Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Healing Minor Injuries - 02/26/11 12:04 AM
I'm going with the premise that this is the skill I need to improve upon when my W is displaying anger, frustration, and disappointment with me. I need to hang in there with the conflict, listen, let her know how her words effect me, and leave the conversation when it's becoming disrespectful.

My W began her personal training today. He worked her for a half hour. She was so inspired, she stayed at the fitness center for two hours. This activated her day, so she went and bought a watch, and some cheap wine for our home. The plan is for her to join me on nights I go to the fitness center to work out, in addition to our classes.

I'm frustrated about her unemployment and our cash flow situation, but find it easier to be patient with her when she's being productive and active during the day.

She responded to my email about the trip from Sunday in the form of one of her blaming rants. I think I'll probably ignore and delete it.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 02/26/11 01:49 PM
On the way out the door to our dance venue last night, my W again started picking at me. I bacame frustrated and asked her stop picking at me. This served to escalate the situatiion. She walked out the door, pulled the car out of the drive, and began to leave without me. I was both relieved and disappointed. The cell phone rang. I picked it up, and she gave me the option of going with her. I knew that I had to face this conflict. I got in the car and listened to what she had to say.

She told me that she was disappointed that I had failed to acknowledge her accomplishments for the day. She had begun her day with a personal training session, and stayed at the fitness center for two hours afterwards. She went out afterwards, bought some wine for our wine rack, and a new watch for heerself.

We went dancing and stayed for about an hour and a half, a shorter but good night. We went to our favorite bar, where I began to relax. She said that she likes to go to this bar with me, because it's a place where I give her my attention.

At the bar, she told me if she's upset with me, for me to reflect upon, whether or not I've been kind to her. This is what she wants from me. I have a reputation on these boards for being a kind person. I think what she's referring to is the verbal expression of kindness, and emotional attunement and responsiveness.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 02/26/11 02:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener
On the way out the door to our dance venue last night, my W again started picking at me. I bacame frustrated and asked her stop picking at me. This served to escalate the situatiion. She walked out the door, pulled the car out of the drive, and began to leave without me. . . .

She told me that she was disappointed that I had failed to acknowledge her accomplishments for the day. . . .

She said that she likes to go to this bar with me, because it's a place where I give her my attention.

At the bar, she told me if she's upset with me, for me to reflect upon, whether or not I've been kind to her. This is what she wants from me. . . .


Well, she's honest, I'll give her that, CL. I guess you've got some decisions to make. Personally, I could never live like that. Your wife seems unwilling to treat you better, and you seem unwilling to stand up to her, so I'm really sure how we can help you here.

Starsky
Posted By: kml Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 02/26/11 05:57 PM
Have you read the Five Love Languages book?
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 02/26/11 09:31 PM
Originally Posted By: kml
Have you read the Five Love Languages book?


No, but I do have it on my bookshelf.

CL
Posted By: Bolt Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 02/27/11 03:10 AM
CL, definitely read it. Find out what LL she speaks and then learn to speak it.

That's all she's asking for right now. I know you feel that you're doing the right thing and you probably are just not in her language.

It sounds like she needs affirmation from others. Make sure you can be that safe haven for her to give it to her.

If you guys are in a good place, have her take the test in the back that will show what LL you are.
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 02/27/11 03:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Bolt


It sounds like she needs affirmation from others. Make sure you can be that safe haven for her to give it to her.



I do need to be more mindful of this. I seem to respond more to her criticism. I don't give a lot of verbal strokes to her. She seems to be coming out of her hibernation, so it's important to encourage her along the way.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 02/28/11 12:09 PM
It's going to take some practice learning to integrate a compassionate yet strong approach to dealing with my W, and also developing my personality for my own personal growth. I appreciate the 2X4's and the feedback. I do listen and think about what has suggested to me. I know some are frustrated with me, because I'm not hitting the ground running with their suggestions. It's a reflection of where I'm at on the learning curve. Some changes can be implemented immediately. We're talking about reinventing how I view myself and relate to my W and people in general. Reinventing oneself is a slow process. I have to incorporate the feedback and make it fit for me and my situation.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 03/01/11 12:07 PM
I was disappointed that my W didn't make it to her job-hunting group yesterday morning. She somehow talked herself out of it. We went to our dance class last night, which seemed to cheer her up. She continued to bond with a classmate who she likes, and may be moving close to where we live. She shared with me after class that she finds it's easier for her to nice to others, but she is unforgiving of herself. I told her that she has to find a way to begin to change that pattern.

I was reading in a book that when a situation becomes more difficult, if there is love, it will grow stronger. If the other person is an object to meet one's needs the relatonship becomes more conflictual. Most of us have a mixture of love-object relations with our spouses, and each of us must work on moving more into the realm of unconditional love. I know I need to work on this, as my W struggles with her unemployment, smoking, and developing healthy habits. She does not exist primarily to meet my material needs.

CL
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 03/01/11 07:18 PM
Quote:
No, but I do have it on my bookshelf.
Read it today!!! Slaps self in forehead. It could really be this simple. Oh my gosh. Being the reader you are, I would have thought you read this book back in 2003 or 2004.

This could be the breakthrough you have been looking for.

They say people show love in their love language and they also tend to wound others using their love language. Words of Affirmation sounds like your wife's magic switch.

Umm...is that classmate male or female?
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 03/02/11 12:00 PM
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet
Words of Affirmation sounds like your wife's magic switch.

Umm...is that classmate male or female?


Is that one of the Love Languages? The classmate is female.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 03/02/11 12:20 PM
DNO,
I do still need to make adjustments with my W regarding when she is disrespectful towards me. I think it will come down to breaking the fear and avoidance patterns and directly responding to her when she is dierespectful or having a tantrum. It can be accomplished with different styles (mine will be different than yours or others). I will also have to break the pattern of thinking I'm trapped, paralyzed, or powerless when she acts in these ways. I think most of the situations aren't going to require me to throw lamps through a window, but simply to respond with conviction. The tone and manner may be what's most important.

CL
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 03/02/11 02:39 PM
Yes, from memory so the exact terms might be off a smidge, the 5 Love Languages are like:

Words Of Affirmation
Quality Time
Conversation
Physical Touch
Gifts

Words Of Affirmation is something that is easy to think about. It could go all the way back to her childhood. She did something good and her parents told her how great/special/smart or whatever she was. You grow up working very hard because hearing those words makes you feel very good or well....great/special/smart.

It is easy to see how a person could blossom on a diet of Words Of Affirmation. Imagine if you are wired where that is your primary love language. Imagine the effect if you were deprived of that. You might sleep elsewhere to try to find this kind of validation.

Really dig into that book. It is an easy read. You could really read it in a night, if not two.

Lamp throwing was more to paint a powerful picture. I think you sometimes need a little something to light a fire under you. Seriously though, woman like a little fire. My wife is fond of saying, she needs a man who can throw her around a little in the bedroom (again metaphor but she does say it).
Posted By: tmite Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 03/02/11 03:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener
She continued to bond with a classmate who she likes, and may be moving close to where we live.
CL

Is this "classmate" a man ? I find it strange that you don't specify this seeing as how she has a habit of cheating on you and blatantly doing it right in your face.

I saw this from you in the past , something about her going on a motorcycle trip with a "friend". You strangely didn't mention whether this was a man or a women and also seemed to accept this as no big deal. A little peculiar.
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet

Words Of Affirmation
Quality Time
Conversation
Physical Touch
Gifts



If I were to evaluate myself based on these qualities, I could see why my W left me eight years ago. I was lacking in all these qualities. I began to give her quality time in 2005 when I accompanied her to a dance class, and have stuck with it ever since. She continues to be after me to engage with her in conversation. I like to sit quietly, enjoying my surrounding, which drives her nuts. Physical touch is lacking, and has been throughout the M. I keep Words of Affirmation to myself, but am making an effort to give more compliments.

