothing. No shaking, no stomach knots, no anxiety, no hatred.....nothing. I avoiding having to say anything to her by focusing on the kids, and she left.

The other mom came over and gave me a great big hug, apologized for not realizing the uncomfortable situation I was in. I said no, no big deal, I'm fine. And I meant it. She said that the gf saw me and started to visibly shake.

I can't tell you how lightened I feel! I got into the car with a smile on my face from ear to ear. I think I sighed the rest of the day, like a huge weight has come off!

I think that the momentum is snowballing...I was stalled for a long time, having gone through a deep depression. I was very sick there for a while.
Now, I feel confident that I have made it through, gotten well. The co-parenting counselor actually said out loud, after speaking with my IC and evaluating me during our sessions, that I am no longer clinically depressed. And I feel that, too.

Great update

AWESOME!!! What a wonderful feeling that must have been Donna. Now.....continue that feeling into everything else in your life!

Checkin' in on ya', Donna.

Wow Donna - just read this. And I could FEEL it. I don't know if I could do it. Was withing breathing distance of maggot at a Funeral Home (and she was really trying to get in my face). I held my head up but came home and sobbed. It is just SO emotional.

So, hats off to you from one who's been in those shoes. That is a biggie and you've turned a corner. ONWARD!

Barb

Thanks, all

Been busy, in a good way. S14 is at camp this week, so lots of time with D10. Had a few adventures, a spa night sleepover, shopping, painting together...then spent an overnight with S at his camp.

D stayed with her dad (his evening with her, then just stayed over). He goes to work at 5:30 am, so I rushed home to get her asap while letting her have time to sleep in a little. X fell all over himself to thank me for letting her stay over (it's not about you, idiot). It was good to hang out with S, that he asked me to visit and wanted me there. I actually got a lot of planning done for the new school year when he had to go to merit badge workshops, to boot. And I had some time to connect with the other parents of the scouts - I miss that a little, especially with D not taking girl scouts last year. It was all very comfortable, and I was careful not to talk about x or the sitch in more than any of the most general terms.

Went to my IC today. We talked about how I am being reflective on what was in my past marriage, and what wasn't, and how I am re-defining what is acceptable and workable for me as I go forward, and maybe have new intimate relationships. How I was pretty stifled and too accommodating in my marriage - I want someone who is as open to communicating as I am (there were lots of warning signs that this wasn't happening with x). Honesty, respect and loyalty will need to be paramount, as well. I will question and speak up much more if I find things uncomfortable (I hope!!) instead of justifying and excusing. It came up that men can't really be close friends with unrelated women without other feelings and temptations coming up - what do you guys think? After all that has happened, I am tending to agree with this.

I also brought in the picture of myself from when I was little (about 5), a homework assignment. IC just said how loveable I was, how deserving...how did I feel, as an adult, looking at that little girl and what she had to deal with? Wow...
I was a happy little girl, but wasn't taken care of or paid much attention to. Set me up to always trying with everything I had to please, "be good." Lots of connections between how I was raised and everything that happened with the marriage.

New homework is to find more pics, from maybe age 10 and 15, and write about how I feel about "those kids" from a distanced, adult point of view.
I have some old photo albums...I think I might be making a collage in the next week with some of them, adding the reflections.

Speaking of art, I also started a family portrait of the kids and I in acrylics on canvas, and my botanical illustrations for my friend's book just got mailed to the publisher!

Tomorrow is my women's spirituality group meeting, which I'm looking forward to. I want to work on my friendship skills....seems that I have a lot of acquaintances and am generally well-liked, but not approached to go out one-on-one or become closer friends.

I'm lonely.

I don't think he ever did, or will, understand what he meant to me, once.

Or maybe he did, and still chose to leave.

I'm trying really hard not to look back. But that leaves me stuck with the present. And I am lonely.

Man, my mood swings all over the place. I'm not in a good way right now, even though I know that will likely change. Just feeling like crap.

Still lonely. Realizing (again?) that I may have lots of acquaintances, but few if any real friends. Right now, MIL is one, and probably shouldn't be. I am starting to feel guilty and in the way of her relationships with her kids, and am contemplating telling them so...scary, because then I would be even more alone. But I don't want to be selfish, either.
Most of my social structure was centered around my marriage. My x was my best friend - that's completely gone. My friends were mostly couple-friends. And remember that the gf was one of them. Most, if not all, of that is gone. I've been back and forth about "bff" down the street, part of another couple we had all hung around with and went on vacation with. Seems that me, on my own, might not be so interesting or able to fit into their lives. Last time we really talked, she called me to complain and be indignant that x had completely ignored her, drove right by without so much as a wave - did I know why? Um, no....I think their friendship might have been more of the connection - I was the "extra-credit." It fed her ego (x was/is charming, handsome, funny, etc.)
The rest of my social circle centered around his large family. After 20+ years together, I had considered them my sibs, too. That has all gone with the wind for the most part.
My sister came back into my life, but I think it was for a short term. I'm pretty sure she just doesn't like me very much.
Splitting the week between two schools, I am never in one building to really cement any lasting, close friendships with the other teachers and staff I work with. I have people I eat lunch with, talk to, etc., but nothing outside of school.
Reminds me of jr and sr high school. I was never invited to parties or to hang out, really. I had one or two close friends each year, then met Chuck. I guess it is something to work on with IC. But it seems to be so much harder now - everyone is married, or has their own lives already set up and are busy. Not sure how to "make friends." Just seems like more and more periphery people when I do get out and GAL.
The closest friend I have lives a state away and we don't get to be together too often.

I miss being married, having someone to talk about the day-to-day things with. Little stuff like making dinner together, bouncing ideas off of, talking about the news.

The thought of starting all over again with a romantic relationship is exhausting. I am about to go back to work full-time, continue my grad work, raise two kids and take care of a house. I have never been good at time management and can barely hold those things together on my own, while I try to squeeze in any art making, church, other outside interests (which just aren't doing it for me so much anymore). There is no time and I have no energy.

The first 16 years of my life, I spent trying to please my mother and be loveable to her - she was an alcoholic and did the best she could, but it wasn't very much. We didn't play together, there were no playdates with other kids. I made do, became resourceful, but I was lonely. I started crushing on boys at about 10, and right before I met Chuck I had decided that this was it - I was destined to be alone and should just accept it. My personality (the nice, plain girl who was a great starter-friend) and my looks just didn't add up to anyone ever being interested. And, other than Chuck, there hasn't been any romantic interest in me, my whole life.

Seems like I am right back to that place; but now it's worse, because I was loved for such a long time, that I was finally convinced that I was loveable - only to be rejected and betrayed in the deepest and most complete way.

I guess I should be grateful for the years I did have where I was really happy and knew joy - not everyone can say that.

I feel like sending this out to everyone I have ever known, just to ask them what is wrong with me.

I want to reach out to my x, ask him how he could do this, how he could have no second thoughts or regrets, how he could not care and left me for dead when I was suicidal.
But my hand has been burned too many times by reaching into that fire. So I won't.

I know I sound so pathetic, someone no body would want to be with. This isn't the way it's supposed to be. And I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Donna, It is hard all the way around. I agree. But put Chuck away, he isn't worth the pain and thoughts. I always want to understand why and have come to realize and accept that I may never know. Perhaps neither will you.

You do have acquaintances and so that is a good place to start. Ask one to a movie one night or to grab dinner. Yes other people may be couples but they need some "me" time too. I really do understand, I am basically shy and it takes a lot to reach out.

I do get lonely too but I am starting to get comfortable in my own skin. Go to the movies by yourself. I will wait until just a few minutes before the movie starts and then go in. Go walking, jogging, just think of where you want to be in your life.

I enjoyed being married too. I think of this lady I saw about a month ago. I had helped her when I worked at the bank about 11 years ago. She came in crying, her H was having an affair and wanted a divorce. She didn't have a clue. My heart really went out to her and I tried to comfort her the best I could. Fast forward to a month ago.

I see her and know that I know her. It takes me a minute to place her and she recognizes me. I can tell her her former name and even her ex's name. She said yes but I got remarried. It took me a few years but I forgave him, forgave her and love came into my life. I hadn't even known that this guy liked me, he was someone I worked with. He threw me a surprise birthday party and that was my first hint that he had feelings for me. We were married less that a year later. I never knew a marriage could be like this she said. I believe someday I will say that too.

Maybe we didn't have the best examples of what it could be like so we just muddled along. Now we know sooo much more. I believe we will be able to have a much better marriage next time because we know it takes work, we know there are good times and bad and really we just aren't naive anymore.

Hang in there Donna, better times are ahead.

hugs, kat

Donna,

I have felt much of what you have expressed, almost all of it. It's very understandable and to be expected, I guess. And that's why we're all here, to share these moments and help each other get through this.

So many things you've said, I know exactly what you mean. My x was my best friend too, the best friend I had ever met. When we started dating I was very sexually drawn to her, but at the same time I was fearful of losing a good friend if things didn't turn out well in a more romantic R. I let her know I really, really did not want to lose that, our friendship. Ever. Fortunately, we stayed happily together into M, as friends even, for several years -- I still ask myself exactly where and at what point did we stop being friends with each other.

And I really did enjoy being married to xW, for at least most of our M if not all of it.

I also understand the loneliness. I am certain all of us here do. Most of my life I have been a person who can appreciate and make use of solitude. But it pains me to realize every other week when I do not have my two S's here in custody, to keep me occupied, that I realize just how pathetically alone I am sometimes. It really gets to me just when I think I'm immune. I have the Lord God, right? As such no one of faith is ever really alone, right? And yet there it is.

I too often find myself wanting to ask my x the burning question of "Why?" Every once in a while I recall in my mind's eye an image of my xW's previous character. I note the absolute stark contract between the two personalities and am again aghast at what has happened. Thus comes this same refrain, "Why? How?"

But there is the other sort of loneliness to which you allude as well. And that too is very, very difficult to deal with. For me that is, in some ways, more difficult -- and in other ways, less difficult, paradoxically -- than the "simpler" sort of loneliness. If you know what I mean.

Let's just say I try to keep myself pretty busy, so much so that I don't really have too much time to think about any form of loneliness.

But hang in there, lady. As big a pessimist as I find myself being, I still have faith that things will get better eventually. For all of us.

"I want to reach out to my x, ask him how he could do this, how he could have no second thoughts or regrets, how he could not care and left me for dead when I was suicidal."

1. Oh, come on. Of course he had second thoughts, he even went to MC with you. No doubt he even now has regrets about how he handled things.

2. He did not leave you for dead. You are not dead. Nor was he in a position to help you. Rather, he was the poison that was hurting you. HE COULD NOT be the one to rescue you, so let go of blaming him for not being that person. It is a tired refrain you play when you want to slip into your sulky comfort zone. And you damn well know what I mean.

3. Glad to see from other posts that you snapped back quickly. Wahooooo!!!!

Well, at least I am settling into a predictable pattern - loneliness sets in more readily when the kids are away. I guess I have to start really setting up some outside things to do that start early in the day so I get up and out before I start to wallow.

X has taken a back-seat to my thoughts, as has also become more usual. There, but not there - not like it used to be. It becomes more and more abstract.

The friend down the street stopped me today as I was driving by. We talked about her vacation, some other things. Then she brought up how x had called her about a month ago, inviting her and her family to his and gf's house. She finally said no, she just wasn't comfortable with the whole thing, all that had happened (with the lies to her included), how she had watched me go through hell and could never accept his R with that woman. He said she had to separate me from him, that we were no longer a couple. He gave her an ultimatum - accept it as he is with all he comes with, or be done. She said ok, bye.

I'm still not sure if our friendship has cooled because of all that has happened, if she was more connected to him than me, if work and kid schedules have changed, or if it is just the cycle of things. But the kids and I have been invited to her S's party on Saturday, and she asked me to come to the family time. So we'll go.

btw, I did write a note to MIL and FIL over the past weekend / lonely time:

Quote:

I am sorry that I snapped at you today. It is just sometimes, when you ask What is it this time, or what is wrong now...
well, you know what is wrong. And it makes me feel guilty for having weak moments, for being sad. Yesterday was hard. There will be days like that. I tried to tell you, but you seem exasperated that I can't shut up about it, put on the happy face and move on with my life. I am sorry if my openness makes you uncomfortable sometimes. At least I have become able to compartmentalize it and not let it affect the children (I dearly hope).

I wanted to talk to you and Dad about something.

I have been feeling guilty, too, for being in the way of your relationship with your own children. You and Dad may say that it isn't the case, but I think it is. Even without anyone saying anything or talking about it, I think the sibs are very hurt, like you have "taken sides" against one of their own. Mary talks about not leaving anyone behind. And how hurt she was when people at church seemed surprised that she was your daughter, not me.
And the rift between you and Chuck...

I think it is part of my looking at my own relationship with my mom. How, no matter how hard I tried, how "good" I was, she just couldn't really connect with me. It left me always trying to bend and please others and feeling that I wasn't worth anything in the end.
I think Chuck felt something like that way, too. Have I told you the story of the storm windows at your house? It was no where near the same extent, but I think criticisms of him tore him up inside, made him a very insecure person.

I guess what I am saying is, it is too late for me to repair any kind of relationship with my own parents, my own mom. And the repurcutions will echo through my whole life for that. It is one of the main reasons I am still struggling.

Please, try to reconcile with your son. I love him, and I know how much it must hurt him to be apart from you. He needs that unconditional love we talked about in the women's group. Maybe someday, with you being able to finally open up communication with him, he will learn to communicate, too. Maybe he needs your example to learn what unconditional love is.
In the end, I just want him to be happy, and you, too.
Forgiveness does not mean condoning.

You are probably the best, closest friend I have right now. And although it is a scary thought, I would understand if you decided that you needed some distance from me in order to heal the rest of the family. I don't want to be selfish or be the issue that stands in the way of that.

Words cannot express the gratitude and love I have for you and Dad. I can only hope that you all start talking together and work it all out.

The recent emails I get from DivorceCare have been about forgiveness and reconcilliation, even if a marriage is not restored. I don't want to hurt forever, be an angry and bitter woman. I am working on myself every day. I copied one here; it might make interesting reading if you go to the home page, where you could see any one of the 365 readings, each sent daily.

Just a quick update:

The swimming pool / toxic dump has been cleaned and filled! I am hooking up to the town sewers within the month, and the landscaping will be done all at once with that. HUGE thing!

The basement has been reclaimed - everything wiped down, rugs washed, windows replaced with WORKING, clean vinyl with screens! No more rusted-shut single-pane

I think I have finally run the last mouse out of the house. New totes for the kids to store their pared-down toys in.

The sunroom studio is GLORIOUS!!! I just got the treadmill moved into it today. My D is giving up the iron daybed I love (and that she never really liked) to serve as the couch in there, and I've gotten some other chairs through freecycle. She will finally get a new bed. Also picked up a beautiful glass aquarium coffee table that we put a few comets in - I had designed one years back when X used to work in autoglass (he was going to make me one and it never happened). Bought a new cage for the bunny, who moved there, too. D and I have been sketching in there, reading, playing with the animals. I can look out onto what used to be the pool dump and imagine the flowers and ponds that will be there next spring.

The microwave was replaced today; again, thanks to freecycle. I haven't had a working one all summer, and it will be used a lot when school gets back in session.

The house is coming together, and it feels great!!! I even went and got a new vacuum (the old one started spraying dirt, dog hair and broken glass OUT the last time I tried!), and the contractor trimmed the hedges today because he was bored!

Hopefully a big tag sale will help clear most of the other clutter that is making me a bit bananas, and we will be in good shape for the start of the new school year! I look forward to this renewal like I look forward to Spring each year...

that's awesome! it makes such a difference to make the place your very own

Wow, what amazing progress on the house! Incredible :-)

S14 starts ROTC orientation tomorrow!!! In HIGH SCHOOL!!! Ack! I am so proud of him, though - he is a very good kid.

We are finally hitting the 90 degrees here - and normally I wouldn't complain, given how cool this summer was - but the AC is broken AGAIN! You know, the one that x had to install as part of the D agreement.
The same tech who was electrocuted the last time the damn thing broke down came out. It had sprung a leak and flooded the new office (which of course had paperwork all over, which is now a sopping mess).
The tech couldn't do anything today to fix it or turn it back on - I have to talk to the manager tomorrow, because of all the shortcuts that X took when he put the thing in. I have no idea how much its going to cost. Blech.

Well, at least the kids and I did well decluttering this weekend - had a tag sale with disappointing profit, but the stuff is out!

It is Monday, right?

You have been a busy busy girl!

I did JROTC in high school too. It was probably one of the best things I ever did - my instructor was the best role model I ever could have asked for!

I hope it works out that way for him, too. Scouts is good, but his father is a co-leader.
This ROTC is for the Navy - by the end of high school, they will give him the opportunity to get his driver's, boating, and pilot's license. They are going to have a 5 day "bootcamp" at West Point in Sept.
And he got his hair cut on Fri - what a difference! - but he is a handsome kid, either way

Blech, messed up.

X called and asked to talk to me. He wants to take the kids for the weekend early, since he couldn't afford to take them on a week vacation. He wants to bring them to an amusement park. He asked to get them on Thursday rather than Fri; I said I'd think about it - wasn't Fri morning ok? (My S doesn't have a room there; he sleeps on the couch rather than having his father build a room in the basement next to the 16 year old daughter of gf). He said it would be easier for him if he could get them earlier - I said I'd let him know.

When he called about an hour later to talk to the kids and tell them. I heard D saying, oh, we'll stay over with you on Thursday?

Now, where I messed up - my knee-jerk reaction. Trying to manage my X's relationship with my kids.
I turned to S and said that his dad was going to take them to the amusement park, but I wasn't sure if it was Thurs or Fri, yet. That if his dad asked, but he wanted to sleep in his own bed, it was ok with me and they could go Fri - that it was completely up to him, I had plans either way.

D tells her dad later in the convo that I just told her brother about the plans.

Now, X is pissed. He talks to S for a minute, demands to talk to me. All sad-sounding, did I really just do that, ruin the only surprise he could afford, etc.

What was I going to say? I think I said sorry but didn't explain myself. S had already told him to talk nicely with me, not be negative (protecting me, sh*t). I gave the phone back to S, who said That didn't sound very positive to me, then said Change the subject - he didn't want to listen to his father complain about me.

I almost emailed X to explain....

but came here. Not really worth it. I am sure it will come up in the co-parenting C on 9/1, and I'll try to say something, then. Maybe.

S was talking to me this week about how X is making sure to say that "gf did ___ for you," talk her up, etc. He was really resentful that his dad took a lot of time out of his birthday baseball game to talk about the sitch, promote their relationship, etc. I just said that he and his dad would have to work it out, he could also talk with the IC., and that his dad really loved him and cared a lot about him.

Yuck.

It sounds to me as if you didn't really know it was a surprise, so give yourself a break.

As for the initial request, how about: "Thursday is fine with me unless one of the kid's prefers Friday." Enuf said.

Quit worrying about where DS sleeps. We used to sleep on the floor, ya know?

Hellooooooo Echooooooo Echoooooo....

She's out GALing!!!

No news is good news

I have good plans for the weekend. Just got an invite to dinner with a friend from the women's group (yay! we had hung out before, but I wasn't sure if we had enough...whatever it is...to become good friends - looks like a possibility, now). Tomorrow, my SIL is coming up, and we have appointments for a massage/mani/pedi after a brunch party.
I think that I am going to focus on building some closer girl-friends (think Sex and the City) before I begin to think of anything romantic.
It's part of the whole GAL thing....I need to push myself to get out there. So many of my interests are isolating in themselves - artwork, reading...I'm thinking I have to find something that gets me out of the house more. It will have to be a focus for the new year, though, as I have to finish these master's classes.

Sunday will be church, and the kids will be home by the evening.

I'm spending today with bursts of cleaning/organizing and HGTV breaks with ice tea.

No isolation this weekend!

And it looks like the kids even got nice weather for their trip to the amusement park with their dad and the pack. Glad they should have a good time.

Good to see you rebounded from how you felt the other day.

Isn't it nice when it takes less and less time?

You can keep reading! Join a bookclub. I have been in mine for almost two years now. I am reading stuff that I may have never picked myself. Sometimes that is good, sometimes bad. We have also watched a couple films after we have discussed the books of the same name. Just one evening a month.

kat

Want some homework?

Consider how productive and forward moving you are now. Compare that to your life in your marriage. Beginning to see that life in your old M was flattening you more than you knew?

Came back from the outing I had today (waxed my legs - I would NOT recommend doing this) to find...

the sliding glass door to the sunroom was open a little (how?!)

the new bunny cage had the bottom pulled down

two dogs very happy to see us

and no bunny.

I searched the whole yard, searched the house - no bunny, no blood, no tuffs of fur. Just some scratch marks on my rug, like the dogs were digging at something.

My SIL feels so badly...last time her dog visited, he broke into the gerbil tank and killed 2 of 3 gerbils. She left me $50 to get a new bunny.

I can only hope that the poor thing got away past the dogs into the yard and through the fence. Or found someplace to hide in the house.

But I'm not holding out too much hope.

Poor Poof.

oh no! let's hope he got away safely !

Quote:

Consider how productive and forward moving you are now. Compare that to your life in your marriage. Beginning to see that life in your old M was flattening you more than you knew?

I don't know about that. It's just...different.

While I was married:

I had two wonderful kids and was blessed to be able to stay home with them for at least their first year.
While I was pregnant with my daughter, I completed a 20-week institute on parent leadership/civics, then went on to join AmeriCorps. My then-husband was super-supportive, going to each class with me after the baby was born so he could bring her into me when she needed to nurse, ensuring I could finish the class.
I never felt pressured to work.

I went on to be hired in my career, which I love (teaching art).

I got involved in Girl Scouts at the local and county level.

I was a straight-A student pursuing my master's.

I felt like I had good friends, with good families. That my life was full of supportive and loving people.

I was able to be there for my sister while she graduated high school, then collage, and then as she married.

I was able to be there for my mom at the end of her life.

And I felt like I was in a solid, loving marriage to my best friend.

Now, I can look back and see that things weren't perfect, but flattening...? No, I felt supported, for the most part. I was happy, and comfortable, and felt loved.

I had a good life.

