Hello friends. My H and I have decided to try to make our marriage work after a one-year separation.
After the first 6-7 months of separation, I "dropped the rope" and had started D movement. My L was just about to send H a letter when H sent me an email with questions about the possibility of him being my H again.
I stopped all D activity with mt L and after some R conversations with H, he decided he wanted to come home.
What I'm finding is our interactions seem a little stiff, guarded, and just generally uneasy. How do we get through this? I've suggested to H that it might be a good idea to have a weekly one-hour, or so, consultation with each other to express anything we might have on our minds about our M. He said he thought it would be a good idea.
Any suggestions from anyone on more ways to get a feeling of closeness again?
Thanks for any input.
SS, have you read the book, "After the Affair?" I haven't but thought I'd pick up a copy. I don't remember if your H did anything in line with an actual affair, but I'm thinking it might still be appropriate because it all boils down to betrayal of the R, right? In your case, you probably feel like his kids were "the other woman." I know I do. At minimum, it figure it has to have something in it about healing the R and rebuilding intimacy in the worst-case scenario, so even a few nuggets in it might be helpful.
Any btw, this is a "what do you think," as opposed to advice, because what the heck do I know.
CV, I think that's a great idea. You are right; his daughter seems almost like a mistress! I did feel that a part of him leaving was to show her that she was more important to him than I was.
I'll go on amazon and get it. I got myself a new kindle fire foe Xmas and I get a free book out of the lending library this month so I'll try there first. Thank you so much for the suggestion. I need all the help I can get!
I'll be curious to hear from you later which is more difficult -- what you went through the last year or what you're going through now in piecing.
i can tell you that so far, the first 6-7 months of what i went through last year was so much more difficult than what i'm doing now. however, it became much easier the last half of our separation and i was very happy, hence, the difficulty now. i was getting very used to living on my own, doing whatever i wanted, whenever i wanted, and with whomever i wanted. i'm giving that up a little now...
i'll let you know my progress with the current sitch.
SS!!!!!!! I saw your post in newcomers and I wanted to tell you how happy I am for you! I am really inspired by you and look forward to following you on the next part of your journey.
Happy New Year SS :-) :-)
SS, I didn't realize you had a new thread. First of all, congrats! Second, I read a book about coming back together after a separation. I wish I had read it before my H moved back into the house after his A was over. We made a lot of mistakes and he ended up wanting a D and moving out again. So read this book:
Getting Back Together: How To Reconcile With Your Partner - And Make It Last by Bettie B. Youngs.
The most important thing is to figure out if the physical move back together makes sense now. You say you got used to being on your own and interactions are a bit stiff. Maybe something gradual would be better--the book talks about this.
Best of luck! (((((()))))
SS, keep posting here like a journal. Ask questions. Others who have been or are piecing should come along soon enough to support you.
Remember, piecing is different. What you did initially is to detach and move forward, now... you must re-attach. A huge part of that is to fix what ever trust issues were broken in the first place.
Again, what were his reasons for leaving? Think back on that. I get that type of conversation with him might scare you (and him), yet these things did not just go away.
Did you fix the things you know were his original reasons for leaving, that were in fact valid?
What about his issues? While you work on your things, does he know what things were / are bothering you that he could work on?
thanks, tori. i will get that book. i appreciate you telling me about it.
KD, H and i have agreed to try to discuss our relationship on an ongoing basis, once a week. we did this yesterday. we agreed we would discuss what was going on with each of us as far as possible resentments, appreciations, and things we might need from the other.
i have tried to be more vulnerable with him because he previously (and maybe even now) thinks i am too protective of myself and "strong willed". i'm trying to accept that i'm not always right and that when i make a mistake, to appologize for it instead of trying to ignore it and not speak about it or defend myself.
that's what i need from him, too. he has a hard time apologizing. i think he needs to be right, a lot. i need him to apologize so i can let it go. an apology makes things so much easier for both people.
one of the things that came up yesterday, was any financial assistance to his adult kids (23,25,& 27). we have been subsidizing his D23's rent to the tune of $470/mo. for about 17 months. she just graduated from college in december and now i want it to stop. it will be the first time since we were married that we won't be giving money to his kids (child support ended five years ago).
it's hard for him to stop but it's a line in the sand i will not waiver on. i have waited so long to have a marriage that is only about us. i have a son, too. he's 40. he has a family and we offer no financial assistance to him. we have a living trust that dictates that any financial "gifts" to one side be matched with an equal amount to the other. until now, i have not asked for this to be enforced. now i'm pretty much settled on it being the way we handle these things, going forward.
i think i've been very generous. with what we've given his adult kids over the past five years (4 1/2 years they lived with us and we supported them while they were in school), we could have taken two very nice vacations.
i don't see how to make him see that i should have to give financial assistance to his kids anymore. he likes to bring up all kinds of hypothetical situations and pose them to me, things that may never happen but might. i'm not wanting to be pulled into this "trap". i can only say i don't want to give them anymore money and if "we" do, i want it matched with my son. he's opposed to that. why can't he see that i feel the same way? i don't want to give money to someone else's adult kid?
he seems to feel guilty and it's been an ongoing thing in our relationship; "guilty dad syndrome" and it feels like it will never stop.
i just want a marriage, now, where we are the two most important people in our relationship and the rest of our family members have their own lives that we can enjoy.
any suggestions? it's starting to feel hopeless again...
i just thought of another thing i worked on this weekend that H had complained about before. he used to say i didn't want to do things with him. part of that is that he's an extrovert and seems to need "constant" stimulation, and i'm and introvert and appreciate more quiet time and reflection.
this weekend, he asked me to go a couple of places with him (walk on the beach and another walk the next day). i was busy ordering something on line that he needed for a project the first time. he texted me a picture of the beach and i decided to walk over. it was mostly out of guilt that i went but after i got there, i really enjoyed the view and our time together.
then, yesterday, in the afternoon, he asked if i wanted to go for a walk and i said yes. we walked a couple of miles, around the neighborhood, and really had a nice time talking and looking at different things.
so...i guess that's progress?
Hi,
I am not in piecing yet, but I think that it is progress. Actions, consistent actions, are more important, or at least "speak" louder, than words.
IMO, the issue with his daughter and support, maybe let that one be for a while, until you get more traction in the reconciliation? It does seem to be a biggie for both of you, do you think there is enough foundation built to take on a "biggie" right now?
Just my 2.5 cents...
T^2
Agree with T2.
Also, my H and I also did the weekly talk about our issues---this made everything worse. Give yourselves time. Keep up the 180's, like going for the walks....
SS, you and I have walked much the same road. Regarding the financial sitch, I'm not sure it's a good thing to put it off. I KNOW it's a big issue for you. To put it under the rug only to have it crop up again later might be worse than getting it out now. If it boils down to the fact that he can't get over his "guilty dad syndrome," is this a deal-breaker for you?
Alternatively, can you keep separate finances? You've been separated for some time, was that part of it? That was a big help in our sitch. When it was H's money and he couldn't afford it, his perspective changed completely. Ironically, then I was able to be the supportive and encouraging W, telling him to go ahead and give them his money if he wanted to, instead of coming across as the cheap, stingy, money-monger scapegoat.
LOL, CV! it's so funny to think that my H could even think of me as stingy! i've been so generous with his kids, well beyond anything he could expect from most stepmothers, i think. i know you're not saying that but it made me laugh.
tori and t2, thank you for looking in. i respect that it might seem that i'm sabotaging the reconciliation but this is way too important an issue for me to let it go any farther. i have not spoken to his daughter for over a year. i texted her and emailed her three times with a request to meet for lunch to put our differences aside because our history together meant so much to me. she never replied. i get no birthday wish, let alone a card, no mother's day card or call, nothing. she gets $100 for her birthday and another $100 for graduation from my H and i and probably about $300 for xmas from us. i get no thanks. nothing.
this is not a person i want to continue to support. she's an adult now. she's 23. she just graduated from college. she has a boyfriend who sleeps over at our townhouse we gave her to live in for $130/mo. i am 63 years old now. i do not have time for this type of coddling of an adult woman any longer.
she is taking money out of my pocket and i want to spend our money on us now, not her or her brothers. i don't support my son. my son is a Ph.D. so i think my H thinks he doesn't need any financial support but to me, that's not the issue.
all of our money has always been together. when we got married, H had very little. i had a home, retirement funds, pension, savings, etc. now i'm retired and my income is really only social securtity. i have retirement accounts but have not drawn from them as H has a good job and we live off his earnings and my SS check. we've never had separate accounts and to do so, we'd have to divorce.
i met H for dinner tonight and just came out and told him that i was afraid he was stonewalling me on an answer about his D and the rent she would pay and it was distressing to me.
low and behold, he advised me that he had spoken to her and told her that the rent was now $600/mo. and said that she will be putting the balance into our account! so...maybe there's hope?
i do know that i've been a very big help to him with all kinds of personal chores and phone calls to make our rental properties function. so, maybe he's seeing the value of me over her? it's sad to feel that way but i do.
the reason i need this to be resolved now is that it's a big deal breaker for me and if it was to continue, nothing else he had to offer me would make up for it. it would mean that he wanted me to continue to sacrifice for his adult daughter after years of waiting for those sacrifices to end. it would mean that he placed her comfort above mine. it would mean that i would continue to suffer financially to a grown woman who 2 years ago had the nerve to tell me that "what's his is mine" when speaking of all our marital property.
no, i'm willing to lose him for that.
thank you all for your willingness to help me.
