Forgetting those things which are behind......

Posted By: mockers2 Re: Forgetting those things which are behind...... - 12/29/03 04:34 PM

Hi everyone ~

Here's wishing holidays filled with peace.

This post will be mostly for journaling purposes, but as always, your opinions and input is welcome. I get so much from your posts.

The last week or so has been overall good, but a little tough in some respects. For some reason (maybe b/c nearing the anniversary of the bomb?? Maybe b/c I've been at home instead of work - more time to think/worry, etc.), I've been a little more fearful/worried for about a week. Some examples:
1. I voiced to H that I had wondered/worried that a third baby would put distance betweed me and our oldest child (in my last thread I described that our older child has seemed to express anger mainly towards me/tell me she loves Daddy, not me; seems to prefer H over me. There has been a little bit of this tendency all along, but it got worse after H came home - all understandable behavior, which I'm dealing with pretty well at the moment. This is also slacking off somewhat now that H has been home for almost two months.) This is probably an unfounded worry, but I'm probably not the first person to think of this, when contemplating a third child.

2. The children (almost two and almost three) recieved "Finding Nemo" for Christmas. We watched it together for the first time. I worried a little that some parts might scare the kids.

3. On my way home from work the other day, I saw a pretty bad accident. I stopped - there were two boys - both 17 yrs old involved. One wasn't hurt, the other had a head injury. This shook me up a little. I just felt for the boys and their families. I talked to H about this.

Well, yesterday H said I had "been in a mood lately."

I asked him what he meant and he listed the things I listed above and said I had been crying alot lately. I said that he was right, but added that I thought my concerns/worries were probably within the realm of normal. He said he didn't think it was normal. I said," Oh," and let it go. I acted as if I was fine and that we were fine, etc. Happy, happy, happy.....

But, on the inside, I was furious. I wanted to ask H why he thought he was an expert on what's normal (is leaving your family for eight months and having an affair normal?). I know, not loving, not good DB'ing, but at least I didn't say it. I realize, though, that I have got to deal with this or it will come out at some point, and this will not get me closer to my goal at all.

I thought through why this made me so angry, and came up with ~
1. I feel as though my "faults" are open for discussion at any time. H feels free to give his opinion about my shortcomings whenever he wants. But I am to say nothing about him or his way of doing things at all (H got irritated with me for suggesting a different way to rinse the kids hair - it was a way that seemed to cause less crying/protesting. H said "I was doing just fine.")

2. My "faults" are in part what led to him leaving - I was never confident enough in the R/in his love for me.

3. Am I only to be happy, happy, happy all the time? Am I not allowed to have down days or worry about things sometimes?

Yes, I am fearful at times, and yes, I do worry about things probably more than alot of people do, but I am working on this, and I feel like I have improved (although in the past when I feel I've gotten better about something - less insecure, more self confident - when I've asked H, he's said he didn't think I had changed for the better at all.)I don't want to live my life in a state of fear/worry, and am working on this. But, I just want to be loved by H anyway. I want to be able to express my feelings and thoughts to him without worrying that he will leave again. I don't want to spend the rest of my life holding things in because I'm afraid H will think I'm "in a mood."

Maybe it's just too soon for me to really open up to him with all my feelings????????

One other thing is that in the last few days with all this going on, I've noticed a pre-bomb pattern of behavior:
1. something doesn't go well
2. H seems unhappy/upset/frustrated with me
3. I become afraid
4. H pulls back (witholds physical affection, goes into tha cave)
5. I become more fearful, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah

At least I was able to recognize the pattern and stop myself before I tried to talk to H and explain myself or argue with him about what's "normal." Just so scary to see a destructive and familiar pattern.

I feel this is all related to my lack of forgiveness. I felt like I had made some progress, but feeling this anger/rage, makes me realize I have such a long way to go.

So, how to turn this around?
1. Hold in any thoughts/feelings that may be seen by H as negative. Talk to a friend instead.
2. No crying in front of him.
3. Continue to act as if I am fine. Happy, happy, happy.
4. Act like a girlfriend - maybe I've been letting this slip a little - got to polish those toenails, wear pufume every day, smile, flirt.
5. try to see H with empathy - maybe he is ultrasensitive about child care comments - maybe b/c he feels bad/guilty for being gone???? Maybe I act like I know best? I certainly don't mean to come across this way?????

Positives:
1. H and I have had couple time together for the last several nights - we watched a movie or sat on the couch together and read our books.
2. H helped me clean up the kitchen last night.
3. H came with me to run errands one day instead of sleeping, so he could spend time with me.
4. H was very sweet and supportive when we heard of a friends' child dying. I did cry then, and H gave me a hug and said how sorry he was.

One stategy I am using to fight OW thoughts (one of the girls in the movie looked like the person I think is the former OW

) is to say the Lord's Prayer immediately when I start thinking of her/them. I say it several times if necessary, which is usually the case. The "Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who trespass aginst us," part reminds me of what I have to continue to work on.

"Finding Nemo" actually has quite a message for fearful me, when I think about it.

From my devotional today ("Our Daily Bread" Dec/Jan/Feb):

Quote:

Everyone is looking for happiness, and people follow many avenues trying to find it. They look for it in money, parties, self-improvement programs, fancy cars, luxurious homes, or promoting a cause. That's the wrong list. The right one is found in Matthew 5.......Jesus... said we are happy when we are........
*Meek - demonstrating self-control, even when we are mistreated.
*Merciful - showing mercy to others, just as God shows mercy to us.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

What I learned from "Finding Nemo:"

1.Just keep swimming, swimming, just keep swimming, what do we do? We swim... swim..

2. I wish I could speak whale.

3. No, it's true. I forget things almost instantly. It runs in my family. Well, I mean, at least I think it does. Hmmm. Where are they?

4. Uhhh.... the sea monkeys have my money.... yes, I'm a natural blue...

And kids get the gist faster than us adults. Do not worry about scary parts... my daughter (who is afraid of Harry Potter) loved it.

So get a page from Dory and keep forgeting... you can do this.

As to the anger... well you are doing great, finding patterns. Now, how to break them?

All the best wishes for the New Year for your whole family. It will be OK.

Thank you, Holdingon and Optimist. You all make things seem so clear, when to me it all looks fuzzy. A little distance helps, I think.

Holdingon ~ You are right - it is all still new - it's hard to always keep this in mind when in some ways things seem so good between us. When H seems more and more like he's my best friend, it's hard not to fall back into comfort mode and spill all my thoughts/feelings , but I can't let myself do that. (I tend to be a talker when I'm upset.) Come to think of it, maybe this is a mistake I made before - sharing all my fears/thoughts with H. Maybe it's better not to do this ever?????? Maybe there's a happy medium somewhere, eventually.

Keeping myself and my mind occupied is also key - when I have down time, my mind wanders and is filled with bad thoughts/awfulizing. I will check out thise threads you mentioned.

Optimist~ You are right - there are lots of lessons in Nemo. Have to remind myself to keep forgetting and to keep swimming.

Update (get those 2x4's ready

):
I really screwed up yesterday. H went across to the store, and I saw him on his phone, so I called him. I just wanted to tell him that I want him to feel comfortable talking in front of me. Well, it didn't come across that way - it came across as me being suspicious and not trusting him. H was understandably upset with me, but we managed to talk things through and have a good night. I told him that if I thought something was going on, I would ask him, but that I didn't think anything was going on. He said that if anything was going on he would tell me, and that there isn't anything going on right now. Good to hear, but what a bad way to go about hearing it.

H said that one of the reasons he left was that I was always afraid he'd leave

. I can understand how this could be frustrating for him. And I don't want to live in fear of him leaving again for the rest of my life. But it seems to me that having lived through him leaving me once, fears that he will leave again are natural. Guess it's OK to have those fears every once in a while, but I have to keep this from him as well. H has to stay faithful to me on his own. I can't control this. Worrying about it can only make things worse for me, for H and for our M. So, how to show him I trust him?

1. No snooping
2. No quizzing
3. Act like I'm fine with no worries when he is working in the same area at work as the former OW
4. Encourage him to have time to himself
5. do not call him at work unless it's child related
6. do not ask H "are you OK?" or "are we OK?" This bugs him.

H also said yesterday that if I'm going to be afraid he'll leave, then he doesn't want a part of a M like that. H feels that we started over and that we've covered these issues in a previous R talk, so we never need to discuss them again. It seems to me that some things may need to be discussed more than once - for clarification????

Positives:
1. H asked me to lunch today.
2. We laughed at lunch.
3. H is having a bad day today, but I acted as if everything is fine. Happy, Happy, Happy, smile, smile, smile.....I did not ask if we were OK. Baby steps.

Thank you for your insight. I appreciate this more than you can know.

Just one suggestion: why don't you go back to my old threads and check the pattern of suspicion that eventually lead to H leaving again.

T2's old threads also show her problems during the first attempt at reconciliation. Her H also eventually moved out and stayed away for quite some time.

I would hate to see you repeat my mistakes...

Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi everyone ~

Been away from the boards for a while and trying to catch up - man, are there some amazing people on this board! I wish I had more time to read. I learn so much every time I have a chance to read even a little bit. Thank you all - you make such a difference - words fall short of expressing my gratitude to all of you.

Warning - major stream of consciousness post here

....

Update:
Things continue to go pretty well at home. No more skirmishes after our big one last week. Alot of thinking on my part - more on this later.....

Positives:
1. H got frustrated the other day while we were in the car with the kids - some alien behavior surfaced. I calmly explained why I did/said what I did, without sounding angry, and a few minutes later H actually took my hand,looked me in the eye and said I'm sorry. This hasn't happened in a long time.
2. H and I have a date tonight.
3. H and I have been laughing alot in the last several days.

Now, on to goals/thinking...got to get them down before I forget them completely (come to think of it, Optimist, maybe I'm more of a Dory than I realized

). Reading Kitti and Holdingon's threads has gotten me inspired to make some goals/baby steps for myself to work on. This seems to be one of the keys to what worked initially post-bomb - having a list of things to do and not to do really helped me stay focused. I will post my 2004 goals in another post - the R goals seem to be more pressing at the moment.

A recurring theme for me - and for a lot of people on the boards seems to be how to stay steady when things start to turn around/when the WAS comes home. How to deal with the fears that surface at this point - how to live without letting the hurt/anger/pain/that we have experienced dominate (and potentially ruin) our lives. This, for me has been a common thread all my life, for a number of reasons, so, how to work on this???????

