Nowhere to go

[ANS]

After 6 ½ months without a thread, I feel somehow compelled to start one. Frankly, I don’t know why. I’m not looking for advice, and I have truly run out of options. In any case, I’m not in a particularly receptive mood for advice.

Guess I’m just lonely.

The main source of encouragement I’ve clung to for myself, and offered to others was my belief in the human spirit. WAS’s want the same things we do. They want intimacy and companionship just as much as we do. If they didn’t, then they never would have entered into an R in the first place.

But a WAS has come to the conclusion that they can’t attain what they want with the LBS. S/he has come to believe that the only way to get what they want is to leave the R and hopefully find what they want somewhere else.

I still believe this is true.

I also always believed that if the LBS can demonstrate that the WAS can attain what they seek whilst staying in their current R, the WAS will discover that things weren’t as bad as they once seemed. They’ll see that the source of their discontent isn’t the LBS, and that the R can be a source of great joy.

I still believe this is true.

I always believed that, once the WAS can see that things can be better, they will be able to put the past behind them and the couple can be a team again – working towards a loving fulfilling future together. I believed that as long as both partners come to a point where they want to try, the human spirit can overcome all obstacles.

I no longer believe this is always the case.

My W and I are no longer friends. There was a time when we stood back to back against the world. When something went wrong for one of us, it went wrong for both of us. We were a team. We supported each other.

My W wants out of OR. Leaving OR is not feasable for reasons my old DB friends know about, so she lives her life and does her "job" (stay-at-home-mom).

She wants out, but there's nowhere to go. If I can't revive my M, then I have nowhere to go either.

About a week ago, our beloved DD#2 attempted suicide. W accepted support from her friends. We had nothing to say to each other.

Nurturing our children is her job, and supporting her whilst she does that is a role for her friends.

[ANewBob]

Andy - I can sympathize with you about the loneliness.

A lot of us are here to listen whenever you feel the need. Maybe we can even find a laugh or two somewhere along the way...

[Mellers]

Hi Andy,

I know you're not here for advice or sympathy, but I'm thinking of you now...

Don't let the loneliness overwhelm you - come here and talk. ((((Andy))))

All the best
Mel

[hoping]

Andy...know that others are thinking about you. Please, do come here for the friendship if nothing else.

Sue

[matilda]

Andy,

I am distraught over your daughter's attempted suicide.

I'm so sorry. I pray she is all right. I pray you are all right.

Please e-mail me.

Matilda

[KAW]

Welcome back Andy, altho I sorry it isn't under better circumstances, but it is understandable to me at least why.
Altho not looking for advise, we all need a sounding board to kinda ponder our thoughts ... to get validation we may not be getting which starts to bring on self doubt ... to receive feedback from perhaps a different POV we may not of considered.

I also always believed that if the LBS can demonstrate that the WAS can attain what they seek whilst staying in their current R, the WAS will discover that things weren’t as bad as they once seemed. They’ll see that the source of their discontent isn’t the LBS, and that the R can be a source of great joy.

I still believe this is true.

I, too, have hoped this is true ... now, I have my doubts, but I won't impose on your thread. All I will say here is this past weekend, my W told me she tried to regain the joy and while she doesn't fault me, she believes her source of her joy is still "out there".

I don't mean to be the downer here, but I'm begining to noticed a pattern here. First Lily, then Bridget, now Racheal, myself ... we all seem to have taken a turn for the worse. I find myself asking, How can this be?

'til later,
KAW

[ANS]

Thanks for your thoughts and prayers everyone.

My DD seems to be doing OK. I guess. I wish I was certain.

Mattie: you have mail.

KAW,

If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that everyone is different. It’s true that history seems to repeat itself, and Lily, Bridget, Racheal, yourself, myself have all had downturns in our respective situations.

But Onion, Bridget’s H, Adrian, Lily, Bridget, Rachael,… All different people. All different relationships.

Perhaps there are similarities… patterns. But there are a lot of people who’ve salvaged their relationships too. My good friend Matilda is but one example.

Hang in there, KAW.

[RMC]

Oh Andy, I just got around to reading your thread. I feel awful about you D and your sitchuation.
I cannot imagine what you live day to day.
Please come here and talk to us. You have always been such a support for all of us.
I think we all go through the stages of acceptance. At first we are devastated by the WAS, then we try to be hopeful, and in that period there are many ups and downs. Afer so long though and things do not start to get better but instead deteriorate and you are simply living an existance with each other, hope starts to die. I really think there is a point of no return. If the WAS will not work on the M at all, it cannot be salvaged by one.
I find myslef in that sitch also at this point and at a crossroad.
I hate that you feel you have no options. YOU DESERVE HAPPINESS. I hope somehow you can find it by whatever means. Please know I care deeply for what you are living.
Rachael

[ANS]

Thanks Rachael.

The stages I’ve gone through aren’t exactly the same since W has participated in OR. You know what I’ve gone through on my old threads. You know that despite the fact that things weren’t as I would have liked, I still had a R.

But W has run out of steam (her words).

It’s not her fault. Adrian is behaving very stupidly. My W just can’t handle an autistic son, a suicidal daughter, her own needs, and me too.

She has pondered the possibility of divorce, but she knows that it isn’t an option. It wouldn’t solve any of our problems. She needs me to do whatever I can around the house, and we simply couldn’t afford separate accommodations.