SS, it sounds like you're working on communication and that communication has been a big stumbling block in the past. I think that's great, but just want to warn that effective communication is not something the two of you can develop on your own in my opinion. I really feel like professional help with this would put you on the path to rebuilding the R much faster. Have you checked into RetroV?
One of the difficulties in moving into piecing is switching gears, before piecing it's not advisable to seek out counseling but once in piecing counseling can be a critical component to getting the R on track.
yes, AS. i'm going to suggest it for the spring when we can travel and couple it with a nice vacation since we don't have one in our town.
i do believe you're right; communication is crucial.
good news for me: i checked our bank account yesterday and H's D23 had deposited the remaining rent balance into our account!
H also told me that her plans are to get a job in her field and pursue a master's degree somewhere (not offered in our city). he also assured me that all he will be giving her in the future is "advice".
i'm so happy that he has chosen this. it means, to me, that we can continue to work on our relationship and try to make a life together. it was a major stumbling block for me and it's out the the way now. i hope it remains so.
thanks for all your input and thoughts. they really help me.
i'm finding that i have a big trust issue with H. i feel like i will always have the BD in the back of my mind and the thought that he will leave again. i'm not really afraid of not being married to him but it just seems like we didn't have a real marriage if he could "bail" on it.
he could do it again?
does anyone else feel that way? it really makes me not feel like being completely vulnerable.
I think the lack of trust is a huge issue in any M, regardless of the actual cause of the mistrust (cheating, lying, BD, etc) I get not being completely vulnerable because of it. I think that's why some M's fail even after the couple R's after an affair, because the offended party just can't trust again. I don't have an answer to this, but I'm constantly looking because I have several areas of mistrust myself, so I'll let you know if I come up with something.
ScaredSilly,
If you are scared about your financial independence, then make yourself financially independent. Separate your finances from H's if that helps. Controlling his parenting choices is not the solution. Nor do I think his financial support of his daughter is the problem.
Rather, you seem to feel that H loves you less than his daughter. You equate financial changes with proving that isn't the case. This is a pretty unhealthy place to be.
First, people love their spouses and children. Getting into the who-loves-who-more-prove-it game is toxic. Quit playing that game.
Identify what you really want:
-- a stable, secure marriage
-- feeling safe and loved
-- assurance of financial security
-- consistent reassurance of H's commitment to M
Figure out both by yourself and by working with your partner how to best achieve those things. Aim toward those positive outcomes. Drop vendettas and anger against SD. She is only 23, still very much a child. A young 23 year old woman fresh out of college is nothing like a 40 year old man with a PhD. Insisting there is no difference is not helpful. H still has more parenting work to do. If you try to squeeze out financial and emotional space for him to do so effectively, you are very directly harming yourself, your H, your M, and the children involved. And, even if you manage to get H to do what you want, it is not going to lead to what you really want, the sorts of things listed above.
On their face, your recent posts suggest a very dysfunctional longstanding family dynamic. Try to treat that dysfunction directly through family therapy rather than manipulating outcomes several steps away from the real problem. What you are doing with the rent issue is setting up a pass/fail test for H that likely seems controlling and manipulative to him. You probably know that already. So, even when he passes the test, it probably does little to reassure you. It sounds like H had little space or opportunity to demonstrate real change or show real concern, support and love for you. Without freedom and space, the opportunities for trust, respect, and love to grow are stifled.
Set yourself, your M, and your H up for success by finding positive ways to bring the things you want in your life.
Thanks, CV and Oldtimer. I appreciate your comments and helpfulness.
Financial trust with H has been damaged in the past. He gave his WX $5K without my knowledge several years ago when we had been married for about three years.
The day before BD, he took $20K out of our joint account and put it in a new account under his name only. I didn't find out about it until nine days later, on Christmas Day last year.
We have given his S25 and D23 over $10K in financial support in the past 17 months. And that was after they had both lived with us for 4 1/2 years with no money being asked of them towards their support.
I'm 63 years old; retired and on SS. When we got married, I knew we would be paying out, in just CS alone, over $160K until the "kids" reached the "age of majority". I expected to stop supporting them to a great extent (not totally) at that time. That was five years ago. It just stopped.
My H is 52 years old and has a very good job and career. Before we got married, he "sweetened the pot" by proposing that I would help him pay child support until I retired and then he would work for 10 more years and support me. We both had the same job and made pretty much the same income. He felt that would make up for the great cash flow out of our marital funds for those years. His idea and proposal, not mine, but I liked it and it seemed fair.
I've been retired three years now. The "cash flow" out just stopped this week. I felt deceived and cheated on many levels. His D23 has over $20,000 in inheritance in her bank account.
Do I want him to "love" me more than his D23? Hell no! I want him to respect me and our marriage. I want him to stop coddling his D23 at my expense. I don't want to support her anymore. It has nothing to do with a vendetta. I couldn't care less about her or any vengeance. I don't interfere in his relationship with her at all. In fact, I encourage it. I just want some "financial security", to feel "safe and loved", and a "stable marriage", as you put it.
How could I possibly have that if he insisted that I continue to support his D23?
And in my situation, how can I "separate" my finances? We have four homes, numerous other possessions...do I ask him to start selling things off? How about the disparity in income now? Do I pay half of everything with my small SS check while he makes 5 times a month what I do?
Your suggestions are great for newly married, second marriages where both people are working and they can foresee the future and the need to protect themselves financially.
Way too late for mine...unless you've thought of something I've not?
As far as a dysfunctional family dynamic, absolutely. Look up "guilty father syndrome" and "emotional incest". That's what I've been dealing with for years.
We had marriage counseling years ago. We had been married for five years and we were having parenting style differences ( I finally refused, after many embarrassing incidents, to go anywhere with his S14 and S16, at the time, if their pants hung down on their butts, I actually had the nerve to have them make their beds in the mornings and brush their teeth, every other weekend, and I wickedly expected them to hang up their clothes and wet towels). We had an argument about his kids and he advised me that I was no longer invited to his mother's house for Christmas. I had lived in our town a little over 6 years. I had no family here. He spent two weeks at his mother's house with his kids. I was left alone for Christmas, new year's, and my birthday.
Our counselor advised my H that our marriage needed to come first and that his children should know that.
On BD, I suggested MC again. H said no. He said that the last time, he had to "do all kinds of things".
I'm hoping later this year, he will agree to R'ville.
Our marriage is getting better but I don't think it's unreasonable for me to have trust issues, especially, financial ones, given our history.
Wow, SS, your stories dredge up bad memories for me. My incidents weren't the same, but the feelings certainly are. I commend you greatly for your attempt at salvaging this M. I'm not sure I would have been able to even think about it after being as far down the road as you two were.
One note: I've found through the years that the only people that truly understand the difficulties of step-life are those that have walked in the step-life shoes. I hope you have other more situation-specific resources helping you through this.
Thanks, CV. I agree with you. I go on steptalk.org a lot, too. Unfortunately, It's very common to find fathers enamored with their daughters, to a pathological level. Some fathers don't want them to grow up.
The way I see it, if they're having sex (as my SD23 is since her BF spends the night), they're not little girls anymore and don't get my financial support.
I think my H would feel the same way I do if the shoe were on the other foot and I were asking him to financially support my 23 year old son who had his own financial means.
It's sad it had to come to this.
SS, is your H a reader? If he is, you might suggest to him that he read "The Millionaire Next Door". It goes into a lot of detail about why it is a bad idea to financially support your kids past the point that they should be doing it themselves. It also talks about how it's important to put your own financial needs FIRST. Often we sacrifice our own financial needs for our kids, this can result in A)us having to live a diminished lifestyles in retirement or not getting to retire at all and B)the very kids we're trying to help become permanently dependent upon that help and can't ever break free and get by on their own. There's a lot of other great financial info in the book, it's a very interesting read. If your H isn't a reader then perhaps you could read it and discuss some of the info with him.
thanks, AS. that's exactly what i could foresee, us having to live a "diminished lifestyle". there are many ways we could have used that money to enjoy our lives and the fruits of OUR labors.
i have nothing against assisting our children when they are adults, just not financially. i don't want to give my own adult son money, let alone someone else's.
there comes a time when we have to realize our job is done on the money-giving front.
i'll suggest the book. thank you for the suggestion!
The point is not whether or how long H should provide financial help to his children. But rather that he needs space to make those choices on his own without it saying something to you about his love for you or commitment to the M.
