It seems a VERY good time to move!!!
Thank you all my friends for rallying around me when J decided to drop into a place that isn't the best place for an OW to drop into!
You have made me feel very cared for yet one more time in my life.
Previous thread:
Two Wolves
Pam - how ironic the title of your last thread was!
And how apt the parable - let's feed the "good" wolf on this thread, eh?
So - what's a nice big goal for Pam to start working on? Saving for a nice vacation? Throwing a big party for all your friends? Joining some more activities so you can expand you circle of friends? Learning to skydive? Dream big, girl - what have you always wanted to do?
Ellie
I did think of the irony when I posted the link to the previous thread.
I am in the process of kicking new goals around. Hope to have the thoughts clearer soon.
Hi Pam,
I just wanted to stop by with a hug. Looks like you've got a great group of friends here, and ignoring the "Two Wolves" is the way to go.
And Ellie you're on fire!
Hugs,
-H2H
Hey H2H,
Just in time for a glass. What is your preference?
Thank you for the hug.
Hee Hee...cute thread title BTW!! Love it!!
Where's my drink? Sheesh, I need a bottle!! Or maybe a few Cosmo's to start the thread rolling here.
I THOUGHT you might like the title Sassy!
I think we all need drinks after this afternoon and besides maybe the alcohol will kill the germs!!!
I realized on my drive home that I have not yet done the: N-E-K-K-I-D Done Dance. If I had I wouldn't have been giving D the benefit of the doubt that he posted to help, nor be disappointed to have it appear that he wasn't just posting to help but to stir things up.
Get dancing, girl!
Ellie
LOL
I know Ellie, I know!!
I actually think D and J posting and to see the support I have helped me a bit.
That and focus on coming up with some new goals for this year. There isn't going to be any mountain climbing though, despite admiring the heck out of you!!!
I know when you were posting all that I couldn't wait to read your next update.
Quote:
OK Everyone.........enough of this madness
Pam is over here now CLICK HERE
Maybe D & J will have the courtesy to leave her alone on her new thread!
Hey Tony,
Getting bossy!!!
You haven't came by for your water yet.
Pam,
I just wanted everyone to know where you were now, and end that craziness over there where the big bad wolf showed up!
Hi Pam,
I'm one of those people who always tries to see everyone's point of view. I've found it always helps me to remain objective.
I've read what went on today, and logged back off and went back to work for a while.
In my sit, DURING THE D, I purposely left certain things out that would have harmed me if the X had known about them. I even tried to disguise myself from him in a way so I could contend the person wasn't me, lol, if that ever came up in court. Until the D was final, I held back a bit.
But now that the D is done - I don't give a rat's A$$ whether or not the X or anyone else knows how I feel.
If I were you, I would feel entitled to post on MY thread without repercussions. If the X's HO were to post on my thread, I would hope that I could get PO'd about it (I would) but walk away, and ignore what the HO said. I would not give the HO the time of day. I would not respond to the HO. I would leave her to say whatever she pleased, but I would not waste my time responding to a HO.
So HO-HO-HO Pammie! Hope you're having a good day!
Good post HT,
Pam, where is J from.....I DA HO..........?????
Quote:
Pam,
I just wanted everyone to know where you were now, and end that craziness over there where the big bad wolf showed up!
Ok, I agree it wasn't pretty and I'm glad it has ended, BUT...I am also glad she got to see what some of the world thinks of what she and D did. There are no repercusions in the real world anymore because people just don't care. So she got to see what DBer's think of OW's.
I think it acted as a catharsis for me to have you all get out what I was thinking.
Hi Happy,
Actually I am having a good day. It had it's moments.
Ok hon...I think everyone has had their CATHARSIS for the day
...back to work- So, what ARE these goals you have been tossing around?? I know what ONE of them probably is but let's see some more? Have you tried Flyball yet?? Bet FB would love that!!
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{PAM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Big sloppy Dog kisses too
Beth
Hi Zoo, (Crazy Woman!)
I have enough irons in the fire with the dogs already. No way can I or FB take on more at this time.
I know you weren't here and I'm not sure I told you but the animal communicator says I'm dealing with the perspective of an abandoned dog that just didn't go through the shelter. So I have slowed things down with FB a bit and am giving him a breather.
As you do know I am working with several breeders now, one who is a biologist and long time sheltie breeder to work on the color genetics. It is fascinating.
I am learning about Reiki and crystal healing and want to pursue that further. I just got a hematite necklace and cleansed it last night. Wore it today.
As the shelties are making progress in their new fields I keep meeting more and more people and it helps me realize I am a people person and how much I am enjoying this journey I am on.
Wow, you guys are wonderful. I have had e-mails and people chatting, checking on me all evening.
Most are people who remember and know how I reacted in the past.
I did not get through without an emotional reaction. I sent D a one line e-mail right after J's two posts. That is what I was thinking of on the drive home.
So I know I'm still not ready for SC's Nekkid Dance. I'm still more into emotional knee jerk reactions than thinking.
Thought I would post it so you all see how NOT to react!
I will say D and I's communication sucked.
Subject: I gave you more credit
I thought you were really trying to help TWM, but it appears you and J just needed more entertainment.
At least it wasn't a book like D used to get in the past. Course I think back then he made a half way gesture of reading them and I doubt he does now days since he isn't speaking to me.