Don't get me wrong- I am making a good life, again. Just very different. I lost so much;and have been working hard on rebuilding things, looking at stuff that hadn't been dealt with. I'm not convinced that it is better. Not yet. Maybe that will come in time. But, maybe our unique coping mechanisms meshed very well, for the time that they did.

Now, I am much more reflective. I have turned attention to my spirituality. I have had to build all new relationships - family, friends. I am in complete control of my financial and household matters, along with the responsibilities and stresses that it encompasses. I can see different opportunities that weren't available to me before.

But I have paid a big price. And so have my kids.

There were compromises in my marriage. But I think there always need to be compromises when two people come together to share a life.

Things change.

I am struggling to get back to a fraction of my productivity and engagement in life. I feel like I have had to start all over again. None of the "bonuses" have been worth all of this - just making due with second-best.

Now, instead of building my life and foundation on the love of my life, I will have to build it on myself. Seems lonelier, if safer. My innocence is gone; my ability to trust will never be the same - I know what people are capable of, now. I will never regret loving him as much as I did. And even as I might realize that he is not good for me (as he has now chosen to be), I still love him. Yep, I know full well that I love people who don't necessarily deserve it. If this is a flaw or a weakness or whatever, I'd rather be like this than another way.

Simply put - when was my life better, 1999 or 2009?

1999. Definitely. But we can't go back. So, I'll try to learn, try to keep growing and becoming a better person, and move forward.

Do we really have any other choice?

Donna,
I am dealing with the same realizations. As I read somewhere, the choice is actually between being, staying and feeling a victim or becoming a survivor. Actually, the way I see it there is only one choice:surviving.
Stay strong,
K

Oh no! Any side of the long-eared one?

Yeah, I hope the poor little bunny didn't end up as dinner.

Wow!

I hope the bunny got away. Nice of her to give you $$ though.

I also feel the same way about my M. But STBXH as he is now is not a person I would ever have dated or married - the alcoholism alone would send me running lol.

And I choose to survive, and thrive. Because what else can I do? And you gotta make it fun, cuz otherwise, what's the point?

Still no sign of the bun...which may be a good thing (no carcass-toy brought over by the dogs to play with). I am going to set out a hav-a-hart trap, but can't think of what to even bait it with - I mean, there is an acre of nice yummy grass all around, why is she going to crawl into the cage?

On an up note, we went today, and the kids adopted another bunny. And a sister bunny. Yep, two; one for each. The dog is going ape-sh!t at the sliders, but they are LOCKED now, so hopefully she'll settle down, too.

Both of the kids start school tomorrow- I can't believe it! S14 is already giving me crap about school work, though - he did his summer reading, but was supposed to take notes (reader responses). And he didn't. And says that he can write about whatever they ask while he's at school off the top of his head.
I've got to let go of it - he struggled with schoolwork last year, had a barely-acceptable report card because he didn't do homework or study much, and just gave excuses, etc. He begged me (too late) to help him, then. It was really too late. Now, he wants me to back off and let him try it out on his own again, says he knows what he did wrong and it will be different. I said, how is not bringing the notes anything different? Looks like the same-old stuff to me...
Gave him the final deal - if his interim report comes back with any crap, he is grounded until he shows me the grades. I need to firm-up these expectations - no divorce excuse anymore.

Ugh! He is turned into such a snot at times - always "right," I always MUST be wrong, talking back and being fresh....anything that has to do with control issues over him (chores, school work, etc.). I keep reminding him that I am the parent, and he has to do what I say, even if he doesn't like it. Explaining my reasoning is a courtesy, and if he keeps pushing, he is going to start hearing "Because I said so, and I'm the Mom!" And other times, he is just great, a sweet, caring kid.....makes me bananas.

I know--their job to push, my job to pull. But what a PITA.

So, they will be ready, at any rate. Clothes laid out, breakfast table set, alarms on, bags packed. And I have the rest of the week with them at school and me getting things done before my school starts next week.

****

Interesting thought about if X is anyone who I would want to date or marry, if we had just met...

School tomorrow! Wow, what a blessing. We've got two more weeks before school starts here. I'm moving to where you're at!

So S14 is giving you a hard time. Take it from me - you're just getting started so be strong. It was my experience that teen boys are a piece of cake compared to raising a teen girl, especially one you're raising on her own. UGH! Ashley was 100 times more difficult than Brandon. And even at almost 21 - she still pushes my buttons and gives me grief at times. Though I can honestly say today that I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

Back to school is always a good thing. Routine. New plans. Goals. Fresh starts.

You ARE a survivor now. Now it is up to you to create the life you really want. Figure it out. Do Overs can be a blessing.

Barb

Good luck with the back to school Donna! Is S14 starting high school then or was he already there? I can't remember.

Yes, 14 is such a PITA age! They know everything, don't think they need to ask to do anything, eat everything in sight (and even the stuff you thought you hid where you could ration it out!), and generally are 'too big' to be 'mothered'.

hey now, dad's aren't exempt from their all-knowing children either...

We start on the 11th. They said they may close the schools down if the swine flu gets...agressive. You guys seem to not ever care about it anymore. What's wrong with us here, dont get it!!!
Anyway, fresh starts, new year... I agree,take care,
xxx
K

So, they are too big to be "fathered," too? I just realized what a difference there is in those two verbs....

And mish, yes, today S14 is officially a freshman in high school. I'm actually excited for him - I loved high school.

Oh, they are still having reports all over the place on the flu - just saw Univ of Kentucky has quarenteened (sp?) almost 50 kids (most colleges just started last week or this week).

I hope they get the vaccines out pretty quickly. Chuckie actually HAD swine flu in June, and I was told he could get it again. The CDC came out and is thinking there may be more than 2x the number of deaths as usual, and almost 2 million people hospitalized here in the US this season.
And I teach elementary school, where you look out on a class of first graders and half of them have their fingers up their noses.... yuck.

Quote:

And I teach elementary school, where you look out on a class of first graders and half of them have their fingers up their noses.... yuck.

Blech!!!

See, that's why I have nothing but respect for teachers. Not only to deal with the kids themselves, but all the ickiness that comes along with them.

Personally, I'd have them all strung up on hooks on the wall before the day was out! NO PATIENCE!

The funny thing was that in college (yes, I went - just didn't graduate. Decided to go the M and family route - look where that got me!) I was an English major. Whenever someone would ask my major and I told them their first response was, "Oh, so you're going to teach?" I'd give them a horrified look and respond, "Heck NO! I'd be fired within a week! I can't handle more than 2 kids at a time." I never did figure out what one would do with an English degree other than teach, but that's neither here nor there.

So your Chuckie is a freshman. Isn't it an odd feeling to be the parent of a high schooler? It is for me. I loved high school too. I was very involved and I've been trying to encourage Marc to become involved too. He played football all through middle school but he can't play in high school, at least not this year, because his academics suffered too much last year. I did convince him to get involved in Octagon Club. It's a service organization that is the high school level for Optimist Clubs International. He actually chose it himself and I just kept encouraging his choice. Is Chuckie involved in sports? What kind of clubs does the school offer? Marc's high school has over 100 different clubs! It's just crazy!

Originally Posted By: Donna...Found

So, they are too big to be "fathered," too? I just realized what a difference there is in those two verbs....

LOL.

Yeah, they know it all and are much more the wise of their 'old man'. I think the first time they actually listened to story of my childhood they were in complete disbelief that I was actually their age once.

Wow...didn't realize how long I've been leaving my thread alone. I have to fill in some things, but work started this week and I am crazy-busy. I'll try tonight...

or maybe tonight?

I was just thinking the same thing today!

I keep doing fly-bys, but sitting and writing for a chunk of time has been hard. I'll try to get something down today, then copy and paste it tonight (can't from work - the school thinks this is a porn site!)

Needless to say, I am well

Hey Donna,

I'm glad that you aren't posting as often, because that's a sure sign of growth!

I have a question for you, and you can post the answer on my thread if you get the chance.

I am more than likely going to trial with STBX. She fired her attorney after a year, probably because he isn't telling her what she wants to hear.

She is still insisting on having 50% of my income. Do you know how alimony numbers are determined? I know, it's not exact, but 50%? C'mon!

I'll ask Gypsy the same thing!

FLTC

Originally Posted By: Donna...Found

Needless to say, I am well

I loved that!!! Dont know why, it sounded like you are doing REALLY well!! Anything interesting happening over there?
xxx
K

...

Just a very interesting quote (about having cancer, but "survival story" runs parallel):

Quote:

For me, as I think some others have said, constantly hearing how �strong� I am and with how much �grace� I�ve handled all this has mostly left me with the message that I should put on a brave face and help everyone else feel comfortable with my situation. When I send out updates, the ones that get the most comments and support are the positive, upbeat ones. The ones where I worry, complain, and share bad news are too often greeted with silence. My favorite responses ever were the ones that acknowledged what a raw deal I got and how much cancer sucks.
I have dealt with this situation with much more grace and fortitude than I ever expected from myself, based on how I�ve dealt with lesser problems in the past. I think the lack of choice is the key to that. When people say, �Oh, I don�t think I could go through that treatment; you must be so brave,� or whatever, I just say, �well, you know, it beats the alternative.� I was diagnosed with Inflammatory Breast Cancer in 2007 and I am lucky to be alive today. If I hadn�t had the treatments, or if they hadn�t worked as well as they did, I wouldn�t be here today, for sure.
The other thing, though, about being told all the time how well I�ve handled cancer, is that I now have almost no one to talk to about any other problems I might be facing. Because, after all, I should keep things in perspective: I survived cancer! how could anything possibly be wrong now?

Interesting. From my point of view, it sounds like the cancer victim is doing quite a bit of projecting....

so, what's up?

OK, it has been forever since I updated. Lots of things clicking in my head all at once, I guess.
I am sure that I'm leaving things out, but that's ok.

A big thing was my son's graduation from West Point Boot Camp for NJROTC - I am so proud of him. My in-law's drove up with me, and my X was there with my daughter and his sister.
No gut reaction in me. No stress, no drama. Nothing. I noticed he is wearing his beard as a goatee (eww on him), nothing more. xSIL took a family picture.
At the end, my son said he was starving, and I asked X if they wanted to stop at a diner we passed to all get lunch (he was bringing the kids with him - his weekend). At first, he said his sister had to get home, but she said she'd like to get together for lunch. I sat across from him - no deep convos, just kind of normal. It was fine, and I think the kids liked it.

It did feel a little sad to walk back to the car with in-laws and not the kids, but not a huge thing.

What a long, strange trip it's been, hmmm?

Anyway, came home, took a nap, kids were home by 7:30 and spent time with them.

I guess it did hit me later that night - but not about what you would think.
D10 had her hair up in a ponytail, and I had made the mistake to ask her who helped her with it. Stupid. I regreted it as soon as I said it and she quickly answered "I don't remember." I felt like sh!t that I had made her feel guilty.
At the same time, after everything I had been able to do that day, it was knowing that someone else had put my D's hair up, someone else trying to have her as part of their family. That is what got to me.
The loneliness came in, the rememberence of rejection, the wanting someone to love me like I had been long ago, missing being married and having a partner, etc.
It lasted about 2 hours. But again, it wasn't hysterics, just...weeping. Snapped out of it without lingering. No deep-seated pain that you can feel physically.
A mere hiccup, comparatively.

Another step forward. It is married life that I am missing, not really him, per se. And that isn't a constant, either. I did talk with my IC soon after that, and it was funny how, before I could even tell her about how I was feeling, that she knew what I felt was missing, what I wanted to eventually fill (an intimate relationship, a life partner). That I was well on my way with the work I was doing for myself, and that it would open me up to have opportunities for a healthy relationship - that there would be room for it in my life as I continued to move forward.
The goal is to have a personally successful year, just for me, first. Beyond surviving. Get back to a place in my career where I am shining again, finally climb on top of the household day-to-day chores (the adjusting to being a single mom is done - now, just to hone and practice it). Finish that damn grad degree.

I started Zumba last week - it's an 8-week thing. Kicked my A$$!!!! (Aerobics dancing set to latin music) Jumping around and shakin' ma thang for a solid hour - I could feel my face on fire. But it was a blast! Now, I just have to figure out how that woman is moving her feet so fast...I'm blaming it on my grippy running shoes. I was actually amazed I didn't trip over my own feet!
My appetite has recovered from the divorce diet (lost 45 pounds) with a vengence - back up 30!! Um, no thanks, body - I liked being thin! Seems sleep wants to do that, too (went from a year of getting no more than 2 hours a night, to now longing for a nap daily!). Discipline is something I am trying hard to embrace.

Then, there was the phone call Thursday. X wants me to share in the driving back and forth to his house (which is on the other side of town, about 15 min).
Taken off-guard, I said I would have to think about it, that it would probably have to be on a case-by-case basis, since I use that time. Curtly, he asked about Fri. I asked him if he had talked to the kids about their church group that was scheduled for that night. That's when it hit the fan....
We get the same emails from church. But I hadn't called him to tell him D was thinking about going, too (would be new for her) -
blah, blah, blah....you can probably imagine the rest. How I was still so selfish and inconsiderate, never a partner before, why should he be surprised now, etc.
I said that I am not going to manage his relationship with his kids - he had the same opportunity to talk to them about this that I did (they talk by phone every night, eat dinner together at least 2x/week). And if he missed stuff, that might just be a consequence of being divorced - I couldn't possibly know what they did and didn't discuss when they were together.
Well, he continued to attack me, and I'm not taking it anymore. Let's just say I got a lot off my chest while staying calm, while he took his usual path of self-justification, blame, calling me a b!tch and telling me f*ch you, that everyone would see someday what I really was, etc., how great she was and how happy he is. He said he is sick of people telling him how sh!tty he treated me while "forgetting" the abuse I heaped on him (history rewritten)- I mentioned that maybe, if you are hearing that from so many, that there might be some merit to it.
I redirected the convo back to the kids a few times, telling him he would get more accomplished if he learned some communication skills and stopped attacking me.
He finished the convo by saying he should have listened to my father years ago "and gotten the hell away as fast as he could." (My father died before my children were born, in 1994), then hung up on me.

He is an emotionally stunted, retarded individual, a bully.

I came to find out that he picked the fight with me because he had spoken to his mother earlier that day and she had hung up on him.

Apparently, he told his mother that she better get used to being around his girlfriend and accepting her - she said she didn't have to, and hung up.
Can you imagine being the girlfriend in this? Why would you want to force yourself upon people who don't even WANT to like you?
[wow, I just re-read that, and was struck by how I was doing that with X! I just didn't believe him for a long time...]
I think his family will tolerate her, each in their own time, so as not to loose him. They'll do what they have to do. And I am leaving them to that. Again, not as destroyed over that new reality, either. I'd rather be with my family and friends who I know love me for me, not just who I am married to - it's a tearing away, of sorts.

I feel badly for his parents - I don't have to deal with his drama, anymore. I can feel it - it doesn't effect me, anymore. He can rant all he wants, and I can finally see through it - IT'S NOT ABOUT ME!!
I have sympathy for everyone else this still hurts - his parents, his sibs, but most importantly, my kids. But in the end, my children are all who I can be concerned with. I'll just have to love them better; we don't get to pick our parents, and some have more flaws than others.

Our marriage broke for a lot of reasons - I have been working hard on mine. But he is still a broken man, and I don't know if or when he will ever see it. Not my problem, anymore.

The urgency that had gripped me for so long, wanting desperately to reach him, help him, has vaporized. I give up, but not in the defeated way that I had felt so badly about before. He WANTS to be this way....
like the drunk who won't quit until they decide they want to.
He simply cannot comprehend anything else - like humans can't hear ultra-high-pitched frequencies, this is just beyond him.

Someone asked me today if I would ever take him back.

It was the first time I could honestly answer

no.

Just went back and read page 19 - what a different place!

I recently did a mental list of all the things I lost, and all that X lost....
and I certainly came out ahead. Told him that in that last phone convo, and said thank you.
I'll try to get that down the next time I post.

Still struggling with some nasty sentiment toward gf. Getting there, though...at this point, I know it is just going to take time.

Meanwhile, dribs and drabs come to me through acquaintances, some people who grew up with her here in town and have known her a long time...unsolicited things about her.
1. She was always a "skanky b!tch" in school (from too many people for them to all be trying to make me feel better). I can't tell you how many people come up to me and say how they never liked her, even before this all happened, and that they weren't surprised that she had the capacity (although are surprised that my X "downgraded" so dramatically). I get the question asked all the time - he had an affair - with HER?! Like I should know the reason why!
2. She went after her X's inheritence - soon after the affair was exposed, his very wealthy brother offered him to go visit/stay with him/help out. Well, he did that, helped his brother tremendously and they were there for each other, but tragically, the brother died last year. Leaving him EVERYTHING. The man will never have to work another day in his life, lives on the beach on the Cape, and still owns the house here. She gets zero alimony.
Needless to say, she got nothing. But what audacity to even try.
3. She brought her 16 year-old daughter to get a tatoo. As big as your hand. On her shoulder blade.
When I asked my son if he had heard about it, he said "Mom, they're all dirt bags over there, what did you expect?" Before I could even ask him about it, he said he would NOT be thinking about or getting a tatoo!!

Just some recent things I don't think I posted about before. Sounds like X picked a real winner, hmm?
Just wish I could do more to buffer between the kids and her...but am realizing the advice about how I do that best when I concentrate on being the best parent I can be, and letting the contrast speak for itself.

Oh, another tidbit...

X bought his house with his sister as co-signer last October, just 4 months after the divorce.

The same sister who finally came out and said her long-time, still-married "friend" had moved in with her this summer - she has been having an affair with him since the early 90's. It was long-suspected but ignored, for the most part (he wasn't showing up at family holidays, was always referred to as a friend, etc., but everyone knew he was married while he spent lots of time with SIL). X never, ever liked or trusted the man because of it.
At one point, she told me she didn't understand what her brother had done, felt terrible, didn't like the other woman (remember, his family has known her as a "neighbor/friend of our family" for years), hoped he would wake up, etc.
Now, she goes to visit them regularly. What a surprise.
At least they have each other to commiserate with, right?

Donna,

As I read the last few posts here, I hear some strength in you that must be reflective of the struggles you have been through. Sorry your x is in la la land, and that he is with such a low life person. I know you hate that for your kids...

My x is dating a guy that seems pretty decent. The problem with that is that you then have to wonder.....is he really that much better than me, or is she on the rebound, or have they just not been together long enough to have any real problems....still in the honeymoon stage.....

Anyway, in the end, being the LBS is the more honorable place to be...tho in our society it seems that the one who gets 'dumped' seems to be thought less of....at least it seems that way to me.

Sounding good Donna... And, perhaps as a teacher, given the info about her high school years, that might be a route to compassion, you never know.

Originally Posted By: Donna...Found

Sounds like X picked a real winner, hmm?

Ahhh don't they all?

My wonderful XW picked the stereotypical exact opposite of me. They make quite the sight. I guess it wouldn't be so bad if XW was a little more low key, especially when it comes to her hair colors now. But OM? Hehe, everytime X and I are able to casually speak and she brings him up I always have to say, 'you could of done a hell of a lot better'.

Downgrade? UNDERSTATEMENT.

Compassion....interesting word. I think I am still at the Serenity Prayer stage...I'll leave the compassion to God. She's more of a pathetic character.

As far as x...
I remember reading Dear Abby while growing up, and her advice: Are you better off with him, or without him?
I know now that it is without him.
***

Went to the zoo with my kids and some great friends today - weather was wonderful and we had a great time! Nice way to wrap up the long weekend (which also saw us work together as a team to clean up the yard - it looks great - can't believe how quickly things changed to Autumn!)

On to continuing my good life...

Why did you have a long weekend?

Yom Kippur today - all schools closed. I took a sick day on Friday (the kids' school was closed for a professional development day).

OMG! I grew up in CA and have lived in GA for nearly 9 years. NO schools have ever been out for Yom Kippur! WOW! That's great!

We're a sleeper community to NYC. I've always had the Jewish holidays off, growing up on LI.
I'll count myself lucky.

Well, pity is a step in a positive direction :-)

Just got off the phone with x. Seems that he got part of his brain back tonight - he was actually civil. We talked about the kids. Made arrangements for me to get the kids after their visit tomorrow on my way back from zumba, and I don't have to run home like a crazy woman on Fri when they are getting ready to go to his house for the weekend (a sore topic for him).
Lots hope it sticks for a while.

Fingers crossed! That sounds like an almost pleasant convo ensued. Glad to hear it!

Things keep moving along - I can't believe that so much time passes between my own updates, now. I used to write, often many times in a day!

Anyway, things are settled into a routine with school/work/kids. They are both doing really well, especially S14 who is in ROTC and a few different youth groups with a local church. D10 still clings a bit more than I would like - she is just a homebody. I offer to have her friends over, but she'd usually rather be doing her own thing or hanging out with me. She did a basketball clinic but balked at going when she was with x this past weekend - might end up being her personality in the long-run.

I look back on all that I have been through, personally, and time gets all whacked-out. Seems like an eternity and all-at-once, both.
The original, out of the blue bomb is nearly 3 years old, and I started therapy the same month - still with the same woman (just saw her today), but going much less frequently. X bought the house and moved his gf and her kids in on Halloween last year, so that is practically a year.

I can say that over the last 2 months, I have finally shut the door. Man, I held on for a long, long time. Most of it was due to the co-dependency, but at the end, it was in hopes for my kids. But I know now that it can never be, not with the person who he chooses to be, the person he was all along but I saw with my fairy-tale glasses. In my own defense, he had many people thinking that he was a true-life hero, Superman in the flesh. I helped him portray that role, too - an unknowing accomplice. And he reinforced my role, that of the princess (though somewhere along the way he started to resent it - most likely when he felt it made him look less-than in the eyes of others).

I can sit here and list the things that I finally see in him, but it isn't really a factor, anymore. In the end, he isn't someone who I have respect for or wish to be friends with...he is just my kids' dad, and I can only hope that he uses his limited time with them well. That is between him and the kids.

The whole thing is sad, and something that I never, ever dreamed could happen, something that just "isn't right, isn't the way things are supposed to be." I wish it wasn't part of my children's story even much more than my own, but they will be ok, too.