CL
Following one of our classes, my W threatened to our instructor that she was quitting the dance we've been working on in our private lessons (Mambo), for the past six weeks. She stated this in front of our classmates. She said that we weren't making progress. Our classmates cleared out, sensing a brewing conflict. After listening to both of us, and how we practice, our instructor advised us to first work on the routine to tempo (her preference), without worrying about mistakes, and then to practice it slowly on specific elements (my preference). We took his advice, and the next night had a great practice. Afterwards, we discussed the problem and she proposed adding a second dance (Samba) rather than waiting to start it later this year. We've also agreed to scale-back the private lessons to bi-weekly to extend our lessons over a longer period of time.

I think I've been making progress with mental strength, and being more present in the relationship. After looking at the list of Love Languages, I can see that I need to work on being more compassionate in my personal life.

She has been attending dance classes twice per week with me. It's good for both of us to get out of the house, and spend time with our dance family, and learn new dance elements and patterns. We always go afterwards to our favorite bar for a meal and beer.

My W continues with her personal training, and it' starting to show results after two weeks. I mentioned to her that I noticed a broadening of her shoulders, and some definition in her arms and legs. She's spending more time at the fitness center, which has prompted me to join her after work two nights per week, and increase my time spent exercising.

I still privately wonder when she's going to start job hunting. She plans on it the night before, but never makes it to the weekly job-hunting group. She mentioned to me that she considers this a time of self-care. We haven't been going to a weeknight dance venue, because she's self-conscious about her weight (142 lb.). I withhold comment on that topic, grateful that she now has some forward momentum with exercise. She intends on buying some more private training sessions, as it provides structure and accountability for her.

CL
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: Healing Minor Injuries - 03/12/11 08:21 PM
Quote:
I mentioned to her that I noticed a broadening of her shoulders, and some definition in her arms and legs.
Bingo! Words of Affirmation. Do more of that. Have you read the book yet?

While your wife's acting out in class was bad, the resolution was quite positive. This situation could have spiraled horribly. All in all pretty decent, no?
The dance instructor told my W that he wasn't going to let her quit, aligning with me. He also heard her concerns, and shared how he and his partner had a similar conflict. He normalized the conflict as part of the growing pains of being dance partners. It's interesting that the solution combined both of our styles, and had each of us move more into the other person's style (increasing my pace, and slowing hers down).

She glowed about my comment throughout the evening. My comment was sincere, and observant of small, but significant improvement in her tone.

I haven't read the book yet, but will look for opportunities to provide compliments.

CL
Quote:
She glowed about my comment throughout the evening. My comment was sincere, and observant

Virtual high fives to you!

I want you to really stop and consider how happy, your one small action made her. When one finds the right way to love a person, things can turn on a dime.

I think you are so on to something here. She glowed. What YOU did made HER feel good. On the count of that, her being with you made her feel good (positive re-enforcement). That is the whole point of a relationship. Someone to enhance your life. That is what you did, you enhanced.

I am very excited for you and the possibilities this represents. You should be excited for you. Read the dam book before I come there and hit you over the head with it!
Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

She glowed about my comment throughout the evening. My comment was sincere, and observant of small, but significant improvement in her tone.

Hurrah! I second DNOYs congrats. Way to go CL. smile
I'm thinking that improving my physical fitness will impact my mental strength. My W's increased time spent at the fitness center has influenced me to join her for a Cardio-Sculpting class (aerobics + free weights). We already take a Pilates class one night per week. I consider my level of physical strength and endurance to be Low Average. I consider myself to be on the high end of what I should weigh, close to being overweight. I plan on adding this class to my schedule, and upgrading to two classes per week. I fatigue too easily in my dancing, and have to pace myself.

My W made it to her job-hunting group. She took a vocational test while there, and it helped to clarify the type of roles and environments she should consider. She scored high in the Social realm--that she is energized by relating to people.

We've been spending every weeknight out together--two dance classes per week, two exercise classes per week, two dance practice sessions per week, hanging out at our favorite pub after dance classes.

CL
I keep my fretting about our money situation to myself. My W is aware of how tight things are. I hear no complaints from her. I wish she'd hurry up and bring in some extra cash flow, but I catch myself and realize I'm being controlling, impatient, and self-centered. We go on cheap dates (less than $25 for meals, and second-run moves, or dance venues ($5-10 per person). We're not joining our studio for $60 per person fundraiser. I hear no talk of vacation planning. We've cut our private lessons to bi-weekly.

She keeps working on her physical self, spending several hours two times per week at the fitness center. I'll try to influence her to join me for a third day. She's not complementing her work with improved diet or smoking cessation, but one step at a time.

Her mood has improved. I'm not getting much irritability from her. She's pleasant to be around most of the time.

She's looking into a ballroom Latin dress for venues or competiton. I'm excited for her. Our instructors invited her to visit their personal seamstress to get ideas. This gives her something to work towards as far as getting into shape.

On my way to work this week, she patted my behind. She also cuddled next to me in bed one night this past week.

Her job-hunting preparation goes in fits and spurts--intermittent attendance at her job club. I keep quiet about it, because she keeps talking about it, and is moving towards it at her own pace.

We attended a Spring Ball ballroom event again. This has not gone well in the past when we've gone alone. We have a larger dance repertoire each time we go, so we're able to dance more dances together. I volunteered to organize a group outing to this event thru our studio, which allowed my W to socialize and dance with others during the event. She organized an after event excursion to a favorite restaurant. We arrived at 8:30PM, and left the restaurant around 1PM. In the past, we struggled to last two hours together.

CL
Quote:
On my way to work this week, she patted my behind. She also cuddled next to me in bed one night this past week.
Right on!!!!!!!! Looking back, what do you think you are doing right that brought this on? Or maybe, what do you think is going right between you? Good to analyze your successes every bit as much as areas to improve.

Words of affirmation...makes flirty eyes at wife, Mrs CL, just wanted you to know, it felt nice when you snuggled up against me the other night.

How did you feel about it? I know this kind of thing is/has been difficult for you in the past but judging by what you wrote above it seems to have gone well, no?

Seems like you may be turning the corner.
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet
what do you think you are doing right that brought this on? Or maybe, what do you think is going right between you? Good to analyze your successes every bit as much as areas to improve.

How did you feel about it? I know this kind of thing is/has been difficult for you in the past but judging by what you wrote above it seems to have gone well, no?



I'm guessing the positve interactions with the dancing plays a significant part--it truly has become a partnership. Our instructor has noticed that we dance better together lately, even though we've been dancing together for over six years. At our studio today, the lady instructor was selling an expensive ballroom dress for $250. It's the dress they lent to my W for the competition in January. She jumped at the opportunity.

The other reason I think is the decision I made to join our fitness center last summer, when my W asked me to do so, even though it was over twice as much as the one we belonged to, but hardly used. I was able to convince my W to join me for a third day at the fitness center. I stepped up my fitness routine, as she shared with me some ideas she learned from her trainer.

She shared with me today, that she was in a dark place when she woke, but going to our dance studio always brings her out of it. She also shared with me how much doubt she has in her finding work she could enjoy. This explains her avoidance in going to her job club. I told her that her doubt and fear are understandable, but she must not let that shut her down, otherwise it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. She agreed. I left it at that.

I get anxious whenever the physical intimacy appears on the horizon. I'm going to have to follow thread title and avoid going into old patterns. I too wrestle with faith and doubt.

CL
If you don't mind my asking, why do you get anxious? I know you do but I think, in all the time I've been with you, you've maybe never said why. It seems to be a key piece of the relationship she desires. You will have to conquer this if you ever want to get over the hump.

>>in proof reading this post, I just realized the last sentence was a fabulously bad/good unintended pun. So bad/good, it had to be left in the post<<
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet
You will have to conquer this if you ever want to get over the hump.