I need her for the same reasons, so all we can do is to live parallel lives under the same roof. We don’t even have enough room in our house to sleep in separate beds, though I sometimes sleep on the couch.

So the “stages” I’ve gone through were devastation, hopefulness, and dying hope. Just as you have described.

But sometimes the very fact that we don’t have options gives me hope. I don’t believe W wants to continue parallel living. Every living human being wants intimacy. She’s no different. Her only choices are to live without it, or to figure out how to get it with me.

But life gets in the way. Hopeless? For both of us? Sometimes I think so.

My W deserves happiness too, Rachael. She’s had the hardest life of anyone I know.

**sigh**

[LonelyAtNight]

Hi Andy,
I hardly come here like I used to because I have not much to offer to anybody. I’ve just happened to stop by today to check on old friends. I’m sorry to hear what you’ve been through lately, especially your d. I hope she is OK. Like you, I’m living in parallel world with my wife too. We even sleep in a separate bedroom and it has been for a very long long long time.

It gets to the point where I don’t even know what it would be like to sleep next to a human being. How would I react, toss and turn without disturbing anybody else. Sometimes, I wish that would happen, but in my reality right now that ain’t happen. Some nights I even dreamed about being next to someone I love cuddling with each other like spoons until the moon vanishes into the bright sky. But, that was just a dream and the nights continue to be empty and lonely.

LAN (LonelyAtNight).

[ANS]

Hi LAN,

Nice to "see" ya and terrible to "see" ya again.

I think my D is going to be OK. Thanks for your concern.

I know you've been living separately together for a long time.

Wish I had something to say to you, except sorry man.

That's all I can offer. Sorry.

[RMC]

Well. I always told H that leaving was not an option for me and I haven't. He has. Over and over. I'm the strong one -he is the one wondering in the desert.
When leaving is not an option for either of you then there must be some kind of hope.
At least you will be together to try when you have the strength.
You can look at is as stuck together with no options, or staying together with possible options that have not yet been relalized.
I do know that in ONE day everything can change.
You can find out you have cancer.
You can lose a loved on.
Your daughter can attempt suicide.
I also know that it works both ways.
In one day everything can change.
You rejoice in your health.
You watch your two little twin grandaughters being born.
Your daughter comes our of her darkness into the light.
My wish for you Andy is that in ONE day your life will change. In some positive, amazing, unbelieving way.
It happens every day. Why can't it happen to you or to me?
It can. It can. It can. Rachael

[ANS]

Sounds like something I may have posted to you at one time, Racheal.

LOL

P.S.Thanks

[BRIDGET]

Andy:

I'm sorry the road got rougher for you.
You deserve much better -- and brighter -- days.

So sorry about your daughter's suicide attempt,
it undoubtedly affected your wife's outlook.
Perhaps, with help for your daughter, there can
be healing in the family unit?

Have certainly felt your wisdom and help
in my life -- so I'll play you a song tonight
and send good vibes your way, hoping the universe
sends you music to cheer you.

You've been a rock, time to let your friends
shore you up now. Glad you're posting.

And as far as turns for the worse following
a pattern -- nah -- things just cycle at the pace
needed.

In my sitch -- though my H moved out again and our M may
be over -- the worst pain (of being deceived and dissed)
is over. I am doing many things that give me pleasure
and are building my confidence. I am setting my H down
and letting him go free, and I'm very proud of myself
for being able to give him that gift.

I'm hopeful for happiness for us both.

Here's hoping the ache subsides for you today.
Peace to you (in pieces) -- and if not that,
Hersey's kisses.

Bridget who loves ya

[hoping]

Hey...Andy..just wanted to stop in and say i am thinking of you and your family. I have turned to prayer and will include you..not to get all religious, but I do believe that God has a plan for all of us, and I think you are in it.. possibbly through your d crisis will open up a new beginning with your w ...you may not see it right now, but HE is watching over you..ok..no more of that stuff!!

Take care
Sue
Take care

[ANS]

It’s funny how much things stay the same amid so much change.

When I was young, my parents divorced. I no longer had a father. My older brother became schizophrenic. He was gone. My mother died.

I was hurtin’

You've been a rock, time to let your friends shore you up now. Glad you're posting.

At the ripe old age of 15, I decided that I had to be a rock. My younger brother and sister needed me. I had to act as-if I could influence our future. The first thing my brother said to me after mom died was, “What’s going to happen to us?” I had to suck in my own pain to reassure him that I had it all under control (yeah. right.)

My theme song became I am a Rock (Simon and Garfunkle).

I've built walls
A fortress deep and mighty
That none may penetrate
I have no need for friendship
Friendship causes pain
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain.

I am a rock
I am an island

After I finally reconciled with my father, he told me how much he admired us kids: “You guys stood back-to-back against the world.”

One day, I met the woman of my dreams. It wasn’t love at first sight. We became friends. We hung out together and had a lot of laughs. We were pals. Gradually, I came to realize that I wanted more than that. I fell in love.

I was madly in love for over 20 years. So was my W.

But life’s struggles weren’t over. Along with the usual stuff, we had to struggle to raise four kids – including one who had autism – on a single income. We had no family nearby to help us. We stood back-to-back against the world.

Then my job started to involve travel. W was virtually alone to handle it all. And she did it. Alone.

Due to circumstances beyond either of our control, the love of my life gradually fell out of love with me. I wasn’t there for her to support her for a long long time. She spent a lot of nights crying in her pillow. She had to take care of herself and still keep up her onerous responsibilities to her children. She didn’t have any energy left to love me, and my attempts to rekindle things only put pressure on her.