One way to do this is to separate finances. It might take professional financial help as well as counseling to figure that out. Or, it might be as simple as choosing as agreeing for you each to have discretionary spending accounts.
The important thing is to really examine the behaviors around financial matters, understand them. and choose something different. It sounds like you are trying to fix H, control his choices, use his choices as a litmus test, and manage his R with SD. Better to work on yourself and with your H on your partnership.
If you resent the choices you make about your money, make different choices. Get your own financial advisor. Figure out what you need to have the financial stability you seek as an individual and as a couple. Own it. Make it happen for yourself.
For your M to be healthy and happy, the dysfunctional dynamics around finances need to change. You own those as much as H. The difference is, you can control your contribution to that dynamic, but not his.
FWIW, I agree that is is much healthier for SD to become financially independent. My SD thought she'd get a free ride from us (room, board, tuition) at age 23 or 24 through an MA program. When she learned that we would reimburse only a significant percentage of tuition after each successfully completed class, she totally lost interest. Instead of pursuing an MA in an area to which she was not personally invested, she instead took an entry level job in a field for which she had true passion. Five years later, she is incredibly confident and successful, has her pick of jobs, and makes very good money. Had she coasted as a dependent child for another few years and graduated with an MA that she really didn't care about, she'd be in a very different place.
When she learned that we would reimburse only a ...
SS, isn't this the part that you're missing? That you're trying to rectify? That there is no "we" in your financial decisions regarding your s-kids? I'm not sure how that translates to "you are trying to fix H, control his choices, use his choices as a litmus test, and manage his R with SD." I'd love to hear more on this.
"For your M to be healthy and happy, the dysfunctional dynamics around finances need to change."
they have changed. we are no longer financially supporting his adult daughter. she has a college degree. more education than i have and more than her father has. she needs to support herself.
"It sounds like you are trying to fix H, control his choices, use his choices as a litmus test, and manage his R with SD."
sorry, but you are so wrong here. i don't care what kind of R my H has with SD. i just don't want to give her money. afterall, it is mine, too.
"FWIW, I agree that is is much healthier for SD to become financially independent."
i don't understand why you keep harping on this. if you read my post, you would have seen that she has over $20,000 in the bank of her own money. she has a part-time job. her college tuition was completely paid for. she has no student loans, no loans of any kind to pay. she IS financially independent! why would i agree to keep giving her money??
H is no longer giving her our money. i'm not testing him at all. i don't care if he wants to give her money or not. if he does, i'm gone and i'll separate our money that way. if he doesn't, i'll stay and work on our marriage.
SHE IS NOT A PART OF OUR MARRIAGE AND THAT'S HOW I HAVE TO HAVE IT. she is his daughter. he can love her, do things with her, have any kind of relationship with her that he wants to (as long as it does not include discussions about our marriage), all that. i'm sorry but i don't want to give her money. i will not give him the "space" to make that choice without saying something to me because it effects me and my finances.
i would not do that to him, either, by giving money to support my adult child without his permission. it's his money, too. it's a MARRIAGE, he's not single. if he wanted that type of "freedom", he should have stayed married to his kids' mother, for God's sake.
things in step families are not the same as the bio family.
can he pay for her dinner? sure. can he take her (or his sons) out to a play or a ball game and pay? sure.
i'm talking about THOUSANDS of dollars here, since she turned 18. i am done paying for them, legally and now, in my heart and mind. you're trying to make it something other than what it is. plus, it's been settled.
CV, we cross posted. you're exactly correct. the WE was left out and the decision to support her was his.
now, i'm putting myself back in and i want to be a part of it and say, enough is enough. if he wants me to be a part of supporting her, i can't any longer. if that's one of his requirements to be married to me, i'm ok with it. i won't be married to him.
i can't imagine marrying someone else, say next year, and them thinking i would accept financially supporting their adult children?
i don't know how else to put it to make it understandable.
SS, I really have no experience on these kinds of things, but I can see you are clear about what you want, and that's so important...Stay true to yourself.
The immediate issue may be settled. But the dysfunctional dynamic does not really seem to have been touched. Until that is changed, financial disagreements will continue to hurt you and your M. The more helpful goal is to aim at prevention :-)
Tori, thanks for dropping in. I appreciate your support.
Oldtimer, the dysfunction has been addressed. It hasn't been totally "fixed" because I think H would love to continue giving his daughter money, hence my trust issues. He's is really in the first stage of his "empty nest syndrome" whereas, I went through mine years ago.
MC of some sort will have to happen, IMHO.
ss, I have no step-children experience but I think Oldtimer makes some valid points, come back and read the posts again later.
Do I pay half of everything with my small SS check while he makes 5 times a month what I do?
It could be figured on a percentage basis. And I think since your financial circumstances are a major sticking point in the marriage, seeing a financial adviser about this might be very helpful. A knowledgeable disinterested third party can sometimes make all the difference in walking through these charged issues.
Good luck.
thanks, bug. we saw a financial attorney about 10 years ago. we created a living trust to address all the financial issues that go along with having a step family. the problem is, H has ignored the stipulations of the trust. now, i'm holding him to them.
as long as he does not give our marital funds to his kids (to the tune of $500 a month), we're of like minds with it comes to money.
what's crazy to me is how he can think it's ok to help his daughter (who has her own money) and scoffs at giving my adult son a matching amount (a living trust requirement that both sides get matching monitary gifts, excluding birthdays, christmas, etc.). to me, that just shows how ludicrious this was; he finds that to be asking too much of him but not of me. that stipulation was put there by our attorney to protect both sides, not just mine.
oldtimer's point about the dysfunction not being "touched" is wrong. it's been touched and stopped, as far as actual funneling money to his side of our family.
as for what motivates that dysfunction for H, that's his demon (in my opinion).
i think neither you nor oldtimer would want to give $500 a month to someone else's adult child. especially, since she's quite capable of supporting herself. heck, i don't want to give my own kid that kind of money each month.
i don't think my position on this is unreasonable nor dysfunctional. i think the dysfunction comes from being married to someone who thinks it's ok to ask this of his wife.
p.s. if i have to separate all our monies and figure out percentages to pay on bills, dinners, groceries, why would i want to stay married to him? it would be easier and less stressful to live on my own, with my own means. i can't be married and live that way.
This is such a complex issue. I can see both sides of it, even though my perspective is that of a SM.
For example, I could ask that if you were not going to reconcile with your H and met someone new that was spending $500/mo on his daughter, would you expect him to stop because his money would suddenly become marital money? I think probably not, because you would recognize that you might not have a leg to stand on. But that's different.
I think the real key in your sitch is that this is not a NEW M. You've been M'd for 15 years, which means you spent a good portion of your M, and I'm sure your personal finances, on your steps when they were younger. When people hear your sitch *now* and your approach to things *now*, I don't think that's being taken into consideration. So if splitting things up by percentages were a viable option, then it should have been done years ago when it was 1 of you vs. 4 of them. Your H should have been paying 80% of everything. I didn't get that impression from your earlier posts, but rather that your income was used to supplement his shortfall. I also got the impression that you were previously very generous, but simply feel now like enough is enough.
There really isn't a correct answer, or a right or wrong. It really boils down to what works for you, and I don't think there's anything wrong with defining your personal hill.
I understand that H is currently complying with your wishes. I would disagree that the dysfunction has been addressed.
Here are two problems I see:
(1) Trust and love are too closely connected to in your mind to the idea that H should apparently have no real financial autonomy in your M.
(2) H and his D are at very different places in their lives due to their ages than you and your S. This is fine as long as both sides recognize that and allow space for that. But, that doesn't seem to be happening.
To be in a marriage with shared financial goals does not require one to forfeit all financial autonomy. Nor does allowing for some financial autonomy require all bills to be split into percentages, nor any other complicated dynamic. You might, for instance, decide that you each get $100 or $1000 a month that you may spend in any way you wish. There is nothing complicated, unloving, fiscally unsound, or anti-marriage in such an agreement.
So, if you each get $100/month (or whatever) to spend on your own freely, would it still be a problem if H used his to help out his D?
Of course I may be mistaken, but my sense is that (1) you would still resent how he spent that money and (2) you wouldn't go for him having that kind of financial autonomy in the first place.
If that's right, then there seems to be enough dysfunction when it comes to finances in your M that financial control issues will continue to put it at significant risk.
Last thing: FWIW, I have found that if I make greater progress toward my goals when I try to (1) open my mind to ideas toward which I feel the most emotional resistance, and (2) stop reacting defensively.