>>in proof reading this post, I just realized the last sentence was a fabulously bad/good unintended pun. So bad/good, it had to be left in the post<<


I know. I have faith that the intimacy problems can be resolved. I think fear of failure and stirring up conflict fuel the anxiety.

I need help seeing the pun.

CL
Our instructors were having a spring cleaning special of old ballroom gowns, latin shirts and shoes at their studio last week. These items can be expensive if bought or made new. My W bought the gown for $250. I bought a latin shirt with an open front exposing my chest and sparkly stones for $250. The ladies in the class hooted and whistles as I modeled it for their feedback. I now have incentive to take my fitness to a higher level to get more tone in my body.

My W had a Tarot card reading at a dance party last night. She shared with me that she was told that she will have financial success if she works at something she loves, and that her eye problem (Macular Degeneration) will resolve itself. She has a follow-up eye appointment next week, which she's worried about, and in which I'm taking the day off to accompany her.

We added a third fitness day last week. She shared her personal training tips and worked me harder than I do myself.

She signed up for a Healing Touch session at our fitness center next week. I'm not familiar with that practice, but am happy that my W is trying different approaches for wellness.

CL
My W and I continue our three days of fitness classes and workout sesions at our fitness center. I work harder with my W than I do alone. We spent two hours at the fitness center yesterday. I'm not losing weight, but I notice more tone in my body. I feel and am starting to look stronger.

After her Healing Touch experience, she said that she didn't feel like smoking or watching television for two hours. She was advised to try it for six sessions.

My parents invited us to a family vacation to a remote beach about 700 miles from where we live. My W and I haven't attended a vacation with my family for some time, due to our poor connection and other reasons. It's probably been over ten years since we last joined them.

In the past, I didn't even pursue the idea. I didn't want to attend a family gathering with my W. I think it's an idea worth purusing now. I'll let the idea percolate and see how my W responds. We typically take vacations that involve having access to large cities. I don't think we would have access to a city here. I don't want to let my W off the hook too easily. I have a right to spend time with my family, but I need to make it work for my W too, as it would be our vacation. We'll see how it evolves.

CL
They told you not sweat the scale right? Muscle is a fair bit heavier than fat. You may actually go up in scale weight at the same time you go down in pants size. Plus your legs, back and shoulders may fill out some too. Lotta beef. It will add scale weight but good scale weight.

As you feel stronger and look better it will boost your confidence which can help in feeling better about intimacy. If you start feeling a bit of the swagger, I can guarantee, she will too. Woman know when a man is feeling his own power. She will become more attracted to you. You mark my words on this. Good for you!!!
DNO,
My perception of my body getting stronger does influence how I carry myself in the world, and how I think of myself. I didn't realize how important strength training was. My focus in the past was weight management and staying trim. I want to have pride in my appearance. It only makes sense that if one is working on mental strength, than one can't ignore physical strength.

My W does have an interest in going on a family vacation with my family. We'll start putting plans together after tax season.

We're keeping up with the strength training three times per week. She's keeping up with her personal training. We've discovered a virtual reality bicycle that we can do side by side for cardiovascular workout. Our monthly fee for our fitness facility is moderately expensive, but we both feel that it's a good investment, since we use it regularly. we've belonged to a discount facility in the past but hardly used it. Our place has more of a sense of community.

I'll maintain faith that if we keep up with our new health habits, be out in the dance community learning new dance skills, practicing these skills on our own, connecting with others and pursuing friendships, that good things will happen, and my W will pursue employment that fits her and brings in needed extra cash flow to the household. Healthy habits will replace passive ones for both of us. She has stated that she enjoys working out together.

CL
At our private dance lesson yesterday, our dance teacher observed that my W and I don't dance like partners. He states that we each have improved our skills, but it hasn't yet translated into partnership. He described us as having a pane of glass between us.

I thought it was an interesting observation given our intimacy issues. He was talking strictly in terms of dance technique. I have to use the upper body, and not just the feet to lead her towards where I want to go. Our teacher observes that we dance from the waist down, with virtually no upper body movement.

Maybe I can extrapolate relational issues from the dance issues, or maybe it's strictly a dance skill issue. I'm thinking that any progress made in terms of thinking relationally to improve a dance partnership will generalize into and improve the marital relationship. This applies to the presence aspect of my thread, in terms of continuing to get out of my head and more into the dance R, the marital R, and life itself.

CL
My W had her second Healing Touch appointment. She noted that the practitioner had discovered some inflammation in her elbow from her weight training. She was impressed, so scheduled another one. The practitioner wants her to meet at least six times. The practitioner also said something about her energy being scrambled, and also finding something at the top of her head.

I'm working on getting a better attitude about her work situation. I need to not control the situation--whether she's procrastinating or healing or both.

We're keeping up with three days a week at the fitness center, 2-3 dance classes per week and private lessons bi-weekly. I agreed to one dance formation team (she wanted two) that is starting in May, and will perform at a local competition in August. I also agreed to work on three dances for that same competition in August. We'll work together to keep it affordable. I bought a a used stylish latin shirt and she is having dress made (gift from her mother). My W bought me some latin shoes with 1.5 " heels this winter. We find space at the fitness center to practice.

Are we moving forward or continuing to avoid intimacy? An optimistic viewpoint would say that we're creating fertile ground for intimacy to occur. Connection is certainly increasing. The dance partnership is growing. We have a newly created fitness partnership. I'm enjoying spending time with her. We spend a lot of time together, and it's become effortless.

There are unresolved problems--debt reduction, household cleaning, my W's insomnia, and underemployment, physical intimacy.

I'm not sure what we're going to do about our invitation to my family vacation on the east coast. It would be a 700 mile drive. Airline flights are high at this time. I'm conflicted about it. My family didn't design this vacation with us in mind. I need to make sure my W is priority. If it doesn't work for us, than we shouldn't go. I can visit my family in other ways.

CL
My W mentioned to me that she would consider driving the 700 miles to the east coast to visit with my family. We would have to break up the trip. We can fuss in the car, if I'm not being conversational enough. I've been having my doubts about this trip, but maybe it will work out. Her level of commitment will determine if we go or not--I'm not going to force the issue.

I accompanied my W to her neice's ice skating event last night. On the way home (two hour drive), I became silent due to the fatigue of a long day. She hates sitting in a car, in the dark, without conversation. She threatened to take the wheel and drive herself. I told her I was tired, but she takes it personally, and views it as my being uncaring. I listened to what she said, and decided the best approach was to engage in conversation, even though I preferred silence. It worked, and I was able to have a pleasant car ride home.

CL
I went to listen to a Marriage and Family therapist talk about Affairs and Betrayals. He works from the model of the author of "After the Affair." The first stage is restoring order to the M, the second is assessing what happened and putting together individual and relational plans, and the third is removing obstacles to moving forward. He says that it's a 2-5 year healing process from the point of disclosure of an EA or PA.

I would say that in my situation, order has been restored. The OP left town last summer, so we're coming up to a one year mark. I've taken a personal and relational inventory and have increased the connection in the R via joining a fitness center with my W, taking dance lessons with my W. I quit my business venture six years ago that took time away from the M, and now work 40 hours per week. My W has been working on her fitness and health, by attending personal training and fitness classes to improve health and body image. Physical intimacy remains unresolved relationally. Quitting smoking remains on her list.

I think the prognosis would be considered good at this time, that we'll be together after five years. I think the risk of an EA/PA is reducing.

CL
My W and I had a conflict earlier in the week, when she was upset with me for being abrupt with her. It was a reaction to her earlier impatience about a minor transgression.

She is highly sensitive to my comments. I sometimes feel I'm supposed to be perfect, but that's a defensive comment. If I'm abrupt with ther, it means that I've slipped. Reacting to her impatience is not an excuse. I agree that if I create a minor injury for whatever reason, I have the responsibility of mending fences. Minor injury patterns left unresolved has lead to distance and conflict in the R in the past. I don't want to go back.

