"Once a Cheater Always a Cheater???"

Divorcebusting.com

HI folks,

this has been inspired by responses to GG's thread and some thoughts of mine.

Ron I think you said something about you used to cheat on your girlfriends all the time before your w? or am I remembering that wrong?
any how I was curious what changed you.

One of the things I loved about my H was he wasnt a flirt, womanizer, watcher or chaser... but after we were married 5 years when his alcoholism started running our lives. He did have an affair. How many? I dont know. or if the numbers even matter. Of course he still swears he has never had an affair!
when I was pregnant with my son last year we got closer. both excited about the baby and both leaning on each other more for suport in other areas of our lives etc. we became friends again. However he was still drinking. there was no more violence or verbal abuse in our home. things felt good. then a week before the baby was born on fathers day... the saturday night before he went to a bachelor party and came home at 10 the next morning. went straight to sleep. slept all day. I was fuming because it was fathers day and the girls were really wanting it to be a special day.
when he got up in the evening he started drinking away his hangover and went outside and sat on the phone for a very long time. My father called me on my cell because he couldnt get through. my usually would check the caller id but didnt. so I wondered who in the heck was more important then anything else on fathers day. I picked up the phone and listend to him and a nasty ho for a long time. finally after hearing all I felt I needed to know I confronted them. she of course was too chicken sh!t to talk to me. My H swears up and down nothing was going on between them. what they were saying to each other was just because they were drunk. however the next day they were on the phone again. She was telling him how she felt like an ass for the things they were saying to each other. Any how she told him well with the way they talk to each other any one who overheard would get the wrong idea. so they should save it for at work and other places...

Heres the thing, they didnt fool me. I am not THAT stupid. However things have been great with us. He did get help after that and does seem completely diferent now. We seem very close and happy.

Lately he has been throwing this controlling label at me. not angrily or anything just nicely let me know this. The thing is, I really am not. when he asks to go places. I always say its up to you whatever you want to do. I dont tell him what he can or cant do. I dont say it with a tone. I mean it. I didnt even tell him he couldnt talk to or be friends with the nasty ho. Just said if you want our marriage to work please dont have any more inapropriate conversations. behave in a way that you would expect from me. My friends, my sister and my counselor say I am not controlling. As a matter of fact, my friends are always getting on my case because I give him too much freedom. with all his rides he goes on etc. they say he shouldnt have let him go to bachelor partys etc. I dont want to be his mom! I feel like he is an adult he should make his own decisions.

so I was thinking about TC's controlling thread. About how it seems the ones falsely accused of being controlling is because the spouse wants to go outside the marriage.

so... I called my sis. She let me know a LONG time ago when we were all young. 18 - 21. when he was drinking he used to hit on her all the time. tell her how good she looked and how great her ass was. She felt if she would of let him things could of gone well you know... OK, that was a long time ago. but I never knew him to be like that at all! I was friends with him for a while before we dated. One of the things I liked in him that he wasnt like that! Every day he tells me how beautiful I am etc. now its making me sick because I keep imagining him saying this to every other woman.

brings me back to my original question... Once a cheater always a cheater?

Sue

My opinion - yes and no.

Yes, they will always be a cheater, unless they want and get help. People get into patterns and habits, and it's difficult to break those patterns. My XW used to talk about the pattern of abusers - abuse, followed by intense remorse, followed by calm, followed by abuse, ad nauseum. I used to follow the exact same pattern in regards to my temper. Until she left, I wanted to change, but didn't do anything to change, just said I would, and took the calm for success.

No, they won't always be a cheater, if they work at it. Most people require counseling to determine why they cheat in the first place. Obviously, if they're going through the motions, they won't change. But they can change.

So, there's my opinion. Bottom line - people get into habits and patterns, good and bad, and breaking those is extremely difficult.

FF

Sue,
Yes, that was me. What changed me was the fact that I respected marriage. I did not marry till I was 27. All my wild oats had been sown. I have no desire to go back there. All the lying, getting caught,talking my way out of it. I have been honest with LF about it also.
Which in turn makes her ask the same question?
Just yesterday a girl that runs the apt complex I live in flirted with me in front of LF. She is 26, has a young child. LF is 29 and was pretty pissed.
She accused me of wanting to be with the girl, I assured her no way. I even told the girl(after the little fallout with LF) that I was not interested and LF saw me do it.
She later called and said she over reacted and knows why such a young girl would be interested in me as do I.

I would never cheat again. There are way to many hurts that occur and things that could happen.

Now, LF's cousin who lives here in JAX and was married and is getting D, has a H that used to hit on LF when she was young. Used to say all kinds of comments to her, some very rude. When we first moved here he pants her. Was very embarrassed when the rest of her family saw her thong underwear. I was not there but later told him to keep his hands off her.
Well, its seems that her cousin caught the SOB red handed a few months ago with her neighbor!
Then he begged her back and told her where he was staying. She went over there and another Ho answered the door.
Hence she said F-off and is divorceing him. Right now she is running around, trying to soothe her pain but she has every right to.

So, you see. There are some who will continue vile behavior and put their family at risk and some who won't.
I think most who do never know what they will truly lose and take their partner for granted.
I think boudries need to be established and consequences for such actions laid out so the possible cheater can make decisions based on those consequnces once they have been known to cheat.

Now Sue anns tool comes to mind!!!
Rondo

Sue - you've brought up a good topic. Although I sway a little both ways with an answer. I believe those that are "addicts" to the cheating can get help, but I also believe that not all cheaters are addicts.

Also, Ron's post has raised another good question. He stated that he respected his marriage, but also said that he had "sowed his wild oats" prior to tying the knot.

So does that mean that those who DON'T "sow their wild oats" and/or marry young are more likely to cheat in their marriage? (Oh I know that's probably a bottomless question...but I just had to ask). Interested in what other have to say.