Tonight I am wiped out, hope I feel better tomorrow physically. This being sick just wears and drags you down.
I am going to bed to sleep on thoughts of a positive day tomorrow with no D or J in it!!!
Pam,
Tomorrow is a new day. Don't dwell on this anymore. It's done......so......do the dance!!!!
Seriously, you've given this way more time than it deserves.
Hi Quo,
Almost out of here.
I am actually not trying to rush through processing the feelings from this divorce as I feel stuffing feelings from my first divorce down inside me contributed a great deal to my depression, the horse dying was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
I look back at yesterday, still from this oh such fun sick haze and realize it was a challenge to the me I'm working on and in the end if I am never challenged I would never grow.
I didn't really meet it well. I slipped back into *expectations* mode. Because I always thought so highly of D I always looked to him to be right. This may sound silly but it is a very fundamental realization I needed to know to realize why even now after everything that went down, I still have *expectations* that he would be posting to genuinely try and help rather than stir stuff up.
I can't have expectations of other people, only the ones I set for myself. No matter how much I look up too or respect them, I can't *expect* of them.
I can't look back with a clear conscious on my first marriage. I tried everything I could think of and knew to try. BUT, I handled the situation very badly in the end and carried guilt and scars from that well into my second marriage. I finally am at peace with it, but it took a long hard look and a lot of misery before I achieved that peace.
My second marriage I am guilty of thinking too highly of my H and by doing that put unrealistic *expectations* on him that even when he opted for an affair and a divorce I STILL had these *expectations* of the person I thought so highly of behaving honorably. I realize the *expectations* that I couldn't let go of are a part of the reason it has taken me so long to move forward and yesterday showed me I STILL have them. I was surprised by J's posting mostly because I wouldn't have thought this is a place she would want to hang around other than to read my thread and get some kicks. But she didn't really bother me. That in itself is some progress.
What I realized this morning after some rest is what bothered me is I STILL have *expectations* that David is this kind, benevolent person and that he was posting to help rather than stir up. When that appeared to possibly not be the case I was hurt and that prompted the emotional knee jerk reaction.
I still do not understand why I put D on such a pedestal. Maybe because he came along at such a crazy, hurting time in my life and applied some of that analytical logic that he has exhibited here on the BB. He also seems to have a knack for picking up women in hurting marriages. I wonder what part of him can't enter an R in a normal manner, but in some way seems to need some different situations to be present for him to enter an R. Not my problem but something I never looked at previously.
I never looked at him as having his own agenda, or being a selfish person. I'm not saying he is in particular, everyone is selfish in some way. I didn't allow for that in my expectations of D. I believe that is why I wasn't too concerned when I married him that he would cheat on me. I never looked at his past actions as being selfish, self serving or an agenda to meet his needs at the expense of other people's pain.
He was always held up to this ideal that I had of him, which hurt both of us in the end. Yesterday it hurt me again, not badly and not anything that stayed with me. But it was still there which means I STILL have not totally released the *expectations* that D would only be doing a good thing. I know I have no clue as to why when he obviously showed me a whole other side to him that he is still rather on that pedestal I created. Maybe because it never hit me so in the face that a big part of my problem is the *expectations* that I have of D.
One thing I am grateful for, I wasn't very good at dbing but this marriage I tried like H*LL to save, even when I knew it was J he had turned to and J he had always blindly followed. I didn't give up. This time I can look back with a clear conscious and THAT means a great deal to me, having gone through what I did with my first marriage.
So letting go of *expectations* in others, in particular David will be a big Goal for me now that I have discovered that it is an area still in need of work.
Well, well my Cainer Cast for today:
Imagine trying to paint with just two contrasting colours, to cook with just two flavours, communicate with just two words... or to think with just two ideas?
We'd soon get pretty bored. Strangely, though, we accept the notion that everything in this world is either 'good' or 'bad'.
We judge, we label... and we limit. There are wider issues to take into account now as you assess a sensitive situation. Don't try to reduce it to some over-simplistic assessment.
The more sides to a story you can manage to see, the more opportunity you'll encounter.
Hey Tony,
I feel very Sunshiny today!!!
I think I may be on the mend and I think I made another step in my progress with yesterday and this morning.
Good morning
Glad you're feeling a little better today
Good Morning, lady Di
Wow - that was some horoscope, eh?
Quote:
What I realized this morning after some rest is what bothered me is I STILL have *expectations* that David is this kind, benevolent person and that he was posting to help rather than stir up. When that appeared to possibly not be the case I was hurt and that prompted the emotional knee jerk reaction.
See, I think this is where the horoscope comes in. We don't really know what D was doing. I don't think it's really necessary to see it in black or white terms. Sure, it was insensitive of him to post here, given what he put you through. But it also probably wasn't a deliberate attempt to goad you - if it had been, he probably would have posted differently.
No, I suspect he was just reading around (although one has to wonder why, the day after Valentine's Day, his thoughts would turn to the DB bb?) and something in TMWs thread resonated with him.
Pam, he's not the man you thought he was, in either direction - he's not the good man you thought he was, but he's not the evil person either. He's just - well - an imperfect human being. Confused and muddling through, like most people.
Ellie
Quote:
Pam, he's not the man you thought he was, in either direction - he's not the good man you thought he was, but he's not the evil person either. He's just - well - an imperfect human being. Confused and muddling through, like most people.