I sometimes get lazy about communication, due to fatigue or other reasons. She sits at home a lot and relies on our partnership for connection and stimulation. I have to remember to be relational when I'm with her. If I need space, I can more easily do that at home, where I can adjourn to the guest room to read or be on the computer.

CL
OK my friend. I admit to beating this into the ground but have you read the 5 love languages book yet? It sounds very much like her love languages are words of affirmation (we've covered this previously), and perhaps quality time.

When you compliment her, she beams. When you snap, she becomes very upset. When she is hurt she spews. They say we tend to feel love AND hurt according to our love languages. We also hurt others according to our love languages.

The quality time, it seems, she seeks with you but when she cannot get it, she goes elsewhere. This is probably gross over-simplification as I only joined here in 2007 so missed the earliest years of your posting. Still it may not completely miss the point.

I have no solution but food for thought. I don't think you can be a perfectly patient, eggshell dancer all the time, nor should you have to be. That said, if you had your words of affirmation working better, (more compliments etc...) she may feel more loved and more secure and not take it so badly when one of you has had a bad day or moment.
I'll second the 5LL book...read it, both of you, take the quizzes, learn your LLs and then start working on fulfilling them the correct way.

It is a quick and easy read.

It is even the first thing our MC had us do...
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Accentuate the Positive - 05/22/11 04:02 PM
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet
It sounds very much like her love languages are words of affirmation (we've covered this previously), and perhaps quality time.

When you compliment her, she beams. When you snap, she becomes very upset. When she is hurt she spews.

The quality time, it seems, she seeks with you but when she cannot get it, she goes elsewhere. . That said, if you had your words of affirmation working better, (more compliments etc...) she may feel more loved and more secure and not take it so badly when one of you has had a bad day or moment.


I agree. Thanks for pointing that out. When we entered our dark phase, I was lacking in both areas. The quality time has improved. Affirmation needs to be more frequent.

This week has been pretty smooth. I'm giving her space regarding her smoking and vocational issues. She's looking pretty tone these days. She's starting to put effort into monitoring what she eats. It looks like we're going to spend some time with my family this summer--first time in a long time.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: The Balm of Affirmation - 05/28/11 01:26 PM
The trip to join my family is still undecided. I think we're both conflicted. We don't want to drive 700 miles each way in a car to spend three days and four nights. My W lookied into the area where we'd be staying, and found that the closes city is 90 miles away. I think my W would go "stir crazy." I know my parents would be disappointed if we didn't come, but I'm the one who would have to spend a week with an unhappy W.

My W has asked me to stop stocking the refrigerator with beer. She said that alcohol is a trigger for smoking. She's trying to cut down on smoking. I'm giving her space to work this out at her own pace. I get frightened when she has persistent coughing--possibly bronchitis or worse. I know it frightens her too, so I let the natural consequences work on her.

CL
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: The Balm of Affirmation - 06/07/11 02:53 AM
Hey Cl I missed "talking" to ya
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Going on Being - 06/07/11 09:30 PM
Doc,
It's hard to believe it's been a year since I've talked to you. It sounds like you're taking much better care of yourself.

My W has agreed to accept my parent's invitation and go on a trip to stay with my family. I'm thinking the way to get thru this is to limit the amount of time we spend there--about three days, or more if it's going well. Seven hundred miles in a car with my W may have some difficult moments, but flying is too expensive.

My W's decision to limit the amount of beer in the home, has helped her to cut down on smoking. I no longer buy beer for the house. She buys her own, which creates a step for her , instead of having it appear weekly. She still spends too much time in front of the television and computer, but I give her space, to work it out on her own. I sometimes get impatient with her, but for the most part, am able to enjoy our time together.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Going on Being - 06/08/11 06:12 PM
I'm struck by a quote from psychiatrist Mark Epstein:

"Isolated in our heads, we yearn for the kind of connection that our own thinking guards against."

I write about increasing connection with my W, yet lacking intimacy. I need to be more aware of how I contribute to this. The conflict centered around sexual dysfunction for a long time, but restoring a sexual act doesn't resolve intimacy problems.

I'm at work, so can't write too long today, but wanted to capture this quote, for further exploration on how I maintain patterns that inhibit intimacy and connection with my W and in my life.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Going on Being - 06/11/11 02:31 PM
My W and I had a conflict recently, in which I gave a piece of her cheese to my dog, as an incentive to come inside, so we could make it to dance class on-time. She was angry with me for not consulting with her. I got a grin on my face, because I thought she was being too reactive over a piece of cheese. This of course, made the sitution worse. I was able to convey my understanding of her position, which put closure on the issue.

I've come to realize how much of a perfectionist I've been. I don't mean in a high achieving, attention to detail sort of way, but wanting life on my terms way. I don't want unpleasantness, discomfort, conflict, vices, unpleasant emotions from others. This keeps me in a state of disconnection, because I don't want to participate. One can't have intimacy this way. It's a lonely way to live.

I'm letting my W be imperfect. I'm staying with unpleasantness and experiences instead of being quick to judge, or snap at her, or being reactive out of aversion. I'm letting her months of unemployment and years of smoking work itself out at its own pace and manner.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Going on Being - 06/12/11 04:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

I've come to realize how much of a perfectionist I've been. I don't mean in a high achieving, attention to detail sort of way, but wanting life on my terms way. I don't want unpleasantness, discomfort, conflict, vices, unpleasant emotions from others. This keeps me in a state of disconnection, because I don't want to participate. One can't have intimacy this way. It's a lonely way to live.

I'm letting my W be imperfect. I'm staying with unpleasantness and experiences instead of being quick to judge, or snap at her, or being reactive out of aversion. I'm letting her months of unemployment and years of smoking work itself out at its own pace and manner.

CL


Neither of those two ways is any way to live a life, in my opinion, CL. There is a third way, and that is to lay out and learn to enforce calm boundaries, and stop walking on eggshells around your wife, calling her on her CB ("crap behavior" when necessary, and stop allowing her to treat you like a child.

I honestly don't know why you're afraid to stand up for yourself with her. She's making you sad and miserable -- it oozes from your posts.

Starsky
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Connection - 06/14/11 09:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
There is a third way, and that is to lay out and learn to enforce calm boundaries, and stop walking on eggshells around your wife, calling her on her CB ("crap behavior" when necessary, and stop allowing her to treat you like a child.



I don't feel sad and miserable. My W's mood has improved dramatically this year. She is taking better care of herself, and is looking fit and tone. We go together to the fitness center 3X per week. We bought another year's worth of dance lessons. We've been practicing together on a routine we'll be performing in August. I know the cheese incident reads as pretty silly (she can be somewhat OCD), but if I practice empathy, I can see that she is anxious about money. I think there's something to be said about giving one's spouse latitude with their emotions. I notice if I listen to my W and allow her to vent, it will pass quickly, and we move on. If I' m reactive, the day is ruined. She wasn't disrespectful towards me. I've been setting boundaries around more important issues, like money. I let her know when I'm out of cash, and even joke about it. She then picks up the slack until my next payday. She chooses not to work, so I gently have her share the consequences of that decision.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Connection - 06/15/11 11:51 AM
Just my opinion, from a guy who's been following your sitch pretty closely, CL. Yes, things are a little smoother, but that's only to the degree that you walk on eggshells and treat her with kid gloves.

Let me ask you this: how important is physical intimacy to you in your marriage? How much has this way of treating her created attraction, and led to intimacy?

"Miserable" was probably too strong a word. You do come across as "sad" to me, and that makes ME sad, cuz you sound like a great guy, with a lot to offer.

Starsky
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Being and Doing - 06/15/11 07:03 PM
I'm going to need to take a leadership role regarding the upcoming vacation. My W is fretting that she will be bored and trapped on the trip. I'll get a travel book and look for ideas. I'll need to have a mindset that my W is priority on this trip, and give her priority as far as my time. This will keep me from feeling in the middle between she and my family. I can't please everyone. It's important that my effort goes towards my W.