Chelsea

There are some men/women out there who will always cheat. I don't understand why these people can't be faithful. I'm not even sure they understand why they do what they do. They are incapable of committing to one person and in my opinion should never have married in the first place. On the other hand,there are people who can stay faithful and there are some people who make a big mistake (this is the only word I can think of at the moment -adultry is not a mistake because the cheater makes a conscious decision to cheat),they are sincerely sorry,they seek forgiveness and then they work to make sure it never happens again. There is no excuse for cheating on your spouse but I do understand that circumstances,emotional problems,etc. could cause a person to get into a tempting situation and give in to it. In my case shortly after our 32nd wedding anniversary I discovered that my H was cheating with this woman he'd met while out of town on a golf trip. The PA had only been going on for 4 months and when confronted my H immdeiately called (with me on extension) and told her that he had never stopped loving me and was going to work on our relationship so their A was over. He did email her a few times after but then he broke off all communication with her in order to repair the damage he had done to us and for us to fix what went wrong in our relationship. In order to work on your relationship it is a MUST that the cheater put the other party COMPLETELY out of their life. It is hard to explain how someone who claims to love you more than anyone could hurt you by having an A but it happens. The trick is to after the first time to do everything in your power to not let it happen again. I believe in my heart there are people like that in the world and I also believe that I am married to one. Even though he hurt me so badly and showed me that he wasn't the man I thought he was,I forgave him because I loved him too much to throw away all those years on one brief A. We were both unhappy and depressed and had stopped communicating and seemed to be drifting away from each other for some reason. He was also very stressed out at work and felt I wasn't being very supportive (which I realize I wasn't but couldn't seem to change). He had reached a point where he didn't care about anything or anybody and really didn't care if he lived or died. The A happened because he went somewhere,met someone who tempted him,started talking and she "seemed" to understand. One thing led to another and they started emailing and talking on the phone. Finally he just decided that things were so bad at home and he felt like he had nothing to lose so he started going out of town once a month (supposedly to play golf)to see her. He confessed later that he never loved her and really never had any feelings for her. He was using her to try and escape his problems. He discovered that you can't escape your problems and that an A only makes more problems. I honestly believe that this will not happen to us again. We have both made changes -we treat each other like we did back when we first fell in love. Now not only do we love each other we truly "like" each other. I will never forget what he did to us and to me but I will not let it stop us from moving forward and living a happy life together. Time heals the pain and after a little over a year I can honestly say that this is true. My H is showing me in everyway he can that he is sorry and he won't hurt me like that again. Pfroglady

Sue,

very good topic. I will throw my two cents in as well. My first marriage i was 21 and only been with the women that i had married. I never strayed and remained faithful to her. She had a PA and wanted a D. I meet my 2nd wife, and remained faithful to her during the courtship and also marraige. I have only been with two women and i have been married to both of them. I deem sex as something special to be shared with someone you deeply care about. I know it sounds really sappy, but that is my story and i am sticking to it.........
I believe that people can only change only if they really want to...............
OMO

Sue,
I believe anybody can change, but they have to want to.

rayanne

Its just not black and white is it?

For so long I felt like affairs were because of something missing. either in the relationship or within the person. Like they were merely a symptom of a problem. My old analogy... a fever and an infection. You could treat the fever and temporarily it will subside but resurface. treat the infection and the fever is gone.

The first affair, well, that I know of. The one he claims never happend yet was talking to a friend of mine about it while she was talking about hers with him. I completely forgave. as a matter of fact I didnt care. It was during a horrible time in our marriage and quite honestly I not only expected it I actually prayed for it. I hoped he would find someone else and leave me alone. He was abusive in every way and I hated him so clearly he felt unloved and wanted to feel wanted, apreciated and passion. I explained to him I understood this and forgive him. he still adamantly denied it. so I figured that was his lie to carry... I offered him freedom from it.

What gets me is the situation with the nasty ho when I was pregnant. things were going well between us. communication was good. every thing seemed good. other then the fact he was still drinking which he needed to detox off of. he didnt want to leave while I was pregnant. Thats what took me by surpise everything seemed so good.

I thought perhaps the cheating and the drinking go hand in hand. both escapes. the drinking was no longer working as an escape. He was addicted but got nothing out of it. So maybe thats where she came in. not to blow my own horn but she couldnt hold a candle to me. A friend of mine told me I am the epitome of the t-shirt "all this and brains too". The only thing she had to offer that I didnt, was she didnt have to be a mom. she could go off on rides with him and talk with him at work. Hey I was the babysitter. She has a tattoo and is a bit trashy. I grew up in a privelleged family and I guess am just the kind ya marry and show off on your arm. I dont know if I would feel better if she was at least better then me. actually I think the big plus with her was she was totally cool with his drinking. He didnt have to be responsible and he could feel 'normal'?

So here we are and things are great and have been for about 9 months straight. so are they really... this time?

I do understand having feelings for someone else while the marriage feels like its been destroyed for years. I was guilty of developing feelings for someone. But the guilt I had for just having feelings was overwhelmingly horrible. My respect for myself, my beliefs, my vows, and quite honestly logic is why I made the choice to not act on feelings. I guess is why I was able to forgive him before.

we were married young... but he did lots of oat sowing before.

I dont know... I miss the innosence. Where you are faithful because you are just so darn in love with each other that no one can catch your eye. It feels like now... we're faithful because were suposed to be to hold the marriage together. for the sake of the children, for the sake of the marriage. Is that just what it evolves into?

Do you really love this person? how can you love someone you find out you dont really know? oh Gosh dont go to that damn love is a choice... sorry I am sick of relationship books, sick of self help books, sick of therapy terms. I dont want to be asked to look on the board and find a feeling word.

I just want to be happy. I just want to love my h and know who he really is and that I am not loving an illusion. I dont want to wonder if things are so great because someone else is temporarily filling some void of his. I am tired of feeling on the fence... holding my breath and trying not to hurt. I want to know things really are what they appear.

I didnt insist on him not talking to her or seeing her because I figured that would just make her that much more desirable. And make me the bad person that ended it. I wanted to know that if he ended it it was because of his choice. I didnt want him to choose me because he would lose his family. I didnt want her to think it was my choice not his. I dont want to live out my marriage with the belief I am second fiddle with leverage.

I guess I am rambling...

OMO
thats exactly how I feel about it!
glad to know there are men that do too.

which then makes me wonder if maybe he and I just arnt right for each other?
I hate pornos. he likes them and I am sure the ho does too. she has a thing for Harleys and hey he has one.

Rayanne,
I know people can change if they really want to and really try to. I think he has... but how do you know once you have been fooled?