One of the reasons my H left was because I was never convinced of his love for me, never understood why he picked me, always felt like I was less interesting/sexy/fun than his female friends.....So, what is the opposite of this fearful attitude? Living as if I'm confident in myself and in his love for me, confident in our M - that it will last. How would I live/be if I felt confident and secure? This is what's so hard - I'm realizing that maybe I've never felt this way - ever. So how do I know how to do something I've never done? Some of what I imagine to be the rightthing to do seems not to be right based on what my H has said/what I've noticed post bomb????

What would I do if I were confident/secure?
1. I would act confident in myself (again, something I've never done consistently - ever).
*hold my shoulders up, stand up straight
*look my best (bathe every day - gross, I know, but the reality on some days), keep toe nails painted, dress up some (again how does the ideal fit into the reality of having two small children? It is an exception for me to get to work and still have clean clothes - usually there's at least some poptart on my shirt

- not complaining here - I am sooooo thankful for the blessings they are.)
*No self-critical comments (either audible or in my head)
*Speak up (tend to be a low talker)
*Express my opinions (although these at times tend to irritate H?????)

2. Take care of myself
*have a devotional every day, continue to pray, pray, pray
*exercise - a goal would be 3-4X/week
*have "me time" (time to think while doing the dishes doesn't count)
*pursue hobbies (birdwatching, hiking, work on photo albums and baby books, participate in flylady)
*take up a new hobby - Ideas: rollerblading, yoga
*eat less junk, drink 64 oz of water/day
*keep in touch with/spend time with my friends - both here on the BB and my other friends
*have a plan (stealing from T2 and Holdingon) for every day "to keep the creepies from taking over my thoughts."
These next two lines are also stolen from Jan and Holdingon:
*"Stop looking over my shoulder...it only slows my progress down and gives the enemy a chance to catch up."
*Cherish and use my free time. Accept it as a friend, no longer an enemy."

3. I would act as if I trust my H
*No quizzing
*No snooping
*Act confident when H works in the same area as the former OW.
*Be kind to H's female friends. Stop seeing them as potential OW.
*No questions about who H worked with last night.
*Act upbeat when H goes out for time alone or for time with his friends. No clinging or acting sad when he leaves.

4. I would act confident in his love for me and in our M (this one is harder for me)
*initiate

more often
*be understanding/not take it personally when H declines

*be open and honest with H (this one gets me - being honest with each other is one thing my H said he had to have in the M, but right now, this seems to be contraindicated for me???????? Maybe in time there will be more of a balance.)

This confidence/the belief he'll be faithful to me now, and that we'll be married for life has to be balanced with the reality that to keep the M healthy will take work. Maybe in the past I confused being and acting confident with becoming complacent (lax about my appearance, my attitudes "he isn't going anywhere, so it doesn't matter how I look", I quit being like a girlfriend, etc.)

Other questions I'm pondering......
1. Is there ever a point at which it's appropriate to talk about these things with the WAS????

2. Do I have to let my guard completely down in order to really forgive my H? I think I do.

3. Will I ever be able to truly be myself with H or is this a myth about marriage I've thought was true?

4. I've had the feeling several times in the last couple of weeks that I'm losing myself in the M again. I think this was a mistake I made pre-bomb. Always thinking only of H - but in a fearful way. H said just post-bomb that I didn't consider his feelings/wants/needs - only my own, but it seems to me I only ever thought of his wants - I never said no to sex when he wanted it. I never asked him not to go out when he wanted to (although, I did act sad when he went out without me.)I feels as if my main focus is on H and the M. There has to be a balance of God, H, the children, and me. Always yeilding to what H wants isn't the answer, I don't think??????

5. H has said that one of the things he didn't like about me was that I came across as always thinking I'm right (How this happened, I'm not sure, as I wasn't very self confident at the time - so how could I have been so insecure and sure I was right all the time?) Maybe some of this is post-bomb confusion with a grain of truth here and there, but how do I know? H seems to have the opinion that we've started over and that we don't need to go over and over things????

6. What is the worst thing that could happen at this point? H could leave again. And wouldn't it be better to live joyfully, loving him as if I thought he'd always be here, than to chase him away by living fearfully?

Thanks for listening. Getting these thoughts down is necessary - helps me work on them. They are rough and all need work, but they are here instead of swirling around in my head with everything else

.

Thinking of all of you and saying prayers.

Now, I'm off to prepare myself for our date (think girlfriend).

Hey Mockers!

Great post!

I understand what you mean about wondering why husband chose me.

This is a challenge for me..but the stuff you listed is what has worked for me in the past.

As for the forgiveness part...I'm still doing it everyday. It's a concious effort. I did take Calystra's advice and tell him that I forgave him EVERYTHING. And after I made that statement, If either one of us brought up some old pain from the past, I'd say, "That's in the past, let's focus on the present."

hmm....I think it's time I get back to doing that again!

Hugs!

awesome reading mockers! it gives me a warm feeling that i could of played a small role in getting you motivated to post this

this is GREAT!!!

Thanks for stopping by, PIB!

You are so right about forgiveness being a conscious effort. It reminds me of part of the marriage prep weekend we attended - they kept saying that "love is a choice." That you choose every day to love your spouse. I remeber thinking, "I'll never have to choose to love H." Man, was I wrong! There have definitely been times when I've felt that I had to choose to show him I love him (although I've always felt that the love is there.) Forgiveness seems somewhat the same to me - it's something I have to choose to do and pray about every day, or
it won't happen.

Something that has also been helping me is to pray for those who have hurt me - including OW and some others. This seems artificial to me right now, and I tell God this - he certainly knows the feelings I have for these people are not loving, but it's a start and seems to be helping.

Also, I left a few goals out:
8. (or whatever # is next

)Help my children feel the unconditional love I have for them. Help them to feel that I am truly there for them no matter what. To feel safe with me.....
*Use humor to diffuse frustration with them and stop the yelling (I'm yelling less, but any is too much.)
*Act joyful with them even when I'm fighting "the creepies."
*Do not allow "the creepies" to steal my time with the children.

Thanks again PIB for your thoughts. I really appreciate you stopping by......

Thanks Kitti - we posted at the same time

. You, Holdingon and all the other terrific folks here inspire me every single day.

I'll post my list of ten goals as soon as I can.....

Mockers...what a great post on your goals! I can definitely relate to needing to work on acting more confident in h's love, etc. I need to see how I can steal some of your goals/actions!

Sage

Thank you sage for visiting ~ your threads have been inspiring me for a while now. I'm currently trying to read your early threads as well as keeping up with your current one. Please visit any time... You seem to be so grounded and to be making so much progress in your M. You have often "voiced" what I have been feeling with clarity and eloquence. I am honored that you stopped by to visit me....the ideas and encouragement on the bb are a source of strength for me every day.

I am so glad your holidays went well....

M,

I think you hit it right on the head. If you do the little things like taking care of yourself being confident it will help so much that you will have to take notice.

Lee

Mockers,
Thanks for visiting my thread... and I am always so inspired by yours. I am really glad that you and your H are LAUGHING a lot lately... I think this is really awesome, and if we could ALL laugh more, maybe more of our sitchs would turn around quicker!

My H thought I thought I was always right, too. I think a lot of it is the way they view us, maybe some of it is that mother thing, and maybe some of it IS us wanting to be right, and maybe even controlling. Maybe you could ask Hs opinion more, and be there and really listen to him when he gives his opinion. Discuss things more, who knows.

I found myself not listening to my H... putting down a lot of his opinions and now, I know why. I was afraid that he was growing, learning new things and thought I was stagnating here at home. I should have shown an interest in his opinions and interests, and not been so fearful of his growing.. Maybe he would have let me grow along with him if I had, instead of leaving me. Who knows. Another lesson learned the hard way.

I would definitely try to have separate interests from your H, and keep the separate life you have worked so hard to have. Be confident... love him, but do your own thing, too. And I am not sure ML with him whenever he wants it IS a bad thing. But maybe you can spice this up, too... perhaps joining him in the shower, or someplace he would least expect it, who knows.

Saying you aren't confident strikes me as funny. You have put your M back together, by yourself. You held out hope, when he didn't. Honey, you SHOULD be confident.

Mockers...
your other questions 1,2,3, and losing myself in the M are feelings I have but don't know the answers to. I think I am supposed to hold back doubts and suspicions, and act confident and happy, pma, regardless. Not tell him how I feel, etc.

Good morning, everybody ~

Lee, Holdingon and dragonflie - thank you for your posts. As I've said over and over, I appreciate the thoughts/opinions and advice I get here sooooooo much. You give me different ways to think about things, and new ideas. It also helps to hear that others have some of the same thoughts and feelings.

Lee - It's good to hear from a man's point of view. The confident attitude seems to be important to most men - at least in my reading and according to my H. If I can just keep my lists in the forefront of my thoughts, instead of buried under anxiety and creepie thoughts, I will be doing much better. Hope your day is going well. I am pulling for you and your W, and have hope for your M.

Holdingon ~ Thank you for your post - you have given me lots to think about.

Quote:

My H thought I thought I was always right too. I think alot of it is the way they view us, maybe some of it is that mother thing(emphasis mine), and maybe some of it IS us wanting to be right, and maybe even controlling. Maybe you could ask Hs opinion more, and be there and really listen when he gives his opinion. Discuss things more, who knows.

This section describes something I'm really struggling with and brings up several issues:
1. What do you mean by "that mother thing"? This is something I have wondered about and I think I have an idea about what this means, but am not sure.
H does seem to be very sensitive when I make a suggestion regarding child care, even when I am just trying to help. We share alot of the child care - most of it really. Even during the separation, he came on most days to take them to school, and on some days to pick them up. We bathe them together, etc. I am the one who gets up when the kids wake up in the morning, while he sleeps in a bit. I guess your post made me wonder if I am giving him the message somehow that because I am with them more on my own than he is, that I know better how to do things????? I'll have to really watch what I say and how I say things. There are, afterall, thousands of ways to wash a kids hair, right?

Maybe I should keep my big mouth shut and let him do things his way (which is what I've been doing since the hair washing incident.)

There seems to be a paradox here.....H is very proud of how I took care of the children while he was gone, and says he thinks I'm a good mother, but I shouldn't offer any unsolicited advice or suggestions about childcare.

2. I do tend to have a bit of a micromanager way of doing things at work. Maybe some of this comes across at home.

3. I am not sure about discussiong things right now - this is one of my main questions. There are things I feel I need clarification on, but in two instances H has said, "we've started over." or "we've discussed this already." As if we never need to talk about any of this stuff again. I haven't brought up this particular topic, and I don't remember us discussing this since a very heated talk just post-bomb (the one in which H told me how selfish I was, only thinking of my needs, that I think I'm always right, etc.)So, maybe this would be OK for us to talk about some more. (Could I possibly dessect this any further?