Ellie
Yes, I think this morning when I was thinking and the expectations thing sort of smacked me in the face I realized what several of you have tried to tell me in the past but I had this *ideal* too firmly fixed in place to see D in a different light. People are Gray not Black or White. Even J I suppose must have something good about her.
Today I'm working on seeing if I do that as strongly with others as I did D.
Thank you tons Ellie!!!
Pam,
Sorry I missed the chance to be there during the battle yesterday, but I am glad to see you doing better. A new day and a new outlook, that's great. Has your part of Indiana been warm too? I haven't talked to my relatives down your way lately.
Hi Al,
Sorry you missed out. It isn't that often the bb is treated to an OW appearance.
I believe the fray yesterday really helped me make some more progress.
It has been lovely here and I so wish it would stay. But, spring will come eventually.
Quote:
Even J I suppose must have something good about her
I doubt it! It sure didn't show by her posting here yesterday!
You're just too nice and SUNSHINY
Morning, Pam. I read your long post about whether you put D on a pedastal... and it makes a lot of sense. I've had similar thoughts about my wasband. He was a very good husband for many years, and his behavior at the end was bizarre/astonishing/totally out of character.
Like you, I struggled with expectations, then wondered if I'd been a fool all those years, thinking he was someone/something he was not. Eventually, I concluded that there is no way I was that stupid. I may have seen the best in him (which you should, when you're married to him). But I did not imagine the good. It was there.
He was not "fooling" me and everyone else for all those years. Maybe he was a better person, maybe he loved me enough to strive for that, maybe it was the position of the moon or biochemical. But there was lots of good about him. Later, there was a change. Maybe he got tired of being who he knew I needed/wanted/thought he was. Maybe he had a MLC. Maybe his brain chemistry got whacky. Only God knows. I sure don't.
But I am quite comfortable knowing that there was lots of good, lots to love about him. I also know that things changed. He changed. Indisputably, and with irreparable impact to the M/R. It does not wipe out of invalidate what USED to be.
So I do not regret our time together, or disavow the good things about him or our M. Equally, I accept taht every bit of the pain/bad stuff was real. Thought I am not in touch with him now, I assume that there is still good in him-- and that some of the character issues still show up at least periodically. Not black. Now white. Not even the same shade of gray from day to day.
My wasband was practically a prince for many years-- truly. But in the best of times, there were a few flaws that popped up every now and then. I'm sure those are still present, at least from time to time.
So don't beat yourself up. I'm not sure that you were really having "expectations" of him. I think that you knew D for years, and that it is quite realistic that he uses his logic and intellect to give good advice. This can co-exist with behavior that suggests lack of moral compass. People are funny things.
I personally think that even when you are "done" you can have a balanced and fair view of an ex. You don't have to condemn, or not give any credit to any good qualities.
Yeah, it's peculiar he's hanging out here. Espcecially right after VD. So maybe his new life is not all that. But, along with that, maybe he just read about TMW's struggles and figured, "hey, I can offer something that might help". Just like many of us do.
He is what he is. It's not your job to figure out his motivation, or judge. But I personally do not see anything wrong with you assuming he had good intentions in posting, rather than judging him as intending to be hurtful. If you had immediately judged him to be hurtful, I would actually have seen that "not done" since you were assuming his actions were all about YOU. That would be "not done" and "self centered" and unrealistic to boot.
So honey, don't be hard on yourself. Not seeing ill intent does not mean you were putting expectations on him, not in my book. Well, I don't have a book, and of course could be wrong. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it
Hey April,
Thanks for the hug.
Tony,
You are a goof and I like Sunshine!!!
Pam - I'm sorry for the mess that is going on currently. I'm not sure what made him post to me and I'm sorry for the trouble that has ensued. As I said to him and her - to me, personally - We are basically strangers telling stories. We don't know each other, we could be co-workers and not even know it. It doesn't matter if we lie, make threats or whatever. We have to face ourselves and that is all that really matters. We are here to support each other and help each other survive.
Thank you for helping me survive. Thank you for being there and offering advise and support and so much more. You are loved and appreciated!
TMW,
You are sweet and I wish/hope I can help you in some way. I liked Zoo's post to you, sort of gives you the other side.
She can sort of relate as she was suddenly unable to work same as your bf.
The other situation is just helping me see true character better.
As Betsey said the other day growth takes place in uncomfortable situations. So I should grow, right?
Quote:
AMEN!!!
Thank you!
Pam- I have never posted to you before.....but I saw all the BS that was going on, and that's all it was BS.
This place is a public forum, so I guess to expect them not to post here contradicts that. However, it is apparent that your xh and J are trying to show you in a different light, maybe in hopes to take this away from you too.
Don't let them affect you. No matter what is going on legally between the two of you, it has no place on this boards. We have all acted/reacted to our situations in not so healthy ways. It's human nature and I think most of us have done things that we would never post about. No big deal. We are concerned with supporting each other.....no matter what......and you will still continue to get the support you no matter who says what about you.
That woman took your H, don't let her take this place away from you. Let them be hateful and spiteful, let them threaten you......and let it roll right off your back because I don't think any one of us gives a rat's @ss as to what they have to say or whine about.
((((((((HUGS TO YOU)))))))))))
Be strong.......and let them wallow in it if they so choose.