I guess all I can do is live life in the moment. If I get bombed again (and everything comes to a head eventually) then I know I can handle it. I can get knocked down and get back up. I am not really sure on how to not be suspicious now though. He is going on a ride next weekend for 4 days. This could very well be him and the ho's anual trip? Not that I could even go on this ride being we have children and someone has to be responsible... I dont even get invited. I dont know I could stomach it. these are his friends at work he goes with. ones he drank with. ones who I know have had to see him be inapropriate.

Sunday was a family bbq for his union. He said he didnt want to go so we didnt. but then a friend of his called and asked him to come. then came and picked him up. WE were not included. if he changed his mind because he had to simply because his friend asked... then why not bring the family? little things make me go hmmm

Sue

Sue,
I know you hate to be suspicious but sometimes you have to be.
Sounds like he is getting used to you being a babysitter again. The newness of the new child has worn off and now its your responsibility to bring the kids up while he does his thing.
I say you ask him not to go. That you need help with the kids and can not miss him for 4 days.
Then let him compromise. What can they do for 4 days anyway?
Its only fair. If that does not work let him know you want 4 days to go to Hopefuls. Boy, Sue ann's hubby sure stood on his head when she came down. That ol-boy stopped his shananagins when other "men" were around his wife..
Rondo

Oh my gosh Ron!!!!

He would flip if I even tried to say he couldnt go! he has been planning this for months. he even got new pipes!
they do it every year. Its the only big Harley run he goes on. He would probably laugh at me if I said no.
ONE time I told him no to something he wanted to do. He wanted to go watch a football game. now he had been going to the games and watching them at friends houses etc every weekend. ONE time I said you know I have a final tomorrow I really need you here to take care of the kids so I can study. He pouted the whole time. pissed and moaned well into the evening. I heard about it for so long LOL. yeah I am controlling! of course I know all the football fans are probably all aghast at the nerve of me. I just decided that I wasnt going to say "go ahead go" when what I really really needed was for him to stay. Its not like the Chargers werent losing all the games at the time any how [Wink]

what do they do for four days? well before they would drink, look at bikes, drink, eat, drink, buy stuf, drink.... for four days. AND he already paid the 300 for the room. His mom says he calls her everytime and talks about how miserable he is because I am not there and how much he misses me.

I was thinking I would take the kids out of town for the weekend. I even told him I was going to drop in on him at some point maybe. But honestly I dont think I will. dont want to look like I am checking up on him, like I would be [Wink]

. I know he makes me out to be this controlling w who dosnt let him do anything. Because when he dosnt feel like doing things with his friends he just says that I wont let him. According to him they are always giving him a hard time for me not letting him out to go on all the rides they go on. He says he tells them he has a family etc. But they dont seem to get it. They do tend to neglect their own kids and go on all these trips and take their w's too. I wonder if he really wants to go on these trips and runs it past me the way he does to see what I think. I usually agree with him and say well you have a responsiblity and a big family that you choose not to neglect the way they do all the time. maybe thats how he feels I am controlling!?!?

Ron I would love to go to Fl and see everyone. I couldnt leave my kids for 4 days.
my H would have a heart attack!!! He always thought somone here at the board was going to steal me away LOL
he dosnt know I come and post once in a while either. you know what... he wouldnt let me!

I wondered often how much this great feeling around here is ONLY because of the new baby.

He does help out around the house alot now. He makes dinner every other night and has completely taken over making sure the kids are bathed every night. He seems happy and at peace.

I also think about the self fulfilling prophecy...

I'm glad you mentioned the self fulfilling prophecy...kept me from having to bring it up. It was what crossed my mind a couple of times while ready your posts.

You, of all people know we have choices, especially when it comes to our feelings and fears. I say this...if you are happy with your life, you like the family dynamics, taking care of the kids and loving the Harley riding little fella then choose to be happy with it. Make the choice to trust him Sue, don't choose to muck up your life by doubting him. Heck, if he misbehaves again you will get the chance then to worry and fret about it. Until you have hard cold evidence that there is trouble don't go borrowing trouble.

My Dad had a tendency to cheat or do out of character things when drunk. As a sober man though he wouldn't tolerate it of himself. I'm betting your husband is the same way. Relax and instead of worrying about what he is doing for 4 days start thinking about what you are going to do to him after he has been gone for 4 days. I can give you some ideas!!! I think I could anyway, it's been so darn long I'd have to dig way down deep to retrieve those memories. Have fun, enjoy your family and worry when you come face to face with something to worry about.
Cathy

THANKS Cathy!

going back to choosing to trust.

my little head just gets to spinning... knowing he works with the nasty ho.

The fact he isnt drinking any more is what I hold on to.

thanks for cracking me up and making me smile [Big Grin]

Sue

Any time Sue. It's easy to get side tracked by ugly thoughts. I do it quite often myself. To me, your life sounds near perfect. What more could a woman ask for than near perfect? Enjoy it woman!!! God bless you, your children and that man you married.
Cathy

Sue,
I don't know. I think MGoBlue would argue your title statement. I think some people can change. I think they have to want to badly enough. It seems like this happens once you realize what you had---when it is gone. In my h's case, he's not willing to give anything up. Like a kid in the candy store, he wants it all---at not or minimal cost to him, and as painlessly as possible.

GG

People have affairs for all kinds of reasons...not the least being because THEY CAN.
The opportunity arise's and then there really is little turning back especailly with men...an erection has very little conscience..

Royce(MICK)

Sorry Mick, I don't buy that one. I would venture to guess that most men have erections, but they don't all have affairs. It's a character flaw, not just hormones. And my h was seeking out ow when he didn't have the erections.

GG

Since I am being cheated on right now I'm probably in a very biased mode but dammit, if people know they like to cheat and are going to do it, (and cause immense pain to loved ones and turn their lives upside down) then:

A. DON'T EVER GET MARRIED

B. DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN

C. GET TESTED (and tested, and tested)

IMHO, if that's what people want to do (cheat) then they should do society a favor and forego the pleasures of the more emotionally mature: marriage and procreation.

Men have brains as well as errections; it's a CHOICE. By saying it's not a choice, it "just happened" etc. we insult all people, male and female, who may be tempted at times but DO make the conscious decision not to cheat.