My biggest challenge now is to avoid sharing any of the anger that is seeping up with the kids (yes, I am very late to that party - seems that it was pushed down while I had any glimmer of hope left - it was the biggest thing that showed me how closed the door is for me, now). And I still have the immense rage against the girlfriend - something that I hope to overcome - my new task. I am fighting my own inner-mother-bear instincts to protect my kids from her, given the kind of person she is (and always was). But I have to let them come to their own conclusions....I don't want to hurt my kids - they have to feel safe over there.
My IC pointed out how I was able to survive my childhood - I fell into denial to survive. What would have happened if I was forced to really see all the dysfunction that I had to endure, with no choices or escape? The kids are the ones who have to find a way to make it ok to be over there.

She pointed out that I really don't have a say over who they care about - not my business, just like it will be impossible to dictate who they fall in love with. But to be secure in knowing the influence and background that I have been able to provide them with - then, to just let them go with it.

I have been pretty good with not sharing my feelings about it with the kids, especially D10. They both know that I don't like her, but I have even told them that it is ok if they find a way to be comfortable over there. That, ANYwhere they go, if they ever feel uncomfortable or threatened, they can always call me or their father and we would help them.
It just feels like it will take a superhuman effort to get past this, but then again, I thought the same thing of getting past him, didn't I?

I just hate the pretending, fake-it-till-you-make-it crap that has to go into it. It is very hard for me to hold back, especially something that I am emotional about. That is, holding back from x, not the kids - I want to lay all the things I have learned over the course of 3 years on him, even when I know full well that it won't make the slightest impact at all, on anything (except build up his ego even more, that I went to all that time and energy, that I'm not really over him!) I have let him have it, finally, in a recent phone convo and the last co-parenting session we had - it had to come out for me to shut the door, but it is enough - and I didn't even lay it all out for him. But I did actually get an APOLOGY for the "ugliness" the day after the session - I contribute that to me finally sticking up for myself.

I have to stop, though, to pull myself out of the villan role he has pegged me in. And I don't want to be that stereotypical bitter woman who's husband left her and she went crazy (even if I was for a while). "Hate is a poison we take to kill someone else." When the IC mentioned today that letting this last vestige go is what will bring me peace...

that was when I finally cried. And I'm crying here, too, now. I'm not even sure why.

I remember reading something that, All pain is just resistance to what is.

Why am I resisting this...fear? Of what, really?
Why does it make me sick to think that the kids might come to actually like her - when that would make life easier for them?

Is it a loyalty thing? It feels like betrayal, again, if they find a way to like her. Is that fair to ask them, to take sides between their mother and father? Of course not...

Is it the deep-seated, irrational fear that he was right about all this and the reasons he gave for leaving, that I am a terrible person...so, I am trying to prove it was all his fault? The flip-side to his constant blame-game (so much easier to see in others than in yourself).

She said that the kids can't believe that their father left their mother for a monster....is it better for them to think he left their mother for someone who is better?

Damn, I hate being stuck. I hate crying.
But I remember back to when my son would get frustrated at rules, limits, etc., and he would cry, and I would tell him that was just the sound of him learning - that growing hurts, sometimes.

I wish I wasn't so thick. Maybe I'll read the boundaries book again.

(((((Donna)))))

Quote:

Is it the deep-seated, irrational fear that he was right about all this and the reasons he gave for leaving, that I am a terrible person...so, I am trying to prove it was all his fault? The flip-side to his constant blame-game (so much easier to see in others than in yourself).

I think the very fact that you can be circumspect and question yourself about that is a strong indicator that you're just fine. You're just a normal fallible human being just like everyone else, except that you have the insight to try to check and manage yourself. If you didn't have these questions, then you'd have something to worry about. KWIM?

But try to not let these same self-doubts continue to drag you down -- we have to keep those in balance as well. (Easier said than done, I know.)

Donna,

I don't comment much, or at all on your thread.

I read this one....it got to me.

I feel your pain...deep in my gut.

You can tell your kids that what their dad did was wrong. Cheating is wrong, adultery in wrong. The world has a moral fabric. If what he did was OK, they they are supposed think it's OK to break promises and break up families. Yet, at the same time, we must forgive people. Hate the sin, love the sinner. They love their dad, though they don't approve of what he did. What applies to their dad, to a lesser degree, applies to the OW.

That's all you can do.

Ummm.....How are you supposed to feel about the woman who willfully participated in the destruction of your marriage and the breakup of your family?

You are crying because you are human, and you were screwed over in a terrible way. This is not the way things should be. Your husband did an evil thing and the repercussions will last throught your children's lives. You are sad because you can't undo it. You are sad because you can't prevent this from hurting your kids.

But...you can choose to love and live with joyful passion. There is cruxifiction, but there is resurrection. Practice resurrection. I believe you have been doing that. Keep it up.

But you are here. You are a Divorce Buster. you are one of the good guys. You have shown character, kindness and hope. You are a lovely person. You have shown yourself faithful and true. All the guys here would be honored to be with a woman like you, Donna.

--Theoden

Heard this on the way home tonight, and actually felt hope. I'm not dead, yet, so it seems....

Quote:

So you think that it's over, say your love
has finally reached the end
Any time you call, night or day, I'll be right there for you
If you need a friend

It's gonna take a little time, I know, time is
sure to mend your broken heart
But don't you even worry, pretty darlin, 'cos
I know you'll find love again

Love is all around you, love is knockin' outside your door
Waitin' for you is this love made just for two
Keep an open heart and you'll find love again, I know

Love is all around you, yeah yeah, love
is knockin' outside your door
Waitin' for you is this love made just for two
Keep an open heart and you'll find love again, I know

[Solo]

[ Find more Lyrics on www.mp3lyrics.org/N4NU ]
It's all around
It's all around

Love will find a way - darlin', love is gonna find a way
Find its way back to you
Love will find a way - so look around, open your eyes
Love is gonna find a way - love is gonna, love is gonna
Love is gonna, love is gonna find a way, yeah
Love will find a way - love is gonna find a
way back to you, yeah yeah yeah

[Solo]

Love will find a way - darlin', love is gonna find a way
Find its way back to you
Love will find a way - oh just look around, look around
Open up your eyes now, honey
Love is gonna find a way - love is gonna, love is gonna
Love is gonna, love is gonna find a way, yeah
Love will find a way - love is gonna find a
way back to you, yeah, I know

Ya know, you probably just want to skip below. I'll post it anyway, but you probably already know pretty much what I'll say. If a strong unsympathetic 2x4 isn't going to help, just skip it. I don't really think at this point that it will be helpful, but on the off-chance...
---------
Hey,

A few quick thoughts...

(1) Please try to take the pressure off your kids. You don't tell someone "hey, its OK if you like so and so," if it is really OK. Your kids know, they feel the pressure, it isn't good for them. Imagine a parent telling one of your students, "Gee son, maybe art is kind of gay, but if you really like it, go for it, I'll be fine, really." This does nothing other than broadcast the parent's disapproval of art and that the parent will in fact have a problem if the kid pursues it.

(2) To take the pressure off the kids, you have to get past your GF baggage.

(3) Why do you hold onto the GF stuff so tightly? GF did not cause the end of your M or the problems in your M. Your XH's betrayal of you was far worse -- he was the one in your M, not GF. Yet, you insist on holding GF as THE biggest evil. She is not. She cheated. Your XH cheated. GF is no less redeemable than XH.

You seem to have this conditional statement in your head:

If I let go of GF baggage, THEN it will mean that I am worthless and deserved to be treated like crap and am unlovable.

In fact, this if FALSE. Some strange woman from across the street who had an A with your XH and is now his GF has NOTHING to do with your value as a person or how you deserve to be treated or whether you are lovable. Nor does she really have much to do with you having those issues. But, you already know that.

Continuing to blame her and make your value contingent on that blame is keeping you very stuck. It is none to good for your kids, as she is effectively their step-mother, a half-sibling would be zero surprise, and they effectively have step-siblings already. SHE IS IN THEIR LIVES AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. Let your kids have a good life with their father and his partner.

I had all sorts of childhood and teen trauma that my mother never knew about. Why? Because I knew it was my job to take care of her mental health. Do you really want your kids to have to do this for you?

Of course, if you quit blaming GF for the end of your M, then you�ll be left instead with the facts about the end of your M. Your M ended because it didn�t work. Some Rs don�t work. Indeed, most Rs don�t work. There is no need to place blame.

Would it really be a bad thing to accept that it was best that your M end? Are you still trying to win, still trying to be �right�?

People do bad things. XH and his GF treated you horribly. The A was wrong, the lies were wrong. Forgiving them both and moving forward does not make what they did right. Forgiving them both and moving forward does not give them power over you, instead it lessens the power you are giving them in your own head.

(4) Continuing to try to get through to XH and tell him about you is inappropriate. He is not interested in an intimate personal R with you. Stop intruding. What is in his head is none of your business and has nothing to do with you. It is as inappropriate for you to continue to obsess about his beliefs and to continue to obsess about sharing your insights with him as it would be for you to try to horn in on my husband�s personal thoughts, beliefs, and life. Your mental welfare is not his job, nor his responsibility, nor would it in any way be appropriate for him to try to manage it. Back the hell off your XH. You are not in a personal intimate R with him. You have no claims on him, he has no obligation to take an interest in your personal growth.

P.S. Maybe it is time to work through things with your ex-sponsor and get back to work on the co-dependent stuff.

Quote:

Why am I resisting this...fear? Of what, really?
Why does it make me sick to think that the kids might come to actually like her - when that would make life easier for them?

Is it a loyalty thing? It feels like betrayal, again, if they find a way to like her. Is that fair to ask them, to take sides between their mother and father? Of course not...

I recently read an little essay my son wrote that said he had 3 loving parents, and I have to admit it hurt a little, but not as much as I thought it would. I am glad my son feels loved. I am secure in knowing how much my son loves me. She will never replace me as his mother, he will never love her as a mother. But he can feel loved by her without taking anything away from me.

Quote:

She said that the kids can't believe that their father left their mother for a monster....is it better for them to think he left their mother for someone who is better?

Their father left their mother for someone else, that is his failing and the kids know that on some level. But they love their father, so they will put that aside and have their relationship with him. He didn't leave you for someone better. A better person does not get in the middle of someone elses marital problems, that is something that a broken person does. So two broken people clung to each other rather than face their own failings. Is that better, no. But it is what is, so continue to be the mom you want to be and let go of the fears. Your kids will love you as their mom, she can't change that.

Quote:

He didn't leave you for someone better. A better person does not get in the middle of someone elses marital problems, that is something that a broken person does. So two broken people clung to each other rather than face their own failings. Is that better, no.

Very well said and I thank you for it. It seems Donna and I have a lot of the same issues with the gf in our xh's lives and their impact on our kids. I knew all of this somewhere in my head, but it was good to see it spelled out by an outside party.

Quote:

Let your kids have a good life with their father and his partner.

That is the thing that I am working towards...sooner rather than later. I know how important it is, and I know that my feelings have to be separate from the situation that the kids are in. I also know that feelings change with time...I can be patient with myself as long as I am taking care of my kids.

Friends, I appreciate all of your feedback. Like I said, it is the resistance between where my head is and where my emotions are.
I don't think I am as stuck as I originally thought. Seems that things come to a head for me before I have another "click."

In actuality, I speak very little or not at all with the kids about their time with their father. I don't ask about anything except if they had fun, if they remembered to bring everything they wanted home, etc. S14 doesn't get into too much detail with what they do over there. D10 will tell me of the games she played with the other girls. No complaints of anyone being mean, or anything else. I can be grateful for that.

It is hard to trust two people who betrayed so completely. It is not just the gf at this point (I don't think I fleshed out that realization before). The anger that came up in the co-parenting session was at both of them - in the heat of it, I even said that I felt bad for the kids to be stuck with him for a father.
But will either of them cause long-term damage to my kids? I don't think so - I don't think there is enough exposure (I thank God everyday that x didn't go for more custody). And I do think that both of them will bend over backwards to try to have the kids like them - if for no other reason that to make themselves feel better for all that happened.
I had worried about x's propensity to blow up in anger at the kids - I had always been the calming influence. We played "tag team" when either of us got frustrated....with him having such little, and concentrated, time with the kids, I think the angry outbursts at the kids has stopped - he seems more careful with them. Maybe with all of this, they will get the best out of him.

So, I am trying really hard to get to that place...I think I am on the way (and have been for many months - things have been coming into focus faster in relation to the slow-down of my journaling).

Thanks for checking in with me, all.

Oh, and to answer these questions:

Was it better for my marriage to end?

With time, and I am thinking that, for me, this might possible turn out to be the case.

I am not sure about the long-term effects on the kids. But I can help as much as possible to better those odds, if I continue to work on me.
I do hope that my daughter doesn't grow up to be blind to a man's disrespect...

The other point, about wanting my x to know my thoughts on things, either about myself, or my views on him...
Nope, don't want to share, not really. I don't think he could comprehend and/or even listen, anyway. I've banged my head against that wall once too many times - finally learned.

"So, I am trying really hard to get to that place...I think I am on the way (and have been for many months - things have been coming into focus faster in relation to the slow-down of my journaling)."

Donna,

You are working through some very intense stuff. Things we are all thinking about and may end up living with.

You are gracious to share your struggle with us.

--Theoden

Crap. My face hurts again.

Really, really hard session at the IC.

My D10 and I bumped into x at the store yesterday; he was just standing, watching the cart, so I knew that his gf wasn't far. I turned to D10 and said, Look, go say hi to your Dad.
Problem is, she froze. It all happened in a split second - one of those things that you feel, intuit. She must have sensed that my stomach clenched. I could feel her anxiety, her look of, "Oh, sh!t!," being caught in the middle.
Of course, she went over to say hello. I turned back to the meat in the case. Then we got together and left (really before my shopping was done, but I was done).
She was trying to take care of me, which is NOT where I want my D10 to be! Not fair...
I don't want to screw up my kids. I don't want to hurt them. That is what made me bawl tonight. I feel guilty, and still want to be able to fix something that is beyond repair.

All a continuation of a theme. I HAVE TO get past this, more for them at this point.

The IC said that she thinks I am holding on, that it is a "safer" place (although not a healthy one), rather than face work on myself, getting on with life. I am playing the part of victim of an affair.
Have to accept that it is over, that x isn't doing anything "to" me, anymore, accept the reality of the situation. The kids have accepted the divorce; they aren't wishing it away.

She said that maybe it just is too soon for me, but senses an inner struggle. That I am tired of all this. I went in with a timeline of things:

Quote:

Summer 05 � I told her to back off (4 � years ago)
5/06 sex in our house (3 � years ago)
(July 06 was our Cape Cod family vacation)
11/06 bomb (3 years ago)
7/07 he left (2 � years ago)
I go into the psych ward 10/07 and 1/08
6/08 divorced (1 1/3 years ago)
10/08 he bought a house w/her (1 year ago)

We met 5/31/86 � 20 years later, he was unfaithful
Married 5/31/92 � 16 years (22 together) later, we were divorced
Daughter is only 10� we only got her to 7 � before we fell apart.

She promises that this is the last push. I am just so tired. I have been forced to accept so much, to adjust, to change so radically. How can there possibly be more? But there is....for the kids. So I don't remain the victim, bitter and resentful.
What would be the best FOR THE KIDS? What should that look and feel like?

I am afraid; afraid that I can't pull it off, afraid that I will keep trying but not be able to repress or, better, get past these feelings, afraid of damaging my kids, afraid of not being strong enough.
Afraid that I really am worthless, unloveable, and will forever forward be alone like I am now. (I have heard through the grapevine that his family has started to agree with him, that they've said he is a saint for putting up with me for so long, that I was lazy and he did everything - I know it for what it is, I know they are trying to heal the wounds between them and their brother, doing the family thing - but it still stings. This is not including his parents, who are still tenents...but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do their own mental acrobatics in order to find a way to regain a better relationship with their son).

Here is the old, old quote again: Let Go and Move On.

I called my sister tonight. I told her why I think I hold on....everyone I have ever loved and cared for deeply is either dead or has rejected me. I looked to x to give me the love and validation that I didn't get from my parents. And I got that for a long time (was it real, for the whole time? I can't really know for sure, anymore). But he convinced me that I was someone worthwhile, loveable.
Until I wasn't. Eight months of confusion, followed by anger and venom - the most opposite thing to what I had thought I had.

Sis pointed out some of my flaws, but said that I was the one who really had to look for all of them (since everyone can wear a mask with others, but much harder to hide from yourself). I was always looking for someone to help and take care of me. She saw it as selfishness...I can see it as more co-dependence, blurred lines in where I started and ended. This is better, at least. I will always have to be aware of it. But there are other things to work on - that, given the number of people who have decided that I'm "not worth it," maybe there is truth in that and things to look at and improve on.
Things have to get better, since I have the majority of time with the kids. I have to live up to my responsibility to them, even if it is hard.
Learned helplessness (the co-dependence/help me in my life) from mom, the alcoholic? Maybe. I complained that even she had been able to "keep her husband." Sis pointed out that was obligation, responsibility, not love.

All I ever wanted was for him to love me. Sis said that is all I ever want from anyone; but that it shouldn't matter, and I can't look for validation outside of myself.

Have I had this conversation before? I am having some deja vu, here....

ANYway, here is the question for my friends here:

How did YOU close the door? My IC told me to ask all of you, see if you can tell me what it is you did, said, thought about, etc., that got you to accept and move on.
I know that the optimal goal is for my x, my kids and I, probably even the gf, to all be in the same room together with no pressure or anxiety, someday. It's not going to be enough for me to just pretend - my kids are too intuitive for that.
It seems like an impossible thing...I just don't know if I am strong enough. But I have to be, for them.
How?
I understand the drive to self-medicate, now. I just want to stop feeling...

Donna,

I wish I had words of wisomd for you. However, my own internal conflicts and work with my C and the D are much the same. At times, I felt like I 'closed the door', but I guess just ended up pacing back and forth afterward wanting to know 'why isn't she knocking?' and then just open it back up a crack to let some light shine out.

Maybe we're just waiting for them to us the favor and just gently close the door for us?

Oh, I know that he slammed the door shut - but "standing outside the closed door," just staring at it - that resonates with me. Thanks for checking in...

Any other ideas, guys?
Does anyone ever have to deal with the other person and x showing up for a kids' event? I am struggling, knowing that the best reaction I can have (FOR MY KIDS) is to feel nothing, just be polite, like seeing acquaintances at school...seems like an almost super-human task.

I don't know that i will be a lot of help since ex just dropped the "I am engaged" bomb on my head Sunday. I don't remember if I even told him to get out but I do know that I pushed him out and closed the door on him. That hurt. The shock is starting to fade.

Before that bomb, I felt pretty good. Didn't give him much thought except when he messed with the kids in some way. I had even took the high road and suggest to him that he have the girls for about an hour so that they could Trick or Treat at his parents since this may be their last year.

I thought about how I wanted my life, the things I wanted to do with my kids. Ex wasn't anywhere in that picture.( This was about a year ago). It felt really good to realize that. His actions still caused me grief, such as when he filed bankruptcy and left me no choice but to follow. He can still push buttons but I try very hard to see it is just him trying to manipulate me.

I haven't risen above it yet but I am working my way up there.

kat

Just another thought, before anyone else can love you, you have to love yourself. From what I can tell you are pretty special and I have enjoyed our chats.

I don't even want to think of seeing his GF at an event. I know if it ever happens we will be sitting worlds apart. I guess I have a little while before I have to deal with her and I am in no rush.

kat

Originally Posted By: Donna...Found

How did YOU close the door?

I thought about all the things I did not like about my XW. And they were substantial. Enough for me to realize that I am much better on my own without her.

But mostly I dont dwell on the past. I take the attitude to always plan things for the future and look forward to that.

Maybe your C is not helping you enough in working with the principles SBT.

Donna, I've had the pleasure a few times of having to deal with OP. Honestly, I felt nothing. I actually had a pleasant chat with OP last time we had the pleasure! I dropped in to STBX's place with D12 to pick up something she had forgotten. STBX did not answer the door so D said she was probably in the backyard, so we went there. She was right, there was STBX and OP sitting there sipping drinks. I was actually quite surprised that I didn't have any kind of reaction. Think about it, there is OP sitting in MY friggin' backyard sipping a drink. That could get an emotional reaction but it didn't. I think it may be because I don't blame OP, STBX is the one who broke our vows. In a way, I feel sorry for OP because she (yes, she) is allowing STBX to just keep her on a shelf. You must be a very lonely person to allow that. OP never sees or spends time with our children and I have no idea why STBX wants it that way...maybe it's the lesbo thing...who really knows. But, that's my 2 cents anyway...don't know if it was much help but I tried.

Well Donna, I don't really have issues with OM being with XW, he wants her, he can have her as she is the person she became, and I certainly don't like that person.

My issue with OM is being directly involved from get go one in my kids lives and essentially taking my place with out so much as uttering one word to me. So in that regard, no there will be no cushy sitting around at BBQ's and he is not to attend any events for the kids, XW knows I will tear him limb from limb if he does.

Originally Posted By: Donna...Found

But there are other things to work on - that, given the number of people who have decided that I'm "not worth it," maybe there is truth in that and things to look at and improve on.

Donna, I haven't posted here much, I hope you don't mind, but i wonder if it's that, or maybe it could just be more about those people; the kind of people that would tell a person they're not worth it; I mean maybe some of it is those people are flawed? If you're family not much you can do, other than try to avoid them as much as you can, but if friends, maybe work on having more healthy, caring, supportive friends?

I think it's hard to figure out how you decide to move on. I think some might be time; some of us take longer than others. I think sometimes it's not good to move on too quickly; I see some people get over their WAS in a month or less here and I wonder if that's even possible.

I have taken off the rose-colored glasses and see my X more clearly, see his flaws, and realize it would be hard if not impossible to have a healthy R with him.

I think one of the main things that helped me detach and move on was working on my self-confidence & self-esteem. The better I feel about myself, the more it helps me detach. Not sure why that is though.

Donna,

As I said, I don't post much here. My marriage may end, but there's no OM in the pic now. He dropped my wife as soon as the affair was exposed.

But I can understand your feelings. Mentally, I live where you do. I have a horrifically strong sense of right and wrong.

Here are some things the come to mind.

