Like the title better.
As for her 'babysteps' do they all have to happen? Do they all have to happen in a set time frame? Or will you be ok with one of them?
As for the one about her setting an appointment.
You said she was never good at making good on her word in matters like this. Right?
Well my wife is never on time. This concept of time doesn't seem to exist in her kind some sort of foreign concept like theoretical math. Never has. Likely never will, if she does? I'll be looking for angels blowing trumpets and breaking seals.
If I used her being on time as an example of a babystep?
I'd first have to change the name babystep into something like Godzilla step.
And I'd be setting her up to fail.
Some spots do not change, they may fade... but somethings are too fundamentally instilled.
You know?
jack...that gave me a laugh. My Wife is pretty much the same way with time.
I'm ok with one, two, or all three of them. The only one that I have a timeframe for is the scheduleing counseling one. The only reason I set those babysteps at all was to prevent me from looking for "big" stuff. It's not realistic for her to ask me to move home today or call me and say "hey, I'm naked in bed and all alone..." as much as I'd love that, ain't gonna happen. I need to be realistic in my thinking.
I know what you mean, but this seems like such a big deal....
X
I get it. Your W said she was committed and she wanted to work on things. Now you want her to show you some action. Words without action are well...just words.
You are really look at this as a big action form her and shows that commitment.
I'm kinda in the same spot. My W said she would see an IC. she got the referral. I finally asked her today, "like I was just curious if you made the appt yet."
I think there are ways to bring it up without coming off badly.
I think there are ways to bring it up without coming off badly.
I agree absolutely.
I think you can let them know, that some things are more important (deeds) than others in proving their commitment.
"I really want to know you made that appointment, that would mean more to me than you can imagine."
You know, pretty words, with weight, but no anger.
Nice TM exchange with W just now. She initiated (about kids), but asked about my day. Several back and forths. Each ending with "ILY". Very nice....
I think I'll give here until the first of next week. By that time, it will have been about 10 days with several of those days that I had the kids (removing the "no time" excuse). If she hasn't done it by then, I'll bring it up in the way suggested above. But I'm really hoping she does it without prompting. It'll mean so much more to me if she does....
As for baby steps, I have noticed a couple.
(1) When she calls for the kids, although it's about the kids, we have nice chats.
And...
(2) For years, she always called me "honey". When things started getting bad, she called me by my last name (in a cute sorta way). When things got REALLY bad, she called me first name (in a not cute way). Well, she's back to my last name again. Someday soon back to honey....
Had the kids last night. We called W this morning as she likes us to do. After kids talked, I got on. We chatted a bit. Maybe it's my mind playing games with me (entirely possible), but I swear it felt like she was hanging on and wanting more. I politely ended the call to leave her wanting more....I hope it wasn't just me. Called ended with mutual ILYs. Baby steps.
So, 1 of my goals achieved.... Really good evening!
Background: In the "official" schedule, today is my day to pick up kids, but I drop them off at "mom's" house. I don't keep them overnight. Also, last week W specifically told me she didn't want to change the schedule by adding anything extra to "confuse" the kids.
Just before I got to kid's school, I get a TM from W: "(Mexican Restaurant we used to frequent)? I know I said we shouldn't but I don't think it will do harm to kids. ily"
Me: "I'd love that, ily"
W: 3 times she sends "ily2" (now I have to say my brain is saying "was the 3 times a technical fluke or did she really send that 3 times?)
Very nice Dinner.
After dinner as they go to "their" house and me to "mine"
I send TM: "Thanks for the invite, I love being with you. ily"
W: "You don't have to thank me. I am trying. ily2."
Me: "I know you are and I appreciate your efforts. ily2"
So...that was one goal. She asked for extra time off schedule! Yippppeee......
I should tell one small bit of dinner conversation. My W is Catholic. I'm not. When we got married, I told her I'd convert, but we hardly ever went to Church so I never bothered. This came out during bomb-time. Today I emailed our Church asking about the process. I told W at dinner. She said "are you sure you want to do that? I don't want you just being reactive trying to please me." I said "yes, I do and I agree. If I was just being reactive that wouldn't work long-term and second, you're too smart for that anyway. You'd see right through it. I'm trying to be the man I want to be and I think that'll match up well with what you want, but it's really for me." She seemed pleased with that answer and the conversation moved on to non-R topics....
Know what I'm planning to change now? Not One F-ing Thing.
It's only "way to go" if the Mexican Restaurant wasn't Taco Bell ;-)
Nope, not Taco Bell!
So hard to not rush in. I see my wife and I just want to jump her. Can't even kiss her or hug her or hold her hand. I am not a patient man; never have been. I KNOW what I'm doing is working. I see the steps. Nice TM exchange with W last night about the weekend schedule. She ends it with "Ok and thank you, (Last Name). Sweet dreams. ILY" Doesn't get better than that. I'm not going to change a thing but the more she steps in, the more I WANT to RUN in. Ugggggghhhhh.
Getting harder to not have expectations too. I know I shouldn't but I do anyway. When I got to dinner last night, she kissed both kids hello. In my head I thought "ok, here it comes, I'm next". Of course I wasn't, I knew I wouldn't be, would have been shocked if she had; but was still slightly disappointed. How dumb is that? It's like not buying a lottery ticket, not watching the numbers get drawn and then being upset that you didn't win. Makes no sense, but none of this process really does now does it?
It's not dumb Sometimes it it hard to take the longer view.
you know the big picture, you know that stuff will come if everything continues. but you do tend to set yourself up for expectations and that is only a recipe for trouble.
I think very few are really patient people. For me it always helped to examine why I was impatient.
she doesn't give you a hug or kiss - what does that really mean?
hell, I still have expectations too even though it's pointless
Sometimes it it hard to take the longer view.
you know the big picture, you know that stuff will come if everything continues. but you do tend to set yourself up for expectations
Harrier thanks for this. I've re-read this line about 10 times in the last few days and really tried to think about it.
If you'd asked me 10 days ago what odds I gave reconciliation, I would have said 10 or 15%; if you asked me today, I'd say 75%. My sitch is SO much better right now. Amazing what can happen in a week! And that's where the problem lies. I, once again, feel like I'm just waiting for it to happen. A week ago, I was committed to a future where it was up to me to make it happen and I had a plan. I didn't have one option (my favorite one) open to me, but I could still have a great life and I could go execute my plan. Now, I'm back in the soup. I don't have a step 1, 2, 3,... now. I can't tell you what I'll be doing tomorrow or next week or the week after. I just have to take each day. OMG. I know that's what I need to do, but it's just not my style and it's really f-ing with me right now.