I would say (sadly) "once a cheater, more likely than not, always a cheater." Not that I want to believe this, just that I don't see much evidence to the contrary around me. [Frown]

I'm absolutely sure there are those who grow enough emotionally to change that pattern, and I applaud them. I just don't think they're in the majority.

Amen Velvet! My ex never changed his colors in 23 years despite ascertions to the contrary, and he was a serial adulterer, but that was him. I recognize that under the right circumstances there could be exceptions.

Having said that, I want to say to Sue that I also agree with Cathy about your case. You can't be asking yourself this question about your ex if you also want to trust him and have the kind of marriage that you want. For right now, until proven otherwise, he is committed to you. You can't live questioning and wondering all the time. It would be counterproductive to the type of relationship you are trying to build and you would have a self-fulfilling prophecy. Instead, focus on your marriage, on him, on you. Don't go looking for problems that aren't there. Enjoy your husband that came back to you, enjoy your children and the family that you have together. Keep building something solid and have faith that no matter what happens, things always work out in the end for the best.
MC

I could not resist this topic as the former spouse of a cheater...

The comedian Robin Williams once said,"God gave man a brain and a penis and not enough blood to use both of them at the same time."

I agree with Velvet in the respect that cheating is a conscious CHOICE. To imply the a philandering husband is simply the victim of a wayward penis amazes me. What happened to the ability to reason? Without it, we are no different than the animals that act strictly on instinct. Cheaters, whether male or female are always quick to justify their behavior...but they seldom, if ever, take responsiblity for the behavior and often blame the left behind spouse for their behavior. Often the reason of "unmet needs" is given as a reason for the affair. We ALL have unmet needs at times but not everyone looks outside the marriage to fulfill them. It is impossible for one human being to entirely meet the needs of another 100% of the time. It cannot be done... it is merely a justification.

It's time that the cheaters came up with something new and original for an excuse...but they never do...

Loco,
LOL Robin William's statement had me really laughing! So true... [Big Grin]

I'm going to ask a ?
This is in general.I repeat IN GENERAL.
You always hear men say,that the wife doesn't give it up as much as she used to.
Remember the joke about newlywed sex?
Why in the begging of a relationship(so to say)Are most women ready willing and able to go to bed with a man?Then as time goes on,I guess you get used to us,and the sex gets to be less and less.It's not new.It's not exciting.It doesn't have that sence of danger.
Sue,I remember you saying you had to have sex with your H alot.What was it 3 times a day,some days.

I got married when I was 20.I didn't cheat on my wife.Until 20 months after she left.One month for each year of marriage.
In the beggining she would make the 1st move.That lasted about a year.Then I had to make the move.

I happen to think that these days,people dont give a sh#t.I mean the media has every body cheating.There are dating sites that offer wives.
Adult friend finder.com ,,,Ashley Madison.com. "MY H goes out of town on buiz,I'm looking for some fun"Things like that.They show off alot in their profiles.
There was a dicussion on the radio this morn about a company that will have playboy model type girls aproach your So to see if he'll take the bait.

People change when they're ready.I quit smoking pot when I was a senior in HS.I ran out of pot,and money.I step out the door to walk to school.It was nice out.I said I feel really good.I haven't smoked since.I quit drinking when I was 27.I went 13 years with out a drink.I stopped drinking again 2 years ago.I may have a beer or 2 in a social situation.

Sue,think positivly.
Don't go asking for trouble.Taking care of yourself and the kiddies is more important.

Think good thoughts
Hug your kids
peace

______________________________________________
"You always hear men say,that the wife doesn't give it up as much as she used to.
Remember the joke about newlywed sex?
Why in the begging of a relationship(so to say)Are most women ready willing and able to go to bed with a man?Then as time goes on,I guess you get used to us,and the sex gets to be less and less.It's not new.It's not exciting.It doesn't have that sence of danger."
__________________________________________________

Well, if you're really looking for an answer to that question, I think the reply from a lot of women would be that it's not that it's not new or exciting or doesn't have a sense of danger; it's that in many cases the H, who was at his best in the beginning of the relationship, is now more often than not belching whenever he feels like it, farting out loud, not shaving as often, or even taking a shower as often, needs a haircut, wears the same ratty 'favorite' T shirt all the time...... You get the picture.

Once my H actually walked into the room, dramatically lifted his leg and farted loudly, then laughed and said "Wow! That was a real crowd-pleaser!" I told him that may go over real big at work (and it apparently does; a bunch of electric co. Linemen) but not here. It may be funny once...
________________________________________________

"People change when they're ready.I quit smoking pot when I was a senior in HS.I ran out of pot,and money.I step out the door to walk to school.It was nice out.I said I feel really good.I haven't smoked since.I quit drinking when I was 27.I went 13 years with out a drink.I stopped drinking again 2 years ago.I may have a beer or 2 in a social situation."
__________________________________________________

About the pot-
I really think (IMHO) pot is a transitional drug - either you go on to other drugs or you stop altogether. It can be very psychologically addicting though.

Alcohol addiction is very real. If you are an alcoholic (not you personally) you will not ever be able to stop completely without help - a LOT of help. You also will NEVER be able to drink occasionally. Sooner or later the symptoms will all be back in full force, as it is a progressive disease. If you can stop easily and start again, without it escalating or affecting you or others adversely you don't have a problem with alcohol and did not overcome an addiction, so it shouldn't be hard to do; more like a decision you just want to drink less.

Velvet

Alcoholic with 19 yrs. Recovery

I agree with Velvet in the respect that cheating is a conscious CHOICE. To imply the a philandering husband is simply the victim of a wayward penis amazes me.

Dont recall anyone saying that actually...

Royce(MICK) [Smile]

[ April 17, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Mick ]

Velvet,What I was trying to say is.No matter how much help is offered to you,if you don't want to quit,you wont.

Womenscentral.com had a little artical on, should you stay with a cheater? I didn't read it.

Think good thoughts
Hug your kids
peace

LM,
What was the joke about newlywed sex? Is it clean enough to tell or would I be sorry that I asked?

rayanne

Rayanne,you of all people should know better then to ask.
Of course it's clean.
Actually it's called the stages of marriage.Here's a short version.