CV, i appreciate your understanding. to answer your question, no, i would not expect a someone to stop spending $500/mo. on his adult daughter. but what i would do is steer clear of that man because he has major guilt issues. if his daughter were in the same situation as my SD23 is, there would be no need for him to give her that money.
also, knowing what i know now about how my H is and his kids, i would not have married him. but, even if i did, i would have, at the very least, kept our money separate. then he could spend on his D23 'till his heart's content. but he wouldn't be able to afford it because i supplemented his income to make his "disney daddy" life with them possible.
oldtimer, this issue goes back to trust. this is not "my wishes". we made agreements a long time ago about our finances. we made legal documents. he did not live up to them and honor them. he disrespected me and our marriage by doing that; placing their financial comfort above mine after all the sacrifices i made for him and them and after the time we agreed it would stop, for the most part.
oldtimer, we have financial autonomy. i buy what i want. he buys what he wants. in fact, i love to see him buy things for himself. and i'm not afraid to buy things for myself. we don't ask each other for permission.
however, $6,000 a year to his daughter is not "autonomy". at this point in her life and in her situation, that's stealing from me. that's how i feel about it. i never resent anything he wants for himself or us. but this is a partnership, not a sole proprietorship, and she's not one of the partners anymore. unless she's his mini-wife?
i'll give you this: i do not want our money spent to support his adult children anymore. i WOULD resent it if he did that. after almost $200,000 in support going towards his kids over the past 16 years, am i not allowed to now want that to stop?? they are not children anymore. i shopped at walmart for my clothing for years because of all the financial obligations of H. our lives were dictated by his child support and what he wanted in life (rental properties, boats, home on the water, etc.). i went along and sacrificed.
when do you think my sacrificing for his kids should be allowed to stop? are you giving your SD $500 a month? you say she's able to take care of her own life now and doesn't need help. so is mine. so what? when you agree to let your wife give yours $6,000 a year, let me know. then i'll be more inclined to listen to you and not react so "defensively". until then, i don't think you have a lot of credibility here.
scaredsilly, I don't see that I said I thought anyone should be giving any adult children $500, sorry for that misunderstanding.
About the proportional giving there are ways to figure that with income and outgo, each puts in a proportion based on income and it leaves both with discretionary income. It doesn't take into account income from savings but if he has decided in the past not to honor an agreement about that, I'm not sure what you can do.
Was this money issue a stated boundary when you decided to reconcile?
bug, i know you weren't saying that. it seemed to me that Oldtimer was implying that i'm "dysfunctional" if i'm not ok with it for SD23.
we put in $200/month for christmas gifts into our christmas club; $1,200 to his side and the same to mine. we give each adult child $100 for birthdays and the same for grandchildren and his mother. his side outnumbered mine for a long time but that never bothered me. i don't keep count on something like that. he has alluded to mine now outnumbering his but i don't even want to hear about that. he has three kids and they will have kids so i'm not going to start counting pennies (and decendants).
my H is very frugal. i've always been much more giving and generous than he is, unless it comes to HIS kids, then he's generous...but not to mine. i won't have this double standard anymore. if anyone can use a $500-a-month gift, it's my S40 who has five kids, a stay-at-home wife, a mortgage, two car payments, and a child who needs on-going medical procedures!
but i'm not asking for us to support him in anyway.
i won't get involved in dividing our income and paying things proportionately. to me, it's way too late for that. i have paid in much more, proportionately for his obligations than mine, primarily, because i didn't have any and he did. so now, since our money was always "ours", it's too late for making it "his" and "mine". it would not be fair to me.
yes, this boundary was one of my list of things i need in a mate and one of my firm boundaries that i stated to H prior to our R attempt. he was the one who, without prompting, advised me that he had told his daughter it was stopping. that would have been the only way i would stay in this relationship. i was very clear.
so, i'm not dysfunctional. i think giving money to an able-bodied, adult college graduate, who has no loans and more money in the bank than most people, IS dysfunctional, especially, when your mate, who is not that person's parent, objects. it's wrong on so many levels and to me, begs for counseling. H has refused MC before but i think it is something that will have to happen. i will broach it again soon.
thankfully, "adult support" has stopped. all monies coming into our marriage have always been "ours". all monies going out have to be "ours", too, or else the accounting favors him (who is still working) when it was supposed to be "ours" after i retired and brought in less.
i appreciate your advice and empathy, bug.
I didn't read Oldtimer's post as saying you were dysfunctional but she can speak for herself.
I hope he holds up to his agreement with you.
thanks, bug. i hope i misinterpreted.
SS, just wanted to drop by and say thank you for your help.
Also, I think this issue should definitely be solved at a later time, when you feel your H and you are 100% committed to a loving M. Only then you will be able to solve this without feeling on edge. Does this make sense? Give it a few months...
Thanks, tori. But, as far as I'm concerned, it's already solved. Money has stopped going to his D23.
The only reason it's been addressed here repeatedly, IMO, is because I refuse to take any flack for this boundary. ;-)
Thanks for dropping in and your encouragement.
hi ss, sweet lady,
i am coming by to say hello, offer my encouragement and LEARN from your strength. i have not read everything but i too would have trouble with the $500 monthly payments to SD.
while it is an issue left over from the old M, i think it is also an opportunity for you and H to work through it in a new way, hence creating the new M. perhaps it is not so much the outcome as it is the process.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((ss))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Thank you, Grace . you are such a kind person! Thank you for looking in on me .
You're right; H and I are working on our new (and improved!) M! it's difficult sometimes because we're still carrying some baggage with us from the old one . we're trying to unpack and sort thing out: what to keep, what to throw out, and what to mend.
it's a process.
anyone would be very lucky to have you!
i just thought of another thing i worked on this weekend that H had complained about before. he used to say i didn't want to do things with him. part of that is that he's an extrovert and seems to need "constant" stimulation, and i'm and introvert and appreciate more quiet time and reflection.
so...i guess that's progress?
I found this post of yours, and can relate to the ongoing conflict of introverts and extraverts in a M. I believe that my failure to compromise and meet her needs for social stimulation and activity contributed to the S. I'm the introvert in the M. This part of the R requires ongoing communication and compromise. I go to church alone every weekend, and get up early before work to read. We take a dance class twice a week and go out social dancing 1-2X per week.
CL
thanks, CL. i appreciate you bringing this back to my attention. H still needs to be doing things, especially on the weekends. i've been traveling to where he works for the winter (about 100 miles from our home) and staying there through the week. we go out to dinner, together and with friends from work, four nights a week. i help him with running errands and cleaning, laundry, etc., and then get "dolled up" in the afternoons for our dinners out.
it's nice and he enjoys having me there. we've decided i will come home on thursdays now, and travel back on saturday afternoons so we can do something together on sundays and he's not alone all weekend. it's a compromise because someone has to return home to get the mail and take care of things while he's out of town.
we are talking about things so resentments don't build. i'm letting go of the small things and trying to focus on the positives.
it's getting a little easier every day. nothing is perfect and we all have faults and little irritations that we hope our spouses will accept and not focus on...
SS, it seems you and your H are finding room to compromise and to make adjustments so you can meet each other's needs.
Yes, focus on the positives, and celebrate them!
I'm very happy for you! ((((()))))
Thank you, tori! I think we are rewriting our relationship. It's a little harder for H because I put so much of my needs on the back burner for so long. His reactions to having to compromise are getting better.
Thanks for dropping in. We don't get as much traffic over here. I'm still looking in on you and the other great people in newcomers. You're doing wonderfully!
Thank you, SS! I always appreciate getting your feedback, and it's nice to see your success story. Do you realize this? You are being successful at repairing a R that might've ended if you hadn't done anything. So feel proud of yourself. And continue being patient.
ss, it's nice to see that you and your H are working on the M and are able to talk about it. I hope that one day I can get to that point. Are you talking about your issues now more than pre-BD? Do you feel like the conversations are different?
I think you are doing a good job with your boundary issue and I would feel the same. We went through something similar with H's brother. He is a drug addict and H was putting up hotel money, bailed him out of bad check charges to the tune of $1500, etc. It flew all over me and caused us some problems and arguments. H finally had to get to the point where he realized that he couldn't help someone that didn't want to help himself. It took him ODing and lying to H to get to that point.
It sounds like for now, the money issue is resolved. However, I understand how sensitive of an issue it is for you and why you have trust issues surrounding it.
hi ga, welcome over here. i hope your sitch moves over here but i think it may take some work on your H's part. my H had to be away from me for a year and only after i let him know i was finished with limbo and moving on, did he want to R.
yes, we are talking about them, at least, i am. i had to let him know this morning how some of his impatience effects me. i see impatience as critisim. i find it hard to deal with because i'm not being impatient. it's one of the things i chose to work on while DB'ing. i practiced with strangers (cashiers, clerks) because i'm always in a hurry and wanted everyone else to be, too.
i began to appreciate what others were doing and tried to remember that they had things in their own lives they were dealing with. i stopped thinking everyone should measure up to what i wanted.