Interactions with W continue to improve. Couple things to note. At the last minute she got invited on a girls weekend, but it would mean being a couple hours late on Sunday for the kids swap. She asked me Friday if that was ok with me. I was totally supportive, no problem, happy to help. That seems like a small deal, but those types of things in the past where problems for us (she always felt that I didn't like her doing these type of weekends, I didn't mind but she felt I did). She went out of her way to thank me.
Because she's out of town, she has less contact with us then usual. Got text from her today "Miss you guys, ily". Now, "you guys" might have meant mostly the kids, but maybe not. I replied "we miss you too, especially me. ily2". Maybe I shouldn't have added that last part - she didn't comment it - but oh well. She asked about plans with kids and I told her "wow. Great dad" she said. That's all good (great!), but having (a lot) trouble not wanting more and wanting it NOW.
It's like the old pray I've read on here "God give me patience, and give it to me now!"
X Man,
I know it's tough and take it from me. I think that's where I started to get in trouble in my situation. I saw a bunch of improvements over a couple weeks time. I didn't take enough time to appreciate my wife's effort and just enjoy the moments.
Now I don't know if it cost me in the long run, but I do think it hasn't helped me
I think it is something in our DNA that makes this kinda thing tough.
But I will say, you still control your own ship. You are choosing to keep the door open to your W. You could have just as easily said "It's too late." when she asked you about MC. Heck it would've made things simpler in a way. But since you made that decision.
But try to remember you W is probably in the same boat. She opened up her mind to the possibility of things working out. i'm sure she is scared that you will revert back or something. She is just as fearful of getting her hopes up only to have them dashed.
The time is for her as well as you.
Someone was talking about the marathon analogy - I think it helps in the beginning, but it sux for piecing. Why? because when I start a marathon, I know exactly how far I have to go. I have mile markers telling me when the 1/2 point is, when there is 5 miles to go or when there is 1 mile to go
In this, It's like starting a race where you don't know the distance. (JTB would say that it is really the rest of your life in some respects)
But it sure beats the heck out of the alternative.
Timely analogy. I hope this isn't too much "identifying" info, but I live near Atlanta. The city has a HUGE race every 4th of July - The Peachtree Road Race - about 60,000 people run it, 6.2 miles. I'm not a runner, but I got talked into doing it last Friday (meaning ZERO training. I'm in shape, but....) by a buddy that had an extra number. I LOVED seeing those signs along the way, 1 mile, 2, miles, 3... etc. I wish they had them in DB...
XYZ
You give me hope. I appreciate that. Keep up your PMA and don't backslide on the changes you have made in your life. I think we feel our partners change before they do, which is why we are so confused. I felt my H's wandering eye before he actually engaged in an affair, and this weekend I felt him wanting to come back to my bedroom (from the guest room - he didn't), but only one night did I feel that. My H is MLC, so the Jekyll and Hyde thing is to be expected. Breathe deep and enjoy the good stuff.
how was the race X. Did you break an hour? are you hurting today?
I know it would be easier if we did have markers, but I don't know if it would mean as much.
Did I break an hour? In which direction? lol. 1 hr 20 min. As a runner, that would suck, but I was happy to just finish.
Am I hurting today? I'm sure I would be if I could walk.
Well, that's no so bad. Especially for Zero training. I hope you got your shirt too.
man you crack me up.
I'm sure running the race as a 180 for you.
My D asked me if I won the race. I replied, "yes, I won and I have the t-shirt to prove it!" Reality was that I placed just a a hair over 33,500th place.. Not too bad out of 60,000, I guess!
And yes, it was so much of a 180 I'd almost say it was a 360!
J3B - On 2/12/07 you wrote:
"Jack noticed and has noticed for the last few weeks that something has happened to his wife’s eyes. They have softened, not all the time, not for good, if she talks about something she doesn’t enjoy or like…they are crystal hard shards, but around him, most of the time they are engaging warm and inviting."
Recently, I have noticed that in my W's WORDS. When we talk it sounds like the W of old - much of the time, but not always. Your story continues to be such an insiration to me....
Hey X.
I wanted to ask you something substantive. I notice our kids are similar in ages. - mine are almost 5 and almost 2. How have your kids adjusted to the living situation?
I imagine that might be one of the harder parts to this. Except for a few small trips. I've been around both my boys nearly every night since birth. I'm a very hands-on dad and always have been. It will be weird to back a way from that.
I was putting my oldest to bed on Sunday and he says "Daddy, no matter how big I get, I will always love you."
My kids (D almost 6 and S 3.5) have done great. We have mommy's house and daddy's house. They think it's neat that they have 2 houses and 2 rooms... All they know is that mommy and daddy have not been getting along as well as they should.
I do get to see my kids 13 out of every 14 days - even if just for a little while. I pick them up from school every day and either drop them off at "their" house or take them with me. I'm sure that helps. And, I call every night at bedtime - even if I saw them 2 hours earlier.
I won't sugarcoat it. It really really really stinks, but it is nice every now and then to take a nap on the couch on a Sunday afternoon. Could never do that before.
I miss them all the time, but truth be told I miss W more because I see her far less.
Tonight......normal Tuesday "family" dinner after D's karate class. It was this dinner 2 weeks ago that marked the beginning of piecing. I wasn't thrilled at how it started out, but I do have to say that it was success and I saw another baby step.
First, when W got home she was in a mood. This is why I say it didn't start great. She was quiet and not cheerful at all. I tried hard to stay upbeat but knew it would be a tall order with her in that mood. I think I succeeded, but certainly not to the degree that I would have liked. After a bit it came out that our S didn't sleep well last night and she was up a bunch. I commented that it seemed like she was really tired. She agreed and things started to improve from there. Over dinner I mentioned that if she ever needed me to take the kids an extra night so she could get some rest, I'd be happy to. She said that wasn't necessary. I replied, "ok, no problem but standing offer if you ever need". A bit later, she said "well, if you don't mind, it would be nice to get some rest". No problem at all. Conversation got better from there.