Don't talk of love
Well, I've heard the word before
It's sleeping in my memory
I won't disturb the slumber
Of feelings that have died
If I'd never loved,
I never would have cried

I am a rock
I am an island

So I’m back to sucking in my pain.

I am a rock
I am an island
And the rock feels no pain
And an island never cries

But I do cry.

It was good to share a couple of emails old friend... so I decided to stop here and take a look. Blessings to you Andy.

You and I have sat together and talked in person. We've also typed thousands of characters on the phosphore these last couple of years. It's been an enlightening journey Andy.

I've learned these last couple of years that happiness is what we all strive for. Our purpose on this earth is to give love and receive love. I know I'm capable of doing both.

I've also learned that happiness is a state-of-mind. I've learned I can control my mind by showing compassion and learning to cherish all others. I've learned that happiness doesn't come from external sources, but through the attainment of full enlightenment.

An excellent book that has helped me these past years is called "Eight Steps to Happiness" by Buddhist monk Gelsang Gyatso. You can find it at www.tharpa.com I highly recommend it to anyone. Along with Michele's books of course.

Stay in touch Andy. I'll be in your neck of the woods for a wedding this summer. Let me know if you ever want to chat.

Soup

[RMC]

Ha! Probably so! I think you tried it all with me. I'm so glad I'm past that stage!!! There always seems to be another stage around the corner doesn't there?? Rachael

[ANS]

Thanks, Soup.

I’m so tired. I know you’re into the Buddhist thing. My late father was too, so I’m not totally ignorant about the way. But though I agree to an extent that happiness comes from within, there’s something really basic within me that I can’t change. I know that if I try to explain, a whole lot of people will jump all over me… “Let her go…” “You can’t change her. Change yourself…”

Just can’t hear it right now.

And it ain’t a stage, Rachael

Call it a basic weakness if you like, but it's me.

I have my black belt (karate) grading this weekend. I'm having a lot of concentration problems lately and I'm dog tired. Hope I can slog my way through. Wish me luck.

[lostlove]

Wish me luck.

good luck andy!!!

LL

[Mellers]

Hi Andy!

May the luck of the Irish be with you

And it ain't a weakness, either...

All the best
Mel

[hoping]

Andy...wish there was something to say that would take all your pain away, but we know that won't happen. Take each day as a new beginning..
My thoughts are with you..

Sue

[lisakate32]

andy, good luck. you have always had to be so strong. of course you are tired now. i am thinking of you. lisa

[RMC]

Good luck Andy. I'm glad your still doing things you like to do. You do sound tired. Please take care. Rachael

[KentS]

Hi Andy,
I hope all is improving with respect to your D's cry for help. With you there, I'm sure it will.

Living paralell lives. I hear what you and LAN are saying. I understand as I've experienced some short periods of this myself. Don't automatically presume that your WAW's issues are about you. Really!

There is so much more to being happy than our R's with our S. Don't get me wrong. It's important. Just not enough so to ruin your life over.

Nothing will change until you choose change for yourself. No, I'm not talking about leavin. That's an option, but I'm really talkin about changing your life to revolve around those that wish to be with you and those issues you have some degree of control over. Primarily, your kids, your faith and your personal goals for yourself.

I know how it can suck when your S goes off the deep end or decides that you are not good enough. Both you guys have been here long enough to know ya gotta stop letting their choices pull you down.

Summer 2003 is brand new. What can we do that would be different this year.

Cheer up guys. It could be much worse.

K

[RMC]

Andy- I need you help! SOmeone knows this website now that could tell my nusband. I need to change my username-I tried but it would not let me. DO you know how to do that. How would I change my password without eeryone not knowing who I am? I don't need certain paole reading my posts if you know what I mean! Can you help??? Rachael

[ANS]

Wow! Thanks for stopping by everyone.

LL, Mel, Sue, Lisa, Rachael, Kent. Thank you all.

Mel, I have some Irish blood in me. Maybe it'll help me out.

Racheal and Kent,

Yes, I still do things I like to do.

Kent,

I know that my W's issues aren't all about me. Of course, I've made my share of mistakes, and they haven't helped matters, but I also know that I'm a great guy, a great H, and if W thinks she can do better, she's sorrily mistaken. But I don’t think she’s under that impression. She’s told me that she knows I’m a good H, etc.

I knew someone would say that I gotta change myself, and if anyone would insist it would be you, Kent. It’s what you’ve been telling me all along. And ultimately, you may be right. But there’s something basic in me that I have no desire to change. It’s hard to explain, but if you accept that it’s my choice to change it or not, my choice is not to change. In a sense, my choice not to change this particular je ne sais quoi makes me miserable, but I’m not being a martyr. I’m just not allowing circumstances to force me to become someone I’m not. Make sense?

I also take a slightly different look at “their choices.” My W’s sit is not of her choosing. I suppose that the way she’s dealing with things are her choice, but her choices are based on limited options. Things change. We don’t know what her options will be in the future, nor do we know what my options will be.

Leavin’ is an option, but right now it isn’t a palatable one for either of us. Maybe some day it will come to that, but if it ever does, both of us will have to think carefully about the consequences. I watched Dr. Phil yesterday. I don’t always agree with him, but sometimes, he nails it. This is what he had to say about D:

People often ask Dr. Phil, "How do I know if I'm ready to get a divorce?"