H is a perfectionist (when it comes to others) and he forgets that he's not in charge of everyone! sometimes, he fails to appreciate what is done for him. i experienced this throughout our M and decided i need gratitude in my life from the people i love, not impatience.
so, i told him that it was painful to experience that when i was trying so hard to meet his expectations. in fact, i really exceeded his expectations on this particular event but he was running late and did not live up to the time we were to have to finish our exchange of information. he became impatient and a little surly.
he also still will not say, "i love you". everytime i talk to him on the phone he just says "bye" at the end of a call. i don't say it, either, because of the pressure it would put on him to reply in kind.
i told him this morning that it makes me feel not valued when he's impatient and that it hurts that he won't say "i love you" because it feels like it would be him admitting a mistake, which he hates to do. afterall, if he says he loves me, then all the things he said were wrong with me on BD and after, and all the things his kids did that he blamed me for, would be what...wrong?
maybe i AM loveable?
i said i need love and appreciation in my life and i think everyone does.
he did text back that i was "very right, love you". so, it's a crawl forward...
The text back to you is more than a crawl forward. I think it's good. I also think it's great you communicated how you felt. Keep it up, SS. I have faith in you :-)
HI SS!
I am so happy to see you here. I know I've said that before but I'll say it again. ;-)
And yes that was nice that your H is listening to your needs.
Take care!
thank you tori and vero! it's not so active over here but the desparation that i felt when i first got into newcomers is gone, too.
our M is still a work in progress. we continue to do things together and have nice conversations. we keep each other company on a lot of outings.
sometimes, however, when i feel my H try to control me or show impatience, i start to wonder. does anyone else on here, after the WAS wants to R, get back together and wonder if they should have stayed apart and gone ahead and kept their life totally their own?
the little things that people go through in a M make me scared that i could be making a mistake. i went so long (12 months) by myself and got very used to not having to live with another person's faults nor have to have them live with mine.
i find that i settled so long for ingratitude and impatience and controlling behaviors that just the slightest bit of that really makes me scared; scared to experience it again.
any suggestions or experience getting back together along those lines?
I went to an open air art show with with friend yesterday and we had a great time. Driving home we were talking about marriage, divorce, separation and people we know who have gotten into R so quickly after getting D.
My conclusion, based on only my experience, is that fear drives people into quick second R. I know that I've only started feeling OK with this in the last 6 months so I was S 18 months before the fear eased.
I'm actually quite happy with my life right now and the amazing thing is all the fears I had initially have evaporated.
And life keeps opening up new things for me.
There's a Joni Mitchell song (I know you and I will know Joni
) Free Man in Paris, a couple of lines stick in my head...I was a free man in Paris, I felt unfettered and alive.
I feel unfettered and alive for the first time in my life.
(these are the posts I hated reading when I first came to Newcomers)
I love that song, Bug. That's how I was feeling the last months of our S.
Now, I feel tethered; not all the time but more than before the R. I can't suggest more separation time from H. I don't think that would be fair or kind. I'm just wondering how much of these feelings are just part of being married?
You'd think I would know, having spent almost 40 years being married to someone...
However, I've never reconciled before. What I want to do is maintain some of the independence I got back during the S without my H feeling rejection about it.
One good thing that he told me is that he learned to do things by himself and enjoy them during our time apart. Prior to that, anytime I declined, he felt rejection.
I don't know. Maybe if I invited him to go to lots of things I know he'd rather not and he declines, he will be able to accept mine easier?
Thanks for dropping in, Bug. I'm so glad you're feeling good about your life!
If you are doing things that you enjoy but he might not, why would he feel rejected and is that your problem?
Have you talked about his with him?
SS, what you're feeling is normal. There's a period of adjustment you both need to go through. Did you read the getting back after a separation book? I found it very interesting.
I would be honest and tell him you're adjusting to you two being together, and that you learned you like to do things on your own sometimes. Just make sure you make room for joint activities too.
Treasure your H. You're so blessed to have a chance to save your M! (((((((((((((()))))))))))))
Well, it's my problem if he tries to make it mine. He's said in the past that one of his biggest complaints about me is that I didn't want to do things with him. Of course, I feel this is an exaggeration and rewriting history. It was true, to an extent, during the last year or so we were together. I was so resentful of his D23 living with us and treating me disrespectfully that I withdrew from him and our relationship.
We had usually done a lot together before that period of time. However, during our S, I began to realize that I went along with a lot and didn't express my preferences, just kept trying to be a good companion for him.
We have discussed it some. I do things without him now, mostly with my grandkids and my son and his wife. I don't know, Bug. I guess I would like to say no, I'd rather read a good book than go to some event but after I go, I realize I really enjoyed myself and I'm glad I went.
Maybe I'm just trying to keep from feeling controlled again? It's really confusing for me now.
I get it SS, and I'm concerned that I would be in the same boat as you. I've never known how to "go back." Like when after you learn something hurtful? How do you "unknow" it.
One good thing that he told me is that he learned to do things by himself and enjoy them during our time apart. Prior to that, anytime I declined, he felt rejection.
So if you've learned to enjoy activities without him, and he's learned to enjoy activities without you, what is the problem currently? Are you doing *anything* together? Do you *want* to do anything with him, or are you struggling with resentment perhaps?
he tried to make me feel guilty for not wanting do dive 100 miles on a sunday a few weeks ago, to go to a musical event with him. he works in another town during the winter and i've been driving over every week to keep him company (a major complaint he had on BD). i used to stay home.
i had just driven 100 miles on friday to return to our house to get mail, pay bills, run errands, see my grandkids, etc. we had made prior arrangements for me to return on monday morning because he had a meeting with his boss on sunday evening, my normal time for returning.
the boss cancelled on saturday and H had free time so he went to the weekend event on saturday and sunday. he kept telling me how nice it was on saturday and i was pretty sure he wanted me to come back for it on sunday but i didn't take the bait. i didn't want to get up early, drive over two hours with my dog to get to his condo, and then get back in the car and drive the 20 miles to the music festival and walk around for hours.
i had already made other plans. his changed and he wanted me with him so he would have a companion (or as he would say, to share the experience with me).
during our discussion a few days later, it came out that he felt resentment about me not coming. well, i felt resentment about him thinking my plans were not important enough. in the past, he's stated i'm not spontaneous enough and i've complained that he's not courteous enough to give me some advance notice for plans. i'm the one who has to do hair and make up (and outfits) and also the one who gets most of the necessary equipment and/or groceries together.
i think we got through it? but i'm not really sure. i still feel afraid to say no to anything he wants to do. i know he really hasn't "learned to do things by himself" and enjoy himself as he claimed. sigh...
It sounds like he didn't say, "I'd love for you to drive up on Sun and go to the festival with me" or was he expecting you to mind read?
You think you got through it but did you solve anything or will this happen again the next time.
You know, reading stuff like this makes me want to buy a cabin deep in the woods and become a hermit. Not on your side of things, but your H's.
So if I understand correctly, he is resentful because you didn't do what he wanted you to do? See, I don't get this. This kind of thinking in my mind isn't far off from people that do school shootings. That if a person doesn't get what they want, they can be pixxed. Not because they did anything to warrant getting what they want. Someone/society just "owes" them.
I think mostly it strikes a cord with me because I've been dealing with it forever with my H. My hypothetical exchange with H:
H: (walks in, sees me eating) Yum! That looks good! Can I have it?
CV: No, it mine. It's 7:00 at night and I haven't eaten a thing since yesterday morning.
H: Biotch! You're so freaking selfish!
It's a boundary issue. He doesn't see the line between him and me. He doesn't recognize me as a separate being. And since he wouldn't deny himself, I shouldn't either. It seems like the same thing yours is doing, that he doesn't recognize that you have plans, that your plans are important.
I'm wondering if your H experienced when he was out on his own that the world wasn't going to cater to him like he expects you to? I'm wondering if that's part of why he came back? The fact that you've done that before leads me to believe that you've been pretty catering to him in the past. I don't know how he can be resentful just because you don't cater to him. What is logic/rational for why you should?
this is all so pathetic! it's as if there's really no hope. i read on here so many women who are lamenting the absence of their H's but go on to say what selfish bastards they were (and still are).
and no, bug, he didn't ask and expected me to read the subtle hints and volunteer. as far as the next time, i'm hoping i made an impression on him that i am a separate human with different needs. it's hard for him to see that.
i think my three H's got used to being spoiled. it's really my fault. i wanted to be such a good wife (translate: mother) to all of them that they not only got used to it, they pushed for more. i don't know if it's them taking advantage of our desire to nurture, the way they were raised by their mothers (i'm guilty, too, with my selfish son) to think they are so special, or the "y" chromosome?
i think my H did begin to realize how much he NEEDS me. i was ridiculous when it came to meeting his needs. i would try to anticipate them, even. i am stepping back now and it will be hard for him.
i had to laugh, to myself, of course, this past week. for years, i would fill up his weekly medicine holder with all the pills and supplements he takes each day. he had to do it for himself after BD.
last week, he put the empty holder by the sink in the bathroom and left it there for a couple of days. in the past, i would have jumped on that and filled it up to keep him healthy and to "show" him how much i cared about him.
LOL! not now. after a few days, he finally filled it himself. i can't go back to being mommy.
