Last weekend while out with our dance friends, a round of drinks were ordered. The idea was to drink them quickly and then kiss your partner. My W looked annoyed. Our friend asked her why she wasn't kissing me. I probably looked embarrassed. I felt like a terrible secret had been exposed. My W then proceeded to launch her tongue down my throat, in full view of our friends.
I'm going to read the book, in spite of the one objection, but agree it must translate into action, not more introspection. There may be some useful guidance in there.
My W has been cooking me breakfast (eggs, oatmeal, orange juice) and dinner (meatloaf, homemade salad dressing). I encourage her new interest in cooking. The breakfasts have cheered up my mornings. The dinners have a calming and bonding effect, that I don't get in restaurants. We remodeled our kitchen years ago, but have failed to enjoy it together. She used to want to dine out several times per week, but lately has been wanting to cook at home.
I've taken all the confrontations and advice and have decided to start a new thread and title. The title represents the ideal I am striving for, passionate masculinity in my own style.
CL
I received my copy of Passinate Marriage and began reading it. The author recommends that I do so without my W knowing about it. I like some of his initial ideas about marital and sex therapy:
1. Hold onto yourself.
I'm so focused on my performance I lose myself in the process. I need to get myself into the sexual R. I think he also means holding onto yourself in the R as well. Becoming a bolder version of me will enhance intimacy and sexuality. I get to keep working on that masculine-feminine mix of who I want to be, but show it for the world and my W to see.
2. Sexuality is a powerful window into who we are.
I'm curious to see what I learn about myself. I'm guessing that I've been holding onto some longstanding patterns that need to go--avoidance, anxiety.
3.It's the shift from impersonal sex, like boys have, to having sex like a man.
I need to learn what having sex like a man involves, because I doubt that I've been doing it.
The book has my attention, and I'm eager to learn. It's written by a psychologist who can write clinically yet in an engaging manner. Thanks for the recoomendation.
CL
I need to get myself into the sexual R. I think he also means holding onto yourself in the R as well. Becoming a bolder version of me will enhance intimacy and sexuality. I get to keep working on that masculine-feminine mix of who I want to be, but show it for the world and my W to see.
CL, this jumped out at me. I realize that we are all merely somewhere on a continuum between "100% masculine" and "100% feminine," but why do you feel the need to find a "masculine-feminine mix" ?? If you've decided that where you are on the male-female continuum has skewed too far female, than you should be seeking some "100% male" behaviors and activities that push you more to the man side of the equation, yes?
If your wife were posting here, where on that continuum do you think she'd like CL to be ideally? Where were you on it when you two met, and she became attracted to you?
Starsky
Here are some other ideas that lay the foundation for what I'm going to read:
1. Intimacy is not always soothing and often makes us feel insecure.
I have to get away from the ideas that conflict is bad and something to be avoided.
2.Marriage prepares us to live and love on life's terms.
I'm feeling more hopeful that our marital problems can be worked thru. He's normalized what I'm going thru, so I don't feel so flawed.
3.Sexuality as the stage on which you play out your life's drama and rewrite your script.
Sex therapy in my past focused on technique and sex exclusively. He frames sex therapy as personal development. I've done a lot of work on personal development over the years. I'm more prepared to move the M forward than I've ever been.
CL
If you've decided that where you are on the male-female continuum has skewed too far female, than you should be seeking some "100% male" behaviors and activities that push you more to the man side of the equation, yes?
If your wife were posting here, where on that continuum do you think she'd like CL to be ideally? Where were you on it when you two met, and she became attracted to you?
Starsky
I think I was too far feminine when we both met, and have been too feminine for the entire marriage. Who gets to determine the mix? It seems I should create the mix I'll be happy with. I don't like her ratio. I do need more on the masculine side, regardless of whose ratio we're looking at.
CL
It seems I should create the mix I'll be happy with. I don't like her ratio.
I hate to say it, but perhaps you're just not compatible, at least sexually. Was there ever a period in your relationship where you
were?If you're not willing to compromise in this (without losing your own authentic self), I think she has shown by both her past dalliance and her current statements and behaviors that you WILL lose her.
Starsky
I hate to say it, but perhaps you're just not compatible, at least sexually.
Rationally, it would be hard to argue with you, given our track record. A faith perspective, would argue that we can aspire to being sexually compatible, in spite of our history. I'll keep reading Passionate Marriage, out of faith.
CL
2. Sexuality is a powerful window into who we are.
I've been doing some thinking and writing about this statement, becsuse it resonates with me. If you look into the window of CL in his twenties and thirties, it is lacking in color, emotion, sensuality, fun. It's quite a functional room, filled with books for reading. There is a telephone that never rings. A door that is usually closed. This is hardly a setting for connection and intimacy.
The room today has dance shoes, the books are still there, music. The phone rings more often. The door is now open slightly, hoping visitors will come, but still wanting privacy. The window is sometimes open, letting the sounds of the world enter.
There will be no passion without intimacy. This means moving into relationship with others in a healthy way, while holding onto myself. This means letting go of regulating autonomy via isolaton and distance and avoidance, and abandoning connection. This will be a 180 for me.
CL
Highly differenitated people have strong emotional bonds, according to the author of Passionate Marriage. In other words, hold onto yourself during conflict.
My W has been making breakfast for me on a regular basis. I used to keep my books on the kitchen counter, because I used that area to read while she sleeps. She scolded me for not be more inviting to her to sit together in the mornings. This is a change. I wasn't used to to her wanting to do that. I've removed the books, and only bring them back when she's asleep or doing her own thing.
I'm having some adjustment issues at work due to a new supervisor, who's been in her role for six weeks. She manages very closely and wants to be involved in conflict between collegaues or employees and clients, rather than guiding us to resolve it on our own. I've let my W know about the adjustment problems, as I've been bringing the stress home. This will be another R where I will have to "hold onto myself", and not let this person define or overly control me.
CL
She scolded me for not be more inviting to her to sit together in the mornings.
While her methods could us a bit of improvement, this seems part of a pattern in recent posts. From where I sit, your wife has begun saying and doing things that seem to indicate she wants to spend more and better time with you. It does seem there is somewhat of a thaw occurring on her part.
Affirming our potential would be more important than condemning our brokenness. I'm trying to practice these words these days. I found them in a religious book I've been reading on contemporary Christianity. I've been going to church regularly this year, and find it helpful.
I continue to read The Passionate Marriage. His ideas resonate with me. He believes sex and intimacy are intertwined. Sexual problems are problems of intimacy. I've been blaming my W for years, instead of looking in the mirror. I might have had great sex if I married another woman, but I venture to guess I would have had problems with intimacy with any woman I married. Sex would have been bodily sex, versus emotionally intimate sex. The path towards intimacy will prepare me and us for sexual connection. I have faith.
My W complains and worries these days about dirty dishes in the sink, pet odors and hair, not enough money, her weight, and her sister's upcoming divorce. Her sister relies heavily on my W for support. My W gets news of her sister's divorce with the immediacy and frequency of cable news. She cooks breakfast for me when she's up. She has a terrible time getting consistent sleep. I found some workshops for those with sleep problems at our fitness and wellness center and gave them to her. I hope she goes.
CL
CL,
The idea behind you reading Passionate Marriage was for it to inspire you to action. Instead, I'm just seeing more introspection.
Are any of his concepts helping you initiate sex, or get any closer to doing so?
Starsky
CL,
The idea behind you reading Passionate Marriage was for it to inspire you to action. Instead, I'm just seeing more introspection.
Are any of his concepts helping you initiate sex, or get any closer to doing so?
Starsky
The answer would be yes, that it's helping me get closer to doing so. In order for me to have sex, I must have sex on my terms. I've been trying to have sex on her terms and in her style. I've also been too focused on other-dependent intimacy (too performance focused, going to pieces when it doesn't go well, avoidant of conflict). I have to get better at holding onto myself during conflict, including sexual conflict. I don't feel like I'm avoiding or procrastinating, but have gone back to the drawing board in terms of how I view intimacy and sexual problems.
The author uses a term called self-validated intimacy. He views conflict as potential for intimacy. This is a time to share who you are and what's important to you. This is not a time to be dependent on approval or validation. If there's one thing we've learned in Piecing, it's that our partner will not always be there to validate or support us or the M. I've also learned that avoiding conflict, walking on eggshells, pacifying my W, or giving in doesn't work either.
I've been good at other-validated intimacy (listening, spending time together, compromise). I've been a turtle when it comes to conflict, thinking that conflict is a sign that's something is wrong with the R and me--that I've failed once again. This book is giving me a perspective to manage conflict in a different way (holding onto and revealing myself). This would be a 180 that needs to occur, or there won't be any sexual intimacy.