)

Quote:

I would definitely try to have separate interests from your H, and keep the separate life you have worked so hard to have. Be confident...love him, but do your own thing too.

You are right that this is key - my separateness is one of the things that brought H home. My ability to go and do things without him - both with the children and on my own. This is also a way to keep from losing myself in him and/or the M again. The tricky part is how to do this logistically. I go to a girl's night out each month, and am going out of town for a work meeting without him, so this is a start. Just need to have regular "me" time too. H and I have talked about this.

Quote:

And I'm not sure ML with him whenever he wants it is a bad thing.

I need to clarify this some....I agree with you - I don't think it's a bad thing at all. Really, even when I'm tired, if he wants to ML, I say yes because I am usually wanting to ML too. I meant this more in the sense that H seems to feel comfortable saying doing what he wants/needs (not just sexually). If he is tired and would rather just go on to sleep, he says so. (I have wondered on some occasions if I am not attractive to H and this is why he is able to say no. And, yes, I have asked him, and H says, that I am attractive - he's just tired. I've also wondered while we are ML, is H thinking of her?

Talk about creepies!!!!!

)

Here's another example: Last night, the children were really resisting bedtime. H and I were both frustrated. H said at one point, "I've had enough." I said, "OK, I'll read the story." H was leaving the room and said, "I'll be eback." Me: "are you leaving the house?" H: no. Then he stomped around for a few minutes, then came back and was OK. I would be afraid to say and do what he did, for fear that I would seem angry/negative.

Maybe this is a result of me being a pleaser or maybe I'm afraid to assert myself. Maybe this is a Mars/Venus thing (need to finish that book)?

Quote:

But maybe you can spice this up, too...perhaps join him in the shower or somepalce he would least expect it, who knows.

All good suggestions - I've tried a few already

.

dragonflie ~

Quote:

I think I am supposed to hold back doubts and suspicions, and act confident and happy, pma, regardless. Not tell him how I feel, etc.

Thank you ~ you described my feelings exactly. Anyone have any opinions on this?????

Update: Our date went well. Lots more laughing, good food and a couple of margaritas.

Positives:
1. Our date went well.
2. H shared something with me from a book he is reading.
3. Things seemed good this am, even after last night's

rough patch.
4. I have been able to keep my mouth shut and my anger to myself more consistently.

One more question.....My h seems to enjoy looking at other women - like when we're out at the mall, etc. He has always done this to a certain extent. It's really not that big of a deal, but since the A, it bothers me more. Seems like something some guys just do, and probably no big deal, but it does hurt my feeling sometimes, and now, makes me wonder is he still looking around? Some replay still going on? I'm not saying that I don't notice men, too. I think everyone does this to a certain extent. But he seems to really look more than I do. Any thoughts?

Thank you, guys ~

I think it is incredibly rude for your H to obviously look at other women while your H is with you. He has plenty of time (unless you work together, etc) to do that away from you.

But, he is probably totally unaware, as they tend to be....

The thing I have noticed lately, since I am more aware, I guess, is that ALL men tend to check ALL women out ALL the time... And NO I never noticed this before the bomb... Watch the next time you are out.

Hey Mockers! I'm back and attempting to catch up, three weeks off this board and there is so much activity. I so understand the creepies or the pit in the stomach that exists while trying to get things back on track. But something you wrote a few threads back hit me, are we supposed to act happy, happy, happy and not tell them how we feel? But, and I think we all feel this, isn't this a bit of the woe is me attitude? I've been giving you all this attention and understanding, but what have you done for me other than try to break up the marriage? If we can change our attitude into self-less love, maybe some of our pent up frustration at them not doing enough for us would leave? And on the other hand, what happens if we act happy, happy, happy and then we become happy? All on our own? Isn't this a possibility for all of us?

Quote:

I'll have to really watch what I say and how I say things. There are, afterall, thousands of ways to wash a kids hair, right? Maybe I should keep my big mouth shut and let him do things his way (which is what I've been doing since the hair washing incident.)

Absolutely! Who really cares if the children go out in really obnoxious outfits or the hair isn't washed in the most efficient manner? I think one of the great things about this BB is we can see ourselves in other's post. As the primary caregiver, of course I think my way is right or best, but I need to back off and let H do it his way, and maybe I'll learn something, and if not, I'll learn to let other people discover their own method of doing things! Don't you hate when someone is looking over your shoulder and watching how you do something? Maybe that is the feeling we are giving our H's.

Quote:

There seems to be a paradox here.....H is very proud of how I took care of the children while he was gone, and says he thinks I'm a good mother, but I shouldn't offer any unsolicited advice or suggestions about childcare.

I think this is big---he doesn't like suggestions about childcare. If it isn't really, really important, don't bring it up. Let him do it his way. Try for a week, see what happens. If he is dealing with it, gives you time to go do something fun or your flylady 15 minute decluttering! Someone posted somewhere that they have an overnight rule for questions, they sleep on the question/comment they have for their spouse and then in the morning if it still really important, they give themselves persmission to pose it. I think she said about 95% of the time it was not important in the morning. Sounds like a sound technique.

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3. I am not sure about discussiong things right now - this is one of my main questions. There are things I feel I need clarification on, but in two instances H has said, "we've started over." or "we've discussed this already." As if we never need to talk about any of this stuff again. I haven't brought up this particular topic, and I don't remember us discussing this since a very heated talk just post-bomb (the one in which H told me how selfish I was, only thinking of my needs, that I think I'm always right, etc.)So, maybe this would be OK for us to talk about some more. (Could I possibly dessect this any further? )

I think you have answered your own quesion. He feels that you are starting over, the past is past. He is with you and possibly to him that is discussion enough. What would dissecting it further get you? We are female, it is what we do best, but apparently the male species just don't get it. What more could you learn? He wants it all to be in the past, and that is a pretty good place for all the crap he put you through to be.

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The tricky part is how to do this logistically. I go to a girl's night out each month, and am going out of town for a work meeting without him, so this is a start. Just need to have regular "me" time too. H and I have talked about this.

This sounds like a start. I don't know about you, but I always felt guilty when I would go out with GFs, like I should be home with my family, but I think through all this we have learned we need to do things on our own and just for us. I'm so glad you are doing the trip! What is your normal pattern of calling home? Those phone calls are going to be a great chance to act confident and happy and tell him all the exciting things you are learning and doing! Happy, happy, happy! And of course, be happy and have fun, take some trash novels and give your mind a break.

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H says, that I am attractive - he's just tired. I've also wondered while we are ML, is H thinking of her? Talk about creepies!!!!! )

You need your stop sign on this one!!!! He thinks you are attractive, repeat that instead, or how lucky he is to have you, something that boosts you up, not down. I know there are times when I'm tired, but I don't say so, but what would happen next time, when you really are too exhausted, to just say no? I'm all for ML, think it is great for bringing everyone closer together, but why do we always say yes, but they can say no when they are exhausted and then we get our feelings hurt? I'm the exact same way! Get a vibrator and then see their reactions? (I'm kidding on that one, but I bet it would get their attention! Let me know if you have the guts to try it, I know I don't)

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Here's another example: Last night, the children were really resisting bedtime. H and I were both frustrated. H said at one point, "I've had enough." I said, "OK, I'll read the story." H was leaving the room and said, "I'll be eback." Me: "are you leaving the house?" H: no. Then he stomped around for a few minutes, then came back and was OK. I would be afraid to say and do what he did, for fear that I would seem angry/negative.

Okay, this sounds a bit too unsure of yourself. Kids can be a pain and take every ounce of energy. But how about if you would have said, yeah they are being difficult, why don't I read to them tonight and give you a break and then tomorrow night it is your turn? Could that have helped? Something a bit proactive and eliminate your need to ask him questions.

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Maybe this is a result of me being a pleaser or maybe I'm afraid to assert myself. Maybe this is a Mars/Venus thing (need to finish that book)?

Me too, I stalled at about chapter 4

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I think I am supposed to hold back doubts and suspicions, and act confident and happy, pma, regardless. Not tell him how I feel, etc.

The cliche that comes to mind is: fake it until you make it. I think we should do it for us, not them, dwelling on the bad isn't going to do ourselves any good. Take a look at all the good in our own lives and focus on that. I think listing the positives helps with that. I'm glad you had such a great date. When you find yourself having the negavite thoughts, replay the date in your head and the feelings you felt then.

I'd just ignore the eye-candy thing. If it is something he does and did, pointing it out and that it hurts your feelings will probably not score you any points, will only make you look insecure in his eyes. Yeah, it is rude, but will saying anything change his behavior? How about if you said, wow, she really is gorgeous, do you think her boobs are real or bought? Or something outrageous, but not negative, just humorous? Or say nothing?

Mockers, I think he is trying, but maybe our H's don't try in the way we expect. Please, when I reach the stage you are at and all these doubts come up, remind me! I think you are doing great. This is hard, it is hard to forget what they have done, but I think men just process differently and maybe the mars/venus things has some of the anwers.

But celebrate all the victories you have! He is home, it is his choice, you didn't force him back, he is there because he wants to be there with you! He wants to make another baby with you. He thinks you are attractive. He wants to ML with you. He thinks you were confident and did a great job running the house while he was AWOL. He is sharing things with you. He laughs with you. You have had some great dates. This is a great list! He is lucky to have you, remember that.

When do you leave for your trip?

XOXOXOX

Jackie

Thank you, dragonflie, Holdingon, Dagny and Grislen. You are all so terrific! I am amazed every time I come here how wise you all are.

I appreciate your posts very much, and want to respond to all of them and catch up with all of you too, but I'll be away again from the bb for a while. My H's father died unexpectedly on Friday. It is so sad - he was a wonderful person - always with a smile on his face, a shining example of how to live a Christlike life. We will all miss him so much. I'll be here for a little while today and some tomorrow, but then will be out until Monday of next week.

Hope you all are doing well. Know I continue to keep you all in my thoughts and prayers. I will try to catch up with everyone as soon as I can.

Thank you again for all the support.

Mockers, I am so sorry. Your poor H, this has to be awful. Will be thinking of you guys and keeping you in my prayers.

Jackie

I am so sorry about your loss. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers...

Hello Mockers

I came across a post of yours from about April 03 on a thread about baby steps, over in Newcomers, I think. In it you said you didn't know whether the baby steps you were seeing were genuine ones which would lead your H back to the M, or just things to allow him to be friends and make it easier on himself, or words to that effect.

So I hunted down your most recent thread, to find out which in fact it was, and am SO PLEASED to see that they were in fact baby steps to reconciliation!