~SE
SE,
Thank you very much for this post. It means a whole lot to see the BB rally behind me when this happened.
I actually did post about the stuff she posted about. The van incident was over a year and a half ago when I was trying to come off my Zoloft incorrectly.
There isn't much about me the BB doesn't know.
There isn't much about me the BB doesn't know.
True! And we care anyway!
You're fine, girl, fine! Let go!
Your a sweetheart! I know you know me.
SC,
Thank you for your post. It helps to know I hopefully wasn't totally blind!
Pam,
I too think that they are having a problem moving on with their lives. They must have so much guilt at what they did TO YOU (not you to them) that they must keep trying to justify it. Boy did they pick the wrong place to do that. They need to post on that OW site that tries to justify ADULTERY. We are all on your side here. I agree with Tony. Do not reply to them. They will NEVER get it!! You have your whole life ahead of you. LIVE IT TO THE FULLEST. They will continue to make each other miserable the rest of their lives. Don't let them hurt you any more. We all need this to be a safe place to come to. If our ex's read these messages I guess they aren't so happy as they want us to believe.
God Bless!!
Hi Havefaith,
It was not the most pleasant experience but I look at it as happening for a reason. I feel it frees me even more to move forward.
Yes, it happened for a reason. Just like when my wasband contacted me recently. I figure it happened so I could show me that it just wasn't a big deal. That I was done.
I feel a lot more done now.
May have to practice that dance!!!
Hey Cupcake,
Wanted you to know I thought about what you had said when I was having a rough go a few times coming off the Zoloft.
Very glad to finally be off of it!
Looked up yesterdays Cainer Cast:
The Moon is full in your sign. What does this mean? You have no hiding place. You are exposed, on show, in full public view.
A part of you likes to receive attention, but only when it can choose what the rest of the world sees - and doesn't see.
You feel as if you are having to reveal more about yourself than you would ever really want to.
Far from making you vulnerable, though, this is enabling you to end a pretence that has long been unnecessary - and start making some realistic arrangements.
This seems very apt!
Okay, not to bring up bad memories, Princess Di, but why has Camilla Parker's ugly mug been popping into my head all day?
Ellie
Hi Ellie,
Did you catch any of the Vanishing thread today? It helped me put a lot more things in perspective I believe.
What thread is that???
Ellie
Ellie,
I'll save Pam the pain of talking about it, but J started a thread called "The Truth", and of course all the DB'ers got on her about it. Then D added to it, and it was getting pretty hot and heavy. Pam showed she was the best person out of the three of them by staying out of it, and letting D and J make fools of themselves! Then the thread VANISHED!!!!!
I missed all the fun with Camilla and Charles?????? Darn.
Just what WAS the "truth"???? That they were "soulmates" and therefore having affairs and leaving their spouses was okay? That they are "really in love" - that's why they are spending the days after Valentine's Day trolling the DB website harassing Xs and trying to justify themselves?
Pam - you should be so glad to be out of their mess. They are SO creepy, I cannot tell you. It's not you, Pam, really - it's them. Whacked is what they are.
Ellie
Well Ellie,
J thought she was telling us the truth by telling us some of the things Pam did and said while suffering through all of this! They just didn't understand the pain they were putting her through! And, yes, it was very creepy!
Gosh, and it's not like we didn't already KNOW those things! Pam's pretty much an open book in that regard.
Creepy creepy people. Sad. Poor Princess Di (the real one)- I really understand her now. She didn't have a chance with three people in her marriage, and neither did Pam.
Ellie
It was fairly amusing
Quote:
Gosh, and it's not like we didn't already KNOW those things! Pam's pretty much an open book in that regard.
HI Ellie,
J didn't realize the things she was posting were things I posted about back when they happened. She started with the van incident and went backwards from there in her posts.
After folks started jumping in then D jumped in rather ugly, defended her and threatened me. I saw another side to him yesterday. Didn't my Cainer cast say look at all the angles? Well, I saw a new one yesterday in D, J wasn't a surprise.
And the Truth Shall Set You Free
So J posted the Truth, D showed me the Truth and I saw it yesterday. It was an emotional but good day for me in the end.
This must be my week for enlightment in my thinking.
I realized why D posting back during our marriage was probably one of the worst things for me.
That is how our R began, not the friendship but what moved deeper.
Why I thought he was so wonderful and would never have communication problems! He can be very insightful into other people's situations and talk very good logic about it.
That is what he did for me, he even bought me the Mars/Venus book to try and *help* my marriage. I bet anything both of his R's with J started the same way, with him being insightful and helpful to her in her unhappy marriage. Problem is in the end his way of *helping* is for him to become emotionally and physically involved.
So when he was posting that drew me right back into what attracted me to him in the first place, that insightful understanding he seemed to have whenever I talked with him. That led to the feeling of he gets this, he understands, we just need time for us to work through the hurt we have caused one another in our marriage. Work on ourselves. Except D never worked on himself when he was here posting. He just posted helpfully to others and bad about me.
So he can,
Talk the Talk, but NOT Walk the Walk!!! Sorry you guys are getting what should be old news but sad to say it is a new realization for me.
I wonder if that is a part of his seeming attraction to the bb, seeing in and giving advice seems to be something he is drawn to in real life as well? Not often because he used to at least be shy, and 2 he does not invest in other people very often. My guess as to why he has few close friends.