CL
I've been good at other-validated intimacy (listening, spending time together, compromise). I've been a turtle when it comes to conflict, thinking that conflict is a sign that's something is wrong with the R and me--that I've failed once again. This book is giving me a perspective to manage conflict in a different way (holding onto and revealing myself).
Careful . . . you'll go blind that way.
Seriously, I'm glad to see that you're learning this:
I've also learned that avoiding conflict, walking on eggshells, pacifying my W, or giving in doesn't work either.
More later,
Starsky
Careful . . . you'll go blind that way.
You crack me up Starsky.
C_L you inspired me to re-read Passionate Marriage and I'm about half way through it now. I read it about 6 or 7 years ago when I was in my early 30s and re-reading it now is a completely different book. I realise now I just didn't even get it when I read it the first time. I had no frame of reference for much of the discussion.
It is actually a remarkable self-development book.
Have said that - have you discussed the book with your wife? It takes two to have a passionate marriage.
Have said that - have you discussed the book with your wife? It takes two to have a passionate marriage.
The author recommends not disclosing to one's partner that they're reading the book. I would agree. I don't think she would validate me for reading the book, since intimacy is such a charged topic. The skills are new for me, and it's probably best for me to practice on my own for now.
I too am inspired by this book. I feel like I'm on the right path.
CL
I'm practicing the concept of self-validated intimacy from the book, Passionate Marriage. The author advises the importance of self-soothing emotions, and not being infected by other's anxiety and negative stuff. I get too unbalanced by my W's tantrums, provocations, and irritability. The author also has broadened my perspective on intimacy. He views holding onto oneself and making oneself known, even if not validated as intimacy. My strategy has been to distance, wait, pacify, give-in. The author believes this apporoach hurts a R in the long-term.
I'm not perfect. I probably still do old habits most of the time, but I'm more aware of it, and pausing how to think and act differently. I probably am speaking up more often. I doubt if my W notices a difference yet. It's also hard to know when to speak up and when to ignore and let it pass.
She can be critical about my dancing. She doesn't empathize with the difficulty of learning new moves, or appreciating my learning style. She simply wants a quality of dance I can't always deliver. My tendency than is to be passive-aggressive and dance with apathy, until it's over and then be in a bad mood. Last night, I tried to hold onto myself and maintained a quality dance, and let her seek someone else out when that style of dance came on again (soothe my frustration, and not let her criticism affect my enjoyment).
CL
Last night, I tried to hold onto myself and maintained a quality dance, and let her seek someone else out when that style of dance came on again (soothe my frustration, and not let her criticism affect my enjoyment).
That's a great place to start.
That's a great place to start.
Thanks. It's where I'm at. Until I can get better skilled at this consistently, I won't be able to move into the more charged area of sexual intimacy.
My W and I had a difficult lesson yesterday working on Samba Rolls, requiring a different set of skills than a slot or smooth dance. The plan was to split the lesson so that we could share the time for our own agendas. I ended up taking the whole time as I was struggling. My W today complained that I took the entire time, and that she couldn't understand why I wasn't getting it quicker. Here's another opportunity top practice self-validated intimacy (self-soothing of the frustration and doubt from the lesson and my W's lack of empathy, and to hold onto myself by continuing to review the lesson tapes, practicing on my own, and asking my W to practice at least weekly). The interesting thing is that even with her lack of validation, she still expects a level of skill and improvement from week to week. I'll let her decide what to do about rescheduling a future lesson. We have seven left with this studio.
I'm starting to get results from the author's concepts and perspective on self-validated intimacy. It breaks patterns of passive-aggressiveness, holding onto resentment, and judgment towards my W. This means we're breaking and reducing destructive patterns in the R.
CL
CL,
Still dancing? It's been a while
Doc
Doc,
Yes, my W and I are still dancing. It's not perfect, and we do fuss a lot, and my W doesn't always validate my efforts, but the positives outweigh the negatives. We're going on over two years with our current ballroom studio.
CL
I get plenty of practice with self-validated intimacy--holding onto myself when my W is not validating me for whatever reason (lack of sleep, anxiety, something else). She didn't get up in time for class on Friday, so was complaining that I once again haven't been a good enough dance partner over the years (failure to retain moves, failure to practice enough, and so on). I chose to attend the lesson by myself, for my own benefit. She came late and wasn't herself for most of the evening. Her sleep schedule is inconsistent. I tolerated my dances with my W, who picked at me for any flaw she could find. I danced with a lot of women, who validated my skills. I was considering possibly suggesting to her that we not renew for another year with the studio if she's that unhappy with our progress. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I'll need to remember that what's important to me is also a part of that decision.
I'm trying hard not to get overly worked up when she's irritable, not validating, or provocative. I'm not immune to it, but I'm getting better. I also try to realize there's more going on that's beyond me, so try not to take it personally.
I keep thinking about how the author of Passionate Marriage states that intimacy is not always comfortable.
CL
CL,
Just remember, that "holding onto oneself" and "self-validating" doesn't mean "no boundary-setting." You need to mix your self-validation and self-soothing with an occasional reminder to your wife that you're not going to put up with her CB (crap behavior), in my opinion.
Starsky
Just remember, that "holding onto oneself" and "self-validating" doesn't mean "no boundary-setting." You need to mix your self-validation and self-soothing with an occasional reminder to your wife that you're not going to put up with her CB (crap behavior), in my opinion.
Starsky
I think self-validation is boundary-setting, because you're speaking-up and holding onto what's important to you, respectfully reminding my W of that, and then behaving consistently with that. I chose to attend the lesson without my W, because I didn't want to miss the opportunity to miss new moves, because she failed to get up on time. She was running late, was taking it out on me. I chose not to stay and participate. I had a great time, and she had to drive herself. My fear with a confrontive approach, is that it will escalate a situation, not get the result I'm looking for, and put her focus on me.
Last night, when our teachers cancelled our dance party, I spoke up and told her I was not interested in going for another late evening of dancing. There was a 10PM dance she was proposing. We were out till 1AM the night before at two venues. She and I took a day trip downtown to a local food market, and had a great time eating ethnic food, and buying some items for home. It lifts her spirits to eat well and have food at home to eat and cook. I suggested we cook some of the items, instead of going out. We had a nice evening together. I think the food market trip will become something regular, as it gets us out of our routines, and allows us to nurture our budding interest in cooking. I think need we to diversify activities beyond dancing, which can become a chore with lessons and practice.
CL
I continue to practice the concepts from "The Passionate Marriage." It's about learning to be close to someone while holdling onto oneself. It points out how my means of soothing myself was to maintain distance, and we know the problems that causes in a M. I've begun breaking that longstanding pattern. We seem to be getting along for the most part.
The next step is "Hugging While Relaxed." I'm not a hugger in general and probably hold a hug for about a second with people. He recommends increasing the duration of hugs with one's spouse and others. This will pave the way for improved sex.
I've resumed church attendance this year. I've been exploring Christian spirituality. I consider seeking God as helping me to aspire to be the finest version of who I can be on a daily basis.
My W and I have been visiting the downtown farmer's market weekly, which has improved both of our moods. My W cooks more often, and the refrigerator is more often filled with an array of food.
CL
Good to hear from you, CL, and get an update on how you're applying the PM concepts. Try to post more often!
Starsky
The theme of my W's feedback during conflict is that I don't give enough praise, and that I'm too fussy and critical. She gets frustrated cooking for me because I'm too honest about what I think, or look for what I don't like and don't appreciate the person who did the cooking. She threatens to quit cooking for me.
I'm also trying to hold onto myself with our dancing conflict. I prefer ballroom and she prefers salsa. They are two different dance communities. The ballroom community is more couple oriented and the men are less skilled. The salsa community is more open to mixing, so my W gets more dances. I think we need both communities to nourish our dance partnership. She threatens to quit ballroom when she has a slow night. I'm applying the concept of "hold onto yourself", doing what I can to keep her happy at the ballroom events, and giving her space to work some of it out on her own, rather than feeling like it's completely my responsibility to solve her problems. A change I've made is to agree to go to late night Salsa venues on the weekends, even after an evening of ballroom dancing.
She has been cooking for me more often, which I think is a good sign that the R is improving. We both have been pushing ourselves more often to get out to constructive activies, even when we're tired or have been fussing, and have been rewarded everytime.
CL
The theme of my W's feedback during conflict is that I don't give enough praise
Did we not speak about words of affirmation being one of her love languages? I believe we agreed this is the case and here, she is even telling you as much.