Gives me hope, as I have had the same fears. My H has alway said he wants us to be friends - even just after bombshell, and now that we are more friendly, nine months down the line, he seems very pleased.

Livnlearn

Thinking about you. How are you and your family doing?

Jackie

Thank you all for your prayers and support - I appreciate them more than you know.

Everyone is really doing well - amazingly well. We know there will continue to be rough patches, and we do miss him terribly - his death affected so many people - he was such a caring man. It is unreal, but understandable how many people loved him. H, the children and I were in a store the other day, and a man came up to my H and said that he had worked with his father, but had heard late about his death. This man said, "he was a good man...a good man." He told us that when he heard, he left work and went home. He cried as he told us this, and had to walk away.....Just a small example of what a precious and gentle spirit he was. Thank you for listening ~

Now to catch up a bit......

Dragonflie - I agree that it seems rude for my H to look around, but I also agree that he is totally unaware as they tend to be.

Holdingon - I think you are right - they do all seems to do it. I've even noticed my own father doing this!

Oh my goodness!

Dagny - What a post! You've given me alot to think about. First of all, thank you for your prayers and for checking on us.

You are right - the happy, happy, happy does help in reducing my feelings of resentment and it does seem to boost my pma - "as we think, so we are." (Butchering another quote, I'm sure.

) It is also much better than worried, worried, worried (sometimes I think I am Marlin Why don't you play on the sponge beds? That's where I would play.:D)

I have just finished reading "In the Heart of the World" by Mother Theresa. It describes so well a self-less love and seeing Jesus in the world in "a distressing disguise." This is really helping me in my effort to forgive. Still along way to go, but this is key to the process.

You are right, also, Dagny and Grislen about the hair washing incident. I may have made it sound like I offer advice all the time, but I don't. I rarely say anything at all about childcare issues. And in this case, I was saying it as a way to keep her from crying, which I think was trying to meet one of my needs more than my H's. He often tolerates their crying better than I do. I find myself thinking - less now than in the past - "I'm doing something wrong. There's got to be a better way to do it, so she won't cry so much." It never entered my mind that H was doing it wrong, but I can see now how it could seem that that wass what I was implying. Your posts on this topic have also helped me see somethig that I hadn't been able to see before - how I may have come across as thinking I'm always right. This has been one thing that has been so difficult to understand - how could I have come across to him as thinking I'm always right and as someone with no self confidence at the same time? A no-self-confidence, low self esteem, know-it-all? Now I see how he could have seem me in this way.

Jackie the sleep on it rule is excellent. At least 95% of the time, it is no big deal the next day.

Your suggestion on how to handle the kids being difficult was great - I have a hard time being assertive/proactive without seeming angry.

Ignoring the eye candy thing is the right choice, I think. Act as if if not even important enough for me to notice.

Lee - You are right about the hairwashing thing - see above. It absolutely doesn't matter if the clothes match. Our children have gone to school more than a couple of times in their PJ's.

Thank you for a guy's point of view.

Livnlearn - Glad to see my sitch gives you hope. My H did say even right after the bomb that he wanted us to be friends - he even used the word amicable several times (which made me cringe at the time), but our friendship really has held us together through this I think. I want to read your thread as soon as I can. It's good your H seems really happy. Hang in there and be patient with your H. I am glad there seems to be some progress.

Thank you again Dagny and Optimist for your prayers. We will continue to need them, I know.

Positives:
1. H brought me a chai latte this morning (a real treat/pampering idea)
2. H went with me to a doctor's appt. again.
3. I mentioned the possiblity of renewing our vows to my H - came right out before I could stop it - H said he had also thought of doing this. Talk about an answer to prayer.

I am working on catvhing up with everyone. Gone for a few days and goodness gracious! Please know you are in my thoughts and prayers even if I haven't posted.

Thank you all again ~

Mockers,

Miss you, but it's great to hear that you're doing fine!

I also heard those words from my H that he wanted us to be friends and seemed worried about whether we would, strange...

Maybe I should go back and read your threads.

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date, we love hearing the "good stuff"

Deb

Mockers,

It is the conflict-avoiding queen here! And people pleaser, so it is much easier to give out advice and suggested ways of handling incidents than in my own life.

I don't think that we all hover over our Hs with advice/criticism, but I think we do a bit (maybe in our body language) and they are very sensitive to it. I read today in a marriage book that one zinger (dig in Ellie talk) can negate 20 positive statements. I guess that is how powerfully hurtful they can be.

I'm glad everyone is doing well despite the difficult situation. I think about you often.

Jackie

Thank you Deb and Jackie - Your posts keep me anchored. I appreciate then more than you can know.

Today has been tougher - both for my H and for my MIL. It is hard to see them hurting so much. This is hard on me and I only knew my FIL for about 12 yrs - I can't imagine how they must be feeling.

Deb - I want to catch up with you. Hopefully I'll have a chance today. I miss everyone too. This bb is a real source of support.

Jackie - Maybe we could start a club for conflict avoiding, people-pleasers!

What you've said sounds really familiar. I think it's true for everyone that it's easier to see things from the outside - you all have certainly enlightened me more times than I could count.

Thank you again for yuor posts - they brighten up my day.

Mockers,

It has to be so hard seeing the people you love hurting. I wish I had something to say to help, but I don't know how you can even begin to erase the pain of something like this.

H and I were talking about the zingers erasing 20 nice comments, so he decides to do a little experiment, he starts saying all these nice things, and I know he is kind of joking around, and then he says, your hair is mousy. And I know it was to prove a point, and it did, because I asked him (kidding, sort of), is my hair mousy? Should I color it....and his response was you didn't hear everything else I said, all your remember is the mousy part, and it is so true! So now I think I should be a red head! As soon as I lose 50 pounds. But, it really did bring home the point to me, how powerful one simple (even good intention) comment can outweigh the postivies. Just made me think of hair washing, even if you don't say anything about all the other things he does with the kids, that is the one that will stand out with him. Always learning how my mouth can get me in trouble.

Jackie

Thank you, Jackie - it helps to hear from you - I see more and more how I could have been coming across to my H - even though I never would have intended to come across as I did. I guess I was thinking I love him so much, he has to see how much.

I am trying to be very careful to be complimentary and thank him for all he does. Some days I feel like such a jerk.

Forgot to post my positives:
1. H and I had a great afternoon together.
2. We have been laughing alot.
3. H is holding my hand all the time in the car now, and continues to open my door for me.

Off to try and be productive for a little while ~

Good morning - thinking of all of you and saying prayers.

Positives:
1. H has told me several times that I'm wonderful and that he's thankful for me!
2. I am no longer gripped with fear when H's cell phone rings.
3. The thoughts of OW are less and less.

Thank you again for all your support and terriffic posts. Now, again - off to try and be productive

Thanks, Ellie. It's amazing, really, some of the things I'm learning through all this. Really an eye-opener, and a truly humbling experience too. Trying to continue to use the information as motivation for change, instead of more fuel for beating myself up.

One of my goals (in the original set, I think

) was to start a new sport - as I think athletic companionship would really be a strong link in our R and M. I haven't done this yet, but want to - not only for my M, but for me too. I've never thought of myself as athletic, but I enjoy trying and am able to do fairly well. My H, on the other hand, is super athlete - cycling cross country, etc. I really admire how you've taken on challenges (Mt. Whitney,snowboarding)and are enjoying this new facet of your life. It is inspirational for me.

Thank you for stopping by - I value your posts - both here and on other threads.

Mockers,

Things seem to be going really well. I bet letting go of that fear when the cell phone rings is also spilling over to your behaviors and thoughts. Yeah to putting the OW out with the trash!

Keep listing the positives. Attitude is everything.

Jackie

Good morning, everyone ~

Posted yesterday, but it disappeared. Not sure why that happens?????

Thank you, Jackie for your constant support. I really appreciate it tremendously. It really may be affecting my behavior for the better. Hopefully it is. It caught me so off guard when I noticed that I am not getting tense or afraid when H's cell phone rings. Also, since my FIL died, the thoughts of the OW are much, much less. This just brought home the point to me that, whatever my circumstances, there are so many many wonderful things for me to spend my time and energy thinking about. Why waste my life reliving the pain?

A little dip in the pma yesterday, but things are better today. Positives:
1. H has been thinking of what to do on our next date.
2. Alot of hand holding, snuggling lately.
3. H has told me a couple of times that he is thankful for me. Talk about an answer to prayer!

Work has kept me off the bb for most of the week and will continue to do so until next week some time. Please know that I am thinking of you and praying for you, even when I am unable to post much. I learn something new here every day. You are all so terrific!!!! Thank you all for your posts and encouragement. This bb is a blessing.

Here is a copy of a prayer of confession I found in a chapel that I thought some of you may appreciate ~

Lord of the just and unjust, we confess that your ways puzzle us and your commands are difficult. It is not easy to bless those who insult us and to pray for those who abuse us. You summon us to love the ungrateful and the selfish, just as we love those who are kind and generous. This too is a hard demand. In your mercy, God, forgive us. For we have cursed those who have cursed us; we have heaped scorn on the selfish, rather than love. Deliver us from bitterness. Rescue us from resignation. And lift us from despair to hope and trust in your mercy and justce. Amen

Pastoral prayer:

Lord, somehow we always find that your abundant mercy more than meets our need. If we look back on the hard times, we find that you filled our empty lives with grace. We have seen sickness and grief. We have been far from those we love in their time of need, and have been unable to help. {Emphasis mine.} We have endured all kinds of unfortunate circumstances. Because our sorrow grieves you as much at it does us, we know that you seek to strengthen us through hardship. You use the empty place within us as a chalice which you fill not with tears, but with new wine, a renewed sense of joy in life. We offer ourselves now, in silent prayer, to the working of your spirit. Amen.

Both prayers just seemed to what's gone on in my life over the past year. The italicized part above made me think of the part I played in the pre-bomb R.

Take care, everyone ~

Another dip in the pma last night. Our older child is asking only for her daddy again, and saying very directly (that she doesn't want me. H thinks it's just a phase, but I wonder sometimes. A friend of mine at works says it shows she is really secure in my love for her and that she's attached to me. Lately I've been letting it go, but last night it just hurt.

I realized last night that it's similar to the feelings I've had before of not being good enough, fear of being left behind/not loved. It's something I have to deal with, as I don't want it to affect my R with her or with my H.

I had been trying to keep my feelings about this from H, but last night he heard me crying. He was very supportive, but I know it is not what he needs right now as things are getting tougher at this point in dealing with his father's death.