Totally get it! But you're definitely on the right path. Keep it up! That is one aspect of your R that YOU can change. If you get a chance, read up on over-functioning. Sort of like co-dependence but different. It helped me anyway.
Bug, I get the communication thing, how it's not good to mindread, how both parties need to be clear, etc. But I'm not seeing how that solves anything in this case. Consider:
SS's H: "I'd really like you to drive up here and go to the concert with me on Sunday."
SS: "Sorry, H, it sounds fun, but I already have plans with x. Besides, I was just up there and I'm tired and don't feel like driving it again right now."
SS's H: "Biotch! I'm resentful that you aren't willing to do what I want you to."
So now everything is spelled out in clear, spoken words, but they're exactly where they started. What's the point? I don't believe SS's husband needs to change his communication style, I think he needs to learn to respect her as a human being. And considering her a "slave" human being doesn't count.
CV, if your conversation happened then she knows what he's thinking and can make decisions based on that knowledge. {It would only take someone saying that to me one time and my decision would be made.)
Communication is how we express our needs and it helps others respect us as an individual.
Without having that conversation she's (and we all do it at some point)operating on assumptions.
If he didn't ask her to drive up and became resentful that she didn't, I say that's his issue. If he acts out, then she might say, Are you feeling frustrated because I didn't drive up to be with you? That's a step in opening up the conversation to get their needs out in the open and work toward getting both needs met in some way.
It's not a fast process and would probably take several conversation.
ss says she anticipated his needs and mothered him.
Does he expect her to be a slave or, is he expecting her to be who she was before? If she's not willing to be that person now, communicating that to him would be in the best interests of the R.
thanks CV and Bug. you are both right. i looked on line at over functioning in a relationship and that's exactly what i used to do. i still find myself starting to do it but now i hold back because i really don't want to do those things anymore.
the article i read also stated that my intention to curtail my over-functioning should be communicated to my H, which is was some time ago (about a month or so). however, i find that this type of change will have to be communicated repeatedly, especially when one person is being denied a service they used to have. they need reminding...
so, i did tell H that i had given too much and done too much in the past and that my own happiness and needs were sacrificed to do so. i indicated to him that i would not be doing that in the future. but you know how it is, they only hear what they want to hear and then don't remember. i imagine it's difficult for him after so many years of getting his way and controlling so much of our relationship.
i'll keep "gently" reminding him that our needs are particular to ourselves. hopefully, he can take it.
one good thing did happen this morning. he advised me that one of his kids, S27, texted him (why do they think this is the best way to communicate?) that he would like for H and his three kids to take a trip together in 2014.
H saw my face and asked how that made me feel. i told him that i was wondering if his S wanted him (us) to pay for it. he reassured me that, no, the S mentioned that he would be opening a savings account for it to pay his way.
I told him i was fine with it, then. i think he can do whatever he wants with his kids. it would be nice for him. he doesn't believe it will even happen because that S is a big talker and doesn't get things done, but, at least we have an understanding that he doesn't have to feel bad about being with his kids without me and i don't have to feel bad about being with my family without him.
that's a big change in our relationship from before and i'm hoping it will keep us both from feeling resentment.
thank you both for your advice and thoughts. they help me a lot!
hi ss, you sound good! it is so nice to hear about the work that you and h are doing to build a new M. ((((((((((((( ))))))))))))
Aw, thanks, Grace. We're trying. It gets a little better each day.
Thanks for looking in on me.
SS,
Great to take care of yourself and to stop mothering H. Really, really good. It might be helpful to recognize that over-functioning is a symptom of co-dependency. Have you ever tried a group for co-dependents or al-anon or something? Consider, reminding H that you won't take care of his needs so that he will take care of his needs is pretty much as co-dependent as taking care of his needs in the first place :-)
He's a grown-up, let him be. He'll figure it out, not your job. (How nice :-) )
hey, oldtimer. glad i didn't run you off. i've read "codependant no more" and i got a lot out of it. i was too effected by my H's needs and happiness. now i'm trying to focus more on mine.
it's not easy. i have to tell myself many times to not do things that he should do for himself. he used to just have to mention something and i would get it, fix it, or call about it.
my H is a manager in his career. as such, he thinks people are pretty much his tools to get the things done he wants done. i used to allow that at home and with me.
our separation allowed me to do exactly what i wanted, when i wanted. now i hear his hints but i don't act on them. when he spots something he think needs attention and mentions it, i don't bite. i don't tell him i won't, i just don't do it. just because something is important to him doesn't mean it becomes my priority.
my life is my priority now. my happiness and contentment. i won't remind him that i won't take care of his needs but i will let him know, if he asks, if it's not what i want to do. i think he IS figuring it out. it can't be easy for him having things his way for so long...
thanks for dropping by. i appreciate your input.
SS, thanks for keeping us up on how it's going. It's a nice reminder to everyone that it isn't all smooth-sailing even after the commitment to R.
I'm curious about some of your statements (on my thread), like that you don't think you'll be M'd forever, and that you're not sure you'll be able to fully trust him again. So, what then are you building your current R on? Do you just enjoy his company that much? Or is it the financial security? Just curious what offsets the comfort you had achieved on your own.
I think it's a little of both. We do have an old friendship we're trying to repair and he does offer me financial security. As long as I can be satisfied in my life with him, there's no reason to leave. Splitting up all our assets would be a nightmare.
I do find him trying to be thoughtful. For Valentine's day, he took one of my items I needed from a mate and made a whole project out of it and surprised me. I was very touched that he mentioned the item from the list.
I will be trying to keep some of the independence I gained during our S. If I can maintain a lot of that, I'll be content.
My greatest fear, though, is him cheating my son out of his inheritance from me. We have a living trust but who really monitors the accounts after one spouse is gone? My son was left out by his own father and will have to depend on his stepmother' s honesty. My H has shown my he can't be trusted with money. I don't know any other fix than to D near the end of my life should I get any advance notice? I would have been so much better if we had kept all our resources desperate.
Please, don't anyone who has not been in a step family, with adult step children, and my H, tell me I'm too concerned with money...
You bring up such an important topic. Your son's inheritance after you pass on. Would it be possible that you start by adding his name on to your account. and/Or make him your conservator when you're ready?
Vero, thanks for looking in. I don't think I can put my son's name on our joint accounts.
We have a living trust but my H will be the trustee after my death. I would have to depend on his honesty and I don't think I can.
H and I have been doing well. We are enjoying each other's company. Things are not as strained as the were in the beginning of our R.
Why don't meet with a lawyer to find something that works? No reason to stew. As far as I know, you can change a living trust pretty easily.
A lawyer put our trust together.
SS, what do you think would be an equitable way to handle things? This is really a touchy and complicated subject. The widow across the street has issues now with her steps. She's only 60, but the steps are chomping at the bit to get some things that belonged to their dad. The problem is that she's still using those things. She promises they can have them when she's done with them (eg. antique ice box.) And it's not like the things are going to wear out or depreciate in value. So they want them now, but she's not ready to give them up. If it was their mother instead of their stepmother, they would never approach her for these things, but because she's their step, they feel entitled.
Sadly, I can see both sides.
And even more sadly, I'm sure I'll be in the same boat as her some day, as my H is 9 years older and not particularly health conscious. No guarantee, of course. At the same time, until the last few years, I made the majority of the income and he had the majority of the expenses, with joint custody of 4 kids and child support, and had nothing coming into the M whereas I had a number of assets. They have another parent/household, my son does not. I could definitely see giving my son more, and I can easily see it getting ugly some day.
i don't know, CV. while i'm with him, i monitor all our accounts. he's pretty frugal, except for his D23. the trust has provisions for all financial "gifts" to our adult children to be matched for the other side. however, he scoffed at the notion that my son should be given a matching financial gift if we continued to subsidize his D23 with $500 a month. sigh...
his D23 told me a year ago that "what's his is mine", referring to her dad and everything he and i (and i alone prior to our M) have worked for. he was sitting there when she said it and failed to correct her or address it.
i think there's ways around the trust. after i'm gone, my son will not have me to look out for his interests. cash can be given to H's kids without my S knowing. the only thing he would not be able to hide would be the sale of our real estate holdings.
so, i think i'm looking at some sort of financial separation as i get older. my S would not want to get involved but i refuse to let what i've worked for all my life go to someone else's kids, especially, since they and i don't have a relationship anymore after the last five years of hell living with his adult S and D (mainly the D).
i don't think this is unique among step families. i read step forums all the time and it's all to common. there aren't the "ties that bind" that bio families have.
on a positive front, H and i are really getting along great. our pet names for each other are resurfacing, we're laughing and joking around a lot, and most of the awkwardness and hesitancy is disappearing.
i don't think we'll get back to the way it was before the living situation with his kids but i think it will be good again. i needed this to happen to me. i think my expressing my needs and boundaries is a very good thing. i have no built up resentments now. i'm not afraid to say no. H is very thoughtful of my needs now, almost to the point of nurturing. i find i miss him when he's not around.
he's not perfect but neither am i. i'm just trying to work with what we have and take care of myself, too.
thank you for looking in. i'm sorry your sitch is still quagmired.