Speak her love language and things will improve.
Fussing continues around dancing, yet it seems like we're striving for connection. She got upset with me last night at the ballroom venue, because I wasn't being receptive to her feedback. I admit that I'm not always open to it. She stated that I wasn't treating her well so left the event about an hour into it to get a bite to eat. I chose to "hold onto myself" and stayed to finish the evening. I told her that I needed to stay for a minimum of two hours to get enough instruction, practice and our money's worth. It also keeps her from abruptly ending the evening on a whim and balances her power.
When we got home later that night, she told me that our partnership is more important to her than dancing with other people. I've never heard this before. My impression was that she rated her evenings by the number of dances she got. She wants to be able to give me feedback, and for me to be responsive to that. Now that she's made that clear, it's up to me to figure out how to work with it.
I've told her that I have to practice ballroom dancing at least weekly, otherwise it's a waste of time and money to take lessons. She can make whatever arrangements she wants to make that evening work for her (separate cars, take a night off). I go to Salsa venues two nights per week with her. I'm starting to reconnect with that communiity, and improve my Salsa. I want to maintain a balance between Salsa and ballroom, and it's only going to happen if I take the lead.
CL
Fussing continues around dancing, yet it seems like we're striving for connection. She got upset with me last night at the ballroom venue, because I wasn't being receptive to her feedback. I admit that I'm not always open to it. She stated that I wasn't treating her well so left the event about an hour into it to get a bite to eat. I chose to "hold onto myself" and stayed to finish the evening. I told her that I needed to stay for a minimum of two hours to get enough instruction, practice and our money's worth. It also keeps her from abruptly ending the evening on a whim and balances her power.
When we got home later that night, she told me that our partnership is more important to her than dancing with other people. I've never heard this before. My impression was that she rated her evenings by the number of dances she got. She wants to be able to give me feedback, and for me to be responsive to that. Now that she's made that clear, it's up to me to figure out how to work with it.
I've told her that I have to practice ballroom dancing at least weekly, otherwise it's a waste of time and money to take lessons. She can make whatever arrangements she wants to make that evening work for her (separate cars, take a night off). I go to Salsa venues two nights per week with her. I'm starting to reconnect with that communiity, and improve my Salsa. I want to maintain a balance between Salsa and ballroom, and it's only going to happen if I take the lead.
CL
CL, this is just about the strongest post I've ever read from you. Kind (but firm) boundary-setting, living your own life and not allowing your wife's "fussiness" to ruin your evening and sidetrack your goals, yet maintain good communication with her without "eggshell walking."
Nicely done, sir!!!
Starsky
P.S. I bet she found the way you handled the evening very
attractive.
My W told me the other day that I'm her favorite person to dance with. I was surprised by this, as she complains a great deal if she doesn't get asked to dance much when we're out socially. My impression is that my W keeps intimate thoughts to herself, and lets them out like a drop of water. I'm the same way, which partially explains the pace of our Piecing phase.
She was complaining about our weekly ballroom venue. I told her that I have to practice ballroom dancing at least weekly. It doesn't matter where. I gave her the option of an alternative venue or staying at home, while I went out to practice. When it came time to make a decision, she chose to stay at our current venue, stating that she would make the best of it. I was willing to go without her, and she knew it.
She is taking steps to improve her eating habits. She is probably 20 pounds overweight. She is going to start recording what she eats. I could tell she's serious about addressing this problem. She has been researching calories and fat grams. She also has begun going with me weekly to Pilates or Yoga.
I keep practicing the "Holding onto Yourself" concept. It releases me from being overly involved in her problems, and forces her to struggle and problem-solve. Her struggling has moved her towards being proactive with certain problem situations--not getting enough guys to ask her to dance, improving her eating habits.
CL
Last night was rough at our monthly ballroom venue. My W chose to reluctantly go, though I gave her the option of staying home. I went to three Salsa venues during the week, so felt that it was fair that I had my one night of ballroom to practice and network. I think she's self-concious and intimidated by good male ballroom dancers. I point out the better male dancers, yet she won't ask them to dance. At the end of the evening, she complains that "no one" asks her to dance. When we danced together, she would pick at me. I now know that I'm doing just fine, and that her comments aren't always objective.
I can only do so much to help her. Quitting ballroom dancing isn't the answer. If we quit ballroom dancing, we'd have to find another hobby to replaceit with. Participating in life is a struggle. I think any joint activity we would do would be a struggle in some form. I can see why many people prefer to compete with a professional than social dance with their partner. It's inherently conflictual. I think the most loving thing you can do for your W is sometimes to allow them to struggle, while you hold onto yourself.
I'll talk to her today, and see where she's at. We bought another year's worth of lessons, so she stated her commitment to keep working on ballroom dancing. I think my expectation of ballroom dancing at a venue weekly is realistic. I'm not always in the best of frame of mind when she wants to go Salsa dancing, and I'd rather take the night off. I push thru and am usually glad I did.
CL
When I came home from work yesterday, I asked my W her intent on whether she was going to our weekly ballroom venue or not. She said that she was tired of that particular venue. I said that I could go alone and come back to get her to go out later in the evening, as I would be done by 9PM. She got angry, stating I preferred to dance with others, rather than her. I held onto myself and reminded her that we had invested a lot of time and money to not practice our ballroom dancing on a large floor at least weekly. Not practicing was not an option for me. Not all dances can be practiced at home. I gave her the option of going to a different venue that evening, or staying home while I go to our regular venue. I validated her frustration about lack of qualtiy men to dance with at our usual venue. Maybe it was time to try a different place.
We travelled 25 miles to a different venue on the other side of town. We met a teacher whose emphasis is on social dancing, and has no interest in ballroom competitions (same as us). He gave us an introductory private lesson, and sold us an introductory package for a great deal. We'll give his studio a try. We're trying to find a combinations of studios and venues with committed social ballroom dancers to network with. Our studio is great for private and group instruction, but their emphasis is ballroom competitons, so their students aren't interested in social dancing.
What could have been a difficult evening, turned out great due to my holding onto what is important for me, and my W's willingness to explore.
CL
Once a week, I ask my W to practice so that we can retain new material. My shoulders were tight at our last practice session. I mentioned this to my W, and she began to massage them. She said to ask her for a massage anytime.
CL
That is HUGE! It does seem that your wife has moved in your direction in the last few months. That is clearly an effort on her part to be physical with you.
I suggest you ask her for a shoulder massage a few times. This is a nice way to have some intimacy, that can be pleasant and perhaps even slightly sexual but without the expectations of performance and the anxieties that come with it. Perhaps you offer to massage her also. This a fabulous way to gently work up to being sexual and solving one of the biggest issues facing you two.
That is HUGE! It does seem that your wife has moved in your direction in the last few months. That is clearly an effort on her part to be physical with you.
I suggest you ask her for a shoulder massage a few times. This is a nice way to have some intimacy, that can be pleasant and perhaps even slightly sexual but without the expectations of performance and the anxieties that come with it. Perhaps you offer to massage her also. This a fabulous way to gently work up to being sexual and solving one of the biggest issues facing you two.
I agree!
Starsky
Last night was rough. We returned to the ballroom venue we had taken a break from for several weeks. My W takes it personally that men aren't lining up to dance with her. She has an easier time in the Salsa community. We've explored other dance studios to give her options. We found a small class that we enjoy, even though it's a 1/2 hour from home. I don't know what else to do for her, short of quitting ballroom dancing. I don't think that's a solution, because than we would only be meeting her needs in the partnership. If she wanted to quit, I wouldn't stop her.
I let her mood get to me last night on the way to the Salsa venue. I couldn't get into the spirit of Salsa and sat most of the night. We also couldn't find her shoe, so I drove back to the other studio to retrieve it. I got verbally punished for it. I stepped outside to excuse myself, as I wasn't dancing. She then blasted me for forgetting my meal ticket. The evening spiraled, and I couldn't seem to stop it. At home, she threw the kitchen sink at me, bringing up a host of issues. I stayed outside with my dog, and slept in the guest room.
Ballroom dancing is supposed to be fun. I need to get out and practice socially, otherwise what's the point of taking dance lessons? We can't find a venue that works for her. Classes go fine, practice time is fine, Salsa venues are fine. Ballroom venues where she has to put effort into networking, and where she's fussy about the quality of dancers, doesn't work.
I'm not forcing her to be a ballroom dancer. I would be disappointed, but realize I can't force involvement in a hobby. I've heard for years about her dream to be a ballroom dancer. She can quit at any time, or not renew lessons, or limit the amount of or type of involvement. It seems reasonable to me, that if she's a dance partner with me, than she needs to compromise with me regarding balancing Salsa and ballroom dancing. I'm still looking for the formula that works for both of us.