Since this week I'm back into checking my horoscope here is the weekend:
There are not 'two sides to every coin', there are three. The third side is very slim. It's what we call the edge.
It is true that, if you stand a coin on its edge, even if you don't spin it, it will sooner or later land on one of its larger surfaces.
This, though, doesn't devalue that third side. On the contrary, it underlines its importance. Only by getting close to the edge, is it possible to flip it over.
There are three ways to look at what's happening in your life this weekend. Only one point of view, though, will help you to alter the outcome.
Good Morning
SUNSHINE!!!!!!!
Pam,
The more I read, the more I realize how truly alike we are. Both in person and situation.
I know you talked to my STBX and saw a different side to my situation, but as you describe your X, you describe mine.
Which now you can understand why I learn so much from your posts and appreciate them.
The light at the end of my tunnel has shown.....I have a court date. Finally. I can release this situation. And he can marry again.
G
Pam,
I think this latest episode has helped all of us see how desperate these cheaters are to defend their actions. It is kind of amusing when you think about it. It was wonderful to see everyone coming together for you. What a great group of people are on this board.
DB'ers RULE!!!!
God Bless,
havefaith
Hi Gina,
You seem in a much better place today.
Your STBX did remind me some of D. Not in deep areas because I didn't know him that well but in some definite surface ones. I believe I told him don't be insulted but you remind me of my WAS one time.
I don't talk to him now so no idea how your communication is going but I hope it all goes better than my ex and I managed.
Quote:
It was wonderful to see everyone coming together for you. What a great group of people are on this board.
DB'ers RULE!!!!
God Bless,
havefaith
You got that right on!!!!!!!!!
I don't think there are any words that can adequately express my appreciation for the people on this board. I can't tell you how many people also contacted me privately. Not like I haven't given out contact info freely over the years. But people I had never talked to before either on IM's or e-mails.
Lots of folks here went through some pretty crazy times with me and my emotions. Awesome people and I have no doubt I would not be where I am today without this bb.
It was a very good feeling to see the support and the telling it as they see it from the dbers. I think because out in the world and what they deal with no one cares if they had an affair and treated the wife pretty shabby. I am not sure J expected the lash back from the bb. D I would think should have known what to expect as his thread went pretty wild when his affair became known for sure on the bb.
Things are good.
Yes he is a WAS but he'd never believe it.
We have no communication, but this is his MO. He throws everything into the new R, is extremely stealth to the rest of the world (and I mean the internet here, because that is the rest of his world). Until marriage, then he starts looking around. That's when I'll hear from him again and you will too, I bet.
Quote:
After folks started jumping in then D jumped in rather ugly, defended her and threatened me. I saw another side to him yesterday. Didn't my Cainer cast say look at all the angles? Well, I saw a new one yesterday in D, J wasn't a surprise.
You know, kinda reminds me of some weird friends we used to have. Knew this couple through our kids going to school together. Used to hang out casually with them - Sunday dinners with the kids and a third couple, casual. last minute kind of things. Light conversation. Did this for years.
Then one day they related this story about how a mutual acquaintance had "come on" to the wife at a party, and how the H had had to make a big scene and defend her honor. Really spread some bad gossip about this mutual acquaintance (whose story turns out to be very different, btw.) We still didn't think too much about it.
Then one night when everyone was over and joking around, my H made a very mildly suggestive joke to the wife (nothing bad, really, and mind you, she would be the FIRST one to tell a dirty joke). We were all sitting around in the kitchen, and knowing she loved red wine, he said "want to see L have an orgasm?" and opened our newly stocked wine cabinet.
Well, her H later came to my H and told him how thoroughly offended she was and made my H apologize to her etc. Which my H immediately did, because he certainly didn't mean to offend, but it was just weird, you know? She was anything but straitlaced, and all six of us were present in the room at the time.
Then we had another weird encounter where the H demanded our S (then 10) apologize to her for some imagined slight (actually, SHE was in the wrong in this particular instance). At that point we decided some weird dynamic was going on with them that we didn't want to be a part of, and we just quit socializing with them.
My point here is that they seemed to have this thing going on where the wife needed to manufacture "insults" in order to get her H to run in and be the "big man" and defend her honor. I wonder how much J uses the victim role to keep David "defending" her, as a way to hold onto him.
I've seen other OW in the past actually fabricate threatening messages from the LBS, and tell other complete lies, in an attempt to get the WAS to "defend" them against the LBS. One has to wonder if J is playing the same game. Maybe she could feel her R was flagging (since David was trolling on the bb for his next victim that he would "help" with their marriage???) and felt the best way to reel him back in would be to push your buttons, then they would have to unite against the "big bad Pam"???
Whatever. Good riddance to bad rubbish. I hope you were able to keep a copy of David's threat, whatever it was. You may need to start keeping a file in case you ever need to file a restraining order against them. Wackos.
So - Princess Di - what are your plans for this weekend? Are you over your illness yet? What new things are you going to step out and explore? And is coffee guy still in the picture?
Ellie
Gina,
I didn't mean to imply that he reminded me of D in being a WAS just some of his personality traits reminded me of D.
I know things didn't work out but I know he was crazy over you while I was talking to him and I spent a lot of phone bills talking to a crying, distraught guy.
I wish you both the best in your future.
Pam,
Gee Wiz, I take a few days off from the board, and all ..... breaks loose. The last I remember we were heading to Florida.