No, I don't think it's unusual either. I wish I had understood it more before I got into it; I think I would have passed. It does cause me to take D very seriously, though.
I'm really thrilled that you are getting back to a good place! Do you think you could say what is different now? It would give me and others some insight into what it looks like "after the storm." What has changed and by whom?
I think the major difference is his adult children are not a part of my life or our marriage anymore. We've gone back to being a couple.
We were always compatible. He's very neat and precise and I am, too. We differ on other things (I'm an introvert, he's an extrovert, I read, he watches tv) but they're not the things that drive one crazy.
We always enjoyed each other's humor and have similar goals. What killed our relationship was having his son and daughter live with us and my reaction to the frustration and anger it caused me and his reaction to me (and failure to react to his D's sense of entitlement).
Without them in the picture, it's so much easier to be together. He continues to have his own relationships with them but now respects my detachment from them...at least, for now.
I think a big part of his desire to come home was the attitude I finally developed while he was gone. I could live without him and be happy. I also told him that I would not be as I was before; self sacrificing, generous to ungrateful people, and an afterthought in the planning of the rest of our lives together should we R.
Maybe this was good for him, too?
I don't really understand your answer. So what if a lawyer put the trust together? There is nothing wrong with that, it was probably a good idea to use a lawyer. It may also be helpful to use a lawyer to change the terms of your financial agreements. What is the problem?
There will be no one to make sure he follows the trust agreement when it comes to the terms for financial "gifts" after I'm gone.
He took 20k out of our trust account without my knowledge. I found out when I looked nine days later. My son would not have access to those accounts to monitor then nor would he feel comfortable doing so.
A living trust is not a complete guarantee. He's a trustee. I won't be doing it over. I'll just plan on a financial separation down the road in, say, 15 years or so.
"There will be no one to make sure he follows the trust agreement"
So, change that.
i will...in about 15 years. our lives together are going along great. that fear is way down the road. i'm not going to put our marriage through going to an attorney, again, and letting my H know i don't trust him AFTER I DIE.
that can wait. i'm enjoying myself now and benefiting, financially and otherwise, from our marriage. he's very happy, too. i won't rock the boat. i'm happy with how things are for now.
thanks for dropping in but i don't have a problem with things as they are today. there's nothing to fix, at the moment.
SS, don't picture something bad happening in the future. Enjoy the present as you are doing now, and do whatever you need to do to secure the finances, but don't do this out of fear.
Hi tori, I am. I'm very practical. I will do it to protect my son.
SS,
I'm really concerned that harboring these things will hurt your reconciliation. You are keeping secrets that it sounds like you believe if H knew, H would leave. That isn't an honest, authentic R. What if he had similar secrets?
I'm just not sure how you can feel good about what you are doing or how you can look at H with genuine love and respect under such conditions.
Well, I can. I know there is no such thing as a perfect marriage. I also know no partner in a marriage is 100% honest, 100% of the time.
My H has things I know nothing about, like his relationship with his kids and family. I'm content with that.
My H has deceived me several times with our money. I don't think I can be blamed for any mistrust I feel. As long as I'm with him, I'm not worried. I do check our accounts regularly however, I've gone from daily monitoring to more like weekly, if at all.
His feeling towards me have changed and he doesn't feel the need to protect his assets from me. Of course, I've never given him reason to.
He has qualities that I love and respect. He also makes a great living and we have shared property. Our relationship is working very well now.
This future separation of finances is not something I am thinking about or obsessing about. In fact, it seems to bother you more than it does me.
Thank you for your concern but it's not a major issue in my life at this time.
Oh, I understand the mistrust. I just wish for your own sake there was a path forward that resolved the mistrust.
Glad things are going well for you now. Maybe as time goes on you'll find that a need for a solution takes care of itself because the worry disappears :-)
Thank you! You never know...
Hi SS,
I was just thinking about you and decided to check-in on your thread. Sounds like you are doing so very well...
You are such an example to me. (((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))
Aw, thank you, Grace, but it is YOU who are the fine example to me of how to be especially kind and caring!
I am doing very well. Thank you for checking in. H and I are getting along very well. We have expressed love for each other and we are doing caring and thoughful things for each other.
I hate to say it but it seems to me, the major problems in our marriage came about during the time his adult daughter lived with us. That is something I will never go through again. I also suspect my H realizes this and would not ask for it again.
So, all in all, I'm in what seems to be a good marriage now. We are making plans for our summer vacations and trips and working together on all that needs to be done in our lives. It's a level of cooperation we haven't had since SD23 moved in.
I'm pretty happy! And, the best part of all, I'm no longer afraid! I'm a better person than I was because of this and I know I can be happy, married or not.
I wish that for everyone here, too...especially, YOU!
((((()))))
SS... me again, can I ask what kind of things you did to mess up your chances of reconcilliation? you mentioned you didn't do them over and over (wish I would learn), when was the last big error you did? how long did it take before that till you were repairing your relp? (sorry so many questions, I hope you care to share)... Tx, waitingformagic.
Of course I'll share. I'll go to your thread, though, because I made most of them when I was in newcomers.
ok... I will wait/watch for the post. Tx
hey SS, how are you?!? hope all is well
Hello, Grace! I'm doing very well. H and I are traveling together and enjoying our lives and our marriage.
I think getting his adult daughter out of our home and our marriage has done wonders. We are almost back to the way we were before that all happened.
My focus has changed from H and his kids and family to me, my relationship with H, and my relationships with my son and his family.
What I've learned from all this, primarily, is that I'm entitled to have a happy life, just as others are, and that I'm responsible for making my needs known in a nonthreatening way. Otherwise, resentments build and that leads to bad behavior (at least for me) and isolation.
Thank you for stopping by. I can see on your thread that you're making progress in your life and finding more enlightenment and happiness each day. I know you'll be happy, too!
hi SS,
so happy to hear that you are doing well and are enjoying your life.
i was just thinking about you today and am so excited about what i am learning and wanted to share it with you...
i was listening to a talk on shame and it's impact on worthiness and think i have uncovered so much about what i have been confused about recently... i have been struggling with understanding what made some of the people (like yourself) on this board able to move forward through this process without getting STUCK in beating themselves up and despair about their M.
brene brown gave a talk on shame on the soundstrue website. she said that she initially thought that people who felt worthy had more beautiful lives (no stretchmarks, hardships, etc.) but what she learned from the research is that it was not that way... that the difference was that in the middle of their struggles, they were not willing to put their worthiness on the table... they were not willing to give that away. They did not get stuck in the SHAME which creates unworthiness. it was not that they did not have feelings of shame but that they were shame resilient and were able to work through those feelings.
i thought of you... and brit... and so many others on here that seemed to move through this process much easier... and i think that may be the key. what do you think?
i was excited to share this with you bc you have helped me question and seek until i discovered this... thank you.
Grace, I definitely felt severe shame in the beginning of my sitch. I always tried to avoid my neighbors and would tell them my H was working out of town to explain his absence. Luckily, he did work away a lot so they were used to it. I was so ashamed of being a failure and being "dumped".
I never told anyone but my family about us. I'm retired so I didn't see our friends from work anymore, either. It was all so embarrassing. I did myself away, only going to see family and avoiding all who knew us both.
I have to say, what helped me the most was the letters and lists I wrote to myself. My H had rewritten history so much that, after the initial shock of how terrible I was, I started to rethink all of his versions of me and our marriage.
I began with a list if things I had done for him, his kids, his family, and his friends. I tried to remember everything I did that was generous, living, and considerate towards the people he said I hadn't done enough for.
The list was pretty amazing. I've devoted my life with him to making him happy and I knew that included going way overboard with his family.
It was good to see it all. It helped me to see that he was wrong about me in so many ways. Oh, I had my faults and I worked on them and made myself better but I would not let my goodness be ignored nor forgotten, if only for myself.
Then, I made a list of the things his adult daughter did to me while she lived with us for 2 1/2 years, all expenses paid by him AND me while he was away six months of the year.
It was very enlightening for me. I realized that my resentment was justified but what I did about it was my biggest problem, along with my H's reactions to his daughter.
So, to make a long story shorter, it took away a lot of my shame. I realized that I was a very worthwhile human being. I realized that I had trained people to be ungrateful by doing way too much for them and sacrificing my own needs. I also realized that I needed to find new ways of expressing my needs and my boundaries.
Looking at what I had given was my turning point. It wasn't an overnight thing but a gradual realization. I was not the only person to blame for our sitch. I was ashamed of my H and my SD, too. But that's their cross to bear. As long as my personal boundaries for my core values aren't trampled on and I'm expressing my needs in a kind and non-blaming way, I will not have shame again. I have to work on it daily.
By the way, that was BS what your W said about how things may have been different had you done something differently at the beginning of her cheating with OW. More of shifting the blame to you, trying to make you responsible for her actions and reactions.