CL
CL,
You can read all the books in the world, and try all the techniques in the world, but sometimes as we used to like to say around here "Crap behavior is crap behavior," and you have to call your wife on it.
Women test men -- period. It's the way of nature. And your wife loses more attraction for you when you fail these tests. STAND UP TO HER when she starts with the CB!!! Every time you've done it, she's responded positively, either immediately or perhaps the next day.
Stop hiding outside with the dog, and in the guest room!
Starsky
She's so good at blaming, it makes me wonder if I did something wrong. I found out today she was upset because I ate leftover fruit from last night at the dance. She intended to have it for herself, but failed to tell me her intentions. She told me to have some in front of our friends, and then scolds me afterwards for not reading her mind. I'm guessing there's more going on than this, which probably has nothing to do with me. I told her today calmly, that I can't read her mind, and that she should have told me she would have liked the fruit for later. She wanted to be seen as generous, but didn't want me to eat the fruit.
I went swimming this morning, to release some stress and get out of the house. I now have to decide whether or not to go to a joint private lesson. I guess staying home would be a form of hiding. I'll go and see how it goes. If it gets too out of hand, I can leave the lesson. Hopefully, the teacher will set limits as-needed.
Her part-time cooking job is ending this summer. She will now have to enter the job market. I think she's afraid. I do think a part-time job is in her best interests. She's used the one day cooking job, with her sister as employer as a way to procrastinate from job-hunting. I think a job has to be better than sleeping in every day, sitting at her computer, and not going out until the evening, most of the time.
CL
I went to the private dance lesson without my W. She chose not to go, threatening to take separate lessons from this point on (we've been there before). The studio was empty when I arrived, which is just as well, as I wanted to cancel anyway. I replaced the fruit, even though I don't think I did anything wrong last night.
She states that I'm negative to be around, that I take out my problems on her, that I create messes for her, that I don't take out the trash consistently, and that I'm not grateful enough when she cooks. I thought I made a fuss when she cooked on Thursday. I guess it wasn't enough of one. I'm bewildered by her comments, so will let time pass, and see if clarity increases. I guess I'm on my own tonight, so may take the dog to the dog park, or a path in a park. I'll go to church tomorrow, and probably swimming again.
CL
I'm guessing there's more going on than this, which probably has nothing to do with me.
In my opinion, it's not about the fruit, but it's very definitely about you. Re-read my last post, and ask a few women to join your thread and see what they say.
Starsky
In my opinion, it's not about the fruit, but it's very definitely about you.
Starsky
We stayed in last night, which was a welcome break from dancing and being together. She was on the phone complaining about me to her mother. I did apologize for losing her shoe (which I retrieved later). I could have taken better care of checking to make sure we had everything before we left, as her shoes were in my bag. It seems like the unspoken rule is she's allowed to be be moody and say what she wants, but I'm supposed to be pleasant no matter what.
I still think that if we're going to be dance partners, than my needs are important too. If we're going to take ballroom lessons, than I have to practice socially to improve and maintain the skills. She will need, for two hours per week, make the best of a social situation. I am willing to explore other venues to find one that fits her better, but simply stopping social practice is not an option. She always has the option of saying she no longer wants to take ballroom lessons, in which case it becomes a casual hobby, with no practice expectations. My mistake was allowing her mood to overly influence me. I was frustrated because she wasn't having a good time at the ballroom venue.
We talked somewhat about the evening, but the focus was on me. It was about how my behavior made her evening more difficult, and my failures throughout the evening. I gave myself space from the R, took the dog for a walk, and went to bed on-time.
I need to work on not being reactive to her moods, allowing things to be imperfect, and going with the flow of events, even when they're unpleasant. I'm working on it. I go to church weekly, and read religious books to help me find the right state of mind, so that I don't go back to old patterns.
CL
My mistake was allowing her mood to overly influence me. I was frustrated because she wasn't having a good time at the ballroom venue.
We talked somewhat about the evening, but the focus was on me. It was about how my behavior made her evening more difficult, and my failures throughout the evening. I gave myself space from the R, took the dog for a walk, and went to bed on-time.
I need to work on not being reactive to her moods, allowing things to be imperfect, and going with the flow of events, even when they're unpleasant. I'm working on it. I go to church weekly, and read religious books to help me find the right state of mind, so that I don't go back to old patterns.
CL
CL, I disagree. Yes, there are times when that is good advice, and those of us who are "sensitive types" have to constantly work on that. And there are SOME situations with your wife where yeah, it's a question of not letting her mood affect you.
However, it's not just her MOODS, in my opinion -- it's her BEHAVIOR -- toward YOU -- when she is IN one of her moods. Much of it is what I call "crap behavior" (CB), and I think more than that they are TESTS, and that after some good successes in this area you're starting to fail them again.
I think you should try to make a distinction between her just being in a MOOD -- and mostly keeping that to herself (pouting, brooding, etc.) -- and her BEHAVIOR TOWARD YOU when she is in a mood (scolding, belittling you to others (like her mother), hurtful comments, etc.
Do you see the distinction?
Starsky
However, it's not just her MOODS, in my opinion -- it's her BEHAVIOR -- toward YOU -- when she is IN one of her moods.
I think you should try to make a distinction between her just being in a MOOD -- and mostly keeping that to herself (pouting, brooding, etc.) -- and her BEHAVIOR TOWARD YOU when she is in a mood (scolding, belittling you to others (like her mother), hurtful comments, etc.
Do you see the distinction?
Starsky
Yes, I see the distinction. As far as Friday night, a behavior I would point out to her would be when she called me a deadbeat at the dance venue, because I failed to turn in a meal ticket. Everything else, I would call tolerating her mood, or not worth pointing out.
I have to remember that it's important sometimes for me to speak up, even when it's not validated by my W. I'm holding onto myself in the ballroom dance area. If we have further conversation on Friday night, I will remind her that she called me a deadbeat, and that I thought it was harsh for simply failing to turn in a ticket. I will leave it at that, feeling like I've said my piece.
My W is a verbal bully sometimes. In the past I've tolerated it, and allowed it to overly affect me, and would suffer in silence. I bought into her interpretations, that somehow I was failing as a H. I now need to at least speak up, not allow her to control the story, and let her know how I see things.
Thanks. I feel like I'm getting more clarity on the situation, and can make better choices on how to repond to today.
CL
Hi Concerned Listener - I so admire your consistent and patient journey to understanding yourself and taking responsiblity for your reality and your happiness. I think you're great.
I was just reading something on Accuray's thread about "admiration" and was contemplating the difference between "words of affirmation" used commonly around here as associated with Chapman - The 5 Love Languages, and "admiration" ... and I thought it was a really good point and a subtle, but extremely important difference, particularly in relation to feeling safe enough in a relationship to truely open yourself to your partner.
I was thinking about it from the woman's perspective, but I suspect there is really no difference, see when a woman feels complete
adoration by her partner, when she knows, because he tells her in words and actions that he loves how she looks, he adores how she does a particular thing, that the annoying little habits she has are adorable and deliciously desirable because they are her annoying little habits - the adoration provides an environment where a woman can completely be herself, regardless of the social and cultural norms she brings as baggage. I was reflecting that it has been my experience, that my partners who have had the ability to really verbalise and demonstrate that level of admiration for me - have certainly had the best of me. Those were the relationships where I left my baggage at the door and was able to be my true emotional and sexual self.
Words of affirmation are nice "You're a great dancer and I love it when I feel your hand in the small of my back as we are counting in to a waltz - I'm so glad we make the time to do this together" ... Admiration is amazing (leaning in to whisper in your ear) "you are the most desirable man in this room, and I'm the one who is going home with you tonight where I plan to show you how much I love having your in my life." (lifting left hand from shoulder to gently brush your ear and a subtle wink).
You have to be pretty ballsy and feel pretty safe to talk to someone with that level of abandonment (or be a complete sociopath/player/award winning actor!). It's that level of connection then that leads to the emotional intimacy that's required to develop the kind of adult connection we all crave.
Now, the thing is, in abusive relationships, or those where the partners don't have the skills to verbalise or demonstrate their admiration, it's difficult to reach that level of openess. You need trust to get there. If your experience in the relationship is that your partner will blame and punish you for everything that goes wrong in their life, regardless of if it had anything to do with you or not - it's absolutely impossible to get there.