Sorry I missed all the excitement.
((((((PAM)))))))
Hang in there!
All
Hi Ellie,
That couple sounds like they have some major strange things going on.
I didn't mean to imply D was tolling the bb for a victim. I really meant I think he starts out with a genuine desire to help and he is capable I think of seeing what will help in a given situation. Remember he told me he doesn't know how he ends up in affairs that, "they just happen". I think he starts out helping, gets drawn in emotionally which leads to physical. J said he made the initial physical overture in this affair and I do belive that is probably true. I really wonder if he would invest himself in friendships if affairs might stop, "just happening" for him.
I will give him that I think he made some very thoughtful, insightful posts in his time in Piecing. He just doesn't apply any of what he is saying to himself. Or maybe he does, but I don't think J was ever truly out of our marriage. Even after she dropped him, his life consisted of staying in his apartment and reading computer magazines or following J around at dog class and shows. So she was still a part of his life. I think now she was never truly OUT of his life or at least his mind. When I started trying to re-establish contact with friends and activities, struggling to come out of the depression, that of course brought us back into a lot of contact with J. As she was one of my main friends connected to my dog hobby, she and I had been traveling companions for the past several years that I was involved with showing my dogs.
I'm not saying he carried the affair on the whole time we were married although G's friend S has suggested just that as a possibility. I now feel my marriage was doomed to failure from the very beginning. But I still appreciate the good times I had from it. I think even after seeing D in a truly new light yesterday that I can separate the D I see now and the good memories of my marriage.
The way I'm looking at it is it isn't memories of D, it is memories of events in my life and they were positive ones.
Funny you should mention a file. I have decided I think that is exactly what D and J are doing on me. She quoted from the police report in her thread. He mentions some of my emotional extreme breakdowns on my thread, specifically the time right before the meeting where he took our house away. I think yesterday they were trying to draw me out into an emotional extreme not just for their entertainment but for an even nastier motive. I believe I need to look at it as I have 2 very bitter enemies. I would think it would take a fairly strong motivation to come onto a marriage saving site, post as an OW and try to justify your affair to a bunch of folks that have been cheated on and aren't going to look too favorably on something like that from a stranger.
I feel I may have finally got what I needed to put the pieces into a perspective for myself that seems to fit what I know of the personalities involved. Don't really understand the anger and hatred now, but at least the rest of the situation makes a lot more sense than it did previously.
I am still sick and plans are to have a low key weekend and do some easy dog training at home. My friend S called last night and we have set some new goals for some of the shelties.
I heard from coffee guy earlier this week and he is having a crazy week and planning to get back with me later.
All,
You missed meeting my ex and his ow on her very own thread yesterday!!!
That'll teach you to take time off.
How often do we get to interact with the WAS and their OW??
Think I maybe figured the anger angle out. I know, I know, drop it. But if it will make sense to me I won't keep replaying it in my head!
He needs this anger at me to keep from feeling bad over his treatment of me. Plus at a guess J keeps feeding it as it is a tie that binds them together, their anger at me.
I do think he has a conscious and finer feelings, he is just burying them so he doesn't feel bad over his actions.
Never before was he married when he became involved with affairs so the husbands he was hurting were a more distant pain. My pain was raw and right in his face. THAT he couldn't deal with and ran harder.
Quote:
The way I'm looking at it is it isn't memories of D, it is memories of events in my life and they were positive ones.
Pam, that's a great way to look at it!
Quote:
He needs this anger at me to keep from feeling bad over his treatment of me. Plus at a guess J keeps feeding it as it is a tie that binds them together, their anger at me.
BINGO! As I always say, anger is guilt turned outward.
I don't know whether they really crossed the line together earlier in your marriage, but I suspect that J's presence in your marriage was a lot like Camilla's - the way she played the tragic heroine with Charles before he married, rather than the true friend who would have been truly happy for him and truly encouraged him in his marriage. The sneaky ways she must have kept in touch over the years. We all know there are a lot of sneaky ways women use to keep someone dangling on a string, even if they're not sure they want them themselves, and that most men are oblivious to the ways some women manipulate them.
I had one like that in my marriage's early years. She had been a semi-girlfriend of my h's before we met (dated briefly, never slept together, her choice not to pursue it).
H invited her as a friend to our wedding - where she went to my H's bedroom the night before the wedding and seduced him (so much for that old saw about it being bad luck for the bride and groom to see each other before the wedding! What was I thinking, sleeping in the other house????)
To make a very long story short, after we weathered that and the six months of them communicating after - things were good for several years. Then the OW lost her brother in an accident, and who did she need to talk to to help her through her grief? You guessed it - my H. I was so stupid and naive I allowed it! Now I understand, these are the sneaky ways they try to keep that hook set. I finally told my H that if she was REALLY his friend, she wouldn't keep trying to insinuate herself into our marriage. (This, after her H called me to tell me he had found out that they had made plans to meet up when my H had a business trip to her city).
Ellie
Pam,
Yeah, what Ellie said! And more...
I'd not only add guilt, but remorse, shame, sadness and a whole other slew of emotions that aren't making themselves apparent.
Since anger is about "how I feel", what's the payoff in choosing to hold on to it? Well, I can think of 1 big one. That's the ONLY thing that's binding those 2 to you. Perhaps they're both feeling bad about how they treated you as a friend, and instead of dealing with those feelings, choose to keep that tether to you in anger?