Later, she called to tell the kids goodnight. After speaking with kids, I got on the phone. We chatted just a moment (we'd just seen each other 45 min earlier). As we started to hang up....she said "ILY" FIRST! Now, in the last 2 weeks, we've had bunches of ILYs, but until tonight I was first and she followed. Baby step!
Nice TM conversation a bit later where she mentioned how much D5 thrives on validation. I agreed and commented that "we all do to some degree or another" Her, "yes we do. You're a great father. ily"
I'd have to call that a success....
Harrier and X,
I almost don't want to break in on the friendship that is forming here, and not saying that in any sarcastic way.
Thanks for the kind words about inspiration. Just proof it can be done.
About the kids.
My boys were 5 and 10.
My 5 year old is now 10, and he has decent memories about Mom's (Fragile) Fish House and my Tree House. The reason for the names stems from Mom's house having all the stuff that would break if you bumped into something and all the fish tanks, while I turned their room into a tree fort.
My oldest son is now 15 and this last Spring when he and mom went to dinner, asked her a bunch of questions about OM, who was also my friend. Asked what happened why he wasn't around anymore.
She answered him honestly, without going into the more sorid details, didn't say they slept together (sex), but didn't shy from saying they were boyfriend and girlfriend.
She was a bit shaken when they got home told me what they talked about. I talked a bit with him.
I told him that the reason OM wasn't around was because he wanted a realtionship with mom at the cost of our family. He was selfish. He would rather be a boyfriend to mom than to have us be a whole family.
Our youngest...only 5 at the time, has yet to be asking questions. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.
Just be honest with them, within reason.
My advice is to just love them, support them, insulate them and never let them think for a second that the problems between you and mom has anything to do with them.
So hard to not rush in. I see my wife and I just want to jump her. Can't even kiss her or hug her or hold her hand. I am not a patient man; never have been. I KNOW what I'm doing is working. I see the steps. Nice TM exchange with W last night about the weekend schedule. She ends it with "Ok and thank you, (Last Name). Sweet dreams. ILY" Doesn't get better than that. I'm not going to change a thing but the more she steps in, the more I WANT to RUN in. Ugggggghhhhh.
Getting harder to not have expectations too. I know I shouldn't but I do anyway. When I got to dinner last night, she kissed both kids hello. In my head I thought "ok, here it comes, I'm next". Of course I wasn't, I knew I wouldn't be, would have been shocked if she had; but was still slightly disappointed. How dumb is that? It's like not buying a lottery ticket, not watching the numbers get drawn and then being upset that you didn't win. Makes no sense, but none of this process really does now does it?
That is very hard.
If she kisses you today? Enjoy the moment, savor it for a few moments afterward, but that was today, and tomorrow might be different.
The only expectation I'd advise having is the one on yourself to enjoy the moment.
These changes are FAST for a few weeks. Its a word of caution, not a forewarning.
She likes the slow guy you are showing her...you slip up move too fast and quick like a bunny she'll be in her hole.
Is it a test?
I don't think you lose anything by viewing it as such. I think you gain more by assuming it is.
: )
One last thing...
Change the way you are thinking. Instead of how long must I do this?
Every day you strive to be a better husband, every day.
When does it get easier?
When you stop thinking of time.
Whatever hobby you enjoy doing, whatever skill you are good or great at, you (unless some sort of savant) you built up over time with practice and patience. And success drove you onward to becoming even better, sometimes failure did the same.
This is the same.
Take...fly fishing (insert your hobby or skill) and now ask, how long till your done with it.
See the problem?
My coach used to say every day is an opportunity. Same here
Dont worry jtb. I still think you are peaches.
I need to update things with me.
The smart a$$ version of me wants to say that the skill I'm the best at (in my head!) is the one I'm not allowed to practice right now.....wink wink.
The non-smart a$$ version gets what you're saying...
Continued improved communication with W. It's the little things: I send her an email about totally admin things. I start it with "hi", she replies "Hi Yourself! Thanks...blah etc." Nothing really there, but the whole "Hi Yourself!" tone was missing for so long....
We all know how JTB feels about smart asses. ;-)
He loves to see them in the mirror?
Wanna know something that just hit me? I posted that joke a moment ago (BTW, J3B - was kidding, meant no offense). Also realized that Harrier made a comment a few posts back about me being funny. But here's the kicker, for a long time I haven't been funny, but in the last little while (week, 2 weeks?), I feel like me again. I can joke. I can be fun. I don't have to mope and cry and wine. I feel like ME. I've been gone for almost a year and I feel like I'm back. Damn, that's cool. And my sitch is improving. Coincidence? Chicken or egg?
Guys its highly unlikely that you can offend me. Not saying that as some sort of challenge.
If you say something that isn't true, It won't bother me.
If you say something that is true and upsets me? I'd need to figure out why and fix it.
I am glad that you found your sense of humor again, its usually the first thing to get shot off in the war.
Tough day for me today. I'm feeling pretty down. On the one hand, I look at the last two weeks and see such an incredible improvement over before that. On the other, all I have are words and very little by way of action; she still has not scheduled that therapy appointment and I have not yet said anything (I'm planning to on Tuesday if it's not done by then).
I find myself thinking: if before I didn't believe anything she said then why should I now just because she's saying what I want her to say? I guess there have been some small actions (a dinner invite, 1 ILY first, nice conversations), and I need to see that they may seem small to me but not to her. I need to get my mind wrapped around the slow nature of this. Still struggling with that.
The waiting is the worst.
Dear God, please give XYZ Patience; right the heck now! Amen.
The waiting is the hardest part
Every day you get one more yard
You take it on faith, you take it to the heart
The waiting is the hardest part.
X I know what you mean.
Must be something in the air today (at least in the east) I'm having a down day today too. I know what it's like. My W said she was going to see an IC to help her get through some stuff in regards to me. She still hasn't made the damn appointment.
Remember the time table gets thrown out the window. But a question. What are you looking for (beside the MC appt)?
Why are you looking for it and what will it mean?
I believe there is enough from you posts to say that she is doing some action, (maybe not the action you want).
I think it's also okay to be down sometimes. (JTB Winnie the Pooh would NOT be the same without Eeyore)
My W went about 10 weeks or so after she wanted to work on things before she started some regular physical contact- hugs, kisses, etc. Earlier this year. It's only been 2 for you.