The more I read, the clearer it becomes that your wife does exhibit abusive behaviours towards you - and perhaps she always has. Ask yourself the following questions that are sometimes used as generic indicators of verbal & emotional abuse against men. (WHO 2004)
Does your wife get upset at things you say that you consider just normal conversation?
Are you confused about what you can say to your wife because you never know what will upset her?
Does your wife treat you like a child and only “let” you do certain things of which she approves?
Do you avoid activities when your wife is around because you fear she will criticize you or disapprove?
Does your wife continually criticize who your are, what your do, your clothing, possessions, opinions, and decisions?
Do you feel like you are always at fault and can never do anything right?
Does you wife tell you she is smart and knowledgeable and you are dumb and stupid?
Do you feel that you just can’t make smart decisions and you mentally beat yourself up when you do something that your wife calls stupid?
Does your wife threaten you with physical harm?
Have you ever feared being around your wife?
Has your wife told you to get out, or actually kicked you out of the house, only “allowing” you back on her terms?
Do you feel like you can only stay with your wife’s approval and that your wife is in control of whether you stay together?
Does your wife ridicule your children and blame you for their terrible upbringing?
Are you afraid to even mention your children because you know everything they do which your wife disapproves of will be “your fault?”
Does your wife insult or make fun of your friends and family?
Do you feel uncomfortable talking with your wife about your friends and family, or having them around your wife?
Does your wife read your mail and e-mails?
Are you always cautious about what you write for fear that your wife might read it and get angry?
Is your wife extremely jealous and accuse you of flirting with any female you happen to speak to or compliment?
Have you changed your behavior around women to the point where you feel like you are actually being rude to them in order not to anger your wife?
Does your wife continually doubt your fidelity and accuse you of having girlfriends?
Are you afraid of even mentioning females in conversation because you fear your wife will somehow turn them into your "girlfriends?”
Is your wife jealous of your job, hobbies, interests, and even your pet?
Do you avoid discussing your job, hobbies, interests, and pets because you know your wife will probably get angry about them?
Does you wife tell you that she will always “know” what ever you do when you are not with her, insinuating she has special powers, or friends who will report on you?
Do you avoid doing certain innocent activities while you are away from your wife because you are afraid she may hear about it and turn it into something that angers her?
Does your wife demand to know what you do and where you are all the time?
Do you rush home from work, or other activities, for fear that your wife will be angry because you arrived home late?
Does your wife accuse you of no intimacy while she is the one who is seldom or never intimate?
Do you feel like you are extremely lucky whenever your wife decides to have an intimate moment; a gentle hug, a snuggle, a kiss, or even more?
Does your wife constantly criticize the way you do things, either verbally or with gestures and facial expressions?
Do you feel inadequate doing things you used to do rather well?
Does you wife constantly demand that you do more, make more money, acquire more things for her, take her more places, or satisfy more of her needs?
Do you feel like you can never do enough and you are constantly exhausted with no way of ever catching up?
Does your wife criticize the foods that you eat, or don't eat?
Are you uncomfortable eating around your wife?
Does your wife criticize you for trying to be healthy while she is always sickly and needs attention?
Have you changed from a healthy lifestyle to an unhealthy one because you do not want to anger your wife?
Does your wife blame you for her illnesses or ailments?
Do you sometimes feel like you are the cause of her physical illnesses or ailments?
Has your wife created an intolerable amount of stress in your life?
Do you suffer from physical illness or mental confusion that you cannot connect to any known cause?
Does your wife criticize the way you spend money?
Do you feel like you can only buy things if your wife approves?
Does your wife build up her religious and moral convictions while criticizing yours?
Do you sometimes feel like your spiritual life and morality are lacking and you just are not a very good person?
Does your wife call you derogatory names?
Do you sometimes feel the derogatory names might be true?
Does your wife blame you for everything that goes wrong?
Do you feel like you can never do anything right, or at least well enough to please your wife?
Does your wife threaten to punish you if you misbehave?
Do you fear what your wife might do to you if you do not behave in a manner in which she approves?
Does your wife justify her abusive behavior by saying that she only does it because she loves you?
Do you feel like you live in a very conditional relationship, where if you are good then your wife will love you?
Does your wife accuse you of lying when you know you are absolutely telling the truth?
Do you feel uncomfortable in normal conversation with your wife, friends and family because you fear that your wife will accuse you of lying?
Does your wife accuse you of being disloyal because you did not take up for her?
Are you confused as to why your wife says you are disloyal since you feel like you always support her?
Does your wife always need to “get credit” for everything because everything is always her idea and she always knows what’s best?
Do you hesitate to tell your wife about your new ideas or things you hear because she will say that she told you that long ago, and that you never listen to her because you always need to hear it from someone else?
Does your wife turn normal conversations into opportunities to criticize you and blame you for things from the past?
Do you hesitate to have conversations with your wife because you know they will end up in her criticizing or blaming you for something that has long past?
Does your wife constantly bring up things you did in the past that angered her and accuse you of never learning from your mistakes?
Do you feel like you just can’t win no matter how you try to be the best husband possible?
Does your wife demand that you stay with her because you are obligated or because you have nowhere else to go?
Do you feel trapped in this relationship because you fear what she will do if you leave?
Has your wife threatened suicide, or other bodily harm, if you leave her?
Are you afraid of leaving your abusive wife because you would feel responsible if she did harm herself?
Does your wife treat you like you are less than her, or like you are a child?
Do you feel like a child living in fear of a domineering parent?
Does your wife accuse you of not being the man you were when she first married you?
Do you feel like less of a man than you felt when you first got married?
If you answered Yes to some of those indicators, until you guys deal with the behaviour, until you decide what level of behaviour you are prepared to tolerate, it may not be possible for you to feel safe to open yourself to the true emotional and sexual intimacy you are seeking. Know what I mean?
Whew ... that was a ramble ... it took me a while to get there ...
Keep at it CL. You are learning to know yourself and that is truely admirable.
Hi Concerned Listener -
If your experience in the relationship is that your partner will blame and punish you for everything that goes wrong in their life, regardless of if it had anything to do with you or not - it's absolutely impossible to get there.
The more I read, the clearer it becomes that your wife does exhibit abusive behaviours towards you - and perhaps she always has.
I decided last weekend that I would not "walk on eggshells" around her for two days. We stayed apart for one day. I decided one day was enough. I proposed we have an active day, and she agreed. We talked about the events of the forgotten shoe, and meal ticket. I told her I didn't appreciate being called a deadbeat over a meal ticket issue. We got back on track that day, and have been fine ever since.
I'm getting clarity regarding the role I have to play with my W--a combination of strength and kindness. I think simply speaking up more, when I'm upset with her comments, rather than tolerating her sharp comments will help me and us to move things forward.
Thanks for the encouragement, Walking.
CL
Right on my friend!
I think you should not "walk on eggshells" around her for all your days. She tests you constantly and you passed this test. She wants a man, I repeat a man, who can handle her. Quiet strength and kindness is a winning combination. You will find it works pretty much everywhere.
She wants a man, I repeat a man, who can handle her. Quiet strength and kindness is a winning combination. You will find it works pretty much everywhere.
DNO,
Well stated.
CL
A week ago my W was yelling at me because I didn't throw out a leftover in the refrigerator quickly enough for her. I started to go over to get it, and then I stopped. She continued to yell. I stared at the food item, refusing to go any further. She got it herself.
I think one of the upcoming tests will be around finances and her working. Her part-time job will end around Labor Day. Her sister, who is going thru a D, is not in a position to pay her anymore to prepare family meals for them. This job served as a buffer when my W lost her other job about two years ago. It's allowed her to take some time off from the world of work, but now I think she uses it to avoid finding another position. The job accounts for about 1/3 of our income, so it will need to be replaced. I'm hoping she will be eligible for unemployment benefits.
I haven't said anything about it yet to her. I was hoping she would take the initiative and begin looking for work, but that hasn't happened. In my opinion another part-time job would be in her best interests. I think she needs more structure in her life. She stays up all night, and spends the day sleeping. Her main activities are with me when I get home from work and on the weekends. She gets a visit from her mother weekly.
I'm feeling a need to influence the situation and push her to do something, but my guess that is not the best approach.
CL
Man, what is it with your wife and leftovers??
OPPORTUNITY MISSED to call her on more of her crap behavior, CL. She ALWAYS responds positively when you do!!!
Starsky
A week ago my W was yelling at me because I didn't throw out a leftover in the refrigerator quickly enough for her. I started to go over to get it, and then I stopped. She continued to yell. I stared at the food item, refusing to go any further. She got it herself.