My W threatened to quit the dance formation team due to my failure to practice. Last week, she was beaming because we were the best couple on the team. I told her that I would be upset, if she quit six weeks into this. I'm the one who takes the lead in encouraging us to practice, so that's not true. She was also embarrased because the teacher commented on my not touching her during one part of the routine (a sensitive subject). I see no valid reason to quit. We had a good practice sesion late last night. I'll hold my ground on this one, and let her know my feelings if she threatens again.

CL
Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans Re: Being and Doing - 06/15/11 07:07 PM
Quote:

and let her know my feelings if she threatens again.


Why wait that long? Why not let her know your feelings before she gathers the resolve to threaten again?
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: Being and Doing - 06/16/11 01:59 AM
Quote:
She was also embarrassed because the teacher commented on my not touching her during one part of the routine (a sensitive subject)
Please, let's be very honest. Do you not think this is the real issue.

Missing practice for one week is just code and/or perhaps additional justification for her threats to quit.

I would go further and say that her embarrassment at your not touching her during the dance is really your lack of intimacy spilling into to other areas of your relationship.

The intimacy issue is going to have to be dealt with at some point. You have pretty much everything else checked off your list. From here you seem not unable, but unwilling or perhaps fearful to face this final hurtle.
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Being and Doing - 06/16/11 06:00 PM
Jack,
I agree. She needs to know how important it is to me and work thru conflict with me to make it work. We've talked about the formation team recently, and she shared that the practice schedule is keeping her from social dancing during the week. I told her that we can change our practice night to a different night, which would free Tuesday nights for social dancing. She agreed.

The other issue is that it's very important for her to be prepared for the Wednesday night class. We've been practicing on Tuesdays and Saturdays. She wants to be prepared before that. Even though we're one of the best couples in class, if we're not prepared for the next week, she gets anxious. I have to think like a partner and work with her on this.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Being and Doing - 06/16/11 08:38 PM
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet


The intimacy issue is going to have to be dealt with at some point.


I agree. I assume you're referring to the restoration of physical intimacy and eventually sexual intimacy. Hopefully, we're on the path from connection to emotional intimacy. In the meantime, I better darn well touch her during the routine. The next comment by a teacher will end the formation partnership.

We did the routine at a dance venue for performance practice, and she was complimenting me on our performance and praising me as a partner.

CL
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: Being and Doing - 06/17/11 02:56 AM
I would lump physical and sexual intimacy under the same umbrella and then emotional/mental intimacy under another.

I think YOU are getting there on the emotional/mental side. Your wife too a little but it seems for her the physical/sexual is required to complete the package.

Not sure I am explaining it that well. You seem better with mental then emotional then perhaps physical and then sexual in that order.

She might require the physical before she feels complete on the mental or emotional side.

You are on the path. At some point it may require a simple leap of faith...but that's easy for me to say. I'm not the one leaping.
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Being and Doing - 06/17/11 03:19 AM
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet


I think YOU are getting there on the emotional/mental side.

Not sure I am explaining it that well. You seem better with mental then emotional then perhaps physical and then sexual in that order.



DNO,
I'm guessing by mental you mean sharing of thoughts and opinions. I've been working on the emotional side. I'm raising my emotional IQ out of the Mild Emotional Retardation range to possibly Above Average for a guy my age. I think I have a higher Emotional IQ than my W (I empathize better than she does). I can't keep up conversationally with most woman. My W is connected to her body (she's a natural dancer admired by many). I feel the dance, but am just starting to express myself physically. I think emotional is gaining on mental and physical is gaining on emotional. Sexual is a distant fourth.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Being and Doing - 06/17/11 03:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
You do come across as "sad" to me, and that makes ME sad, cuz you sound like a great guy, with a lot to offer.

Starsky


I'm not sure what to say about the sadness comment. I do agree that physical intimacy is unresolved. I do think that what I'm doing is creating attraction and connection and emotional intimacy--partnership in areas important to her. Dancing creates some physical intimacy, but I know that's not enough.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Being and Doing - 06/17/11 07:58 PM
Put real simply, CL?

I think you work way too hard to try to MAKE your wife happy.

We cannot MAKE each other happy in life. We can only create the environment for happiness, and let our spouses be responsbility for their OWN happiness within that positive environment.

I don't think you've ever really let go of that. You are a pleaser, and a rescuer.

I know that, because I am too. blush


Starsky
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Being and Doing - 06/18/11 03:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309


I think you work way too hard to try to MAKE your wife happy.

We cannot MAKE each other happy in life. We can only create the environment for happiness, and let our spouses be responsbility for their OWN happiness within that positive environment.



In my case, I needed to do a better at creating the environment for happiness. The S in 2003 was the wake-up call for that. I think I'm creating it now for the most part. I need to keep working on moving beyond communicating at a conceptual level and be more expressive, empathetic, tolerant, connecting, and physical. This is my responsibility.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Being and Doing - 06/18/11 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309

We cannot MAKE each other happy in life. We can only create the environment for happiness, and let our spouses be responsbility for their OWN happiness within that positive environment.



I didn't give my W much to work with early on. I was emotionally immature and a poor communicator. It took a wake-up call in 2003 for me to begin working on myself. I've continued to work on myself because of the continued R problems since that time. I now feel like a good H and partner, and stronger, balanced, and happier human being. This is how it's supposed to be. Moving into intimacy will be a stretch, but I don't have a choice. If I keep the same patterns of distance, avoidance, and safety, I will feel the whip of R problems again.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Masculine and Feminine - 06/19/11 04:06 PM
My W is upset with me that the Japanese restaurant wouldn't serve her because the kitchen was closed. We had just missed the deadline. We had decided to go there, at the last minute. It appears we have a conflict. I try to steer us towards value meals ($25 or less). She wants specialty places. the compromise it seems, is simply to let her choose her own restaurant from time to time, even it's beyond $25. I expect to have to bear her disappointment today. I'm going to work on being stronger in the face of conflict, and try not to walk around like a scolded puppy.

I'm going to try to remember Starsky's wisdom about creating the best possible environment for my spouse on our vacation, and let the rest go. If there's a problem for me to solve, or if there's something I can do to enrich my W's stay, I'll do it. If I encounter nonconstructive complaining, in which there is nothing I can do, I'll have to leave her to her own misery, or tolerate it to the extent I'll have to (in the car). I'll hope for the best, and not expect perfection.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/20/11 11:57 AM
My W continued to share her doubts about the upcoming trip. I gave her the option of not going. I told her that if she thought there was less than a fair chance of having a good time, she should stay home. I would make the 700 mile drive by myself. She considered it for a bit, and decided she didn't want to miss out on a new experience. She said she would have to adjust her attitude. We are off on our trip. I'm glad she's coming, but would have made the trip without her.

She's fretting that there will be 12 people in a house, and that she won't have the freedom she has at home. She will have to adjust for 3-4 days. I let her decide if there were any dealbreakers for her. I couldn't decide for her.

I think it will be good for us to getaway. We haven't been out of town since last September. I haven't had a week off of work since that time. I'm looking forward to this trip as a means to further bond with my W and connect with my family.

My W has asked me to put my arm around her at night, these past few nights.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/20/11 01:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener


My W has asked me to put my arm around her at night, these past few nights.




I suspect that it's no coincidence, after how you handled yourself regarding the trip. smile

You are LEADING.


Starsky
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Masculine and Feminine - 06/20/11 01:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

I'm going to try to remember Starsky's wisdom about creating the best possible environment for my spouse on our vacation, and let the rest go. If there's a problem for me to solve, or if there's something I can do to enrich my W's our stay, I'll do it. If I encounter nonconstructive complaining, in which there is nothing I can do, I'll have to leave her to her own misery, or tolerate it to the extent I'll have to (in the car). I'll hope for the best, and not expect perfection.