You know all this jazz. Taking it slow also prepares you for he bumps ahead.
Dear God, please give XYZ Patience; right the heck now! Amen.
Didn't work. I'm not patient yet. Try again, Jack.
Harrier, normally I can't stand lawyers (and I have a family FULL of them), but you're awright man.
Well, that makes 2 of us. My Sis is a L and her H is an L. They are about the only ones I can stand.
But I'm mainly a business lawyer and a poet and full-time dreamer.
I will add that the other forum I belong to...a running one...is pretty active and you usually get a lot of comments on threads. So I have to change my expectations.
H -
You asked what I'm looking for. The reality is only 2 specifics. (1) I'd like that therapy appt made. She specifically told me (2 weeks ago tonight) that she'd make it and (2) just a continual (one every few days or week) set of baby steps that helps me to see progress.
Some examples of baby steps that I'd like to see, but have no specific timetable for:
* More "off schedule" time to prove that once wasn't a fluke
* More first ILY's again, to prove that once wasn't a fluke
* W contact me when it's not about the kids
* Time together 1 on 1
* A date!
* Any physical contact at all
* then the biggies later....moving home, kiss, hug, sex, renew our vows, honeymoon to Napa...., but I'm waiting a week or two for those. lol.
What am I bitching about? Just got "off schedule" dinner invite... 2 weeks in a row now..
Guess last week wasn't a fluke after all.
* More "off schedule" time to prove that once wasn't a fluke
Check
I'm thinking with piecing ... there isn't much room for flukes.
Good dinner. The best part? It was uneventful. Just a normal ole family dinner out....right up the part where W and the kids get in her car to go to her house and I get in my car to go to my house. Otherwise, completely normal. I guess that's actually very good, huh?
Now...if she'd just schedule that damn therapy appointment....
and be on time? :p
We are taught, I hope, from this place that expecations are not good for our state of being in limbo.
When in piecing you are rebuilding a relationship.
AND a relationship is built upon expectations being met.
I will tell you right now that if my wife told me in all honesty that she loved me but we would never have sex again for any reason beyond a physical imparment. I'd see that as her not meeting my expectation.
Not telling the spouse about an expectation you have, but holding them to it?
Pretty passive aggresive behaviour.
Have you mentioned to her how important you would view that, when she made the appointment? At a time when she was listening and understood what you were saying?
You have mentioned this many times here, and I GET that it is important to you (and I'm a guy who doesn't listen)...how many times have you told her?
As usual, you're exactly right. I have not said anything to her since the day after she told me she'd make the appointment. I do plan to say something on Tuesday. My rationale:
* She knows I'm not patient and has asked me to be patient. I don't want to seem impatient by not giving her the time to do it.
* She told me that'd she's been very busy at work
* She [censored] at doing this type of "admin" type of chore. If I told you how many times she told me she'd go to the bank/call the insurance company/roll over a 401(k)/etc/etc that never got done...
* It would mean so much more to me if she does it without prompting.
So....all of that considered, I decided that next Tuesday at dinner would be long enough for me to mention it without seeming impatient. I'm just hoping she does it before and on her own...
I guess maybe I'm testing her by seeing if she makes the appointment that she said she'd make.
* It would mean so much more to me if she does it without prompting.
I know what you mean.
However, I am still glad when my wife does something for me that I ask her too do that she normally doesn't like doing.
And yes, I realize how open ended I left that if anyone wanted to be a smart a$$ : )
Yes, if I recall from what seems like ancient history, asking and getting vs. not asking and getting is no contest....
J23B, as the piecer extraordinaire around here, got a couple of questions for you...
(1) This is silly, but I've had several opportunities lately where I was able to do something or reply to W in such a way that caused her to say "thank you". Usually schedule related - nothing big but out of the norm and for her benefit. Would you consider a "thank you" anything? Or am I looking too hard and she's just being polite? I don't remember many thank you's before but maybe I wasn't doing anything that deserved one either...
(2) The night W gave me back my ring, she was gushing with wonderful words: "I never stopped loving you", "I'm hopeful and committed", "willing to do the work", etc etc. That was 2 weeks ago. In the last 2 weeks, she has typed "ily" frequently, said it often but nothing more gushy than that. I guess it would make sense for her to put that out there and then step back a touch. Did you experience that?
Both of these question almost seem silly to me to be asking as they are so specific and I guess pretty obvious, but for some reason I'd appreciate your comments on them....
ehhh...
It's like taking pictures of nature or wildlife. 25% skill 75% luck. But thank you.
It isn't silly. Validation during a tough process helps.
1)
The Thank You's. Are you putting too much emphasis on them?
Maybe, but I wouldn't stop putting some sort of emphasis on them.
I would take them for what they are worth, something you haven't heard in a long time. Since you don't remember many, lets just assume you didn't hear them. No matter why...something HAS changed for the good.
Her for doing it. Or you doing something worthy of getting one from her.
Bottom line, you're not going to take them for granted in the future. It's a reward system or sorts.
2)
I guess it would make sense for her to put that out there and then step back a touch. Did you experience that?
Can I say F yes! without you getting offended?
When I say that piecing is harder than any other aspect of DB (MY POV) I really wasn't joking. It's a dance, it's rolling with the punches, its swallowing anger, it's sticking to your guns, its dealing with wanting to run when your partner is just barely crawling, it learning to talk and listen, its controling your emotions when it doesn't seem like they have too...all because you have a distant goal. A distant, worthy goal.
In piecing I held myself more accountable than I held her. I had to have a tight reign on myself and keep a watch over 'old Jack' creeping back in.
In the last 2 weeks, she has typed "ily" frequently, said it often but nothing more gushy than that
ILY...what would have given for that... 2 months ago?
Now that you have it?
Not being mean, not bashing you, something to think about.
Now that you have something you desperately wanted (I belive) you're not enjoying it, because you want more.
Once the ILY's would have been all you wanted to hear. 1 would have been fantastic...now? It's lost its shine, its not good enough.
I learned to REALLY appreciate what she could give me when she could give it to me. I still smile when she says she loves me. It's not routine.
I am assuming here, postulating X,
she is willing to do the work, but both of you have to be. It's not all on just her, you know?
I have this idea for me.