I think one of the upcoming tests will be around finances and her working. Her part-time job will end around Labor Day. Her sister, who is going thru a D, is not in a position to pay her anymore to prepare family meals for them. This job served as a buffer when my W lost her other job about two years ago. It's allowed her to take some time off from the world of work, but now I think she uses it to avoid finding another position. The job accounts for about 1/3 of our income, so it will need to be replaced. I'm hoping she will be eligible for unemployment benefits.
I haven't said anything about it yet to her. I was hoping she would take the initiative and begin looking for work, but that hasn't happened. In my opinion another part-time job would be in her best interests. I think she needs more structure in her life. She stays up all night, and spends the day sleeping. Her main activities are with me when I get home from work and on the weekends. She gets a visit from her mother weekly.
I'm feeling a need to influence the situation and push her to do something, but my guess that is not the best approach.
CL
And you are probably right.
So--Options:
1) Talking = Power Packaging = discerning what is important TO HER. What things influence her?
---Will ' Calling her on her Crap', as Starsky suggests...be effective (shock value, because you don't do this) OR will it be a cheeseless tunnel/aka, more of the same?
2)DO Something different: what can you DO or STOP DOING that would influence her to find some full or part-time work?
***
What are YOUR thoughts?
db,
I'm not suggesting that CL do this for "shock value." I'm doing it because:
a) it represents a "180" from his normally passive "just-grin-and-bear-it" ways; and
b) it's proven effective with his wife in the past. She responds positively to him each time he is firmer with her and doesn't let her walk all over it.
Did you read his backstory? Those of us who have been with CL from the beginning have been trying to encourage him to be more leading with his wife.
Starsky
2)DO Something different: what can you DO or STOP DOING that would influence her to find some full or part-time work?
***
What are YOUR thoughts?
I think I need to take the lead as suggested. If I wait for my W to take the initiative to look for work, I'll be waiting for weeks or months. I can start looking for jobs for her, and when I find a good lead, let her know. I will then encourage her to apply for it. The idea is to get some movement towards finding a job, with me taking the initial steps. This has worked in the past. Her sister has taken on the role of looking for work for her, but is not in a position at this time to help her. I'll need to step up.
CL
I haven't had time to look for ads for my W. I'll probably have more time once her part-time job ends. I'm not going to openly fret about it. I'll have faith that she will find a position that she enjoys, and that financial issues will be resolved. I will need to take the lead and be the spark that gets her started looking. I'll get to it when I can.
I came home from work on the day of our anniversary, and asked her if she wanted to go to our favorite Italian restaurant, that we get to maybe 1-2 times per year. I ordered Filet Mignon and my W had some seafood dish. She buzzed about the meal for days.
She keeps percolating ideas about a beach vacation. I told her about my concerns about taking a vacation, when she's going to be unemployed in six weeks. She keeps talking about it, so she must really need one. We'll keep this one shorter than our usual 10-day Puerto Rico trip, and maybe end up in Florida for a week. I said my piece, and don't have any better ideas, so will compromise on the length and destination of the vacation, and hold off a longer trip for the winter.
CL
I'm letting my W percolate ideas about a vacation. We haven't had one in eight months. My preference would be to wait until she's employed. It's not worth drawing swords over. I'll put my energy into keeping it manageable--destination, flights, boarding, length of stay.
She shared with me her difficulties with anxiety, and her history with agoraphobia. I think the ending of her part-time cooking job will force her to venture into the world again. She'll procrastinate about job-hunting. I'll need to take the lead and put some structure into job-hunting for her. She should be eligilbe for unemployment benefits.
I'm learning to be more flexible with her imperfections, and less judgmental about them. I'm learning to "loosen my grip" about needing to be in control of her. I'm letting her have her moods and am not being reactive to every comment she makes. Many times she speaks emotionally, with little thought. We continue to get along for the most part.
We continue to be out in the world as a couple. People at our dance studio, and at our Friday night dance venues are incorporating us into their groups. We are making connections individually, and as a couple. The potential for friendships is growing. It helps to be with other couples, as one can see that we all struggle with similar conflicts. I have been attending church for seven months, and read religion and theology daily.
CL
The vacstion plans are falling into place. My W found us a condo on the beach in Puerto Rico. She has been percolating ideas about what to do there. My needs have been met as far as keeping the trip affordable. She would rather go someplace entirely new, but I think she can get her need for new expereiences met on this trip.
She's making no progress with the job hunting. Her part-time job ends around Labor Day. I don't have the energy to be in charge of her job-hunting at this time. I'll let her procrastinate and begin helping once the job ends. We'll have to deal with whatever financial circumstances arise.
We had dinner with an older couple from our studio. My W likes them a lot. She likes people who are genuine. It is helpful to hear that couples struggle in similar ways. We also met a couple at our Friday dance, who have considerable dance experience, and look forward to exchanging partners, and adding them to our dance social network.
I stuck around for the potluck at church last week. I've been attending this church since the beginning of the year. I sat by myself at a table, and a young adult came over to introduce himself. We discovered that he's studying to be in a profession similar to what I'm in.
The connection in both our lives is increasing thanks to the effort we put into it. It makes being together so much easier, and may shorten the leap back into intimacy. At this point physical intimacy is still something I think about, but still perceive it as threatening and risky.
CL
The connection in both our lives is increasing thanks to the effort we put into it. It makes being together so much easier, and may shorten the leap back into intimacy. At this point physical intimacy is still something I think about, but still perceive it as threatening and risky.
I understand, CL. And I am by no means an expert in the sex department myself, being in a long-term SSM as I have been. However, unlike my wife, I do sense that yours does crave more initimacy, and I'd just like you to considering something as you go forward:
Taking TOO long to rebuild this part of your relationship ALSO is "risky." In fact, I think it's more risky than trying to do it now, considering your two's history.
Starsky
Taking TOO long to rebuild this part of your relationship ALSO is "risky." In fact, I think it's more risky than trying to do it now, considering your two's history.
Starsky [/quote]
Starsky,
I don't have faith yet that physical intimacy can be attained. I have faith that the R can manage the social aspects of being a couple, and develop friendships. This prompts me to continue to invest in the M. I'm getting used to being a couple in a dance community. This involves people getting to know us well. We've never been part of a community that we both valued, as individuals, and as a couple. This is new territory for us. When our M wasn't going well, we weren't out in the world as a couple very much, and developed R's on an individual basis to compensate.
CL
My W and I have been in Puerto Rico since Saturday.This trip is going better than our past ones. I think it's because it's planned to meet both our needs. We're staying in a condo on the beach, in a bustling neighborhood. We're 10-15 minutes from a calm beach. We're across the street from a hotel that plays live music almost every night. We're a short drive from downtown. She's been in a good mood most of the trip. The building is filled with fellow travelers. We were up late last night talking to a friendly fellow from New York City.
We took some risk coming here during hurricane season, but have had two good consecutive beach days, and should get one or two more. There is a tropical storm headed our way, so we'll have to adapt. The only problem so far has been cutting it too close to making our flight.
She massaged my neck last night.
CL
CL,
Are you OK? You haven't posted since going to Puerto Rico and Hurrican Isaac came through just a few days after you posted. Hope all is well!
The tropical storm passed south of the island, so created one rainy, windy evening and day. It was our best trip there. We continue to discover the beaches, activities, restaurants, and venues which are most enjoyable for us. We are planning on going back in the winter.
My W has begun attending a job-hunting support group. She is fearful that she won't find work that she enjoys. I've been giving her space to move forward at her own pace, and will only address concerns about bills as-needed. I do want her to find something she enjoys. I think it's in her best interest to work again. She doesn't manage free time well, having difficulty with creating structure, connection, and routine for herself. She relies on me for that.
She brought up last night (after a few beers) that she is upset because we didn't have children. She's brought this up before. She states that this was a dream of hers. I didn't know this until probably after the separation. I remember her telling me early in the M, that I was too much like her father (critical, distant). She didn't think I was father material. I was ambivalent at the time. I wonder why she came back after the separation, if children were a priority for her? I didn't choose a career with supporting a family in mind. I don't know what to say when she gets on this topic, so I let her vent. It seems like she wanted someone who could financially support her, while she raised children. I don't know why she married me, if this was her intention. I never gave her any indication I wanted children.
We continue to bond with our ballroom dance community. It's the first community, in some time, that we connect to as a couple. This involves people getting to know us on a personal level, including our imperfections.
CL
My W's sibling is helping her with job-hunting. My W has a hard time intitiating and organizing on her own. My W goes over to her house weekly to look at ads, and send out resumes. I know my W has doubts about her ability to find work she can enjoy. Her sibling seems willing to keep her on as a family employee for the cooking job, until she is hired. I think it will be better for their R, to remove the employee-employer aspect of it. I also think it will be better for my W to be out in the world on her own again, and have more structure to her week. I stay on the sidelines, and stay out of it.