CL


There . . . fixed it for you. wink


Starsky
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: Masculine and Feminine - 06/20/11 01:57 PM
Quote:
My W continued to share her doubts about the upcoming trip. I gave her the option of not going. I told her that if she thought there was less than a fair chance of having a good time, she should stay home. I would make the 700 mile drive by myself. She considered it for a bit, and decided she didn't want to miss out on a new experience. She said she would have to adjust her attitude. We are off on our trip. I'm glad she's coming, but would have made the trip without her.

She's fretting that there will be 12 people in a house, and that she won't have the freedom she has at home. She will have to adjust for 3-4 days. I let her decide if there were any dealbreakers for her. I couldn't decide for her.
This

Quote:

My W has asked me to put my arm around her at night, these past few nights.
And this

You were calm and unflappable and let her handle her own garbage. This reads like a much more calm and confident CL and look what resulted.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Masculine and Feminine - 06/20/11 02:06 PM
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet
Quote:
My W continued to share her doubts about the upcoming trip. I gave her the option of not going. I told her that if she thought there was less than a fair chance of having a good time, she should stay home. I would make the 700 mile drive by myself. She considered it for a bit, and decided she didn't want to miss out on a new experience. She said she would have to adjust her attitude. We are off on our trip. I'm glad she's coming, but would have made the trip without her.

She's fretting that there will be 12 people in a house, and that she won't have the freedom she has at home. She will have to adjust for 3-4 days. I let her decide if there were any dealbreakers for her. I couldn't decide for her.
This

Quote:

My W has asked me to put my arm around her at night, these past few nights.
And this

You were calm and unflappable and let her handle her own garbage. This reads like a much more calm and confident CL and look what resulted.



BINGO.



Starsky
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/22/11 02:42 PM
Starsky,
Thanks for the affirmation about how I handled the day prior to the trip. About 200 miles from our home my W and I were involved in a 3 car accident, on the interstate. I was slowing down to stop for traffic that had stopped on the highway. The road was wet from raining earlier in the day. Without warning I felt a strong impact. I knew it was not a fender bender. I felt like I was on an amusement park ride.

When I stepped out of the car, the back end of the car looked like an accordian. the back window was shattered. It was a significant impact. My W was outside screaming. A highway patrolman told me that an elderly woman failed to slow down for the stopped traffic. She had hit someone behind me, who then hit me.

We were transported to the ER in Charleston, WV for precautions at 7PM and stayed until 4AM. My neck is sore, but nothing was discovered to be wrong on the X-Ray or CAT Scan. My was W leaning forward at the time of impact, so hit her mouth on the dashboard. Her mouth, neck, and wrist are sore. Nothing is broken.

We spent the night and next day in Charleston. My W took control and managed all the phone call with the insurance company and rental car company. I decided it was best to return home and not drive the additonal 500 miles with sore necks and backs. We have an appointment with our chiropractor today. I'm not going to return to work, as was scheduled, to help as-needed at home.

My W broke down in the car, needing to describe the accident and her reaction to it.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/22/11 03:42 PM
I seem to be in the doghouse today for some reason. I'm scratching my head over it. My W had me sleep in the guest room last night.

On the way home from our ordeal, she told me she was disappointmed that I didn't do a better job of advocating for her regarding the room arrangements with my family. She thinks I should have told my parents that she is a night owl and needs apace at night outside the bedroom to pass the time (like at home). I was thinking that she could adapt once she saw the arrangements for herself. There were going to be 12 people in a 10 person house. It's true that I didn't get a final head count until the day prior to the trip. My W had it in her mind that the living room would be free, as she is a night owl. My nephew was going to sleep on the couch. I'm not sure what other options there could have been, other than for her to not go or stay at a nearby hotel. She believes I should have taken care of this issue for her. I believe there isn't any option that would have satisfied her.

I got defensive when she brought this up in the car. Her timing was poor. I think the options were limited. She had to choose to adapt or not. I think she chose to go and complain and not adapt. Who knows how she would have handled it once we got there?

I'll make sure we get to the chiropractor today. I'll tolerate her moods, and let her have some space, and her opinions, and engage when it's constructive.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/22/11 04:23 PM
Oh good grief. Your wife needs to grow the H up, and focus on what's truly important. My lord, you could've both been KILLED yesterday!

I'm glad you're okay, CL. Focus on taking care of the care and insurance and medical matters, and on "Doing The Right Thing" in each. Let your wife to her own moods, and just validate without overdoing/rescuing, in my opinion.


Starsky (who's not liking your wife too much right now mad )
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/23/11 02:04 AM
OK, you know I am on your side but bend over and feel the pain of the 2x4 coming...
Quote:
My W had me sleep in the guest room last night.
You're a man...you're THE man in your house.

She is pitching a hissy fit so you are relegated to the guest room. DO NOT ever stoop so low again. I think just by standing your ground and refusing to be related to the couch, you could have increased her attraction to you considerably. This was a key opportunity to take lemons and make vodka lemonades out of them.

I am starting to see a pattern. This may be code yet again for her being pissed at something but not having the guts to really speak up about what is bothering her...or like my wife, she will pick at something until you figure out what is really bothering her. The sleeping arrangements accomadating her night owlness may not even be the issue.

From here, her concern seem's trivial, self-centered, and after the fact. I would absolutely not frame it like that to her. You might point out that you would be willing to try to work with her but she needs to tell you about these types of things in advance. You also need to tell her that sometimes you can work things out for her, sometimes you might not. Sometimes she will have to tough it out. This is what couples do for each other.

Now all that said, I think she is trying to tell you something...this reads that she may be disapointed that you were not more assertive and/or manly in the handling of the accident.
Quote:
My W took control and managed all the phone call with the insurance company and rental car company.
This seems like traditional "man work". I also think she was traumatized and this is her way, perhaps of venting. My wife does stuff like this too.

This is all supposition of course but you two seem of the age where more traditional roles would be played. Handling the accident would be in your court. Being more assertive (not controlling but assertive) does seem like something you could use work on. Food for thought
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/23/11 03:36 AM
I agree with practically everything Down said.

CL, it would seem like you have assumed the female role in your relationship with your wife. It would also seem that your wife is not happy, nor attracted, by that dynamic.

Food for thought.


Starsky
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/23/11 01:45 PM
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet
This was a key opportunity to take lemons and make vodka lemonades out of them.

This may be code yet again for her being pissed at something but not having the guts to really speak up about what is bothering her...or like my wife, she will pick at something until you figure out what is really bothering her. .

You might point out that you would be willing to try to work with her but she needs to tell you about these types of things in advance. You also need to tell her that sometimes you can work things out for her, sometimes you might not. Sometimes she will have to tough it out. This is what couples do for each other.

Now all that said, I think she is trying to tell you something...this reads that she may be disapointed that you were not more assertive and/or manly in the handling of the accident.

This seems like traditional "man work". I also think she was traumatized and this is her way, perhaps of venting. My wife does stuff like this too.

Being more assertive (not controlling but assertive) does seem like something you could use work on. Food for thought


DNO,
She took off like a jackrabbit when it came to calling the insurance companies. She is impatient and it has to be handled NOW. I could have wrestled the ball from her, but she would have not given up control, and let me handle it in my own way. The dynamic exists for reasons beyond a lack of assertiveness on my part. I would have been happy to make phone calls. I'll admit that I was remiss in offering my assistance, to see if she wanted to shift responsibillity to me.

When she was telling me about her disappointment about my failure for being a stronger advocate with my parents, I countered that I didn't see other options to advocate for. It was a situation she was going to have to adapt to. It was a situation I was not looking forward to.

I've been checking on the value of her car for her, cleaned out the car yesterday, and will speak to an attorney today. I noticed her sister called, so I'll return her call to save my W the time. I slept in the main bedroom last night, without asking.
CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/23/11 01:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
.

CL, it would seem like you have assumed the female role in your relationship with your wife. It would also seem that your wife is not happy, nor attracted, by that dynamic.