Everyday, I want my wife to know she is loved by me, (in this the 5 Languages of Love help)every day, I want her to be glad of her choice in being married to me. Something...even if it's a small gesture. A note, a call, a shoulder to cry on, an ear to listen about her day, dinner made, a chore she doesn't enjoy, bringng her dinner if she works late. A funny pictue/email. Her favorite ice cream in the freezer when she gets home from a horrible day...
Jack. Your best post ever. Thank you.
Next time I get to AK (only ever been once....), I'm buying you a Salmon or a Polar Bear or whatever it is you people eat up there...to go with that case of beer I already promised.
1 beer will be fine. : ) Alaskan Amber
Can even fish in my backyard.
Can I say you are thinking too much about No. 1?
Saturday morning kid swap at D5 karate class....Small talk (all good) with W. Then:
Me: I know you've been really busy and it would mean the world to me if we could get that appointment set. [How's that for channeling my inner J3B?]
W: I know, I'm sorry I meant to do it this week. Actually, I meant to do it the week before. I've just been so busy. I will get it done this week.
Me: I understand. I know you're busy. I almost didn't mention it so that I didn't seem impatient or pushy, but figured it was better to say something then let it bother me.
W: No, it's fine. It's not like I don't want to do it too, just been busy. I did get the email address for the person I need to get a referral from and I'll do it this week.
Me: Thank you.
Conversation moves on....
I feel better and will really feel better when it's done, but I have faith that she'll handle it. She seemed very sincere.....
Baby steps today....
Haven't seen or heard from W since this AM and then get TM out of the blue....
"Hope you are having a good day. WLY"
* W contact me when it's not about the kids
Nice exchange. A few minutes later, I TM saying that I'll call kids a bit earlier than usual because I'll be out later. She replied that that is fine and I can call now too, if I want. So I call, but she get's on. We chat for a few and then she says "I'll get the kids. I love you."
* More first ILY's again, to prove that once wasn't a fluke
I have to say that I'm feeling pretty good today...
Couple of nice baby steps today to wrap up the weekend.
(1) W this morning told me she thought we should be careful with the ILYs in front of kids so as "not to confuse them", I said "Ok, did something happen?" She replied that D5 asked "mommy, are you and daddy getting back together?" I asked what she said so that I could reply the same way if asked. W said "I told her, I don't know. I'm telling you that I'm committed to getting back together with you, but it's too much to explain to a 6 year old while we work through it." I said "ok, no problem, I agree" And SMILED huge on the inside....
(2) W called with kids tonight. She was very chatty and sounded just like "old" her. As is still my practice, I ended call first. About 5 minutes later, she called back because she forgot to tell me a story from today and "just had to tell me". I know I can't mind read but, certainly seems to that she starting to re-connect.
Seems like the baby steps are starting to pick up the pace. I like this a lot.
I know it takes how long it takes and dates and times are just dates and times, but I have a goal of being home by my Bomb-aversary - Sept 26th.....It won't be the end of the world if I'm not, but it sure would be nice...
Good goal. As long as its flexible.
Another Q, X?
From the time you left the boards in March or so until you moved out. What was your day-to-day home life like. Was there a lot of tension or little tension? Were there any physical acts between W and you - hugs, kisses, ML? Did you have regular convos. Did you do stuff just you 2 - even if it was watching a movie? Sleeping in the same bed?
Just curious.
H
Just popping in to give a slightly different perspective here. I have not yet made it to the piecing stage so I have no advice on that in general, but I would like to comment on something specific that you have been talking about a lot.
I know you really want her to make that appointment. I get it, it's something of a litmus test for you as to whether she is serious or not. However, you have said that she has a long history of not being good about following through with these administrative things, and she's frequently late (goes with the territory).
I'm a woman with a similar set of tendencies (although with me the lateness is by far the worst). For example, one of the big reasons my H left (or so I'm told; you know how much weight we should attach to that) was because I wasn't taking the initiative in running my business (I'm a sole proprietor, trying to do everything myself), so I wasn't making a lot of money. The thing is, even with all of the reasons to change that (to please H and maybe change his opinion of me a bit, to make more money at a time when I am dead broke, to help my self-esteem and all that) ... I still haven't "gone live" on my business website, which I started working on over 7 years ago! My H even told me once (after he left) that he goes there periodically to see if I've done anything with it. (I did finally get some tech help, but the delays have been almost entirely my fault.) So, clearly, it would at least be something I could do to minimize his reasons for staying away.
And I can assure you (see my thread if you like) that I want my M restored, down to the depths of my soul, and I will be standing for it and for my H as long as we are both alive. So it is not as simple to "just do it" as some people think it ought to be, even if you truly want the end results. Of course, I have had depression for decades, which invariably creates this kind of problem for those who have it, but one of my goals is to live a life which requires no excuses (still have a long way to go).
The point I am attempting to make is that humans are not simple, linear operators; our thinking can make everything much more complicated than it ought to be (but you knew that already, right?). One of the things I have learned through all the therapy and reading and studying about depression and relationships and so on, is that people do/don't do things for a wide variety of reasons, and often they aren't what we think they are, especially in the case of other people's actions. That's why it's generally better to give other people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible.
Here's an exercise to demonstrate: Write down every possible reason that you can think of which might contribute to your W not making this appointment yet. I'll bet that if you work at it, you can come up with 10 or 15 of them; I could, and I don't even know her. Have you done it yet? Seriously, grab a piece of paper and scribble them down; it will only take a couple of minutes. I'll wait ...
Okay, done it now? I hope so. Now, I'll bet that if you look over that list, you will see that a lot of those reasons have little or nothing to do with how serious she is about reconciling with you. What are the odds that some of those reasons (not about you) are in play here? Pretty high, I would say. So you see, it really isn't all about you, which in this case is a good thing.
The reason I have told you this long story (and encouraged you to go through this exercise) is to explain why I want to encourage you to let go of attachment to whether she makes the appointment or not, or how long it takes. If she has trouble just making an appointment to get the car serviced, why would you hang all your hopes on whether she makes an appointment which undoubtedly has a much higher level of emotion attached, with great potential for conflict? That is an enormous amount of pressure to put on her at this stage, whether you express it overtly or not. I think she, your M, and especially YOU will be much better off if you decline to make it the be-all and end-all of your reconciliation efforts. I think that if you try to decide whether she is serious or not based on whether she does something that was ALWAYS difficult for her, you are shooting yourself in the foot. If you absolutely have to create a test of whether or not she's serious (which I don't think is a good idea anyway, but I'm not an expert here), at least pick something that she used to do for/with you all the time and enjoyed, which she stopped doing when things got hairy between you. Understood? Make the barrier she has to scale for you to believe in her more of a street curb and less of a Mount Everest.