1st stage is newly wed sex.That's where your doing it anywhere,everywhere and very often,kitchen,living room,on the washing mechine.
2nd stage is bed room sex.That's where you keep it in the bed and is less often.
as the years go by you enter into the
3rd stage.Hallway sex.That's where as you pass each other in the hallway,you say F you.

Velvet,have you had a drink at all?Or do you pick up a glass of water,when toasting the bride and groom?I have a friend that wont touch a drop.She's scared that she'll get right back to hwere she was.

Think good thoughts
Hug your kids
peace

Oh my goodness peeps, there were some smokin keyboards yesterday [Big Grin]

GG,
I think you are right. Reality just dosnt hit them COMPLETELY until they lose it all. They can get shaken up a little but that passes. I think my calm reaction in the past contributed to leaving him in a state of not fully realizing the impact of his mistakes. Where as when I flipped and said thats it, hope you are happy and hope it was worth losing EVERYTHING for. It really seemed to wake him up. I think that drunken fog didnt help. He really does seem now like the person I fell in love with only much much more. perhaps mature being he isnt 18 any more [Wink]

I never cheated... I dont think thats due to the fact I dont have a penis and dont need an erection personally. However I do believe there are people that do cheat just because they can. Its a choice they make.

Velvet,
yep! couldnt agree more. Makes you really wonder why on earth they get married. Do they listen to the vows? if thats not what they wanted they need to find a fellow swinger.
Congrats on your 19 years in recovery!!! thats amazing! although I cant say I fully understand, never been in those shoes, but I have watched my H and seen the struggle up close. also learned more then I ever wanted to learn about addiction at Betty Ford.

"I would say (sadly) "once a cheater, more likely than not, always a cheater." Not that I want to believe this, just that I don't see much evidence to the contrary around me. I'm absolutely sure there are those who grow enough emotionally to change that pattern, and I applaud them. I just don't think they're in the majority."

I think once a person crosses a line its that much easier to cross again. thats partly why I started wondering about my topic question.

Mary, I KNOW you and Cathy and everyone else who said that are right. I kept telling myself that. Sometimes I get feeling like a fool. Like am I just fooling myself or is he just better at fooling me now? I know its fear and that as been my weakness before. I try to ask myself what am I really feeling. I listend to her tell him how to keep things going with out me finding out. She told him dont call me from home and if you do just push a bunch of 3s or something so she cant hit redial and find out it was me. Lets just save this for work and other places... these things will play in my head and I have to make a big effort to stop them. Not always. just when something that seems suspicious happens these things rush back to my mind. Like when he is late home from work and says oh I had a late relief... The other day he got home really late from a drs appt which is right by her house. it turned out he was actually surprising me with something nice. I still havent gone on a ride with him just around here because I keep hearing her going on and on about how she loves every thing about the back seat of his bike (in an orgasmic tone). She bragged on and on about how she is the queen of that seat etc. they both went on about how she has racked up the most miles. They talked about our upcomming son and how when they go on rides the first thing he is going to teach his boy is you dont ask any questions and you dont tell your mom or something like that... it made me sick! especially because when he bought that bike he tried to sell it to me by saying he thought of it as a way we could get closer. go on rides the way we used to on the ninja. it will be our ... so any how I try to think good thoughts. I try to remember my al-anon stuff about putting the toxic thoughts out of your mind like pulling a thorn from your hand. most of the time it works and I do feel on cloud 9 especially with my little boo boo bear. every once in a while I wonder if I am being fooled again because we were getting along really well when I discoverd them. This time it hurt me as apposed to before when I just could care less. I dont know I guess its the fact that he admits to nothing! that he still adamantly insists there was nothing going on! If he cant be honest about it then how do I really know its over? I just hold onto he appears to be living life right and he seems happier then I have ever seen him in our 16 years together.

I really believe things are good and I dont want to mess it up by being suspicious and thinking ill thoughts. Its so darn hard to get on the same page at the same time. In the past it seemed like when one of us was trying the other was sick of trying. now it feels like we are trying but it dosnt really feel like we have to try, like its just great. I think part of me feels like OH NO things are great whats wrong? LOL almost like if it seems to good to be true it probably is.

Loco Ono,
LOL! imagine all the brain damage they suffer due to gravity!

Sal,

my gosh what a good memory. no loss of blood to your brain.
actually when we cut down to 3x a day it was a good compromise. It used to be like 6x a day. My counselor felt my H was using it in place of alcohol. He dosnt do that anymore. Which also made me wonder what was going on with him. Mr sex addict hasnt been a sex addict anymore. He just really seems to be at peace. He does smoke a lot more though [Roll Eyes]

I guess he has to have one crutch.

ok heres my take on your question. comming from someone who only has one notch on the belt LOL. but hey I have done a lot of listening over the years [Wink]

Men are more romantic in the begining. They take their time. Later it becomes this ok baby I am sprung come take care of me. It becomes a chore! Like Ok, I have to do the dishes, clean the floor, do the laundry, clean the bathroom, do my h, clean up the dog mess, cook dinner, do my h, bathe the kids, straighten the house, pack lunches, do my h, get one hour of sleep start my day over, wake up to do my H, make breakfast....

In the begining we didnt have all these chores of everyone wanting something from you. After a while its like you are just someone that everyone wants something from and sex isnt for you anymore its for your hormonally challenged H who really dosnt care if you are sick or how tired you are because hey he is sprung and therefore the center of the universe.

When you feel good, beautiful, sexy, wanted for your whole package, you feel more in the mood. When you are feeling those "in love" feelings. When women (IN GENERAL) feel "in love" they want to be close. sex isnt just sex then. Oh sure on occaision there is the hormones. But for the most part its alot more about emotions. to me any how.

Oh my gosh, is anyone still reading this or awake? LOL
see what one cup of coffee can do to me hee hee.

thinking postive
having good thoughts
hugging my boo boo bear and snuggle bugs
Sue

Sal,

an alcoholic cant drink "socially" they will end up where they left off and worse. There is no one drink with them. If they fall down they have to get back up and just keep going forward. The residual affect of having a drink is much worse then what they could possibly get out of a drink.