Sorry for such a sad sack post - just need to get this out here, so I can move past it for now. This a.m. went well. I acted as if I was the grown up and that I know she loves me, etc. Listened to my H without offering my opinion - maybe I offered one

, but I didn't interrupt, which is good.

Positives:
1. H and I have the day off together tomorrow.
2. H has called me the last two days to thank me for his lunch.
3. We have another date next week.

Hope all of you have a good weekend. I'll be saying prayers and keeping you in my thoughts.

Mockers,

It is sad when the prefer the other P, H and I have a name for it, we are the PP, or preferred parent for the day. It cycles with ours, except every morning when S4 gets up the first words out of his mouth are Where's Dad? Nothing about me. I have read about kids going through phases where they prefer a different sex/same sex parent depending on the age they are. I think I agree with you H, it is probably just a phase. For me (and since I'm a stay at homer, I see the kids a lot) it is a bit of a relief when I'm not PP. But, there are probably some child rearing books out there that would address this issue and make you feel better. Sometimes just knowing it is a phase and it is normal helps you get through it. Do an amazon search or browse the local book store and see what you can read about it. Heck, treat yourself to some coffee or tea and hang out at the local bookstore and browse the books while H deals with the kids.

The list of positives is good!

Jackie

Hi MarcDinFog ~ Tahnks for stopping by. Sorry, guess I should've worded this more clearly - this most recent 180 is too personal to write about. There are quite a few others I have tried, though - all pretty simple and most of them come from ideas I've seen here or in DR:
1. ordering something different for dinner
2. wearing something different - a different style or a color I don't usually wear
3. Different perfume
4. be out when usually I'd be home (early on - a little while after the bomb)
5. send funny emails
6. hire a sitter and go out with friends instead of staying home when H couldn't keep the children

Things like that have really gotten his attention consistently. If I think of others, I'll post them. Where is your thread?

Positives:
1. H helped me with a project for the children last night.
2. We just keep laughing!

3. H continues to be supportive of me and the projects I'm working on - both at home and at work.

Hope you are all doing well. Thank you for your encouragement.

Positives:
1. H went out of town overnight on business - he called to say he missed me and the children about four times - the first time was about one hour after he left.
2. H mentioned going to church (in the context that I would like to go - meaning me, but he mentioned it, none the less). I just said that yes I'd like to go.
3. We may be moving b/c of H's work this summer - I have been viewing this possibility as an adventure, instead of being completely overwhelmed with fear, which, to quote Marlin, "is a big deal, for me."

Still have a long way to go in the fear department, but this is a start.

Hope you all are doing well today. I continue to keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Thank you for the support and encouragement.

Now for a technical question-

I was trying to look back at some of my old threads, and they're all gone. I never linked this thread to my previous thread, so maybe I can't find them anymore???? Is there a way to retrieve them after they've been purged from the bb? Thanks ~

Click on your name and then view all posts... you should be able to find them that way.

Your posts are all gone! What's up with that?

Holdingon - I was able to find them by clicking on my name, then on view all posts. Thank you very much. Now I'll try to link that last thread to this one - the others are all linked already.

Here's the link to my previous thread:

web page

I think!

No! Ooooops!

Try # 2

http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB40&Number=610181&Forum=All_Forums&Words=8589&Match=Username&Searchpage=4&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=565955&Search=true#Post610181

Hopefully this worked~

For some reason I can't post at the end of this thread - the "reply" box is missing????

Maybe posting here will work. Hope you are doing well. Things here are going pretty well overall, despite a very low PMA dip on my part???? Don't know what is wrong with me - just feeling like I'm not doing a good job in any facet of my life. Feeling a bit overwhelmed.

H has been wonderful, though, and hasn't seemed to notice, although I fear he probably has noticed, but is taking it in stride. I'm just feeling a little nervous in that I don't want to slip back into pro-bomb negative habits (especially the low self-esteem).

I rowed my own boat (to use Jackie's term)last night and went out with some friends, and while I was alone in the car I realized that under the surface, there is still alot of sadness. I haven't really felt this is a while. ??????

Anyway, I just need to pick myself up, put on a smile and push myself out of this hole I'm falling into.

Positives:
1. H said I looked great this AM - I was able to smile and say thank you with confidence, even though I feel like I look awful.
2. H and I watched a movie over the weekend together - like a mini date at home.
3. Still lots of laughing.
4. H is coming with me again to a doctor's appointment - this is something new - he has never done this except for OB appointments in the past.
5. H whistled at me a couple of times this weekend.

So why can't I feel happier? Yuck! Off to get some work done (work has gotten so crazy) and give myself a kick in the pants ~ Sorry for the sadsack post. Just needed to get it out. I truly have so much to be thankful for. I guess having some down days is a normal process in all this.

Take care, everyone. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Hey Mockers,

I know that kick in the pants feeling, I need one here. All is going well with H, he has been a gem, I just feel a bit lacklustered (is that even a word). Here at the library with a book called Stop Feeling Tired. I feel like I have lead in my bones.

Glad you rowed your own boat, maybe I don't do enough of it myself. It is probably harder for you with work and kids, but probably even more vital to have some fun for yourself.

Keep acting as if and thanking H for the compliments. Nothing is worse than giving a compliment and having someone tell you why you are wrong! So accept them as a fact, even if you don't think you look good, H does! And men can be right in some instances.

Keep smiling!

Jackie

Thank you, Jackie for your post. It means alot to me to hear from you. Maybe I should check out that book too - feeling like I have lead in my bones too.

One thought for you - have your had your thyroid checked? It is an idea. Alot of women have thyroid disease that is unrecognized.

Mine is low, and I'm on meds. My levels were fine the last time they were checked. Your "lead in my bones" comment made me think of this.

Off to continue to kick myself in the pants. Anyone have a 2x4 I could borrow and use on myself?

HI Mockers! For some reason it feels good to know we are normal in that we all have these down feelings even thought there are lots who would kill to be reconciled or working on OR. Sounds like a few of us that have reconciled have put our own feelings off to the side in order to DB and when we get closer to our spouse we have to somehow work through the hurt of the lies and bad behavior and trying to ignore it to get to a higher place still hurts our self esteem I think. Ignore is a bad work- FORGIVE. Just the feeling of rejection makes us wonder what is wrong with me? I struggle a lot too and have never been so down on myself until this happened. I think somehow we have to get over it and it CANT be at the risk of sabotaging our own happiness. We cant punish ourselves. Somehow we let ourselves off the hook for keeping track of the hurt and what our response "should" be. Well, it is not our fault that our S decided to have an A. I didnt cause that. He chose to do and as he says, has to live with that for the rest of his life.
I see myself doing it- I get upset that he doesnt feel "sorry" enough, I put a wedge between us, I feel worse and get thankful we are together and hope I didnt hurt our new fragile R!!!!
What are some things that help? for me it is: doing things I want to do , becoming more independant by focusing on my wants. Like going for a run if I want or taking a bath if I want and trying to nicely voice things that bother me or opening up a little when I am upset. I dont know if these are all that good! but I would love to hear about other ways to fight off the destruction of making ourselves feel bad because we choose to forgive. Or try our best to !!!
I love hearing about your sitch and the good things that H does or says. My H sent me flowers for V-day!! and a virtual flower too.
Shay

ooooooooooooooooooooops!!!!

Hi - work has me completely snowed under. Thinking of all of you and keeping you in my prayers.

My thread looks funny to me - very wide, so that I have to use the cursor to read it - can anyone help?

A couple of positives:
1. H was having a tough time a few days ago dealing with his father's death - we were talking on the phone and something about his tone of voice triggered fear in me - as it sounded like he did on the night of the bomb. I asked if there was anything wrong as far as we were concerned. He said. "No! We're great!"
2. Yesterday, H again having a hard time - frustrating morning with the children. His behavior again seemed like bomb behavior, so I got scared. I was tearful as we got into the car - H asked what was wrong, showing real concern instead of irritation with me. I bit the bullet and was honest and told him that sometimes when he is like this, I feel afraid. H was very kind and reassuring and said that he has never been happier. What a tremendous answer to prayer.
3. H and I working together on paying the bills.

Thank you, Shay for stopping by. I want to catch up with you as soon as I can. Take care.

Your thread comes up wide for me too, I wonder why that happens?

I like that you told him straight out what was bothering you and gave him the chance to reassure you! Seems like the quickest method to resolving these things might be to just state our feelings. Whenever H gets grumpy or quiet, I keep waiting for him to bolt again.

Is a move still a possiblitiy for you? How do you feel about that? From this end it sounds like things are going great for you! I'm glad.

Jackie

Hi everyone - Thank you, Jackie. I know what you mean about waiting for him to bolt and feeling afraid when he is quiet. I think it will just take time to get out of that mode.

Having a yucky day today. I need some help with this one - probably need some 2x4's. Just feel like I need to get this out before I really screw things up.

Yesterday, H brought a latte up to my work. He had come back to look up his schedule (we work in the same place). It felt so good to feel like I was special, and to feel he was thinking of me. Everyone at work said how sweet he seemed over and over.

Well, this morning, when we took the children to school, the director came out and thanked H for bringing her a latte. I realize that this is no big deal at all, but I have let it hurt my feelings. Instead of seeing it as my H being thoughtful and kind, I am feeling like I am just one of the girls, that what he did for me wasn't that special after all. This woman has been having a very hard time, and it was a kind thing to do - I am embarrassed to even write this.

I guess I just felt cherished yesterday, and today, I don't feel so cherished after all.

I managed to act mostly like nothing was wrong, but I know my H could tell something was up when he dropped me off.I lied and said I was tired (I am, but that's not what's wrong). Good grief - I sound pathetic.

It's not that I mind that he got a latte for her too - I just want to feel like I'm special to him, and that he chooses me, wants to be with me, likes me best. My H would see it that I am being jealous, but this is not how I feel - I just feel less special than I did yesterday.

This is the kind of situation that was one of the main problems before the bomb. H seeing me as being jealous, and me just feeling like I wasn't good enough.

My plan is just to get myself together and act as if I'm fine this afternoon. To not mention it at all, as I am not sure we could discuss it without an argument.

I find myself, on days like this wondering if we've really made that much progress.

Thanks for letting me get this out. Off to dry my tears and get to work - I'm already running late. Sorry for such a down post.

The other part about this whole thing that bothers me is that my H didn't tell me he took her a coffee. This makes me concerned that he is afraid to tell me because of how I would respond - another one of his complaints about me. The secrecy makes it harder for me to learn about. I think it would have been less of a deal if he had said to me that he took her one too. Of course none of this has probably crossed my H's mind at all - just mine, which doesn't seem to be in such good shape today.