Besides, think of it this way: What is the end result you are looking to have come out of her making this appointment? A better M, right? If the M is getting better even without the appointment and its subsequent results, why sweat it?
I hope that helps!
Peace and blessings,
Dawn
Harrier -
I can say without hesitation that the period of time leading up to me moving out sucked a$$. I'll try to give you a little more detail....
The history goes like this. "mini" bomb on 9/6/10; I start all the wrong stuff (cry, whine, I'll change, I'll do the laundry, blah blah); "full" bomb 9/26/10; W is incredibly angry. Hostile. By 10/21/10 I tell her "If you can't work on this, I can't be here. It's too painful"; I move to my parents house on 10/24/10; 11/4/10 She asks me to come home. I did - I almost ran, no ground rules, just "yes, honey. Be there in 5 min!" and was happier, more hopeful then ever before. Ultimately I would move out again on 5/7/11 after 6 months of trying. Here's what happened during that 6 months....
It started fine. She would say ILY. She'd even kiss me hello/good bye (nothing fancy, but a peck). We had sex on 12/31 - after she says to me "don't think this changes anything, I just wanted sex". I was devastated. From there it got worse and worse. We'd be civil, polite, but she wouldn't spend time alone with me. Kissing stopped. ILY stopped. We'd pretend that we slept in the same bead, but 75% of the time she'd either fall asleep while putting one of the kids to bed or leave because I was "snoring"; the other 25% she's stay downstairs until I was asleep. I planned dates, she cancelled them. I'd try to sit with her one on one and she'd leave the room. It got worse and worse. By April, I basically gave up and said "it's all or nothing, I need to know if you want to work on this". She said "I don't know". I handed her my ring and said "I'll go look for apartments this weekend." That was pretty much it. Between that and the day I moved, the venom and crazy talk came back in full force. "I'm dead inside to you", "you've hurt me for 10 years", etc etc. I realize now that "Forcing Piecing" = "Pursuing"; under the guise of trying to piece, I had gone back to being melty man and pursing the hell out of her.
Harrier - I know that moving out has helped me. I know that J3B says he's against the LBS being the one to move and I get that, but disagree in certain circumstances. I don't know if it will help you or not, but here is what I do know. The place you are now (I mean emotionally, not physically) is the worst place of them all. Limbo [censored] worse then anything. You're a big boy, you make your own decisions, but my perspective and experience is this: When you have your space, you WILL start to realize that you'll be fine alone (not overnight - took me a few weeks for this to really happen). And your W MAY realize that she misses you and have the space to admit it - first to herself and later to you. The first has to happen for you to heal and be healthy alone or together. In my mind, this is a step forward regardless of the direction you M takes and that beats limbo all to hell.
Dawn -
Thanks for the perspective. Intellectually, I know what you mean. My career is a sort of high-level project management (I've spent 20 years either owning or running software companies or divisions of software companies); in my field I look at multi-year projects break them down to component steps and timelines and tasks my team with frequent milestones. It's in my nature to apply that here, and I know I really can't... after all, if I fire my W because she misses a due date that's sorta self-defeating isn't it? haha. I'm trying to understand it from her perspective - that's some of the work I'm doing on ME.
X
10 years ago today was first date with W. Just got TM: "Happy anniversary ily"
Wow. She remembered.
Happy anniversary too....I thought it doesn't mean the same coming from me.
Thanks for the info. While mine is not as bad (yet), I do see some parallels. My W has stopped the hugging, kissing and ILYs (unless we are having some sort of R talk then she pulls out the "I love you a lot" to explain something.) there is no active dislike...that I can detect. She always wants to do stuff as a family and a couple times she was going outside to play with our kids and she said, "Why don't you come outside with me?" She even suggested a one-on-one date.
We sleep in the same bed 95% of the time (unless a kid isn't feeling well, but she goes go bed before me and is asleep when I get there. It has been this way a lot of our marriage. To the point that I find it odd that couples go to bed at the same time.
I do see the piecing/pursing problems. I think piecing is MORE that both parties wanting to work on the marriage. Both parties have to be willing to move forward at roughly the same speed. I think without that piecing could fail.
Dawn - I get you point. My W is a lot like you in many respects especially with the tardiness.
For me it's not necessarily about changing her behavior or attaching significance to her action. It's about her realizing what her actions are doing. I mean I would get why someone might be resistance, but once I'd like to hear. "I know this is important to you, but I'm having trouble starting this..or"
I think piecing is MORE that both parties wanting to work on the marriage. Both parties have to be willing to move forward at roughly the same speed. I think without that piecing could fail.
And there lies the rub. You are dead on. Not understanding that killed piecing #1 for me. I'm certain that it'll be fine this time, but this is the killer part... But there is a benefit too. As the LBS, if you let the WAS drive the speed of the process you get 2 benefits: First, by definition you're at their speed and second, they have to chase you, even though you're really cheering (internally) for them to do it.
Anniversary? And she is the one to bring it up?
I hope you think that is a good thing.
So what did you do on your first date? You going to romatic the hell outta her with anything similar? A pizza if you went for Pizza? Dinner reservations if the resturant is still open? Movie tickets if you went...
You get the drift.
Enjoy my friend.
Bask in the renewed inportance of anniversaries.
I like your speed anaology XYZ.
Yeah, do the re-do of the 1st date etc.
Full discovery for me was 6/21/2010. On 6/22/2010 my H took me to a little island we went to on one of our 1st dates. We talked. I decided to stay. That move on his part was very smart. I reflect on it often....even though things can still be rough in this piecing process, his insight to do that was a good one.
I think it's important to get back to the basics that worked and keep working them.
W called just to chat on her way into work....
BTW, didn't redo the date. We're not there yet and W has made it clear that we need baby steps. We're friends, not romantic (except at night when I'm dreaming!
).
I did say to her on the phone last night "well, maybe next year we can celebrate it better". She laughed a bit and said "yeah, sounds good". For THIS year, I'll take that.