They both seem to be truly unformed people. I'd really love to ask you if you have cataracts or severe astigmatism, because I'm wondering what you saw in either one of them?
But I honestly don't want to bash you--you're too nice.
So, since you're down here in Surviving and Thriving (which says a lot about your own growth since you started posting), let's leave those two boobs alone? They're both really pathetic human beings and all I can think of as a consolation to you is that they live in KY and you're above them. Literally AND figuratively.
A good defense never needs justification, Pam. I know you're not perfect--but honestly, none of us are. We've all made mistakes--some bigger than others and with more bang for the buck
--but the fact is, you've grown.
Don't feel you need to explain yourself to anyone because they say you should. End of story.
Now, how about time for a new thought for 2006? No more worrying about either one of them unless it's to process your feelings. Don't keep your own tether to them alive and kicking... ya know what I mean? Sever it now, and tell yourself that you deserve the best from life. They have NO part in your future, Pam. So X them out.
If that doesn't work, perhaps there's a cleric who would offer to pay $1M to assasinate them for you?
Big hugs from very chilly Denver,
Betsey
Quote:
. I'd really love to ask you if you have cataracts or severe astigmatism, because I'm wondering what you saw in either one of them?
Bets - you crack me up.
Quote:
perhaps there's a cleric who would offer to pay $1M to assasinate them for you?
Wait - we're not talking about Pat Robertson and Hugo Chavez, are we???
I think what we need is a good old-fashioned exorcism. Call the priest and let's get rid of these evil spirits in Pam's life!!!
Ellie
Quote:
If that doesn't work, perhaps there's a cleric who would offer to pay $1M to assasinate them for you?
Geeze Betsey!!! They posted they are reading here because they feel I'm dangerous and here you go with a crack like that!!!
I think you and Ellie are both right. At least as far as David goes. I don't think J capable of feeling remorse or shame. Used to think D was, but he did flaunt this affair and his first one with her so I may have just projected my feelings onto him about remorse and guilt.
Anyway, I am glad to have finally seen D in a different light than I had previously. Possibly a lot of you that posted through the mess with us saw it a lot sooner. But, I still had him sort of on that pedestal. He did at least do me the favor of knocking himself off yesterday and I do appreciate it as I feel much freerer now. Prior to that I still felt compassion, empathy and some sympathy for him. I know sometimes you can kick me over and over and I still care. My loyalty doesn't go away easily.
I also wondered if D wanted to be really sure he HAD burnt all bridges to me? That way there is no second guessing, no chance of returning. Just a passing thought I had as I'm putting the piecies of this jig saw puzzle into place now. I like things in place and I'm glad that they are finally fitting in a place that works for me. It may not be right, but it will be the best I can do without them telling me for themselves and even then do they know and would they tell the "Truth" if they did know?
I think with my slow weekend I will work on 2006 goals.
Quote:
I think what we need is a good old-fashioned exorcism. Call the priest and let's get rid of these evil spirits in Pam's life!!!
Ellie
Now this sounds like an idea!!!
Thanks for all the laughs! But who ever said you were the most dangerous poster on the BB?
Seriously, Pam, they're smarmy people with no morals, absolutely NO class and they're probably the inspiration for country music writers.
'Nuff said, because it's allowing the tether to exist. Visualize this: take a big honking fishing knife (isn't that something lowlifes carry around for fun?) and just hack that cord to pieces. Then I'll bring my XH's big honking shotgun and blow that there cord to smithereens...
Nore more! See me waving around this pseudo magic wand? They be gone! POUF.... it's as easy as that. Be gone, losers!
Hopefully you've got some peace and fun in your weekend plans? I sure as heck hope so.
Hugs,
Betsey
I think I got me a spray can of that stuff around here somewhere, Martha - Loozers-B-Gone, yup, that's it right thar!
Betsey,
You are hilarious!!!!!!!!!!
The shelties and I have been playing most weekends and this one is for me to recooperate some from whatever I have so they will have to lump it and settle for some round the house entertainment.
Ellie,
Did you spray that stuff yet??????
PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTT!
Done!
Ellie
Thank you!
Weelll, Ellie Mae, you dint tell me that you could buy sumfin in an aeriesol can!?!? That would be a lot more better than my unreliable wand... tell me sumfin, can I buy er at Walmart? How much chew am I gonna haf ter give up to buy some?
Pam, looks like Ellie Mae got rid of yer vermin just like that!
Now, on to warmth, sunshine and better things! (I think my sense of humor today is derived from this balmy 8 degrees we're having--with more snow on the way tonight.) I just can't seem to warm up. I'm just thankful there's no vermin in my horizon.
Back to my after lunch dessert--fresh fruit. I really want to snarf down some girl scout cookies, make myself some tea and curl up on the sofa with my blankie. Too bad I already called in sick once this week... was feeling a little puny and exhausted, so I took a mental health day and allowed D8 to play hooky with me. D11 was a little miffed, but what's she going to do? Take away my birthday? We slept until 1, stayed in our pjs and watched Shark Tales all afternoon. I'm recommending this as a Rx for all that ails anyone in February today...
I'm going to try and figure out if there's a way I can do that more often.
Upward and onward!
Martha May
As you know I love humor and this play is fun and good after a trying week with lots of deep thinking on top of being sick.