1. Your feelings are normal. You are supposed to feel angry and upset. An injustice was done. Modern times require us to have to live in the face of this insanity. In olden days the men in your clan would have probably strung up your ex and ow. Talk about closure, medieval style. In today's environment, we are suppose to cultivate acceptance and we're told to let go and move on. And we're supposed to share our children with people who stole our spouses from us and broke up our families. What I'm saying may seem, on the surface, to add fuel to the fire. But I would be worried about you if you didn't feel outrage, anger and stress. Forgiveness and acceptace will come when you are ready.

2. They say time heals, perhaps you need to be a little easier on yourself and understand that you will, bit by bit, handle encounters with ex and OW more graciously. Forgiveness will come.

3. I think it's commendable that you are worried about your kids not having to "care" for you. That's more than I can say for your ex, who exposed them to this insanity. You are going to react, and for a time, your kids will bear the burden of being uncomfortable around you and the OW.

4. The little that I have seen of you is that you are thoughtful, kind and want to be loved. You are alive and interesting. Sure, you have your flaws. But I don't see any real fatal flaws.

5. In psychology you will be told to love yourself that you don't NEED other people's love so desperately. Theology will tell you that you need to allow God to love you fully, so that you see youself as loveable and delightful, and therefore, are not so desperate for other people's love. I think this is a life-long process we all grow in. There's no button to push. It takes time.

Questions for you.......

1. Sometimes when we are trying to play, "I'm OK, you're OK, the divorce was no-one's fault" game for the kids, it becomes clear to our kids that we are bull-sh*tting them.

Did you have that pseudo-conversation with the kids?

2. Perhaps being honest with the kids --saying, straight out, "Dad had and affair and left me. That's wrong, in fact it's immoral. It hurt me and I'm angry about it. You dad never apologized to me and he's not sorry. It's going to take some time for me to forgive and move on. But people can make mistakes, and we can still love them, even when they are wrong. I am working on being that kind of person. Your dad still loves you and even though what he did was wrong, I know you love him too, and that's OK. We both love you very much."

Did you have that kind of conversation with your kids?

We are supposed to shield our kids, but they can also smell dishonesty.

--Theoden

Donna--wow, do I know how you feel. it's as if things aren't bad enough, now there's the OW trying to be another mother to our kids, and we're supposed to just accept it and go on.

In my sitch, I found out in July that my D13 had been spending time with OW and her family since January. She never told me about it because she didn't want to hurt my feelings--or have me blow up like I did when I found out they all had dinner together without any preparation for D13 at all. I was crushed; however, a couple of months later D13 had a 3-hour-long chat with me, which she initiated. She has known all along that OW broke up the marriage; she figured it out on her own. It was fairly obvious anyway. She feels very much like a low priority to her father, sort of like his 4th child instead of his only one. He has tried to force a relationship with OW and her daughters, and D13 is pushing back--which is very out of character. She doesn't like them at all, wants nothing to do with them, really doesn't want much to do with her father at this point, and predicts "she'll dump him once she's done using him" to help her muck out horse stalls and watch her grandson. In short, D13 "gets it" about her father's character, about OW, and appreciates being able to talk with me. There may come a day when I'll have to face OW--most likely at 8th grade graduation in May--but there will always be an opposite end of the room to sit.

And listen--no, your xH was NOT right, you are NOT defective. It's a natural part of being left for someone else to feel discarded and rejected. But the flaw is not in you. Sure, learn what you can about whatever your role might be so that the same issues don't pop up in future relationships. But it was xH who fooled around with the neighbor and didn't honor his vows or his family. And THAT is a fatal flaw.

Just my 2 cents.

It took time. At first, I kept busy just so that I didn't lose hours wrapped up in my own depressed thoughts. I tried the stop sign. I lost myself in a lot of books. I worked out.

Then I noticed I could go a day or two without getting caught up in it.

At some point about a year later, after his brief and half-a$$ed attempt at R failed and he was back with OW, I yelled into the mirror that "I just want my H back" and it didn't hit me in the gut. It didn't ring true. I was too angry at being betrayed a second time.

I've seen too much of his flaws. I've lost respect for him. I can't trust him. I can't depend on him. It took a long time for my self-esteem to recover, for me to begin to question that it was my fault that he left.

And once I was over that hump, it was all downhill. I still think about the past sometimes. But most days it doesn't hurt as much.

Of course, I have a biased opinion since we don't have kids, I don't have to deal with STBXH or OW often, if at all. That distance has helped me tremendously.

I SO appreciate all of your thoughts...

Kat - engaged?! gag. But I am glad that you can't see him around in your future, so I guess it really doesn't matter in the long run, does it?
Do I see my x in my future? I guess the only sticking point is about the kids - milestones, ceremonies, hopefully grandchildren someday. I puke a little thinking that gf will probably be at these things, too. However, no one can see into the future, so I just have to drop it - worrying about things that haven't even happened yet.
It does put a damper on other family gatherings, namely his family's. Just as I was feeling strong enough to think about stopping by at Thanksgiving, he has also grown bold enough to include his gf. I'm not going to put myself (or anyone else) in that situation. So, I've closed the door on that old part of my life, as well. It was hard, but not terrible (I guess every loss pales in comparison to what I've already been through). I'll have to forge new traditions with my family (who are scattered a bit), my kids and my friends.

I have already had to be around her - the two of them showed up at one of my son's BMX meets over the summer. They stayed far away, but it pissed me off (and I think I said as much to him soon after). My D10 and hers are both in the same grade / school, so they show up "as a family" while I'm usually on my own to watch my D sing in choir, etc.
These are the times that I need to go numb, just not give a sh!t - and I'm still finding it hard. My sis pointed out that it is pretty selfish, that I have to put my kids first. I'm trying. Maybe I am trying to hard to "fast-forward..."

Kerry - SBT, like the stop-sign? What other techniques? Maybe I need a refresher. I've thought about hypnosis...hey, what could it hurt, right?

wii - I do place part of the blame on gf - remember, we knew each other for a dozen years, she let me cry on her shoulder and offered to help me save my marriage, all while she was already having sex with x.
Not all the blame, anymore. But a good half. They were both slimy.

dday - x doesn't care if I want to tear her apart - guess I was never scary enough. I should "just be over it." Matter of fact, he has pointed to any anger I have with her as evidence of what a terrible person I am.

Karen - I think you might be onto something, pointing out that the people who have rejected me might be pretty flawed, themselves.
Seemed that everyone in my early years were only reinforcing the message I was getting at home, when in probably reality, I was just over-sensitive and young / inexperienced. I hope that's the case, but I am looking at ways to improve, anyway - can't hurt.
Taking off the rose-colored glasses....most of the time, I see the man x is today. But in weak moments, my mind starts to play tricks on me and brings the good things to the surface, obliterating the recent turn. I go back and re-read the reality paper I wrote often, which helps.

Theo - thanks...there is a lot of reality in what you wrote. I can only imagine what might have happened if my father was still alive. I may be pushing time along a little too quickly.
About #3, the kids bearing the burden - that sucks, and I want to do everything in my power to limit it. Yes, I can point to how x didn't care, but that doesn't let me off the hook - just more important that I get my sh!t together that much more quickly.
Thank you for the compliments, too - I hope that I am those things (I find it very hard to know how people perceive me, now). I do know that my lack of proper boundaries led me to have some unwittingly selfish behaviors, and I have pretty much corrected that over this time - I am amazed at all I can do with no help or "company" from anyone else! I've left behind the Princess...
I am working on understanding and studying about God's love. Like you said, that may take a lifetime to grasp and accept. I am, at heart, a questioner.

Talks with the kids - the original, "We are separating and dad is moving out" talk was done all together and didn't get into why beyond us not getting along like we should. X screwed up soon after, though, and started lying to the kids when he wanted to have gf around right away. My S asked about it, and I told him. D has gotten the gist of things over the 2 years we're apart...she asked me once why I don't like gf, and I just said that she did something that I didn't think was right, and we're not friends, anymore.

Hoosier - I hope that D10 will talk to me as more of this comes into her awareness. I just don't want her to feel torn apart. I remember when she needed surgery as a baby - I would have done anything to trade places with her to keep her from the pain, but I couldn't. I could only love her and comfort her while she healed.

Michelle - time...wish I had distance, too. Just have to find a way to deal.

Thanks, all.

Donna,

My prayers and heart are with you.

Bear with me for a moment....

Once, a friend of mine told me the reason my kids are having a difficult time with authority and other such things is because their mother is an unrepentant adulterer and they don't know it. It's the elephant in the room no one is talking about. In some sense, the moral fabric of the universe has been violated and though the kids feel the consequences, they have been "shielded" from the reason why. This leads to great confusion and insecurity.

If we divorce, my grounds will be my wife committed adultery and she isn't one bit sorry and cannot commit to being faithful to me. Maybe I'm being too flippant, but I will feel obligated to tell the kids why we are divorcing if that happens. Divorce is a public act. We would be tearing the family apart, and I feel my kids need to know that the universe has a moral center and that, at least, one of their parents stood for the marriage. Otherwise, they will think the world is random, and the people you trust just up and leave you and stop loving each other. How do they know that one day I will won't just stop loving them?

Yes, I'm flawed too, and I caused some of the problems in our marriage. But...I remained faithful. And I don't mean to sound all pious, but that does matter, Donna. It matters in all our situations.

What do you plan to tell your kids about marriage and fidelity? Do they go to Sunday school? What happens when they get to "Do not commit adultery?"

This information sort of trickled down to your kids. And I understand there is age-appropriate information. My sense, however, is that it would be healthier for them to know what their dad did was wrong, not simply that "mom and dad can't get along". Better they learn to love people in spite of their faults than to live with vague unease that something is dreadfully wrong and no one is saying what's really going on. Why exactly don't you like your ex's girlfriend? Are you just a jealous sour-puss who randomly dislikes people? Perhaps understanding that this woman is a home-wrecker and adulterer might put things into perspective for them. As a Christian, I am called to forgive my enemies. But, then, of course, I need to name them as an enemy. Forgiveness happens when an offense has happened. The offense needs to be named.

I know you want to take the hit for your ex-husband in order to shield your children and not "poison" their relationship with their father. You are not Jesus, Donna. And if you believe in Him, I don't think He wants to you lie to your kids to protect their father.

His relationship with his girlfriend will never be OK -- in fact, it's a living, breathing, stinking lie.

Forgive me if I'm going on too much about this....the angry prophet reared his head. If I've gone too far, forgive me. I deeply get your pain.

--Theoden

Theoden - excellent post as usual. I really like the stuff that you write.

In regards to kids understanding, I was recently suprised by my 9 year old son. He and I were waiting in the Sunday school area of a church for my daughters girl scout meeting to finish and he found a poster with the childrens version of the Ten Commandments. When he read the "Remain always faithful to your spouse", he commented to me that his mother had broken that law.

Donna - SBT stands for Solution-Oriented Brief Therapy. It is what Michelle Weiner Davis discusses in more detail in chapter 3 of her Divorce Busting book. I dont remember her discussing it in Divorce Remedy. There should be web sites that list counselors for your area and what theories they practice - you might want to look for the ones that say "Solution Focused". Basically, it bypasses focusing on the past and instead seeks solutions to your current problems.

The past is not going to get any better or worse. You cannot rewrite history and change what has already happened. What is past is all said and done. You should learn from the past and apply it to what is ahead in the future. What remains to be seen is what you can bring to your present and future.

The below are the words that John Wayne has inscribed on his tombstone and I hope they have meaning to you as they did for me...

Tomorrow is the most important thing in life.
Comes into us at midnight very clean.
It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learnt something from yesterday.

Theo - My focus with the kids is not to help my x have a relationship with them for his sake; it is to minimize the damage to THEM. Any attack or harsh words towards him cuts into the kids - they are made of both of us. My son knows what happened; my daughter will come to know as she is mature enough to absorb the reality at her own pace. They also saw the enormous amount of pain and hurt I went through that I just couldn't hide - but that only makes it more important for them to see me survive / thrive afterwards.

Kerry - Thanks for the link - that is the therapy model most often used by my therapist. I am just a stubborn case

She asked me what would have been the best-case scenario for when I met up with x in the store with D10....I immediately jump to "That her parents didn't get a f'ing divorce!" I think she gets exasperated, sometimes...

I was thinking about it the other day...I just have to embrace that I am divorced, go beyond accepting it. I get that I am, but I'm still pissed off about it (while at the same time, seeing how the marriage couldn't be restored, or even wanting it to be).

I think I might feel guilty, holding back on myself embracing it - then, I condemned my kids to a broken home / second-best, too.
After fighting so long for an intact family, it is hard to come to believe that this may have been the best outcome.

Resistance = pain...

Quote:

My focus with the kids is not to help my x have a relationship with them for his sake; it is to minimize the damage to THEM. Any attack or harsh words towards him cuts into the kids - they are made of both of us. My son knows what happened; my daughter will come to know as she is mature enough to absorb the reality at her own pace. They also saw the enormous amount of pain and hurt I went through that I just couldn't hide - but that only makes it more important for them to see me survive / thrive afterwards.

Donna, I could have written that exact statement! In my case it is the daughter who is older and gets it and my son who is a bit clueless. My daughter and I have never discussed it, but she is aware. If we are watching TV and something comes on regarding someone cheating on a partner she gets pissed! She gets the anger out that she cannot express to her father. If she ever asks me direct questions about the circumstances I will answer them as directly as possible. But she gets it because my X was so blatant about his relationship from before he even moved out. He spent all of his time with her, she was his new "best friend"....and then he married her two weeks after our divorce was final, so they get it. And they know it is wrong, but that is his issue to deal with, not mine. And I don't attack or bad-mouth him, they don't need that. They see him for who and what he is. Ironically, he bad-mouths me, mostly about financial stuff, and we have discussed it, so they see that side of him also. Sometimes the high road is a good place to be!

Donna,

Yes....attacks and harsh words, coming from a bitter place are bad for the kids. I think you've told them the truth in an honest, loving way.

There were times, Donna, in the first 12-18 months after the bomb that I would go to the nearest open Catholic church during lunch, sit in the back, and sob, telling God "I'm sorry I was such a bad husband that my wife felt compelled to cheat on me. I'm sorry that I can't or won't change into the kind of man that attracts her back. I'm sorry my divorce-busting efforts are so pathetic I'm sorry that I failed my family and children."

Yeah, I cried me a river of tears.

Maybe you still feel that way a little.

I'm done crying.

You see, the fact that I was there crying meant that my heart was in the right place. The fact that you wanted an intact family for your kids means you are one of the good guys, Donna.

I'm slowly becoming more of a person that I like. I realize that I'm worth taking care of. But I'm doing it for me, not to win my wife back. She may come back, but if she doesn't, there's a wonderful life for me with or without another woman in my life. I envy the woman who's heart I capture. ;-) The world needs my gifts and my joy. My kids need my passion and strength.

I see the same for you. You are one of the good people, Donna. I so want to see you flourish.

I can't rack my brains with best outcomes. Your husband's affair and leaving you was wrong. Shouldn't of happened. Terrible thing. And yet..it's quite possible that for you, the best is yet to come. I have this sense, that perhaps, in some strange way, if my wife and I split up, for me the best years of my life will clearly be ahead of me. That might be possible if we stay together, but who knows?

Allow me to toast your wonderful and joyful life to come -- starting today!!!!

Peace,

Theoden

Donna...I came to check in (shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh)

I got over my ex, essentially, when I started to like me again.

Once I started liking me, I started realizing that what he did was not about how worthless or unworthy I was but rather based on his own jackas sedness.

And i realized that while I was not dumb in loving the person he had presented himself to be, I would a fool to love the person he was proving himself to be
and

not a fool in love kind of fool
but a driving the car
top speed
with the headlights off
on a cliff road
kinda fool

i may be naive
trusting
hopefully
blah blah blah

but out and out stoooooooooopid...I don't think so

and
it helped that his girlfriend was so white trash they shared teeth!!! :-)

Quote:

and
it helped that his girlfriend was so white trash they shared teeth!!! :-)

OMG 'figgeroni'

! That was FRICKIN' HYSTERICAL!

Great post.

I do my best

Originally Posted By: Donna...Found
But there are other things to work on - that, given the number of people who have decided that I'm "not worth it," maybe there is truth in that and things to look at and improve on.

I really don't post a lot but do read here on this site.

Can I say Donna that that statement spoke to me because that has been my thoughts also... but I have come to this reasoning that as a young child I was conditioned to expect less from everyone that entered into my life and that I let that belief guide me to people that treated me in the way that I expected to be treated.

WOW Mamamo......that was an excellent way of putting it. Same experience here. I was taught to expect other people to treat me with total disregard to my feelings so I never expected much of anyone. The way you put that really opened my eyes. Thanks.

Donna sweetie....how was Halloween for ya?

How to move forward?

1) Really, really, really give up trying to be right. It is really OK if you were wrong. It is really OK if you are two people who should have gotten D.

2) Accept this: Accepting that I am better off with my M being over does NOT mean that I didn't love H, nor that he didn't love me. Our M worked for awhile, and then it didn't work.

3) Stop waiting in the wings. Imagine yourself sitting outside XH's new house in a car, waiting just in case he decides to come out and say hi. Pretty disprespectful, pretty stalkerlike, pretty bad way to treat yourself. The idea turns your stomach a bit, no? But, this is exactly what you are doing to yourself. It doesn't matter if you are physically present, emotionally, you are sitting on the curb. Stay there, and you'll just keep getting run over. You have much better ways to spend your life :-)

4) DUMP your X-family. You seem to keep wanting to prove something to yourself by hanging onto them. Guess what? THEY AREN'T YOUR FAMILY. They are going to live in a way that makes them comfortable as a family that includes your XH. This is not going to be a family that includes you as a member. Quit taking it personally. Quit waiting for them to be something they are not. They are not your family, they never will be. It is unhealthy for you to continue to expect them to treat you as a family member. They won't. You aren't.

5) Do a whole lot more to get a life a a single woman. Make sure you are sexually satisfied. Make sure you are getting out as an adult in ways that have nothing to do with being a mother or family member. When you date, expect very nearly all of your dates to go badly and most Rs to end. This is NORMAL and says nothing about you. To expect otherwise is unrealistic. That's why we have to date to begin with, lol.

Just got my kids back from the weekend last night. We were all tired and got to bed pretty early. They had a good time and brought home lots of candy.

I didn't get all tied up with not being able to see them on Halloween - helped that I was busy. I went to a scarf-dying event and had a chance to get very creative. Brought a friend from school with me. We went out afterwards for lunch. I went home and took a nap (the best on rainy days!), then got up and met a friend for a movie (ZombieLand). Stopped to shop a little, then home for some more scary movies. I talked with the kids for a quick minute in the middle of all that - they were on their way out to get candy, so just said a quick Goodnight.

Yesterday, went to church early to finish the scarves. Also had to change out the altar decorations (there is some other fancy word that I can't remember!). Had fun being creative again, and got loads of compliments afterwards. It is still weird to be climbing around on the altar.
Had a chance to catch up with another mom who went through her D around the same time - she is still having lots of problems with her x and her S10, and she has much more open resentment toward her x that she shares with her S. Made me realize that, while I am still struggling with it, I am aware and trying very hard, doing a pretty good job most of the time.

More shopping, another nap, straightened the house, spoke with my old college friend...weekend over!
*******

I went back and read the last few pages here...

I wonder, am I still "hung up" on x, and that is why I have such issues with gf being in my kids' lives?
I don't think so. He is who he has proven himself to be, and as long as I keep re-reading the "complaint" list I made about him and our marriage, I know that I am better off without him.
(I was thinking about this - x was such a huge part of my life for more than 20 years, seems that I have to wait for cell turn-over to get him "out of my system!" So, I will keep reading my list to keep those rose-colored glasses the he11 off my face!)

But the thing with gf doesn't seem to be as directly related. She can have him. I don't care what he does with her when they are together. I am bothered by her time with my children...I think it may be because we were also "friends," and she betrayed me directly.

Again, I realize how completely beyond my control this is, and that I have to come to terms with it.
I don't feel like I am sitting on x's curb, waiting for him to come home. But I was also late to the anger and blame party - hope to blow through it as quickly as I can, knowing that it only goes to hurt me and build my resentment. Neither of them could care less if I'm angry (actually adds fuel to their self-righteousness fire).

OT, x's family are officially dumped. I came to the same conclusions you outlined, and I'm ok with it.
The R I have with his parents has transformed to friends - I thanked her for the invitation to Thanksgiving, but said that I had made plans.
I tell you, going through all I've had certainly puts things into perspective. Loosing his family, while not a happy thing, is definitely much easier to get over.

My single life - well, I outlined what I did for the weekend at the beginning of this post. I think the big thing missing is dating, so may look to add that in, in the not-too-distant future. Funny - the one area I can think of to look at examples of adult dating is at Seinfeld. Wonder where those people met all those dates?

As for other single-Donna things:
Zumba on Wednesdays
church - Spirituality discussion 2x/month
Altar decorating
Sunday school teacher
Board of Directors for local Preschool
Full-time Art teacher, mentor to new teachers
I'll be running a 5-week program after school at a local modern art museum with kids this month, too
Building some new friendships with other singles - all my other friends are married, and we don't hang out like I used to (awkward third-wheel thing? IDK...)
Taking control of my house (again/still!!) - using FlyLady to build up routines and get things on autopilot.

Got back onto EHarmony...we'll see if anything comes of that. I still look at POF from time to time.

Might get doggie into obedience classes on Saturdays.
Will be looking at joining a gym / taking dance lessons after the first of the year.

So, things seem to have settled again for me, emotionally. Hope it was just another "click" moment on my journey.

Thanks again, friends

OT, I like the way you say things. I can agree wholeheartedly with most everything you just said above. Item 5 gives me a little trouble as I would imagine it probably does Donna, but in time that might change. Who knows!

What have you done just for you lately Donna?

mish, did we cross-post?

I'm doing good!

Yep, we did! You sound incredibly busy!!!!!! WOW! Sounds like loads of fun and interesting things to do Donna. I'm quite proud of you.

Yep, pretty busy.

A bit pissy tonight.

I was looking forward to a nice dinner with the kids, then talking about what holiday traditions/activities they wanted to repeat/add/drop. I am trying to follow Flylady and cruising through the holidays so I don't get all overwhelmed.