Where you are I absolutely agree with your stance.
Remember the Valentine's card fiasco? Good thing you don't have that looming.
I think these life events can be tricky. When I was more in a piecing mode, I struggled, but I think I steered the correct course. Of course, I did make a blunder.
Valentines, birthdays, anniversaries. Tricky. I think remember is nice and appropriate.
Having a rough day. This really pisses me off because 3 days ago I was really in a good spot. Nothing significant has changed, I'm just cycling and it [censored]. I sure hope I cycle up again soon....
Only 3 items worth noting...
(1) no therapy appointment yet. Uggggghh. I know the week isn't over yet, but come on...
(2) W wanted to be careful about ILY in front of kids. They have completely dropped off except in TM. I guess I get it, but hate it and makes me feel like something has changed (back), although I don't really think it has, just feels that way.
(3) D6 asked me last night "daddy, did you want to leave?". I said "no honey, I didn't." She said, "what did you say when mommy told you you had to leave?". I just said "I was sad that mommy and I weren't getting along like we should". I almost feel apart. My heart is broken.
I know the week isn't over yet, but come on
All hail "But" King of the excuses. : )
(2) W wanted to be careful about ILY in front of kids. They have completely dropped off except in TM. I guess I get it, but hate it and makes me feel like something has changed (back), although I don't really think it has, just feels that way.
I brought this up with my wife when we were piecing.
I said I liked them, they helped and it seemed like we were falling bcak into old habits. Since old habits is how we got so bad, maybe we needed to make sure we had new ones. Such as the ILY's.
I'm a dope. Just got TM from W:
"Hey, meant to tell you that I emailed my contact yesterday. Sorry it took so long. ily"
(This is the referral for the MC).
I replied:
"Thanks! I know you're busy and you have no idea how much this means to me. ily"
She replied: "Means a lot to me too, ily"
Jack - Guess I sorta just made your point about...
I know the week isn't over yet, but come on
All hail "But" King of the excuses. : )
Can I join the dope group?
I'll 'splain in a bit
No need to join, we're both founding members.
Piecing is hard. Where have I heard that before?
So, last night had dinner with W & kids. All good, very nice. And then....
About 10:00 W TM me to see if I'm up. I am. She starts talking about her cat that disappeared a month or so ago (the neighbor thought she saw him, but wasn't him. That triggered W...). She's sad about it, I reply something to the effect of "I'm sorry, I liked him because you liked him". Well, OMG. She starts telling me "no you didn't", "you hated him", "you're lieing to me", "you told my mother you hated him", "You never liked pets, I always have", "stop lieing to me".....
WTF. Where's this coming from? The venom and spew comes back.
I replied along the lines of "yes, I did tell you mom I hated him right after he jumped out and scratched my foot, but I know how much you and the kids love him and that means he's important to me too"
I emailed her this morning:
"I need your guidance. A couple of things about last night's conversation bothered me and I would like to discuss them. It's 4 AM and I haven't slept at all and I'm sure you haven't either.
I'm apprehensive bringing it up because I don't want to argue and I feel like in order for us to rebuild a healthy, happy marriage we both have to feel heard and be able to tell the other when something bothers them, so that's what I want to do.
I know you have a long day ahead of you and prefer not to have conversations before work, so this morning probably isn't the best time. Maybe sometime this weekend we can chat? I'd prefer not to talk over text.
ILY"
This morning she apologizes for her "strong response" last night and we can chat later today. All messages end in "ILY"
What the hell is this? I am so confused and I'm so tired of this crap.
I'm sorry that happen, but it will happen again...and again...and again.
I think you will have flare ups from time to time. I don't know if was really about the cat or something else.
Look you know the hot points in your marriage, if not they will come up in MC. You know how to steel yourself.
My take on piecing (when I was doing it) is that there will be flare ups, but its our reaction to those flare ups that matter. My W was very good about saying during the time when we were rebuilding - "we will have R talks and we will have fights."
I'm also of the opinion that a healthy marriage will have disagreements from time to time. I see a red flag when people say "we never fight," but that's just me.
Our problem last year was that the fights would spiral out of control. This year not so much.
Now it's different. I respond to my W in a different way. Last weekend she was really snippy and short with me, in between the times we had fun. I just kinda let it roll off me at the time. The only time I brought it up was on Monday after the weekend mainly because I wanted to make sure I wasn't p!ssing her off somehow.
All the same things still apply. Don't get hung up on one thing...eye on the overall picture. She apologized, accept it, move one.
There's a song I think about at times like these...
"It's not all about you
You're so cynical and vain
Yeah I swear you can't get out of your own way"
--It's not all about you by Face to Face.
I guess I could have gone with "yippee, I never liked that cat anyway". That would have been truthful, but somehow I don't think it would have been a better answer.
My take...
correct me if I'm wrong. You seemed to be trying to say something to get in your wife's good graces...like saying you liked the cat.
now I don't know if you hated the cat or secretly loved the cat. But your response didn't seem genuine to her. The "I'm sorry" part was genuine. The rest sounded odd as I read it. Of course, I'm odd.
But you have to rebuild with who you are (the new you) - maybe in this case a guy who didn't like the cat.
I think Harrier is spot on with what he wrote you this morning.
I guess I could have gone with "yippee, I never liked that cat anyway". That would have been truthful, but somehow I don't think it would have been a better answer.
I am glad you have your sense of humor still : )
It's piecing XYZ, it's not always a forward path, nor is it all skipping.
Cat's.
I once had a cat, a big (not fat) orange tom cat. Named Red. My dad didn't like that cat, until one day, he was working on building the deck in our backyard, and he sees Red coming toward him from the far edge with this branch in his mouth. Not a stick, a branch. With green leaves still on it, 3 times as long as the cat. Not dragging it either but carrying it in his mouth. My dad stops what he is doing as Red comes up to my dad and puts this branch down at my dad's feet, when he does, this bird explodes from Red's mouth and flies off, between that and the look of utter: "Daaammmmmmmmn IT! on Red face my dad couldn't stop laughing and ended up taking better care of Red than I ever did.
You seemed to be trying to say something to get in your wife's good graces...like saying you liked the cat.
That's spot on. I would have phrased it as "I was trying to be empathetic and supportive", but at the end of the day what you said is correct. I still wouldn't raise what I said to the level of lying to my wife..., oh well. Moving on.