I also wish it was that easy. It is and it isn't. Even with my eyesight in question D was special to me in the beginning. I thought the sun rose and set with him. Luckly for him he should never have to deal with that from J.
He could make a person feel very special if he wanted to. He had a good sense of humor and his logic and insight made for interesting conversations. I just didn't realize you never really saw inside of D. What was he really thinking or feeling? Because that was something he doesn't share, you feel he is sharing, but what that amounts to is his reflecting back your feelings and not his true feelings.
If this sounds sad I'm mourning a bit this afternoon. I don't think that is a bad thing. I think yesterday I did really see the person he has become, I'm just saying goodbye to the person I knew and believed him to be during most of our marriage.
PSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTT!
PSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTT!
PSST! PSST!
PSSSTT!
Damn, you think they both are?????????
Damn, you think they both are????????? Well I have visions of one flat on its back, waving its nasty little legs in the air?
Oops, looks like I had b!tch for breakfast again
I agree with the anger thing though, far easier to just be angry at someone than admit your part to play. I can't help thinking that when all is quiet, the feelings of guilt must eat them alive.
We need some Raid around here.
Hi Kismet,
Any idea which is on it's back kicking and what is the other doing?
I sort of doubt any feelings of guilt eating them alive but at this point I probably can't guess how they are feeling. At one point I thought I knew how he was feeling and could empathise with him. Since he is only angry now I have no idea where his head is at, but I'm not really sure he does either.
Ellie wrote him a very caring and great post on my other thread to him but I bet he didn't take any of it in.
Quote:
We need some Raid around here.
Hi Pam,
Shees! You guys have been busy today. It's funny that earlier on I was looking for some fairy dust and a crystal ball but a can of Raid sounds pretty good right now.
That realization that WAS isn't all we thought they were is pretty stunning, isn't it? (((((((Pam)))))))
I don't know if you ever read "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson, but there is a section that applies here in a smaller way (in most cases) than he illustrates. It's called "The Gift." It's about a woman abused ber her H and then we wants to leave and she wants him to stay. Anyway he leaves and she is distraught but in the end, after self-realization she finds that she has been handed a HUGE GIFT by his leaving. I think we all get that to some degree when we find the GIFT of our true selves again.
Hugs, LR
Quote:
I don't know if you ever read "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson, but there is a section that applies here in a smaller way (in most cases) than he illustrates. It's called "The Gift." It's about a woman abused ber her H and then we wants to leave and she wants him to stay. Anyway he leaves and she is distraught but in the end, after self-realization she finds that she has been handed a HUGE GIFT by his leaving. I think we all get that to some degree when we find the GIFT of our true selves again.
Hi Pam,
I am reading about all the drama is retrospect. All I can say is - You've come a long way, baby!
And, without the help of Zoloft!
The above quote, so true. I have come to think that way about my situation too. It is truly a gift, in heavy disguise of course. 
Pam, you sound so much more grounded these days, you are beginning to see who Pam is, and what she wants and needs. I think you mentioned before that most of your adult life has been spent married, or with guys, so this is the first time that you have stood on your own two feet as just Pam, and that can only be a good thing.
It will take more than just TALK to sweep you off your feet the next time. You will know to look for the actions to fit the words, as will I.
((((((((((((((Hugs))))))))))))))
Livnlearn
Wow Pam...I spend this week catching up on my "real" life and find the board has turned into a better soap opera than anything I could have dreamed!
Wish I could have read the "vanishing" thread. I would love to hear how an OW tries to justify herself - and the WAS jumping in to defend her...Yuk, but often that is what the WAS sees in the OP - someone to rescue.
Let me just say I think you handled yourself wonderfully. We all have had times in the past where we didn't handle ourselves with the dignity we would like (when we were going through the worst of the pain, I think the WAS never understands how much it hurts us. And how that hurt just turns us inside out, and yes, sometimes we say and do things we shouldn't) But with this, you proved you are on on the road to healing, you have class and dignity and you can be proud of yourself and the life you are creating!
The OW will never have those things. She will never have the peace that we are finding as we mourn our marriages and move forward in our lives. And the WAS will never have the ability to hold his head high. They live with their decisions, you live with yours, and quite frankly, you are way ahead of the game.
I'd rather be a LBS having to deal with my dreams exploding than an OW who has to live knowing what she did to a marriage. Yuk.
Hang in there Pam...so the challenges aren't quite over yet, but you are so much stronger in dealing with them now! Isn't that nice to know, that you CAN handle these things? (And I hope this is the last you will HAVE to handle!
)
VJ
(Oh, and by the way...I can see a very tiny glimmer of hope that Libby, aka "Stupid Dog" might, just MIGHT, become a well-behaved dog by the time she turns three this summer. I've never had a CHILD so challenging, let alone a dog...but we're still working with her! Although I'm not kidding myself - given the chance, she'd chase that squirrel halfway across town!)
Pam -
Wow! What a crazy few days for you here on the boards! I think you handled it very well. I can see how much you have grown through your posts here. Instead of getting caught up in your XH and OW's chaos, you chose to reflect and really see things in a new light. And that is letting you really move forward. Hurray for Pam!
Enjoy your fuzzy bundles of unconditional love this weekend. My great big fuzzball is outside enjoying this below zero weather. It's her favorite!
WCB