Sounds good, right? S14 had other ideas. He was grumpy and tired from watching the ball game the night before. Just miserable. I should never have caved, and he is not watching it tomorrow. Too tired to do anything I asked him, just stuck his face into the computer for a few hours (I HATE farmville!)
Neither of them would eat the roast beef.
D10 was better but distracted with beading and making up songs. So, I planned some things myself while we sat together at the table.

And having to work around holidays is just sucky. I keep telling myself that they are only numbers on a calendar - we can have our holiday any day we want. That helps a bit. But it was lopsided this year, anyway. Still not sure how he ended up with Easter, July 4th, Halloween, Thanksgiving and New Year's Eve this year. But my big thing is having the kids wake up here for Christmas morning (D still wants to believe in Santa, and its probably the last year).

Just a crappy end to a crappy day...we had all-day PD at school, with more than 2 hours wasted and then another 4 frustrating as we tried to write curriculum. Blech.

All that makes me look around at all that has to be done, then woe-is-me wants to slide in that I have to do it all alone, beating myself up for not having it all done, etc. Nipped that in the bud, but know that it comes out when my mood goes down.

Bed early - some days are just good to bring to a close sooner rather than later.

Yeah, the shorter days have me feeling run-down too. I crawled into bed pretty early last night.

Something about snuggling down under the covers and pretending the world doesn't exist helps.

Hope today is 1000 times better!

I'm skipping Zumba again tonight - second time in a row. Wed is the only night that I can stay late for work, and there is always something needing to be done. I need to keep on top of things there, especially, make a good impression. On a brighter note, my old friend is coming up for the weekend, so there is something to look forward to (and clean for).

I had a great weekend, even if I had to curtail things a bit (D10's cough developed into a low fever, so I didn't go to the comedy club). My friend did stay over, though, and surprised me by setting up my sunroom a new way. I love it, and it was just the kick-in-the-a$$ I needed to finish the room up. I ordered a rug, energy-saving curtains and chair slipcovers. I can't wait to wrap it up!

Other than that, I find myself....restless, bored maybe. Can't tell what this is, exactly. I am still working on my career and getting routines in place for the house. My kids are doing really well, for the most part. Life has settled.
I had a rare sad moment this weekend over something stupid: leaves. Over the last week, my giant oak tree dropped all of its leaves overnight, obliterating the yard. The task looked HUGE! I went to the power equipment store to see about getting a bagger. Now, the price floored me - $425!! And there I was, surrounded by that smell, axes, tools...and I remembered x. The first time I saw him, he was carrying a tree (yes, a tree), and then chopping fire wood. My lumberjack.
Now, I had to do it myself, and it was damn expensive! And not my job (um, yes it is, I know). Anyway, minor pity-party for about 1/2 hour, thinking how he was now chopping wood for another house, another home, a different family, a different reality.
Blech. Shook that off. I think there will be flashes of that, twinges over what was. But...

I didn't get STUCK. How things have changed!

Anyway, that was yesterday. Today, I am...restless.

I think I need a date.

The time considerations are daunting. Only 2 Fri/Sat nights a month.
And the TIME...to think of getting to know someone, put up with their sh!t...maybe I am already becoming too set in my ways! My standards are set way-high, and I haven't even been out with anyone since....wow, last year this time, I think?
Well, I know that I'm not going to meet anyone at work (elementary schools don't have lots of chances to mingle with anyone of age!). No guys at Zumba or church. So, back to the internet.
I weed people out mercilessly. SO many can't even be bothered putting some effort into their initial impression. Typos? Next. Bad pics or cut-out women next to them? Next. Smokers? Next. Can't write more than, "Yo, babe, your pretty!" with dancing bananas? Next.

Where are all the normal people?

Hi Donna,

Sounds like you're ready to give it another go. When I REALLY wanted to meet Mr Right - I met everyone but him. When I just talked to someone like a friend - he turned out to be "THE ONE". Keep your standards high. I could not imagine wasting one of my precious evenings to go out with someone who wasn't a real possibility. And yes - I did this online.

I did not think I would ever want to date again. I did not think I would ever find the right man. I was sure it would work out for everyone else but NOT ME! But the truth is - I put forth some effort, took every precaution and gave it a shot. Today I am happier than ever before.

You sound great. And normal. And I wish you all the best.

Barb

This is a fun book: http://www.amazon.com/Blink-Power-Thinking-Without/dp/0316172324

And, it suggests that your first online impressions are probably worth taking seriously, lol.

P.S. There really is a point at which making one's present life about the past just becomes *tedious*. I mean REALLY tedious and boring. Maybe you are reaching that point :-)

Donna...I pay my kids to rake...
sometimes in movies or games or whatever

my parents do too
their yard is an acre

win win

they get a game they want
i get a raked yard

My S14 went with me to look at the bagger - he was astounded at the price. He came home and worked over the weekend to get it all cleaned up. There is still some to do, but no where as intimidating as it first looked. He had his friend come and keep him company on Sunday, too. So, I took the "crew" out to the china buffet as a reward - about $50 for all 4 of us to eat, verses $425 for bagger!

Now, if only he could be so motivated about his room...

Ahhh Donna - it is a start. Good for your son! And good for you for appreciating his hard work.

I am overwhelmed with work too. Like a very messy garage with no room to park the van. But yesterday I decided to do it while it was still warm. Once started - it didn't really take that much time. And now I did an even better job than planned and have lots of room in there. YEAH!

Creative solutions and reality checks are great motivators!

Barb

Great idea taking him to actually see the enormous cost of the bagger! Chinese buffet would probably have had my son using his whole body to get those leaves in the bags! His favorite!

Of course, I have a mulching mower so we just run over all the leaves and let the soil have them back.

It's POURING rain here today thanks to what is left of Ida. Yuck! I wish this were a normal Tuesday and I were off. Alas, one of the girls is off on vacation today so I had to come in. It's perfect stay in bed, curled up with a book and a hot cup of tea weather.

Oooh. A mulching mower. I might have to get one of those if I am able to buy a house soon. That's a great idea!

Especially since I don't have any kids to bribe with food to clean the yard lol.

You probably could use a sprinkler to dispense gasoline throughout the yard. Then just one strike of the match and the leaves are gone. And you might even make the evening news.

Donna,
you are lucky to have trees in your yard

K

My whole backyard is shade except in the winter when the leaves are gone. I gave up a long time ago on trying to keep moss out of my lawn. I actually embrace the moss now. I just wish the leaves would all come down in a week.

I actually love my yard - lots of trees, and I'd like to plant more. Maple, Japanese Maple, oak, ash, sassafrass, pear, HUGE pines, cedar, northern magnolia, dogwood, plum...we mulch the grass (its not quite an acre), but the oak leaves are terrible - like cardboard! And I think it is the tallest tree in the yard. The front yard is lined with forsynthia bushes, which look very nice when trimmed (and bloom a bright yellow early in the spring) - but they grow like weeds and have to be trimmed 3x/year; an expensive job. Hope son has a growth-spurt soon, so he can reach!
I don't have so much moss, as this flat plantain-stuff. The dogs running around and the shade make the grass wither (although I try every year with seed!) Hey - it's green! 'Nuff said.

Kerry - I will keep your Plan B in the back of my head, though. I was tempted when I started to realize how much work the house needed!

Met up with a woman who used to work with me, yesterday - did some catching up. She went through a nasty divorce from an abusive man, about a year before my bomb.
She has a great job, now, making more money. I teach her kids, and they are doing pretty well. She has been dating a guy for about a year.
I told her that looking at the schedule, things seem so daunting to get back out there.
She said that she went on a TON of first dates, not many second ones. Keep the standards high -
it is definitely different this time around! A new person has to prove their worth to you, bend and be flexible to fit in around an already-established life. The kids, other established relationships, come first.
But, she is happy. They don't see each other too often, but he is a good man, and she can look back and see how messed up her first marriage was, now.

I hope to find the same

Met up with yet another IRL woman who went through her D just before mine. She and her kids are doing fine, she is newly married and gets to stay at home with her kids. Her new H is a bodyguard for a major band (she offered to get me free tickets the next time they are local).
Funny to run into these two people in the same week.

*********
Recovering from a cold (same virus my D went through; at least it's not the flu). Lots of time in bed, then 8 hours at the church bazaar. Watching some tv...

I hate tv commercials for jewelry this time of year - bastard advertising executives! I mean, it's just shiny rocks!! How do they DO that?!

I have plans to sell my old engagement ring to take a trip to Italy next year, anyway!

I wish my engagement ring were worth enough to get me to Italy!!!

I know what you mean about the jewelry commercials. TV, radio....UGH! I hate that! Heck, I hate seeing happy couples walking hand in hand too so it all pretty much bites.

AJ gave my old engagement ring to his new girlfriend!!!

Yikes...

she can have it

although I may have clocked her if it were wortha trip to Italy...as it was, I may have been able to get a pack of fruit stiped gum with it so I let her keep it!!!

it turned my finger green anyway!!!

yeah, that's a dilemna I still have. There isnt' much left from "our stuff" but I have my wedding ring and anniversary ring. The two are similar in design, and wonder it giving them to the boys later on in life is the right thing to do. I always heard rings from a broken marriage are cursed?

Gold is demanding the highest price ever right now....

I know, my retirement fund is looking really good right now thanks to precious metals.

I should dig through my jewelry box and see if I can gather enough to sell.

OK, diving into the deep end for a bit...

I am sick. Hate being sick. I didn't have the kids this weekend, so overindulged myself and slept, watched tv.
Kids came home. D10 has had a fever all weekend, so she isn't going to school again tomorrow. I checked mine, and have a fever, too. So we'll both be home. Not good - my 5th sick day already this school year.

Thanks to a ridiculously long nap, I am awake now. I was laying in my bed, and the thoughts came (never a good scenario).

I wonder if I can do this. Life, I mean, on my own. I am starting to get overwhelmed again.

I look around at my house, and there are things out all over. Three boxes of paperwork to go through in the living room. More on the kitchen island. The floors need to be vacuumed and washed. Forget the state of my room and my bathroom, and the kids rooms are out of control again, too.
I always struggled with housework. I read Flylady a lot, and I know what I have to do. But again, I overindulge myself. I can't get started on anything, can't make it match the picture in my head of how things should be, frustrated with myself that such a simple thing as keeping house should be hard for me. Holidays loom.
The Inner Princess takes over a lot. And the poor-mes. And the perfectionism. And the distractiveness (is that even a word?)

There are projects at work that aren't getting done. Important ones. I am teaching my classes, but have to submit an order, organize this afterschool thing, get bulletin boards up, finish a fundraiser (that I missed a submission date for already). I put things on a daily to-do list, but they still don't get done.

Excuses. I go home to my kids. But even then, there is time wasted on the computer...so much that the kids have taken notice and mentioned it to me.

But I wonder now if...maybe I just can't do it?

I leaned so much on my ex when he was here....
I know that is a reason he left. I didn't have good boundaries, and expected him to fill in the slack that I left behind.

What if I can't do it on my own? I've never been able to....

self-sabotage? or do I just not have the capacity?

So much needs to be done every day. And every little bit just adds to the pile...I feel like I am getting bare-basics done, but falling farther and farther behind.
And this is the story of my life.
I remember back to 10th grade and being assigned all honors classes for the first time. Things snowballed....I ended up sick with a psychosomatic illness that took me out of school for a few months; I just couldn't keep up with the work. I wasn't used to failing.
Feels like my life is like that right now.

Maybe I'm just not enough of a person.....wow, I know that sounds very strange. Yes, OT, I can see the co-dependence thing.

My IC asked me this week to do some homework - ID what I want to focus on now, now that I'm not just in survive-the-divorce mode.
Do we go back to childhood issues? Or do I want to look at concrete things in the future?

Can I even separate them?

Probably not a good idea to think about dating, hmmm?

I thought I had done so much work...but I am still not making it.
Yes, my kids are ok. But I'm not setting an example of how to keep a home (no, I'm not a Hoarder's show candidate!).

Is life on this scale meant to be lived on your own? So many years of having help...and three years without it finds me still struggling to figure it out.

I think back to my childhood, my mom, checked out but there, an alcoholic....how much of that is in me, even though I don't drink a drop?

Am I genetically at capacity, this is all that I can be? Or is there a way to push past this?

Emailing a copy of this to IC.....

WOW DONNA! If you figure out any answers to any of those questions please let me know. You could be speaking all the thoughts that are in my head too. Have you been in my head? Not a pretty place to be!!!

Get some ADD meds, and read some ADD books. Quit beating yourself up.

Just my $.02, but I think you just need to get out and take a break, seriously, one night of 'the heck with it all'. I did that Saturday after having a terrible afternoon and evening Friday in lght of an issue with S11. Got a bulk of things done Saturday and then said, the heck with it, I am taking some me time and spending money I don't really have, but it needs to be done.

And it worked, even after more disturbing things from the kids yesterday and insight to another round of crap with XW, I feel good and am ready to tte week's challenges with stride.

Hi Donna,

We are all wired differently. We all deal with things differently. But we are all overwhelmed at times.

I think the ADs are in order, don't you. Never been on them but know many who they've helped.

But when I'm overwhelmed (divorce, sudden job loss, parenting Ryan - severely disabled individual) - I make a TO DO list. Yes - with everything on it. Then I start biting it off it little, manageable pieces. And sometimes it seems I will never get through it all. But I do. Because little things do add up to big progress.

Don't become a self fullfilling prophecy. Of course you will do this. Of course you will go on. Because you CAN!

Would you rather have my life? Not talking about the vacations etc - I try to MAKE my life fun. Truth is - my life is also fraught with many many problems. More than most people could handle.

Seriously - this is NOT about me. Just saying - everyone has STUFF. Lots of stuff. Overwhelming stuff at times. But life is often about how you handle your stuff.

And you only have to live one day at a time.

Hang in there.

Barb

The kids and I are sick today with colds; I guess it's the season. Yuck! Hope you feel better soon!

I feel like that too sometimes. I have a to-do list on my computer and sometimes stuff is on there way too long, but then I have a day sometimes where I actually do half the list or whatever, and it feels great. I figure with all we've been going through, if we get out of bed, we've done good.

My advice would be to get your kids involved. I do a chore list and have my 2 do a few chores a day. I let them pick some chores (depending on how much time they have)and then I do the rest. I think it's great for the kids; when I have the kids doing dishes now, they don't use 500 glasses anymore, when they're responsible for doing dishes they realize they're making more work for themselves so that helps with them making less mess.

I think you need to cut yourself some slack. Sometimes when we get sick, I think it's our bodies way of forcing us to get some rest!!! And don't forget the liquids & chicken soup.

Donna,

Being sick makes everything seem worse. Give yourself a break...that may be 50% of why you feel the way you do now.

Ok -- the endless to do lists. The tyrrany of the urgent. In Steven Covey's terms, the pressing but not terribly important things.

Try a desire list. I'm not saying get rid of your to do list. How about focusing for a while on what you want/need? I personally find that really hard to do. I also think it's a good barometer for depression. I've been surprised that a little exercize and a healthy diet has made me more of a window shopper. I know this sounds mundane, but Hoosier, a person on DB, noted, at that this stage I am the mission. The small things are not so small. Small acts of taking care of myself have tended to energize me in the direction of reaching out to others, being a better steward of my appearance, and even takin a bite out of that to do list. Your desire for a whole and flourishing life often starts with desires for small things: a new pair of socks, a new pair of shoes, not feeling winded when climbing a flight of stairs, getting rid of knee pain, etc.

Maybe re-sparking your desire will help. Desire first, to-do lists second.

Definiely work with your counselor on the future and positive change. This will probably entail de-connstucting the negative thought patterns absorbed from childhood.

--Theoden

Thanks, all.
I re-read this, and I know it sounds like I am in the bowels of depression, again - surprisingly, I'm not. I think it was more observation, problem-solving...
rather than feeling stuck and frustrated, I am refocusing on what to do about it.

I am getting back to basics, going back to some of the work I've done in the past (CBT stuff).
I refuse to get derailed again...

Donna,

There's a great CBT-based book, Authentic Happiness, with a lot of practical guides to disputing negative thought patterns.

In addition, he talks about activities that actually create "flow" in our lives, and build from our strengths. CBT, he points out, is great at getting us from -5 to level ground. But, what about getting people from 0 to +5? His point is that a new science, positive psychology, needs to bridge the gap from curing depression to actually flourishing and becoming happy. Great book.

Oh yes...and try desire lists. See if that works for you.

--Theoden

"Reinventing your Life" is another great CBT book, with fun exercises. It talks about lifetraps, various ways in which people get stuck.

But, don't forget the ADD stuff. Did you ever try meds for it? ADD tends to get worse with age...
http://www.estronaut.com/a/women_attention_deficit.htm
And, if you haven't read it: You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?! A Self-Help Book for Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder

Originally Posted By: oldtimer

You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?! A Self-Help Book for Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder

That one's on my bookshelf! I keep getting distracted.....

I'll look into those titles...I can't believe how accurate that link was!! I know we've talked about ADD being a possibility, and I think my IC has just been trying to address it in a round-about way, but this cut through everything that I have been experiencing!
I'm weaning off the effexor (on the lowest dose and hope to be finished in Jan). I don't love the idea of meds for ADD, though...while I have seen how effective they can be for some of the out-of-control boys in my teaching, I have also seen lots of kids who just seem overmedicated. It scares me....it's like they don't have any light in them. I'll talk about it, though.

The idea of having a secretary is nice, though!

If I was a rock star, I could just have a personal assistant! Maybe a cleaning service would be a good start...

I've been on ADD meds, adderall certainly does NOT make one's eye's glaze over. Moreover, you don't have to wait for it to accumulate in your system. It works right away (if you have the right dose.) And, you don't have to wean off. You can use it when you want and it's effective. If you really have ADD, it will make a huge difference quickly and will not make you jumpy. You'll all of the sudden have patience, lol. Maybe it is the stuff they use for the H in ADHD that zombies them, dunno.

Other resources:

Book "Delivered from Distraction" Ned Hallowell MD.

Website: Hallowell Connections http://www.drhallowell.com

and his related site "Crazy Busy" (Premise that anyone who is overdriven in our crazy world will begin to show ADD).

Website: http://www.additudemag.com/

And recommended by my pdoc; a smartphone! Yes, an iPhone, or the like can be a lifesaver. All the appointments, names, numbers, lists, alarms, reminders, etc. keep life on track. However it can be misused too and become a bigger distraction. Know when to turn it off or ignore it.

The kids and I stayed home sick again. I am starting to feel better, but I am going to use this opportunity to catch up and prioritize a bit.

Meanwhile, x texted son on and off all day, checking on the kids, fevers, etc. He told him that he was going to cook the three of us dinner and drop it off (!)

WTF?! NOW?!

S tried to tell his dad that we already took chicken out and we were set. He sent back, "Let me do this."

Nothing when I had my appendix out. Nothing.
But because the kids are sick, too?

I don't know. I don't want it, that I do know.

Hey, at least I found my kick-in-the-butt...I had been picking away at the house all day before that text. Now, the floors are vacuumed and washed, boxes are put into storage so they aren't out, new slipcovers on LR chairs, sink empty, laundry gathered...

Is this guilt? NOW?

"I don't know. I don't want it, that I do know."

So, why allow it? "Sorry, that doesn't work for me." Or, are you OK with it after all?

As to why? Maybe he is simply trying to be a decent parent and help out when the kids are sick and you are sick. It is a sign that he feels enough space from you and little enough pressure/blame that he is now able to do something nice.

So, shooting down his generosity will take a step backward from that place, probably. Because it would be about blame and anger. This is OK, just thought I'd point it out.

Remember, this stuff is YOUR CHOICE. You don't have to accept dinner from anyone in your own house if you don't want to.

Originally Posted By: Virtually_Handsome

Originally Posted By: oldtimer

You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?! A Self-Help Book for Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder

That one's on my bookshelf! I keep getting distracted.....

I hope not to offend, but I recently saw two clever Tee shirts:

1) "I've been told I have ADD, Look! A rabbit!"

2) "Dyslexics of the world, UNTIE!"

Sorry if hijack in poor taste, but hey...we've joked about worse around here.

He actually called me - said he wasn't trying to start WWIII with this.

I asked him, Why now? Nothing when I had my appendix out, nothing when I really needed someone...I've been on my own for years. He said he couldn't be there, then. He just wanted to move forward.
He said he was just trying to do something nice. I said yeah, that always made you feel good about yourself.
I just cut it short, said whatever, if you want to drop something off for the kids, that's fine. It is nice.

I'm sure this says something about me, that I am not highly evolved or whatever. That we would never have had a chance of getting back from this place, after all.

But he has made his choice. And I have been hurt so much...

Never thought that the two of us would ever end up like this.

Yes, he is trying to feel good about himself. Cuz even if he won't really admit it, I bet he felt guilty about not helping out when you were sick, even if he won't admit it.

So he's trying to make up for it now in a way that's safe - the kids. In a way that will generate no expectations from you other than he can be good father.

(((Donna)))

There's no point in fighting about it. It solves nothing. Let him do something nice for the kids, and let yourself grieve the fact that he doesn't do those things for you without putting them in the middle.

Read this never or when you feel better....

-----
Oh, you know, I say BS. MAYBE he is doing it out of guilt. Or MORE LIKELY he is just trying to be a nice guy. Without signs of his homelife falling a part and frequent reaching out to you for no reason at all, I'd say he is doing it to be nice.

YOU are the one making it about the past. The LBSs seem to want everything to be about the past and guilt. But truthfully,probably, it is not about the past, it is not even so much about YOU. The primary caretaker of his children and children are all sick. Bringing by dinner simply makes sense to a decent person.

I really wish you could resist the urge to make this all about YOU and indulging your victim rant. I'd bet a whole lot that XH was starting to feel that there was a decent amount of space building. You just closed that space by making his choices about you. Look, it would have been INAPROPRIATE for XH to take care of you with respect to the appendicitis. XH could NOT rescue you from your depression, he was the cause of it. Acting like your H would have been the WRONG thing for him to do. When those things happened, he was VERY clear that he was emotionally D and committed to legal D. You are not entitled to have someone play the role of rescuer/nurturer in your life who does not want to play that role. Let go of the tired victim narrative.

I know you are sick. But basically he did something decent, and you went back to rehearsing all your old crap for him. This is not the way to move forward. Your reaction also shows your co-dependence -- why are you so motivated to clean the house for HIM?