Nice checking in TM from W just now. I know I can't read minds, but it sorta had a vibe of kiss and make up, hold the kiss.
You guys crack me up! Love the cat story.
Empathetic my foot. Hope you learn your lesson about kissing a ladies *ss!
Lesson for me too.... altho' I think men are more gullible to it. Its your ego, but what works for you guys doesn't always work for us!
Glad your wife has forgiven you. Tell her the truth one day and she will laugh, I hope, if she has a sense of humour!
I still wouldn't raise what I said to the level of lying to my wife..., oh well. Moving on.
neither would I ...that's why I wrote it sounded odd...instead of saying X has his pants on fire.
Just to clarify.
Just had a 30 min conversation (a real one! Not TM!) with W. I honestly now think that later I may look at this as a breakthrough conversation. Real talking and real listening. Wow. That damn cat (you know, the one I hate) could end up being a major help for us....Whoda ever thunk that?
Just had a 30 min conversation (a real one! Not TM!) with W. I honestly now think that later I may look at this as a breakthrough conversation. Real talking and real listening. Wow. That damn cat (you know, the one I hate) could end up being a major help for us....Whoda ever thunk that?
WHEW!!!!!
I read through this three times.
I read "breakthrough" as "breakup" each time I was wonder why you seemed so calm.
Finally, on my 4th time, I read it correctly.
Oh, so now you LIKE the cat?
Oh, so now you LIKE the cat?
Beat me to it!
Its amazing how...something bad has the chance to turn into something good.
It's a love/hate thing now with the cat.
Funny. As you said H, it was never about the cat. W hasn't thought for a long time that she was my priority. The cat was just an(other) example of that.... We discussed, I listened, I validated, she asked, I answered. I said, she listened. Neither attached; neither defended. We just talked.
It was only 30 minutes (she had to go). Still committed to MC which will have much more of that, I'm sure. Feeling pretty good at the moment.
W is a ponder-er; it'll be interesting to see how she's feeling in a couple of days...
Something she said that stood out: She said "remember when you came home last November and you were doing everything - almost waiting on me, and then you said it made you feel like a wuss? And I didn't like it because I didn't ask for that?" I said, "yes, I remember". She said, "That's how I felt last night, like you were just saying you liked the cat because you thought that's what I'd want you to do".
Message received.
"I liked the little hair ball puking, furniture destroying, shedding machine because it for some strange reason made you and the kids happy. I guess that means I'd like an octopus if it made you smile too, but please lets not get an octopus."
: )
Too soon? : o
Here's the really funny part....she's already got 2 (2!) kittens! coming in 2 weeks....
Those little F-ers will get to live in my house before I do!
She said, "That's how I felt last night, like you were just saying you liked the cat because you thought that's what I'd want you to do".
If I saw that...I'm sure she did.
Give when you don't not expect a reaction or are trying to curry favor, but doing it because you truly want to give. I think this is "true giving." And that includes verbal support.
Don't get me wrong. I walk that fine like so damn often I oughta be in the circus.
My biggest issue is when to back off. Throughout our marriage I'm more the giver. I mean, if my wife is out of soda, I'll remember to pick some up for her at the store w/o her reminding me. I remember all the b-days, anniversaries, special moments, etc.
Now, I'm trying to do stuff that I genuinely want to do. The problem is that I think what I genuinely want to do is too much. I have a problem saying no. I have to rely on my W at bit.
But I am learning. Like last night my W says "Don't make the kids lunches." before I would have, now I don't.
Honestly, that is the good thing about moving out. I won't get the opportunity to do the little things anymore. I really, really don't mind doing them and I don't keep a scorecard. But what will I do with the free time.
A little story. Last night I was running along a busy street with houses on one side. A garage door opened and a little dog shot out towards the street. The owner screamed out the dog's name in sheer panic. The dog then veered and made a B-line toward me. He then stopped for some reason and rolled over. I picked up the mutt and went to the owner to give her dog back. I have a dog...my dogs have gotten out. I was happy to let this woman avoid that panic. now most people would have done the same, but I didn't do b/c I expected anything (other than to spare the mutt getting run over) In fact, I handed the dog over and continued running.
Of course, it made me feel good because it was giving. Now if the owner would have just stopped an expected me to catch her dog. I would feel very different (though done the same thing)
You can do that and have that with your W.
(there goes Harrier, making the thread about him)
one more thing.
X.
You W wants her to be a priority to you. She wants you to feel that all your own. She doesn't want to force you to make her a priority. If you do it the right way she will see, feel it and and respect you for it.
one of my fav quotes on this:
You can’t respect someone who kisses your a$$. I just doesn’t work”, Ferris Bueller
It's odd, but I'm not sure if I had a good weekend or not....
I had the kids Friday night and Saturday morning & afternoon until about 3 pm. W checked in a ton, even to the point of apologizing for it. She said "she missed people". I told her it was fine and I certainly understood how she felt. I know that means the kids, but she didn't check that much before piecing so that's good I guess.
W and kids went to MIL house Sat afternoon overnight. They called me Sunday morning. W told me that she got in a huge fight with her brother and her mother. This is twice in a row that she's seen her mother and they got into a fight. Last time she didn't tell me what it was about and I didn't ask. This time she went into details about it. It felt good that she was confiding in me again about it, but it concerns me deeply that she still can't get along with anyone. She used the exact same words to describe how her mother acted that she has used in the past to describe how I acted. She used to be so close to her mother and that relationship started to get strained about the same time ours did. Coincidence? Doubtful. Wonder if she's try to divorce her mother now? lol
Not much contact the rest of Sunday until the evening. Kids called and I had a nice chat with W again. She asked me about my day and told me about theirs. She told me that she hoped we could get our MC appt this week and she would ping her referral source since she hadn't heard back yet. That was nice...
So, nothing bad, but I really miss my family and hate being lonely. I tried to stay busy Sunday but even with a good workout and a bunch of errands I still had a lot of downtime. I can one handle so many episodes of "Swamp Wars" on Discovery Channel before I start to get worried about big-a$$ snakes hiding under my bed. So ironic to me that I used to long for a little downtime (I remember complaining that I never had any me time; no time to just sit and watch TV; and that was true-I didn't. Now I have a ton and would give it all up in a second.).
Anyway, welcome to a brand new week...