The number one thing that you have to know is this: The time to get a divorce is when you can walk out the door with no anger, no resentment and no bitterness.

Now you're probably saying, "Wait a minute, isn't that why you get a divorce?" No. If you've still got anger, resentment and bitterness, you've still got unfinished business. You should be able to walk out the door saying, "I've done everything I can do to resolve this situation. I cannot do it. I accept that. I am moving on with my life." If you can't do that, you've got too much unfinished emotional business

[Jamesjohn]

je ne sais quoi

I just love it when you speak French, you big dawg!

So, my friend, whatcha been doing for fun for yourself lately?!

Do Kent and I need to come pick you up to go fishing?!

I'm sorry to hear about what's been going on with your family lately. Been there, and done that, with my step-D, and I know how fun that it's not. My thoughts are with you on this, buddy.

[ANS]

Thanks JJ, vieux chien

Sorry, I don’t know how to spell chien with a “w”

What have I been doing for myself lately? Do you mean apart from fretting over my D and my M, and starting another whiney thread?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm…

Well, I’ve been working like a dog. Long hours frustrating problems. When you factor in the other krap, I frankly haven’t had much energy for myself.

But whatever energy I’ve managed to muster has gone into my karate. As I mentioned, I’m grading for my black belt tomorrow, and it’s gonna be a gruelling 5 hours. I’m not sure if my biggest challenge is going to be the difficulties I’ve had concentrating lately, or an old hip injury that’s rearing it’s ugly head. But my concentration has been getting better this week, and they make allowances for injuries (and age), so I’m feeling pretty optimistic.

I’ve been riding my motorcycle a little, and am looking forward to doing more of that.

Last night, D#2 had a school concert (she’s a drummer). It was reassuring to see her doing something for herself and I quite enjoyed the concert.

And of course, this morning I had yet another opportunity to engage in my favourite activity; cleaning up after S#2 wet his bed.

I haven’t been fishing in an awful long time. Right now, I think it would be too quiet. Don’t need time alone to get my head racing, y’know?

But I’ll probably do some later in the summer.

[KAW]

I've learned these last couple of years that happiness is what we all strive for. Our purpose on this earth is to give love and receive love. I know I'm capable of doing both.

I've also learned that happiness is a state-of-mind. I've learned I can control my mind by showing compassion and learning to cherish all others. I've learned that happiness doesn't come from external sources, but through the attainment of full enlightenment.

I'm a bit of a late bloomer to this, but I believe our purpose is to make the most of the R we have with the other people we touch throughout our lives that includes the people we don't choose to be with (like co-workers, the clerk behind the counter, etc..) and the ones we do chose to be with and how we choose to touch their lives is what brings us happiness.

Andy, while I don't much in the way of words to offer that sounds any different than thoses expressed here already, I do wish the very best for you and your family. Best of luck not only this weekend, but in getting what you want from life.

'til later,
KAW

[RMC]

Andy-It will not let me change my user name no matter what.
Even if I open a new post it still ocmes uner the same username which shows uner "poster" My H would recognize my name. I mistakingly put that in there thinking they needed it but not knowing it would show up on every post!
When you try to to change your user name you have to enter your email address and it says they already have a user name for that email address!
Surley there is a way. I hit "contact us" and asked them how to doit but they have not replied yet.
I don't know if my SIL would tell my H about this,but I don't wan tto take that chance.
Any other ideas??

[KentS]

Gee Andy!

I must not be very good at getting my point across anymore. Must be spending too much time with my goldfish.


***********************************************************
I knew someone would say that I gotta change myself, and if anyone would insist it would be you, Kent. It’s what you’ve been telling me all along. And ultimately, you may be right. But there’s something basic in me that I have no desire to change. It’s hard to explain, but if you accept that it’s my choice to change it or not, my choice is not to change. In a sense, my choice not to change this particular je ne sais quoi makes me miserable, but I’m not being a martyr. I’m just not allowing circumstances to force me to become someone I’m not. Make sense?
***********************************************************
I'm not really trying to tell you to change yourself as much as I suggest to change the situation for your benefit. Sounds selfish don't it.

We have spent way too much time obsessing about the "what was" and "what coulda been". We forget to live for today and we fail to enjoy the moment. My W continues to struggle with her own journey. That becomes evident from time to time. Like you, I have chosen my own path and pretty much know who I am. I try to focus on making my own path a more pleasant experience, for me and for those around me. What's great about this kinda attitude is that you begin to realize how much you can affect indirectly. Eventually, you stop worrying about the things you can't affect (like W).

Try to find a little peaceful spot where you can stop thinking so hard. Sounds like you need a break.

K

[serenity sarah]

Andy,
I'm glad you've decided to start a thread. I'm glad you feel the BB is a place of safety, friendship and most of all a place to work out a lifelong plan... DBing, my friend.

One thing we have both agreed upon is that to DB is to do what works and to not do what doesn't. First let me get selfish and talk about what cyclical behaviors DO NOT work for me: the placing the situation in a box: the MLC box, putting a little ribbon around it and focusing on my H's problems, our M, the past, and looking at it with the MLC-tinted glasses on it. Now, allow me the courtesy to point out, IMHO, your cyclical behaviour: philosophisizing, understanding your W. I want you to break the pattern Andy and think about you. I want you to obsess about you. You have developed an amazing amount of strength in accepting the bad that happens in our lives. Life's a bowl of pits, right? I want you to let yourself smile. I want a report of the moment you smile. When you're walking down the street and you see a guy do something, like step on bubble gum on his way to the prom and crack up. Or that you look in the mirror and there's the faintest glimmer in your eye. Andy, you have so much to offer yourself.