I'm D and my H is D. My XH is OK. His XW is a bit better now, but for a LONG time she made EVERYTHING about her and the past. As a result, he pretty much cut off all contact with her and they parent their adult children VERY separately. It really is not possible for him to have a decent post-D R with her because she very egocentrically continued to personalize everything and demonize him for far too long. You don't have claims on him. His life and choices are not about you. Does he think about you and care about you? Certainly. But this does not make his choices about you or your PAST R or guilt.

If you can't make room to move forward acting decently to each other right now, that is fine. But, then it is time to go back to near full darkness. Acting out at him is not going to get you anywhere that you want to go, and the animosity it creates is not good for you or the kids.

Finally, notice how you let him bait you. Were you fighting BEFORE he said: look I don't want this to be WWIII. Or, did you let those words rope you into a fight? There is no need to fight if you don't want him to bring dinner to your house.

Donna: "Thanks for the offer, but that doesn't work for me."
XH: "I don't want this to be WWIII"
Donna: "Lol, me neither. No need to fight. Thanks again, but I'll work out dinner on this end myself. Bye!"

P.S. Well, too late to edit. The thing is, continuing to try to make XH's actions about you and your past keeps you stuck, feeling like a victim, looking backwards. It also keeps you co-dependent, making his choices about you, what his actions mean about you, etc... This is not what you need and it is an inaccurate way of viewing the world. You HAD your past, now is the time to LIVE well in the present.

I'm hearing you on this and came to similar conclusions. He has said in the past that he wishes we could be friends, that I would accept him as he is, not as I want him to be. For now, I choose not to. I don't want to be friends. I can't pretend that everything that happened, everything he said and did, doesn't matter.

I didn't clean the house for him (he wouldn't come in, and I knew that- he called S on his cell phone and the kids met him in the drive, which is usual.)
I cleaned the house because it had to be done, and I am on my own, and I have to be able to do this.

You know, I miss my old self. Three years ago (down to just a few days), I was a happy person. I was stressed out sometimes, but other than that, happy.

Now, everything is a struggle. Yes, it is greatly improved since the initial days of the bomb and the craziness I sank into.

But I am sitting here, yet again, crying.

Over my x being nice to me.

I am so angry at myself. I want to be normal again.
I want that state of grace.

But I also want him to just go away. It hurts. It still hurts.

I don't want him to be that man who I loved so much for so long, but who now wants to be with someone else, and relegate me to "friend" status.

I don't want to admit that he is still a good man capable of decency.

And I am weak. And I am messed up, still trying to become a better person.

I don't want to turn into a mess all the time - I am sick of it! How many years can you spend crying?

My head, my thoughts are swirling.

I don't know if I will ever completely recover from all this.

(((((Donna)))))

You will recover. You will be different, but better, in the end. Be patient with yourself.

Quote:

I am so angry at myself. I want to be normal again.
I want that state of grace.

But I also want him to just go away. It hurts. It still hurts.

Totally understandable. It's an honest emotion but it's good that you realize that it's not a healthy emotion.

Keep working on yourself. Keep focusing on what you need to do to get your emotional health in order.

Oh Donna, I don't really believe that being post-D "friends" is good for very many people at all.

Nothing at all wrong with sticking to business. Nothing at all wrong with saying, "Gee, that is thoughtful. But no thanks, I'm not comfortable with that."

It is NORMAL. What is ABNORMAL is being "friends" with people who treated you the way XH and his GF treated you. No need to push there. Gaining some compassion and understanding WILL help YOU. But that doesn't mean either should or will lead to friendship.

But DO work on your boundaries. If you want to limit contact, fine. But be clear and straightforward about it. "XH, let's just stick to a civil business associates R for now. I'm not interested in friendship at this point." Don't go back to trying to extract whatever it is you want from him from the past. Whatever path you choose moving forward, just remember: YOUR CHOICE.

So much for him doing a "nice" thing. I cried for more than an hour last night (two maybe?), and now my already-sore-from-being-sick head feels like it's been through a meat grinder.

I'm sure he is completely baffled that I didn't want to accept gratiously, and would be baffled to know the effect he still has on me (why isn't she over it yet? he11, he was able to get over 20+ years pretty quick...)

He has what he wanted...what does he really want and expect of me? I am not made of rock, and I am not a saint.

I know now that any future gesture he makes like this will be greeted with a Thanks but no thanks. I'm not setting myself up for another night like last night.

Donna, he has never once thought of the 20+ years and when he does eventually get around to it he will be a bit of a mess too. But this isn't about him, it is about you. Don't get me wrong there are moments I get upset that he threw this all away but do I really want the POS he has become? Heck no!!

You get a do over a chance to change, a chance to do things you maybe only dreamed about but he didn't like. Look towards the possibilities and what steps you need to take to make them happen. It is a slow process and I think that is so we get it right. No need to rush. Afterall this is our lives we are talking about.

Sometimes I think you see your ex as a sort of security object but hon, he isn't that anymore. He shook you to the core. Put him away. You will deal with the memories when they aren't so painful.

hugs, kat

Donna, being friends with the ex is difficult. I know people who, like yourself, try it and get taken advantage of. It often ends negatively. It'a a tough line because you want to be mature and show the children how adults SHOULD handle difficult times but again, like a marriage, it takes two people with similar goals in mind. My STBX and myself get along pretty well and both of us have similar mind sets as to what we want from it. That said, I don't call her "just to chat" or anything like that. We do spend "family" occassions together and we both know if one of us needs something the other will help out. We're pretty lucky that way, for many it doesn't work out. Btw, just because your ex isn't showing any pain doesn't mean there isn't any. People act out their pain and guilt etc in different ways and if they don't in the long run suffer big time. You feel your pain and heal, that's the way to go! Feel better

Journaling -

I was able to get an early appt with the IC today, so I'll go. I was SO hoping/thinking that I was past this urgent stuff...

I think I have blocked a lot of it out, but I know that I cried a lot as a child. Probably daily. At first, it was about neighborhood kids who would tease me because I was an easy target; I cared what they thought, a people-pleaser. I was used a lot. Often left when someone / something more exciting came along.
Then I developed an interest in boys in fourth grade or so. Would dream about so-and-so in class liking me - again, it mattered to me. Of course, they were too busy for nonsense like that! And I was not one of the pretty/popular girls. I would turn myself inside out, trying to be someone they might like, never even talking to them about it, just crush after crush, home to cry everyday that "he" didn't see me.
That went on for years...
My sister was born when I was in 5th grade, which complicated things (I was a main caretaker). I had to be home. There was no such thing as being driven somewhere for a playdate (before or after she was born).

I got close once...a boy down the street and I developed a really close friendship. I was head-over-heels, but he was oblivious. I was happy to just hang out with him most days after school, do homework, watch tv. He taught me to bowl. Lasted about 4 months.
Until the Monday he told me about the great weekend he had with this other girl - they had gotten drunk and had a snowball fight with no shoes on. (I was always seen as the goody-goody, never even invited to parties my friends from school would have...still not sure why, but it just didn't happen).

I think that was when I decided that I would be alone forever, and to just get used to the idea. No more crying, no more crushes or hopeful anticipation / expectations.
I met my x only a few months later. And everything, everything changed.
********

I find myself back to square one, only this time it is worse. I know what love is like, and what I lost and is no longer have. I am grateful for the time I had, but still...

*********
X as a security blanket...
I think that he was more than that to me. He was so many things to me. Yes, I know it is unhealthy. He filled in the pieces of a broken girl and that relationship held me together for more than 20 years.

Now, I have been shattered, and I'm not sure if I can build those pieces myself after so long. I guess I will just keep on trying - what else is there to do?

Just look how far you have come from where you were when he left. You stand on your own two feet, you work hard, you have friends who love you, and most of all.....you are learning to love yourself.

What more is there really?

You can't expect a shattered life to be repaired in a matter of just a couple of years. It will take long term work and soul searching. There are days that overwhelm but they are so much less than they were.

Donna,

I don't know everything about your sitch but I do know that trying to figure out what life is all about post-d is difficult.

The friends thing is hard for me to navigate too. I've mentioned it many times on my own thread. The she and I have a cordial relationship and limited exchanges. We stick mostly to business. I feel I'm the one who probably set the boundary. It's tough even when we have a good exchange because it brings up the past and leaves a sad feeling.

So he brought you something when you were sick? That was kind. The she also took care of me for part of a day recently when I had day-surgery on my foot. For the reasons above it was awkward at times. Accept the kindness, be thankful, and don't attach too much to it.

Div is like an injury. But you will heal, you will walk again, you will run and jump again. And at times you will forget it ever happen. Instead of waiting for that day, celebrate the each of those little steps. Stay strong.

WOW Donna,

Your previous post was very telling. It sounds as if you are still carrying a lot of childhood hurt and rejection. Possibly you will need to deal with that before you'll be able to heal from another deep wound that the divorce left you with. I assume your counselor already knows what you've written about here.

I know how hard it is to deal with the end of a marriage where we weren't allowed any choice but that of divorce. It must be much harder to feel as if you never had choices. The great thing now though is that you do. Once you've healed your life is whatever you choose for it to be.

I don't know your whole story but I think I've read enough to know that you have a lot going for you and that you have a lot to give. At some point we all have to take control of our lives and prove to those that have hurt and dismissed us wrong. Besides, you've already come through the tough stuff and you're still standing!

dsm

Glad you have a C appt to talk some of this stuff though.

That's a lot to deal with.

Even for someone with no real self-esteem or abandonment issues, D is a horrible, shattering experience. It takes time to pick up the pieces, and it never happens as fast as we want it to.

Hang in there.

Quote:

Oh Donna, I don't really believe that being post-D "friends" is good for very many people at all.
It is NORMAL. What is ABNORMAL is being "friends" with people who treated you the way XH and his GF treated you. No need to push there. Gaining some compassion and understanding WILL help YOU. But that doesn't mean either should or will lead to friendship.

I am so glad to see you say that. That is something I think about also, because I am very much like Donna. I can't be friends with my X or the new Mrs. X. There was way too much nastiness. But I occasionally worry if I am wrong in not being friends, so many people seem to think it is the norm.

I look at it this way. My friends are people who I respect and trust, and they respect and trust me. X and Mrs. X neither respect or trust me, and have done nothing that I would consider an act of friendship. And their actions have proven that I cannot trust them and I certainly don't respect them....so by definition they can't be my friends. I do best if interactions are primarily through e-mail...no emotions involved.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong there are moments I get upset that he threw this all away but do I really want the POS he has become? Heck no!!

Well said!!!!!!!

You are bruised, not broken. Dont make yourself believe you are broken. Grief and sadness come like waves. Anything can trigger them coming back viciously. Dont be scared. You've been thru alot and you have done well.

Give yourself credit Donna, dont let your emotions rule you. You just hit a low. There is only one way to go now, up.
hugs
K

Donna and Bright,

Originally Posted By: bright_new_day

I look at it this way. My friends are people who I respect and trust, and they respect and trust me. X and Mrs. X neither respect or trust me, and have done nothing that I would consider an act of friendship. And their actions have proven that I cannot trust them and I certainly don't respect them....so by definition they can't be my friends. I do best if interactions are primarily through e-mail...no emotions involved.

Hi, been lurking and this caught my eye.
I was asked by someone about the possibility of being "friends" with STBXW recently (by a friend, not by her). I replied, "Nope. No can do. I look at it this way: if any friend demonstrated - proved - to me that their word, promise, commitment (let alone vow) was meaningless, worthless, then I would consider that proof-positive that that person ceased to be my friend at that point. And I certainly would no longer be their friend."
And my sitch doesn't even involve infidelity.
So, friendly? Yes when necessary for kids' and stepkids' sake & appearances.
Friend? No way.

my $,02 butting in.

Good insights. Interesting that when you quit looking for someone to make you whole is when you first met XH. It was a step toward independence and responsibility for your own happiness that perhaps opened the door to that R. The good news is that you took that step once, so you can certainly take it again. You are in a much better position to do so now too :-)

How was C?

Have you thought about going back to Al-anon or ACOA? You have to deal with your old stuff somewhere, and it seemed to be working for you. And, you have to deal with your new stuff somewhere. Working through the perceived betrayal with your old sponsor might help both of you, and would be more appropriate than continuing to try to work out those feelings with XH.

BTW, have you ever charted these dips? Are they at all hormonal?

Hey Ms. D....

*hugs*

I think that was when I decided that I would be alone forever, and to just get used to the idea. No more crying, no more crushes or hopeful anticipation / expectations.
I met my x only a few months later. And everything, everything changed.

Funny you should write that. Prior to marriage, I'd be on continual crush mode, then get close to a guy and become wacky, needy, out of control emotionally within. I was cute enough, smart and witty enough, caring.. but it always blew up in my face. I decided after the last bout that I would focus on my career, think about thinking about kids in 5 years, finish my MBA and not date. Three weeks later I met Bill. We both instantly fell for each other. He asked me to get married 3 weeks later, kept pushing to run away for the weekend, get hitched then return and then let people know.

Back then I felt like I could not have been luckier to know such an incredible guy.. and he truly was incredible. Now I would question why someone would want to get married so quickly, seeing it as a red flag rather than a 'soul mate' truth.

Maybe it's like going from riding on a raft down a river versus taking an oar and being part of the process.

*hugshugshugs*

Well, my Thanksgiving plans just fell through.

My aunt was going to host in Brooklyn, but one of her daughters just had her second car die (they are not doing well in this economy), so that whole part of the family is going to drive to Jersey to try to cram into her small house. With immediate family only, they still will be very cramped.

They are the only family I have left.

Now, what to do........

all friends are with family. I can call around today if I can find the energy and see if there is a soup kitchen that needs a hand...

May just stay home and continue nesting (been cleaning, catching up, etc.) - there is certainly plenty to do.

Kids are off later this afternoon - x is taking my kids and his new crew down into the city to watch them inflate the balloons (I always wanted to do that, just never happened). Kids will be back with me Friday afternoon, and we are going to our small-town tree-lighting, then back home for a nice ham dinner before they go back with their father for his weekend. I'll go visit my aunt at her house on Saturday.

Transitions....
I never would have guessed that I would have a Thanksgiving alone.

(((((Donna)))))

So many of us are in the same boat. Me included. I can understand how particularly disheartening it must be since you weren't even expecting it. I am sorry.

Perhaps we need to plan a national/international convention of LBS's on certain holidays. Just a thought.

This may not help but you never know. When I was a flight attendant I spent several major holidays with people I didn't know. Then when I was home, I celebrated that major holiday . Afterall it is a day and just because the calendar says this is the day to celebrate, there are many people that end up working and have to celebrate later.

Think of hospital staff, fire fighters, police officers, military, gas station attendants, movie theater attendants and of course flight crews.(There are probably more, just want to get the point across). So maybe do something creative to cheer these folks up and save your family celebration for later.

Happy Thanksgiving Donna.

kat

Look on the bright side. You got the house to yourself! You can stay in your pjs, eat whatever you want whenever you want, watch TV, listen to music, play on the computer. And no one will need anything from you. It's a day totally for you.

Those are really nice sometimes.

Watch sappy Christmas movies, eat ice cream in your Pj's, dance around the house and sing loudly!

Happy Thanksgiving Donna.....make it exactly what you want it to be.

Donna.

Originally Posted By: Donna...Found

Transitions....
I never would have guessed that I would have a Thanksgiving alone.

Where in Connecticut are you? I'll meetcha halfway for a turkey sandwich!

My cousin just called me. She asked me to come to her house for Thanksgiving, after all (not to worry about how small the house is). So, off to Jersey.

I was ok, really....now, I am a bit emotional about it. I will miss my kids more...all my cousin's kids will be there. But I will be with people who love me.

Happy Thanksgiving, Donna.

Happy Thanksgiving!!! Enjoy your family.

I cried hard last night for about 1/2 hour - just grieving (I really did love my prior life). Slept with my D's teddy bear; took a Lunesta to make sure I slept. But didn't wake up sore, no bad dreams. Slight melancholy this morning, but the drive and some good music drove that off, and it was a very good visit.
SO grateful.
Now, can't wait to see my babies tomorrow....

Hope you all had a blessed and reflective Thanksgiving...

Donna,

I thought about you all day. I wanted it to be good for you. I am SO glad that it was fine.

I remember my first Thanksgiving after Chuck left. I went to visit my friends out west (kids went with grandparents). I sobbed through the entire meal. I have come a long way since then. And so will you.

It is ok to grieve. It gets it out. And every occasion gets easier. You already know that.

But I just wanted to let you know that I care. And I understand. And I think you're turning a corner. To a better life.

Trust me....

& Happy Thanksgiving!

Barb

Thank you so much, friends! I was very fortunate to be able to spend time with my family today, especially when I didn't think it was going to happen.

I just got this as my horoscope for today:

Quote:

It's officially time to toss the tissues, stop worrying about the past and put some distance between you and whoever or whatever has been making you feel so blue lately. Come on. You've seen way too much of your living room lately. Your dog is even trying to figure out how to get you out of the house. Go ahead; have some fun. You've put in your time.

Another reminder from the cosmos

Getting out today? Probably not, with the shopping hoardes...except I might go get a massage and manicure before the kids get home! Or save that for tomorrow...

Donna,
are you pisces? Anyway, I am sorry your felt down yesterday. Holidays do that to us.

I agree with Sun, you are turning a corner. It's a bit "tight" of a corner but after that, the way gets easier and easier...
Hugs
M

Donna,

You could have stayed home yesterday too but you didn't - you accepted that invitation and felt much better for it no doubt.

I hate crowds. I avoid them like the plague. I'd rather pay more than battle crowds to get bargains - that's just me.

But the massage and manicure? Now - we're talking. Don't put it off - go for it - you are on a roll!

I love your Horoscope and could have actually written it for you. It is SO true. But it is up to you to do it.

Have a great day!

Barb

No shopping or massage...stupid thing. My big toe hurts. I mean, turn-your-stomach-hurts. My big toe.
Not sure if it is infected or bruised from the boots I wore yesterday. But the pain kept me up most of the night, so I slept in today.
Still got to get some stuff done, set up for dinner.

My ex is an a$$hole. He was going to be out with the kids this morning, and I asked him to drop them off as soon as possible so I could do something with them (we were going to do the town tree-lighting, but the rain changed plans to a movie).
About an hour and a half later than I was hoping they would be home, he called and said they were at his house. He drove right past my house, then sat around for more than a half-hour before calling me. Argghhh.

Went down and got the kids, ended up getting it all in, anyway (saw Old Dogs, and it we all laughed hard). Great dinner the kids helped me with - salad, smoked ham, corn, broccoli, pineapple, mushrooms, sweet and white potatoes, crescent rolls and buschetta bread, sparkling cider. Good china and crystal, candles. In-laws came over, too - very nice night (weird having to drive them back to their father's), just went really fast. Squeezed a whole holiday into 4 hours. Makes me all the more grateful for the time that we do get to spend and connect.

It sounds like a great four hours Donna! Glad you enjoyed

Sounds like everything worked out pretty well!

Other than him making you drive over to get the kids. They really can be stubborn sometimes.

Woke up thinking about the difference between grieving and bitterness...

This whole thing still takes up lots of my mental space, especially at night and dreaming. I'd rather it didn't, since it is all such wasted energy. Maybe it is the holidays...
X did take my kids, his girlfriend and all her kids to see his grandmother over the weekend; 3 out of 4 of his sibs went, too. It is expected, an eventuality. But still hurts to feel so replaced in what was such a big part of my life - these people were my family for more than 20 years, more than half my life.
When my parents were alive, we would visit both houses...then just his side of the family when they passed.
I had been invited to Thanksgiving at grandma's house with my in-laws and three of his sibs...they were sad that I didn't go. Not sure if it was a mistake on my part to not go...but had a wonderful time with my own aunt, cousins and family. Trying to forge new traditions and connections. Am I shooting myself in the foot?

They all just want to "have a nice visit." Seems that only MIL and FIL really get what it is that I went through (and I'm sure that it is only because they live next door and saw it all).
Still struggling to Get Over It. Wish there was some magic formula to Get Over 20+ years....I hear about him, and really wonder how he did it.

I look back and see how awful I was at DBing. Too codependent to leave him alone, give him the space to really think about it and let his moral compass guide him - giving him a tortured, pathetic crying mess to look at, verses a smiling girlfriend, trying to fix him, fix us.

Regret. Sadness. Love, still, even if undeserved. Memories. Pushing forward and trying oh so hard to accept. Futile wishes and lost dreams. Over-analyzing, over-thinking. Haunted by the could-have-beens.

Is this wallowing, or part of my excrutiatingly-long process?

It's little things...we are about to start decorating, and I am dreading the ornament box. I had loved to collect ornaments throughout the year to celebrate milestones, match memories. Too many are about the old Us.
Throw them away? Pack them into the attic? Send some over to him for his tree with his newly-chosen mate?

Puke. I used to love Christmas so much...

I used to think that knowing, understanding, how all this happened would help me either fix it or accept it. It hasn't made a damn bit of difference.

I think it teaches us what not to do next time. Last year at christmas I didn't want to use all the past years ornaments and went really simple. I strug cranberries, used tinsel and bought just a few ornaments. It was a lovely tree.

This year I am even thinking of buying a real tree. the girls have never had one but we used to do that when we first got married. It has been a while. Anyway, I think that is how I will go. This is a time to rebirth yourself and close the door on the past and open another door for the new. Christmas will always be here. time to decide if you are going to give that to your ex or reclaim it for yourself.

Hugs, kat

Quote:

I had loved to collect ornaments throughout the year to celebrate milestones, match memories. Too many are about the old Us.Throw them away? Pack them into the attic? Send some over to him for his tree with his newly-chosen mate?

Give them to charity. Our church thrift store is full of Christmas decorations. That is where I'm sending all of my sentimental ones (except the personalized ones of course - those are going in the trash this year assuming I get any of them down from the attic!

)

Donna, there is a real possibility that you are having a bout of seasonal depression. Who can blame any of us for feeling that way. Being sentimental. Feeling cheated out of something. It's natural, but you know it doesn't have to be that way. It will be what YOU decide you want it to be.

You have all the tools to turn your thoughts around. I know you have learned thought stopping, redirection, framing, all of that in therapy. Use it now. Reverse your thinking and make it about YOU, not about him, them, etc..