I have heard of people saying they have dealt with the inner problem that was what they were self medicating for and now drink socially. But I dont know how that could really work with a true alcoholic. I supose there are differing views. According to Dr West the alcoholics brain is diferent and functions diferently. its pretty complex. sometimes I wish I could go back hear some of those lectures again. they tought us so much each day of family week it was impossible to absorb it all.
There is diferent levels of alcoholism. My H was physically addicted went into seizures if he didnt drink. had to drink a large amount by a certain time daily or would start going through withdrawals.
no matter how much time goes by with him sober, if he takes a drink he has to deal with very strong cravings both mentally and physically. Its just not worth starting the battle over at watching the clock minute by minute, hour by hour.

Sue

Sue,
I can tell you something about cheating that I went through when I was single but still "with" someone who I thought I would marry someday.
I know for fact if I had married this poor woman that I would have cheated on her all the time. The presidant had already been set.
I feel that if a woman finds her guy cheated before marriage and marry's him anyway, she is doomed.

Now when I decided to get married the whole thing changed. I made a promise to myself that I would never cheat and when I took my vows, they were the clincher. In my 10 yrs with ex I never cheated. Never wanted to.

With my LF, even though we broke up really 7 months ago, neither one of us has been with someone else. Reason for me was that I still thought we had a shot and I did not want to cover my ass with some explanation as to why if we got back together that I could not "control" myself.

Again, I think and have seen where infidelity during the marriage can pop up again if the cheating partner feels that rush again of getting away with it.
I hate to say that but having been there it was a rush. Blowing the girl off for my girlfriend was also a rush. There was no fear of commitment because I had my GF.

Now then come the psycho's. Everything is hunky dory until you break it off. Had that happen too and thats also a scary factor.
I know you have heard his conversations but did you ever tell him?

I'm sure they hurt you a great deal or you would not be talking about it.
Cathy and the others are right in some regards.
I also think that he should be more responsible to you in reagrds of honesty and stop pulling this control crap out of his pocket when he feels your snooping.
Just because he has not admitted his indescretion does not mean you are stupid and IMHO that should be known.

Take it for what its worth from a former cheater.
Rondo

Thanks Ron,

yeah it hurt. Especially because when this happend I was pregnant. My imagination went wild. being I was 9 months pregnant at the time I listend to this conversation I imagined what they must of been doing on all these rides. I imagined them doing all this nasty freaky stuff I would never do and laughing at me and how lousy the sex must be with me being I was pregnant...it still hurts sometimes. not always but sometimes, like when I started this thread.

yes he knows I listend to the conversation. I listend for a long time before I finally spoke up on the phone. He was drunk at the time. I just question how much alcohol really affects someone. I mean yeah I know it really affects someone but does it release their inner feelings that they otherwise hide? My counselor said some people can be made mean by alcohol and are not themselves under the influence.

any how even though I listend to what they were saying he swears nothing was going on. That I wasnt meant to hear that conversation and they wouldnt have talked that way in front of me. I said of course not. but you shouldnt be talking that way period! infront, behind, over, under, any where! we did have some long talks. Then I dropped it when I felt he understood. He says the things they were saying was just drunk BS. That the only time she was on his bike was once around the block when he was at a friends house who she was engaged to at the time. But they didnt sound sarcastic when they were talking about all the miles they racked up together and at that time he was off on rides every night. now he isnt going on rides or even going out with his friends.

The previous affair he wont admit to. When things were really really bad between us. He was talking to a friend of mine about it. crying about how I will leave him if I found out and how this woman is crazy etc. I didnt need to be told. He was comming home after 5am not a real brain drainer there. When I told him she told me about their conversations he then said well he was just saying that to her. That he felt so unwanted by me he wanted her to think someone wanted him. Since she was talking about her affairs... nothing I was or am buying.

Its the whole lack of honesty and my not able to prove one way or the other he isnt being honest other then its just ludicrous to believe what he says. When he found out about my developing feelings for someone else I was honest. I answered all his questions and told the truth about my feelings and everything.

When I reflect on my own feelings of what I went through when my heart was unfaithful. I know with out a doubt that is a place I never ever want to go again. I never want to feel that inner conflict again. So I dont know if maybe he feels the same way now or not.

ok I forgot whatever it was I was going to say after I read your post...

Sue

Sue,
The only way to find out if he does feel the same way is to talk about it.
One thing LF has bought out in me is me.
I have a job where I am pretty much alone with my thoughts all the time. Computer rooms are pretty lonely places.
My ex watched as over the years I slowly kept more and more to myself.

LF makes me talk. She probes and pokes. Makes my head spin sometimes with her atty like ways of making me talk.
I swear sometimes she is running circles around me. But I like it. I express my fears and wants and desires more. She has always been super honest with me.
Tells me everything that bothers her or concerns her.

My ex stopped that and come to think of it, never was very good at expressing herself hence all the lies and deceit with gg.
When all she had to tell me was the truth. How can you DB lies?
The truth I can handle. Its the not knowing that cause's everyone anxiety.
I told the truth to LF about my ex and why I did some of the things I did but she had anxiety that I would leave her for my ex.
So much so that she drove me away in other ways.
The self fulfilling prophecy.
Sure I could have made a play for ex over these 7 months.
Why waste my time with someone who still blames me for all her heartache?
Talk to the man and talk some more..
Ron

Ron,

I know you are right about talking to him.
He gets defensive. which then gets me hmmming on why so defensive. Part of me feels like I cant say anything because this is what I deserve. this is what I get for having feelings for someone else before. ya know the infamous what comes around goes around. I guess part of me is afraid that he will get some sort of pleasure out of seeing this hurts me being he was hurt by me.

A while back we got in an argument about my screename for my email. being its my actual name he thinks I did that so someone could find me if they wanted to. no I just hate thinking up screennames thats all. I know what someone he was referring to. I reacted and spouted off about the nasty ho (sorry Mick she earned her name) throwing accusations.... I know I shouldnt have done that, I of all people... anyhow he just said well maybe its your turn to stuff things down etc. so I fight with myself.

Sue

[ April 18, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Sue ]

Mick,
"The opportunity arise's and then there really is little turning back especailly with men...an erection has very little conscience.."

My counselor told me an erection only means the equipment is in proper working order, dosnt mean you have to use it.......

Yes and he may have also added that a lot of men would have gone ahead and tested it anyway "just to make sure"...