Maybe your W would like it if you made yourself happy for a change and then she couldn't resist hanging onto your coat for a ride.

Then I want you to give me an assignment. You do not live in the gutter my friend, or on an island.

Andy, let your W fall in love with you again in her own timeframe. Look at your situation that you are one of the lucky ones. You have TIME on your hands. How can anyone love you if you don't love yourself. Look at the parts of you that you haven't looked at yet.

You do have another place to go.

SS

Excellent post Sarah ! Listen to her Andy !

[RMC]

Ditto Andy. DItto, ditto, ditto!

[ANS]

Thanks everyone.

I hear ya Kent. It’s probably me who isn’t getting my point across.

I'm not really trying to tell you to change yourself as much as I suggest to change the situation for your benefit. Sounds selfish don't it.

Yeah. It sounds selfish. But that’s what it’s all about, isn’t it? I doubt anyone has posted their dissatisfaction with what they were putting into their R. Every thread on this board is about what the poster is missing from their R. Even the “I’ve become strong” posts are a reaction. Why have you become strong? What necessitated the change?

You weren’t getting what you want. Something is missing, and you find ways to compensate.

It may not sound like it, but when the moment is good, I do enjoy it. I’ll admit that sometimes, thoughts of “what was” and “what could have been” spoil it for me. I’ll even admit to obsession. My obsession isn’t constant like it was when I first started posting. But it happens.

Two or three years ago, I started to try to affect things both directly, and later indirectly. I had my ups and downs, but over the long term, things seemed to be going forward.

Things aren’t good, Kent. My latest bout of obsession isn’t about “what was” or “what could have been.” It’s about the future. I’m struggling to figure out what to do if things never change. It’s a possibility I’ve never really contemplated before, but I feel I have to now.

In other words, I’m contemplating ending my marriage.

Try to find a little peaceful spot where you can stop thinking so hard. Sounds like you need a break.

You’re right. There’s too much krap going on, and I think it’s time to give myself a break. I’m gonna hafta return to my contemplations, but there’s just too much happening for me to think clearly, so I do have to spend more time in that peaceful spot. My plans for the future are gonna hafta wait.

Sarah,

You’re right too. But there’s a lot more to my sit than meets the eye. I’m not gonna post a detailed analysis, but I’ve been trying for an awful long time. And by trying, I’m including “not trying” because sometimes the very fact that you’re trying doesn’t work.

I do love myself, Sarah. I’m very proud of the adversity I’ve overcome, and as far as I’m concerned, there isn’t a better man who walked the earth than me. If I didn’t believe that, I’d have to agree with my W that our R is all wrong. She deserves no less than the best.

Here’s my “smile report”

Even in the darkest hours of my depression, I enjoyed my karate. It was often my only lifeline to the “real” world. But as the date of my black belt grading approached, life was getting difficult. Between my loneliness, my DD’s sit, work, … You know the story. I was missing a lot of classes, and my concentration was shot. Factor in an old leg injury, and things weren’t looking very good.

The black belt grading is a gruelling 5 hours that starts with an hour of vigorous exercise. Before it started, I knew that things would go in one of two directions. Either the “warm-up” would wreck my leg, and the exhaustion would further cloud my concentration, or the warm-up would actually warm up my leg and tire me to the point where my mind would be clear to do what I had to do.

The second situation was what happened.

During the grading, there are a whole slew of black belts who act kinda like proctors. Since my S#1 is a black belt, he attended. From time to time, my son’s voice could be heard from behind me. “You’re doing great dad.”

I smiled.

At one point, I heard a strange voice from behind. “Nice back stance.” It threw me to get a compliment in the middle of a technique, so I flubbed the next three moves. All I could do was laugh inside and pick it up as soon as I could.

At the 4 ½ hour mark, I realized that I hadn’t been kicked out of the grading. I had made it.

I smiled.

The next day there was another two hours. Mostly a show for our folks, and the presentation of belts. As I was called up to perform, my mind went blank. I couldn’t remember a thing. But when they announced the technique to be performed, it flooded back into my memory.

I put on a good show for my W and girls.

My leg hurt. I grimaced.

But I also smiled.

When my name was called out, and I received my belt from the master-sensei, you couldn’t wipe the smile off my face.

[rayanne]

Congratulations ANS! Good job!

rayanne

[Mellers]

Well done, Mr. Black Belt!!!

I liked the smile report, too

All the best
Mel

[KAW]

Great smile report!!

Right back at cha!

'til later,
KAW

[serenity sarah]

I do love myself, Sarah. I’m very proud of the adversity I’ve overcome, and as far as I’m concerned, there isn’t a better man who walked the earth than me. If I didn’t believe that, I’d have to agree with my W that our R is all wrong. She deserves no less than the best.

I love that Andy, it really strikes a chord. Now I know you'll be ok.
SS

[hoping]

A quick hi..and great job..well deserved. You are stronger than you think..keep the smiles going..they are contagious.


Sue

Well done on the black belt Andy. Congratulations !

doubt anyone has posted their dissatisfaction with what they were putting into their R. Every thread on this board is about what the poster is missing from their R

Not sure I totally understand the difference Andy? Could you please elaborate?