Donna, you weren't replaced. There is no one that could ever replace you. He has merely filled a space because he has selfish needs that have to be met for him to feel like a whole person. That has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

Get it? Got it? GOOD!

(((((((((((((((Donna))))))))))))))))))

Yes, of course you did the right thing by having Thanksgiving with your own peeps.

Look, you shouldn't be more into the R with the EX-in-laws than they are. When X is available, you won't be invited. You are effectively Plan B. As X's GF is better integrated into the family because of time, possibly marriage and children, the events at which Plan A falls through to make room for Plan B will become farther and farther apart. THIS IS OK.

The key is for the EX-in-laws to be your Plan B too. Yes, they can still be important, but you need to give priority to other Rs in your life.

BTW, you are still pretty co-dependent on XH. You never say anything about returning to a co-dep group. Why is that?

On the other hand, this is clear progress:

"I used to think that knowing, understanding, how all this happened would help me either fix it or accept it. It hasn't made a damn bit of difference. "

Linkin Park: http://www.google.com/url?q=http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569479530708290&ei=3oMWS_OyGZC4NeKn-bgG&sa=X&oi=music_play_track&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CAgQ0wQoADAA&usg=AFQjCNEL9Dh5IVQaMCzagDQeKZT8qibxVw

BTW, any idea how Nikki is?

Donna, I can so relate to all of this:

Quote:

It is expected, an eventuality. But still hurts to feel so replaced in what was such a big part of my life - these people were my family for more than 20 years.

it hurts, because we've lost not only our nuclear family, we've lost our extended family. Whether or not you're emotionally "close" to them, you've still shared a significant part of your life and important events with them. And it hurts to think of another woman being welcomed into that circle where we used to be--especially if we were left in the dust because of her.

In my case, his family has chosen to cut me off completely, so definitely no holiday invitation; even those who weren't direct about it ("please don't contact us again--the kids might see it") don't want any contact because they "don't want to take sides." I'm taking that really to mean they don't want to be seen as taking my side. Sadly, I have no family of my own.

Quote:

I hear about him, and really wonder how he did it.

they got over us because they had plenty of brain chemicals telling them there was nothing to get over, but the new thing feels really good, so it must be right. They're living a delusion, and have justified and rationalized so that they feel no grief at all.

Quote:

Is this wallowing, or part of my excrutiatingly-long process? It's little things...

I felt like I was wallowing too--but I need to wallow for awhile, feel the grief--the sadness, anger, unfairness--before I can move forward. It does seem to be taking forever--but so much grief is a reflection of how much we loved.

Quote:

I used to think that knowing, understanding, how all this happened would help me either fix it or accept it. It hasn't made a damn bit of difference.

I think it will make a difference in the future. Working all this through is necesssary for healing, it's just that we're not healed yet, so it's not resolved for us. One day--and I'm saying this as a leap of faith--it will make more sense somehow.

Donna,

WASs deal with a lot of the pain/grief alone before they ever walk away. So, XH did a lot before you ever knew anything, before he ever started his A too. WASs also deal with a lot of the pain/grief only AFTER they really lose the LBS. You have had to deal with the loss of XH. XH has not had to deal with the loss of you because he hasn't lost you, and he surely knows that. So, he (1) has a huge head start on you, (2) was able to process a lot of pain/grief without having to do it with bomb/A overhead on him, and (3) has much less to deal with because he did not lose you. In addition, in no doubt helps one to quit looking backward and to quit obsessing about the past when one moves forward in life and in relationships. The past becomes rather tedious and boring if you aren't making your present life about your past. So, his new R no doubt helps there. The initial joy of falling in love is also a good cushion. As is the ongoing love and support found in a LTR romantic partnership that works. XH seems to have found one of these.

So, please reject the temptation to assume that XH's R must really be crap (no sign that it is) and that it will fail and that it will crash and burn. EVEN if this is true (which I don't think it is), leaning on wishes of pain and destruction for another to get through the day is (1) codependence at its ugliest, (2) very sad for your kids when the target is their father, (3) sure to keep you stuck, bitter, and looking backwards when XH's life doesn't suck as badly as you want it to. You've turned away from that unhealthy path, don't let the holidays tempt you into indulging yourself with an easy fix by taking another stroll down it.

Instead, focus on making XH's life and its success or failure irrelevant to you except insofar as him having a great life is much better for the kids than him having a bad life. Focus on making your life great. When you are happy, engaged, moving forward, you too find the old crap just plain tedious. I've seen it. It isn't that the past wasn't important, the good and the bad are both very important. It's simply beating a dead horse thing... If you obsessed EVERY DAY about your mom, it would get darn old too...

So, take the happy path. Keep doing what you are doing. Make those connections, make new traditions. And don't self-victimize by indulging your pity parties. If the old decorations don't work for you this year, IGNORE THEM. Solve the problem when it isn't painful. Instead, do a theme tree. You're an ART teacher for goodness sake. Do an origami tree, a fruit and nut tree, a wish tree, whatever. But DO NOT do the indulgent thing and sob through sorting a bunch of old ornaments. You've been a victim enough, you crave it, but don't feed that craving.

high road, happy path, you know how to do it, you deserve it.

HM,

I haven't seen anyone here who was "left in the dust" because of an OW or OM. The OW and OM made it into the M BECAUSE of the problems in the M, they didn't cause them.

If you really want to continue your Rs with your EX-in-laws, then you have to be a friend to their family. This means NOT wanting XH to have a bad life, NOT wanting him to be in pain, NOT continuing to condemn and judge his current life. As long as you are against XH in the present, then you are no friend to his family. This is why a friendship with you would be taking sides BECAUSE you are opposed to XH. If you aren't opposed to him, if you are detached, if you make his life irrelevant to yours, then his family won't have to take sides by being friends with you, anymore than they'd be taking sides by being friends with me. It is YOUR opposition, your continuing insistence to making your life about XH, that leaves no space for them to be friends with you.

They could deal with: "I think XH should have done things differently when he left our M. Still I wish him well now, though I really prefer not to talk about him at all. I try to mind my own business, ya know?"

They can't deal with: "I think XH should have done things differently when he left our M. He should pay for what he's done. You should hate him and his trollop that ruined my M. They don't deserve to be together, they don't deserve happiness. I wish them both the worst. My misery is their fault. Now, shall we have lunch?"

[yes, i'm sure you would never say such things, but let me assure you that you still communicate that message loud and clear]

As for not having any extended family, I think you said your dad was one of 12 siblings. No doubt you have a ton of extended family. You already found one cousin. Why don't you make finding a dozen relatives your 12 days of Christmas? You could even do an advent calendar. This would be a positive and exciting place to put your energy and start building your OWN support network so that you don't have to rely on one that is designed mainly to support your XH.

Wow! Go Mish, go Mish, go Mish!!!

cutting and pasting onto my thread (re: ufo's) so I don't hijack Donna's....

Oh, I think it is OK. The Ex-in-law Rs are something Donna is working on too, which is really why I focused on that in your HM's post.

Donna, I know you are also still dealing with distance from the EX-in-laws, I think largely for similar reasons. On the bright shiny side, the Thanksgiving invite and their disappointment sounds like you really are making space now for friendship. (But they'll still always be B-list friends...)

All said out of nothing but love and support!!!

LOVE YOU DONNA!!

Apparently I was missed - I have been included in the sibs' secret Santa (they set it up that households are buying a gift for another household, rather than individuals this year - I got younger BIL's house, the one who recently had the baby I haven't met). He is the one who is hosting XMas this year, and I was invited again. I guess I will wait to decide until it gets closer, again. I think I am still re-setting the relationships in my head.

I had a down day, today. I know it is the holidays. And just more schedule stuff with life and work.
Won't bore with the details, since we have all been there, I think. Just missing the life I had.
I did go to Church today, and helped some of the kids (they were doing Kids in Service today, so were doing the readings, being ushers, etc.).
The end of the service found me really down (just seeing intact families, I think).

Home to a nap, trying to reset my head. It worked a little...
went out with the kids to get some snow gear, then off with them and in-laws to get our tree and wreaths. Christmas music, home to get decorations up from downstairs. (Ugh, next to the huge pile of laundry).

Going through the motions today, though. Hope that things will feel better tomorrow.

"Apparently I was missed - I have been included in the sibs' secret Santa (they set it up that households are buying a gift for another household, rather than individuals this year - I got younger BIL's house, the one who recently had the baby I haven't met). He is the one who is hosting XMas this year, and I was invited again. I guess I will wait to decide until it gets closer, again. I think I am still re-setting the relationships in my head."

Ughhh. I'd hate that if it happened to me. Tough sitch for you, no wonder you feel heavy. This really is kind of a big deal and it will take a lot of work to figure out what to do, no matter what you decide. Priority: YOU, taking care of YOU.

Only go and be involved if you think you can maintain a positive attitude afterward. If you can't, please decline. Go do something else that night. Go to the city and check out all the lights! I've always dreamed of going to NY at Christmastime to see the spectacle. Some day.....

I feel like there is a choice ahead of me...what kind of person will I be, how will I continue to react to all of this.

(The movie As Good as it Gets keeps playing in my head)

Do I suck it all up and "make nice," fake it till I make it? Let go of the past and move forward, let it roll off my back, "make space" for friendship?
Is this the healthier way...is this grace?
Is this what DB is steering us towards, therefore allowing the other person to see all that they are missing and giving up, too?

Or do I continue to be withdrawn, "dark," protect myself from it all and avoid all necessary contact? Wish that he would just go away...

Do I love him enough to be around him on his terms, friends? If I love him, is it better to not be around him at all?

I feel selfish in my all-or-nothing, my-way-or-no-way thinking.
I know that the pain is coming from inside me, and I don't know where to go with it.

I also don't want to revisit crazyville again anytime soon.

Maybe I'm just not strong enough, and that is the final nail in the coffin (you would think that a year+ divorce would have been the nail, right? I wish...). I feel like my failings at DB killed any chances. Who knows if there would have been a chance - right now, he seems to have been one of the unmoveables. He never showed even the slightest hint of looking back or regrets.

WHY does it still hurt like this? Why do I continue to think about it, dream of him at night? I have a very good life with a long list of things I am grateful for. Friends, family, kids, church, house, career, pets, activities just for me, strides in self-improvement. There is just this black hole that threatens to swallow all of it up.

I want the directions of this "letting go" and "getting on with your life," "get over it" stuff. Cause I am going through all the motions, and not too much is moving internally, in my heart.
Is it just time? Been 3 years since the bomb. Back when my baby was starting 2nd grade. She is a 5th grader, now!
I re-read the awful things he did and said...and my poor, stupid brain tries to forget them still, or find excuses for them. Hard to overwrite 20 years with three, maybe.

When my son was little, he developed a stutter. I would watch him actually push on the sides of his face, trying to force the words out. Overthinking it. He needed a completely different approach to his speech therapy, one where they didn't focus on the sounds and mistake as much, but to slow down his thoughts and words.
Maybe that has been my same mistake, too - trying too hard to push through all of this. Overthinking.

But damn, I want the pain to stop. Those "gotcha" moments when the most unexpected thing sets me off again...
the thing that got me in church?

Two pews ahead of me:
A man with his family, leaning over to kiss his daughter on the forehead while his arm was wrapped behind his wife and his son climbed on his lap.
And he had the same hair as my ex...

My IC told me a long time ago that no one was asking me to stop loving him. But, what do I do with it?

Donna,

Just curious, what do you think has changed in your interactions with in-laws that might explain the change in their approach?

If I had to guess, I'd think your growth has a lot to do with it. But, I wonder if there is not something else to it as well...

Oh, hon, my head is mush right now - can you come out and give it your best guess? I have no idea where you are headed, there...

I don't know if there has been a change in their approach.

I added this to the copy I sent my IC:

Is this co-dependence, a subconscious anxiety that I can't do it all without him to support and help me? The more I do on my own, the less likely that this seems to be the problem with me, the less likely that these feelings will stop. Co-dependence might fade away, but there is more to this left.

I am working hard on my disorganization issues. Went back to DBT things I learned, set up a tight schedule with it all written down, have someone helping me organize my backload of paperwork. Catching up with work things and prioritizing. Still feel overwhelmed sometimes, that all of this is meant for more than one person to handle, but am getting better at it. I might not have been cut out to be Supermom, but I am putting things in place to make that more accessible.
I KNOW that I am a smart person and can do this! Just needed some training and a fire lit under my a$$...

Donna, I am facing the 'fake it for the holidays' sitch myself. You are asking yourself some good questions. Your answer (not like I have any answers, mind you) may lie somewhere between having better boundaries and fewer expectations.
I attended a social function w/ H recently after he said I was overthinking it...but, I had really good boundaries. It worked, and I actually had a little fun. love, Goldey

People react to you by how you make them FEEL. I have been asking myself, how do I make in-laws feel? ex?

Is this what I want?

What DO I want? And am I strong enough to follow through?

Blech.

Did anyone read Tnglator's recent post?
That is my real fear....I don't know what to say to him.

Balance, dear Donna...People are in charge of their own feelings.
I went through a similar thought process in January. Thought I was bringing everyone down. Wet blanket at the party.
It's one thing if you walk in and are rude to people. Of course they will react. But...if you simply show up, act 'as if', most people can handle it.
I think the holidays stir some of this stuff up. Expectations and all that jazz.
Hey, I have a new thread. Can you come visit sometime? love, Goldey

"People react to you by how you make them FEEL."

Indeed.

Originally Posted By: oldtimer

"People react to you by how you make them FEEL."

Indeed.

I'm sorry, but no one makes anyone else feel anything. That is taking way too much responsibility. One can contribute to an outcome by their behavior, but that is all.

Absolutely -- there is only so much influence our actions have on others, which can no doubt be frustrating, lol. On the bright side, you are also right that though we can't control the reactions of others, we can still very much shape the personal space around us by how we behave around people. Though our power remains limited, creating positive space is the best thing we can do to invite positive Rs and positive interactions into our lives.

Donna,

If I had to guess, I'd guess that you've gotten closer to a point where you don't count the sibs not hating or abandoning their brother as a betrayal of you. This gives them much more space to be close to you.

Also, what I was sort of hinting at before, for some reason, can't quite say why, I'd also guess that they've somehow gotten a more objective/balanced perspective on things themselves -- perhaps because they've had more interactions with XH's GF, perhaps because they have learned more of what went on during the A, perhaps because XH is getting to a more objective place himself and has backed off of demonizing you? (The WASs and LBSs both demonize each other pretty well, lol.) Anyway, who knows.

Here, though, is the challenge you face: as they warm up, you'll feel less needy/less abandoned/less victimized. You'll feel less like the damaged little girl when you are with them and more like a strong adult. The question for the strong adult is: do you really want to have Rs with the sibs? They'll largely be new Rs, and they'll always be some old emotional overhead with them. Perhaps the benefits outweigh the costs for you. That is up to you to decide. They won't ever be just family again though. That can be OK. Just make sure that you feel the choice, own the choice, recognize it as your choice.

Being friends (not family) with Ex-in-laws is not something you "should do" to prove you are healthy. Just like any friendship, such Rs should be freely chosen and welcomed into your life because they enhance your life. If you rekindle (neokindle, lol) the Rs with the sibs, do it only for the sake of that kind of genuine friendship. You don't need to prove anything to anyone here, even yourself. There is nothing to prove.

What about ADD meds? Have you ever tried something like Adderall? I'm telling you, they work quickly (not like anti-depressants) and you can use them only when you want.

As for XH. Again, you have nothing to prove there with respect to friendship. And, trying to be his friend has nothing to do with whether you love him or not.

Suppose a woman is molested by her father. As an adult, she might still love her father, she might even forgive her father, she might be in some amazing place of self-evolution in which she's really dealt with all the old stuff. Yet, suppose she still chose not to have an R with her father. There would be nothing unhealthy about that, nothing stuck about that. There would be nothing in that to suggest she did not love her father or that she did not forgive him. She would simply be choosing not to include an R in her life that wouldn't work well for her.

I think your co-dependence shines brightly when you try to figure out what your Rs with XH and his sibs mean about YOU. Whether or not you should stop being dark, whether you should be friends with EX-family... Your focus is on what it says about you rather than on the value of the R and the other person in the R for him/herself. In a nutshell, you are taking how they react to you, interact with you as proof about something about yourself. It is not proof. They are not you. They are not a mirror for you. You have nothing to prove to them. It will not help you to try to prove something to them to thereby prove something to yourself.

Likewise, if you are never friends with XH, it shows nothing about whether you love or forgive. So, don't worry about trying to prove anything via an R with him.

You are doing great. You are finding some compassion. You are decent and civil to them, kind and loving with Ex-in-laws. You have shed your LoveHimThenYouHurtMe blanket. You are detaching. So don't find another back door to codependence by trying to prove something to you/them by "being friends."

If friendship is in the cards, then CHOOSE it for the sake of the friendship. Full stop. Don't choose it because of what you think such a choice says about you, for that is the back door toward codependence rather than away from it.

Your choices, your risk/benefit calculations, your consequences to own.

OT - that has to be one of the best posts I have ever seen! You are so brilliant. You said everything I was thinking but in a much better way than I could have put it.

Donna, sweetie, you know how much I love and care for you. At least I hope you do! I want nothing more than for you to release all of this and live life strictly on your own terms and without wondering what effect it will have on those remotely associated with you.

Quote:

Or do I continue to be withdrawn, "dark," protect myself from it all and avoid all necessary contact? Wish that he would just go away...

Unhealthy. You know it, I know it. This is a protection mechanism but you no longer need to be in protection mode. You have created a life of your own. There is truly no reason to be totally withdrawn from them, that smacks of being hostile. Is there any reason to feel that way anymore? I wouldn't think so. Like OT said though, it doesn't mean you have to have a R with them to prove anything. Do what you feel will work for you. Saying hello and exchanging pleasantries is being real. Trying to force yourself into a R with people you no longer have anything in common with is fake and only will further your own pain.

Please print and read OT's post over and over. I really think what she said will be hugely helpful! Heck, even give it to your C and have her read it. She might find creative ways to work those ideas into your future sessions.

((((((((((Donna)))))))))))))))))))

Friends, thank you for the notes. I do appreciate the advice about the in-laws.

However, while that situation is challenging and I'm still unsure what I will end up doing for Christmas, it is really something else bothering me entirely.

I don't think, deep in my heart, that I have closed the door on my ex, even though he has most assuredly done so with me.

I just miss him. Past all the anger, and hurt and betrayal, I miss him. And I am angry with myself, impatient to get past all this.
I have great doubts that I ever will.

So....this brings me back to the relationships with his family, with him, going forward.

IF there were to ever be some...God, I don't even want to write it down here, it seems so pathetic given others' stories...I can imagine all of the shaking heads...

Maybe the question is, how late is too late? How much damage is too much damage?
Is staying distant and dark only making sure that any hope is completely squashed? Couple that with the questions of, am I strong enough to be open to a friendship with my ex, accepting that he is with someone else (thoughts of that bring me great pain)? Is this the only way that there would be some future possibility? I almost feel like I am back at square one...
trying to save something that hasn't been for a long time.

I think that maybe I am still crazy...

He has never lost you, he hasn't felt that because he hasn't. You have been drenched in the pain. The only way to get past that is to take back your life, take back the power he holds over you. Don't make choices based on what affect it may or may not have on him but only what affect it will have on you and/or the kids.

He has moved on and you have to decide if you want to sit around waiting and being in a constant state of pain hoping he will come back or do you want to create a life where you can find your inner happiness without thought of the past?

hugs, kat

He has had no insight into how I feel or any other part of my life for a very long time, due to going dark...I think the last time I got emotional with him was in the spring, but spoke with him afterward and explained that I just wanted to fix things for the kids, that I knew it was over.
I think a mutual friend told him a while back that I was fine and moved on with my life. Seems that is what he has hoped for - he is happy, and hopes that I will find my own happiness someday.

I've done so much for myself in these past years - certainly not sitting around, but yes, waiting. Pushing forward and waiting. One foot in front of the other and waiting. Surviving.
I've written about this in the past, I know. How I have a good life, full, so full that I can't even imagine how to squeeze a new love interest into it (if I had any interest in the first place - I have tried, on match and eharmony, some dating a while back). I have created a life that I am happy with - except for that huge, gaping hole.

The question is, HOW do I stop feeling what I feel? I can't deny that it is there.
Maybe it is a matter of time...or maybe it will always be there and I should just get used to it.
I am exasperating to myself.

Donna, loss is loss and somehow we just have to accept that it's OK to feel that gaping hole sometimes. It's human to want a companion, someone you can come home to and say "guess what happened today" and know that person cares. It's OK to keep desiring that and to sometimes shed a few tears, despite having a good life otherwise. It's not all black or white, perfection or failure...it's a mix, I guess that's what life is all about. Keep taking that step forward and believing that the pieces will one day fall into place and one day they will!!!

OT - that was so well said. I am printing it out so that I can keep these thoughts permanantly. I needed to hear this to really cement in my head what I have felt about friendship with the X. It wouldn't be productive in my life and hearing that that is okay from someone else helps. I have felt what you expressed, but thought that maybe it was just my own opinion, and therefore somehow useless.....guess i need to work on that!

I can end your suspense: you will ALWAYS miss the old-H in some way. Even if you were to reconcile, you will miss the old-H. The end of an M kills the old R. It is gone, past, to be mourned, to be loved, to be missed. Just like your mother, you will always miss some part of the M, some part of old-H. It will always be sad that things did not work out. Even if you wind up with a new better life, and a husband you love much more and much better, there will always be a loss, there will always be sadness about it. But, like I said, this is hardly unique to divorce. We mourn all sorts of losses in our lives. Those losses stay sad. Look, I am HAPPY that I got D. I am much much happier in my life, happier with my husband, in a much better place in pretty much every way. And, it is still sad that I lost my M of 17 or 18 years, that I no longer have the R with the person I grew up with (except that we couldn't really grow up when we were together). IT IS SAD.

I can tell you also that no matter how you want your life to go, assuming that you want it to go well, right now there is only ONE WAY to go. Let go, stop making your choices contingent on what XH may or may not do, and make a great life for yourself.

You think not detaching earlier affected your chances? Maybe, if there was a chance, but it seems that your H was long gone before you knew. But not detaching now certainly will continue to affect your chances -- your chances of having a good life, your chances of having a more normalized co-parenting R with XH, your chances of attracting a good partner into your life, whoever that might me...