I'm enjoying my weekly church experience. I attend most weeks and find the quiet time and sermon vitalizing and centering. I make a point of staying for the monthly potluck, so I can get to know fellow pilgrims. My W is invited, but she prefers to sleep in on Sundays. My W has noticed that I seem happier most days, with lapses of irritability on some days.
I made a point of volunteering during the political season for my candidate. The state I live in was considered a swing state, so it was important to get out the vote. Our neighborhood was well organized. My W and I enjoyed the company of neighbors on election night, watching the results come in.
After some thinking, I announced to my W that we should switch gears and perform the Waltz routine we've been working on for about a month, at a studio venue event in the spring, versus a ballroom competition we intially planned on in January. Ballroom competitions involve a certain culture of people, where there are unspoken standards of dress. I bring this up, because I think performing is important to our development as a dance couple. It keeps us focused and on our toes. Performing at a studio venue will relieve financial and dress expectations. My W agrees. I'll have to lead this project.
CL
Good to hear things are going well! Wow, looking at your sig you've been at this a long time!
My W has confronted me on my lapse into being irritable when I'm with her. She said that she misses me when I was going thru a recent phase when I was smiling and laughing. This is probably a primary factor that led to our S almost ten years ago. I've been going to church for about a year, and find this a good tool to counter this problem. I get too caught up in my head with problems, and fall back into a rut. I also get lazy about being a good partner when I'm with her and carry my stress into our time together.
My W found a PT job. It's accounting type work, which is not her favorite, but it's close to home, and she's treated well by her supervisor, so it will do for now. I'm so happy to see her break her own rut, of being dependent on her sibling for family employment, and working one day per week. Her ending her family job will free up our weekends for ourselves--more time for recreation and taking care of the home.
CL
Letting things outside of my M affect my behavior with my W and family was something that was a big problem for me before my S too.
And even though it is one of the things that I have worked on and feel that I'm MUCH better about, I can also see it being an ongoing concern now.
Personally, I just make the issue one that I think about a lot. I keep it in the forefront of my mind and often make a conscious effort to put those extraneous things aside when I'm with my W.
It's all about continuing to recognize our shortcomings and continuing to work on them.
Remember, we are all a work in progress. Our work on ourselves is never done. And there are things about each of us, that there needs to be a conscious effort to keep at bay.
Remember the DB strategies of 'acting as if' and 'faking it until you make it'. I often think of, and use, these things when I am in a bad mood because of something that has nothing to do with my M.
Just keep working at it. That's the most important thing.
Denver,
Thanks for stopping by. I'm a terrible actor. It's better for me to maintain my moods on a daily basis, and take care of myself. I have a temperament where I'm sensitive, moody, introverted, and prone to being overstimulated. I have to set boundaries for myself, and maintain activities that keep me from being in my head too much.
CL
My W began a trial of Strattera for ADHD. She brought the issue up to her psychiatrist, and he agreed to give her a trial of medication. He felt badly for not identifying this sooner. Her sister raised the issue, and I followed-up by giving her an informal test. She clearly fit the criteria. The medicine is very slightly slurring her speech, so she isn't taking the full day's dosage, and will see if this subsides. She talks slower on the medication, and doesn't flip out over minor things like she usually does. She said she doesn't worry about things as much, on the medication. She follows-up with her psychiatrist in one month.
My W enjoys going to the neighborhood bar for drinks and talking with the locals. I too enjoy getting to meet neighbors. She usually has a little too much to drink, and leaves intoxicated. When she's had too much to drink, she may bring up conflict.
We talked about why we haven't been practicing dance together as much lately. She states that her needs aren't being met. I don't completely understand what she's talking about, except she wants me to be nicer. I approach it with the focus on the skills to improve. She approaches it with the emphasis on the relationship, and how I treat her.
She's agreed to go to the studio early to practice. Practicing at home or at the fitness center doesn't seem to work or happen. I'm going to lead us to getting to the studio early. We'll try a different setting, and see if that helps. We're fine at group classes, and out social dancing. The private practices are the problem area.
CL
I'm finding myself going back into old patterns. I'm making too big a deal out of the not practicing issue. I told her that if we don't practice, there's no point in taking lessons. I went too far, and got a defensive response. I'm trying to control the situation, which isn't going to work. It's hard to know exactly what's going on. It's hard to know how much of this is me, and how much is her. I need to tolerate living in mystery for now, and influence her to go the studio early to practice, and see if a different setting makes a difference. There are many positives associated with our dancing. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not a good strategy. Build on the positives. I can practice on my own in the meantime, go to classes together (another form of practice), and social dance together (another form of practice), until we get back on track with practice.
CL
My W and I went to our weekly ballroom dance venue this week and danced most of the dsnces. She's eased up on her not practicing mindset. I think the trick is to get her out of the house and to a dance studio where there's structure and connection. Private practicing at home suits more my style, and isn't rewarding for her. It's like giving a dog a pill inside of a treat.
Our dance networking efforts have paid off. We made New Year's Eve plans to attend our regular ballroom venue. My W was proactive and asked a lady if we could join her table. We didn't think anything of it, but a week later, the lady approached us to let us know we were invited to join them. My W is very excited to be connected, and has been buzzing about it all weekend.. The lady and her spouse and another couple recently went on a dance cruise. My W is going to eventually ask them if we could join them for the cruise.
I feel like I'm on a ship, sailing away from the troubled times of several years ago. I can still see the land in the distance, but it's getting smaller. I think joining the dance studio three years ago was a turning point. It's been our own version of couple's therapy. Dancing has allowed us to reconnect and increase connection as a couple, and be in the world as a couple.
CL
My W and I went to our weekly dance venue's New Year's Eve party. My W was proactive in getting us to sit at a table with other couples. I'm hoping that connection will continue to increase between my W and I and the other couples, during the year. We learned that other couples at the studio and in the dance community go on cruises together. My W and I want to take a break from vacationing only together. We'll likely join one of these cruises during this year. My W shared that we would like to join their table each week. They seemed surprised that we even had to ask.
This weekend my W's cooking job ends. I'm looking forward to having our Sundays free for ourselves. I've started attending a discussion group at church. I think it will be good for my W to not have her sister as her employer. I also think it will free my W to explore job opportunities that suit her better. She has a PT accounting job for now.
CL
It was a difficult night at the dance venue. My W and I joined our studio at a dance venue that features a high energy type of music, that is more suited to my W. I went with the best of intentions. I danced with my W several times, but apparently it wasn't enough.
My W began telling a story of how about 7 or 8 years ago, she went to a Salsa convention, with another guy and was his roommate. I did allow this to happen at the time. It seemed and probably was platonic. It was wrong. He may not have known we were married. As my W was telling this story, people are looking puzzled and uncomfortable. They were looking at me to do or say something. Fortunately, the music was loud, so only a few people could hear her talking. I spoke in a stern yet respectful voice, and told my W to either change the topic or leave (she was getting ready to go smoke). She stuck her tongue out at me and left. I was embarrassed, which affected the rest of my evening.
Afterwards, she told me to never speak like that again to her. I told her that she shouldn't be telling that story. She didn't see the problem, and thought the story was innocent. I feel good about the way I handled the situation. I was able to stay for the rest of the evening, and make the best of it, even though I wasn't validated by her.
CL
The evening at the nightclub didn't turn out as I had hoped. I was hoping being in a group setting would take care of my W's needs. This particular nightclub isn't my favorite place--hard, pulsing, fast-paced music. She was upset with me that I didn't dance two dances in a row at the beginning. I sat it out, because the song was so fast. She left the room in a huff. I tried to make it up to her, and she seemed to be relaxing into the evening, but then told the story, I suspect to be passive-aggressive. I had no choice, but to set limits with her.
She was angry with me afterwards, and didn't validate my concerns about sharing an inappropriate story. I'll listen for solutions. We've been ballroom dancing mostly, and she misses Salsa dancing. We need to go Salsa dancing more often. Her new job of six weeks isn't working out--a verbally abusive boss. She'll likely leave the position over the next several months.
She began taking Ritalin about a month ago, which she tells me helps her to concentrate during the day at her job. She takes it on the weekends, when she needs to concentrate, for something like cleaning. She does seem easier to live with. Ritalin lasts for 4-6 hours, so she still has her moments, when the medication isn't in her system, or she hasn't taken it.