M--

You are going to drive yourself nuts with the assumptions!

First, I can understand exactly how you feel. He made a really nice gesture towards you, but then you find out it is the same gesture he makes towards other people, diminishes the specialness. However, as someone who understands, it is also irrational! Why do we think that just because they are kind to other people, we aren't the most special ones in their lives? Can't we accept that they enjoy being kind. Perhaps he brought you the latte, saw your reaction--pleased, happy, glad someone took time out for them and thought of this lady having a bad day/week/year and thought perhaps, based on your reaction, she would also like some kindness. M, I think so many of us here would have the same tune as you running through their heads and I wonder if it is because we are still a bit insecure in our new relationships. Because it seems a bit selfish of us to not want our H's to spread kindness to other people.

If you are correct that he didn't bring it up because he wasn't sure how you would react, chances are he was wise not to do so! He perhaps sees that you are still fragile in the security of your M and does not want to say anything that could tip the balance of happiness. I doubt it was a conscious choice, just some firing in the back of his brain, some type of instinct.

But, I think when we recognize we are being a bit irrational, that is the first step in figuring out why and solving it. How? No clue in the world! I know I'm completely irrational about my Ils and BIL and SIL, but don't know how to figure it out. And if poor H says one nice thing about them, my mind does tons of jumps and leaps to how he is thinking and doesn't care about me.

I think this is just another part in the struggle/journey towards peace and acceptance in ourselves and our partners. Be glad that he is a kind and caring man. Your children will see that and that is a model they will have in their life.

I hope some of this rambling made sense. No answers, just think you are human like the rest of us!

XOXO

Jackie

When did your original thread start.How long did it take you to get this far? How long were you 2 separated?

I have been separated for 3 months. I am obsessing over another woman and I don't even have any proof that there is one! I just feel that nothing but promise of something perfect is the only thing that would keep you from your family for so long.

Thank you, Jackie - I can always count on your posts to help me see through the rough patches. I almost didn't post all of that - because I was afraid of how I would sound - completely nuts. That's just why I did it - to get out the crazies, so I could go on with the day. It's wierd - I could totally see how irrational the feelings were. That whole incident is teid to my lifelong feelings of low self esteem. This is something I thought I had made some progress with - obviously I need alot more work in thius area. It wasn't so much that I didn't want him to be nice to someone else - it just made me feel that I was less than special, which is a feeling I have had forever. This week has just been one during which I feel like I'm doing a bad job in every part of my life. (For the last two weeks work has been just awfully busy and stressful. This will change on Monday.The house is a mess, I've yelled at the children.....Inside I feel like there's no room at all for any more stress - I've also been very tired - I even slept through a page last night - which I've never done before.) Everyone says this isn't true, and when I come out of my fog enough to think clearly, I see that it's not true - the feelings are just so hard to shake. I have wondered if being off OCP's is making me more emotional in general - I don't know? My other thought was that maybe I'm depressed - but why would I be depressed at this point? Ellie - are you out there?

I am actually proud of H that he is so kind - this is one of the things I was most attracted to initially and one of the traits in H that reminds me of his father (who I've really been missing so much lately), which is a good thing.

Things are better today, although I think I've lost the keys to the car!

Nitaf - thank you for your post. I joined the board in 4/03. My threads have disappeared, but you can get to them by way of a link at the beginning of this thread. My H and I were separated form 2/03 until mid October of '03. We had started to reconcile in 7/03, but H worked out of town for three months, so didn't move back home or give up his other house until 10/03. So, I guess about 5 months of separation because of the R and three months b/c of H's job. If he hadn't gone out of town, I'm not sure when he would've moved back in.

As hard as it is, try not to obsess about an OP. I want to read your thread - hopefully I will be able to in the next day or so. Hang in there.

M,

Hang in there. I have been reading your post and it just seems likeyou have done some of what all of us LBS do regress a little and start wondering all over again if they are having the A or what not. My only advice is to realize what you are doing and get back on the horse and do what you know you need to do to get going in the right direction. Take some time out for yourself and get refocused.

Lee

Hi Lee - thank you for posting. You're right, I just needed to see what I was doing and redirect myself emotionally. It is tough to do that at times, but easier in some ways after reading DR. I'm glad to hear things are going better in your life. Terriffic job on using your W's LL - good to be seeing some positive results of all your efforts!

Hang in there, too. You have come a long way!

Lately I've been letting myself focus on some of the hurtful things that have happened in the last year - not things related to H or the separation, but things others have done. This is really interfering greatly with my ability to forgive, so I must work on this and keep praying. I have decided that I am not capable of forgiving some of God can do it for me. I am planning to write a letter to a man who betrayed our trust in the post bomb period (we thought he was a friend, but obviously he was not). One of those "I may never mail it" letters, just to get the feelings out. Maybe that will help.

Positives:
1. Tha tulips we (H, the children and I) planted together are coming up - a few each day! Everyone seems excited. This is one area I am pleased with - I actually see some progress here - that we are accomplishing one of our goals. H seems proud too. It is good to see him smile.
2. H and I had another good date this week - alot of laughing.
3. We have the weekend off together - neither of us work for the first time in several weeks.

Another thing to work on - I am finding myself feeling frustrated that H and I have so little time to talk to each other. We are doing well with the date nigths, but on most other nights, we are both so tired that wejust go straight to bed - not very exciting. Need to brainstorm on this.

Take care, everyone. Keeping all of you in my thoughts and prayers. Thank you for your encouragement.

Thanks Ellie - that's a great suggestion! I hope that you and your family are doing well.

Well, I can see some more old patterns - H has had a rough day dealing with family issues and wants to go for a beer tonight. I have remained ok I think, but feel those same feelings and fears creeping up - will he stay out late, is he drifting away again. I don't want the stress of this time after his father's death to push him over the edge again.

Going to try and present an upbeat attitude, and be supportive, but I'm wondering if it's OK to say I don't want us to drift apart again????? Guess I'll just see how he seems, see if it would be a good time to discuss this - or maybe I'll sleep on it tonight and talk tomorrow???? I hate feeling the fears returning!

Hi Twin!

I think we are going through some of the same things, possibly a normal by product of piecing?

What could he do about going out for a beer that would make you feel better? Knowing where he is, who he is with, when he'll be home, etc.? If you are able to pin point what you need to feel secure then you can let him know in a non-accusatory way: I'm glad you are going out with your friends, but if you could...., it would greatly help me, I'm still getting used to us being us again. Do you think that would help? Is he okay about giving you reassurances? Or does it annoy him? If it annoys him, ignore my advice!

I understand about the evening and falling asleep thing. At least you are wise enough to get out on your own, I'm a slow learner there. Does he like to sit and talk at night? What can the two of you do to relax together or just hang out? H has been working the 14 hour days here, so I'm stuggling with this too. And it is something the T keeps telling us, we need to build it in to our weekly schedule, couple time. When you go out just the two of you, it sounds like you reconnect, do you get to do it weekly?

Enjoy the weekend off together. And tulips! I'm jealous. I'm looking at snow and 4-6" more tomorrow. Ugh!

Jackie

Yes, Jackie - we do seem like twins at times! I think you're right that it is a normal process of piecing. Your suggestion was excellent - I should have used it!

Instead, I allowed the fears that came up (because it all felt so much like pre-bomb behavior and patterns) to govern my response, and almost really screwed up.

I acted fine until it came time for H to leave - then I asked him how late he thought he'd be out. (The friend he was meeting lives out of town, so I knew he wouldn't be able to stay out late at all.) H said he was planning on meeting that friend, then one of his other friends (who gets off work at around 8:30 pm), and that then he might meet some people from work, so he wasn't sure how long he'd be out. This made me angry and I said some things I shouldn't have said - "When I go out, you know when I'll be home. I don't stay out until 2 or 4 AM and not call you.I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to call me and let me know you're OK. You're a husband and a father, and I don't think I'm asking too much of you to call and give me an idea that you are alright.) I know, I know, I know - I sounded like a mother talking to a teenage boy. Not exactly my goal. H then said, "do you not want me to go?" Me: Yes I want you to go, I'd just appreciate you calling me and letting me know you're OK. I also told him that he seemed angry with me just asking for him to call me and that alot of the time, I'm afraid to ask or say what's on my mind. H said, "I'm sorry you feel that way." (This last bit is true, but not the right time or the right way to bring it up.)

H was also angry because I said some of this in front of the children - they aren't old enough to understand "Go in the other room, so Daddy and I can talk for a minute."

So, I didn't do a great job at all, but at least I didn't say:
* It is ridiculous that an almost forty year old man is going out for drinks with a bunch of single or divorced people from work - most of them female.
*I don't treat you like this.
*I have never put you in this situation.
*Is she going?
*This is how you were acting before you left - are you planning on leaving again?
*Who's going to be there?

Yeah, I did well not saying any of that. So, maybe there has been some progress after all. I also didn't raise my voice, which is a step in the right direction too.

After H left, I cried and cried (poor kids

), so scared that he'd say, "see, you're not different." And leave, or be so angry at me that he'd stay out all night and do something crazy. Well, none of that happened.

H called me three times, once after my father called him b/c I had called them crying (said I was missing my FIL, which was true as well), and he was worried about me, and twice on his own. I acted fine all three times, and didn't ask any questions. He didn't stay out too late, and that night and the next morning, things were fine.

So, we can rewrite our old patterns, it will just take alot of prayer, self control and concentration.

I guess, Jackie, it would make me feel better for him to say "I'll be in around _____.", and to call me every so often and let me know he's OK. I guess deep down it would make me feel better to know that the former OP wasn't going to be there, but I certainly don't feel comfortable bringing her up - it still makes me physically sick, and H and I haven't discussed her directly in almost a year.

What you posted sounds great - very reasonable and describes accurately how I feel. I'm not sure about the reassurances - sometimes H seems to understand, but in other situations, he seems annoyed that I need them - kind of the attitude that, "I'm here, what more reassurance could you posssibly need?" Which, in a way, makes sense.

The evenings are tough on some days - I have been exhausted for som reason, and H has been tired too, but on nights when we have more energy, we might watch a movie together (this is a treat, b/c we watch no TV), or sit and read books together. We also sit and talk alot, make plans, run ideas by each other.

You are alos right that we reconnect on our date nights - we can't do it every week, but have established the goal of every two weeks, and have been doing a pretty good job with that. It is tough to build in couple time - especially with two small children, and when money is tight. Have you checked out the date night ideas on the flylady website? There are alot of good ideas for in home (after the kids are asleep) and inexpensive dates.

On the up side, we had a great weekend. Lots of good family time, and a little couple time - children asleep in the car

.