I enjoyed your smile report. Given that your karate classes have taught you to control your mind, are you able to focus your mind on cherishing and compassion?

Soup ...side-bar question for KAW. What does "most" mean? As in make the most with people?

[ANS]

Thanks Soup.

What I meant by my comment was that an R is give and take. People come to this BB; not because their SO won’t take anymore, it’s because their SO doesn’t want to put anything into the R.

I suppose that sometimes the SO won’t take anymore either. They won’t give us the satisfaction of taking what we have to offer.

Sharing is a two way street.

My karate taught me to concentrate whilst I’m doing it, but though there’s a certain philosophy behind it all, it doesn’t (at least in my case) calm a troubled mind except to distract it from its troubles during the actual practice.

Having said that, once I’ve calmed down, it’s easier to stay calm, and the physical aspect tires me so I often sleep better.

Riding my bike (motorcycle) helps too, though it’s too dangerous to ride if you’re not already able to concentrate.

[KAW]

I'm a bit of a late bloomer to this, but I believe our purpose is to make the most of the R we have with the other people we touch throughout our lives that includes the people we don't choose to be with (like co-workers, the clerk behind the counter, etc..) and the ones we do chose to be with and how we choose to touch their lives is what brings us happiness.

...side-bar question for KAW. What does "most" mean? As in make the most with people?

Hi Soup,
Simply put ... our purpose in regards to "the meaning of life" stuff is in the way we interact with other people and touch their lives. To make the most of this is to strive to make every interaction a positive experience for all involved.

'til later,
KAW

[KentS]

Cool Andy! Way to go!

Me, I'm packin-up my boys and cruising to South Carolina for 10 days away from everything. Gonna play in the ocean. Just me and my boys.

The "Zen" motorcycle master! Meditating while riding. I love it Andy !

They won’t give us the satisfaction of taking what we have to offer.

Doesn't that imply that we're looking for, expecting some sort of acknowledgement for what we are offering to the relationship? If I've understood you correctly, why do you think that's (acknowledgement) even necessary?

Soup

Hi Soup,
Simply put ... our purpose in regards to "the meaning of life" stuff is in the way we interact with other people and touch their lives. To make the most of this is to strive to make every interaction a positive experience for all involved.

Without tying up Andy's thread KAW, I wasn't refering to "the meaning of life". I was talking about "our purpose while on this earth". I see the two as being slightly different.

So does "positivie experience" cover "give love and receive love"?

Soup

[ANS]

Sounds great Kent

The "Zen" motorcycle master! Meditating while riding. I love it Andy !

But like I said, it can be dangerous. I had bruises to prove it.

Doesn't that imply that we're looking for, expecting some sort of acknowledgement for what we are offering to the relationship? If I've understood you correctly, why do you think that's (acknowledgement) even necessary?

Because we’re social creatures, and it makes us feel good. I’m not talking about the internal kind of good that I mentioned to Sarah. I love myself. But if my R with my W is only a business relationship, then it’s no relationship at all.

You’ve seen me very unhappy, Soup. Very unhappy. Have you ever heard me say I’m not worthy?

Can't say that I have Andy.

You're right. We are social creatues and it does make us feel could when we look for acknowledgement. And yes, we're programmed (by historical habit) from birth to behave this way. But what has it gotten us. Most people in this world seek happiness from external sources never to find it.

Giving and taking. How can we learn to love with no one to love? How can we practise giving with no one to give to, or patience with no one to irritate us?

Perhaps if you gave up the need for acknowledgement and simply focused on giving things would change. Your wife seems to be an ideal candidate (many delusions and unhappiness) for you to practise with.

Soup ... preparing a potato salad for dinner guests.

[KAW]

Without tying up Andy's thread KAW, I wasn't refering to "the meaning of life". I was talking about "our purpose while on this earth". I see the two as being slightly different.

... and I don't intend to hijack Andy's thread any more as well so I'll sum up with ... Sorry, for mudding up the waters with my loose use of phrases. I wasn't talking about "meaning of life" on a grand scale but on a personal one - one's lifetime, which I see the same as being our purpose here. As Andy says, we are social creatures, so what other way is there to sum up our purpose / worth than how we choose to interact with others?

So does "positivie experience" cover "give love and receive love"?

It certainly does Ollie!

'til later,
KAW

[ANS]

You're right. We are social creatues and it does make us feel could when we look for acknowledgement. And yes, we're programmed (by historical habit) from birth to behave this way. But what has it gotten us. Most people in this world seek happiness from external sources never to find it.

Perhaps, Soup. But without getting too philosophical, is life a destination? You ask where it’s gotten us. I think you’ve kinda answered your own question (albeit with another question)

Giving and taking. How can we learn to love with no one to love? How can we practise giving with no one to give to, or patience with no one to irritate us?

I know I’m not really answering your question, but how do we learn to accept love with no one to give it to us? Or accept gifts with no one to give it to us? Or grace with no one to forgive us?

My W has, at one time or another taught me all of these things.

And how do we experience our uniqueness without it being reflected back at us by someone who knows us intimately?

It may be true that we’re “programmed” to certain feelings. The debate still rages amongst behavioralists and geneticists. I really don’t much care how I got the way I am. To be honest, I believe there’s a bit of both.

I loved being loved and loving in return. It lasted for over 20 years, and that symbiosis may be coming to an end. I have to accept that, but it takes time to get over, and I don’t think I’ll ever embrace it.