Make the lists, Grace. I'm positive your list of what you've done for her will be pages and pages long. Make the other list, too. I'm sure you suffered.
I realized that I was a very worthwhile human being. I realized that I had trained people to be ungrateful by doing way too much for them and sacrificing my own needs. I also realized that I needed to find new ways of expressing my needs and my boundaries.
wow, SS, your post is incredible (i copied it to my thread so that others can read and learn from it.) thank you so so much for the time and the thought you put into it.
i think that i too taught people how to treat me in my Rs. my X and my other significant R in the past both got very self centered and full of themselves, i think bc i had sacrificed my needs and created this dynamic with them...
a while back, based on your words, i had started my list of what X did but I needed to go back and read it again, add to it and remind myself of it. the biggest thing that stood out to me is that how hard she worked to make this all MY fault and how incredibly cruel that is to do to someone who loves you.
i started the list of what i did for her and am still working on it. it is helping me to see things more clearly. i know this will be a process and i am working too on my thoughts and reminding myself over and over that i am worthy and that i am loveable.
thank you so much, SS... i feel as if a light is being turned on for me in how i treat myself and others. ((((((((((((((((((((((SS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
aw, grace. thank you for your kind words. as for your X, she will have a defining moment in her life, too (she should be so lucky) and will have to look at herself as we all have here.
you are a very worthy and lovable person. i've never met you in the real world but i know it from your postings. so you must really be someone special out there!
you and your X were just not right for each other. you may have been at one time but things change, people grow, some don't, some don't change when they need to.
but, you are so LUCKY to have gone through this. think of all the things you've learned! think of all the work you've done!
i think we all have people who come into our lives and teach us things we need to know. i'm grateful. maybe i wasn't at the time but sometimes all we learn is how to avoid that kind of person or how to stand up for ourselves and get what we need to be happy.
there's no set time for getting through this, i believe. i see some drop the rope right away and some linger and hold on long past the time i would have. however, i see successes for both. so it's strictly up to the individual to work it out. one thing i am certain of, though, is that we DO work it out. we get through it and find out that there is not just ONE person out there for us. there are MILLIONS of them.
((((((NG)))))))
one thing i am certain of, though, is that we DO work it out. we get through it and find out that there is not just ONE person out there for us. there are MILLIONS of them.
dear SS, you are so right, sometimes the hyperfocus on the one can cause us to miss out on being open to the love available to us from so so many others..
i feel as if this past year has been a master class in self growth... i am truly grateful for it. i had two of my best friends (the couple who stood up at our first ceremony) tell me yesterday how much they have seen me grow and open up this past year.. what a blessing it was to hear that the work i am doing is showing up in how i interact with others.
thank you for the kind words and support, SS. i feel similarly about you, i wish i knew you IRL.
hi SS, miss your updates.. thinking about you and hoping you are well and happy. (((((((((((((((((((SS)))))))))))))))))))))
Me too. There aren't enough success stories here. Anything new? Hopefully, all is good!
Wow, it's been on hell of a ride. I've been there and back. I'll try to make this shorter than a novel.
My H and I got back together last December. We were doing wonderfully, or so I thought. We only had issues with his adult children and our joint finances being used to help support them. We had stopped supporting his daughter when she graduated from college in December and as far as I was concerned, I was done. This money flow to them was over for me. In fact, I had put it on my list to him as a boundary I was not willing to give up. His kids and I have very little to do with each other and there are many more people I love whom I'd rather give money to if I were so inclined.
Anyway, we got back into town in April and had an disagreement about some money I will be getting as inheritance from my mom. It's not a lot but I want to give it to my son. Keep in mind that my H stipulated in our prenup that any inheritance coming to him from his mother would not be marital property (as the laws usually state).
This did not sit well with H. I later found out that he thought that since I was unwilling to give his adult children anymore money, my inheritance should be ours. This was on Monday. On Friday morning, he AGAIN dropped the bomb that we should not stay together (divorce). I was dumbfounded.
We talked for a while but I would not agree to give his kids our money unless it was a loan. I did not know he was upset about the inheritance at that time.
He went to work and I called my DIL and told her, "He wants a divorce again!"
She, too, was astonished. We had been having such good times together.
Well, now it gets terrible. A few hours later, DIL calls me and tells me that my 17 year old grandson had seen H at an outdoor event, on the beach, on Tuesday night, dancing with another woman whom he left with. H was supposed to be working in another town, about 50 miles away, going over on Tuesday morning and returning Wednesday afternoon.
I immediately called him at work (this was Friday) and told him what I knew: that he had been in town, dancing with a woman, and asked my grandson not to tell his mother or grandmother (me) and that he and I had been "having problems" and he was just dancing with his boss's wife. I ask him whom he was dancing with and he said the same thing. Then he said he was coming home. It was three hours before he usually gets off.
So, I called his boss's wife since she's a brunette and my grandson said H was dancing with a blonde. Of course, she did not dance with H.
During the next three to four weeks, the biggest lies I've ever heard were told to me. I was in hell. I knew he was lying. Every time I proved he lied, he replaced that lie with a new one. He kept saying he wanted a marriage counselor to help him tell the truth. I asked him to move out and he went back to his mother's.
I've never hated anyone so much in my life.
Finally, the day of our appointment with the marriage counselor, he agreed to come clean with the truth, prior to our visit. He finally admitted that his high school sweetheart, who had been living in Texas, and whom he had never been able to convince to have sex with him over 30 years ago, had moved back to our town. Her husband had died of a heart attack at 49. She moved back and called H at his office while we were separated in march of last year. They had had lunch together, gone on a boat ride with her two kids (in OUR friggin' boat) over the 4th of July, and he had sex with her when her kids went back to Texas to visit their grandparents the last two weeks of July. He swears it was only once and that the next time he saw her ( two days later) they both stated that it gas been a mistake and that was the last time he saw her...until the beach dance.
He states he went to the dance with his boss and the wife ( she confirms) and saw the b**** there and decided that since we had such major differences about the monies, he would just move forward and this would help make the break from me.
He left with her and spent the night at her house. He says he slept on the couch. He says that her three kids were there ( they were) and she would never do anything while they were home. He also states that the sexual incident was so catastrophic that he never wanted sex with her again.
I never thought I would stay with him after infidelity. In fact, I've always told him it would be a deal breaker. But, we are still together. We are still going to counseling. He has done a drastic 180. When I told him I was through, it's as if he fell back in love with me again. He tells me everywhere he goes. He let me put a GPS tracker on his phone. Whenever I'm sad or angry, he comforts me and apologizes for hurting me. He's more attentive of my needs than he's ever been in our entire marriage. He sent the b**** (sorry, I hate her) a "no contact" letter that stated his relationship with her was a horrible mistake, that he was trying to win back my love and get his integrity back, and for her to never contact him in any way. It stated that she was never to call him again and should she see him out, to not attempt any contact. I was very happy the morning I took that letter to the post office to mail it, certified, return receipt ( and she signed for it the next day).
Am I a success story? I don't know. I feel as if I'm falling deeper in live with my H each day because of his loving and tender treatment towards me. However, I'm still on a roller coaster of emotions, with sadness and anger coming and going several times a day. My mind is constantly on the happenings that went on while we were separated. I have decided to limit my questions and discussions about it to one hour, one evening a week. I know my anger was damaging when I didn't restrain it.
I'm reading MANY books about how to make it through infidelity, two and three at a time on my kindle! I've read that it can take several years to get through this. I'm feeling much better about us now but there are days that I just want to get my own home without H because he represents so much pain in my life. I must really love him a lot?
I'm so sorry to hear about this but at the same time I'm glad you're BOTH working through this! Please don't hold back in journaling. Sometimes we're (DBers) the only ones who can truly understand where you're coming from.
Sending you lots of hugs SS!
D@mn, SS! I dont' know that I would have had the fortitude.
Bug, it's day to day, sometimes, minute to minute. There are many times during a day that I just want to run away from all the memories. But, they would follow.
My H is treating me better, more lovingly, and more patiently than he has in our 17 years together. He continues to let me know he doesn't want to lose me and is committed, not only to me and our marriage, but to being a better man and husband. He's positive our marriage will be better than it ever was.
I just wish these feeling had come along before I had to go through the pain of infidelity.
.
I just wish these feeling had come along before I had to go through the pain of infidelity.
same here. I agree!!
Thanks, 2ch. From all I've read, we're in for one heck of a rollercoaster ride. I set my calendar for one year from d-day to decide on staying or not. A lot will depend on H's changes; whether they stick or not.
Hey SS, just stopping in to say I've been thinking about you. I haven't been able to spend any time on the board lately, but I still think often about some of the people I've gotten to know, you being one of them. I hope things are going well for you. I know you still had a few kinks to work out, and you had a d-date for things being healthy. I hope the lack of posts on your part are from shear satisfaction with your life and M! Take care!