Just need to stay focused on the posisitve, and keep praying. Also, I need to keep reminding myself that my H just lost his father and is still dealing with this grief. Need to try and see him with empathy again - this is something that has always helped.

Thank you for your post, Jackie. Hoping to get caught up with you today.

Positives:
1. H and I reworked one of our old patterns, with a good outcome. A friend I called in panic reminded me of the idea that if I change my behavior, H may respond differently, and that things can be different this time.
2. H complimented me on my figure

.
3. More and more and more laughing.

Hang in there, everyone. You continue to be in my prayers.

So why don't you get a sitter and go out with him when he goes out with these people from work? I'm fine with my h going out for an evening with his male buddies, but if there are women involved, you'd better bet I expect to be included!!!!

Ellie

Short notice was part of it the other night. But H has always gone out some - not very often - with his friends. Sometimes this is just guys - like the two guys I mentioned above, but sometimes, b/c of the nature of H's work, there are women who go too. In the past, when H went out with a group, I was invited, but often couldn't go b/c of school or work.

This has been an issue for H and me in the past. I would be wishing I could go, and missing H. H saw it as me being jealous of his female friends. I also have had low self esteem and felt I wasn't as interesting as his friends, which H couldn't understand at all - adding frustration.

I guess saying I'd like to go too, when he's going out with a group like that would be a 180 - I just wouldn't want H to see it as me being controlling or not trusting him. Also, sitting in a smokey bar for several hours doesn't sound like that much fun to me any more.

I wouldn't want to invite myself along when he's with just the guys, as I see this as time for him to talk with his friends about his father, and whatever else.

I just want H to feel he can have time with his friends like I do, although it is a bit different - I go to a girl's night out group once a month - all but one married with children - and we eat at each other's houses. A little different from going out with guys and girls - most of them single, twenty-somethings. See my delimma?

Here are the words to a song H shared with me - I thought you might enjoy it ~

The more I'm looking,
The less I find,
The less I find
Peace of mind.

The more I struggle,
The less I feel,
The less I feel free.

The more I know you,
The more I see, and
The more I know me.

For what a story we made.
Each day another revelation.
What a story we made,
Come, let's fill our hearts with jubilation.

The more I open,
The more I love,
The less I fear.

For each day we're given,
I thank God,
I thank God that we're here.

Cause what a story we made.
Each day another tribulation.
What a story we made.
Come let's quench our thirst in the waters of creation.

Forest Sun

Thank you, Jackie for your post. You are right, we are going through so much of the same stuff!!!!!! Maybe we could plan a double date - your h and my h saound very similar in some ways too. Got to go to a meeting, but want to update this afternoon. Take care, and keep up the good work!!!! Glad to see you back!!! And, yes, I say thank you when he comliments my figure - or anything else. An improvement over rolling my eyes in response to compliments in the past!

Update and some positives:

Things have been going well. Still battling the fear at times, but I realize that even this is getting better little by little. Work has been crazy, which keeps my mind off the creepies, but h and I have also been planning and making some decisions for our future, which feels really solid and good.

I have also been given some insight (thank you, God) into how I may have increased the stress in the pro-bomb period. Basically, I felt alot of resentment pre-bomb towards h with regards to child care and also to me not having any time to myself. I have come to realize recently that I never asked for help with the children (until I had really had it) or made a plan for something I wanted to do and talked to h about it. Good grief! And it took me how long to see this? This also gives me some insight into how I may have come across to h as controlling and resentful.

Need to work on asking for what I need and want.

I also have been given the gift of seeing my h with empathy in the last week or so. I have really been able to see his pain - currently and pain from the past. This has happened before, but this time it even extended into my thinking about h leaving, which is new - maybe a baby step in the forgiveness department. God is good, certainly.

Positives:
1. h and I just keep laughing (know I keep listing this one, but I think it's key.)
2. We had a disagreement about how I was handling something - I was able to do a fairly good job of saying to h that I neede him to be empathetic, and then be quiet. No voice raising, etc. H apologized and said he didn't want our different ways of handling things to interfere with our r. Amazing! small steps, I guess, but they feel huge.
3. date planned for next week.
4. I was sick last week and h took very good care of me - very considerate and thoughtful.
5. Thoughts of op are less and less frequent. I'm finding myself thinking of other things without so much effort to redirect my thoughts.

I have identified another one of my issues - the idea (stolen from Ellie's thread) of athletic companionship. I'll have to write more on this later.

Hope you are all having a good day. Take care - you are in my prayers.

Everytime I do something different or new, he says I am proud of you! He is a very confused and strange dude!

Thank you, Ellie. I will look up the marriage builders site - I've read about it in several threads here.

It's amazing that it took me this long and going through a separation, etc. to see how I contributed. I am thankful for this insight, though, and plan to use it now to work on my communication skills.

Taking time for myself has been an issue b/c I work full time. I know now that I am a better mommy and wife when I have breaks, but I feel so torn at times leaving the children. I see them so little, and when I am with them, it's "let's get into the tub; time for brushing teeth, bedtime....etc.." I have always felt a bit guilty, and have missed the children when I've taken time to myself. Feel like I don't want to miss anything, they are growing up so quickly. Also, we have had limited family time b/c of work schedules, etc., so I hesitated to go off on my own when we had time to spend together. H seems not to have this same problem. And I know, it's all in the balance. H and I are discussing/have discussed this isssue, and are working on it, with some progress. Now, I just need to work on my own attitude. Part of this is a result of me being axious about things in general - this has always been the case, but has worsened since we had children (an exageration of the normal repsonse?)Or maybe I have generalized anxiety disorder.

The athletic companionship issue is somewhat related to my self image/low self-esteem. I've just never considered myself to be athletic. I played soccer in middle school, but in HS, my efforts were channeled more into academics/yearbook/school representative. I have done weight training in the past (loved this - was in a class when hand I met), and ran briefly in college (very briefly

). When h and I started seeing each other, we walked 3.5 miles every morning. I know some sort of exercise would benefit me in alot of ways - physically, psychologically, and would be a great example for the children (mommy takes care of herself too). I just feel at times that I'm trying to be something I'm not. No, I don't have to be a triathlete in order to get some exercise. H is very athletic. Triathalons, etc. The one time I saw h with someone during the separation - a girl I think was probably the former op - they were cycling. I guess I've always felt inferior in this respect. He runs, with me, he walks. So, I don't measure up to his abilities like other women do.

This all came up again (came to the surface of the swirling thoughts) this past weekend. One of my best friends from school is also very athletic. She was in town for a duathelon (sp?)- a run-bike-run. She is obsessive about exercise. She also is single with no children. She and h could talk about bikes, etc., and I have no clue about any of that. I wasn't jealous, I just feel that this is one area in which h and I could really connect if I were more like him. I also realized how much of an issue this is for me b/c I felt uneasy thinking of going to the race and being the only one who's never been in a race.

Don't think I'm explaining myself well at all.

This probably isn't as much of an issue to h as it is to me. I just think a 180 in this area would bring us closer in another way. But doing something just to bring us closer isn't the right reason - I need to become more active for me. And the more active me would be more attractive to h - I know it. I just don't want to pretend to be someone I'm not.

Ellie - were you very athletic before you climbed Mt. Whitney?

Ideas for physical activity for me:
weight training (we have a weight set in the garage)
rollerblading
walking
hiking
martial arts (Jackie

)
yoga
aerobics

Nitaf, You are right - they do like seeing us try new and different things! Hope you are doing well.

Thank you, Ellie - as always great suggestions!

Forgot to post my positives!
1. H brought up our date next week, including his idea for what to do, and when. Taking the initiative to talk about the details is something new for h.
2. In conversations, h is really making a point to not interrupt. (Me too.)
3. We've been discussing finances/future plans. The conversations are going well.
4. H said he thinks I'm terriffic!(this was in response to me telling him he's terriffic, but it's still good!)

Hope you all have a good weekend. Thinking of you and keeping you in my prayers.

Time for an update~

Had to think this one over a bit, as I feel it's really significant.....A few days ago, it became necessary for h and I to talk to another person about the separation (long story, not important). It really caught me off guard, but I got tearful and had to tell h that I didn't think I'd be able to talk about it right then w/o crying. H handled it, and I went to another part of the house, got busy with something, and pulled myself together. My plan was to act as if I was fine, and keep going. H came to me with a look on his face that broke my heart. He hugged me tightly, for a long time and said "I'm sorry." There, now - I've heard the words. And how did I feel? I felt the pain my h was feeling. It didn't make me feel better. It just showed me - in words - what my h has been "saying" since he came home. That he is truly sorry for the pain he caused, and that he is still hurting about it all too. It seemed that he's sad for what we missed with each other and with the children. It sounds strange, but it was like God opened up a little window, so I could see inside my h - inside to the vulnerable part, the hurting part.

I have had several glimpses like this of my h in the last few weeks. Truly, they are gifts from God.

This realization says to me, "Let it go. Move on. Forgive him." I thought I was doing a pretty good job, but this showed me that part of me still wanted to hear him say how sorry he is. Punishing him, in a way. Putting distance between us. Holding him at arms length.

Now I have the goal of really forgiving him./i] How to do this?
1. Each day, when I wake up, make the decision to forgive him and live as if he's forgiven. (Stop the scenarios in my head about how I've been hurt. Fantasies about confronting the OW, etc.)
2. Redirect my thoughts when the "how could he have done this to me" thoughts come up.
3. Live each day as a gift - because that's what they are - smile, laugh, see the joy in our everyday days.
4. Pray, pray, pray about the fears and my fearful nature in general - this is a decision too.

We saw The Passion of the Christ the other day - what an inspiration to me to forgive the others who hurt me - last year and before. Got alot of work to do and a long way to go, but I see these glimpses as gifts and baby steps, for which I am very grateful.

Positives:
1. We may go to Easter vigil!!!!What a tremendous answer to prayer.
2. Got into a disagrrement this am - I was able to use "I" statements without thinking about it quite so hard.
3. Our date went well.
4. A project h and I have been working on seems to be coming together.

Thinking of you all and keeping you in my prayers.

Posted By: mockers2 Re: Forgetting those things which are behind...... - 04/12/04 04:42 PM

Positives:
1. We had a really good Easter weekend. The most amazing thing - we went to mass!!!!!! This is something we haven't done together as a family in probably close to two years! H is also talking about joining a new parish. An incredible answer to prayer!
2. H talks more and more about our future plans.
3. We were able to laugh ourselves out of a disagreement this weekend.
4. I've been able to bite my tongue and hold something in - usually a sarcastic comment made in haste - several times, with good results.

Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers ~

Posted By: mockers2 Re: Forgetting those things which are behind...... - 04/21/04 07:57 PM

Hi - Been away form the bb for a little while. Each time I read posts, I see how much I learn form all of you. Reading keeps me motivated and thinking positive, and also helps me stay focused. Thank you all for sharing with me - you are all so incredible and courageous.

I continue to keep you all in my thoughts and prayers.

Positives:
1. We have decided to join a new parish!!!!! This is so exciting and amazing to me, since h was questioning everything, including his religious beliefs at the time of the bomb. We have gone to mass twice in the last few weeks as a family.
2. We bought a house - one of our goals for a while. It is so good to see h feel a sense of accomplishment, and it feels good to be planning somehting together for our future.
3. God is making some headway in my heart in forgiving the op and our former priest who betrayed us.

Thank you again, for all you share with me. You continue to give me strength daily.

Posted By: holdingon Re: Forgetting those things which are behind...... - 04/21/04 09:02 PM

Mockers,
Things sound wonderful for you! Make room for that forgiveness... remember it is for YOU!

Posted By: mockers2 Question - 04/26/04 05:08 PM

Thank you, Holdingon. You are right - the forgiveness is for me. It's a choice I am trying to make every day. I will continue to pray, as I know only God can accomplish this is me. One thing I am becoming accutely aware of are the many ways I fail each day, and that the strength I have shown through this last year has been His strength, not mine. (Not trying to be self-critical, just realizing that He must be an integral part of everything in my life - every aspect.)

Positives:
1. H worked all weekend, and said this AM that he misses me.
2. Had good nights with the children this weekend. Got to keep praying about this - how I treat them, the example I am setting. (Got to work on forgiving myself too, I guess.)
3. H and I have a date this week. He seems to really be enjoying our date nights.
4. H told me he appreciates the work I am doing around the house.
5. H called to see if I could take the afternoon off - he knows I can't, but it's nice to hear that he would liek it if I could.

Now for a question - in alot that I've read - DR and other books, also on quite a few threads here - it seems that an important part of working through the aftermath of an A is talking with your WAS about why it happened. This is something we have not yet done, and I'm wondering if it is truly necessary - can you tell I'm frightened? I'm thining it would be good, I just still feel some pain when thinking about bringing the whole thing up again. (I know very few details about the A - don't know when it started, although I have an idea generally when...Yuck - it's making me sick just thinking about it.)Lately, I've also had more frequent thoughts about the OP - maybe because a year ago this month is when I learned of her?

Anyway, I know we could talk about the why part without talking about the details of the A - I don't think I'll ever want to know the details. They would only fuel my bad thoughts, which lately have been getting less and less frequent. Knowing why would hopefully help me/us avoid the same mistakes. It just seems like it would be a painful process, but also seems like one that would in the long run be beneficial to the R. Just wondering if anyone out there had an opinion/experience/idea. Thank you.

Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers ~

Posted By: kml Re: Question - 04/26/04 05:27 PM

You are making the pretty big ASSumption that he KNOWS why he did it! LOL!!!

Maybe a better tack to take is simply to start talking about what directions you both would like your new R to be going. You know the answer to why the affair started - because isn't it the same for almost every spouse here? He got depressed and/or freaked out about growing older, the OP was available (and/or scheming and manipulative), and the WAS was feeling unloved and unappreciated at home. The excitement of the affair gave them a dopamine rush that temporarily relieved their depression or anxiety and they mistook it for love. Same old same old story - you'd THINK people would be more imaginative, wouldn't you???

Ellie

Trying to group some of the goals and uplifting parts of my old threads to see where I stand and also to try and refocus. I have been feeling a bit down lately, and am having more OP thoughts that I had been having. Also feeling a bit like H and I are falling into somewhat of a rut. Part of this is that H has seemed down more lately (he says it's not us, and I'm mostly beleiving this. Just want to stay vigilant, so that we stay on course. This will probably appear disorganized, but it's a start.

Two poems that I should probably be reading every day. They are written by Robin E. Long Copyright 1998 ~

Fear
I am FEAR. You know me well.
I approach you from behind when you walk in darkness.
I block your vision when you are seeking peace.
I claw my way into your thoughts.
I deceive you so that you believe God cannot help.
I encourage you to dwell on hopelessness.
I find you in your weakest moments and haunt you.
I grab you by the throat and choke out your life.
I hide under your every step and send you reeling.
I imprint myself on your willingness to serve and hold you captive.
I jump out from behind the bushes and tear your flesh.
I kidnap you and desert you in a blinding storm.
I leave you alone under a black cloud.
I magnify your isolation and make it unbearable.
I nurture your doubts and keep them in the forefront of your thoughts.
I occupy your time and make it useless to God.
I plant myself firmly between you and joy.
I quote your failures repeatedly so that you will not forget them.
I render you helpless when faced with difficult choices.
I seize your peaceful moments and ruin them.
I tear away at your confidence.
I undermine your testimony.
I violate your existence and make it miserable.
I wander into your peacefulness and destroy it.
I yearn to keep you in my complete control.
I zig-zag across your path and make it hazardous.
I am FEAR!

Faith

I am FAITH. You embrace me.
I acknowledge your need for forgiveness.
I boast about God's unfailing love.
I cast out your inadequacies and make them strengths.
I deafen your ears to the call of the enemy.
I endure all things and help you cling.
I fall fresh on you each day.
I guide your steps when you walk in fear.
I hold you up when no one else is around.
I influence your difficult choices.
I justify your soul before God.
I keep your mind focused on the truth.
I lead you to a place of quiet contentment.
I move you from despair to hope.
I nourish your hunger for peace.
I open your mind to see signs and wonders.
I pull you back when you stray away from God.
I quiet your troubled spirit.
I remind you that God is able to do more than you can imagine.
I soar with you on eagle's wings.
I teach you to trust the Word.
I uphold you when you are persecuted.
I vibrate the cords of your favorite chorus.
I wind my arms around you and give you joy in trials.
I yield your spirit to God's direction.
I zero out all of your despair.
I am FAITH!! Choose me above fear and walk in peace.

Goals:
*continue to work on baby steps for myself (exercizing, rollerblading - no, Lumpy I haven't broken anything yet, but I haven't gotten them yet - working on the house)
*continue praying several times a day
*continue to develop patience with the children
*act as if in my communication with H
*surprise H with some of the things I mail him (this has made him happy, so I'm going to keep this up)
*try to live in faith about our future, instead of worrying

Now for some goals:
-continue to give H time and space
-continue to let H initiate R talks, and to move through this at his own pace
-to stay steady emotionally, keeping expectations on the baby step level
-to continue to rebuild trust with H (believe what he tells me, give H the benefit of the doubt w/re. to his activities, whereabouts, etc.)
-continue my "no snooping" policy, ask nothing
-validate, listen, no interrupting, no trying to fix
-work on house (mosaic birdbath, continue Flylady program, plant one garden before H returns in October)
-work on me (exercise to tone what's left of me - it would be great if I could have a "six pack" by the time H gets back ; schedule to spend some time on my own while H is gone; develop hobbies and interests and work them into my life somehow - baby steps here too)
-branch out in activities with the children (more visits with friends; visit my sister after she has her baby in Aug.)
-contiually pray, pray, pray
-live in faith instead of fear (reduce obsessive thoughts and awfulizing, so they occupy less and less of my time and energy; use the stop sign and redirect my thoughts)
-act as if I believe my H loves me (one of the problems H has identified from the pre-bomb R - that I never believed how much he loved me)
-act as if the children and I are OK, and will be OK, regardless of what happens
-act upbeat on the phone
-stay busy
-come up with some surprises for H when he comes home - thinking of getting a henna tatoo

A couple of additional goals:
-maintain current weight, while toning up
-practice new recipies

Goals:
*exercise - maybe a new class or activity
*mosaic the birdbath - something I've been planning to do for a while - something H would like and notice
*get house in order
*more time w/friends

Goals (not very well organized):

1. Stay positive and upbeat. Act like his girlfriend (flirt, plan surprises, etc.). I will have to find a balance between the girlfriend role and the wife (with $ and discipline issues to discuss.)
2. Continue acting as if I am confident in our R and in H's love for me. (As I continue to act as if and we work to rebuild trust, I hope to really feel this more and more.) ****
3. Discuss issues calmly w/o showing anger.
****
4. Continue to let H lead this process. Initiate no R talks. No pressure for H to move home, go back to church, etc.
5. Listen, validate, and no interrupting.
6. No snooping (think I've mastered this - haven't done this at all in probably 9 months - even when H gave me more info on OP)
7. Find a release for the tremendous amount of anger I have. This is crucial. It is affecting everything - even my relationship with the children. This is breaking my heart. I also realize that if I don't get this out, it will come out, maybe directed at H, which would be bad.
8. No audible self-criticism. (This is the baby step, which I'm doing well on.) The next step will be to decrease the negative messages I send myself.
9. No sarcasm - good grief it is hard to cut this out
10. Be supportive of his time alone. ****
11. Get into shape (maybe I can combine this with #7 and really see some results )
12. create and maintain a balance between my independence and my closeness with H (I was very independent when H and I met - even refused to date him initially because I didn't want a boyfriend at the time. Where has that girl gone?)
13. Take care of myself ****
14. Take care of the children ****
15. Maintain my newly developed and still shaky confidence as a mother.
16. Stay close to God.
17. walk more and more in faith and less and less in fear. (I don't want to pass on fearfulness to our children.)
18. Pray, pray, pray every day.
19. Try not to beat myself up for not being stronger than I have through all this. Try not to dwell on my faults, but to take steps to correct things a little step at a time.
20. Make progress in the house. Maintain some sense of order.

Goals for us as a couple:
1. Go back to church as a family. (H questioning his beliefs at time of the bomb 1/03. We have not discussed this since probably 2/03. We have left our parrish - I can't manage the children on my own during mass, H stopped going b/c of questioning his beliefs, and one of the clergy there was less than supportive of our marriage when H went to talk to him. This is the source of alot of my anger.)
2. go to Retrovaille
3. date night - at least every two weeks. Every week when $ allows.

Solutions journal/What has worked: items marked by **** are things I have done which have helped based on my own observations and on what H has told me. These are also some of H's criticisms of our pre-bomb R.

Blessings:
1. Closer to God.
2. More confident with the children.
3. Less fearful. I have always feared being left - childhood issues/long story. Now that it has happened, and I'm still standing (only b/c God has held me up every step of the way), the idea is not quite so terrifying, although this is clearly still an issue.

This is some of them - a start anyway.

Thinking of you and keeping you in my prayers.