‘Course, I’ve been wrong before.

Don’t worry about hijacking my thread, KAW. I’m not using it much anyway

[hoping]

Hi..Andy..hope you are hanging in there and finding some kind of peace in your life. How is your daughter doing? I have included you in my long list of prayers...good things come to those who wait..and wait!!!!

Stay strong

Sue

[ANS]

Thanks Sue.

My daughter seems to be doing OK. She still sleeps on the couch. I'm not quite sure why, but it's definately a sign that everything isn't OK yet. On the other hand, I haven't seen her acting glum in quite awhile, so there are positive signs too.

As for me personally, I'm just hangin' in. I don't have my underwear all in a knot about things. At least not most of the time.

Maybe I'd characterize it as a sad kind of peace.

Guess I'm still working on accepting my fate. I can't just wait..and wait. No use in pining my life away. But I can't bring myself to move on either.

There's "what you want", there's "what should be", there's "what was" and there's "what is."

They aren't always the same thing. Maybe I've lived a charmed life, and want "what was" back. I know that's unrealistic but I still have a hard time reconciling these things.

But without getting too philosophical, is life a destination? You ask where it’s gotten us. I think you’ve kinda answered your own question (albeit with another question)

Well, since I believe that our mind is reincarnated after life... I also have learned that happiness is a state of mind that we can control. I also believe that our happiness does not come from external sources.

I know I’m not really answering your question, but how do we learn to accept love with no one to give it to us? Or accept gifts with no one to give it to us? Or grace with no one to forgive us?

What is love Andy? Not sure I understand what your point is to the above. Help me out here?

I loved being loved and loving in return.

Again, how does one tell if they are being loved? Is it the same as a mother or father loving a child? How does one recognize love?

[ANS]

What is love?

Woah, Soup. You’re getting way over my head here. To me, it’s not something that can be described with words.

Is there only one kind of love? Mother, father, wife, friend, … all the same?

Not to my mind. Like I said, I can’t analyze it, take it apart, dissect it, parse it. But it’s all different. Maybe there’s as many kinds of love as there are people in your life. I really don’t know.

How does one recognize love?

You feel it. Call it the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you’re near someone you love and/or who loves you. It’s an intellectual exercise beyond my capabilities to describe.

D#1 won an award as the “Student of the Year” for her graduating class. I was proud. I was happy for her. And as she received the award, I felt a surge of fatherly love.

Doesn’t mean I don’t love her at other times, but sometimes it just floods over you.

[hoping]

ANDY..Glad your underwear is not in knots all the time..what is love..that is hard to describe...

hang in there
Sue

You've made my point Andy!

I don't there is such a thing as romantic love. If we can't describe it how can label it love?

I think "happiness" is what it's all about. I don't think happiness comes from external sources. It comes from within.

When we experience sufferings from a failed relationship we should generate the wish to escape from that relationship. I'm not suggesting that we leave it in the sense that we might think, but rather leave that R behind in our mind. Rather we should focus on enlightenment since that leads to happiness. And when our spouses see our happiness they will want some of the same.

Soup

[ANS]

There are lots of things in this universe that I can’t explain, Soup.

There are probably dozens of them

You’re probably right that we’re talking about happiness. I was never happier than when I was in the arms of my loving W.

Does that mean I can’t be happy when I’m not? Well, you’re right. If I was only happy under those circumstances then I haven’t tapped my internal resources.

In the long term, one of two things will have to happen for me to be happy. Either my W will learn to love me again, or I will have to learn to stop loving her.

In this context, I’m not talking about fraternal love. I’m talking about the intangible “romantic” love.

Sorry. For me, it’s real.

[serenity sarah]

Hey Andy,
I do think about you from time to time, from a lot of time to a lot of time.

Interesting question: what is love? Has a unique answer for each and every one of us, me thinks. IMHO. For me, sometimes it's infatuation, sometimes it's sex, but most of the the time it's probably hindsight.. why didn't I take it when it was offered? or that Romeo/Juliet thing... can't have it. You realize however, this is so anti-DBing. I'll let you go there for a bit, and myself as well, but we are taught here that it's a CHOICE, a decision, and that's when I think the love is fed and grows. It is a living thing. It requires food and water and smiles and fog. My 2 cents.

Also, welcome to limbo land. What you gonna do about it? You can 1)wait, and wait and wait and wait and watch your life go by 2)give up and D 3)whatever, I don't know. The point I'm trying to make here is we do have a choice too. You and I have chosen to wait. So live with it. We won't wait forever, I guarantee you that. So when's the breaking point? Mine is getting pretty close. All I have left is my faith now that I'm ok, I will be ok and that things ALWAYS work out.

SS

In the long term, one of two things will have to happen for me to be happy. Either my W will learn to love me again, or I will have to learn to stop loving her

Wow, that implies you still have delusions of attachment Andy. But they're good goals nontheless my friend.

So, in the context of DBing, what things do you think you need to do to achieve either of the above choices? And what's keeping you from doing them?

Soup

[ANS]

delusion

noun false belief or hope. delusive adjective. delusory adjective.

dream, fantasy, hallucination, illusion, mirage, misconception, mistake, self-deception.

Are you implying that you have a better grasp of reality than I do Soup?

All I know is that in “my world”, I was happy when my W loved me and I loved her. Life was no bed of roses before I met her, and she didn’t transform it into a bed of roses, but it was good.