Starsky


I have to be careful of not avoiding opportunities and responsibilities for assertiveness as they arise. I have been putting effort into avoiding "egg-shell walking" around her. I'm more willing to work thru unpleasantness.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/23/11 02:00 PM
My W and I met with the chiropractor yesterday. He thinks we both have whiplash. He took X-rays and will meet with us again today to tell us what the treatment plan is. He was concerned about the impact we had, and believes our injuries are likely significant.

I spoke with an attorney this morning, and scheduled an appointment for today.

I went to our dance class to film new material. My W stayed home. I thought it would be good to keep with normal activites. It was nice to hear the concern of friends.

I took my W to dinner after the chiropractor.

She didn't vent any negativity towards me yesterday. She asked me to look into the value of her car, so we could get a fair settlement, and to talk to the attorney to set up an initial meeting.

I'm not scheduled to return to work until Tuesday, so will keep with that, so that I can assist with preliminary accident business.

CL
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/23/11 09:53 PM
Quote:
She took off like a jackrabbit when it came to calling the insurance companies. She is impatient and it has to be handled NOW. I could have wrestled the ball from her, but she would have not given up control, and let me handle it in my own way. The dynamic exists for reasons beyond a lack of assertiveness on my part. I would have been happy to make phone calls.
That sounds reasonable to me. Our free advice is just that, and sometimes lacks the deeper perspective you have. Sometimes an objective third party is good, on the flip side we don't know everything about you and the fine points of your relationship.

Quote:
I'll admit that I was remiss in offering my assistance, to see if she wanted to shift responsibillity to me.
Offering assistance is good, shifting responsibility to you, not so good. If she took it, then she can run with it. Hope that makes sense. I may not be effectively elaborating.

Quote:
I countered that I didn't see other options to advocate for. It was a situation she was going to have to adapt to.
Fair and reasonable. She herself could have presented options. She can solve her own problems, you could support her, and I believe you would have.


Quote:
I slept in the main bedroom last night, without asking.
Cause you're a MAN baby!
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/24/11 01:09 PM
I have taken over the lead role for the car buying project and scheduling of all appointments. We'll accomplish what we can with the free time I have until Tuesday.

We've established a relationship with an attorney and are going for fair compensation for expenses and inconvenience.

My W's wrist is still huring. I'm going to call our primary doctor and have it looked at to r/o a break.

We had our first chiropractic treatment yesterday and will see him 3X/week for 6-8 weeks. We've been told to avoid using free weight for two weeks.

My W went to her dance class last night, but looked stiff. We'll stay connected to the studio even though we'll be less than perfect.

My W would like to try acupuncture as a smoking cessation aid. She's concerned about her persistent cough. She said tht if she doesn't quit, she's afraid she's going to get seriously ill in a few years. I'm going to make an appointment for her. There is an acupuncturist at our fitness center who specializes in addictions.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/24/11 03:09 PM
Good job, CL!!!! whistle
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: The Marital Warrior - 06/25/11 01:02 PM
My W and I had a productive day car shopping, and putting together a plan we both agree to. We went to a quality used car dealer, two mechanics, and my W spent time online shopping. We discovered a 2001 Volvo for a price comparable to the car we lost, so we can cover it in cash. Our plan is to not add car payments to our expenses. My W is excited. My expectation was that my W not have to drive a car lower in value than what she had.

My W went to her primary doctor and had her wrist X-rayed. It is not broken.

We're taking a break from social dancing for now. My W doesn't want to turn her neck quickly, as is required on turns.

My W has her visit with the acupuncturist today. It's time for her to try something different to break her smoking pattern.

I'm frustrated not being able to do my free weights for two or more weeks, but I suppose I should be grateful for not having more serious injuries. My neck is often sore, like someone has hit me in the back of the head with an object. It's feelling better after even one chiropractic treatment.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: The Marital Warrior - 07/15/11 04:37 PM
CL, how are things going for you? How about an update? How's everyone's backs/necks?


Starsky
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Connection and Space - 07/17/11 04:24 PM
Starsky,
I've had about eight chiropractor treatments. My neck is starting to feel better for the first time since the accident. I've resumed my free weights exercise. My W's wrist isn't getting better. She's going to see an orthopedist this week to see what's wrong.

My W has had three acupuncture treatment to quit smoking. She has been able to cut down to less than 1/2 pack per day. She's having trouble getting to the quitting point. I think it's psychological at this point. I give her the space to work it out at her own pace. He r coughing has stopped due to the reduction in smoking. She's has designated our new car as nonsmoking, and has stuck to it.

We've been out dancing socially seven times already this month. We practice two nights per week at the studio in preparation for our group performance in five weeks. My W wants to increase our lessons to weekly to pick up the pace of the learning curve. I've decided that I should take advantage of having a motivated partner. I told her that weekly is fine as long as we keep up with the pace.

Our anniversary is today. I will offer to take my W to a nice restaurant.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Connection and Space - 07/17/11 04:55 PM

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY, CL! grin I hope you guys have a nice day and evening; you deserve it after all of the effort you've been putting into your relationship.

Praying for a peaceful and fun day for the two of you, and glad to hear you're healing up (other than the wrist).

Starsky
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Self -Expression - 07/23/11 01:10 PM
The dance formation team my W and I are on is helping me to be more physically expressive. The movements are large with the body and hands. It also allows me to be close to my W physically without the anxiety of sexual performance.

My W and I had dinner with our dance teachers. During the meal, we were talking about couples being expessive with one another. My W stated that she doesn't feel anything special when dancing with me (referring to th physical connection). I was embarrassed, and didn't comment on it. She acts different in front of the teachers versus when we're alone--aloof to some extent. I've learned from dancing about the ambivalence, fear, and conflict couples have towards each other, and how it's expressed in the dance. It reminds me that relationships aren't perfect.

We have a local restaurant picked out for our anniversary dinner. It's in an old downtown hotel, and may be the best restaurant in towm for fine dining.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/24/11 05:00 PM
My W was complaining prior to our dance lesson that she still isn't dancing enough. I am thinking WTF do you want from me? We've been out dancing nine times this month. Our dance teacher, who we've been working with for over a year helped to move us forward. He thinks I'm being too careful, and too focused and wants me to pick up the pace, and put more on my plate. He states that my plate still has room on it. The problem is I only see a saucer.

He helped us to see that we're still only dancing about half the dance styles. This is my W's frustration--she's sitting out too much. We picked another dance style to add to the mix--Bolero. The plan is to resume weekly dance lessons, work on three dances at this time--Samba, Hustle, Bolero. Continue with the dance formation and add a Waltz dance formation in the fall.

I wouldn't have been able to resolve this conflict on my own. I am the one slowing things down in the dance partnership.

My W asked me to cuddle her last night.

CL
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Opening Up - 07/24/11 05:47 PM
CL,

When are you going to try to initiate ML again with your wife?


Starsky
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: Opening Up - 07/24/11 10:50 PM
Quote:
complaining prior to our dance lesson that she still isn't dancing enough. I am thinking WTF do you want from me?
That is code, I think. The answer to WTF is what Starsky said in the post above.

Quote:
My W asked me to cuddle her last night.
She is telling you what she wants. Time to man up and even of you don't initiate ML, kiss her neck, stroke her arm, rub her thigh...do something. It's time.
Posted By: tmite Re: Opening Up - 07/25/11 09:31 PM
As you two don't speak directly but instead sort of "dance" around the issues with head games it sounds in your last couple posts that she "in CL Speak" is giving you fair warning that her patients is wearing thin and she is going to to pursue a sexual relationship with someone else again if you dont.