I think to some extent the conflict is unresolvable, as it has to do with our different personalities. The best we can do is compromise where we spend our time. I think she created expectations of the evening in her mind, without telling me. When I didn't meet them, she punished me, which only made things worse, as I went into waiting for the evening to end, which I found out later infuriated her.
I think today is going to be rough. We have a private lesson at 3PM and were planning on a ballroom dance in the evening. I'll play it by ear, and see what potential there is for partnership. Maybe she could attend the lesson by herself, and we can skip the ballroom venue tonight. Thank goodness I have church and my own connection tomorrow.
CL
There was potential for partnership yesterday. I decided I wasn't going to let the bad evening the night before keep me unbalanced. We went to our bi-weekly private dance lesson. She let me know that too much focus has been on me. She finally spoke up. We splilt the lesson--half is hers, half is my agenda. It worked great. The best lesson we've ever had.
the success of the day carried into the evening. I think dancing is my W's spiritual practice. She gets centered thru movement. It's important that we we have dance activities on a regular basis. Dance activities are a foundation for Piecing for us, and a way to get back on track, when problems get one or both of us unbalanced.
CL
" I tried to make it up to her, and she seemed to be relaxing into the evening, but then told the story, I suspect to be passive-aggressive. I had no choice, but to set limits with her."
I think boundaries would work better in a situation like this. Her behavior is not for you to dictate. She's not a child.
In a boundary, you state what you need and what you will do:
"That story makes me uncomfortable and embarrassed. If you tell it again, I will walk out of the room."
In a boundary, you state what you need and what you will do:
"That story makes me uncomfortable and embarrassed. If you tell it again, I will walk out of the room."
I was thinking quickly on my feet with people looking at me, waiting for me to respond to my W. I agree, that the consequences should have been how I would respond, not telling her what to do. "Please stop telling this story, or else I will take a break from the group and leave." I allowed myself to be unbalanced. It was an overcompensation.
CL
how about, if you start telling that story again, i'll smack you upside the head?
My W has been after me to get a tuxedo for some time. I've procrastinated on it for too long, and finally decided to be proactive over the weekend. I found a tuxedo rental store close by, who was having a sale on tuxedos. I went and got fitted and bought one for less than $200. My W wants me to get one for certain semi-formal dance occasions. I'm looking forward to wearing it. We'll see how it impacts the R.
CL
good for you. men look great in tuxedos and i'm sure she'll be happy that you listened to her. that will be a nice surprise for her.
MOST men look great in tuxedos. I, however, look like a bad game-show host.
But I can't dance like CL!! I'm sure you'll cut a dashing figure, CL!
Starsky
I slipped at our dance formation class this past week. I let someone get to me. There's a woman in the class who sometimes makes inappropriate comments. My W complimented me during class, and the woman stated that was surprised by my W's comments (implying my W doesn't compliment me in class, which is sometimes true). I don't see where she needs to be making commentary about my R. I let the comment bother me, and kept quiet for the rest of the class, when I could have been socializing with the rest of the group.
This is the sort of thing I need to work on--maintaining my balance when people aren't validating or inappropriate. My strength is my heart and sensitivity. I need to combine it with strength. I think I'm making progress, but let others and situations unbalance me. In the past I would stay unbalanced and act as if I were powerless. I'm now recognizing this pattern, and getting my balance back more quickly, but it takes effort, and it's not natural yet.
I know what I need to do. I'm going to have more of a presence at our next formation class. I'm going to accept that I can't control another person's inappropriate comments. I'm also going to work on being less self-conscious about what other people think of my W, her comments, and imperfections revealed to others about our R and past. We have an imperfect past, and it will sometimes reveal itself, or did reveal itself in past actions. I will tolerate this woman, and not be any more than civil to her. I will enjoy the people in class who I can connect with. I will speak up more in group conversations, instead of being so careful about saying something wrong, or worry about not being validated. It's my responsibility to balance myself after being surprised by inappropriate or invalidating comments or actions by others.
CL
I went to see the movie, Lincoln yesterday. This is a man whose strengths I would like to model. He was a man of heart and strength. I've always had the heart, but have needed to learn how to be strong. I've been reading his biography, A. Lincoln, and speeches for the past month. Lincoln had skills that are also necessary in managing a M. One must act from conviction and morals. One must articulate their convictions, values, and thoughts and feelings well, and hold onto them as-needed. One must treat others with dignity and respect. One must be strong and resilient in the face of conflict and adversity. One must be skillful at managing people when opinions inevitably differ.
I've been exploring the areas of American history and biography in my personal reading and have been captivated by Lincoln, the Civil War, and the problem of slavery.
CL
My W has been speaking up more lately. She complained that our dance lessons were too focused on me. We negotiated and now split the hour--we each get to choose an agenda for half the lesson. This has worked out very well. She's working on improving her posture and frame. I've noticed the difference, and people have been paying compliments to both of us. I'm glad she's been working on being more assertive. Dancing has been more enjoyable with her.
She also has begun taking Ritalin. Her sibling advised her to look into it. I found a test and reviewed it with her. She is likely ADD/ADHD. She mentioned it to her psychiatrist who gave her a trial. She's mentioned that it helps her to concentrate during her work day. She has been much easier to live with these past few months. There are much fewer episodes of irritability.
We've been invited to go on a cruise with some dance acquaintances this year. My W would like a change of pace from vacations with just the two of us. This will be more of an adjustment for me, but I'm willing to give it a try.
CL
She also has begun taking Ritalin. Her sibling advised her to look into it. I found a test and reviewed it with her. She is likely ADD/ADHD. She mentioned it to her psychiatrist who gave her a trial. She's mentioned that it helps her to concentrate during her work day. She has been much easier to live with these past few months. There are much fewer episodes of irritability.
How long does the Ritalin take to take effect, CL? I know with some anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds, it can take a few weeks. Just curious.
Starsky
I believe one benefits or not from Ritalin as soon as they start taking it.
CL
My W is looking and acting more confident on the dance floor. We went to our monthly ballroom dance event, and she danced most of the night without needing to depend on me too much.
We had a meetup night with our dance studio last night at a R & B type restaurant with dance floor. She managed to be drunk by the time we got there. She must have been drinking Rum at our dance venue earlier in the evening. It's no fun to dance with her when she's intoxicated, yet she kept asking me. No one else was intoxicated in the group. I was annoyed and embarrassed and felt trapped by the situation.
I did make the best of the situation. I told others she was likely drinking Rum earlier in the evening, and left it at that--no complaining. When she was on the dance floor, I had conversation with others who were there. A friend told me to dance with her, and smile. Rejecting her for dances would only make things worse.
I'm not sure if there were boundaries to be set on my end. Her public intoxication happens maybe once every few months. I'm embarrassed by the situation, but maybe that's my issue.
She wants to join a formation team, with our social dance studio, to be performed in May. We currently are on a formation team with our instructional studio, to be performed in April. I initally told her two teams were too much. She wants to do it. I've been thinking about the importance of giving, so will likely agree, and figure out how to make it work, since it seems important to her. I'm thinking it will be good for us to connect more with our social dance studio, and performance experience is good for us.
CL
My W continues to have problems with her boss. She has a part-time bookkeeping job. She's had the job for three months. The small business is not doing well. The owner has yelled at my W on several occassions. My W has stood up for herself, which stopped the problem for a few weeks. She came home today upset about being yelled at. She asked me if she could tell her boss, that if he yells at her again, he will have to speak to me. When she gets stressed, she turns to beer to calm herself down.
I thought about it. I generally don't like to get in the middle of my W's job issues, but I think an exception can be made here. This job is expendable. I've been thinking about what I would say to him. It probably doesn't matter. I would probably state that I'm concerned about how angry he gets with my W, and ask if there's something I can do to help solve the problem, so she doesn't come home upset. Showing up in support of my W, would make a statement. She might lose the job over it, but that's OK. I agreed that she could tell him her H would get involved, if his behavior continued. She's handled it better than I expected so far, yet the problem continues. We'll see how this plays out.
CL
I think that would be a mistake, CL. I personally would think less of an employee if she had her husband speak to me about HER job situation! I think your wife needs to learn to handle these situations on her own, without you "rescuing" her.
Now, you DO need to validate her, however. "That must really be upsetting to be yelled at like that" and that sort of thing. But I would not personally let my wife put me in the middle of her situation at work -- I think it's unprofessional.
Just my take.
Starsky
I've scaled the plan back. My W and I both agree that it would be unwise for me to speak to her employer. She may say to her employer that her H is not happy about her coming home upset from work. She's hoping my presence at her place of employment, from time to time would be helpful. Her hypothesis is that her employer picks on single women, who don't have spouse's to support them.
CL