One could argue that the happiness I derived from her love wasn’t real because it came from “external sources.” I simply don’t care where it came from. It was there, and that’s good enough for me.

OK. So now I don’t have that anymore. I have the choice of waiting on the eventuality that I get it back, or stopping myself from wanting it.

To answer your questions:

So, in the context of DBing, what things do you think you need to do to achieve either of the above choices?

Nothing.

And what's keeping you from doing them?

Nothing.

[lostlove]

One could argue that the happiness I derived from her love wasn’t real because it came from “external sources.” I simply don’t care where it came from. It was there, and that’s good enough for me.

with the exception of finding another to love you and for you to love...what other outside sources can you find to make you happy??

yes, I'd love to feel loved (on a regular basis and not just when it's convenient) by h and to feel free to love him...but while I wait for that to happen with regularity I need to keep me happy myself...some may say it's just empty busy stuff...well then if it's empty stuff then it's the wrong stuff...so what am I doing?? painting rooms...learning to be an emt, becoming a part of a community larger than that one residing in my home...makes me feel good about me...makes me feel alive...then I need h less and less and it is more a choice to spend time with him.

your post seems rather down, I know it's hard to find positive when you are down, maybe take a few min to list some positives even if they are not in relation to w might bring you some needed peace.

LL

Hi Andy,

Everyone wants to be happy (loved) and no one wants to suffer, but very few people understand the real causes of happiness and suffering.

We tend to look for happiness outside ourself, thinking that if we had the right house, the right car, the right job, and the right partner we would be truly happy. We spend almost all our time adjusting the external world, trying to make it conform to our wishes. All our life we have tried to surround ourself with people and things that make us feel comfortable, secure, or stimulated, yet still we have not found pure and lasting happiness.

Even when we succeed in fulfilling our desires, it is not long before our desires change and we want something else. We may find the houe of our dreams, but a few months later we feel that we need a bigger kitchen, an extra bedroom, or a larger garden, and we think of moving.

Or perhaps we meet the "perfect" partner, fall in love, and move in together. At the beginning our partner seems to the most wonderful person in the world, but before long we begin to see faults in him or her. We discover that we are no longer in love, and soon we are looking for someone else to fulfill our desires.

Throughout history human beings have sought to improve their external conditions, yet despite all our efforts we are no happier. It is true that from the point of view of material development many countries are making progress. Technology is becoming more and more sophisticated, and worldly knowledge has increased dramatically. We know so many things we did not know before and can do things we never even dreamt of. Superficially, it looks as if our world is improving, but if we look a little more deeply we see that there are now many problems that never existed before. Terrifying weapons have been invented, our environment is being poisoned, and new diseases are appearing. Even simple pleasures like eating or lying in the sun are becoming more dangerous.

The result of an unbridled pursuit of happiness from external sources is that our planet is being destroyed and our lives are becoming more complicated and dissatisfying.

I believe it is time we sought happiness from a different source. Happiness is a state of mind, so the real source of happiness must lie within our mind, not in external conditions.

If our mind is pure and peaceful we shall be happy, regardless of our external circumstances, but if it is impure and unpeaceful we can never be truly happy, no matter how hard we try to change our external conditions. We could change our partner countless times, but until we change our restless, discontented mind we shall never find true happiness (love).

If we have to walk across rough and thorny ground, one way of protecting our feet is to cover the whole ground with leather, but it's just not very practical. We can achieve the same result in a much simpler way... by covering our feet with leather. Similarly, if we wish to protect ourself from suffering we can either try to change the whole world to make it conform to our wishes, or we can change our mind. Until now we have been trying to change the world, but this clearly has not worked. So controlling our mind seems like an alternative.

The first step towards controlling our mind is to identify which states of mind product happiness and which produce suffering.

In Buddism, states of mind that are conducive to peace and happiness are called "virtuous minds", whereas those that disturb our peace and cause suffering are called "delusions". I've learned these last couple of years that my mom had one of the most virtuous mids I've ever come across. I'm convinced that she left this world a happy person. She was forever cherishing all others rather than always thinking about herself.

We have many different types of delusion, such as desirous attachment, anger, jealousy, pride, miserliness and ignorance. These are also known as inner enemies because they are continually destroying our happiness from within. Their only function is to cause harm.

Delusions are distored ways of looking at ourself, other people, and the world around us. The way a deluded mind views these phenomena does not accord with reality. The deluded mind of hatred, for example, views another person as instrinsically bad, but there is no such thing as an intrinsically bad person.

Desirous attachment, on the other hand, sees its object of desire as instrinsically good and as a true source of happiness. If we have a strong craving to eat chocolate, chocolate appears to us to be an instrinsically desirable object. However, once we have eaten too much of it and start to feel sick, it no longer seems so desirabel and may even appear repulsive. This shows that in itself chocolate is neither desirable nor repulsive. It is the mind of attachement that projects onto it all kinds of desirable qualities and then relates to it as if it really did possess those qualities.

All delusions work like this Andy. When our mind is under the influence of delusions we are out of touch with reality and are, in a sense hallucinating. Since our mind is under the influence of at least subtle forms of delusion all the time, it is not surprising that our lives are so often filled with frustration. It is as if we are continually chasing mirrages, only to be disappointed when they do not give us the satisfaction for which we had hoped.

I'll stop here just in case you have questions.

Soup

[lostlove]

happy birthday to you...happy birthday to you...

LL