You are still waiting for XH to heal you, to rescue you. That is still pure and simple codependence. What about your codepenents group? And why do you never respond when I ask?

OT, I reread your post...

Quote:

Whether or not you should stop being dark, whether you should be friends with EX-family... Your focus is on what it says about you rather than on the value of the R and the other person in the R for him/herself. In a nutshell, you are taking how they react to you, interact with you as proof about something about yourself...Don't choose it because of what you think such a choice says about you, for that is the back door toward codependence rather than away from it.

The friendship question I was thinking about is not about what it says or doesn't say about me.
It was more along the lines of what path would bring me closer to any chance of reconcilliation in the future.
And as I am sitting here thinking about this, I can see similarities in my objectives with that of his girlfriend's past actions, while she was still working through friend-crush-flirting, wedging herself into my marriage. Yuck.

I just want to find some make-believe rewind button and have my husband back, the man who loved me, once.

Emotional exhaustion. How many naps can you take in a day? And I stayed home to catch up on real work...

Sincerely, if you really want to maximize your chances at reconiliation, detach, let go, and stop being codependent.

Starting a sham friendship with XH to try to get him to end his R, leave his home, and reconcile with you is not real friendship and it will not help your chances of reconciling.

If you can have a genuine friendship not based on you wanting something from him that he doesn't want to give, then that might be OK. But, it doesn't look to me as though that is where you are.

I don't know what else the Alanon group can do for me. I have no interest in more drama in my life, and it became a source of drama (my sponsor being an adulteress, and a woman I became friendly with freaked out on me when I withdrew for a while, took it personally).

I read the materials...
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol (or codependence)�that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I try to work the program. The powerlessness is hard...
The struggle between DB influence and leaving others to their own choices.

I recognize the selfishness in wishing that ex would see what happened and how much I loved him and would have worked on it...
I want him to be happy. I just hoped so much that it had been with me.

Quote:

Starting a sham friendship with XH to try to get him to end his R, leave his home, and reconcile with you is not real friendship and it will not help your chances of reconciling.

If you can have a genuine friendship not based on you wanting something from him that he doesn't want to give, then that might be OK. But, it doesn't look to me as though that is where you are.

And therein lies my frustration with myself.

So, just continue as I have been, one step in front of the other, and accept the sadness and missing him. Got it.

This sucks (says the little girl inside). Grown-up me has to wipe her face and get some work done...

Watch it. You don't want me to call you tagline Donna do you?

((((Donna))))

Quote:

Let go, stop making your choices contingent on what XH may or may not do, and make a great life for yourself.

The last two parts of this I have down (it is only the recent question of friendship that I was contemplating, and I can clearly see that I am not ready/strong enough for that).

Let go...
what exactly does that mean?
It isn't Stop missing him and the old marriage.
It isn't Stop loving him.

What is it, then? Being happy that he is happy, wishing him well in his life while I go about mine?
Being unaffected by anything he says or does? (How do you do that if you still love and miss someone? - just pretend and don't say anything?)

So many times I have thought I Let Go, only to find myself back here from time to time.

Funny thing is, I am sure that I Let Go of my sister. She makes contact when she is comfortable, and I am always happy to hear from her; I don't take it personally if long stretches of time go between. She has at times lashed out at me, and I try to understand and forgive. I love her and always will.
But her absence doesn't have me in this state...no one and nothing's absence has ever had me like this, and I have lost both my parents young.

Now, how do I get to this place with him?!

Maybe I just have to get this out every now and again...feeling better, anyway. Kids are home, S14 just danced the tango with me across the kitchen just cause he wanted to.
He is off to scouts tonight, and D and I will be at the pet store. Her little guppy tank has run out of guppies, just about, and she wants to replace them with some fire-bellied toads. It is a reward for how much she worked on her room on Saturday (although she did it all without the promise of a reward, which is even better).

I'm kind of pissed at myself that I spent so much useless energy today - I didn't get as caught up with work as I wanted to, which was the original reason for staying home. I'll buckle down tonight while D watches her new froggies.

Donna...I love your questions and I wish I had some sage answer for you because then I would have one for me too

what helped me move past my ex
was the thought that maybe
just maybe
he wasn't who I thought he was

(it was easier for me because he really wasn't however...that recognition was a hard won battle for me)

If I recognize that he wasn't who I thought he was then I could mourn for the relationship I thought I had had
all the dreams that went with it
because it isn't just the reltaionship that was lost

what hurts more is all the plans
all the growing old
all the time that was lost

and
I can beat myself up relentlessly over mistakes I made
how I could have handled things differently

it is a loss
a death
it is OK to mourn for that

i knew I could never be friends with my exes
i didn't like them
they were unkind to me

not the kind of people I want in my life

doesn't mean I want them to splatter on the pavement
or feel intense pain (well not anymore)
but
it was a choice
like OT said

i chose not to be friends
I also was friends with mutual friends of ours
that I let drift away too

they weren't bad people
it was just a choice I made

it makes me feel more powerful to know it is my choice
to feel the deliberate movement

maybe you will not get to the place you want ot be with him
that doesn't make you unsuccessful or a failure
it just means it isn't possible

which isn't helpful, I know

I am int he most wonderful amazing relationship
better than I had ever even known to dream
my ex was a sociopath
and
still there is loss
and regret
and pain

it is what it is
it means OUR feelings were not fake
we felt what we felt and we felt deeply

maybe accepting that will help a bit

(or I am just hopped up on cold medicine and made no sense...sorry)

((Donna)) Would you like to borrow my SuperBoots?
Last year, during the holidays, I remember feeling so much conflict. Our mutual friends became "His" friends, I had no contact at all w/ in-laws (wierd) and the little girl in me just wanted Santa to come make it all better.
Putting on my Big Girl boots helped most days.

What are your holiday plans? Sounds like you might need to GAL a bit.

If you are meant to reconcile, what does it matter if you do that next week, or next month?

I have started to reconcile with a few folks who got thrown under the bus during last year's D saga. Not all of them, mind you...some aren't worth the trouble. But a couple of them are.

Also, I've made a couple of new friends. I'm looking forward to celebrating the holidays with them, too.

Hope tomorrow is a better day. Here in Portland it's 27 degrees and I'm freezing my butt off. Time to put on my Boots.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russell-bishop/are-you-better-off-accept_b_382130.html

Thanks, guys. Hopefully it was just a dip. Thing is, since it keeps cropping back up, I don't know how much it is that I am stuck or how much is grieving - it is all looking backwards, that I get. Don't know how much is me getting past it most days or just suppressing it. What's that saying? If wishes were horses, then I would ride...

Thank you for the article...I'll re-read it again.

Off to the IC early today (she had a ton of cancellations because of the snow) - I will be going with all of your words (and some from SO's thread by 25 and ST) ringing in my ears. Gratitude and thanks for this place, again.

And for having a snow day!!!! Yes, I blew up what I wanted to get accomplished on Monday, and now I can do it today (while my kids are sledding and making a snowman) - very good turn of events.

OK, I want to get this down before I forget a bunch of it...

Talked with IC today about shutting that damn door. And how I don't (didn't?) want to.

OK, I am three years into this mess. The first year, I just concentrated on survival - literally, staying on the planet.
Next year, tried to "fix" things - miserable results.
Third year, finally into grief with periods of trying to go backwards (or running up a down escalator, as the IC put it).

Now, it is time to rebuild. There has been lots of progress on myself, but I have to keep it going.
And yes, I got up close and personal with my codependence today.

I have done a lot of the steps (GAL, etc.) and that has helped. I HAVE found that I can be ok on my own, take care of adult responsibilities, along with myself.
What has been missing...?
The way I explained it in IC was this: There is still this big hole. I don't feel the contentment, the happiness and joy, that I felt when x loved me. Having that one person reject me, act that this other person is better and more deserving of his love, time and attention...I felt that I would never have that feeling of being complete and happy again in my life, without him. I have been afraid to close the door, thinking that it would also mean I would be here at "just ok" for the rest of my life. So much of my self-esteem, my being in the world, was wrapped up in him (know the song, "Because you loved me" ?)
It has fueled my illogical attachment, my longing for him and continued hatred for his girlfriend.
If he had died before I got the bomb, I think I would have been fine by this point - going on without all of this inner turmoil. But he is still alive and well - and I just have to accept that he has rejected me for another. No amount of begging, reasoning, or waiting is going to change that fact. Most likely, he doesn't even think about his former life with me much or at all - I have been put behind him. That is the sticking point, and it is something that I can do absolutely nothing about.

So, I am tired of being this way - I want that feeling back, contentment, and realize that there has to be another way that DOES NOT include my x anywhere in the picture. I want to be content, feel whole in my life again, not like I am just going through the motions.

She said it is time to close the door, for good. That there ARE other ways to have what I want back in my life, but leaving the door open is making sure that I will never be able to be open to any new thing that enters my life - it will just be me standing at an open door, and living with the emptiness.
The emptiness is still going to be there, but will get smaller with time. (Hey, I did say something about it being a matter of time, didn't I?)
It is still scary to close the door - and IC said it is time to take on things that are scary. Get out of my comfort zone, push myself. OT, I think it was you who said once that I seemed to be comfortable in my own misery at this point; at least it was familiar.

Hard work ahead: Attract new friends that don't know a thing about my married life. Develop a stronger body (which helps become stronger emotionally). Maybe get a book club together, or a single's group (there is nothing that I could find that wasn't an hour away). Focus on my artistic expression again - pull that sketchbook out. Hold a one-time class in my new studio.
I look at my GAL activities, and they have all been pretty safe.

I was so comfortable in my previous life. I had my group of friends - most if not all that I shared with my x; many were his sibs. I didn't have to push outside of what I knew best - x's strengths complimented my own, so he took care of all the things I didn't know or care much about.
IC told me the story of the two trees standing side by side with their roots interwoven - but that they were still two, separate trees, not one leaning on the other. I told her it seemed scary, and sad, to not have that level of sharing, that co-dependence.
But then she said, "Co-dependence is all an illusion, anyway! What happened to you? One of the trees up and walked away, planted in another garden! And there you are, still standing! YOU have to believe it!"

Time to get uncomfortable. Build on what I have been able to accomplish and surprise myself with (me, haggling with building tradesmen and not getting taken advantage of? Who would have thought?)

Essentially, I have to rewire my brain. Issues and beliefs that go back to childhood. X was the first person who really showed me that I was lovable and worthwhile. I now have to prove that to myself; his is just another in a long line of those who have let me down.

Keeping to my schedule for housekeeping (and other time-related tasks) has been off to a good but not perfect start. I have been too ready to "stay comfortable" and try to blow things off when it is time to deal with a responsibility. More to get uncomfortable with.

Now, I know that so much this is what many here have been trying to tell me for a long, long time. I think that I am able to finally hear it, process it.

This may be far away from what this forum is really for, but I hope that maybe something that I wrote might be of some use to anyone else...

Sounding good Donna. And, this is precisely the point of this forum, I should think.

BTW, I started to suggest that you might find my post to mbw helpful, but then I stopped because I didn't think you'd be able to see why. But, now after your new post, I think perhaps you might find it helpful after all...

Happy New Year! Year 1, Dynamic Donna's Amazing Life

re: your post to mbw

Write a letter to myself about what I am missing and needing?

Not sure exactly, but I am guessing you are more likely pointing out that my current "empty feeling" has more to do with myself and less to do with my x.

I get that - it's the whole co-dependence/illusion thing.

This was a friend's FB status:

Quote:

"The greatest happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved - loved for ourselves, or rather, loved in spite of ourselves. "

I have to change that to read...We love ourselves, in spite of ourselves.

Yay Donna!

The same friend on FB posted this today - it is much better!

Quote:

�The best day of your life is the one on which you decide your life is your own. No apologies or excuses. No one to lean on, rely on, or blame. The gift is yours - it is an amazing journey - and you alone are responsible for the quality of it. This is the day your life really begins.�

OMG! That one is perfect! Print it and live by it.

Love you Donna!!!

"I took a look at my GAL activities, they were all pretty safe."
Hmmm....
Weekend is almost upon us. What'cha going to do to keep up that PMA, honey?
love, Goldey
p.s. I don't know if you remember the wee-hours phone call last December, but it really made a difference. Just thought you should know.

OK, Women's spirituality in the AM (Advent). I will finally get into my bedroom to clean and organize!

Yes, I know this sounds like a party, but I never get to do it since the rest of the house is on catch-up.
I think I am going to catch a movie on my own (if no one else decides to take me up on a few offers I have out). Finish decorating and shopping.
Oh, and a home-spa night - bubble bath, book, etc.

Yeah, all safe, I know! But it is a hard time of year, and I need to just focus in for a little longer.

Goldey - it is in the outskirts of my memory bank - lots of stuff didn't stick over the last 3 years, some PTSD probably. I am glad that I was able to help a bit. Must have been some good stuff, if it lasted this long, right?

Spoke with x on the phone for a few minutes today about the kids. S14 got his progress report, and he is still getting nailed for not getting all assignments in and studying for tests. X wants to come down really hard, "give him a swift kick in the a$$" to shape him up. He is going to write to the ROTC commander again and see if we can get some inside help.

He started to say that he would email me things about XMas "since you never let me know what the kids wanted." Again, the kids talk to him DAILY. I just said ok, whatever...
Asked if he wanted to have breakfast with them next Saturday - my day, but his birthday. He said yes, I should know he will always take whatever I offer - but will I drive both ways so he doesn't have to go out on his birthday?
A$$. I just said I should be able to pick up, but have to look at getting them to him. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth... I think he realized how stupid he sounded when he got some dead air. I was SO tempted to just start laughing and say, you ARE kidding, right?

Quote:

He started to say that he would email me things about XMas "since you never let me know what the kids wanted." Again, the kids talk to him DAILY. I just said ok, whatever...

The first year my X called so we could "coordinate Christmas gifts." I told him what I wanted to get them and he ran out and bought it from him (and OW) the next day. Since then I have told the kids to make different lists for us!

Quote:

Asked if he wanted to have breakfast with them next Saturday - my day, but his birthday. He said yes, I should know he will always take whatever I offer - but will I drive both ways so he doesn't have to go out on his birthday?
A$$. I just said I should be able to pick up, but have to look at getting them to him. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth... I think he realized how stupid he sounded when he got some dead air. I was SO tempted to just start laughing and say, you ARE kidding, right?

Wow! I think I would have laughed!!!!

Donna, I was really surprised what shaped up my S14...a girlfriend. He enjoys going to school now and has her in 4 classes so he gets to work with her on projects. Now you ask what did he lose when told a lie that caused some problems? A weekend without going to her house.

Right now he only has one C, because the teacher doesn't reset the grade but carries it throughout the year. Everything else is A's and B's. I hope you find what motivates your son.

kat

Ugh! WHY is Tiger Woods everywhere?!
With all of these stories of infidelity, I wonder what WAS' and ex's think....

Hey, I found The Thing - Kurt Russell just napalmed a crab-head! This is better!!!!

I hear ya on the Tiger thing. I had to quickly change from the Today show this morning because they were interviewing one of thw ho's. She was a nasty skank and my blood was boiling. All that crap about "oh we were friends and it just led to something more." Of course, Meredith asked her if she was aware he was M'd when she started this she said "Yes, I'm not saying it's right but it happened." GAG! I was getting so angry and let some choice words slip right in front of Marc. Not good.

We were talking this morning about the Three Wise Men following their star - what was OUR star...?
I didn't realize that my pastor didn't go into seminary until she was 40! Lots of other stories, but that was very cool - I sometimes forget that there is a plenty of time for me to have a new path...
It was my turn - what was my star? Unlike a few of the other women, I was happy in my career.

Thinking...then I remembered the dancing. Anyone here remember the young guy who was the champion Lindy dancer?

I think I (re)discovered the next thing to get me out of my comfort zone......seems that there were lots of leads that I can follow to actually get this off the ground, right here in town. I thought it was more of a Southern thing...I had already set the New Year as when I would try to focus on my physical health more, get to a gym, etc. I have never had a lot of "physical self-awareness" - never did a cartwheel, hated gym, no sports. Looks like a good place to focus, now - it can do nothing but benefit.

Donna, just make sure that you pick an activity that you will like! Gyms often have alot of different group activities like Yoga and there's bound to be something you will really like. There's nothing worse than trying to get fit by doing an activity that you hate. When I was running I also noticed a lot of others running but they were running in inappropriate shoes and I'm sure after a few runs in crappy runners they swore off running forever. so make sure whatever you do that you put out the money to be properly attired. Remember, the gyms make their money off all the New Years resolution folk who sign up, come once or twice then stop coming but keep paying every month. Good luck with it, as physical exercise is one of the keys to beating depression and anxiety. So it would certainly be a great place to start.

Hey, wii

Yeah, I want a place with some interesting classes. A friend recommended a 24hr place, but it is equipment only. I have a treadmill at home - I want to look at some of the different aerobics, maybe even kickboxing or other martial art. And Zumba. I don't like running, myself...
I am hoping that the gyms have some good offers coming up.

Let go or be dragged....

by...

Let go or be dragged.

I recommend boxercise. Great aeorobic exercise. It also helps me to get rid of the excess testosterone that makes me stupid. It may have helped Tiger get rid of some of his stupidity buildup. Hitting that little white ball with a stick surely does not do it.

OT, good tag line, isn't it? Especially when I remember it!

Kerry, I love that - testosterone, the thing that makes men stupid.

Had a fun night - went out to dinner and a movie with friends (hi!) - saw the Blindside. Have to do that more. Really good all around...
Off to service, then home to get more done around here before the babes are back tonight.

Happy Sunday, all!

Hey Ms. D..

Thanks for getting me outta the house with your timely text. My daughter quickly adjusted to her momma having plans, I dropped her off early at a friend's and then went through the "I have nothing to wear, when did these clothes get so tight" routine which hallmarks the beginning of a great evening.

It was great fun, even more fun laughing during the movie and the Grail of all Grails.. the blonde, the brunette and the redhead having ice cream apres cinema... magnifique!

You're a special woman.. *hugs*.. and I'm so glad your lil ratties have a new home. My wardrobe thanks you!

*hugs*

Hey Donna! Try a bellydancing class too. Great workout and lots of fun. Some friends and I did that a couple of years ago through our rec department and I think we gave our stomachs a better workout laughing than actually dancing. GREAT FUN!

So, I am on these dating sites. I think it is more for reading enjoyment than actually getting out there at this point, but whatever - haven't found anyone interesting enough to even meet for coffee, yet.
It had me thinking today about what I find attractive.

I had the "hunkish brute" for a long time. The lumberjack - the first time I saw him, he was carrying a tree by himself over his shoulder.

Then, a 6'7", 229lb. guy emailed me. I am 5'1". I can't fathom it.

My standards keep ratcheting up - possible to get the brains AND the braun, all while hoping he still has a head full of hair?

I have to tell you about my experience on a dating site. A friend talked me into signing onto a free one. The first 3 guys they declared a match were the following: a guy with no legs, a biker dude on a Harley with a beard halfway down his chest, and a male witch looking for a live-in for a 3-way and to be a caregiver for his ailing wife! I'm not making this up!

Needless to say, my time on that site was very short-lived.

That is some funny skit!

Like I said, it makes for good reading material.

One word of advice - don't meet anyone who can't get a picture of themselves online. There is a reason...

OMG hoosier!!! ROTFLMAO!!! That is crazy!

yeah; I figure that any guy I'd have to carry up the stairs to my bedroom--should we get to that point--is just not gonna be my soulmate. I mean, maybe that makes me shallow, but y'know?!

LOL, HM.

I'd like to sign up for that sight, just to see who they match me up with!

you might have better options in Massachusetts than I had here in the heartland!

Well I never thought I would consider even looking at a dating site yet when I finally did - I met several very good prospects. And one of them has led to a long term (5.5 years to date) R. So - don't give up. Be careful. Set your standards high - but not unattainable. I mean - we are not perfect either. I thought I was settling for someone younger (7 years younger) and one who lived out of my city (more than an hour away). But think about it - what is wrong with that? He has more energy than someone 7 years older and the further away means I still get plenty of ME time.

Anyway, just my 2 cents for what it is worth. It worked for me!

Barb

Donna you mentioned POF on my thread. What does it stand for?

kat

plenty of fish?

Yep.. plentyoffish.com

Be sure to spell it correctly or you'll get images you're not expecting.

that's it. A friend from work also suggested cupid, but I haven't checked that out yet.

Ok I think I have been there too. I hate filling out all the darn questions. I am tired, can't I just say this is what I am looking for and they can hand him over???

kat

If you can start that business, you will be a rich woman!

Originally Posted By: Donna...Found

that's it. A friend from work also suggested cupid, but I haven't checked that out yet.

uh oh--that's the one that sent me the legless guy as a potential match!

Originally Posted By: hoosiermama

uh oh--that's the one that sent me the legless guy as a potential match!

For some reason that just gave me the giggles. Did he have the rest of his Ken parts?

I didn't really explore the possibilities, so I'm afraid I can't answer that!

Hey Donna...just wanted to say good morning. Peace.

I have looked at the plentyoffish quite a long time ago. Scary. Match.com or yahoo seems quite a bit better.

Are you looking for a legless warlock biker dude?

Originally Posted By: KerryK

I have looked at the plentyoffish quite a long time ago. Scary. Match.com or yahoo seems quite a bit better.

Are you looking for a legless warlock biker dude?

I hate to disappoint you, but I believe that combination is only available in the Hoosier state. and maybe Kentucky.

POF is where you get the first or second email from the guy and they inform you they like to wash long hair and paint your toe nails. I little too forward for my initial taste! The world of online dating is scaring me!

Hm, would it be better if he wanted you to wash his long hair and paint his toenails?

Originally Posted By: whatisis

Hm, would it be better if he wanted you to wash his long hair and paint his toenails?

LMAO.
Hey Donna, I'm having a Virtual Slumber Party on Saturday night! HM is bringing the popcorn and I wondered if you want to come by? Gyspy's coming, hopefully Greek and Dudess, and if I can get in touch w/ Cookie, we'll spread the word. Purple, we'll leave the light on for you.
There will be plenty of pizza and egg nog. Can you stop and get some ice on your way?
Sorry for the hi-jack...see you soon!
Goldey