I'm referring to the cuddle comment and this humiliating doozy-

"My W and I had dinner with our dance teachers. During the meal, we were talking about couples being expessive with one another. My W stated that she doesn't feel anything special when dancing with me (referring to th physical connection). I was embarrassed, and didn't comment on it."
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/26/11 03:30 AM
Starsky,
I don't know. It seems like a big step. I don't think I could relax enough to do it. I don't think she could relax enough to do it. There must be smaller steps along the way.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/26/11 03:34 AM
DNO,
We're learning how to do Bolero--a slow foreplay kind of dance. That must count for something.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/26/11 03:41 AM
Tmite,
It's difficult being vulnerable in a M like I've had. You don't seem to empathize with or validate that, so your advice has little credibility with me.

CL
Posted By: Lanzo Re: Opening Up - 07/26/11 11:26 AM
Hi CL,

It takes a lot to get me to post these but your instant dismissal of Tmites advice is one of those occasions where I feel I just need to say something.

Your followers have kindly interpreting your W behaviour into understandable words which You may or may not feel like you are able to act on, but to all of us it is clear what your W is hinting at. When she asks for a cuddle she is making herself vulnerable for you to take advantage. When she ridicules or embarrasses you she is looking for a “caveman” reaction from you, but when you follow your normal avoidance strategy she gets annoyed and banishes you to the spare room, (Beware I can see that one coming soon).

So no advice is being offered here I just wanted to say don’t be so dismissive of others advice because the actions will take you out of your comfort zone.

Take care and keep trying

Lanzo
Posted By: Kalni Re: Opening Up - 07/26/11 12:53 PM
I am glad my old friend Lan posted this cause I have erased a similar post this morning. It was actually one similar to Tmite's but then read the response and backed off. But then I remembered all those harsh posts by my friends and decided I would give the favor back, because it was a favor for me...

CL, you cant "dance away" the issues. You cant keep avoiding issues hoping they will magically resolve whether that is sexual intimacy, unhealthy patterns, unmet needs, cruel behaviour...

I am sorry but ballroom dancing (or any kind of dancing) cant replace an intimate relationship. I am sure it can strengthen one cause of the quality time spent together but it cant be the foundation of it. Sometimes, to me, an outsider, it seems you have it the other way around.

It also seems to me, your wife (although behaving like a selfish princess all the time) is more ready to deal with her issues than you are. I dont want to sound harsh but as a woman, I would definitely want more than a motivated-excellent dance partner. And yes, I agree, patience is not unlimited. For months you are focusing on dance routines and competitions and that is great (I love ballroom dancing myself, all the latin dances, especially mambo)to the point that sometimes I have caught myself wondering after reading your posts "ok, enough with dancing, what's going on with your M!!!!?".

I dont want to upset you, just offering another view.
Kalni

I would suggest that you read Passionate Marriage.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Opening Up - 07/26/11 02:16 PM
Very well-put, Kalni.

CL, you know I've been with you all along, and we're ALL pulling for you. But I agree with the others, above. It's time to stop forever changing your Subject lines on an internet message forum, and actually confront your wife on these difficult issues.

It's time to take some RISK, and lose the fear. I do completely understand why this is terrifying (I am a world-class conflict avoider/pleaser myself!). But I also understand that it will give you your best chance of success in gaining back a complete and fulfilling relationship with your wife.


Starsky
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: Opening Up - 07/26/11 02:44 PM
Bolero is cool, and perhaps ML is too large a step at this point but how about some real foreplay?

Like I said, how about nuzzling her neck? How about your hand around her waist and your crotch against her butt? SOMETHING.

Your wife is physical and sexual and I think would like both a more physical presence from you toward her and sex in general. I suspect, this is actually easier to do than you would ever imagine. Give her a little something to work with and I think, she will help you move forward.

Quote:
There must be smaller steps along the way.

Try just a little bit. The minimal amount of any kind of sexual/physical/foreplay type action you can muster the courage for and see what happens. Pure DB'ing. Experiment and watch for the results. If she doesn't eat you alive, she will at least be more agreeable the next day.

Remember what happened when you complimented her improving appearance? How might she react if you massaged her shoulders for a few minutes? How life threatening could that possibly be?

I went back to 2003 to start reading some of your sitch from the beginning.

My take away is this. You are a kind, concerned, thoughtful, gentle man, who for 8 years is unable or unwilling to give your wife what she seems to need in marriage.

You have earnestly addressed numerous peripheral issues but will not deal with the real issue.

It's a two way street and boy can she be a piece of work but from where I sit, a lot of her behavior is perhaps a reaction to feeling rejected and unwanted.

If I may be so blunt, the vagina is perhaps the most powerful force in the universe, can you imagine what that does to a woman's self esteem when her husband is uninterested in or refuses to make love with her? People act out when they are hurting. My feeling is that 80% of her nuttiness is based upon this....and probably another 10% is based upon having lived this way for so long, she doesn't know how to feel normal anymore.

I really do believe she desires intimacy, she wants to be taken by a man. The time has never been more right for manly action and a leap of faith.

As always, I wish you the best, good luck.
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/27/11 12:18 AM
Originally Posted By: Lanzo
Hi CL,

When she asks for a cuddle she is making herself vulnerable for you to take advantage. When she ridicules or embarrasses you she is looking for a “caveman” reaction from you, but when you follow your normal avoidance strategy she gets annoyed and banishes you to the spare room, (Beware I can see that one coming soon).

Take care and keep trying

Lanzo


Thanks. I underestimated the significance of the cuddle. I am still feeling the sting of her comment from last week in front of our dance teachers.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/27/11 12:25 AM
Originally Posted By: Kalni

CL, you cant "dance away" the issues. You cant keep avoiding issues hoping they will magically resolve whether that is sexual intimacy, unhealthy patterns, unmet needs, cruel behaviour...

I am sorry but ballroom dancing (or any kind of dancing) cant replace an intimate relationship. I am sure it can strengthen one cause of the quality time spent together but it cant be the foundation of it. Sometimes, to me, an outsider, it seems you have it the other way around.



Thanks. I was scolded recently by our dance teacher about my tunnel vision in our dance partnership. I think dancing in our R was an early way to establish connection and should be a stepping stone towards intimacy. The problem is I haven't been stepping.

CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/27/11 03:29 AM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309

CL, you know I've been with you all along, and we're ALL pulling for you.

It's time to take some RISK, and lose the fear.


Starsky


CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/27/11 03:33 AM
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet
Bolero is cool, and perhaps ML is too large a step at this point but how about some real foreplay?

I suspect, this is actually easier to do than you would ever imagine. Give her a little something to work with and I think, she will help you move forward.

Try just a little bit. The minimal amount of any kind of sexual/physical/foreplay type action you can muster the courage for and see what happens.

The time has never been more right for manly action and a leap of faith.



CL
Posted By: Lanzo Re: Opening Up - 07/27/11 08:11 AM
Hi CL,

In your own polite way you have acknowledged all of the comments passed on recently but I get the feeling that your answers are still deflecting away from the underlying issues.

Rather than spending time reflecting on the sting of you Ws’ comments I think she would accept a more forward response from you. ie you showing her some that she could feel something special if you did some horizontal dancing in the bedroom. Ok that maybe a step too far for you now, but a cuddle and a bit more is what she is looking for. Remember its not all about penetration, there are many ways to please a woman if you are willing to try.

I remember quoting to you sometime back “ A faint heart never won a fair damsel....” the sentiment is still the same now, you need to take that leap of faith to move forward.

Take care


Lanzo
Posted By: DownNotOut...yet Re: Opening Up - 07/27/11 01:59 PM
Quote:
I am still feeling the sting of her comment from last week in front of our dance teachers.
Instead of feeling the sting...why not consider, OK, she is giving me some clear feedback. She is letting me know what is missing, now I know what I need to do.
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/28/11 11:42 AM
Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet
OK, she is giving me some clear feedback. She is letting me know what is missing, now I know what I need to do.


CL
Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: Opening Up - 07/28/11 11:44 AM
Originally Posted By: Lanzo
Remember its not all about penetration, there are many ways to please a woman if you are willing to try.

, you need to take that leap of faith to move forward.

Take care


Lanzo


CL
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