Sue,

Well of course it's a choice and I never said it was'nt,I said by the time it has reached that stage for men at least (not all but most..)it is too late...the choice not to have one night stands and affairs with others it taken long before this point is reached and those that intend keeping to their commitment to another dont allow themselves to be in compromising situations to begin with.(Sue et al believe me I am way to old in the tooth and educated to believe an erection drives every man to to sex or that an erection even signifys desire because it does'nt it signifys arousal only and are different things...indeed a man can wake in the morning and have a erection which is'nt brought on by desire but by pressure in the bladder)
my comment about erections was not a justification
or excuse just and observation that by the time this is happening at an opportune moment then most men will go ahead and have sex....ergo the comment an erect penis has no conscience....
Kingdoms have been thrown away for a few grabbed moments of illicit sex.....

Royce(MICK)

Mick,

sorry if I insulted your inteligence. It was the combination of that statement along with the one about having afairs because they can, that lead to my interpretation.

"the choice not to have one night stands and affairs with others it taken long before this point is reached and those that intend keeping to their commitment to another dont allow themselves to be in compromising situations to begin with"

this was what I was trying to make my H understand when he was swearing up and down he never touched her. There are many lines that are crossed before you reach the 'insert penis here' sign. To me whether he consumated this relationship yet or not is beside the point. his behavior, speaking purley of what I listend to, crossed many lines. Being he wouldnt discuss it with me and insists it was nothing but drunk talk makes me wonder who he really is and if I really know him.

I do believe people can change. I believe people can trip and fall down. at that point of either falling or turning off their beaten path, they can decide where it is they want to go and whether or not they liked where they were at. It dosnt have to define who you are.
It just seems if someone is staying faithful because they are suposed to but really liked being a cheater its not going to work. By the time they reach the point of actually physically cheating they have reached a comfort level with it.
Even if he manages to control himself, just him wanting to be elsewhere is unerving.

rambling again...

I am having a good day though [Smile]

Sue

Sue,
I so agree with you. It is totally unnerving when my h tells me he's not sure if he can stop. On the other hand, there's a mini breakthrough in the fact that he's being somewhat honest. However, I don't understand why he doesn't just CHOOSE to stop and then get help to support him and help him stick to the decision.

Mick's comments were not only misunderstood by you, but by myself as well. I thought he was making terribly flip comments, until he explained better.

People do not have affairs because they can, or because they cannot keep their plumbing in their pants. They have affairs to fill a hole inside of them by seeking out the "feeling", the high, in the all the wrong places. It's not just about sex. In my h's case he loves the adoration he gets from strangers. He takes this as real because he believes that we have to love him (or say we do) because we're his family. He doesn't realize that unconditional love is given from free will and not from being held hostage by it. The last ho not only hung all over him, she had her kids doing it too, further reinforcing his belief that they must truly love him.

Therein lies my dilemma and pain. I give this love freely and it's tossed in the dirt, yet I still love the person that I married with the hole exposed. When I take the angry/hurt wife out of the picture, and am objective I see a person hurting and starving for some kind of understanding. But it's hard to keep myself in that objective place, because I am emotionally involved with him, and have been hurt myself, but this time I am making a conscious effort not to wallow in the pain. As long as I stay in that detached place, I have empathy for him. When I stray back to hurt wife role, I feel pain for ME.

And I can tell you, that the longer I spend detached, and outside of the hurt wife role, the easier it is for me to view the whole thing (hole thing [Wink]

) very clinically. It's easier on him too because he doesn't feel my wrath and pain.

Flip the coin, if he doesn't get a good dose of my wrath and pain will it impact him enough, or shock him into reality? It's the age old dilemma---like the problem of detaching---how much distance is too much distance---to where we become invisible, and they just carry on their merry way until life hits them over the head like a ton of bricks and they hit bottom, suddenly realizing all that they lost, and it's too late?

It's hard to walk that tightrope between the 2 places, but it is getting easier. The kids also feel a great deal of empathy for their dad, a tiny bit of anger and a little bit of pity. But not much sadness for themselves. They were worried about me, but realize I'm in a better mental place this time so they are coping nicely. Their biggest concern is if I will get to keep the house so they can have a "home base". Neither of them are acting out like they did before, either. We all learned a great deal from the last round of this.

Now, I am noticing that my reactions have had an eerie effect on him. It's like a 180 from my reactions 3 years ago--no whoop ass, no begging pleading, screaming. No tossing him out or emptying his closet on the bathroom floor. Even in the first couple days at ground zero, I was much different than I was last time. He has even commented on that. I cried the first day a few times, but not since. I have not gone into paralysis like I did before. I have a normal (not under or excessive) appetite, but I am sticking to my low carb diet. I am sleeping (except for the hotel bed on the business trip, but I always have trouble on the road.) Last night I went out with my friends and won $25 at Bunco. I have faith in God, and in myself. And I believe that God truly does help those who help themselves. I know I will be ok no matter what.

Last time there were days on end that I didn't get out of bed and I cried for hours at a time. I didn't eat or drink anything but a few sips of water, or sleep for 5 or 6 days at a time. I spent alot of my waking hours at the throne of the porcelain goddess. And the anger spewed out of me. The things I said were very horrible, inappropriate, without filters and in places where I had no business saying them. I was a trainwreck.

Well, I need to stop now, this is rambling, but I hope it makes some sense.

GG

GG,

your 'rambling' makes perfect sense.
actually what you had to say reminds me so much of where I was at in dealing with my H's alcoholism. It seemed so simple to me, you know you need help, go get it. The grand false myth of if you loved me you would quit or get help to.

Its easier to look at it clinically. it removes you from the victim place.

the first time he got help. when he went through BFC. I placed everything in the disease basket. for a good while I almost felt like ok I am over everything because this poor man has suffered so and nothing he did was his fault it was the disease. After a while... I started to feel anger again. Like BS you are not getting off that easy! you are responsible for what you did. the violence, forcing himself on me, verbal abuse... the mountain of crap.
When I saw so much bad stuff still happening while he was sober. Recovery is no bowl of cherries and at times in the begining was much harder then then before he got help. I kept reminding myself they said the first year would be the hardest and there would be times I would just wish he would go back to drinking.

I went through A LOT of internal conflict over the fact I still loved him after everything. I felt like such a fool. Like how pathetic could I be to go through all I have and still be here. I wanted to punish him by not loving him anymore. though at the time I didnt realize it. Too much anger for what I chose to let myself go through.

you are hurt by your love being tossed in the dirt. I hear you! I was angry that after all he had put me through, all we had put each other through, and were now going in a good direction.. he could be where he was with the nasty ho. I worked so hard to forgive him and it was so painful to stay with him and deal with the past. It just seemed like a huge slap in the face. Like there was no way he could have been sorry for what he did before.

It is a very good thing he has had his breakthrough and is being honest with himself and you. Its a very small step that preceeds many others. There is going to be much heartache ahead. Its a long path GG. One of the things I kept thinking about along the way is pretty much what Paul has said to you a couple of times. where are you going to be a few years down the road? its going to be painful in either direction in the begining. I had to get over and deal with the past regardless. I looked at it as do I really want to start over with someone else building an entire new house from scratch. Or would I be much further along by remodeling the one I have. five years down the road where would I be with each house? could I already be remodeling the new one when the one I have I could be past the remodeling stage, done decorating and having just what I want.

I do believe they do need to experience the wrath and pain. I think when I was so calm understanding and forgiving he didnt feel the impact. Its part of the consequences of their choices to reap what they sow. I dont think people should be protected from the pain they caused, or their growth is stunted. I know this from being on both sides of that one.
When I had developed feelings for someone else I thought well its only human nature. I was abused and beaten down. felt like I was drowning and he was the one that grabbed my hand and pulled my head above water. I felt all that mattered was I didnt act on my feelings. I was faithful physically. To me my H should of just understood that. had I not seen how much pain that caused him I could have been stuck there. hey I had choices. I could have sought help through counseling instead of numbing myself the way I did. getting my emotional needs filled the way I did allowed me to be stuck in my bad situation. I can see where I rationalized and justified.
I dont think I have fully forgiven myself for it either. I am trying to not judge myself then by who I am now. I dont want his pain to all be for not and I dont want my pain to be for not. Its not so much about the price you pay (guilt or hurt) from someones wrath and not wanting to feel that again but about opening your eyes and getting real understanding. shoot I cant express what I am trying to say. maybe it will come to me later.

oh that detaching (how much) question has been on my mind before. Sure I get over things pretty well. I can detach very well. But just how much am I suposed to go through? In the past I got over nearly being killed in his rages I dont even know how many times. sure thats not a life I can go back to. but I dont know when you say ok thats it no more. when you are used to forgiving and letting go. how many bombs? I am faced with the possiblity of him falling down and going back to drinking. do I leave then? do I just do like I did the last time and just go on with my life letting his problem be his problem and I just dont really have a partner until he decides he is ready to get back up again. Maybe thats what I am signed up for. for now I am living in the moment. just enjoying what I have today. theres just no guarantees about tomorrow in any situation.

you know I think my diferent reactions had an effect on my H as well. by me going nuts and vandalizing his Harley I think in some strange way made him realize I care. where as my old understanding calm nature made him feel like I didnt. he used to complain nothing affected me. oh things affected me I just kept it to myself.
was afraid sharing my pain made me very vunerable.
The next day after the nasty ho bomb when I listend to him talking to her on the phone telling her what I did to the bike. She was saying how she wouldnt have done that (yeah right) but she bet I felt much better now. nope! I felt like dirt doing that. had to force myself. it wasnt me. do not like destruction. I wanted to hurt them and thats the only thing that popped into my head. not a behavior I intend on making mine though.

careful on the low carbs. I think it can make you feel irratable and depressed. so watch yourself. I know you spent 16 years being a nurse but sometimes medical people make the worse patients [Wink]

take care GG
Sue

Sue,
Re: the low carbs...I come from a long line of diabetic Indians and Italians. I cannot metabolize carbs like most people. I do really well and feel lots better on low carb diets, although I get bored because I miss the breads and pastas and spuds. But, I'd rather give them up than my vision or my kidneys (or a leg---like my gram did). I do drink about a gallon of water per day to flush out the purines.

I am doing OK mentally, but had a mild set back last night...

H told me on the way home from work yesterday that his boss was worried about me causing a scene in h's lab. Apparently a couple people have told him about the "rumors". I was angry. I had urged my h to talk to his boss about what was going on and that he was getting help right from the get go, before he finds out from someone else....but he would not. Once again, he should have listened to me. Get this...the boss told him there's nothing wrong with ofice romances as long as it doesn't impact the work. Another case of flexible ethics and morals...

So, I asked his boss to meet with me today. I apologized for confronting my husband in his lab that day I got the note, and I showed him the note. He was floored. He wasn't told that the fooling around was going on at work. Or that my work is being impacted by this kind of thing. So, I told him my h has problems with addictions, gave him a few things to think about, told him my h is in therapy and I felt he needed to know that he is working on things. And assured him that I would not cause him any trouble.

I don't need my reputation being tarnished in this company. I have a lot of years here and a good reputation. I don't need the gossip any more than h's boss does. I really hope I get this other job. I'd sure like to be in the other building, away from all this crap.

Velvet,
Many congratulations on your recovery. I hope my h has a similar success.

Talk to you later,
GG

In my case, once has turned into always.... but we ALL know that's because of ME.... as soon as he hooks up w/ the right person, this will stop, right?

After we were married, I found out he'd slept with his friend's girlfriend when we were dating (but after he & I became serious)... I just blew this off as well we were dating altho I was hurt by it.

Then 3 yrs into marriage, he had a one night stand. (He never wanted to leave after this).
Also had kissy face on several occassions w/ another friend of ours.

7 yrs into marriage, he had short affair w/ client on one of his jobs. (He left & decided to come back 2 months later).

Now, there was another (if not more) affair since then,... with "Ms. Perfect" his co-worker. He has never admitted it. He admitted to out therapist "there have been affairs"... well, therapist already knew about the ones above so I assume he was talking about the otherS.

He is Passive agressive and still blames me for countless things all the way back to 18 years ago & going to Europe togther.

Now that I look back & remember, there were other times when we were dating when I would catch him at a party "talking" in a very private place w/ someone, or at least that's what they were doing when I came in (but I was calling his name)...

Guess I should have known, but I just wanted to be loved, enjoyed being with him, and his family.
He is a very likeable guy.